November 1998 Gasification Archive

From 146942 at classic.msn.com Sun Nov 1 01:26:33 1998
From: 146942 at classic.msn.com (skip goebel)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:07:51 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Micro-economics
Message-ID: <UPMAIL01.199811010637260195@classic.msn.com>

The fact that I could use wood gas for cooking makes gasification
technology attractive. It appears more efficient than the steam system I
built with my students. The additional fuel processing cost and engine
rebuilding costs tip the scales in favor of steam power.
Someone suggested I do both! It's an intriguing idea. . . Let me
build a gasifier first, and I'll let you know how it works!

robert luis rabello (Not God!)
>>>>>>>>>
Ok Louis, lets talk turkey here.

I can do your V-8 thing here with new eq. for less than 10 grand. In fact, I
will lease the equipment to your school plus, we can do the heat exchange
thing for less than a grand.
How about this? I supply you with the Right Stuff, you simply assemble and
fabricate.....no machining, just bolt together.... and when your class is
done, the whole system goes to a mission project where it can be used by
missionaries or something like that????
BTW....I have made cheap feedwater preheaters from the water cooled condensers
used in ice machines. Large ones can be used for condensers too. Another
source especially if you go dual fluid system is to use the oil coolers off of
diesel engines. I bought a similar exchanger salvage from a HVAC place which
was an ammonia condenser.
Lastly, figure $1 a watt for new, commercial grade steam engine that uses
around 25 lbs/hp-hr. bet your turbine was at least 3 times that consumption.

wadda ya tink?
Skip Goebel
Sensible Steam
152 Von Goebels Lane
Branson, MO 65616 417 336 2869
www.geocities.com/researchtriangle/6362

ps...i sell a video blueprint on woodfired monotube boilers. You also might
check out Jan. 97 Backwoods Home Magazine and Oct. 98 of Homepower Magazine
for my extensive articles on monotube boiler with gasification unit from
Mother Earth News

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From LINVENT at aol.com Sun Nov 1 10:39:11 1998
From: LINVENT at aol.com (LINVENT@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:07:51 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Re: Heat & power
Message-ID: <eb06c10b.363c833c@aol.com>

Luis and skip,
How about this, we take cut logs, 2-3 ft long, other wood waste including
bark, mix with the paper and other wastes from the school, put into a
gasifier, run an IC engine as in take an old school bus gasoline engine, add a
pipe ahead of the carbureator to inject the producer gas, find a used farm pto
driven generator, hook up to the transmission on the school bus engine,
generate power to operate the school (at least part of it), and use the waste
radiator and exhaust heat for the buildings? Try >50% usable energy
efficiency.
By the way, I am using a used stainless ammonia chiller coil ($100) as a
boiler for the steam generation on the gasifier I am building. A used
hydraulic oil cooler for the freon chiller cooler, a used fin cooler for the
water cooling, a used($25) a-coil for the gas chilling and other used
equipment from various salvage yards for other components on the gasifier
system being built. Gasifiers can be built out of scrap also. We have Los
Alamos and Sandia and Kirtland AFB scrap to pick through down here. Used GC's
for $50-75.
As to the above gasifier, I will modify the one I mentioned earlier to handle
these materials on a continuous unmanned basis later on when this current unit
is completed. It will operate at 50-75 KWe range, however, the pto generator
will not usually be this large, but an induction motor will suffice if
connected to the grid.
This can be done for less than $10k if the scrounge labor is cheap enough.

Tom Taylor
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From LINVENT at aol.com Sun Nov 1 10:47:24 1998
From: LINVENT at aol.com (LINVENT@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:07:52 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Biomass PFBC vs. Gasification
Message-ID: <1f5a6517.363c8520@aol.com>

Gene,
I will forward by regular mail the financial, technical and other analysis to
support these statements.
Please provide me the approval from an air permitting agency and the
engineering company approval for the box and cyclone collector design which
your refer to and I will gladly support it. I believe the P in PFBC will make
the box a little bit more expensive.

Sincerely,

Tom Taylor
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From 146942 at classic.msn.com Sun Nov 1 11:44:26 1998
From: 146942 at classic.msn.com (skip goebel)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:07:52 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Re: Heat & power
Message-ID: <UPMAIL01.199811011655150010@classic.msn.com>

>From Skip:
Tom, may I suggest that you do not skimp on the generator end.
Brand new brushless alternators (two bearing) in the 20kw range are under
$2000. I also dont understand why you are using stainless steel.

For all who are considering doing this size stuff, let me reccomend you get
the following catalogs:

Surplus Center: 1-800-488-3407 they supply used and new gen stuff
Northern Hydraulics: 1-800-533-5545

Tom, and others may contact me direct

Skip Goebel
417 336 2869
146942@msn.com

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From boilrmkr at surfsouth.com Sun Nov 1 16:33:45 1998
From: boilrmkr at surfsouth.com (Gene Zebley)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:07:52 2004
Subject: GAS-L: EPA Permitting
In-Reply-To: <1f5a6517.363c8520@aol.com>
Message-ID: <363CD5B6.8276CB1F@surfsouth.com>

Dear Tom,

I've have been reading your recent posts and I'm impressed. We boilermakers love to make
things work with whatever may be available. Period. No moaning and groaning. Just get it
done.

LINVENT@aol.com wrote:

> Gene,
> I will forward by regular mail the financial, technical and other analysis to
> support these statements.

21971 HWY 319 South
Coolidge, GA 31738
Attn: Gene Zebley

> Please provide me the approval from an air permitting agency and the
> engineering company approval for the box and cyclone collector design which
> your refer to and I will gladly support it. I believe the P in PFBC will make
> the box a little bit more expensive.

The box and cyclone response was in reference to the quote below, not PFBC:

"One major aspect is that gasification process has a much smaller gas stream than
combustors so that the net gas clean up cost can be cheaper."

Although we use some of the technology which the group discusses, the bottom line is we
build biomass gas combustion systems for a living. If we can get the same end product
with cheaper, more reliable technology we'd be all over it. However, in the world as we
know it today (over 450 systems operating) the EPA has put a "little" ceiling of
30,000,000 BTU input for wood fired boiler systems. This means we can meet particulate
emission requirements up to this figure using dual multiclone collectors (9" & 6" tubes)
on boilers with outputs up to 600 BHP with no problem. Once that BTU input total is
exceeded and depending on the local EPA requirements, a scrubber or ESP may be required.
We have installed many multiple 600 BHP units as a result of this one requirement.

As far as evidence goes, I'd could probably get you a copy of one of our customers'
operating permits. Only the customers with more money than brains bring in an engineering
firm to help with the permitting as we provide our customers with all the technical data
necessary (except location specific information) to fill out the forms and gain
acceptance. My father (semi-retired) handles this for our company and is constantly
telling me about "environmental engineers" that convince customers that successful
applications must be made by an engineer. They then call my Dad for the information, put
the information in the right blanks of the form (hopefully) and charge the customer as
much as $10,000. It makes Dad so sick, he's ready to start consulting.

Look forward to reviewing your data.

Best regards,
Gene

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From james at sri.org.au Sun Nov 1 17:01:46 1998
From: james at sri.org.au (James Joyce)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:07:52 2004
Subject: GAS-L: USMC Project/thanx
Message-ID: <19981102081300james@jj_lap.sri.org.au>

> In a message dated 10/31/98 4:47:56AM,
> James Joyce, in sunny Australia, wrote:
> <<
> In the meantime, keep making those boilers and microturbines Skip
> ....
> I hope to have one for myself one day (afterall I'll need something
> to
> charge up my electric car ;-)
> >>
> James,
> Surely you will use PV modules for battery charging?
>
> David McIlveen-Wright
> Gasification List SPONSORS and ARCHIVES
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>

A mix actually, solar, wind and some form of heat engine. Solar and
wind alone just simply cost to much for a vehicle charging operation on
their own ... OK if $ are no object. I have found solar an excellent
choice for powering lighting (with a pedal generator as backup for
extended rainy periods).

A solar powered pyrolyser / gasifier would be attractive if Dale
Costich can crack that one for us.

James Joyce
Engineer
Sugar Research Institute
Mackay Australia
ph. (07) 4952 7698
intl ph. INTL + 61 7 4952 7600
fax (07) 4952 1734
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From james at sri.org.au Sun Nov 1 17:15:00 1998
From: james at sri.org.au (James Joyce)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:07:52 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Nitrogen
Message-ID: <19981102082617james@jj_lap.sri.org.au>

> isn't the ammonia content strongly related to the sugar content of
> the fuel?
> skip
>
> Gasification List SPONSORS and ARCHIVES
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>

???? how skip ? Sugar is a carbohyrdrate, ie. no nitrogen on board.
Perhaps if a protein rich fuel was used, or molasses, which was
disposed of in sugar mill boilers on occassions many years ago ...
makes one shudder at the waste doesn't it. Unless you are suggesting
that in an inefficient sugar mill where the sugar extraction is poor,
that the protein extraction will also be poor, thereby leaving
significant amounts of nitrogen to go to the boilers ... in that case
you may be right, but even then the amount of nitrogen involved is
small compared to many coals.

The mill I used to work at burned plenty of sugar, in the form of 2%
sugar left in the bagasse after the extraction process (20,000 tonnes
of sugar per year !), which was then used to fire the boilers ... no
suggestion of any NOx problem there (plenty of particulates though ...
but that's another story).

From arnt at c2i.net Sun Nov 1 18:08:56 1998
From: arnt at c2i.net (Arnt Karlsen)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:07:52 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Micro-economics
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19981031235011.0067e4f0@popserver.uniserve.com>
Message-ID: <363CD8F7.C2D99CA4@c2i.net>

..we are getting practical here :-)

robert luis rabello wrote: <snip>

> Processing the fuel is an additional expense. The wood I burn in my
> stove is cut with a chainsaw and is too big for a gasifier, I haven't found
> a local source of free, processed biomass, so I'd have to buy mill ends at
> $300/100 cords. (That's a delivered price in U.S. funds, and it SEEMS
> inexpensive. . .)

..$300/100 cords, how is that in $ per cu meter?
<snip>

> So here's the rub, as I understand it: Building a "used V-8" for
> use with wood gas will cost no less than $1500 for someone who knows how to
> buy parts and build the engine personally.

..for that kind of price, I'd have the rebuilder modify the valve guide system so
it'll last as long as the rest of the engine, of go for another brand of engine.
Aero engines, such as Lycoming and Continental's are *certified* to last typically
2000 hours between major overhaul. I am surprised to learn small block Chevy valve
guides last as little as 1000 hours, even Lada's last longer...

> Since the first thing to go on a small
> block
> Chevy is usually the valve guides, and since these wear out at roughly 100
> 000 kms, I'm figuring about 1 000 hours of use is reasonable before I'd have
> to pull the cylinder heads for maintenance. I'd find it hard to believe I'd
> use 1 000 hours of genset time in a single year. I can slap a set of
> reconditioned heads on an engine for about $300, which adds .03 to any
> electricity I produce--assuming electricity is the only use for my gasified
> fuel.

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From arnt at c2i.net Sun Nov 1 18:08:58 1998
From: arnt at c2i.net (Arnt Karlsen)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:07:52 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Re: Heat & power
In-Reply-To: <eb06c10b.363c833c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <363CEBE0.DED34C31@c2i.net>

..I like this, we are getting practical here :-)

LINVENT@aol.com wrote:
Luis and skip,
How about this, we take
cut logs, 2-3 ft long, other wood waste including
bark, mix with the paper and other wastes from the school, put into
a
gasifier, run an IC engine as in take an old school bus gasoline engine,
add a
pipe ahead of the carbureator to inject the producer gas, find a used
farm pto
driven generator, hook up to the transmission on the school bus engine,
generate power to operate the school (at least part of it), and use
the waste
radiator and exhaust heat for the buildings? Try >50% usable
energy
efficiency.
..collect half of the waste heat, and you're there.

..you might want to consider pressurizing and using the engine cooling
engine jacket as a boiler: Usually, the operating temperature is kept below
the coolant (water) temperature to keep coolant pressure in a reasonable
range for the common radiator built out of thin sheet metal. Disregarding
this, the limiting factor becomes cracking of lubricant additives an the
lubricant itself, this typically start in the 120-150oC range,
where steam pressure would be around one to 3.7 barg, ie; 14 - 54 psig,
before the exhaust boiler...

..on stainless steel, I had a rather amusing conversation with one of
the titanium gurus at the ONS 96 fair here in Stavanger:
I was looking around for advice on good material for piping gas out
of gasifiers.
Discussing the process parameters to guestimate a reasonable life expectancy
for titanium piping, went like: "1000-1200 oC." "No problem."
"Up to 30% mass flow is ash and carbon dust." "No problem." "Reducing environment,
ie; no oxygen in the gas" "10 minutes."
He adviced mild steel would be both the best, and the most cost effective
material to use, as stainless steel, titanium etc require exposure to oxygen
to retain their oxide surface layer, which actually protects the underlying
material. Particle impact erode the surface, and in reducing environment,
oxygen is not available to recover this oxide layer hole.
By the
way, I am using a used stainless ammonia chiller coil ($100) as a
boiler for the steam generation on the gasifier I am building.
A used
hydraulic oil cooler for the freon chiller cooler, a used fin cooler
for the
water cooling, a used($25) a-coil for the gas chilling and other used
equipment from various salvage yards for other components on the gasifier
system being built. Gasifiers can be built out of scrap also.
We have Los
Alamos and Sandia and Kirtland AFB scrap to pick through down here.
Used GC's
for $50-75.
As to the above gasifier,
I will modify the one I mentioned earlier to handle
these materials on a continuous unmanned basis later on when this current
unit
is completed. It will operate at 50-75 KWe range, however, the
pto generator
will not usually be this large, but an induction motor will suffice
if
connected to the grid.
This can be done for less
than $10k if the scrounge labor is cheap enough.

From rabello at uniserve.com Mon Nov 2 00:36:35 1998
From: rabello at uniserve.com (robert luis rabello)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:07:52 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Biomass, Valve Guides and B.C.
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19981102054808.0067ecc4@popserver.uniserve.com>

Thank-you for the compliments and practical suggestions! I spend
more time than I like to admit poking through the scrap heaps in the local
industrial areas, and I'll start looking for heat exchange equipment before
I begin a gasification or steam project.

The woodstove experiment I described took place three years ago in
Terrace, B.C.--a town roughly fifteen hours north of Vancouver by car. (I
taught there for two years before moving down to Vancouver.) Since we have
low insolation here in the Northwest, micro hydro, wind and biomass appear
to be the best candidates for renewable energy production. (In examining
biological processes, especially those used by microorganisms, I find that
God has already figured out much of what we try to reinvent.)

I've written before that I don't like burning biomass--it seems
wasteful to me and I don't like what it puts into the air. If any of you
can recommend informative reading on gasifying wood to producing charcoal,
or suggest creative ways to deal with my fuel processing problem (I'm
burning hardwood pallets used to ship rock crusher cones from China--a waste
fuel that is not suitable for gasification because of the large size of the
pieces.), gasification would look a lot more appealing to me. (By the way,
I wish I could tell you the metric measurements for mill ends. The price I
quoted came from a newspaper in Bellingham, Washington. In Canada, there's
a curious reluctance to utilize metric measurements among most people I've
encountered--even children. I have a theory about this, but that's another
matter!)

As for small block Chevy valve guides, the 100 000 km figure I
quoted comes from my experience with factory, cast-iron valve guides and
gasoline fuel. This is the point at which oil burning becomes significant.
The actual running time for a vehicle engine before valve guide replacement
is necessary is probably greater than 1000 hours. (But pessimism is my
nature. . .)

Running propane in my current car should result in less wear, as
propane does not dissolve on the cylinder walls and end up in the oil. (My
engine oil still looks like honey when I change it. . .) This should also
be true of fuel from a gasifier, but I have no experience to draw from in
this regard. As a solution to this problem, I installed sintered bronze
valve guides in my current engine, and will wait to see if the problem
occurs on schedule.

According to what I've read, a downdraft gasifier should produce
fuel that is low in tar. Am I correct in assuming that this should reduce
valve deposits? How much gas scrubbing is necessary to achieve a fuel with
a valve deposition rate similar to gasoline?

My current project is a Siemens-style fluidyne heat engine made from
common pipe. It uses liquid pistons and pumps water quite nicely, though it
has a heat-exchange problem that keeps me awake at night. (Using pipe
limits my heat exchange options. Right now, I'm working on a copper tube
within another copper tube. The outer tube will be filled with hot water
from my woodstove. The inner tube with air, which is the working gas.) The
multi-cylinder Siemens design avoids the gravity-powered rpm limitations of
conventional fluidynes, but I'm not sure that my valving arrangement will
pump water. If it works, I'll hook it up to a power-steering pump to
generate rotational torque. If not, the conventional fluidyne can circulate
woodstove, gasifier or boiler water quite effectively using waste heat.

Other biological energy processes interest me and I've experimented
with a few of them. If any of you are interested, please contact me
directly. (I don't want to clog this forum with unrelated information.)

robert luis rabello
VisionWorks Communications

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From james at sri.org.au Mon Nov 2 02:07:32 1998
From: james at sri.org.au (James Joyce)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:07:52 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Biomass PFBC vs. Gasification
Message-ID: <19981102171719james@jj_lap.sri.org.au>

Tom Taylor wrote
> Overcoming the inert char reaction with higher rank coals can be
> greatly enhanced with the use of high temperature steam which
> produces carbon monoxide and hydrogen the primary combustion
> components of gasification process and reacts rather quickly with
> char.

Steam and CO2 are of course the traditional gasification agents for
char (and sometimes hydrogen for special applications... but who has
any hydrogen to spare). In any event these reactions are still 10-1000
times slower than combustion, depending on pressure, char reactivity
and operating temperature.

In the case of biomass gasification, the steam is usually there anyway,
unless the biomass was completely dried out before entering the
gasifier ... which seems a silly thing to do when you need some H2O to
react with the char. The trick in this case is not to add anymore H2O
than is required to gasify the char; otherwise you are just diluting
your product gas.

> I am of the opinion that higher than 45% overall efficiency with >
heat recovery on the prime mover is feasible. If capital cost is not >
an issue, the low temperature organic rankine cycle can be added for >
more recovery.

I'm glad to hear someone mention the organic Rankine cycle ... seems
like a good way of getting a bit more out of what would otherwise be
waste heat .... I have no idea what the associated costs are, do you
have any knowledge of this ?

Is anyone out there using an organic Rankine cycle ?

> One major aspect is that gasification process has a much smaller
> gas stream than combustors so that the net gas clean up cost can be
> cheaper.

True, I forgot to explicitly mention this advantage. This is also one
of the advantages of oygen or enriched air gasification over air-blown
gasification.

Regards,

James Joyce
Engineer
Sugar Research Institute
Mackay Australia
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From 146942 at classic.msn.com Mon Nov 2 08:47:21 1998
From: 146942 at classic.msn.com (skip goebel)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:07:52 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Biomass PFBC vs. Gasification
Message-ID: <UPMAIL01.199811021358050619@classic.msn.com>

from Skip Goebel

Can anyone tell me why the pursuit of plastics is not done in gasification?
It seems that it was once done this way, and it could be the answer to
playing with fire at a profit. (forget electricity)
What are the catalysts and how are they used?
I have heard that silver and copper are used but that is so simple that
everyone would already be doing it.

Let's hear it!
thanx
skip

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From LINVENT at aol.com Mon Nov 2 11:30:43 1998
From: LINVENT at aol.com (LINVENT@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:07:52 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Re:Plastics in gasification
Message-ID: <7b1b076.363de0d9@aol.com>

Skip,
Plastics are mostly volatile components, very little fixed carbon, and most
gasifiers will plug up on the volatile components. The difference between
high volatile and low volatile coal will make a substantial difference in the
gasification system, as an example.
They gasify very well. I have had them either alone or mixed with paper in my
system. The gas quality is quite high. PVC chlorine can be a problem,
however, if managed correctly will not bother things too much.
We have also run 30% moisture paint sludge in our system. Try that in a
downdraft unit. PPG was very interested technically but couldn't put their
arms around the marketing arrangements. PPG's chief process engineer said it
was the most interesting demonstration she had ever been to. 14" of snow on
the ground, frozen paint sludge and a clear burning flame after a couple of
hours of snow removal and taking the paint out of sealed drums with a pick and
feeding the frozen ice and paint blocks into the feeder by hand.
I have investigated catalysis for a variety of applications including diesel,
methanol, ethanol, DME production and find that the commercial boys have
covered the valuable mixed of copper, zinc, cobalt, moly, with a layer of
patents and ifyou wish to do the R&D to circumvent the patents, go for it.
Common catalysts are usable which either are expired or public info are less
expensive and will work for some areas, but are not as efficient as the more
refined developed ones. I presume this is some of an answer to your question
as to patents.
Sincerely,

Tom Taylor
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From LINVENT at aol.com Mon Nov 2 11:41:14 1998
From: LINVENT at aol.com (LINVENT@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:07:52 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Re:Steam, Organic rankine
Message-ID: <b4490b5.363de34d@aol.com>

James Joyce,
There is or was an Israeli company which made large scale organic rankine
cycle facilities. I have their brochures in my files somewhere. Sandia
National Labs had built a solar 25KWe powered toluene irrigation well
demonstration plant east of Albuquerque about 45 miles. It caught fire and had
innumerable problems such as rotating the linear dish collectors to follow the
sun had seal leaks. The insulated hot oil tanks were very large. The prime
mover is still sitting in a scrap yard here and will run on toluene or natural
gas with a 35KWe turbine driven generator and all of the controls. I will pay
the $600 for the unit when it is opportune.
One of the concerns with steam or water contained in the biomass is that in
most systems, the drying and residence time of the steam during the heating
cycle is so short that the moisture is long gone by the time the materials get
up to gasification temperature. It is going into the output gas anyhow, and
condensing it and reusing it is the most sensible manner to use it. This very
subtle aspect is very important. Residence time is the key to the entire
process.
Most moisture will be removed from a gas stream by the time it gets to room
temperature. Further removal increases it's heating value anyhow,
particularly in an internal combustion engine.

Thanks for the comments. I will go into the Rankine process more when we
approach the commercial application of it. I have a design for a prime
mover/generator with basically one moving part.
Sincerely,

Leland T. Taylor
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From Riccardo.Florio at mi.infn.it Mon Nov 2 12:16:23 1998
From: Riccardo.Florio at mi.infn.it (Riccardo Florio)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:07:52 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Informations about Plasma Gasification
Message-ID: <199811021716.MAA23799@solstice.crest.org>

Dear Sir,
my name is Riccardo Florio and I work in the = Laboratory for Plasmas
Industrial Applications of the Physics Dept. of the University = of
Milan, Italy.
Right now I am doing an investigation about the = worldwide state of the
art of waste plasma treatment and = I wondered if you could suggest me some
sites where = I can download some informations about Plasma
Gasification. I red your announcememnt about the book/report,
"EVALAUATION OF = GASIFICATION AND NOVEL THERMAL PROCESSES FOR THE
TREATMENT OF MUNICIPAL SOLID = WASTE", by W. R. Niessen, C. H. Marks,
and R. E. Sommerladof and I'd like to = know if it is possible to see
somewhere the index of the report or, better, if = it is possible to
receive a copy of the report in the University.

Thank you for your cooperation.

Best Regards

Riccardo = Florio
LAIP
Università degli Studi di Milano
Dipartimento di Fisica, Sez. Plasmi
Via = Celoria 16, 20133 Milano
Italia

e-mail:

florio@mi.infn.it
Pagina Web:

http://159.149.= 47.3/Sezioni/Plasmi/Laip/laip.htm

From 146942 at classic.msn.com Mon Nov 2 12:45:54 1998
From: 146942 at classic.msn.com (skip goebel)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:07:52 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Re:Plastics in gasification
Message-ID: <UPMAIL01.199811021756530172@classic.msn.com>

>From Skip:

>>>>>>
I have investigated catalysis for a variety of applications including diesel,
methanol, ethanol, DME production and find that the commercial boys have
covered the valuable mixed of copper, zinc, cobalt, moly, with a layer of
patents and ifyou wish to do the R&D to circumvent the patents, go for it.
Common catalysts are usable which either are expired or public info are less
expensive and will work for some areas, but are not as efficient as the more
refined developed ones. I presume this is some of an answer to your question
as to patents.
>>>>>
I dont see the problem in adding carbon. It seems to me that making
something burn is not the problem, doing it at a profit is. I figured that
plastic might be the answer in that direction. The fact that there is patents
out there show that not only does this work, but we will never see it. (makes
u wonder if we r wastin' time)
I worked at a refinery for a short time and they made 'base' there which was
worth $60 a gallon. I dont know if there was catalyst if any but I know that
steam was part of the very simple process. I also read in the encyclopedia
that 'bakelite' was made by wood gasification 100 years ago. That is all I
know but maybe the bank wants something besides electricity to hear about.
If I am on the wrong track here, then what about formaldehyde?
Skip

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From michael.schwerin at internetMCI.com Mon Nov 2 13:11:57 1998
From: michael.schwerin at internetMCI.com (Michael Schwerin)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:07:52 2004
Subject: GAS-L: hypothetical case
Message-ID: <0F1T00DAT4EHHB@PM03SM.PMM.CW.NET>

Let's say the objective were to gasify wood at an industrial scale to
produce syngas for chemical conversion (not combustion) with a minimum of
N2, CO2 or H20 dilution with reasonable thermal efficiencies, simple
operation and low capital cost. Let's say cheap natural gas were available
for combustion. Assuming the highest value product is CO produced from the
wood (not from methane, which in this case we can only use as an energy,
not a carbon or hydrogen source) and therefore that we want to convert as
much of the carbon in the biomass to CO, no liquids, and as little char as
possible. Also, our syngas product needs to be cooled to near ambient
temperature at less than 5 atmosphere pressure.

What's wrong with the following solution?:
--single fluidized bed reactor
--indirectly heated by firing natural gas (avoids consuming biomass as
energy source and avoids dilution of syngas by combustion products)
--fluidizing agent is a slip stream of product gas and possibly steam
--deep reaction zone to allow relatively low operating temperatures and use
of char as gasification catalyst to crack tars
--relatively long residence time to reduce solids to ash and "blow through"
char fines
--cyclone removal of char fines and particulates
--ash removal just above bed plate
--heat from combustor transferred to bed by passing exhaust gases through
heat exchange tubes in reactor above bed plate
--after reactor, combustion exhaust preheats combustion air and dries wood
feed or raises steam
--condenser to cool and dewater product gas
--other scrubbing?

I'm an amateur but my skin is thick and the case could be real, so let me
have it!

Thanks in advance for your comments.

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From michael.schwerin at internetMCI.com Mon Nov 2 13:17:45 1998
From: michael.schwerin at internetMCI.com (Michael Schwerin)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:07:52 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Informations about Plasma Gasification
Message-ID: <0F1T00N1T4OF0G@PM04SM.PMM.CW.NET>

Riccardo:

FYI, the November 98 issue of Remote Gas Strategies published by Zeus
Development Corp highlights two efforts to commercialize plasma
technologies to reform methane. Article is titled "Competing Plasma
Technologies Advance to Demonstration". Mention is made of ability of
plasma arc processes to convert not just methane but also CO2 into syngas.

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From REEDTB at compuserve.com Tue Nov 3 08:22:05 1998
From: REEDTB at compuserve.com (Tom Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:07:52 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Gone a month
Message-ID: <199811030833_MC2-5EE9-57C@compuserve.com>

Thomas B. Reed: The Biomass Energy Foundation
1810 Smith Rd., Golden, CO 80401
303 278 0558V; 303 278 0560F
E-mail: reedtb@compuserve.com

Dear Gasification and Stoves:

I am taking a trip with Robb Walt of Community Power Corp. to India and the
Philippines to investigate gasifiers and stoves. I will be gone (with
Thanksgiving in Long Beach) until Nov. 1. I hate to think how much Email
I'll miss.

Until I return, Esteban Chornet is in charge of GASIFICATION.

Your Moderator, TOM
REED

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From LINVENT at aol.com Tue Nov 3 10:24:32 1998
From: LINVENT at aol.com (LINVENT@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:07:52 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Re: Plasma
Message-ID: <563228db.363f2256@aol.com>

Mike,
Plasma is an absurd power consumer.
Tom Taylor
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From LINVENT at aol.com Tue Nov 3 10:35:45 1998
From: LINVENT at aol.com (LINVENT@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:07:52 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Re:Plastics in gasification
Message-ID: <b61447e8.363f257a@aol.com>

Skip,
Remember, I said the most efficient catalysts were patented. That does not
mean that other ones are usable with less efficiency and the process would
work economically with negative valued feedstocks.
We are doing precisely this.
Mike,
In relation to the innumerable questions you mentioned about catalysis, all
require a large detail to go into and are good questions. The answers require
lots of time to think out to be as correct as possible.

Sincerely.

Tom Taylor
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From boilrmkr at surfsouth.com Wed Nov 4 15:29:38 1998
From: boilrmkr at surfsouth.com (Gene Zebley)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:07:52 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Recent biomass and gasification news
Message-ID: <3640BB2F.620F4657@surfsouth.com>

http://news.poweronline.com/steve/19981103-1749.html#congress

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From VHarris001 at aol.com Wed Nov 4 20:33:55 1998
From: VHarris001 at aol.com (VHarris001@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:07:52 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Plastics in gasification
Message-ID: <ce206a89.36410310@aol.com>

Dear Tom Taylor,
Can you be more specific on the problems associated with gasification of
plastics? Why do they cause gasifiers to plug up? Are higher temperatures
required to gasify plastics? Can plastics be gasified in downdraft mode? Do
some of them melt and pool at the bottom of the gasifier? Does an ash bed,
such as that from MSW gasification, help gasify plastics, say by providing a
solid surface to act as a "wick" for the plastics?

Thanks,
Vern Harris
VHarris001@aol.com

In a message dated 11/2/98 11:46:27 AM Eastern Standard Time, LINVENT@aol.com
writes:

> Plastics are mostly volatile components, very little fixed carbon, and most
> gasifiers will plug up on the volatile components. The difference between
> high volatile and low volatile coal will make a substantial difference in
> the
> gasification system, as an example.
> They gasify very well. I have had them either alone or mixed with paper in
> my
> system. The gas quality is quite high. PVC chlorine can be a problem,
> however, if managed correctly will not bother things too much.
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From gallego at dglnet.com.br Thu Nov 5 01:39:44 1998
From: gallego at dglnet.com.br (Gallego_dgl)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:07:52 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Research about black liquor gasification
Message-ID: <199811050639.BAA24844@solstice.crest.org>

My name is Antonio Gallego, and I'd = like to make a research about
Cogeneration Systems for Black Liquor Gasification in = the Pulp and Paper
Industry, and than, Is it possible you indicate a bibliography = about this
references about this subject.

Yours sincerely,

Antonio Gallego
e-mail: agallego@unimep.br

From gallego at dglnet.com.br Thu Nov 5 18:58:00 1998
From: gallego at dglnet.com.br (Gallego_dgl)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:07:52 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Research about black liquor gasification
Message-ID: <199811052358.SAA15976@solstice.crest.org>

From tmiles at teleport.com Thu Nov 5 20:22:36 1998
From: tmiles at teleport.com (Tom Miles)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:07:52 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Research about black liquor gasification
In-Reply-To: <199811052358.SAA15976@solstice.crest.org>
Message-ID: <199811060122.UAA21953@solstice.crest.org>

Antonio (o gallego),

For a Good overview:

Eric D. Larson and Delmar R. Raymond, 1997, "Commercializing Black Liquor and
Biomass Gasifier/Gas Turbine Technology", TAPPI Vol.80:No.12 December.

Also look at:

TAPPI <http://www.tappi.org />http://www.tappi.org Search "black liquor
gasification" for ~24 hits.

Institute of Paper Science and Technology
<http://www.ipst.edu />http://www.ipst.edu Search datbases for 250+ hits
including papers fom a recent conference.

Tchau,

Tom Miles

At 02:32 AM 11/5/98 -0200, Gallego_dgl wrote:
>
> My name is Antonio Gallego, and I'd ike to make a research about
Cogeneration
> Systems for Black Liquor Gasification in he Pulp and Paper Industry, and
> than, Is it possible you indicate a bibliography bout this references about
> this subject. Yours sincerely, Antonio Gallego e-mail:
> <3d.htm>agallego@unimep.br ------

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thomas R. Miles tmiles@teleport.com
Technical Consultants, Inc. Tel (503) 292-0107/646-1198
1470 SW Woodward Way Fax (503) 605-0208
Portland, Oregon, USA 97225

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Antonio (o gallego),

For a Good overview:

Eric D. Larson and Delmar R. Raymond, 1997, "Commercializing Black Liquor and
Biomass Gasifier/Gas Turbine Technology", TAPPI Vol.80:No.12 December.

Also look at:

TAPPI <http://www.tappi.org />http://www.tappi.org Search "black liquor
gasification" for ~24 hits.

Institute of Paper Science and Technology
<http://www.ipst.edu />http://www.ipst.edu Search datbases for 250+ hits
including papers fom a recent conference.

Tchau,

Tom Miles

From Murat.Dogru at newcastle.ac.uk Sat Nov 7 08:10:21 1998
From: Murat.Dogru at newcastle.ac.uk (Murat DOGRU)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:07:52 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Big Scale Downdraft
Message-ID: <199811071322.NAA25847@cheviot.ncl.ac.uk>

Dear all,

Are there anybody operating any downdraft gasification systems with a
capacity of 50 tons/hr sewage sludge gasification or using other
biomass ?
If there is non, what is the maximum scale for downdraft gasifiers ?
I know for a fact that downdraft is difficult to scale it up, I like
to know what is the biggest downdraft in the earth at the present ?

Regards

M.Dogru
University of Newcastle
UK.
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From LINVENT at aol.com Sat Nov 7 12:09:03 1998
From: LINVENT at aol.com (LINVENT@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:07:52 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Big Scale Downdraft
Message-ID: <8f3d096e.3644814e@aol.com>

Mr. M. Dogru,
The largest downdraft unit I am aware of was based upon Dr. Reed and
Grabowski's work and was I believe 40MWT, a specialized design using oxygen
and a distributed injection mode.
It was funded by a consortium and had problems with the grate overheating and
was shut down. It may still be in place.
One item which excludes it from the request is it was only used on wood, and
I am not sure that it would run on the materials which you indicated. When
Dr. Reed returns, you may wish to ask him for particulars.

Tom Taylor
Thermogenics
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From Taurgon at aol.com Sun Nov 8 16:29:16 1998
From: Taurgon at aol.com (Taurgon@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:07:52 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Transportation by Wood
Message-ID: <2668c2f7.3646054a@aol.com>

Hi
I can remember several years back, a team of engineers built a Datsun Pickup
truck with a wood gasification unit fo power it, similar to experiments done
by the Germans during WW2. As I recall, it worked. Now, however, I can not
locate any information on wood gasification in this context. Do you happen to
know if there is any information on how to do it?
Thanks for your help.
Dave Evans
Taurgon@aol.com

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From dschmidt at eerc.und.nodak.edu Mon Nov 9 08:46:27 1998
From: dschmidt at eerc.und.nodak.edu (Schmidt, Darren)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:07:52 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Big Scale Downdraft
Message-ID: <4106288187B3D111A09A000083A82DF01E658B@undeerc.eerc.und.NoDak.edu>

Current EPA project: 1MWe downdraft gasifier IC engine system.
Camp Lejeune, NC, USA 1100 scfm product gas @ 150 Btu/scf
2000 lb/hr wood feed @ 10% moisture

-----Original Message-----
From: Murat DOGRU [mailto:Murat.Dogru@newcastle.ac.uk]
Sent: Saturday, November 07, 1998 7:14 AM
To: gasification@crest.org
Cc: Murat.Dogru@newcastle.ac.uk
Subject: GAS-L: Big Scale Downdraft

Dear all,

Regards

M.Dogru
University of Newcastle
UK.
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From paulh at phoenix.Princeton.EDU Mon Nov 9 12:04:54 1998
From: paulh at phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Paul M. Henderick)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:07:52 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Wet scrubbing and alkali removal; alkali nature
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.03.9811091204220.20883-100000@yuma.princeton.edu>

Dear all,

Is it fair to say that wet scrubbing can provide essentially complete
alkali removal from a producer gas stream? (i.e. enough to keep a gas
turbine happy)

Does anyone know the forms/compounds in which alkalis occur in gas from a
downdraft gasifier? So often in the literature they are referred to
simply as alkalis. Perhaps the true nature of their occurrence is still a
bit of an unknown?

-Paul

>->->->->->->->->->->->->->->->->->->->->->->->->->->->->
Paul Henderick
Center for Energy and Environmental Studies (CEES)
Princeton University
The Engineering Quadrangle
P.O. Box CN5263
Princeton, NJ 08544-5263

paulh@princeton.edu
phone (609) 258-6260
FAX (609) 258-3661
<-<-<-<-<-<-<-<-<-<-<-<-<-<-<-<-<-<-<-<-<-<-<-<-<-<-<-<-<

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From arnt at c2i.net Mon Nov 9 16:12:01 1998
From: arnt at c2i.net (Arnt Karlsen)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:07:52 2004
Subject: GAS-L: ..back online...
Message-ID: <36475C9D.D78CFB43@c2i.net>

..sorry about no response, I'm back online now, toasted modem on v90
upgrade...

/Arnt

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From LINVENT at aol.com Mon Nov 9 17:22:52 1998
From: LINVENT at aol.com (LINVENT@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:07:52 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Wet scrubbing and alkali removal; alkali nature
Message-ID: <4065b7a2.36476dc5@aol.com>

Paul,
In response to your question about alkali elements, there are only certain
ones which will be evolved from biomass. Notably, potash and calcium, sodium,
and to a minor extent, magnesium.
These as the strongest alkali forms are hydroxides which are formed when
oxides of Ca, K, etc. meet water. Most of the hydroxides are water soluble
except for calcium and magnesium which is a real problem. These are very
corrosive and adhering to surfaces. The exact physical damage to turbines is
probably physical erosion due to abrasion, and some chemical damage, however,
the materials of turbine construction are generally resistant to chemical
attack. Small quantities adhering to the surface can create serious
imbalances which will destroy the turbine.
Alkali metals are also found with acids in biomass yields. Acetic acid from
biomass such as wood will constitute a portion of the liquid yield. Washing
the gas stream will not remove both from my experience. The liquids from gas
cleaning are acidic. The other question is why they don't neutralize each
other? The answer is probably that they do not meet equilibrium for
neutralization.
High temperature gasifier output temperature increases the alkali yield.
I am interested in other comments about this question.

Sincerely,

Leland T. Taylor
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From arnt at c2i.net Mon Nov 9 18:47:49 1998
From: arnt at c2i.net (Arnt Karlsen)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:07:52 2004
Subject: GAS-L: hypothetical case
In-Reply-To: <0F1T00DAT4EHHB@PM03SM.PMM.CW.NET>
Message-ID: <364780E7.482D30E3@c2i.net>

Hi Michael,

Michael Schwerin wrote:
Let's say the objective were to gasify wood at an
industrial scale to
produce syngas for chemical conversion (not combustion) with a minimum
of
N2, CO2 or H20 dilution with reasonable thermal efficiencies, simple
operation and low capital cost. Let's say cheap natural gas were
available
for combustion. Assuming the highest value product is CO produced
from the
wood (not from methane, which in this case we can only use as an energy,
not a carbon or hydrogen source)
..why do you not want to produce CO from methane?(Here, the CO source would
be methane + wood, and
wood would be the catalyst charcoal source.
Solid Carbon catalyse CO production.)
and therefore that we want to convert as
much of the carbon in the biomass to CO, no liquids, and as little
char as
possible. Also, our syngas product needs to be cooled to near
ambient
temperature at less than 5 atmosphere pressure.

What's wrong with the following solution?:
--single fluidized bed reactor
..lots of tar and tarry dust to remove from gas.
--indirectly heated by firing natural gas (avoids
consuming biomass as
energy source and avoids dilution of syngas by combustion products)

--fluidizing agent is a slip stream of product gas
and possibly steam
..nothing. These are 2 good ideas.
--deep reaction zone to allow relatively low operating
temperatures and use
of char as gasification catalyst to crack tars
..bad idea, this gives you reoxidation of CO into CO2. Keep
temperatureabove 950oC and pressure near ambient, to avoid CO
loss, or prepare to
pay dearly for exotic catalysts.
--relatively long residence time to reduce solids
to ash and "blow through"
char fines
..done in a cyclone, this is a good idea.
--cyclone removal of char fines and particulates
..first, remove all tar from gas, or keep the cyclone hot.
--ash removal just above bed plate
..why and how? I'd take it from the cyclone cone pipe...
--heat from combustor transferred to bed by passing
exhaust gases through
heat exchange tubes in reactor above bed plate
--after reactor, combustion exhaust preheats combustion air and dries
wood
feed or raises steam
--condenser to cool and dewater product gas
..good ideas. You also might consider recycling dusty and tarry gas from
the hot cyclone cone pipe, mix with combustion air (burning off the tar)
and blow the bed hotter. Expansion also cool gas and steam, can be done
thru' turbines or choke valves.
--other scrubbing?
..check out other-than-water scrubbing liquids, wet cyclones, membranes
etc.
I'm an amateur but my skin is thick and the case
could be real, so let me
have it!
..welcome to the crowd. We all started out green, and myself, I still havent
made my first penny on gasification.

KR f Arnt

From VHarris001 at aol.com Mon Nov 9 21:38:27 1998
From: VHarris001 at aol.com (VHarris001@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:07:52 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Plastic pyrolysis
Message-ID: <4bb09563.3647a9ba@aol.com>

For those of you interested, you can read an analysis of mixed household
plastic pyrolysis at the following web page:

http://www.cilea.it/~pierucci/94.htm

Vern Harris
VHarris001@aol.com
Gasification List SPONSORS and ARCHIVES
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From VHarris001 at aol.com Mon Nov 9 21:50:37 1998
From: VHarris001 at aol.com (VHarris001@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:07:52 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Plastic pyrolysis
Message-ID: <2bcd68bb.3647ac4c@aol.com>

OOPS, I forgot to ask . . Does anyone have information about the behavior of
plastics during gasification of biomass? For instance during pyrolysis shown
below, the plastics primarily pyrolize to liquids. During gasification, will
the plastics gasify quickly after the liquid state, or do they run down into
the biomass (especially during downdraft)? How hot must the gasification
process be in order to gasify the plastics for use in IC engines? Does anyone
know of a published reference for gasification of plastics? Any and all help
would be appreciated!

Thanks,
Vernon Harris
__________________________________

In a message dated 11/9/98 9:52:17 PM Eastern Standard Time,
VHarris001@aol.com writes:

> For those of you interested, you can read an analysis of mixed household
> plastic pyrolysis at the following web page:
>
> http://www.cilea.it/~pierucci/94.htm
>
> Vern Harris
> VHarris001@aol.com
> Gasification List SPONSORS and ARCHIVES
> http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive
>
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From iti at connect-2.co.uk Tue Nov 10 07:40:29 1998
From: iti at connect-2.co.uk (ITI)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:07:52 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Internal vs. Direct Combustion.
Message-ID: <009701be0ca8$5ca97100$8d8bcdc2@fpgcsxhi>

-----Original Message-----
From: LINVENT@aol.com <LINVENT@aol.com>
To: gasification@crest.org <gasification@crest.org>
Date: 30 October 1998 02:39
Subject: Re: Re: GAS-L: Internal vs. Direct Combustion.

>Mr. Russell,
> The operation of boilers vs. IC engines parameters which you describe are
>very much correct. The major problem has been the gas cleaning which
limits
>the usefulness in this mode for long term utility type operations which is
the
>economic hump.
> The cleaning aspect is precisely the point which we have addressed and
have
>operated both diesel and SI engines on producer gas. The nature of
gasifiers
>lends them to a wide variety of feeds and with negative valued feedstocks,
the
>economics become extraordinary. Getting adequately cleaned gas has taken
some
>unusual steps, however, they come out in the end as an economic and
>thermodynamic benefit.
> With a 85% gasifier conversion to energy (cold, clean gas), and 33%
overall
>conversion efficiency without thermal recovery of the jacket heat and the
>exhaust gas, the overall minimum efficiency of 28% warrants serious
>application. If another 15% is recovered from exhaust and jacket heat,
this
>moves up quite well.
> Many of the issues which are communicated about in gasification field only
>need the proper perspective and a little imagination to implement.
> I will be sending you our latest information.
>
>Sincerely,
>
>Leland T. "Tom" Taylor
>President,
>Thermogenics Inc.
>Gasification List SPONSORS and ARCHIVES
>http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive

Dear Tom (et al),

Many thanks for your reply. As you may remember, my own interest is
primarily in engines and not in gasification units. I prefer to think that
the problem of producing clean producer gas for IC engine use has been
solved by other parties. I am conforted by your suggestion that this is
nowadays essentially true.

My present query concerns the overall design of a cogeneration plant for an
MDF processor. His plant presently produces 150 kg/hr of fine dry waste
(8% moisture) which is burned to produce hot air for a dryer. The output
is due to rise to 300 kg/hr however, and he is considering the economics of
installating a CHP plant for his factory to replace the present combustion
units.

Skip and others have suggested solutions for the power unit end of a
gasification plant, and have even offered to source the hardware. What we
need now is some similar suggestions on the gasifier itself : in particular
the quality and quality and make-up of the gas which could be expected from
the unit and (crucially of course) the potential capital cost on that end of
the project.

I expect that there are several possible solutions to the gasifier design,
involving a wide variety of capital costs and also ultimate gas purities.
I would be interested to hear from yourself or any other parties who could
offer a competitive solution to the problem here in hand.

Hoping to hear from you soon,

Best wishes,

Brian B. Russell esq.,
Innovation Technologies (Ireland) Ltd.
Co. Antrim,
N.Ireland.
iti@connect-2.co.uk

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From dschmidt at eerc.und.nodak.edu Tue Nov 10 08:04:45 1998
From: dschmidt at eerc.und.nodak.edu (Schmidt, Darren)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:07:52 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Plastic pyrolysis
Message-ID: <4106288187B3D111A09A000083A82DF01E6594@undeerc.eerc.und.NoDak.edu>

Thermal Technologies Inc. - talk to George Kotch (412) 487-8252. They used
to gasifiy materials for hazardous waste reduction in a downdraft unit.
(Richland, Washington) They pelletized the material and had trouble with
the pellets falling apart and causing high pressure drops. Certain blends
worked OK, but they could never mix in enough Hazardous waste to make it
profitable. The gas was flared only. Let me know if this helps.

-----Original Message-----
From: VHarris001@aol.com [mailto:VHarris001@aol.com]
Sent: Monday, November 09, 1998 9:00 PM
To: gasification@crest.org
Subject: GAS-L: Plastic pyrolysis

OOPS, I forgot to ask . . Does anyone have information about the behavior
of
plastics during gasification of biomass? For instance during pyrolysis
shown
below, the plastics primarily pyrolize to liquids. During gasification,
will
the plastics gasify quickly after the liquid state, or do they run down into
the biomass (especially during downdraft)? How hot must the gasification
process be in order to gasify the plastics for use in IC engines? Does
anyone
know of a published reference for gasification of plastics? Any and all
help
would be appreciated!

Thanks,
Vernon Harris
__________________________________

In a message dated 11/9/98 9:52:17 PM Eastern Standard Time,
VHarris001@aol.com writes:

From chlindia at ad1.vsnl.net.in Tue Nov 10 10:44:00 1998
From: chlindia at ad1.vsnl.net.in (Core Healthcare Limited)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:07:52 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Gasification of agro waste
Message-ID: <199811101544.KAA06741@solstice.crest.org>

Dear Sir ,

I am interested in installation of Gasification Technology inIndia based
on Agro waste . I would like to know much about such Gasifier and its
Commercial Application

Thanking You

Pankaj Patel

Manager Project
Core Healthcare Ltd
Core Tower
CG Road
Ahmedabad-380 006
India
Phone : 091-79-6560771
Fax: 091-79-6420239

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From LINVENT at aol.com Tue Nov 10 12:26:19 1998
From: LINVENT at aol.com (LINVENT@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:07:52 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Plastic gasification
Message-ID: <54e3e49.36485d9e@aol.com>

Brian B. Russell esq.,

Innovation Technologies (Ireland) Ltd.

Co. Antrim,

N.Ireland.

iti@connect-2.co.uk
Dear Mr. Russell,
We can gasify the materials in our standard equipment for IC engine operation
which you mention in the last communications for engine operation based upon
certain assumptions:
The heating value is high enough, the chlorine does not require special
materials of construction or removal processes, the ash is low enough to allow
adequate heating value.
The gas quality will be low in particulates, low in moisture, non-corrosive ,
be able to operate an IC SI engine at 80-95% of natural gas rating. The waste
heat from the engine can be used for heat exchanging or direct heating,
depending upon the cleanliness of the gas necessary for such. Engine exhaust
at 900-1100 F is quite useful for heating purposes.
The warranties will allow for long term operation ofthe engine and minimal
maintenance. Overall efficiency is quite high. The size you are referring to
is within the 103 series system which has a capacity of 1000#/hour, 454 Kg.
We are mailing you the product line information for you to consider this
option. In several weeks, we will have an operating unit suitable for your
needs here in Albuquerque if you wish to see it operate. It will operate on
tires, MSW.
If you have any questions. please feel free to call.

Sincerely.

Leland T. Taylor
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From Dean-Anne.Corson at xtra.co.nz Tue Nov 10 13:08:42 1998
From: Dean-Anne.Corson at xtra.co.nz (Anne and Dean Corson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:07:52 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Plastic pyrolysis
In-Reply-To: <2bcd68bb.3647ac4c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <364803F2.66D3@xtra.co.nz>

I know this is not gasification but for those interested, using a acid
catalyst such as AlCl3(Aluminium Chloride) a greater than 80% yeild of
gas can be obtained under certain conditions (reff. Selctive Catalytic
Degradation Of Polyolefins; S.R. Ivanova, E.F. Gumerova, K.S. Minsker;
Bashkirian State University; France.) Sorry don't know the name of the
journal. Pending on interest on this matter will depend on whether or
not I scan the artical for circulation.

Dean

VHarris001@aol.com wrote:
>
> OOPS, I forgot to ask . . Does anyone have information about the behavior of
> plastics during gasification of biomass? For instance during pyrolysis shown
> below, the plastics primarily pyrolize to liquids. During gasification, will
> the plastics gasify quickly after the liquid state, or do they run down into
> the biomass (especially during downdraft)? How hot must the gasification
> process be in order to gasify the plastics for use in IC engines? Does anyone
> know of a published reference for gasification of plastics? Any and all help
> would be appreciated!
>
> Thanks,
> Vernon Harris
> __________________________________
>
> In a message dated 11/9/98 9:52:17 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> VHarris001@aol.com writes:
>
> > For those of you interested, you can read an analysis of mixed household
> > plastic pyrolysis at the following web page:
> >
> > http://www.cilea.it/~pierucci/94.htm
> >
> > Vern Harris
> > VHarris001@aol.com
> > Gasification List SPONSORS and ARCHIVES
> > http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive
> >
> Gasification List SPONSORS and ARCHIVES
> http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive

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From arcate at email.msn.com Tue Nov 10 13:55:25 1998
From: arcate at email.msn.com (Jim Arcate)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:07:52 2004
Subject: GAS-L: palm fronds for bio-energy
Message-ID: <000401be0cdd$0da3d8e0$fd62fbd0@ibm.ibm.net>

Hello Gasification Group Members :

Does anyone have information about using palm fronds ("e.g. CA and FL green
waste") for biomass energy? e.g., for direct combustion, pyrolysis and
gasification. What are the typical proximate & ultimate analyses and
combustion (fouling) characteristics of palm fronds?

Thank you,

Jim Arcate
www.techtp.com

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From tmiles at teleport.com Tue Nov 10 16:32:10 1998
From: tmiles at teleport.com (Tom Miles)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:07:53 2004
Subject: GAS-L: palm fronds for bio-energy
In-Reply-To: <000401be0cdd$0da3d8e0$fd62fbd0@ibm.ibm.net>
Message-ID: <199811102132.QAA03704@solstice.crest.org>

Jim,

The California experience is that they are a nightmare to handle. Otherwise
they slag like any other grass.

Tom

At 09:05 AM 11/10/98 -1000, Jim Arcate wrote:
>Hello Gasification Group Members :
>
>Does anyone have information about using palm fronds ("e.g. CA and FL green
>waste") for biomass energy? e.g., for direct combustion, pyrolysis and
>gasification. What are the typical proximate & ultimate analyses and
>combustion (fouling) characteristics of palm fronds?
>
>Thank you,
>
>Jim Arcate
>www.techtp.com
>
>
>
>
>
>Gasification List SPONSORS and ARCHIVES
>http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive
>
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Jim,

The California experience is that they are a nightmare to handle. Otherwise
they slag like any other grass.

Tom

From arcate at email.msn.com Tue Nov 10 16:59:38 1998
From: arcate at email.msn.com (Jim Arcate)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:07:53 2004
Subject: GAS-L: palm fronds for bio-energy
Message-ID: <000e01be0cf6$c8da7240$c162fbd0@ibm.ibm.net>

Dear Tom Miles:

Could you please tell us more about "The California experience".
Thank you !

Jim Arcate

PS: I don't have many hard copy references, but one is a very good paper by
R.P. Overend that discusses fouling behavior of biomass, alkali metals, etc.
"Thermochemistry: The Key to Minerals Separation from Biomass for Fuel Use
in High Performance Systems" presented at "Power Production from Biomass II"
in Finland in March 1995.

Does anyone know if this US DOE contract paper is available on the Web?

-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Miles <tmiles@teleport.com>
To: gasification@crest.org <gasification@crest.org>; Gasification
<gasification@crest.org>
Date: Tuesday, November 10, 1998 11:46 AM
Subject: Re: GAS-L: palm fronds for bio-energy

Jim,

The California experience is that they are a nightmare to handle. Otherwise
they slag like any other grass.

Tom

At 09:05 AM 11/10/98 -1000, Jim Arcate wrote:
>Hello Gasification Group Members :
>
>Does anyone have information about using palm fronds ("e.g. CA and FL green
>waste") for biomass energy? e.g., for direct combustion, pyrolysis and
>gasification. What are the typical proximate & ultimate analyses and
>combustion (fouling) characteristics of palm fronds?
>
>Thank you,
>
>Jim Arcate
>www.techtp.com
>Gasification List SPONSORS and ARCHIVES
>http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive
>
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From paulh at phoenix.Princeton.EDU Tue Nov 10 17:52:18 1998
From: paulh at phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Paul M. Henderick)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:07:53 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Wet scrubbing and alkali removal; alkali nature
In-Reply-To: <4065b7a2.36476dc5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.03.9811101456050.9308-100000@phoenix.princeton.edu>

Many thanks for your reply Mr. Taylor.

On Mon, 9 Nov 1998 LINVENT@aol.com wrote:

> Paul,
> In response to your question about alkali elements, there are
> only certain ones which will be evolved from biomass. Notably, potash
> and calcium, sodium, and to a minor extent, magnesium.
> These as the strongest alkali forms are hydroxides which are
> formed when oxides of Ca, K, etc. meet water. Most of the hydroxides
> are water soluble except for calcium and magnesium which is a real
> problem. These are very corrosive and adhering to surfaces.

Adding what you've explained to what I think I know, let me attempt a
story and see if I'm on track or not (be forewarned: I'm a mechanical
engineer :) Alkalis, being important for metabolic functions of plant
cells, are dispersed throughout the plant. When biomass is pyrolyzed,
some of the alkalis get left behind in the ash (what determines the
fraction?) and some leave in the gaseous state as oxides (does K2O
exist?). If temperatures are high enough, the ash can melt and
constituents can mix, possibly forming low-melting-point eutectics (or is
it that they are already formed during pyrolysis?).

Back to the alkali vapors: if these oxides encounter a water scrubber,
hydroxides will form, of which calcium hydroxide and magnesium hydroxide
are not soluble in water. I'm not clear why this necessarily means the
water droplet won't capture these hydroxides. Insoluble particles get
captured all the time if they are large enough to cross stream lines
around the droplet and impact it. A molecule of CaO that just reacted
with the surface (or more likely the vapor around the droplet perhaps?) to
form an insoluble hydroxide then just bounces away form the surface? I'm
sure my understanding is flawed somewhere in this picture.

Ca(OH)2 and Mg(OH)2 get away, but KOH and NaOH are largely caught? What
kind of capture efficiency can be expected with conventional scrubbers?

So alkali metals occur in producer gas as both vapors/gases and
particulates (bits of ash)? Much more in one than the other?

> The exact physical damage to turbines is probably physical erosion due
> to abrasion, and some chemical damage, however, the materials of
> turbine construction are generally resistant to chemical attack.

i.e. resistant to corrosion by virtue of materials and not some kind
of coating which would be susceptible to eroding away?

> Small quantities adhering to the surface can create serious imbalances
> which will destroy the turbine.
> Alkali metals are also found with acids in biomass yields.
> Acetic acid from biomass such as wood will constitute a portion of the
> liquid yield. Washing the gas stream will not remove both from my
> experience. The liquids from gas cleaning are acidic. The other
> question is why they don't neutralize each other? The answer is
> probably that they do not meet equilibrium for neutralization.
> High temperature gasifier output temperature increases the
> alkali yield.
> I am interested in other comments about this question.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Leland T. Taylor

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From R.M.Sime at massey.ac.nz Tue Nov 10 17:56:51 1998
From: R.M.Sime at massey.ac.nz (Ric Sime)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:07:53 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Postdoc in Gasification
Message-ID: <01be0dac$b3c32800$LocalHost@rmsime>

Kent Johnson
College of Engineering
University of California

I am a final year PhD student studying biomass gasification at Massey
University (New Zealand). I have completed the experimental program of my
PhD, and am currently writing my thesis. I will complete my studies by the
end of the year.

My circumstances are somewhat usual. During my PhD studies, I made good
progress. A provisional patent was filed which was later widened in a second
provisional patent. The technology gained interest from the commercial
sector. New Zealands largest wholesale provider of electricity (ECNZ)
agreed to provide funding for the project, in return for an option to buy
intellectual property at a later date. I am currently in a confidentiality
agreement and as such are not permitted to publish or discuss the research.

Our Government has decided that ECNZ makes too much profit and monopolises
the wholesale market (50% market share). It is claimed that by breaking ECNZ
into three, that competition will develop, forcing down the wholesale
electricity price (currently U.S. 2.4 cents per kilowatt hour). At the same
many wholesale providers have been rapidly expanding capacity with the
installation of new natural gas combined cycle power plants. Currently New
Zealand's generating ability is 35% above maximum capacity. The situation is
primed for a price war.

ECNZ have expressed a desire to continue the research until the change over
occurs at the of April 1999. During this period I will be employed under
private contract. After that time ECNZ are unsure of whether the newly
formed companies will continue with research. There is a genuine concern
that the new companies during their first few years of business will only
want to focus on core activities. If the research is not continued after the
change over period, I will be seeking employment elsewhere.

I am interested in pyrolytic conversion of biomass to liquid fuels and
technology for utilising the fuels. Can you please e-mail more information
about the project being offered?

Regards,

Richard Sime
Physics
Institute of Fundamental Science
Massey University
New Zealand

-----Original Message-----
From: Kent Johnson <kjohnson@cert.ucr.edu>
To: gasification@crest.org <gasification@crest.org>
Date: Tuesday, 27 October 1998 08:02
Subject: GAS-L: Postdoc in Gasification

>Postdoctoral Researcher - Renewable Energy
>
>CE-CERT solicits applications for a postdoctoral researcher to work in
>our Renewable Fuels and Energy Group
><http://www.cert.ucr.edu/ref/index.html> beginning in the summer/fall of
>1999. Research will involve pyrolitic and biological processes for
>conversion of biomass to liquid and gaseous transportation fuels.
>Support will be provided by U.S. and international contracts and
>fellowships. Please send resume, list of publications, and references to
>Joseph M. Norbeck, CE-CERT 022, University of California, Riverside, CA
>92521-0434.
>
>
>
>--
> University of California, Riverside
> College of Engineering
> Center for Environmental Research and Technology
> Riverside, CA 92521
>
> Kent Johnson
> Phone (909) 781-5786
> Fax (909) 781-5790
> kjohnson@cert.ucr.edu
>
>
>Gasification List SPONSORS and ARCHIVES
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>

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From markus.almroth at rks.se Wed Nov 11 04:02:06 1998
From: markus.almroth at rks.se (Markus Almroth)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:07:53 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Transportation by Wood
Message-ID: <01BE0D5C.DBADB7E0@sancho.rks.se>

>Hi
>I can remember several years back, a team of engineers built a Datsun Pickup
>truck with a wood gasification unit fo power it, similar to experiments done
>by the Germans during WW2. As I recall, it worked. Now, however, I can not
>locate any information on wood gasification in this context. Do you happen to
>know if there is any information on how to do it?
>Thanks for your help.
>Dave Evans
>Taurgon@aol.com

I recommend CONSTRUCTION OF A SIMPLIFIED WOOD GAS GENERATOR: H.LaFontaine (1989). Available at http://www.webpan.com/bef/befpress.htm.
They also have a few good books on gasification theory, the handbook for
instance. I will probably buy that one myself one day.

'Gengas' is also very good. I have a swedish copy myself... But it is quite
old now (1950) and a lot has happened since then.

/Markus

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end

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From boilrmkr at surfsouth.com Wed Nov 11 06:57:01 1998
From: boilrmkr at surfsouth.com (Gene Zebley)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:07:53 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Re: U.S. Splurging on Energy After Falling Off Its Diet
In-Reply-To: <199811110438.WAA14742@dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <36496E9E.328BE185@surfsouth.com>

David M. Gubanc.P.E. wrote:

> How about some disclosure of who, when and where. Many of us have clients
> that could benefit, if your claims are valid.

Don't we know it! \;-) And I will share your skepticism until I receive the
second order. We receive calls weekly from guys that have "solved" the
waste-to- energy problem. But, only one in one thousand actually results in a
sale, technology licensing or partnerships.

First, I can't disclose what I have promised (thru non-disclosure agreements)
not to disseminate at this time. Secondly, I won't disclose info that would be
detrimental to my chances of closing the sale (Christmas is only 44 days away
and I need to send money to Japan for Play Station games). Finally, this is the
first of many such projects we plan to build, own and operate (sorry, all the
company shares have been sold).

The energy conversion portion of the project will utilize proven technologies
(see http://www.hurstboiler.com/wood.htm ). Although I'm finalizing a contract
with my partner, I, personally, will not be able to determine the validity of
the biomass collection and processing technology until the first project is
completed and operational.

I can say the process has been in the evaluation and trouble shooting phase for
over 9 years. As a result of this VERY thorough process, implementation is on
the fast track. Commissioning of the first installation is anticipated to take
place before next summer. My partner has over 18 years experience in biomass
technology and holds several patents currently utilized in the utilities
industry (confirmed). I have yet to confirm his claim to holding the
proportional "world record" for cofiring biomass with coal (60% biomass, 40%
coal) at a Southern Company 50 MW power plant. So far, I have not been able to
"trip him up" on any of his technology or claims.

I will tell you that the project will be located in an industrial park at the
Port of Savannah, GA. The location is ideal for the collection of small biomass
waste streams, what with the high population density, the large number of
local, small forestry related businesses and the VERY high concentration of
industry. The first client's plant requires 42,000 CFH of natural gas at full
capacity. The pricing of the current fuel swings wildly, the supply is erratic
and the supplier is, as is typical, "holier than thou". Hell, the client is so
excited he is considering contracting for excess capacity so HE can sell energy
to HIS neighbors.

The financials are excellent for a reasonable payback. Understand that our goal
is not to be the "Boeing" of the world making large profits on each system. We
would rather be like an insurance agent collecting relatively small residuals
from a large number of customers. If the tax credits are reinstated we plan to
offer those to the clients as a sweetener (as if we needed to). We believe this
philosophy will greatly expand the potential client base. We sincerely wish to
make these supply contracts a mechanism by which we can address a serious waste
issue in an environmentally responsible manner.

> Send over the non-disclosure documents if you need to, and we'll get them
> executed and back to you pronto.

When it's operating profitably and I am sure all the bugs are worked out, no
problem. We maintain an open door policy related to the manufacture of our
biomass conversion technology and all are welcome to visit our We WILL be
sending invitations for visits to the "show place" before the end of next
summer.

> We are very interested in what you propose, and wish you all possible
> success.

Thank you, Dave. I will be in contact.

> Dave Gubanc
> http://www.gubanc.com

Best regards,Gene Zebley

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From rcsc at west.net Wed Nov 11 10:50:21 1998
From: rcsc at west.net (Alex W. Bealer)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:07:53 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Remove from List
Message-ID: <003201be0d8c$addd5a20$24f1fecd@alexbeal>

Please remove this address (rcsc@west.net) from your e-mail
list.

Thank you

From dschmidt at eerc.und.nodak.edu Wed Nov 11 11:34:43 1998
From: dschmidt at eerc.und.nodak.edu (Schmidt, Darren)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:07:53 2004
Subject: GAS-L: KC gasifier in Arkansas
Message-ID: <4106288187B3D111A09A000083A82DF01E6598@undeerc.eerc.und.NoDak.edu>

Can any one provide information about the KC gasifier in Arkansas?

Darren D. Schmidt, Research Manager
Energy and Environmental Research Center
PO Box 9018 Grand Forks, ND 58202-9018
ph. (701)777-5120 fax (701)777-5181
dschmidt@eerc.und.nodak.edu <mailto:dschmidt@eerc.und.nodak.edu>

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From rbaileyj at prmenergy.com Wed Nov 11 17:03:05 1998
From: rbaileyj at prmenergy.com (Ronald W. Bailey, Sr.)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:07:53 2004
Subject: GAS-L: KC gasifier in Arkansas
In-Reply-To: <4106288187B3D111A09A000083A82DF01E6598@undeerc.eerc.und.NoDak.edu>
Message-ID: <364A0D96.B3F54FC2@prmenergy.com>

Darren:

There are actually six KC Gasifiers in Arkansas. Click
here for information on all six. Please contact PRM Energy Systems
for additional information.

Regards,
Ron Bailey

From campa at hrl.com.au Wed Nov 11 20:13:18 1998
From: campa at hrl.com.au (Campisi, Tony)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:07:53 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Wet scrubbing and alkali removal; alkali nature
Message-ID: <2FB804B11A6FD211A81400A0C955FAD47D63@mail_mulgrave>

Paul.

Issues related to alkali removal and gas turbines have been raised on
previous threads on this mailing list.

Cooling the gas streams to below 400degC will essentially condense all
volatile inorganics (Na, K species) from the gas-phase.

A barrier filter can then be used to separate the particulates. We have
used ceramic candle filters for removing the dust (and condensed alkali
species) from coal gasification process gases prior to burning the gas in a
(5MW) gas turbine (see HRL web site).

If you are using wet scrubbing ensure that there is a mist eliminator to
prevent water droplets containing alkali species reaching the turbine. The
use of water scrubbing will add water vapour to the gas stream and reduce
the gas heating value. From what temperature are you cooling the gas?

The actual form of the alkali species present in the gasifier ash and in the
gas stream will depend on the feed ash composition and the gasification
process. In analysing biomass for inorganic composition be aware that often
there will be clay, dirt etc also present in real samples.

You may be interested in looking at the Special Issue of Fuel Processing
Technology on Biomass Usage (Fuel Processing Technology, 1998, vol 54).

regards

Tony

---------------------------------------------------------
Dr Anthony Campisi
Senior Research Scientist
Combustion, Gasification, Ash Fouling, Process Chemistry
HRL Technology Pty Ltd
677 Springvale Road, Mulgrave, Victoria, Australia 3170
Telephone: +61 3 9565 9760
Facsimile: +61 3 9565 9777
e-mail: campa@hrl.com.au
WWW: http://www.hrl.com.au
---------------------------------------------------------

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Paul M. Henderick [SMTP:paulh@phoenix.Princeton.EDU]
> Sent: Tuesday, 10 November 1998 4:16
> To: gasification@crest.org
> Subject: GAS-L: Wet scrubbing and alkali removal; alkali nature
>
Gasification List SPONSORS and ARCHIVES
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From iti at connect-2.co.uk Thu Nov 12 04:36:44 1998
From: iti at connect-2.co.uk (ITI)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:07:53 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Re: Gasifier Design for MDF Sander Dust
Message-ID: <007201be0e21$08cfd360$ae8bcdc2@fpgcsxhi>

to : Messr's Leland T. (Tom) Taylor, Ron Bailey
(and other interested parties)

Many thanks for your prompt responses to my recent email. I am concerned
though that you may have misunderstood the nature of the fuel source for the
proposed gasifier at the MDF processing plant, which is actually 300 kg/hr
(approx.) of MDF sanderdust and fine shavings.

(The company is a processor of MDF board, but not a manufacturer. They do
not themselves perform other processes and do not therefore have any other
substantial biomass fuel source to add to this 300 kg/hr. Negotiations for
sources of additional fuel could of course be possible, but is not being
considered as an option at the present time.)

I imagine that the nature of this product should in some ways reduce the
unknowns with respect to gasifier design. (i.e. low and consistent water
content, consistent calorific value, known additives, etc.). The main
problems must arise from the fine grain size and the need to control any
toxic emissions which may come from the binder.

I would be grateful if you could confirm whether or not you have experience
in gasification of this particular fuel source. If so, perhaps you could
indicate for me whether any pre-processing might be required. (We are
presently anticipating a need for some sort of pelletisation if the gasifier
is to be of a down-draft design).

In advance of more detailed information which you may send, I would also be
grateful for some indication of a ball-park price for the gasifier only, and
also if possible for a complete turn-key plant with appropriate power unit,
3-phase 50 Hz generator, etc.

I will of course supply you with further information at my disposal as
required.

Hoping to hear from you soon,

Yours sincerely,

Brian Russell.

p.s. I did try to reply to LINVENT@aol.com but the message returned here
undelivered.

Dr. Brian B. Russell
Chartered Engineer
Innovation Technologies (Ireland) Ltd
47 Manse Road, Ballycarry, Co. Antrim
BT38 9HP Northern Ireland
Tel/Fax 01960 373379iti@connect-2.co.uk

Gasification List SPONSORS and ARCHIVES
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From rbaileyj at prmenergy.com Thu Nov 12 09:54:30 1998
From: rbaileyj at prmenergy.com (Ronald W. Bailey, Sr.)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:07:53 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Re: Gasifier Design for MDF Sander Dust
In-Reply-To: <007201be0e21$08cfd360$ae8bcdc2@fpgcsxhi>
Message-ID: <364AFA99.FD3FA81D@prmenergy.com>

Dear Brian:

PRME has successfully gasified sander dust and fine shavings in a full
scale commercial size PRME gasifier. We will send additional
information.
Regards,
Ron Bailey

Gasification List SPONSORS and ARCHIVES
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From LINVENT at aol.com Thu Nov 12 10:18:51 1998
From: LINVENT at aol.com (LINVENT@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:07:53 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Re: Gasifier Design for MDF Sander Dust
Message-ID: <108c9397.364aff1f@aol.com>

Dear Brian,
I had for many years worked with gasification of sander dust from a particle
board plant here in Albuquerque. The fineness requires a lower flow rate to
reduce fluidization and elutriation from the reactor. It has a relatively low
fusion point arisisng from silica which comes from the sander belts during
sanding which means that many conventional processes will have problems with
ash fusion because of the temperature. Our system will have mechanical
agitation to reduce the ash fusion agglomeration into larger components.
Ammonia production from the urea based adhesives can also be of some concern,
however, much of it will be condensed and removed in the water drain from the
system. If NOx emissions from the prime mover are a concern from the ammonia,
a catalytic system can be added to the prime mover exhaust.
We can also remove the fine particulates and other components which carry
over in the gas stream and produce the quality gas necessary to operate an IC
engine.
We will have an operating system here in Albuquerque which we can operate
materials on in the next 30-45 days. I will forward by mail to you the
information on the system which you have requested on pricing etc.

Sincerely

Tom Taylor
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From tmiles at teleport.com Thu Nov 12 10:29:39 1998
From: tmiles at teleport.com (Tom Miles)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:07:53 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Re: Gasifier Design for MDF Sander Dust
In-Reply-To: <007201be0e21$08cfd360$ae8bcdc2@fpgcsxhi>
Message-ID: <199811121541.HAA20267@mail.easystreet.com>

Brian,

Pelletizing a small quantity (300 kg/hr, 5 GJ/hr) of sanderdust and fine
shavings is a good handling option for later use in a gasifer or combustor.
It means a separate process but not a bad one for your circumstances.

Burning MDF sanderdust used to be fairly easy, with a properly designed
burner you can get the shape and temperature of the flame you want. But
recently MDF manufactureres have been making some changs to the resins they
use which causes slagging at high temperatures. I've worked on three such
problems at MDF plants in the last year. If slagging is a problem, and if
you are pelletizing, then you'll probably want to use an additive to the
pellet.

The fine sanderdust does cause problems (ratholing, hot and cold spots etc)
in certain fixed and moving bed designs. It does gasify nicely in a
fluidized bed. I'd be interested to see what our gasifier suppliers have to
offer.

Regards,

Tom Miles

At 09:43 AM 11/12/98 +0000, you wrote:
>to : Messr's Leland T. (Tom) Taylor, Ron Bailey
> (and other interested parties)
>
>
>Many thanks for your prompt responses to my recent email. I am concerned
>though that you may have misunderstood the nature of the fuel source for the
>proposed gasifier at the MDF processing plant, which is actually 300 kg/hr
>(approx.) of MDF sanderdust and fine shavings.
>
>
>(The company is a processor of MDF board, but not a manufacturer. They do
>not themselves perform other processes and do not therefore have any other
>substantial biomass fuel source to add to this 300 kg/hr. Negotiations for
>sources of additional fuel could of course be possible, but is not being
>considered as an option at the present time.)
>
>
>I imagine that the nature of this product should in some ways reduce the
>unknowns with respect to gasifier design. (i.e. low and consistent water
>content, consistent calorific value, known additives, etc.). The main
>problems must arise from the fine grain size and the need to control any
>toxic emissions which may come from the binder.
>
>
>I would be grateful if you could confirm whether or not you have experience
>in gasification of this particular fuel source. If so, perhaps you could
>indicate for me whether any pre-processing might be required. (We are
>presently anticipating a need for some sort of pelletisation if the gasifier
>is to be of a down-draft design).
>
>
>In advance of more detailed information which you may send, I would also be
>grateful for some indication of a ball-park price for the gasifier only, and
>also if possible for a complete turn-key plant with appropriate power unit,
>3-phase 50 Hz generator, etc.
>
>
>I will of course supply you with further information at my disposal as
>required.
>
>
>Hoping to hear from you soon,
>
>
>Yours sincerely,
>
>
>Brian Russell.
>
>
>p.s. I did try to reply to LINVENT@aol.com but the message returned here
>undelivered.
>
>
>Dr. Brian B. Russell
>Chartered Engineer
>Innovation Technologies (Ireland) Ltd
>47 Manse Road, Ballycarry, Co. Antrim
>BT38 9HP Northern Ireland
>Tel/Fax 01960 373379iti@connect-2.co.uk
>
>
>
>Gasification List SPONSORS and ARCHIVES
>http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive
>
T.R. Miles tmiles@teleport.com
1470 SW Woodward Way http://www.teleport.com/~tmiles
Portland, OR 97225
Tel 503-292-0107 Fax 503-605-0208
Gasification List SPONSORS and ARCHIVES
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From thomas_milne at nrel.gov Thu Nov 12 21:19:43 1998
From: thomas_milne at nrel.gov (Milne, Thomas)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:07:53 2004
Subject: GAS-L: FW:
Message-ID: <199811130219.VAA09610@solstice.crest.org>

-----Original Message-----
From: Milne, Thomas
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 1998 12:18 PM
To: 'crestm'
Subject: FW:

At long last, thanks to input from many of you, the "tar" survey is available.
It is about 200 pages long and can be transmitted by e-mail. (Contact Tom
Milne, milnet@nrel.gov. <mailto:milnet@nrel.gov.> ) A limited number of hard
copies are also available. Eventually it will be displayed on the NREL
Biomass
Power Home Page.

The title is: Biomass Gasifier "Tars": Their Nature, Formation and
Conversion.
NREL/TP-570-25357, November 1998. By: T.A. Milne, N. Abatzoglou. and R.J.
Evans. This report was prepared at the request of Suresh Babu and the IEA
Biomass Utilization Task XIII, "Thermal Gasification of Biomass" activity.

Tom Milne, Principal Chemist, emeritus.
National Renewable Energy Laboratory
1617 Cole Blvd.
Golden, Colorado.

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From tmiles at teleport.com Thu Nov 12 22:24:14 1998
From: tmiles at teleport.com (Tom Miles)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:07:53 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Sponsor the Gasification List
Message-ID: <199811130336.TAA26633@mail.easystreet.com>

We need sponsors for the Gasification List.

This month the Gasification List is provided courtesy of:

Heuristic Engineering, Malcolm Leftcort

Sponsorship costs $50 per month. We ask for a minimum of three months.

The list receives no other funding so contribute to keep the discussion
rolling.

To sponsor Bioenergy, or one of the other lists, please fill out the form at:

http://crest.org/services/biolist-spons.shtml

and send a check to CREST as instructed.

Thanks

Tom Miles
Bioenergy Lists Administrator
T.R. Miles tmiles@teleport.com
1470 SW Woodward Way http://www.teleport.com/~tmiles
Portland, OR 97225
Tel 503-292-0107 Fax 503-605-0208
Gasification List SPONSORS and ARCHIVES
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From VHarris001 at aol.com Fri Nov 13 00:36:48 1998
From: VHarris001 at aol.com (VHarris001@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:07:53 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Tar report
Message-ID: <2a8d863e.364bc7c6@aol.com>

The address milnet@nrel.gov returns the following message:

_________________________________________

In a message dated 11/13/98 12:42:54 AM Eastern Standard Time, MAILER-
DAEMON@nrel.gov writes:

>
> --------Message not delivered to the following:
>
> milnet No matches to nameserver query
>
> --------Error Detail (phquery V4.4):
>
> The message, "No matches to nameserver query," is generated whenever
> the ph nameserver fails to locate either a ph alias or name field that
> matches the supplied name. The usual causes are typographical errors or
> the use of nicknames. Recommended action is to use the ph program to
> determine the correct ph alias for the individuals addressed. If ph is
> not available, try sending to the most explicit form of the name, e.g.,
> if al-newman fails, try alfred-newman or alfred-e-newman.
>
>

_______________________________________

-----Original Message-----
From: Milne, Thomas
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 1998 12:18 PM
To: 'crestm'
Subject: FW:

Tom Milne, Principal Chemist, emeritus.
National Renewable Energy Laboratory
1617 Cole Blvd.
Golden, Colorado.
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From Julie_Wheeler at erm.com Tue Nov 17 11:11:38 1998
From: Julie_Wheeler at erm.com (Julie Wheeler)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:07:53 2004
Subject: GAS-L: thermal DeNOx
Message-ID: <852566BF.0053C4BA.00@erm.com>

To whom it may conern,
I am trying to get information on the process of "thermal DeNOx", do
you have any suggestions on how I could get some info on the process?
Please let me know if you have any ideas. Thank You.
Sincerely,
Julie Wheeler
Environmental Resources Management

Gasification List SPONSORS and ARCHIVES
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From campa at hrl.com.au Thu Nov 19 03:40:05 1998
From: campa at hrl.com.au (Campisi, Tony)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:07:53 2004
Subject: GAS-L: thermal DeNOx
Message-ID: <2FB804B11A6FD211A81400A0C955FAD47DA2@mail_mulgrave>

Julie,

In Thermal DeNOx, ammonia is injected into the combustion exhaust gases in
the temperature range between about 1100 K and 1400 K. Ammonia derived
radicals react with the NO to N2. Reaction conditions are important as it
is possible to also oxidise the ammonia to NO.

The technique was disclosed by R. K. Lyon, US Patent 3,900,554 (1975) -
Method for the reduction of the concentration of NO in combustion effluents
using ammonia.

Tony

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Julie Wheeler [SMTP:Julie_Wheeler@erm.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 1998 2:17 AM
> To: gasification@crest.org
> Subject: GAS-L: thermal DeNOx
>
> To whom it may conern,
> I am trying to get information on the process of "thermal DeNOx", do
> you have any suggestions on how I could get some info on the process?
> Please let me know if you have any ideas. Thank You.
> Sincerely,
> Julie Wheeler
> Environmental Resources Management
>
Gasification List SPONSORS and ARCHIVES
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From kitio at africaweb.net Fri Nov 20 16:31:17 1998
From: kitio at africaweb.net (Vincent Kitio)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:07:53 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Re: Remove me from the list
Message-ID: <199811202144.VAA17428@yepa.net>

Dear Sir/Madam
Could you please tell me how to signoff from this list
I hard-disk crashed and all my files went lost included
the instruction file.
Thank you verry much for your collaboration
Regards
Vincent Kitio

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From kcact at wollongong.starway.net.au Sat Nov 21 07:13:33 1998
From: kcact at wollongong.starway.net.au (Kerrie Christian)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:07:53 2004
Subject: GAS-L: africa
In-Reply-To: <UPMAIL01.199810210532190138@classic.msn.com>
Message-ID: <3656A709.F99DB533@wollongong.starway.net.au>

This issue is obviously one of concern - but I have another question ...
Is it presumptuous to assume that all particpants are only of the male gender ...
as a female techo am I permitted to participate and observe in this discussion
group?

Kerrie Anne Christian

skip goebel wrote:

> gentlemen,
> as we speak, hundreds of people lie dying days after an explosion in a
> pipeline containing a refined fuel. while on the bbc and other real news, it
> isnt mentioned on our mainstream press. this is ugly beyond imagination. is
> it that these people do not count because they are black, do not drive
> minivans and are Christian?
> i digress to the energy manifesto once again.
>
> this would not have happened with bio fuels (local cellulose)
> skip
>
> Gasification List SPONSORS and ARCHIVES
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From LINVENT at aol.com Sat Nov 21 10:25:55 1998
From: LINVENT at aol.com (LINVENT@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:07:53 2004
Subject: GAS-L: africa
Message-ID: <63c20c6.3656de7f@aol.com>

Gasification List SPONSORS and ARCHIVES
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From LINVENT at aol.com Sat Nov 21 10:40:18 1998
From: LINVENT at aol.com (LINVENT@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:07:53 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Re: Female techno
Message-ID: <5275bf9c.3656e1d7@aol.com>

Dear Kerrie,
Of course you are willing to participate in the pure male gasification field,
cheerleaders are always welcome. Now that you understand that I have a sense
of humor, and take it that way, our company has several projects under
discussion in Africa and bio-energy there can be massively important
culturally to allow the growth of the economy without the political and
economic strings which non-renewable resources always come with. Having
control over the energy supply locally and deriving energy from the intrinsic
resources provides incentive for other stimulating activities and a cultural
independence.
What country are you from? Perhaps I should be able to tell from the e-mail
address, but I can't.
I am always pleased to see female parties interested in technical issues as
it give more conversation topics and participation and an emotional connection
which is often missing without it. This is what human interaction is about.
I agree with Skip's comments about the deaths at the pipeline, but trying to
put guilt or blame is a stretch and even without this, with the current energy
prices, the economics of biomass become more waste oriented for positive
economics and not solely upon energy costs as a driving force.
By the way, how has your interest arisen? What have you studied? What is
your profession? Look forward to your participation.
Sincerely,
Leland T.Taylor
Thermogenics Inc.
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From ethan at cert.UCR.EDU Sat Nov 21 22:21:28 1998
From: ethan at cert.UCR.EDU (Ethan Altman)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:07:53 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Conversion efficiencies
Message-ID: <199811220321.WAA28359@solstice.crest.org>

id NAA24219
Sender: owner-gasification@crest.org
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: gasification

Dear List Members

I am looking for any information on carbon conversion efficiencies for
sawdust and/or rice hulls feedstocks from any gasification or pyrolysis
methods. Any information provided will be most helpful.

Thank you

Ethan Altman

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From kcact at wollongong.starway.net.au Sun Nov 22 01:24:43 1998
From: kcact at wollongong.starway.net.au (Kerrie Christian)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:07:53 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Re: Female techno
In-Reply-To: <5275bf9c.3656e1d7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3657A6CC.4C20A818@wollongong.starway.net.au>

By way of explanation - I am an Australian Metallurgist aka Materials Engineer - my
specialties include high temperature materials, in particular for power generation
applications ie boilers, turbines -- I have about 25 years industrial experience in the
iron & steel industry - I also happen to be have been elected to my local Municipal
Council -having served 7 years to date - and this local authority is working with a
local Australian firm to develop gasification programs for handling greenwaste and MSW

Kerrie Christian

LINVENT@aol.com wrote:

> Dear Kerrie,
> Of course you are willing to participate in the pure male gasification field,
> cheerleaders are always welcome. Now that you understand that I have a sense
> of humor, and take it that way, our company has several projects under
> discussion in Africa and bio-energy there can be massively important
> culturally to allow the growth of the economy without the political and
> economic strings which non-renewable resources always come with. Having
> control over the energy supply locally and deriving energy from the intrinsic
> resources provides incentive for other stimulating activities and a cultural
> independence.
> What country are you from? Perhaps I should be able to tell from the e-mail
> address, but I can't.
> I am always pleased to see female parties interested in technical issues as
> it give more conversation topics and participation and an emotional connection
> which is often missing without it. This is what human interaction is about.
> I agree with Skip's comments about the deaths at the pipeline, but trying to
> put guilt or blame is a stretch and even without this, with the current energy
> prices, the economics of biomass become more waste oriented for positive
> economics and not solely upon energy costs as a driving force.
> By the way, how has your interest arisen? What have you studied? What is
> your profession? Look forward to your participation.
> Sincerely,
> Leland T.Taylor
> Thermogenics Inc.
> Gasification List SPONSORS and ARCHIVES
> http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive

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From rabello at uniserve.com Sun Nov 22 01:41:53 1998
From: rabello at uniserve.com (robert luis rabello)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:07:53 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Female Tech. . .
In-Reply-To: <5275bf9c.3656e1d7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3657B53F.8EB397C5@uniserve.com>

Kerrie Christian wrote:

> By way of explanation - I am an Australian Metallurgist aka Materials Engineer

<snip>

Hello!!!

Glad to have your experience and expertise on line. We hope to hear of your work down
under.

respectfully,

robert luis rabello
VisionWorks

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From kyoung98 at worldnet.att.net Sun Nov 22 08:54:30 1998
From: kyoung98 at worldnet.att.net (L. Keith Young)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:07:53 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Re: micro-gasifiers
Message-ID: <01be1702$67498f00$dd2a4f0c@default>

Hi Dale,
I'm new to the world of renewable energy, in a real sense-always have been
interested but never gave it a try, but will try to produce some methane
using cow manure this spring. I have wondered about the collection and
storage problem, and think that the 1000cuft. ag-bag PVC, that you mention
would fit the bill nicely. Could you provide me with a supplier? Also, how
do you keep the gas from leaking out of the opening? Is it as simple as
merely twisting the opening shut? Any help that you can offer would be
appreciated.
Thanks,
Keith Young
-----Original Message-----
From: Arnt Karlsen <arnt@c2i.net>
To: Dale Costich <costich@pacifier.com>; gasification@crest.org
<gasification@crest.org>
Date: Wednesday, October 28, 1998 9:50 PM
Subject: GAS-L: Re: micro-gasifiers

>Dale Costich wrote:
>
>> Arnt: please see http://members.tripod.com/~costich and under
>> gasification find my operating system. 5 years now. I've run more than
>> 100 hours and am still learning. I do batch approach here for my
>> residence. I light the charcoal from the previous run operate 1 hour or
>> less during which time I fill a 1000cuft ag-bag PVC silage bag with wood
>> gas-it can be consumed up to a month later for cooking and heating
>> purposes. I'm living proof small is do-able. Sincerely, Dale Costich
>
>..Dale, I saw your website on your energy systems,
>any pics of your gas bag system? How quick do you fill that bag?
>Also like some details on your gasifier subsystems.
>
>Tom Reed wrote:
>
>> >..gee, can working gasifiers be made that small? Briggs& Stratton grass
>> mower
>>
>> Visit the STOVES node of CREST. They are making gasifiers in the 2-3
>> kWthermal range. Could supply stirlings.
>
>..hum, that got me thinking, about the right size for a model airplane
>engine,and flying one on charcoal gas *would* be a first time ever event...
>..a swede *did fly* a full scale airplane on charcoal gas back in -43...
>
>..now Skip asks a valid and simple question. The main advantage I see,
>is gasification produce pretty clean gas out of pretty dirty fuels, and
that
>
>this gas is easily, cleanly and cheaply combustible not only in good boiler
>fireboxes, but also in stirlings, fuel cells, internal combustion engines
>and
>cooking stoves. Co-generation is simple, and for an auto size investment,
>an auto size amount of electric power and heat, can be had, or sold, to
>produce a modest living...
>
>/Arnt
>
>
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>

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From costich at pacifier.com Sun Nov 22 16:33:23 1998
From: costich at pacifier.com (Dale Costich)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:07:53 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Re: micro-gasifiers
In-Reply-To: <01be1702$67498f00$dd2a4f0c@default>
Message-ID: <36588655.5FE7@pacifier.com>

Keith Young: My learned friend Art Krenzel is going to take a digital
photo of my 1000 cu.ft. system. AG-BAG Corp. near Tillamook, Ore. will
sell you a 300 foot X 10 foot dia cylinder in a box, mine cost me 300
dollars several years ago. The bottom opening is held at its 10 foot
diameter by a stiff guy wire cable that I wove into a circle and tucked
the bag around it then placed weights around its perimeter which was
immersed in a shallow pool of water-the top I gathered together and
bound snugly and immersed into a pail of water at the top of the wooden
crib. It does work but there are pin-holes which can be sealed with a
pvc tape AG-Bag stocks. I will put a bag in a bag next time to improve
gas retention and guard against dillution. Best Luck and stay in touch,
Dale Costich
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From dfknowles at bigfoot.com Mon Nov 23 10:30:56 1998
From: dfknowles at bigfoot.com (David Knowles)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:07:53 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Re: micro-gasifiers
In-Reply-To: <01be1702$67498f00$dd2a4f0c@default>
Message-ID: <199811231530.KAA03694@solstice.crest.org>

Does anyone know if these bags meet NFPA or National Fuel Gas codes?

Dave Knowles
Antares Group
dfknowles@bigfoot.com
301-731-1900

Dale Costich wrote:

> Keith Young: My learned friend Art Krenzel is going to take a digital
> photo of my 1000 cu.ft. system. AG-BAG Corp. near Tillamook, Ore. will
> sell you a 300 foot X 10 foot dia cylinder in a box, mine cost me 300
> dollars several years ago.

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From SAHAGUNS at pdvsa.com Mon Nov 23 19:22:05 1998
From: SAHAGUNS at pdvsa.com (Sahagun, Sofia)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:07:53 2004
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199811240022.TAA09551@solstice.crest.org>

hello, my name is SOFIA SAHAGUN, I'm from Venezuela, and I'm working
in Petroleos de Venezuela (PDVSA-GAS).

I'm interested in Know the price of gas natural (gas methano) in
diferents country in Latin America, please send me some information
about it

thanks a lot,

SOFIA SAHAGUN
sahaguns@pdvsa.com

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From arnt at c2i.net Mon Nov 23 20:07:05 1998
From: arnt at c2i.net (Arnt Karlsen)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:07:53 2004
Subject: GAS-L: ..gas price, was: <subject missing>
In-Reply-To: <199811240022.TAA09551@solstice.crest.org>
Message-ID: <365A07DB.D61C0361@c2i.net>

Hi Sofia,

..chk out Url: http://www.bp.com/bpstats/

Sahagun, Sofia wrote:

> hello, my name is SOFIA SAHAGUN, I'm from Venezuela, and I'm working
> in Petroleos de Venezuela (PDVSA-GAS).
>
> I'm interested in Know the price of gas natural (gas methano) in
> diferents country in Latin America, please send me some information
> about it
>
> thanks a lot,
>
> SOFIA SAHAGUN
> sahaguns@pdvsa.com

/Arnt

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From r at costarica.net Mon Nov 23 20:49:03 1998
From: r at costarica.net (Roy Lent)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:07:53 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Re:
In-Reply-To: <199811240022.TAA09551@solstice.crest.org>
Message-ID: <199811240149.UAA14106@solstice.crest.org>

> Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 19:22:05 -0500 (EST)
> From: "Sahagun, Sofia" <SAHAGUNS@pdvsa.com>
> To: gasification@crest.org
> Reply-to: gasification@crest.org

>
> hello, my name is SOFIA SAHAGUN, I'm from Venezuela, and I'm working
> in Petroleos de Venezuela (PDVSA-GAS).
>
> I'm interested in Know the price of gas natural (gas methano) in
> diferents country in Latin America, please send me some information
> about it
>
> thanks a lot,
>
> SOFIA SAHAGUN
> sahaguns@pdvsa.com
_____________
As far as I know, methane gas (gas metano) is not offered as a
commercial product anywhere in Latin America, just propane and
butane. Or is "natural gas" methane?

Roy Lent

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From arcate at email.msn.com Mon Nov 23 22:50:14 1998
From: arcate at email.msn.com (Jim Arcate)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:07:53 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Biomass PFBC vs. Gasification
Message-ID: <001501be175f$076a6de0$9a62fbd0@ibm.ibm.net>

Hello Gasification: Received reply today to my message to DOE re PFBC
-------------------------------------------
My 10/31/98 Message to Don Bonk, DOE re. PFBC
Hello Don: Maybe you or someone at the DOE can give Gasification some
comments on Biomass PFBC vs Gasification.
-------------------------------------------
Reply From: DONALD BONK <DONALD.BONK@fetc.doe.gov>
To: arcate@email.msn.com <arcate@email.msn.com>
Date: Monday, November 23, 1998 2:29 PM
Subject: Fw: Biomass PFBC vs. Gasification - Reply

155 Mw estimated at less than $1000/kw. Concept uses proven
expander and compressor at pressure 16 to 21 bar. Uses proven or
emerging filter technology. Estimate 40% efficiency. Burns almost
anything. Steam cycle is 1800/1000/1000, nothing difficult. Alkali not
consider problem with this unit. Smaller sizes being investigated with
superior efficiencies when compared to std units.

On more advanced unit with partial gasification there are no tar problems,
alkali and other are addressed as needed.
-------------------------------------------

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From james at sri.org.au Tue Nov 24 00:37:05 1998
From: james at sri.org.au (James Joyce)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:07:53 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Biomass PFBC vs. Gasification
Message-ID: <19981124154929james@jj_lap.sri.org.au>

Jim forwarded the following. My questions are in the text.

> Hello Gasification: Received reply today to my message to DOE re
> PFBC
> -------------------------------------------
... snip ...

> Reply From: DONALD BONK <DONALD.BONK@fetc.doe.gov>
> To: arcate@email.msn.com <arcate@email.msn.com>
> Date: Monday, November 23, 1998 2:29 PM
> Subject: Fw: Biomass PFBC vs. Gasification - Reply
>
> 155 Mw estimated at less than $1000/kw. Concept uses proven
> expander and compressor at pressure 16 to 21 bar. Uses proven or
> emerging filter technology. Estimate 40% efficiency. Burns
> almost anything.

Burns anything .. Big claim, is this proven ? Who's technology are we
refering to ?
What about bed agglomeration with low ash sintering temperature fuels ?
What about biomass feeding into the pressure vessel (please don't say
lockhoppers as these don't work for many fibrous materials).
Does the 40% efficiency assume a dry biomass feedstock or does it take
into account drying ? If so how is the drying done ?

... snip ..

> Alkali not consider problem with this unit.

Why not ?

> On more advanced unit with partial gasification there are no tar
> problems, alkali and other are addressed as needed.

What does "addressed as needed" mean ?

James Joyce
Engineer
Sugar Research Institute
Mackay Australia
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From arcate at email.msn.com Tue Nov 24 13:21:58 1998
From: arcate at email.msn.com (Jim Arcate)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:07:53 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Biomass PFBC vs. Gasification -Reply
Message-ID: <000c01be17d8$ce82b580$3b5cffd0@ibm.ibm.net>

To Gasification Discussion Group:

Forwarding reply from Don Bonk re November 23, 1998 7:52 PM
message from James Joyce on this subject.
----------------------------------
From: DONALD BONK <DONALD.BONK@fetc.doe.gov>
To: arcate@email.msn.com <arcate@email.msn.com>
Date: Tuesday, November 24, 1998 5:19 AM
Subject: GAS-L: Biomass PFBC vs. Gasification -Reply

Burns Almost Anything, FBCs are currently burning Sewage sludge,
palm, general biomass, tires, coal (all ranks) coal tailing. It is proven
by
FW, BW, ABB, Lurgi, and most of the other vendors

Bed Management is the answer to the bed agglomeration problems.
Papers on this subject will be given at the 15th International FBC
Conference in Savannah, Georgia, USA May 16-19, 1999. A great
learning experience. Check ASME web page.

If for gasification of biomass you use something other than lockhoppers,
they should be compatible with PFBC. Note the fibrous nature of
biomass will screw up any feed system pressurized or atmospheric.

Efficiency will be decreased by moisture, 38 % is a guess, but it will be a
higher overall efficiency when compare to other systems.

Drying can be done and is done for some of the wet coals (30% or
greater moisture).

Alkali , is low due to low temperature combustion and collection on filter
cake, if additional measures are needed they will be design into the
system. Concerns are address as needed, means when funds are
provided, the same as they are on Gasifier systems (IE; Efficiency
robbing cold gas clean-up)

Every concern presented with respect to PFBC should be on your list for
gasification.
----------------------------------

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From james at sri.org.au Tue Nov 24 17:29:33 1998
From: james at sri.org.au (James Joyce)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:07:54 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Biomass charcoal
Message-ID: <19981125084205james@jj_lap.sri.org.au>

Question for Jim Arcate :

I'd like to check some figures for biomass charcoal with you.

Say I want to store the equivalent of 300,000 tonnes of sugar cane
bagasse for off season use in a hypothetical 150 MWe gasifier power
plant.

Do you agree with the following figures :

LHV (net) of 40% moisture bagasse = 11,400 kJ/m3
Storage density of heaped bagasse = 150 kg/m3
Storage density of baled bagasse = 750 kg/m3 (individ. bales 750-800)

LHV (net) of bagasse charcoal = 30,000 kJ/m3 correct ?
Storage density of pelletised charcoal = 800 kg/m3 correct ?

Therefore,

300,000 t of heaped bagasse = 2,000,000 m3 (40 Hectares x 5 m high)
300,000 t of baled bagasse = 429,571 m3 (10 Hectares x 4.3 m high)
114,000 t of charcoal (energy equiv. to 300,000 t of bagasse
= 142,500 m3 (5 Hectares x 2.84 m high)

comments anyone ?

From campa at hrl.com.au Tue Nov 24 18:25:57 1998
From: campa at hrl.com.au (Campisi, Tony)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:07:54 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Biomass charcoal
Message-ID: <2FB804B11A6FD211A81400A0C955FAD47DD8@mail_mulgrave>

Before we all go and build these *huge* charcoal stockpiles has someone
looked at the issues of low-temperature oxidation (self heating) and
spontaneous ignition?

Tony

> -----Original Message-----
> From: james@sri.org.au [SMTP:james@sri.org.au]
> Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 1998 7:42 PM
> To: gasification@crest.org
> Cc: phil@sri.org.au
> Subject: GAS-L: Biomass charcoal
>
> Question for Jim Arcate :
>
> I'd like to check some figures for biomass charcoal with you.
>
> Say I want to store the equivalent of 300,000 tonnes of sugar cane
> bagasse for off season use in a hypothetical 150 MWe gasifier power
> plant.
>
> Do you agree with the following figures :
>
> LHV (net) of 40% moisture bagasse = 11,400 kJ/m3
> Storage density of heaped bagasse = 150 kg/m3
> Storage density of baled bagasse = 750 kg/m3 (individ. bales 750-800)
>
> LHV (net) of bagasse charcoal = 30,000 kJ/m3 correct ?
> Storage density of pelletised charcoal = 800 kg/m3 correct ?
>
> Therefore,
>
> 300,000 t of heaped bagasse = 2,000,000 m3 (40 Hectares x 5 m high)
> 300,000 t of baled bagasse = 429,571 m3 (10 Hectares x 4.3 m high)
> 114,000 t of charcoal (energy equiv. to 300,000 t of bagasse
> = 142,500 m3 (5 Hectares x 2.84 m high)
>
>
> comments anyone ?
>
>
> James Joyce
> Engineer
> Sugar Research Institute
> Mackay Australia
> ph. (07) 4952 7698
> intl ph. INTL + 61 7 4952 7600
> fax (07) 4952 1734
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From james at sri.org.au Tue Nov 24 19:19:24 1998
From: james at sri.org.au (James Joyce)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:07:54 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Biomass charcoal
Message-ID: <19981125103146james@jj_lap.sri.org.au>

Tony Campisi wrote :

> Before we all go and build these *huge* charcoal stockpiles has
> someone looked at the issues of low-temperature oxidation (self
> heating) and spontaneous ignition?
>

Bagasse is prone to spontaneous ignition too, so it isn't ahead of
charcoal on that issue. Some heaps as small as a few thousand tonnes
have been known to burn for years (it is virtually impossible to put
out once ignited ... it is not so much a raging fire with flames but a
constant smouldering). The interesting thing here is that no-one is
sure yet whether the ignition mechanism is purely chemical, biological
or a complicated combination of both.

As for low-temperature oxidation, this could give cause for concern.
Biomass charcoal is outside my experience ... any comments on low temp
oxidation and spontaneous ignition from Jim Arcate ?

James Joyce, SRI
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From CharlesFederle at webtv.net Tue Nov 24 19:44:30 1998
From: CharlesFederle at webtv.net (Charles S Federle)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:07:54 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Biomass charcoal
Message-ID: <25661-365B560E-1712@mailtod-141.iap.bryant.webtv.net>

Questions for Jim Acate. James Joyce, and one else wants to
make useful products from bagasse.
Why does cane sugar sell for 20 cents a pound, while the
canes which made the sugar sell for less than one cent a pound?
What method is available to easily change bagasse into any
one of thousands of commerxial liquids
What is the difference between glucose and cane sugar?
What liquid can easily be made from canes that is worth more
than the sugar that was extracted from the harvested cane?
Who wants to convert biomass into a product for sale to me?
These questions are from Charles S. Federle 1440 Cardington
Road, Kettering , Ohio 45409 usa 937 293 1759, who thinks bacteria, in
the nodules on the roots of soybean plants, can also be grown in tanks.

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From rabello at uniserve.com Tue Nov 24 21:38:35 1998
From: rabello at uniserve.com (robert luis rabello)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:07:54 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Glucose/Sucrose
In-Reply-To: <25661-365B560E-1712@mailtod-141.iap.bryant.webtv.net>
Message-ID: <365B70BD.D93A5465@uniserve.com>

> <snip>
> What is the difference between glucose and cane sugar?

<snip>

Not a lot. Glucose and sucrose differ slightly in chemical
composition. Sugar is useful for producing fuel alcohol, and dare I say it,
hydrogen in an anaerobic digester. The latter works well on a large scale.

robert luis rabello
VisionWorks Communications

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From arcate at email.msn.com Tue Nov 24 23:01:20 1998
From: arcate at email.msn.com (Jim Arcate)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:07:54 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Biomass charcoal
Message-ID: <001b01be1829$c0386640$f85cffd0@ibm.ibm.net>

Hello Charles S. Federle & Gasification:

You may be interested in 100% NATURAL "SUGARCANE SWIZZLE STICKS"
Harvested in the rich luscious valleys on the Big Island of Hawaii, these
new SUGARCANE SWIZZLE STICKS are sliced, packaged, and sterilized for
immediate delivery from Plant Research Corp. in Waimanalo, Hawaii

See http://www.sugarnet.com/swizzle/

>>>What liquid can easily be made from canes that is worth more
than the sugar that was extracted from the harvested cane?

How about ethanol from bagasse? See News Release
http://www.eren.doe.gov/golden/waste.html

Energy Department Welcomes New Era in Conversion of Waste To Energy

Golden, Colorado

A new era in ethanol production was ushered in today at the groundbreaking
of a waste-to-ethanol plant in Jennings, Louisiana. This technology
demonstration project supported by the U.S. Department of Energy will
convert sugarcane bagasse -- the waste produced from sugar refining -- into
ethanol. The facility owned by BC International of Dedham, Mass. will
produce about 25 million gallons of ethanol a year. Ethanol is used as a
"clean-burning" transportation fuel and industrial chemical.

In the ethanol conversion process, major plant components are first broken
down to sugars using enzymes and acid solutions. The sugars are then
fermented using the patented organism to produce ethanol. Since these major
plant components make up about seventy-five percent of the mass of trees,
grasses, wood wastes and agricultural wastes the potential expansion of the
corn-based ethanol industry is tremendous.

I hope this is of interest. Remember in the song they said "everybody's
right and everybody's wrong"

Jim Arcate

-----Original Message-----
From: Charles S Federle <CharlesFederle@webtv.net>
To: gasification@crest.org <gasification@crest.org>
Date: Tuesday, November 24, 1998 2:59 PM
Subject: Re: GAS-L: Biomass charcoal

Questions for Jim Arcate. James Joyce, and one else wants to
make useful products from bagasse.
Why does cane sugar sell for 20 cents a pound, while the
canes which made the sugar sell for less than one cent a pound?
What method is available to easily change bagasse into any
one of thousands of commercial liquids
What is the difference between glucose and cane sugar?
Who wants to convert biomass into a product for sale to me?
These questions are from Charles S. Federle 1440 Cardington
Road, Kettering , Ohio 45409 usa 937 293 1759, who thinks bacteria, in
the nodules on the roots of soybean plants, can also be grown in tanks.

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From michael.schwerin at internetMCI.com Wed Nov 25 09:27:29 1998
From: michael.schwerin at internetMCI.com (Michael Schwerin)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:07:54 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Pure Pyrolysis
Message-ID: <0F2Z00CD4FEW4I@PM06SM.PMM.CW.NET>

Looking back through the archives I noticed Frederick MacMullen's claims
regarding "pure pyrolysis". Where these ever substantiated? thanks

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From Murat.Dogru at newcastle.ac.uk Wed Nov 25 12:44:25 1998
From: Murat.Dogru at newcastle.ac.uk (Murat DOGRU)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:07:54 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Throat diameter calculations
Message-ID: <199811251757.RAA02777@cheviot.ncl.ac.uk>

Dear gasification members,

We have a pilot scale (6 kg/h capacity) experimental downdraft
throated gasifier feeding with biomass and dried sewage sludge.
We are trying to scale it up this gasifier up to 2.5 tons/hr
capacity.
In order to design and calculate air intake nozzle diameter and
throat diameter for this scale gasifier; I believe, I need to know
air blast velocity passing through air nozzles.
About this, there is some information upto 200 kW small
scale gasifiers In 'Handbook of Biomass Gasifier Engine Systems',
TB Reed and Agua Das.
Can you advise me that how can get some
information to design big scale (upto 2.5 ton/h sewage sludge)
downdraft gasifiers. Actually, I only need to know air blast velocity
for this scale.

Any information on this topic, will be very appreciated.

M. Dogru
University of Newcastle
UK.

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From tmiles at teleport.com Wed Nov 25 21:49:30 1998
From: tmiles at teleport.com (Tom Miles)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:07:54 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Pure Pyrolysis
In-Reply-To: <0F2Z00CD4FEW4I@PM06SM.PMM.CW.NET>
Message-ID: <199811260302.TAA14891@mail.easystreet.com>

I think he's referring to the Brightstar system which uses an externally
heated reactor. Since they are not adding air/oxygen to the fuel I suppose
you could call it "pure" pyrolysis although it's more appropriately termed
pyrolysis and not gasification.

Tom

At 09:42 AM 11/25/98 -0500, Michael Schwerin wrote:
>Looking back through the archives I noticed Frederick MacMullen's claims
>regarding "pure pyrolysis". Where these ever substantiated? thanks
>
>Gasification List SPONSORS and ARCHIVES
>http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive
>
T.R. Miles tmiles@teleport.com
1470 SW Woodward Way http://www.teleport.com/~tmiles
Portland, OR 97225
Tel 503-292-0107 Fax 503-605-0208
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From denys.f at oag.nl Fri Nov 27 04:08:29 1998
From: denys.f at oag.nl (Frank Denys)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:07:54 2004
Subject: GAS-L: low NOx gasengines
Message-ID: <OG703420361@oag.nl>

Dear members,

Emission of NOx by gasturbines has been (is) a big issue.
Saturation of the fuel gas with water (steam) or dilution with
nitrogen are commonly applied (known). These measures lower the
temperature during the combustion and reduce the amount of
thermal NOx. Ofcourse all NH3 must be removed before the
gasturbine since this directly reacts to NOx during combustion.

My questions are these:

1 Can you comment on this, are there other measures that can
be taken ?

2 Can the above mentioned thermal NOx reduring measures also
be used on gasengines ?

3 What is the maximum concentration of NH3 in fuel gas that a
turbine can handle before you can see right through it ?

Thank You for your comments,

F. Denys
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From arcate at email.msn.com Fri Nov 27 15:49:36 1998
From: arcate at email.msn.com (Jim Arcate)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:07:54 2004
Subject: GAS-L: upgrading biomass charcoal
Message-ID: <001501be1a48$eec66720$275cffd0@ibm.ibm.net>

Gasification:

High ash and alkali biomass like rice and wheat straws are poor fuels.
Washing to leach out components from the raw biomass is one approach.
Converting biomass to charcoal & upgrading the charcoal may be another.

Biomass charcoal from high quality feedstock is good, charcoal fuel from bad
feedstock would be very good.

Alkali Reduction Options: random order (see 5).

1. wash biomass to leach alkali
2. flash pyro to char & fuel gas, low temp steam from char combustion &
superheat using fuel gas
3. gasification & remove alkali in scrubbers or hot gas filters
4. fluid bed combustion, use MgO or other to allow removal of alkali solids
from bed material
5. biomass to charcoal then upgrade the charcoal under "hydrothermal
conditions" (or perhaps a dry method?) to remove undesirable constituents,
chlorine & alkali, etc.

Just thinking ! Comments please.

Jim Arcate

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From ethan at cert.UCR.EDU Fri Nov 27 18:46:36 1998
From: ethan at cert.UCR.EDU (Ethan Altman)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:07:54 2004
Subject: GAS-L: upgrading biomass charcoal
Message-ID: <199811272346.SAA18807@solstice.crest.org>

id RAA16103
Sender: owner-gasification@crest.org
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: gasification

Jim Arcate:

I am actually doing research on rice hulls and rice straw as feedstocks for
the Hynol process. I am having difficulty finding carbon conversions
efficiencies from sawdust and rice hulls as feedstocks from older
gasification and pyrolysis processes. Any information on this subject
would be helpful.

Ethan Altman

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********

On 11/27/98, at 10:59 AM, Jim Arcate wrote:

>Gasification:
>
>High ash and alkali biomass like rice and wheat straws are poor fuels.
>Washing to leach out components from the raw biomass is one approach.
>Converting biomass to charcoal & upgrading the charcoal may be another.
>
>Biomass charcoal from high quality feedstock is good, charcoal fuel from bad
>feedstock would be very good.
>
>Alkali Reduction Options: random order (see 5).
>
>1. wash biomass to leach alkali
>2. flash pyro to char & fuel gas, low temp steam from char combustion &
>superheat using fuel gas
>3. gasification & remove alkali in scrubbers or hot gas filters
>4. fluid bed combustion, use MgO or other to allow removal of alkali solids
>from bed material
>5. biomass to charcoal then upgrade the charcoal under "hydrothermal
>conditions" (or perhaps a dry method?) to remove undesirable constituents,
>chlorine & alkali, etc.
>
>Just thinking ! Comments please.
>
>Jim Arcate
>
>
>
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From VHarris001 at aol.com Sat Nov 28 00:03:42 1998
From: VHarris001 at aol.com (VHarris001@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:07:54 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Re: Throat diameter calculations
Message-ID: <7f38eeb.365f871f@aol.com>

Dear M Dogru,

In the "Handbook of Biomass Downdraft Gasifier Engine Systems" on page 36,
section 5.7.5 you will see that one disadvantage the authors list about the
throated "Imbert" design is that it "cannot be scaled-up to larger sizes
because air enters at the sides and is incapable of penetrating a large-
diameter fuel bed unless the fuel size is increased proportionally."

However, sections 5.7.3, 5.7.4, table 5-1 and table 5-2, you may be able to
calculate the theoretical sizing for a throated gasifier, since (I believe)
air blast velocity will depend on the number of tuyeres used and the gas
production rate for gasification of 2.5 tons of biomass.

The author, Tom Reed goes on to suggest the stratified downdraft gasifier
design be used for larger gasifier systems.

A good source of more specific information about stratified downdraft
gasifiers is in "Fundamentals, Development & Scaleup of the Air-Oxygen
Stratified Downdraft Gasifier", T.B Reed. They scaled that system to 2
tons/hr throughput.

Hope this helps,
Vernon Harris
VHarris001@aol.com

In a message dated 11/25/98 1:00:23 PM Eastern Standard Time,
Murat.Dogru@newcastle.ac.uk writes:

>
> Dear gasification members,
>
> We have a pilot scale (6 kg/h capacity) experimental downdraft
> throated gasifier feeding with biomass and dried sewage sludge.
> We are trying to scale it up this gasifier up to 2.5 tons/hr
> capacity.
> In order to design and calculate air intake nozzle diameter and
> throat diameter for this scale gasifier; I believe, I need to know
> air blast velocity passing through air nozzles.
> About this, there is some information upto 200 kW small
> scale gasifiers In 'Handbook of Biomass Gasifier Engine Systems',
> TB Reed and Agua Das.
> Can you advise me that how can get some
> information to design big scale (upto 2.5 ton/h sewage sludge)
> downdraft gasifiers. Actually, I only need to know air blast velocity
> for this scale.
>
> Any information on this topic, will be very appreciated.
>
> M. Dogru
> University of Newcastle
> UK.
>
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From VHarris001 at aol.com Sat Nov 28 00:27:20 1998
From: VHarris001 at aol.com (VHarris001@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:07:54 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Fluidised Bed Gasifier
Message-ID: <ee1a7dbe.365f8cb7@aol.com>

For anyone interested, there is a good description of the principles, design
and operation of fluidised bed combustors (FBC) at the following site:

http://www.wrfound.org.uk/wrftbfbc.html

It is mostly geared toward incineration of MSW but briefly discusses
gasification simply by adjusting operating perameters of the combustor.

It does not mention what gas flow velocities are required to fluidise the fuel
bed. Does anyone know general guidelines for velocities? How about other
sites that give good explanation of fluidised beds?

Thanks,
Vernon Harris
VHarris001@aol.com
Gasification List SPONSORS and ARCHIVES
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From dscpower at nde.vsnl.net.in Sun Nov 29 12:43:34 1998
From: dscpower at nde.vsnl.net.in (G.C. Datta Roy)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:07:54 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Biomass charcoal
Message-ID: <199811291743.MAA24327@solstice.crest.org>

You get only 10%sugar from the cane on wight basis. Then there is the large
difference between ex-factory price and retail price. In Brazil they do
direct fermentation of sugar cane juice for making ethanol. This is mostly
used as transportation fuel "Gasohol". Falling petroleum prices have made
this operation commercially unsustainable
-----Original Message-----
From: Charles S Federle <CharlesFederle@webtv.net>
To: gasification@crest.org <gasification@crest.org>
Date: 25 November 1998 17:02
Subject: Re: GAS-L: Biomass charcoal

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From PowerSou at aol.com Sun Nov 29 16:59:08 1998
From: PowerSou at aol.com (PowerSou@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:07:54 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Rmove from list
Message-ID: <5671e05e.3661c6b1@aol.com>

Remvoe form list
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From graeme at powerlink.co.nz Sun Nov 29 22:28:24 1998
From: graeme at powerlink.co.nz (Graeme Williams)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:07:54 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Re: gasification-digest V1 #846
Message-ID: <199811292235.LAA23167@powerlink.co.nz>

> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 17:54:28 +0000
> From: "Murat DOGRU" <Murat.Dogru@newcastle.ac.uk>
> Subject: GAS-L: Throat diameter calculations
>
> Dear gasification members,
>
> We have a pilot scale (6 kg/h capacity) experimental downdraft
> throated gasifier feeding with biomass and dried sewage sludge.
> We are trying to scale it up this gasifier up to 2.5 tons/hr
> capacity.
> In order to design and calculate air intake nozzle diameter and
> throat diameter for this scale gasifier; I believe, I need to know
> air blast velocity passing through air nozzles.
> About this, there is some information upto 200 kW small
> scale gasifiers In 'Handbook of Biomass Gasifier Engine Systems',
> TB Reed and Agua Das.
> Can you advise me that how can get some
> information to design big scale (upto 2.5 ton/h sewage sludge)
> downdraft gasifiers. Actually, I only need to know air blast velocity
> for this scale.
>
> Any information on this topic, will be very appreciated.
>
> M. Dogru
> University of Newcastle
> UK.
Hi Murant,

When you discuss air velocity, you must also talk about air volume, and
when you are considering these two factors they relate to particle size.

In a down-draught throated gasifier, air becomes proportional to the
particle size, and the particle size then sets the sizing parameters to
which then limits the dimensional size of the oxidation zone. Generally
speaking, the smaller the particle, the smaller the parameters, that is if
you need tar free gas.

There is no magical formula in any book that will scale up this fact from
6kg/hour to 2.5T/hour, unless you change the size of the fuel particle.
Even then the sizing up is a constructional challenge as to the actual
design, evening out viables imposed in creating the process.

It is unfortunate that your bench scale gasifier only operates at 6kg/hour,
for if it is producing a good quality tar free gas, it has created a false
sense of understanding. With such a small gasification parameter, many of
the problems manifested by larger dimensions have yet to be experienced.

The literature is full of formulas and other 'useful' information. When
you find one written by a manufacturer telling you how it's really
achieved, the process will be in commercial production.

Regards

DOUG WILLIAMS

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From rcbrown at iastate.edu Mon Nov 30 08:28:14 1998
From: rcbrown at iastate.edu (Robert C Brown)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:07:54 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Fluidised Bed Gasifier
In-Reply-To: <ee1a7dbe.365f8cb7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19981130074123.007dc790@pop-3.iastate.edu>

See Fluidization, 2nd Ed. by Kunii & Levenspiel. Velocity should be 3-5
times the minimum velocity required to fluidize the bed material, which is
a function of particles size and density and gas density. On the web try
http://chemengineer.miningco.com/library/weekly/aa112398.htm. An on-line
search will yield lots of information.

Robert Brown
Iowa State University

At 12:40 AM 11/28/98 EST, you wrote:
>For anyone interested, there is a good description of the principles, design
>and operation of fluidised bed combustors (FBC) at the following site:
>
>http://www.wrfound.org.uk/wrftbfbc.html
>
>It is mostly geared toward incineration of MSW but briefly discusses
>gasification simply by adjusting operating perameters of the combustor.
>
>It does not mention what gas flow velocities are required to fluidise the
fuel
>bed. Does anyone know general guidelines for velocities? How about other
>sites that give good explanation of fluidised beds?
>
>Thanks,
>Vernon Harris
>VHarris001@aol.com
>Gasification List SPONSORS and ARCHIVES
>http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive
>
Robert C. Brown
Iowa State University
Department of Mechanical Engineering
2020 H. M. Black Bldg.
Ames, IA 50011
Tel: 515-294-8733
Fax: 515-294-3261
E-mail: rcbrown@iastate.edu
http://www.eng.iastate.edu/coe/me/homepage.html
http://webbook2.ameslab.gov/
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From r at costarica.net Mon Nov 30 10:35:36 1998
From: r at costarica.net (Roy Lent)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:07:54 2004
Subject: GAS-L: jungle gasifiers
In-Reply-To: <ee1a7dbe.365f8cb7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <199811301535.KAA10584@solstice.crest.org>

Hi all,
I joined this list with the idea of having a place to ask future
questions. I find it, at least at this time, to be involved more in
high tech gasifiers. I will have to obtain a tractor and a truck and
outfit them with gasifiers to use bamboo chips as fuel in a
ecologically oriented project in Costa Rica. I very definitely want
to use a "low" tech system as these will have to work under "jungle"
conditions! At this time I feel that I should aim at getting these
vehicles outfitted with over-sized gasoline engines and then
convert them to gasifiers.

Am I in the right place and which way should I leap?

Roy Lent
r@costarica.net

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From REEDTB at compuserve.com Mon Nov 30 14:37:36 1998
From: REEDTB at compuserve.com (Tom Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:07:54 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Theoretical Yield of Charcoal
Message-ID: <199811301450_MC2-61FD-1249@compuserve.com>

Dear All:

There is no "theoretical" yield of charcoal (in spite of what Mike Antal
says). I prefer to think of it as XCOAL where X is the degree of
devolatilization or volatile cracking. Normal charcoaling at 450C produces
typically 25% charcoal with 20% volatiles, the typical yield also in our
inverted downdraft gasifier. Larger pieces can crack more volatilve for
higher yields. Chemical treatment (ZnCl2 and Na2CO3) can increase yield.
High pressure can produce up to 50% in Antal's process. But if you don't
measure the volatile and energy content you don't know how charcoally it
is. Get a prox-ult analysis.

Higher temperatures can produce much smaller yields like 15% for
metallurgical charcoal (600C) or 10% for activated charcoal (800C).

So the original question is meaningless without a lot more specification.

Yours, TOM
REED

Message text written by kchishol
>
Elk is getting in the order of 25% charcoal yield from his
sawdust charcoal operation. If the theoritically attainable
maximum yield was 26%, he is doing phenomenal. However, if
the theoretical maximum is 50%, then he has lotsa
opportunity for improvement.

I would hypothesize that the maximum yield attainable in a
real world operation would be from a charcoal retorting
operation, running on bone dry sawdust. Would anyone have
data on what yield could be expected in this case?

The next question is a bit more difficult.: How can
pyrolysis gases be processed to recover carbon?
Specifically, the so-called "creosote" is a low grade form
of "wood coke", in that it still has some volatiles present.
The creosote or wood tar fraction is basically a complex
C-O-H compound of some sort. If the -O-H elements could be
removed, then there would be an additional yield of solid C.
How can this be done? How much additional carbon yield could
be attained, if this was possible?

Kevin Chisholm
<

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From REEDTB at compuserve.com Mon Nov 30 14:55:44 1998
From: REEDTB at compuserve.com (Tom Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:07:54 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Tom Reed Back home
Message-ID: <199811301508_MC2-61F5-8B7A@compuserve.com>

Dear Friends:

I have been away from my office in Denver since Nov. 2. About Nov. 17 my
mail box reached its limit of 250 messages. I will be back home in Golden
on Nov. 30.

If you sent me a message which I may not have received, please find it and
send again (blessings on E-mail).

Thanks, TOM REED
Gasification List SPONSORS and ARCHIVES
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From VHarris001 at aol.com Mon Nov 30 18:49:42 1998
From: VHarris001 at aol.com (VHarris001@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:07:54 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Fluidised Bed Gasifier
Message-ID: <226731b3.36633216@aol.com>

Robert,
Thanks for the site address, that calculator should be handy!
Vernon Harris

In a message dated 11/30/98 8:43:35 AM Eastern Standard Time,
rcbrown@iastate.edu writes:

> See Fluidization, 2nd Ed. by Kunii & Levenspiel. Velocity should be 3-5
> times the minimum velocity required to fluidize the bed material, which is
> a function of particles size and density and gas density. On the web try
> http://chemengineer.miningco.com/library/weekly/aa112398.htm. An on-line
> search will yield lots of information.
>
> Robert Brown
> Iowa State University
>
> At 12:40 AM 11/28/98 EST, you wrote:
> >For anyone interested, there is a good description of the principles,
> design
> >and operation of fluidised bed combustors (FBC) at the following site:
> >
> >http://www.wrfound.org.uk/wrftbfbc.html
> >
> >It is mostly geared toward incineration of MSW but briefly discusses
> >gasification simply by adjusting operating perameters of the combustor.
> >
> >It does not mention what gas flow velocities are required to fluidise the
> fuel
> >bed. Does anyone know general guidelines for velocities? How about other
> >sites that give good explanation of fluidised beds?
> >
> >Thanks,
> >Vernon Harris
> >VHarris001@aol.com
Gasification List SPONSORS and ARCHIVES
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From jaturnbu at ix.netcom.com Mon Nov 30 19:40:18 1998
From: jaturnbu at ix.netcom.com (jaturnbu@ix.netcom.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:07:54 2004
Subject: GAS-L: jungle gasifiers
In-Reply-To: <ee1a7dbe.365f8cb7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3661AF79.42B3@ix.netcom.com>

Roy,

The experience curve using gasifiers in developing countries where the
capabilities for operation and maintenance of units may be limited is
very shallow. In fact, the World Bank funded a considerable number of
units in the early 80's, and virtually none are still operating. If
you are interested in heat only, the experience of the people on
Prince Edward Island may be useful. Otherwise, I suggest you be
extremely conservative. I spent a good deal of time surveying the
status of technology development a year or so ago and concluded there
are many more promises than accomplishments.

What capacity are you looking at? If you are thinking about 100kW
range, you probably should contact Dr. Mukunda's people in Bangalore.
The two other developers that I believe really know well the
challenges of reliable operation are Doug Williams and Malcolm
Lefcort. All of these folk are on this list. (Wish that Doug had been
able to find the market for his system, but even if he no longer is
marketing a unit, he has great know-how.)

Jane Turnbull
Peninsula Energy Partners

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From arnt at c2i.net Mon Nov 30 20:36:14 1998
From: arnt at c2i.net (Arnt Karlsen)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:07:54 2004
Subject: GAS-L: jungle gasifiers
In-Reply-To: <ee1a7dbe.365f8cb7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <366344EF.ACA7E4DC@c2i.net>

Roy Lent wrote:

> I will have to obtain a tractor and a truck and
> outfit them with gasifiers to use bamboo chips as fuel in a
> ecologically oriented project in Costa Rica. I very definitely want
> to use a "low" tech system as these will have to work under "jungle"
> conditions! At this time I feel that I should aim at getting these
> vehicles outfitted with over-sized gasoline engines and then
> convert them to gasifiers.
>
> Am I in the right place and which way should I leap?

..yeah, first go get the "Gengas, the Swedish (WWII)
experience" book from Tom Reed.

Good luck from Arnt

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BioEnergy Lists: Gasifiers & Gasification

November 1998 Gasification Archive