November 2000 Gasification Archive

From p.m.davies at bigpond.com.au Wed Nov 1 00:19:31 2000
From: p.m.davies at bigpond.com.au (Peter M. Davies)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:46 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Transport Costs
In-Reply-To: <OF5EE4216F.D9366152-ON4A256989.007F83B4@sri.org.au>
Message-ID: <000501c043c3$61e5aea0$a11a28cb@M.Davies>

The optimum bulk density for road transport is around 260kg/m3 to maximise
transport economy. Pelleting or briquetting greatly exceed this which
raises an interesting question; what happens when you optimise densification
to meet transport economies rather than maximum compaction ?

Cheers,
Peter

The Gasification List is sponsored by
USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/
and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com

Other Sponsors, Archives and Information
http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm
http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive
http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml
http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml

From c.downing at sri.org.au Wed Nov 1 01:05:55 2000
From: c.downing at sri.org.au (Chris Downing)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:46 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Transport Costs
Message-ID: <OF21E12196.4C5C4124-ON4A25698A.00214808@sri.org.au>

260 kg/m3 is quite a bit higher than we usually get with bagasse in-truck.

Regards,
Chris Downing

"Peter M. Davies"
<p.m.davies@bigpon To: <gasification@crest.org>
d.com.au> cc:
Sent by: Subject: Re: GAS-L: Transport Costs
owner-gasification
@crest.org

01/11/2000 15:18
Please respond to
gasification

The optimum bulk density for road transport is around 260kg/m3 to maximise
transport economy. Pelleting or briquetting greatly exceed this which
raises an interesting question; what happens when you optimise
densification
to meet transport economies rather than maximum compaction ?

Cheers,
Peter

The Gasification List is sponsored by
USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/
and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com

From costaeec at kcnet.com Wed Nov 1 12:21:31 2000
From: costaeec at kcnet.com (Jim Dunham)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:46 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Transport Costs
Message-ID: <000a01c04427$74997040$1b65f0d1@default>

Peter,

Good question!

The cost of densification is slightly reduced, but so is the quality of the
pellet or briquette. If not fully densified, they tend to fall apart. This
causes poor material handling, dust, and poor burn characteristics (smoke)

Jim Dunham
-----Original Message-----
From: Peter M. Davies <p.m.davies@bigpond.com.au>
To: gasification@crest.org <gasification@crest.org>
Date: Tuesday, October 31, 2000 11:18 PM
Subject: Re: GAS-L: Transport Costs

>The optimum bulk density for road transport is around 260kg/m3 to maximise
>transport economy. Pelleting or briquetting greatly exceed this which
>raises an interesting question; what happens when you optimise
densification
>to meet transport economies rather than maximum compaction ?
>
>Cheers,
>Peter
>
>
>
>The Gasification List is sponsored by
>USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/
>and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com
>
>Other Sponsors, Archives and Information
>http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm
>http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive
>http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml
>http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
>http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml
>

The Gasification List is sponsored by
USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/
and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com

From p.m.davies at bigpond.com.au Wed Nov 1 22:17:22 2000
From: p.m.davies at bigpond.com.au (Peter M. Davies)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:46 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Transport Costs
In-Reply-To: <OF21E12196.4C5C4124-ON4A25698A.00214808@sri.org.au>
Message-ID: <002301c0447b$85c7bda0$a61a28cb@M.Davies>

Just my point, loose biomass does not usually go anywhere near the
mass/volume limitation of the truck (eucalypt or other high density wood
chips excepted) resulting in higher per tonne transport costs. Over short
haulage distances (<50km) loading/unloading times become more critical which
is also why "economic" transport distances for biomass fuels are often
quoted as <80km.

Cheers,
Peter

>
> 260 kg/m3 is quite a bit higher than we usually get with bagasse in-truck.
>
> Regards,
> Chris Downing
>

The Gasification List is sponsored by
USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/
and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com

From p.m.davies at bigpond.com.au Wed Nov 1 22:17:24 2000
From: p.m.davies at bigpond.com.au (Peter M. Davies)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:46 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Transport Costs
In-Reply-To: <000a01c04427$74997040$1b65f0d1@default>
Message-ID: <002201c0447b$82d5f4e0$a61a28cb@M.Davies>

Jim,

.... all true comments when applied to conventional densification and
particularly for domestic fuel products, but...

If we are designing a system to optimise transport economy and burning
characteristics by reducing moisture content of loose biomass forms such as
bagasse, crop residues etc (narrowing generalities Chris !) for power plant
use then:

1. There is no need for aggressive size reduction, simple chopping for ease
of bulk handling is all that is required for pre processing prior to
densification. Little dust would be produced and expensive energy intensive
processing equipment is not required.

2. Densification can be via a simple roller mill with smooth rollers, no
expensive machining required (to create scolloped drums) and much higher
output and lower operation costs than other densification technologies.
Lower target densities mean equipment does not have to be as massive, it
could even be made portable. The aim is to raise the average density to the
optimum level so crumbling or irregular shapes are not necessarily a
problem. The more so when you consider the end user (power plant) will most
likely use some form of pulverising equipment to transfer the biomass to the
combustion/gasification chamber.

3. Compression is aided by pre heating the biomass to around 200 C. This
softens the fibres allowing easier deformation. The same process can carry
out the moisture reduction as well. Thomas Stubbings "Airless drying"
system would be an ideal candidate given its high drying efficiency and heat
transfer characteristics.

4. Raise the temperature to 270 C and torrefaction results in a smokeless,
hydrophobic fuel which can be stored in the open with little risk of weather
or biological degradation. Yes there is a 10% energy loss in this process
but this is offset by lower structural losses during storage and the friable
nature of torrefied biomass makes it easy to pulverise for use. Large
storage areas adjacent to the power plant are not required since the treated
biomass can be stored relatively safely in the field until needed allowing
easier scheduling of transport (in dry climates such as much of Australia
there is a wildfire risk in rural areas, their are simple risk reduction
strategies available).

4. Process heat for drying/torrefaction can be generated by burning a
portion of the biomass itself. Consider that in a conventional "green
burning" plant which burns high moisture content fuel a portion of the fuel
energy is used in situ to expel this moisture, so the only energy question
is which is more efficient; drying in the boiler or drying in a portable
plant in the field. I would suggest that the differences in energy
utilisation are not as significant (if found) as transport economies.

5. Another result would be a relatively uniform moisture and handling
characteristic fuel is delivered to the plant. There would be economies in
plant design, construction and operation for this reason alone. It wouldn't
matter if their were different biomass sources (woodchips and crop residues
for example) if it was all torrefied. The same handling equipment could be
used for either.

Cheers,
Peter

> Peter,
>
> Good question!
>
> The cost of densification is slightly reduced, but so is the quality of
the
> pellet or briquette. If not fully densified, they tend to fall apart. This
> causes poor material handling, dust, and poor burn characteristics (smoke)
>
> Jim Dunham
>
>
> >The optimum bulk density for road transport is around 260kg/m3 to
maximise
> >transport economy. Pelleting or briquetting greatly exceed this which
> >raises an interesting question; what happens when you optimise
> densification
> >to meet transport economies rather than maximum compaction ?
> >
> >Cheers,
> >Peter
>

The Gasification List is sponsored by
USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/
and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com

From mike at envirofuel.co.uk Thu Nov 2 13:01:52 2000
From: mike at envirofuel.co.uk (mike jones)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:46 2004
Subject: GAS-L: "Airless drying")
In-Reply-To: <000a01c04427$74997040$1b65f0d1@default>
Message-ID: <000f01be3679$0df8bb60$3007dbc3@john>

----- Original Message -----
From: Peter M. Davies <p.m.davies@bigpond.com.au>
To: <gasification@crest.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2000 2:57 AM
Subject: Re: GAS-L: Transport Costs

What does this envolve, any further info available (Thomas Stubbings
"Airless drying")

Mike Jones

The Gasification List is sponsored by
USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/
and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com

From cmsablio at unity.ncsu.edu Thu Nov 2 13:25:35 2000
From: cmsablio at unity.ncsu.edu (Cristina Sabliov)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:46 2004
Subject: GAS-L: propane flame temperature
Message-ID: <200011021825.NAA05330@crest.solarhost.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Dear Tom Reed,

Do you happen to know what is the flame temperature of a regular gas stove?
(of course, you do). But would you share this information with me?

Thank you, Cristina.

The Gasification List is sponsored by
USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/
and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com

From p.m.davies at bigpond.com.au Thu Nov 2 18:49:06 2000
From: p.m.davies at bigpond.com.au (Peter M. Davies)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:46 2004
Subject: GAS-L: "Airless drying")
In-Reply-To: <000a01c04427$74997040$1b65f0d1@default>
Message-ID: <000401c04527$951694a0$221828cb@M.Davies>

Thomas is I believe on this list so maybe he would like to comment directly.

"Airless Drying" uses superheated steam at atmospheric pressure as the
drying medium, no expensive or pressurised vessels required and can operate
off a biomass fueled stove for portable applications. Thomas has both batch
and continuous designs.

His website is:

http://www.dryers-airless.mcmail.com/

See also Jim Arcates excellent website at:

http://www.techtp.com/

Cheers,
Peter

----- Original Message -----
From: mike jones <mike@envirofuel.co.uk>
To: <gasification@crest.org>
Sent: Sunday, January 03, 1999 4:54 AM
Subject: GAS-L: "Airless drying")

> What does this envolve, any further info available (Thomas Stubbings
> "Airless drying")
>
> Mike Jones

The Gasification List is sponsored by
USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/
and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com

From heat-win at cwcom.net Fri Nov 3 10:43:37 2000
From: heat-win at cwcom.net (T J Stubbing)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:46 2004
Subject: GAS-L: "Airless drying")
Message-ID: <200011031543.KAA20984@crest.solarhost.com>

References: <000a01c04427$74997040$1b65f0d1@default> <002201c0447b$82d5f4e0$a61a28cb@M.Davies> <000f01be3679$0df8bb60$3007dbc3@john> <000401c04527$951694a0$221828cb@M.Davies>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Thans, Peter!

Mike can call me at +44 (0) 1584 890 827 or anyone can e-mail me with a
description of what they want to dry and I will do my best to arrange for them
to be offered an appropriate machine by a manufacturing licensee.

Regards,

Thomas

"Peter M. Davies" wrote:

> Thomas is I believe on this list so maybe he would like to comment directly.
>
> "Airless Drying" uses superheated steam at atmospheric pressure as the
> drying medium, no expensive or pressurised vessels required and can operate
> off a biomass fueled stove for portable applications. Thomas has both batch
> and continuous designs.
>
> His website is:
>
> http://www.dryers-airless.mcmail.com/
>
> See also Jim Arcates excellent website at:
>
> http://www.techtp.com/
>
> Cheers,
> Peter
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: mike jones <mike@envirofuel.co.uk>
> To: <gasification@crest.org>
> Sent: Sunday, January 03, 1999 4:54 AM
> Subject: GAS-L: "Airless drying")
>
> > What does this envolve, any further info available (Thomas Stubbings
> > "Airless drying")
> >
> > Mike Jones

The Gasification List is sponsored by
USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/
and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com

From Reedtb2 at cs.com Fri Nov 3 12:41:43 2000
From: Reedtb2 at cs.com (Reedtb2@cs.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:46 2004
Subject: GAS-L: propane flame temperature
Message-ID: <ae.cb0775a.27345232@cs.com>

Dear Christina:

According to the North American COMBUSTION HANDBOOK, Vol 1, p. 12, the
adiabatic flame temperature of propane/air is 1967 C. For natural gas it is
1941C.

People pay much too much attention to flame temperature and not enough to
velocity and variation with air fuel ratio.

Yours truly, TOM REED BEF

In a message dated 11/2/00 11:39:26 AM Mountain Standard Time,
cmsablio@unity.ncsu.edu writes:

<<
Dear Tom Reed,

Do you happen to know what is the flame temperature of a regular gas stove?
(of course, you do). But would you share this information with me?

Thank you, Cristina.
>>
The Gasification List is sponsored by
USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/
and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com

From claudio.dellarocca at tin.it Tue Nov 7 04:59:48 2000
From: claudio.dellarocca at tin.it (claudio della rocca)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:46 2004
Subject: GAS-L: tps cracking
Message-ID: <001401c048a1$03b98bc0$7db8abd4@anaky>

i'm a new subscrite of the meiling list, i'don't
use it in the better mode, i hope that i learn.
the tps technology for hot gas cleanup, CFB
secondary reactor with dolomite, can cause deactivation of catalyst by physical
disappearance because dolomite is very soft material?

thank you and excuse me for my english
claudio

From jgordes at earthlink.net Fri Nov 10 11:41:55 2000
From: jgordes at earthlink.net (jgordes)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:46 2004
Subject: GAS-L: propane flame temperature
In-Reply-To: <ae.cb0775a.27345232@cs.com>
Message-ID: <4.2.2.20001110113146.00ae6b70@127.0.0.1>

Dear All,

I need some information on the availability of production tax credits
for biomass projects. Among my questions are:

1) What is the amount per kWh?

2) Is this for closed loop projects only (with biomass plantations?) What
are the other ground rules?

3) Is anyone actually using it? Who? Where?

4) If affirmative to the prior question, what are the technologies
(boiler/combustion vs. gasification) being used ?

5) Are there any other web sites or groups which specialize in this?

Thank you for your help.

Best Regards,
Joel N. Gordes
Environmental Energy Solutions
P.O. Box 101
Riverton, CT 06065
(860) 379-2430

"Dedicated to executing ideas, not killing them!"

Be sure to visit our web site at:
http://home.earthlink.net/~jgordes

The Gasification List is sponsored by
USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/
and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com

From pbadger at bioenergyupdate.com Thu Nov 16 19:00:01 2000
From: pbadger at bioenergyupdate.com (Phillip Badger)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:46 2004
Subject: GAS-L: propane flame temperature
In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20001110113146.00ae6b70@127.0.0.1>
Message-ID: <000a01c05029$bf56ec80$0c01a8c0@mindspring.com>

We publish a "National Directory of Federal and State Biomass Tax Incentives
and Subsidies" (publication Number 92717). It is available for $15 postage
paid from General Bioenergy, Inc. We can take MasterCard or Visa (provide
number, expiration date, name as it appears on card) or checks made out to
General Bioenergy, Inc.

We also have over 200 other publications related to bioenergy.

Phillip C. Badger, President
General Bioenergy, Inc.
3115 Northington Court
P.O. Box 26
Florence, AL 35630
Phone +1 256 740 5634
Primary Fax +1 256 740 5635 (Backup fax +1 256 740 5530)
Email <mailto:pbadger@bioenergyupdate.com>

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-gasification@crest.org
[mailto:owner-gasification@crest.org]On Behalf Of jgordes
Sent: Friday, November 10, 2000 10:33 AM
To: gasification@crest.org
Subject: Re: GAS-L: propane flame temperature

Dear All,

I need some information on the availability of production tax credits
for biomass projects. Among my questions are:

1) What is the amount per kWh?

2) Is this for closed loop projects only (with biomass plantations?) What
are the other ground rules?

3) Is anyone actually using it? Who? Where?

4) If affirmative to the prior question, what are the technologies
(boiler/combustion vs. gasification) being used ?

5) Are there any other web sites or groups which specialize in this?

Thank you for your help.

Best Regards,
Joel N. Gordes
Environmental Energy Solutions
P.O. Box 101
Riverton, CT 06065
(860) 379-2430

"Dedicated to executing ideas, not killing them!"

Be sure to visit our web site at:
http://home.earthlink.net/~jgordes

The Gasification List is sponsored by
USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/
and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com

From claudio.dellarocca at tin.it Mon Nov 20 14:53:59 2000
From: claudio.dellarocca at tin.it (claudio della rocca)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:46 2004
Subject: GAS-L: scrubber with oil
Message-ID: <001501c0532b$16cce600$f8baabd4@anaky>

i'm searching for more information about scrub with
oil for tar removal
can they help me?

thanks

claudio della rocca

From jdmurphy at cit.ie Tue Nov 21 07:31:20 2000
From: jdmurphy at cit.ie (Jerry D Murphy)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:46 2004
Subject: GAS-L:
Message-ID: <20001121121113796.AAA338@mail.cit.ie@bc-a264ljdm.cit.ie>

To whom it may concern.

Previously a number of reports/books were listed on this mail group. I am
interested in purchasing one.

Evaluation of Gasification and Novel Thermal Processes for the treatment of
MSW - W.Niessen et al., 1996 NREL report by Camp Dresser and McKee on MSW
Conversion Processes. ISBN 1-890607-15-0.

Any information on how to purchase?

Regards

Jerry

The Gasification List is sponsored by
USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/
and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com

From szakreski at climateservices.com Tue Nov 21 11:27:40 2000
From: szakreski at climateservices.com (Sheldon Zakreski)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:46 2004
Subject: GAS-L:
Message-ID: <sa1a317b.029@climateservices.com>

Jerry, it looks as though that report is published by the U.S. National Renewable Energy Laboratory. You should be able to get all the information you need at their website http://www.nrel.gov. Since its about 4 years old, you might be able to download it for free off their website.

Sheldon Zakreski
Policy Analyst

Trexler and Associates, Inc.
1131 S.E. River Forest Rd.
Portland, OR 97267
Phone: 503-786-0559
Fax: 503-786-9859
website: http://www.climateservices.com

>>> Jerry D Murphy <jdmurphy@cit.ie> 11/21/00 04:11AM >>>
To whom it may concern.

Previously a number of reports/books were listed on this mail group. I am
interested in purchasing one.

Evaluation of Gasification and Novel Thermal Processes for the treatment of
MSW - W.Niessen et al., 1996 NREL report by Camp Dresser and McKee on MSW
Conversion Processes. ISBN 1-890607-15-0.

Any information on how to purchase?

Regards

Jerry

The Gasification List is sponsored by
USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/
and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com

From claudio.dellarocca at tin.it Wed Nov 22 06:11:19 2000
From: claudio.dellarocca at tin.it (claudio della rocca)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:46 2004
Subject: R: GAS-L:
In-Reply-To: <20001121121113796.AAA338@mail.cit.ie@bc-a264ljdm.cit.ie>
Message-ID: <004201c05474$582a98a0$76b8abd4@anaky>

Mister Jerry D Murphy

I'm found the book on the net (gratis), i don't remenber where it was, but i
thing on NREL web site
the digital format is too much big for attached it on e-mail

regards

claudio della rocca

----- Original Message -----
From: Jerry D Murphy <jdmurphy@cit.ie>
To: <gasification@crest.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2000 1:11 PM
Subject: GAS-L:

> To whom it may concern.
>
> Previously a number of reports/books were listed on this mail group. I am
> interested in purchasing one.
>
> Evaluation of Gasification and Novel Thermal Processes for the treatment
of
> MSW - W.Niessen et al., 1996 NREL report by Camp Dresser and McKee on MSW
> Conversion Processes. ISBN 1-890607-15-0.
>
> Any information on how to purchase?
>
> Regards
>
> Jerry
>
> The Gasification List is sponsored by
> USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/
> and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com
>
> Other Sponsors, Archives and Information
> http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm
> http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive
> http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml
> http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
> http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml

The Gasification List is sponsored by
USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/
and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com

From enecon at ozemail.com.au Wed Nov 22 19:32:25 2000
From: enecon at ozemail.com.au (Jim Bland)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:46 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Evaluation of Gasification and Novel Thermal Processes
In-Reply-To: <20001121121113796.AAA338@mail.cit.ie@bc-a264ljdm.cit.ie>
Message-ID: <005001c054e3$e234e2c0$0682140a@jim>

Jerry,

You can download it from http://www.osti.gov/bridge/search.easy.jsp . In
the "search" field, type "author"; in the "for" field type "niessen", and
hit "search". Two hits come up, and the one you're looking for is one of
them. But it's 14 687 kB, so you'll need a few hours to download it.

Regards,

Jim
----- Original Message -----
From: claudio della rocca <claudio.dellarocca@tin.it>
To: <gasification@crest.org>
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2000 8:09 PM
Subject: R: GAS-L:

> Mister Jerry D Murphy
>
> I'm found the book on the net (gratis), i don't remenber where it was, but
i
> thing on NREL web site
> the digital format is too much big for attached it on e-mail
>
> regards
>
> claudio della rocca
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jerry D Murphy <jdmurphy@cit.ie>
> To: <gasification@crest.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2000 1:11 PM
> Subject: GAS-L:
>
>
> > To whom it may concern.
> >
> > Previously a number of reports/books were listed on this mail group. I
am
> > interested in purchasing one.
> >
> > Evaluation of Gasification and Novel Thermal Processes for the treatment
> of
> > MSW - W.Niessen et al., 1996 NREL report by Camp Dresser and McKee on
MSW
> > Conversion Processes. ISBN 1-890607-15-0.
> >
> > Any information on how to purchase?
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Jerry
> >
> > The Gasification List is sponsored by
> > USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/
> > and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com
> >
> > Other Sponsors, Archives and Information
> > http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm
> > http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive
> > http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml
> > http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
> > http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml
>
> The Gasification List is sponsored by
> USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/
> and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com
>
> Other Sponsors, Archives and Information
> http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm
> http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive
> http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml
> http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
> http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml
>

The Gasification List is sponsored by
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and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com

From p.m.davies at bigpond.com.au Wed Nov 22 21:22:05 2000
From: p.m.davies at bigpond.com.au (Peter M. Davies)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:46 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Gasifying tars
In-Reply-To: <20001121121113796.AAA338@mail.cit.ie@bc-a264ljdm.cit.ie>
Message-ID: <003001c054f3$763bf1c0$301828cb@M.Davies>

Dear All,

Can anyone tell me whether you can add a tar rich gas stream, say from off
gases of a charcoal kiln, into a low tar design downdraft gasifier operating
on wood (or any other design for that matter) in order to "clean" this gas
by breaking the tars down for use in a IC engine ?

Cheers,

Peter Davies

The Gasification List is sponsored by
USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/
and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com

From tk at tke.dk Thu Nov 23 04:31:00 2000
From: tk at tke.dk (Thomas Koch)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:46 2004
Subject: Sv: GAS-L: Gasifying tars
Message-ID: <000201c05538$9ac7f8a0$048744c0@image.image.dk>

Dear Peter

Yes you can.
If you use a good quality biomasschar and a "correct" goemetry where you inject the tar you obtain a gas with about 5-15 mg tar pr m3 gas.

Best regards

Thomas Koch
TK Energi AS
Stationsvej 4
4621 Gadstrup
Denmark
+ 45 46191554

-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
Fra: Peter M. Davies <p.m.davies@bigpond.com.au>
Til: gasification@crest.org <gasification@crest.org>
Dato: 23. november 2000 03:17
Emne: GAS-L: Gasifying tars

>Dear All,
>
>Can anyone tell me whether you can add a tar rich gas stream, say from off
>gases of a charcoal kiln, into a low tar design downdraft gasifier operating
>on wood (or any other design for that matter) in order to "clean" this gas
>by breaking the tars down for use in a IC engine ?
>
>Cheers,
>
>Peter Davies
>
>The Gasification List is sponsored by
>USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/
>and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com
>
>Other Sponsors, Archives and Information
>http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm
>http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive
>http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml
>http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
>http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml
>

The Gasification List is sponsored by
USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/
and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com

From claudio.dellarocca at tin.it Thu Nov 23 07:35:59 2000
From: claudio.dellarocca at tin.it (claudio della rocca)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:46 2004
Subject: R: GAS-L: Gasifying tars
In-Reply-To: <20001121121113796.AAA338@mail.cit.ie@bc-a264ljdm.cit.ie>
Message-ID: <002401c05549$5c192820$f2baabd4@anaky>

Susanto Herri from department of chemical engineering, institute of
technology, Bandung Indonesia
and Beenackers Antonie from department of chemical engineering, university
of Groningen, Netherlends
studing a moving bed gasifier with internal recycle that have great capacity
to breaking the tar
if you sobstitute a recycle gas with external gas maybe it's possible to
breaking the tar of extenal source

claudio della rocca
excuseme for my english

----- Original Message -----
From: Peter M. Davies <p.m.davies@bigpond.com.au>
To: <gasification@crest.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2000 3:16 AM
Subject: GAS-L: Gasifying tars

> Dear All,
>
> Can anyone tell me whether you can add a tar rich gas stream, say from off
> gases of a charcoal kiln, into a low tar design downdraft gasifier
operating
> on wood (or any other design for that matter) in order to "clean" this gas
> by breaking the tars down for use in a IC engine ?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Peter Davies
>
> The Gasification List is sponsored by
> USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/
> and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com
>
> Other Sponsors, Archives and Information
> http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm
> http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive
> http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml
> http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
> http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml
>

The Gasification List is sponsored by
USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/
and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com

From claush at et.dtu.dk Thu Nov 23 09:51:13 2000
From: claush at et.dtu.dk (Claus Hindsgaul)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:46 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Gasifying tars
In-Reply-To: <20001121121113796.AAA338@mail.cit.ie@bc-a264ljdm.cit.ie>
Message-ID: <00112315411102.00999@reber.reberbane>

Sure you can.

All low-tar down-draft gasifiers all have a high-temperature tar-reducing
zone (>1000C).
You will have to add your gas stream somewhere before this zone. Enough
heating energy (normally from combustion with injected air or oxygen) must be
provided to sustain the elevated temperatures. This may well be the factor
limiting the capacity of the gasifier to recieve your tarry gas. But
remember, that your tars still represents a usable heating-value.

Sincerely,
Claus Hindsgaul

Torsdag 23. november 2000 03:16 skrev du:
> Dear All,
>
> Can anyone tell me whether you can add a tar rich gas stream, say from off
> gases of a charcoal kiln, into a low tar design downdraft gasifier
> operating on wood (or any other design for that matter) in order to "clean"
> this gas by breaking the tars down for use in a IC engine ?

--
Research Assistant Claus Hindsgaul
Institut for Energiteknik, DTU Område 120
Tlf: (+45) 4525 4174, Fax: (+45) 4593 5761
claush@et.dtu.dk (PGP-nøgle: http://www.image.dk/~claus_h/PGP.htm )
The Gasification List is sponsored by
USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/
and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com

From samuel.martin at epfl.ch Thu Nov 23 13:02:12 2000
From: samuel.martin at epfl.ch (samuel.martin@epfl.ch)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:46 2004
Subject: GAS-L: automatisation of gasification plant
In-Reply-To: <20001121121113796.AAA338%mail.cit.ie@bc-a264ljdm.cit.ie>
Message-ID: <975002206.3a1d5a5ecd29b@imap.epfl.ch>

Dear all,

can anybody tell me what are the existing systems to regulate the mixiture
Gas-Diesel in order to keep constant the rotating speed of the motor in spite of
the fluctuating heating value of the gas. Do you have any documentation about
that? And to load the gasifier with biomass is there any cheap, parctical and
automatic systems?

Thanks for your answers

Samuel Martin

-------------------------------------------------
This mail sent through IMP: imap.epfl.ch
The Gasification List is sponsored by
USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/
and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com

From Gavin at roseplac.worldonline.co.uk Thu Nov 23 13:58:46 2000
From: Gavin at roseplac.worldonline.co.uk (Gavin Gulliver-Goodall)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:46 2004
Subject: GAS-L: automatisation of gasification plant
In-Reply-To: <975002206.3a1d5a5ecd29b@imap.epfl.ch>
Message-ID: <MABBJLGAAFJBOBCKKPMGGEFKCAAA.Gavin@roseplac.worldonline.co.uk>

Samuel,
The existing Diesel governor will maintain a constant rpm depending on load.
If you are coburning the producer gas then the variation in gas CV will
cause speed variation and the governor will respond to this. If your
gas/diesel ration is high, ie lots of gas and not much diesel then the
governor will not work so well. In which case a butterfly valve on the gas
carburettor will work fine. There are many standard products on the market
for natural gas engines etc. that may be used.

As for Gasifier fuel handling - (which is I assume what you are referring to
in your second question) what is your fuel consumptionin Kg/hr? has your
gasifier been designed and built yet- as fuel handling is best built in at
an early stage rather than "added on as an afterthought" I have
considerable experience in this area but it depends on your particular
application- you may correspond with me direct via
gavin@roseplac.worldonline.co.uk If you are in the UK or Europe It will be
no bother to make contact and offer practical help and advice
Gavin Gulliver-Goodall

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-gasification@crest.org [mailto:owner-gasification@crest.org]
On Behalf Of samuel.martin@epfl.ch
Sent: 23 November 2000 17:57
To: gasification@crest.org
Subject: GAS-L: automatisation of gasification plant

Dear all,

can anybody tell me what are the existing systems to regulate the mixiture
Gas-Diesel in order to keep constant the rotating speed of the motor in
spite of
the fluctuating heating value of the gas. Do you have any documentation
about
that? And to load the gasifier with biomass is there any cheap, parctical
and
automatic systems?

Thanks for your answers

Samuel Martin

The Gasification List is sponsored by
USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/
and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com

From costich at pacifier.com Fri Nov 24 11:00:42 2000
From: costich at pacifier.com (Dale Costich)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:46 2004
Subject: GAS-L: automatisation of gasification plant
In-Reply-To: <20001121121113796.AAA338%mail.cit.ie@bc-a264ljdm.cit.ie>
Message-ID: <002701c0562f$6b3d3940$25e091c6@pacifier.com>

Sam: Ah yes freedom thru auto-mation. Sounds like your load is variable?
Most are but the problem is your gas stream cannot be made to increase
calorifically, as the diesel draws more air/fuel according to the diesels
governor. I have run my ICE's run on straight wood gas and manys the time I
curse its having been diluted.
I store it in a ag-bag, and really must build an inverted tank that floats
upon water for the perfect "seal"
To analyze the fuel mixture will be a formidable task, involving PID loops,
A/D converters, regulated power supplys, signal conditioning,
microcontrollers/embedded pcs etc., shall I go on?
I cannot second guess where you are coming from...but if you ran some
engines on your producer gas directly, you could get a handle on this
variability, and possibly create a buffer tank , a little like a capacitor
or inductor electrically speaking that would serve the function of
smoothing.
Dale
----- Original Message -----
From: <samuel.martin@epfl.ch>
To: <gasification@crest.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2000 9:56 AM
Subject: GAS-L: automatisation of gasification plant

> Dear all,
>
> can anybody tell me what are the existing systems to regulate the mixiture
> Gas-Diesel in order to keep constant the rotating speed of the motor in
spite of
> the fluctuating heating value of the gas. Do you have any documentation
about
> that? And to load the gasifier with biomass is there any cheap, parctical
and
> automatic systems?
>
> Thanks for your answers
>
> Samuel Martin
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------
> This mail sent through IMP: imap.epfl.ch
> The Gasification List is sponsored by
> USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/
> and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com
>
> Other Sponsors, Archives and Information
> http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm
> http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive
> http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml
> http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
> http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml
>

The Gasification List is sponsored by
USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/
and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com

From Gavin at roseplac.worldonline.co.uk Mon Nov 27 10:29:49 2000
From: Gavin at roseplac.worldonline.co.uk (Gavin Gulliver-Goodall)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:46 2004
Subject: GAS-L: automatisation of gasification plant
In-Reply-To: <002701c0562f$6b3d3940$25e091c6@pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJLGAAFJBOBCKKPMGOEFOCAAA.Gavin@roseplac.worldonline.co.uk>

Dale,
As soon as you put a storage device in the gas stream you have to make your
gasifier a positive pressure device, rather than allowing the IC engine to
"suck" How do you achieve this without lots of leaks or bunging up your
compressor with tar?
Gavin

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-gasification@crest.org [mailto:owner-gasification@crest.org]
On Behalf Of Dale Costich
Sent: 24 November 2000 15:58
To: gasification@crest.org
Subject: Re: GAS-L: automatisation of gasification plant

The Gasification List is sponsored by
USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/
and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com

From cpeacocke at care.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 27 13:32:59 2000
From: cpeacocke at care.demon.co.uk (Cordner Peacocke)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:46 2004
Subject: GAS-L: automatisation of gasification plant
In-Reply-To: <002701c0562f$6b3d3940$25e091c6@pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001127182650.00906100@pop3.demon.co.uk>

Gavin,

A gas storage device can still be used, depending on what you use to
''suck'' your gas from the gasifier. If you use a good gas fan to draw the
air through the gasifier, it can discharge on the positive side to your gas
buffer storage. I doubt if the engine can develop enough ''suck'' to pull
the gases through, depending on the configuration and engine size, although
I'm sure someone else knows better. I'm assuming the gas is clean. The
buffer tank obviates a lot of expensive control and automation.

Cordner

At 15:22 27/11/00 -0000, you wrote:
>Dale,
>As soon as you put a storage device in the gas stream you have to make your
>gasifier a positive pressure device, rather than allowing the IC engine to
>"suck" How do you achieve this without lots of leaks or bunging up your
>compressor with tar?
>Gavin
>
> -----Original Message-----
>From: owner-gasification@crest.org [mailto:owner-gasification@crest.org]
>On Behalf Of Dale Costich
>Sent: 24 November 2000 15:58
>To: gasification@crest.org
>Subject: Re: GAS-L: automatisation of gasification plant
>
>Sam: Ah yes freedom thru auto-mation. Sounds like your load is variable?
>Most are but the problem is your gas stream cannot be made to increase
>calorifically, as the diesel draws more air/fuel according to the diesels
>governor. I have run my ICE's run on straight wood gas and manys the time I
>curse its having been diluted.
>I store it in a ag-bag, and really must build an inverted tank that floats
>upon water for the perfect "seal"
>To analyze the fuel mixture will be a formidable task, involving PID loops,
>A/D converters, regulated power supplys, signal conditioning,
>microcontrollers/embedded pcs etc., shall I go on?
>I cannot second guess where you are coming from...but if you ran some
>engines on your producer gas directly, you could get a handle on this
>variability, and possibly create a buffer tank , a little like a capacitor
>or inductor electrically speaking that would serve the function of
>smoothing.
>Dale
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <samuel.martin@epfl.ch>
>To: <gasification@crest.org>
>Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2000 9:56 AM
>Subject: GAS-L: automatisation of gasification plant
>
>
>> Dear all,
>>
>> can anybody tell me what are the existing systems to regulate the mixiture
>> Gas-Diesel in order to keep constant the rotating speed of the motor in
>spite of
>> the fluctuating heating value of the gas. Do you have any documentation
>about
>> that? And to load the gasifier with biomass is there any cheap, parctical
>and
>> automatic systems?
>>
>> Thanks for your answers
>>
>> Samuel Martin
>>
>>
>> -------------------------------------------------
>> This mail sent through IMP: imap.epfl.ch
>> The Gasification List is sponsored by
>> USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/
>> and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com
>>
>> Other Sponsors, Archives and Information
>> http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm
>> http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive
>> http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml
>> http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
>> http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml
>>
>
>The Gasification List is sponsored by
>USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/
>and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com
>
>Other Sponsors, Archives and Information
>http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm
>http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive
>http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml
>http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
>http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml
>
>The Gasification List is sponsored by
>USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/
>and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com
>
>Other Sponsors, Archives and Information
>http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm
>http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive
>http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml
>http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
>http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml
>
The Gasification List is sponsored by
USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/
and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com

From Arotstein at ormat.com Tue Nov 28 03:28:41 2000
From: Arotstein at ormat.com (Ariel Rotstein)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:46 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Gas turbine
Message-ID: <727CFCBBE1C3D41181FC005004201AA003D2B0@www.ormat.com>

Hi
I am converting a gas turbine from liquid fuel to gas fuel (Syngas).
The fuel system will be converted.
On the fuel line a gas shut of valve and a gas metering valve will be
installed before the injector and the combustion chamber.
The Syngas purge tank will have give a constant pressure, the metering
valve will take a pressure drop differential (varies for the gas flow needed
in the turbine), and the combustion chamber pressure will change from a low
value at ignition to max value at full load. How can the injector stay on a
constant range of pressure differential?

Thanks
Ariel Rotstein

The Gasification List is sponsored by
USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/
and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com

From Gavin at roseplac.worldonline.co.uk Tue Nov 28 04:31:55 2000
From: Gavin at roseplac.worldonline.co.uk (Gavin Gulliver-Goodall)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:46 2004
Subject: GAS-L: automatisation of gasification plant
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001127182650.00906100@pop3.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <MABBJLGAAFJBOBCKKPMGGEGBCAAA.Gavin@roseplac.worldonline.co.uk>

Hi Cordener,
Yes, but if you suck the sticky tarry gas through with a fan then the fan
gets bunged up?
I think that the assumption that the gas is "clean" is the sticking point
that we're all working on -if you'll pardon the pun!
Gavin

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-gasification@crest.org [mailto:owner-gasification@crest.org]
On Behalf Of Cordner Peacocke
Sent: 27 November 2000 18:27
To: gasification@crest.org
Subject: RE: GAS-L: automatisation of gasification plant

Gavin,

Cordner

At 15:22 27/11/00 -0000, you wrote:
>Dale,
>As soon as you put a storage device in the gas stream you have to make your
>gasifier a positive pressure device, rather than allowing the IC engine to
>"suck" How do you achieve this without lots of leaks or bunging up your
>compressor with tar?
>Gavin
>
> -----Original Message-----
>From: owner-gasification@crest.org [mailto:owner-gasification@crest.org]
>On Behalf Of Dale Costich
>Sent: 24 November 2000 15:58
>To: gasification@crest.org
>Subject: Re: GAS-L: automatisation of gasification plant
>
>Sam: Ah yes freedom thru auto-mation. Sounds like your load is variable?
>Most are but the problem is your gas stream cannot be made to increase
>calorifically, as the diesel draws more air/fuel according to the diesels
>governor. I have run my ICE's run on straight wood gas and manys the time
I
>curse its having been diluted.
>I store it in a ag-bag, and really must build an inverted tank that floats
>upon water for the perfect "seal"
>To analyze the fuel mixture will be a formidable task, involving PID loops,
>A/D converters, regulated power supplys, signal conditioning,
>microcontrollers/embedded pcs etc., shall I go on?
>I cannot second guess where you are coming from...but if you ran some
>engines on your producer gas directly, you could get a handle on this
>variability, and possibly create a buffer tank , a little like a capacitor
>or inductor electrically speaking that would serve the function of
>smoothing.
>Dale
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <samuel.martin@epfl.ch>
>To: <gasification@crest.org>
>Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2000 9:56 AM
>Subject: GAS-L: automatisation of gasification plant
>
>
>> Dear all,
>>
>> can anybody tell me what are the existing systems to regulate the
mixiture
>> Gas-Diesel in order to keep constant the rotating speed of the motor in
>spite of
>> the fluctuating heating value of the gas. Do you have any documentation
>about
>> that? And to load the gasifier with biomass is there any cheap, parctical
>and
>> automatic systems?
>>
>> Thanks for your answers
>>
>> Samuel Martin
>>
>>
>> -------------------------------------------------
>> This mail sent through IMP: imap.epfl.ch
>> The Gasification List is sponsored by
>> USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/
>> and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com
>>
>> Other Sponsors, Archives and Information
>> http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm
>> http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive
>> http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml
>> http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
>> http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml
>>
>
>The Gasification List is sponsored by
>USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/
>and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com
>
>Other Sponsors, Archives and Information
>http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm
>http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive
>http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml
>http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
>http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml
>
>The Gasification List is sponsored by
>USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/
>and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com
>
>Other Sponsors, Archives and Information
>http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm
>http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive
>http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml
>http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
>http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml
>
The Gasification List is sponsored by
USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/
and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com

The Gasification List is sponsored by
USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/
and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com

From costich at pacifier.com Tue Nov 28 09:12:11 2000
From: costich at pacifier.com (Dale Costich)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:46 2004
Subject: GAS-L: automatisation of gasification plant
In-Reply-To: <MABBJLGAAFJBOBCKKPMGOEFOCAAA.Gavin@roseplac.worldonline.co.uk>
Message-ID: <004901c05944$d6f67c60$34e091c6@pacifier.com>

Gavin: I do use a "ring compressor" see W.W. Grainger for a
description...and cleaning the tar out of it is part of the regime of
running my gasifier. These units have a face plate that is easily removed
and cleaned with a flat scraper/putty knife. I conceed you the point, its a
bummer to clean, but the ability to add fuel during a run (without upsetting
the engine/load) is the upside! My goal is to create storage that is
counter-balanced...I am working with 2000cu.ft. batches, which is about one
horsepower hour when run back into a 9HP Wisconsin air-cooled engine. A
better use of this wood gas is to cook with a open flame. A vessel of light
construction, say a ribbed fibeglass monocoque semi-sphere suspended thru a
overhead pulley to a equal counter weight (like an elevator or lift-span
bridge) and then simply add and subtract the extra weight to draw suction
thru the gasifier during its periodic "run". It is amazing how the gas
cleans/cools while storing in a containment. Please remember...I am not
trying to solve the worlds problems here, I do well to clean up my own
backyard! renewable energy/home power! 21 years!
thankyou for your interest,
Dale Costich
Brush Prairie, Wa.
costich.tripod.com

----- Original Message -----
From: Gavin Gulliver-Goodall <Gavin@roseplac.worldonline.co.uk>
To: <gasification@crest.org>
Sent: Monday, November 27, 2000 7:22 AM
Subject: RE: GAS-L: automatisation of gasification plant

> Dale,
> As soon as you put a storage device in the gas stream you have to make
your
> gasifier a positive pressure device, rather than allowing the IC engine to
> "suck" How do you achieve this without lots of leaks or bunging up your
> compressor with tar?
> Gavin
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-gasification@crest.org [mailto:owner-gasification@crest.org]
> On Behalf Of Dale Costich
> Sent: 24 November 2000 15:58
> To: gasification@crest.org
> Subject: Re: GAS-L: automatisation of gasification plant
>
> Sam: Ah yes freedom thru auto-mation. Sounds like your load is variable?
> Most are but the problem is your gas stream cannot be made to increase
> calorifically, as the diesel draws more air/fuel according to the diesels
> governor. I have run my ICE's run on straight wood gas and manys the time
I
> curse its having been diluted.
> I store it in a ag-bag, and really must build an inverted tank that floats
> upon water for the perfect "seal"
> To analyze the fuel mixture will be a formidable task, involving PID
loops,
> A/D converters, regulated power supplys, signal conditioning,
> microcontrollers/embedded pcs etc., shall I go on?
> I cannot second guess where you are coming from...but if you ran some
> engines on your producer gas directly, you could get a handle on this
> variability, and possibly create a buffer tank , a little like a capacitor
> or inductor electrically speaking that would serve the function of
> smoothing.
> Dale
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <samuel.martin@epfl.ch>
> To: <gasification@crest.org>
> Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2000 9:56 AM
> Subject: GAS-L: automatisation of gasification plant
>
>
> > Dear all,
> >
> > can anybody tell me what are the existing systems to regulate the
mixiture
> > Gas-Diesel in order to keep constant the rotating speed of the motor in
> spite of
> > the fluctuating heating value of the gas. Do you have any documentation
> about
> > that? And to load the gasifier with biomass is there any cheap,
parctical
> and
> > automatic systems?
> >
> > Thanks for your answers
> >
> > Samuel Martin
> >
> >
> > -------------------------------------------------
> > This mail sent through IMP: imap.epfl.ch
> > The Gasification List is sponsored by
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> > and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com
> >
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> >
>
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> and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com
>
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>
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From Reedtb2 at cs.com Tue Nov 28 12:04:32 2000
From: Reedtb2 at cs.com (Reedtb2@cs.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:47 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Low tar gasifiers...
Message-ID: <34.d62313f.27553e07@cs.com>

Cordener, Gavin and all:

At the Community Power Corporation, CPC, we think the "Tar Problem" should be
solved by proper gasifier design and operation, not later scrubbing, cleanup
etc. which then leaves big water and solid disposal problems.

We believe it is possible to run continually with less than 50 ppm tar in the
raw gas, clean enough for direct engine operation. We are well on the way to
a "Tar free, Turnkey" gasifier system.

TOM REED

In a message dated 11/28/00 2:27:12 AM Mountain Standard Time,
Gavin@roseplac.worldonline.co.uk writes:

<<
Hi Cordener,
Yes, but if you suck the sticky tarry gas through with a fan then the fan
gets bunged up?
I think that the assumption that the gas is "clean" is the sticking point
that we're all working on -if you'll pardon the pun!
Gavin
>>
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and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com

From Reedtb2 at cs.com Tue Nov 28 12:05:10 2000
From: Reedtb2 at cs.com (Reedtb2@cs.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:47 2004
Subject: GAS-L: The cellulose to ethanol dream again.
Message-ID: <68.991ea91.27553e11@cs.com>

Dear Harry et al:

Thank you for your repeat warning to the non-dreamers of this world.
Cellulose hydrolysis was a done deal in the laboratory in 1900. During WWI a
plant or two were built and torn down ASAP when the war ended. Same WWII.

In my 25 years of monitoring various fuel options, I have seen startup plants
probably yearly with great fanfare.... then nothing. Good for stock
scams. Bad for energy.

If acid hydrolysis fails, then enzymatic is touted; if enzymatic fails, then
acid hyrdolysis is back in..

It is too bad that NREL doesn't have to be accountable for the millions they
have spent on ethanol from cellulose over the last two decades. Beautiful
plants that go nowhere.

And don't forget, cellulose is only 50% of the biomass. Gasificaiton
converts 100% to syngas and doesn't care much about the form. Efficiencies
to methanol will be in excess of 50%.

UUUCH

TOM REED BEF CPC

In a message dated 11/19/00 6:33:55 PM Mountain Standard Time,
H.Parker@ttu.edu writes:

<< Hello Dave and all,

Cellulose hydrolysis has self-documented its own failure many many times =
for over 50 years. There is no new science and engineering by which to =
expect any changes in that dark future. There are inherrent limitations =
of mass transfer rates, irreversible chemical reactions, and mechanical =
complexity that constrain commercial success for cellulose hydrolysis of =
woody materials, as I have said before to this forum. =20

If you MUST go from MSW to liquid fuel use a gasifier to convert the MSW =
into CO and H2 and then react them produce either diesel fuel via FT =
synthesis, or methanol for fuel. There is also a proven process that =
converts methanol into high-octane gasoline.

It is better just to burn MSW for boiler fuel in small local units, and =
then gasify coal on a very large-scale for liquid fuels as needed. Coal =
gasification is already commercial for petrochemicals at Kingsport Tenn. =
Before coal is gasified commercially for transportaion fuels, natural =
gas and natural gas liquids will be reformed/gasified for FT synthesis =
into transportation fuels. This conversion is an area of active =
planning and engineering by several major energy companies today. Shell =
already has a commercial plant in Malaysia that produces premium no-S =
no-N diesel fuel from natural gas and natural gas liquids. =20

Thanks for renewing the discussion of cellulose hydrolysis. Its =
continued failure needs to be repeated for this group every few months.

Harry
>>
The Gasification List is sponsored by
USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/
and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com

From VHarris001 at aol.com Tue Nov 28 12:57:27 2000
From: VHarris001 at aol.com (VHarris001@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:47 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Low tar gasifiers...
Message-ID: <6d.c0028e4.27554a65@aol.com>

In a message dated 11/28/2000 12:05:34 PM Eastern Standard Time,
Reedtb2@cs.com writes:

> At the Community Power Corporation, CPC, we think the "Tar Problem" should
be
>
> solved by proper gasifier design and operation, not later scrubbing,
cleanup
>
> etc. which then leaves big water and solid disposal problems.
>
> We believe it is possible to run continually with less than 50 ppm tar in
> the
> raw gas, clean enough for direct engine operation. We are well on the way
> to
> a "Tar free, Turnkey" gasifier system.
>
> TOM REED

Hi Tom,

It's good to hear of your continuing progress in solving the tar problem in
biomass gasification. Any preliminary data yet to suggest how sensitive your
system is to changes in fuel properties (size, density, moisture content
etc.)?

Should "off-spec" fuel inadvertently find its way into your system, will
there be safeguards to either clean up the dirty gas stream or shut the
system down to prevent tar-laden gas from entering the engine?

Can tar generation rates due to substantial changes to fuel properties be
controlled by changes in superficial velocity alone, or are there other
methods which your research suggests might be used to allow a wide variety of
fuels to be consumed in a single gasifier design?

Best wishes,
Vernon Harris
The Gasification List is sponsored by
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and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com

From cpeacocke at care.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 28 13:16:21 2000
From: cpeacocke at care.demon.co.uk (Cordner Peacocke)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:47 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Low tar gasifiers...
In-Reply-To: <34.d62313f.27553e07@cs.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001128180956.0090a100@pop3.demon.co.uk>

Dear Tom Reed et al.

I agree wholeheartedly with your comments with regards to downdraft
gasifiers. Correct design and operation of the gasifier should give an
extremely low tar content gas, suitable for direct use in an SI engine. In
my experience, from gasiifer start-up to running an engine, solely on
producer gas, should be the order of a few minutes, rather than hours,
which I hear regularly.

If you are using extensive gas clean-up, for a downdraft gasifier, the
problem is the gasifier and its operation. Gas cleaning should be more
gas conditioning rather than ''cleaning. That's why I said a gas fan can
be used to transfer the gas to an engine. I don't see why a gas compressor
should be used.

Yours,

Cordner

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From luizmagri at yahoo.com Tue Nov 28 18:52:58 2000
From: luizmagri at yahoo.com (Luiz Alberto Magri)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:47 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Gas turbine
Message-ID: <20001128234640.19071.qmail@web1104.mail.yahoo.com>

Ariel,

As a general rule, the pressure will be kept constant
before the control valve. This valve is a requirement
in order to allow for load modulation. You will need
to include for a (separate) gas compressor anyway.
Some extra bleeding from the compressor section should
be forseen in order to acomodate the lower heat value
to the corresponding internal power consumption.

Regards,

Luiz Magri.

--- Ariel Rotstein <Arotstein@ormat.com> wrote:
>
> Hi
> I am converting a gas turbine from liquid fuel to
> gas fuel (Syngas).
> The fuel system will be converted.
> On the fuel line a gas shut of valve and a gas
> metering valve will be
> installed before the injector and the combustion
> chamber.
> The Syngas purge tank will have give a constant
> pressure, the metering
> valve will take a pressure drop differential (varies
> for the gas flow needed
> in the turbine), and the combustion chamber pressure
> will change from a low
> value at ignition to max value at full load. How can
> the injector stay on a
> constant range of pressure differential?
>
> Thanks
> Ariel Rotstein
>
> The Gasification List is sponsored by
> USDOE BioPower Program
> http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/
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>
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>
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>
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From renertech at xtra.co.nz Wed Nov 29 00:02:37 2000
From: renertech at xtra.co.nz (renertech)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:47 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Automatisation of Diesels on Producer Gas.
Message-ID: <004201c05a71$55e8d360$c6c536d2@coppermine>

Gentlemen, may I add my two bits worth to the
discussion.
The way we did it was to put the gas intake
in between the Oil Bath air cleaner and the engine. A good air cleaner on
a diesel truck or tractor engine will take up several inches of
waterguage to do its job, and an oil bath cleaner will take up the
most.   That means that you have that much suction to play with
to both run the gasifier and to clean up the gas, which bypassing the normal air
cleaning system, therefore has to be very clean itself.  Using this
method, the only means of control required, is a butterfly valve
from an old carburettor fitted on the gas
feed line. A diesel engine normally aspirates far more air than it needs
for 100% fuel combustion, and control is maintained by a mechanical
governor operating in the fuel rack of the Injection pump.
That fuel pump governor remains in place, but an
extra electronic speed controled governor is mounted on the gas feed
butterfly valve. The cheapest way to get that is to buy a DIY cruise
control kit of the type you can fit on your car for driving accross the
Nullabor plain etc.   To run the engine on its
normal diesel mode, the gas butterfly is closed, and the fuel
injection governor takes over its normal function.
When the gas butterfly is opened a fraction,
the engine takes in a weak gas air mixture which adds to the power of the
burning diesel fuel and the diesel injection governor backs off
enough until the balance is
restored.  As the gas throttle is opened further the
injectors back off further, until the <FONT face=Arial
size=2>rack on the injectors is at minimum and only enough diesel is being
injected to give ignition, usually around 12%,   <FONT
face=Arial size=2>say 10-15% of full load consumption.   From
that point on, about 25% of full load, up to about 80% of full load, the
engine is totally controlled by the cruise control governor operating on
the gas flow. All the air required
is still coming through the normal air cleaner.   We found
that beyond 80% of full load the engine ran rather roughly and the
controls tended to hunt a lot.  So, for hill climbing etc. the
gas throttle was backed off, and the fuel injectors were cooled and
cleaned by being allowed to take over most of the action
again.
So, to reiterate, there is
enough suction generated by the normal air cleaning system to both
generate and clean the gas system. We had two filters on the gas
line, a wet one and a dry one. And it is a lot easier to run a
stationary engine than a prime mover on gas.
Regards,
Ken C Calvert.Renertech.Coffee.159
St.Andrew St.Invercargill. New Zealand. 9501.Phone +64
3217 7015Fax.      +64 3217
7032Mobile.    025 54 74 38 E-Mail. <A
href="mailto:renertech@xtra.co.nz">renertech@xtra.co.nz

<FONT face=Arial
size=2>

engine , which
is operated by an electronic governor.

From antonio.hilst at merconet.com.br Wed Nov 29 02:00:29 2000
From: antonio.hilst at merconet.com.br (Antonio G. P. Hilst)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:47 2004
Subject: GAS-L: The cellulose to ethanol dream again.
In-Reply-To: <68.991ea91.27553e11@cs.com>
Message-ID: <3A24A7FD.270AB6EE@merconet.com.br>

Dear Tom. Harry and All,

Take a look at organosolv hydrolisys: 10 min. reaction time, 70 % + glucose and
xylose recovery, almost complete (95+%) biomass conversion, furfural and acetic
acid recoverable with the organic solvent, HMF (Hydroxy Methyl Furfural) also.
Antonio

Reedtb2@cs.com wrote:

> Dear Harry et al:
>
> Thank you for your repeat warning to the non-dreamers of this world.
> Cellulose hydrolysis was a done deal in the laboratory in 1900. During WWI a
> plant or two were built and torn down ASAP when the war ended. Same WWII.
>
> In my 25 years of monitoring various fuel options, I have seen startup plants
> probably yearly with great fanfare.... then nothing. Good for stock
> scams. Bad for energy.
>
> If acid hydrolysis fails, then enzymatic is touted; if enzymatic fails, then
> acid hyrdolysis is back in..
>
> It is too bad that NREL doesn't have to be accountable for the millions they
> have spent on ethanol from cellulose over the last two decades. Beautiful
> plants that go nowhere.
>
> And don't forget, cellulose is only 50% of the biomass. Gasificaiton
> converts 100% to syngas and doesn't care much about the form. Efficiencies
> to methanol will be in excess of 50%.
>
> UUUCH
>
> TOM REED BEF CPC
>
> In a message dated 11/19/00 6:33:55 PM Mountain Standard Time,
> H.Parker@ttu.edu writes:
>
> << Hello Dave and all,
>
> Cellulose hydrolysis has self-documented its own failure many many times =
> for over 50 years. There is no new science and engineering by which to =
> expect any changes in that dark future. There are inherrent limitations =
> of mass transfer rates, irreversible chemical reactions, and mechanical =
> complexity that constrain commercial success for cellulose hydrolysis of =
> woody materials, as I have said before to this forum. =20
>
>
> If you MUST go from MSW to liquid fuel use a gasifier to convert the MSW =
> into CO and H2 and then react them produce either diesel fuel via FT =
> synthesis, or methanol for fuel. There is also a proven process that =
> converts methanol into high-octane gasoline.
>
> It is better just to burn MSW for boiler fuel in small local units, and =
> then gasify coal on a very large-scale for liquid fuels as needed. Coal =
> gasification is already commercial for petrochemicals at Kingsport Tenn. =
> Before coal is gasified commercially for transportaion fuels, natural =
> gas and natural gas liquids will be reformed/gasified for FT synthesis =
> into transportation fuels. This conversion is an area of active =
> planning and engineering by several major energy companies today. Shell =
> already has a commercial plant in Malaysia that produces premium no-S =
> no-N diesel fuel from natural gas and natural gas liquids. =20
>
>
>
> Thanks for renewing the discussion of cellulose hydrolysis. Its =
> continued failure needs to be repeated for this group every few months.
>
> Harry
> >>
> The Gasification List is sponsored by
> USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/
> and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com
>
> Other Sponsors, Archives and Information
> http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm
> http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive
> http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml
> http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
> http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml

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From tmiles at teleport.com Wed Nov 29 02:48:02 2000
From: tmiles at teleport.com (Tom Miles)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:47 2004
Subject: GAS-L: The cellulose to ethanol dream again.
In-Reply-To: <68.991ea91.27553e11@cs.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20001128233645.00c6f490@mail.teleport.com>

Organosolv pulping of straws and other non-wood fibers was a favorite of my old prof Dr. Kyosti Saarkenen (University of Washington) in the late 70's. Does anyone have a recent review of organosolv pulping or hydrolysis? I'd like to know how far it has advanced.

Regards,

Tom Miles

At 04:53 AM 11/29/00 -0200, Antonio G. P. Hilst wrote:
>Dear Tom. Harry and All,
>
>Take a look at organosolv hydrolisys: 10 min. reaction time, 70 % + glucose and
>xylose recovery, almost complete (95+%) biomass conversion, furfural and acetic
>acid recoverable with the organic solvent, HMF (Hydroxy Methyl Furfural) also.
>Antonio
>
>Reedtb2@cs.com wrote:
>
>> Dear Harry et al:
>>
>> Thank you for your repeat warning to the non-dreamers of this world.
>> Cellulose hydrolysis was a done deal in the laboratory in 1900. During WWI a
>> plant or two were built and torn down ASAP when the war ended. Same WWII.
>>
>> In my 25 years of monitoring various fuel options, I have seen startup plants
>> probably yearly with great fanfare.... then nothing. Good for stock
>> scams. Bad for energy.
>>
>> If acid hydrolysis fails, then enzymatic is touted; if enzymatic fails, then
>> acid hyrdolysis is back in..
>>
>> It is too bad that NREL doesn't have to be accountable for the millions they
>> have spent on ethanol from cellulose over the last two decades. Beautiful
>> plants that go nowhere.
>>
>> And don't forget, cellulose is only 50% of the biomass. Gasificaiton
>> converts 100% to syngas and doesn't care much about the form. Efficiencies
>> to methanol will be in excess of 50%.
>>
>> UUUCH
>>
>> TOM REED BEF CPC
>>
>> In a message dated 11/19/00 6:33:55 PM Mountain Standard Time,
>> H.Parker@ttu.edu writes:
>>
>> << Hello Dave and all,
>>
>> Cellulose hydrolysis has self-documented its own failure many many times =
>> for over 50 years. There is no new science and engineering by which to =
>> expect any changes in that dark future. There are inherrent limitations =
>> of mass transfer rates, irreversible chemical reactions, and mechanical =
>> complexity that constrain commercial success for cellulose hydrolysis of =
>> woody materials, as I have said before to this forum. =20
>>
>>
>> If you MUST go from MSW to liquid fuel use a gasifier to convert the MSW =
>> into CO and H2 and then react them produce either diesel fuel via FT =
>> synthesis, or methanol for fuel. There is also a proven process that =
>> converts methanol into high-octane gasoline.
>>
>> It is better just to burn MSW for boiler fuel in small local units, and =
>> then gasify coal on a very large-scale for liquid fuels as needed. Coal =
>> gasification is already commercial for petrochemicals at Kingsport Tenn. =
>> Before coal is gasified commercially for transportaion fuels, natural =
>> gas and natural gas liquids will be reformed/gasified for FT synthesis =
>> into transportation fuels. This conversion is an area of active =
>> planning and engineering by several major energy companies today. Shell =
>> already has a commercial plant in Malaysia that produces premium no-S =
>> no-N diesel fuel from natural gas and natural gas liquids. =20
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks for renewing the discussion of cellulose hydrolysis. Its =
>> continued failure needs to be repeated for this group every few months.
>>
>> Harry
>> >>
>> The Gasification List is sponsored by
>> USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/
>> and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com
>>
>> Other Sponsors, Archives and Information
>> http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm
>> http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive
>> http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml
>> http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
>> http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml
>
>The Gasification List is sponsored by
>USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/
>and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com
>
>Other Sponsors, Archives and Information
>http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm
>http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive
>http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml
>http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
>http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml

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From renertech at xtra.co.nz Wed Nov 29 02:52:11 2000
From: renertech at xtra.co.nz (renertech)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:47 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Low tar gasifiers...
In-Reply-To: <6d.c0028e4.27554a65@aol.com>
Message-ID: <005801c05a89$07dcbca0$c6c536d2@coppermine>

----- Original Message -----
From: <VHarris001@aol.com>
> > Reedtb2@cs.com etal.
Gentlemen, another two cents worth.
Gas cleanup is a whole lot easier for a stationary plant than for something
on the road. Renertech's hands on experience stems from work done in the
Pacific Islands prior to the first OPEC crash in 1982. We had three or
four methods of cleanup for a down draft wood gasifier. Using a down draft
system with a large fuel hopper, You can lift the lid and refill the hopper
without the engine missing a beat. At one stage we had an uninsulated
hopper with a condensation trap around the inside wall, which condensed off
a lot of tars and solubles as a liquid stockholm tar which ran out a small
drain on the side of the fuel hopper. The problem with this was that as the
fuel burnt down, and the hopper got hotter, the tar got thicker and clogged
things up unless the hopper was kept nearly full. The gas cooler was a
normal cyclone, with the hot gas coming in tangentially and leaving out the
centre of the top. The really neat bit we saw in the Indian Institute of
technology in New Delhi. The top of the cyclone had a series of narrow
slots around its outside edge, which allowed a thin film of water to run
down the inside of the casing and out the drain at the bottom of the cone.
In this way the gas was in direct contact with a film of water falling at
right angles to the gas flow path. The thicker and more oily was the
cooling water flow, the better the collection of oily gas particles as well
as the cooling effect. This type of cooler uses a lot less water
and puts out a waste product that once again is like dilute stockholm tar
and which has lots of good used as a wood preservative etc. The next stage
was an electrostatic
precipitator. The idea from this came from the USA, from Messers Honieg and
Cole, if my memory was correcr. It was a length of dog chain hanging from
a recessed spark plug as the insulator at the top of a length of 6" steel
pipe. The power supply was a automotive
capacitor ignition system running into a stick rectifier from a Colour TV
set. This gave around 40kv at 10 watts.
We later developed better systems once again using mass produced components
from household items, costing about $40-00. However both would handle 2-3
cubic metres of gas/min. This system has to be seen to be believed in
terms of gas cleanup. Then finally came a bag filter system consisting
of open ended calico tubes inside a 44 gallon barrel. Most of the cleaning
of this filter was done by taking the bottom cover off the drum and belting
the sides to make the tubes drop their bundle of damp dust out the bottom.
That is a very condensed verion of events but will be happy to elaborate
further with refers etc. Cheers,
Ken Calvert Renertech.

Then we used an electrostatic .

The Gasification List is sponsored by
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and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com

From Reedtb2 at cs.com Wed Nov 29 17:59:42 2000
From: Reedtb2 at cs.com (Reedtb2@cs.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:47 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Low tar gasifiers...
Message-ID: <68.998dbfb.2756e29d@cs.com>

Dear Vern:

I believe the present system can handle wide changes in fuel properties, but
we need more experience before that is definite.

Hang in there... TOM REED

In a message dated 11/28/00 10:53:26 AM Mountain Standard Time,
VHarris001@aol.com writes:

<<
Should "off-spec" fuel inadvertently find its way into your system, will
there be safeguards to either clean up the dirty gas stream or shut the
system down to prevent tar-laden gas from entering the engine?

Can tar generation rates due to substantial changes to fuel properties be
controlled by changes in superficial velocity alone, or are there other
methods which your research suggests might be used to allow a wide variety
of
fuels to be consumed in a single gasifier design?
>>
The Gasification List is sponsored by
USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/
and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com

From tmiles at teleport.com Wed Nov 29 23:10:55 2000
From: tmiles at teleport.com (Tom Miles)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:47 2004
Subject: BioC: Re: GAS-L: The cellulose to ethanol dream again.
In-Reply-To: <5A8FC02D049FD3119D590020AFD209CE0F6404@ems02.energy.wsu.edu>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20001129195718.00c69b10@mail.teleport.com>

Wonderful, Jim. Thank you.

The collective wisdom, interest and initiative in these bioenergy forums is priceless.

Regards,

Tom

At 10:42 AM 11/29/00 -0800, Jim Kerstetter wrote:
>http://herkules.oulu.fi/isbn9514256611/
>
>Check out this web site. It's a review of organo solve that says looked at
>900 papers on the technology
>
>Jim Kerstetter, Ph.D.
>WA State Univ/Energy
>925 Plum Street
>Olympia, WA 98504-3165
>phone(360) 956-2069 fax 236-2069
>kerstetterj@energy.wsu.edu
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Tom Miles [mailto:tmiles@teleport.com]
>Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2000 11:39 PM
>To: gasification@crest.org; bioconversion@crest.org
>Subject: BioC: Re: GAS-L: The cellulose to ethanol dream again.
>
>
>Organosolv pulping of straws and other non-wood fibers was a favorite of my
>old prof Dr. Kyosti Saarkenen (University of Washington) in the late 70's.
>Does anyone have a recent review of organosolv pulping or hydrolysis? I'd
>like to know how far it has advanced.
>
>Regards,
>
>Tom Miles
>
>
>At 04:53 AM 11/29/00 -0200, Antonio G. P. Hilst wrote:
>>Dear Tom. Harry and All,
>>
>>Take a look at organosolv hydrolisys: 10 min. reaction time, 70 % + glucose
>and
>>xylose recovery, almost complete (95+%) biomass conversion, furfural and
>acetic
>>acid recoverable with the organic solvent, HMF (Hydroxy Methyl Furfural)
>also.
>>Antonio
>>
>>Reedtb2@cs.com wrote:
>>
>>> Dear Harry et al:
>>>
>>> Thank you for your repeat warning to the non-dreamers of this world.
>>> Cellulose hydrolysis was a done deal in the laboratory in 1900. During
>WWI a
>>> plant or two were built and torn down ASAP when the war ended. Same
>WWII.
>>>
>>> In my 25 years of monitoring various fuel options, I have seen startup
>plants
>>> probably yearly with great fanfare.... then nothing. Good for stock
>>> scams. Bad for energy.
>>>
>>> If acid hydrolysis fails, then enzymatic is touted; if enzymatic fails,
>then
>>> acid hyrdolysis is back in..
>>>
>>> It is too bad that NREL doesn't have to be accountable for the millions
>they
>>> have spent on ethanol from cellulose over the last two decades. Beautiful
>>> plants that go nowhere.
>>>
>>> And don't forget, cellulose is only 50% of the biomass. Gasificaiton
>>> converts 100% to syngas and doesn't care much about the form.
>Efficiencies
>>> to methanol will be in excess of 50%.
>>>
>>> UUUCH
>>>
>>> TOM REED BEF CPC
>>>
>>> In a message dated 11/19/00 6:33:55 PM Mountain Standard Time,
>>> H.Parker@ttu.edu writes:
>>>
>>> << Hello Dave and all,
>>>
>>> Cellulose hydrolysis has self-documented its own failure many many times
>=
>>> for over 50 years. There is no new science and engineering by which to
>=
>>> expect any changes in that dark future. There are inherrent limitations
>=
>>> of mass transfer rates, irreversible chemical reactions, and mechanical
>=
>>> complexity that constrain commercial success for cellulose hydrolysis of
>=
>>> woody materials, as I have said before to this forum. =20
>>>
>>>
>>> If you MUST go from MSW to liquid fuel use a gasifier to convert the MSW
>=
>>> into CO and H2 and then react them produce either diesel fuel via FT =
>>> synthesis, or methanol for fuel. There is also a proven process that =
>>> converts methanol into high-octane gasoline.
>>>
>>> It is better just to burn MSW for boiler fuel in small local units, and
>=
>>> then gasify coal on a very large-scale for liquid fuels as needed. Coal
>=
>>> gasification is already commercial for petrochemicals at Kingsport Tenn.
>=
>>> Before coal is gasified commercially for transportaion fuels, natural
>=
>>> gas and natural gas liquids will be reformed/gasified for FT synthesis =
>>> into transportation fuels. This conversion is an area of active =
>>> planning and engineering by several major energy companies today. Shell
>=
>>> already has a commercial plant in Malaysia that produces premium no-S =
>>> no-N diesel fuel from natural gas and natural gas liquids. =20
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks for renewing the discussion of cellulose hydrolysis. Its =
>>> continued failure needs to be repeated for this group every few months.
>>>
>>> Harry
>>> >>
>>> The Gasification List is sponsored by
>>> USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/
>>> and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com
>>>
>>> Other Sponsors, Archives and Information
>>> http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm
>>> http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive
>>> http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml
>>> http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
>>> http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml
>>
>>The Gasification List is sponsored by
>>USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/
>>and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com
>>
>>Other Sponsors, Archives and Information
>>http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm
>>http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive
>>http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml
>>http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
>>http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml
>
>Bioconversion Sponsors, Archives and Information
>http://www.crest.org/renewables/bioconversion-arc/
>http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/

Thomas R Miles tmiles@teleport.com
T R Miles, TCI Tel 503-292-0107
1470 SW Woodward Way Fax 503-292-2919
Portland, OR 97225 USA

The Gasification List is sponsored by
USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/
and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com

From Kerstetterj at energy.wsu.edu Wed Nov 29 23:11:00 2000
From: Kerstetterj at energy.wsu.edu (Jim Kerstetter)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:47 2004
Subject: BioC: Re: GAS-L: The cellulose to ethanol dream again.
Message-ID: <200011300411.XAA06274@crest.solarhost.com>

Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 10:42:40 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21)
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"

http://herkules.oulu.fi/isbn9514256611/

Check out this web site. It's a review of organo solve that says looked at
900 papers on the technology

Jim Kerstetter, Ph.D.
WA State Univ/Energy
925 Plum Street
Olympia, WA 98504-3165
phone(360) 956-2069 fax 236-2069
kerstetterj@energy.wsu.edu

-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Miles [mailto:tmiles@teleport.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2000 11:39 PM
To: gasification@crest.org; bioconversion@crest.org
Subject: BioC: Re: GAS-L: The cellulose to ethanol dream again.

Organosolv pulping of straws and other non-wood fibers was a favorite of my
old prof Dr. Kyosti Saarkenen (University of Washington) in the late 70's.
Does anyone have a recent review of organosolv pulping or hydrolysis? I'd
like to know how far it has advanced.

Regards,

Tom Miles

At 04:53 AM 11/29/00 -0200, Antonio G. P. Hilst wrote:
>Dear Tom. Harry and All,
>
>Take a look at organosolv hydrolisys: 10 min. reaction time, 70 % + glucose
and
>xylose recovery, almost complete (95+%) biomass conversion, furfural and
acetic
>acid recoverable with the organic solvent, HMF (Hydroxy Methyl Furfural)
also.
>Antonio
>
>Reedtb2@cs.com wrote:
>
>> Dear Harry et al:
>>
>> Thank you for your repeat warning to the non-dreamers of this world.
>> Cellulose hydrolysis was a done deal in the laboratory in 1900. During
WWI a
>> plant or two were built and torn down ASAP when the war ended. Same
WWII.
>>
>> In my 25 years of monitoring various fuel options, I have seen startup
plants
>> probably yearly with great fanfare.... then nothing. Good for stock
>> scams. Bad for energy.
>>
>> If acid hydrolysis fails, then enzymatic is touted; if enzymatic fails,
then
>> acid hyrdolysis is back in..
>>
>> It is too bad that NREL doesn't have to be accountable for the millions
they
>> have spent on ethanol from cellulose over the last two decades. Beautiful
>> plants that go nowhere.
>>
>> And don't forget, cellulose is only 50% of the biomass. Gasificaiton
>> converts 100% to syngas and doesn't care much about the form.
Efficiencies
>> to methanol will be in excess of 50%.
>>
>> UUUCH
>>
>> TOM REED BEF CPC
>>
>> In a message dated 11/19/00 6:33:55 PM Mountain Standard Time,
>> H.Parker@ttu.edu writes:
>>
>> << Hello Dave and all,
>>
>> Cellulose hydrolysis has self-documented its own failure many many times
=
>> for over 50 years. There is no new science and engineering by which to
=
>> expect any changes in that dark future. There are inherrent limitations
=
>> of mass transfer rates, irreversible chemical reactions, and mechanical
=
>> complexity that constrain commercial success for cellulose hydrolysis of
=
>> woody materials, as I have said before to this forum. =20
>>
>>
>> If you MUST go from MSW to liquid fuel use a gasifier to convert the MSW
=
>> into CO and H2 and then react them produce either diesel fuel via FT =
>> synthesis, or methanol for fuel. There is also a proven process that =
>> converts methanol into high-octane gasoline.
>>
>> It is better just to burn MSW for boiler fuel in small local units, and
=
>> then gasify coal on a very large-scale for liquid fuels as needed. Coal
=
>> gasification is already commercial for petrochemicals at Kingsport Tenn.
=
>> Before coal is gasified commercially for transportaion fuels, natural
=
>> gas and natural gas liquids will be reformed/gasified for FT synthesis =
>> into transportation fuels. This conversion is an area of active =
>> planning and engineering by several major energy companies today. Shell
=
>> already has a commercial plant in Malaysia that produces premium no-S =
>> no-N diesel fuel from natural gas and natural gas liquids. =20
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks for renewing the discussion of cellulose hydrolysis. Its =
>> continued failure needs to be repeated for this group every few months.
>>
>> Harry
>> >>
>> The Gasification List is sponsored by
>> USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/
>> and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com
>>
>> Other Sponsors, Archives and Information
>> http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm
>> http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive
>> http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml
>> http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
>> http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml
>
>The Gasification List is sponsored by
>USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/
>and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com
>
>Other Sponsors, Archives and Information
>http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm
>http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive
>http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml
>http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
>http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml

Bioconversion Sponsors, Archives and Information
http://www.crest.org/renewables/bioconversion-arc/
http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/

The Gasification List is sponsored by
USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/
and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com

BioEnergy Lists: Gasifiers & Gasification

November 2000 Gasification Archive