From english at adan.kingston.net Sun Oct 1 00:39:57 2000 From: english at adan.kingston.net (*.English) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:43 2004 Subject: GAS-L: double posts Message-ID: <200010010439.AAA23993@crest.solarhost.com> Reply-to: english@adan.kingston.net Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.52) I apologize for double posting. If you receive one copy of this then the problem is solved. Alex The Gasification List is sponsored by USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/ and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com Other Sponsors, Archives and Information http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/ http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml From alan_tema at lineone.net Sun Oct 1 14:59:38 2000 From: alan_tema at lineone.net (Alan F Somers) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:43 2004 Subject: GAS-L: re:SOURCE Message-ID: <200010011859.OAA12666@crest.solarhost.com> Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 09:44:06 +0100 Organization: TEMA Services Limited MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000D_01C02AC2.F98D8F80" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C02AC2.F98D8F80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I need to identify Manfucaturers of medium to small Gasifiers, can you = help? Regards, ALAN=20 ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C02AC2.F98D8F80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I need to identify Manfucaturers of medium to small = Gasifiers,=20 can you help? Regards, ALAN ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C02AC2.F98D8F80-- The Gasification List is sponsored by USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/ and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com Other Sponsors, Archives and Information http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/ http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml From douglasmcc at cnl.com.au Mon Oct 2 06:55:32 2000 From: douglasmcc at cnl.com.au (Douglas Costello) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:43 2004 Subject: GAS-L: Power From Solar Heat (2000) In-Reply-To: <47.1352834.26ffe499@aol.com> Message-ID: <000401c02c67$45424b00$701f38cb@douglasmcc> Tom, Any pointers on the Rectifier as to where to start looking. I'm a bit of an information junkie and can't resist researching itemss Douglas Costello ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, 25 September 2000 9:13 Subject: Re: GAS-L: Power From Solar Heat (2000) > Dear Peter and others, > How about the solar "rectifier" that directly rectifies light into DC > voltage? Theoretically 80% efficient? Very small junctions with high > impedance or frequency isolation. I understand it was done once with a > catwhisker type junction. > > Tom Taylor > The Gasification List is sponsored by > USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/ > and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com > > Other Sponsors, Archives and Information > http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm > http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive > http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml > http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/ > http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml > The Gasification List is sponsored by USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/ and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com Other Sponsors, Archives and Information http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/ http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml From mnorris at dekaresearch.com Mon Oct 2 13:35:28 2000 From: mnorris at dekaresearch.com (Mike Norris) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:44 2004 Subject: GAS-L: Whispertec efficiency comparison Message-ID: The argument compares a personal combined heat and power (CHP) or co-gen system, where the rejected heat of the Stirling (except for exhaust) is used along with the electrical power (converts 90% of the fuel to either relatively cool thermal energy ~ 50 C and electricity) to a central power station, where all the thermal heat is rejected to the environment and lost. Central stations typically have efficiencies in the 30 to 50% range depending on the technology. There is an addition 10% of the generated power lost in transmission. This comparison looks very different If one does not need the thermal energy of the PPS because it is summer time or the temperature of the rejected heat is too cool for process heat. It the thermal energy of the PPS is useless, then the efficiency drops to ~12% (0.7 liter per hour to produce 750 watts). I believe this efficiency argument explains the European rules on micro-CHP systems. The EU requires that micro-CHP system be controlled to produce the desired heating and take the electricity as a benefit. They can not be run to produce only electricity and reject all the heat to the environment. Mike Norris > -----Original Message----- > From: Luiz Alberto Magri [SMTP:luizmagri@yahoo.com] > Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2000 11:41 PM > To: gasification@crest.org > Subject: Re: GAS-L: Whispertec > > List, > > Within Whispertec data we can find the following: > > > 2. Because of the more efficient use of fossil fuels > > the Personal > > Power Station means much lower emission levels of > > greenhouse gases > > than is currently possible with centralized > > electricity generation. A > > WhisperGen will give the user greater than 90% > > efficiency in respect > > of useful heat and electricity from the fuel used. > > In the case of > > central generation the useful electricity, after > > transmission losses > > is generally less than half this level. > > I have two concerns referring to the above: > > 1) How to match electricy and heating needs using a > single personal system? It's likely it will run out of > design the most of the time. > > 2) That 90% to 50% difference sounds too great. Assume > the thermal cycle efficiency within the proposed > system is 25%, and heating or heat recovering > efficiecy is 80%, and we will need, in order to > generate 750 We + 6,000 Wth: > > - in a conventional grid+boiler system, 9,000 W fuel; > - in the proposed system, 8,250 W fuel. > > Even after correcting for real conditions, the figures > appear quite close. > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! > http://photos.yahoo.com/ > The Gasification List is sponsored by > USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/ > and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com > > Other Sponsors, Archives and Information > http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm > http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive > http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml > http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/ > http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml The Gasification List is sponsored by USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/ and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com Other Sponsors, Archives and Information http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/ http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml From jbland at enecon.com.au Mon Oct 2 13:55:35 2000 From: jbland at enecon.com.au (Jim Bland) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:44 2004 Subject: No Subject In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20000929143746.008d4a30@wgs1.btl.net> Message-ID: <200010021755.NAA11335@crest.solarhost.com> Subject: Re: GAS-L: burning arsenic Sender: owner-gasification@crest.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: gasification@crest.org Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 12:33:52 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Keith, It's not a good idea. Here's an extract from http://twinshare.crctourism.com.au/timber.htm "However, one issue of concern is that there is currently no ecologically sustainable way to dispose of unwanted CCA (copper chrome arsenic) treated timbers, off-cuts or sawdust. For example, burning results in the emission of toxic fumes, and if the wood is buried, chemicals may leach into the surrounding soil. The industry's recommended method of disposal requires burial in a sealed landfill." There was a more comprehensive article in Engineers Australia magazine earlier this year on this topic, but I can't find it on the web. Regards, Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: Keith Addison To: Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2000 2:42 AM Subject: GAS-L: burning arsenic > Pardon me, I'm not knowledgeable enough to know if this is a dumb > question or not: what happens to the arsenic (and other chemicals?) > in treated wood and sawdust when you burn it? Does it make for toxic > fumes or does it just break down harmlessly? > > TIA > > Keith Addison > Journey to Forever > Handmade Projects > Tokyo > http://journeytoforever.org/ > > The Gasification List is sponsored by > USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/ > and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com > > Other Sponsors, Archives and Information > http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm > http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive > http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml > http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/ > http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml The Gasification List is sponsored by USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/ and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com Other Sponsors, Archives and Information http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/ http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml From LINVENT at aol.com Mon Oct 2 18:12:08 2000 From: LINVENT at aol.com (LINVENT@aol.com) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:44 2004 Subject: GAS-L: turbo chargers Message-ID: <2d.1a18c61.270a617e@aol.com> Vernon Harris When a solid slinging blower throws materials, it generates some draft with it. Depending upon the pressure drop of the gasification system, it may be able to drive it, however, I would not count on a very deep bed for this purpose or fine materials. Turbo blowers on vehicles can do the job very nicely. I looked up the Nye turbo group's website and found some very interesting things they are doing with turbines, including operating a gasifier with it. A batch fed unit apparently. I would worry about erosion on the blades of the turbine in handling solids through the system. I asked if they had coupled the turbine to an alternator or have power generation capacity with it, and they had not tackled the problem of coupling the high shaft speed to a rotating generator. It is not easy. Still a very interesting area of endeavor and can bear some very nice fruit. Tom Taylor The Gasification List is sponsored by USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/ and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com Other Sponsors, Archives and Information http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/ http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml From LINVENT at aol.com Mon Oct 2 19:16:08 2000 From: LINVENT at aol.com (LINVENT@aol.com) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:44 2004 Subject: GAS-L: Power From Solar Heat (2000) Message-ID: In a message dated 10/2/00 10:01:42 AM, douglasmcc@cnl.com.au writes: << Douglas Costello >> Solar direct rectification: Oh Boy!. My understanding is that at one time, NBS(now NIST) made a bench trial and got it to work with something like a catwhisker. Remember germanium radios with catwhiskers? I have ideas about how to do it, but it would take some real funds to set up to do it. Things like submicron junctions. Anyhow, that is as much as I can remember, the last conversation was about 1968 about this topic while I was working at Sandia National Laboratories where I had a discussion with someone out there about it. Tom Taylor The Gasification List is sponsored by USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/ and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com Other Sponsors, Archives and Information http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/ http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml From c.downing at sri.org.au Mon Oct 2 19:57:38 2000 From: c.downing at sri.org.au (c.downing@sri.org.au) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:44 2004 Subject: GAS-L: Burner Systems Message-ID: Colleagues, you may find this interesting: http://www.sri.org.au/sbcstimber2.html The Gasification List is sponsored by USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/ and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com Other Sponsors, Archives and Information http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/ http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml From JackProot at aol.com Mon Oct 2 22:14:54 2000 From: JackProot at aol.com (JackProot@aol.com) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:44 2004 Subject: GAS-L: burning arsenic Message-ID: <30.aeac529.270a9a5d@aol.com> I have some doubts about what was said in this thread regarding CCA wood and arsenic. Allow a metallurgist to add his grain of salt. Arsenic is generally rather volatile. How much ? It requires the description of a curve, very much like water has a partial pressure at room temperature, property used to dry the clothes on the line, but it boils only at 100C. 212F for the old timers ;-) There are basically two scenarios : - in an oxidizing medium - excess of air, e.g. like while burning CCA wood - mainly arsenic oxide will be formed. This has a sizeable pressure from 200C. (A case study is that family from Montana that used CCA wood in a woodstove : before the end of winter, they were all in a hospital !) Over 500C, it is completely volatilized. - in a reducing medium (like most gasifiers) As metal will vaporize but this is only important over 350C, and complete at 800C (approximate figures, of course). Cu and Cr will always remain in the residue. If there is enough copper, part of As will remain with it as a speiss. In conclusion, As will be at least partly vaporized in any normal gasifier. It may not be a direct threat to your health (if you don't breathe the gas), but it will sure be a royal pain when it condenses and blocks your duct and your cooler (or the cylinders of your engine ...) A good filtering system is therefore required. Then, you'll have to dispose of the residue ... Jacques Proot The Gasification List is sponsored by USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/ and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com Other Sponsors, Archives and Information http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/ http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml From douglasmcc at cnl.com.au Tue Oct 3 06:05:33 2000 From: douglasmcc at cnl.com.au (Douglas Costello) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:44 2004 Subject: GAS-L: ejectors (was turbo chargers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <003a01c02d29$80f012a0$491f38cb@douglasmcc> Vernon, Yes an ejector is another term for them. If you are wishing to mix with the gas produced from the plant then using air would be the way to go. I know that "FESTO", a manufacturer of pneumatic control systems also produce and market such products to provide vacuum lift capabilities. They don't draw a really high vacuum as you can achieve with steam. I also read your remarks about using a forage blower. They are really just a large paddle fan and 540rpm seems low to me even if it is a 60" diameter blower. Friends have one to blow their silage up into the silo, a vertical lift of 120' and it is powered by a 50hp electric motor and it roars when in operation and it works at more than 540rpm. The diameter of the blower is 60" or very close to, they seem to work on a mixture of centrifugal throw and air transport. Would an axial fan not be better suited, they are readily available in a huge range of sizes. Hair dryer, electric heater, air conditioning systems, large air movement systems. Far more efficient than an bladed fan and quieter in operation as well. Regards Douglas Costello ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, 1 October 2000 4:58 Subject: Re: GAS-L: ejectors (was turbo chargers) > In a message dated 09/29/2000 7:33:24 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > douglasmcc@cnl.com.au writes: > > > How about using a steam jet to create your vacuum. You don't need a high > > pressure, minimum 50psi, and you can recapture most of the steam energy for > > reuse rather than allowing it to go to waste after use. > > > > I'm suggesting you consider using a micro steam jet refrigeration process. > > I know it sounds ridiculous but worth the consideration. > > > > Douglas C > > By a steam jet, do you mean a steam eductor (or ejector), something like a > Fox Venturi ejector, like the kind they use to freeze dry food? > > I was looking at them for a while, but somewhere along the line, I got > information that they consume a lot of steam - and the steam will then also > be mixed with the producer gas. > > Then I was thinking of using one with air as the motive gas, since I have to > mix air with the producer gas anyway. Tom Reed has mentioned ejectors > several times and I think an ejector is a good idea, but I haven't found much > technical information about them. > > I sure would be interested in pursuing that avenue further. > > Regards, > Vernon Harris > The Gasification List is sponsored by > USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/ > and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com > > Other Sponsors, Archives and Information > http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm > http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive > http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml > http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/ > http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml > The Gasification List is sponsored by USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/ and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com Other Sponsors, Archives and Information http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/ http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml From douglasmcc at cnl.com.au Tue Oct 3 06:19:28 2000 From: douglasmcc at cnl.com.au (Douglas Costello) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:44 2004 Subject: GAS-L: Micro Systems????? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <004a01c02d2b$702b3f60$491f38cb@douglasmcc> Here in Australia and in New Zealand a lot of the lumber yards have large incinerators to burn their sawdust and waste offcuts. These tend to be shaped like the cooling tower for a thermal power plant. Most of the heat is wasted but some capture a portion of it and use that to dry the air for their lumber drying kilns. Disposal of the waste raw material is a problem but they believe that incinerating it is the way to go. Further to this and the recent large forest fires in the mid West. Here we have controlled burns which are fires started on cool days that don't reach the high temperatures of an out of control fire. But recent studies here have sshown that these fires contribute significant pollutant loads to the environment and the same was found found the farmers burning off their crop stubbles. In Victoria the smallest mainland state the controlled forest burns and the agricultural sector burns add about 1300kg (2800lb) if dioxin to the atmosphere each year. This is just one of about ten serious pollutants generated because of the incomplete combustion of the combustable materials being burnt. This I suppose really raises a serious question mark for all low temperature burning and the degree of control gained over the exhaust gases produced?. Have there been any studies done on the exhaust gases produced from the gasifiers. Dioxin and PCB's are destroyed in high temeprature incinerators and these typically are found at cement manufacturing plants. I think they require temperatures in the 4000F range for complete combustion and breakdown into harmless components. Douglas Costello ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, 1 October 2000 3:23 Subject: Re: GAS-L: Micro Systems????? > > In a message dated 09/28/2000 2:08:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > > edeaver101@rcn.com writes: > > > > > I have an opportunity to hopefully fund a > > > business similar to the one you suggest. Here is the deal - we have > > almost > > > 20,000 horses in Loudoun County (mostly the western half). They are > > > proximal to each other. Each horse generates 40lb of manure each day. > > Many > > > of the farms use pine chips and/or sawdust as bedding material. I can > > get > > > and average of about $0.03 / kWh for any electricity I can generate. > > > > > > I have done some basic calculations on digesters coupled with a > > > microturbine. The numbers I have come up with do not even come close. > > > > > > I am now interested in either methanol production or gasification. > > > > > > Any suggestions? Money is available - although not in unlimited > amounts. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Eric Deaver > > You are in Virginia, but I thought you might be interested in this. Edward > Kropp, deputy director, says West Virginia's Division of Environmental > Protection has just approved an incinerator for a lumber yard, Gatewood > Products in Parkersburg W VA. The incinerator is described as "the size of > two dumpsters." This suggests it might be a gasification first stage and > excess air combustion second stage, although it is not specifically > mentioned. They will use the incinerator to burn damaged pallets - thus > avoid disposal costs. No mention is made of utilizing the heat for any > productive purpose. > > Also, a trash-to-steam plant operated by Robbins Resource Recovery Partners > LLP in Robbins, ILL has just been approved for shutdown. It is a 3 year old > facility that has filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy after Illinois repealed its > electric retail rate law which gave a tax credit to utilities that bought > power from waste-to-energy facilities. Even when these facilities are paid > tip fees for the fuel used, they still have difficulty without government > subsidies or intervention (e.g. flow control - which is gradually going > by-the-by - and has created enormous financial distress - notably in New > Jersey). > > Waste-to-energy is a tough nut to crack. Thankfully we have this forum in > which to commiserate over cheap fuel and cry in our collective beer about > lost opportunities in alternative fuels. > > Best, > > Vernon Harris > > The Gasification List is sponsored by > USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/ > and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com > > Other Sponsors, Archives and Information > http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm > http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive > http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml > http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/ > http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml > The Gasification List is sponsored by USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/ and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com Other Sponsors, Archives and Information http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/ http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml From douglasmcc at cnl.com.au Tue Oct 3 06:29:38 2000 From: douglasmcc at cnl.com.au (Douglas Costello) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:44 2004 Subject: GAS-L: Power From Solar Heat (2000) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <006901c02d2c$da1fc520$491f38cb@douglasmcc> Tom, Was it a more sophisticated thermopile set up Douglas Costello ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, 3 October 2000 9:12 Subject: Re: GAS-L: Power From Solar Heat (2000) > > In a message dated 10/2/00 10:01:42 AM, douglasmcc@cnl.com.au writes: > > << Douglas Costello >> > > Solar direct rectification: Oh Boy!. My understanding is that at one time, > NBS(now NIST) made a bench trial and got it to work with something like a > catwhisker. Remember germanium radios with catwhiskers? > I have ideas about how to do it, but it would take some real funds to set > up to do it. Things like submicron junctions. > Anyhow, that is as much as I can remember, the last conversation was about > 1968 about this topic while I was working at Sandia National Laboratories > where I had a discussion with someone out there about it. > > > Tom Taylor > The Gasification List is sponsored by > USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/ > and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com > > Other Sponsors, Archives and Information > http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm > http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive > http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml > http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/ > http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml > The Gasification List is sponsored by USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/ and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com Other Sponsors, Archives and Information http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/ http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml From kchishol at fox.nstn.ca Tue Oct 3 09:41:29 2000 From: kchishol at fox.nstn.ca (Kevin Chisholm) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:44 2004 Subject: GAS-L: Dioxanes: Was:Micro Systems????? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <39D9E17B.5B48685C@fox.nstn.ca> Dear Doug It is impossible to get dioxanes in a combustion process, unless chlorine is present. Two sources for chlorine are: 1: The Ocean 2: Chlorinated Pesticides If you want an excellent source of dioxanes, build a bonfire on the beach with driftwood that was previously soaked in ocean water. Another great way to make dioxanes is to spray the forest with chlorinated insecticides, and then set fire to the forest!! :-) Or, you could add wet seaweed to a nice hot fire. The interesting thing is that "agricultural wastes" seem to be a significant source of dioxanes, when they are burned. Could this perhaps be because of the use chlorinated insecticides on their crops???? Incineration is a loaded environmental issue, and some "Environmentalists" who are very much against incineration, sometimes only tell half the story, to support their anti-incinerator stance. "A truth thats told with ill intent beats all the lies one can invent." There is a significant output of dioxanes from municipal incinerators, where PVC plastics are burned in the presence of organic wastes. Thus, you have to be very careful in assessing the merits of incinerators, to ensure that the full picture is presented. Kindest regards, Kevin Chisholm Douglas Costello wrote: > > Here in Australia and in New Zealand a lot of the lumber yards have large > incinerators to burn their sawdust and waste offcuts. These tend to be > shaped like the cooling tower for a thermal power plant. Most of the heat > is wasted but some capture a portion of it and use that to dry the air for > their lumber drying kilns. > > Disposal of the waste raw material is a problem but they believe that > incinerating it is the way to go. > > Further to this and the recent large forest fires in the mid West. Here we > have controlled burns which are fires started on cool days that don't reach > the high temperatures of an out of control fire. But recent studies here > have sshown that these fires contribute significant pollutant loads to the > environment and the same was found found the farmers burning off their crop > stubbles. In Victoria the smallest mainland state the controlled forest > burns and the agricultural sector burns add about 1300kg (2800lb) if dioxin > to the atmosphere each year. This is just one of about ten serious > pollutants generated because of the incomplete combustion of the combustable > materials being burnt. This I suppose really raises a serious question mark > for all low temperature burning and the degree of control gained over the > exhaust gases produced?. > > Have there been any studies done on the exhaust gases produced from the > gasifiers. Dioxin and PCB's are destroyed in high temeprature incinerators > and these typically are found at cement manufacturing plants. I think they > require temperatures in the 4000F range for complete combustion and > breakdown into harmless components. > > Douglas Costello > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Sunday, 1 October 2000 3:23 > Subject: Re: GAS-L: Micro Systems????? > > > > In a message dated 09/28/2000 2:08:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > > > edeaver101@rcn.com writes: > > > > > > > I have an opportunity to hopefully fund a > > > > business similar to the one you suggest. Here is the deal - we have > > > almost > > > > 20,000 horses in Loudoun County (mostly the western half). They are > > > > proximal to each other. Each horse generates 40lb of manure each > day. > > > Many > > > > of the farms use pine chips and/or sawdust as bedding material. I > can > > > get > > > > and average of about $0.03 / kWh for any electricity I can generate. > > > > > > > > I have done some basic calculations on digesters coupled with a > > > > microturbine. The numbers I have come up with do not even come > close. > > > > > > > > I am now interested in either methanol production or gasification. > > > > > > > > Any suggestions? Money is available - although not in unlimited > > amounts. > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > Eric Deaver > > > > You are in Virginia, but I thought you might be interested in this. > Edward > > Kropp, deputy director, says West Virginia's Division of Environmental > > Protection has just approved an incinerator for a lumber yard, Gatewood > > Products in Parkersburg W VA. The incinerator is described as "the size > of > > two dumpsters." This suggests it might be a gasification first stage and > > excess air combustion second stage, although it is not specifically > > mentioned. They will use the incinerator to burn damaged pallets - thus > > avoid disposal costs. No mention is made of utilizing the heat for any > > productive purpose. > > > > Also, a trash-to-steam plant operated by Robbins Resource Recovery > Partners > > LLP in Robbins, ILL has just been approved for shutdown. It is a 3 year > old > > facility that has filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy after Illinois repealed > its > > electric retail rate law which gave a tax credit to utilities that bought > > power from waste-to-energy facilities. Even when these facilities are > paid > > tip fees for the fuel used, they still have difficulty without government > > subsidies or intervention (e.g. flow control - which is gradually going > > by-the-by - and has created enormous financial distress - notably in New > > Jersey). > > > > Waste-to-energy is a tough nut to crack. Thankfully we have this forum in > > which to commiserate over cheap fuel and cry in our collective beer about > > lost opportunities in alternative fuels. > > > > Best, > > > > Vernon Harris > > > > The Gasification List is sponsored by > > USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/ > > and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com > > > > Other Sponsors, Archives and Information > > http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm > > http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive > > http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml > > http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/ > > http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml > > > > The Gasification List is sponsored by > USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/ > and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com > > Other Sponsors, Archives and Information > http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm > http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive > http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml > http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/ > http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml The Gasification List is sponsored by USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/ and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com Other Sponsors, Archives and Information http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/ http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml From VHarris001 at aol.com Wed Oct 4 00:20:35 2000 From: VHarris001 at aol.com (VHarris001@aol.com) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:44 2004 Subject: GAS-L: ejectors and turbo chargers Message-ID: In a message dated 10/03/2000 6:03:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time, douglasmcc@cnl.com.au writes: > If you are wishing to mix with the > gas produced from the plant then using air would be the way to go. I know > that "FESTO", a manufacturer of pneumatic control systems also produce and > market such products to provide vacuum lift capabilities. They don't draw a > really high vacuum as you can achieve with steam. Hi Douglas and everyone, Would it be possible to use the turbocharger at the secondary air intake vent and blow that air into a low pressure, high volume ejector? The ejector (with no moving parts) then is the part that provides negative pressure to draw the producer gas through the gasifier. If this is possible, then you could keep the turbocharger out of the producer gas stream altogether. Use the turbocharger to blow secondary air into the ejector, use the ejector to provide the gasifier vacuum and mix the producer gas and secondary air. Most ejectors that I've heard of use 30 to 120 psi motive gas to operate. Is there any reason they wouldn't also work at lower pressures - say 5 to 15 psi or so and higher volumes? Comments anyone? Vernon Harris The Gasification List is sponsored by USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/ and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com Other Sponsors, Archives and Information http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/ http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml From douglasmcc at cnl.com.au Wed Oct 4 05:16:06 2000 From: douglasmcc at cnl.com.au (Douglas Costello) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:44 2004 Subject: GAS-L: Dioxanes: Was:Micro Systems????? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000901c02deb$cd7a9060$191f38cb@douglasmcc> Kevin, Thanks for your extra information on the dioxins. I suspect it is the result of the pesticides. Would salty soil be a contributor as large areas here are salt affected or could the salt even in small amounts be absorbed by the plants and built into their cell walls?. Douglas Costello ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Chisholm" To: Sent: Tuesday, 3 October 2000 23:39 Subject: Re: GAS-L: Dioxanes: Was:Micro Systems????? > Dear Doug > > It is impossible to get dioxanes in a combustion process, unless > chlorine is present. Two sources for chlorine are: > 1: The Ocean > 2: Chlorinated Pesticides > > If you want an excellent source of dioxanes, build a bonfire on the > beach with driftwood that was previously soaked in ocean water. Another > great way to make dioxanes is to spray the forest with chlorinated > insecticides, and then set fire to the forest!! :-) Or, you could add > wet seaweed to a nice hot fire. > > The interesting thing is that "agricultural wastes" seem to be a > significant source of dioxanes, when they are burned. Could this perhaps > be because of the use chlorinated insecticides on their crops???? > > Incineration is a loaded environmental issue, and some > "Environmentalists" who are very much against incineration, sometimes > only tell half the story, to support their anti-incinerator stance. > > "A truth thats told with ill intent beats all the lies one can invent." > > There is a significant output of dioxanes from municipal incinerators, > where PVC plastics are burned in the presence of organic wastes. > > Thus, you have to be very careful in assessing the merits of > incinerators, to ensure that the full picture is presented. > > Kindest regards, > > Kevin Chisholm > > Douglas Costello wrote: > > > > Here in Australia and in New Zealand a lot of the lumber yards have large > > incinerators to burn their sawdust and waste offcuts. These tend to be > > shaped like the cooling tower for a thermal power plant. Most of the heat > > is wasted but some capture a portion of it and use that to dry the air for > > their lumber drying kilns. > > > > Disposal of the waste raw material is a problem but they believe that > > incinerating it is the way to go. > > > > Further to this and the recent large forest fires in the mid West. Here we > > have controlled burns which are fires started on cool days that don't reach > > the high temperatures of an out of control fire. But recent studies here > > have sshown that these fires contribute significant pollutant loads to the > > environment and the same was found found the farmers burning off their crop > > stubbles. In Victoria the smallest mainland state the controlled forest > > burns and the agricultural sector burns add about 1300kg (2800lb) if dioxin > > to the atmosphere each year. This is just one of about ten serious > > pollutants generated because of the incomplete combustion of the combustable > > materials being burnt. This I suppose really raises a serious question mark > > for all low temperature burning and the degree of control gained over the > > exhaust gases produced?. > > > > Have there been any studies done on the exhaust gases produced from the > > gasifiers. Dioxin and PCB's are destroyed in high temeprature incinerators > > and these typically are found at cement manufacturing plants. I think they > > require temperatures in the 4000F range for complete combustion and > > breakdown into harmless components. > > > > Douglas Costello > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: > > To: > > Sent: Sunday, 1 October 2000 3:23 > > Subject: Re: GAS-L: Micro Systems????? > > > > > > In a message dated 09/28/2000 2:08:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > > > > edeaver101@rcn.com writes: > > > > > > > > > I have an opportunity to hopefully fund a > > > > > business similar to the one you suggest. Here is the deal - we have > > > > almost > > > > > 20,000 horses in Loudoun County (mostly the western half). They are > > > > > proximal to each other. Each horse generates 40lb of manure each > > day. > > > > Many > > > > > of the farms use pine chips and/or sawdust as bedding material. I > > can > > > > get > > > > > and average of about $0.03 / kWh for any electricity I can generate. > > > > > > > > > > I have done some basic calculations on digesters coupled with a > > > > > microturbine. The numbers I have come up with do not even come > > close. > > > > > > > > > > I am now interested in either methanol production or gasification. > > > > > > > > > > Any suggestions? Money is available - although not in unlimited > > > amounts. > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > Eric Deaver > > > > > > You are in Virginia, but I thought you might be interested in this. > > Edward > > > Kropp, deputy director, says West Virginia's Division of Environmental > > > Protection has just approved an incinerator for a lumber yard, Gatewood > > > Products in Parkersburg W VA. The incinerator is described as "the size > > of > > > two dumpsters." This suggests it might be a gasification first stage and > > > excess air combustion second stage, although it is not specifically > > > mentioned. They will use the incinerator to burn damaged pallets - thus > > > avoid disposal costs. No mention is made of utilizing the heat for any > > > productive purpose. > > > > > > Also, a trash-to-steam plant operated by Robbins Resource Recovery > > Partners > > > LLP in Robbins, ILL has just been approved for shutdown. It is a 3 year > > old > > > facility that has filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy after Illinois repealed > > its > > > electric retail rate law which gave a tax credit to utilities that bought > > > power from waste-to-energy facilities. Even when these facilities are > > paid > > > tip fees for the fuel used, they still have difficulty without government > > > subsidies or intervention (e.g. flow control - which is gradually going > > > by-the-by - and has created enormous financial distress - notably in New > > > Jersey). > > > > > > Waste-to-energy is a tough nut to crack. Thankfully we have this forum in > > > which to commiserate over cheap fuel and cry in our collective beer about > > > lost opportunities in alternative fuels. > > > > > > Best, > > > > > > Vernon Harris > > > > > > The Gasification List is sponsored by > > > USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/ > > > and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com > > > > > > Other Sponsors, Archives and Information > > > http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm > > > http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive > > > http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml > > > http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/ > > > http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml > > > > > > > The Gasification List is sponsored by > > USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/ > > and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com > > > > Other Sponsors, Archives and Information > > http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm > > http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive > > http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml > > http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/ > > http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml > The Gasification List is sponsored by > USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/ > and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com > > Other Sponsors, Archives and Information > http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm > http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive > http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml > http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/ > http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml > The Gasification List is sponsored by USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/ and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com Other Sponsors, Archives and Information http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/ http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml From kchishol at fox.nstn.ca Wed Oct 4 07:37:53 2000 From: kchishol at fox.nstn.ca (Kevin Chisholm) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:44 2004 Subject: GAS-L: Dioxanes: Was:Micro Systems????? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <39DB15BB.47432CDC@fox.nstn.ca> Dear Douglas Douglas Costello wrote: > > Kevin, > > Thanks for your extra information on the dioxins. I suspect it is the > result of the pesticides. Would salty soil be a contributor as large areas > here are salt affected As I understand it, chlorine has a very strong affinity for organic hydrocarbons, and as long as chlorine has an opportunity to contact an organic hydrocarbon, dioxanes may form. Temperature and concentration are important. Having said this, simply salting hay won't create dioxanes. But the burning of salted hay can. A chloride bearing salt on the ground may, or may not, contribute chlorine to agricultural waste burning on the surface of the ground. Hard to say specifically, but it would be a very test to run. or could the salt even in small amounts be absorbed > by the plants and built into their cell walls?. > I would guess that this could be a possible mechanism. Consider if the cell walls had 1 part per million chlorine, and then assume that with burning, dioxanes were produced which contained only 1/1000 th of the original chlorine; this could create dioxanes at concentrations in the order of 1000 parts per billion. A very important factor to keep in mind here is the analytical precision possible.... I understand it is relatively easy to get Part per Billion assays on products containing dioxanes. So, when it is said that "burning creates dioxanes", thats true, but one must not lose perspective on quantities. If the above mechanism is at play now, it has been at play for millions of years. It is not as if dioxanes are a 20th Century creation. It would indeed be very interesting to see dioxanes presented in a valid historical context: How would the present universal environment be different if there never were dioxans?? Kindest regards, Kevin Chisholm > Douglas Costello > > The Gasification List is sponsored by USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/ and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com Other Sponsors, Archives and Information http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/ http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml From LINVENT at aol.com Wed Oct 4 12:24:04 2000 From: LINVENT at aol.com (LINVENT@aol.com) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:44 2004 Subject: GAS-L: Dioxanes: Was:Micro Systems????? Message-ID: <92.ab7a635.270cb2da@aol.com> Douglas Costello, All cells contain some chlorine. It is one of the vital nutrients for plant growth. Usually it is in the few PPM level, up to hundreds of ppm. Dioxin formation will occur with these compounds, but at very low levels. In order to have chlorine enter into the reaction, it has to be disaccociated from the accompanying ion, whether sodium, chlorine or potassium. Due to the high energy of bonding, the disassociation may not occur under thermal conditions, as an example, chlorine gas is made from seawater or salt dome brine by electrolysis as thermal disassociation will not occur. For this reason, seawater in a fire will not produce much free chlorine for thermal reaction, Hit salt with an oxygen-acetlyene torch and see how much chlorine is evolved, not much. the salt melts or vaporizes as sodium chloride. Unbound chlorine will react within thermal boundaries but most plants do not contain much unbound chlorine as it would be very toxic to the plant. Rather high temperatures are required to form dioxins and these are not always present in common biomass combustion temperatures, even if unbound chlorine is present. Thermal disassociation of PVC is another issue as the chlorine is only bound to carbon and it breaks off when the carbon is destroyed by oxidation. Pop quiz-what happens to the chlorine in freon when burned? Tom Taylor The Gasification List is sponsored by USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/ and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com Other Sponsors, Archives and Information http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/ http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml From LINVENT at aol.com Wed Oct 4 16:50:36 2000 From: LINVENT at aol.com (LINVENT@aol.com) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:44 2004 Subject: GAS-L: Micro Systems????? Message-ID: <34.b45242c.270cf151@aol.com> The Gasification List is sponsored by USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/ and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com Other Sponsors, Archives and Information http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/ http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml From keith at journeytoforever.org Wed Oct 4 16:52:38 2000 From: keith at journeytoforever.org (Keith Addison) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:44 2004 Subject: GAS-L: Re: burning arsenic In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20000929143746.008d4a30@wgs1.btl.net> Message-ID: Jim, Jack, Andrew, Scott, Leland, et al. Thanks so much for the information on treated sawdust. That's exactly what I need to know. This list is a great oracle! Jim wrote: >It's not a good idea. Here's an extract from >http://twinshare.crctourism.com.au/timber.htm > >"However, one issue of concern is that there is currently no ecologically >sustainable way to dispose of unwanted CCA (copper chrome arsenic) treated >timbers, off-cuts or sawdust. For example, burning results in the emission >of toxic fumes, and if the wood is buried, chemicals may leach into the >surrounding soil. The industry's recommended method of disposal requires >burial in a sealed landfill." > >There was a more comprehensive article in Engineers Australia magazine >earlier this year on this topic, but I can't find it on the web. But the American Wood Preservers Insitute (http://www.awpi.org/) says: "There are few limitations to the use of CCA-treated wood, and it can be disposed of as ordinary trash." And: "Dispose of treated wood by ordinary trash collection or burial." (Approved by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, 8/87) It does say you shouldn't burn it though: "Treated wood should not be burned in open fires or in stoves, fireplaces, or residential boilers because toxic chemicals may be produced as part of the smoke and ashes. Treated wood from commercial or industrial use (e.g., construction sites) may be burned only in commercial or industrial incinerators or boilers in accordance with state and Federal regulations." It also says: "The extra durability of pressure treatment makes treated wood the perfect product for building raised beds, terraced gardens, grape or tomato stakes, mushroom trays, vineyard supports, retaining walls, trellises, arbors, garden furniture, compost bins, walkway steps, flower bed edging, or planters. Any assertion that gardeners should not grow edibles in planters or raised beds made with treated wood is without basis." And: "Arsenic levels in soil samples taken from the garden were no more than what occurs naturally in any soil. Further, the levels of arsenic one inch from the timbers and 12 inches from the timbers were the same, indicating no migration of the preservative from the timbers." The USDA Forest Products Laboratory, the Environmental Protection Agency and several major universities agree. But the National Coalition Against the Misuse of Pesticides says in "Poison Poles - A Report About Their Toxic Trail and Safer Alternatives" (http://www.ncamp.org/poisonpoles/index.html#top): Studies on the movement of arsenic-based wood preservatives from poles have found that they move from poles into soil and from the soil into aquatic ecosystems. The degree to which arsenicals leach is strongly dependent on pH. Much more chemical leaches i nto acid water than into neutral or basic water. Therefore, we should expect arsenicals to leach more in environments high in soil humic acids or where acid precipitation has affected the pH of the soil.15 15. Keith R. Solomon and John E. Warner, 1990. Persistence, leaching, and bioavailability of CCA and pentachlorophenol wood preservatives. Final report to the Ontario Ministry of the Environment, July 2. Cited in Cox, 1991. http://www.ncamp.org/poisonpoles/arsenicals.html Now who should we believe, do you think? Another question: is there a good way of telling what wood ISN'T pressure-treated? Thanks again Best wishes to all Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Tokyo http://journeytoforever.org/ The Gasification List is sponsored by USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/ and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com Other Sponsors, Archives and Information http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/ http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml From kchishol at fox.nstn.ca Wed Oct 4 18:08:54 2000 From: kchishol at fox.nstn.ca (Kevin Chisholm) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:44 2004 Subject: GAS-L: Dioxanes: Was:Micro Systems????? In-Reply-To: <92.ab7a635.270cb2da@aol.com> Message-ID: <39DBAA04.73F5C6B6@fox.nstn.ca> Dear Tom You bring up some very valid points. In particular, heating NaCl would simply produce NaCl vapor, and no free chlorine. However, what would you think about the following sort of reaction, or family of reactions? NaCl + C + H20 ---> Na2O +/-HCl +/-CO +/-CCl4 Would not the presence of carbon and water vapor as present in a fire tend to decompose the NaCl, to put the Chlorine into a much more reactive form?? Thanks for your comments. Kevin Chisholm LINVENT@aol.com wrote: > > Douglas Costello, > All cells contain some chlorine. It is one of the vital nutrients for > plant growth. Usually it is in the few PPM level, up to hundreds of ppm. > Dioxin formation will occur with these compounds, but at very low levels. In > order to have chlorine enter into the reaction, it has to be disaccociated > from the accompanying ion, whether sodium, chlorine or potassium. Due to the > high energy of bonding, the disassociation may not occur under thermal > conditions, as an example, chlorine gas is made from seawater or salt dome > brine by electrolysis as thermal disassociation will not occur. For this > reason, seawater in a fire will not produce much free chlorine for thermal > reaction, Hit salt with an oxygen-acetlyene torch and see how much chlorine > is evolved, not much. the salt melts or vaporizes as sodium chloride. Unbound > chlorine will react within thermal boundaries but most plants do not contain > much unbound chlorine as it would be very toxic to the plant. Rather high > temperatures are required to form dioxins and these are not always present in > common biomass combustion temperatures, even if unbound chlorine is present. > Thermal disassociation of PVC is another issue as the chlorine is only > bound to carbon and it breaks off when the carbon is destroyed by oxidation. > Pop quiz-what happens to the chlorine in freon when burned? > > Tom Taylor > The Gasification List is sponsored by > USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/ > and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com > > Other Sponsors, Archives and Information > http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm > http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive > http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml > http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/ > http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml The Gasification List is sponsored by USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/ and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com Other Sponsors, Archives and Information http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/ http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml From j.joyce at sri.org.au Wed Oct 4 20:58:09 2000 From: j.joyce at sri.org.au (j.joyce@sri.org.au) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:44 2004 Subject: GAS-L: turbo chargers Message-ID: <200010050058.UAA18777@crest.solarhost.com> To: gasification@crest.org X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.1 (Intl) 16 July 1999 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 08:45:26 +1000 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on Hub/SRI(Release 5.0.4 |June 8, 2000) at 10/05/2000 08:45:33 AM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii While you are considering turbo chargers don't forget automotive superchargers. I have a friend who purchased a second hand unit and installed it on his 4 cylinder 2 litre Toyota engine. Cost him AU$300 from a Japanese parts importer. I think these units can provide up to 7 psi boost in an automotive application ... but more importantly they have gearing and drive arrangements that allow the supercharger blower to be driven at something like 10,000 - 50,000+ rpm (I think), via an inital 2000-5000 rpm : 3000-7500 rpm V-belt drive off the engine. Perhaps this part could be adapted for harnessing the shaft output from a turbo charger. James Joyce Sugar Research Insitiute Mackay ------------------------------- This email message (including any file attachments transmitted with it) is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorised alteration, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you received this email in error, please notify the sender by return email and destroy all copies of the original message. Any confidentiality or legal professional privilege is not waived or lost by any mistaken delivery of the email. ------------------------------- The Gasification List is sponsored by USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/ and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com Other Sponsors, Archives and Information http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/ http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml From LINVENT at aol.com Wed Oct 4 22:37:39 2000 From: LINVENT at aol.com (LINVENT@aol.com) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:44 2004 Subject: GAS-L: Thermopiles vs. recification Message-ID: Dear Dennis, No, I do not believe so. Thermal conversion is not as efficient as direct conversion with rectification. Nuclear power generators in space use a hot p:n junction using silicon which is a great deal more efficient than using thermopiles. An interesting side note is the history of a company called Thermo Electron. They started with trying to extract energy from low temperature thermal sources using devices such as ionized cerium or other low ionization point materials and trying to strip the ions from the ionized media. They never succeeded but found that they could succeed doing business deals. To save sending another e-mail, the supercharger has been for decades used for additional power boost. It is faster response than the turbo charger. However, they are notoriously shorter lived than turbos. Every 2 cycle Detroit Diesel has a "blower" on it and may have a turbo charger in addition ( I happen to have such an engine in a truck). We also have a Chevy 454 supercharged natural gas irrigation engine set up with a 75kw generator. It has a great deal more power than naturally aspirated engines. Tom Taylor The Gasification List is sponsored by USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/ and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com Other Sponsors, Archives and Information http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/ http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml From LINVENT at aol.com Wed Oct 4 23:17:19 2000 From: LINVENT at aol.com (LINVENT@aol.com) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:44 2004 Subject: GAS-L: Dioxanes: Was:Micro Systems????? Message-ID: In a message dated 10/4/00 3:07:29 PM, kchishol@fox.nstn.ca writes: << Dear Tom You bring up some very valid points. In particular, heating NaCl would simply produce NaCl vapor, and no free chlorine. However, what would you think about the following sort of reaction, or family of reactions? NaCl + C + H20 ---> Na2O +/-HCl +/-CO +/-CCl4 Would not the presence of carbon and water vapor as present in a fire tend to decompose the NaCl, to put the Chlorine into a much more reactive form?? Well, I will have to look up the binding energy on the NaCl to see if there is enough thermal heat or if there is a possible C reaction to break the bonds. The balance isn't there, with 5Cl in the product, you would have to have 5NaCl to start with. Na2O immediately goes to NaOH in the presence of water, and I would think neutralizes HCL back to NaCl? CO of course if there was not enough O2 for a complete reaction (which is not included in the initial reaction). CCl4-hmm, carbon tetrachloride from a fire? It is fairly aromatic and I have never smelled it from any fire. Has anyone smelled it from burning driftwood on a beach? The simple reaction of Cl+O2->ClO2 is reduced in a gasifier by H2 to form HCL as opposed to ClO2, a precursor to dioxins. Tom Taylor Thanks for your comments. Kevin Chisholm LINVENT@aol.com wrote: > > Douglas Costello, > All cells contain some chlorine. It is one of the vital nutrients for > plant growth. Usually it is in the few PPM level, up to hundreds of ppm. > Dioxin formation will occur with these compounds, but at very low levels. In > order to have chlorine enter into the reaction, it has to be disaccociated > from the accompanying ion, whether sodium, chlorine or potassium. Due to the > high energy of bonding, the disassociation may not occur under thermal > conditions, as an example, chlorine gas is made from seawater or salt dome > brine by electrolysis as thermal disassociation will not occur. For this > reason, seawater in a fire will not produce much free chlorine for thermal > reaction, Hit salt with an oxygen-acetlyene torch and see how much chlorine > is evolved, not much. the salt melts or vaporizes as sodium chloride. Unbound > chlorine will react within thermal boundaries but most plants do not contain > much unbound chlorine as it would be very toxic to the plant. Rather high > temperatures are required to form dioxins and these are not always present in > common biomass combustion temperatures, even if unbound chlorine is present. > Thermal disassociation of PVC is another issue as the chlorine is only > bound to carbon and it breaks off when the carbon is destroyed by oxidation. > Pop quiz-what happens to the chlorine in freon when burned? > > Tom Taylor > The Gasification List is sponsored by > USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/ > and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com > > Other Sponsors, Archives and Information > http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm > http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive > http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml > http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/ > http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml The Gasification List is sponsored by USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/ and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com Other Sponsors, Archives and Information http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/ http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-zc01.mx.aol.com (rly-zc01.mail.aol.com [172.31.33.1]) by air-zc03.mail.aol.com (v76_r1.8) with ESMTP; Wed, 04 Oct 2000 18:07:29 -0400 Received: from crest.solarhost.com ([63.87.233.1]) by rly-zc01.mx.aol.com (v75_b3.9) with ESMTP; Wed, 04 Oct 2000 18:07:11 -0400 Received: from localhost (mail@localhost) by crest.solarhost.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA11872; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 18:09:44 -0400 Received: by crest.solarhost.com (bulk_mailer v1.9); Wed, 4 Oct 2000 18:08:56 -0400 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by crest.solarhost.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA11829 for gasification-outgoing; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 18:08:54 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: crest.solarhost.com: majordomo set sender to owner-gasification@crest.org using -f Received: from mail1.toronto.istar.net (mail1.toronto.istar.net [209.89.75.17]) by crest.solarhost.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA11823 for ; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 18:08:51 -0400 Received: from dynagen5.uccb.ns.ca ([142.12.28.65] helo=fox.nstn.ca) by mail1.toronto.istar.net with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #1) id 13gwgD-0001RV-00 for gasification@crest.org; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 18:06:25 -0400 Message-ID: <39DBAA04.73F5C6B6@fox.nstn.ca> Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2000 19:07:00 -0300 From: Kevin Chisholm X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gasification@crest.org Subject: Re: GAS-L: Dioxanes: Was:Micro Systems????? References: <92.ab7a635.270cb2da@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-gasification@crest.org Reply-To: gasification@crest.org Precedence: bulk >> The Gasification List is sponsored by USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/ and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com Other Sponsors, Archives and Information http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/ http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml From sartikka at indosat.net.id Thu Oct 5 23:46:43 2000 From: sartikka at indosat.net.id (PT. Sarana Plastik Perkasa) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:44 2004 Subject: GAS-L: Flow Production Message-ID: <200010060346.XAA24799@crest.solarhost.com> Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 09:53:34 +0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Dear sir, Due to reduce the waste of saw dust we would like to ask for help by explaining the flow of production for makind charcoal briquettes from saw dust. Beforehand many thanks to you. Yours sincerely, Harsono The Gasification List is sponsored by USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/ and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com Other Sponsors, Archives and Information http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/ http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml From Reedtb2 at cs.com Mon Oct 9 09:59:54 2000 From: Reedtb2 at cs.com (Reedtb2@cs.com) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:44 2004 Subject: GAS-L: Re: firewalking question Message-ID: <27.be24519.2713282a@cs.com> Dear Richard: I applaud your effort to de-mystify fire walking - and any other illusions. They are based on people's intuitive expectations and intuition isn't correct all of the time. When they are wrong, mystics can prey on them (and themselves) i good conscience. Let me propose an explanation and simple test to demonstrate it. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Our fingers are good meters of thermal conductivity. Touch hot wood and it feels warm. Touch hot metal and you get burned. Why? Wood is a poor conductor of heat. You can sit your fanny on a wooden bench in a sauna at the boiling point of water and not get burned, since your fanny removes heat from the interface faster than the wood can deliver it. So the wood is cooled at the interface more than the skin heats. Aluminum is a good conductor of heat. DON'T sit on an aluminum bench at 100C or you'll be badly burned. The aluminum carries heat to the interface faster than your fanny can remove it. Now for the fire walking: Charcoal is a very poor heat conductor. Your skin is "water cooled" by the blood circulating just below the surface. So the incandescent charcoal interface is immediately cooled close to the temperature of your blood and presto, no burn. The heat is produced by combustion of the charcoal at the surface, so contact with your skin denies oxygen and it stops burning instantly and is quenched. (Do pictures show cold footprints at the instant the foot leaves? Can you tell me if this experiment ever leaves any marks at all? ) ~~~~~~~~~ Here's a simple test. I have a Taylor oven thermometer from the hardware store that has a 1/8 inch diameter sensor, sharpened at the end that you insert into meat, bread etc. Insert it into a damp sponge (to simulate your moist flesh) and press up against the hot charcoal. I doubt if you will see an increase of more than 10 C. Now drill a hole almost to the surface of a piece of cold charcoal (poor conductor) and press it against the hot charcoal. Should heat to 300-400 C. (Don't burn out the sensor.) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ You don't need to understand the following in detail to understand the effect, but this is the scientific explanation: Chemical engineers use a "dimensionless number" called the Biot number. It compares the heat transfer rate TO a surface to the rate at which heat is removed FROM the surface. Nbiot = (Heat in)/(heat out) = h r/k where h is the heat transferred TO the surface (watts/m2-degree), r is the radius or size of the particle and k is the thermal conductivity of the surface (watts/m2-(degree/meter)). When Nbiot << 1, the object being heated will be almost a constant temperature and slowly come to the temperature of the source. (Flame heating a piece of copper, high thermal conductivity, k = 4 W/cm-C). When Nbiot >>1, the interface temperature will be the same as the heat source while the inside is still cold. (Flame heating a piece of charcoal, very low thermal conductivity, k = .016 W/cm-C, 250 times smaller than copper.) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I hope you can try this and report (or I'll make tests if you wan't to pursue it). People have been puzzled and misled too long. Yours truly, TOM REED THE BIOMASS ENERGY FOUNDATION In a message dated 9/21/00 9:07:03 AM Mountain Daylight Time, psyqrw@herts.ac.uk writes: << hi there sorry to write to you out of the blue. I have recently seen your name on the web and read your contributions to a debate on conductivity and firewalking. I am a psychologist in britain and I recently organised a very long firewalk for the BBC. We burnt about 60 tons of wood and made a bed about 50ft long. The surface temp was about 650C, and I know that skin burns at about 55C. Is there anyway of predicting how many steps our walkers should have been able to walk across the bed before getting burnt - i.e., some sort of formula from the thermal conductivity of charcoal and skin? It would be great to have such a prediction as many or our walkers believed that some paranormal force was protecting them and I would like to demonstrate that it was just science at work. Feel free to circulate this to anyone/any list that you think might be able to help. Hope you can help and look forward to hearing from you. Best Richard Dr Richard Wiseman Psychology Department University of Hertfordshire http://phoenix.herts.ac.uk/PWRU/RWhomepage.html Direct tel: 01707 284628 Direct fax: 01707 285073 Mobile: 0779 0905219 >> The Gasification List is sponsored by USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/ and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com Other Sponsors, Archives and Information http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/ http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml From jaakko.saastamoinen at vtt.fi Mon Oct 9 11:47:20 2000 From: jaakko.saastamoinen at vtt.fi (Jaakko Saastamoinen) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:44 2004 Subject: GAS-L: Re: firewalking question Message-ID: <3.0.32.20001009184337.00b08780@vttmail.vtt.fi> Dear Dr Richard Wiseman. it is possible to demystify this problem how it is possible to walk by bare feet on a charcoal bed by solving a heat conduction problem. 1) One approximates charcoal and the foot as two semi-infinite solids, because the penetration depth of temperature profile is thin due to short contact time during walking. 2) The physical problem is described by two coupled Fourier equations for heat conduction in the char and in the foot. 3) The boundary conditions at the contact interface are continuous temperature and heat flux. It is possible to solve the temperature in the foot as function of time. The solution for the temperature inside the foot during first step during contact is T = T0 + DELTA T*erfc[x/(at)^0.5]/(1+gamma) where x is distance from the contact plane, t is time a is thermal diffusivity of foot T0 is initial temperature (T0 = 37 C during first step) DELTA T = (Tcharbed - Tfoot) = 650 - 20 = 630 C (during first step) erfc is complementary error function The important dimensionless parameter here is gamma defined as gamma = {[(heat conductivity of foot)*(density of foot)*(specific heat of foot)/[(heat conductivity of charcoal)*(density of char coal)*(specific heat of char coal)]}^0.5 When x = 0 at the contact plane, it is seen that the temperature at the interface will be constant (does not depend on time) during first step T(x=0) = T0 + DELTA T/(1+gamma) We get approximately (somebody may have more accurate values for the properties of foot and charcoal) gamma={[0.7*1000*3000]/(0.1*100*1000)]}^0.5 = 14.49 Then we get for the first step T(x=0) = 20+630/(1+14.49) = 60.7 C. The contact temperature will gradually grow, when taking more steps, since more heat will be transferred accumulated to the feet and the initial temperature of the foot skin will be higher (than 37 C). However, in this analysis, no cooling effect of blood in the foot was accounted for. Thus, the contact temperature will be lower in practice. The foot will also be cooled during the time when it is lifted (by blood circulation). How to make the firewalking not too hot? One has to choose charcoal with low density (do not try this with Mike Antal's high yield charcoal), low heat conductivity and low specific heat. It seems also that it is possible to optimize the speed of the walking, if the coolig by the blood is modelled. Best regards Jaakko Saastamoinen At 09:54 9.10.2000 EDT, you wrote: >Dear Richard: > >I applaud your effort to de-mystify fire walking - and any other illusions. >They are based on people's intuitive expectations and intuition isn't correct >all of the time. When they are wrong, mystics can prey on them (and >themselves) i good conscience. Let me propose an explanation and simple test >to demonstrate it. > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >Our fingers are good meters of thermal conductivity. Touch hot wood and it >feels warm. Touch hot metal and you get burned. Why? > >Wood is a poor conductor of heat. You can sit your fanny on a wooden bench >in a sauna at the boiling point of water and not get burned, since your fanny >removes heat from the interface faster than the wood can deliver it. So the >wood is cooled at the interface more than the skin heats. > >Aluminum is a good conductor of heat. DON'T sit on an aluminum bench at 100C >or you'll be badly burned. The aluminum carries heat to the interface faster >than your fanny can remove it. > >Now for the fire walking: Charcoal is a very poor heat conductor. Your skin >is "water cooled" by the blood circulating just below the surface. So the >incandescent charcoal interface is immediately cooled close to the >temperature of your blood and presto, no burn. The heat is produced by >combustion of the charcoal at the surface, so contact with your skin denies >oxygen and it stops burning instantly and is quenched. (Do pictures show >cold footprints at the instant the foot leaves? Can you tell me if this >experiment ever leaves any marks at all? ) > ~~~~~~~~~ >Here's a simple test. I have a Taylor oven thermometer from the hardware >store that has a 1/8 inch diameter sensor, sharpened at the end that you >insert into meat, bread etc. Insert it into a damp sponge (to simulate your >moist flesh) and press up against the hot charcoal. I doubt if you will see >an increase of more than 10 C. > >Now drill a hole almost to the surface of a piece of cold charcoal (poor >conductor) and press it against the hot charcoal. Should heat to 300-400 C. >(Don't burn out the sensor.) > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >You don't need to understand the following in detail to understand the >effect, but this is the scientific explanation: > >Chemical engineers use a "dimensionless number" called the Biot number. It >compares the heat transfer rate TO a surface to the rate at which heat is >removed FROM the surface. > > Nbiot = (Heat in)/(heat out) = h r/k > >where h is the heat transferred TO the surface (watts/m2-degree), r is the >radius or size of the particle and k is the thermal conductivity of the >surface (watts/m2-(degree/meter)). > >When Nbiot << 1, the object being heated will be almost a constant >temperature and slowly come to the temperature of the source. (Flame heating >a piece of copper, high thermal conductivity, k = 4 W/cm-C). > >When Nbiot >>1, the interface temperature will be the same as the heat source >while the >inside is still cold. (Flame heating a piece of charcoal, very low thermal >conductivity, k = .016 W/cm-C, 250 times smaller than copper.) > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >I hope you can try this and report (or I'll make tests if you wan't to pursue >it). People have been puzzled and misled too long. > >Yours truly, TOM REED THE BIOMASS ENERGY FOUNDATION > > >In a message dated 9/21/00 9:07:03 AM Mountain Daylight Time, >psyqrw@herts.ac.uk writes: > ><< > hi there > sorry to write to you out of the blue. I have recently seen your name on > the web and read your contributions to a debate on conductivity and > firewalking. > > I am a psychologist in britain and I recently organised a very long > firewalk for the BBC. We burnt about 60 tons of wood and made a bed about > 50ft long. The surface temp was about 650C, and I know that skin burns at > about 55C. Is there anyway of predicting how many steps our walkers should > have been able to walk across the bed before getting burnt - i.e., some > sort of formula from the thermal conductivity of charcoal and skin? > It would be great to have such a prediction as many or our walkers believed > that some paranormal force was protecting them and I would like to > demonstrate that it was just science at work. > Feel free to circulate this to anyone/any list that you think might be able > to help. > Hope you can help and look forward to hearing from you. > Best > Richard > > Dr Richard Wiseman > Psychology Department > University of Hertfordshire > http://phoenix.herts.ac.uk/PWRU/RWhomepage.html > Direct tel: 01707 284628 > Direct fax: 01707 285073 > Mobile: 0779 0905219 > >> >The Gasification List is sponsored by >USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/ >and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com > >Other Sponsors, Archives and Information >http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm >http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive >http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml >http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/ >http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml > > __________________________________________ Jaakko Saastamoinen VTT Energy Box 1603, 40101 Jyvaskyla Finland phone +358 14 672 547, fax +358 14 672 596 __________________________________________ The Gasification List is sponsored by USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/ and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com Other Sponsors, Archives and Information http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/ http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml From jsmeenk at iastate.edu Mon Oct 9 12:02:01 2000 From: jsmeenk at iastate.edu (Jerod Smeenk) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:44 2004 Subject: GAS-L: Re: firewalking question In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20001009184337.00b08780@vttmail.vtt.fi> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20001009105703.00af3c20@jsmeenk.mail.iastate.edu> I am guessing low emissivity (minimal radiation effects) would be another beneficial characteristic of the charcoal!?! Jerod >How to make the firewalking not too hot? One has to choose charcoal with >low density (do not try this with Mike Antal's high yield charcoal), low >heat conductivity and low specific heat. It seems also that it is possible >to optimize the speed of the walking, if the coolig by the blood is modelled. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerod Smeenk Phone: (515) 294-6402 Iowa State University Fax: (515) 294-3261 1043 Black Engineering E-mail: jsmeenk@iastate.edu Ames, IA 50011 The Gasification List is sponsored by USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/ and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com Other Sponsors, Archives and Information http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/ http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml From kchishol at fox.nstn.ca Mon Oct 9 15:07:03 2000 From: kchishol at fox.nstn.ca (Kevin Chisholm) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:44 2004 Subject: GAS-L: Re: firewalking question In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20001009184337.00b08780@vttmail.vtt.fi> Message-ID: <39E216B8.42A54210@fox.nstn.ca> Dear Jaako Thanks indeed for your thorough analysis of the problem. One factor overlooked is that, as I understand it, part of the "Firewalking Ceremony" involves the ritual of sprinkling herbs onto the glowing coals. Apparently, the herbs are wet, and they use lots of them. This has the effect of quenching the surface of the coals, and makes it even safer to walk the coals, with even lesser danger of burns. Kindest regards, Kevin Chisholm Jaakko Saastamoinen wrote: > > Dear Dr Richard Wiseman. > > it is possible to demystify this problem how it is possible to walk by bare > feet on a charcoal bed by solving a heat conduction problem. > > 1) One approximates charcoal and the foot as two semi-infinite solids, > because the penetration depth of temperature profile is thin due to short > contact time during walking. > 2) The physical problem is described by two coupled Fourier equations for > heat conduction in the char and in the foot. > 3) The boundary conditions at the contact interface are continuous > temperature and heat flux. It is possible to solve the temperature in the > foot as function of time. > > The solution for the temperature inside the foot during first step during > contact is > > T = T0 + DELTA T*erfc[x/(at)^0.5]/(1+gamma) > > where x is distance from the contact plane, > t is time > a is thermal diffusivity of foot > T0 is initial temperature (T0 = 37 C during first step) > DELTA T = (Tcharbed - Tfoot) = 650 - 20 = 630 C (during first step) > erfc is complementary error function > > The important dimensionless parameter here is gamma defined as > > gamma = {[(heat conductivity of foot)*(density of foot)*(specific heat of > foot)/[(heat conductivity of charcoal)*(density of char coal)*(specific > heat of char coal)]}^0.5 > > When x = 0 at the contact plane, it is seen that the temperature at the > interface will be constant (does not depend on time) during first step > > T(x=0) = T0 + DELTA T/(1+gamma) > > We get approximately (somebody may have more accurate values for the > properties of foot and charcoal) > > gamma={[0.7*1000*3000]/(0.1*100*1000)]}^0.5 = 14.49 > > Then we get for the first step T(x=0) = 20+630/(1+14.49) = 60.7 C. > > The contact temperature will gradually grow, when taking more steps, since > more heat will be transferred accumulated to the feet and the initial > temperature of the foot skin will be higher (than 37 C). However, in this > analysis, no cooling effect of blood in the foot was accounted for. Thus, > the contact temperature will be lower in practice. The foot will also be > cooled during the time when it is lifted (by blood circulation). > > How to make the firewalking not too hot? One has to choose charcoal with > low density (do not try this with Mike Antal's high yield charcoal), low > heat conductivity and low specific heat. It seems also that it is possible > to optimize the speed of the walking, if the coolig by the blood is modelled. > > Best regards > > Jaakko Saastamoinen > > At 09:54 9.10.2000 EDT, you wrote: > >Dear Richard: > > > >I applaud your effort to de-mystify fire walking - and any other illusions. > >They are based on people's intuitive expectations and intuition isn't > correct > >all of the time. When they are wrong, mystics can prey on them (and > >themselves) i good conscience. Let me propose an explanation and simple > test > >to demonstrate it. > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > >Our fingers are good meters of thermal conductivity. Touch hot wood and it > >feels warm. Touch hot metal and you get burned. Why? > > > >Wood is a poor conductor of heat. You can sit your fanny on a wooden bench > >in a sauna at the boiling point of water and not get burned, since your > fanny > >removes heat from the interface faster than the wood can deliver it. So the > >wood is cooled at the interface more than the skin heats. > > > >Aluminum is a good conductor of heat. DON'T sit on an aluminum bench at > 100C > >or you'll be badly burned. The aluminum carries heat to the interface > faster > >than your fanny can remove it. > > > >Now for the fire walking: Charcoal is a very poor heat conductor. Your > skin > >is "water cooled" by the blood circulating just below the surface. So the > >incandescent charcoal interface is immediately cooled close to the > >temperature of your blood and presto, no burn. The heat is produced by > >combustion of the charcoal at the surface, so contact with your skin denies > >oxygen and it stops burning instantly and is quenched. (Do pictures show > >cold footprints at the instant the foot leaves? Can you tell me if this > >experiment ever leaves any marks at all? ) > > ~~~~~~~~~ > >Here's a simple test. I have a Taylor oven thermometer from the hardware > >store that has a 1/8 inch diameter sensor, sharpened at the end that you > >insert into meat, bread etc. Insert it into a damp sponge (to simulate your > >moist flesh) and press up against the hot charcoal. I doubt if you will see > >an increase of more than 10 C. > > > >Now drill a hole almost to the surface of a piece of cold charcoal (poor > >conductor) and press it against the hot charcoal. Should heat to 300-400 > C. > >(Don't burn out the sensor.) > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > >You don't need to understand the following in detail to understand the > >effect, but this is the scientific explanation: > > > >Chemical engineers use a "dimensionless number" called the Biot number. It > >compares the heat transfer rate TO a surface to the rate at which heat is > >removed FROM the surface. > > > > Nbiot = (Heat in)/(heat out) = h r/k > > > >where h is the heat transferred TO the surface (watts/m2-degree), r is the > >radius or size of the particle and k is the thermal conductivity of the > >surface (watts/m2-(degree/meter)). > > > >When Nbiot << 1, the object being heated will be almost a constant > >temperature and slowly come to the temperature of the source. (Flame > heating > >a piece of copper, high thermal conductivity, k = 4 W/cm-C). > > > >When Nbiot >>1, the interface temperature will be the same as the heat > source > >while the > >inside is still cold. (Flame heating a piece of charcoal, very low thermal > >conductivity, k = .016 W/cm-C, 250 times smaller than copper.) > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > >I hope you can try this and report (or I'll make tests if you wan't to > pursue > >it). People have been puzzled and misled too long. > > > >Yours truly, TOM REED THE BIOMASS ENERGY FOUNDATION > > > > > >In a message dated 9/21/00 9:07:03 AM Mountain Daylight Time, > >psyqrw@herts.ac.uk writes: > > > ><< > > hi there > > sorry to write to you out of the blue. I have recently seen your name on > > the web and read your contributions to a debate on conductivity and > > firewalking. > > > > I am a psychologist in britain and I recently organised a very long > > firewalk for the BBC. We burnt about 60 tons of wood and made a bed about > > 50ft long. The surface temp was about 650C, and I know that skin burns at > > about 55C. Is there anyway of predicting how many steps our walkers should > > have been able to walk across the bed before getting burnt - i.e., some > > sort of formula from the thermal conductivity of charcoal and skin? > > It would be great to have such a prediction as many or our walkers believed > > that some paranormal force was protecting them and I would like to > > demonstrate that it was just science at work. > > Feel free to circulate this to anyone/any list that you think might be able > > to help. > > Hope you can help and look forward to hearing from you. > > Best > > Richard > > > > Dr Richard Wiseman > > Psychology Department > > University of Hertfordshire > > http://phoenix.herts.ac.uk/PWRU/RWhomepage.html > > Direct tel: 01707 284628 > > Direct fax: 01707 285073 > > Mobile: 0779 0905219 > > >> > >The Gasification List is sponsored by > >USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/ > >and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com > > > >Other Sponsors, Archives and Information > >http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm > >http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive > >http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml > >http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/ > >http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml > > > > > __________________________________________ > Jaakko Saastamoinen > VTT Energy > Box 1603, 40101 Jyvaskyla > Finland > phone +358 14 672 547, fax +358 14 672 596 > __________________________________________ > The Gasification List is sponsored by > USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/ > and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com > > Other Sponsors, Archives and Information > http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm > http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive > http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml > http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/ > http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml The Gasification List is sponsored by USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/ and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com Other Sponsors, Archives and Information http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/ http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml From LINVENT at aol.com Mon Oct 9 17:10:17 2000 From: LINVENT at aol.com (LINVENT@aol.com) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:44 2004 Subject: GAS-L: Re: firewalking question Message-ID: To those spirited feet who try to walk on hot coals: Lots of explainations including the accumulation of ashes on the coals also act as insulators to reduce the thermal conductivity. It must also be taken into consideration that the evaporation from the sweaty surface of the feet between movements would remove lots of heat. Coating of the feet with the ash would also act as an insulator. I am sure that the use of a supercomputer may very well address the issues, however, a better manner is to put thin film thermocouples on the bottom of very drunk physics majors' feet at a fraternity party and measure the actual numbers as he or she progresses across the coals? Happy computing and fire stomping. Tom Taylor The Gasification List is sponsored by USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/ and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com Other Sponsors, Archives and Information http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/ http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml From VHarris001 at aol.com Mon Oct 9 23:10:19 2000 From: VHarris001 at aol.com (VHarris001@aol.com) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:44 2004 Subject: GAS-L: turbo chargers Message-ID: In a message dated 10/02/2000 6:10:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LINVENT@aol.com writes: > When a solid slinging blower throws materials, it generates some draft > with it. Depending upon the pressure drop of the gasification system, it may > > be able to drive it, however, I would not count on a very deep bed for this > purpose or fine materials. > Turbo blowers on vehicles can do the job very nicely. Thanks for the information on silage blowers. I have another few questions on turbochargers if you or any one else on the list can help. I would guess that the *volume* of air exiting from the blower side is considerably less than the volume of exhaust gas thruput on the turbine side. What is the typical ratio of air volume blown by the turbocharger to the volume of exhaust gas? Again I would guess that the exit air *pressure* on the blower side of the turbo would be considerably less than the exhaust gas pressure on the turbine side. What is the typical ratio of exit air pressure on the blower side to the exhaust gas pressure on the turbine side? Finally, an easier question (I think). Typically on an automotive (gasoline) engine, how many standard cubic feet of exhaust will be produced for every standard foot of intake air? Any help will be appreciated! Thanks, Vernon Harris The Gasification List is sponsored by USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/ and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com Other Sponsors, Archives and Information http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/ http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml From LINVENT at aol.com Tue Oct 10 06:31:58 2000 From: LINVENT at aol.com (LINVENT@aol.com) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:45 2004 Subject: GAS-L: turbo chargers Message-ID: <60.79cd2a1.27144914@aol.com> In a message dated 10/9/00 8:07:36 PM, VHarris001@aol.com writes: << In a message dated 10/02/2000 6:10:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LINVENT@aol.com writes: > When a solid slinging blower throws materials, it generates some draft > with it. Depending upon the pressure drop of the gasification system, it may > > be able to drive it, however, I would not count on a very deep bed for this > purpose or fine materials. > Turbo blowers on vehicles can do the job very nicely. Thanks for the information on silage blowers. I have another few questions on turbochargers if you or any one else on the list can help. I would guess that the *volume* of air exiting from the blower side is considerably less than the volume of exhaust gas thruput on the turbine side. What is the typical ratio of air volume blown by the turbocharger to the volume of exhaust gas?It can be calculated by taking the air inlet volume+fuel, or air fuel ratio X amount of fuel= output gas wt./density at output temperature. Because of the high temperature of the exhaust, there is a considerable volumetric expansion of the gas exiting the blower as opposed to pressure drop. Finding a car with a turbo on it and looking at the service manual can give you some idea. Chilton's on-line service manuals may be able to give you some information. Some of our local service managers for auto repair shops have been very helpful with information when we needed it. Again I would guess that the exit air *pressure* on the blower side of the turbo would be considerably less than the exhaust gas pressure on the turbine side. What is the typical ratio of exit air pressure on the blower side to the exhaust gas pressure on the turbine side?The exhaust pressure is very low or else the valving in the engine does not work well. The exhaust side typically works on high volume and low pressure. Boost air pressure will go up to 15 psig and double turbos can go up to 30 psi. Finally, an easier question (I think). Typically on an automotive (gasoline) engine, how many standard cubic feet of exhaust will be produced for every standard foot of intake air?I have seen that about 1+cf/hp is in the ballpark. Any help will be appreciated! Thanks, Vernon Harris The Gasification List is sponsored by USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/ and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com Other Sponsors, Archives and Information http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/ http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-zc04.mx.aol.com (rly-zc04.mail.aol.com [172.31.33.4]) by air-zc03.mail.aol.com (v76_r1.8) with ESMTP; Mon, 09 Oct 2000 23:07:36 -0400 Received: from crest.solarhost.com ([63.87.233.1]) by rly-zc04.mx.aol.com (v75_b3.9) with ESMTP; Mon, 09 Oct 2000 23:07:23 -0400 Received: from localhost (mail@localhost) by crest.solarhost.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA07658; Mon, 9 Oct 2000 23:10:32 -0400 Received: by crest.solarhost.com (bulk_mailer v1.9); Mon, 9 Oct 2000 23:10:21 -0400 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by crest.solarhost.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA07635 for gasification-outgoing; Mon, 9 Oct 2000 23:10:19 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: crest.solarhost.com: majordomo set sender to owner-gasification@crest.org using -f Received: from imo-r04.mail.aol.com (imo-r04.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.4]) by crest.solarhost.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA07632 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2000 23:10:19 -0400 From: VHarris001@aol.com Received: from VHarris001@aol.com by imo-r04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v28.26.) id 6.b0.b5d2fc3 (3980) for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2000 23:06:00 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 23:06:00 EDT Subject: Re: GAS-L: turbo chargers To: gasification@crest.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 36 Sender: owner-gasification@crest.org Reply-To: gasification@crest.org Precedence: bulk >> The Gasification List is sponsored by USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/ and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com Other Sponsors, Archives and Information http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/ http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml From Reedtb2 at cs.com Tue Oct 10 12:32:32 2000 From: Reedtb2 at cs.com (Reedtb2@cs.com) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:45 2004 Subject: GAS-L: CO from Wood Gasifiers Stoves Message-ID: Dear All: We agree with Alex English's assessment of the possibility of CO poisoning in the Turbo Stove. Very low when burning the volatiles because they are so smoky; low in burning charcoal because there is so little available. Thanks for the experiment Alex. HOWEVER: We intend to insist that any installation of the Turbo Stove should have a simple hood leading outside over the cooking area. Food odors, and particularly smoking grease isn't the best thing to breathe either. The heat of cooking will carry the odors (and possible CO) outside without needing a fan. Onward... TOM REED CPC/BEF In a message dated 9/16/00 10:37:36 PM Mountain Daylight Time, english@adan.kingston.net writes: << Dear Mike, Tom Reed is indeed promoting wood gas stoves for general public use. Aside from the fact that cooking stoves are usually well monitored compared to heating stoves, his design has a few features which make accidental poisoning from Carbon monoxide less likely than some arrangements. The fuel is lit on top and fuel carbonization proceeds from the top down producing a tar rich "smoky" gas which supports a stable flame. With a loss of flame, which could occur at very low firing rates or if the fan quit, the smoke would quickly alert the user to take corrective action. The risky time is after the fuel has been carbonized and is gasifying from the bottom up. Loss of flame will only occur at this stage if the fan goes off. At this point there is likely less than 100 grams of charcoal available to produce CO. I decided to take a stove at this stage, with the fan off, and the hot charcoal from wood pellets still glowing, and place it into a completely shut, but not sealed, van. The CO level in the van, 4 cubic metres of space, rose to a peak of 140 ppmv in twenty minutes and slowly dropped to 40ppmv after about two hours. By which time the charcoal was cool enough to touch. Larger, self insulating, piles of charcoal pellets can smoulder for days. It seems unlikely that anyone would use this stove in such a confined space. It also seems unlikely that a ventilated kitchen would build up lethal levels of CO from this stove when used with non charcoal fuel. One way to reduce this possibility further would be to place the lower air supply such that there remains some small quantity of pyrolysing fuel in the bottom until most of the charcoal has been consumed, thus producing the smoke warning when the fan quits and the flame goes out. It should be a simple matter to do a field study of this problem, and it should be done. Regards, Alex English Mike Norris wrote; I have a general question about gasification for a household appliance such as a cookstove. I appreciate that gasification will produce a clean smokeless flame that will have much lower toxic emissions than a traditional wood fire. However, I am quite concerned about CO poisoning in the event of a flame-out or after the burner is shutdown. The evolved gases are 10%+ CO and extremely toxic. Extensive precautions would be taken in a laboratory if personnel were working with such a toxic gas. I've read that some 13 people died in the first 2 years of W.W.II in Sweden from using wood gasifiers and a couple of researchers died in the eighties. What can be done to build a real product that would gasify biomasswithout exposing consumers to CO poisoning? One has to consider malfunctions of the hardware and foolish use by the consumer. Is it reasonable to advocate gasification for general public use or should it's use be limited to industrialized settings with trained operators? respectfully Mike Norris >> The Gasification List is sponsored by USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/ and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com Other Sponsors, Archives and Information http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/ http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml From Reedtb2 at cs.com Wed Oct 11 06:23:22 2000 From: Reedtb2 at cs.com (Reedtb2@cs.com) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:45 2004 Subject: GAS-L: Re: firewalking question Message-ID: Dear Jerold et al: Low emissivity for charcoal??? I have always believed it was well over 0.9 - practically the definition of a black body emitter. TOM REED In a message dated 10/9/00 10:04:34 AM Mountain Daylight Time, jsmeenk@iastate.edu writes: << I am guessing low emissivity (minimal radiation effects) would be another beneficial characteristic of the charcoal!?! Jerod >> The Gasification List is sponsored by USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/ and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com Other Sponsors, Archives and Information http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/ http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml From Hamed.Elmashad at User.AenF.WAU.NL Fri Oct 13 22:24:17 2000 From: Hamed.Elmashad at User.AenF.WAU.NL (Hamed.Elmashad@User.AenF.WAU.NL) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:45 2004 Subject: GAS-L: publications Message-ID: <200010140224.WAA31426@crest.solarhost.com> To: gasification@crest.org Errors-to: Hamed.Elmashad@User.AenF.WAU.NL Reply-to: Hamed.Elmashad@User.AenF.WAU.NL Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-Incognito-Version: 5.0.1.93 Dear prof It is nice to send you my message . I am a phD student at Wageningen university , The Netherlands . If it is possible , please send me any available copies of the references which concerned with the gasification of rice straw because they will be very useful to my study. Thank you very much ------------------------------------------------------------------ Hamed Elmashad Dept., of Agricultural,Environmental& system technology Section Agricultural Engineering and Physics Wageningen Agricultural University Bomenweg 4 ,6703 HD wageningen The Netherlands. The Gasification List is sponsored by USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/ and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com Other Sponsors, Archives and Information http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/ http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml From boccaccio at sprint.ca Fri Oct 13 22:31:40 2000 From: boccaccio at sprint.ca (Alain Boccaccio) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:45 2004 Subject: GAS-L: Gasification review Message-ID: <200010140231.WAA31684@crest.solarhost.com> Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 11:21:58 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0038_01C03507.CD51B0A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 Disposition-Notification-To: "Alain Boccaccio" X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0038_01C03507.CD51B0A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am looking for Tom Reed's latest gasification review. Please let me = how to purchase it. Thank you in advance, Lauren Boccaccio ------=_NextPart_000_0038_01C03507.CD51B0A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am looking for Tom Reed's latest = gasification=20 review. Please let me how to purchase it. Thank you in advance, Lauren = Boccaccio ------=_NextPart_000_0038_01C03507.CD51B0A0-- The Gasification List is sponsored by USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/ and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com Other Sponsors, Archives and Information http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/ http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml From heherson_a at yahoo.com Sun Oct 15 01:44:09 2000 From: heherson_a at yahoo.com (Heherson Alarde) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:45 2004 Subject: GAS-L: Pyrolisis of Municipal Waste Message-ID: <200010150544.BAA07355@crest.solarhost.com> To: gasification@crest.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-608413784-971572287=:20498" --0-608413784-971572287=:20498 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Dear Mr. Reed, I'm a senior Mechanical Engineering student at the University of Santo Tomas in Manila, The Philippines. One of the problems facing my country today is about municipal waste disposal. Since there are environment related problems about waste incineration, most waste disposal companies are turning over to Pyrolisis. I am currently doing a feasibility study on the Pyrolisis of Municipal Waste. I am also planning to make a prototype of a typical Pyrolisis Machine. In view of this, I would like to ask for your help to provide me information about my research. Also, I would greatly appreciate it if you could provide for me a list of the websites which I can visit, books/papers that can be availed of/purchased, or any other valuable information related to my research. I am also particularly interested in the Energy Equation System used in Pyrolisis. Thank you very much. Sincerely yours, Heherson R. Alarde --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. --0-608413784-971572287=:20498 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

Dear Mr. Reed,

I'm a senior Mechanical Engineering student at the University of Santo Tomas in Manila, The Philippines.  One of the problems facing my country today is about municipal waste disposal.  Since there are environment related problems about waste incineration, most waste disposal companies are turning over to Pyrolisis.  I am currently doing a feasibility study on the Pyrolisis of Municipal Waste.  I am also planning to make a prototype of a typical Pyrolisis Machine.

In view of this, I would like to ask for your help to provide me information about my research.  Also, I would greatly appreciate it if you could provide for me a list of the websites which I can visit, books/papers that can be availed of/purchased, or any other valuable information related to my research.  I am also particularly interested in the Energy Equation System used in Pyrolisis.

Thank you very much.

Sincerely yours,

Heherson R. Alarde


Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. --0-608413784-971572287=:20498-- The Gasification List is sponsored by USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/ and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com Other Sponsors, Archives and Information http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/ http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml From keith at journeytoforever.org Sun Oct 15 02:08:53 2000 From: keith at journeytoforever.org (Keith Addison) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:45 2004 Subject: GAS-L: More Re: burning arsenic - solution found? Message-ID: They do it by adding limestone, which locks up the arsenic. D'you think that would work in a woodstove? Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Tokyo http://journeytoforever.org/ Researchers solve toxic wood-waste problem http://enn.com/news/enn-stories/2000/10/10092000/treatedwood_32228.asp Monday, October 9, 2000 By Aaron Hoover A technique developed by a University of Florida research team may help in the disposal of treated wood and reduce toxic pollution in the process. A University of Florida research team has developed a technique to reduce toxic pollution from incinerating pesticide-treated wood, an advancement that comes amid growing national debate over how to safely dispose of this waste. The technique not only reduces toxins in air pollution generated by incinerating discarded treated wood, it also makes the toxins less likely to leach out of the ash and into groundwater when it is placed in a landfill, said C.Y. Wu, assistant professor of environmental engineering at the university. "Our technique solves two problems: It reduces emissions and leaching," said Wu, the lead investigator on the team, which will present its findings later this month at the American Chemical Society's annual meeting in Washington, D.C. Wood treated with chromated copper arsenate, commonly known as CCA, contains arsenic and chromium, which are known carcinogens. Used in everything from decks to porches to playground equipment, it has come under increasing scrutiny in recent years as scientists have raised concerns about release of arsenic into the environment. One focus of the concern is disposal of the wood, which is often mixed with nontreated wood and incinerated. Concerns are particularly high in Florida, which has electricity-generating wood incinerators and is estimated to incinerate at least 70 percent of its treated-wood waste, Wu said. The amount of discarded treated wood in Florida, meanwhile, is expected to grow from 5 million cubic feet per year today to 35 million cubic feet in 2015, according to research by UF and University of Miami scientists. Wood treated with chromated copper arsenate is used in everything from decks to porches to playground equipment. Wu said the team's research shows that when CCA-treated wood is burned, much of the arsenic may escape into the air. That's because the pollution control devices in the incinerators' smokestacks capture only relatively large particles. In the heat of the incinerator, however, the arsenic vaporizes and forms extremely tiny particles - less than 1 micron in diameter, or more than 100 times smaller than the diameter of a human hair. These tiny particles cannot be perfectly captured in traditional pollution control devices. The UF technique introduces limestone into the burning process, which reacts with the arsenic to form larger particles, in the range of 50 microns. Instead of escaping through the smokestack, those particles wind up in the waste ash. That may appear to merely transfer the problem from one place to another, but Wu said tests reveal that the arsenic-limestone particles also are much less likely to leach arsenic into the groundwater than the tiny arsenic particles. So far, the incinerator technique has only been tested in laboratories, Wu said. But he noted that power plants already use a similar technique involving injecting limestone into air pollution devices to reduce sulfur dioxide emissions, which suggests adopting the process for wood incinerators is a distinct possibility. John Schert, Center for Solid and Hazardous Waste Management at UF's College of Engineering, said the study shows considerable promise to address a major environmental problem. "If somebody can figure out how to burn CCA-treated wood and not let the arsenic escape into the atmosphere, that's the Holy Grail for disposing of CCA wood, The other team members are Timothy Townsend, an assistant professor of environmental engineering; and Kenjiro Iida, John Pierman and Thabet Tolaymat, all students in the department of environmental engineering. The research was funded by UF's University Scholars Program. Copyright 2000, Environmental News Network All Rights Reserved The Florida Center for Solid and Hazardous Waste Management is a national leader in treated wood research http://www.floridacenter.org/ A research team from the University of Florida has developed a technique to reduce toxic pollution from burning pesticide-treated wood http://www.ufl.edu/ Learn more about CCA treated wood from the Florida Center for Solid and Hazardous Waste Management http://www.ccaresearch.org/ For more information on alternatives to burning wood visit the British Columbia Ministry of Environment, Lands and Parks http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/epd/epdpa/ar/particulates/wra.html The Gasification List is sponsored by USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/ and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com Other Sponsors, Archives and Information http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/ http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml From Reedtb2 at cs.com Sun Oct 15 09:06:42 2000 From: Reedtb2 at cs.com (Reedtb2@cs.com) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:45 2004 Subject: GAS-L: Re: pits and stones from fruit Message-ID: <3b.b2f6405.271b05f3@cs.com> Dear Mathijs Kämink et al: A decade ago I consulted on a gasifier project involving hundred of tons of cherry pits in Michigan. GREAT FUEL. Our new Turbo Stove will burn chips and twigs and many other things, but the time of gasification is proportional to the density of the fuel. High density fuels such as wood pellets, fruit pits nut shells etc. do particularly well and are widely available. Gasifiers also appreciate having a dense fuel and our gasifier burns coconut shells very well. There is not much competition for these special fuels since they often don't fit large combustion devices. Yours truly, TOM REED In a message dated 10/13/00 1:52:12 AM Mountain Daylight Time, kamink@nbsd.nl writes: << Dear colleagues, Who knows something about stones/pits from fruits like cherries, peach/nectarines and grapes? Is there a real "de-pitting" process, so is there a real source of pits and stones available? And are these pits/stones a good source for energy production? Who has access to caracteristics (caloric value, ash etc) of pits and stones of the fruits mentioned above or perhaps other fruits I did not mention but are also interesting? ing Mathijs Kämink Analyst >> The Gasification List is sponsored by USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/ and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com Other Sponsors, Archives and Information http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/ http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml From VHarris001 at aol.com Sun Oct 15 17:50:54 2000 From: VHarris001 at aol.com (VHarris001@aol.com) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:45 2004 Subject: GAS-L: Pyrolisis of Municipal Waste Message-ID: In a message dated 10/15/2000 1:46:42 AM Eastern Daylight Time, heherson_a@yahoo.com writes: > Also, I would greatly appreciate it if you could provide for me a list of the > websites which I can visit, books/papers that can be availed of/purchased, or > any other valuable information related to my research. I am also > particularly interested in the Energy Equation System used in Pyrolisis. > > Thank you very much. > > Sincerely yours, > > Heherson R. Alarde Dear Heherson, Perhaps Tom Reed has more information about MSW pyrolysis. I'd also be interested in text or papers relating to that subject. The best book I've personally seen regarding MSW as a fuel is the "Incineration Systems Handbook" by Calvin R. Brunner, ISBN 0-9621774-0-7, Copyright 1996 by Incinerator Consultants Inc. It has a section on pyrolysis but otherwise is almost exclusively devoted to single stage combustion. If you find other good sources or references, please post them here. Good luck, Vernon Harris The Gasification List is sponsored by USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/ and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com Other Sponsors, Archives and Information http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/ http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml From heherson_a at yahoo.com Sun Oct 15 20:21:18 2000 From: heherson_a at yahoo.com (Heherson Alarde) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:45 2004 Subject: GAS-L: Pyrolisis of Municipal Waste Message-ID: <200010160021.UAA07254@crest.solarhost.com> To: gasification@crest.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-608413784-971572287=:20498" --0-608413784-971572287=:20498 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Dear Mr. Reed, I'm a senior Mechanical Engineering student at the University of Santo Tomas in Manila, The Philippines. One of the problems facing my country today is about municipal waste disposal. Since there are environment related problems about waste incineration, most waste disposal companies are turning over to Pyrolisis. I am currently doing a feasibility study on the Pyrolisis of Municipal Waste. I am also planning to make a prototype of a typical Pyrolisis Machine. In view of this, I would like to ask for your help to provide me information about my research. Also, I would greatly appreciate it if you could provide for me a list of the websites which I can visit, books/papers that can be availed of/purchased, or any other valuable information related to my research. I am also particularly interested in the Energy Equation System used in Pyrolisis. Thank you very much. Sincerely yours, Heherson R. Alarde --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. --0-608413784-971572287=:20498 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

Dear Mr. Reed,

I'm a senior Mechanical Engineering student at the University of Santo Tomas in Manila, The Philippines.  One of the problems facing my country today is about municipal waste disposal.  Since there are environment related problems about waste incineration, most waste disposal companies are turning over to Pyrolisis.  I am currently doing a feasibility study on the Pyrolisis of Municipal Waste.  I am also planning to make a prototype of a typical Pyrolisis Machine.

In view of this, I would like to ask for your help to provide me information about my research.  Also, I would greatly appreciate it if you could provide for me a list of the websites which I can visit, books/papers that can be availed of/purchased, or any other valuable information related to my research.  I am also particularly interested in the Energy Equation System used in Pyrolisis.

Thank you very much.

Sincerely yours,

Heherson R. Alarde


Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. --0-608413784-971572287=:20498-- The Gasification List is sponsored by USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/ and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com Other Sponsors, Archives and Information http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/ http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml From tmiles at teleport.com Sun Oct 15 20:26:20 2000 From: tmiles at teleport.com (Tom Miles) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:45 2004 Subject: GAS-L: Re: firewalking question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20001015172955.04ea3ad0@mail.teleport.com> Firewalkers, The the stoves discussion list participants frequently run out and try whatever they are discussing on the list. How many experts on firewalking have personally tested their theories? If you do send us a digital photo. But don't send us your medical bills. Tom The Gasification List is sponsored by USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/ and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com Other Sponsors, Archives and Information http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/ http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml From Reedtb2 at cs.com Wed Oct 18 22:11:29 2000 From: Reedtb2 at cs.com (Reedtb2@cs.com) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:45 2004 Subject: GAS-L: Re: [bamboo-plantations] bamboo charcoal Message-ID: <62.8291a73.271fb243@cs.com> Dear Thomas Stubbing: Congratulations on your combination stove and charcoal maker. I presume it is an inverted downdraft and you turn it off when it finishes burning the volatile component of the fuel. Keep us posted on yields and how it works. It would be invaluable (and valuable) in many parts of the world. Yours, TOM REED BEF In a message dated 10/17/00 4:25:22 AM Mountain Daylight Time, heat-win@cwcom.net writes: << Dear All, For your information, here in the UK we first built a small, 0.23 m3 capacity, indirectly heated wood dryer/torrefier/charcoal maker with which we rapidly produced indirectly cooled charcoal, mainly from wood but also from a bamboo sample brought over from Nicaragua. We now have a 1.8 m3 (around 1 tonne moist wood capacity), mobile, wood stove heated and 12 volt battery powered unit in the stove of which we are cleanly combusting the 'smoke', i.e. the pyrolysis gases when charcoal is made. We are now embarking on further development of this concept internationally, including the design of large scale, multi-chamber units in which some of the pyrolysis gases' combustion energy will be utilised to dry the wood or bamboo before it is converted to charcoal and the remainder of their energy used to dry additional wood or other materials. If I can help with the Ethiopian or any other charcoal making project please let me know. Regards, Thomas J Stubbing >> The Gasification List is sponsored by USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/ and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com Other Sponsors, Archives and Information http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/ http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml From dlevin at uvic.ca Thu Oct 19 22:11:44 2000 From: dlevin at uvic.ca (David Bernard Levin) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:45 2004 Subject: GAS-L: gasification Message-ID: <200010200211.WAA18998@crest.solarhost.com> Hello, I found your e-mail address on the Internet. I am interested in finding a commercial supplier of a small, bench top gasifier. I am developing a research project in collaboration with researchers at the National Renewable Energy Lab in Colorado, working on a bacterium that can convert carbon monoxide and water to hydrogen. The idea is to gasify solid waste and use the CO produced to feed the bacteria, which can use the CO as a sole carbon source for growth, and produce H2 as a by-product. The H2 would be used to generate electricity using a PEM fuel cell. A couple of the research questions that need to addressed are 1) the quality and quantity of gas (specifically CO) produced from different types of solid waste, and 2) how much energy does it take to generate the gas verse how much energy we get out (in terms of electricity produced from PEM fueld cells that use the H2 generated). So, I would really be greatful if you (or someone out there) could tell me if a small, bench top gasifier is available commercially and who sells it. I thank you for your consideration in this matter. Sincerely, David B. Levin, Ph.D. Associate Professor The Gasification List is sponsored by USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/ and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com Other Sponsors, Archives and Information http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/ http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml From jsmeenk at iastate.edu Fri Oct 20 11:46:22 2000 From: jsmeenk at iastate.edu (Jerod Smeenk) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:45 2004 Subject: GAS-L: Commercial systems for wood pellets? Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20001020103247.00ac8810@jsmeenk.mail.iastate.edu> I am looking for commercial suppliers of combustor and/or gasifier systems for wood chips or wood pellets in the 1 million to 10 million Btu/hr range (300 kW-3000 kW). The end use of the energy is heat. Thanks in advance for the information. Jerod ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerod Smeenk Phone: (515) 294-6402 Iowa State University Fax: (515) 294-3261 1043 Black Engineering E-mail: jsmeenk@iastate.edu Ames, IA 50011 The Gasification List is sponsored by USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/ and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com Other Sponsors, Archives and Information http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/ http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml From woodlandinc at home.com Sat Oct 21 16:51:45 2000 From: woodlandinc at home.com (david babakaiff) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:45 2004 Subject: GAS-L: chx engineering and gasification Message-ID: <200010212051.QAA13636@crest.solarhost.com> Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 03:57:37 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 for information, please call (250) 765-4945. For sales call mr. Kawulka at (780) 436-6168 The Gasification List is sponsored by USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/ and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com Other Sponsors, Archives and Information http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/ http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml From mthansen at dk-TEKNIK.dk Tue Oct 24 00:39:57 2000 From: mthansen at dk-TEKNIK.dk (Morten Tony Hansen) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:45 2004 Subject: GAS-L: RE: Commercial systems for wood pellets? Message-ID: <200010240439.AAA14578@crest.solarhost.com> Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 15:41:42 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain Dear Jerod Smeenk, Multiple Danish manufacturers market combustion systems for wood fuels within the range you mention. In the June 2000 publication "Danish Bioenergy Solutions - reliable and efficient" you can find an index of these manufacturers including information about their specific branch. The publication provides an overwiev of the Danish bioenergy sector and has been prepared with financial support from the Danish Energy Agency. It can be downloaded as 7 pdf type files "publications" from our homepage: www.videncenter.dk Best regards Centre for Biomass Technology Morten Tony Hansen --------------------------------------------- M. Sc., Project manager dk-TEKNIK ENERGY & ENVIRONMENT Gladsaxe Moellevej 15 DK-2860 Soeborg Denmark Phone: +45 39 555 853 (direct) Fax: +45 39 696 002 E-mail: mthansen@dk-teknik.dk Web: www.dk-teknik.dk > -----Original Message----- > From: Jerod Smeenk > Sent: Friday, October 20, 2000 5:46 PM > To: gasification@crest.org; bioenergy@crest.org > Subject: Commercial systems for wood pellets? > > I am looking for commercial suppliers of combustor and/or gasifier systems > > for wood chips or wood pellets in the 1 million to 10 million Btu/hr range > > (300 kW-3000 kW). The end use of the energy is heat. Thanks in advance > for the information. > > Jerod > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------------------------- > Jerod Smeenk Phone: (515) 294-6402 > Iowa State University Fax: (515) 294-3261 > 1043 Black Engineering E-mail: jsmeenk@iastate.edu > Ames, IA 50011 > > > The Bioenergy List is sponsored by: > David M. Gubanc.P.E. http://www.gubanc.com > dk-TEKNIK ENERGY & ENVIRONMENT http://www.dk-teknik.com > Hazen Research, Inc. http://www.hazenusa.com > > Other Sponsors, Archives and Information: > http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm > http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/bioenergy-list-archive/ > http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/ > http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml The Gasification List is sponsored by USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/ and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com Other Sponsors, Archives and Information http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/ http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml From marshbro at mcbridebc.net Tue Oct 24 01:54:55 2000 From: marshbro at mcbridebc.net (Phil Marsh) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:45 2004 Subject: GAS-L: Corn gasification anyone? Message-ID: <000d01c03d7f$d9cb63a0$104fb5d0@marsh> Hello all:   I have just arrived with the questions of the day. Since the price of natural gas climbing fast people are looking for alternatives. I have some contacts that are into the greenhouse business in a very big way but they have lots of corn available.   Here they are then:         1    How many BTU's could one expect fom a kg of corn?         2    Would corn make a decent gasifier fuel?         3    How about the cobs if they were run through a hogger?         4    Has anyone tried to gasify corn before.?   If anyone has some ideas on this I would sure like to hear them.   Thanks in advance,   Phil Marsh. From VHarris001 at aol.com Tue Oct 24 03:12:23 2000 From: VHarris001 at aol.com (VHarris001@aol.com) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:45 2004 Subject: GAS-L: Corn gasification anyone? Message-ID: <40.26f4a54.27269019@aol.com> In a message dated 10/24/2000 1:55:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time, marshbro@mcbridebc.net writes: > Hello all: > > I have just arrived with the questions of the day. Since the price of > natural gas climbing fast people are looking for alternatives. I have some > contacts that are into the greenhouse business in a very big way but they > have lots of corn available. > > Here they are then: > 1 How many BTU's could one expect fom a kg of corn? > 2 Would corn make a decent gasifier fuel? > 3 How about the cobs if they were run through a hogger? > 4 Has anyone tried to gasify corn before.? > > If anyone has some ideas on this I would sure like to hear them. > > Thanks in advance, > > Phil Marsh. Hi Phil, I just read an article about corn stoves. Corn makes good stove fuel. For a start, you should do a search for "corn stove" at: www.google.com Now that yellow food corn has been recalled after being commingled with genetically modified yellow feed corn, corn for fuel should be even cheaper and more plentiful for a while. Kellogg's shut down some production. I wonder how good a fuel corn flakes makes Gosh, with all the controversy surrounding genetically modified plants, it's hard to imagine that grain elevator operators would risk commingling. It's this kind of lax controls that set the nuclear industry back 50 years. If the genetics folks don't wise up, ethanol WILL be the biggest crop produced in the nations bread basket, and corn gasification research grants will abound. I'm sure others here have plenty of info on corn as fuel. Perhaps Tom Reed will share information regarding corn fuel in his Turbo Stove. Best wishes, Vernon Harris The Gasification List is sponsored by USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/ and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com Other Sponsors, Archives and Information http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/ http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml From tk at tke.dk Tue Oct 24 03:31:24 2000 From: tk at tke.dk (Thomas Koch) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:45 2004 Subject: Sv: GAS-L: Corn gasification anyone? Message-ID: <001501c03d8d$20aa7920$048744c0@image.image.dk> Dear Phil   1. About 16000 KJ (dont know how many BTU) 2. Ther are reasons to believe that corn can be gasifiyed, at least wheat and barley can. 3. Not all that easy 4. I know about gasification of the cobs and grain from wheat and Barley.   Thomas
-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----Fra: Phil Marsh <marshbro@mcbridebc.net>Til: Gasification <gasification@crest.org>Dato: 24. oktober 2000 07:54Emne: GAS-L: Corn gasification anyone? Hello all:   I have just arrived with the questions of the day. Since the price of natural gas climbing fast people are looking for alternatives. I have some contacts that are into the greenhouse business in a very big way but they have lots of corn available.   Here they are then:         1    How many BTU's could one expect fom a kg of corn?         2    Would corn make a decent gasifier fuel?         3    How about the cobs if they were run through a hogger?         4    Has anyone tried to gasify corn before.?   If anyone has some ideas on this I would sure like to hear them.   Thanks in advance,   Phil Marsh. From jgordes at earthlink.net Tue Oct 24 07:00:30 2000 From: jgordes at earthlink.net (jgordes) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:45 2004 Subject: GAS-L: Corn gasification anyone? In-Reply-To: <000d01c03d7f$d9cb63a0$104fb5d0@marsh> Message-ID: <4.2.2.20001024065722.00aa6cf0@127.0.0.1> At 11:01 PM 10/23/2000 -0700, you wrote: >Hello all: I think that one of the basic question you have not asked on this is "Waht is the net energy balance" of gasifying corn? By this I mean that corn is a very energy intensive crop to grow and there is a great amount of energy input in every step of the way from field prep, fertilizers, harvesting etc and using it as a fuel may not be the highest and best use and could, if used widely, compete for its use as a food. As one wag once said regarding its use for ethanol, "No use in having a lot of happy farmers and hungry drivers." In other words, there is no free lunch.. Best, Joel N. Gordes >I have just arrived with the questions of the day. Since the price of >natural gas climbing fast people are looking for alternatives. I have some >contacts that are into the greenhouse business in a very big way but they >have lots of corn available. > >Here they are then: > 1 How many BTU's could one expect fom a kg of corn? > 2 Would corn make a decent gasifier fuel? > 3 How about the cobs if they were run through a hogger? > 4 Has anyone tried to gasify corn before.? > >If anyone has some ideas on this I would sure like to hear them. > >Thanks in advance, > >Phil Marsh. Joel N. Gordes Environmental Energy Solutions P.O. Box 101 Riverton, CT 06065 (860) 379-2430 "Dedicated to executing ideas, not killing them!" Be sure to visit our web site at: http://home.earthlink.net/~jgordes The Gasification List is sponsored by USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/ and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com Other Sponsors, Archives and Information http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/ http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml From edeaver101 at rcn.com Tue Oct 24 09:44:32 2000 From: edeaver101 at rcn.com (Eric Deaver) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:45 2004 Subject: GAS-L: Corn gasification anyone? In-Reply-To: <000d01c03d7f$d9cb63a0$104fb5d0@marsh> Message-ID: <006101c03dc0$1945e4c0$4d69accf@default> I would really look at ethanol production from the corn itself.  Tried and true - feedstock costs (in this case) would be nil.  Maybe burn the cobs to help fire your still.  Seems like a waste to just gasify the corn itself though.   But I am just a lowly geologist.  The engineers on this list can voice a much more thoroughly informed opinion.   Eric From Reedtb2 at cs.com Tue Oct 24 10:11:43 2000 From: Reedtb2 at cs.com (Reedtb2@cs.com) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:45 2004 Subject: GAS-L: Corn gasification anyone? Arghhh Message-ID: <39.bbf4408.2726f259@cs.com> Dear Thomas Koch, Phil et al: This is shear madness. 1) Pellet stoves seem to burn WASTE corn quite well, so it is a good, easy feeding biomass. I found that it doesn't gasify too well in our Turbo stove... 2) The production of corn and most other things in our society is cheap because we are using up Mother (and Father?) Nature's birthright of cheap oil and natural gas . So, growing corn with oil and gas-fertilizer is madness. We need to learn to make fertilizer and fuel from the wastes associated with agriculture and forestry. Then we'll be sustainable.... [Most biomass has a DRY, ASH FREE energy content of 22 MJ/kg. People love to re-measure biomass and rediscover this.] Yours truly, TOM REED BEF In a message dated 10/24/00 1:34:45 AM Mountain Daylight Time, tk@tke.dk writes: << Dear Phil 1. About 16000 KJ (dont know how many BTU) 2. Ther are reasons to believe that corn can be gasifiyed, at least wheat and barley can. 3. Not all that easy 4. I know about gasification of the cobs and grain from wheat and Barley. Th >> The Gasification List is sponsored by USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/ and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com Other Sponsors, Archives and Information http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/ http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml From tk at tke.dk Tue Oct 24 10:27:37 2000 From: tk at tke.dk (Thomas Koch) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:45 2004 Subject: Sv: GAS-L: Corn gasification anyone? Arghhh Message-ID: <000701c03dc7$4260cbc0$048744c0@image.image.dk> Dear Tom I cannot disargee with you, but in northern europe wheat produces om of the highest yields even without fertiliser. And barley and wheat is one of the cheapest easy handlable biomasse you can get. And the wastes associated with agriculture and forestry can cause a lot of tricky mechanical problems. What type of biomass should we push foreward? Best Regards Thomas Koch -----Oprindelig meddelelse----- Fra: Reedtb2@cs.com Til: gasification@crest.org ; stoves@crest.org Dato: 24. oktober 2000 16:11 Emne: GAS-L: Corn gasification anyone? Arghhh >Dear Thomas Koch, Phil et al: > >This is shear madness. > >1) Pellet stoves seem to burn WASTE corn quite well, so it is a good, easy >feeding biomass. I found that it doesn't gasify too well in our Turbo >stove... > >2) The production of corn and most other things in our society is cheap >because we are using up Mother (and Father?) Nature's birthright of cheap oil >and natural gas . So, growing corn with oil and gas-fertilizer is madness. >We need to learn to make fertilizer and fuel from the wastes associated with >agriculture and forestry. Then we'll be sustainable.... > >[Most biomass has a DRY, ASH FREE energy content of 22 MJ/kg. People love to >re-measure biomass and rediscover this.] > >Yours truly, TOM REED BEF > >In a message dated 10/24/00 1:34:45 AM Mountain Daylight Time, tk@tke.dk >writes: > ><< > Dear Phil > > 1. About 16000 KJ (dont know how many BTU) > 2. Ther are reasons to believe that corn can be gasifiyed, at least wheat >and barley can. > 3. Not all that easy > 4. I know about gasification of the cobs and grain from wheat and Barley. > > Th >> >The Gasification List is sponsored by >USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/ >and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com > >Other Sponsors, Archives and Information >http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm >http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive >http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml >http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/ >http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml > The Gasification List is sponsored by USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/ and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com Other Sponsors, Archives and Information http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/ http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml From jsmeenk at iastate.edu Tue Oct 24 11:12:51 2000 From: jsmeenk at iastate.edu (Jerod Smeenk) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:45 2004 Subject: GAS-L: Corn gasification anyone? In-Reply-To: <000d01c03d7f$d9cb63a0$104fb5d0@marsh> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20001024095439.00aaa8a0@jsmeenk.mail.iastate.edu> Iowa State University and Carbon Energy Technology, Inc. have experience gasifying waste seed corn. The information we have on corn heating values reveal a dry, ash free higher heating value of 7800 Btu/lb (18.1 MJ/kg). Shelled corn typically has an ash content of 1.5% (by weight) and a moisture content of 12-14%. Carbon Energy Technology is involved in a corn gasification project with a seed corn company and has logged over 1200 hours of gasification on a 12 ton/day fluid bed gasifier system. Crushed cobs, whole cobs, and husks have also been gasified in the same system but for only a few hours at a time. Whole cobs do not work in the 12 ton/day system as the char does not readily gasify or break down to elutriate from the bed. Crushed cobs and husks appear to gasify nicely but long term testing may prove differently. I would be curious to hear other's experiences using fluid bed or other types of gasifiers for shelled corn, cobs, and husks. Has anyone done long term testing of these fuels to determine their viability? Jerod At 11:01 PM 10/23/2000 -0700, you wrote: >Hello all: > >I have just arrived with the questions of the day. Since the price of >natural gas climbing fast people are looking for alternatives. I have some >contacts that are into the greenhouse business in a very big way but they >have lots of corn available. > >Here they are then: > 1 How many BTU's could one expect fom a kg of corn? > 2 Would corn make a decent gasifier fuel? > 3 How about the cobs if they were run through a hogger? > 4 Has anyone tried to gasify corn before.? > >If anyone has some ideas on this I would sure like to hear them. > >Thanks in advance, > >Phil Marsh. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerod Smeenk Phone: (515) 294-6402 Iowa State University Fax: (515) 294-3261 1043 Black Engineering E-mail: jsmeenk@iastate.edu Ames, IA 50011 The Gasification List is sponsored by USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/ and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com Other Sponsors, Archives and Information http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/ http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml From LINVENT at aol.com Tue Oct 24 11:25:14 2000 From: LINVENT at aol.com (LINVENT@aol.com) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:45 2004 Subject: GAS-L: Corn gasification anyone? Arghhh Message-ID: <12.3dfd7f0.2727038b@aol.com> Dear Tom Reed and others, Yes, corn or any edible feedstock gasification or any fuel supply is indeed insane. So is dumping milk in the streets which occurred just before the depression. However, anytime you use up a commodity in oversupply, you increase it's value. Ethanol production from corn increases it's value. Of course, the politicians are very sensitive to food prices and will do anything to keep food prices down until the next election including allowing the export of farm jobs and importation of cheap food. It is national policy to remove the United States from ag production as it is an uncontrollable voting block, usually conservative. The butcher makes more money on a cow than the farmer. Our once efficient distribution system has been corrupted by excessive marketing costs and will when coupled with the loss of farming industry, will ultimately result in the breakdown of the food supply in this country. Other than that, corn cobs, stalks, grains all make reasonably good fuels and can be gasified. Sincerely, Leland T.Taylor The Gasification List is sponsored by USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/ and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com Other Sponsors, Archives and Information http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/ http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml From woolsey at netins.net Tue Oct 24 11:33:33 2000 From: woolsey at netins.net (Edward Woolsey) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:45 2004 Subject: GAS-L: Corn gasification anyone? Arghhh In-Reply-To: <000701c03dc7$4260cbc0$048744c0@image.image.dk> Message-ID: Dear Tom I have some experience in the ethanol industry. One of the major battles we have fought and continue to fight has been with some members of what I'll call the "humanitarian" community. The battle has been called the "food verses fuel" debate. The argument goes .....any potential human food which is directed to the energy market will cause more people on this planet to starve. The corn to ethanol industry has countered this argument by showing that the worlds population is short on protein and not carbohydrates and the corn to ethanol process uses only the starch, actually making the remaining higher protein product easier to move into the human food chain. This argument has worked for the industry. That would not be the case if you burn your food product. (wheat rye etc.) We have had some people advocating burning #2 yellow corn for energy here in Iowa. The idea being to reduce the oversupply of corn, raising the price of the remaining corn, and providing a lower cost heat source. I have done my best to discourage this effort. (outside of out of condition seed corn, and other waste) I can think of no better way to motivate the anti-biomass activists. My two cents. Ed Woolsey -----Original Message----- From: owner-gasification@crest.org [mailto:owner-gasification@crest.org]On Behalf Of Thomas Koch Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2000 9:33 AM To: gasification@crest.org Subject: Sv: GAS-L: Corn gasification anyone? Arghhh Dear Tom I cannot disargee with you, but in northern europe wheat produces om of the highest yields even without fertiliser. And barley and wheat is one of the cheapest easy handlable biomasse you can get. And the wastes associated with agriculture and forestry can cause a lot of tricky mechanical problems. What type of biomass should we push foreward? Best Regards Thomas Koch -----Oprindelig meddelelse----- Fra: Reedtb2@cs.com Til: gasification@crest.org ; stoves@crest.org Dato: 24. oktober 2000 16:11 Emne: GAS-L: Corn gasification anyone? Arghhh >Dear Thomas Koch, Phil et al: > >This is shear madness. > >1) Pellet stoves seem to burn WASTE corn quite well, so it is a good, easy >feeding biomass. I found that it doesn't gasify too well in our Turbo >stove... > >2) The production of corn and most other things in our society is cheap >because we are using up Mother (and Father?) Nature's birthright of cheap oil >and natural gas . So, growing corn with oil and gas-fertilizer is madness. >We need to learn to make fertilizer and fuel from the wastes associated with >agriculture and forestry. Then we'll be sustainable.... > >[Most biomass has a DRY, ASH FREE energy content of 22 MJ/kg. People love to >re-measure biomass and rediscover this.] > >Yours truly, TOM REED BEF > >In a message dated 10/24/00 1:34:45 AM Mountain Daylight Time, tk@tke.dk >writes: > ><< > Dear Phil > > 1. About 16000 KJ (dont know how many BTU) > 2. Ther are reasons to believe that corn can be gasifiyed, at least wheat >and barley can. > 3. Not all that easy > 4. I know about gasification of the cobs and grain from wheat and Barley. > > Th >> >The Gasification List is sponsored by >USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/ >and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com > >Other Sponsors, Archives and Information >http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm >http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive >http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml >http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/ >http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml > The Gasification List is sponsored by USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/ and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com Other Sponsors, Archives and Information http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/ http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml The Gasification List is sponsored by USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/ and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com Other Sponsors, Archives and Information http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/ http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml From aganesh at me.iitb.ernet.in Wed Oct 25 03:40:44 2000 From: aganesh at me.iitb.ernet.in (Anuradda Ganesh) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:45 2004 Subject: GAS-L: Corn gasification anyone? In-Reply-To: <40.26f4a54.27269019@aol.com> Message-ID: Dear Dr. Phil, we have tried gasification of corn cobs in a downdraft gasifier. Some typical observation were as follws: a) Tendency to form clinkers is high. This is expected as the deformation temperatures for cob-ash is around 810C. The cob is definitely going to pass through a high temperature zone and therefore the ash will deform precipitating clinker formation. However, since the ash content as such is on the lower side (<2%), the clinker formation can be avoided(actually disturbed as soon as it starts forming) by periodic disturbance of the bed at the oxidation zone. The problem can be handled, nevertheless it is there. b)As far as tar is concerned, any gasifier designed for wood can be used for cob, as the Potential Tar Forming Volatiles are about the same percentage. I hope this is of some use. regards Anuradda Ganesh On Tue, 24 Oct 2000 VHarris001@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 10/24/2000 1:55:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > marshbro@mcbridebc.net writes: > > > Hello all: > > > > I have just arrived with the questions of the day. Since the price of > > natural gas climbing fast people are looking for alternatives. I have some > > contacts that are into the greenhouse business in a very big way but they > > have lots of corn available. > > > > Here they are then: > > 1 How many BTU's could one expect fom a kg of corn? > > 2 Would corn make a decent gasifier fuel? > > 3 How about the cobs if they were run through a hogger? > > 4 Has anyone tried to gasify corn before.? > > > > If anyone has some ideas on this I would sure like to hear them. > > > > Thanks in advance, > > > > Phil Marsh. > > Hi Phil, > > I just read an article about corn stoves. Corn makes good stove fuel. For a > start, you should do a search for "corn stove" at: > > www.google.com > > Now that yellow food corn has been recalled after being commingled with > genetically modified yellow feed corn, corn for fuel should be even cheaper > and more plentiful for a while. Kellogg's shut down some production. I > wonder how good a fuel corn flakes makes > > Gosh, with all the controversy surrounding genetically modified plants, it's > hard to imagine that grain elevator operators would risk commingling. It's > this kind of lax controls that set the nuclear industry back 50 years. If > the genetics folks don't wise up, ethanol WILL be the biggest crop produced > in the nations bread basket, and corn gasification research grants will > abound. > > I'm sure others here have plenty of info on corn as fuel. Perhaps Tom Reed > will share information regarding corn fuel in his Turbo Stove. > > Best wishes, > Vernon Harris > The Gasification List is sponsored by > USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/ > and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com > > Other Sponsors, Archives and Information > http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm > http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive > http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml > http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/ > http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml > The Gasification List is sponsored by USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/ and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com Other Sponsors, Archives and Information http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/ http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml From Reedtb2 at cs.com Wed Oct 25 10:17:20 2000 From: Reedtb2 at cs.com (Reedtb2@cs.com) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:45 2004 Subject: GAS-L: Sawdust pellets Message-ID: <44.8593600.27284521@cs.com> Dear all: The 70 kWh/ton required to make the pellets equates to 252 Megajoules. The combustion of the pellets releases about 20 gigajoueles/ton, a ratio of 80 MJ out for each megajoule in. It's not quite that good though, since the efficiency of generating the power is typically 33%, so the ratio reduces to 26. Still a pretty good multiplication factor if otherwise the biomass is unusable. Lots of die wear in the ring die. Beware of sander dust. Probably an advantage to make 1-2 cm pellets where possible rather than the typical US 6 mm pellet... Yours, TOM REED BEF In a message dated 10/24/00 2:40:39 PM Mountain Daylight Time, RogBrown40@aol.com writes: << Hello, The machine most commonly used to make pellets, out of a very wide range of materials including sawdust, is a ring die pelletiser. Ring die pelletisers are widely used in the animal feed industry and secondhand machines are readily available. The feedstock needs to be consistent particularly in terms of moisture content and particle size. Energy requirement foor sawdust around 50 to 70kwhr per tonne. You'll probably need a grinder/hammer mill to size the feedstock and maybe a pellet cooler as well, as the pellets will exit the pelletiser die at between 80 and 90C. Regards, Roger Brown >> The Gasification List is sponsored by USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/ and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com Other Sponsors, Archives and Information http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/ http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml From Reedtb2 at cs.com Wed Oct 25 10:17:50 2000 From: Reedtb2 at cs.com (Reedtb2@cs.com) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:45 2004 Subject: GAS-L: Corn gasification anyone? Arghhh Message-ID: <65.b74bf80.27284533@cs.com> Dear Ed: With the primative technology of fermentation corn is certainly a good feedstock, and special situations and a big subsidy (to ADM) permit its use. However, METHANOL can be made with 55-65% efficiency from the corn stover (leave 10% behind for tilth), leaving the corn for higher uses. But that requires gasification yet to be demonstrated for corn, but already demonstrated for wood chips. I have a gallon jug of methanol made from chips in my garage dating to 1985. Yours truly, TOM REED BEF/CPC In a message dated 10/24/00 9:36:36 AM Mountain Daylight Time, woolsey@netins.net writes: << Dear Tom I have some experience in the ethanol industry. One of the major battles we have fought and continue to fight has been with some members of what I'll call the "humanitarian" community. The battle has been called the "food verses fuel" debate. The argument goes .....any potential human food which is directed to the energy market will cause more people on this planet to starve. The corn to ethanol industry has countered this argument by showing that the worlds population is short on protein and not carbohydrates and the corn to ethanol process uses only the starch, actually making the remaining higher protein product easier to move into the human food chain. This argument has worked for the industry. That would not be the case if you burn your food product. (wheat rye etc.) We have had some people advocating burning #2 yellow corn for energy here in Iowa. The idea being to reduce the oversupply of corn, raising the price of the remaining corn, and providing a lower cost heat source. I have done my best to discourage this effort. (outside of out of condition seed corn, and other waste) I can think of no better way to motivate the anti-biomass activists. My two cents. Ed Woolsey >> The Gasification List is sponsored by USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/ and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com Other Sponsors, Archives and Information http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/ http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml From dschmidt at undeerc.org Wed Oct 25 12:21:23 2000 From: dschmidt at undeerc.org (Schmidt, Darren) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:45 2004 Subject: GAS-L: gasification Message-ID: <200010251621.MAA24930@crest.solarhost.com> Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 08:54:27 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" We have bench scale fluidized bed gasifiers and other equipment at the EERC. See web at www.undeerc.org. Darren D. Schmidt, P.E. Research Manager Energy & Environmental Research Center PO Box 9018 Grand Forks, North Dakota 58202 dschmidt@undeerc.org Ph (701) 777-5120 Fax (701) 777-5181 -----Original Message----- From: David Bernard Levin [mailto:dlevin@uvic.ca] Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2000 9:12 PM To: undisclosed-recipients Subject: GAS-L: gasification Hello, I found your e-mail address on the Internet. I am interested in finding a commercial supplier of a small, bench top gasifier. I am developing a research project in collaboration with researchers at the National Renewable Energy Lab in Colorado, working on a bacterium that can convert carbon monoxide and water to hydrogen. The idea is to gasify solid waste and use the CO produced to feed the bacteria, which can use the CO as a sole carbon source for growth, and produce H2 as a by-product. The H2 would be used to generate electricity using a PEM fuel cell. A couple of the research questions that need to addressed are 1) the quality and quantity of gas (specifically CO) produced from different types of solid waste, and 2) how much energy does it take to generate the gas verse how much energy we get out (in terms of electricity produced from PEM fueld cells that use the H2 generated). So, I would really be greatful if you (or someone out there) could tell me if a small, bench top gasifier is available commercially and who sells it. I thank you for your consideration in this matter. Sincerely, David B. Levin, Ph.D. Associate Professor The Gasification List is sponsored by USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/ and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com Other Sponsors, Archives and Information http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/ http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml The Gasification List is sponsored by USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/ and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com Other Sponsors, Archives and Information http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/ http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml From hauserman at corpcomm.net Mon Oct 30 13:02:50 2000 From: hauserman at corpcomm.net (Hauserman) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:45 2004 Subject: GAS-L: Transport Costs Message-ID: <00a501c0429b$6ab6c1a0$caf346cf@Hauserman> Hi!       Does anyone out there know of a credible transportation cost model,  that estimates costs/ton-mile for hauling various biomass fuels from around say a 30 to 50 mile radius, taking into type, capacity, and capital costs of new trucks, bought for the purpose, as well as labor, fuel and other components?       Thanks so much.       Bill Hauserman,       hauserman@corpcomm.net     From LINVENT at aol.com Mon Oct 30 13:22:38 2000 From: LINVENT at aol.com (LINVENT@aol.com) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:45 2004 Subject: GAS-L: Transport Costs Message-ID: Bill, The cost is usually figured on a ton-mile basis which comes out to $.08. Costs may be higher due to present fuel costs. TomTaylor The Gasification List is sponsored by USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/ and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com Other Sponsors, Archives and Information http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/ http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml From c.downing at sri.org.au Mon Oct 30 17:55:14 2000 From: c.downing at sri.org.au (Chris Downing) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:45 2004 Subject: GAS-L: Transport Costs Message-ID: Tom, The cost you quoted sounds low for our biomass hauling conditions (Australian fuel costs are higher $US0.6/L, our prime mover costs would also be higher). Hauling sugar cane bagasse (seasonal conditions) over these distances would cost our industry $US 0.2-0.25/ton-mile, approximately, due to low bulk density (about 200 kg/m3). Higher density materials, eg. woodchip (400 kg/m3) would therefore cost about half this amount per ton-mile to haul. Bill, It is relatively straight forward to make your own hauling model in an MS Excel spreadsheet. You need to collect purchase costs, estimate load/unload times and travel speeds. You also need some idea of the bulk density of the materials you intend to haul, and hence how much you can fit in a trailer, etc. Regards, Chris Downing Sugar Research Institute Mackay, Australia LINVENT@aol.com Sent by: To: gasification@crest.org owner-gasification cc: @crest.org Subject: Re: GAS-L: Transport Costs 31/10/2000 04:20 Please respond to gasification Bill, The cost is usually figured on a ton-mile basis which comes out to $.08. Costs may be higher due to present fuel costs. TomTaylor The Gasification List is sponsored by USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/ and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com Other Sponsors, Archives and Information http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/ http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml The Gasification List is sponsored by USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/ and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com Other Sponsors, Archives and Information http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/ http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml From costaeec at kcnet.com Mon Oct 30 23:35:54 2000 From: costaeec at kcnet.com (Jim Dunham) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:45 2004 Subject: GAS-L: Transport Costs Message-ID: <002c01c042f3$5f326c00$ae65f0d1@default> Bill,   The cost per mile is easily computed (same for any type freight), but the key for biomass hauling is in the cost per mile per ton. Virtually all such materials are quite 'loose' and thus, it is usually impossible to maximize the hauling capacity of the truck. Most biomass materials will be less than half the potential capacity.   Densification by briquetting will allow full loads and thus reduce transportation costs by half or more. The costs of briquetting are offset by miles. We have computer models which analyze all factors and show the mile range which dictates when densification becomes economically viable.   Briquettes are far easier to handle, store, and stoker feed. The also have far better burn characteristics.   As you may have guessed; we sell all types of densification equipment. Not selling anything now, but the concept. Hope this helps.   Jim Dunham EEC 816-452-6663
-----Original Message-----From: Hauserman <hauserman@corpcomm.net>To: GAS-L <gasification@crest.org>Date: Monday, October 30, 2000 12:03 PMSubject: GAS-L: Transport Costs Hi!       Does anyone out there know of a credible transportation cost model,  that estimates costs/ton-mile for hauling various biomass fuels from around say a 30 to 50 mile radius, taking into type, capacity, and capital costs of new trucks, bought for the purpose, as well as labor, fuel and other components?       Thanks so much.       Bill Hauserman,       hauserman@corpcomm.net     From c.downing at sri.org.au Tue Oct 31 00:59:15 2000 From: c.downing at sri.org.au (Chris Downing) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:45 2004 Subject: GAS-L: Transport Costs Message-ID: Watch the energy cost for compaction and the drying/dewatering costs associated with bringing the biomass to a low enough moisture content to maintain a briquette or pelleted form (12-15%M). Do the sums carefully. Regards, Chris Downing "Jim Dunham" m> cc: Sent by: Subject: Re: GAS-L: Transport Costs owner-gasification @crest.org 31/10/2000 14:30 Please respond to gasification Bill, The cost per mile is easily computed (same for any type freight), but the key for biomass hauling is in the cost per mile per ton. Virtually all such materials are quite 'loose' and thus, it is usually impossible to maximize the hauling capacity of the truck. Most biomass materials will be less than half the potential capacity. Densification by briquetting will allow full loads and thus reduce transportation costs by half or more. The costs of briquetting are offset by miles. We have computer models which analyze all factors and show the mile range which dictates when densification becomes economically viable. Briquettes are far easier to handle, store, and stoker feed. The also have far better burn characteristics. As you may have guessed; we sell all types of densification equipment. Not selling anything now, but the concept. Hope this helps. Jim Dunham EEC 816-452-6663 -----Original Message----- From: Hauserman To: GAS-L Date: Monday, October 30, 2000 12:03 PM Subject: GAS-L: Transport Costs Hi! Does anyone out there know of a credible transportation cost model, that estimates costs/ton-mile for hauling various biomass fuels from around say a 30 to 50 mile radius, taking into type, capacity, and capital costs of new trucks, bought for the purpose, as well as labor, fuel and other components? Thanks so much. Bill Hauserman, hauserman@corpcomm.net The Gasification List is sponsored by USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/ and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com Other Sponsors, Archives and Information http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/ http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml From p.m.davies at bigpond.com.au Tue Oct 31 03:35:58 2000 From: p.m.davies at bigpond.com.au (Peter M. Davies) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:45 2004 Subject: GAS-L: Transport Costs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001201c04315$9475dba0$371a28cb@M.Davies> Whilst watching the energy cost of briquetting/moisture reduction check sums on hauling water to your furnace to go up in the flue gases. If you are talking transport costs by the ton-mile and 1/3-1/2 of the mass is water in the biomass you are already in double jepardy, both the "dead" weight of the water and the cooling effect in the combustion has an impact. Much better to dry it and compact it closer to its source. Where the energy is drawn from the biomass itself for this process the "energy cost" loses relevance. Where pre processing of biomass feedstocks (by drying, torrefaction and/or compaction) is conducted the effective "biomass catchment" or area from which biomass can be sourced is significantly increased and may give the necessary scale benefits to achieve more efficient boiler designs particularly where coupled with designs optimised for the higher density uniform feedstocks produced. Cheers, Peter Peter M Davies ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris Downing To: Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2000 4:57 PM Subject: Re: GAS-L: Transport Costs > > Watch the energy cost for compaction and the drying/dewatering costs > associated with bringing the biomass to a low enough moisture content to > maintain a briquette or pelleted form (12-15%M). Do the sums carefully. > > Regards, > Chris Downing > The Gasification List is sponsored by USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/ and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com Other Sponsors, Archives and Information http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/ http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml From c.downing at sri.org.au Tue Oct 31 18:44:20 2000 From: c.downing at sri.org.au (Chris Downing) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:08:46 2004 Subject: GAS-L: Transport Costs Message-ID: It's pretty hard to be completely generalised in the discussion. We need to be careful that we are comparing apples with apples. If the drying is natural solar (ie. sun on ground), the cost will be negligible. However, (artificial) thermal drying and mechanical dewatering are not cost-free processes. If the biomass is transported in a LOOSE form, the reduction in moisture content will not have a large effect on the (dry) fibre density per cubic metre (the actual effect would depend on the specific biomass being considered), although the energy density will be some margin higher for the dried material (depending on the total change in moisture content). You may be transporting less water but costs are determined under these circumstances on a volume basis not a total mass basis, due to the low bulk density of the material (whether 15 or 50 % moisture). For the issue of the mass of water transported to be critical in transport costing, a particular bulk density must be exceeded; this would be the point at which mass becomes the limiting transport factor rather than volume. If the biomass is transported in a DENSIFIED form, let's say pelleted, then the transition from volume basis to mass basis would probably been exceeded (depending upon the biomass being considered, of course). If dewatering occurs during pelleting then the costs of pelleting could be weighed against the benefits gained in transport, increase in heating value and gains in boiler efficiency. If dewatering is a separate (artificial) operation, it's costs must be considered in bigger picture... "Peter M. Davies" d.com.au> cc: Sent by: Subject: Re: GAS-L: Transport Costs owner-gasification @crest.org 31/10/2000 18:35 Please respond to gasification Whilst watching the energy cost of briquetting/moisture reduction check sums on hauling water to your furnace to go up in the flue gases. If you are talking transport costs by the ton-mile and 1/3-1/2 of the mass is water in the biomass you are already in double jepardy, both the "dead" weight of the water and the cooling effect in the combustion has an impact. Much better to dry it and compact it closer to its source. Where the energy is drawn from the biomass itself for this process the "energy cost" loses relevance. Where pre processing of biomass feedstocks (by drying, torrefaction and/or compaction) is conducted the effective "biomass catchment" or area from which biomass can be sourced is significantly increased and may give the necessary scale benefits to achieve more efficient boiler designs particularly where coupled with designs optimised for the higher density uniform feedstocks produced. Cheers, Peter Peter M Davies ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris Downing To: Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2000 4:57 PM Subject: Re: GAS-L: Transport Costs > > Watch the energy cost for compaction and the drying/dewatering costs > associated with bringing the biomass to a low enough moisture content to > maintain a briquette or pelleted form (12-15%M). Do the sums carefully. > > Regards, > Chris Downing > The Gasification List is sponsored by USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/ and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com Other Sponsors, Archives and Information http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/ http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml The Gasification List is sponsored by USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/ and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com Other Sponsors, Archives and Information http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/ http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml