July 2001 Gasification Archive

From mpendleton at perihq.com Mon Jul 2 11:12:31 2001
From: mpendleton at perihq.com (Mike Pendleton)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:27 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Energy from Whey
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010702105523.023dac00@pop.cais.com>

Does anyone know of efforts to utilize the whey by-product from cheese
manufacturing for producing energy? I am aware that many of the larger
cheese manufacturers are able to take the protein out of whey and sell it;
others land spread whey to dispose of it. It is my understanding that
years ago there were efforts to make ethanol from whey, but that was
abandoned because it was uneconomical. I have also heard of an instance
where whey was added to manure to increase moisture content in anaerobic
digestors. Can anyone comment on past or ongoing efforts to obtain energy
(electricity) from whey? Thanks!

Mike Pendleton

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From kssustain at provide.net Mon Jul 2 11:49:47 2001
From: kssustain at provide.net (Kermit Schlansker)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:27 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Sustainability plans
Message-ID: <000d01c1030d$7a4b54e0$124256d8@default>

I wish all of you on ROE, and energyresources would stop bickering, stay on
subject, and concentrate on work that will help save my Grandchildren. A
book which is very much on subject which I hope some of you will buy is
"Renewable Energy" from Island press This book gives a good survey of
solar, wind, and biomass. As it
stands now there are no tactics published on the Internet that will save
society. The various energy groups are really not combining to produce a
sustainability plan. I have tried but my material needs improvement and no one
reads it. We need to
figure out some tactics which will make a difference. We could possibly write a
manifesto and try to get some of our lawmakers to read it. Certainly it is
possible to prevent wholesale death in the USA for 200 years if the right things
are done.
The keys to
Sustainability are apartment houses, planned communities, railroads, co
manufacturing, cogeneration, everyone farming and manufacturing, no houses, no
cars, no planes, technically adroit conservation, massive tree planting, solar,
wind, and biomass energy and short travel distances.
I am
including my latest 4 minute speech to Ann Arbor City Council.


Kermit Schlansker Ann Arbor,
Mi

Biomass

When
natural gas and oil are gone there will be insufficient coal, solar, or wind to
heat houses. It will take martial law to prevent the wholesale cutting of trees.
Solar and wind are regional and intermittent sources and can never replace
fossil fuels in the quantity that we are using now. Possible biomass energy
sources are wood, crop residues, energy crops, leaves, grasses, seaweed, algae,
sewage, and manure. A mass planting of trees would not only store carbon thus
slowing Global Warming, but would also make an energy source for future
generations. Trees grow food in the form of fruit and nuts. Forests are useful
for nature, lumber, fuel, food and topsoil. Leaves and cuttings from trees and
shrubs are an excellent source of energy. Ashes from burning biomass will become
a prime source of fertilizer in the future. Biomass is the only energy source
that is dependable enough to heat buildings in the winter. However unless it is
used in the most efficient way there will not be enough.
The most popular way of using
wood to make electricity has been to convert it to steam in a boiler and then
use the steam to power steam engines or turbines. Another process is to
partially burn wood chips thus producing a combustible gas that can be used to
run an engine. During World War 2 the Germans and many others powered cars with
wood chips. I myself crouched beside the gasification stove while riding with a
German salesman shortly after the war in the back of a wood powered VW bug.
There is a design of a small wood gas generator on the Internet that powers a
tractor. If the wood gas is ran through a catalyst it is possible to make
methanol. This probably will be the prime method of making tractor fuel because
it can be done anywhere in the country on a local basis and uses cellulose
rather than food as
feedstock. A way of
converting soft biomass to energy is to combine it with sewage in a tank and use
the digesting action of bacteria to produce biogas that is a mixture of methane
and carbon dioxide. The process is about 50% efficient. The really good thing
about this process is that tank residues are excellent fertilizers. This gas can
also be converted to methanol. In China there are many small biogas generators
made from polyethylene bags. Every scrap of human and animal manure is carefully
saved for these bags. Much of this energy is used for
cooking. Ethanol is a
possible tractor fuel and can be made from corn or other sources of starches and
sugars. This process has been controversial because food is used as feedstock
and because it takes about as much energy to produce the ethanol as there is in
it. Production of
Ethanol and Methanol and other biomass processes can be made more energy
effective if they are done only in the winter by heating systems. In that way
all of the waste heat from digestion, fermenting, distilling, chemical processes
and electrical generation is used to heat the building and the process becomes
100% efficient. Another efficient way of gasifying wood and distilling ethanol
would be to do it in summer using solar mirrors and collecting the waste heat to
make
electricity.
Local governments must get involved in planting fruit and nut trees for food and
energy and do research on how to plant at lowest cost. Future generations can
not exist if local governments persist in being so technically inept and morally
uncaring in their attitude towards the future.


Kermit Schlansker

From jerry5335 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 2 19:46:22 2001
From: jerry5335 at yahoo.com (jerry dycus)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:27 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Energy from Whey
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010702105523.023dac00@pop.cais.com>
Message-ID: <20010702234421.61191.qmail@web14008.mail.yahoo.com>

Hi Mike and All,
They recently reopened an ethanol from whey
plant in Cal because the price has finally gone high
enough to make it worthwhile. They had stopped making
it about 6 years ago. I assume they feed the protien
to cattle.
jerry dycus
--- Mike Pendleton <mpendleton@perihq.com> wrote:
> Does anyone know of efforts to utilize the whey
> by-product from cheese
> manufacturing for producing energy?

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From snkm at btl.net Thu Jul 5 23:55:36 2001
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:27 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Uniflow stuff
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20010705215055.008eb970@wgs1.btl.net>

At 01:21 PM 7/1/2001 +0200, George Tyler <gtyler@mweb.co.za>

wrote:

>The way I understand it, you need the compression at the top of the
>cylinder to stop condensation, this is the reasoning behind the uniflow
>designs.

Not really. It is a side effect they had to live with. That being you are
always going to be compressing something on the return stroke. In many
Uniflow designs -- and all not running a vacuum at the exhaust -- they had
to put an auxiliary exhaust valve in the cylinder head not to blow the top
off!!

The reasoning is in regards to a unified flow of working fluid from top to
bottom -- or hot to cold -- allowing for maximum expansion in one cylinder
rather than multiple expansion cylinders.

The important reason for this is to avoid the exhausting of cooled vapor
(end of stroke -- work extracted vapor) against the top part of the
cylinder and cylinder head.

What happens in those cases is the exhaust vapor is heated -- that is --
takes heat -- from the metal parts - -which costs "steam" to replace --
thereby lowering efficiencies. And this by a substantial amount in the big
cylinder -- slow rpm -- steam engines

In the uniflow running a vacuum at exhaust port -- through bottom
circumference of cylinder only -- and the return stroke does not have
further exhaust valving -- thus residual vapors are compressed with no
exiting -- meaning they heat up. So then they do not cool the top of the
engine -- and yes -- efficiencies are better.

But if you put a valve in the piston -- you get the same results -- but no
compression -- and even a little higher efficiencies. And best of all --
you do not need a vacuum at your exhaust -- can operate as in a true
uniflow manner -- even with a back pressure at the exhaust side.

Makes all the difference in this world.

Peter / Belize

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From graeme at powerlink.co.nz Fri Jul 6 02:35:22 2001
From: graeme at powerlink.co.nz (Graeme Williams)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:27 2004
Subject: Fluidyne Reports
Message-ID: <001301c105e5$720d2bc0$0e9636d2@graeme>

Dear Colleagues

This is a cross posting to both Biomass and Gasification lists as I'm sure
some of the information in these reports is of interest to both groups.
Because of the separate countries involved, I have separated Canada,
Northern Ireland and Germany into separate reports, and will present them as
time allows. I hope you find these activities as interesting as I do, and
share some of the excitement of the individuals who are making it happen.
I'd like to think that 2001 is the year gasification can be seen to stand up
and take its place in renewable energy projects and offer realistic
solutions to the ever increasing problem of waste stream disposal, and
declining rural farming activity.

For those of you who like to know who's who , I'll be introducing all the
team players of the key companies involved in our international alliance. I
will answer questions on our activities but please address them through this
forum so all can share the dialogue.

-----------------------------------

Fluidyne Report – Canada.

In July-August 2000, Eco Puck Waste Management Inc. Built the first of
Fluidyne's Mega Class series of gasifiers in Winnipeg. (See Fluidyne
Archive). http://members.nbci.com/whitools/

Eco Puck is a new company which has developed technology to produce a
specially processed fuel briquette from a previously impossible to gasify
range of waste streams. The two directors of Eco Puck are Arthur Zegil a
Canadian businessman, and Simon Romana PhD, a native New Zealander now
resident in Canada.

Since Simon had known me for a number of years, he asked Fluidyne to provide
him with our technology, as the Canadian government were fully supportive of
renewable energy projects, and Development Banks were primed to fund
appropriate projects.

Problem No. 1.

On completion of the voluminous documentation, its presentation for funding
application was rejected outright by the Banks, and only commercial loans
were offered at exorbitant rates of interest. It appeared that only
Institutional type projects were seen to be appropriate by the Banks and
possibly the Government autocrats. With little option, Art Zegil used his
farm as security and the project is now financed without government funding.
This was later revealed during a demonstration for the Interlake Regional
Councils to gasify combustible MSW, picked up by the local paper, then went
national on T.V. Needless to say government departments and Banks are
falling over themselves to co-operate now!

Problem No. 2.

Initially Eco Puck identified residue short fibre paper pulp as a target
waste stream, and successfully demonstrated its gasification using the new
technology.

The Paper Mills who spend C$200 million on fuel annually saw the potential
to dry their own waste and blow it into their boilers. They suggested the
project should have negative cost, which worked out at C$7/T, which as a
first chance project was acceptable to Eco Puck. When the Mills offered the
contract at C$4.50/T, clearly the bean counters were trying to capitalise at
the expense of a small company, using the old "its never been done before",
so risky for us ploy! Unfortunately for the Mills, subsequent fuel trials
on MSW, hemp, flax, straw, coal and sewage sludge, waste wood etc. Has put
their need on the back burner, as other projects offer considerable
financial return for all parties.

Problem No. 3

During demonstrations using coal and or MSW, the assembled Utility engineers
were convinced they were watching an incineration process despite the fact
there were gas flares on the twin stacks. Clearly some engineers attached to
Utilities and other planning departments have little or none at all
knowledge of gasification. As manufacturers, our own knowledge of what we
do is judged by people incapable by anyone's standard to evaluate our
processes. If a process can be demonstrated successfully by a manufacturer,
who or why has it to be judged? Doesn't it just then become a choice of can
it do the job or not?

Problem No. 4

When equipment is sold, it has to be agreed that due scrutiny of performance
and economics be taken into consideration, and generally speaking, this
established way of doing business has seen the poor economics of
gasification kill most potential projects. To overcome first the lack of
commercial sector knowledge which restricts sales, then installation costs,
operator training, maintenance etc. We have formulated a business plan in
Canada that will become the marketing procedure for our international
alliance companies.

A:Ownership of all gasifiers is retained by the alliance companies.
B: Under a franchised agreement, gasifiers will be leased with options to
operating and servicing.
C: All gasifier feedstock is targeted as a waste disposal service and power
generation becomes a secondary activity.
D: All types of energy farming of woody biomass is to be supported by
alliance companies. i.e. Develop co-operative farming ventures with
infrastructural support to implement local power generation.
E: All gasification and power generation activity will be conducted to the
highest possible standards where standards exist, or to meet EPA regulations
set in the U.S.A.

Current situation.

Eco Puck have made considerable progress and have overcome initial problems
with various administrations, the most important being support from the
Manatoba Provincial Government.

Possibly for the first time anywhere, a government has come forward with
real support for gasification. The Minister of Development has authorised
funding for a Gasifier operator training course to be conducted at the Red
River Technical Institute in Winnipeg. This will comprise of 3 months
theoretical and 3 months practical with Eco Puck providing the practical
support. I believe the Professor has been appointed, and core subjects
organised, so trained operators will become available within this coming
year.

Further government support by way of "An order in council" for the
generation of 300MW to be purchased by Manatoba Hydro for export to the
U.S.A. Has been allocated to Eco Puck.

Before Eco Puck begins commercial operations, a full test programme to EPA
standards is being conducted and should be concluded by the end of July
2001. There are no operating standards for gasifiers in Canada.

The first project, to gasify Winnipeg's sewage sludge, will flare the gas to
waste for the first six months, to enable 24 hour 100% duty cycle of
components to be tested.

Power generation using gas turbines will be provided and operated by Foster
Engineering, a U.S. Turbine generation company. Priority is also being
given to gasify the combustible MSW from the Interlake Regional Councils, in
what is to be Canada's first waste-energy project at the Selkirk landfill
near Winnipeg.

Farming communities in Canada are in decline as grain farming has become
uneconomic in some areas. Encouraged to diversify into other crops such as
flax and hemp, many have discovered this to be an illusory marketable crop.

It does grow fast however and Eco Puck consider this crop as ideal for
processing into their Eco Briquettes. It can be harvested and chopped green
and then fed straight into the process to produce ready to use fuel. The
briquette is rock hard and can be stored or transported with minim um damage
or deterioration of the fuel.

Early studies suggest that a central power station could be practically
supplied from a 5 mile radius of the grid with a station every 10 miles.
Used for peak time generation, farming co-operatives will be able to achieve
financial stability and provide revenues into the distant future.

Other processes to use the gas are in the pipeline for rural communities,
and Eco Puck as 13 downstream patent applications in place for their use.
These cannot be disclosed in these reports at this time.

Production of the Mega Class gasifier will commence in Winnipeg in August
with the first three units going to the sludge project, the fourth to
Northern Ireland and the fifth to Germany. It is planned to achieve a
production level of one unit/day, as the next sewage project will require
thirty gasifiers just for one city. This equates to 30T/hr , so I'll be
looking to increase the output of the Mega Class to 3T/hr to reduce
construction costs, and consolidate fuel feeding systems.

Comment:
Eco Puck have done more for gasification in one year than any of our
activity has achieved to date. Without financial support their personal
workload has been nothing less than mind-boggling just to get to the
starting line.

Having overcome the impasse of buying and selling gasifiers there should now
be no problems of implementing gasifiers in North America, that is if
administrations will accept a seeing is believing policy. All manufacturers
will benefit eventually.

Doug Williams
Fluidyne Gasification.

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From jseguro at yahoo.com Fri Jul 6 16:13:37 2001
From: jseguro at yahoo.com (Mr. Jean Seguro)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:27 2004
Subject: Fluidyne Reports
In-Reply-To: <001301c105e5$720d2bc0$0e9636d2@graeme>
Message-ID: <20010706201128.26617.qmail@web10101.mail.yahoo.com>

Dear Doug,

Congratulations, this must be indeed exiting times for you. I am glad
to read that you have found support for your gasifiers and hope that
you can continue to do so and develop and establish your technology.

Please keep me in the loop with future information and news.

A couple of years ago I did a technology evaluation of commercially
available technologies for gasification and came out pretty deceived.
The performance was not better than that of regular incinerator and
construction and operation costs were higher. I really hope that your
technology has overcome those barriers.

I have some ideas to develop some rice husk-to-energy projects, and
have a few questions for you:

- Has your technology been proven with rice husk?

- What is the maximum temperature inside the gasifier?

- What is the composition of the ash that comes out of the gasifier?
(of course this is fuel specific)

- What is the thermal efficiency and expected electrical efficiency?

Please let me know more about your progress and the best luck for you.

Regards,

Jean

=====
Jean V. Seguro, Ph.D.
Mechanical Engineer
Manufacturing (Process Development)/Biomass/Wind Energy/Solar Water Pumping
e-mail:JSeguro@yahoo.com

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From english at adan.kingston.net Sat Jul 7 12:31:06 2001
From: english at adan.kingston.net (*.English)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:27 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Oxygen sensor-plc
Message-ID: <200107071628.MAA10612@adan.kingston.net>

Thanks for the feed back,
We'll see it this project can remain in closed -loop mode with the expertise that is out there.

The sensor I am using is distributed by Niehoff . FE957 Oxygen Sensor. It cost about 45 USD
here in Canada. I assumed that these sensors are easily fouled and
would tolerate only fairly low levels of soot and particulates in
the gas stream. There is interest out there in using these for
reducing excess air in wood stoves where much of the air is
effectively tramp air, not involved in well-mixed combustion. I would
be interested in any speculation as to how long the sensor would last
in these environments.

The hot sensor output went from -11mV in ambient chimney (no fire) conditions to between 10
and 22 mV depending on the air setting during firing. It could reliable pick up subtle changes in
chimney conditions when a second boiler burner starts. The increased flow resistance reduced
net air introduction to boiler 1 and this was seen as a change from 20 to 22mv, and back again
when the second boiler went off. None of my other boiler tools would pick up this change.

The plc I was considering is the T100MD1616+ at
www.tri-plc.com for about 315 USD.
I've been learning on the simpler E10 ($99) which includes the software for the H and M series.
This seems to be the cheapest way to get started. The issue seem to be that low millivolt
readings get lost in noise. So even the O-1volt input range with 10 bit resolution will not reliably
handle thermocouple output which would be comparable to the oxygen sensor output. Does any
one know the extent of this so called "noise". +/- how many millivolts? Signal conditioners will
add more money, which is always undesirable for prototypeoing.

The output from the plc would control a motorized damper or two.

Suggestions are welcome.

My goals are three fold.
1. First, used with a pellet burner that doesn't really need it, to see it it can reliably modulate
secondary combustion air to match the ramping between low and high fire settings, based on
primary under-fuel air for pyrolysis.
2. To see if it can be set up for a seamless transition to second stage char gasification/
combustion.
3. To adapt the system for less ideal fuels such as chips and tree waste mixes which could
frequently have variable gas output.

For the time being it would be a manually started with the sensor and plc taking over until the
end of the batch load.

Alex English

Alex English
RR 2 Odessa, Ontario
Canada K0H 2H0
613-386-1927

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From Gavin at roseplac.worldonline.co.uk Sat Jul 7 19:34:14 2001
From: Gavin at roseplac.worldonline.co.uk (Gavin Gulliver-Goodall)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:28 2004
Subject: GAS-L: RV: CO2 / Oxygen Sensors
In-Reply-To: <NDBBJGKCDMKFPFGODDJPIEAHCFAA.newsgroup@kaupp.net>
Message-ID: <MABBJLGAAFJBOBCKKPMGAEPJCCAA.Gavin@roseplac.worldonline.co.uk>

Albrecht, Roberto et al,
I too am working on controlling secondary air with a Bosch lambda sensor
The LA2 unit is discontinued and the replacement LA3 is built to order at a
cost of UKP 3000
I have had long conversations with Bosch application engineers who say they
have no accurate calibration for the sensor as it is designed for high/low
(on off) contol loop applications -basically a digital rich -lean output for
auto motive use.
Thanks for the pointer to install the senor vertivally -I was about to use
it horizonally. Question how does the reference air get along the wires
which appear tightly twisted multi strand tinned copper pvc insulated?
I intend to calibrate with an electrochemical cell and would welcome any
info on your calibration experiences- I will post mine in due course

Gavin Gulliver Goodall
3G Energi,
Allesudden,
Charlesfield,
St.Boswells
Melrose
TD6 0HH

Tel 01835 824201
Fax 0870 8314098
Mob 07773 781498
E mail Gavin@3genergi.co.uk

-----Original Message-----
From: Kaupp [mailto:newsgroup@kaupp.net]
Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2001 4:56
To: english@adan.kingston.net; Roberto Kopper; bioenergy@crest.com
Cc: Gasification@crest.org; Dr.-Ing. Michael J. Meixner
Subject: RE: GAS-L: RV: CO2 / Oxygen Sensors

Hi,
Bosch manufacturers this sensor as a special make for combustion systems
with a slightly changed heating element that improves the asymptotic
behaviour of the mv signal at high O2 values( >10 %). The type number is
LSM 11. The BOSCH part number is 0258 104 002. All technical sensor
specifications are with me in cae somebody needs it.The sensor should be
installed in a VERTICAL position with the wires pointing upwards since the
wires are the channels for the refernce ambient air. Vertical position is
important because CONDENSATE KILLS THE SENSOR. Also vanadium oxydes are very
bad for the sensor(short circuits the kathode and anode). Therefore watch
out for heavy fuel oils with high ppm vanadium. The sensor costs exactly
German Mark 376 in in Germany . There is a complete signalconditioning and
display kit available called LA2. Don't know the price .Will know in a
week.We are presently running extensive lab test on the sensor to check on
sensitivity with respect to DC Voltage input change.

Albrecht Kaupp
Senior Advisor
Indo-German Energy Efficiency and Environment Project, IGEEP
21 Jor Bagh, New Delhi 110 003, India
Tel +91-11-4603832-6 or +91-11-6864867 to 68
Fax +91-11-4603831 or +1-801-340-7905 (USA)
email: ali@kaupp.net

-----Original Message-----
From: *.English [mailto:english@adan.kingston.net]
Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2001 8:03 AM
To: Roberto Kopper
Cc: Gasification@crest.org
Subject: Re: GAS-L: RV: CO2 / Oxygen Sensors

Hello Roberto,
My interest in this was re-ignited by a few messages from Mr A. Kaupp
a few weeks ago. I purchased a zirconium oxide sensor built for a
car and tested it with a propane burner and our oil fired boilers.
This type has four wires, two for the sensor and two for a twelve
volt heater. This makes it useful for monitoring cooled stack gases.
The sensors output was very stable and correlated well with excess
air for these burners.

I have started learning to use a programable logic controller. It Is
my intention to adapt this for use with some larger versions of Tom
Reed's Top Lit Pyrolyser. The burners I have used work well with
low excess air (3-10% O2) so I am hopeful that this will be a
successful experiment.

In the spirit of these mailing lists, I would be pleased to share the
results as they develop.

Do you monitor stack gases on your kilns now?

Alex English

> Hello everyone.
> I am very honored to have the visit of Tom Reed in our country for a few
> days.
>
> We mentioned using the O2 sensors for controlling the CO2 level at the
> gasifyer.
> I have 25 combustion kilns for heating coffee dryers burning biomass.
Does
> anyone have experience on using this sensors with kilns? How should they
be
> installed? PLC's ??
> Ideas on how to optimize the combustion and have the correct excess air
> ratio?
> thank you
> Roberto Kopper
>
>
>
Alex English
RR 2 Odessa Ontario
Canada K0H 2H0
Tel 1-613-386-1927
Fax 1-613-386-1211

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From thomas at biopilze.de Sat Jul 7 21:06:11 2001
From: thomas at biopilze.de (Thomas Ziegler)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:28 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Oxygen sensor-plc
In-Reply-To: <200107071628.MAA10612@adan.kingston.net>
Message-ID: <3B47B16E.1A9F9CDD@biopilze.de>

briefly:
to amplify the signal to use it wih a ad-device use a simple low-noise
operational amplifier...?? thomas

*.English schrieb:
>
> Thanks for the feed back,
> We'll see it this project can remain in closed -loop mode with the expertise that is out there.
>
> The sensor I am using is distributed by Niehoff . FE957 Oxygen Sensor. It cost about 45 USD
> here in Canada. I assumed that these sensors are easily fouled and
> would tolerate only fairly low levels of soot and particulates in
> the gas stream. There is interest out there in using these for
> reducing excess air in wood stoves where much of the air is
> effectively tramp air, not involved in well-mixed combustion. I would
> be interested in any speculation as to how long the sensor would last
> in these environments.
>
> The hot sensor output went from -11mV in ambient chimney (no fire) conditions to between 10
> and 22 mV depending on the air setting during firing. It could reliable pick up subtle changes in
> chimney conditions when a second boiler burner starts. The increased flow resistance reduced
> net air introduction to boiler 1 and this was seen as a change from 20 to 22mv, and back again
> when the second boiler went off. None of my other boiler tools would pick up this change.
>
> The plc I was considering is the T100MD1616+ at
> www.tri-plc.com for about 315 USD.
> I've been learning on the simpler E10 ($99) which includes the software for the H and M series.
> This seems to be the cheapest way to get started. The issue seem to be that low millivolt
> readings get lost in noise. So even the O-1volt input range with 10 bit resolution will not reliably
> handle thermocouple output which would be comparable to the oxygen sensor output. Does any
> one know the extent of this so called "noise". +/- how many millivolts? Signal conditioners will
> add more money, which is always undesirable for prototypeoing.
>
> The output from the plc would control a motorized damper or two.
>
> Suggestions are welcome.
>
> My goals are three fold.
> 1. First, used with a pellet burner that doesn't really need it, to see it it can reliably modulate
> secondary combustion air to match the ramping between low and high fire settings, based on
> primary under-fuel air for pyrolysis.
> 2. To see if it can be set up for a seamless transition to second stage char gasification/
> combustion.
> 3. To adapt the system for less ideal fuels such as chips and tree waste mixes which could
> frequently have variable gas output.
>
> For the time being it would be a manually started with the sensor and plc taking over until the
> end of the batch load.
>
> Alex English
>
> Alex English
> RR 2 Odessa, Ontario
> Canada K0H 2H0
> 613-386-1927
>
> -
> Gasification List Archives:
> http://www.crest.org/discussion/gasification/current/
>
> Gasification List Moderator:
> Tom Reed, Biomass Energy Foundation, Reedtb2@cs.com
> www.webpan.com/BEF
>
> Sponsor the Gasification List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html
> -
> Other Gasification Events and Information:
> http://www.fsec.ucf.edu/bioam/
> http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml
> http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/

--
der kleine deutsche oeko-pilz-anbauer \
the small german organic mushroomer http://www.biopilze.de/wir.htm
le petit eco - champignoneur allemand /

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From newsgroup at kaupp.net Sat Jul 7 23:52:42 2001
From: newsgroup at kaupp.net (Kaupp)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:28 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Oxygen sensor-plc
In-Reply-To: <200107071628.MAA10612@adan.kingston.net>
Message-ID: <NDBBJGKCDMKFPFGODDJPEEDGCFAA.newsgroup@kaupp.net>

Hallo,

The asymptotic behaviour of the mV versus % oxygen in the gas output curve
is not so much a problem. We don't like to operate boilers and many other
furnaces beyond 10% oxygen anyway. All cheap sensors utilizing the Nerst
equation show weak mV signals over the entire range. Forget about
amplifications. KISS is beautiful.The sensitivity and resolution is too low
to be of any commercial use. However having 200 mV to 400 mV at nitrogen
atmosphere and 30-50 mV at 10% is a reasonable good behaviour. The lambda
sensor provided by Bosch and used in cars is by the way not the right choice
since it is a yes/no sensor detecting oxygen. Bosch manufactures a special
one for combustion systems, that does not show this extrem flat and fast
dropping mV curve at higher oxygen contents. To what extent the stack gas
has 3.5% or 4 % oxygen is not so relevant in an assessment if you don't have
the task to test the boiler according to ASEM PTC-4. Of more interest is the
claim of manufacturers with respect to sensitivities of variations in the
Voltage to the heating element. The Nerst equation governs the mV output,
and reacts strongly to changes in temperature of the actual sensor surface.

-----Original Message-----
From: *.English [mailto:english@adan.kingston.net]
Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2001 10:58 PM
To: gasification@crest.org
Subject: GAS-L: Oxygen sensor-plc

Thanks for the feed back,
We'll see it this project can remain in closed -loop mode with the expertise
that is out there.

The sensor I am using is distributed by Niehoff . FE957 Oxygen Sensor. It
cost about 45 USD
here in Canada. I assumed that these sensors are easily fouled and
would tolerate only fairly low levels of soot and particulates in
the gas stream. There is interest out there in using these for
reducing excess air in wood stoves where much of the air is
effectively tramp air, not involved in well-mixed combustion. I would
be interested in any speculation as to how long the sensor would last
in these environments.

The hot sensor output went from -11mV in ambient chimney (no fire)
conditions to between 10
and 22 mV depending on the air setting during firing. It could reliable pick
up subtle changes in
chimney conditions when a second boiler burner starts. The increased flow
resistance reduced
net air introduction to boiler 1 and this was seen as a change from 20 to
22mv, and back again
when the second boiler went off. None of my other boiler tools would pick up
this change.

The plc I was considering is the T100MD1616+ at
www.tri-plc.com for about 315 USD.
I've been learning on the simpler E10 ($99) which includes the software for
the H and M series.
This seems to be the cheapest way to get started. The issue seem to be that
low millivolt
readings get lost in noise. So even the O-1volt input range with 10 bit
resolution will not reliably
handle thermocouple output which would be comparable to the oxygen sensor
output. Does any
one know the extent of this so called "noise". +/- how many millivolts?
Signal conditioners will
add more money, which is always undesirable for prototypeoing.

The output from the plc would control a motorized damper or two.

Suggestions are welcome.

My goals are three fold.
1. First, used with a pellet burner that doesn't really need it, to see it
it can reliably modulate
secondary combustion air to match the ramping between low and high fire
settings, based on
primary under-fuel air for pyrolysis.
2. To see if it can be set up for a seamless transition to second stage
char gasification/
combustion.
3. To adapt the system for less ideal fuels such as chips and tree waste
mixes which could
frequently have variable gas output.

For the time being it would be a manually started with the sensor and plc
taking over until the
end of the batch load.

Alex English

Alex English
RR 2 Odessa, Ontario
Canada K0H 2H0
613-386-1927

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From markus at asco.co.nz Sun Jul 8 18:46:55 2001
From: markus at asco.co.nz (Markus Benter-Lynch)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:28 2004
Subject: FW: GAS-L: Oxygen sensor/CO sensor
Message-ID: <01C10864.59437730.markus@asco.co.nz>

Hi everyone,

Since some of you are discussing O2 sensors, I thought I could through the
following into the court: I am trying to make a combined gasifier/cyclone
combustor work to produce clean AND low O2 flue gas from wood waste. Our
"angle" is carbonic acid production.

The technology commonly used for CO2 production (to make the carbonic acid)
is based on wet absorption of the CO2 in the flue gas with eg a MEA - water
solution. The MEA is not very O2 tolerant. On the other hand, soot and
gaseous products of incomplete combustion are not tolerable either.
Therefore, to make this process work, I have to control it "on the edge"
(ideally 3% O2). One of the problems is to measure CO quickly so CO peaks
can be avoided. Unfortunately, the response time for CO measurement is
usually pretty slow (20-30sec), unless one goes to a laser based instrument
which retails for $40,000.- down under...

I would appreciate if anyone could share any thoughts/experiences on this
with me.

Thanks and regards
Markus Benter-Lynch

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From joseph.fonio at oser.net Tue Jul 10 09:38:10 2001
From: joseph.fonio at oser.net (Joseph FONIO)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:28 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Gasification and pyrolysis in Japan
In-Reply-To: <01C10864.59437730.markus@asco.co.nz>
Message-ID: <00c901c10946$28907100$0f0aa8c0@wanadoo.fr>

Has anyone info about use of gasification and pyrolysis/thermolysis of waste
(any kind of waste, from wood waste to hazardous waste) in Japan ?

I have been told that they have a very special context since almost 75% of
their waste is treated by incineration. With the recent changing of the laws
for atmospheric pollutants limitations, there should be a large market for
innovative thermal technologies for waste treatment.

Any information about such realisations in Japan will be most welcomed.

Best regards.

Joseph Fonio

> -
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> http://www.crest.org/discussion/gasification/current/
>
> Gasification List Moderator:
> Tom Reed, Biomass Energy Foundation, Reedtb2@cs.com
> www.webpan.com/BEF
>
> Sponsor the Gasification List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html
> -
> Other Gasification Events and Information:
> http://www.fsec.ucf.edu/bioam/
> http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml
> http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
>

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From snkm at btl.net Tue Jul 10 10:12:00 2001
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:28 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Alcohol fuel still plans and designs
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20010710080535.00a1c920@wgs1.btl.net>

Hi Keith;

All very interesting.

But dated and small scale.

Do you, or anyone else, have any urls regarding Brazil's endeavors at
commercial levels in production of alcohol from sugar cane??

I remember hearing that Brazil had almost replaced gasoline for vehicles
with ethyl alcohol produced from sugar cane.

Surely -- there must be some gems of interest out there regarding real time
-- not dream time -- applications of this technology??

Why reinvent the wheel?? Is it not simple to find one already in existence
and apply it?

As for the "connection" with this mail list -- gasification.

Well, many members of this list can't believe that new fuel cells are soon
to be introduced that run on alcohol.

But -- what they believe has little to do with what is happening.

And the fuel cell that runs on alcohol is totally dependent on
"Gasification" for the process.

Both "partial-combustion" and "Steam-reforming"

So it seems simply incredible to me that this entire new field of human
endeavor can be ignored on this mail list!!

Folks -- whether we chose to believe it or not -- gasification is making
the technological headlines in the alcohol fuel cell domain.

While WWII gasifier technology is quaint -- we move on with the times --
right??

And the first step in this new world order -- is commercial production of
alcohol derived from plant growth --

And where to look for the leading edge in that domain??

Brazil!

Now -- let's get going -- before they bury us with the rest of the antiques.

Also -- sugar cane is an incredibly easy to grow and productive biomass --
for any of you planning to live in a self sufficient manner in the tropics
-- during this coming global economic meltdown.

Those of you living in the more Northern regions of this planet should be
concerned with methyl alcohol production from biomass wastes --

We have been sleeping at the wheel -- again!

Alcohol -- gasification -- feeding product to fuel cells --

Three "parts" -- all well developed technology -- all ignored on this
"gasification" mail list.

So -- we need Urls on alcohol production -- Urls on the gasification of
alcohols -- urls on the fuel cells that convert this product to electrical
power.

Present state of this art -- alcohol as vehicle fuel -- is well established
in Brazil. Any Urls on their mass production processes??

Peter Singfield
Belize / Central America

"Where we sure grow a lot of sugar cane but can no longer sell the sugar"

At 08:14 PM 7/5/2001 +0900, you wrote:
>Alcohol fuel still plans and designs
>
>Final four chapters of the MOTHER EARTH Alcohol Fuel Manual uploaded
>to the Biofuels Library:
>
>Chapter 7
>How the Distillation Process Works
>Packed Column
>Perforated Plate
>Bubble Cap Plate
>Solar Stills
>The Reasoning Behind MOTHER's Still Design
>Still Operation
>Making Your First "Run"
>"Economizing" Your Alcohol Production
>
>Chapter 8
>Six-Inch Column Still Plans
>Three-Inch Column Still Plans
>Bill of Materials
>
>Chapter 9
>Two Low-cost Backyard Stills
>
>MOTHER's Waste Oil Heater - plans and instructions
>
>See Mother Earth Alcohol Fuel:
>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_motherearth/meToC.
>html
>
>See also The Manual for the Home and Farm Production of Alcohol Fuel
>by S.W. Mathewson:
>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_manual/manual_ToC.html
>
>- and other resources at the Biofuels Library:
>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library.html
>
>-
>Gasification List Archives:
>http://www.crest.org/discussion/gasification/current/
>
>Gasification List Moderator:
>Tom Reed, Biomass Energy Foundation, Reedtb2@cs.com
>www.webpan.com/BEF
>
>Sponsor the Gasification List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html
>-
>Other Gasification Events and Information:
>http://www.fsec.ucf.edu/bioam/
>http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml
>http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
>
>

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From snkm at btl.net Tue Jul 10 10:39:41 2001
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:28 2004
Subject: GAS-L: First search reults
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20010710083148.00a244f0@wgs1.btl.net>

Well -- look what pops up!!

(As in -- "Now -- a message from our sponsor")

Peter / Belize

To: BIOENERGY <bioenergy@crest.org>, "Walt, Rob" <robbcpc@aol.com>
Subject: Alcohol-fuelled cars lose their fizz in Brazil
From: Thomas Reed <REEDTB@compuserve.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 17:27:09 -0400
Cc: GASIFICATION <gasification@crest.org>
Sender: owner-bioenergy@crest.org

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----

Tom Miles et al:

Thanks for the Brazil ethanol update (below). Brazil has been an ideal
place to study the pros and cons of ethanol-gasoline (gasohol). Lots of
both in your update.

As I said in 1974, methanol, which one can make from ANY biomass by
gasification, (MSW, stover, sawdust, ...) still makes most sense as the
clean liquid fuel from biomass. (And Dimethyl ether for the liquefiable
fuel to replace propane). We (Graboski-Reed) solved the gasisfication at
SERI/NREL 1980-88. Still to be solved economically is cheap, reliable high
pressure feeding to gasifiers (see Tom Miles Engineering) since current
catalysts operate best at pressure.

So, the sooner the naive farmer loses subsidies on ethanol from corn, the
sooner he'll turn to a more productive use for what he is now throwing
away, and the sooner we can put research money into gasification now
(still) trying to get acid or enzymes to digest cellulose economically.

Onward.... TOM REED
~~~~
>Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 09:37:51 -0500 (EST)
>From: "David W. Swim" <dwswim@cais.com>

>Alcohol-fuelled cars lose their fizz in Brazil
>
>LONDON, April 1 (Reuters) - Alcohol-fuelled cars may become a collector's
>item if Brazil fails to overcome the headache induced by this 1970's
>hangover.
>
>As government incentives have fallen away so too has the demand for the
>cars designed to run on pure alcohol, a renewable fuel produced from sugar
>cane.
>
>``Perhaps 100 years in the future, the decision to reduce government
>incentives and subsidies on an alternative fuel will not be seen as too
>clever given that oil prices are on the rise again,'' warned Chris Pack,
>chief analyst at commodity house Czarnikow.
>
>Created after the 1970's oil crisis which sent petrol prices rocketing,
>Brazil's Alcohol Program seemed a good idea when Latin America's largest
>country had few oil reserves of its own.
>
>But lower world petrol prices and the discovery of oil off Brazil's shores
>has led to a decline in the government's fervour for sugar cane fuel and
>incentives were gradually phased out, despite its friendlier environmental
>profile.
>
>Nigel Burt from automotive design company Ricardo Consulting Engineers Ltd
>in the south of England said the environmental benefits of using alcohol,
>either pure or in a mixture, as an automotive fuel were twofold.
>
>``Burning fossil fuels such as gasoline produces CO2 (carbon-dioxide).
>Using alcohol produced from sugar cane benefits the environment since the
>crop absorbs CO2, the principle greenhouse gas,'' Burt said.
>
>Secondly, an alcohol/gasoline mixture can reduce harmful emissions
>released into the atmosphere in the exhaust, although there is an increase
>in emission of aldehydes, which are irritants.
>
>``Particularly in Brazil, where cars are kept for much longer, there are a
>large number of older cars in use without catalysts. Running these on an
>alcohol/gasoline mixture would have the effect of making the engine run
>leaner, reducing the amount of hydrocarbons and carbon monoxide
>produced,'' Burt said.
>
>Modern cars benefit for the same reasons, but only during the start-up
>period when the catalyst is cold which, however, is when about 80 percent
>of hydrocarbons produced by modern cars are emitted, he said.
>
>Though the price of hydrous alcohol is supported by the government at 15
>percent less than gasoline, the Brasilian Association of Automobile
>Engineering (AEA) said it used to be 45 percent less.
>
>``What this means is it is now more expensive to burn alcohol than
>gasoline, given that alcohol consumption is higher than gasoline,'' said
>AEA's President Henry Joseph.
>
>AEA figures show the proportion of alcohol-fuelled cars sold annually in
>Brazil since 1980 has plummeted to 0.07 percent last year from a peak of
>almost 85 percent in 1985 with only one of the four big vehicle
>manufacturers in Brazil -- Volkswagen (VOWG.F) -- still making the range.
>

>``An increasing number of the now elderly cars which burn pure alcohol as
>a fuel are being scrapped,'' said a report by German analyst group F.O.
>Licht.
>
>Licht said many of these cars are now 15 years old and between 250,000 and
>300,000 were scrapped last year.
>
>Although the government maintains a ``green'' fleet of cars which uses
>only hydrous ethanol, its impact on the ever-increasing lakes of surplus
>alcohol is minimal.
>
>There is however some light at the end of the tunnel as demand is growing
>for ethanol mixed with gasoline -- anhydrous alcohol -- which in Brazil
>has been fixed at 22 percent (ethanol) since 1982. F.O. Licht put demand
>for anhydrous alcohol at 4.7 billion litres last year from 1.7 billion
>litres in 1989, but analysts are uncertain whether demand for this mixture
>will be enough to soak up the excess alcohol production.
>
>``Even if vehicle sales remain at close to recent levels, it would take 15
>years for demand for anhydrous alcohol to absorb all the alcohol now

>produced,'' Licht said.
>
>The fate of the alcohol industry and car are linked and though many
>alternatives have been suggested the government has taken little action so
>far.
>
>``The future of alcohol-fuelled cars depends entirely on government
>incentives. If they are scrapped totally it is a real problem,'' said
>Lindsay Jolly, an analyst with the International Sugar Organisation.
>
>The introduction of a ``green'' tax on less ecologically-friendly fuels
>and lower or no taxes on alcohol-fuelled cars (at present five percent
>less than normal gasoline-burning cars) are possibilities.
>
>The government could also decide to increase its fleet of alcohol-powered
>cars, estimated at some 3.6 million vehicles, of which 2.5 million are
>more than 10 years old.
>
>``Increasing the size of the government's fleet would be a mere drop in
>the ocean and a short-term view,'' said Czarnikow's Pack.
>
>The AEA's President Henry Joseph remains however optimistic about the
>future of alcohol-powered cars.
>
>``Yes, I believe they will exist in 10 years. Probably, the Brazilian
>Government will decide to give some incentives to alcohol vehicles
>destined for specific uses (government vehicles, taxis, rental cars etc),
>just to keep the alcohol fleet size to justify the current alcohol
>production and await international developments.''
>
>=====================================================================
>David W. SWIM ----------------------------------- <dwswim@cais.com>
> Westgate - McLean - Fairfax - Virginia - United States of America
> http://members.aol.com/dwswim/index.html
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Technical writing for the Information Technology industry
Latin American Trade Council of Oregon P.O. Box 9
info@latco.org Lake Oswego, Oregon
97034-0009 EUA
http://www.latco.org Tel 503-699-0646 Fax 503-699-0528

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----

Follow-Ups:
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From snkm at btl.net Tue Jul 10 22:19:30 2001
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:28 2004
Subject: GAS-L: dual-fuel concept for 95% subbing gas for diesel fuel
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20010710200343.00a32c40@wgs1.btl.net>

No Url for this -- just found while searching fuel cell stuff -- but for
those interested -- they can search the rest.

Might well be applicable to producer gas??

Peter / Belize

Vinyard Engine Systems Inc. is developing the electronically controlled
Vesi-RANGER (Revised Approach to Natural Gas Engine Retrofit) System. It is
a dual-fuel concept allowing up to 95% substitution of natural gas for
diesel fuel. This is a "bolt-on" system for converting diesel engines to
dual-fuel natural gas operation. The retrofit equipment will be marketed as
a dealer installed kit on existing diesel gensets and as an optional
package for new diesel gensets.

Diesel gensets could be retrofitted to operate on natural gas while
retaining full diesel back-up power capability. A new electronic control
system and advanced combustion technology are expected to increase engine
efficiency, reduce emissions and lower operating costs for gensets ranging
from 80 to 2,000 kW.

Retrofittable technology allows one-third the capital cost, plus one-third
the operating cost of conventional gaseous-fueled options. An upfit cost of
$10-$30/kW (all figures in U.S. dollars) is planned. Full rated power is
maintained. Reduced maintenance and a field upfit capability open a new
market previously not available to gas gensets. The system operates on low
gas supply pressures (less that 5 psi) for low-cost installation.

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From keith at journeytoforever.org Tue Jul 10 23:50:51 2001
From: keith at journeytoforever.org (Keith Addison)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:28 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Alcohol fuel still plans and designs
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20010710080535.00a1c920@wgs1.btl.net>
Message-ID: <v04210102b771720d962e@[192.168.0.200]>

Hi Peter

>Hi Keith;
>
>All very interesting.
>
>But dated and small scale.

Yes, we like 'em small-scale. There's a lot of interest in stills of
this capacity. We're interested in Appropriate Technology and local
self-reliance, especially in rural areas, and small fits well. Not
very interested in mass-production. As for dated, well, it depends on
your point of view. I'm not sure that anything's dated, really, or
not if that means "obsolete". Slide rules are dated, but they work
well, last well, they don't need batteries, and making them and
disposing of dead ones doesn't cause a lot of pollution.

>Do you, or anyone else, have any urls regarding Brazil's endeavors at
>commercial levels in production of alcohol from sugar cane??
>
>I remember hearing that Brazil had almost replaced gasoline for vehicles
>with ethyl alcohol produced from sugar cane.

I could give you a bunch of urls that say it's been a raging success,
and another bunch that say it's a failure, a one-off that wouldn't
work anywhere else and so on; some that claim it's increased hunger
and poverty, others that claim the opposite. Very confused. I reckon
it needs a thorough, on-the-ground investigation by a dogged person
with the time and the budget, a hard head and a lot of scepticism,
who's not afraid of getting his shoes dirty.

>Surely -- there must be some gems of interest out there regarding real time
>-- not dream time -- applications of this technology??
>
>Why reinvent the wheel?? Is it not simple to find one already in existence
>and apply it?

Yes, but then people say it's dated, and small scale! :-)

Best

Keith Addison

<snip>

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From snkm at btl.net Wed Jul 11 01:09:50 2001
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:28 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Alcohol fuel cell - math modeling a cane field process
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20010710230454.00a40380@wgs1.btl.net>

Gasifier listers -- this is a cross posting from the Belize Culture Mail
list -- a sort of culmination of a thread regarding being energy
independent should the big crash come.

Figure it might be enlightening as a practical example of how much we take
for granted out good life styles.

Since this is the end of a thread -- more than a few blank spaces in the
subject matter -- but I know you guys are good at filling in blank spaces
(and you women as well)

It certainly makes that old saying come to life.

United we stand -- divided we fall.

As in what you read below would be a humongous task for one man -- but
quite easy for one village.

And oh -- "Balche" wine is a traditional brew made from fermented cane
liquor -- great medicinal properties -- and a pleasant relaxation agent as
well. After reading this over -- I see I would be much furhter ahead to
simply double my Balche production per year so I could stay so "relaxed" I
would not need worry about having electrical power, or driving around
anywhere. I have been making Balche for years now. Probably the best
solution is sell the wine and keep buying grid power and gasoline with the
profits.

Peter / Belize

*******************************

Abstract:

How to be energy self sufficient in Belize using a cane field -- a machete
-- and a Volks Rabbit car.

********************************

OK Ray -- regarding your quest for a lot of H2 -- your considered "perfect"
fuel to be energy self independent. Here is one way you could make it.

Goto:

http://www.plugpower.com/technology/systemcomponent.cfm

There you will see the parts breakdown and functions of the Plug-Power device.

Use this part to make your H2 -- it is called a reformer.

"The fuel processor portion of a fuel cell system has two operating
components: the fuel reformer and the carbon monoxide (CO) cleanup unit.
The fuel reformer processes a hydrocarbon fuel, such as natural gas, into a
hydrogen-rich gas known as reformate. Reformate contains heavy
concentrations of CO so a CO cleanup system is applied to reduce the CO
concentrations to acceptable levels (under 50 ppm)."

"Plug Power's fuel cells will employ high performance fuel processors that
consistently produce the highest concentrations of H2 at the lowest levels
of CO."

*************************

You can tune this to "digest" many fuels and gasses.

In this case -- say ethanol -- from sugar cane.

But you could also partially combust woody biomasses (such as bagasse or
firewood) in a "Gasifier" and feed that product to the reformer -- getting
your hydrogen.

Throw the rest of this machine away -- as you are not ready for fuel cell
technology yet -- and trust running a piston engine on H2 instead.

Course -- you could always run the piston engine directly on the gasifier
product -- or directly on the ethanol -- but you said H2 -- right!!

For me -- I'd stick with the fuel cell and get me some of that 40% efficiency.

And also -- all the hot water I'll ever want! (Or better -- the heat I need
to run my still -- vacuum distillation of course)

Ethanol is around 21,336 BTU per liter.

So 40% comes out as electrical power = 8534 btu per liter "net"

That is equal to 2.5 kwh

Say each ton of cane gives 80 liters (as reffed in the Brazil article) --
that gives 120 kwh.

For using a lot of power -- like I do -- 14 kwh per day.

Each ton of cane will supply my power needs for 8.57 days.

365 days/ 8.57 = 42.3 tons of cane per year.

I should be able to raise that much on one acre of cane here in Xaibe area.

So folks -- using modern fuel cell technology -- one acre of cane processed
per year will supply all my electrical power needs.

Earlier -- we saw how one acre of cane would supply all the ethanol
required to run my volks rabbit for 27,000 miles.

But I believe I do much less than 13,500 miles per year these days -- so
another 1/2 acre.

So for 1.5 acres of sugarcane I have all my transport needs and my
electrical power requirements -- for ever and one day.

Now -- say I can't afford the 10,000 US to get that nice "Plug Power" fuel
cell setup -- if I simply burned that alcohol in a genset -- I would need
double that figure (20% instead of 40% efficiency) -- thus 2.5 acres of
cane per year.

Figuring the cane season as 6 months per year -- and working out how much I
would have to produce per week.

6 months: 180/7 = 25.7 weeks. So we will say 26 weeks.

I must produce a total of 200 liters of alcohol during that period (the
engine genset example -- not the fuel cell)

So -- 200/26 = 7.7 gallons of distillate per week.

Or -- process an average of 106 tons per year/26 weeks = 4 tons per week.

I would probably be chopping two Volks Rabbit loads per day

8000lb/7 = 1142 lb per day -- or 571 lbs per trip.

A trip is driving to my cane field and loading my car with 600 lbs -- so
twice before breakfast -- everyday -- including Sundays.

Hey -- I chop and process 200 lbs of cane per day when I make my Balche
wine from cane -- for 8 days. One 600 pound load every 3 days

Takes about one hour to chop, load, drive a mile and unload 600 lbs from
the Rabbit. So now -- two hours per day. Get up at 5 am -- hit the field at
day break -- finished by 8 am.

Then the processing -- I extract the liquor by boiling. We chop the cane to
11 in lengths and split once -- jam the big pressure cooker -- fill with
water and boil for 3 hours to make balche. Process 40 lbs per batch -- so
1200 lbs would be impossible to process with that equipment.

Not to worry -- I have already designed a nice reflux extraction unit that
would do that amount per day. Made up from some new butane gas tanks --
welded end to end. By the way - making Balche wine -- that 200 lbs makes 5
* 4 gallon "extractions" -- or 20 gallons of wine liquor per day. I use a
125 gallon plastic cistern as the fermenting vessel. Takes me 5 days of 18
hours per day to fill that cistern.

1000 lbs of cane.

Takes 30 days to ferment to at least 14%. 14% of 125 = 17.5 gallons times
two = 35 gallons per ton of 100% alcohol -- 132 liters --

Can't be -- so probably I am using more than 1000 lbs of cane per cistern
batch -- probably closer to 50 lbs per pot -- but somewhere in that ball park.

Still -- you all should now have a rough idea what is involved in being
energy independent by the sweat of one's brow and elbow grease??

To tell you the truth -- it the economy dropped out and I had to roll my
own power and fuel -- I would be using a lot less power -- and a lot less
fuel!!

Hey -- where would I find the time to drive around or use the electrical
power? I'd be working making energy round the clock!

There you go folks -- how to be energy self dependent in Belize -- and stay
"fit" even if the rest of the world falls over and dies!

Now -- please remember -- I have a household here -- and would not be doing
all this chopping and processing alone. And I would have it much easier the
other six months per year.

Anymore questions Ray??

No matter which way you go at it Ray -- it will always take "work" using
biomass.

If your lazy -- better go with the windmill and solar panels -- but make
sure the world stays standing up -- because you will need a steady income
to pay for it all -- just the batteries -- for your house and your
"golf-cart" -- and don't even think of getting 13500 miles per year at 60
mph with a golf cart.

So -- what is it going to be?

How about a bicycle and candles and cooking over a wood fire hearth?

Peter Singfield -- reporting on being self sustainable for all energy needs
in Belize, Central America.

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From snkm at btl.net Wed Jul 11 02:16:55 2001
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:28 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Alcohol fuel still plans and designs
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20010711001157.009f8b40@wgs1.btl.net>

Hi Keith;

By now you have in hand my report regarding a one day whirl-wind
investigation of this energy technology.

That being -- should the economy melt down -- and I have to become energy
self sufficient -- rather than burn alcohol -- I have decided to make more
wine so I will stay so relaxed I do not need electrical power or a
motorized convenience.

You see -- I do have a lot of hands on experience in fermenting cane.
Especially all the labor involved -- when you do it by "hand".

It is orders easier to ferment enough cane wine to keep yourself in a state
of near oblivion on a continuous basis that it is to produce the equivalent
power required for a normally sober life style -- plus -- you need not get
involved with distilling.

Ergo -- my conclusion -- this is one area of biomass energy better left to
organized industrial productions methods -- where scale of economics allows
a higher level of mechanization to lighten to burden.

I checked my "light-bill" and I do use and average of 14 kwh per day.

For here -- that is a large consumption for a private dwelling.

What is the normal consumption for someone living in Canada or the US??

I read that every 1 mwe supply is considered enough for 100 "normal"
households in the US.

So that would be 10 kw per house per hour?? 240 kwh per day -- wow!! Sure
would hate to have to cut and process the sugar cane for all of that --
even using a 40% efficient fuel cell!!

Can you grasp the point I am making??

Once we lose "cheap" power -- we are all going to be in deep doo-doo and
I'd better start making more cane wine!

I produce 400 liters of 14% wine per batch. If I drank 2 liters per day --
I would not know if the world ended or not -- and would care less if it did
-- and that would still last me 200 days!

If I distilled it for "fuel" I would net 28 liters (anhydrous)

At a net of 2.5 kwh per liter (40% efficiency fuel cell) and my piddling 14
kwh per day consumption -- 28 * 2.5/14 = 5 days of "power".

No sir -- believe if it ever comes to this -- I'd prefer drinking the 2
liters per day and the H*ll with the rest of the world!

We got to do better than that!!

OK listers -- in the name of saving me from becoming a wino --

What do you think the chances are of feeding the product of a gasifier to
the Plug Power device - our present case example at:

http://www.plugpower.com/

Let's see --

Say a modest 70% gasifier efficiency.

40% * 70% = 28% over all (plus a lot of usable heat for hot baths and showers)

And say wood at 7500 btu per pound -- or say 2.2 kwh per pound.

Times 28% (2.2*.28) = .616 kwh per pound of wood.

14 kwh per day: 14/.616 = 22.23 pound of dry wood per day.

Now that I could "live" with!!

Should not take me more than 30 minutes per day to take a walk and carry
back 25 lbs of dry wood. Probably another 30 minute to cut it up into
properly sized pieces with a small hand saw -- fill the hopper -- and sit
under the fan in front of the computer for the rest of the day --

I can bicycle to town -- and for hauling material around -- get a horse and
a cart.

My conclusions -- at this point -- alcohol on a small scale will not beat
gasifying biomass -- or combusting biomass in a small butane cycle boiler
feeding a uniflow engined genset.

Course -- I am certainly open to being proven wrong.

In the meantime -- I'll keep drinking my gasohol production -- thank-you.

Actually -- I was more curious regarding what to do with our failing sugar
industry here.

Peter

At 12:56 PM 7/11/2001 +0900, Keith Addison wrote:
>Hi Peter
>
>>Hi Keith;
>>
>>All very interesting.
>>
>>But dated and small scale.
>
>Yes, we like 'em small-scale. There's a lot of interest in stills of
>this capacity. We're interested in Appropriate Technology and local
>self-reliance, especially in rural areas, and small fits well. Not
>very interested in mass-production. As for dated, well, it depends on
>your point of view. I'm not sure that anything's dated, really, or
>not if that means "obsolete". Slide rules are dated, but they work
>well, last well, they don't need batteries, and making them and
>disposing of dead ones doesn't cause a lot of pollution.
>
>>Do you, or anyone else, have any urls regarding Brazil's endeavors at
>>commercial levels in production of alcohol from sugar cane??
>>
>>I remember hearing that Brazil had almost replaced gasoline for vehicles
>>with ethyl alcohol produced from sugar cane.
>
>I could give you a bunch of urls that say it's been a raging success,
>and another bunch that say it's a failure, a one-off that wouldn't
>work anywhere else and so on; some that claim it's increased hunger
>and poverty, others that claim the opposite. Very confused. I reckon
>it needs a thorough, on-the-ground investigation by a dogged person
>with the time and the budget, a hard head and a lot of scepticism,
>who's not afraid of getting his shoes dirty.
>
>>Surely -- there must be some gems of interest out there regarding real time
>>-- not dream time -- applications of this technology??
>>
>>Why reinvent the wheel?? Is it not simple to find one already in existence
>>and apply it?
>
>Yes, but then people say it's dated, and small scale! :-)
>
>Best
>
>Keith Addison
>
><snip>
>
>
>-
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>
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>www.webpan.com/BEF
>
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>-
>Other Gasification Events and Information:
>http://www.fsec.ucf.edu/bioam/
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>http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
>
>

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From snkm at btl.net Wed Jul 11 02:17:39 2001
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:28 2004
Subject: GAS-L: dual-fuel concept for 95% subbing gas for diesel fuel
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20010711000922.008f46d0@wgs1.btl.net>

At 10:54 PM 7/10/2001 EDT, you wrote:
>In a message dated 7/10/2001 9:18:25 PM Central Daylight Time, snkm@btl.net
>writes:
>
><< It is
> a dual-fuel concept allowing up to 95% substitution of natural gas for
> diesel fuel. >>
>
> Make some assumptions about the costs of diesel fuel and natural gas and
see
>how this comes out in an economics evaluation. Do you have access to that
>information?
>

will not work with producer gas???

and then -- those Wartsilas getting better than 41% on crude oil.

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From keith at journeytoforever.org Wed Jul 11 04:48:42 2001
From: keith at journeytoforever.org (Keith Addison)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:28 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Alcohol fuel still plans and designs
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20010711001157.009f8b40@wgs1.btl.net>
Message-ID: <v04210100b771c4a65f0e@[192.168.0.200]>

Bon appetit, Peter.

>Hi Keith;
>
>By now you have in hand my report regarding a one day whirl-wind

<snip>

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From thomas at biopilze.de Wed Jul 11 06:26:43 2001
From: thomas at biopilze.de (Thomas Ziegler)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:28 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Alcohol fuel still plans and designs
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20010710080535.00a1c920@wgs1.btl.net>
Message-ID: <3B4C2944.AE66E46F@biopilze.de>

to keith, peter...
i read the journey to forever / mothernatures pages about stills
carefully and remember 20 years ago there was a state funded trial in
our village on still with cereals, potatoes etc nearby munich/ bavaria
to power their agricultural engines...
just my opinion:
its input is too high regarding the possible output (efficiency low
-except you succeed to use wood, fibres to gain alcohol...) and you
often use food as fuel!! to generate alcohol, suppose is viable only in
regions wehere is huge surplus...
sure woodgas is dirtier but more energy-efficient..., thomas
--
der kleine deutsche oeko-pilz-anbauer \
the small german organic mushroomer http://www.biopilze.de/wir.htm
le petit eco - champignoneur allemand /

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From english at adan.kingston.net Wed Jul 11 06:37:08 2001
From: english at adan.kingston.net (*.English)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:28 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Oxygen sensor-plc
In-Reply-To: <200107110259.WAA13430@adan.kingston.net>
Message-ID: <200107111034.GAA27522@adan.kingston.net>

Hello,
I am still unsure what simple, KISS, path you are suggesting. Anyhow, I spent the
evening exploring the effect of variable voltage at the heater input and stack gas
temperature, to the sensor output. With a propane burner set at a fixed rate with two
excess air levels, 8% and 12% CO2 in the stack, switching back and forth between
12.8 and 12.5 volts, produced no noticeable, or in my view, significant change in
sensor output. Even increasing the fuel rate while maintaining excess air levels to
increase stack temperature near the sensor by 100C to 450C, yielded less than a 2
mV change at about 12%CO2 and 30mV sensor output. Unpluging the heater element
produces a rapid and greater than 100% change in mV output at these levels.

I would agree that the rapid rise in sensor output at low or no excess air levels makes
for easy control feedback. However limiting excess air at the other end still seems to
be viable goal limited by instrument resolution.

Regards, Alex

Alex English
RR 2 Odessa Ontario
Canada K0H 2H0
Tel 1-613-386-1927
Fax 1-613-386-1211

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From keith at journeytoforever.org Wed Jul 11 07:36:39 2001
From: keith at journeytoforever.org (Keith Addison)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:28 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Alcohol fuel still plans and designs
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20010710080535.00a1c920@wgs1.btl.net>
Message-ID: <v04210100b771e8bf6fc5@[192.168.0.200]>

Hello Thomas

>to keith, peter...
>i read the journey to forever / mothernatures pages about stills
>carefully and remember 20 years ago there was a state funded trial in
>our village on still with cereals, potatoes etc nearby munich/ bavaria
>to power their agricultural engines...
>just my opinion:
>its input is too high regarding the possible output (efficiency low
>-except you succeed to use wood, fibres to gain alcohol...)

This is a myth Thomas, please see below. Ethanol from cellulose still
has some way to travel for truly efficient processes IMHO.

"Wood-Ethanol Report: Technology Review", Environment Canada 1999 --
good overview of the problem and the current solutions on offer.
http://www.pyr.ec.gc.ca/ep/wet/section16.html

>and you
>often use food as fuel!!

Another myth, I'm afraid - below.

>to generate alcohol, suppose is viable only in
>regions wehere is huge surplus...
>sure woodgas is dirtier but more energy-efficient..., thomas
>--
>der kleine deutsche oeko-pilz-anbauer \
>the small german organic mushroomer http://www.biopilze.de/wir.htm
>le petit eco - champignoneur allemand /

http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html#foodorfuel
Food or Fuel?
A common objection to biomass energy production is that it could
divert agricultural production away from food crops in a hungry world
-- even leading to mass starvation in the poor countries.

True or not? Not true: at best it's an oversimplification of a
complex issue. It just doesn't work that way, and neither does hunger.

[more]

http://journeytoforever.org/ethanol_energy.html
Is ethanol energy-efficient?

One of the most controversial issues relating to ethanol is the
question of what environmentalists call the "net energy" of ethanol
production. Simply put, is more energy used to grow and process the
raw material into ethanol than is contained in the ethanol itself?

[more]

There's another point here that's widely missed. Ethanol also has an
important role in biodiesel production: ethyl esters biodiesel is
cleaner and more rational than methyl esters biodiesel made with
methanol, which, unlike ethanol, is toxic, mostly derived from fossil
fuels, and you can't easily make it yourself.

At any rate, very many people are making their own fuel ethanol on a
small scale, more all the time, all over the world. It especially
makes sense on-farm, where none of the energy-in vs energy-out
scenarios make a lot of sense. A lot of ethanol is also being made
from waste products, which never seem to get calculated.

Best wishes

Keith Addison

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From tombreed at home.com Wed Jul 11 09:24:39 2001
From: tombreed at home.com (Thomas Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:28 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Gasification and pyrolysis in Japan
In-Reply-To: <01C10864.59437730.markus@asco.co.nz>
Message-ID: <009b01c10a0b$affe9660$18e5b618@lakwod3.co.home.com>

Dear Joseph Fonio et al:

The Purox MSW slagging oxygen gasification process, developed 1970-80 at
Union Carbide was 20-40 years ahead of its time. Two gasifiers of 100
tons/day operated from 1981 to 1997 in Showa Denko, Japan, producing a good
synthesis gas (which was unfortunately flared for political reasons).

This is covered in our "Survey of Biomass Gasification - 2001" available
from the BEF Press (www.woodgas.com).

It doesn't pay to be too far ahead of the times.

Yours truly, TOM REED

Dr. Thomas Reed
The Biomass Energy Foundation
1810 Smith Rd., Golden, CO 80401
303 278 0558; tombreed@home.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph FONIO" <joseph.fonio@oser.net>
To: <markus@asco.co.nz>; <gasification@crest.org>
Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2001 7:42 AM
Subject: GAS-L: Gasification and pyrolysis in Japan

> Has anyone info about use of gasification and pyrolysis/thermolysis of
waste
> (any kind of waste, from wood waste to hazardous waste) in Japan ?
>
> I have been told that they have a very special context since almost 75% of
> their waste is treated by incineration. With the recent changing of the
laws
> for atmospheric pollutants limitations, there should be a large market for
> innovative thermal technologies for waste treatment.
>
> Any information about such realisations in Japan will be most welcomed.
>
> Best regards.
>
> Joseph Fonio
>
> > -
> > Gasification List Archives:
> > http://www.crest.org/discussion/gasification/current/
> >
> > Gasification List Moderator:
> > Tom Reed, Biomass Energy Foundation, Reedtb2@cs.com
> > www.webpan.com/BEF
> >
> > Sponsor the Gasification List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html
> > -
> > Other Gasification Events and Information:
> > http://www.fsec.ucf.edu/bioam/
> > http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml
> > http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
> >
>
>
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>
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> www.webpan.com/BEF
>
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> -
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>

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From joseph.fonio at oser.net Wed Jul 11 09:49:51 2001
From: joseph.fonio at oser.net (Joseph FONIO)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:28 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Gasification and pyrolysis in Japan
In-Reply-To: <01C10864.59437730.markus@asco.co.nz>
Message-ID: <003401c10a10$fb984760$0f0aa8c0@wanadoo.fr>

Thank you very much. You are right, I hadn't found it in my volume of
"Survey of Biomass Gasification 2000". I have found some other of waste
gasification or pyrolysis references from steel manufacturers like Nippon
Steel, Kawasaki Steel, Kobe Steel, or NKK or Sumitomo.

But my information on this systems is very short. Do you know more about it
? It seems that thermal treatment of waste in Japan is mainly the work of
steel manufacturers. It also seems that most of these companies use licenced
technology of european or american societies.

Any comment on this subject will be most welcomed.

Best regards

Joseph Fonio

> Dear Joseph Fonio et al:
>
> The Purox MSW slagging oxygen gasification process, developed 1970-80 at
> Union Carbide was 20-40 years ahead of its time. Two gasifiers of 100
> tons/day operated from 1981 to 1997 in Showa Denko, Japan, producing a
good
> synthesis gas (which was unfortunately flared for political reasons).
>
> This is covered in our "Survey of Biomass Gasification - 2001" available
> from the BEF Press (www.woodgas.com).
>
> It doesn't pay to be too far ahead of the times.
>
> Yours truly, TOM REED
>
>
> Dr. Thomas Reed
> The Biomass Energy Foundation
> 1810 Smith Rd., Golden, CO 80401
> 303 278 0558; tombreed@home.com
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Joseph FONIO" <joseph.fonio@oser.net>
> To: <markus@asco.co.nz>; <gasification@crest.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2001 7:42 AM
> Subject: GAS-L: Gasification and pyrolysis in Japan
>
>
> > Has anyone info about use of gasification and pyrolysis/thermolysis of
> waste
> > (any kind of waste, from wood waste to hazardous waste) in Japan ?
> >
> > I have been told that they have a very special context since almost 75%
of
> > their waste is treated by incineration. With the recent changing of the
> laws
> > for atmospheric pollutants limitations, there should be a large market
for
> > innovative thermal technologies for waste treatment.
> >
> > Any information about such realisations in Japan will be most welcomed.
> >
> > Best regards.
> >
> > Joseph Fonio
> >
> > > -
> > > Gasification List Archives:
> > > http://www.crest.org/discussion/gasification/current/
> > >
> > > Gasification List Moderator:
> > > Tom Reed, Biomass Energy Foundation, Reedtb2@cs.com
> > > www.webpan.com/BEF
> > >
> > > Sponsor the Gasification List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html
> > > -
> > > Other Gasification Events and Information:
> > > http://www.fsec.ucf.edu/bioam/
> > > http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml
> > > http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
> > >
> >
> >
> > -
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> > http://www.crest.org/discussion/gasification/current/
> >
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> >
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> > -
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> >
>
>
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>
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> www.webpan.com/BEF
>
> Sponsor the Gasification List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html
> -
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> http://www.fsec.ucf.edu/bioam/
> http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml
> http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
>

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From snkm at btl.net Wed Jul 11 10:37:25 2001
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:28 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Alcohol fuel still plans and designs
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20010711081306.00a0eba0@wgs1.btl.net>

At 07:06 AM 7/11/2001 EDT, you wrote:
>In a message dated 7/11/2001 1:15:38 AM Central Daylight Time, snkm@btl.net
>writes:
>
><< Actually -- I was more curious regarding what to do with our failing sugar
> industry here.
> >>
>
>So now you are back to the industrial size plant idea?

Never left it. We have a sugar industry here subsidized by a ridiculously
high British program that ends in 2006 ($550US/t). After which point Belize
will most assuredly be out of the sugar manufacturing industry.

We import and incredible amount of petroleum products for our small country.

So - one imagines there may be potential in doing as Brazil did.

>Ethanol and methane
>seem to be the competitors for sugar and bagasse.

Not cost effective as yet. According to my gonzo math modeling -- we would
be far ahead turning the cane fields into tree farms and setting up a
biomass power plant.

Probably -- gasify -- to run Wartsilas (or equivalent) and bleed off
product gas to synthesize alcohol.

At that scale of economics one can get away with this.

For example -- cane becomes very "chemical" intensive to grow in sufficient
yields -- forest/bush -- no.

We have a lot of hard calls to make in the near future -- and no
administration even interested in considering the "situation".

Typical for small 3rd world countries.

I have appended an old message from Tom Taylor regarding the above. Tom
makes economic solutions to all the above. The following in regards to
crops. But he also does a great job in woody biomasses.

You know -- if you take an old 300 PSI bagasse boiler and hook that to an
Ormat you immediately double electrical output!

So -- let's not ignore combustion when capital funding is in short supply.

It is not so clear cut yet ---

The fast way we can salvage part of this future shut down is simply to burn
the "brush" the cane fields will turn into in the old bagasse boilers --
installing an Ormat.

By the way -- I have a place that will build the design I am presently
working up -- for a 5 kwh power plant -- 30% plus efficiencies -- direct
combustion -- anything that burns -- from wood to car tires.

And the 30% is a safe low estimate.

It also would pull out another 30% using the waste heat from a fuel cell.

Peter

>
>Cornelius A. Van Milligen
>Kentucky Enrichment Inc.
>byproduct processors
>CAVM@AOL.com
>

Return-Path: <LINVENT@aol.com>
From: LINVENT@aol.com
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 17:04:49 EDT
Subject: AG development
To: snkm@btl.net

Peter,
I am sending this directly to you relating to ag development. My other
hat besides gasification and a variety of other scientific endeavors is that
of agricultural development.
In answering your question about whole plant use for fuel, wheat straw is
more valuable as a fuel than the grain from the plant. Especially if you
convert it to liquid fuels through a process of gasification/catalysis.
We at Agronics have developed a phenomonally successful nutritional
program which has increased soil and plant productivity even in the rain
forests of Costa Rica and the salty beach soils of Peru. The key is strong
mineralization of the soil and use of an organic colloid mined humus which
has significantly higher cation exchange and other properties.
You may wish to look us up on agronicsinc.com.
There is much more information available and we can forward it to you if
you are interested in this area of endeavor. Some of the fast growing trees
used for biomass power or other applications will double growth on our
program.
Thermogenics has access to the best conversion technology for production
of liquid fuels for transportation such as ethanol, diesel, DME, and
gasoline. We have made the correct inroads for this technology.
Sincerely,

Tom Taylor
President, Agronics Inc.
President, Thermogenics Inc.

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From snkm at btl.net Wed Jul 11 10:38:23 2001
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:28 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Alcohol fuel
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20010711081228.00a131f0@wgs1.btl.net>

At 10:14 AM 7/11/2001 +1200, you wrote:
>on 7/11/01 1:06 AM, Peter Singfield at snkm@btl.net wrote:
>
>> Do you, or anyone else, have any urls regarding Brazil's endeavors at
>> commercial levels in production of alcohol from sugar cane??
>
>Yes, I do Peter, and I can forward them if no-one else has already replied.
>

Downloaded a good amount so far -- but can always use more.

>We haven't exchanged messages for sometime, but I was delighted to read that
>you are now on the track I have held dear for a long time - biomass into
>ethanol by advanced processes able to supply clean transport fuels and
>hydrogen source for fuel cells!

Yes -- but better if can be accomplished avoiding agriculturally intensive
"food" plants. Woody biomass "bush" is the best crop for energy.

What have you got going on converting product gas to ethanol??

I would think that with all this new push in fuel cells technology -- this
aspect of "gasification" is of valid investigation.

As in one gasifier -- splitting product between direct production of
electrical power and alcohol synthesis? One big gasifier -- two product
streams --

Peter / Belize

>
>Ian Bywater
>Engenius Solutions
>Christchurch
>New Zealand
>
>

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From snkm at btl.net Wed Jul 11 10:39:22 2001
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:28 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Re: Bz-Culture: Sugar Cane Questions
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20010711082102.00982430@wgs1.btl.net>

At 07:34 AM 7/11/2001 -0400, you wrote:
>This message sent to the Bz-Culture Mailing List from "Terry Warburton"
<terry@warburton-usa.com>:
>
>Peter,
>
>are there not needs for growing cane that cost money? How many years will a
>given piece of ground grow cane with out spending money on fertilizer?

It is a very chemical intensive process if you want good yields -- not to
mention more labor.

you will see the alternative solutions in the cross postings.

>
>I have a small patch of cane growing here that I used for rabbit feed. It
>seems to grow quite nicely, without any attention what so ever. Maybe using
>the rabbit manure as fertilizer would make it almost self sustaining?
>

I still have not decided regarding small quantity production. But am siding
to growing just enough to make that excellent wine. Say 1/20 of an acre or
so.

And yes -- the Mennonites use up to 18% supplementation of sugar cane
(pulverized) in animal feeds.

>With all the worlds worries about exhausting the fossil fuel, I have always
>thought that new technologies will come along to sustain the economic growth
>of the world. Want to see some real innovation? Let the oil run out
>tomorrow, and by next week, there will be a lot of "new" ideas suddenly
>surface. Too many people depend on the world working as it is now, to let it
>go belly up.

It has gone belly up over less than this in the past though --

>
>Too bad the government of Belize has to be "in the way" of electric
>production and distribution.

While doing those wild cat searches I came across excellent examples of how
governments changed the legislation to encourage self sustainment in energy
-- specifically India and Brazil. In great detail -- one would just have to
copy these verbatim and apply them here in Belize

Was almost tempted to post these -- but why bother?? Belize would never do
anything so "intelligent" -- unless of course -- it resulted in a great
filling of pockets.

Peter

>
>Terry
>
>
>
>Thank You for using the Bz-Culture Mailing List
>To subscribe/unsubscribe send to bz-culture-request@psg.com the message:
>subscribe or unsubscribe
>Send comments to bz-culture-owner@psg.com
>

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From snkm at btl.net Wed Jul 11 10:40:22 2001
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:28 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Alcohol fuel still plans and designs
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20010711080324.00a113e0@wgs1.btl.net>

So -- short of making alcohol from product gas -- no go. Interesting.

>The 150 or so members of that list must be quietly nursing their product. :-)

Wise decision in view of the hard economics.

Peter / Belize

At 12:26 AM 7/11/2001 -0700, Tom Miles wrote:
>At 12:12 AM 7/11/01 -0500, Peter Singfield wrote:
>>What do you think the chances are of feeding the product of a gasifier to
>>the Plug Power device - our present case example at:
>>
>>http://www.plugpower.com/
>
>None. So far you need natural gas power and purity for fuel cells.
>
>Build one of Doug Willams' gasifiers and give us a short report.
>
>
>Alcohol belongs on bioconversion@crest.org which you can find at:
>
>http://www.crest.org/discussion/bioconversion/current/
>
>The 150 or so members of that list must be quietly nursing their product. :-)
>
>Tom Miles
>Thomas R Miles tmiles@trmiles.com
>T R Miles, TCI Tel 503-292-0107
>1470 SW Woodward Way Fax 503-292-2919
>Portland, OR 97225 USA
>
>

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From kchishol at fox.nstn.ca Wed Jul 11 10:41:49 2001
From: kchishol at fox.nstn.ca (Kevin Chisholm)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:28 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Alcohol fuel still plans and designs
In-Reply-To: <3B4C2944.AE66E46F@biopilze.de>
Message-ID: <NEBBLHHHOLFOEGCILKHEOEFMCOAA.kchishol@fox.nstn.ca>

Dear Thomas

An important factor to keep in mind when comparing fuels are "other
factors."

More specifically, fuels are often compared only on the basis of their "cost
per million BTU's", and this is a very wrong comparison basis. For example,
coal is far less costly than jet fuel...say $2.50 per million BTU for coal,
rather than say $15 per million BTU for JP4. So, the airlines could cut
their fuel costs to about 1/7 if they had jet planes that ran on coal!!

Some of the "other factors" that enter into a decision by the Airlines to
stick with JP4 are:

* portability
* ease of combustion
* ease of handling
* energy density
* completeness of combustion
* lack of ash
* etc..

Alcohol may be "more expensive" that coal, but we should no more favor coal
over alcohol, than we should favor coal over JP4. The fundamental problem
lies within the Accounting System: it selectively includes only some of the
costs and benefits associated with various fuels and fuel forms. Some of the
factors that are not accounted for in the evaluation of an "alcohol economy"
could include:
* use of a local feedstock
* creation of local jobs
* security from external threats
* sustainability
* low infrastructure cost (roads, pipelines, powerlines, docks)
* a forest management benefit
* etc...

One can argue that we are living in a "Fools Paradise" when we rely on
Middle East Oil; any number of things could happen that would make it
unavailable. How much per barrel is oil "worth" when you cannot buy it? Does
it not make sound economic sense to pay 'a bit of insurance" in terms of a
superficially apparently higher price for alcohol (or other such alternative
fuels) to ensure we have energy when we need it?

Kindest regards,

Kevin Chisholm

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Thomas Ziegler [mailto:thomas@biopilze.de]
> Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2001 7:24 AM
> To: Keith Addison
> Cc: gasification@crest.org
> Subject: Re: GAS-L: Alcohol fuel still plans and designs
>
>
> to keith, peter...
> i read the journey to forever / mothernatures pages about stills
> carefully and remember 20 years ago there was a state funded trial in
> our village on still with cereals, potatoes etc nearby munich/ bavaria
> to power their agricultural engines...
> just my opinion:
> its input is too high regarding the possible output (efficiency low
> -except you succeed to use wood, fibres to gain alcohol...) and you
> often use food as fuel!! to generate alcohol, suppose is viable only in
> regions wehere is huge surplus...
> sure woodgas is dirtier but more energy-efficient..., thomas
> --
> der kleine deutsche oeko-pilz-anbauer \
> the small german organic mushroomer http://www.biopilze.de/wir.htm
> le petit eco - champignoneur allemand /
>
> -
> Gasification List Archives:
> http://www.crest.org/discussion/gasification/current/
>
> Gasification List Moderator:
> Tom Reed, Biomass Energy Foundation, Reedtb2@cs.com
> www.webpan.com/BEF
>
> Sponsor the Gasification List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html
> -
> Other Gasification Events and Information:
> http://www.fsec.ucf.edu/bioam/
> http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml
> http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
>
>
>
>

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From snkm at btl.net Wed Jul 11 11:26:09 2001
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:28 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Alcohol fuel still plans and designs
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20010711091659.00982610@wgs1.btl.net>

Hi Keith;

You must experiment with fermenting the boiled liquor extract from sugar
cane -- not the pressed/expressed extract.

The boiled extract contains so much more "minerals" -- you need add nothing
-- not even yeast -- for a violent fermentation to start and run to
completion.

I mention a conservative 14% -- but if you optimize sugar levels -- it goes
16% or better.

Boiling may sound energy intensive -- but it is not in the methology I use.

"Pressure-Cooking" -- or extraction by heated, pressurized, water.

Operating at 20 Psi -- 228 F -- for 3 hours. The water does not boil. you
insulate/jacket the pot -- very little heat required to maintain temperature.

I use a bucket in a jacketed drum to get back most of my invested heat when
I transfer pots.

Mind you -- I have to look at all this from village perspective -- no
tractors -- no other machineries -- everything by hand.

If I was "allowed" a few pieces of equipment -- which I have designed --
but probably will never build -- I could really make this process fly!!

Pressurized Soxhlet extraction "tower" (steam) would extract large batches
of pulverized cane (more on that process below) automatically to the proper
sugar in liquor densities required for optimum fermentation.

True -- this would be boiling and condensing -- so energy hungry -- but I
planned to use a small refrigeration cycle power plant to condense -- and
thus extract electrical power. The fuel for this process would be the bagasse.

You can get a rough idea at:

http://www.sterlingsolar.com/engines.htm

Though the device I have in mind to build would be more efficient and simpler.

Even the heat in the hot pressurized liquor -- on exiting -- would be
recovered in this manner.

The internal pressure of this process would also look after pumping liquor
to the fermentation tanks.

Also -- heat transferring from the Soxhlet extraction process -- could
easily power the distillation process when required -- with energy still
being picked up by the refrigeration cycle motor when condensing the alcohols.

This then would be a inclosed system of great efficiency in ethanol from
cane processing.

Pulverizing cane

The Mennonites here have developed an interesting device to pulverize cane
to mix with their animal feeds -- they mix this up to 18% (by weight) with
their regular grains.

It is a Honda 10 HP belt driving a shaft with a regular lawn mower blade
attached to one end -- the pulley to the other. This blade extends past a
wooden table platform to be enclosed by an appropriate sized truck tire.
The bottom part of this tire -- extending to the bottom -- is cut out.

A 2 in square hole is cut into the side wall even with the table top.

Motor is started. Cane is pushed in a rapid manner through this hole --
cane is pulverized and extracted from bottom.

A very productive system for a minimum of machine power. Sure beats
chopping cane by machete to short lengths and then splitting by machete!

And of course -- the spent products of fermentation make a wonderful feed
supplement as well!

I try to always design for top efficiency -- in any process. We are not so
energy rich here as you folks -- but you certainly can't tell that by
looking how Belizeans live -- for them it is nothing but more waste of
energy -- year by year -- they have adopted the true North American life
style. Burn it all up today -- because tomorrow we all die!

You might catch a few real good "hints" in all the above -- good luck to
you in applying it.

Peter Singfield
Belize / Central America

At 08:42 PM 7/11/2001 +0900, you wrote:
>Hello Thomas
>
>>to keith, peter...
>>i read the journey to forever / mothernatures pages about stills
>>carefully and remember 20 years ago there was a state funded trial in
>>our village on still with cereals, potatoes etc nearby munich/ bavaria
>>to power their agricultural engines...
>>just my opinion:
>>its input is too high regarding the possible output (efficiency low
>>-except you succeed to use wood, fibres to gain alcohol...)
>
>This is a myth Thomas, please see below. Ethanol from cellulose still
>has some way to travel for truly efficient processes IMHO.
>
>"Wood-Ethanol Report: Technology Review", Environment Canada 1999 --
>good overview of the problem and the current solutions on offer.
>http://www.pyr.ec.gc.ca/ep/wet/section16.html
>
>>and you
>>often use food as fuel!!
>
>Another myth, I'm afraid - below.
>
>>to generate alcohol, suppose is viable only in
>>regions wehere is huge surplus...
>>sure woodgas is dirtier but more energy-efficient..., thomas
>>--
>>der kleine deutsche oeko-pilz-anbauer \
>>the small german organic mushroomer http://www.biopilze.de/wir.htm
>>le petit eco - champignoneur allemand /
>
>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html#foodorfuel
>Food or Fuel?
>A common objection to biomass energy production is that it could
>divert agricultural production away from food crops in a hungry world
>-- even leading to mass starvation in the poor countries.
>
>True or not? Not true: at best it's an oversimplification of a
>complex issue. It just doesn't work that way, and neither does hunger.
>
>[more]
>
>http://journeytoforever.org/ethanol_energy.html
>Is ethanol energy-efficient?
>
>One of the most controversial issues relating to ethanol is the
>question of what environmentalists call the "net energy" of ethanol
>production. Simply put, is more energy used to grow and process the
>raw material into ethanol than is contained in the ethanol itself?
>
>[more]
>
>There's another point here that's widely missed. Ethanol also has an
>important role in biodiesel production: ethyl esters biodiesel is
>cleaner and more rational than methyl esters biodiesel made with
>methanol, which, unlike ethanol, is toxic, mostly derived from fossil
>fuels, and you can't easily make it yourself.
>
>At any rate, very many people are making their own fuel ethanol on a
>small scale, more all the time, all over the world. It especially
>makes sense on-farm, where none of the energy-in vs energy-out
>scenarios make a lot of sense. A lot of ethanol is also being made
>from waste products, which never seem to get calculated.
>
>Best wishes
>
>Keith Addison
>
>
>-
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>http://www.crest.org/discussion/gasification/current/
>
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>www.webpan.com/BEF
>
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>-
>Other Gasification Events and Information:
>http://www.fsec.ucf.edu/bioam/
>http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml
>http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
>
>

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From LINVENT at aol.com Wed Jul 11 12:33:17 2001
From: LINVENT at aol.com (LINVENT@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:29 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Alcohol fuel still plans and designs
Message-ID: <e5.8d80d1c.287dd91f@aol.com>

Dear Peter & group,
There is a lot of activity by Archer Daniels Midland to corner the
alcohol production markets. They may indeed buy up the sugar cane operations
and use them for ethanol production. Their political acumen and ability to
bend markets in their direction is unparalleled. They may also have some
other grand plan besides ethanol per se.
Production of proteins, amino acids and other higher valued products
would be an opportunity with the existing ethanol plants.
Now that US gasoline is back down from the transitory high, the energy
crisis may be politically over? Where does that leave gasification?
I appreciate the positive comments which you have made towards our
efforts. There are some very large financial deals looming with our
technology, some may occur in the next month or so. The US energy "crisis" or
whatever it is has little connection to the rest of the world. Most of our
interest in energy production has been in overseas markets.
The new technology for ethanol separation has greatly reduced the energy
consumption.

Sincerely,
Leland T. Taylor
President
Thermogenics Inc.
7100-2nd St. NW, Albuquerque, New Mexico 87107
phone 505-761-1454 fax 505-761-1456
Attached files are zipped and can be decompressed with <A
HREF="http://www.aladdinsys.com/expander/">www.aladdinsys.com/expander/ </A>

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From snkm at btl.net Wed Jul 11 15:56:40 2001
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:29 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Heads Up!! Possible virus attack on this list!!
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20010711133425.00a0a4a0@wgs1.btl.net>

We have a strange situation here folks -- every time I post I get one of
these messages file attached back at me.

As I use the Old Eudora 3.0 -- pretty immune to high level viruses. And
this sure smells like one!!

Have any of the rest of you got these?

Read this message to the end for more examples and info:

***************************

Return-Path: <costaeec@kcnet.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 13:34:15 -0500
From: "jdunham" <costaeec@kcnet.com>
To: <snkm@btl.net>
Subject: Re: Re: GAS-L: Alcohol fuel still plans and designs
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700

'Peter Singfield' wrote:
====
- At 07:06 AM 7/11/2001 EDT, you wrote:
- >In a message dated 7/11/2001 1:15:38 AM Central Daylight Time,
snkm@btl.net
- >writes:
- >
- ><< Actually -- I was more curious regarding what to do with our failing
sugar
- > industry here.
- > >>
- >
- >So now you are back to the industrial size plant idea?
-
- Never left it. We have a sugar industry here subsidized by a ridiculously
- high British program that ends in 2006 ($550US/t). After which point Belize
- will ...'

> Take a look to the attachment.

Attachment Converted: "c:\XAIBE\ATTACH\YOU_are_FAT!.TXT.pif"

*******************

I have recieved 11 such to date -- all different titles.

As example of other names:

images

Me_nude.AVI

fun

s3msong.MP#

searchURL.scr

README.TXT

and so on --

They are all 13 kb in size. I'll probably get another one after posting
this message.

Also -- they all quote back the same number of lines and then this message:

"> Take a look to the attachment. "

Followed by some ridiculous attachment -- which I simple totally delete
("SHIT" - "DELETE") from my system.

Sounds like a "robot" attack to me!

And it is always from:

"jdunham" <costaeec@kcnet.com>

Anyone know who that person is?? Tried communicating -- never got a reply
-- figures.

So -- heads up everyone!!

Peter/Belize

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From CAVM at aol.com Wed Jul 11 16:07:42 2001
From: CAVM at aol.com (CAVM@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:29 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Heads Up!! Possible virus attack on this list!!
Message-ID: <88.91a2a9b.287e0b5a@aol.com>

In a message dated 7/11/2001 2:55:59 PM Central Daylight Time, snkm@btl.net
writes:

<<
Sounds like a "robot" attack to me!

And it is always from:

"jdunham" <costaeec@kcnet.com>

Anyone know who that person is?? Tried communicating -- never got a reply
-- figures.

So -- heads up everyone!!
>>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Jim is a really good guy and will be very distressed if he is the unwitting
cause of this.

C. Van Milligen

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From snkm at btl.net Wed Jul 11 18:36:40 2001
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:29 2004
Subject: GAS-L: It is (WAS on my system!!) a virus
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20010711144729.0097aa50@wgs1.btl.net>

OK folks -- it is (was) a virus attack and it must still be going out to
you folks on this mail list --

So just who is this fellow?

From: "jdunham" <costaeec@kcnet.com>
To: <snkm@btl.net>
Subject: Re: Re: GAS-L: Alcohol fuel still plans and designs
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700

********************

For the technically inclined -- the name of this virus is:

W95/mgistr.28672@mm

More later --

Peter / Belize

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From snkm at btl.net Wed Jul 11 18:37:36 2001
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:29 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Virus attack to this list!!
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20010711152548.009844b0@wgs1.btl.net>

At 04:04 PM 7/11/2001 EDT, you wrote:
>In a message dated 7/11/2001 2:55:59 PM Central Daylight Time, snkm@btl.net
>------------------------------
>
>Jim is a really good guy and will be very distressed if he is the unwitting
>cause of this.
>
>C. Van Milligen
>

You might have to phone him to tell him what happened -- his system could
be history by now. It is/was a virus.

Not the first time -- and not the last time.

Tom is right about running an Apple -- and I minimize this by staying away
from modern software --

But someone has to let Jim know -- my messages from yesterday regarding
this went unanswered.

Got his phone number?? (not for the list -- but for you to advise him)

Peter

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From CAVM at aol.com Wed Jul 11 18:55:44 2001
From: CAVM at aol.com (CAVM@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:29 2004
Subject: GAS-L: It is (WAS on my system!!) a virus
Message-ID: <41.df62f18.287e3273@aol.com>

I have Jim on the phone and he has disconnected his computer. He has 2 virus
software programs but neither caught it. His software now tells him that it
can not repair the damage so he may have to reformat his harddrive to get rid
of it. And he just bought this new computer a couple of months ago so
presumably the virus software is new too.

C. Van Milligen
Kentucky Enrichment Inc

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From snkm at btl.net Wed Jul 11 20:15:36 2001
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:29 2004
Subject: GAS-L: It is (WAS on my system!!) a virus
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20010711181140.00977e30@wgs1.btl.net>

At 06:51 PM 7/11/2001 EDT, you wrote:
>I have Jim on the phone and he has disconnected his computer. He has 2 virus
>software programs but neither caught it. His software now tells him that it
>can not repair the damage so he may have to reformat his harddrive to get
rid
>of it. And he just bought this new computer a couple of months ago so
>presumably the virus software is new too.
>
>C. Van Milligen
>Kentucky Enrichment Inc

Now -- that is bad luck --

News about Magistr is all over the net --

Here is just one short blurb: (Peter/Belize)

************************

Don't get sentenced by the Magistr virus

Magistr is a polymorphic virus from Sweden that is capable of mass mailing
itself to addresses found within the Windows Address Book, Outlook, and
Netscape address books as well as to addresses found in e-mail within these
mailboxes.
The subject and body of the infected e-mail changes, using file names found
on the infected computer.

Magistr may send more than one .exe file as an attachment, and may also
send non-infected attachments.

Magistr's code is encrypted, and uses anti-debugging techniques to avoid
detection. Magistr also contains a destructive payload.

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From snkm at btl.net Wed Jul 11 20:31:53 2001
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:29 2004
Subject: GAS-L: About Magistr -- its real mean!
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20010711182708.0097a290@wgs1.btl.net>

OK listers -- about the present from Sweden -- a real meany!!

By the way -- my old dos based "F-Prot" caught it - as soon as I downloaded
the latest "Define" file -- which it had been warning me to do for the past
month - and I had been to "lazy".

I caught it on "suspicion" alone -- or I hope I did -- will find out -- I
guess -- in 30 days --

There you go folks -- real life -- just when you think everything is under
control -- wham!!

by the sounds of it -- Jim's computer -- and all his data -- is a gonner.

Anyone else get "infected"??

If anyone gets any "strange" emails from me now -- let me know immediately
-- please!!

Sure makes one wish they were running an Apple!!

Peter / Belize

******************************
Wednesday, March 14, 2001

Magistr: A Recipe Of Blending Virus and Worm with Some Multilevel
Polymorphism Flavour

Cambridge, United Kingdom, March 14, 2001:

Kaspersky Labs, an international data-security software-development
company, warns computer users about the discovery of a new extremely
dangerous computer virus "Magistr," which spreads via e-mail and local area
networks, and uses a set of nifty techniques to hide its presence in
infected computers that makes it very difficult to detect and disinfect.
According to the comments found in the virus body, it was written in Malmo,
Sweden by a hacker going by the pseudonym of "The Judges Disemboweler."
Kaspersky Lab has already received several reports about the worm
"in-the-wild."

"Magistr" can enter a computer three ways: firstly, via e-mail messages
when a user has accidentally launched the infected attached file; secondly,
using the local area network (LAN) by infecting files found on available
servers’ and workstations’ shared resources; thirdly, when an infected file
has been delivered to a system by any removable storage media or downloaded
from the Internet or other networks.

Right after the infected file is executed, the virus initiates the
procedure of penetration into the system, mass e-mail distribution and,
after some time, it activates the built-in destructive payload.

To complete the mass e-mail distribution, "Magistr" scans the Outlook
Express, Internet Mail and Netscape Messenger mail databases and Windows
address book, and reads all e-mail addresses. Details about the mail
databases location and their names are stored in a special file having the
DAT extension. The name of the file is derived by encrypting the original
computer's name. For instance, if a computer has a name CS-GOAT, then the
file will be named WG-SKYF.DAT. Depending on the first character of the
filename, the virus copies this file in the C: drive root directory or the
"Windows" or "Program Files" directory.

After this, "Magistr" invisibly retrieves the SMTP server that is connected
to the infected computer, and, on behalf of the user, sends out e-mail
messages through the server containing random PE EXE or SCR files less than
132Kb in size that are already infected with the virus. The subjects of the
messages are randomly selected from DOC and TXT files found on the computer
or from the list of some English, Spanish and French phrases planted in the
virus body. The body of the messages contains random text taken from random
files found on the disk. Such inconstancy of outward appearance of the
distributed e-mails significantly complicates the identification of
infected e-mails by users themselves.

With a 20% probability, "Magistr" also attaches a random DOC or TXT file
found in the system while the virus was scanning for the Subject and
MessageBody texts. As a result, a randomly selected DOC or TXT file may be
released causing confidential info disclosure.

It is important to note that when sending out infected e-mails, "Magistr"
randomly changes the sender's return address by deleting or changing some
characters. This fact also helps the virus hide its activity, since the
recipient cannot answer the message because of an incorrect return address.
Thus, the sender is not able to ascertain that the virus is sending out
unauthorized messages from his or her computer.

Right after the virus code is executed, "Magistr" infects all PE EXE and
SCR files found in "Windows," "WinNT," "Win95" and "Win98" catalogues of
all local and network drives connected to this particular computer. After
this, the virus scans all available network resources, looks for the
aforementioned catalogues, and infects PE EXE and SCR files there. When
infecting the files, "Magistr" uses several very sophisticated techniques
that significantly complicate its detection and removal. The virus is
divided into three parts with two of them encrypted with a strong
polymorphic algorithm, so the infected file appears in the following way:

Therefore, after the infected file is run, the virus immediately intercepts
its execution in the program's entry point, and redirects the program's
processor to the main virus code. Only after the main virus code has been
completed does the virus return control to the original program.

In order to secure its constant presence in the infected systems, "Magistr"
modifies the WIN.INI configuration file and Windows system registry in a
way that the virus is activated each time the system boots up. When
infecting network resources, the virus modifies the WIN.INI file only.

"Magistr" carries a very dangerous destructive payload. One month after the
day of the first infection, the virus destroys all files on local and
network drives on computers running Windows NT/2000 by replacing their
original contents with the string "YOUARESHIT". Under Windows 95/98, the
virus additionally discards the CMOS memory settings (CMOS contains the
computer boot up hardware settings) and, just like the "Chernobyl" (CIH)
virus, destroys data in FLASH BIOS microchip. After this, it displays the
following message box:

Another haughty bloodsucker.......
YOU THINK YOU ARE GOD ,
BUT YOU ARE ONLY A CHUNK OF SHIT

Depending on the internal triggers, the virus also executes yet another
payload subroutine that invokes the "runaway icons" effect: if a user tries
to point the cursor to a desktop icon, the icon immediately changes its
location so the user cannot start the correspondent application:

"In this particular case, we are dealing with a very complex and
technologically advanced computer virus, which is powered by all the most
effective ways of spreading, infection, masquerading and has a very
dangerous payload," said Denis Zenkin, Head of Corporate Communications for
Kaspersky Lab. "As a matter of fact, ’Magistr’ is a result of the
successful crossing of the outstanding spreading speed of the ’ILOVEYOU’
virus and ’Chernobyl's’ extreme destructiveness."

Taking into account the danger and breath-taking spreading of the "Magistr"
virus, Kaspersky Lab recommend its users update the Kaspersky Anti-Virus
anti-virus database as soon as possible. Protection against the virus has
already been added to the program's daily update.

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Gasification List Archives:
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Gasification List Moderator:
Tom Reed, Biomass Energy Foundation, Reedtb2@cs.com
www.webpan.com/BEF

From snkm at btl.net Wed Jul 11 20:35:47 2001
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:29 2004
Subject: GAS-L: This list needs "cleaning"
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20010711182902.0097f140@wgs1.btl.net>

I also get one of these everytime I post!!

Return-Path: <>
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 01:14:03 +0100
From: "Fred Dumbleton" <fred.dumbleton@aeat.co.uk>
Sender: groupwise-postmaster@aeat.co.uk
Reply-To: fred.dumbleton@aeat.co.uk
Errors-To: groupwise-postmaster@aeat.co.uk
To: <snkm@btl.net>
Subject: Re: GAS-L: It is (WAS on my system!!) a virus (AbsentWise)
Content-Disposition: inline

I am on leave from 05 July 2001 until 24 July 2001 so will not be able to
deal with your message until my return. If your message requires more
urgent attention please contact Paul Maryan.

Thanks

Fred Dumbleton

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From tmiles at trmiles.com Wed Jul 11 21:30:44 2001
From: tmiles at trmiles.com (Tom Miles)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:29 2004
Subject: GAS-L: This list needs "cleaning"
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20010711182902.0097f140@wgs1.btl.net>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010711182554.00ce9e40@pop3.norton.antivirus>

Peter,

There is always someone out there with an automated reply.

The list is currently set to that when you (the sender) post to the list
you get the replies not the list I general. I'll see if there is a way to
disable that.

Tom

At 06:31 PM 7/11/01 -0500, Peter Singfield wrote:

>I also get one of these everytime I post!!
>
>Return-Path: <>
>Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 01:14:03 +0100
>From: "Fred Dumbleton" <fred.dumbleton@aeat.co.uk>
>Sender: groupwise-postmaster@aeat.co.uk
>Reply-To: fred.dumbleton@aeat.co.uk
>Errors-To: groupwise-postmaster@aeat.co.uk
>To: <snkm@btl.net>
>Subject: Re: GAS-L: It is (WAS on my system!!) a virus (AbsentWise)
>Content-Disposition: inline
>
>I am on leave from 05 July 2001 until 24 July 2001 so will not be able to
>deal with your message until my return. If your message requires more
>urgent attention please contact Paul Maryan.
>
>Thanks
>
>Fred Dumbleton
>
>
>-
>Gasification List Archives:
>http://www.crest.org/discussion/gasification/current/
>
>Gasification List Moderator:
>Tom Reed, Biomass Energy Foundation, Reedtb2@cs.com
>www.webpan.com/BEF
>
>Sponsor the Gasification List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html
>-
>Other Gasification Events and Information:
>http://www.fsec.ucf.edu/bioam/
>http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml
>http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/

Thomas R Miles tmiles@trmiles.com
T R Miles, TCI Tel 503-292-0107
1470 SW Woodward Way Fax 503-292-2919
Portland, OR 97225 USA

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From tmiles at trmiles.com Wed Jul 11 22:55:25 2001
From: tmiles at trmiles.com (Tom Miles)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:29 2004
Subject: GAS-L: About Magistr -- its real mean!
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20010711182708.0097a290@wgs1.btl.net>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010711192734.036804a0@pop3.norton.antivirus>

Peter,

Thanks for the posting. Your description is more complete than ones I have
gotten from Macafee or Norton.

I received a volley of virus attachments when I returned from a trip about
three weeks ago. My old checker files deleted several but missed the key:
Magistr. The first I learned about it was the odd messages that came back
to me from people I had not emailed, who were using anit-virus software
(primarily Norton) on their computers. I updated and cleaned the infected
computer. Then I found viruses detected on my other (networked) computers.
My laptop was the carrier between two networks before I discovered the
problem. So the virus reappeared but not before sending out another volley
of emails with virus attachments.

Source: I never found out where I got the first file from. I think Dunham
and I have exchanged virus files. He may have first gotten it from me and
sent it back.

Damage: The first infected file killed a Windows 98 operating system. I
think that was from a warhead called Rebootw.exe. That is one that most
anti-virus programs have detected. As far as I know I lost no files but had
to reinstall Windows, meaning that I had to reinstall the registration
files for all the application programs I use. I think this computer later
became infected via the office network (which is now clean, once the virus
files were updated).

The second infected computer (laptop) kept detecting virus's that should
have been cleaned. I think it was infected from email and the network. Part
of Magistr attached itself to a file that was isolated (quarantined) by
Norton before a recovery disk could be created. Once that file was not
accessible to Windows then Windows simply shut down every time it rebooted.
Another reinstall. So it's. nefarious.

All clean now, I think. Sorry for passing things along.

Fortunes of War.

Tom

At 06:27 PM 7/11/01 -0500, Peter Singfield wrote:

>OK listers -- about the present from Sweden -- a real meany!!
>
>By the way -- my old dos based "F-Prot" caught it - as soon as I downloaded
>the latest "Define" file -- which it had been warning me to do for the past
>month - and I had been to "lazy".
>
>I caught it on "suspicion" alone -- or I hope I did -- will find out -- I
>guess -- in 30 days --
>
>There you go folks -- real life -- just when you think everything is under
>control -- wham!!
>
>by the sounds of it -- Jim's computer -- and all his data -- is a gonner.
>
>Anyone else get "infected"??
>
>If anyone gets any "strange" emails from me now -- let me know immediately
>-- please!!
>
>Sure makes one wish they were running an Apple!!
>
>Peter / Belize
>
>******************************
>Wednesday, March 14, 2001
>
>Magistr: A Recipe Of Blending Virus and Worm with Some Multilevel
>Polymorphism Flavour
>
>Cambridge, United Kingdom, March 14, 2001:
>
>Kaspersky Labs, an international data-security software-development
>company, warns computer users about the discovery of a new extremely
>dangerous computer virus "Magistr," which spreads via e-mail and local area
>networks, and uses a set of nifty techniques to hide its presence in
>infected computers that makes it very difficult to detect and disinfect.
>According to the comments found in the virus body, it was written in Malmo,
>Sweden by a hacker going by the pseudonym of "The Judges Disemboweler."
>Kaspersky Lab has already received several reports about the worm
>"in-the-wild."
>
>"Magistr" can enter a computer three ways: firstly, via e-mail messages
>when a user has accidentally launched the infected attached file; secondly,
>using the local area network (LAN) by infecting files found on available
>servers' and workstations' shared resources; thirdly, when an infected file
>has been delivered to a system by any removable storage media or downloaded
>from the Internet or other networks.
>
>Right after the infected file is executed, the virus initiates the
>procedure of penetration into the system, mass e-mail distribution and,
>after some time, it activates the built-in destructive payload.
>
>To complete the mass e-mail distribution, "Magistr" scans the Outlook
>Express, Internet Mail and Netscape Messenger mail databases and Windows
>address book, and reads all e-mail addresses. Details about the mail
>databases location and their names are stored in a special file having the
>DAT extension. The name of the file is derived by encrypting the original
>computer's name. For instance, if a computer has a name CS-GOAT, then the
>file will be named WG-SKYF.DAT. Depending on the first character of the
>filename, the virus copies this file in the C: drive root directory or the
>"Windows" or "Program Files" directory.
>
>After this, "Magistr" invisibly retrieves the SMTP server that is connected
>to the infected computer, and, on behalf of the user, sends out e-mail
>messages through the server containing random PE EXE or SCR files less than
>132Kb in size that are already infected with the virus. The subjects of the
>messages are randomly selected from DOC and TXT files found on the computer
>or from the list of some English, Spanish and French phrases planted in the
>virus body. The body of the messages contains random text taken from random
>files found on the disk. Such inconstancy of outward appearance of the
>distributed e-mails significantly complicates the identification of
>infected e-mails by users themselves.
>
>With a 20% probability, "Magistr" also attaches a random DOC or TXT file
>found in the system while the virus was scanning for the Subject and
>MessageBody texts. As a result, a randomly selected DOC or TXT file may be
>released causing confidential info disclosure.
>
>It is important to note that when sending out infected e-mails, "Magistr"
>randomly changes the sender's return address by deleting or changing some
>characters. This fact also helps the virus hide its activity, since the
>recipient cannot answer the message because of an incorrect return address.
>Thus, the sender is not able to ascertain that the virus is sending out
>unauthorized messages from his or her computer.
>
>Right after the virus code is executed, "Magistr" infects all PE EXE and
>SCR files found in "Windows," "WinNT," "Win95" and "Win98" catalogues of
>all local and network drives connected to this particular computer. After
>this, the virus scans all available network resources, looks for the
>aforementioned catalogues, and infects PE EXE and SCR files there. When
>infecting the files, "Magistr" uses several very sophisticated techniques
>that significantly complicate its detection and removal. The virus is
>divided into three parts with two of them encrypted with a strong
>polymorphic algorithm, so the infected file appears in the following way:
>
>
>Therefore, after the infected file is run, the virus immediately intercepts
>its execution in the program's entry point, and redirects the program's
>processor to the main virus code. Only after the main virus code has been
>completed does the virus return control to the original program.
>
>In order to secure its constant presence in the infected systems, "Magistr"
>modifies the WIN.INI configuration file and Windows system registry in a
>way that the virus is activated each time the system boots up. When
>infecting network resources, the virus modifies the WIN.INI file only.
>
>"Magistr" carries a very dangerous destructive payload. One month after the
>day of the first infection, the virus destroys all files on local and
>network drives on computers running Windows NT/2000 by replacing their
>original contents with the string "YOUARESHIT". Under Windows 95/98, the
>virus additionally discards the CMOS memory settings (CMOS contains the
>computer boot up hardware settings) and, just like the "Chernobyl" (CIH)
>virus, destroys data in FLASH BIOS microchip. After this, it displays the
>following message box:
>
>Another haughty bloodsucker.......
>YOU THINK YOU ARE GOD ,
>BUT YOU ARE ONLY A CHUNK OF SHIT
>
>Depending on the internal triggers, the virus also executes yet another
>payload subroutine that invokes the "runaway icons" effect: if a user tries
>to point the cursor to a desktop icon, the icon immediately changes its
>location so the user cannot start the correspondent application:
>
>
>"In this particular case, we are dealing with a very complex and
>technologically advanced computer virus, which is powered by all the most
>effective ways of spreading, infection, masquerading and has a very
>dangerous payload," said Denis Zenkin, Head of Corporate Communications for
>Kaspersky Lab. "As a matter of fact, 'Magistr' is a result of the
>successful crossing of the outstanding spreading speed of the 'ILOVEYOU'
>virus and 'Chernobyl's' extreme destructiveness."
>
>Taking into account the danger and breath-taking spreading of the "Magistr"
>virus, Kaspersky Lab recommend its users update the Kaspersky Anti-Virus
>anti-virus database as soon as possible. Protection against the virus has
>already been added to the program's daily update.
>
>
>
>
>
>-
>Gasification List Archives:
>http://www.crest.org/discussion/gasification/current/
>
>Gasification List Moderator:
>Tom Reed, Biomass Energy Foundation, Reedtb2@cs.com
>www.webpan.com/BEF
>
>Sponsor the Gasification List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html
>-
>Other Gasification Events and Information:
>http://www.fsec.ucf.edu/bioam/
>http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml
>http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/

Thomas R Miles tmiles@trmiles.com
T R Miles, TCI Tel 503-292-0107
1470 SW Woodward Way Fax 503-292-2919
Portland, OR 97225 USA

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Gasification List Archives:
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Gasification List Moderator:
Tom Reed, Biomass Energy Foundation, Reedtb2@cs.com
www.webpan.com/BEF

From keith at journeytoforever.org Thu Jul 12 03:22:14 2001
From: keith at journeytoforever.org (Keith Addison)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:29 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Alcohol fuel still plans and designs
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20010711091659.00982610@wgs1.btl.net>
Message-ID: <v0421010cb772e36da23e@[192.168.0.200]>

Hi Peter

Thanks very much for this, below - very interesting. I forwarded it
to our Biofuels list, which has a lot of people interested in/doing
ethanol, and quite a lot of members in places where they grow sugar.
Let's see what they make of it.

Thanks again

Best

Keith Addison
Journey to Forever
http://journeytoforever.org/

>Hi Keith;
>
>You must experiment with fermenting the boiled liquor extract from sugar
>cane -- not the pressed/expressed extract.
>
>The boiled extract contains so much more "minerals" -- you need add nothing
>-- not even yeast -- for a violent fermentation to start and run to
>completion.
>
>I mention a conservative 14% -- but if you optimize sugar levels -- it goes
>16% or better.
>
>Boiling may sound energy intensive -- but it is not in the methology I use.
>
>"Pressure-Cooking" -- or extraction by heated, pressurized, water.
>
>Operating at 20 Psi -- 228 F -- for 3 hours. The water does not boil. you
>insulate/jacket the pot -- very little heat required to maintain temperature.
>
>I use a bucket in a jacketed drum to get back most of my invested heat when
>I transfer pots.
>
>Mind you -- I have to look at all this from village perspective -- no
>tractors -- no other machineries -- everything by hand.
>
>If I was "allowed" a few pieces of equipment -- which I have designed --
>but probably will never build -- I could really make this process fly!!
>
>Pressurized Soxhlet extraction "tower" (steam) would extract large batches
>of pulverized cane (more on that process below) automatically to the proper
>sugar in liquor densities required for optimum fermentation.
>
>True -- this would be boiling and condensing -- so energy hungry -- but I
>planned to use a small refrigeration cycle power plant to condense -- and
>thus extract electrical power. The fuel for this process would be the bagasse.
>
>You can get a rough idea at:
>
>http://www.sterlingsolar.com/engines.htm
>
>Though the device I have in mind to build would be more efficient and simpler.
>
>Even the heat in the hot pressurized liquor -- on exiting -- would be
>recovered in this manner.
>
>The internal pressure of this process would also look after pumping liquor
>to the fermentation tanks.
>
>Also -- heat transferring from the Soxhlet extraction process -- could
>easily power the distillation process when required -- with energy still
>being picked up by the refrigeration cycle motor when condensing the alcohols.
>
>This then would be a inclosed system of great efficiency in ethanol from
>cane processing.
>
>Pulverizing cane
>
>The Mennonites here have developed an interesting device to pulverize cane
>to mix with their animal feeds -- they mix this up to 18% (by weight) with
>their regular grains.
>
>It is a Honda 10 HP belt driving a shaft with a regular lawn mower blade
>attached to one end -- the pulley to the other. This blade extends past a
>wooden table platform to be enclosed by an appropriate sized truck tire.
>The bottom part of this tire -- extending to the bottom -- is cut out.
>
>A 2 in square hole is cut into the side wall even with the table top.
>
>Motor is started. Cane is pushed in a rapid manner through this hole --
>cane is pulverized and extracted from bottom.
>
>A very productive system for a minimum of machine power. Sure beats
>chopping cane by machete to short lengths and then splitting by machete!
>
>And of course -- the spent products of fermentation make a wonderful feed
>supplement as well!
>
>I try to always design for top efficiency -- in any process. We are not so
>energy rich here as you folks -- but you certainly can't tell that by
>looking how Belizeans live -- for them it is nothing but more waste of
>energy -- year by year -- they have adopted the true North American life
>style. Burn it all up today -- because tomorrow we all die!
>
>You might catch a few real good "hints" in all the above -- good luck to
>you in applying it.
>
>Peter Singfield
>Belize / Central America
>
>At 08:42 PM 7/11/2001 +0900, you wrote:
> >Hello Thomas
> >
> >>to keith, peter...
> >>i read the journey to forever / mothernatures pages about stills
> >>carefully and remember 20 years ago there was a state funded trial in
> >>our village on still with cereals, potatoes etc nearby munich/ bavaria
> >>to power their agricultural engines...
> >>just my opinion:
> >>its input is too high regarding the possible output (efficiency low
> >>-except you succeed to use wood, fibres to gain alcohol...)
> >
> >This is a myth Thomas, please see below. Ethanol from cellulose still
> >has some way to travel for truly efficient processes IMHO.
> >
> >"Wood-Ethanol Report: Technology Review", Environment Canada 1999 --
> >good overview of the problem and the current solutions on offer.
> >http://www.pyr.ec.gc.ca/ep/wet/section16.html
> >
> >>and you
> >>often use food as fuel!!
> >
> >Another myth, I'm afraid - below.
> >
> >>to generate alcohol, suppose is viable only in
> >>regions wehere is huge surplus...
> >>sure woodgas is dirtier but more energy-efficient..., thomas
> >>--
> >>der kleine deutsche oeko-pilz-anbauer \
> >>the small german organic mushroomer http://www.biopilze.de/wir.htm
> >>le petit eco - champignoneur allemand /
> >
> >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html#foodorfuel
> >Food or Fuel?
> >A common objection to biomass energy production is that it could
> >divert agricultural production away from food crops in a hungry world
> >-- even leading to mass starvation in the poor countries.
> >
> >True or not? Not true: at best it's an oversimplification of a
> >complex issue. It just doesn't work that way, and neither does hunger.
> >
> >[more]
> >
> >http://journeytoforever.org/ethanol_energy.html
> >Is ethanol energy-efficient?
> >
> >One of the most controversial issues relating to ethanol is the
> >question of what environmentalists call the "net energy" of ethanol
> >production. Simply put, is more energy used to grow and process the
> >raw material into ethanol than is contained in the ethanol itself?
> >
> >[more]
> >
> >There's another point here that's widely missed. Ethanol also has an
> >important role in biodiesel production: ethyl esters biodiesel is
> >cleaner and more rational than methyl esters biodiesel made with
> >methanol, which, unlike ethanol, is toxic, mostly derived from fossil
> >fuels, and you can't easily make it yourself.
> >
> >At any rate, very many people are making their own fuel ethanol on a
> >small scale, more all the time, all over the world. It especially
> >makes sense on-farm, where none of the energy-in vs energy-out
> >scenarios make a lot of sense. A lot of ethanol is also being made
> >from waste products, which never seem to get calculated.
> >
> >Best wishes
> >
> >Keith Addison
> >
> >
> >-
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> >
> >Gasification List Moderator:
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> >www.webpan.com/BEF
> >
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> >-
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> >http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
> >
> >
>
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From graeme at powerlink.co.nz Thu Jul 12 04:22:47 2001
From: graeme at powerlink.co.nz (Graeme Williams)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:29 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Fluidyne Report - Northern Ireland
Message-ID: <004001c10aab$7ecaf480$5f9636d2@graeme>

Fluidyne Report – Northern Ireland

Last year (March 2000) I reported on my visit to Belfast for the biomass
conference, and mentioned my assisting Rural Generation Ltd to resolve some
operational problems they were having with their gasifier. The technology
they were using was far from adequate, and RGL decided to change over to our
Fluidyne systems. The existing installation at Brook Hall in Londonderry,
is slowly being converted to the new system, but this has to be done between
the times of generation into the grid.

Whilst RGL are to be the implementing company for Fluidyne's Mega class
gasifiers and Eco Puck's briquetting systems, the actual alliance partners
are John Gilliland, managing director of of RGL and Brian Russell managing
director of Innovation Technologies (Ireland)
http://www.innovation-tech.co.uk/
John is also a grain farmer and currently Vice Chairman of the Ulster
Farmers Union, and absolutely dedicated to finding ways to support and keep
farmers on the land in Northern Ireland.

Brian's own consultancy is quite a diverse business, but has become very
involved in renewable energy ands gasification since contacting me three
years ago. He works very closely with Queens University Belfast, and
provides work experience for visiting French and German students. Due to
the fact that I reside in New Zealand, the difficulty of discussing projects
in Europe is becoming apparent and for this reason I have appointed Brian
Russell and his company ITI to represent Fluidyne in Europe. Willie Richter
will still represent me in Germany, but he is restricted by language
problems. All new project proposals should be sent to Brian.

Whilst there is not much gasification activity in Northern Ireland at the
moment, it appears that the long term energy supply is a more serious
prospect. From about 2008, all on shore energy supplies will be exhausted
and the country will then depend on 100% import of energy.

There will of course be the usual windmill farms along the coastline, but
the wind doesn't blow to order at peak times, and there opens the
opportunity for gasified power generation.

John's interest in energy farming has seen him plant coppicing willows, and
another director of RGL, Murray Carter is a major player in managing coppice
willow projects in the U.K. Farming sector. Refer Fluidyne archive:
http://members.nbci.com/whitools/

Since I sorted out why coppicing willow was such a difficult fuel to gasify
(Long Ashton project 1994) I must admit that I had thought willow was a lost
cause. This was before the advent of Eco Puck's briquetting technology and
for farmers in Northern Ireland and the U.K. It might very well be the
beginning of a new energy initiative.

Without going over all the obvious problems of willow, the ability to shred
harvest and briquette a green crop then zap it into a fuel ready product
offers considerable market benefits particularly as the briquette doesn't
deteriorate in storage.

This isn't suddenly going to convince farmers to grow willow however as it
requires locking up the land for many years to recover the investment. So
in order to resolve the farmers' apprehension and get him into a money crop,
John has proposed a hemp growing co-operative to grow the fuel for a Mega
class gasifier project at Brook Hall or other site, next year (2002)

We discussed all the pros and cons of this in Canada during our joint
meeting there, and John suggested South Armagh as he has business friends
over the border in the Republic who have experience in growing hemp as a
crop. Of course its easy to say this, but everyone knows of the problems in
Northern Ireland and it may not be se easy to implement, at least that is my
opinion. John insists that the farmers are all great guys and received
tremendous co-operation from everyone during the foot and mouth crisis and
wants to initiate the project in South Armagh. If he is right, it should
certainly inject new life into rural communities which are in decline due to
lack of work opportunities.

The main emphasis in Ireland though will be to pursue waste disposal as a
first order of busisness and power generation to use the gas being
produced. In order to move into this market activity, RGL have appointed a
business development manager Mike Doran who has a very impressive background
of company experience. I had the chance to spend a day with Mike to see him
in action, and I can only say I'm glad he's on our team. Whilst in his
company I was invited to attend a meeting with a government department
seeking assistance to locate suitable companies to use our technology.

It was a pleasant surprise to be received with considerable enthusiasm by
the lady marketing specialist, who after half an hour, was so fired up with
the prospect of developing a new market, just couldn't wait to get going!

Another development in Northern Ireland, is a project between RGL, Queens
University (Dr. David Arnt), and Bowman, a gas turbine manufacturer in the
U.K. The project is to develop a low cost gas turbine specifically for
producer gas in a range from 75-400kWe. There was a delay in submitting the
final proposal due to the foot and mouth crisis, and Nick Barker of E.T.S.U.
bent over backwards to assist the team with their proposal so as to include
this project with the current batch of applications.

Our alliance plan is to have a Mega Class gasifier in Northern Ireland by
the end of the year, along with the briquetter currently in Winnipeg, and
briquette processing machine. It is expected that projects will be
identified in the waste disposal sector before the equipment arrives, as
Dublin city has already expressed interest in a sludge disposal system.

Comment.
Northern Ireland is a rather unique situation to do anything with farming,
politics, religion and energy all in various states of crises. For me its
refreshing to find beaurocrats in government jobs actually helping
industrial initiative which I'd like to think is a sign of goodwill that
exists in all sectors of the Irish community.

The team in Northern Ireland are in my opinion the best I could find to
tackle the job of gasified power implementation, which in the process I hope
brings some unified purpose for the rural farming sector. This may take a
little time, but whatever happens, I intend to make the results known
through this forum.

Doug Williams
Fluidyne Gasification.

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From lennart.mukka at lkab.com Thu Jul 12 07:07:54 2001
From: lennart.mukka at lkab.com (Lennart Mukka)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:29 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Coalgasification
Message-ID: <OF377E20A6.505750ED-ON41256A87.002ECA49@lkab.kiruna.se>

Coal gasifier for oil replacement in a kiln.
We are looking for possibilities to use a coal gasifier. The gas
will be used for heating a kiln. The coal will have a melting-point for
ash higher than 1500(superscript: 0)C.

Today we fire oil in the kiln about 30 MW.

Lennart Mukka
Manager Energy Engineering Group
LKAB
Sweden

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From snkm at btl.net Thu Jul 12 09:45:34 2001
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:29 2004
Subject: GAS-L: This list needs "cleaning"
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20010712060433.0097dc40@wgs1.btl.net>

At 06:28 PM 7/11/2001 -0700, Tom Miles wrote:
>Peter,
>
>There is always someone out there with an automated reply.
>
>The list is currently set to that when you (the sender) post to the list
>you get the replies not the list I general. I'll see if there is a way to
>disable that.
>
>Tom

Your right about that Tom -- and I do not see how anything can be done to
stop it. A minor inconvenience anyway.

Peter

>At 06:31 PM 7/11/01 -0500, Peter Singfield wrote:
>
>>I also get one of these everytime I post!!
>>
>>Return-Path: <>
>>Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 01:14:03 +0100
>>From: "Fred Dumbleton" <fred.dumbleton@aeat.co.uk>
>>Sender: groupwise-postmaster@aeat.co.uk
>>Reply-To: fred.dumbleton@aeat.co.uk
>>Errors-To: groupwise-postmaster@aeat.co.uk
>>To: <snkm@btl.net>
>>Subject: Re: GAS-L: It is (WAS on my system!!) a virus (AbsentWise)
>>Content-Disposition: inline
>>
>>I am on leave from 05 July 2001 until 24 July 2001 so will not be able to
>>deal with your message until my return. If your message requires more
>>urgent attention please contact Paul Maryan.
>>
>>Thanks
>>
>>Fred Dumbleton
>>
>>
>>-
>>Gasification List Archives:
>>http://www.crest.org/discussion/gasification/current/
>>
>>Gasification List Moderator:
>>Tom Reed, Biomass Energy Foundation, Reedtb2@cs.com
>>www.webpan.com/BEF
>>
>>Sponsor the Gasification List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html
>>-
>>Other Gasification Events and Information:
>>http://www.fsec.ucf.edu/bioam/
>>http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml
>>http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
>
>Thomas R Miles tmiles@trmiles.com
>T R Miles, TCI Tel 503-292-0107
>1470 SW Woodward Way Fax 503-292-2919
>Portland, OR 97225 USA
>
>
>-
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>
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>
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>-
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>http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
>
>

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From jerry5335 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 12 11:22:45 2001
From: jerry5335 at yahoo.com (jerry dycus)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:29 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Coalgasification
In-Reply-To: <OF377E20A6.505750ED-ON41256A87.002ECA49@lkab.kiruna.se>
Message-ID: <20010712151927.44726.qmail@web14006.mail.yahoo.com>

Hi Lennart and All,

--- Lennart Mukka <lennart.mukka@lkab.com> wrote:
> Coal gasifier for oil replacement in a kiln.
> We are looking for possibilities to use a coal
> gasifier. The gas
> will be used for heating a kiln. The coal will have
> a melting-point for
> ash higher than 1500(superscript: 0)C.
>
> Today we fire oil in the kiln about 30 MW.
How about using biomass to fuel the gasifier?
There are several models made in Europe in that size
range.
Coal will pollute badly with it's radioactive,
heavy metal and soot pollution.
Each coal plant in the US puts out more
radioactive stuff than all the US nuke plants, mining
and processing put together.
There are plans if you want to build your own on
several biofuel websites.
jerry dycus

>
>
> Lennart Mukka
> Manager Energy Engineering Group
> LKAB
> Sweden
>
>
> -
> Gasification List Archives:
>
http://www.crest.org/discussion/gasification/current/
>
> Gasification List Moderator:
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> www.webpan.com/BEF
>
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> http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html
> -
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>
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> http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
>

__________________________________________________
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From snkm at btl.net Thu Jul 12 11:39:14 2001
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:29 2004
Subject: GAS-L: About Magistr -- its real mean!
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20010712081442.0098b8f0@wgs1.btl.net>

At 07:53 PM 7/11/2001 -0700, you wrote:
>Peter,
>
>Thanks for the posting. Your description is more complete than ones I have
>gotten from Macafee or Norton.
>

*******************snipped*********

Tom -- thanks for your story -- it has really woke me up!!

No more slacking off regarding up-dating the virus checker data files!! And
also -- paying more attention to virus alerts!

I use "Ghost" to do complete mirror back-ups of my hard drive -- to another
hard drive -- on a regular basis. The second hard drive is plugged in only
for these back ups. Then back into the box after.

I use a 3rd hard drive just for data back-ups -- and it is mounted in the
computer -- but the power plug pulled -- it runs only when I need to back
up files. This drive does not boot -- just data storage.

Right now I dare not Ghost the main hard drive -- one never knows if the
virus may or may not be there. Even though I found and cleaned plenty!

So I restrict myself just to data back-ups for now -- no system back-ups.

I also use a neat program (freeware) for monitoring what is going on when a
computer is running -- gets all the "back-ground" stuff. And allows you to
"kill" programs that are not supposed to be there. You hit properties first
-- make a note where they are coming from -- then "kill" then (that means
stops them from operating) then go delete them -- totally -- (hold shift
key then hist delete key -- when high-lighting the file to be deleted) --
this blows the program clean away!

Anyway -- get your at:

http://www.blehq.org/

It is -- in point of fact -- how I actually new something was "really" wrong.

It is a mean world out there -- now I wait 30 days to see how well I did
the cleaning job.

Peter

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From snkm at btl.net Thu Jul 12 12:05:30 2001
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:29 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Coalgasification
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20010712100029.009ac590@wgs1.btl.net>

At 08:19 AM 7/12/2001 -0700, you wrote:
> Hi Lennart and All,
> Coal will pollute badly with it's radioactive,
>heavy metal and soot pollution.
> Each coal plant in the US puts out more
>radioactive stuff than all the US nuke plants, mining
>and processing put together.
> There are plans if you want to build your own on
>several biofuel websites.
> jerry dycus

An important point -- that I have always believed true -- that coal
produced more radiation -- directly into out atmosphere -- by many fold --
than the equivalent power generated by nuclear plants.

But you see -- the "Greens" do not have that on their agenda -- in fact
ignore it totally!!

The Greens will be the destruction of planet earth's environment --
eventually. Political fanatics always are extremely counter productive to
man kind and his environment.

Sometimes I believe the 3rd world war will be fought over this issue. That
is stopping the Greens from destroying the human race and the planet.

I realize there are serious Greens on this list -- and imagine they are
ready to shoot me already!

A perfect group -- ready at any moment to march to any conflict they chose.

We kill this planet because "they" do not 'want" nuclear power plants -- no
matter what the facts of the matter are.

When the human race develops this kind of mind set -- it always falters.

We are having the same problem with the DDT house spraying program. Has
been proven over and over not to effect the ecology -- and extremely
effective at stopping the spread of malaria -- yet the Greens want it
stopped. Will result in a million or more extra deaths due to malaria --
per year!

What the world has become!! (Green Fascism is alive and well -- and the
only way to get rid of fascists is by war!)

Peter / Belize

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From snkm at btl.net Thu Jul 12 12:54:09 2001
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:29 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Balche -- Mayan wine derived from boiler sugar cane
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20010712100337.009c4a20@wgs1.btl.net>

I was going to reply just to Keith -- but then realized that the list as a
whole might be curious --

At 04:28 PM 7/12/2001 +0900, you wrote:
>Hi Peter
>
>Thanks very much for this, below - very interesting. I forwarded it
>to our Biofuels list, which has a lot of people interested in/doing
>ethanol, and quite a lot of members in places where they grow sugar.
>Let's see what they make of it.
>
>Thanks again
>
>Best
>
>Keith Addison
>Journey to Forever
>http://journeytoforever.org/
>

Hi Keith,

Sure -- no problems send it where you want.

The art of making this cane wine, called "Balche" in Yucatec Maya language,
is ancient -- and is mentioned in many historical records. An incredible
story actually.

When Bishop Landa decided to ban (About 1535) the production and
consumption (as a heathen practice) the result was a loss of 80% of the
Mayan -- which was directly attributed to loss of health due to loss of
this wine.

Then to -- check the bible --

1 Timothy; Chapter 5; Verse 23

(The older the bible -- the clearer the reference -- later bibles being
"revised" to correct obvious mistakes of God -- such as encouraging the
drinking of alcoholic beverages.)

Today we grudgingly admit some of the health benefits of wine consumption
-- but Balche is exceptionally great for one's health. Probably due to the
minerals -- etc -- extracted in this boiling process --

Balche is no longer made here -- even though this all happened 472 years
ago!! The Church did such a good job on that! Took it totally out of the
culture (along with eating dog meat -- and numerous other cultural sundries)

So during my studies of ancient Mayan medicines -- I came across Balche --
and spent 5 years rediscovering and perfecting the process.

Also of interest -- Tequila is made by boiling the Agave plant and
fermenting that liquor.

After a few years of successful production -- I drew up plans for making a
larger operation.

I ran into trouble with the local laws of the land -- anything to do with
alcoholic beverages is strictly controlled -- so never went further.

I could establish this "winery" in a free zone here -- but all countries
are extremely adverse to allowing "new" alcoholic drinks entering their
market places.

The boiled liquor ferments so easily!! And cane is so economic a plant to
make "wine" from. I doubt there is an easier -- surer -- process know to man.

This wine is also "nutritious" and would go a very long ways in feeding the
poor (and keeping them happy)

Of course -- from wine one can make ethanol.

Are you informed on the new extraction processes that Tom hinted at?? I'll
post some info on that to the Gas list -- soon as I find it in my files.

Peter / Belize

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From snkm at btl.net Thu Jul 12 12:55:04 2001
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:29 2004
Subject: GAS-L: dual-fuel concept for 95% subbing gas for diesel fuel
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20010712102543.008d9210@wgs1.btl.net>

At 12:23 PM 7/11/2001 -0700, you wrote:
>>>>

Generally speaking the properties of Natural-gas and producer-gas are so
similar in terms of combustion compatibility as well as energy content per
unit vol of stroke volume that it must work. This is a direct experience
and also there is enough information on this. I do not agree to the
statement that Producer-gas will not work as much as Natural gas.

Mrs Parikh
>>>>>>>

Hello Prof. Parikh;

I believe the problem is with to many other gaseous contaminants in the
product for fuel cell operation.

We would have to go exclusively with steam reformation.

By chance -- that is what the present fuel cell industry is using as front
end -- a steam reformation process.

So eventually -- we can pick up an automotive fuel cell -- operating on
gasoline -- and apply that steam reformation processing device to biomasses.

Probably by simply dissolving the biomass into a carrier -- filtering --
and direct replacement of the gasoline. The solvent recovered later.

Because the movers and shakers in the biomass"Gasification" industry are
not interested in steam reformation -- only partial combustion gasification.

Ergo -- it is up to the global automotive industry to develop the apparatus
for "proper" gasification of biomasses. We can do little but wait. It
certainly will not be happening any day soon on this mail list!

Where the moto is:

WWII gasifiers forever!!

This attitude will not be stopping steam reformation of biomasses in
becoming the preferred method at some date in the future. It does result in
wasting so much time and development in futile pursuits -- however.

But then -- all "new" technological "entries" always have so many dead ends
along the development trip.

So we must wait for the car makers to show us how --

If they can build small compact units to steam reform gasoline into syngas
for automobile auxiliary electrical needs -- doing the same with biomasses
is not far behind. After everyone on this list has been operating a car
with a fuel cell as described -- they "may" eventually start experimenting.

But I'm not holding my breath!

Peter

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From LINVENT at aol.com Thu Jul 12 15:56:43 2001
From: LINVENT at aol.com (LINVENT@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:29 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Coalgasification
Message-ID: <33.17b3f25b.287f5a6c@aol.com>

Peter and others,
Not only is green fascism a problem, but safety fascism is another one.
The group who was responsible for putting to death selected hordes in the
French Revolution was the Committee for Public Safety. Think about this forms
of creeping tyranny when you are not allowed to smoke anywhere, have to wear
a seat belt, cannot use a hand held cellphone when driving etc. etc..
Any of these forms of tyranny represent a step into the dark ages.
Science becomes ignored as do the facts, and knee jerk radicalism is the
order of the day. Hence all the arguments about emissions, comparative
environmental aspects are ignored.

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From snkm at btl.net Thu Jul 12 17:45:03 2001
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:29 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Coalgasification
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20010712153916.009c3790@wgs1.btl.net>

It goes much further to! They arrested and incarcerated a Chinese family
here last week for eating cat meat!! All in the name of "for the public
good". To the people here -- this is great news -- and they are all
excited!! The "mobs" love it -- mostly because they hate the Chinese -- who
seem to work hard and profit where the locals here have all gotten lazy and
poor.

So now -- food police!!

Are we getting to fat and to stupid or what?

Peter

At 03:54 PM 7/12/2001 EDT, you wrote:
>Peter and others,
> Not only is green fascism a problem, but safety fascism is another one.
>The group who was responsible for putting to death selected hordes in the
>French Revolution was the Committee for Public Safety. Think about this
forms
>of creeping tyranny when you are not allowed to smoke anywhere, have to wear
>a seat belt, cannot use a hand held cellphone when driving etc. etc..
> Any of these forms of tyranny represent a step into the dark ages.
>Science becomes ignored as do the facts, and knee jerk radicalism is the
>order of the day. Hence all the arguments about emissions, comparative
>environmental aspects are ignored.
>
>Sincerely,
>Leland T. Taylor
> President
> Thermogenics Inc.
>7100-2nd St. NW, Albuquerque, New Mexico 87107
>phone 505-761-1454 fax 505-761-1456
>Attached files are zipped and can be decompressed with <A
>HREF="http://www.aladdinsys.com/expander/">www.aladdinsys.com/expander/ </A>
>
>-
>Gasification List Archives:
>http://www.crest.org/discussion/gasification/current/
>
>Gasification List Moderator:
>Tom Reed, Biomass Energy Foundation, Reedtb2@cs.com
>www.webpan.com/BEF
>
>Sponsor the Gasification List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html
>-
>Other Gasification Events and Information:
>http://www.fsec.ucf.edu/bioam/
>http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml
>http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
>
>

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From tbollman at twlakes.net Thu Jul 12 18:56:06 2001
From: tbollman at twlakes.net (Tim Bollman)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:29 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Coalgasification
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20010712153916.009c3790@wgs1.btl.net>
Message-ID: <3B4E35A6.000003.51055@default>

<TD id=INCREDITEXTREGION width="100%" style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; PADDING-LEFT: 7px; PADDING-RIGHT: 7px"
>
Peter,

I just had occasion to re-read some info you have web posted about
your butane based uniflow engine. In that location you asserted that you
had done some calculations that indicated it would produce enough energy
from the Delta T of an ordinary solar water heater to be useful. Would you
consider posting those rough calcs here?

Further into that article you posited that you had made a linear
alternator out of a "normal" automobile alternator, cool!

Given that experience, and the the fact that a double-opposed linear
piston engine is so easy to fabricate and seal. Also seems intuitive that
the efficiency of this engine design would by far superior to any other
I've seen. Does this not seem to be the absolute best combination of "low
tech" and reliability for third world electrical production? Additionally,
I'm curious how you "brushed" the linear alternator?

Now as to the rest of the thoughts expressed in the Emails I am
replying too;

After banning driving with out a seat-belt, killing cats(the other
white meat) for food, et al. Think how bad the Green Fascists will be on
me for making an explosive gas (methane) rather than dumping my humanure
in a septic system. And G-d forbid they ever find out that I use
that gas to produce unregulated, un-taxed, electricity.

-------Original Message-------

From: <A
href="mailto:snkm@btl.net">Peter Singfield
Date: Thursday, July
12, 2001 03:42:59 PM
To: <A
href="mailto:gasification@crest.org">gasification@crest.org
Subject: Re: GAS-L:
Coalgasification
It goes much further to! They arrested and incarcerated a
Chinese familyhere last week for eating cat meat!! All in the name of
"for the publicgood". To the people here -- this is great news -- and
they are allexcited!! The "mobs" love it -- mostly because they hate
the Chinese -- whoseem to work hard and profit where the locals here
have all gotten lazy andpoor.So now -- food
police!!Are we getting to fat and to stupid or
what?PeterAt 03:54 PM 7/12/2001 EDT, you
wrote:>Peter and others,> Not only is green fascism a
problem, but safety fascism is another one. >The group who was
responsible for putting to death selected hordes in the >French
Revolution was the Committee for Public Safety. Think about thisforms
>of creeping tyranny when you are not allowed to smoke anywhere,
have to wear >a seat belt, cannot use a hand held cellphone when
driving etc. etc..> Any of these forms of tyranny represent a step
into the dark ages. >Science becomes ignored as do the facts, and
knee jerk radicalism is the >order of the day. Hence all the
arguments about emissions, comparative >environmental aspects are
ignored. >>Sincerely,>Leland T. Taylor>
President> Thermogenics Inc. >7100-2nd St. NW, Albuquerque,
New Mexico 87107 >phone 505-761-1454 fax
505-761-1456>Attached files are zipped and can be decompressed with
<A
>HREF="http://www.aladdinsys.com/expander/">www.aladdinsys.com/expander/
</A>>>->Gasification List
Archives:>http://www.crest.org/discussion/gasification/current/>>Gasification
List Moderator:>Tom Reed, Biomass Energy Foundation,
Reedtb2@cs.com>www.webpan.com/BEF>>Sponsor the
Gasification List:
http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html>->Other Gasification
Events and
Information:>http://www.fsec.ucf.edu/bioam/>http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml>http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/>>-Gasification
List
Archives:http://www.crest.org/discussion/gasification/current/Gasification
List Moderator:Tom Reed, Biomass Energy Foundation,
Reedtb2@cs.comwww.webpan.com/BEFSponsor the Gasification List:
http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html-Other Gasification Events and
Information:http://www.fsec.ucf.edu/bioam/http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtmlhttp://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/

_________________________________________________IncrediMail - Email has finally
evolved - Click
Here

From keith at journeytoforever.org Thu Jul 12 23:58:51 2001
From: keith at journeytoforever.org (Keith Addison)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:29 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Balche -- Mayan wine derived from boiler sugar cane
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20010712100337.009c4a20@wgs1.btl.net>
Message-ID: <v04210104b77422365fde@[192.168.0.200]>

Hi Peter

Interesting story - it's said we're the first human generation to
lose more knowledge than we've gained. Yet another case.

<snip>
>
>Are you informed on the new extraction processes that Tom hinted at??

No - though there's a roundup here:
http://journeytoforever.org/ethanol_link.html#cellulose

>I'll
>post some info on that to the Gas list -- soon as I find it in my files.

Yes please!

Thanks again

Keith Addison

>Peter / Belize

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From A.Weststeijn at epz.nl Fri Jul 13 05:03:16 2001
From: A.Weststeijn at epz.nl (Weststeijn A)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:29 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Coalgasification
Message-ID: <E1780666C205D211B6740008C728DBFE9F50C6@sp0016.epz.nl>

Alright, this requires a respons to level this discussion and back away from
the extremes. I'll have to slip in a semi-political comment here and there
to counter the easy use of the word fascism.

Leland Taylor writes in respons to Peter Singfield:
> Not only is green fascism a problem, but safety fascism is another one.
>
Any form of fascism requires a respons, simply since it is the opposite of
tolerance towards the individual. Beware of those who act in the name of
collectivism....

But then, now defining "safety fascism" is pushing it (as well as talking
about green fascism in the first place, as far as I am concerned). Fascism
is too heavy a word to those who suffered from it (to which I don't belong
fortunately).
Why not simply discuss differences of opinion on green and safety issues for
what they are: opinions on how far one should go and how fast one should
act.

> The group who was responsible for putting to death selected hordes in the
> French Revolution was the Committee for Public Safety.
>
And, now we are at it, what was the name of the McCarthy Committee again?
This shining example of tolerance? It is never hard to find counter
examples. Talk about fascism...

> Think about this forms of creeping tyranny when you are not allowed to
> smoke anywhere,
>
I bet you may smoke everywhere where you don't infringe on the individual
living sphere of others. I could probably find a fitting article in the US
Constitution.

> have to wear a seat belt, cannot use a hand held cellphone when driving
> etc. etc..
>
I bet you would not be limited in this respect if all the costs incurred
could be taken out of your inheritage. But society gets stuck with it.
That's why motorcycling helmets come in handy: society not having to pay for
years of institutionalizing after hitting that curb.
By the way, it appears that you are still allowed to operate a handgun.
Talking about something unsafe at any speed.... So, fortunately for some,
the loophole for statistically unsafe individual behaviour is still
liberally at hand..... so why complain.

> Any of these forms of tyranny represent a step into the dark ages.
>
So let's be cautious and on the look-out for traits towards real tyranny.
And reserve that word for cases where human lives are at stake by unwieldy
political power play. And not confuse that with relatively normal
differences of opinion in an open and civilized society (as I hope we have).

> Science becomes ignored as do the facts, and knee jerk radicalism is the
> order of the day. Hence all the arguments about emissions, comparative
> environmental aspects are ignored.
>
Yes, I too see and have seen science and facts ignored, as well as
radicalism applied.
I have had years of working in nuclear and have seen radicalism close by,
both in debate and in physical actions.
Now we see new radicalism applied in the anti-missile defense initiative.
Not from Green Peace this time, to make myself clear.

Unfortunately, even science is not always free-of-values as real academia
requires. Science has always been, and still is, used, including
politically, and from what I see scientists are not anymore above
manipulation than any other profession, or walk of life.

Looking for absolute truths often remains chasing a rainbow, simply since
society at large is dynamic.
To me another mechanism from academia seems useful in finding out if the
current compass heading is correct. In fact, this List operates to an extent
in such a way. It is the peer review. That allows both room for communis
opinion on facts as for personal believe as to how best to proceed.

So, before labeling opinions as fascism, bring idea's and positions out in
the open and let others shoot at it. Then take your responsibility and
choose yourself without hurting your fellow beings. Should go a long way.

best regards,
Andries Weststeijn

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From tombreed at home.com Fri Jul 13 10:05:46 2001
From: tombreed at home.com (Thomas Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:29 2004
Subject: GAS-L: How about "Pendulum Extremes"
In-Reply-To: <E1780666C205D211B6740008C728DBFE9F50C6@sp0016.epz.nl>
Message-ID: <023e01c10ba2$b5220e40$18e5b618@lakwod3.co.home.com>

Dear Andreis, Tom Taylor and all:

It has been my observation that humans seldom home in on the "correct" level
of law and government, except by going beyond what is sensible, and ideally
eventually homing in on the most appropriate level for the greatest number
of people.

I agree with many of Tom Taylor's examples of excess and could give more.
But I agree even more with Andreis' recommendation for less inflamatory
language in this forum. So I hope we can all guide the pendulums of
decision to sensible levels.....

Yours truly, TOM REED BEF/CPC

Dr. Thomas Reed
The Biomass Energy Foundation
1810 Smith Rd., Golden, CO 80401
303 278 0558; tombreed@home.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Weststeijn A" <A.Weststeijn@epz.nl>
To: <gasification@crest.org>; "'=Mr Leland Taylor'" <LINVENT@aol.com>
Sent: Friday, July 13, 2001 3:00 AM
Subject: RE: GAS-L: Coalgasification

> Alright, this requires a respons to level this discussion and back away
from
> the extremes. I'll have to slip in a semi-political comment here and there
> to counter the easy use of the word fascism.
>
> Leland Taylor writes in respons to Peter Singfield:
> > Not only is green fascism a problem, but safety fascism is another one.
> >
> Any form of fascism requires a respons, simply since it is the opposite of
> tolerance towards the individual. Beware of those who act in the name of
> collectivism....
>
> But then, now defining "safety fascism" is pushing it (as well as talking
> about green fascism in the first place, as far as I am concerned).
Fascism
> is too heavy a word to those who suffered from it (to which I don't belong
> fortunately).
> Why not simply discuss differences of opinion on green and safety issues
for
> what they are: opinions on how far one should go and how fast one should
> act.
>
> > The group who was responsible for putting to death selected hordes in
the
> > French Revolution was the Committee for Public Safety.
> >
> And, now we are at it, what was the name of the McCarthy Committee again?
> This shining example of tolerance? It is never hard to find counter
> examples. Talk about fascism...
>
> > Think about this forms of creeping tyranny when you are not allowed to
> > smoke anywhere,
> >
> I bet you may smoke everywhere where you don't infringe on the individual
> living sphere of others. I could probably find a fitting article in the US
> Constitution.
>
> > have to wear a seat belt, cannot use a hand held cellphone when driving
> > etc. etc..
> >
> I bet you would not be limited in this respect if all the costs incurred
> could be taken out of your inheritage. But society gets stuck with it.
> That's why motorcycling helmets come in handy: society not having to pay
for
> years of institutionalizing after hitting that curb.
> By the way, it appears that you are still allowed to operate a handgun.
> Talking about something unsafe at any speed.... So, fortunately for some,
> the loophole for statistically unsafe individual behaviour is still
> liberally at hand..... so why complain.
>
> > Any of these forms of tyranny represent a step into the dark ages.
> >
> So let's be cautious and on the look-out for traits towards real tyranny.
> And reserve that word for cases where human lives are at stake by unwieldy
> political power play. And not confuse that with relatively normal
> differences of opinion in an open and civilized society (as I hope we
have).
>
> > Science becomes ignored as do the facts, and knee jerk radicalism is the
> > order of the day. Hence all the arguments about emissions, comparative
> > environmental aspects are ignored.
> >
> Yes, I too see and have seen science and facts ignored, as well as
> radicalism applied.
> I have had years of working in nuclear and have seen radicalism close by,
> both in debate and in physical actions.
> Now we see new radicalism applied in the anti-missile defense initiative.
> Not from Green Peace this time, to make myself clear.
>
> Unfortunately, even science is not always free-of-values as real academia
> requires. Science has always been, and still is, used, including
> politically, and from what I see scientists are not anymore above
> manipulation than any other profession, or walk of life.
>
> Looking for absolute truths often remains chasing a rainbow, simply since
> society at large is dynamic.
> To me another mechanism from academia seems useful in finding out if the
> current compass heading is correct. In fact, this List operates to an
extent
> in such a way. It is the peer review. That allows both room for communis
> opinion on facts as for personal believe as to how best to proceed.
>
> So, before labeling opinions as fascism, bring idea's and positions out in
> the open and let others shoot at it. Then take your responsibility and
> choose yourself without hurting your fellow beings. Should go a long way.
>
> best regards,
> Andries Weststeijn
>
>
> -
> Gasification List Archives:
> http://www.crest.org/discussion/gasification/current/
>
> Gasification List Moderator:
> Tom Reed, Biomass Energy Foundation, Reedtb2@cs.com
> www.webpan.com/BEF
>
> Sponsor the Gasification List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html
> -
> Other Gasification Events and Information:
> http://www.fsec.ucf.edu/bioam/
> http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml
> http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
>

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From snkm at btl.net Fri Jul 13 10:38:23 2001
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:29 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Coalgasification
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20010713083336.0098caa0@wgs1.btl.net>

At 11:00 AM 7/13/2001 +0200, you wrote:
>Alright, this requires a respons to level this discussion and back away from
>the extremes. I'll have to slip in a semi-political comment here and there
>to counter the easy use of the word fascism.
>
>Leland Taylor writes in respons to Peter Singfield:
>> Not only is green fascism a problem, but safety fascism is another one.
>>

********snipped********

Andries;

I am re-reading -- for the 3rd or 4rth time -- one of my favorite books:

The Cross of Iron -- by Willi Heinrich -- ISBN 0-553-11135-3

It is a great read -- about the Germans in Russia during WWII -- the final
retreat.

Of personal interest to me as all 3 of my uncles stayed there!! Part of the
German army that did not make it back -- which was the most part.

The point is this --

Rulers tend to appease the mobs as much as possible to gain "power" --
bankrupting the system in the process -- which always results in a
situation so well described in this book -- all out war.

So your society has no guns now -- and you feel that makes it safer -- yet
all our modern societies are bankrupting the planet and that can only lead
to a war.

We have to draw the line of government looking after the individual.

For instance -- there are no social programs (by government) in this area
-- never has been -- and people do OK.

Now -- that must be hard for such a social system coddled person as your
self to understand?

I abhor societies where the Government rather than family infrastructure
look after the needs of the "people".

You'll understand this all much better after the next war gets started -
-which will occur when resources are to seriously over extended for social
system government to support any longer.

I am surprised at your naivety!

I believe Hitler used the same logic you are referring to -- and look where
that got the world last turn of this same wheel!

Rule of the mob for their own self benefit never works for long.

Read the book -- put yourself in any of the Characters places -- while they
last -- get used to your new European future life style.

Or -- are you simply of that belief "It can't happen here"?? (again)

My belief is different -- what has gone down before tends to repeat itself
-- especially when the same circumstances as before exist and are handled
in the same manner as before.

So we blow it all up -- and try to start over in a better direction --
hoping we do not repeat the same mistakes again. But hey -- this time we
are repeating -- maybe next time??

The only question is how many times before people learn?? Are we just an
experiment of nature gone bad a doomed to eventual self extinction of the
entire species??

I also like the book "Planet of the Apes"

The last place I want to be when the excrement hits the proverbial fan is
in a well socialized society -- waiting in an endless line-up -- hoping for
enough food to sustain my existence for one more day.

I am much happier here -- where we understand how to grow our own food
rather than depend on a government to supply it to us. And especially when
times get rough.

They say Global economic meltdown by next spring -- we'll see how your
socialist societies handle everything then -- it is a little premature to
go preaching the good socialism life at this point.

Peter / Belize

*******************************
Since the days of revelation, in fact, the same four corrupting
factors have been made over and over again: submission to faulty
and unworthy authority; submission to what it was customary to
believe; submission to the prejudices of the mob; and worst of
all, concealment of ignorance by a false show of unheld knowledge,
for no better reason than pride.
-Roger Bacon
*******************************

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From snkm at btl.net Fri Jul 13 10:39:15 2001
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:29 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Coalgasification
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20010713083226.00993610@wgs1.btl.net>

Hi Tim;

I have shifted away from that line of endeavor at present -- going with
higher heat inputs -- as in direct combustion of fuel. Higher temps for
higher efficiencies.

But here are two sights that will give you good information on what you are
asking.

Butane cycle solar power:

http://www.sterlingsolar.com/engines.htm

All about linear alternators:

http://www.sunpower.com/tech_papers/

Browse around that last sight well -- you'll get a lot of good ideas on how
to proceed with this design -- that is a simple reciprocating cylinder
device with no crank-shaft -- that can make electrical power.

Peter Singfield / Belize

At 05:41 PM 7/12/2001 -0600, you wrote:
>>>>
> Peter, I just had occasion to re-read some info
you have web posted about your butane based uniflow engine. In that
location you asserted that you had done some calculations that
indicated it would produce enough energy from the Delta T of an
ordinary solar water heater to be useful. Would you consider posting
those rough calcs here? Further into that article you posited
that you had made a linear alternator out of a "normal" automobile
alternator, cool! Given that experience, and the the fact
that a double-opposed linear piston engine is so easy to fabricate
and seal. Also seems intuitive that the efficiency of this engine
design would by far superior to any other I've seen. Does this not
seem to be the absolute best combination of "low tech" and
reliability for third world electrical production? Additionally, I'm
curious how you "brushed" the linear alternator? Now as to
the rest of the thoughts expressed in the Emails I am replying too;
After banning driving with out a seat-belt, killing cats(the
other white meat) for food, et al. Think how bad the Green Fascists
will be on me for making an explosive gas (methane) rather than
dumping my humanure in a septic system. And G-d forbid they ever
find out that I use that gas to produce unregulated, un-taxed,
electricity. -------Original Message-------
From: Peter Singfield Date: Thursday, July 12,
2001 03:42:59 PM To: gasification@crest.org Subject: Re: GAS-L:
Coalgasification It goes much further to! They arrested and
incarcerated a Chinese family
here last week for eating cat meat!! All in the name of "for the public
good". To the people here -- this is great news -- and they are all
excited!! The "mobs" love it -- mostly because they hate the Chinese
-- who
seem to work hard and profit where the locals here have all gotten
lazy and
poor.

So now -- food police!!

Are we getting to fat and to stupid or what?

Peter

At 03:54 PM 7/12/2001 EDT, you wrote:
>Peter and others,
> Not only is green fascism a problem, but safety fascism is another
one.
>The group who was responsible for putting to death selected hordes
in the
>French Revolution was the Committee for Public Safety. Think about
this
forms
>of creeping tyranny when you are not allowed to smoke anywhere,
have to wear
>a seat belt, cannot use a hand held cellphone when driving etc. etc..
> Any of these forms of tyranny represent a step into the dark ages.
>Science becomes ignored as do the facts, and knee jerk radicalism
is the
>order of the day. Hence all the arguments about emissions,
comparative
>environmental aspects are ignored.
>
>Sincerely,
>Leland T. Taylor
> President
> Thermogenics Inc.
>7100-2nd St. NW, Albuquerque, New Mexico 87107
>phone 505-761-1454 fax 505-761-1456
>Attached files are zipped and can be decompressed with <A
>HREF="http://www.aladdinsys.com/expander/">www.aladdinsys.com/expander/
</A>
>
>-
>Gasification List Archives:
>http://www.crest.org/discussion/gasification/current/
>
>Gasification List Moderator:
>Tom Reed, Biomass Energy Foundation, Reedtb2@cs.com
>www.webpan.com/BEF
>
>Sponsor the Gasification List:
http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html
>-
>Other Gasification Events and Information:
>http://www.fsec.ucf.edu/bioam/
>http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml
>http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
>
>

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From snkm at btl.net Fri Jul 13 12:51:13 2001
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:30 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Synthesizing alcohol -- and how to purify after.
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20010713104611.009992a0@wgs1.btl.net>

At 01:04 PM 7/13/2001 +0900, you wrote:
>Hi Peter
>
>Interesting story - it's said we're the first human generation to
>lose more knowledge than we've gained. Yet another case.
>
><snip>
>>
>>Are you informed on the new extraction processes that Tom hinted at??
>
>No - though there's a roundup here:
>http://journeytoforever.org/ethanol_link.html#cellulose
>
>>I'll
>>post some info on that to the Gas list -- soon as I find it in my files.
>
>Yes please!
>
>Thanks again
>
>Keith Addison
>

Keith -- here is the Url:

http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/eth_separate.html

That is from your sight!! Surprise surprise???

You have two examples there -- pastes in below --

And also -- you have this over there as well:

http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/Mariller.html

"Absolute alcohol using glycerine"

Listers -- why are "we" interested?? Well, in the beginning of this thread
I quoted an old message posted to this list by Tom Reed on the subject. And
Notice Tom taylor's interest as well.

Why??

Because hypothetically gasification of biomass is the best way to make
alcohol -- which is becoming the popular new wave fuel. And purifying this
product is of utmost importance! Ergo -- this alternative "separation"
technology schemes.

I do have one valid question -- in partial combustion systems not operating
in a pure O2 atmosphere -- does all that Nitrogen screw up the
"reformation" or what??

And that leaves us with the one alternative -- that the car makers have so
readily embraced -- gasifying through steam reformation. The hidden member
of this gasification mail list -- locked up in a closet -- not to be
considered -- why?

The gas produced by steam reformation is much better for synthesis of
alcohol than partial combustion gasification can achieve.

And even in the partial combustion process -- what synthesis gas is
produced is due to "steam" that is present doing steam reformation. If you
try to gasify biomass that is 100% dry -- very poor "product" results.

So go figure -- guess we wait for the car makers to show us how??

Peter / Belize

Separating Ethanol From Water Via Differential Solubility
Alcohol for combustion could be purified more economically

Langley Research Center, Hampton, Virginia

THE differential solubility of sulfur in ethanol and water could be
exploited to separate ethanol from water. The energy that could be produced
by burning the separated ethanol would be more than that required in the
separation process. In contrast, the separation of a small amount of
ethanol (actually an ethanol/water solution poor in ethanol) from water by
distillation requires more energy than can be produced by burning the
resulting distillate. The proposed alcohol/water separation process could
be exploited industrially to produce clean fuel from fermented vegetable
matter.

In one version of this concept, sulfur would be added to an ethanol/water
mixture: a slight amount of sulfur that depends on the temperature of the
mixture would be dissolved by the ethanol. (All three forms of sulfur are
insoluble in water, even at its boiling temperature, but the a form of
sulfur is slightly soluble in ethanol and the b form is more soluble in
ethanol, according to the CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics.) The
sulfur/ethanol mixture would settle to the bottom of the container, where
it could be bled off. This small part of the original mixture could then be
heated to separate the volatile ethanol from the significantly less
volatile sulfur. The hot sulfur left after the distillation could be added
to another batch of the ethanol/water mixture.

In comparison with the energy consumed in the conventional distillation
process, a significant amount of energy would be saved in this process
because only the small bled-off portion of the original mixture would have
to be heated. Because of its solubility in ethanol, the b form of sulfur
would be used when the separation process was carried out at room
temperature and atmospheric pressure. Finely divided sulfur that was not
dissolved by the ethanol would float on the mixture.

In an alternative version of this concept, the ethanol/water/sulfur mixture
would be placed in a retort, where it could be heated and pressurized to a
temperature above the critical temperature and pressure of ethanol [243 deg
C and 63 atm (6.4 MPa), respectively] but below the critical temperature
and pressure of water [374.1 deg C and 218.3 atm (22.12 MPa),
respectively]. The mixture would be retorted at a temperature slightly
above 243 deg C and at a pressure slightly above 63 atm (6.4 MPa), putting
the ethanol in the supercritical state, in which it should easily dissolve
all three forms of sulfur (including the form which is insoluble at ambient
temperature and pressure). The water, on the other hand, would still be
well below its critical state and still should not dissolve sulfur. The
sulfur/ethanol mixture would settle to the bottom of the retort, where it
could be piped away under pressure and at high temperature. The
sulfur/ethanol mixture would then be expanded to a lower temperature and
pressure at which not as much sulfur could be dissolved in the ethanol and
at which ethanol would partially separate from the mixture.

Further heating of the remaining mixture at a pressure of 1 atm (0.1 MPa)
would separate most of the remaining ethanol and sulfur. The sulfur could
be reused, and the high-pressure hot water could be used to cook more mash
to be fermented or to preheat a charge going to another retort. This second
version is probably the most suitable for an industrial process, and could
be aided by the addition of a centrifuge to separate the initial two-phase
mixture. The role of sulfur in both versions could be played by another
substance. However, the low toxicity and very low vapor pressure of sulfur
at the boiling temperature of ethanol appear to make it the best candidate.

This work was done by Renaldo V. Jenkins of Langley Research Center. No
further documentation is available. LAR-14894

*********2nd example********

Separating Ethanol From Water Via Differential Miscibility

The differential miscibility of castor oil in ethanol and water would be
exploited to separate ethanol from water, according to a proposal. Burning
the separated ethanol would produce more energy than would be consumed in
the separation process. In contrast, the separation of a small amount of
ethanol (actually an ethanol/water solution poor in ethanol) from water by
the conventional process of distillation requires more energy than can be
produced by burning the resulting distillate. As in the process described
in the preceding article, "Separating Ethanol From Water Via Differential
Solubility" (LAR-14894), the proposed alcohol/water separation process
could be exploited industrially to produce clean fuel from fermented
vegetable matter.

In one version of this process, castor oil would be added to an
ethanol/water solution. The ethanol would mix freely with castor oil, which
is insoluble in water. The resulting ethanol/castor-oil phase, which would
contain less than 1 percent water, would collect as the top layer, the
bottom layer being the remainder of the ethanol/water solution somewhat
depleted in ethanol. Heating this two-layer mixture to a temperature
slightly below the boiling temperature of ethanol (78.5 deg C) would cause
the partial pressure of ethanol above the top layer to be much greater than
the partial pressure of either castor oil or water. This vapor-phase
ethanol could be condensed in a relatively pure state.

Although heating an isolated ethanol/water solution like that in the bottom
layer would normally raise the vapor pressure of both ethanol and water
above the solution, this would not be the case in the presence of the top
castor-oil/ethanol layer for the following reasons: The amount of water
that could dissolve in the top castor-oil/ethanol layer would increase only
slightly upon heating. On the other hand, ethanol could readily cross the
interface between the two layers and enter the top layer. As long as the
total mix was kept at a temperature below the boiling temperature of
ethanol (thereby preventing agitation of the layers by boiling), the
diffusion of water through the castor-oil/ethanol phase would be inhibited.

In an alternative version of this concept, the upper castor-oil/ethanol
layer would be skimmed off and heated to obtain the ethanol. Once the
ethanol was driven off, the castor oil could be returned to an
ethanol/water solution to dissolve more ethanol to repeat the process. This
concept could readily lend itself to a continuous process. Substances other
than castor oil (one of its components perhaps, or another substance) could
be used in this process or to extract other compounds from other mixtures
by using this upper-of-two-phases vaporization technique.

This work was done by Renaldo V. Jenkins of Langley Research Center. No
further documentation is available. LAR-14895

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From A.Weststeijn at epz.nl Fri Jul 13 16:05:48 2001
From: A.Weststeijn at epz.nl (Weststeijn A)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:30 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Coalgasification
Message-ID: <E1780666C205D211B6740008C728DBFE9F50CF@sp0016.epz.nl>

Peter,

To prevent those terrible things -you keep predicting- from happening (i.e.
the world melt down), an adequate amount of organization and communication
needs to remain in place.

As for organization:
some type of majority rule -as we sport now- better stay in place, and can
be perfected from within, as regional populations see fit.
I don't think it is a good idea to start from scratch again. Last century's
experiments with newly invented political systems were less than a success.

As for communication:
not only between countries, but also between factions within single
countries, including groups with differing views on green policies.
Branding people with differing (green) views with very strong language at an
early stage does not help in building broad public support for the
sustainable cause. It increases the chance for a deep rift in society
followed by a stalemate. Somewhat similar as we have seen happening with
nuclear power for almost 3 decades. Should go different this time by keeping
more people "on board".

I know very well that there are some extreme people around, but we should
not label those "green" if they really are mere professional extremists
regardless of cause.

On the other -historical- points I prefer to reply directly.

best regards,
Andries Weststeijn

> ----------
> Van: Peter Singfield[SMTP:snkm@btl.net]
> Verzonden: vrijdag 13 juli 2001 15:34
> Aan: gasification@crest.org
> Onderwerp: RE: GAS-L: Coalgasification
>
> At 11:00 AM 7/13/2001 +0200, you wrote:
> >Alright, this requires a respons to level this discussion and back away
> from
> >the extremes. I'll have to slip in a semi-political comment here and
> there
> >to counter the easy use of the word fascism.
> >
> >Leland Taylor writes in respons to Peter Singfield:
> >> Not only is green fascism a problem, but safety fascism is another one.
>
> >>
>
> ********snipped********
>
> Andries;
>
> I am re-reading -- for the 3rd or 4rth time -- one of my favorite books:
>
> The Cross of Iron -- by Willi Heinrich -- ISBN 0-553-11135-3
>
> It is a great read -- about the Germans in Russia during WWII -- the final
> retreat.
>
> Of personal interest to me as all 3 of my uncles stayed there!! Part of
> the
> German army that did not make it back -- which was the most part.
>
> The point is this --
>
> Rulers tend to appease the mobs as much as possible to gain "power" --
> bankrupting the system in the process -- which always results in a
> situation so well described in this book -- all out war.
>
> So your society has no guns now -- and you feel that makes it safer -- yet
> all our modern societies are bankrupting the planet and that can only lead
> to a war.
>
> We have to draw the line of government looking after the individual.
>
> For instance -- there are no social programs (by government) in this area
> -- never has been -- and people do OK.
>
> Now -- that must be hard for such a social system coddled person as your
> self to understand?
>
> I abhor societies where the Government rather than family infrastructure
> look after the needs of the "people".
>
> You'll understand this all much better after the next war gets started -
> -which will occur when resources are to seriously over extended for social
> system government to support any longer.
>
> I am surprised at your naivety!
>
> I believe Hitler used the same logic you are referring to -- and look
> where
> that got the world last turn of this same wheel!
>
> Rule of the mob for their own self benefit never works for long.
>
> Read the book -- put yourself in any of the Characters places -- while
> they
> last -- get used to your new European future life style.
>
> Or -- are you simply of that belief "It can't happen here"?? (again)
>
> My belief is different -- what has gone down before tends to repeat itself
> -- especially when the same circumstances as before exist and are handled
> in the same manner as before.
>
> So we blow it all up -- and try to start over in a better direction --
> hoping we do not repeat the same mistakes again. But hey -- this time we
> are repeating -- maybe next time??
>
> The only question is how many times before people learn?? Are we just an
> experiment of nature gone bad a doomed to eventual self extinction of the
> entire species??
>
> I also like the book "Planet of the Apes"
>
> The last place I want to be when the excrement hits the proverbial fan is
> in a well socialized society -- waiting in an endless line-up -- hoping
> for
> enough food to sustain my existence for one more day.
>
> I am much happier here -- where we understand how to grow our own food
> rather than depend on a government to supply it to us. And especially when
> times get rough.
>
> They say Global economic meltdown by next spring -- we'll see how your
> socialist societies handle everything then -- it is a little premature to
> go preaching the good socialism life at this point.
>
> Peter / Belize
>
> *******************************
> Since the days of revelation, in fact, the same four corrupting
> factors have been made over and over again: submission to faulty
> and unworthy authority; submission to what it was customary to
> believe; submission to the prejudices of the mob; and worst of
> all, concealment of ignorance by a false show of unheld knowledge,
> for no better reason than pride.
> -Roger Bacon
> *******************************
>
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>
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>
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>

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From snkm at btl.net Fri Jul 13 16:53:09 2001
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:30 2004
Subject: GAS-L: The ulimate small gasifier??
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20010713144632.00793c90@wgs1.btl.net>

OK listers ---

Want to see what can be done with gasification of biomass for electrical
power production?

With a little help of from inovative technology.

Tom Reed -- your going to just love this example -- from South Africa --

http://www.sunpower.com/tech_papers/pub76/isec99.html

And get this folks:

Overall efficiency (electric out/heat in) 23.0%

Plus 40,000 hour operation -- maintenance free!!

What more??

Peter Singfield / Belize / Central America

************excerpt*************

Burner

BiowattTM biomass pellet burners take advantage of two-stage combustion to
insure high temperature combustion with minimal emissions. The burner is
comprised of a fuel hopper, a gasifier, a fuel-air mixing and burn tube, a
secondary burn-heat transfer section, an exhaust gas recuperator, and the
final stack. Burners optimized for chunk wood differ in a number of ways,
including the fuel hopper and gasifier details. Figure 2 shows a schematic
of the pellet burner.

The fuel hopper stores sufficient fuel for the generator to run without
attention for up to 6 hours. For longer periods of operation, a separate
fuel store and auger feed can be used. The hopper includes a gasifier
(gasification zone) in which the volatiles are driven off by heat from the
combustion of the residual carbon in the fuel. The rate of burn and
combustible gas generation can be varied over a wide range determined by
the rate of admission of primary burn air to the gasifier. The ash formed
in this primary combustion zone drops through the grate to an easily
removable ash catcher.

The fuel rich gas from the gasifier and a secondary air jet are mixed in a
burn tube. The high velocity secondary jet assures turbulent mixing of
secondary air with the fuel gas from the gasifier to achieve complete
combustion in this tube. The secondary jet also maintains the primary
combustion zone at sub-atmospheric pressure, allowing fuel loading without
loss of combustion gases. The completely burned gas emerges from the
combustion tube at a high temperature, typically about 1300ºC, and at high
velocity.

Figure 2. Schematic of BiowattTM generator with pellet burner

The hot gas from the burn tube swirls around the heater head of the engine,
ensuring a uniform temperature distribution around the head. The gas exits
through axial fins on the heater head to a collection ring. From the
collection ring the exhaust gas enters the recuperator. The remaining
energy in the exhaust is partially recovered and used to heat the incoming
combustion air in this counter flow heat exchanger. The cooled exhaust gas
then goes to the exhaust gas jet ejector.

In the stack, a high-pressure jet of fresh air from the blower transfers
momentum to the exhaust gas in the exhaust jet ejector, driving the exhaust
out to the atmosphere and keeping the burner at sub-atmospheric pressure.
This arrangement prevents leakage of combustion gas to occupied spaces.

The above combination of burner elements assures complete combustion of a
variety of solid fuels, chiefly as a result of the highly turbulent mixing
of the fuel gas with the secondary air in the flame tube. This innovation
eliminates the burden of unburned gases so common in conventional wood
burners, caused by laminar flow burning and hence incomplete mixing of fuel
and air. The BiowattTM pellet burner is also capable of burning liquid or
gaseous fuels without modification, provided that these fluids are
introduced into the burn tube along with the secondary air.

With the use of this blower mixing technique, it is possible to use
appropriate sensors and computer-chip controlled airflows to achieve
essentially clean combustion under a wide range of conditions of firing
rate and type of fuel. The air blower power requirement is typically about
2% of system rated power. BiowattTM requires no grid connection, and the
system easily supports the blower from initial engine start-up until shut
down. Clean combustion reduces stack emissions, maximizes system
efficiency, and therefore minimizes fuel use. The same fuel can be used to
generate electricity and to provide for cooking, hot water, or space
heating, as required.

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From ericbj at club-internet.fr Fri Jul 13 17:56:51 2001
From: ericbj at club-internet.fr (Eric Bruce Johnston)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:30 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Coalgasification
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20010712153916.009c3790@wgs1.btl.net>
Message-ID: <3B4F7222.EE493FF6@club-internet.fr>

Peter Singfield a écrit:

> It goes much further to! They arrested and incarcerated a Chinese family
> here last week for eating cat meat!! All in the name of "for the public
> good".

Must be barbaric where you are! I suppose they even
ban the consumption of humans? What would my New
Guinea friends have to say!

Mind you, the hare was a sacred animal to the ancient
Britons. Which is why, during the insurrection of
60 A.D., Boadicea's warriors released hares in front
of the Roman legions, before that final, fateful battle.
They hoped in so doing the Roman legionaries would break
ranks and slaughter the hares for the pot, thereby
incurring the wrath of the gods. But unfortunately "the
deadly, drilled, docile, brutish masses of the Roman
soldiery plodding on like a swarm of crawling locusts"
(if one may paraphrase Churchill's words relative to a
more recent conflict) took no notice of the hares.
The day went against the Britons, and Boadicea and her
daughters took poison rather than fall into Roman hands.

Cows are sacred in India, horses in Britain.
No self-respecting Englishman will eat a horse (despite
the expression "hungry enough to eat a horse"), yet
across the Channel in France horse-butchers are everywhere.
As they say, one man's meat is another man's poison.

But now for the crux of the matter:
Was the cat cooked on a woodgas stove?
If not, what is it doing here?

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From graeme at powerlink.co.nz Sat Jul 14 04:33:26 2001
From: graeme at powerlink.co.nz (Graeme Williams)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:30 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Coal Gasification.
Message-ID: <000901c10c3f$4e5d60e0$0c9736d2@graeme>

The current interest in coal gasification highlights the fact that as a
combustion fuel it can be highly polluting. Given the most coal
gasification processes are updraught gasifiers by any other name the
emissions from burning the gas of these gasifiers will still need some clean
up before discharge into the atmosphere.

It might be of interest to learn that when Eco Puck in Canada did coal
trials for Manitoba Hydro in the Mega Class downdraught gasifier, the
combusted gas had no visible emissions, smoke or steam plumes. This was
significant in that Foster Engineering who witnessed these trials commented
on the fact that it was the cleanest gas from coal they had ever seen. It
would appear that downdraught gasification can produce a clean combustible
gas from coal that when combusted by conventional means produces excessive
flu stack emissions. This is the reason that Manitoba Hydro Selkirk power
station was closed down, and is currently being converted to natural gas.

At the request of Manitoba Hydro we have looked at increasing the size of
the Mega Class to three times its existing size for operation with coal.
This is essentially to set up a pilot project. The output of the gasifier
would increase from the current 5.2 MWT to 15.6 MWT on coal and could
provide a useful option where coal is the preferred choice of fuel.
Personally I don't like the thought of using coal, but at least if we must
use it then lets do it with minimal emissions and cleanup technologies.

Eco Puck have been offered 200 years supply of coal at $10 per tonne with
the gasifiers being located at the mine site. We haven't decided yet
whether to proceed with this but the energy situation as it is developing in
the U.S. Is powerful motivation to get these installations working. Eco Puck
now have their website in place but it is still under construction
www.ecopuck.com

Doug Williams
Fluidyne.

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From A.Weststeijn at epz.nl Sat Jul 14 12:18:06 2001
From: A.Weststeijn at epz.nl (Weststeijn A)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:30 2004
Subject: Coal Gasification.
Message-ID: <E1780666C205D211B6740008C728DBFE9F50D2@sp0016.epz.nl>

Graeme Williams wrote sat July 14, 2001

> The current interest in coal gasification highlights the fact that as a
> combustion fuel it can be highly polluting. Given the most coal
> gasification processes are updraught gasifiers by any other name the
> emissions from burning the gas of these gasifiers will still need some
> clean
> up before discharge into the atmosphere.
>
This is correct. The chemical elements in the coal (and there are lost of
them...) either are contained in the fly ash (especially the halogens), the
bottom ash, taken out on purpose (like sulfer, and mercury coming up), are
being converted and neutralized (like NOx) or emitted.
Independent really of the thermal conversion process (direct burning or
gasifying) or the end use of the product gas.
The difference is more in the moment it is done: before or after the
addition of combustion air.

The advantage of clean up of product gas over flue gas is in the volume! If
you clean up the cooled product gas rather than the hot flue gas, you get a
dual volume reduction bonus (translated in substantial reduction of plant
size):
1) by avoiding the thermal expansion of the flue gas (really matters a lot)
2) by not dragging the 80% nitrogen along originating from the combustion
air.

> It might be of interest to learn that when Eco Puck in Canada did coal
> trials for Manitoba Hydro in the Mega Class downdraught gasifier, the
> combusted gas had no visible emissions, smoke or steam plumes.
>
No optimal coal fired power block shows emissions. If it does "colored":
calibrate your carburator!!
If a white steam plume is shown: your stack temperature is low, which is
good for the thermal efficiency, but indicates a less efficient momentary
plume dispersion due to the lower exhaust speed at the tip, so higher local
emissions concentrations.

> This was
> significant in that Foster Engineering who witnessed these trials
> commented
> on the fact that it was the cleanest gas from coal they had ever seen. It
> would appear that downdraught gasification can produce a clean combustible
> gas from coal that when combusted by conventional means produces excessive
> flu stack emissions. This is the reason that Manitoba Hydro Selkirk power
> station was closed down, and is currently being converted to natural gas.
>
Or was there something wrong with the boiler design? Or too expensive to
run?

> At the request of Manitoba Hydro we have looked at increasing the size of
> the Mega Class to three times its existing size for operation with coal.
> This is essentially to set up a pilot project. The output of the gasifier
> would increase from the current 5.2 MWT to 15.6 MWT on coal and could
> provide a useful option where coal is the preferred choice of fuel.
> Personally I don't like the thought of using coal, but at least if we must
> use it then lets do it with minimal emissions and cleanup technologies.
>
For this thermal size bracket natural gas will no doubt be financially more
attractive as soon as the current prize peak is back to normal.
A coal plant of whatever size remains more costly to build, to operate and
to maintain.
On a utility level the investment is typically 40% higher and
maintenance...oh boy.
So the cheaper fuel (per MMBtu or GJ) has to make up for a lot.
But I can imagine, not everywhere there is a gas pipeline readily available,
and coal gas would find its niche.

Perhaps that is the reason the Swedish gentleman (who started this coal
gasification thread) is interested?

By the way, where I am at (Holland), there recently have been successful
tests carried out with cogasification of biomass in a large updraught
suspension type coal gasifier (Shell process). A CGCC plant in the 250 MWe
bracket.

> Eco Puck have been offered 200 years supply of coal at $10 per tonne with
> the gasifiers being located at the mine site. We haven't decided yet
> whether to proceed with this but the energy situation as it is developing
> in
> the U.S. Is powerful motivation to get these installations working. Eco
> Puck
> now have their website in place but it is still under construction
> www.ecopuck.com
>
Sounds like an excellent site regardless of the thermal process!
Wow, $10/ton! Is it reasonable coal quality?
How far is the nearest grid?
Isn't Foster Wheeler jumping on this big time?

best regards,
Andries Weststeijn

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From ericbj at club-internet.fr Sat Jul 14 13:27:54 2001
From: ericbj at club-internet.fr (Eric Bruce Johnston)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:30 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Coalgasification
In-Reply-To: <E1780666C205D211B6740008C728DBFE9F50C6@sp0016.epz.nl>
Message-ID: <3B508435.462358B3@club-internet.fr>

Weststeijn A a écrit:

While we are still on this subject ...
I am wholeheartedly in agreement in your approach,
if doubtless differing on some details.

It is perhaps worth adding that in traditional societies
that have survived for thousands of years, the individual
is hemmed-in by innumerable reciprocal obligations and taboos.
Such societies are very far from the untramelled free-for-all
that western predator capitalism has brought to the fore.
This is not a plea against capitalism - only against losing
all sense of equilibrium.
(To the Cathar church of the Languedoc, the nascent capitalism
of their times, XIIth to XIIIth centuries, was a liberation
from the constraints of feudalism; however the forces of
reaction proved dominant on that occasion).

It is as well to bear in mind that old Chinese proverb:
"All true development comes slowly."

Now to celebrate this 14th July, France's national day,
anniversary of the storming of the Bastille, I append the
following, although it will only be after reading thoroughly,
digesting and meditating that a connection with gasification
may be glimpsed (or not, as the case may be):-

____________________________________________________________

Unlawful debt or financial crime against human development.
____________________________________________________________

By Arnaud Zacharie

The politico-financial history of the last thirty years reveals a
worrying correlation between financial crime, indebtedness and
poverty. In the four corners of the world, various agents have put in
place a smoothly running system of decapitalisation resulting in State
bankruptcies and as a consequence the failure of all public policy
guaranteeing the wellbeing of their peoples. Faced with this scarcely
encouraging situation, the question remains to be answered. Will the
twenty-first century eventually see justice prevail over the
institutionalised accumulating of fraudulent profits ?

A text-book case: the Argentine

Argentina is known for being one of the IMF 's (International Monetary
Fund) favourite pupils. Since the '80s the country has rigorously
applied the Washington experts' letters of intention. The programmes'
objective is now well known; freeing the country from debt
and structurally adjusting it to the global market, in order to break
decisively with the "reactionary" policies of the past, responsible
for the debt crisis at the beginning of the '80s

Following neoliberal theory, state power has accordingly been diluted,
undertakings have been sold to foreign capital, economic frontiers
opened up to international capital and the multinationals. Today while
90% of the banks and 40% of industry are in the hands of international
capital, the country has been in serious recession since July 1988,
its external debt has increased from 43 to 133 billion dollars between
1983 and 2000, health and education are in tatters, the average salary
is worth half its 1974 value . The collapse is dramatic, both
economically and socially. The reason is clear, though seldom
mentioned; the IMF and successive Argentine governments have not
answered the real problems but, have , on the contrary , applied
measures exacerbating them.

Evidence now exists , resulting from a judicial enquiry over 18 years,
following a legal process initiated back in 1982 by a journalist,
Alejandro Olmos; the Argentine debt crisis has its origin in wastage
and fraudulent misuse of funds featuring the Argentine government, the
IMF, private banks in the North and the American Federal Reserve. That
is why the Argentine Federal Court has declared the debt contracted by
the Videla regime "unlawful", as being contrary to the legislation and
Constitution of the country. The court recommends Congress to employ
this judgment to negotiate the cancellation of this execrable debt.

A smoothly running decapitalisation mechanism

In 1976 Videla's military junta took power and set up a dictatorship
which lasted until 1983. During this period Argentine external debt was
multiplied by five (increasing from 8 to 43 billion dollars) while the
share of the GNP (gross national product) attributable to wages sank
from 43% to 22%. The dictatorship was to lead to the debt crisis and
the official entry of the IMF to take financial command of the
country, with the results that are well known.

The verdict of the Argentine Tribunal,195 pages long, traces the
history of this condition of indebtedness from its origins. Agents of
various types are featured; on the Argentine side, the principal roles
are occupied by President Videla, Martinez de la Hoz, the Minister of
the Economy sponsored by the Council of Business Heads, and Domingo
Cavallo, Director of the Central Bank.

Next comes the IMF which since 1976 has been granting extensive credit
to the Argentine, providing Western banks with a guarantee that the
country is in a favoured position for the recycling of their surplus
petrodollars. But the IMF's role does not stop there, because all
through the dictatorship, Dante Simone, an IMF staff member, is to be
found in the regime's service. The IMF excuse is that it had granted
leave to M. Simone and that it was he who put himself at the
disposal of the country's Central Bank (p.27 of the judgment).The Bank
was therfore paying the expert's board and lodging expenses. It
remains to be discovered who paid his salary and if his leave was paid
by the IMF.

However that may be, Dante Simone produced a written report addressed
to Domingo Cavallo of the Argentine Central Bank (a copy to the IMF
has been found) a report stating that as regards contracting further
debts there were wide margins before any major economic danger would
arise (p.31 of the judgment). M. Simone's role was clearly to seek
extensive but discrete external financing.

Such external funds were in any case hardly difficult to find, so
avid were the Western banks to tap into new markets, gorged as they
were with petrodollars impossible to invest following the crisis in
the rich countries of the North. The enquiry thus shows that the
Argentine Central Bank was able to make discretionary investments with
American banks, this without securing the agreement of the Minister of
the Economy, but relying on the generous help of the American Federal
Reserve!

The arrangement between these different lead players was such that the
bank loans granted to Argentina were never to come under that
country's control, but were to be directly diverted by the banks to
tax havens in the name of front-companies. So the debt did not
benefit the local people but rather the dictatorial regime and the
banks of the North which provided important technical financial
support for the passage.

The rest of the funds were squandered in lavish subsidies to large
groups of Minister Martinez de la Hoz's personal friends.

In spite of this court judgment, the legislative power is making no
move. It is continuing the country's liberalisation, pushed to
extremes, as this was, during the '90s ,by the successive governments
of Carlos Menem, who, along with four of his former ministers, is now
being held in custody, for international arms trafficking during the
first part of his mandate (between 1991 and 1995)!

Rather than employing the judgment to repudiate the unlawful debt
which is keeping his people and his economy in an unsustainable
position, President De la Rua has urgently recalled Domingo Cavallo to
the head of the Ministry of the Economy, the very man who was governor
of the Central Bank in the time of Videla and subsequently Carlos
Menem's "Super-Minister" of the Economy during the nineties before
getting himself swept away in the clean-up after the 1998 presidential
elections faced with De la Rua!

A well established culture

While a judgment like this has the capacity to show up the unlawful
character of the Argentinian debt, the fact that the enquiry lasted 18
years means that those responsible will remain immume, protected by
prescription covering the facts. The removal of prescription from
economic crimes is a major juridical objective of the new century. But
it is not the only one.

The mechanism brought to light in Argentina is unfortunately not an
exception. Mobutu in Zaire, Suharto in Indonesia, Houphouet-Boigny in
Ivory Coast, Moussa Traore in Mali, Marcos in the Philippines ,
Pinochet in Chile and others are well known examples of Chiefs of
State at the head of a financial empire constructed with the aid of
the banks by the twisted course of tax havens. All these countries are
burdened today by unsustainable debt and have been in the neoliberal
hands of the IMF for almost two decades. As for their peoples, most of
them have lost even the will to go on hoping, to such an extent has an
already well established culture been reinforced by the total opening
up of economic frontiers and the abolition of controls.

One of the most striking examples of this is Russia which inside a
decade has passed from the hope of democratic emancipation to
institutionalised plundering.

The facts underlying neoliberal Russia

When the Soviet Union finally collapsed, the local peoples entertained
an amazing hope of liberation and democratic freedom. Ten years later
they have passed cruelly from bureaucratic rationing to a dramatic
drop in their living standards. Once again a band of influential
agents have united to ceaselessly pillage a state in course of
disintegration.

The former Vice President of the World Bank, Joseph Stiglitz, ,
summarises this transition, as follows, concerning the reforms applied
in Russia:
"Following the fall of the Berlin Wall, two schools of thought
emerged concerning Russia's transition to a market economy. One of
them stressed the importance of institutional infrastructures in a
market economy and recommended a more gradual transition towards
market economy. The second school of thought was composed of
macro-economists whose faith in the market was absolute. These
economists had no knowledge of history or of the details of the
Russian economy nor did they believe that they needed any. The great
strength, and the ultimate weakness of the economic doctrines relied
on, lies in the fact that that they were - or were supposed to be -
universal. This universal truth is that shock therapy works for all
countries on their way to the market economy; the stronger the dose
(and the more painful the reaction), the more quickly the change is
effected. Such is their argument. Those who opposed this course were
not consulted for long. By December 1993 Russia had experienced 'too
many shocks and too little therapy'. And all these shocks had
completely failed to bring Russia to a genuine market economy. The
rapid privatisation imposed on Moscow by the IMF and the US Treasury
had allowed a small group of oligarchs to take control of the
country's assets. When the government began to run short of money for
paying pensions, the oligarchs diverted important national resources
to Swiss or Cypriot bank accounts. The United states were implicated
in these obnoxious transactions. In mid-1998 Larry Summers replaced
Robert Rubin in the post of US Finance Secretary. He appeared by the
side of Anatoly Chubais, the chief architect of the Russian
privatisations. In acting thus the United States appeared to be
allying themselves with the forces responsible for the impoverishment
of Russia. The US Treasury and the IMF continued to insist that the
problem did not result from too much therapy but from too few shocks.
But during the course of the '90s, the Russian economy continued to
collapse. Whereas only 2% of the population were living in poverty at
the end of the Soviet period, the 'reforms' saw the rate of poverty
climb as far as 50%, with more than half of Russian children living
beneath the poverty threshold. Today Russia is eaten away by enormous
inequalities and the majority of Russians have lost faith in the
market economy."

The fraudulent diversion of funds operated by the Russian oligarchs
since 1993 are estimated at some 130 billion dollars! Meanwhile the
country's external debt has risen from 60 to 155 billion dollars
between 1990 and 1999, whereas the country's GNP in 1999 is only 59%
of what it was in 1989. While the people have been plunged into dire
poverty, a handful of oligarchs have accumulated a fortune, entirely
tax free, with the complicity of the Yeltsin government, Russian and
Western banks and tax havens.

One of the most striking examples is that of Menatep, during the
Kremlin-gate scandal which erupted in August 1999. This Russian bank ,
now in liquidation, was, with the collaboration of the Bank of New
York, to have diverted to tax havens, some 10 billion dollars, partly
derived from IMF loans.

Late in 1997, Menatep opened an account with Cedel (now renamed
Clearstream), the international clearance room offering the facility
of opening unpublished accounts (read "Revelation", Denis Robert and
Ernest Black, 2000, Les Arenes). Alongside the Bank of New York are the
Vice President, in charge of relations with Russia, and her husband,
the former president of Menatep and representative of Russia on the
IMF between 1992 and 1995. The agents are in play, with the complicity
of the Yeltsin administration as back-up, so decapitalisation can be
put into operation.

On December 31, Boris Yeltsin resigned in favour of Vladimir Putin.
elected President three months later, after instigating an
investigation for abuse of power against Procurator Skuratov who was
holding an inquiry into the diversion of funds connected with the
Yeltsin clan.

Convergent diagnoses

The globalisation of liberalised financial markets and the
proliferation of tax havens have facilitated the means for
decapitalising States worldwide. Thousands of billions of dollars are
thus diverted and laundered with total impunity, all at the expense of
the men and women citizens of the world who have to suffer the
onslaughts of budgetary austerity. To counter such a state of affairs
is no easy matter and this for various reasons;

The complicity of the banks; - the diversion operations call for
complicated technical financial resources which only the banks
possess: front-companies, off-shore companies, changes of fiscal and
legal identity, diversification of investments in complex financial
products etc. Thus while corrupt elites build a fraudulent financial
empire, they can only do it thanks to the logistic support of banks
well remunerated for their services.

The speed of carrying out enquiries: - the period of sequestration
being public and limited to a few months, justice is constrained to
act with urgency which allows white collar criminals to respond when
they are sufficiently organised. This was especially so in the case of
Moussa Traore in Mali ,who at the beginning of the nineties was able
to alert an ambassador accomplice in Geneva who armed with a power of
attorney contacted the cantonal bank in Vaud.The latter was quick to
transfer the funds to other safe places (read "Africa: Cancel the Debt
to Liberate Development" edited by Arnaud Zacharie and Eric Toussaint,
2001,p.235)

The powerlessness of justice; - whereas only a few days are needed to
divert funds along the crooked route to the tax havens, it takes an
average of two and a half years for a judge to track down an
operation. In view of this disparity it seems difficult for justice to
respond effectively to this globalised mechanism for decapitalisation.

The virtual secrecy surrounding the information; - while it is easy
for a banker to discover who is the titular owner of an account and
with what front company or financial set-up etc., he is usually silent
when an enquiry is under way. The reason for this is simple. Diverting
funds is an extremely well remunerated operation for banks and very
real competition has developed. Moreover, a bank cooperating with
justice will see its fraudulent clients turning their backs on it to
the benefit of more "understanding" banks.

The complexity of the procedures; - the fact that a procedure is
traditionally long and complex (1st instance, 2nd instance, etc.)
often enables financial criminals to be protected by prescription
covering the facts

Roads to international financial justice ;

The establishment of international financial justice has become
essential for States to exist.This involves juridico-economic changes
at national and international levels. Some roads should be tried even
though, given the current political situation , they may seem
problematic.

The execrable and unlawful debt; it has been seen in the case of the
Argentine that national enquiries can be made to determine the
unlawfulness of a country's external debt. Under international law, a
debt is unlawful when it has been contracted by a non-democratic
regime, without benefit to the local population and with the
collaboration of the creditors. Although the impact of such enquiries
remains limited for the reasons explained above, they may well
increase citizen awareness thus motivating the legislative powers to
respond eventually.

The Convention of Rome (1998); when the Rome Convention has been
ratified by enough States the international penal court will have a
panel of judges (parquet) at its disposal and one State will be able
to bring a case against another. Since March 1991, ECOSOC (Economic
and Social Council) has considered the diversion of public assets to
be a violation of the Rights of Man. Also, it will be possible to
prosecute decapitalisation as an international crime, even if such
prosecutions can be brought only by States and give no right to civil
law damages (simply the criminal penalty)

Making clearance companies subject to international supervision; it
was seen in the Menatep case that the use of unpublished accounts
offered by an international clearance room such as Clearstream makes
any diversionary operations even more opaque. As was emphasised in 'The
Appeal for International Financial Justice' launched on 30 May 2001 by
ATTAC in Belgium :
"While the eruption of financial exchanges might lead one to believe
there was chaos among the financial floods, in reality no trace of the
circulation of capital sums, whether legal or not, has been allowed to
go astray. All the operations are registered on micro-fiches or optic
disks and kept in the heart of the clearance rooms and in the archives
of Swift. Thus the movements of funds from banking and tax havens can
easily be reconstituted, a fact which offers the necessary instruments
for the struggle against financial crime and the proliferation of tax
havens. On the other hand, left without any real control, or
controlled by the banks alone, these supranational bodies can become
purveyers of corruption, financial frauds and laundering. This is why
we are asking the national political institutions to put Swift,
Euroclear and Clearstream under the democratic control of a
supervisory organisation".

The taxation of international financial transactions; - the imposition
of a Tobin type tax, a recommendation common to numerous
organisations, has advantages seldom mentioned . Such a tax would in
fact entail the transparency and "traceability" of transactions thus
facilitating their control by public authorities and by justice.

Finally, taking a more global view, economic rights must be defended
in the same way as civil and political rights, especially through the
(1966) Pact relating to economic, social and cultural rights. This
requires firstly the adoption of a Protocol as requested in 1993 by
the Vienna Conference and then the ability to try economic crimes as
crimes against Humanity - by their nature not subject to prescription.

Arnaud Zacharie is a researcher at CADTM (Committee for the
Cancellation of Third World Debt)) cadtmcontact@skynet.be
Translation: Prudence Dwyer coorditrad@attac.org
More about Genoa: http://attac.org/genes2001

___________________________________________________________________

BOOK RECOMMENDATION!

REACHING FOR HEAVEN ON EARTH, by Robert H. Nelson
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0822630249/brainfood.a
See samples at
http://dieoff.com/page235.htm or http://dieoff.com/page235.pdf

Nelson's book is a fantastic accomplishment, and stands now
alongside Thurow's DANGEROUS CURRENTS as the best critique of
economics that I have ever read.

If you want to really understand why there is such a violent
reaction to the news that people are nothing but animals,
and there are limits to economic growth, read:
REACHING FOR HEAVEN ON EARTH, by Robert H. Nelson
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0822630249/brainfood.a

If you have ever wondered why liberalism can't plan...

If you have ever wondered about the cozy relationship between
government and big business...

If you have ever wondered why people are so committed to global
economic development...

If you have ever wondered what the American Progressive Period
was all about...

Read: REACHING FOR HEAVEN ON EARTH, by Robert H. Nelson
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0822630249/brainfood.a

Jay -- http://www.dieoff.org

__________________________________________________________

(cannot comment on the book myself : have it on order)

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From graeme at powerlink.co.nz Sat Jul 14 22:04:43 2001
From: graeme at powerlink.co.nz (Graeme Williams)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:30 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Re: Coal Gasification.
In-Reply-To: <E1780666C205D211B6740008C728DBFE9F50D2@sp0016.epz.nl>
Message-ID: <001101c10cd2$23318d40$339636d2@graeme>

Hello Andries,

In answer to your question of $10.00 per ton coal quality, I believe it is a
bituminous nut grade, the same as that used at the Selkirk Power Station. I
am told that it was closed because of the yellow choking smoke! Judging by
the yellow residue I saw on the top of the flue stack, one can conclude I
guess that 'a bit' of sulphur was pumped into the atmosphere.

Foster Wheeler can jump onto coal stations any time they want to, but not
with us. Possibly you confuse Foster Engineering with them, who only
specialise in rebuilding jet aero engines, and building gas turbine powered
generators. In fact they are considering setting up a new servicing
facility in Winnipeg for the Canadian airline industry and to build power
plants for ECOPUCK's US sludge projects.

In regards to the cost of coal gasification projects, it makes no difference
to us as the same gasifier handles biomass or coal or mixed and there
doesn't appear to be any special need regarding maintenance for coal.

The whole concept of the Mega Class design was to it's practicality as a
community power station, and we could put one or more in every industrial
area of the Netherlands and you would hardly know of their existence. They
also have heaps of waste heat for co-generation, which is far more practical
than a 250MWe stuck in one place. Even fuel deliveries a couple of times a
day wouldn't be noticed on the teaming roads of Europe, so small systems
which are leased and not purchased will knock holes in the usual
conventional economic arguments.

Anyway, a Mega Class gasifier will be firing up near you shortly in Germany
(for testing) followed by Canadian built machines early 2002 I hope!
Everyone involved in this project is flat out making it happen on a
shoestring budget and I will write about this in the Fluidyne German report
next week.

Kindest Regards
Doug Williams
FLUIDYNE GASIFICATION

> Sounds like an excellent site regardless of the thermal process!
> Wow, $10/ton! Is it reasonable coal quality?
> How far is the nearest grid?
> Isn't Foster Wheeler jumping on this big time?

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From LINVENT at aol.com Sun Jul 15 11:17:13 2001
From: LINVENT at aol.com (LINVENT@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:30 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Coalgasification
Message-ID: <cd.92d605b.28830d61@aol.com>

Dear Peter,
I fully agree with your comments about relying upon the government for
ongoing societal needs besides the basic ones which are defined in the
Constitution.
A very exemplary example of the group or culture in the US which adheres
to the ideals which you espouse are the Amish. Do you think they would care
about a petroleum shortage? An energy crisis? They raise the food for their
horses. They are one of the only ones which are exempt from paying social
security taxes (by special congressional exemption) as they take care of
their own, whether old or infirmed or not fully developed. They are also the
only sector of the ag industry which is growing in this country. All the
others are shrinking.
We in Agronics do a lot of business with them. They have no divorce, do
not write bad checks, do not have phones, rent cars if they want to travel
long distances, plow their fields with horses and if a neighbor's barn burns
down, the whole community gets together and builds them a new one.
They are interested in the gasification technology however. One family
came here from Kansas a couple of weeks ago and spent many hours watching the
gasifier and asking me lots of questions about it. They are very mechanically
inclined. Many of them build their own implements to what extent they have
them. If someone would like to have a photo of one of the finest farms in
Pennsylvania which is one of our clients, let me know and I will e-mail it to
you.
One thing you can say about the Amish as a group is that they are happy
and smiling.
When a group like this co-exists with the modern hustling society which
we have it shows how flexible our society is and how adaptable societies can
be in general.

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Gasification List Moderator:
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From snkm at btl.net Sun Jul 15 11:51:58 2001
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:30 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Coalgasification
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20010715094644.0099bd90@wgs1.btl.net>

Dear Tom;

I have exactly the same example here -- working with the Belizean Mennonite
colonies. What always surprises me is how happy the children always are.
Yet no TV, no radio -- not even any music! Never mind "hanging-out".

If I was not seeing it with my own eyes on a daily basis for the past 15
years I might -- like the rest of North America -- believe it impossible!

Though Belize is supposedly a 10% HIV infection rate (figures show 4% --
and many are not reported) -- you can be sure HIV is not a problem in these
Mennonite communities. And they do not have condom machines at every corner!

They also are not suffering from a wave of crack cocaine addiction among
the young as is the rest of this country! And the violent crime that
follows along with it.

But 3 Mennonites were shot -- two killed -- in a robbery when the truck
they were riding in was "attacked" -- they were far from their home selling
beans.

I guess for most people -- they have nothing to compare this present state
of mankind to -- that is no other life style except the modern mass media
one Big Brother feeds them through the Boob-tube continuously. So they
believe it is as good as it gets. What a shame.

This living here with a foot in two worlds -- so to speak -- has really
hardened my attitudes regarding just where modern life styles are leading
our human race to.

It gets pretty obvious -- when you see people just like yourself (of the
same racial background) -- doing real well -- and being totally self
sustaining -- in a manner that our modern societies abhor. That is with
minimum technology, no consumeristic driving forces, no deficit spending --
etc -- etc.

The strange part is Mayan villages exist across the border -- into the
Peten of Guatemala -- living more or less along these same life styles.
They are even more self sustaining than the Mennonites -- who do use
machinery and modern agricultural techniques. While the Mennonites here in
Belize are very interested in Gasification -- these Maya have no need for
any power plant at all. Yet they live in close knit societies to very old
age always in grace and comfort. Again -- traveling to these villages one
sees nothing but happy children.

Basically -- we gain an understanding regarding what "The Salt of this
Earth" means in reference to human styles of existence.

For all the rest of us -- outside these self sufficient colonies of man --
most try to fool themselves that everything is OK -- and will be getting
better and better with time as we solve all out social problems.

I am cursed with having to continuously observe the alternative life styles
-- where they have no problems (except those caused by the likes of us) and
need no solutions.

Our biggest problem appears to be we do not admit we have any problems.
That is -- we are doing the best possible considering the circumstances. An
ultimate "cop-out".

The only happy child in modern USA is one taking "Ritlin" medication
(anti-hyperactivity agent) starting from the age of four!!

We always must look to the children of a society to see how happy the
future of that society will be.

I guess in the US -- that would be how happy the pet cats all those
frustrated woman are keeping -- rather than keeping children.

Incredible -- you can raise about 5 children (at least!!) here on the
amount of meat protein just one American pet cat consumes.

Talk about a very mixed up society --- that thinks it is the right one --
the only way to fly.

Peter Singfield / Belize / Central America

At 11:14 AM 7/15/2001 EDT, you wrote:
>Dear Peter,
> I fully agree with your comments about relying upon the government for
>ongoing societal needs besides the basic ones which are defined in the
>Constitution.
> A very exemplary example of the group or culture in the US which adheres
>to the ideals which you espouse are the Amish. Do you think they would care
>about a petroleum shortage? An energy crisis? They raise the food for their
>horses. They are one of the only ones which are exempt from paying social
>security taxes (by special congressional exemption) as they take care of
>their own, whether old or infirmed or not fully developed. They are also the
>only sector of the ag industry which is growing in this country. All the
>others are shrinking.
> We in Agronics do a lot of business with them. They have no divorce, do
>not write bad checks, do not have phones, rent cars if they want to travel
>long distances, plow their fields with horses and if a neighbor's barn burns
>down, the whole community gets together and builds them a new one.
> They are interested in the gasification technology however. One family
>came here from Kansas a couple of weeks ago and spent many hours watching
the
>gasifier and asking me lots of questions about it. They are very
mechanically
>inclined. Many of them build their own implements to what extent they have
>them. If someone would like to have a photo of one of the finest farms in
>Pennsylvania which is one of our clients, let me know and I will e-mail it
to
>you.
> One thing you can say about the Amish as a group is that they are happy
>and smiling.
> When a group like this co-exists with the modern hustling society which
>we have it shows how flexible our society is and how adaptable societies can
>be in general.
>
>
>
>Sincerely,
>Leland T. Taylor
> President
> Thermogenics Inc.
>7100-2nd St. NW, Albuquerque, New Mexico 87107
>phone 505-761-1454 fax 505-761-1456
>Attached files are zipped and can be decompressed with <A
>HREF="http://www.aladdinsys.com/expander/">www.aladdinsys.com/expander/ </A>
>
>-
>Gasification List Archives:
>http://www.crest.org/discussion/gasification/current/
>
>Gasification List Moderator:
>Tom Reed, Biomass Energy Foundation, Reedtb2@cs.com
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>
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From graeme at powerlink.co.nz Mon Jul 16 01:48:43 2001
From: graeme at powerlink.co.nz (Graeme Williams)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:30 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Eco Puck Canada Briquetter
Message-ID: <002101c10dba$92705cc0$a59436d2@graeme>

Dear Colleagues

The briquetter acquired for their first technical trials in Canada, is one
of the original John Deere machines developed for stock food. Purchased for
C$1,000 another C$20,000 was spent to get it reconditioned and mounted ready
for work.

Output of the machine depends on fuel but 10-20T/hr is standard, although it
is believed to have greater capacity if you beef up the power inputs.
Whilst this machine has a 150H.P. Electric motor, this will be replaced with
a tractor, and driven mechanically, when the machine is transferred to
Northern Ireland.

Although this briquetter is little different in principle to other machines,
the exclusive technology developed by Eco Puck literally cooks the briquette
into a rock like structure, making it ideal for the down draught Mega Class
gasifier.

You can view the machine on the Fluidyne Archive.
http://www.fluidynenz.250x.com/

Eco Puck has now got its Web-site up and running although it is still under
construction. www.ecopuck.com

Doug Williams
Fluidyne Gasification.
http://www.fluidynenz.250x.com/ <---please note new address

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From snkm at btl.net Tue Jul 17 15:13:49 2001
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:30 2004
Subject: GAS-L: The ultimate small gasifier??
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20010717130815.00982100@wgs1.btl.net>

At 09:39 AM 7/17/2001 +0200, you wrote:
>Very interesting, I wonder what happened to it? Probably too expensive.
>George Tyler, South Africa

Hi George;

Sure looks "expensive". But ---

Direct competition to that tiny Ormat they use for small power plants in
oil pipe line stations -- and those are expensive -- probably many times as
much.

Nice technology there -- an efficient (for a change) Stirling motor design
with a linear alternator. Those linear alternators get 90% and better over
all efficiencies over an extremely broad power range. Also:

"The design life is greater than 40,000 hours, and to date over 2000 full
thermal start-stop cycles have been completed."

And they certainly have an incredible over-all efficiency using biomass for
such a small system:

"We anticipate that a commercial product will be able to achieve the
efficiencies and energy flows indicated in Figure 4. With an input of 5.6
kW fuel energy, the electrical output will be 1.1 kWe, with 3.8 kW heat at
75° C available for hot water and space heating. With these improved
efficiencies, consumption of pellets would be reduced to about 1.2 kg/hr of
pellets and about 1.4 kg/hr of wood depending upon wood quality and
moisture content. Nearly 20% of the fuel energy will be converted to
electricity."

Their "prototype" is getting:

"This generator consumes between 1.2 and 1.4 kg/hr of biomass, depending
upon the quality of the biomass, and produces over 1 kW of electric output
and 4 kW of heat."

If you look over that entire site you will see a projection where if they
could get a mass market -- allowing mass production (and still in
relatively small numbers):

"Particular attention has been made to reducing tight tolerances and
tolerance stack-ups. Independent manufacturing cost estimates are less than
$350/unit in quantities of 10,000’s/year."

Hey!!

Probably the problem is that this world economy -- directed exclusively by
an out of control consumerism -- is just not interested in investing in
power plants of just 1 kw -- no matter what the cost. 10 kw is the very
minimum!! And the grid guys will go to any lengths to stop that kind of
thing from happening.

But boy -- are those investors missing the chance of a life time!! As their
is a huge market for a device just like this at those prices in 3rd world!!

Also -- they mention an association with:

"These systems are being developed as part of a range of biomass-fired
electric generation products that will be marketed under the name
Biowatt™"

Ergo -- the name: "BiowattTM biomass pellet burners"

Probably another "PowerPlug" type deal -- good technology -- but can't make
it to market.

One day -- hopefully soon -- China (or India) will wake up to these style
innovations of small power production -- and mass produce units for world
market. Until then -- we can only sit back and observe and analyse what
could be done if Modern world had its head screwed on right.

I doubt these technologies will be "lost" -- they are just being worked on
in the wrong places at the wrong time. So will be stalled for a few more
years.

To bad Doug Williams and Fluidyne was not "driving" this introduction of
technology -- as by the sounds of his reports -- he would have 10,000 per
year being made last year and selling for $350 US per unit.

But this turn of the wheel -- everyone only wants huge to humongous grid
application power plants. That is where they plan to lose their shirts --
this turn of the wheel.

Why lose their shirts? Simple -- as long as coal is there for $10 per tonne
-- forget big biomass projects!!

But unlike coal -- biomass is everywhere -- and thus is much better suited
for small power plants around the globe. Ergo -- a real market instead of a
"dream" market.

Maybe Doug et. al. will figure this out one day -- and then we will not
have to wait for China to do it.

In the meantime -- lots of money left to be lost playing the grid supply
game (using biomass power "dreams") -- I guess.

Well, bottom line -- you always have to give the "suckers" what they want.

Sunpower demonstrates quite clearly the good alternative -- but the market
(suckers) are not lining up for any of it!

When the market collapses -- then maybe -- these style systems will come
into their own. Right now -- investment is counter productive to real needs
-- and will stay that way -- till the market place self destructs -- for
that same reason -- "ignorance" regarding what is "productive" rather than
a scam to make lots of money quickly.

People have totally put aside that notion:

From jerry5335 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 17 15:42:04 2001
From: jerry5335 at yahoo.com (jerry dycus)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:30 2004
Subject: GAS-L: The ultimate small gasifier??
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20010717130815.00982100@wgs1.btl.net>
Message-ID: <20010717193933.75343.qmail@web14004.mail.yahoo.com>

Hi Peter and All,
The stirling motor unit only cost $35,000 for
1kw, such a deal!!!
Where was that linear alt info? I couldn't find
it.
Thanks,
jerry dycus

--- Peter Singfield <snkm@btl.net> wrote:
> At 09:39 AM 7/17/2001 +0200, you wrote:
> >Very interesting, I wonder what happened to it?
> Probably too expensive.
> >George Tyler, South Africa
>
> Hi George;
>
> Sure looks "expensive". But ---
>
> Direct competition to that tiny Ormat they use for
> small power plants in
> oil pipe line stations -- and those are expensive --
> probably many times as
> much.
>
> Nice technology there -- an efficient (for a change)
> Stirling motor design
> with a linear alternator. Those linear alternators
> get 90% and better over
> all efficiencies over an extremely broad power
> range. Also:

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From A.Weststeijn at epz.nl Tue Jul 17 17:19:51 2001
From: A.Weststeijn at epz.nl (Weststeijn A)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:30 2004
Subject: Coal Gasification.
Message-ID: <E1780666C205D211B6740008C728DBFE9F50DF@sp0016.epz.nl>

Doug Williams wrote July 15th, 2001

Hello Doug,

> In answer to your question of $10.00 per ton coal quality, I believe it is
> a
> bituminous nut grade, the same as that used at the Selkirk Power Station.
> I am told that it was closed because of the yellow choking smoke! Judging
> by
> the yellow residue I saw on the top of the flue stack, one can conclude I
> guess that 'a bit' of sulphur was pumped into the atmosphere.
>
High sulphur content indeed would partly explain the price at the mine you
are at..
The name "coal" covers a widely varying range of substances!
(no wonder when it is made up from such widely varying biomass!)

So, what are you going to do about the sulfur emissions?
That sulphur does not disappear by itself, either combusted or gasified.

> Foster Wheeler can jump onto coal stations any time they want to, but not
> with us.
>
Allright, I was just joking.
What about the distance to the grid. That would be a factor for you too, but
perhaps the coal mine has a strong enough grid to start out with?.

> Possibly you confuse Foster Engineering with them, who only
> specialise in rebuilding jet aero engines, and building gas turbine
> powered
> generators. In fact they are considering setting up a new servicing
> facility in Winnipeg for the Canadian airline industry and to build power
> plants for ECOPUCK's US sludge projects.
>
No, I had the first Foster Wheeler in mind.
Next to coal boilers, also quite well known in the biomass-for-power field
for building nifty circulating fluidized bed boilers.

> In regards to the cost of coal gasification projects, it makes no
> difference
> to us as the same gasifier handles biomass or coal or mixed and there
> doesn't appear to be any special need regarding maintenance for coal.
>
Don't know exactly about your coal gasifying temperature conditions.
But I bet that you will notice that difference in maintenance.
I.e. feeding in the coal and sluicing out the ash.
Quite abrasive business that is.

> The whole concept of the Mega Class design was to it's practicality as a
> community power station, and we could put one or more in every industrial
> area of the Netherlands and you would hardly know of their existence.
>
Why not! Could be your next market, after the German plant has been started
up!
But plan it for biomass.
On coal, severe emission rules would apply, even for smaller units. You
would have to have a full fledged FGD unit of some sort, regardless of size.
In Germany as well, I bet. Especially when firing their lignite ....

> They
> also have heaps of waste heat for co-generation, which is far more
> practical
> than a 250MWe stuck in one place.
>
That's a very good point. And perhaps a very strong sales argument as well.
A larger unit will obviously not be worse in district heat delivery, but it
requires a larger infrastructure right from the start.
And a chemical, oil or paper plant or the like, ideal for waste heat
delivery indeed is not available everywhere
(in fact, it usually is not real waste heat but rather low
temperature&pressure steam, more valuable for heating than for additional
turbine expansion) .

> Even fuel deliveries a couple of times a
> day wouldn't be noticed on the teaming roads of Europe, so small systems
> which are leased and not purchased will knock holes in the usual
> conventional economic arguments.
>
On the first point I fully agree. A bigger plant does generate traffic and
attracts public attention.
(we have a gasifier operating off approx 25 trucks in a 12 hour day, with
road going through town).
About the "usual conventional economic arguments" I am less sure. What are
they?
Not the leasing per se. Several of our plants are on a cross-border
(foreign) lease. That works with large plants just as well and is not making
the difference between small and large.

> Anyway, a Mega Class gasifier will be firing up near you shortly in
> Germany
> (for testing) followed by Canadian built machines early 2002 I hope!
> Everyone involved in this project is flat out making it happen on a
> shoestring budget and I will write about this in the Fluidyne German
> report
> next week.
>
I really look forward to the report. Also to know how far away in Germany
that test location will be.

And I wish you the best of luck with the prep work for start-ups in both
Canada and in Germany!
Looks like you are gathering a wealth of experience!
And do a lot of "intercontinental information exchange" on the side. And not
just during conferences. Great.

best regards,
Andries Weststeijn.

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From snkm at btl.net Tue Jul 17 17:50:35 2001
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:30 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Reciprocating generators and how to get patent info
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20010717154407.009ae100@wgs1.btl.net>

At 12:39 PM 7/17/2001 -0700, you wrote:
> Hi Peter and All,
> The stirling motor unit only cost $35,000 for
>1kw, such a deal!!!
> Where was that linear alt info? I couldn't find
>it.
> Thanks,
> jerry dycus

$350.00 -- not $35,000!!

Regarding linear Generators:

http://www.sunpower.com/tech_papers/pub64/linmot.html

Start there --

If you really want to go into greater detail check out the US patent office
for these:

# PAT. NO. Title
1 6,199,381 DC centering of free piston machine
2 6,184,597 Linear motor and linear compressor
3 6,118,235 Circuits for controlling reciprocation amplitude of a linear
motor
4 5,996,345 Heat driven acoustic power source coupled to an electric
generator
5 5,901,556 High-efficiency heat-driven acoustic cooling engine with no
moving parts
6 5,893,275 Compact small volume liquid oxygen production system
7 5,850,111 Free piston variable-stroke linear-alternator generator
8 5,654,596 Linear electrodynamic machine and method of making and using
same
9 5,642,088 Magnet support sleeve for linear electromechanical transducer
10 5,637,935 Double-duct liquid metal magnetohydrodynamic engine
11 5,525,845 Fluid bearing with compliant linkage for centering
reciprocating bodies
12 5,496,153 Method and apparatus for measuring piston position in a free
piston compressor
13 5,473,205 Double-duct liquid metal magnetohydrodynamic engine
14 5,389,844 Linear electrodynamic machine
15 5,349,256 Linear transducer
16 5,342,176 Method and apparatus for measuring piston position in a free
piston compressor
17 5,315,190 Linear electrodynamic machine and method of using same
18 5,263,341 Compression-evaporation method using standing acoustic wave
19 5,174,130 Refrigeration system having standing wave compressor
20 5,038,061 Linear actuator/motor
21 4,924,123 Linear generator
22 4,827,163 Monocoil reciprocating permanent magnet electric machine with
self-centering force
23 4,697,113 Magnetically balanced and centered electromagnetic machine
and cryogenic refrigerator employing same
24 4,675,563 Reciprocating linear motor
25 4,602,174 Electromechanical transducer particularly suitable for a
linear alternator driven by a free-piston stirling engine

In the above list --

6,184,597 Linear motor and linear compressor

Is an excellent source for understanding the technology.

How do you get this?

OK -- am appending a "how-to" I just sent to another engineering friend of
mine. Try it and let me know if it worked for you.

Peter / Belize

***********appended************

At 09:04 PM 7/14/2001 -0400, you wrote:
>Peter
>
>A few days to a week ago you posted a message to me about how to
>work the patent system to get lots of information quick.
>
>I've misplaced it, can you resend it please.
>
>Thanks
>

OK:

You get to the search engine from:

http://www.uspto.gov/patft/index.html

Hit the Quick search button. Enter is your search requirements. If specific
-- like a pat number -- click "all years" in the bottom box. Anyway -- you
know how to run a search.

If you need more info:

http://www.uspto.gov/patft/help.htm

Clicking on a search result gets you back the "text" of the patent.

Now -- if you want more -- you have to go download a special program and
install it. Then you can down load the graphics -- which are basically a
very clear photostat quality of as many pages you want.

It does not like working with InetExplore -- I use it and it works well
with opera. Is supposed to work well with Netscape. It is a plug-in -- so
is invisible and just makes your browser able to see US patent files.

Read all about that at:

http://www.uspto.gov/patft/images.htm

There they suggest using this freeware plugin:

http://www.mieweb.com/alternatiff

"alternatiff" is an interesting pun on words by the way.

Anyhoot -- at that site you get the program and all kinds of information
and what to do with it.

Such as at:

http://www.mieweb.com/alternatiff/alternatiff.html

and

http://www.mieweb.com/alternatiff/faq.html

Basically a pretty painless process -- but not very good for IE browser.
(However -- it is working with my IE after some "patching")

There you go -- let me know how you make out.

I do not suppose patent lawyers looking for work will be happy that I have
supplied this info?

Peter

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From jerry5335 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 17 22:31:14 2001
From: jerry5335 at yahoo.com (jerry dycus)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:30 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Reciprocating generators and how to get patent info
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20010717154407.009ae100@wgs1.btl.net>
Message-ID: <20010718022850.45281.qmail@web14007.mail.yahoo.com>

Hi Peter and All,
--- Peter Singfield <snkm@btl.net> wrote:
> At 12:39 PM 7/17/2001 -0700, you wrote:
> > Hi Peter and All,
> > The stirling motor unit only cost $35,000 for
> >1kw, such a deal!!!
> > Where was that linear alt info? I couldn't
> find
> >it.
> > Thanks,
> > jerry dycus
>
> $350.00 -- not $35,000!!
Hi Peter and All,
I checked back to the site and under 1kw for
non-comercial sale the price is $35,000.
Thanks for the linear alt info.
jerry dycus

>
> Regarding linear Generators:
>
>
http://www.sunpower.com/tech_papers/pub64/linmot.html
>

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From thomas at biopilze.de Wed Jul 18 00:34:43 2001
From: thomas at biopilze.de (Thomas Ziegler)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:30 2004
Subject: GAS-L: sterling from sunpower.com...
In-Reply-To: <20010718022850.45281.qmail@web14007.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3B55112F.7763BD9F@biopilze.de>

to peter, jerry and the list:

ive slept one night over it...

still cannot understand whats going on:
as fas as i knew: phillips, eindhoven, the netherlands held quite a lot
of patents on the stirling, (-got an intensive manual on it..) later was
sold and heard in madras, india it was planned to product small
stirlings... meanwhile have seen several enterprises over here just
announcing and propagating than... nothing again...

now again such as the us say: "snake-oil-sellers" trying to sell
well-known tech for "quite a bit" a 35.000 $ but no folks, only for
institutions... all us-government-funded??? inbelieveable...!!!

lets put together:
sterling working gas: helium, recuperation cu-wool, rather maintainance
free or much BETTER: keep it simple, ok maybe less efficient but rough
but repairable from virtually everyone..., first gasification then
burning any fuel...

can anyone enlighten us whats going on there???

arent out there more wise men and women putting some money together in
more sensefull projects than say giga-chip-production that run out of
size next year already -all its products nothing worth than scarp?? ts
ts ts

ok i really have NO money but would like to buy an affordable small
sterling size say 1 kw el...

>>...$350.00 -- not $35,000!!...
> ...non-comercial sale the price is $35,000...
--
der kleine deutsche oeko-pilz-anbauer \
the small german organic mushroomer http://www.biopilze.de/wir.htm
le petit eco - champignoneur allemand /

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From ZBihari at ormat.com Wed Jul 18 01:58:19 2001
From: ZBihari at ormat.com (Zoli Bihari)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:30 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Sterling engines
Message-ID: <727CFCBBE1C3D41181FC005004201AA07FAD02@www.ormat.com>

Hi to Thomas and all the list members,

There is a lot of research and effort involved in transforming the
simplicity of the Sterling engines in to an industrial product.
It somehow reminds me the Vankel engine story.

By the way, Sunpower are not the only one dealing with the combination of
gasifier - Sterling engine.
CPC also develops (maybe under the same project umbrella of DOE) a battery
charger based on Sterling Technology Company's engine.
If I remember correctly, the Danish Royal Navy even built a submarine (I'm
not sure about the class of it) based on Sterling engine at the beginning of
the 90's.

Zoli Bihari
R&D - Ormat Ltd. - Israel
Tel: 972 (8) 9433894
Fax: 972(8)9439901
E-mail: zbihari@ormat.com
zolib@coolingzone.com

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From kenboak at stirlingservice.freeserve.co.uk Wed Jul 18 05:23:40 2001
From: kenboak at stirlingservice.freeserve.co.uk (Ken Boak)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:30 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Sunpower Stirling with gasifier
Message-ID: <20010718092040.27618.qmail@fsmail.net>

Gas listers,

The Sunpower linear Stirling engine is a highly evolved variant on the
engine first proposed by Robert Stirling in 1816.

William Beale of Sunpower has been working on this type of machine since the
early 1960s and is, by default the "World Expert".

The linear engine uses a "free piston" not connected to the traditional
conrod and crank. Instead it is fitted with rare earth magnets and all power
is extracted electrically from stator coils. Conversely by applying ac to
the coils, the piston will oscillate SHM and start the engine running.

The other moving part is the displacer. Like the free piston it is suspended
on a spring steel diaphragm which allows it to oscillate at a very carefully
controlled resonant frequency, AND at a defined phase difference to the
power piston.

The engine is reduced to two resonant systems, the displacer being driven by
sinusoidal changes in internal pressure. There is a lot of applied maths in
designing one of these systems, its not just mechanical engineering but
thermodynamics combined in a fairly exotix mix. (Hence the $35k price tag
for the research prototype)

There is however very little in these engines and as such could be made for
as the price of a Brigs and Stratton or Honda - provided that someone has
the will to do it. (This has hardly happened since 1937 when Philips took up
Stirling engine research).

The gasifier is just a bolt on solution to the existing Sunpower 1kW free
piston engine. It could just as well be powered from propane, methane or any
other combustible fuel. With a solar dish, and the engine at the focal
point - this would run on sunshine.

If you want more general back ground information on Stirling Engine follow
this link

www.geocities.com/kenboak/index.html

If William Beale issues a manufacturing licence to a volume producer, then
the price of this unit will tumble by a factor of 20. If the Chinese get
hold of it it will be a factor of 50.

regards,

Ken Boak

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From snkm at btl.net Wed Jul 18 09:11:10 2001
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:30 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Costs of 1 kwh Sunpower design
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20010718065852.009aaec0@wgs1.btl.net>

Jerry and Thomas;

The $35,000 price tag is if you want one now -- as a research tool in a
university -- etc.

The $350 per unit price is based on a minimum production price of 10,000
units.

I read all this:

As everyone likes to talk -- but no one wants to invest ---

I already lectured this list on the economic realities of mass production.

Granted -- you can't mass produce (or at least as easily set up that
factory) multi megawatt class gasifier power plants.

But you can with this style "micro" design.

The problem is "modern" do not invest in products going to help village
economies -- even though they probably would be making a lot more profit.

Why -- because large Gasification power plants face stiff competition -- as
in selling to grid at the same price or cheaper than coal plants.

Global village power plants of 1 kw do not have that competition.

For sure -- at less than $1000 for a 1 kwh unit as demonstrated -- one sees
a market for millions of units.

It is ignorance as much as greed that is killing this project.

One simply can't deprogram moderns -- no matter how enlightened they think
they are -- they are running the same program. They can only think "big".

So Sunpower say:

Invest in a "factory" to produce 10,000 units (probably per year) and we
can produce this design for $350 per unit.

Meanwhile -- if you want one of our hand made prototype units -- the price
is $35,000. That $35,000 unit is also a technology transfer mechanism!
Meaning China could end up with one -- and start spitting them out by the
10,000 unit lots -- probably for less than 1/2 that $350 -- profit included!!

Yet Jerry and Thomas -- their programs running deep in the back ground --
can see only $35,000 prototypes and consider the company "greedy".

Peter Singfield - Belize

At 07:28 PM 7/17/2001 -0700, jerry dycus wrote:
> Hi Peter and All,
>--- Peter Singfield <snkm@btl.net> wrote:
>> At 12:39 PM 7/17/2001 -0700, you wrote:
>> > Hi Peter and All,
>> > The stirling motor unit only cost $35,000 for
>> >1kw, such a deal!!!
>> > Where was that linear alt info? I couldn't
>> find
>> >it.
>> > Thanks,
>> > jerry dycus
>>
>> $350.00 -- not $35,000!!
> Hi Peter and All,
> I checked back to the site and under 1kw for
>non-comercial sale the price is $35,000.
> Thanks for the linear alt info.
> jerry dycus
>
>>
>> Regarding linear Generators:
>>
>>
>http://www.sunpower.com/tech_papers/pub64/linmot.html
>>
>
>
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From kchishol at fox.nstn.ca Wed Jul 18 09:58:06 2001
From: kchishol at fox.nstn.ca (Kevin Chisholm)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:30 2004
Subject: GAS-L: sterling from sunpower.com...
In-Reply-To: <3B55112F.7763BD9F@biopilze.de>
Message-ID: <NEBBLHHHOLFOEGCILKHEIEKGCOAA.kchishol@fox.nstn.ca>

Dear Tom

I think whats happening is as follows:

They made an engine/generator system, and then did an Application Study.
Their cost for the first system was, of course, very high. (The $35,000)
They would go to the trouble of making another for Institutions and
Researchers, for $35,000, but they are probably not at all interested in
producing "onesies and twosies". They state that with a volume of about
10,000 units, they can get their costs down to about $350. This does indeed
seem to make sense, in that the unit looks to be technically comparable to a
hermetically sealed domestic refrigeration compressor, which sells for the
same range.

I don't think they are in production yet with a "commercial unit".... they
seem to offer only the "non-commercial unit" at this time. I(n fairness to
them, they clearly state that the unit is "non-commercial" and are presently
not at all suggesting that the present unit is economically justifiable at
present prices.

Kindest regards,

Kevin Chisholm

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Thomas Ziegler [mailto:thomas@biopilze.de]
> Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2001 1:32 AM
> To: jerry dycus; Peter Singfield
> Cc: gasification@crest.org
> Subject: GAS-L: sterling from sunpower.com...
>
>
> to peter, jerry and the list:
>
> ive slept one night over it...
>
> still cannot understand whats going on:
> as fas as i knew: phillips, eindhoven, the netherlands held quite a lot
> of patents on the stirling, (-got an intensive manual on it..) later was
> sold and heard in madras, india it was planned to product small
> stirlings... meanwhile have seen several enterprises over here just
> announcing and propagating than... nothing again...
>
> now again such as the us say: "snake-oil-sellers" trying to sell
> well-known tech for "quite a bit" a 35.000 $ but no folks, only for
> institutions... all us-government-funded??? inbelieveable...!!!
>
> lets put together:
> sterling working gas: helium, recuperation cu-wool, rather maintainance
> free or much BETTER: keep it simple, ok maybe less efficient but rough
> but repairable from virtually everyone..., first gasification then
> burning any fuel...
>
> can anyone enlighten us whats going on there???
>
> arent out there more wise men and women putting some money together in
> more sensefull projects than say giga-chip-production that run out of
> size next year already -all its products nothing worth than scarp?? ts
> ts ts
>
> ok i really have NO money but would like to buy an affordable small
> sterling size say 1 kw el...
>
> >>...$350.00 -- not $35,000!!...
> > ...non-comercial sale the price is $35,000...
> --
> der kleine deutsche oeko-pilz-anbauer \
> the small german organic mushroomer http://www.biopilze.de/wir.htm
> le petit eco - champignoneur allemand /
>
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>
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>
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>
>
>
>

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From kenboak at stirlingservice.freeserve.co.uk Wed Jul 18 10:15:12 2001
From: kenboak at stirlingservice.freeserve.co.uk (Ken Boak)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:30 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Sunpower Engine
Message-ID: <20010718141256.7990.qmail@fsmail.net>

Beale and his collegues in Athens, OH, find themselves in the same boat as any other company developing new equipment.

The first prototypes have to bear the full cost of development, and it is not until volume production starts when the device is made available at a sensible price.

Whispertech in Christchurh New Zealand are now (hand) building 4 of their 1kWe WhisperGen Stirling gensets per week. (Website at www.victronenergie.com )

They are selling these for $11,000 each to the owners of luxury yachts - a market which will support that price. Dr. Don Clucas has spent the last 10 years of his post-doctorate career, developing the Whispergen and getting it into some sort of small scale production.

Beale has probably spent $3.5 million on developing his 1kWe prototype (for example - how much does Ford spend developing a new model??? so that you can buy it for $25k)

Let's not get hung up on the price, I don't care a hoot, if he'd said 100k or even 350k, it is an irrelevance. The main thing is that he has done it and now he is looking for backers.

With backers, investment and early sales to specialist markets, the cost will fall.

regards

Ken Boak

Stirling Development Engineer

Personal Website at:

http://www.geocities.com/kenboak/index.html

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From kenboak at stirlingservice.freeserve.co.uk Wed Jul 18 10:21:30 2001
From: kenboak at stirlingservice.freeserve.co.uk (Ken Boak)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:30 2004
Subject: GAS-L: WhisperGen Article
Message-ID: <20010718141916.8370.qmail@fsmail.net>

Gas Listers

If you go to

www.victronenergie.com

you will find a 103 page pdf article "Electricity on Board" explaining how the WhisperGen Stirling gen-set offers a neat solution to providing power on board a yacht.

Some of this is very relevant to off grid power applications - well worth a read.

With Striling technoplogy - there is no need to cool or scrub the wood gas, and so efficiency is maintained at a higher percentage level.

Remember -- a Stirling is not a fussy eater - unlike some IC engines ;-)

Ken Boak

Stirling Development Engineer

Personal Website at:

http://www.geocities.com/kenboak/index.html

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From snkm at btl.net Wed Jul 18 10:59:05 2001
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:30 2004
Subject: GAS-L: WhisperGen Article
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20010718085235.0097cdc0@wgs1.btl.net>

Ken;

In normal Sterling applications the fuel to electrical power efficiency is
terrible!

The Sterling design is a thermodynamic "topper" -- it can only extract
energy from the highest heat available --

Could a stirling produce power from a 300F waste heat source -- as can the
Ormat??

You would have a very great over-all efficiency -- however -- if you put an
Ormat device at the exhaust port of the Sterling.

I checked out WisperTec a while back -- efficiencies are very low!

Sunpower gets around this by using the waste heat to preheat combustion air
-- or so they claim.

20% over all efficiencies from a 1 kw biomass fueled plant is incredible.

What are the over all efficiencies of that Yacht unit?? What is the exact
fuel(s) they recommend?

The vibrating linear alternator system also is responsible for enhancing
sterling efficiencies.

But then -- it would also enhance a butane vapor cycle "piston" design. In
fact -- if they decided to retrofit such to their exhaust flow --- probably
good for 30% over all -- if not more.

Peter / Belize

At 03:19 PM 7/18/2001 +0100, you wrote:
>Gas Listers
>
>If you go to
>
>www.victronenergie.com
>
>you will find a 103 page pdf article "Electricity on Board" explaining
how the WhisperGen Stirling gen-set offers a neat solution to providing
power on board a yacht.
>
>Some of this is very relevant to off grid power applications - well worth
a read.
>
>With Striling technoplogy - there is no need to cool or scrub the wood
gas, and so efficiency is maintained at a higher percentage level.
>
>Remember -- a Stirling is not a fussy eater - unlike some IC engines ;-)
>
>
>
>Ken Boak
>
>Stirling Development Engineer
>
>Personal Website at:
>
>http://www.geocities.com/kenboak/index.html
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________________________________
>FSmail - Get your free web-based email from Freeserve: www.fsmail.net
>
>
>
>
>
>-
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>
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>www.webpan.com/BEF
>
>Sponsor the Gasification List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html
>-
>Other Gasification Events and Information:
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>http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
>
>

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From kenboak at stirlingservice.freeserve.co.uk Wed Jul 18 11:52:11 2001
From: kenboak at stirlingservice.freeserve.co.uk (Ken Boak)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:30 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Stirling applications in CHP
Message-ID: <20010718154910.18317.qmail@fsmail.net>

Listers,

to address some of Peter's points:

1. The Stirling makes sense in any application where the heat can be used for domestic heating, drying sails etc.
Modern vessels need a permanent supply of power for all the latest navigation and safety equipment - not to mention the fridge for the Champagne.

The WhisperGen may only be 16% to 20% efficient, but this is a damm sight better than running a 200hp marine diesel and putting out to sea every couple of days, just to recharge a few 100Ah of marine batteries. The Victron Energie article expalins the economics of onboard Stirling generation.

The "exact" fuel they use is marine diesel - what else are you likely to have on a luxury yacht with diesel main engines? (Possibly propane for cooking)

The Whispergen will run on diesel, propane and natural gas.

It could, however, be fitted to a small gasifier just like the Sunpower unit, and then you can burn whatever you fancy.

At the end of the day a Stirling power plant is just a building block and in MHO there is little to choose from between the Sunpower and the WhisperGen units. (But you currently get 3 WG units for the price of 1 Sunpower ;-)

Ken Boak

Stirling Development Engineer

Personal Website at:

http://www.geocities.com/kenboak/index.html

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From jsmeenk at iastate.edu Wed Jul 18 12:59:46 2001
From: jsmeenk at iastate.edu (Jerod Smeenk)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:30 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Tar sampling
Message-ID: <5.0.1.4.2.20010718114549.00a01be0@jsmeenk.mail.iastate.edu>

The Center for Sustainable Environmental Technologies at Iowa State
University operates a 5 ton/day atmospheric pressure, bubbling fluid bed
gasifier to test various fuels, operating conditions, gas clean-up
equipment, etc. The system has been instrumented to quantify particulate,
tar, and moisture content of the producer gas.

The isokinetic sampling system utilizes a heated particulate filter to
remove and quantify particulate prior to condensation of the tars. We have
operated the particulate filter at 400-425 C to prevent condensation of
tars in the filter. However, we have experienced some difficulties (air
leaks due to seal failures) with the filter and housing at these
temperatures. Similar sampling systems described in the literature suggest
filter temperatures from 150-450 C. We are uncertain about the lowest
acceptable filter temperature.

What is the lowest acceptable temperature at which the filter may be
operated? At what temperature do "heavy" tars begin to condense in the
filter and become significant? Any suggestions/insights would be appreciated.

Jerod

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jerod Smeenk Phone: (515) 294-6402
Iowa State University Fax: (515) 294-3261
1043 Black Engineering E-mail: jsmeenk@iastate.edu
Ames, IA 50011

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From kenboak at stirlingservice.freeserve.co.uk Wed Jul 18 15:48:19 2001
From: kenboak at stirlingservice.freeserve.co.uk (Ken Boak)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:30 2004
Subject: GAS-L: WhisperGen Article
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20010718085235.0097cdc0@wgs1.btl.net>
Message-ID: <009801c10fc2$74076bc0$91c5883e@boakk>

Peter and Listers,

One thought occurs to me:

There cannot be many 1kWe generating sets using IC engine technology which
exceed an overall fuel to electricy efficiency of 20%. Nor many which will
run on such a wide range of different fuel stuffs.

For example, a 3hp Briggs and Stratton bolted to a small gasifier is going
to be very inefficient, and the waste heat is going to prove difficult to
extract. It would need water cooling for a start, and a heat exchanger on
the exhaust - not a good overall solution. The noise is going to prove
unbearable too.

So perhaps its best not to trash the small Stirling at such an early stage,
especially before its had to prove its worth in niche applications, where IC
engine solutions are just non-starters.

regards,

Ken Boak

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From snkm at btl.net Wed Jul 18 18:19:55 2001
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:30 2004
Subject: GAS-L: WhisperGen with uniflow waste heat recovery
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20010718161435.008ea570@wgs1.btl.net>

Ken -- they would be lucky to get 15% -- however -- the boat shop in Belize
city has in some new Honda diesel gensets (single cylinder) -- state of the
art. Around $2500 US (here) and put out 3.2 kwh -- and certainly higher
than 25% efficiencies. Also -- very smooth and quite. They come in their
own porty rack -- easy to handle just two men. Air cooled -- all aluminum.
Modern power regulation. By guess -- after looking at one -- say a foot
print of 24 in by 30 in -- maybe 16 in high.

So -- that is the competition -- until the fuel cells get operational.

When I get a chance -- I write a blurb regarding binary cycle systems --
that get such high over all efficiencies in those huge power plants -- that
presently being gas turbines then steam turbine power plants using the gas
turbine exhaust heat.

But instead -- for the "topper" -- a stirling with linear generator -- but
on the other end -- a uniflow butane cycle -- using exhaust heat from the
sterling "topper" -- over all efficiencies will definitely be over 35%.

But now -- if I use a steam, linear, uniflow for the topping end -- and
then a butane vapor uniflow for the low end -- I'll still get that or
better --

Can a sterling ever be build cheaper than a uniflow?? After all -- no
boiler needed for the sterling -- and only a heat exchanger (as we
presently see being blown to the sky in the Sunpower example) to boil the
butane.

Just adding one heat exchanger -- one resonating "linear" uniflow -- keep
the same condenser -- 35% plus!

You would no longer need the return spring damper then ---

********************************************
* Heat exchanger ***********************
* * **
********************** **
** ** **
*************** ************** ***************** **
* Sterling **** Generator **** Uniflow *********** (Feed pump)
* **** **** ***********
*************** ************** ***************** **
** ** **
** ** **
********* ************* **
* heat * * Condenser ****
* * * ****
********* *************

[Linear -- binary cycle -- micro power plant]

All on the same shaft! No crankshaft -- no need for lubrication.

Just harmonize the resonance ---

Peter / Belize

At 08:47 PM 7/18/2001 +0100, you wrote:
>Peter and Listers,
>
>One thought occurs to me:
>
>There cannot be many 1kWe generating sets using IC engine technology which
>exceed an overall fuel to electricy efficiency of 20%. Nor many which will
>run on such a wide range of different fuel stuffs.
>
>For example, a 3hp Briggs and Stratton bolted to a small gasifier is going
>to be very inefficient, and the waste heat is going to prove difficult to
>extract. It would need water cooling for a start, and a heat exchanger on
>the exhaust - not a good overall solution. The noise is going to prove
>unbearable too.
>
>So perhaps its best not to trash the small Stirling at such an early stage,
>especially before its had to prove its worth in niche applications, where IC
>engine solutions are just non-starters.
>
>
>
>regards,
>
>
>
>Ken Boak
>
>

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From lennart.mukka at lkab.com Wed Jul 18 23:06:34 2001
From: lennart.mukka at lkab.com (Lennart Mukka)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:30 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Coalgasification
Message-ID: <OF4446AC26.68DC4CF7-ON41256A8D.00745C8B@lkab.kiruna.se>

Hi listmembers
Thanks for your answeres..............there came some useful and most of
them not for me anyway. But interesting, from which I am going to use the
information for the further planning of a coal gasification plant if its
economical and by the way the gas will be used in a process where it wont
hurt the enviroment more than than oil.
Interesting discussions since last days from other side of views, but I
dont have time or language to discuss it.

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From graeme at powerlink.co.nz Wed Jul 18 23:42:42 2001
From: graeme at powerlink.co.nz (Graeme Williams)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:31 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Coal Gasification and the ultimate gasifier
Message-ID: <001201c11004$79b1e5e0$4b9436d2@graeme>

Dear Gasification Colleagues
I must be getting cranky these days for the current subject "Coal
Gasification" to annoy me, but if you check the 15 or so postings on this,
only 3 actually refer to the subject in question. In fact the Gasification
Archive is almost useless to bona fide researchers.

At least four of my colleagues who work in both biomass and coal
gasification projects have made the comment that this forum has lost its
usefulness, to either refer to, or relate to their project experiences.

I too am interested in Chinese cooking (even cats) politics, wine, book
referrals, even ancient British history, at least the monolithic stones and
rings of those times. It doesn't however belong in Gasification Archives!

As for the search for the ultimate gasifier, try building one of those I
posted the design for last month. If a rural metal worker cannot make one
out of scrap oil drums for US$100, use 1.2-1.4kg/kWe, get 71% efficiency
from the gasifier and 23% to electricity after the engine, then I'll give
you the US$100 back. Economics and efficiencies is in the know how and the
know why of applying certain principles in the countries of use, not mass
production in China and selling imported gasifiers to rural populations.

So far only one gasifier is being built in a rural workshop in Bolivia, who
else is building? Where are all the questions, or don't those with the need
look to this forum any more?

If you don't know what to write about, tell us which consultant was helpful
or a dead head, who within the bureaucracy helps or hinders so can put names
to those faceless identities.

Behind the scenes, people like Jane Turnbull work tirelessly for rural
communities and Val Tiangco of the Californian Energy Commission who is
trying to implement projects qualifying for incentive payments on new
renewable energy, or Cordiner Peacock whose gasifier project works so well
its boring! These are the people and issues I'm interested to hear from and
I'd wish more of our lurker" members can be encouraged to contribute once
again.

Best Regards but terse
Doug Williams
Fluidyne Gasification.

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From Carl.Carley at eml.ericsson.se Thu Jul 19 03:49:00 2001
From: Carl.Carley at eml.ericsson.se (Carl Carley (EML))
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:31 2004
Subject: GAS-L: WhisperGen Article
Message-ID: <BBB80FB03D54D51192DA0002A56B0248057247@eukbant103.uk.eu.ericsson.se>

more detail info here
http://www.victronenergie.com/Products/whispergen/whispergen.htm

carl

-----Original Message-----
From: Ken Boak [mailto:kenboak@stirlingservice.freeserve.co.uk]
Sent: 18 July 2001 20:47
To: Peter Singfield; gasification@crest.org
Subject: Re: GAS-L: WhisperGen Article

Peter and Listers,

One thought occurs to me:

So perhaps its best not to trash the small Stirling at such an early stage,
especially before its had to prove its worth in niche applications, where IC
engine solutions are just non-starters.

regards,

Ken Boak

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From claush at et.dtu.dk Thu Jul 19 05:26:29 2001
From: claush at et.dtu.dk (Claus Hindsgaul)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:31 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Tar sampling
In-Reply-To: <5.0.1.4.2.20010718114549.00a01be0@jsmeenk.mail.iastate.edu>
Message-ID: <200107191131616.SM00788@there>

onsdag den 18. juli 2001 18:57 skrev Jerod Smeenk:
> What is the lowest acceptable temperature at which the filter may be
> operated? At what temperature do "heavy" tars begin to condense in the
> filter and become significant? Any suggestions/insights would be
> appreciated.

It depends on the actual tar and your own definition of tar. If you look
further into it, the difference between heavy tars and submicron particles
can become blurred. Under certain hot conditions, the heavy tar molecules
grow larger and - at some point, you begin to define them as soot particles
(this is the short story).

It should be possible to use commercially available quartz wool filters (see
e.g. the dust-sampling standard VDI 2066) at the temperatures of your gas.
But you may choose to limit the temperature anyway, since tars tend to
polymerize, if the temperatures are to high. Some amounts of tar *will* end
up in the filter, so you may want to extract the quartz wool filter with
some solvent (e.g. acetone, dichloromethane), and add the mass of the
extracted material to your tar measurements.

A lot of tar sampling methods exist serving different purposes such as
ease and simplicity - or precision and validity when comparing different
plants.

You may find valuable information in the descriptions of an european effort
to produce a unified tar-sampling protocol. See the "results"-tab at
www.tarweb.net

Sincerely,
Claus Hindsgaul

--
Research Assistant Claus Hindsgaul
Danish Technical University (DTU), Dept. of Mechanical Engineering.
Phone: (+45) 4525 4174, Fax: (+45) 4593 5761, http://www.et.dtu.dk/Halmfortet
claush@mek.dtu.dk

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From CAVM at aol.com Thu Jul 19 07:03:55 2001
From: CAVM at aol.com (CAVM@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:31 2004
Subject: GAS-L: WhisperGen Article
Message-ID: <85.d43e7a0.288817ff@aol.com>

I missed the part where the cost was listed. What is the cost installed on a
site, in USD?

Cornelius A. Van Milligen

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From hatharasinghe at yahoo.com Thu Jul 19 07:15:19 2001
From: hatharasinghe at yahoo.com (ROSHAN HATHARASINGHE)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:31 2004
Subject: GAS-L: remove my Add from your list
Message-ID: <20010719111252.68613.qmail@web9604.mail.yahoo.com>

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From CAVM at aol.com Thu Jul 19 07:24:32 2001
From: CAVM at aol.com (CAVM@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:31 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Coal Gasification and the ultimate gasifier
Message-ID: <85.d43e7a2.28881c9b@aol.com>

When I asked last month for information on a practical gasifier for small
systems running a generator with producer gas or substituting for propane in
a heater, I received several answers that amounted to "soon to be available",
too impractical, output gas is dangerous or unreliable.

Is there a small gasifier available, or can be built, which will provide
reliable gas for an engine, or to substitute for propane in an heater or
otherwise provide gas for use?

By small I mean running a 30kw gen set or providing enough gas to produce
1,000,000 btu of heat substituting for propane. You pick the fuel. I can
get almost any fuel you can imagine so don't let that hold you back. Poultry
litter would be nice, beef manure would be great, wood chips are fine,
bagasse, corn stover, etc, are all ok with me.

Cornelius A. Van Milligen
CAVM@AOL.com

In a message dated 7/18/2001 10:42:07 PM Central Daylight Time,
graeme@powerlink.co.nz writes:

<< s for the search for the ultimate gasifier, try building one of those I
posted the design for last month. If a rural metal worker cannot make one
out of scrap oil drums for US$100, use 1.2-1.4kg/kWe, get 71% efficiency
from the gasifier and 23% to electricity after the engine, then I'll give
you the US$100 back. Economics and efficiencies is in the know how and the
know why of applying certain principles in the countries of use, not mass
production in China and selling imported gasifiers to rural populations.

So far only one gasifier is being built in a rural workshop in Bolivia, who
else is building? Where are all the questions, or don't those with the need
look to this forum any more?

CUT

Behind the scenes, people like Jane Turnbull work tirelessly for rural
communities and Val Tiangco of the Californian Energy Commission who is
trying to implement projects qualifying for incentive payments on new
renewable energy, or Cordiner Peacock whose gasifier project works so well
its boring! These are the people and issues I'm interested to hear from and
I'd wish more of our lurker" members can be encouraged to contribute once
again.
>>

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Gasification List Archives:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/gasification/current/

Gasification List Moderator:
Tom Reed, Biomass Energy Foundation, Reedtb2@cs.com
www.webpan.com/BEF

From tombreed at home.com Thu Jul 19 08:48:09 2001
From: tombreed at home.com (Thomas Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:31 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Tar Measurement Protocols
Message-ID: <005901c11044$2d7be780$18e5b618@lakwod3.co.home.com>

Dear Gasification and All:

Tars are an annoying, but necessary interest of all who are interested
in biomass gasification. Yet there is no agreement on the definition of
"tars" or how to measure them.

I recently was delighted to find a site <A
href="http://www.tarweb.net">www.tarweb.net on the web. However, there
is no recommended protocol for tar measurement yet available. They invite
your comments.

Following is my comment. I hope many of you will weigh in with your
experiences and recommendations.

~~~~~~~~~

Dear TARWEB:

I have been involved with biomass "tars" for 20 years and there hasn't been
a lot of agreement on what they are or how to measure them. (The Biomass Energy
Press publishes two books on tar measurement - see <A
href="http://www.woodgas.com">www.woodgas.com)

There have been a lot of brave promises of "official" protocols coming out
of the European gasification work, but we are still looking forward to receiving
the official protocol promised at <A
href="http://www.tarweb.com">www.tarweb.com .

Meanwhile, if all the groups interested in gasification of biomass had
waited for "the EEC protocol" to start work, we would have lost decades of
progress. As a result, each group has developed its own methods.

In a recent report on the Varnamo 6 MW high pressure gasifier turbine
system, Krister Stahl says:

"A complicated sampling system is necessary for collecting benzene and
light tars. The system consists of a number of washing bottles in
series. The flow velocity of the gas must be sufficiently low, normally
below 10 l/min, to achieve adequate cooling and good gas/liquid contact in the
bottles. The solutions are analyzed with a gas chromatograph.

The heavier tars (MW .225 g/mol)condense at 150C on the surface of a
condensation tube and on a glass fibre filter. They are then extracted
from the condensation tube and the filter by means of dichloromethane. The
total content of heavy tars is determined gravimetrically and by means of a gas
chromatograph."

The first method described above is really a measurement of "total
condensibles minus water". (Since when is benzene a "tar"?) It will require a
full time employee and $20,000 worth of equipment and significantly slow down
the progress of gasification.

The second method comes closer to what most practical people would describe
as "tars". Cost under $2,000.

The Community Power Corporation in Littleton, CO has been developing small
gasifiers for small utilities in the "Small Modular BIomass Power" program of US
DOE and for others. We have been measuring tars for three years using a
process similar to the second process mentioned above. This provides
us all the feedback we need to minimize heavy tars to under 100
ppm.

I am currently developing a correlation between the heavy tar methods above
and the results from using the "Bacharach Smoke Sampler" (widely used in Europe
and the U.S. to measure smoke in oil combustion). I will report the
results at the 5th Biomass of the Americas conference in September.

I would appreciate receiving all comments on the three methods in the next
month as I collect data for the cross correlation.

Yours truly, Tom Reed The BIomass Energy
Corporation

Dr. Thomas Reed
The Biomass Energy Foundation 1810 Smith Rd., Golden, CO 80401303
278 0558; <A
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From tombreed at home.com Thu Jul 19 08:58:18 2001
From: tombreed at home.com (Thomas Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:31 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Change subject as needed..
Message-ID: <008701c11045$92e2a7c0$18e5b618@lakwod3.co.home.com>

Dear all:

I thoroughly agree with Graeme's comments on the various things discussed
under the subject "Coal Gasification". Some of them actually dealt with
Coal Gasification, but most of them should have been given new SUBJECT headings
for the archives, and many of them should have been taken to other forums.

Please, please, let us limit this forum to subjects at least
peripherally dealing with biomass gasification.

Tom
Reed
FORUM MODERATOR
Dr. Thomas Reed
The Biomass Energy Foundation 1810 Smith Rd., Golden, CO 80401303
278 0558; <A
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From kchishol at fox.nstn.ca Thu Jul 19 09:18:10 2001
From: kchishol at fox.nstn.ca (Kevin Chisholm)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:31 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Coal Gasification and the ultimate gasifier
In-Reply-To: <85.d43e7a2.28881c9b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBLHHHOLFOEGCILKHEKELHCOAA.kchishol@fox.nstn.ca>

Dear Neal

You indirectly pose an interesting challenge!! Clearly, you have a need for
such a gasifier, and can pay a reasonable price for it.

1: What is the desired fuel gas output, in terms of BTU/Hr, and teh minimum
BTU/Cubic foot calorific value?

2: What temperature and cleanliness considerations determine the final gas
specification?

3: How many such units could you buy per year?

4: How much could you afford to pay for each unit?

Because of the potential variability in feed materials ands site conditions,
I would propose that you would provide the "fuel pre-handling facilities"
that would prepare and deliver the feed material to a "gasifier conveyor" on
an "as required basis." I would also propose that you would provide all
utilities, and buildings, as required.

Under these conditions, it should be reasonably easy for many ppl on this
list to determine if they could design, build and deliver a suitable
gasifier system.

Kindest regards,

Kevin Chisholm

> -----Original Message-----
> From: CAVM@aol.com [mailto:CAVM@aol.com]
> Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2001 8:21 AM
> To: graeme@powerlink.co.nz; gasification@crest.org
> Subject: Re: GAS-L: Coal Gasification and the ultimate gasifier
>
>
> When I asked last month for information on a practical gasifier for small
> systems running a generator with producer gas or substituting for
> propane in
> a heater, I received several answers that amounted to "soon to be
> available",
> too impractical, output gas is dangerous or unreliable.
>
> Is there a small gasifier available, or can be built, which will provide
> reliable gas for an engine, or to substitute for propane in an heater or
> otherwise provide gas for use?
>
> By small I mean running a 30kw gen set or providing enough gas to produce
> 1,000,000 btu of heat substituting for propane. You pick the
> fuel. I can
> get almost any fuel you can imagine so don't let that hold you
> back. Poultry
> litter would be nice, beef manure would be great, wood chips are fine,
> bagasse, corn stover, etc, are all ok with me.
>
> Cornelius A. Van Milligen
> CAVM@AOL.com
>
> In a message dated 7/18/2001 10:42:07 PM Central Daylight Time,
> graeme@powerlink.co.nz writes:
>
> << s for the search for the ultimate gasifier, try building one of those I
> posted the design for last month. If a rural metal worker
> cannot make one
> out of scrap oil drums for US$100, use 1.2-1.4kg/kWe, get 71% efficiency
> from the gasifier and 23% to electricity after the engine, then I'll give
> you the US$100 back. Economics and efficiencies is in the know
> how and the
> know why of applying certain principles in the countries of use, not mass
> production in China and selling imported gasifiers to rural populations.
>
> So far only one gasifier is being built in a rural workshop in
> Bolivia, who
> else is building? Where are all the questions, or don't those
> with the need
> look to this forum any more?
>
> CUT
>
> Behind the scenes, people like Jane Turnbull work tirelessly for rural
> communities and Val Tiangco of the Californian Energy Commission who is
> trying to implement projects qualifying for incentive payments on new
> renewable energy, or Cordiner Peacock whose gasifier project
> works so well
> its boring! These are the people and issues I'm interested to
> hear from and
> I'd wish more of our lurker" members can be encouraged to
> contribute once
> again.
> >>
>
> -
> Gasification List Archives:
> http://www.crest.org/discussion/gasification/current/
>
> Gasification List Moderator:
> Tom Reed, Biomass Energy Foundation, Reedtb2@cs.com
> www.webpan.com/BEF
>
> Sponsor the Gasification List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html
> -
> Other Gasification Events and Information:
> http://www.fsec.ucf.edu/bioam/
> http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml
> http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
>
>
>
>

-
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www.webpan.com/BEF

From CAVM at aol.com Thu Jul 19 09:47:38 2001
From: CAVM at aol.com (CAVM@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:31 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Coal Gasification and the ultimate gasifier
Message-ID: <72.d3fee14.28883e2d@aol.com>

We could use 250 units this summer which produce clean enough gas to replace
propane in the heating systems of poultry houses. These houses are heated
using open flame "brood heaters" which reflect the heat from the open flame
off of a conical cover like a coolie hat made of metal. I need to be able to
produce enough for 1,000,000 btu per hour or maybe 2,000,000 btu per hour in
the propane system.

If the system is reliable and self-operating, we could pay a reasonable price
but less than we would have to pay for an equivelant biomass combustion
system to do the same using hot water heat. Say perhaps $50,000 to $100,000
each.

Is this out of the question?

We can also use a system to produce gas for a gen set in Mexico. I don't
know how much gas or what btu would be required but I can estimate that we
need 30 wk to 100 kw of electrical power on the site. Whether this is a
microturbine job or an internal combustion engine job, I don't know.

Neal Van Milligen
CAVM@AOL.com

In a message dated 7/19/2001 8:15:46 AM Central Daylight Time,
kchishol@fox.nstn.ca writes:

<<
You indirectly pose an interesting challenge!! Clearly, you have a need for
such a gasifier, and can pay a reasonable price for it.

1: What is the desired fuel gas output, in terms of BTU/Hr, and teh minimum
BTU/Cubic foot calorific value?

2: What temperature and cleanliness considerations determine the final gas
specification?

3: How many such units could you buy per year?

4: How much could you afford to pay for each unit?

Because of the potential variability in feed materials ands site conditions,
I would propose that you would provide the "fuel pre-handling facilities" >>

-
Gasification List Archives:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/gasification/current/

Gasification List Moderator:
Tom Reed, Biomass Energy Foundation, Reedtb2@cs.com
www.webpan.com/BEF

From chiptec at together.net Thu Jul 19 10:31:13 2001
From: chiptec at together.net (Brad Noviski)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:31 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Remove from list
In-Reply-To: <008701c11045$92e2a7c0$18e5b618@lakwod3.co.home.com>
Message-ID: <MABBKMLCIGLOAKNMJCKOEEHLCBAA.chiptec@together.net>

Please remove me from the list

Thank you

Brad

-----Original Message-----From: Thomas Reed
[mailto:tombreed@home.com]Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2001 7:26
AMTo: gasificationSubject: GAS-L: Change subject as
needed..
Dear all:

I thoroughly agree with Graeme's comments on the various things discussed
under the subject "Coal Gasification". Some of them actually dealt with
Coal Gasification, but most of them should have been given new SUBJECT
headings for the archives, and many of them should have been taken to other
forums.

Please, please, let us limit this forum to subjects at least
peripherally dealing with biomass gasification.

Tom
Reed
FORUM MODERATOR
Dr. Thomas
Reed The Biomass Energy Foundation 1810 Smith Rd., Golden,
CO 80401303 278 0558; <A
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From snkm at btl.net Thu Jul 19 11:04:37 2001
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:31 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Biomass "Micro" power and Stirlings, Uniflows, steam reformation, fuel cells, sewage sludge, Dougs frustration with this list!
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20010719090007.00987bd0@wgs1.btl.net>

At 06:13 AM 7/19/2001 +0200, you wrote:
>peter,
>briefly: where are details to be found about that "uniflow" ??? thomas
>--
>der kleine deutsche oeko-pilz-anbauer \
>the small german organic mushroomer http://www.biopilze.de/wir.htm
>le petit eco - champignoneur allemand /
>

Thom;

I utilize a number of ancient texts for most of the theory of uniflow
designs -- and have as of yet to find any of that on the net.

Guess I should be trying again --

On page 1013 on my old (1924) Mark's Engineering hand book they show a
picture of a "Stumpf" uniflow (or Unaflow)

So -- search "uniflow" or "unaflow" or "stumpf"

Now -- regarding present day efforts -- this is a very interesting example:

http://www.mygale.org/~rossen/wcengine.html

This is an incredible site regarding making a uniflow from an old lister
diesel -- using pop "bash" valves and gmc diesel sleeves.

The site is referenced at:

"Heat Engine Projects"

http://www.redrok.com/engine.htm

Which is pretty well the best site for all kinds of heat engine researching.

I believe all modern made steam engines are of uniflow design.

It is the poor mans replacement for the turbine -- and get this -- gives
much better engine efficiencies than a turbine in the micro plants.

In my opinion -- steam engines are much better for all small power plant
projects than steam turbines.

However -- small steam based power plants suffer from low over all
efficiencies due to the low quality steam they are using.

Ergo -- my drive to improve the working fluid cycles.

In that short example posted -- rather than the first section being a
Stirling -- make it a steam cycle uniflow -- the second uniflow -- stays
butane cycle.

Uniflows -- as you will soon see -- can be built easily by almost anyone
and in 3rd world countries.

A conventional small steam power plant -- very well tuned -- could get 5%
over all fuel to power efficiencies.

This always a low efficiency steam system -- of say -- 200 psi -- saturated
-- steam.

If one could run a small boiler at the same conditions as the White Cliffs -

The White Cliffs engine configuration is:

Bore: 98.4mm
Stroke: 114.3mm
Number of Cylinders: 3
Maximum Steam Pressure: 70 kg/cm2 (abs) (6.9 MPa)
Maximum Steam Temperature: 450°
Condenser Pressure: 0.25 kg/cm2 (abs) (24.5 KPa)
Expansion Ratio (Adjustable): 1.25 (used)
Lubrication: as in Lister engine
Lubricant: specially selected
Measured Efficiency (at Steam Pressure 42 kg/cm2, Temperature 415°): 21.9%

(at steam conditions of 415C (779F) and pressure of 42/kg/cm2 (600 psi)

That is 21.9% engine efficiency -- figure boiler efficiency using biomass
(or gasifier) at 65%

21.9 * 65 = 14.2 % over all efficiencies

(starting to get respectable)

Energy balance this with a second uniflow on butane cycle -- picking up at
least another 20% of "waste" heat --

Energy report.

Boiler: 100% to 65%

Steam Engine: extracts 20% -- (65% * 80% = 52%)

So 52% balance of original heat value of fuel -- now extracting a further 20%

52% * 20% = 10.4%

So now engine extraction of "total" available (from boiler) heat = 30.4%

Net over all efficiencies = 30.4% * 65% = 19.8%

So -- say 20% over all can be achieved in a small system using a such a
device -- directly from biomass.

Now -- if we use diesel as "fuel" -- and the standard -- conservative --
85% boiler efficiencies -

30.4% * 85% = 26% over all efficiency.

Plus -- ace in the hole -- heating butane feed in flue stack gasses -- make
the engine efficiency of 30% now 35%!!

As now we extract energy from lost heat in furnace process -- a freebie --
and an extra.

So --

Biomass: 35% * 65% = 22.75% over all

Diesel: 35% * 85% = 30% over all

Ergo -- we study the uniflow --

I have a really good design that eliminates all lubrication for sealing --
piston and valves -- with no leaks! And can be build for a handfull of
dollars in a linear application.

The interesting part here is this:

One can get the same over all efficiencies -- maybe even better -- by just
working a butane cycle uniflow. That is no steam cycle -- but butane super
heated to 450F at 500 psi pressure.

Directly fired butane boiler. But makes people very nervous!

And turning back full circle -- "if" one could acquire stirlings at a
reasonable price -- those same high end efficiencies could even be
increased using a binary cylce as described in the original posting.

What is extremely attractive in that case is one "loses" the boiler!!

Decisions -- decisions!!

This probably all adds to the general confusion -- and a great price tag
for proto-type development.

However -- mass production -- would greatly reduce costs and could make
such a system viable.

30% over all efficiency -- from fuel to electrical power -- in a
small/micro power plant burning biomass would be the great technological
break through for the beginning of the 21st century!

That and/or a small biomass steam reformer to directly power a fuel cell!!
Which also would break and exceed the 30% mark (properly done -- better
than 40%).

Gasifying biomass through steam reformation -- rather than partial
oxidation using "air" -- at small/micro scale -- is another area of
technology that needs further investigation. I still see no reasons why not
-- and it offers the bonus of processing "wet" biomass fuels yet still
getting total energy recovery!! (No "steam" heat losses up the stack!)

Of interest to this list -- the best way to enter into steam reforming is
along the exact same lines the car makers are using. Partial combustion
with air to fuel the steam reforming of "product" to fuel-cell grade "gas".
A neat closed cycle that I have yet to hear one person on this list pick-up
on yet!

So Thom -- search some more on these new automotive fuel-cell systems! If
they can do this with gasoline -- their is no reason the same can not be
achieved with a regular gasifiet product from biomasses! Though one still
has the same fuel condtioning problems (the curse of partial oxidation of
bimass gasifiers) -- it would be a start in the right direction.

Though we have seen examples posted to this list of "dirty" (tars etc)
gasifiers that need much less than conventional IC motor product suppliers
fuel conditioning -- and tars definitly steam reform further down the line
-- and as the system runs at full bore temperatures -- do not have anywhere
to condense out!

Now that "break-through" certainly would be the death blow to stirlings and
uniflows.

Also -- linear alternators -- another technical breakthrough just waiting
to be applied! (though a waste of time and energy if fuel cells operating
directly from biomasses become order of the day)

(Decisions -- decisions!!)

Everything seems to be in place -- now it is a matter of simple "assembly".

Unfortunately -- and as always -- the people interested and willing to work
on these style projects are also the same people with no means to do so.

Maybe the 22nd centure?? (23rd?? -- 24rth?? -- etc??)

Probably the car makers will have all this worked out in 2 years time!

That is partial oxidation gasification of a fuel to fire a steam
reformation process to produce product that can be directly applied to a
high efficiency fuel cell -- producing 3 to 5 kwh.

Mind boggling -- ingnored "technology" on this list (even though it is all
about "gasification") -- but coming soon to a car near you ---

I just know Doug Williams will be getting upset to hear such talk on this
list. After all -- we are looking at a flush toilet that conects directly
to a small filter belt press producing 55% or less humidity sewage sludge
that then feeds an altered car fuel cell gaasifier -- generating electrical
power for the house -- at the same time feed in the grass clipping and sort
your garbage --

Then who needs big gasifiers of filter press sludge to supply grid?? And
where would Doug be? Certainly not investigating any of the above -- to
small for him to look over!!

And on that subject -- one more "gift" to this list -- how to make raw
sewage into filter press??

Here is the best solution -- "DEWA":

http://www.dwteng.com/dewabelts.htm

Now you out there wondering what to do with raw sewage have another fuel
processing proceedure.

So -- we depend on the Car Makers -- not the gasifier crew -- for the next
round of inovative technology in "Gasification" -- and the production of
electical power -- to relieve the world energy crisis.

Is that your "message" Doug??

Peter Singfield / Belize

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Gasification List Moderator:
Tom Reed, Biomass Energy Foundation, Reedtb2@cs.com
www.webpan.com/BEF

From luizmagri at yahoo.com Thu Jul 19 22:52:54 2001
From: luizmagri at yahoo.com (Luiz Alberto Magri)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:31 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Alcohol fuel still plans and designs
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20010710080535.00a1c920@wgs1.btl.net>
Message-ID: <20010720025024.53713.qmail@web11707.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Peter Singfield <snkm@btl.net> wrote:
>
> Hi Keith;
>
> All very interesting.
>
> But dated and small scale.
>
> Do you, or anyone else, have any urls regarding
> Brazil's endeavors at
> commercial levels in production of alcohol from
> sugar cane??
>
> I remember hearing that Brazil had almost replaced
> gasoline for vehicles
> with ethyl alcohol produced from sugar cane.
>
Hi Peter,

Some short notes from Brasil... locally acquired.

1) Technology for using of alchool at vehicle engines
has been successfully achieved. So, OK, no need for
"reinventing the wheel".

2) 22% of alchool mixture on petrol has been a
sensible solution I think. Lead has not been used
since we have started to mix the fuels (alchool
prevents detonation) - then less polution. Also the
fuel is the same for everyone (it's not so easy to the
market managing two differently fueled fleets).

3) Reduction on full-alchool fueled fleet is mainly a
consequence of market decisions. I'm not sure it would
be much different at any other place. Companies
usually prefer to make money than anything else.
Including alternative fuels.

I hope this info is usefull.

Luiz Magri
Rio de Janeiro

__________________________________________________
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From neeft at ecn.nl Fri Jul 20 13:32:48 2001
From: neeft at ecn.nl (Neeft, John)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:31 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Tar Measurement Protocols
Message-ID: <92D6AAE888CED411A16A00508BB0B827342EEA@ecntex.ecn.nl>

Dear Thomas Reed and Gasification,

The recommended Protocol (or Guideline as we prefer to call it) will be
available on www.tarweb.net in about three months time. We have postponed
publishing the current version as - when testing it in our own labs - we
found an insufficient collection efficiency for larger compounds.

What we found is that aerosols (small tar droplets which are formed when
producer gases are cooled down) pass our standard impinger train. We
strongly suspect that this problem also occurs in impinger trains used by
other institutions. We will publish our results, meanwhile contact us (see
list of people below) if you would like to discuss details.

We communicated the above by mail to all people and institutions involved or
showing interest in our project. I have pasted this mail as an Appendix to
this reply. It was send end of June this year.

Tom writes "Meanwhile, if all the groups interested in gasification of
biomass had waited for "the EEC protocol" to start work, we would have lost
decades of progress. As a result, each group has developed its own
methods."
I have two replies to this comment.
My first reply is that the Guideline is being developed _in response_ of all
methods that were developed prior to April 2000 when our project started,
and even prior to March 1998 when the diversity of tar measurement methods
was first adressed in a large group of gasification experts called together
at an IEA gasification task meeting in Brussels. We know of no new methods
that were developed since then, we get questions of people who start
measuring tars and we give advise to those people.
The second reply is that I suggest that we stop nagging and instead start an
open discussion on how we want to compare data on tar concentrations from
different locations and on how to deal with the many methods and definitions
that exist. The gasification list is probably a very good place to have such
a discussion, so thank you for your starting this discussion, Tom.

Finally some words on "tar definition". There have been groups of people who
agreed on a definition of "tar" (see proceedings below). However, for every
group of people to agree on a definition, there are other people who
disagree.
I will not give answers, rather pose two more questions:
- do you think we will ever be able to come with a commonly
accepted definition of the (ambiguous and general) word "tar"?
- do you think a definition of "tar" is necessary to compare data?

For those interested: have a look at two conference proceedings:
http://www.tarweb.net/results/paper-sevilla.pdf and
http://www.tarweb.net/results/paper-tirol.pdf.

Best regards,

John Neeft
ECN - Energy research Centre of the Netherlands

Appendix - copy of e-mail message send to people and institutions involved
or interested in the Tar Guideine

> Dear all,
>
> The contractors of the EU project "Tar Protocol" have tested and
evaluated
> version 2.1 of the Guideline (new name for the Protocol) by field
> measurements performed in connection with national R&D projects
wich are
> carried out parallel to the EU project. We have found that the
collection
> efficiency of the Guideline and of other longer-used methods is
sometimes
> poor, in particular for relatively large tar compounds such as
anthracene,
> pyrene and larger.
> The reason for this lower collection efficiency appears to be the
formation
> of aerosols which pass the impinger bottles. Recently we found
that the use
> of a filter in between the impingers, or the use of porous glass
frits
> integrated in the impinger bottles, increases the collection
efficiency;
>
> These results imply that the sampling train of the Guideline will
be
> modified. Before making modifications we will:
> * ensure that we can avoid tars passing the sampling train by
the use
> of filters or frits, and/or by a completedly new layout;
> * re-assess the solvent used as we now have indications that
lower
> efficiencies that were measured in the past were not primarily
caused by
> poor properties of the solvent. The current solvent
1-methoxy-2-propanol
> causes that some of the small tar compounds cannot be analysed due
to
> overlap with the solvent;
> * re-assess the temperature of sampling;
> * test a new easy-to-use and robust sampling train setup which
will
> possibly be included in the Guideline;
> * test and evaluate improved analytical procedures;
>
> We are committed to come with a publishable version of the
Guideline as soon
> as possible - our aim is to make a final choice for the solvent in
September
> this year, to make the Guideline available soon after and to
finish the
> short-term (important on the short term) R&D work near the end of
this year.
> We hope you can find sympathy for our position - we have run into
more
> complicated phenomena than we anticipated at the start of this
project.
>
> If you have any questions or would like to have additional
information, feel
> free to contact one of us.
>
> John Neeft and Sander van Paasen - ECN
> Harrie Knoef, Gert-Jan Buffinga and Elwin Gansekoele - BTG
> Mark Dorrington - CRE
> Uwe Zielke and Erik Meldgaard Andersen - DTI
> Krister Sjöström and Claes Brage - KTH
> Philip Hasler - Verenum
> Pekka Simell and Marjut Suomalainen - VTT
>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Thomas Reed [SMTP:tombreed@home.com]
> Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2001 1:16 PM
> To: gasification
> Cc: King Browne; Art Lilley; Robb Walt
> Subject: GAS-L: Tar Measurement Protocols
>
> Dear Gasification and All:
>
> Tars are an annoying, but necessary interest of all who are interested in
> biomass gasification. Yet there is no agreement on the definition of
> "tars" or how to measure them.
>
> I recently was delighted to find a site www.tarweb.net
> <http://www.tarweb.net> on the web. However, there is no recommended
> protocol for tar measurement yet available. They invite your comments.
>
> Following is my comment. I hope many of you will weigh in with your
> experiences and recommendations.
> ~~~~~~~~~
>
> Dear TARWEB:
>
> I have been involved with biomass "tars" for 20 years and there hasn't
> been a lot of agreement on what they are or how to measure them. (The
> Biomass Energy Press publishes two books on tar measurement - see
> www.woodgas.com <http://www.woodgas.com>)
>
> There have been a lot of brave promises of "official" protocols coming out
> of the European gasification work, but we are still looking forward to
> receiving the official protocol promised at www.tarweb.com
> <http://www.tarweb.com> .
>
> Meanwhile, if all the groups interested in gasification of biomass had
> waited for "the EEC protocol" to start work, we would have lost decades
> of progress. As a result, each group has developed its own methods.
>
> In a recent report on the Varnamo 6 MW high pressure gasifier turbine
> system, Krister Stahl says:
>
> "A complicated sampling system is necessary for collecting benzene and
> light tars. The system consists of a number of washing bottles in series.
> The flow velocity of the gas must be sufficiently low, normally below 10
> l/min, to achieve adequate cooling and good gas/liquid contact in the
> bottles. The solutions are analyzed with a gas chromatograph.
>
> The heavier tars (MW .225 g/mol)condense at 150C on the surface of a
> condensation tube and on a glass fibre filter. They are then extracted
> from the condensation tube and the filter by means of dichloromethane.
> The total content of heavy tars is determined gravimetrically and by means
> of a gas chromatograph."
>
> The first method described above is really a measurement of "total
> condensibles minus water". (Since when is benzene a "tar"?) It will
> require a full time employee and $20,000 worth of equipment and
> significantly slow down the progress of gasification.
>
> The second method comes closer to what most practical people would
> describe as "tars". Cost under $2,000.
>
> The Community Power Corporation in Littleton, CO has been developing small
> gasifiers for small utilities in the "Small Modular BIomass Power" program
> of US DOE and for others. We have been measuring tars for three years
> using a process similar to the second process mentioned above. This
> provides us all the feedback we need to minimize heavy tars to under 100
> ppm.
>
> I am currently developing a correlation between the heavy tar methods
> above and the results from using the "Bacharach Smoke Sampler" (widely
> used in Europe and the U.S. to measure smoke in oil combustion). I will
> report the results at the 5th Biomass of the Americas conference in
> September.
>
> I would appreciate receiving all comments on the three methods in the next
> month as I collect data for the cross correlation.
>
> Yours truly, Tom Reed The BIomass Energy Corporation
>
>
> Dr. Thomas Reed
> The Biomass Energy Foundation
> 1810 Smith Rd., Golden, CO 80401
> 303 278 0558; tombreed@home.com <mailto:tombreed@home.com> << File:
> Ivy.gif >>

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www.webpan.com/BEF

From tombreed at home.com Sun Jul 22 20:49:15 2001
From: tombreed at home.com (Thomas Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:31 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Tar Measurement Protocols
Message-ID: <002a01c11310$0ea54080$18e5b618@lakwod3.co.home.com>

Dear John and Robb and Gasification:

This is a very nice response from John Neeft to my very moderate Email to
www.tarweb.net a few days ago. Doesn't sound like we are going to have
trouble and we can move forward.

John asks " I will not give answers, rather pose two more questions:
> - do you think we will ever be able to come with a commonly
> accepted definition of the (ambiguous and general) word "tar"?

I WOULD HOPE THAT WE WILL FIND A SIMPLER METHOD OF DAY TO DAY MEASUREMENT
FOR EACH APPLICATION, AND DEFINE "TAR" BY THE RESULTS OF THAT AGREED ON
MEASUREMENT. THERE WOULD THEN BE

TAR(IC, DIESEL) IN WHICH WE MEASURED THOSE TARS PARTICULARLY LIKELY TO TRASH
AN ENGINE

TAR(TURBINE) IN WHICH WE MEASURE THOSE TARS CAUSING TROUBLE FOR TURBINES

TAR (STIRLING) IN WHICH WE... ETC.

TAR (FUELS CELL)...
THESE ARE OF COURSE ALL STILL TO BE DEFINED.

> - do you think a definition of "tar" is necessary to compare data?

ABSOLUTELY SINCE ONE MAN'S "TAR" IS ANOTHER MAN'S FUEL
>
Onward...

TOM REED

From: "Neeft, John" <neeft@ecn.nl>
To: "gasification" <gasification@crest.org>
Sent: Friday, July 20, 2001 11:30 AM
Subject: RE: GAS-L: Tar Measurement Protocols

>
> Dear Thomas Reed and Gasification,
>
> The recommended Protocol (or Guideline as we prefer to call it) will be
> available on www.tarweb.net in about three months time. We have postponed
> publishing the current version as - when testing it in our own labs - we
> found an insufficient collection efficiency for larger compounds.
>
> What we found is that aerosols (small tar droplets which are formed when
> producer gases are cooled down) pass our standard impinger train. We
> strongly suspect that this problem also occurs in impinger trains used by
> other institutions. We will publish our results, meanwhile contact us (see
> list of people below) if you would like to discuss details.
>
> We communicated the above by mail to all people and institutions involved
or
> showing interest in our project. I have pasted this mail as an Appendix to
> this reply. It was send end of June this year.
>
> Tom writes "Meanwhile, if all the groups interested in gasification of
> biomass had waited for "the EEC protocol" to start work, we would have
lost
> decades of progress. As a result, each group has developed its own
> methods."
> I have two replies to this comment.
> My first reply is that the Guideline is being developed _in response_ of
all
> methods that were developed prior to April 2000 when our project started,
> and even prior to March 1998 when the diversity of tar measurement methods
> was first adressed in a large group of gasification experts called
together
> at an IEA gasification task meeting in Brussels. We know of no new methods
> that were developed since then, we get questions of people who start
> measuring tars and we give advise to those people.
> The second reply is that I suggest that we stop nagging and instead start
an
> open discussion on how we want to compare data on tar concentrations from
> different locations and on how to deal with the many methods and
definitions
> that exist. The gasification list is probably a very good place to have
such
> a discussion, so thank you for your starting this discussion, Tom.
>
> Finally some words on "tar definition". There have been groups of people
who
> agreed on a definition of "tar" (see proceedings below). However, for
every
> group of people to agree on a definition, there are other people who
> disagree.
> I will not give answers, rather pose two more questions:
> - do you think we will ever be able to come with a commonly
> accepted definition of the (ambiguous and general) word "tar"?
> - do you think a definition of "tar" is necessary to compare data?
>
> For those interested: have a look at two conference proceedings:
> http://www.tarweb.net/results/paper-sevilla.pdf and
> http://www.tarweb.net/results/paper-tirol.pdf.
>
> Best regards,
>
> John Neeft
> ECN - Energy research Centre of the Netherlands
>
>
> Appendix - copy of e-mail message send to people and institutions involved
> or interested in the Tar Guideine
>
> > Dear all,
> >
> > The contractors of the EU project "Tar Protocol" have tested and
> evaluated
> > version 2.1 of the Guideline (new name for the Protocol) by field
> > measurements performed in connection with national R&D projects
> wich are
> > carried out parallel to the EU project. We have found that the
> collection
> > efficiency of the Guideline and of other longer-used methods is
> sometimes
> > poor, in particular for relatively large tar compounds such as
> anthracene,
> > pyrene and larger.
> > The reason for this lower collection efficiency appears to be the
> formation
> > of aerosols which pass the impinger bottles. Recently we found
> that the use
> > of a filter in between the impingers, or the use of porous glass
> frits
> > integrated in the impinger bottles, increases the collection
> efficiency;
> >
> > These results imply that the sampling train of the Guideline will
> be
> > modified. Before making modifications we will:
> > * ensure that we can avoid tars passing the sampling train by
> the use
> > of filters or frits, and/or by a completedly new layout;
> > * re-assess the solvent used as we now have indications that
> lower
> > efficiencies that were measured in the past were not primarily
> caused by
> > poor properties of the solvent. The current solvent
> 1-methoxy-2-propanol
> > causes that some of the small tar compounds cannot be analysed due
> to
> > overlap with the solvent;
> > * re-assess the temperature of sampling;
> > * test a new easy-to-use and robust sampling train setup which
> will
> > possibly be included in the Guideline;
> > * test and evaluate improved analytical procedures;
> >
> > We are committed to come with a publishable version of the
> Guideline as soon
> > as possible - our aim is to make a final choice for the solvent in
> September
> > this year, to make the Guideline available soon after and to
> finish the
> > short-term (important on the short term) R&D work near the end of
> this year.
> > We hope you can find sympathy for our position - we have run into
> more
> > complicated phenomena than we anticipated at the start of this
> project.
> >
> > If you have any questions or would like to have additional
> information, feel
> > free to contact one of us.
> >
> > John Neeft and Sander van Paasen - ECN
> > Harrie Knoef, Gert-Jan Buffinga and Elwin Gansekoele - BTG
> > Mark Dorrington - CRE
> > Uwe Zielke and Erik Meldgaard Andersen - DTI
> > Krister Sjöström and Claes Brage - KTH
> > Philip Hasler - Verenum
> > Pekka Simell and Marjut Suomalainen - VTT
> >
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Thomas Reed [SMTP:tombreed@home.com]
> > Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2001 1:16 PM
> > To: gasification
> > Cc: King Browne; Art Lilley; Robb Walt
> > Subject: GAS-L: Tar Measurement Protocols
> >
> > Dear Gasification and All:
> >
> > Tars are an annoying, but necessary interest of all who are interested
in
> > biomass gasification. Yet there is no agreement on the definition of
> > "tars" or how to measure them.
> >
> > I recently was delighted to find a site www.tarweb.net
> > <http://www.tarweb.net> on the web. However, there is no recommended
> > protocol for tar measurement yet available. They invite your comments.
> >
> > Following is my comment. I hope many of you will weigh in with your
> > experiences and recommendations.
> > ~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > Dear TARWEB:
> >
> > I have been involved with biomass "tars" for 20 years and there hasn't
> > been a lot of agreement on what they are or how to measure them. (The
> > Biomass Energy Press publishes two books on tar measurement - see
> > www.woodgas.com <http://www.woodgas.com>)
> >
> > There have been a lot of brave promises of "official" protocols coming
out
> > of the European gasification work, but we are still looking forward to
> > receiving the official protocol promised at www.tarweb.com
> > <http://www.tarweb.com> .
> >
> > Meanwhile, if all the groups interested in gasification of biomass had
> > waited for "the EEC protocol" to start work, we would have lost decades
> > of progress. As a result, each group has developed its own methods.
> >
> > In a recent report on the Varnamo 6 MW high pressure gasifier turbine
> > system, Krister Stahl says:
> >
> > "A complicated sampling system is necessary for collecting benzene and
> > light tars. The system consists of a number of washing bottles in
series.
> > The flow velocity of the gas must be sufficiently low, normally below 10
> > l/min, to achieve adequate cooling and good gas/liquid contact in the
> > bottles. The solutions are analyzed with a gas chromatograph.
> >
> > The heavier tars (MW .225 g/mol)condense at 150C on the surface of a
> > condensation tube and on a glass fibre filter. They are then extracted
> > from the condensation tube and the filter by means of dichloromethane.
> > The total content of heavy tars is determined gravimetrically and by
means
> > of a gas chromatograph."
> >
> > The first method described above is really a measurement of "total
> > condensibles minus water". (Since when is benzene a "tar"?) It will
> > require a full time employee and $20,000 worth of equipment and
> > significantly slow down the progress of gasification.
> >
> > The second method comes closer to what most practical people would
> > describe as "tars". Cost under $2,000.
> >
> > The Community Power Corporation in Littleton, CO has been developing
small
> > gasifiers for small utilities in the "Small Modular BIomass Power"
program
> > of US DOE and for others. We have been measuring tars for three years
> > using a process similar to the second process mentioned above. This
> > provides us all the feedback we need to minimize heavy tars to under 100
> > ppm.
> >
> > I am currently developing a correlation between the heavy tar methods
> > above and the results from using the "Bacharach Smoke Sampler" (widely
> > used in Europe and the U.S. to measure smoke in oil combustion). I will
> > report the results at the 5th Biomass of the Americas conference in
> > September.
> >
> > I would appreciate receiving all comments on the three methods in the
next
> > month as I collect data for the cross correlation.
> >
> > Yours truly, Tom Reed The BIomass Energy Corporation
> >
> >
> > Dr. Thomas Reed
> > The Biomass Energy Foundation
> > 1810 Smith Rd., Golden, CO 80401
> > 303 278 0558; tombreed@home.com <mailto:tombreed@home.com> << File:
> > Ivy.gif >>
>
> -
> Gasification List Archives:
> http://www.crest.org/discussion/gasification/current/
>
> Gasification List Moderator:
> Tom Reed, Biomass Energy Foundation, Reedtb2@cs.com
> www.webpan.com/BEF
>
> Sponsor the Gasification List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html
> -
> Other Gasification Events and Information:
> http://www.fsec.ucf.edu/bioam/
> http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml
> http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
>

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www.webpan.com/BEF

From claush at et.dtu.dk Mon Jul 23 08:42:49 2001
From: claush at et.dtu.dk (Claus Hindsgaul)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:31 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Tar Measurement Protocols
In-Reply-To: <002a01c11310$0ea54080$18e5b618@lakwod3.co.home.com>
Message-ID: <20010723144853.SM00788@there>

mandag den 23. juli 2001 02:40 skrev Thomas Reed:
> I WOULD HOPE THAT WE WILL FIND A SIMPLER METHOD OF DAY TO DAY MEASUREMENT
> FOR EACH APPLICATION, AND DEFINE "TAR" BY THE RESULTS OF THAT AGREED ON
> MEASUREMENT. THERE WOULD THEN BE
>
> TAR(IC, DIESEL) IN WHICH WE MEASURED THOSE TARS PARTICULARLY LIKELY TO
> TRASH AN ENGINE
>
> TAR(TURBINE) IN WHICH WE MEASURE THOSE TARS CAUSING TROUBLE FOR TURBINES
>
> TAR (STIRLING) IN WHICH WE... ETC.
>
> TAR (FUELS CELL)...
> THESE ARE OF COURSE ALL STILL TO BE DEFINED.

This would indeed be very operational measures. This would make it easy to
evaluate the suitability of a certain gas for different purposes.

The trouble is, that we have yet quite limited knowledge on which components
actually trash e.g. IC engines, and which components are harmless.
If we can agree on definitions like those above today, we will have to
continually updated the definitions.

Maybe low tech, non compound specific definitions like "the mass of material
condensing on a 500C surface in a well defined setup" or "rate of corrosion a
specific metal at a specific temperature" would be nice in order to acheave
the above classifications. The actual specifications could be tuned to match
specific end uses for the gas (as Tomas outlined above). Though, it may be
hard to measure such values within days or even weeks.

However such definitions, give limited information that can be used to
identify and eliminate the troublesome compounds. These may only be
determined by expensive methods identifying specific compounds or compound
families.

What do you think?

Claus

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From markus at asco.co.nz Mon Jul 23 21:28:53 2001
From: markus at asco.co.nz (Markus Benter-Lynch)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:31 2004
Subject: GAS-L: wood gas combustion
Message-ID: <01C11444.6B0F6FF0.markus@asco.co.nz>

Hi everyone,

I am after an explanation for a phenomenon which I have observed during the
direct combustion of gases from batch gasification of wood (the gases
released after gasification are burned in an adjacent combustion chamber
immediately):

It appears that the "gases" released during the start of the batch
gasification process burn in a much more stable fashion than the ones
released later. Is this because they are released in a more continuous
fashion than the gases released towards the end of the gasification
process, when the wood in the gasifier has nearly been carbonised? The
gasification process is a fixed bed, cross draft type.

Any leads would be much appreciated!

Thanks and regards
Markus Benter-Lynch

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From graeme at powerlink.co.nz Mon Jul 23 23:18:55 2001
From: graeme at powerlink.co.nz (Graeme Williams)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:31 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Message from Doug
Message-ID: <000901c113ee$f84fad40$100f37d2@graeme>

Hello Peter in Belize

What a surprise I had to see my name in the lead headers of todays'
gasification Digest, and you should be responding to something I had
written! As I only write about gasification, its surprising that you read
it as your postings clearly indicate a wide range of other interests.

For quite a while now, I had suspicions that Peter in Belize was actually a
search engine funded by shonky investment companies and technologies for
model engineering clubs. Triggered by key words it spews out a
pre-programmed collection of data and irrelevant trivia which picked up by
the uninitiated is passed around as marketable knowledge.

Anyway, scrolling down the Digest through the usual repeated files of
previous messages that follow each revelation which allows each writer to
remember what they talk about, (did you know that advertising has proven
that modern societies have a 10 second attention span?) I eventually reached
your posting which you say will upset me.

Shamefully I must admit to skipping through the main text, as I know from
previous posting your information has no relevance to my past, present, or
future work in gasification. As the last couple of paragraphs seem to offer
the suggestion of you having subjected my work to expert scrutiny and I
don't understand your statement "Is that your message".

As it is you Peter asking the question, clearly you haven't any idea of why
some of us have put other careers and employment opportunities aside to
develop the potential of WWII technology in all its forms.

In our case it meant developing a 30 year business plan, initiated by Jack
Humphries the original founder of Fluidyne (now retired but still active)
and seen out to its conclusion in about 2006 by myself.

In the 1970s, the oil price shocks, shortages etc. Resulted in a number of
studies being conducted that reviewed our future energy demands in the
Southern Hemisphere. The conclusion was, that our economies would require
more energy than we could afford, or obtain from fossil fuels.
Environmental concerns are now added to this equation and biomass is and
will continue to be a great renewable resource to meet some of that demand.

Without having even seen a gasifier we embarked on this venture without
government support, aid funding, business R & D loans, and certainly no
credibility with the pontificating consultants of that time. What we did
have though was the unselfish sharing of personal knowledge and experience,
from hundreds of people throughout every sector of business in New Zealand.
All their business cards are in the Fluidyne records, each one triggering
the memory of advice or tips which kept our failures to a minimum.

The files also contain hundred of letters from every corner of this planet,
detailing the situation and needs from an incredible diverse economic and
cultural base. Whilst it wasn't possible to meet the requirement of these
needs at the time due to lack of supporting technology (and client money),
their situations were all absorbed into thoughts as we struggled to develop
the systems appropriate for their needs.

By far the greatest number of generating sets throughout the world were
30kWe, a figure provided by Listers who's knowledge and experience set our
target market, which I might add we thought would be the easiest market.

Did you know that to sell a gasifier it takes between 12-18 months from the
first enquiry to money in the bank, and once sold you have to go and install
it, teach them to operate and service, co-ordinate fuel supplies, resource
management and a thousand other things?

Even the knowledge to compile such a list of training procedure is rare and
certainly valuable enough to be plagiarized for reports in far away places
that we were never supposed to visit.

In the course of implementing these small projects, environmental issues
have always been discussed with village men in New Guinea and Pacific
Islands such as Fiji, Samoa, Tonga, Cook Islands, and right up the spectrum
to the Presidents of Uruguay and Indonesia. Our environment is struggling.

Even though all these things concern everybody Peter, we have only been able
to concentrate and remain focussed on our prime objective. That is to
arrive in the year 2006 with a technology ready to go. If you don't follow
or understand what this means in real terms, then the following might help.

A: Reliable commercially manufactured gasifiers.
B: An appropriately developed range of equipment technologies to use the
gas.
C: A skilled workforce to implement a rapid programme of installation.
D: Creation of a new workforce to operate the gasified installations.
E: Then develop a way of doing all this by creating a business plan that
avoids the usual economic restraints.

With only five years to go, I can look back at the recorded programme of the
evolvement of Fluidyne's gasification technology. It is to this technology
that the new generation of engineers are adding their brilliance and other
than supervising their enthusiasm, I guess my job is complete.

Some people are actually interested in all this and for their benefit, my
son Graeme established the Fluidyne Archive which shows some of the things
we have done along the way. Have a look at http://fluidynenz.250x.com sorry
I may have written that too fast, here it is again slower
http://fluidynenz.250x.com Yes you guessed it, I'm computer illiterate and
I have to write all this stuff by hand, and my wife Dorothy types it all.

So Peter sorry to disappoint you, I haven't a message to give, only reports
of what I do !! Its not for your benefit that I post these accounts, but to
keep my friends throughout the world informed on progress.

On that note I'd better finish as the e-mail box is bulging waiting for
replies. If you keep contributing to this list, make sure you keep the
headings relevant to subject, as the Archive is supposed to be a repository
of information, for the research of gasification. It needs a good clean
out.

Doug Williams
Fluidyne Gasification.

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From neeft at ecn.nl Tue Jul 24 04:06:05 2001
From: neeft at ecn.nl (Neeft, John)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:31 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Tar Measurement Protocols
Message-ID: <92D6AAE888CED411A16A00508BB0B827342EF2@ecntex.ecn.nl>

Dear Claus, Thomas Reed and gasification,

I would like to comment on what Claus and Thomas wrote recently:

> I WOULD HOPE THAT WE WILL FIND A SIMPLER METHOD OF DAY TO DAY
> EASUREMENT FOR EACH APPLICATION, AND DEFINE "TAR" BY THE RESULTS
> OF THAT AGREED ON MEASUREMENT. THERE WOULD THEN BE
>
> TAR(IC, DIESEL) IN WHICH WE MEASURED THOSE TARS PARTICULARLY
> LIKELY TO TRASH AN ENGINE
>
> TAR(TURBINE) IN WHICH WE MEASURE THOSE TARS CAUSING TROUBLE FOR
TURBINES
>
> TAR (STIRLING) IN WHICH WE... ETC.
>
> TAR (FUELS CELL)...
>
> THESE ARE OF COURSE ALL STILL TO BE DEFINED.

This would indeed be very operational measures. This would make it
easy to
evaluate the suitability of a certain gas for different purposes.

The trouble is, that we have yet quite limited knowledge on which
components
actually trash e.g. IC engines, and which components are harmless.
If we can agree on definitions like those above today, we will have
to
continually updated the definitions.

What came first, the chicken or the egg?
What comes first, the definition of tar, or a tar measurement method?

Assessment of the trouble caused by tars to engines, turbines, and fuel
cells is an important task for the gasification community. As Claus writes
it is not a straightforward task, and we'll need time and clever
experimentation to find out which is the tar fraction or which are the
compounds causing the trouble. We could develop smart tests which measure
the actual damage (fouling, corrosion) and this will probably be done. But
is it smart to change the methods by which we measure the tar concentration
in our gases according to the assessment of damage? I think there are two
reasons why we should not do this.

In the first place, the inlet conditions of for example an engine can differ
from the inlet conditions of another engine so that we would need many tests
to perform this task. In fact, we might need a test for every new
installation we build when temperatures or pressures in the gas cleaning or
gas application are not identical to earlier-build installations. This might
in the end not apply for smaller (downdraft and/or updraft) gasifier systems
manufactured in larger amounts, but it will most likely apply for large
(fluidised bed) gasifier systems.

In the second place, the assessment of trouble is not the only reason why we
measure tars. Tars are measured for at least the following reasons:
1. to assess the trouble caused by tars in engines, turbines, fuel cells
etc.
2. to obtain a tar concentration and composition to make mass and heat
balances.
3. to quantify the performance of gasifiers and gas cleaning devices with
respect to tar formation and removal.

To my opinion it is wiser to measure tars in a standardised way or in a
number of ways which can in some way be compared, and then find out how the
measured data relate to the trouble caused. This can both be done on the
basis of individual compounds and on the basis of condensation methods.
Examples are statements like:
* "at 40°C gas engine inlet temperature, 4-ring and larger compounds
cause trouble in a reciprocal engine, 3-ring compounds cause trouble at
concentrations larger than 10 mg/m3 and 2-ring compounds cause trouble at
concentrations larger than 500 mg/m3";
* "> 50 mg/m3 of tars causes problems in a reciprocal engine at 40°C gas
engine inlet temperature".
In the latter case, the tar definition or measurement method should be
mentioned.

For the assessment of trouble based on individual compounds, vapour pressure
data can be used. These data are scarce and the available data scatter. We
(at ECN) have started working with these data. If there are others in the
field I'd like to hear from you.

Some words on the actual tar measurement methods. Many methods exist and it
is realistic to say that one standard method or Guideline will not easily
change this situation. However, as data from all the many methods are
difficult to compare the Guideline could provide in one "reference method"
to compare the results of the several methods. These results can both be
concentrations of individual compounds or a condensed fraction (or
"gravimetrical tar" as we call it in the Guideline).

The partners in the EU project "Tar Protocol" are committed that we can
compare tar data in the future. In practice this will not mean that we'll
all measure with the same method, it will mean that we know which fraction
of the tars is measured by a method and that we can revert to a reference
method if sound and standardised tar data are needed by ourselves or if a
customer asks for such data.
In practice, I foresee that for gasification research on small gasifiers,
relatively simple methods will be used. It will be worthwhile to know how
these compare with the other methods, therefore, the suggestion would be to
make a comparison. For research and actual field tests on larger gasifiers,
the Guideline will be an important tar measurement method.

Finally I would like to announce that on this subject a Workshop will be
organised in Amsterdam in January or February 2002. Details will follow.

Best regards,

John Neeft
ECN - Energy research Centre of the Netherlands

Project coordinator of EU project "Tar Protocol"
Web site www.tarweb.net

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From jerry5335 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 24 07:13:23 2001
From: jerry5335 at yahoo.com (jerry dycus)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:31 2004
Subject: GAS-L: wood gas combustion
In-Reply-To: <01C11444.6B0F6FF0.markus@asco.co.nz>
Message-ID: <20010724111048.83538.qmail@web14004.mail.yahoo.com>

Hi Markus and All,

--- Markus Benter-Lynch <markus@asco.co.nz> wrote:
> Hi everyone,
>
> I am after an explanation for a phenomenon which I
> have observed during the
> direct combustion of gases from batch gasification
> of wood (the gases
> released after gasification are burned in an
> adjacent combustion chamber
> immediately):
>
> It appears that the "gases" released during the
> start of the batch
> gasification process burn in a much more stable
> fashion than the ones
> released later. Is this because they are released in
> a more continuous
> fashion than the gases released towards the end of
> the gasification
> process, when the wood in the gasifier has nearly
> been carbonised? The
> gasification process is a fixed bed, cross draft
> type.
The gases that are most easily distilled go first
then the ones that come from chemical changes go next.
One way to increase the energy quality is to
introduce steam made by the heat output of the
gasifier.
This steam using the heat of the burning section
changes the leftover carbon changes into H2 and CO if
you don't put in too much dousing the burn zone.
I wouldn't use a producer gasifer without doing
this.
An easy way to do it is just make a tube coil in
the gasifer flue and feed it with a drip system to
control the rate of steam and introduce the steam into
the burn zone.
Another way to increase the gas quality is to
preheat the combustion air from the output gas heat so
less air is needed for combustion reducing the N2 and
CO2 in the output gas. Insulating the chamber helps
too.
Hope this helps,
jerry dycus
>
> Any leads would be much appreciated!
>
> Thanks and regards
> Markus Benter-Lynch
>
>
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From claush at et.dtu.dk Tue Jul 24 08:13:24 2001
From: claush at et.dtu.dk (Claus Hindsgaul)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:31 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Tar Measurement Protocols
In-Reply-To: <92D6AAE888CED411A16A00508BB0B827342EF2@ecntex.ecn.nl>
Message-ID: <200107241418283.SM00788@there>

tirsdag den 24. juli 2001 10:03 skrev Neeft, John:
> compounds causing the trouble. We could develop smart tests which measure
> the actual damage (fouling, corrosion) and this will probably be done. But
> is it smart to change the methods by which we measure the tar concentration
> in our gases according to the assessment of damage? I think there are two
> reasons why we should not do this.

In a perfect world, we will know enough about each specific tar specie to
estimate its harmfullness to each given end conversion technology.

As John Neeft indicate, very detailed information on each specie is nessecary
in order to acheave this. I agree that it is highly desirable to aproach this
perfect world by obtaining valuable information on single tar species e.g.
determining wapor pressures, as ECN is doing.
As I mentioned ealier on this list, Jesper Ahrenfelt at DTU is currently
doing measurements of tar coatings in real IC engines injecting single tar
components in otherwise totally tar free fuel gas. This should also add to
the knowledge needed in the "perfect world".

With the present knowledge, it is not enough to know, exactly which compounds
are present in which quantities [to evaluate suitability for a certain end
conversion]. This is also, what makes it so hard for us to obtain guaranties
from e.g. engine makers.
We currently lack the knowledge needed to translate "0.4 mg phenol per Nm3,
..." to "Wears out a model xx IC engine in 24 months and a model yy gas
turbine in 36 months".

Hopefully, ongoing research will soon make it possible to evaluate the
harmfullness a tar-"mixture" for a given purpose just by knowing its contents.
Until then I believe we need a way to evaluate these effects more directly
using the gas, possibly working out different measurements for each
conversion technique (e.g. engine model xx).

Also, John is certainly right that one single method can be used for all
purposes. My comments have concentrated on the suitability for end conversion
(e.g. engines, boilers), not on working out mass balances, where it is
certainly essential to do quantitative measurements of the species.

While we wait for our promising egg to mature
we have to use the best available hen.
But let us nurse the egg well.

Claus Hindsgaul

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From claush at et.dtu.dk Tue Jul 24 08:25:05 2001
From: claush at et.dtu.dk (Claus Hindsgaul)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:31 2004
Subject: GAS-L: wood gas combustion
In-Reply-To: <01C11444.6B0F6FF0.markus@asco.co.nz>
Message-ID: <200107241428730.SM00848@there>

tirsdag den 24. juli 2001 03:27 skrev Markus Benter-Lynch:
> It appears that the "gases" released during the start of the batch
> gasification process burn in a much more stable fashion than the ones
> released later. Is this because they are released in a more continuous

In a batch process, the first process that will happen is the "pyrolysis".
Volatiles will escape and other tars will form as the wood turn into char.
You will thus have a very high amount of tars in your gas. As the heating
value of the tars are high (some name tar "bio oil"), your flame is very
stable.
After the pyrolysis, you will have the actual "gasification" of the char.
Ideally, no tars are produced, so your flame recieve less energy.

The two stage gasification technology at DTU separate these two steps in
different reactors with a high temperature tar cracking zone in between.
Other processes aim at separating it into different zones in the same chamber.

Sincerely,

Claus Hindsgaul

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From markus at asco.co.nz Tue Jul 24 15:44:02 2001
From: markus at asco.co.nz (Markus Benter-Lynch)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:31 2004
Subject: GAS-L: wood gas combustion
Message-ID: <01C114DD.692B5520.markus@asco.co.nz>

Thank you to those who have responded to my question! I did appreciate that
different gases are released over the course of the batch gasification. Why
is the flame more stable for the early, higher heating value ones though?
As I can adapt/reduce the amount of combustion air (secondary air) to burn
the gases released later (in a separate, secondary chamber), I would still
expect a stable flame/gas release!?

Any comments?
Thanks again
Markus Benter-Lynch

-----Original Message-----
From: Claus Hindsgaul [SMTP:claush@et.dtu.dk]
Sent: Wednesday, 25 July 2001 12:23 a.m.
To: Gasification List at Crest (E-mail)
Subject: Re: GAS-L: wood gas combustion

Sincerely,

Claus Hindsgaul

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From graeme at powerlink.co.nz Mon Jul 30 20:03:41 2001
From: graeme at powerlink.co.nz (Graeme Williams)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:31 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Fw: Tar Measurement Protocols
Message-ID: <000b01c11953$da0f4ba0$4f0f37d2@graeme>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Graeme Williams" <graeme@powerlink.co.nz>
To: <tombreed@home.com>; <neeft@ecn.nl>
Sent: Saturday, 28 July 2001 9:01 am
Subject: Tar Measurement Protocols

> Dear Tom and John
>
> I'd like to contribute to this debate on the measurement of tar in
producer
> gas.
>
> From the time we became involved in gasification back in the 70s, down
here
> in New Zealand, our isolation from the centres responsible for evolving
tar
> measurement and the lack of measuring equipment required us to adopt a
> practical approach to this issue.
>
> As the only reason to measure tar levels is to determine its acceptability
> for use in engines, turbines, compressors, etc. the first question to ask
> is "can this gas do the job", not "how much and what sort of tar is in the
> gas". Even the smallest amounts of condensible hydro carbons cause
problems
> in a commercial application, and I haven't found an answer to my question
of
> how much measurable hydrocarbons exist when they no longer condense in the
> high vacuum of the engine manifolds.
>
> Rather than waste money measuring a gas too dirty in the first place, a
> simple screen test can be applied, that will justify any further tests.
>
> There are several options actually depending on your situation.
>
> A: Gas analysis to determine CH4; a distillation gas which almost
disappears
> if thermal cracking is efficient. Over 3% and light pyrolisis oils and
> heavier hydrocarbons begin to condense in various places.
>
> B: Using a preferably cold gas stream, (-65 degrees C) pass it through a
> Watman 5 filter paper. There should be condensate present that wets the
> paper. If just clear when dry O.K., but if brown stain appears,
condensable
> hydrocarbon present. Reject!
>
> C: The filter paper is also useful to collect particle samples that can be
> classified if a high resolution or even better an electron microscope if
> available. Engine quality gas has carbon black present, and although we
> haven't had need to explore the possibility, believe them to include C60
and
> C70 carbons. Their size will take them through any collector if moisture
is
> present in the gas.
>
> D: A test flame of engine quality gas has little radiant heat although
there
> is a small amount from the carbon blacks. Flame temperatures are usually
> around 1,050 0C with 1,100 OC the absolute maximum temperature.
>
> E: Failing all else, use a small single cylinder engine and see if tar
forms
> in its manifold.
>
> While this whole issue of tar measurement tries to establish what is
> acceptable, the onus is on gasifier manufacturers to deliver appropriate
> equipment and prove what is possible.
>
> It is possible to make producer gas without condensable hydrocarbons, and
> the term low tar gas cannot be applied to these systems if you have no
> condensate to measure. Having said this, I should mention water. In the
> absence of hydrocarbons it will be slightly mauve or clear, contain
> particles that settle out, and be about pH 8.2.
>
> So to sum this all up, nothing should condense out of the gas other than
> water and carbon particles in a vacuum situation similar to an engine
> manifold. This should be the type of test to develop with zero acceptance
> in the presence of hydrocarbon condensate. If we don't allow gas with
these
> distillations into an engine or turbine, we don't have to figure out which
> or what is causing the problems. We must aim for a zero standard as I am
> sure that our technology will not reach the degree of reliability demanded
> of commercial technologies without this incentive in place.
>
> The screen test method was evolved with the assistance of Dr Jim Cousins,
> New Zealand's top scientist in gasification and biomass, who worked in
our
> old DSIR laboratory in Wellington. It was the only method available and
we
> resolved our design problems of condensable hydrocarbons.
>
> I did see a mention of Benzine in the gas and yes this is another
indication
> that the gasifier is not cracking the distillation gases. You should only
> have CO and H2 with traces (maybe) of CH4 with the rest being inert.
>
> Our newest project in Canada has just taken delivery of the gas and
emission
> equipment for the EPA testing programme. It is all state of the art stuff
> and we will settle once and for all whether down draught gasifiers can be
no
> tar at the same time!
>
> Graeme has put up a carbon black photo on the Fluidyne Archive and the
> simple holder for the filter paper. I found some of the original test
> filters which came out of my International van during the time of
developing
> granular bed filters. You can see the colour of the paper.
>
> http://www.fluidynenz.250x.com/carbonblack.htm
>
> Hope this may be of interest, and don't hesitate to ask if its not clear.
>
> Regards
>
> Doug Williams.
>
>
>
>

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From graeme at powerlink.co.nz Tue Jul 31 00:14:20 2001
From: graeme at powerlink.co.nz (Graeme Williams)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:31 2004
Subject: Fluidyne Report Germany
Message-ID: <001701c11976$d8a7de80$280f37d2@graeme>

Fluidyne Report Germany

Fluidyne became involved with gasification in Germany as the result of being
awarded a contract to supervise a gasification research team at the
University of Bremen in 1989.

After the "Wall" came down, a small east German company Multifunktionelle
Heisung-und Bausysteme GmbH (MHB) purchased one of our Pacific Class
Gasifiers for a new demonstration and training centre for renewable energies
in Furstenwalde 80 km from Berlin. This was opened at Easter 1995 and
continues to function as a working CHP system while providing training to
various groups. The managing director of MHB is Horst Scholz who works
with my German representative Wilfried Richter, whom I have known since the
Bremen project. They are now our International Alliancej company in
Germany.

The Mega Class gasifier project had its origins in Germany where it was
first shown at the 1995 Klema Conference at the Berlin Trade Fair, as a
community power station concept. Because of the huge interest shown , MHB
decided to mount a project too develop the supporting technologies, but due
to lack of finance, we had to scrap the idea of evolving the technology in
Germany.

For East German companies who had to start from scratch, the difficulty of
dealing with the West German Bureaucracy makes doing anything twice as long
as companies in the West. To overcome at least some of the problems of
technology transfer, the New Zealand government funded one of my visits
under the New Zealand Technological Co-operation agreement with Germany.
This trip provided the opportunity to establish links with Mr Eberhard Oetel
who translated my address to the "Society for the Promotion of Renewable
Energies" and Professor U. Hellwig of Technische Fachhochschule Wildau.
Professor Hellwig has maintained along interest in gasification and his
technical institute was given the small steel gasifier and engine I built
for the Bremen University project. Close links are continued between him
and MHB and it is planned to try to establish our operator training facility
at Wildau Institute based on the same format established in Canada.
Problem No. 1
Our technology transfer with Germany continues to be difficult however with
autocratic public servants creating unacceptable delays. Because no
emission data exists within German regulations for new gasification
projects, they consider it to relate to incineration emissions and will not
release a permit of operation.
Problem No. 2
Then we have another official who cannot tell a machine from a building and
insists its a structure therefore comes under building structural codes.
His demand for engineering data already contained within the originally
presented documentation suggests nothing less than a harassment of a small
East German company. If this nonsense continues, I will have to seek
intervention of our N.Z. Government Trade Commissioner in Germany to request
these officials stop interfering with an officially registered technology
transfer.

Despite these expensive delays, MHB remains optimistic that they can
eventually assemble the components to get a test Mega Class gasifier
together. However it would seem to be easier to get permission in West
Germany reinforcing my suspicion of intentional harassment with attitudes
left over from a divided Germany.

I'll give it another three months onto the already five years invested in
this project before we pull the plug and take the project to another country
in the E.U.

Up to this point in time MHB have chosen to pursue Cogen using conventional
gas engine technology. This may change once the larger systems come on line
in favour of steam for the smaller plants and gas turbines for the bigger
city projects.

Whilst it is expected that MHB will draw on the technology available to the
other alliance partners, there should be opportunity for other equipment
suppliers to join the activity, but they do have to fund their own programme
to develop appropriate equipment.

Very much success of our implementation programme is reliant on the success
of other ancillary technology, which in many cases is just waiting for a
supply of tar free producer gas. The first Canadian built Mega Class
gasifier should be in Germany early 2002.

Comment
I find it difficult to comprehend why non existent regulations are imposed
on our projects, requesting data that clearly doesn't exist until a project
is certified. Surely when a government policy includes renewables in their
energy plan, many regulations can be set aside, with acceptance of the
manufacturers expertise as proof of concept. If an automatic waver
applied to these projects, local officials could then just do site
inspections to ensure normal safety or structural standards were being
observed.

Its not in anyone's interest to try and con official scrutiny of our
technology or the safety of the emissions, but we must have the right to
build and test our equipment in a less hostile regulatory environment.

Doug Williams
Fluidyne Gasification.

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From arnt at c2i.net Tue Jul 31 07:00:27 2001
From: arnt at c2i.net (Arnt Karlsen)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:32 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Fluidyne Report Germany
Message-ID: <3B66896D.BE74701E@c2i.net>

On Tue, 31 Jul 2001 16:11:06 +1200, "Graeme Williams"
<graeme@powerlink.co.nz> wrote in
<001701c11976$d8a7de80$280f37d2@graeme>:
>
> Comment
> I find it difficult to comprehend why non existent regulations are imposed
> on our projects, requesting data that clearly doesn't exist until a project
> is certified. Surely when a government policy includes renewables in their
> energy plan, many regulations can be set aside, with acceptance of the
> manufacturers expertise as proof of concept. If an automatic waver
> applied to these projects, local officials could then just do site
> inspections to ensure normal safety or structural standards were being
> observed.

..welcome to The Cotton Wall[Tm].

> Its not in anyone's interest to try and con official scrutiny of our
> technology or the safety of the emissions, but we must have the right to
> build and test our equipment in a less hostile regulatory environment.

..the idea is you're supposed to waste _all_ of your money
finding out how soft the cotton is. You either do that,
or develop guerilla style showing results first, _then_
get the papers "in ordnung", or go somewhere where you are
_welcome_ to develop technology.

..speaking of which, where can I go?

--
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;-)

Scenarios always come in sets of three:
best case, worst case, and just in case.

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From snkm at btl.net Tue Jul 31 10:31:55 2001
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:32 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Fw: Tar Measurement Protocols
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20010731082641.0095d9b0@wgs1.btl.net>

At 12:00 PM 7/31/2001 +1200, you wrote:
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Graeme Williams" <graeme@powerlink.co.nz>
>To: <tombreed@home.com>; <neeft@ecn.nl>
>Sent: Saturday, 28 July 2001 9:01 am
>Subject: Tar Measurement Protocols
>
>
>> Dear Tom and John
>>
>> I'd like to contribute to this debate on the measurement of tar in
>producer
>> gas.

Dear Doug;

regarding:

> So to sum this all up, nothing should condense out of the gas other than
> water and carbon particles in a vacuum situation similar to an engine
> manifold.

Does this mean a super or turbo charged engine can avoid condensing tar
problems better than a naturally aspirated one?

As in -- no vacuum situation in the manifold --

Also -- using variable valve timing to "govern" an engine rather than
butter-fly valving the intake manifold. Then always having boost pressure
in the intake manifold.

Also -- how hot can one run an intake manifold? Quite hot with proper
design I would think.

I can see that tars are not going to be condensing at the exhaust valve!

How about designing an IC engine to burn dirty gas -- loaded with tars??

A two stroke -- forced, hot, induction -- hey what can the tars do then??

Also -- I can replace piston rings with a special design. I can even use
tars -- should any condense out -- as lubrication.

Maybe I'll build such -- easy enough to do ---

I'll ship it to you -- and you can try to destroy it running dirty gas.

I see 4 HP Chinese diesels selling for $500 US. Good test station?
Certainly a lot less expensive than the test procedures described to date.

Peter Singfield / Belize

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From thomas at biopilze.de Tue Jul 31 12:02:15 2001
From: thomas at biopilze.de (Thomas Ziegler)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:32 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Fluidyne Report Germany
In-Reply-To: <3B66896D.BE74701E@c2i.net>
Message-ID: <3B66D58E.687C0548@biopilze.de>

as answer to graeme and arnt:
as a german (once an official, too in env.agency concerned with
soil/water/air pollutions in bavaria...) i suggest (for sure best would
be to have nothing to do with them... and there is a saying: those who
ask a lot get many answers...) try to get their ministeries involved to
get them tamed...sure this is enoying and time-cosuming... sorry for our
country as they are so stupid... and although: please be patient with
them: -later they will be happy to have it... that is for sure, too!

just a final impulse: to help to propagate gasification it would help a
lot to get more specific data on the web !!for free!! -the more people
who know details and that it works the easier it is finally to get
acceptation... just my opinion, thomas
--
der kleine deutsche oeko-pilz-anbauer \
the small german organic mushroomer http://www.biopilze.de/wir.htm
le petit eco - champignoneur allemand /

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Tom Reed, Biomass Energy Foundation, Reedtb2@cs.com
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From Gavin at roseplac.worldonline.co.uk Tue Jul 31 14:08:22 2001
From: Gavin at roseplac.worldonline.co.uk (Gavin Gulliver-Goodall)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:32 2004
Subject: GAS-L: RE: : Tar Measurement Protocols (sidetracked)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20010731082641.0095d9b0@wgs1.btl.net>
Message-ID: <MABBJLGAAFJBOBCKKPMGOECFCDAA.Gavin@roseplac.worldonline.co.uk>

Oops peter,
A turbo will get just as stuck with tar as the rest of the engine,
And , by simple inference the vacuum at the turbo inlet will be the same or
greater than that at the (normally aspirated) inlet for the same engine
size, rpm and output.
If you intend to inject the gas into the manifold after the turbo, how are
you to pressureise the gas? Etc.
I think you have jumped the gun again!!
Best regards,
I enjoy your contributions but agree they should be correctly titiled to
avoid confusioin

Gavin

-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Singfield [mailto:snkm@btl.net]
Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2001 14:27
To: gasification@crest.org
Subject: Re: GAS-L: Fw: Tar Measurement Protocols

Dear Doug;

regarding:

> So to sum this all up, nothing should condense out of the gas other than
> water and carbon particles in a vacuum situation similar to an engine
> manifold.

Does this mean a super or turbo charged engine can avoid condensing tar
problems better than a naturally aspirated one?

As in -- no vacuum situation in the manifold --

Also -- using variable valve timing to "govern" an engine rather than
butter-fly valving the intake manifold. Then always having boost pressure
in the intake manifold.

Also -- how hot can one run an intake manifold? Quite hot with proper
design I would think.

I can see that tars are not going to be condensing at the exhaust valve!

How about designing an IC engine to burn dirty gas -- loaded with tars??

A two stroke -- forced, hot, induction -- hey what can the tars do then??

Also -- I can replace piston rings with a special design. I can even use
tars -- should any condense out -- as lubrication.

Maybe I'll build such -- easy enough to do ---

I'll ship it to you -- and you can try to destroy it running dirty gas.

I see 4 HP Chinese diesels selling for $500 US. Good test station?
Certainly a lot less expensive than the test procedures described to date.

Peter Singfield / Belize

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Gasification List Moderator:
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Gasification List Archives:
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www.webpan.com/BEF

BioEnergy Lists: Gasifiers & Gasification

July 2001 Gasification Archive