May 2001 Gasification Archive

From Auke.Koopmans at fao.org Tue May 1 21:14:21 2001
From: Auke.Koopmans at fao.org (Koopmans, Auke (FAORAP))
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:19 2004
Subject: GAS-L: FW: gasification
Message-ID: <3F078B30BD9FD21190830090273A70A901DD49E4@RAPEXCH1>

Anyone out there who will be able to provide some assistance?

Thanks and best regards,

Auke Koopmans
Chief Technical Advisor and Wood Energy Conservation Specialist
FAO-RWEDP, Maliwan Mansion, 39 Phra Atit Road
Bangkok 10200, THAILAND
Tel. +66-2-280 2760
Fax +66-2-280 0760
Website http://www.rwedp.org
Email rwedp@fao.org or auke.koopmans@fao.org

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sandy Caldwell [SMTP:rvccow@megalink.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2001 3:55 AM
> To: webmaster@rwedp.org
> Subject: gasification
>
> How do I incorporate a gasification unit into my 1,000,000.btu wood fired
> boiler? How do I build this unit? Any information or acess to information
> that you can pass along to me, I would appreciate. Thank You. Ralph
> Caldwell

-
Gasification List Archives:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/gasification/current/

Gasification List Moderator:
Tom Reed, Biomass Energy Foundation, Reedtb2@cs.com
www.webpan.com/BEF

From kchishol at fox.nstn.ca Wed May 2 07:56:27 2001
From: kchishol at fox.nstn.ca (Kevin Chisholm)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:19 2004
Subject: GAS-L: FW: gasification
In-Reply-To: <3F078B30BD9FD21190830090273A70A901DD49E4@RAPEXCH1>
Message-ID: <NEBBLHHHOLFOEGCILKHEGECGCLAA.kchishol@fox.nstn.ca>

Dear Auke and Ralph

What is the problem with the present fueling system such that you would
consider going to the expense of converting it to a gasification system?

Kevin Chisholm

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Koopmans, Auke (FAORAP) [mailto:Auke.Koopmans@fao.org]
> Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 10:09 PM
> To: gasification@crest.org
> Cc: 'rvccow@megalink.net'
> Subject: GAS-L: FW: gasification
>
>
> Anyone out there who will be able to provide some assistance?
>
> Thanks and best regards,
>
> Auke Koopmans
> Chief Technical Advisor and Wood Energy Conservation Specialist
> FAO-RWEDP, Maliwan Mansion, 39 Phra Atit Road
> Bangkok 10200, THAILAND
> Tel. +66-2-280 2760
> Fax +66-2-280 0760
> Website http://www.rwedp.org
> Email rwedp@fao.org or auke.koopmans@fao.org
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Sandy Caldwell [SMTP:rvccow@megalink.net]
> > Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2001 3:55 AM
> > To: webmaster@rwedp.org
> > Subject: gasification
> >
> > How do I incorporate a gasification unit into my 1,000,000.btu
> wood fired
> > boiler? How do I build this unit? Any information or acess to
> information
> > that you can pass along to me, I would appreciate. Thank You. Ralph
> > Caldwell
>
> -
> Gasification List Archives:
> http://www.crest.org/discussion/gasification/current/
>
> Gasification List Moderator:
> Tom Reed, Biomass Energy Foundation, Reedtb2@cs.com
> www.webpan.com/BEF
>
> Sponsor the Gasification List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html
> -
> Other Gasification Events and Information:
> http://www.fsec.ucf.edu/bioam/
> http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml
> http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
>
>
>
>

-
Gasification List Archives:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/gasification/current/

Gasification List Moderator:
Tom Reed, Biomass Energy Foundation, Reedtb2@cs.com
www.webpan.com/BEF

From chiptec at together.net Wed May 2 08:06:50 2001
From: chiptec at together.net (Brad Noviski)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:19 2004
Subject: GAS-L: FW: gasification
In-Reply-To: <NEBBLHHHOLFOEGCILKHEGECGCLAA.kchishol@fox.nstn.ca>
Message-ID: <NEBBJHCCELHCMPEBPEHEMEDKCBAA.chiptec@together.net>

Dear Ralph

My company manufactures gasifier that can couple directly to your wood fired
boiler. If you would like more information, check out our web site,
www.chiptec.com. We may be able to help you out. We have successfully
retrofitted many wood fired boiler that were hand fed or had emission issues
that needed to be dealt with.

Brad Noviski
Chiptec Wood Energy Systems
48 Helen Ave
So. Burlington VT 05403
1-802-658-0956
Chiptec@together.net
www.chiptec.com
<mailto:Chiptec@together.net>

-----Original Message-----
From: Kevin Chisholm [mailto:kchishol@fox.nstn.ca]
Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2001 7:59 AM
To: Koopmans, Auke (FAORAP); gasification@crest.org
Cc: rvccow@megalink.net
Subject: RE: GAS-L: FW: gasification

Dear Auke and Ralph

What is the problem with the present fueling system such that you would
consider going to the expense of converting it to a gasification system?

Kevin Chisholm

-
Gasification List Archives:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/gasification/current/

Gasification List Moderator:
Tom Reed, Biomass Energy Foundation, Reedtb2@cs.com
www.webpan.com/BEF

-
Gasification List Archives:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/gasification/current/

Gasification List Moderator:
Tom Reed, Biomass Energy Foundation, Reedtb2@cs.com
www.webpan.com/BEF

From tk at tke.dk Wed May 2 08:09:05 2001
From: tk at tke.dk (Thomas Koch)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:19 2004
Subject: Sv: GAS-L: FW: gasification
In-Reply-To: <NEBBLHHHOLFOEGCILKHEGECGCLAA.kchishol@fox.nstn.ca>
Message-ID: <007a01c0d300$a4a7e060$048744c0@image.dk>

One of the usual problems when converting combustion technology into gasification technology is that gasification technology has to be gastight.

Eg. feeding a gasifier is much more complicated than feeding a combustion unit.

But first, why do you want to gasify ?
Do you want operate an engine or a turbine?

Thomas Koch

----- Oprindelig meddelelse -----
Fra: "Kevin Chisholm" <kchishol@fox.nstn.ca>
Til: "Koopmans, Auke (FAORAP)" <Auke.Koopmans@fao.org>; <gasification@crest.org>
Cc: <rvccow@megalink.net>
Sendt: 2. maj 2001 13:59
Emne: RE: GAS-L: FW: gasification

> Dear Auke and Ralph
>
> What is the problem with the present fueling system such that you would
> consider going to the expense of converting it to a gasification system?
>
> Kevin Chisholm
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Koopmans, Auke (FAORAP) [mailto:Auke.Koopmans@fao.org]
> > Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 10:09 PM
> > To: gasification@crest.org
> > Cc: 'rvccow@megalink.net'
> > Subject: GAS-L: FW: gasification
> >
> >
> > Anyone out there who will be able to provide some assistance?
> >
> > Thanks and best regards,
> >
> > Auke Koopmans
> > Chief Technical Advisor and Wood Energy Conservation Specialist
> > FAO-RWEDP, Maliwan Mansion, 39 Phra Atit Road
> > Bangkok 10200, THAILAND
> > Tel. +66-2-280 2760
> > Fax +66-2-280 0760
> > Website http://www.rwedp.org
> > Email rwedp@fao.org or auke.koopmans@fao.org
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Sandy Caldwell [SMTP:rvccow@megalink.net]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2001 3:55 AM
> > > To: webmaster@rwedp.org
> > > Subject: gasification
> > >
> > > How do I incorporate a gasification unit into my 1,000,000.btu
> > wood fired
> > > boiler? How do I build this unit? Any information or acess to
> > information
> > > that you can pass along to me, I would appreciate. Thank You. Ralph
> > > Caldwell
> >
> > -
> > Gasification List Archives:
> > http://www.crest.org/discussion/gasification/current/
> >
> > Gasification List Moderator:
> > Tom Reed, Biomass Energy Foundation, Reedtb2@cs.com
> > www.webpan.com/BEF
> >
> > Sponsor the Gasification List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html
> > -
> > Other Gasification Events and Information:
> > http://www.fsec.ucf.edu/bioam/
> > http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml
> > http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> -
> Gasification List Archives:
> http://www.crest.org/discussion/gasification/current/
>
> Gasification List Moderator:
> Tom Reed, Biomass Energy Foundation, Reedtb2@cs.com
> www.webpan.com/BEF
>
> Sponsor the Gasification List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html
> -
> Other Gasification Events and Information:
> http://www.fsec.ucf.edu/bioam/
> http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml
> http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
>
>

-
Gasification List Archives:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/gasification/current/

Gasification List Moderator:
Tom Reed, Biomass Energy Foundation, Reedtb2@cs.com
www.webpan.com/BEF

From s9610030 at studict.student.utwente.nl Wed May 2 16:03:16 2001
From: s9610030 at studict.student.utwente.nl (s9610030@studict.student.utwente.nl)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:19 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Use of producer gas in microturbines
Message-ID: <988833355.3af0664be41cf@ict-test4.student.utwente.nl>

Dear all,

As a student Thermal Engineering at the university of Twente (Holland), I am
now performing my traineeship at IEE (Instituto de Eletrotecnica e Energia) of
the University of Sao Paulo with prof. Jose Goldemberg as my professor in
charge.

My assigment is to analyse the possibilities of using producer gas in
microturbines where the institute has a special interest in. Can somebody help
me with information about this topic. The occuring problems with components
like Na, K, tar, ash, NH3, Cl etc., their content in producer gas, cleaning
methods, current status of different projects, microturbine specifications,
companies/institutes performing research on this topic; all very welcome. I
hope somebody can help me with this.

Greetings,

Mark Landman
IEE, University of Sao Paulo

-
Gasification List Archives:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/gasification/current/

Gasification List Moderator:
Tom Reed, Biomass Energy Foundation, Reedtb2@cs.com
www.webpan.com/BEF

From LINVENT at aol.com Thu May 3 17:52:25 2001
From: LINVENT at aol.com (LINVENT@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:19 2004
Subject: GAS-L: FW: gasification
Message-ID: <aa.14dd84db.28232ccb@aol.com>

Dear gasification list:
Several weeks ago there was a reference to running a diesel engine on
ethanol mixed with vegetable oil. Is there experience with this? Is there a
timing, power derating, operating changes in the engine when this is done?

Sincerely,
Leland T. Taylor
President
Thermogenics Inc.
7100-2nd St. NW, Albuquerque, New Mexico 87107
phone 505-344-4846 fax 505-344-6090
Attached files are zipped and can be decompressed with <A
HREF="http://www.aladdinsys.com/expander/">www.aladdinsys.com/expander/ </A>

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Gasification List Archives:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/gasification/current/

Gasification List Moderator:
Tom Reed, Biomass Energy Foundation, Reedtb2@cs.com
www.webpan.com/BEF

From gary at privacy.nu Thu May 3 18:24:09 2001
From: gary at privacy.nu (gary)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:19 2004
Subject: GAS-L: FW: gasification
In-Reply-To: <aa.14dd84db.28232ccb@aol.com>
Message-ID: <003b01c0d41f$6ef07160$310a0341@mdlnd1.tx.home.com>

that reference came out of:
The Manual for the Home and Farm Production of
Alcohol Fuel", by S.W. Mathewson. the full text is online at
the Journey to Forever Biofuels Library:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library.html
It is in chapter 3, however there isn't much detail given specifically
pertaining to use in the diesel. but perhaps you may be able to locate the
author to get more details. i can greatly recommend reading the book if
you're intrested in alcohol fuels.

gary

----- Original Message -----
From: <LINVENT@aol.com>
To: <kchishol@fox.nstn.ca>; <Auke.Koopmans@fao.org>;
<gasification@crest.org>
Cc: <rvccow@megalink.net>
Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2001 4:51 PM
Subject: Re: GAS-L: FW: gasification

> Dear gasification list:
> Several weeks ago there was a reference to running a diesel engine on
> ethanol mixed with vegetable oil. Is there experience with this? Is there
a
> timing, power derating, operating changes in the engine when this is done?
>
>
>
> Sincerely,
> Leland T. Taylor
> President
> Thermogenics Inc.
> 7100-2nd St. NW, Albuquerque, New Mexico 87107
> phone 505-344-4846 fax 505-344-6090
> Attached files are zipped and can be decompressed with <A
> HREF="http://www.aladdinsys.com/expander/">www.aladdinsys.com/expander/
</A>
>
> -
> Gasification List Archives:
> http://www.crest.org/discussion/gasification/current/
>
> Gasification List Moderator:
> Tom Reed, Biomass Energy Foundation, Reedtb2@cs.com
> www.webpan.com/BEF
>
> Sponsor the Gasification List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html
> -
> Other Gasification Events and Information:
> http://www.fsec.ucf.edu/bioam/
> http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml
> http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
>
>

-
Gasification List Archives:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/gasification/current/

Gasification List Moderator:
Tom Reed, Biomass Energy Foundation, Reedtb2@cs.com
www.webpan.com/BEF

From pbadger at bioenergyupdate.com Thu May 3 20:19:42 2001
From: pbadger at bioenergyupdate.com (Phillip Badger)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:19 2004
Subject: GAS-L: FW: gasification
In-Reply-To: <003b01c0d41f$6ef07160$310a0341@mdlnd1.tx.home.com>
Message-ID: <LPBBJDFBEGGGIKFOEBKDKEKDCCAA.pbadger@bioenergyupdate.com>

E-Diesel is now commercial. I am traveling and don't have the contact
information with me. If someone does not respond before I get back, I will
post the contact info for you.

Phillip C. Badger,
General Bioenergy, Inc.
P.O. Box 26
Florence, AL 35630
Phone 2560740-5634
Fax 256-740-5530
email pbadger@bioenergyupdate.com

-----Original Message-----
From: gary [mailto:gary@privacy.nu]
Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2001 5:22 PM
To: LINVENT@aol.com; gasification@crest.org
Subject: Re: GAS-L: FW: gasification

gary

-
Gasification List Archives:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/gasification/current/

Gasification List Moderator:
Tom Reed, Biomass Energy Foundation, Reedtb2@cs.com
www.webpan.com/BEF

-
Gasification List Archives:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/gasification/current/

Gasification List Moderator:
Tom Reed, Biomass Energy Foundation, Reedtb2@cs.com
www.webpan.com/BEF

From thomas at biopilze.de Fri May 4 06:43:10 2001
From: thomas at biopilze.de (Thomas Ziegler)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:19 2004
Subject: GAS-L: FW: gasification
In-Reply-To: <aa.14dd84db.28232ccb@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3AF286FF.DE7B9E18@biopilze.de>

>...reference...running a diesel...on ethanol mixed with vegetable oil..
you could use as well pure!! vegetable oil, -the supplementation of
ethanol helps (a bit) when it is colder to keep the oil liquid enough
(especially when using modern direct-injection-motors or injection-pumps
OTHERS then from BOSCH (eg those from CAV/ LUCAS... -the latter "tend to
die like flies..."), use broader diameteres of tubes and preheat the
oil, eventually the injection-nozzles, too to get a smoke-free start...

works great!!, am driving my car on used BURGER-KING veggie-oil (from
french fries/ pommes frites), is just prefiltered to 5 ym and filled
in...

thomas

--
der kleine deutsche oeko-pilz-anbauer \
the small german organic mushroomer http://www.biopilze.de/wir.htm
le petit eco - champignoneur allemand /

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Gasification List Archives:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/gasification/current/

Gasification List Moderator:
Tom Reed, Biomass Energy Foundation, Reedtb2@cs.com
www.webpan.com/BEF

From murat.dogru at ncl.ac.uk Fri May 4 06:53:14 2001
From: murat.dogru at ncl.ac.uk (Murat DOGRU)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:19 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Hydrogen Cyanide
In-Reply-To: <001401c0ce2b$327de180$649736d2@graeme>
Message-ID: <3AF20679.26405.518D2F@localhost>

Dear all,

Recently I have tested dried undigested sewage sludge in our
downdraft test gasifier and found that there are high concentrations
of HCN in the product gas. The possible reason for this I believe,
urea in the sewage sludge which forms NH3 and that results HCN
in the pyrolysis zone. Is anyone have any experiences with this and
would like to share with us? Once HCN formed can it be
decomposed or oxidized with O2 in the oxidation zone of the
gasifier? Any information on this will help all of us to understand
more and protect our self. This is a highly toxic gas and I thougth I
should inform you all.

Regards

Murat

From: "Graeme Williams" <graeme@powerlink.co.nz>
To: <gasification@crest.org>
Date sent: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 20:30:45 +1200
Subject: GAS-L: NOX

> Dear Gasification Colleagues
>
> The introduction of steam or water into an engine can reduce NOX emissions
> and has a well documented history of use.
>
> There are however a few traps for the less informed as the benefits are just
> as likely to reverse and create havock with the ignition system and
> lubrication oil.
>
> Steam heated on the exhaust pipe just under the manifold can be introduced
> into the carburettor inlet in a controlled manner. The mix of petrol or
> gasoline and steam then enters the cylinder well mixed. On ignition the
> very high temperature explosion creates the correct to split the steam into
> hydrogen and oxygen. Hence the reports in circulation of engines running on
> hydrogen or water. The end result is that this extra charge of gas and
> oxygen produces a cleaner burn without or less NOX.
>
> As running diesels on dual fuel with producer gas in my own speciality, I
> have found that alland any form of moisture in the gas causes problems.
>
> Adding steam to gas that already is wet, and carries high amounts of dirt or
> soot with the condensable water, we found that every chance to squeeze water
> out of the gas is needed to ensure the gas was clean.
>
> With diesels, the addition of steam or water to "enhance" combustion results
> in heat being stolen from the temperature of diesel igniting to vapourise
> and crack the water. It may happen in a way, but one thing for sure it
> slows the flame front speed and you end up with burning gas or unburnt gas
> going out the exhaust pipe.
>
> Hope this helps.
> Regards
> Doug Williams.
>
>
> -
> Gasification List Archives:
> http://www.crest.org/discussion/gasification/current/
>
> Gasification List Moderator:
> Tom Reed, Biomass Energy Foundation, Reedtb2@cs.com
> www.webpan.com/BEF
>
> Sponsor the Gasification List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html
> -
> Other Gasification Events and Information:
> http://www.fsec.ucf.edu/bioam/
> http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml
> http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
>

-
Gasification List Archives:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/gasification/current/

Gasification List Moderator:
Tom Reed, Biomass Energy Foundation, Reedtb2@cs.com
www.webpan.com/BEF

From tmiles at trmiles.com Fri May 4 11:58:40 2001
From: tmiles at trmiles.com (Tom Miles)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:19 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Hydrogen Cyanide
In-Reply-To: <001401c0ce2b$327de180$649736d2@graeme>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010504085225.026d56b0@mail.easystreet.com>

Murat

Emission of nitrogen compounds from gasification of high N fuels like
sewagte sludge, grains, pits, nuts or shells do not seem to be well
characterized. Our experience has been that we get higher NOx when we burn
the gas than expected. There is probably more NOx, or NOx precursors,
formed in the gasifier than we think.

Regards,

Tom

At 01:31 AM 5/4/01 +0100, Murat DOGRU wrote:

>Dear all,
>
>Recently I have tested dried undigested sewage sludge in our
>downdraft test gasifier and found that there are high concentrations
>of HCN in the product gas. The possible reason for this I believe,
>urea in the sewage sludge which forms NH3 and that results HCN
>in the pyrolysis zone. Is anyone have any experiences with this and
>would like to share with us? Once HCN formed can it be
>decomposed or oxidized with O2 in the oxidation zone of the
>gasifier? Any information on this will help all of us to understand
>more and protect our self. This is a highly toxic gas and I thougth I
>should inform you all.
>
>Regards
>
>Murat
>
>
>
>
>
>
>From: "Graeme Williams" <graeme@powerlink.co.nz>
>To: <gasification@crest.org>
>Date sent: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 20:30:45 +1200
>Subject: GAS-L: NOX
>
> > Dear Gasification Colleagues
> >
> > The introduction of steam or water into an engine can reduce NOX emissions
> > and has a well documented history of use.
> >
> > There are however a few traps for the less informed as the benefits are
> just
> > as likely to reverse and create havock with the ignition system and
> > lubrication oil.
> >
> > Steam heated on the exhaust pipe just under the manifold can be introduced
> > into the carburettor inlet in a controlled manner. The mix of petrol or
> > gasoline and steam then enters the cylinder well mixed. On ignition the
> > very high temperature explosion creates the correct to split the steam into
> > hydrogen and oxygen. Hence the reports in circulation of engines
> running on
> > hydrogen or water. The end result is that this extra charge of gas and
> > oxygen produces a cleaner burn without or less NOX.
> >
> > As running diesels on dual fuel with producer gas in my own speciality, I
> > have found that alland any form of moisture in the gas causes problems.
> >
> > Adding steam to gas that already is wet, and carries high amounts of
> dirt or
> > soot with the condensable water, we found that every chance to squeeze
> water
> > out of the gas is needed to ensure the gas was clean.
> >
> > With diesels, the addition of steam or water to "enhance" combustion
> results
> > in heat being stolen from the temperature of diesel igniting to vapourise
> > and crack the water. It may happen in a way, but one thing for sure it
> > slows the flame front speed and you end up with burning gas or unburnt gas
> > going out the exhaust pipe.
> >
> > Hope this helps.
> > Regards
> > Doug Williams.
> >
> >
> > -
> > Gasification List Archives:
> > http://www.crest.org/discussion/gasification/current/
> >
> > Gasification List Moderator:
> > Tom Reed, Biomass Energy Foundation, Reedtb2@cs.com
> > www.webpan.com/BEF
> >
> > Sponsor the Gasification List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html
> > -
> > Other Gasification Events and Information:
> > http://www.fsec.ucf.edu/bioam/
> > http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml
> > http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
> >
>
>
>
>-
>Gasification List Archives:
>http://www.crest.org/discussion/gasification/current/
>
>Gasification List Moderator:
>Tom Reed, Biomass Energy Foundation, Reedtb2@cs.com
>www.webpan.com/BEF
>
>Sponsor the Gasification List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html
>-
>Other Gasification Events and Information:
>http://www.fsec.ucf.edu/bioam/
>http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml
>http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/

Thomas R Miles tmiles@trmiles.com
T R Miles, TCI Tel 503-292-0107
1470 SW Woodward Way Fax 503-292-2919
Portland, OR 97225 USA

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Gasification List Archives:
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Gasification List Moderator:
Tom Reed, Biomass Energy Foundation, Reedtb2@cs.com
www.webpan.com/BEF

From thomas at biopilze.de Sat May 5 04:09:31 2001
From: thomas at biopilze.de (Thomas Ziegler)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:20 2004
Subject: GAS-L: veggie-oil and ethanol for diesel-engines
In-Reply-To: <7a.145bda7c.28248e90@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3AF3B499.7D6B9695@biopilze.de>

LINVENT@aol.com wrote:
>...we plan on producing a large amount of ethanol and have mobile
> diesel machinery we want to operate. Apparently ethyl ester can be
> made which will operate a diesel engine and uses less vegetable oil
> than the pure oil...
ok, it fully depends on your situation, but generally spoken id adviced:
just use RAW veggie-oil (works as well!!) -is LESS energy consuming:
NO need for investment in expensive equipment for chemical pre-
processing, NO need for ethanol production (biogen or mostly fossile
origin), NO need of further chemical products, NO need to look for the
use of by-product (30%) gycerine... just (keep on) trucking on RAW
veggie-oil..., thomas
--
der kleine deutsche oeko-pilz-anbauer \
the small german organic mushroomer http://www.biopilze.de/wir.htm
le petit eco - champignoneur allemand /

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From keith at journeytoforever.org Sat May 5 06:02:40 2001
From: keith at journeytoforever.org (Keith Addison)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:20 2004
Subject: GAS-L: veggie-oil and ethanol for diesel-engines
In-Reply-To: <7a.145bda7c.28248e90@aol.com>
Message-ID: <v04210100b7197bd0f2f2@[61.124.182.182]>

Thomas Ziegler <thomas@biopilze.de> wrote:

>LINVENT@aol.com wrote:
> >...we plan on producing a large amount of ethanol and have mobile
> > diesel machinery we want to operate. Apparently ethyl ester can be
> > made which will operate a diesel engine and uses less vegetable oil
> > than the pure oil...
>ok, it fully depends on your situation, but generally spoken id adviced:
>just use RAW veggie-oil (works as well!!) -is LESS energy consuming:
>NO need for investment in expensive equipment for chemical pre-
>processing, NO need for ethanol production (biogen or mostly fossile
>origin), NO need of further chemical products, NO need to look for the
>use of by-product (30%) gycerine... just (keep on) trucking on RAW
>veggie-oil..., thomas
>--
>der kleine deutsche oeko-pilz-anbauer \
>the small german organic mushroomer http://www.biopilze.de/wir.htm
>le petit eco - champignoneur allemand /

Both biodiesel and straight vegetable oil (SVO) have their
advantages. Biodiesel is undoubtedly the better fuel (and better
lubricator), but SVO does work, as Thomas says. However, you have to
install a separate fuel system - tank, fuel lines, switchover, etc -
and the whole SVO system has to be pre-heated, in the tank, and
preferably with heated fuel lines or at least a pre-heater on the
fuel line. The dual system is necessary because it is ESSENTIAL to
start the motor and to shut down on either biodiesel or dino-diesel,
or the resultant carbon buildup will wreck your motor. The
pre-heating is necessary to get the WVO to flow, especially in cold
climates. Thomas, with the best methods now available, biodiesel
production leaves much less than 30% glycerine, and good ways are
being found to utilise it to defray overall costs. Glycerine is a
valuable product! It's not that there's less glycerine per se, but
the conversion rate is higher with little or no production of soaps
etc. Also, the equipment to make biodiesel, even in relatively large
quantities, is not at all expensive.

LINVENT - if you plan to make ethyl esters biodiesel using ethanol
you produce yourself, you'll have to find a way of dehydrating the
ethanol. Ethyl esters needs 99%+ ethanol. Here's the established
ethyl esters method:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethyl_esters.html
Ethyl Ester Process

Methyl esters is easier, but methanol is mostly fossil-fuel derived
and it's nasty. It still needs 99%+ though.

For more information see:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm

For more on SVO systems, see:
http://www.veggiepower.org.uk/
Veggiepower The home of UK biofuels
Straight Veg Oil Conversions

Best wishes

Keith Addison
Journey to Forever
Handmade Projects
Tokyo
http://journeytoforever.org/

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From tmiles at trmiles.com Sat May 5 21:23:48 2001
From: tmiles at trmiles.com (Tom Miles)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:20 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Thomas R. Miles Award for Excellence in Bioenergy
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010505182147.0227f150@mail.easystreet.com>

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From bernhard.kronberger at jrc.it Tue May 8 13:30:29 2001
From: bernhard.kronberger at jrc.it (Bernhard Kronberger)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:20 2004
Subject: GAS-L: biomass gasification for hydrogen production
Message-ID: <NEBBLPBDHMCMCMNLCEMJKEAOCDAA.bernhard.kronberger@jrc.it>

I am interested in biomass gasification processes for thermochemical
hydrogen production. Anybody an idea where to get data on performance,
emissions, future potential,...?

Bernhard

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From murat.dogru at ncl.ac.uk Wed May 9 06:32:18 2001
From: murat.dogru at ncl.ac.uk (Murat DOGRU)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:20 2004
Subject: GAS-L: biomass gasification for hydrogen production
In-Reply-To: <NEBBLPBDHMCMCMNLCEMJKEAOCDAA.bernhard.kronberger@jrc.it>
Message-ID: <3AF92AF8.12958.14C6ED@localhost>

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From thomas at biopilze.de Wed May 9 07:06:32 2001
From: thomas at biopilze.de (Thomas Ziegler)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:20 2004
Subject: GAS-L: biomass gasification for hydrogen production
In-Reply-To: <3AF92AF8.12958.14C6ED@localhost>
Message-ID: <3AF9240A.93A5F5D@biopilze.de>

a comment from a "poor" man:
why not putting original papers in full text and raw data online so that
everyone on this planet has easy access to it, not only those at a
university or those who can afford to subscribe to a dozen scientific
journals...?? thomas

>...look at our paper published recently:
> Midilli A., Dogru M., Howarth C.R., Ayhan T, 2001. “Hydrogen Production from Hazelnut Shell by Applying Air-blown Downdraft Gasification Technique”, paper published in International Journal of Hydrogen Energy, ISSN: 0360-3199, Vol. 26, No. 1, Jan-2001,
> pp. 29-37(9).
> > I am interested in biomass gasification processes for thermochemical
> > hydrogen production. Anybody an idea where to get data on performance,
> > emissions, future potential,...?
--
der kleine deutsche oeko-pilz-anbauer \
the small german organic mushroomer http://www.biopilze.de/wir.htm
le petit eco - champignoneur allemand /

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From bernhard.kronberger at jrc.it Wed May 9 09:09:42 2001
From: bernhard.kronberger at jrc.it (Bernhard Kronberger)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:20 2004
Subject: GAS-L: biomass gasification for hydrogen production
Message-ID: <NEBBLPBDHMCMCMNLCEMJCEBFCDAA.bernhard.kronberger@jrc.it>

Thanks to all of you for the information already provided. Now I am able to
specify my needs a bit more:

I would like to get information on forestry waste (=wood) gasification (for
hydrogen production) in Europe. Most of the papers from you refer to
US-costs and feedstocks, (which shows just again that the US are ahead with
this technology.)
The application I'd like to investigate is a medium scale one with a
H2-production capacity of more than 4000 m3N/h. I know that this is far away
from realisation but I hope to get at leaest estiamtions on efficencies and
environmental impacts of this technology.

Thanks, Bernhard

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From jerry5335 at yahoo.com Wed May 9 09:24:17 2001
From: jerry5335 at yahoo.com (jerry dycus)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:20 2004
Subject: GAS-L: biomass gasification for Methane production
In-Reply-To: <3AF92AF8.12958.14C6ED@localhost>
Message-ID: <20010509132348.50576.qmail@web14008.mail.yahoo.com>

Hi All,
My name is jerry dycus and I am a RE addict.
I'm glad that I'm finially able to get on this
list. I read all the pre- Feb archives and was
impressed. Hopefully the old posters will come back
now it's up again.
My goal is to learn about destructive
distillation of biomass to make methane and/or
methanol.
I would like to know how to increase the % of
methane output from a DD of biomass, woody yard
wastes, in a closed retort.
I think you can get H2 and CO by heating it to
1500F+ but I'd rather have a lower temp and an output
of methane to sub for nat gas.
I have data for coal from a great book called
Mark's Handbook, 1934 that looks promising, but does
it work for wood?
Info on wood charcoal making off gasses would help.
Thanks,
jerry dycus

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From snkm at btl.net Wed May 9 09:39:15 2001
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:20 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Refrigerant Working Fluids
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20010509073323.00974d40@wgs1.btl.net>

OK listers -- here it be --

The prefect small power plant -- that can be fitted to any thermal
gasifier. And it is a refrigerant vapor system!

In their bigger systems they use "Butane". In this small system described
below -- they refuse to say. Also -- no figures on efficiencies -- pricing
-- etc. But these devices last for 20 plus years and are 100% maintenance
free.

And yes -- they do "Waste" heat in this manner as well -- check:

http://www.ormat.com/technology_3.htm

Many said it could not be done -- yet it has been happening for many years.

Oh -- check out the solar applications at:

http://www.ormat.com/technology_6.htm

And check out the dates the first systems were put into use!

All I require is that small machine shop to replace the turbine with a
simple piston engine -- and costs come down to rock bottom.

what does this all mean for this Gasification list?? Well, thermal
gasifiers are now very valid! No more product gas conditioning -- specific
fuel conditioning requirements -- and a much better over all efficiency
with incredibly less maintenance and replacement.

Peter Singfield / Belize

The main site is:

http://www.ormat.com/

The following From:

http://www.offshore-technology.com/contractors/power/ormat/index.html

ORMAT® is a manufacturer of ORMAT® Energy Converters (OEC) providing high
reliability, low maintenance power for remote unattended pipeline cathodic
protection, SCADA, valve operation and telecommunications.

OEC SYSTEM DESCRIPTION
The OEC, also known as the Closed Cycle Vapor Turbogenerator (CCVT), is a
fully integrated and tested power system developed for remote applications
in the most extreme environmental conditions. Basically a self-contained
power package – consisting of a combustion system, a vapor generator, a
turboalternator, an air cooled condenser, a rectifier, alarms and controls
housed in a shelter – it will supply 200 to 3,000 Watts of filtered DC
power on a continuous basis, 24 hours a day for periods of over 20 years
with virtually no maintenance or repairs.

The ORMAT® concept utilizes a hermetically sealed Rankine cycle generating
set which contains only one smoothly rotating part, the turbogenerator
shaft, supported by fluid film hydrostatic-hydrodynamic bearings, thereby
eliminating any metal-to-metal contact, resulting in years of trouble-free
operation.

The vapor generator contains an organic motive fluid and the heat generated
by the external fuel burner vaporizes some of this motive fluid, which
expends, causing the turbine to rotate. The vapor the passes into the air
cooled condenser, where it liquefies and is returned to the vapor generator.

The alternator is assembled on the same shaft as the turbine and its output
voltage is a function of the rotational speed of the turbine and the stator
field excitation current. The power output is proportional to the amount of
heat furnished by the burner. The turboalternator assembly is contained
inside a stainless steel canister, hermetically sealed for life. The
pressure in the sealed unit is below atmospheric pressure thus eliminating
any risk of motive fluid.

One of the most original features of the OEC is that it can be run with
different heat sources. since the fluid cycle is closed and requires only
the application of external heat; any heat source may be used: natural gas,
liquefied petroleum gas, kerosene, jet fuel, and diesel fuel.

Low operating costs are achieved by eliminating the need for a large staff
of maintenance mechanics and difficult and expensive site visits.
Consequently, because of its simplicity, maintenance can be performed by
other equipment technicians.

The OEC can be supplied with an integrated Cathodic Protection Voltage
Conversion Module (CPVCM) and replaces the conventional transformer
rectifier where secure continuously reliable cathodic protection is required.

The OEC is the only system of its kind fitted with a CPVCM which is both
modular and flexible and can be used anywhere along pipelines.

The CPVCM is a variable DC voltage source operating on a switching concept,
with voltage regulation by control of duty cycle. The control circuit of
the CPVCM regulates and limits power output by referencing to preset values
of output voltage, or output current, or a reference voltage differential.

The MTBF is very high, over 30,000 hrs for the complete OEC and over
200,000 hrs for the turboalternator. In the Trans-Alaska pipeline project,
after 23 years of operation, the field proven turboalternator MTBF is over
300,000 hrs.

RECENT ORDERS

Ormat has received orders for six, 3 kW CCVTs for power for communications
and telemetry on the Ivana Platform Complex in the Adriatic Sea, six
additional 3 kW CCTVs for the Barbara platforms in the Adriatic and the
Tunu Field project in Indonesia.

Recently OEC's have been ordered for the new Yamal-Europe pipeline project.

ADVANTAGES

Ultra-High Reliability
Virtually Maintenance-Free
Field Proven over 20-year Life
No Overhauls Required
Lowest Life Cycle Cost
Fuelled from Gas Pipeline
Fully Autonomous
Better Pipeline Protection
OEC APPLICATIONS

Remote Power for Telecommunications on unattended offshore gas platforms in
the Adriatic Sea and Atlantic Oceans
Remote Power for Pipeline Cathodic Protection on 2000 km of gas pipelines
in Argentina and HBJ Gas Pipeline India
Remote Power for Telecommunications, SCADA, and Remote Gate Valve (RGV)
along the Urengoy-Uzhgorod and Siberian gas pipeline project
Power Shelters for the Trans-Alaska Pipeline Project

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From Gavin at roseplac.worldonline.co.uk Wed May 9 10:05:37 2001
From: Gavin at roseplac.worldonline.co.uk (Gavin GG)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:20 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Refrigerant Working Fluids
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20010509073323.00974d40@wgs1.btl.net>
Message-ID: <MABBJLGAAFJBOBCKKPMGCEIGCCAA.Gavin@roseplac.worldonline.co.uk>

Hi Peter,
Sorry mate,- see my posts around turn of this year.
We've done Ormat before, the efficiencies are not that exiting and the cost
is high. It's a good technology for geothermal and for particular cold
climate applications where reliability and low maintenance come before
efficiency and cost.
I have contact with the UK rep and have discussed several "waste heat"
applications that could involve Biomass and they just don't stack up as the
net efficiency is only about 10-15% and the cap ex is huge.
Keep posting

Gavin Gulliver-Goodall

-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Singfield [mailto:snkm@btl.net]
Sent: 09 May 2001 13:34
To: gasification@crest.org
Subject: GAS-L: Refrigerant Working Fluids

OK listers -- here it be --

The prefect small power plant -- that can be fitted to any thermal
gasifier. And it is a refrigerant vapor system!

And yes -- they do "Waste" heat in this manner as well -- check:

http://www.ormat.com/technology_3.htm

Many said it could not be done -- yet it has been happening for many years.

Oh -- check out the solar applications at:

http://www.ormat.com/technology_6.htm

And check out the dates the first systems were put into use!

All I require is that small machine shop to replace the turbine with a
simple piston engine -- and costs come down to rock bottom.

Peter Singfield / Belize

The main site is:

http://www.ormat.com/

The following From:

http://www.offshore-technology.com/contractors/power/ormat/index.html

ORMAT(r) is a manufacturer of ORMAT(r) Energy Converters (OEC) providing
high
reliability, low maintenance power for remote unattended pipeline cathodic
protection, SCADA, valve operation and telecommunications.

OEC SYSTEM DESCRIPTION
The OEC, also known as the Closed Cycle Vapor Turbogenerator (CCVT), is a
fully integrated and tested power system developed for remote applications
in the most extreme environmental conditions. Basically a self-contained
power package - consisting of a combustion system, a vapor generator, a
turboalternator, an air cooled condenser, a rectifier, alarms and controls
housed in a shelter - it will supply 200 to 3,000 Watts of filtered DC
power on a continuous basis, 24 hours a day for periods of over 20 years
with virtually no maintenance or repairs.

The ORMAT(r) concept utilizes a hermetically sealed Rankine cycle generating
set which contains only one smoothly rotating part, the turbogenerator
shaft, supported by fluid film hydrostatic-hydrodynamic bearings, thereby
eliminating any metal-to-metal contact, resulting in years of trouble-free
operation.

The OEC is the only system of its kind fitted with a CPVCM which is both
modular and flexible and can be used anywhere along pipelines.

RECENT ORDERS

Recently OEC's have been ordered for the new Yamal-Europe pipeline project.

ADVANTAGES

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From snkm at btl.net Wed May 9 10:42:23 2001
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:20 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Refrigerant Working Fluids
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20010509083523.0097b100@wgs1.btl.net>

At 03:06 PM 5/9/2001 +0100, you wrote:
>Hi Peter,
>Sorry mate,- see my posts around turn of this year.
>We've done Ormat before, the efficiencies are not that exiting and the cost
>is high. It's a good technology for geothermal and for particular cold
>climate applications where reliability and low maintenance come before
>efficiency and cost.
>I have contact with the UK rep and have discussed several "waste heat"
>applications that could involve Biomass and they just don't stack up as the
>net efficiency is only about 10-15% and the cap ex is huge.
>Keep posting
>
>Gavin Gulliver-Goodall

Thanks Gavin!!

It was exactly that kind of reply I went "fishing" for. I just wrote off a
letter to ORMAT specifically asking about efficiencies and cap costs. Will
append a copy here.

It always depends on super heat and the mechanical efficiency of the device
extracting heat to power.

I was chatting last week with a person that does oil refinery work. They
use butane super heated to 2000 F for cleaning/purging certain catalyst
towers. And have a "standard" small boiler (of butane) to do this.

This process has been in common usage for many years -- and is direct fired
-- that is flame to butane boiler tubes.

In the past there were reservations about doing this to even 500 F!! We can
lay that to rest now. No explosions!!

One day I will build that simple reciprocating butane vapor engine. But for
now -- I am very interested in finding out where the present state for this
art "lives".

Putting a piston engine in a hermetically sealed environment is old hat --
look at any house refrigerator. Was interesting to see that ORMAT gets 30
plus years of maintenance free operation from such a device.

Anything to get away from the exceptionally high temperatures involved in
achieving great efficiencies with steam! Because that is what really is
killing the small power plant industry.

For now -- we'll see what I can dig out of the ORMAT engineers. They
certainly have the hands on experience! But they also should be getting
better than 30% efficiencies!! And at competitive costs.

Peter

>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Peter Singfield [mailto:snkm@btl.net]
>Sent: 09 May 2001 13:34
>To: gasification@crest.org
>Subject: GAS-L: Refrigerant Working Fluids
>
>
>OK listers -- here it be --
>
>The prefect small power plant -- that can be fitted to any thermal
>gasifier. And it is a refrigerant vapor system!

**********snipped**********

********appended*********

Dear Sir;

I have on my desk a project for recovering electrical power from rice husks
for the Mennonite community at Blue Creek -- here in Belize, Central
America. Size to be 300 kw.

Browsing your WWW site I could not help but notice your claim for power
plants:

"The revolutionary ORMAT® Energy Converter is today the basis for dozens of
geothermal power plants ranging from 300 kW to over 130 MW."

The present plan is to import a gasifier from India specialized for rice
husks. The result is a producer gas product for thermal combustion.

This to fire a conventional boiler/steam power plant. But this results in
very poor over all efficiencies as these style small applications can never
afford the proper boiler for extra high superheated steam production -- and
the required matching turbine -- for efficient power production.

On the other hand -- it could be feasible to use a binary cycle such as
your company has so successfully developed. That is a hot water boiler
feeding your binary cycle device.

For this reason I am curious to know more regarding your process.

Specifically:

Being that I can easily supply pressurized hot water of 450 F -- what would
be your over all efficiency or operation with water of this temperature
supplied?

That is how much of the btu value of heat supplied in hot water results in
"net" electrical power production.

Also -- thermodynamically super heat is everything in regards to over all
efficiency. The rest is the mechanical efficiency of the extraction device.
I understand you use turbines for heat from vapor to mechanical power
extraction. A well designed turbine should reach optimum performance for
such tasks.

What are just your turbine efficiencies with highly super heated butane at
400 F?? (allowing for 50F loss in heat exchanging -- generous!)

At what point in the curve does extra super-heat become invalid due to
costs -- as in the steam example above?

I take 400 F as the base line -- but could easily supply heat to your
device as super heated steam of 600 F. Though that increases my boiler
costs compared to pressurized hot water.

Looking at the charts -- 400 F super heated butane vapor is equivalent
better than 1400 F super heated steam.

And finally, most important, what are your costs??

Of further interest for us here in Belize is your:

"REMOTE POWER ENERGY CONVERTERS"

[it will supply 200 to 3,000 Watts of filtered DC power on a continuous
basis, 24 hours a day for periods of over 20 years with virtually no
maintenance or repairs]

What is your pricing for these devices??

Could such a device be operated from steam/pressurized hot water?

Peter Singfield
COROGEN
Executive Director
Xaibe Village
Corozal District
Belize, Central America
Tel 501-4-35213
E-mail: snkm@btl.net

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From jerry5335 at yahoo.com Wed May 9 11:32:00 2001
From: jerry5335 at yahoo.com (jerry dycus)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:20 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Refrigerant Working Fluids
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20010509083523.0097b100@wgs1.btl.net>
Message-ID: <20010509153125.66566.qmail@web14003.mail.yahoo.com>

Hi Peter, Gavin and All,
The Ormat is a simple low maintance unit that
gives up eff for long life and no labor.
By using piston engines, heat recovery , eff goes
way up.
Some people have used Sanden car AC scroll
compressors for engines. Does anyone know how they
worked out?
Others use car AC piston compressors or 2 stroke
ICE engines with new valving in the head.
Be sure to insulate the whole engine, boiler, ect
and use heat recovery to save and recycle those BTU's.
A btu in the hand is worth 2 in the bush ;-).
I hear propane/ butane is more eff than water, is
this true?
Thanks,
jerry dycus
--- Peter Singfield <snkm@btl.net> wrote:
> At 03:06 PM 5/9/2001 +0100, you wrote:
> >Hi Peter,
> >Sorry mate,- see my posts around turn of this year.
> >We've done Ormat before, the efficiencies are not
> that exiting and the cost
> >is high. It's a good technology for geothermal and
> for particular cold
> >climate applications where reliability and low
> maintenance come before
> >efficiency and cost.
> >I have contact with the UK rep and have discussed
> several "waste heat"
> >applications that could involve Biomass and they
> just don't stack up as the
> >net efficiency is only about 10-15% and the cap ex
> is huge.
> >Keep posting
> >
> >Gavin Gulliver-Goodall
>
> Thanks Gavin!!
>

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From jerry5335 at yahoo.com Wed May 9 11:45:36 2001
From: jerry5335 at yahoo.com (jerry dycus)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:20 2004
Subject: GAS-L: biomass gasification for hydrogen production
In-Reply-To: <NEBBLPBDHMCMCMNLCEMJCEBFCDAA.bernhard.kronberger@jrc.it>
Message-ID: <20010509154432.84869.qmail@web14004.mail.yahoo.com>

Hi Bernard and All,
What would you use all that H2 for? It's only
useful if you can use it right away because storing it
is an expensive pain in the butt.
Generally if you heat any hydrocarbon to 1500F+
you get H2 and CO which can be used to run the
process.
Inject some steam and you get more H2 and CO from
the reaction of the steam and the leftover carbon.
Mix steam and CO2 at 1500F+ and you get more H2
and CO.
H2 is easy to make but hard to use. Methane,
basiclly nat gas, is better, worth more, easier to
handle.
jerry dycus
--- Bernhard Kronberger <bernhard.kronberger@jrc.it>
wrote:
> Thanks to all of you for the information already
> provided. Now I am able to
> specify my needs a bit more:
>
> I would like to get information on forestry waste
> (=wood) gasification (for
> hydrogen production) in Europe. Most of the papers
> from you refer to
> US-costs and feedstocks, (which shows just again
> that the US are ahead with
> this technology.)
> The application I'd like to investigate is a medium
> scale one with a
> H2-production capacity of more than 4000 m3N/h. I
> know that this is far away
> from realisation but I hope to get at leaest
> estiamtions on efficencies and
> environmental impacts of this technology.
>
> Thanks, Bernhard
>
>
>
>
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>
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From snkm at btl.net Wed May 9 12:23:47 2001
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:20 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Refrigerant Working Fluids
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20010509100752.009776f0@wgs1.btl.net>

Both at once Tom T.

At 10:46 AM 5/9/2001 EDT, you wrote:
>Dear Peter,
> I have been quoting Ormat in our power plant configurations for some
>time. The capital cost is a bit high for many capital plant considerations,
>but the life cycle cost is very reasonable.
> How about a solid displacement engine without a shaft? I have such a
>design.

Now that sounds interesting. Point me to where I can learn more.

But I still say the unaflow engine adapted to back pressure operation is
the way to go. Simple, economic to build, well proven and bullet proof.

The single adaption is an exhaust valve in piston modification. That is a
valve in piston opens at bottom of power stroke so return does not result
in to high compression as would be experienced from running a Unaflow with
the standard GMC diesel style -- slots at bottom of stroke -- exhaust
ports. That can only work with a vacuum pulling on the exhaust.

Why the valve in piston?? To keep the design "Uniflow". That is from intake
on the top to exhaust out the bottom. This results in higher efficiencies
-- just like the other popular uniflow design -- the turbine.

Other wise you end up pushing your cold, expended, charge back up into your
hot area to exhaust out the cylinder head -- as in conventional IC piston
engines. And this costs thermodynamically.

Just thought I would through this in to clear up a few details regarding
why we need to go with a unaflow design.

Valve in piston steam engines where being built since day one. Easy to make
up. Nothing fancy there at all.

So starting -- Is the "solid displacement engine without a shaft" of
uniflow characteristics?? If not -- it is a thermodynamic loser when
applied to vapor/mechanical extraction purposes.

At 10:47 AM 5/9/2001 EDT, you wrote:
>Peter,
> By the way, if you use an Ormat, your comments about gas cleaning and so
>on are not very useful when it comes to large plants. IC engines are still
>the best outside of turbines with up to 41% efficiency in IC engines. Ormat
>is 18%. Not very swuft. I couldn't sell any of these.
>

I can't understand why they are getting such low efficiencies. Though
certainly 18% is great when compared to low pressure steam power plants
such as Hurst sells.

But theoretically -- such plants should come in at greater economy of costs.

For instance -- the Hurst Boiler design is limited for over all
efficiencies due to lack of ability in achieving high steam super heat. Yet
this same boiler would be over-kill for a butane cycle system such as Ormat
puts out. Presently Hurst gets about 11% efficiencies -- which are
justifiable due to the fact that they are using "waste" fuels and many of
their applications have use for the vast amounts of waste heat produced.

I could order a Hurst boiler as a pressurized hot water "heater" and run
the Ormat.

If Ormat is only getting 19% at best -- then they are not operating above
-- say -- 275 F -- that is not enough super heat.

At 400 F they should be able to get better than 30%.

Or their turbines are not properly configured.

Ergo -- lets build that small unaflow!! As the piston Unaflow comes to
within 1% of the best turbines in mechanical efficiency over any range of
steam quality.

Well, the list is quite these days -- maybe we should poke around here a
bit more?

I dug up that message Gavin refs to and have appended it.

Here is the "meat" of it:

----------------------------------------------
Mike,
I have spoken to the UK agent(?) for Ormat
It seems that they are only about 10% efficient (hot water in to electricity
out) which is a bit disappointing from a CHP point of view but apparently
very reliable for unattended operation.- unlike our woodchip gasifiers!!

I am following up some potential applications for the Ormat and will share
any further technical info.

Gavin Gulliver-Goodall
-----------------------------------------------

So Gavin -- did you find out any tech info -- like at what temperatures
they are operating their butane cycle at?

And Tom -- one last point -- I have a great turbine building company that
can design a turbine optimized for top efficiencies for butane at the 450 F
range. And will certainly result in much better than 30% (probably 30%)
over all efficiencies. Also at cheaper than normal turbine costs as the
materials are simpler for 450F operation than 1200 F operation.

They build turbines from 50 kw to 10 megawatt

So what is stopping us from just going forward??

As the reply to Gavin below puts it:

----------------------------------------
Ormat in Sparks NV has a binary system to use low quality heat
(www.ormat.com).
They won't tell you anything technical as I sure it's all proprietary.
However, it is worthwhile to understand what other have been able to do
commercially.

Mike Norris
-----------------------------------------

It certainly proves this technology is there -- ready to be applied.

For my small plants -- the turbine is always to expensive -- ergo -- the
Uniflow needs a resurrection. But Tom -- for your jobs -- go with the
turbine! Just don't go with Ormat!

Any proper turbine manufacturer can work up a turbine for butane vapor!
Pray tell -- what is so complicated about that? Wind is wind -- be it a
butane vapor wind or a steam wind or any other vapor wind. so much
expansion through so many stages -- until the vapor reaches near its
condensation point. The more super heat -- the more stages -- the more
power -- the greater over all efficiencies.

That is the "mechanics" involved -- and is written in stone.

Put me on your staff and I'd have the complete quotes on your desk in one
weeks time! All from here at my terminal in Belize!!

If you want to save design time -- buy the piping -- heat exchangers --
cooling towers -- etc -- from Ormat or other geothermal power plant
suppliers. They all use butane!

I do not see any black magic here -- no matter how close lipped they are
about their proprietary processes -- do you?

Reliability is directly related to operation temperature. You simply can't
beat the refrigeration cycle devices there! Not even with that large
Wartsila burning gas at 41% efficiencies. Especially not! Factor in
operation and serve and maintenance.

I tell you all again -- there is no reason from a "physical" perspective
that butane vapor at 400 F can't be operating at better than 40% over all
efficiencies! And yes -- hermetically sealed -- to do such with no decrease
in performance -- for 30 plus years!!

Just work out metal fatigue at 400 F then at 1200 F!!!

If biomass gasifiers are ever to become commercially competitive -- we need
this!

For micro, small, medium, large and extra-large sizes.

Right now -- I can't even sell a 300 kw biomass power plant to the
Mennonites here -- operating on their rice husk wastes -- due to intensive
capital costs, intensive operation and maintenance costs -- even though
diesel prices are going through the roof!

Plus they buy a fortune in butane to dry the rice!!

Sure -- you first world guys are rich and can get funds to build anything
-- and worry about the commercial viability of the project only years later
when the device starts costing a small fortune to maintain in return for
the profit gained.

But we here in 3rd world need better! So get out of your ruts -- you people
that are in the right position -- and start looking in new directions!

But granted -- that sure is going to be hard to do -- without some one like
me to "guide" you.

And of course -- all peoples from 3rd world are absolutely forbidden to do
work in 1rst world areas of "control"

And here we sit -- going no where because of it. Waiting for Brazil, India
or China to do something. Because 1rst world is not only over pricing
itself into economic oblivion -- but is so comfortable in its rut --
everyone making money -- and what else counts?

The future counts! And there is no future for people that stagnate -- no
matter what their excuses are -- even a big fat bank account! Time eats
bank accounts like sun light melts snow.

Onwards and upwards -- or crash and burn! Always!

Peter Singfield / Belize

>Sincerely,
>Leland T. Taylor
> President
> Thermogenics Inc.
>7100-2nd St. NW, Albuquerque, New Mexico 87107
>phone 505-344-4846 fax 505-344-6090
>Attached files are zipped and can be decompressed with <A
>HREF="http://www.aladdinsys.com/expander/">www.aladdinsys.com/expander/ </A>

*****************appended**********

To: <gasification@crest.org>
Subject: RE: GAS-L: heat engines
From: "Gavin Gulliver-Goodall" <Gavin@roseplac.worldonline.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 16:48:55 -0000
Importance: Normal
In-Reply-To: <D189DDC2D58BD411B98100D0B7C8BF453A7AD6@EXCHANGE1>
Reply-To: gasification@crest.org
Sender: owner-gasification@crest.org

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----

Mike,
I have spoken to the UK agent(?) for Ormat
It seems that they are only about 10% efficient (hot water in to electricity
out) which is a bit disappointing from a CHP point of view but apparently
very reliable for unattended operation.- unlike our woodchip gasifiers!!

I am following up some potential applications for the Ormat and will share
any further technical info.

Gavin Gulliver-Goodall

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-gasification@crest.org [mailto:owner-gasification@crest.org]
On Behalf Of Mike Norris
Sent: 22 January 2001 14:05
To: 'gasification@crest.org'
Subject: RE: GAS-L: heat engines

I'd try a brayton cycle at those temperatures. I'm assuming you mean 280C.

Ormat in Sparks NV has a binary system to use low quality heat
(www.ormat.com).
They won't tell you anything technical as I sure it's all proprietary.
However, it is worthwhile to understand what others have been able to do
commercially.

Mike Norris

> -----Original Message-----
> From: WCROREY@aol.com [SMTP:WCROREY@aol.com]
> Sent: Sunday, January 21, 2001 9:35 PM
> To: gasification@crest.org
> Subject: GAS-L: heat engines
>
> I'm new to the group.
> I am trying to find a "heat engine" to extract rotating mechanical energy
> from amonia vapor approximately 280degrees at 150 psi. We are hoping to
> burn
> gasifier produced gas in a boiler which will serve as the heat source for
> the
> potential ammonia system. Either Rankin or Carnot cycle - perferable
> Carnot
> cycle.
>
> We are trying to build a small proto type system for about 50 KW of
> generating capacity.
>
> Any help or direction would be appreciated.
>
> Thank you -- Bill Crorey
> The Gasification List is sponsored by
> USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/
> and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com
>
> Other Sponsors, Archives and Information
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The Gasification List is sponsored by
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From snkm at btl.net Wed May 9 13:32:51 2001
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:20 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Refrigerant Working Fluids
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20010509112644.00910d60@wgs1.btl.net>

Hi Jerry;

> I hear propane/ butane is more eff than water, is
>this true?

Not really true. However -- one can achieve the same super heated vapor
conditions required for high efficiency operation at a much lower temperature.

Appended find the "blurb" for Ormat small power plants -- that run for ever
and one day. Apparently they are far to pricy -- and only get 10% over all
efficiency

On the other hand -- try to find a 200 to 3000 watt heat based power plant
anywhere that will get even close to 10% efficiencies!! They do not exist!!

I see no problems building this same style device -- using piston instead
of turbine -- and getting at least 20% over all eff. -- and still running
20 years with no maintenance and selling for an extremely competitive price.

As people on this list can vouch -- I have been singing this song for years
now!

What would be the size of a gasifier to supply the btu required?? Well,
even at 10% over all efficiencies one is talking:

3kw * 3414 = 10,242 btu (per hour)

At 10% efficiency -- one needs 102,420 gross.

This as output from the thermal gasifier.

Now figure that gasifier at 80% efficiency:

We need fuel of 128,025 btu capacity.

Say wood of proper humidity at 7000 btu per pound.

18.28 pounds of dry wood per hour.

For comparison -- Going over to Skip's sight:

www.sensiblesteam.com\page6.htm

His excellent FAQ's regarding power production in a small plant burning
dried wood as fuel:

.....How much wood do I want to cut?
Most people say "I have plenty of trees." What they don't realize is the
material handling involved in using an unrefined fuel. There is a lot of
elbow grease involved in the handling of wood. What you need to realize is
that in all practicality, there is just not that much electricity in a
stick of wood. In typical steam systems, a small 500 watt genset may
consume 20 lbs. of wood an hour while a larger 10kw a.c. powerplant if run
constantly could consume a cord of softwood in three days. Now you see why
coal and oil can look like viable options! Sure, you can get more by being
more efficient, but that is a matter of cost, so.......

*************************

We see 20 lbs to produce 500 watts.

So the butane cycle device married to a small gasifier is well over 6 times
more efficient!!

I mentioned all this to Skip some while back -- but he is filling his bank
well as it is and can't be bothered to rock the boat.

Actually -- all members on this list from "developed" countries feel the
same.

So we burn six times more fuel than is required!! And that just using this
one example -- from off the shelf components. Never mind what I could do
given the proper circumstances!

It is an understatement to say modern world is getting to fat!

Now -- finishing the above example -- just how big is a gasifier that would
consume 20 lbs of wood per hour -- and how much would that cost?

Shifting over to a 3rd world supplier for this info (where else but at 3rd
world!!)

(You can verify at: http://aew.aewgasifiers.com/)

The closest I find is their:

GT-400 Thermal 200,000 $ 2,380

This consumes wood at 200,000 btu/hr rate:

Wood ChipConsumption (approx. in Kgs)
25-30 (call it 27.5)

But we will be operating at just 102400 BTU/hr so:

102,400/200,000 = 51.2% * 27.5 = 14.08 * 2.2 = 31 pounds wood per hour.

That for a continuous 3000 watts!

Better break that down to per kwh -- say 10 lbs

A poor household here in Belize uses 25 kwh per month!

So -- 250 pounds per month.

And lots of room for improvement if I ever get that chance!

Now -- if one ran that power plant at full capacity for 24 hours per day --
30 days per month --

2160 kwh per month

divide by 25 per household = 86 households

Put in a micro grid -- and one entire village has electrical power!

Each household would need to supply 250 pounds of dried wood per month.

Now -- what would be the cost of this power plant?

$2300 for the gasifier. How much for the Ormat described below?? Probably
far to much!!

Can we do better?

Certainly!!

Will we do it?

No modern nation will ever get involved in this style project! Better sell
3rd world refined fuels -- burn up our planet -- and just keep banking money!

Our best power solution for this country Belize is to instal Wartsila
diesel power plants burning crude oil -- Venezuela has offered us 30 years
at maximum price of $30 per barrel for crude delivered!!

And there folks you have it!! Some "facts" and numbers to go with all the
propaganda those so "Green" spouting Northerners hammer down all our
throats all the time!

Let it burn baby -- just let it burn!

Peter Singfield / Belize

************appended**********

Remote Power Units
Time, the only true test of reliability

The ORMAT® Energy Converter (OEC), a Closed Cycle Vapor Turbogenerator
(CCVT), is a fully integrated and tested power system developed for remote
applications. Basically a self-contained power package--consisting of a
combustion system, a vapor generator, a turboalternator, an air cooled
condenser, a rectifier, alarms, and controls housed in a shelter--it will
supply 200 to 3000 Watts of filtered DC power on a continuous 24 hour per
day basis for over 20 years with virtually no maintenance or repairs.

The ORMAT concept utilizes a hermetically sealed organic Rankine cycle
generating set which contains only one smoothly rotating part--the shaft on
which the turbine wheel brushless alternator rotor are mounted. The
turboalternator shaft is supported by working fluid film bearings which
eliminate any metal-to-metal contact, resulting in years of trouble-free
operation.

One of its most original features is that it can be run with different heat
sources, since the fluid cycle is closed and requires only the application
of external heat; almost any heat source may be used: natural gas,
liquified petroleum gas, kerosene, jet fuel, and diesel fuel.

At 08:31 AM 5/9/2001 -0700, you wrote:
> Hi Peter, Gavin and All,
> The Ormat is a simple low maintance unit that
>gives up eff for long life and no labor.
> By using piston engines, heat recovery , eff goes
>way up.
> Some people have used Sanden car AC scroll
>compressors for engines. Does anyone know how they
>worked out?
> Others use car AC piston compressors or 2 stroke
>ICE engines with new valving in the head.
> Be sure to insulate the whole engine, boiler, ect
>and use heat recovery to save and recycle those BTU's.
> A btu in the hand is worth 2 in the bush ;-).
> I hear propane/ butane is more eff than water, is
>this true?
> Thanks,
> jerry dycus
>--- Peter Singfield <snkm@btl.net> wrote:
>> At 03:06 PM 5/9/2001 +0100, you wrote:
>> >Hi Peter,
>> >Sorry mate,- see my posts around turn of this year.
>> >We've done Ormat before, the efficiencies are not
>> that exiting and the cost
>> >is high. It's a good technology for geothermal and
>> for particular cold
>> >climate applications where reliability and low
>> maintenance come before
>> >efficiency and cost.
>> >I have contact with the UK rep and have discussed
>> several "waste heat"
>> >applications that could involve Biomass and they
>> just don't stack up as the
>> >net efficiency is only about 10-15% and the cap ex
>> is huge.
>> >Keep posting
>> >
>> >Gavin Gulliver-Goodall
>>
>> Thanks Gavin!!
>>
>
>
>__________________________________________________
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>
>-
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>
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>www.webpan.com/BEF
>
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>-
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From snkm at btl.net Wed May 9 15:11:43 2001
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:20 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Refrigerant Working Fluids
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20010509123744.00977580@wgs1.btl.net>

Peter,
By the way, if you use an Ormat, your comments about gas cleaning and so
on are not very useful when it comes to large plants. IC engines are still
the best outside of turbines with up to 41% efficiency in IC engines. Ormat
is 18%. Not very swuft. I couldn't sell any of these.

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Gasification List Archives:
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From jerry5335 at yahoo.com Wed May 9 21:01:38 2001
From: jerry5335 at yahoo.com (jerry dycus)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:20 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Refrigerant Working Fluids
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20010509123744.00977580@wgs1.btl.net>
Message-ID: <20010510010109.77008.qmail@web14002.mail.yahoo.com>

Hi Leyland and All,
--- Peter Singfield <snkm@btl.net> wrote:
> Peter,
> By the way, if you use an Ormat, your comments
> about gas cleaning and so
> on are not very useful when it comes to large
> plants. IC engines are still
> the best outside of turbines with up to 41%
> efficiency in IC engines.
Few turbines get better than 40% eff unless
they use combined cycle units on the exhaust or many
reheats.
Only very, very large ICE's can get to 40% eff.
In smaller sizes 15 to 30% is more common.
> Ormat
> is 18%. Not very swuft. I couldn't sell any of
> these.
In this size range of under 10 hp, 18% is not bad
for a steam/ butane style engine. It's probably more
like 10% eff.
jerry dycus
>
> Sincerely,
> Leland T. Taylor
> President
> Thermogenics Inc.
> 7100-2nd St. NW, Albuquerque, New Mexico 87107
> phone 505-344-4846 fax 505-344-6090

__________________________________________________
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From snkm at btl.net Thu May 10 01:23:40 2001
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:20 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Refrigerant Working Fluids
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20010509231720.00979a50@wgs1.btl.net>

At 06:01 PM 5/9/2001 -0700, you wrote:
> Hi Leyland and All,
>--- Peter Singfield <snkm@btl.net> wrote:
>> Peter,
>> By the way, if you use an Ormat, your comments
>> about gas cleaning and so
>> on are not very useful when it comes to large
>> plants. IC engines are still
>> the best outside of turbines with up to 41%
>> efficiency in IC engines.
> Few turbines get better than 40% eff unless
>they use combined cycle units on the exhaust or many
>reheats.
> Only very, very large ICE's can get to 40% eff.

And the latest "Huge" Wartsilas's get better than 50% burning crude.

Plus they could still recover another good boost from their waste heat. By
using a refrigeration cycle. At least 5% more. The waste heat boilers are
already in place -- supplying steam at 116 PSI -- and then still a lot of
hot water.

>In smaller sizes 15 to 30% is more common.

The low super heat boilers are lucky to get 10% -- even in megawatts sizes.
Such as the power plant at our local Sugar Factory.

>> Ormat
>> is 18%. Not very swuft. I couldn't sell any of
>> these.
> In this size range of under 10 hp, 18% is not bad
>for a steam/ butane style engine. It's probably more
>like 10% eff.

Wonder what the over all efficiency is of the small gasoline gensets -- say
3000 watt range -- such as Honda?

Then -- what would be the efficiency of these old low RPM Lister diesel
power plants??

But then -- that is refined fuels.

The gasifier makers claim 16% over all efficiencies for 3 to 5 kw plants
when supplementing diesel. If I have time tomorrow -- it is easy to derive
the real figures from the AEW people's WWW site.

http://aew.aewgasifiers.com/

So much wood per kw production supplementing "up-to" 70% of diesel
consumption.

Would like a clearer definition on the "up-to" part thought.

I always figure co-firing biomass with diesel as "cheating".

I still say it is very possible to get 30% efficiencies in a 3000 watt
plant using a simple piston vapor cycle engine running butane vapor super
heated to 400 F.

Simply tacking that on to a small gasifying bed boiler.

Let's see -- I believe 70% boiler efficiency is expected for 35% humidity
wood fuel.

Hmm -- I would need 42.8% vapor cycle/engine/generator efficiency to have a
net 30% over-all.

Theoretically possible -- but might be hard in practice.

Now I wonder just how Tom is figuring 41% efficiencies gasifying biomass??

The 41% is probably just engine efficiency --

Tom -- how much kwh (net) are you getting from what btu value of fuel put in?

So folks -- seems to me even 20% "over-all" efficiencies for a under 5 kw
biomass power plant would be exceptionally good.

OK -- here are the AEW calculations.

Model GE-100
-------------------
Rated Electrical output in KW
5

Wood Chip/ Biomass Consumption Kg/Hr.
5

Wood Chips acceptable Range
1/2"-1 1/2"

Moisture content acceptable range %
5-20

So -- 11 lbs of 7000 btu/lb wood = 77,000 btu = 22.55 kw in

So 22.55 kwh in gives 5 kw out = 22%

But now -- just how do we fit in that minimum of 30% diesel??

Well, 11 lbs (22.55 kw) of would supplies a maximum of 70% of the energy
requirements. Diesel fuel the other 30%

So under the best of conditions (which probably rarely exist -- and not for
any great length of time)

5000 * 30% = 1500

5000 - 1500 = 3500

Now we see that it takes 22.55 kw worth of wood to produce -- at the best
of times -- 3500 watts.

350/22.55 = 15.52%

And still married to diesel!!

And requiring properly sized fuel and dried to 5 to 20% humidity!!

No folks -- the future lies in refrigerant vapor cycle devices.

You could even "lose" the gasifier -- go straight combustion -- and still
come out better. Burn any size and shape of biomass fuel -- and wet besides!!

And still do better -- and need no diesel at all!!

If you massed produced the unaflow vapor engine at the same rate as the
small Chinese diesels used on the AEW system -- the engine price would be
half or much less!!

The cost involved in the equipment to clean product before running that
diesel would more than pay for the heat exchangers.

And there would also be considerable savings in building a normal
combustion furnace rather than a gasifier.

Guess it is for all the above reasons that "moderns" insist on gasifying --
just to hold the rest of the world down and dependent on fossil fuels.

Sounds ridiculous -- but now -- prove me wrong in those figures above!!

Folks -- this is what happens technological niches get fat -- they get lazy
-- and refuse to accept any change. Yet if gasification does not get with
the times -- it most certainly has no future.

Going the way of Ormat -- that is refrigerant vapor technology -- will
breath new life into this dinosaur technology.

The "key" is a simple engine to allow efficient operation at economic
pricing. And I have just the design!

Peter Singfield / Belize

> jerry dycus
>>
>> Sincerely,
>> Leland T. Taylor
>> President
>> Thermogenics Inc.
>> 7100-2nd St. NW, Albuquerque, New Mexico 87107
>> phone 505-344-4846 fax 505-344-6090
>
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
>http://auctions.yahoo.com/
>

-
Gasification List Archives:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/gasification/current/

Gasification List Moderator:
Tom Reed, Biomass Energy Foundation, Reedtb2@cs.com
www.webpan.com/BEF

From bernhard.kronberger at jrc.it Thu May 10 04:41:06 2001
From: bernhard.kronberger at jrc.it (Bernhard Kronberger)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:20 2004
Subject: GAS-L: biomass gasification for hydrogen production
In-Reply-To: <20010509154432.84869.qmail@web14004.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBLPBDHMCMCMNLCEMJAEBNCDAA.bernhard.kronberger@jrc.it>

Dear Jerry,

The application we are looking at is an airport system, including fuelling
buses and other airport-vehicles (fuel cell or ICE) but we are also
considering substituting kerosene and using (liquid) hydrogen as an aircraft
fuel. The latter option would require an amount of 40000mN3/h (first scale
would be 4000mN3/h) and we are considering a modular design in order to be
able to adopt our system to this capacity.

We are doing a system analysis on that and would like to be able answering
questions like necessary investment, environmantel pressure, landuse,...

Thus, I am looking trying to get cost statements and maybe other details for
such a system. (If possible, data for both unit-capacaties and on unit level
(gasifier, scrubber, pressure swing adsortpion,…?)

kind regards,

Bernhard

-
Gasification List Archives:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/gasification/current/

Gasification List Moderator:
Tom Reed, Biomass Energy Foundation, Reedtb2@cs.com
www.webpan.com/BEF

From Gavin at roseplac.worldonline.co.uk Thu May 10 05:27:09 2001
From: Gavin at roseplac.worldonline.co.uk (Gavin GG)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:20 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Refrigerant Working Fluids
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20010509231720.00979a50@wgs1.btl.net>
Message-ID: <MABBJLGAAFJBOBCKKPMGIEIJCCAA.Gavin@roseplac.worldonline.co.uk>

Peter,
I think you are correct about Gasification and pyrolysis vs. "normal"
combustion.

However the other point that you haven't addresses is the parasitic load to
operate the gasifier/burner on these small 3kW gensets .
My feeling is that if they are to run continuously and largely unsupervised
they have to be automatic- at least with a hopper to fill with fuel once a
day or so. And I fear that the energy to drive an auger feed and maybe a id
fan will pinch most of your 3kW.
Certainly the reliable stoker burner units sold in Europe have a 1.5 kW
motor running intermittently for the fuel feed and the starting current for
each feed cycle would blow the generator- OK a dc motor properly geared
would solve that problem but still consume a significant share of your 3kW.

Hey Ho-

I still like your Butane plant getting the funding to develop it is clearly
the problem. Our Government will happily throw money at developing another
small chp gasifier but probably not at a novel butane turbine to sit on top
of a cooking stove and solve 3rd world electricity needs! Might be worth a
try though; would need a partner with the right credentials and experience
in turbine design and hermetically sealed systems.

Gavin

-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Singfield [mailto:snkm@btl.net]
Sent: 10 May 2001 05:18
To: gasification@crest.org
Subject: Re: GAS-L: Refrigerant Working Fluids

And the latest "Huge" Wartsilas's get better than 50% burning crude.

>In smaller sizes 15 to 30% is more common.

The low super heat boilers are lucky to get 10% -- even in megawatts sizes.
Such as the power plant at our local Sugar Factory.

>> Ormat
>> is 18%. Not very swuft. I couldn't sell any of
>> these.
> In this size range of under 10 hp, 18% is not bad
>for a steam/ butane style engine. It's probably more
>like 10% eff.

Wonder what the over all efficiency is of the small gasoline gensets -- say
3000 watt range -- such as Honda?

Then -- what would be the efficiency of these old low RPM Lister diesel
power plants??

But then -- that is refined fuels.

The gasifier makers claim 16% over all efficiencies for 3 to 5 kw plants
when supplementing diesel. If I have time tomorrow -- it is easy to derive
the real figures from the AEW people's WWW site.

http://aew.aewgasifiers.com/

So much wood per kw production supplementing "up-to" 70% of diesel
consumption.

Would like a clearer definition on the "up-to" part thought.

I always figure co-firing biomass with diesel as "cheating".

I still say it is very possible to get 30% efficiencies in a 3000 watt
plant using a simple piston vapor cycle engine running butane vapor super
heated to 400 F.

Simply tacking that on to a small gasifying bed boiler.

Let's see -- I believe 70% boiler efficiency is expected for 35% humidity
wood fuel.

Hmm -- I would need 42.8% vapor cycle/engine/generator efficiency to have a
net 30% over-all.

Theoretically possible -- but might be hard in practice.

Now I wonder just how Tom is figuring 41% efficiencies gasifying biomass??

The 41% is probably just engine efficiency --

Tom -- how much kwh (net) are you getting from what btu value of fuel put
in?

So folks -- seems to me even 20% "over-all" efficiencies for a under 5 kw
biomass power plant would be exceptionally good.

OK -- here are the AEW calculations.

Model GE-100
-------------------
Rated Electrical output in KW
5

Wood Chip/ Biomass Consumption Kg/Hr.
5

Wood Chips acceptable Range
1/2"-1 1/2"

Moisture content acceptable range %
5-20

So -- 11 lbs of 7000 btu/lb wood = 77,000 btu = 22.55 kw in

So 22.55 kwh in gives 5 kw out = 22%

But now -- just how do we fit in that minimum of 30% diesel??

Well, 11 lbs (22.55 kw) of would supplies a maximum of 70% of the energy
requirements. Diesel fuel the other 30%

So under the best of conditions (which probably rarely exist -- and not for
any great length of time)

5000 * 30% = 1500

5000 - 1500 = 3500

Now we see that it takes 22.55 kw worth of wood to produce -- at the best
of times -- 3500 watts.

350/22.55 = 15.52%

And still married to diesel!!

And requiring properly sized fuel and dried to 5 to 20% humidity!!

No folks -- the future lies in refrigerant vapor cycle devices.

You could even "lose" the gasifier -- go straight combustion -- and still
come out better. Burn any size and shape of biomass fuel -- and wet
besides!!