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November 2001 Gasification Archive

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From Carefreeland at aol.com Thu Nov 1 06:46:42 2001
From: Carefreeland at aol.com (Carefreeland@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:42 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Shipping biomass
Message-ID: <99.1cf90633.2912900f@aol.com>

Peter, Tom M,
Good to here from you Peter, did you dodge the "devil winds"? (Peters
home In Belize was ravaged by a terrible 140 mph hurricane recently) I hope
you and yours are all right!
I think what we want to do with the bagasse, is to use a little primary
decomposition and washing of the decomposed material to try to lower the ash
and nitrogen compounds. This should make a more of a clean burning pellet.
It may require less pressure to compress to the desired density after the
fiber is a little broken down.
Maybe take some of your "green" bagasse and put it in a plastic trash can
with some water. When it starts to decompose, pull samples out at daily
intervals to check for the consistency you want. The water will siphon to
the garden and add much nutrient. This would be your anaerobic experiment.
For a slower, aerobic experiment. Just pile the waste on the garden, use
at least a cu. yard or two. Turn with a fork from time to time to avoid
compaction. The plentiful rain will quickly wash some of the ash out and
much of the nitrogen will leave through ammonia release or dissolving of
nitrates. Again when a fibrous compost with no green color is produced but
not a complete decomposition, you have your feedstock.
You can run compacting tests with the simple turning of a vise. Two
rings of pipe that fit tightly inside one another would work for a form.
Good luck with your experiments. Hope to hear the results.
I hope that your country's plight is not forgotten in the wake of recent
events.
Oh, I want to mention that we have quite a few Mennonites here in Ohio
too.
I learned much from them at the Akron, Hydroponics Society of America
Conference.
Contrary to popular belief, they are anything but backwards. I know a guy
who hauls livestock and produce for them, and he says that they are the best
people he has ever worked for.
Good luck Peter, Thanks for all the great contributions,
Daniel Dimiduk

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From snkm at btl.net Thu Nov 1 15:57:27 2001
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:42 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Shipping biomass
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20011101135924.009b4ea0@wgs1.btl.net>

 

Thanks for all the comments -- Tom, Phil and Daniel.

Daniel Dimiduk brings up as lot of valid suggestions -- especially
regarding leaching the ash content out.

Phil Marsh has some thoughtful comments regarding the stoves.

Tom Miles is right on top of this subject as usual. (I have inserted Tom's
reply into this message as well)

Here is one contribution I can make regarding feeding hopper "systems" -- a
little adaptation maybe -- but very little:

Joel Florian -- of Alaska -- originally supplied this Url:

http://www.burnchips.com/

You'll see some find examples of automated "chip" feeders there.

Regarding modern stove efficiencies --

We covered that as well a while back -- or at least I believe I posted some
urls in regards to this matter.

The new trick is putting a catalytic converter in the flue gas path -- and
thus gasifying -- getting better than 85% efficiencies.

http://www.condar.com/

You'll find out all about how and why there. Check out the FAQ page -- lots
of numbers there.

On to the hurricane Iris that swept through Belize one month ago. A very
concentrated and tight 140 mph cyclone. It missed my area by over 100
miles. But last week I traveled there with a relief organization. A swath
of jungle 30 miles wide by 60 miles long is "gone" -- like in hogged fuel.
Southern Belize -- the Toledo District -- "was" nothing but solid jungle
before Iris stamped there.

Must be many millions (billions??) of tons of biomass spread all about. And
we wonder just what kind of forest fire we will be having when dry season
comes round?

Right now -- as I type -- another hurricane -- Michelle -- is forming up
just off out coast. But word has it this one is for Florida -- with love --
etc -- from Belize.

Regarding leaching Bagasse to lower ash content. We have a pile of bagasse
with well over 1 million tons sitting outside the sugar factory in Tower
Hill. It looks like our last factory in Belize is headed for the scrap heap
-- after this years season. So what to do with that small mountain of Bagasse!

It probably is well leached bagasse by now -- I should be sending some one
some samples??

Anyone got a pelletizer and willing to travel?? What is Sweden paying per
ton?? What a nice little enterprise we could do here -- pelletizing bagasse
for export to Sweden.

Regarding our fire hazard --

One suggestion made to the Government of Belize was to immediately start
clearing fire breaks/roads in all that downed jungle. What better way than
using a wood chipper and pelletizing after! (We have no means at all to
clear those roads -- we are broke in here in Belize -- seriously broke)

Certainly -- Belize is not short of biomass at this time -- we are drowning
in it!

Probably will be making giant smoke clouds -- heading up through the US
mid-west -- by sometime in late March -- 2002.

Certainly -- at this time -- Belize must be the richest per capita country
of the entire planet for "felled" biomass! And certainly -- it will be
either all rotting or going up in smoke.

Lets see -- even one billion tons at $120 per ton --

As it happens -- our main highway for that area goes right through the
center of this mess with all kinds of feeder roads -- all still in
excellent condition.

Any "investers" left around these days??

Peter Singfield / Belize

At 10:31 AM 11/1/2001 -0800, you wrote:
>Peter:
>
>I cannot comment on bagasse as I have no experience there. The pellet stoves
>are specifically designed to burn pellets. You can buy one in any hardware
>store around here. Typically they come with a small built in hopper in which
>you dump a 50lb bag of pellets. There are numerous different designs for the
>combustion chambers and feeding of the pellets to the combustion zone. Most
>claim efficiencies similar to natural gas or fuel oil (about 85%). PFI has
>modified this idea a bit by providing a large outdoor hopper that can hold a
>ton (or tons) of fuel with a small auger in the bottom that provides a
>continuous fuel feed to you stove. This eliminates the consumer from the job
>of having to fill their stove manually and because of reduced packaging
>costs PFI can deliver the fuel cheaper. Tom has the fuel prices right. As a
>comparison a consumer would pay $10/GJ for natural gas, $.50/L for heating
>oil. And $.06/KwHr for electricity in this area.
>
>PFI is not the only Pellet producer in this area, Pinnacle Pellet in Quesnel
>also has a large modern plant and distributes all over western Canada.
>
>Phil Marsh
>Marsh Bros.
>Ph (250) 569-2795
>Fax (250) 569-2247
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Peter Singfield [mailto:snkm@btl.net]
>Sent: October 31, 2001 06:39
>To: gasification@crest.org
>Subject: RE: GAS-L: Shipping biomass
>
>
>Hi All;
>
>Would it be feasible to pelletize and market pellets from bagasse?? Bagasse
>is a high ash biomass product -- however.
>
>>Their truck keeps the hoppers filled with pellets and therefore the
>>end user finds this type of wood burning as handy as gas or electric heat.
>>No fuss, no mess.
>
>Interesting!! What kind of furnaces?? What kind of system??
>
>Peter Singfield / Belize
>
>
>
>At 06:12 AM 10/31/2001 -0800, you wrote:
>>Hi All:
>>
>>I reside just down the road from Prince George based pellet Flame Inc.
>These
>>are the folks that are shipping wood pellets to Sweden from BC. Before
>these
>>pellets reach the port of Vancouver to be loaded for shipping to Sweden
>they
>>must first be moved from 800KM inland where they are produced. The owner
>>tells me this distance makes the profitability borderline but it was his
>>only large market to get his business going. This company is also setting
>up
>>hopper/automatic fuel delivery systems for local commercial and residential
>>users. Their truck keeps the hoppers filled with pellets and therefore the
>>end user finds this type of wood burning as handy as gas or electric heat.
>>No fuss, no mess. With the development of this local market things are
>>looking up for PFI.
>>
>>Phil Marsh
>>Marsh Bros.
>>Ph (250) 569-2795
>>Fax (250) 569-2247
>
>
>-
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>
>Gasification List Moderator:
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>www.webpan.com/BEF
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>-
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>http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
>
At 07:48 AM 10/31/2001 -0800, you wrote:
>Peter et al.
>
>You can find the BC wood pellet story at http://www.pellet.org/
>
>Find more of the story at the Pellet Fuels Institute
>http://www.pelletheat.org/
>
>According to the latest PFI newsletter, that arrived yesterday, more than
>730,000 tons of wood pellets were manufactured in 2000-2001. Wood pellet
>appliance sales are about 40,000 per year (37,000 last year).
>
>Consumers pay $120/ton or so. Ex plant sales are usually about $60-$80/ton
>bulk. Straight operating costs are in the $15-$35/ton range without
>packaging and distribution.
>
>Wood pellet buyers are domestic consumers that are buying a "designer" fuel:
>dried and densified. Of course it makes a wonderful fuel. . .if you can
>afford it.
>
>Pelletizing bagasse is old art. There have been some substantial operations
>in the past (since the 1950s) that have failed when the market has gone. We
>made bagasse cubes as one of the tests in the Hawaii gasification project.
>Very nice fuel but probably not appropriate to most sugar mill
>circumstances. It's often best to burn it and generate steam and power on
>site.
>
>There are clearly transportation advantages to a fuel that is 480 kg/m3
>(30/lb dry/ft3), which approaches the specific density of the fiber,
>compared to one with
>105 kg/m3 (7 lb/ft3 dry). But it can cost up to $70/m3 to get the density.
>Energy consumed is 50-100 Hp/ton.
>
>The economic crossover between weight and volume used to be about 256 kg/m3
>(16 lb/ft3) in the US but payload weights have increased in various states
>so that density has probably increased slightly.Canada is known to "assist"
>those long hauls with subsidies.(For several years one client used tax
>incentives to haul hay from Saskatchewan to BC for export to Asia. When the
>subsidy ended he moved the plant closer to the port.)
>
>Tom
>
>Thomas R Miles
>TR Miles, Technical Consultants
>tmiles@trmiles.com
>503-292-0107
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Peter Singfield" <snkm@btl.net>
>To: <gasification@crest.org>
>Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 6:39 AM
>Subject: RE: GAS-L: Shipping biomass
>

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From LINVENT at aol.com Thu Nov 1 16:22:46 2001
From: LINVENT at aol.com (LINVENT@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:42 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Shipping biomass
Message-ID: <85.124dd2f7.29131709@aol.com>

Dear Peter et al,
The biomass will be higher in ash content as the organic fractions are
not necessarily leached, but oxidized and to some degree, leached. After a
period of time the only thing left will be ash portion of the biomass as the
rest will oxidize and be lost. Ash is a mixture of aluminum, iron, silica,
and are quite stable in relation to other components such as the organic
fractions.
Wish I had an easy answer for reviving the industry or making an
investment for recovery of the biomass. It will end up in the atmosphere as
CO2, some methane and the usual components and the water and soil as organic
compounds.

Sincerely,
Leland T. Taylor
President
Thermogenics Inc.
7100-2nd St. NW, Albuquerque, New Mexico 87107
phone 505-761-1454 fax 505-761-1456
Attached files are zipped and can be decompressed with <A
HREF="http://www.aladdinsys.com/expander/">www.aladdinsys.com/expander/ </A>

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From snkm at btl.net Thu Nov 1 19:51:09 2001
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:42 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Shipping biomass
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20011101184417.009b3a30@wgs1.btl.net>

 

At 04:22 PM 11/1/2001 EST, you wrote:
>Dear Peter et al,
> The biomass will be higher in ash content as the organic fractions are
>not necessarily leached, but oxidized and to some degree, leached. After a
>period of time the only thing left will be ash portion of the biomass as the
>rest will oxidize and be lost. Ash is a mixture of aluminum, iron, silica,
>and are quite stable in relation to other components such as the organic
>fractions.
> Wish I had an easy answer for reviving the industry or making an
>investment for recovery of the biomass. It will end up in the atmosphere as
>CO2, some methane and the usual components and the water and soil as organic
>compounds.
>
>
>Sincerely,
>Leland T. Taylor

Dear Tom T;

Of course -- how ignorant of me.

Now -- what can we do with a huge tonnage of hurricane wood??

This is mostly second growth jungle. Running a 15 year and more milpa
pattern. That is 15 years between slash and burnings.

 

From snkm at btl.net Thu Nov 1 20:41:05 2001
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:43 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Shipping biomass
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20011101193648.009be4a0@wgs1.btl.net>

7At 08:01 PM 11/1/2001 EST, you wrote:
>Peter,
> We can convert it to ethanol, diesel, gasoline, kerosene, power, DME,
you
>name it. Just write big checks. A great deal of deterioration would occur by
>the time a plant was built to process it, say 2-3 years. World Bank, IADB,
>NADBANK, Winrock, Ford, Rockefeller, or other good guy operations are the
>ones we should be talking to, not each other. They have the interest and
>funds to do this. Perhaps some save the rain forest group. I believe that
>there is interest in UK in this.
>
>Sincerely,
>Leland T. Taylor

OK Tom -- let's "kiss" it then. (Keep it simple and sweet)

Know anyone that would be interested in 24 in length dried wood loaded in a
container for -- saying -- $25.00 per ton??

Wonder how much could fit in a 20 foot container??

Let's see -- figure a cord of green hard wood at 5500 lbs.

Dry about 1/3 less -- so 3666 -- call that two tons then.

Cord is 4 times four times eight (128 cubic feet)

Container is 8 * 8 * 20 = 1280 ft

So ten cords to a container -- 20 ton.

now knock off 20% just to be sure --

16 ton per container.

Say $2000 US to move that to customer.

$2000/16 = $125 per ton!!

Nope -- that will not work either.

Well folks -- good lesson on the value of biomass -- even when it is there
for the taking -- and with extremely cheap labor -- it does not pay to take
it!!

Wonder how much it costs to move pellets from BC to Sweden??

And how much to truck it 800 miles to the port??

And process and pelletize it??

And make a profit??

Go on now --- something wrong here somewhere.

You take 20% off a pile of wood and you are left with solid wood.

Pellets that much denser??

Sawdust and shavings yes -- but stacked solid wood??

And we be half the distance!!

Wait till that pile of wood catches fire and smokes out central US -- as
the forest fires in Central America did 6 or so years back after burning
from an extended drought.

Well, at least we'll have a lot of good planting here after -- so all in
not a loss.

Looks like this is a loser Tom T -- onwards to other things ---

I never was good at begging from the major good guys -- if it can't make
profit standing on its own -- it is not going to work.

Peter / Belize

> President
> Thermogenics Inc.
>7100-2nd St. NW, Albuquerque, New Mexico 87107
>phone 505-761-1454 fax 505-761-1456
>Attached files are zipped and can be decompressed with <A
>HREF="http://www.aladdinsys.com/expander/">www.aladdinsys.com/expander/ </A>
>

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From CarlWik at aol.com Thu Nov 1 21:00:43 2001
From: CarlWik at aol.com (CarlWik@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:43 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Shipping biomass
Message-ID: <141.3f0bce9.29135820@aol.com>

Make the gas in Belize, convert it, and ship the higher value product.

If you can make the gas, maybe we can help with the product.

And if you get this, Hi Tom Taylor

In a message dated 11/1/2001 7:41:39 PM Central Standard Time, snkm@btl.net writes:

7At 08:01 PM 11/1/2001 EST, you wrote:
>Peter,
>    We can convert it to ethanol, diesel, gasoline, kerosene, power, DME,
you
>name it. Just write big checks. A great deal of deterioration would occur by
>the time a plant was built to process it, say 2-3 years. World Bank, IADB,
>NADBANK, Winrock, Ford, Rockefeller, or other good guy operations are the
>ones we should be talking to, not each other. They have the interest and
>funds to do this. Perhaps some save the rain forest group. I believe that
>there is interest in UK in this.
>
>Sincerely,
>Leland T. Taylor

OK Tom -- let's "kiss" it then. (Keep it simple and sweet)

Know anyone that would be interested in 24 in length dried wood loaded in a
container for -- saying -- $25.00 per ton??

Wonder how much could fit in a 20 foot container??

Let's see -- figure a cord of green hard wood at 5500 lbs.

Dry about 1/3 less -- so 3666 -- call that two tons then.

Cord is 4 times four times eight (128 cubic feet)

Container is 8 * 8 * 20 = 1280 ft

So ten cords to a container -- 20 ton.

now knock off 20% just to be sure --

16 ton per container.

Say $2000 US to move that to customer.

$2000/16 = $125 per ton!!

Nope -- that will not work either.

Well folks -- good lesson on the value of biomass -- even when it is there
for the taking -- and with extremely cheap labor -- it does not pay to take
it!!

Wonder how much it costs to move pellets from BC to Sweden??

And how much to truck it 800 miles to the port??

And process and pelletize it??

And make a profit??

Go on now --- something wrong here somewhere.

You take 20% off a pile of wood and you are left with solid wood.

Pellets that much denser??

Sawdust and shavings yes -- but stacked solid wood??

And we be half the distance!!

Wait till that pile of wood catches fire and smokes out central US -- as
the forest fires in Central America did 6 or so years back after burning
from an extended drought.

Well, at least we'll have a lot of good planting here after -- so all in
not a loss.

Looks like this is a loser Tom T -- onwards to other things ---

I never was good at begging from the major good guys -- if it can't make
profit standing on its own -- it is not going to work.

Peter / Belize

> President
> Thermogenics Inc.
>7100-2nd St. NW, Albuquerque, New Mexico 87107
>phone 505-761-1454 fax 505-761-1456
>Attached files are zipped and can be decompressed with >HREF="http://www.aladdinsys.com/expander/">www.aladdinsys.com/expander/

 

From Carefreeland at aol.com Fri Nov 2 06:17:39 2001
From: Carefreeland at aol.com (Carefreeland@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:43 2004
Subject: Fwd: GAS-L: Shipping biomass
Message-ID: <82.126facb0.2913daa6@aol.com>

Peter,
I forgot to post to gas-L.
Dan D.

To: snkm@btl.net
Subject: Re: GAS-L: Shipping biomass
From: Carefreeland@aol.com
Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 22:22:41 EST
Full-name: Carefreeland

Peter,
You have definitely got something here. I estimate 30-50 cords per acre
here in Ohio for 20 year rotation of "what grows back from cornfield." Which
usually consists of locust, ash, elm, and so on? This growth averages
conservatively about 3000 LB per cord. About 60 tons per acre dry weight.
In your environment, depending on the type of wood, 75 ton may even be a
little low because I'm sure the growth density is higher and certainly your
trees are bigger in 15 years than ours in 20. The soil is a factor too, but
so is all the rain. I estimate you may be 75-100 tons/acre sight unseen. If
the wood is very hard like oak you could add another 25 ton. So your figure
is comfortably conservative here. Then I liked your first figure better
because much of the timber is damaged and will die from infection anyhow,
particularly in your environment. 60X30 miles is 1800 sq. miles then
x640x75=86,400,000 tons. This number is VERY realistic.
I would look at this long term because you have no choice. Why don't you
cut roads as firebreaks first, then allow a CONTROLLED amount of several
things. 1. chipping for direct shipment. Call the large paper companies and
let them bid on tracts. 2. What you said, chip and pellitize. 3. Log the good
timber, and stack it well and dry for future sales. 4. Allow a controlled
amount of charcoaling for a future reserve. The emphasis here being on
controlled, because I haven't yet introduced my clean portable charcoal
makers yet. The old methods will be better than wildfire or methane from
slow decay.
This is not unprecedented. When I took a drive through hurricane Hugo's
path the damage was exactly what you described. 30 miles of F1-F2 tornado
damage equivalent. The paper companys already had holdings there. The
logging companies worked the area pretty good too running salvage operations.
The firewood cutters got the rest. It was still about what you described, a
five year operation.
Only charcoal will last well that long in your climate, everybody should
make a little for future fuel reserve. Maybe put 25% of the wood into each
area.
If some of the good wood is made into rough finished products, entire
industries could develop on this "subsidy" while the other woods grow back
for the future. The Mennonites here in Ohio, do quite well making cedar patio
furniture. If you stack the good big logs tight and high, and cover only the
top with some sort of cover such as banana leaves or other roofing, they
might make nice "bank accounts" for wood shops. Allow ventilation below too,
moisture comes up as well.
I'm sure many good logs will be used to rebuild homes.
As far as that mountain of "fuel" ? I wouldn't write it off yet without
sampling. If it is piled that high, it probably didn't get enough oxygen to
rot well, deep under the surface. I've seen sawdust piles last 20 years or
more. The environment becomes saturated with CO2 and Methane, and it might as
well be under oil or tar. The anaerobic conditions I described earlier,
depend on water for oxygen.
Well, good luck Peter, keep us posted.
Daniel Dimiduk

 

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From tombreed at home.com Fri Nov 2 08:21:46 2001
From: tombreed at home.com (Thomas Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:43 2004
Subject: Riser sleeve rigidizing
In-Reply-To: <14f.35507bc.291282d8@aol.com>
Message-ID: <008701c1639d$5fdb2fe0$18e5b618@lakwod3.co.home.com>

Dear Dan and all:

I had heard about the CO2 use with riser sleeves. I presume that the CO2
neutralizes the silica according to

Na2SiO3 + CO2 ==> SiO2 + Na2CO3

However this leaves sodium carbonate in the matrix and it would act as a
flux. Can probably be washed out.

Anyone know better.

Yours truly, TOM REED BEF

> Tom R.
> About those riser sleves. Is the "rigidisor" sodium silicate? I have
a
> buddie who casts Aluminum, and uses sodium silicate solution for a binder
in
> his sandmolds. He uses CO2 gas from a dry ice "melter" to cure the molds.
> (we know that dry Ice sublimes directly into CO2 gas, no liquid phase).
I
> know that sodium silicate is used extensively in fireproofing and is a
good
> thing to work with while experimenting on combustion.
> Dan Dimiduk
>
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From arnt at c2i.net Fri Nov 2 08:43:23 2001
From: arnt at c2i.net (Arnt Karlsen)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:43 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Shipping biomass
Message-ID: <3BE2A30C.678FE004@c2i.net>

On Thu, 01 Nov 2001 18:48:15 -0600,
Peter Singfield <snkm@btl.net> wrote in
<3.0.32.20011101184417.009b3a30@wgs1.btl.net>:

> Now -- what can we do with a huge tonnage of hurricane wood??
>
> This is mostly second growth jungle. Running a 15 year and more milpa
> pattern. That is 15 years between slash and burnings.
>
> From what I saw:
>
> Lots of wood 10 in diameter -- say 45 ft tall.
>
> Say and average of 8 in diameter -- 30 ft tall.
>
> Very dense. Large percentage hard woods.
>
> How many tons per square mile?? Anyone??
>
> Guessing -- 75 tons per acre??? (Please correct me!!)
>
> 640*75= 48,000 tons per square mile.
>
> Say a swath 15 miles wide by 30 miles long (I am quite sure that is well on
> the modest side)
>
> 15*30 = 450 sq.M * 48,000 = 21,600,000 tons.

..21,600,000 tons * 1.6 MWeh/ton * 180 US$/MWeh
= 6,220,800,000 US$... what's the problem? ;-)

> If we harvested that at a rate of 1250 tons per hour -- 10 hrs per day = 50
> years!!
>
> 12500 tons per day -- 1728 -- 4.73 years
>
> We got maybe five before bad rot. Make it 1500 ton per hour.

..about 2200 MWe. Should be paid down in say 3 years.
Several "small". How small do we want them?

> Local harvest would come in at $10 US per ton (present price of firewood here)
>
> We have unlimited labor to apply to this operation. They use machete and axe.

..they cut how much per hour? And they cost how much?

> How do we pelletize this?? From Chips or hogged wood??
>
> How much would it cost to do this -- prepare whole wood for the pellet
> machine?? How much per ton??
>
> What do you figure the price of pelletizing per ton would be here in Belize
> (electrical power = 18 cents US per kwh -- good place for some of your
> systems Tom -- just to run the pelletizers -- and the rough wood processing)
>
> What would the price be for this product dock side??
>
> Maybe -- just maybe ---
>
> 21 million ton * $60 ton (Only!!) = $1,260,000

..taking all this wood could yield about 10 million tons of gasoline.
Chop it, gasify it, Fischer-Tropsch-synthesize the gas made.

> Hey Tom (and all the rest of you guys out there looking for business) --
> worth investigating or not??
>
> This would certainly put this country back on its feet (250,000 population)
> and give something to do for the over 18,000 Kekchi Maya that live
> subsistence style in the Toledo district -- until they can have their
> forests back.
>
> A good job that does a lot of good for everyone concerned! A win-win-win
> situation!
>
> How do I contact the European community? Certainly -- they could help

..Andries?

> greatly in this matter by simply being a market for this product??

..EC? They are obsessed by the Great Savior Norwegian Methane Gas[Tm]
that farts out in about 60 years from now. Trow in the odd wind mill
and flap your green swan wings in joy.

> Andries -- Arnt -- what say?? Help some starving Maya Indians (our country
> is broke) -- be green (better pellets to CO2 than lots of methane from
> rotting) -- set back global warming by replacing coal with biomass.
>
> Your Company alone could save the entire country of Belize.
>
> But here is the crux of the matter -- how much would those pellets be worth??
>
> I could supply all the raw wood you needed -- delivered from up to 30 mile
> radius -- for a cost of around $20 US per ton and less (for closer)
>
> Would it be worth the processing into pellets and shipping to Europe??
>
> We have an excellent deep water port right there!! Big Creek is the name.
> This is where the large banana boats load up -- banana for Europe!
> (Unfortunately -- greater than 95% of that industry was destroyed in this
> hurricane)
>
> Excellent land at Big Creek for building a large wood processing plant/yard.

..any other industry there?

--
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;-)

Scenarios always come in sets of three:
best case, worst case, and just in case.

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From snkm at btl.net Fri Nov 2 09:35:15 2001
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:43 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Shipping biomass
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20011102080323.00983140@wgs1.btl.net>

 

Hi Daniel;

>
> Peter,
> You have definitely got something here. I estimate 30-50 cords per acre
>here in Ohio for 20 year rotation of "what grows back from cornfield."
Which
>usually consists of locust, ash, elm, and so on? This growth averages
>conservatively about 3000 LB per cord. About 60 tons per acre dry weight.
> In your environment, depending on the type of wood, 75 ton may even be a
>little low because I'm sure the growth density is higher and certainly your
>trees are bigger in 15 years than ours in 20. The soil is a factor too, but
>so is all the rain. I estimate you may be 75-100 tons/acre sight unseen.

I try to keep my estimates on the minus side. Also -- do not forget -- the
people harvesting will take "stick" down to one inch size if asked.

>If
>the wood is very hard like oak you could add another 25 ton.

We were paid at 5500 lbs per cord for rock maple pulp wood. And that still
floats in water. Most of the hard woods here sink in water.

So your figure
>is comfortably conservative here. Then I liked your first figure better
>because much of the timber is damaged and will die from infection anyhow,
>particularly in your environment. 60X30 miles is 1800 sq. miles then
>x640x75=86,400,000 tons. This number is VERY realistic.

Yes -- but like to stick with the low figures.

> I would look at this long term because you have no choice. Why don't you
>cut roads as firebreaks first, then allow a CONTROLLED amount of several
>things. 1. chipping for direct shipment. Call the large paper companies and
>let them bid on tracts. 2. What you said, chip and pellitize. 3. Log the
good
>timber, and stack it well and dry for future sales. 4. Allow a controlled
>amount of charcoaling for a future reserve. The emphasis here being on
>controlled, because I haven't yet introduced my clean portable charcoal
>makers yet. The old methods will be better than wildfire or methane from
>slow decay.

Remember the "Big-Top" presented to this list??

By: Alex English english@kingston.net

http://www.sterlingsolar.com/index.html

We could use a couple of thousand of those.

Actually -- Belize is "broke" -- there will be no internal action taken on
this situation. It could be feasible to convince the government here to
allow as many contractors as required to clean up this biomass "dump". But
as Tom T mentions -- how long would it all take?

> This is not unprecedented. When I took a drive through hurricane Hugo's
>path the damage was exactly what you described. 30 miles of F1-F2 tornado
>damage equivalent. The paper companys already had holdings there. The
>logging companies worked the area pretty good too running salvage
operations.
> The firewood cutters got the rest. It was still about what you
described, a
>five year operation.

Iris winds were 140 mph -- very concentrated eye -- when it made land fall.

> Only charcoal will last well that long in your climate, everybody should
>make a little for future fuel reserve. Maybe put 25% of the wood into each
>area.

Excellent idea!

> If some of the good wood is made into rough finished products, entire
>industries could develop on this "subsidy" while the other woods grow back
>for the future. The Mennonites here in Ohio, do quite well making cedar
patio
>furniture. If you stack the good big logs tight and high, and cover only
the
>top with some sort of cover such as banana leaves or other roofing, they
>might make nice "bank accounts" for wood shops. Allow ventilation below
too,
>moisture comes up as well.
> I'm sure many good logs will be used to rebuild homes.

It will not make a dent in that pile though.

> As far as that mountain of "fuel" ? I wouldn't write it off yet without
>sampling. If it is piled that high, it probably didn't get enough oxygen to
>rot well, deep under the surface. I've seen sawdust piles last 20 years or
>more. The environment becomes saturated with CO2 and Methane, and it might
as
>well be under oil or tar. The anaerobic conditions I described earlier,
>depend on water for oxygen.

It is piles at least 4e0 ft high -- probably 60 ft. Pile covers many acres.

The plant crushed 1.3 million tons per year and used roughly 1/3 of the
bagasse produced for "power" -- the rest being piled.

> Well, good luck Peter, keep us posted.
> Daniel Dimiduk
>

Right now we have a new monster off our door-step -- Michelle!!

Peter / Belize

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From snkm at btl.net Fri Nov 2 09:36:09 2001
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:43 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Shipping biomass
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20011102083128.00914e50@wgs1.btl.net>

 

Hello Harmon;

I cut and delivered a lot of pulpwood in my day. Rock maple -- they figured
that at 5500 lbs per cord at the Brown Company paper mill (Northern New
Hampshire)and we never complained about poor scale.

That wood still floats!!

Most of the hardwoods here sink if you through them in water.

True -- I estimate by eye the height -- and have to do that based on jungle
not mowed under. But stand by those heights -- as in trunk length.

Certainly -- numerous exceptions -- but to both sides of this guess.

The wood is totally twisted and woven together. The landscape is sharp low
hills with many valleys.

Some large flat valleys -- but pine ridge -- mostly pine. These may well be
over 60 ft tall though. But sparser than jungle "bush".

The Mennonites of Belize are presently well equipped for lumbering --
bulls, skidders, trucks -- the works.

Combine this with local "choppers" -- of which we have a large number --
there is no problem to harvest and deliver.

The problem is what to do with all that biomass -- if anything.

Keep thinking guys --

But I see no market in North America -- Europe -- probably.

Shipping is the killer -- makes no difference either -- might be cheaper to
Europe??

Remember those Mobark (spelling??) chipper rigs. 500 HP chipper mounted on
a trailer with an articulated boom log loader. Grapple skidder drops full
tree (branches and all) -- loader feeds it to the rolls -- every thing
chipped. 120 tons per hour.

Four tractor trailer rigs per hour. Or 3 if you load the way we used to.

Chips anyone??

Peter

At 07:58 PM 11/1/2001 -0600, you wrote:
>Peter Singfield wrote:
>
>> >From what I saw:
>>
>> Lots of wood 10 in diameter -- say 45 ft tall.
>>
>> Say and average of 8 in diameter -- 30 ft tall.
>>
>
> You really need to measure -- I've seen every so many write-ups about
>stands of trees "100' tall birches" or "200' tall white pines" and I've
logged
>plenty of both and the birches are never more than 50' and the white pines
125'
>at most.
>
>>
>> Very dense. Large percentage hard woods.
>>
>
> Sounds like an not quite mature aspen stand in northern MN.
>
>>
>> How many tons per square mile?? Anyone??
>>
>> Guessing -- 75 tons per acre??? (Please correct me!!)
>>
>
> If this were aspen -- about 45-50 tons per acre at best.
>
>But I have no idea what that species weighs per cubic foot. Aspen, even
green,
>isn't the heaviest wood in the world by a long shot, and dry it's quite
light.
> It's really pretty species dependent. If you knew what those trees
weighed
>per cubic foot we could come closer. I'm only comparing it to aspen
because aspen
>grows so dense.
>
>
>--
>Harmon Seaver, MLIS
>CyberShamanix
>Work 920-203-9633
>Home 920-233-5820
>hseaver@cybershamanix.com
>http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html
>
>
>

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From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Fri Nov 2 10:03:17 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:43 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Shipping biomass
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20011102083128.00914e50@wgs1.btl.net>
Message-ID: <3BE2B590.A5BF868D@cybershamanix.com>

Peter Singfield wrote:

> But I see no market in North America -- Europe -- probably.
>
> Shipping is the killer -- makes no difference either -- might be cheaper to
> Europe??
>
> Remember those Mobark (spelling??) chipper rigs. 500 HP chipper mounted on
> a trailer with an articulated boom log loader. Grapple skidder drops full
> tree (branches and all) -- loader feeds it to the rolls -- every thing
> chipped. 120 tons per hour.
>
> Four tractor trailer rigs per hour. Or 3 if you load the way we used to.
>
> Chips anyone??

I was working in northern MN just last year, and wanted to get some
hardwood chips to grow mushrooms on, and had a really hard time finding any.
When I lived up there before, there were all sorts of big chipping operations,
but apparantly there were some mill closings and the market crashed -- at least
according to the USFS people I talked to. I was rather amazed, to say the
least.
So perhaps you're right, there isn't much of a market in the US for chips.
I'm wondering if biomass pelletizing would revive this, but OTOH, corn is a
much cheaper heating fuel than wood pellets at the moment.

--
Harmon Seaver, MLIS
CyberShamanix
Work 920-203-9633
Home 920-233-5820
hseaver@cybershamanix.com
http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html

 

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From LINVENT at aol.com Fri Nov 2 10:25:56 2001
From: LINVENT at aol.com (LINVENT@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:43 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Shipping biomass
Message-ID: <54.1d4a284b.291414c2@aol.com>

Re: NM Wood,
Northern NM has one mill operating, in Espanola. One near Raton has been shut
down with hundreds of thousands of board feet of logs in the store yard. They
called me wanting something to do with the wood. At one time, there were 52
mills in NM. Not enough pricing for the wood, cost of labor, equipment etc.
too high to operate mills. Regulations and USFS pricing and terms for cutting
wood too costly.

Sincerely,
Leland T. Taylor
President
Thermogenics Inc.
7100-2nd St. NW, Albuquerque, New Mexico 87107
phone 505-761-1454 fax 505-761-1456
Attached files are zipped and can be decompressed with <A
HREF="http://www.aladdinsys.com/expander/">www.aladdinsys.com/expander/ </A>

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From LINVENT at aol.com Fri Nov 2 10:27:00 2001
From: LINVENT at aol.com (LINVENT@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:43 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Shipping biomass
Message-ID: <e6.1d99fe4d.29141515@aol.com>

Dear All,
As I told Peter, gasify it,

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From LINVENT at aol.com Fri Nov 2 10:31:26 2001
From: LINVENT at aol.com (LINVENT@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:43 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Shipping biomass
Message-ID: <c6.10d262c.2914161b@aol.com>

Dear All,
As I told Peter, gasify it, make liquid fuels and make money. Take 3
years to build a plant, get Rockefeller, Winrock, DOE or some well to do who
has concern about the CO2 from the decomposing biomass, and build a synthetic
fuels plant. It is cheaper than putting wells in the mideast and hauling
crude oil across the ocean and refining it.
Technology is not the issue, stupidity is.

 

Sincerely,
Leland T. Taylor
President
Thermogenics Inc.
7100-2nd St. NW, Albuquerque, New Mexico 87107
phone 505-761-1454 fax 505-761-1456
Attached files are zipped and can be decompressed with <A
HREF="http://www.aladdinsys.com/expander/">www.aladdinsys.com/expander/ </A>

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From snkm at btl.net Fri Nov 2 11:11:01 2001
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:43 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Shipping biomass
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20011102100322.00987a90@wgs1.btl.net>

At 10:30 AM 11/2/2001 EST, you wrote:
>Dear All,
> As I told Peter, gasify it, make liquid fuels and make money. Take 3
>years to build a plant, get Rockefeller, Winrock, DOE or some well to do who
>has concern about the CO2 from the decomposing biomass, and build a
synthetic
>fuels plant. It is cheaper than putting wells in the mideast and hauling
>crude oil across the ocean and refining it.
> Technology is not the issue, stupidity is.
>

Agreed Tom T. -- but I am not the person able to build that set up! I can
easily introduce anyone interested to the right people in government here
to get a fast and clear lane to doing such.

Agreed -- the technology does exist to do this. Further -- what an ideal
time and situation to set up the perfect tree plantation operation so that
this could continue on a permanent basis!

It would fit right in with the local Maya -- they could still have their
planting cycles.

This area "was" the world's largest producer of 100% organic Chocolate. 98%
wiped out now.

Before they can start over again (takes 3 to five years for the first crop)
they must clear that mess.

We used to get one major hurricane every 30 years here. We have had 3 in
the past four -- with one more big one brewing off our coasts right now!

And the US is in denial about global warming and its effects!!

People here about are believing this is "God" bringing an end to a sinful
world - -seriously!!

I tend to believe we are self destructing due to stupidity -- and in many
more ways than just one.

This series of "storms" has killed our economy. Wiping out 1/3 of our
tourism industry this time -- almost 1/2 last year with Keith.

Wiped out all our Northern rice crop last year -- over half of our total
production.

Wiped out all of our Southern rice this time.

Banana industry just blew away. Citrus is a bout 1/3 gone.

Sugar was dying natural death anyway.

Infrastructure damage is humongous -- we were just reaching the end of
repairs from last years event.

Now -- think it is going to get better next year??

Global warming is real -- never mind the reasons.

There will be no shortage of raw biomass here -- down and twisted on the
ground -- for many years to come!

A great time to start gasifying -- with unlimited supplies of biomass
available!

That Big Creek Port is 60 miles from Honduras (another source) and 25 miles
from Guatemala -- more source.

Though the hurricane hit Big Creek dead on -- none of the banana industry
shipping terminal buildings were damaged (large sheet metal/steel frame
sheds)-- or this excellent and well sheltered port facilities. So do not
worry about losing a processing plant.

Looking for a silver lining here folks --

Peter / Belize

>
>
>Sincerely,
>Leland T. Taylor
> President
> Thermogenics Inc.
>7100-2nd St. NW, Albuquerque, New Mexico 87107
>phone 505-761-1454 fax 505-761-1456
>Attached files are zipped and can be decompressed with <A
>HREF="http://www.aladdinsys.com/expander/">www.aladdinsys.com/expander/ </A>
>
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From A.Weststeijn at epz.nl Fri Nov 2 18:06:15 2001
From: A.Weststeijn at epz.nl (Weststeijn A)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:43 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Shipping biomass
Message-ID: <E1780666C205D211B6740008C728DBFE9F5225@sp0016.epz.nl>

Peter Singfiled writes about the downed wood in Belize:

> A good job that does a lot of good for everyone concerned! A win-win-win
> situation!
>
Is worth a look. The big advantage is that there is (according to Peter) an
ample supply within a reasonable distance (...up to 30 miles...) from an
operable port (...excellent deep water port with banana boats loading for
Europe...).

> How do I contact the European community? Certainly -- they could help
> greatly in this matter by simply being a market for this product??
>
I don't think the EU in Brussels provides a market as such. But that isn't
to say that players in the green market in the EU couldn't get together.
That might be worth another look.

> Andries -- Arnt -- what say?? Help some starving Maya Indians (our country
> is broke) -- be green (better pellets to CO2 than lots of methane from
> rotting) -- set back global warming by replacing coal with biomass.
>
I agree this is a win-win situation, doing two good things at the same time.

> Your Company alone could save the entire country of Belize.
>
...if we could get it in a shape that we can process it, that is.

> But here is the crux of the matter -- how much would those pellets be
> worth??
>
Don't think in terms of pellets. Those were introduced in the postings due
to the export of sawdust pellets from the lumber industry.
You primarily don't have sawdust, but solid wood in all shapes and sizes.
After the necessary field work you could settle on shipping logs, fist-size
lumps and chips.

Next to that, manufacture with relatively economic local labor: pelleted
sawdust and charcoaled bits and pieces.
Perhaps as local employment project?

Price in the end is a function of CV and "fit-for-end-use" condition.
A little early to discuss numbers.
I'll do some backchecking on the shipping costs.

> I could supply all the raw wood you needed -- delivered from up to 30 mile
> radius -- for a cost of around $20 US per ton and less (for closer)
> Would it be worth the processing into pellets and shipping to Europe??
>
I doubt about the idea of pellets, apart from what you possibly can make as
an extra from locally collected sawdust as part of the clean-up logging of
the larger logs.

> We have an excellent deep water port right there!! Big Creek is the name.
> This is where the large banana boats load up -- banana for Europe!
> (Unfortunately -- greater than 95% of that industry was destroyed in this
> hurricane)
> Excellent land at Big Creek for building a large wood processing
> plant/yard.
> Can this be done listers??
>
Perhaps the answer is in a combination of higher and lower added-value
products, to partially offset the "extra costs" of the logging field work.
The field work will be a "real cost" in this case, as opposed to the
situation where "avoided tipping charges" constitute a revenue.

I'll be back.
Andries

 

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From snkm at btl.net Fri Nov 2 18:17:17 2001
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:43 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Shipping biomass
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20011102171312.009db500@wgs1.btl.net>

 

Hello Arnt;

At 02:43 PM 11/2/2001 +0100, you wrote:
>On Thu, 01 Nov 2001 18:48:15 -0600,
>Peter Singfield <snkm@btl.net> wrote in
><3.0.32.20011101184417.009b3a30@wgs1.btl.net>:

Snipping my way through to the meat ---

>>
>> 15*30 = 450 sq.M * 48,000 = 21,600,000 tons.
>
>..21,600,000 tons * 1.6 MWeh/ton * 180 US$/MWeh
>= 6,220,800,000 US$... what's the problem? ;-)

OK -- your deriving $180 US per MWeh -- let me try to work that backwards.

First -- that is a high efficiency of conversion you are planning on --
around 40%.

But granting you all of that.

$180 US per MWeh times 1.6 MWeh per ton = $288 per ton of biomass landed.

Well, I certainly can see how they are making and shipping pellets from BC
Canada to Sweden and not lose their shirts!!

>>
>> We got maybe five before bad rot. Make it 1500 ton per hour.
>
>..about 2200 MWe. Should be paid down in say 3 years.
>Several "small". How small do we want them?

Say -- that is an excellent point you are making Arnt! Trouble is our peak
consumption here is 37 MWe.

>
>> Local harvest would come in at $10 US per ton (present price of firewood
here)
>>
>> We have unlimited labor to apply to this operation. They use machete and
axe.
>
>..they cut how much per hour? And they cost how much?

Presently -- here in Belize -- bread bakeries pay $10.00 US for 24 inch
length fire wood. People fight to sell at this price!! and that is
delivered to the Bakery!

Nothing by the hour Arnt -- all by the "job".

>>
>> What would the price be for this product dock side??
>>
>> Maybe -- just maybe ---
>>
>> 21 million ton * $60 ton (Only!!) = $1,260,000
>
>..taking all this wood could yield about 10 million tons of gasoline.
>Chop it, gasify it, Fischer-Tropsch-synthesize the gas made.

First off -- missing 3 zeros on that dollar number.

Should be:

$1,260,000,000

As in slightly more than 1.25 billion US dollars -- at $60 per ton.

Technically your right about Fischer-Tropsch process being applied to this
problem. But do we have the time?? and who has the money to do this??

>>
>> Excellent land at Big Creek for building a large wood processing
plant/yard.
>
>..any other industry there?

Was a large banana industry -- but that is gone right now. Not the
buildings so much as all the banana plants!

Peter

>
>--
>..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;-)
>
> Scenarios always come in sets of three:
> best case, worst case, and just in case.
>
>
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From snkm at btl.net Fri Nov 2 19:03:12 2001
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:43 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Shipping biomass
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20011102175832.009d8ac0@wgs1.btl.net>

 

Hi Andries!!

Getting to the meat of your message.

>After the necessary field work you could settle on shipping logs, fist-size
>lumps and chips.

The very best would be logs (lenghts of wood) and 24 inch firewood. Landed
at the port for $20 -- maybe $25 per ton.

 

From arnt at c2i.net Fri Nov 2 19:56:54 2001
From: arnt at c2i.net (Arnt Karlsen)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:43 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Shipping biomass
Message-ID: <3BE340E8.56905439@c2i.net>

On Fri, 02 Nov 2001 17:14:27 -0600,
Peter Singfield <snkm@btl.net> wrote in
<3.0.32.20011102171312.009db500@wgs1.btl.net>:

> Hello Arnt;
>
> At 02:43 PM 11/2/2001 +0100, you wrote:
> >On Thu, 01 Nov 2001 18:48:15 -0600,
> >Peter Singfield <snkm@btl.net> wrote in
> ><3.0.32.20011101184417.009b3a30@wgs1.btl.net>:
>
> Snipping my way through to the meat ---
>
> >>
> >> 15*30 = 450 sq.M * 48,000 = 21,600,000 tons.
> >
> >..21,600,000 tons * 1.6 MWeh/ton * 180 US$/MWeh
> >= 6,220,800,000 US$... what's the problem? ;-)
>
> OK -- your deriving $180 US per MWeh -- let me try to work that backwards.

..your 18 US cent per kWeh.

> First -- that is a high efficiency of conversion you are planning on --
> around 40%.

..yup.

> But granting you all of that.
>
> $180 US per MWeh times 1.6 MWeh per ton = $288 per ton of biomass landed.
>
> Well, I certainly can see how they are making and shipping pellets from BC
> Canada to Sweden and not lose their shirts!!

..is what the wood is worth as electricity at 18 cent/kWeh.
Not what you get from your pellets buyers. For one, they
too like a profit, they have a furnace etc to pay off etc.

> >> We got maybe five before bad rot. Make it 1500 ton per hour.
> >
> >..about 2200 MWe. Should be paid down in say 3 years.
> >Several "small". How small do we want them?
>
> Say -- that is an excellent point you are making Arnt! Trouble is our peak
> consumption here is 37 MWe.

..so we cook and ship "Maya Gasoline[Tm]", too.
Besides, Belize has grid neighbors?

..start setting up 1 MWe plants around?

> >> Local harvest would come in at $10 US per ton (present price of firewood
> here)
> >>
> >> We have unlimited labor to apply to this operation. They use machete and
> axe.
> >
> >..they cut how much per hour? And they cost how much?
>
> Presently -- here in Belize -- bread bakeries pay $10.00 US for 24 inch
> length fire wood. People fight to sell at this price!! and that is
> delivered to the Bakery!

..10 US $ per cord? How much time do the average
man use to chop this wood?

> Nothing by the hour Arnt -- all by the "job".

..ok. How much is the _average_annual_ salary/wage in Belize?
Give me a wee hint of an idea of labor cost. Needed for any
labor intensive thing to do on borrowed money.

..banks want parameters they understand and can evaluate and
can led to believe they can act upon. I _cannot_ borrow money
without them. Belizean use of those numbers is, as you say,
_optional_. Just skin that darn cat _one_ way or another.

> >> What would the price be for this product dock side??
> >>
> >> Maybe -- just maybe ---
> >>
> >> 21 million ton * $60 ton (Only!!) = $1,260,000
> >
> >..taking all this wood could yield about 10 million tons of gasoline.
> >Chop it, gasify it, Fischer-Tropsch-synthesize the gas made.
>
> First off -- missing 3 zeros on that dollar number.
>
> Should be:
>
> $1,260,000,000
>
> As in slightly more than 1.25 billion US dollars -- at $60 per ton.

..and word is, we're talking ~80 million tons? ;-)

> Technically your right about Fischer-Tropsch process being applied to this
> problem. But do we have the time?? and who has the money to do this??

..5 years. Then the Maya you mention may want to keep selling wood.
Fischer-Tropsch barge, anyone? Funds, anyone?

> >> Excellent land at Big Creek for building a large wood processing
> plant/yard.
> >
> >..any other industry there?
>
> Was a large banana industry -- but that is gone right now. Not the
> buildings so much as all the banana plants!
>
--
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;-)

Scenarios always come in sets of three:
best case, worst case, and just in case.

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From Carefreeland at aol.com Sat Nov 3 05:25:05 2001
From: Carefreeland at aol.com (Carefreeland@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:43 2004
Subject: Riser sleeve rigidizing
Message-ID: <43.1188a38.29151ff5@aol.com>

Tom,
I've spoken to my foundryman friend. He couldn't shed much light on the
question asked. He did tell me this.
Riser sleeves are used to hold excess molten metal on the surface of the
mold to enable complete filling of the mold as the metal cools and shrinks.
Rigidizer I believe, is used for iron to help support the sleeve at high
temperatures, near F 3000.
I had just missed a heat of aluminum being poured by a day. All of the
molds (known as flasks) still had sand and fresh castings in them.
Zirconium sand is used to cool a large part of a casting evenly with a
smaller part in the normal sand. The zirconium draws the heat out. He said
something about using zirconium powder sprinkled over the metal in the riser
to cool the metal there too.
I asked him to call me before the next heat was poured. He didn't know
when that would be. He just works job to job. I will return to watch the
molds being "shaken out" soon. I am eager to see the finished product.
The system he uses runs #1 fuel oil for his Aluminum casting. I can see
doing this quiet easily with a very clean woodgas fired furnace. If anyone
needs a custom aluminum casting, this man can put it on his agenda.
All for now,
Daniel Dimiduk

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From snkm at btl.net Sat Nov 3 08:26:42 2001
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:43 2004
Subject: GAS-L: modified annual weather patterns??
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20011103070829.0098c8a0@wgs1.btl.net>

 

>One bad year does not prove global warming, for goodness' sake.

Excellent point!!

We went from an average of one hurricane every 30 years to three majors and
one tropical storm hit in the last four years. (Mitch, Keith, Iris -- storm
Chantal)

Not counting close passes -- like we may be having with Michelle at
present. (Or one more heavy strike)

This year alone we have had Chantal and Iris -- direct hits!! And now
Michelle cruising for a bruising out there.

Further, we are hotter in the summer -- and get this -- colder in the winter.

Let's not call this global warming -- just call it modified annual weather
patterns??

Sure -- next year it will get back to the normal once in 30 years -- ya!
Thanks for pointing out the error of my judgement.

Peter / Belize

At 10:47 AM 11/3/2001 +0800, you wrote:
>
>
>Peter Singfield wrote:
>
>> This area "was" the world's largest producer of 100% organic Chocolate. 98%
>> wiped out now.
>>
>> Before they can start over again (takes 3 to five years for the first crop)
>> they must clear that mess.
>>
>> We used to get one major hurricane every 30 years here. We have had 3 in
>> the past four -- with one more big one brewing off our coasts right now!
>>
>> And the US is in denial about global warming and its effects!!
>
>One bad year does not prove global warming, for goodness' sake.
>
>Reminds me of 1969, and my French neighbor solemnly warning me that the
>bad wine vintage was due to American moon rockets making holes in the
>sky.
>
>If there's one thing climate does consistently, it's change. When I was
>8 or 9 we had record snowfalls in New England, and sure enough, people
>were talking Ice Age. The trick climatologists are still trying to
>master is separating long-term from short-term trends. THEN comes the
>fun of trying to determine who or what is responsible for the trend.
>
>Marc de Piolenc
>
>
>

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From tombreed at home.com Sat Nov 3 09:37:59 2001
From: tombreed at home.com (Thomas Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:43 2004
Subject: Gasifier for casting
In-Reply-To: <43.1188a38.29151ff5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <010f01c1646f$64e59700$18e5b618@lakwod3.co.home.com>

Dear Dan and All:

I first learned about riser sleeves for insulation from my friend and
occasional co-author, Agua Das, (das@welcomehome.org; 303 237 3579).

He has also developed a simple "up-down" biomass gasifier for firing bronze
and he regularly uses it at Rennaisance Festivals. Write him for details
(or ask me).

Yours truly, TOM REED

Yours truly, TOM REED
Dr. Thomas Reed
The Biomass Energy Foundation
1810 Smith Rd., Golden, CO 80401
303 278 0558;
tombreed@home.com; www.woodgas.com
----- Original Message -----
From: <Carefreeland@aol.com>
To: <tombreed@home.com>; <gasification@crest.org>; <stoves@crest.org>
Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2001 3:24 AM
Subject: Re: Riser sleeve rigidizing

> Tom,
> I've spoken to my foundryman friend. He couldn't shed much light on
the
> question asked. He did tell me this.
> Riser sleeves are used to hold excess molten metal on the surface of
the
> mold to enable complete filling of the mold as the metal cools and
shrinks.
> Rigidizer I believe, is used for iron to help support the sleeve at
high
> temperatures, near F 3000.
> I had just missed a heat of aluminum being poured by a day. All of
the
> molds (known as flasks) still had sand and fresh castings in them.
> Zirconium sand is used to cool a large part of a casting evenly with a
> smaller part in the normal sand. The zirconium draws the heat out. He
said
> something about using zirconium powder sprinkled over the metal in the
riser
> to cool the metal there too.
> I asked him to call me before the next heat was poured. He didn't
know
> when that would be. He just works job to job. I will return to watch the
> molds being "shaken out" soon. I am eager to see the finished product.
> The system he uses runs #1 fuel oil for his Aluminum casting. I can
see
> doing this quiet easily with a very clean woodgas fired furnace. If
anyone
> needs a custom aluminum casting, this man can put it on his agenda.
> All for now,
> Daniel Dimiduk

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From hauserman at corpcomm.net Sat Nov 3 10:05:43 2001
From: hauserman at corpcomm.net (Hauserman)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:43 2004
Subject: GAS-L: "Huricane Wood"
Message-ID: <000a01c16479$365a6a00$eb8ab1d8@Hauserman>

 

Hi All!

I just resubscribed here, after
a long disconnection. In last weeks's discussion, I was impressed by 
someone's estimate of the energy potential of downed trees in major
storms.  It was  quite credible but - nation-wide - probably
quite low. 

FYI:   In most years lately, FEMA 
(Federal Emergency Management Agency) spends  impressive millions on
collection and disposal - usually by burying  - of trees downed by 
tornados,  huricanes and/or winter ice storms. I see a great
need/opportunity for some portable collection system, to use this incredibly
wasted resource in some/any kind of temporary, semi-mobile  gasifier-power
systems.  There is an individual or small group within FEMA 
considering this, but I don't know on what level of urgency.  Have any of
you made contact with FEMA about this???






Bill
Hauserman

From snkm at btl.net Sat Nov 3 10:07:34 2001
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:43 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Gasifier for casting
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20011103085924.009885d0@wgs1.btl.net>

 

Dear Tom R and all:

You can't leave us hanging like this -- more on the up-down foundry furnace!!

PLEASE

Peter / Belize

At 06:56 AM 11/3/2001 -0700, you wrote:
>Dear Dan and All:
>
>I first learned about riser sleeves for insulation from my friend and
>occasional co-author, Agua Das, (das@welcomehome.org; 303 237 3579).
>
>He has also developed a simple "up-down" biomass gasifier for firing bronze
>and he regularly uses it at Rennaisance Festivals. Write him for details
>(or ask me).
>
>Yours truly, TOM REED
>
>
>Yours truly, TOM REED
> Dr. Thomas Reed
> The Biomass Energy Foundation
> 1810 Smith Rd., Golden, CO 80401
>303 278 0558;
>tombreed@home.com; www.woodgas.com
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <Carefreeland@aol.com>
>To: <tombreed@home.com>; <gasification@crest.org>; <stoves@crest.org>
>Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2001 3:24 AM
>Subject: Re: Riser sleeve rigidizing
>
>
>> Tom,
>> I've spoken to my foundryman friend. He couldn't shed much light on
>the
>> question asked. He did tell me this.
>> Riser sleeves are used to hold excess molten metal on the surface of
>the
>> mold to enable complete filling of the mold as the metal cools and
>shrinks.
>> Rigidizer I believe, is used for iron to help support the sleeve at
>high
>> temperatures, near F 3000.
>> I had just missed a heat of aluminum being poured by a day. All of
>the
>> molds (known as flasks) still had sand and fresh castings in them.
>> Zirconium sand is used to cool a large part of a casting evenly with a
>> smaller part in the normal sand. The zirconium draws the heat out. He
>said
>> something about using zirconium powder sprinkled over the metal in the
>riser
>> to cool the metal there too.
>> I asked him to call me before the next heat was poured. He didn't
>know
>> when that would be. He just works job to job. I will return to watch the
>> molds being "shaken out" soon. I am eager to see the finished product.
>> The system he uses runs #1 fuel oil for his Aluminum casting. I can
>see
>> doing this quiet easily with a very clean woodgas fired furnace. If
>anyone
>> needs a custom aluminum casting, this man can put it on his agenda.
>> All for now,
>> Daniel Dimiduk
>
>
>-
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>
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>-
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>http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
>
>

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From snkm at btl.net Sat Nov 3 10:22:27 2001
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:43 2004
Subject: GAS-L: "Hurricane Wood"
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20011103091935.00990100@wgs1.btl.net>

 

Hi Bill;

Yes -- the perfect plan -- the business opportunity of the century!!

A deep sea barge factory that can be positioned in short order to clean up
Hurricane aftermaths.

Gasify biomass into liquid fuel -- preferably ethanol -- which carries such
a high value presently.

We are no longer in a position to squander such megaton "wind-Falls". There
is every incentive to utilize such material!

And by the looks of things -- may need more than one set-up in operation.

Call them portable oil wells??

Further -- they should be quite profitable for the operator -- as well as
serving a useful purpose to all of humanity.

Certainly -- a barge such as that showing up in Belize at this time would
solve our serious unemployment problem -- a common side effect of any
massive hurricane strike.

This would go such a long ways to easing the economic turmoil involved in
post hurricane recovery.

How does it go??

Give a man food and he eats for one day.

Give him a plow and he eats for ever.

We are wasting resources during a time when we must not waste anything!

Word is that huge amounts of money are circulating with no place to go. Now
here is a solid investment proposal.

Peter / Belize

At 09:06 AM 11/3/2001 -0600, you wrote:
>>>>
Hi All! I just resubscribed here, after a long disconnection. In last
weeks's discussion, I was impressed by someone's estimate of the energy
potential of downed trees in major storms. It was quite credible but -
nation-wide - probably quite low. FYI: In most years lately, FEMA
(Federal Emergency Management Agency) spends impressive millions on
collection and disposal - usually by burying - of trees downed by
tornados, huricanes and/or winter ice storms. I see a great
need/opportunity for some portable collection system, to use this
incredibly wasted resource in some/any kind of temporary, semi-mobile
gasifier-power systems. There is an individual or small group within FEMA
considering this, but I don't know on what level of urgency. Have any of
you made contact with FEMA about this???
Bill Hauserman

 

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From english at adan.kingston.net Sun Nov 4 13:22:49 2001
From: english at adan.kingston.net (*.English)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:43 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Re: Gasifier for casting
In-Reply-To: <3BE417D2.D6EC1D5E@cybershamanix.com>
Message-ID: <200111041922.fA4JMe402290@adan.kingston.net>

 

The small, up-down Das-ifier has an open top, for fuel loading
(apple juice can cylinder tightly inserted into the top of a paint
can lid). The char builds up on a grate in the bottom of the paint
can, forming a mound extending up to the bottom of the apple juice
can. Air is drawn in the top and bottom. You have hot glowing char
turning to ash on the grate ( air up), and hot glowing wood turning
into char at the top of the mound (air down). Gasses exit out
the side at the top of the paint can to a valved tee for secondary
combustion air, and then a compressed air ejector to provide the
suction.
Point it where you will.

Alex English

 

> Tom;
> Could you tell us more about his gasifier? I tried emailing him, but the
> address bounced.
>
>
> Thomas Reed wrote:
>
> > Dear Dan and All:
> >
> > I first learned about riser sleeves for insulation from my friend and
> > occasional co-author, Agua Das, (das@welcomehome.org; 303 237 3579).
> >
> > He has also developed a simple "up-down" biomass gasifier for firing bronze
> > and he regularly uses it at Rennaisance Festivals. Write him for details
> > (or ask me).
>
> --
> Harmon Seaver, MLIS
> CyberShamanix
> Work 920-203-9633
> Home 920-233-5820
> hseaver@cybershamanix.com
> http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html
>
>
>
> -
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From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Sun Nov 4 13:52:05 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:43 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Gasification of Paper
Message-ID: <3BE58E31.5E9F4D78@cybershamanix.com>

I've been looking in the archives for info on the gasification of
paper and cardboard, but not finding much (actually I get tons of things
on "papers about gasification"). I'm sure it's been tried, put probably
not on a small scale. No doubt you can densify it in some way, and, as
much as I'd love to have one of those Shimada units, they're a bit out
of reach at the moment. Are there any lower end solutions for
densification? Something more than hand making them I mean -- perhaps
running the papers/magazines/cardboard thru a hammermill and then...??

--
Harmon Seaver, MLIS
CyberShamanix
Work 920-203-9633
Home 920-233-5820
hseaver@cybershamanix.com
http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html

 

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From jerry5335 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 4 20:24:17 2001
From: jerry5335 at yahoo.com (jerry dycus)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:43 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Gasification of Paper
In-Reply-To: <3BE58E31.5E9F4D78@cybershamanix.com>
Message-ID: <20011105012406.11562.qmail@web14007.mail.yahoo.com>

Hi Harmon and All,
How about wetting it into a 2" or so mass
and set them out to dry in the sun or blown air. Then
break/cut them to any size you want.
Or you could hand press the mass into a mold and
by making a simple lever hand press to get most of the
water out then set them out to dry. Reuse the water on
your next batch.
The problem with burning paper comes from the
ash sheets keeping O2 from getting to the fuel.
Maybe making bricks this way may help will
solve the problems of using paper for fuel, producer
and DD gas making.
Some of the clay and other fillers will fall
out in the wash.
If anyone does this or has already done it I'd
like to hear what happened and how the ash behaved.
It may be a cheap fireplace, boiler fuel source.
The beauty if this works a person with a tub
and a $10 materials hand press could process several
hundred lbs an hr.
A machine that makes these would be very
simple, Just squirt, press and flop it out of the
press.
jerry dycus
--- Harmon Seaver <hseaver@cybershamanix.com> wrote:
> I've been looking in the archives for info on
> the gasification of
> paper and cardboard, but not finding much (actually
> I get tons of things
> on "papers about gasification"). I'm sure it's been
> tried, put probably
> not on a small scale. No doubt you can densify it in
> some way, and, as
> much as I'd love to have one of those Shimada units,
> they're a bit out
> of reach at the moment. Are there any lower end
> solutions for
> densification? Something more than hand making them
> I mean -- perhaps
> running the papers/magazines/cardboard thru a
> hammermill and then...??
>
> --
> Harmon Seaver, MLIS
> CyberShamanix
> Work 920-203-9633
> Home 920-233-5820
> hseaver@cybershamanix.com
> http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html
>
>
>
> -
> Gasification List Archives:
>
http://www.crest.org/discussion/gasification/current/
>
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> www.webpan.com/BEF
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>

__________________________________________________
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From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Sun Nov 4 22:15:27 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:44 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Gasification of Paper
In-Reply-To: <20011105012406.11562.qmail@web14007.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3BE6042A.E18AEAB1@cybershamanix.com>

Well, that's a bit more primitive than what I was looking for.
There must be a smaller screw press or piston press available that would
do this. I was looking at the oil screw presses made in Sweden and
thinking perhaps they could be adapted, and then you'd be able to make
oil and pellets.
I have found a couple of papers on the subject on one of the other
list's archives -- guess you really need to search all of crest.org, not
just the stove and gas-l archives. Anyway, they're fairly lengthy,
hopefully they'll suggest something in between the Shimada and hand
labor.

jerry dycus wrote:

> Hi Harmon and All,
> How about wetting it into a 2" or so mass
> and set them out to dry in the sun or blown air. Then
> break/cut them to any size you want.
> Or you could hand press the mass into a mold and
> by making a simple lever hand press to get most of the
> water out then set them out to dry. Reuse the water on
> your next batch.
> The problem with burning paper comes from the
> ash sheets keeping O2 from getting to the fuel.
> Maybe making bricks this way may help will
> solve the problems of using paper for fuel, producer
> and DD gas making.
> Some of the clay and other fillers will fall
> out in the wash.
> If anyone does this or has already done it I'd
> like to hear what happened and how the ash behaved.
> It may be a cheap fireplace, boiler fuel source.
> The beauty if this works a person with a tub
> and a $10 materials hand press could process several
> hundred lbs an hr.
> A machine that makes these would be very
> simple, Just squirt, press and flop it out of the
> press.
>

--
Harmon Seaver, MLIS
CyberShamanix
Work 920-203-9633
Home 920-233-5820
hseaver@cybershamanix.com
http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html

 

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From A.Weststeijn at epz.nl Mon Nov 5 06:54:03 2001
From: A.Weststeijn at epz.nl (Weststeijn A)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:44 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Shipping biomass
Message-ID: <E1780666C205D211B6740008C728DBFE9F5228@sp0016.epz.nl>

Hi Peter,

> >After the necessary field work you could settle on shipping logs,
> fist-size
> >lumps and chips.
>
> The very best would be logs (lenghts of wood) and 24 inch firewood. Landed
> at the port for $20 -- maybe $25 per ton.
>
That's rather stiff, considering all the additional costs still on top of
that.

> From there you could either pre-process it (chips??) or load it bulk.
>
Either way, its takes considerable additional costs to process it to the
point (i.e. shape) where it can be fired.

And don''t believe that the "european scene" for green kWh's has a pot of
gold at the end of the rainbow.
In that respect, I don't recognize the $ 180,-/MWh quoted (by Arnt?)
I rather think in terms of $ 50,- to $ 60,- /MWh (green), in bulk.
That's still a factor 2 to 3 higher than "regular" MWh's.

There is a huge difference between day and night prices, contracted and spot
prices etc.
For larger volumes one has to average that out.

A note for the Listers generating their own green power (as substitute
power):
you can't compare the bulk green generation price levels with what you are
used to paying your utility on your own doorstep. The bulk generation prices
are way, way lower than what you see as charges on your private bill.

> >Perhaps the answer is in a combination of higher and lower added-value
> >products, to partially offset the "extra costs" of the logging field
> work.
> >The field work will be a "real cost" in this case, as opposed to the
> >situation where "avoided tipping charges" constitute a revenue.
>
> Good point. What we really need is the price this material would be valued
> at landed at your plant (or any other interested party)
>
Correct. I'll see if I can come up with a price "loaded on board" in port in
Belize since that takes some contacts.

> From that we can deduct supplying, shipping, and any processing -- and see
> if we still have a shirt left?
>
The shipping can be solved.
The processing is another matter.
No basic problem to import on a small scale and process it at our end (if
the economics pan out).
The main question would be "to size" the operation both ends.

As for the idea to synthesize wood gas into liquids:
Looks to me that this is easier said than done (in reality, in Belize).
Within the next few years a pilot plant might turn up somewhere in the
western world, but sizable production in a region as Belize in, say, 3 to 4
years ..... I doubt it.
I've seen the speed of development of coal gasification and of large scale
wood gasification. If that is any indication, the large sized
Fischer-Tropsch plant on locally produced wood gas might realistically not
make it in that period.
I am not an expert on catalyst, but I bet there is going to be a snag
somewhere.

Royal Dutch/Shell started to look into this recently, together with the R&D
organization ECN (known from the Phyllis data base).
http://www.ecn.nl/nwsbrf/article/0048.html
Sorry, this news flash dated Ocober 30th, 2001 is available only in Dutch,
but shows schematic, and the word diesel in universal.
Also, the news flash emphasizes the need for gas cleaning before synthesis.
Perhaps that somebody form ECN (who, I know, are reading this List) can
comment on the time frame of the development as foreseen.
Can't find anything on this on the Shell Renewables site
http://www.shell.com/rw-br/directory/0,6125,33954,00.html

As far as reliable large scale wood gasification is concerned, with
industrially meaningful long uninterrupted runs .... up till now only if the
tars can be accepted as part of the producer gas.

So, my question to the List would be: to what degree is Fischer-Tropsch
synthesis sensitive to tars from biomass gasification?

> Co-firing any coal fired power plant with biomass such as this is a huge
> plus for greenness -- true -- or not true?
>
Very true -- and we do it, in reality (as are others).
And I personally believe that substituting coal is one of the worthwhile
goals to work on. It really makes a differs in the CO2 equation, since the
amount of coal fired for electricity production world wide, is huge. In the
US alone 1050 million tons/year. Now, take a small percentage of that...
And then consider the enormous potential for fast growing economies like
India and China, also greatly depending on coal based electricity.
Apart from that, spreading this valuable resource out over more generations
is anyhow a responsible thing to do.

> And it certainly would put so many people to work here in Belize!
>
That makes it worthwhile trying to link green power and improving local
standards of living.

best regards,
Andries

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From A.Weststeijn at epz.nl Mon Nov 5 07:28:27 2001
From: A.Weststeijn at epz.nl (Weststeijn A)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:44 2004
Subject: GAS-L: "Hurricane Wood"
Message-ID: <E1780666C205D211B6740008C728DBFE9F5229@sp0016.epz.nl>

On floating barge based wood-to liquids plants Peter writes:

> Yes -- the perfect plan -- the business opportunity of the century!!
> A deep sea barge factory that can be positioned in short order to clean up
> Hurricane aftermaths.
> Gasify biomass into liquid fuel -- preferably ethanol -- which carries
> such
> a high value presently.
>
Although this is getting a bit off topic -- since not yet ready to go within
the next few years -- I like to make two observations:

1 - next to wood gasification the floating barge concept could very well be
applied to other biomass upgrading processes, like flash pyrolysis and HTU
(both making liquids).

2 - the large scale barge concept has been worked out in the past for the
cellulosis plant operated in Brazil (built in Japan, owed by a US tycoon),
the justification was in avoiding construction in the middle of nowhere

and for the barge mounted nuclear power plant design by Westinghouse (in
the seventies, worked out in great detail), the justification was in
costprice cutting through conveyor belt production.

Large diesel generator floating power plants have recently been built and
installed from Japan (by Mitsubishi, I believe), justification was -as I
recall- in speed of delivery, next to price.

This idea of barge mounted operation certainly has merit (in fact, opens up
many options), but will need to wait for the availability of a sufficient
degree of "matured" and "scaled-up" biomass conversion technology.

Andries

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From tombreed at home.com Mon Nov 5 09:13:55 2001
From: tombreed at home.com (Thomas Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:44 2004
Subject: Gasifier casting furnace
In-Reply-To: <3BE41774.FFA3D4B3@home.com>
Message-ID: <000801c165fa$f41aa1e0$18e5b618@lakwod3.co.home.com>

Dear All:

I have been sitting on this too long...

My friend Agua Das uses a simple gasifier made from a paint can and a coffee
can to melt bronze in his Rennaisance Festival casting demonstrations. The
power source is a used refrigerator compressor operated as an ejector.
Burns any old biomass.

See enclosure if interested,

Yours truly, TOM REED

I am
Dr. Thomas Reed
The Biomass Energy Foundation
1810 Smith Rd., Golden, CO 80401
303 278 0558;
tombreed@home.com; www.woodgas.com
----- Original Message -----
From: <fraction3@home.com>
To: "Thomas Reed" <tombreed@home.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2001 9:12 AM
Subject: gasifing for casting furnace?

> Hi Tom,
>
> In burning out my furnace it was amazing to see that
> overabundance of wood gas come out the top with a 8' high
> beautifully pure blue flame. Sure would like to know the
> details of a working gasifier for feeding a metal
> smelter/furnace. I have one for 70 lb pours of aluminum,
> would your buddies unit be roughly scaled to 55 gallon
> furnace by chance, or would a rescaling be necessary?
> If you have photos or diagrams I could sure use them.
>

DASIFIER.doc

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For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
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From Carl.Carley at eml.ericsson.se Mon Nov 5 09:26:28 2001
From: Carl.Carley at eml.ericsson.se (Carl Carley (EML))
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:44 2004
Subject: GAS-L: RE: Gasifier casting furnace
Message-ID: <BBB80FB03D54D51192DA0002A56B02480573BD@EUKBANT103>

Tom,
Interesting diagram but I cant quite see how the fridge pump fits in, are you drawing the gas (very hot) through the pump then into the furnace area?

Carl

-----Original Message-----
From: Thomas Reed [mailto:tombreed@home.com]
Sent: 05 November 2001 13:08
To: fraction3@home.com; gasification; Stoves
Subject: Gasifier casting furnace

Dear All:

I have been sitting on this too long...

My friend Agua Das uses a simple gasifier made from a paint can and a coffee
can to melt bronze in his Rennaisance Festival casting demonstrations. The
power source is a used refrigerator compressor operated as an ejector.
Burns any old biomass.

See enclosure if interested,

Yours truly, TOM REED

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From snkm at btl.net Mon Nov 5 09:39:22 2001
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:44 2004
Subject: GAS-L: "Hurricane Wood"
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20011105080446.009b3980@wgs1.btl.net>

 

Hello again Andries;

Your points are well put. It will take a country such as China -- or India
or Brazil to implement a barge processing facility. "Modern" world is to
bloated to compete in new technology.

As soon as a market if established for these products -- any of the super
power "3rd-world" countries will move in to arrange supply.

India -- as example -- supplies over 80% of the world's sugar -- at $130 US
per ton.

Here in Belize -- just the processing in the factory costs over $220 per ton.

But then -- even though we be 3rd world -- we are technologically speaking
-- first world driven.

We have this same situation in regards to our citrus industry -- which is
based on English/American processing technology. Brazil runs circles around
us -- we simply can't compete.

Modern world has reached a point where it can no longer afford to change!
Coal and crude is there -- the system is well established -- and so it
shall continue. For all the chest beating and brave words regarding CO2 and
global warming (if even true) -- the die is cast!

It also means that these great societies of man will collapse totally when
that day arrives -- not enough fossil fuels.

Then the lesser societies of man shall be in position to continue evolution.

Until such occurs -- we are parked on the edge -- hopelessly straining on
the leash -- to get back on solid ground.

It is unfortunate that the only way to solve this present situation is wait
for total destruction -- then build completely new.

I know members of this list will not agree. You do not have to agree.
Simply observe -- you can't miss it after a while.

If all the world's resources were equally divided between all human beings
-- the rich modern nations would collapse immediately due to deficiencies
of raw materials.

The greatest segment of man kind -- the poor of this world -- would think
they had died and gone to heaven in regards to the wealth of resources such
a distribution would give them.

Far to bloated to be sustainable.

The bigger they become -- the harder they will fall --

The solution lays in adopting alternate technologies -- right now -- even
if it means short term sacrifice. But as we all see only to clearly on this
mail list -- regarding even the introduction of gasification of biomasses
-- the great societies have simply grown to lazy and to fat to cope with an
ever changing world.

So we can only sit back and wait for events to dictate the circumstances.
We no longer have real interest in attempting to influence out destinies
for the better.

Science -- technology -- bad words --

Just keep "giving" the mobs bread.

Foolish human behavior indeed --

Peter / Belize

At 01:27 PM 11/5/2001 +0100, you wrote:
>On floating barge based wood-to liquids plants Peter writes:
>
>> Yes -- the perfect plan -- the business opportunity of the century!!
>> A deep sea barge factory that can be positioned in short order to clean up
>> Hurricane aftermaths.
>> Gasify biomass into liquid fuel -- preferably ethanol -- which carries
>> such
>> a high value presently.
>>
>Although this is getting a bit off topic -- since not yet ready to go within
>the next few years -- I like to make two observations:
>
>1 - next to wood gasification the floating barge concept could very well be
>applied to other biomass upgrading processes, like flash pyrolysis and HTU
>(both making liquids).
>
>2 - the large scale barge concept has been worked out in the past for the
>cellulosis plant operated in Brazil (built in Japan, owed by a US tycoon),
>the justification was in avoiding construction in the middle of nowhere
>
> and for the barge mounted nuclear power plant design by Westinghouse (in
>the seventies, worked out in great detail), the justification was in
>costprice cutting through conveyor belt production.
>
>Large diesel generator floating power plants have recently been built and
>installed from Japan (by Mitsubishi, I believe), justification was -as I
>recall- in speed of delivery, next to price.
>
>This idea of barge mounted operation certainly has merit (in fact, opens up
>many options), but will need to wait for the availability of a sufficient
>degree of "matured" and "scaled-up" biomass conversion technology.
>
>Andries
>
>
>-
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>
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>
>

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From snkm at btl.net Mon Nov 5 09:40:20 2001
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:44 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Shipping biomass
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20011105074150.00918100@wgs1.btl.net>

 

Hi Andries;

At 12:53 PM 11/5/2001 +0100, you wrote:
>Hi Peter,
>
*****snipped******

>And don''t believe that the "european scene" for green kWh's has a pot of
>gold at the end of the rainbow.
>In that respect, I don't recognize the $ 180,-/MWh quoted (by Arnt?)
>I rather think in terms of $ 50,- to $ 60,- /MWh (green), in bulk.
>That's still a factor 2 to 3 higher than "regular" MWh's.

The $60 per ton figure is my "guesstimate". And yes -- take out shipping
and processing -- not good.

******snipped*******

>>
>> Good point. What we really need is the price this material would be valued
>> at landed at your plant (or any other interested party)
>>
>Correct. I'll see if I can come up with a price "loaded on board" in port in
>Belize since that takes some contacts.

Yes -- that would be the bottom line.

>
>> From that we can deduct supplying, shipping, and any processing -- and see
>> if we still have a shirt left?
>>
>The shipping can be solved.
>The processing is another matter.
>No basic problem to import on a small scale and process it at our end (if
>the economics pan out).
>The main question would be "to size" the operation both ends.

Agreed --

>
>As for the idea to synthesize wood gas into liquids:
>Looks to me that this is easier said than done (in reality, in Belize).
>Within the next few years a pilot plant might turn up somewhere in the
>western world, but sizable production in a region as Belize in, say, 3 to 4
>years ..... I doubt it.

Agreed --

>I've seen the speed of development of coal gasification and of large scale
>wood gasification. If that is any indication, the large sized
>Fischer-Tropsch plant on locally produced wood gas might realistically not
>make it in that period.

Agreed --

>As far as reliable large scale wood gasification is concerned, with
>industrially meaningful long uninterrupted runs .... up till now only if the
>tars can be accepted as part of the producer gas.
>
>So, my question to the List would be: to what degree is Fischer-Tropsch
>synthesis sensitive to tars from biomass gasification?

If steam reforming -- the tars are just more feed-stock for the process.

>
>> Co-firing any coal fired power plant with biomass such as this is a huge
>> plus for greenness -- true -- or not true?
>>
>Very true -- and we do it, in reality (as are others).
>And I personally believe that substituting coal is one of the worthwhile
>goals to work on. It really makes a differs in the CO2 equation, since the
>amount of coal fired for electricity production world wide, is huge. In the
>US alone 1050 million tons/year. Now, take a small percentage of that...
>And then consider the enormous potential for fast growing economies like
>India and China, also greatly depending on coal based electricity.
>Apart from that, spreading this valuable resource out over more generations
>is anyhow a responsible thing to do.
>

Yes -- but even with a "wind-fall" such as this -- the world is not in a
position to utilize it.

>> And it certainly would put so many people to work here in Belize!
>>
>That makes it worthwhile trying to link green power and improving local
>standards of living.

Still -- in the end -- it has to become another subsidized operation -- a
"charity".

I guess we wait another 30 to 50 years -- for crude supplies to deteriorate
to a level that makes biomasses feasible.

For Southern Belize -- the wood will rot -- the Maya will plant -- and soon
things will continue as they always have.

Peter / Belize

>
>best regards,
>Andries
>
>
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>

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From Carl.Carley at eml.ericsson.se Mon Nov 5 10:59:20 2001
From: Carl.Carley at eml.ericsson.se (Carl Carley (EML))
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:44 2004
Subject: GAS-L: RE: Gasifier casting furnace
Message-ID: <BBB80FB03D54D51192DA0002A56B02480573BE@EUKBANT103>

Thanks Tom,
I'm with it now, the airflow out of the compressor cases a drawing effect on the gasifier, that's the bit I couldn't quite figure.

Carl

-----Original Message-----
From: Thomas Reed [mailto:tombreed@home.com]
Sent: 05 November 2001 15:42
To: Carl Carley (EML)
Subject: Re: GAS-L: RE: Gasifier casting furnace

Dear Carl and all:

I thought the label "ejector" would explain all ...

A jet of gas emerging from a nozzle will typically entrain its own weight of
the surrounding gas in 5 diameters downstream. So the air jet from the
refigerator pump (supplying 1 cfm at 120 psi pressure) is quite capable of
entraining enough gas and air to form a nicely mixed flame burning in the
kiln.

Ejectors are nice for experimentation with gasifiers because they provide
suction/pressure without having to cool the gas a risk tar deposits.

Yours truly, TOM REED

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From snkm at btl.net Mon Nov 5 13:22:07 2001
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:44 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Natural Heat Engines
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20011105121314.009b5280@wgs1.btl.net>

 

http://trmm.gsfc.nasa.gov/education_dir/hurricaneheat.html

This might be an interesting study for some on this list.

Peter / Belize

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From Carefreeland at aol.com Mon Nov 5 23:29:47 2001
From: Carefreeland at aol.com (Carefreeland@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:44 2004
Subject: Fwd: GAS-L: Tornados proving modified weather patterns??
Message-ID: <144.4244c30.2918c130@aol.com>

In response to a discussion with Peter Singfield about changing weather
patterns.

To: snkm@btl.net
Subject: Re: GAS-L: Tornados proving modified weather patterns??
From: Carefreeland@aol.com
Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 23:25:36 EST
Full-name: Carefreeland

Peter,
Right on brother ! Looks like you've gotten the large and small of it.
Now watch this hypothisis work like a charm.
I just proved this on the 20th of October by predicting a late tornado
outbreak in Indiana, Michigan, Illinois, Missouri, and Kentucky that occured
on the 24th. I did this by noticing a phenomena I today will officially give
the name "THERMODYNAMIC FAULTS" in the ground.
These are places where the ground moisture heat transfer system, has
built up a reserve of energy. In this case a mear 20 tornados worth. This
is part of my hypothisis of groundmoisture thermodynamics and heat transfer.
If it had been spring, or the front was 3 hours later, the resulting
merged energy could have produced 30 or 40 tornados. The town of Greensburg,
Indiana, was the junction of two faults. The weather there ended up as the
center and peak of an organized squall line about 200 miles long. This pushed
a bulldozer of 50 to 90mph straight line winds across the entire region.
Each end of the line spun up the majority of the tornados towards the end of
the evening.
Earlier in the day across Illinois, the erupting but not yet connected
supercells spun up the first batch. Had this happened with more solar
radiation, and the energy of spring sun, all of the squall line would have
been broken by turbulence, and the worst imaginable would have happened.
This time of year this theory shouldn't have predicted a tornado
outbreak, it should have predicted a rain/snow line. We in the USA, have
again broken our record for October tornados. I think we finnished with
around 107? That looks more like an old Feb or March number.
For those who don't remember, or don't live around here. Xenia (known to
the native Shawne tribe as "place of the devil winds") was the location of
the most powerful tornado on record in 1974. I witnessed the accompanying
hailstorm from Beavercreek. This was part of the worst super outbreak ever.
Xenia has been hit 4x in the last 80 years. 3x since 1974.
I rest my case. My weather service buddy listened to me when I told him
I was on to something. Now he is off to Carolina, so I will submit these as
evidence to you gasification people who like atmospheric studies, for the
basis of my hypothisis. I someday will write a paper on this,(in my spare
time ;-) but for now these unedited letters say it all. You can find Tami
on stoves list. Take note of dates.

Subj: Radar check
Date: 10/23/01 11:26:24 PM EST
From: Carefreeland
To: <A HREF="mailto:Stephen.Wilkinson @NOAA.gov">Stephen.Wilkinson @NOAA.gov
</A>, tami.bond@noaa.gov

Hey Steve,
Look at the radar sequence that is happening now. I was watching the
weather channel radar, and I saw my line in the ground, reflected in the
clouds and rain again.
I noticed the two counties in Indiana with an angled northeast/southwest
boundary, and there was the town I mentioned in an E-mail the other day,
Greensburg, Indiana.
We didn't have the instability materialize this far north last Sat. We
have more tonight. Hopefully not enough to produce severe weather, but
enough to show that ground heatprint in the precip. pattern. The East/west
line is more apparent with this evenings wave. The Northeast/southwest line
was more apparent this afternoon but very obscure. The East/west line is
acting like a weak warm front, like a wedge of colder air to rise over. It's
the cooler ground doing this.
Tell me what you think, I assume you can go over this radar tomorrow if
that's when you get my mail. I got the article on the spring storms,
(skyscope) couldn't open the pictures though. I'm still figuring this
computer stuff out, sorry. All that stuff in the article meshes with what
I've been saying.
The outflow boundaries this spring were enhanced by the ground thermal
pattern which caused a "warm front" like condition to the east of Dayton
along about Rt. 68. This was enhanced by the "cold front type pattern" to
the West. The air wedged up between, lifting it. It was a pretty complex
system, you have to look at all the levels of the atmosphere. Sometimes,
warm, humid air trying to rise, can block other air, and force it up. I
believe this was the case.
What's happening in Indiana tonight deserves looking at even if it is
weak? The same pattern in the spring could spawn numerous tornados.
Let me know, if you see what I see?
Daniel Dimiduk

Subj: Just some current observations
Date: 10/24/01 3:55:00 PM EST
From: Carefreeland
To: <A HREF="mailto:Stephen.Wilkinson @NOAA.gov">Stephen.Wilkinson @NOAA.gov
</A>, tami.bond@noaa.gov

Hi Steve,
Busy today? ;-)
I just came from Xenia, (thought that would spark your attention) I
noticed a dramatic apparent temp change between Beavercreek and Xenia. It
was much cooler in Xenia but the apparent temp. was fluctuating wildly, and I
wasn't the only one to notice. It was sweaty and felt about F 80 in
Beavercreek, It felt F 60 in Xenia and the business I visited in Xenia at
2:00 PM had it's windows closed it was so cold.
I heard one of your services reports and the temp wasn't changing much
between towns(stations)around here. I think the change was caused by mixing
from higher levels and tremendous dewpoint changes between warm wet ground
and higher air that was dryer and cooler. Scott H. reported it was warmer in
Leesburg, sweating warm.
As I drove back westbound from Xenia it seemed I was driving through
pockets of warm moist air in the valleys. Like bubbles hugging the surface.
Then cooler bubbles coming with the downdrafts in the turbulence accompanied
by clouds and sprinkles. Was the warm air lifting over the cool pockets
causing the clouds?
Just saw the radar from Indiana, (4:30 PM) it looks like the storms are
erupting in advance between Indianapolis and Bloomington. This is right
along the East/west line I discussed earlier. The shower signatures indicate
that this line, whatever is causing it, is just south of Dayton, to
Indianapolis. I would watch this area closely. This is still in keeping
with the ground temp. observation I reported Saturday. Watch Greensburg
Indiana !
Good luck tonight, keep us safe, hope this helps,
Daniel Dimiduk


Subj: Follow up to severe weather&discoverys !
Date: 10/26/01 9:04:50 AM EST
From: Carefreeland
To: <A HREF="mailto:Stephen.Wilkinson @NOAA.gov">Stephen.Wilkinson @NOAA.gov
</A>, tami.bond@noaa.gov

Hi Steve,
I just want to follow up on some observations made in the last few days.
Please give me a little post just to reassure me you are still there when you
get a minute.
It seems that most of the energy along the East/west line we discussed
was spread out by the high winds along the front. The radar sequence showed
that some of the most "connected" storms were the strongest in that
southeastern Indiana area. The merging and organization along the line
dispersed the energy into mostly straight line wind and hail "thank
goodness." Everyone in this area had 50mph+ winds. I estimated 65mph here
in Huber Heights with the strongest gust. It's on video tape so you can
estimate wind from the angle of the rain and trees blowing.
I believe if the front had come through just a few hours earlier, that
the minimal October sun could have combined with the stored ground thermal
energy in Eastern Indiana and produced more like 30 or 40 tornados instead of
the 20 reported.
As it were, the storms produced tornados along the lake. (another
thermal boundary on the ground for sure) Also the tornados reported were
mostly earlier in the day around Illinois, when the sun was higher. Right?
What if another thermal boundry on the ground were even stronger along
Illinois? The almost stationary fronts that produced the rain in Indiana
that I observed the last few weeks, may have induced another cold/warm line
over there, but I don't live near there and wouldn't know. look at your
temp. maps from the last few weeks.
Maybe the air rose slowly along the weak east/west warm front and hit
the freezing level way up in South Bend. I think sometimes that tornados
depend on the latent heat released in freezing cloud droplets more than the
condensing ones. Maybe because of more interaction higher up with the jet
stream?
Revolation
Maybe, it is because of the supercooling turning into freezing more
suddenly. I have stepped foot on a supercooled wet parking lot, and watched
the ice crystals shoot from the disturbance of my foot across several acres
of lot in a fraction of a second. What if this happened in a supercell to a
cubic mile or more of supercooled cloud droplets! Say from a thunder shock
wave! You can figure the heat released. (or Tami can) I'm sure you have some
data to do that. It would be like a thermal explosion-you heard it here
first. Imagine the mushroom cloud of warmer (from latent heat release) ice
crystals and air rising within the storm updraft, inducing the tornado!
This is why I need someone to bounce these thoughts off of with more book
knowledge. I figured this out now while talking to you and visualizing it.
Wow would this observation explain a lot hu? Let's just share the credit,
don't forget my name on that paper you write. I do the concept, you do the
math and writing. Tami is good at this too and could help. She lives in
Seattle though, and doesn't know much weather, more of the heat transfer
stuff. We can help her hu?
I had more to say, but I'm in shock over what I just said. I was looking
for years for a mechanism to explain the sudden updraft bursts.
Oh yea. Go back to my Saturdays observations: a temperature difference in
the ground along line from Louisville Ky. to Piqua Oh. Hu? Wasn't there some
kind of funnel reported in Louisville? Another weak rotation signature up
near Sidney Ohio, and Greenville. Any others you know of? I saw a weak wall
cloud like a gustnado moving in over about Vandalia. Got it on video from
the lightning light. It was hard to pick out in the dark, and very weak, so I
just watched it from my rooftop till the wind hit.
I told you we would eventually see something-Chance? Maybe. If you had
been watching this ground effect stuff happening as long as I had, you may
think otherwise. I'd like to come down to Wilmington someday soon and review
the radar tape with you when you have time, maybe if I had your data, I could
show you more.
Didn't I warn you something was happening back on Saturday? Can your
forecasts do that?
Oh, Tami Bond told me that they are now looking at the ground thermal
energy in layers now for greenhouse effect studies. Is this a new
development since I started talking to you or Mr. Paget? Or were they doing
it all along. Just curious. I'm just glad they are, but could use a little
public credit so people don't think I'm crazy.
Good luck, and I'm with you all the way,
Daniel Dimiduk

 

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From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Tue Nov 6 22:25:54 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:44 2004
Subject: Gasifier casting furnace
In-Reply-To: <3BE41774.FFA3D4B3@home.com>
Message-ID: <3BE8A996.CF0C522C@cybershamanix.com>

I took the liberty of converting the dasifier document into html
for those without M$-Word.

--
Harmon Seaver, MLIS
CyberShamanix
Work 920-203-9633
Home 920-233-5820
hseaver@cybershamanix.com
http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html

Title: OZONE

 

 

BIOMASS
ENERGY
FOUNDATION
Inc.
1810
Smith Rd., Golden, CO 80401
303-278
0558; 303-278 0560 FAX;

E-Mail
- 73002,1213@ Compuserve.com


THOMAS
B. REED - PRESIDENT




 

 

 

 

 

 

November
5, 2001

To: Metal
Casters, World Around
From: Tom Reed,
President BEF
Subject: Metal
Casting Gasifier

 

 

 

The furnace shown here
was invented by my friend and metal caster, Agua Das
(Das@welcomehome.org). He uses it to melt bronze at Fairs such as
the Rennaisance festivals. He operates it on any biomass junk, and
since he is in attendance he knows where to shake it and poke
it.(Like Bogart in "African Queen"). It is a matter of
principle with Das that he will purchase nothing he doesn't have to.
This is all made with a paint can and a coffee can, but feel free to
make it larger with other cans. The principles of operation are:


All draft is supplied by
a tiny hole in a piece of copper tubing fed from an old refrigerator
compressor operating an ejector firing into the kiln. It draws gas
from the gasifier and combustion air from a secondary valve to make
a good mix. By adjusting the air flow you change the power level
(the throttle) and by adjusting the air mix you change the air/fuel
ratio (the choke).


The kiln is
approximately 12 in in OD with a riser sleeve liner. The crucible
was 5 in in diameter. Takes 10 minutes for the kiln to reach white
hear.


The upper can is filled
with "junk" biomass, anything lying around, but the denser
the fuel, the less often you need to fill. I would recommend wood
pellets, (particularly when they start supplying them in 1/2in
diameter).


The upper can operates
as a conventional downdraft gasifier.

The lower can is an
updraft charcoal gasifier, so that the excess charcoal from the
upper can can be gasified as needed by opening the updraft air
valve.

I have always been
surprised that no metal founder has copied this.

 

For
more details you can try to reach Das at 303 237 3579.

 

Yours truly

Thomas
B. Reed
President,
BEF

 

 

 

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From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Tue Nov 6 23:02:27 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:44 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Re: Gasifier casting furnace
In-Reply-To: <3BE41774.FFA3D4B3@home.com>
Message-ID: <3BE8B22D.8F0FB257@cybershamanix.com>

Whoops, sorry about that. Try this URL instead:
http://www.cybershamanix.com/stoves/DASIFIER.html

--
Harmon Seaver, MLIS
CyberShamanix
Work 920-203-9633
Home 920-233-5820
hseaver@cybershamanix.com
http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html

 

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From parikh at me.iitb.ac.in Thu Nov 8 02:47:17 2001
From: parikh at me.iitb.ac.in (Prof P P Parikh)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:44 2004
Subject: GAS-L: rated power (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0111081313110.25630-100000@epsilon.me.iitb.ac.in>

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Prof. (Mrs.) P.P.Parikh Phone Office : 5723496, 5767548
Dept. of Mechanical Engg. 5722545 Ext. 7548 / 8385
I.I.T. Bombay Home : 5704646
Mumbai 400 076 INDIA Fax Office : 5723496, 5723480

email : parikh@me.iitb.ac.in
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 13:53:34 +0530 (IST)
From: Prof P P Parikh <parikh@me.iitb.ac.in>
To: shuster <shuster@zol.co.zw>
Cc: gasification forum <gasification@crest.org>
Subject: Re: GAS-L: rated power

The derating could be 60% when an existing SI engine is operated on
producer gas. In case of diesel engines, derating depends upone the
engine. If it has about 60% excess air capacity which is common in
stationary engines, there should be no derating under dua-fuel
operation. Also engines with 60% excess air capcity can be converted
to Spark Ignited 100% producer gas engines with no derating. There also
the pressure drop in the gasifier system plays critical role. Higher
pressure drops can cause drop of power.
Mra Parikh

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Prof. (Mrs.) P.P.Parikh Phone Office : 5723496, 5767548
Dept. of Mechanical Engg. 5722545 Ext. 7548 / 8385
I.I.T. Bombay Home : 5704646
Mumbai 400 076 INDIA Fax Office : 5723496, 5723480

email : parikh@me.iitb.ac.in
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

On Mon, 22 Oct 2001, shuster wrote:

> PLEASE COULD A FEW PEOPLE WHO ACTUALLY OPERATE WOOD GASIFIERS TO FUEL SPARK
> AND COMPESSION IGNITION ENGINES STATE WHAT % HP THEY OBTAIN FROM THEIR
> ENGINES COMPARED TO MANUFACTURERS SPECS WHEN RUNNING ON THE ORIGINAL FUEL.
> I.E.
> BY HOW MUCH IS A ENGINE DERATED. IS THE DERATING DEPENDENT ON THE
> COMPRESSION RATIO OF THE ENGINE.
> I AM DESPERATE FOR A THERMOCOUPLE (1200 C) TO DETERMINE TEMPS IN OUR
> GASIFIERS AND SIMPLY GAS ANALYSER (DIY ; EXHAUST GAS; TUNE UP TYPE) TO
> MEASURE ROUGHLY CO CO2 AND
> O2.
> WE NEED A STRAIGHT DONATION IM AFRAID. FOREX IS SO SCARCE AND EXSORBITANT.
>
> MANY THANKS
> ASHLEY
>
>
> -
> Gasification List Archives:
> http://www.crest.org/discussion/gasification/current/
>
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> http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
>
>

 

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From CHIRK at puknet.puk.ac.za Thu Nov 8 03:30:27 2001
From: CHIRK at puknet.puk.ac.za (Rufaro Kaitano)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:44 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Combustion and Gasification of Coal.
Message-ID: <sbea5e99.047@groupwise.puk.ac.za>

Could someone out there please clarify to me the role of pressure on gasification and combustion of coal. When does its effect come into play, I mean what sort of pressure values are we talking of. How does pressure affect the activation energy values of coal combustion and gasification.

Thanking you in advance
Rufaro..

 

Rufaro Kaitano
Potchestroom University for CHE
School of Chemical & Minerals Engineering
Centre for Coal Processing Technology
PO Box 20578
2522
Noordbrug
RSA
Phone: 27 18 299 4051 (B)
Fax: 27 18 299 1535
******************************************************
Do not be afraid of going slowly, only of standing
still.
*******************************************************

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From jerry5335 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 8 19:06:22 2001
From: jerry5335 at yahoo.com (jerry dycus)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:44 2004
Subject: GAS-L: "Hurricane Wood"
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20011105080446.009b3980@wgs1.btl.net>
Message-ID: <20011109000613.41917.qmail@web14006.mail.yahoo.com>

Hi Peter and All,
Where do the ships from Belize go to? Are
there any that come to Tampa?
What kind of woods are there? There is a
market here for better types of wood like
mahougany,ect or for 2x4, 2x6,ect construction woods.
Please e-mail me offlist.
Maybe other listees from other ports that
the ships go to could see about selling some in their
areas.
jerry dycus
--- Peter Singfield <snkm@btl.net> wrote:
>
> Hello again Andries;
>
> Your points are well put. It will take a country
> such as China -- or India
> or Brazil to implement a barge processing facility.
> "Modern" world is to
> bloated to compete in new technology.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Find a job, post your resume.
http://careers.yahoo.com

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From graeme at powerlink.co.nz Thu Nov 8 23:11:51 2001
From: graeme at powerlink.co.nz (Graeme Williams)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:44 2004
Subject: GAS-L: FLUIDYNE ENGINE TABLES,
Message-ID: <002601c168d4$947781e0$449636d2@graeme>

Dear Biomass and Gasification Colleagues

Have just returned from a long overdue tour of the South Island of New
Zealand, and must apologise for the typing error during the input of the
Engine Tables to the Fluidyne Archive. Www.fluidynenz.250x.com

There should have been two tables (Imperial and Metric) and my very
overtired typise mixed the pages into one table.

Graeme will sort it out when he gets back from fishing next week, but in the
meantime he has deleted it from the Archive.

Regards
Doug Williams
Fluidyne Gasification.

 

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From tombreed at home.com Mon Nov 12 07:45:20 2001
From: tombreed at home.com (Thomas Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:44 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Re: New Gasification website
In-Reply-To: <20011112083344715.AAA307@btgf64>
Message-ID: <00ff01c16b77$a6172720$18e5b618@lakwod3.co.home.com>

Dear Harrie:

Just visited you new beautiful website. It will serve a major purpose in
our GASIFICATION net.

Thanks for including my website www.woodgas.com.

I will certainly add your links when I next update.

How come your net is UK, but your name is Dutch?

Yours for better gasifiers,

TOM REED
Dr. Thomas Reed
The Biomass Energy Foundation
1810 Smith Rd., Golden, CO 80401
303 278 0558;
tombreed@home.com; www.woodgas.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Harrie Knoef" <Knoef@btg.ct.utwente.nl>
To: <suresh.babu@gastechnology.org>; <esa.kurkela@vtt.fi>; <HFC@ENS.dk>;
<Kyriakos.Maniatis@cec.eu.int>; <lotta.kronlund@tps.se>;
<mfock@dk-TEKNIK.dk>; <nick.barker@aeat.co.uk>; <nicolas@gcm.usherb.ca>;
<richard_bain@nrel.gov>; <IUT.de@t-online.de>; <hari.sharan@bluewin.ch>;
<gat@aon.at>; <GNS-Halle@t-online.de>; <konopko@alba-online.de>;
<pyrogas@gmx.de>; <blinke@atb.uni-potsdam.de>; <muehlen@dmt.de>;
<c.schmid@dmt.de>; <Frank_Lichtmann@bb-power.de>;
<gilligundkeller@t-online.de>; <a.schmitt@gas-energie.de>;
<rbuehler@mus.ch>; <etl-gmbh@t-online.de>; <frank.kinner@siempelkamp.com>;
<IREU_IBEUS@t-online.de>; <DWU-Espenhain@t-online.de>; <info@bioenergie.de>;
<campus-espenhain@t-online.de>; <bernhard.voss@beth-filter.de>;
<isi@umsicht.fhg.de>; <evt@iec.tu-freiberg.de>; <info@xylowatt.ch>;
<sacca@sea.sb.uunet.de>; <nrpgaserzeuger@aol.com>; <MHB.FW@t-online.de>;
<office@met-online.de>; <agasteiger@mesa-gmbh.com>;
<w.poetzsch@stadtwerke-eckernfoerde.de>; <hanau@iset.uni-kassel.de>;
<pohl@neuwertwirtschaft.de>; <KUG-Forst@t-online.de>;
<Reingastechnik@t-online.de>; <PLANET.OLDENBURG@t-online.de>;
<iuta@online.de>; <bernd.rueskamp@ltb.de>; <mottitschka.fr@noell.de>;
<lrz-neukirchen@t-online.de>; <IRCJENA@aol.com>; <hmk@bionautics.com>;
<kiefer-energiesysteme@t-online.de>; <Hoffmann@sc.noell.de>;
<koelli@uni-bremen.de>; <steinmetz.zeppelin@t-online.de>;
<WESTERHOFF-ENERGIE@t-online.de>; <pf@zenit.de>; <Thiesen@ZOPF-GMBH.de>;
<UWETEC@t-online.de>; <helmar.tepper@vst.uni-magdeburg.de>;
<buttkerb@svz-gmbh.de>; <bfranke@iwtt.tu-freiberg.de>; <abuekens@vub.ac.be>;
<ABravo-Angel@genencor.com>; <anders.hallgren@tps.se>;
<a.limbrick@dial.pipex.com>; <angela.grassi@etaflorence.it>;
<Ann.Segerborg.Fick@stem.se>; <Arto.Timperi@fi.timberjack.com>;
<AToft@eprl.co.uk>; <barbucci@pte.enel.it>; <barnesi@cregroup.co.uk>;
<birgit.bodlund@generation.vattenfall.se>; <Bjorn.telenius@stem.se>;
<ppanouts@cres.gr>; <beatricecoda@hotmail.com>; <scoditti@casaccia.enea.it>;
<envitec@compulink.gr>; <erik.rensfelt@tps.se>; <berg@fo-licht.com>;
<Fbe@ENS.dk>; <fulcierimaltini@compuserve.com>; <G.Vlondakis@exergia.gr>;
<lennart.gardmark@kommun.vaxjo.se>; <harald.hutterer@gua-group.com>;
<hverelst@vub.ac.be>; <hju@techwise.dk>; <peter.grimm@wip-munich.de>;
<j.van.tubergen@vam.nl>; <jdruyck@vub.ac.be>; <jca@vyncke.be>;
<qtarauzo@posta.unizar.es>; <josef.spitzer@joanneum.ac.at>;
<juan.carrasco@ciemat.es>; <julian.laming@scoribel.be>;
<K.Batos@exergia.gr>; <Kai.sipila@vtt.fi>; <carbona@carbona.fi>;
<keith.pitcher@first-renewables.com>; <km@ENS.dk>;
<Krister.Stahl@sydkraft.se>; <Lars.Sjunnesson@sydkraft.se>;
<lars.waldheim@tps.se>; <luc.debaere@ows.be>;
<Ludwig.Ramacher@Trienekens.de>; <Marc.M.Brykman@ope.shell.com>;
<mari@ibs.ee>; <samolada@alexandros.cperi.certh.gr>;
<Martin.Frankenhaeuser@borealisgroup.com>; <michael.morris@tps.se>;
<MIM@flsmiljo.com>; <narvaez@maraton.sim.ucm.es>; <natasha@meteo.noa.gr>;
<neil.mayne@apme.org>; <elam@atrax.se>; <niranjan.patel@aeat.co.uk>;
<obernberger@glvt.tu-graz.ac.at>; <per.carstedt@ecosystem.se>;
<philippe.girard@cirad.fr>; <dr.pike@dial.pipex.com>;
<Ralf_Lindbauer@bb-power.at>; <stournas@orfeas.chemeng.ntua.gr>;
<tahir@cinar.co.uk>; <wielenga@ffact.nl>;
<manfred.woergetter@blt.bmlf.gv.at>; <yrjo.solantausta@vtt.fi>;
<Schenkel@cragx.fgov.be>; <mcmiral@btg.cz>; <Alwin.Schoonwater@nuon.com>;
<a.bauen@ic.ac.uk>; <b.vanderaa@kara.nl>; <DaveHookes@aol.com>;
<d.r.pyke@warwick.ac.uk>; <g.herdin@jenbacher.com>;
<graeme@powerlink.co.nz>; <Markus.Ising@umsicht.fhg.de>;
<Jan_Hogendoorn@fwc.com>; <JDB@cowi.dk>; <jos.vanbuijtenen@planet.nl>;
<joseph@slt.lk>; <goldemb@iee.usp.br>; <neeft@ecn.nl>;
<manurung@che.itb.ac.id>; <renereltech@vanuatu.com.vu>; <tk@tke.dk>;
<tombreed@home.com>; <WFloor@worldbank.org>; <Hugh.H.Yendole@SI.shell.com>;
<Uwe.Zielke@teknologisk.dk>; <DorrinM@cregroup.co.uk>; <verenum@access.ch>;
<krister@ket.kth.se>; <marjut.suomalainen@vtt.fi>; <cob@ket.kth.se>;
<nicolas@gcm.usherb.ca>; <Steve_Deutch@nrel.gov>; <Claus_Greil@lurgi.de>;
<pekka.simell@vtt.fi>; <vanpaasen@ecn.nl>; <Erik.M.Andersen@teknologisk.dk>
Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 1:36 AM
Subject: website

> Gentlemen,
> Within the framework of the European Gasification Network, we developed a
> website.
>
> www.thermonet.co.uk <http://www.thermonet.co.uk/> or www.gasnet.uk.net
> <http://www.gasnet.uk.net/>
>
> Your comments and contributions are welcome
>
> Kind regards,
>
>
> ir. H.A.M. Knoef
> Head Process Engineering and Implementation
>
> BTG biomass technology group B.V.
> c/o University of Twente
> P.O. Box 217
> 7500 AE Enschede
>
> phone: +31 (0)53 489 2897 (general)
> phone: +31 (0)53 489 4490 (direct)
> fax: +31 (0)53 489 3116
> E-mail: office@btgworld.com
> Direct: knoef@btg.ct.utwente.nl
>
> ==> Visit our website at <http://www.btgworld.com/>
http://www.btgworld.com
> <==
> _____________________________________________________________
>
> ir. H.A.M. Knoef
> Head Process Engineering and Implementation
>
> BTG biomass technology group B.V.
> c/o University of Twente
> P.O. Box 217
> 7500 AE Enschede
>
> phone: +31 (0)53 489 2897 (general)
> phone: +31 (0)53 489 4490 (direct)
> fax: +31 (0)53 489 3116
> E-mail: office@btgworld.com
> Direct: knoef@btg.ct.utwente.nl
>
> ==> Visit our website at <http://www.btgworld.com/>http://www.btgworld.com
<==
> _____________________________________________________________
>

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Tom Reed, Biomass Energy Foundation, Reedtb2@cs.com
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From j.joyce at sri.org.au Mon Nov 12 17:33:21 2001
From: j.joyce at sri.org.au (James Joyce)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:44 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Combustion and Gasification of Coal.
Message-ID: <OF74B9749E.375C8A41-ON4A256B02.0079A535@sri.org.au>

Rufaro, I am studying the same thing for sugar cane wastes (bagasse and
harvest trash). As best as I can determine pressure has the following
effects, in order of importance in the real world (this with differ under
"ideal" or unrealistic conditions experienced in many experimental
situations).

1. Mass transfer rate .... higher pressure tends to reduce diffusion rates
and (in some cases) reduce various species concentrations. This impacts on
the in pore and surface concentrations of pyrolysis products, gasification
reactants and gasification products. This in turn affects the pyrolysis
reactions and the so called "fixed carbon" or pyrolysis char residual, as
well as the reactivity of the residual char.

2. Heat transfer ... higher pressure increases the transfer of heat from
the gas phase to the solid phase. Both pyrolysis and gasification are
exponentially affected by temperature.

3. Activation energy of the gasification reactions. The effect here is so
small realtaive to 1 and 2 that it can only be measured under strictly
controlled experimental conditions. Even then the agreement between results
from different researchers is poor. The results indicate that pressure
either increases, decreases or has no effect activation energy ! Most
money is on a small increase ... so small that the other effects of
pressure are much more important.

Please contact me off-list if you would like to compare notes further. I am
using a new type of experimental apparatus that you may be interested in. I
will be off to the World Solar Challenge (see http://www.mackaysolarcar.com
) for two weeks as of later today ... so any further replies may have to
wait until then.

regards

James Joyce
Sugar Research Institute
Mackay, Australia

Rufaro wrote :

Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 10:29:34 +0200
To: "<gasification" <gasification@crest.org>
From: "Rufaro Kaitano" <CHIRK@puknet.puk.ac.za>
Subject: Combustion and Gasification of Coal.

Could someone out there please clarify to me the role of pressure on =
gasification and combustion of coal. When does its effect come into play, =
I mean what sort of pressure values are we talking of. How does pressure =
affect the activation energy values of coal combustion and gasification.

Thanking you in advance
Rufaro..

 

-------------------------------

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From snkm at btl.net Mon Nov 12 21:18:58 2001
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:44 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Re: New Gasification website
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20011112200053.009d33f0@wgs1.btl.net>

 

At 05:43 AM 11/12/2001 -0700, you wrote:
>Dear Harrie:
>
>Just visited you new beautiful website. It will serve a major purpose in
>our GASIFICATION net.

Certainly does Tom!!

There we can read the following:

*****************************************

Supercritical gasification

Supercritical water gasification (SCW) is being researched for the
conversion of wet biomass and waste streams.

Main advantages of this novel technology are:

suitable to convert very wet biomass and waste streams (> 80wt% moisture)

the produced gas is very clean, and free of tars and other contaminants

the raw gas is very rich in hydrogen (50 - 60 vol%)

the gas becomes available at high pressure, avoiding expensive compression
(f.i. for storage).

The reactor operating temperature is typically between 600 and 650 °C; the
pressure is around 300 bar. The two-phase product stream is released from
the reactor, and separated in a high-pressure gas-liquid separator. Due to
these conditions significant part of the CO2 remains in the water phase.
The gas stream from the HP separator contains mainly the H2, CH4, small
amounts of CO, and part of the CO2.

The fuel gas can be used for standard CHP-applications, but - due to the
specific process characteristics - two specific applications are worthwhile
to mention, being Substitute Natural Gas (SNG) and compressed, renewable
Hydrogen.

Recently, a techno-economic evaluation of the process has been carried out,
and a continuous SCW unit was constructed to show the technical feasibility
of the process. Funded by the Japanese NEDO a project is started aimed at
the design and development of the gasification reactor. A European project
will start soon on the production of renewable Hydrogen by making use of
the SCW process

****************

All points above previously made to this list -- by yours truly. Well, it
is up to the Europeans now --

By the way folks -- this is not a good topic for this list -- last time
around -- while trying to introduce how to implement this technology -- it
was cease and desist or else.

Well, good luck folks -- gasify forever -- forget about steam reformation
under high pressure -- better minds than mine have stated:

Waste of time to even consider it as viable alternative to partial
oxidation as they did back in WWII.

Sleep on guys - and pleasant dreams to!!

Peter -- your radical engineer -- living where you can't find him -- in
Belize!!

Good for Europe!!!

>
>Thanks for including my website www.woodgas.com.
>
>I will certainly add your links when I next update.
>
>How come your net is UK, but your name is Dutch?
>
>Yours for better gasifiers,
>
>TOM REED
> Dr. Thomas Reed
> The Biomass Energy Foundation
> 1810 Smith Rd., Golden, CO 80401
>303 278 0558;
>tombreed@home.com; www.woodgas.com
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Harrie Knoef" <Knoef@btg.ct.utwente.nl>
>To: <suresh.babu@gastechnology.org>; -

*****snipped as not required*******

>Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 1:36 AM
>Subject: website
>
>
>> Gentlemen,
>> Within the framework of the European Gasification Network, we developed a
>> website.
>>
>> www.thermonet.co.uk <http://www.thermonet.co.uk/> or www.gasnet.uk.net
>> <http://www.gasnet.uk.net/>
>>
>> Your comments and contributions are welcome
>>
>> Kind regards,
>>
>>
>> ir. H.A.M. Knoef
>> Head Process Engineering and Implementation
>>
>> BTG biomass technology group B.V.
>> c/o University of Twente
>> P.O. Box 217
>> 7500 AE Enschede
>>
>> phone: +31 (0)53 489 2897 (general)
>> phone: +31 (0)53 489 4490 (direct)
>> fax: +31 (0)53 489 3116
>> E-mail: office@btgworld.com
>> Direct: knoef@btg.ct.utwente.nl
>>
>> ==> Visit our website at <http://www.btgworld.com/>
>http://www.btgworld.com
>> <==
>> _____________________________________________________________
>>
>> ir. H.A.M. Knoef
>> Head Process Engineering and Implementation
>>
>> BTG biomass technology group B.V.
>> c/o University of Twente
>> P.O. Box 217
>> 7500 AE Enschede
>>
>> phone: +31 (0)53 489 2897 (general)
>> phone: +31 (0)53 489 4490 (direct)
>> fax: +31 (0)53 489 3116
>> E-mail: office@btgworld.com
>> Direct: knoef@btg.ct.utwente.nl
>>
>> ==> Visit our website at <http://www.btgworld.com/>http://www.btgworld.com
><==

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From snkm at btl.net Mon Nov 12 21:20:17 2001
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:44 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Combustion and Gasification of Coal.
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20011112201105.00904eb0@wgs1.btl.net>

 

Bio-oil Gasification:

The gasification of bio-oil derived from biomass in an oxygen-blown,
pressurized entrained flow gasifier is considered as a promising route to
syn-gas as an alternative for direct biomass gasification. Usually, the
syn-gas production is carried out at elevated pressure, up to 40 bar, and
temperatures of 800 to 1400oC. After cleaning and conditioning, the syn-gas
can be used for the synthesis of fuels and chemicals (e.g. methanol,
Fischer-Tropsch diesel, ammonia, DME etc). Typically, these synthesis
processes require large-scale operation to be economic feasible.

The production costs of bio-oil must be indemnified by reduced handling,
transportation and logistic costs as well as by reduced costs of the
gasification process. A pyrolysis plant can be operated at locations where
the biomass is cheap, abundantly available, and several pyrolysis units can
provide the feedstock for a single synthesis process.

The actual pros and cons of either direct biomass gasification or bio-oil
gasification can only be determined if real-sized plants come into focus.
However, extensive research on both direct biomass gasification and bio-oil
gasification -as a first step in the production of green transportation
fuels- is certainly justified. In The Netherlands, the entire-chain
development will be supported by various governmental incentives. Together
with interested oil companies and institutes logistic and economic
assessment studies will be carried out to establish the economic potential.

 

At 08:34 AM 11/13/2001 +1000, you wrote:
>Rufaro, I am studying the same thing for sugar cane wastes (bagasse and
>harvest trash). As best as I can determine pressure has the following
>effects, in order of importance in the real world (this with differ under
>"ideal" or unrealistic conditions experienced in many experimental
>situations).
>
>1. Mass transfer rate .... higher pressure tends to reduce diffusion rates
>and (in some cases) reduce various species concentrations. This impacts on
>the in pore and surface concentrations of pyrolysis products, gasification
>reactants and gasification products. This in turn affects the pyrolysis
>reactions and the so called "fixed carbon" or pyrolysis char residual, as
>well as the reactivity of the residual char.
>
>2. Heat transfer ... higher pressure increases the transfer of heat from
>the gas phase to the solid phase. Both pyrolysis and gasification are
>exponentially affected by temperature.
>
>3. Activation energy of the gasification reactions. The effect here is so
>small realtaive to 1 and 2 that it can only be measured under strictly
>controlled experimental conditions. Even then the agreement between results
>from different researchers is poor. The results indicate that pressure
>either increases, decreases or has no effect activation energy ! Most
>money is on a small increase ... so small that the other effects of
>pressure are much more important.
>
>Please contact me off-list if you would like to compare notes further. I am
>using a new type of experimental apparatus that you may be interested in. I
>will be off to the World Solar Challenge (see http://www.mackaysolarcar.com
>) for two weeks as of later today ... so any further replies may have to
>wait until then.
>
>
>regards
>
>James Joyce
>Sugar Research Institute
>Mackay, Australia
>
>
>Rufaro wrote :
>
>Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 10:29:34 +0200
>To: "<gasification" <gasification@crest.org>
>From: "Rufaro Kaitano" <CHIRK@puknet.puk.ac.za>
>Subject: Combustion and Gasification of Coal.
>
>Could someone out there please clarify to me the role of pressure on =
>gasification and combustion of coal. When does its effect come into play, =
>I mean what sort of pressure values are we talking of. How does pressure =
>affect the activation energy values of coal combustion and gasification.
>
>Thanking you in advance
>Rufaro..
>
>
>
>
>-------------------------------
>
>This email message (including any file attachments transmitted with it) is
>for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential
>and privileged information. Any unauthorised alteration, disclosure or
>distribution is prohibited. If you received this email in error, please
>notify the sender by return email and destroy all copies of the original
>message.
>
>Any confidentiality or legal professional privilege is not waived or lost
>by any mistaken delivery of the email.
>
>-------------------------------
>
>
>
>-
>Gasification List Archives:
>http://www.crest.org/discussion/gasification/current/
>
>Gasification List Moderator:
>Tom Reed, Biomass Energy Foundation, Reedtb2@cs.com
>www.webpan.com/BEF
>List-Post: <mailto:gasification@crest.org>
>List-Help: <mailto:gasification-help@crest.org>
>List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:gasification-unsubscribe@crest.org>
>List-Subscribe: <mailto:gasification-subscribe@crest.org>
>
>Sponsor the Gasification List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html
>-
>Other Gasification Events and Information:
>http://www.fsec.ucf.edu/bioam/
>http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml
>http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
>
>

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http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/

 

From ian3 at stemwinder.org Mon Nov 12 21:34:29 2001
From: ian3 at stemwinder.org (Ian Main)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:44 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Re: New Gasification website
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20011112200053.009d33f0@wgs1.btl.net>
Message-ID: <20011112183425.A19884@slug.stemwinder.org>

> >> Gentlemen,
> >> Within the framework of the European Gasification Network, we developed a
> >> website.
> >>
> >> www.thermonet.co.uk <http://www.thermonet.co.uk/> or www.gasnet.uk.net
> >> <http://www.gasnet.uk.net/>
> >>
> >> Your comments and contributions are welcome
> >>

I just tried it, and you can't go anywhere if you don't have flash! Hence,
I can't even look at the site. You just need to make a little link in the
front page that lets you into the main page.

It's always good to make sites work with as many browsers/OS's as possible.

Ian

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From snkm at btl.net Mon Nov 12 21:47:01 2001
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:44 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Re: New Gasification website
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20011112204349.009e0c40@wgs1.btl.net>

At 06:34 PM 11/12/2001 -0800, you wrote:
>> >> Gentlemen,
>> >> Within the framework of the European Gasification Network, we
developed a
>> >> website.
>> >>
>> >> www.thermonet.co.uk <http://www.thermonet.co.uk/> or www.gasnet.uk.net
>> >> <http://www.gasnet.uk.net/>
>> >>
>> >> Your comments and contributions are welcome
>> >>
>
>I just tried it, and you can't go anywhere if you don't have flash! Hence,
>I can't even look at the site. You just need to make a little link in the
>front page that lets you into the main page.
>
>It's always good to make sites work with as many browsers/OS's as possible.
>
> Ian
>

Try this Url Ian ---

http://www.gasnet.uk.net/index.php?name=SG9tZQ==&open=SG9tZQ==

Peter

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From CAVM at aol.com Mon Nov 12 21:48:01 2001
From: CAVM at aol.com (CAVM@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:44 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Combustion and Gasification of Coal.
Message-ID: <6c.12e6123f.2921e3aa@aol.com>

Peter,

I live and work in Kentucky. We have inexpensive electrical power ($.045 KW)
and plenty of coal. The price has doubled since a year or so ago but still
lots of it, especially in the coal fines and bog piles that lay wasting.

Next to a very large coal fired power plant in Western KY is a large coal
mine and vast amounts of reclaimed strip mine ground. If the power plant
could be induced to make the surplus steam available to a project could it be
used to gasify coal, especially waste coal?

Don't get me wrong, I don't have millions of dollars and neither does the
state but DOE has some money as does EPA and USDA if they can be talked out
of it. The trick would be to show that the waste steam from a large coal
fired plant could supply the power to gasify the steamed coal, (if it can).
I am thinking of the failed plans in the 70's to gasify coal on a large scale
which was partially inhibited by the amount of power needed to make it work.

Of course, if it won't get you anywhere you want to be, it is all pointless.
What do you think?

Neal Van Milligen
Kentucky Enrichment Inc
CAVM@AOL.com

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From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Mon Nov 12 21:50:02 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:44 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Re: New Gasification website
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20011112200053.009d33f0@wgs1.btl.net>
Message-ID: <3BF08A06.61E095CE@cybershamanix.com>

Yes, I tried it today as well, and with two different browsers (Netscape
4.78 and Opera) on a Mac. I've got flash, so that wasn't a problem, but the type
on the left side of the page is pretty unreadable. Very tiny (my monitor is set
at 1152x870 resolution), I come across a few websites like this now and then, I
always wonder if they work on the page with a low res monitor, like at 640x480
and so the type looks big to them.

Ian Main wrote:

> > >> Gentlemen,
> > >> Within the framework of the European Gasification Network, we developed a
> > >> website.
> > >>
> > >> www.thermonet.co.uk <http://www.thermonet.co.uk/> or www.gasnet.uk.net
> > >> <http://www.gasnet.uk.net/>
> > >>
> > >> Your comments and contributions are welcome
> > >>
>
> I just tried it, and you can't go anywhere if you don't have flash! Hence,
> I can't even look at the site. You just need to make a little link in the
> front page that lets you into the main page.
>
> It's always good to make sites work with as many browsers/OS's as possible.
>
> Ian
>
> ---

Harmon Seaver, MLIS
CyberShamanix
Work 920-203-9633
Home 920-233-5820
hseaver@cybershamanix.com
http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html

 

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From snkm at btl.net Mon Nov 12 22:54:05 2001
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:45 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Combustion and Gasification of Coal.
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20011112215013.009de400@wgs1.btl.net>

 

Hi Neal;

The Fischer-Tropsch process is a real time event regarding gasifying coal
under highly technical conditions using steam.

It works -- but is expensive. Hard to beat direct combustion to steam
turbines in plants as you mention.

Andries set-up picks up a few extra points by going to gasification in pure
O2 -- but again -- at great expense.

If you have lots of coal -- and know that everyone knows global warming due
to fossil fuel combustion is a myth -- there is no more incentive to pursue
these exotic routes.

>The trick would be to show that the waste steam from a large coal
>fired plant could supply the power to gasify the steamed coal, (if it can).

I personally believe that even more extra efficiency points can be picked
up by simple feeding any waste heat -- and especially steam -- to a
standard geothermal plant.

I can have on your desk a quote from one such producer telling you exactly
how much extra power can be recovered - and at what price -- in no time.

In the end -- the bottom line so to speak -- is how much power you are
getting per pound of coal. And for what cost the extra efficiencies.

Binary systems -- that is conventional old style boiler/turbine mated to
the properly sized geothermal plant for waste heat recover -- end up with
over all efficiencies surpassing the best single plant designs -- and for
much less in costs.

One can also turn the prime turbine set into a "topping" turbine -- not
using a conventional condenser -- but rather operating at a back pressure
-- which feeds a geothermal (refrigerant working fluid) power plant.

This saves having to use such large condensers -- as the more power one can
extract -- the less ends up going out as waste heat through a condenser
circuit.

It is very easy to calculate the advantage. The geothermal manufacture can
tell you exactly how much power can be produced by so much steam at any
condition.

You might decrease the efficiency of the steam turbine by ten points -- but
pick up 20 points by the geothermal unit after.

The rough plans I was drafting on the list a while back were regarding the
use of super critical water to make a high quality product gas from any
"wet" biomass.

But coal is a very good fuel -- and has no problems achieving high
combustion efficiencies.

It is the conversion of the thermal energy so created to mechanical energy
-- especially in the typical "older" American power plant that is costly in
over all efficiencies.

You can gain those points by putting in a new boiler/turbine of modern
characteristics -- such as running at Andries plant -- of "cheat" the
process completely -- and at much less capital cost -- with less
operational and maintenance costs -- by after fitting a geothermal plant to
the system -- making a binary thermodynamic system plant.

The maker of this power plants present turbine can also supply you
extremely accurate projections of what loss in power production will occur
if you increase exhaust pressures. You might have to take out the last few
stages in that turbine as well -- to do this -- but that is no big deal to
de-vane a few blades.

You compare loss in power from primary steam turbine with increase in power
from secondary geothermal turbine -- and if there is sufficient gain in
over all efficiencies -- and if the price is right -- then you go for it!

Capital costs of installing a completely new and modern steam turbine plant
would probably raise the present price by at least 2 cents per kwh (if not
substantially more) just to cover the extra capital investment costs. That
is why there is no incentive for these style plants to be converted.

Binary working fluids is a rather simple after-fitting -- not such a
capital cost burden -- and can be accomplished very quickly -- with only a
very short period of power plant down time for last minute connection.

However -- none of this pertains to good old WWII style gasification -- and
we best have further discussions off list.

And last but not least. Tom Taylor's system -- gasifier to gas engine --
also turns out some high over all efficiencies -- and for extremely
reasonable pricing. It would be viable to investigate that direction as well.

Have you any idea what the present over all efficiency of the power
plant(s) in question are??

And one last point of interest for all on this list.

The huge Wartsila diesels are presently running on Orimulsion -- which is a
bitumen emulsion (Venezuela). They are achieving well over 53% over all
efficiencies using waste heat recovery! Which can be further improved on by
going binary system!

Orimulsion or equivalent can be made from coal -- or coal fines.

Many ways to skin that hog -- and not expensive -- or difficult -- to
research.

Start with pounds per hour -- what state -- etc.

Peter Singfield / Belize

At 09:47 PM 11/12/2001 EST, CAVM@aol.com wrote:
>Peter,
>
>I live and work in Kentucky. We have inexpensive electrical power ($.045
KW)
>and plenty of coal. The price has doubled since a year or so ago but still
>lots of it, especially in the coal fines and bog piles that lay wasting.
>
>Next to a very large coal fired power plant in Western KY is a large coal
>mine and vast amounts of reclaimed strip mine ground. If the power plant
>could be induced to make the surplus steam available to a project could it
be
>used to gasify coal, especially waste coal?
>
>Don't get me wrong, I don't have millions of dollars and neither does the
>state but DOE has some money as does EPA and USDA if they can be talked out
>of it. The trick would be to show that the waste steam from a large coal
>fired plant could supply the power to gasify the steamed coal, (if it can).
>I am thinking of the failed plans in the 70's to gasify coal on a large
scale
>which was partially inhibited by the amount of power needed to make it work.
>
>Of course, if it won't get you anywhere you want to be, it is all
pointless.
>What do you think?
>
>Neal Van Milligen
>Kentucky Enrichment Inc
>CAVM@AOL.com
>
>-
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>
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>
>

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From LINVENT at aol.com Tue Nov 13 12:37:15 2001
From: LINVENT at aol.com (LINVENT@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:45 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Combustion and Gasification of Coal.
Message-ID: <3e.145d523e.2922b437@aol.com>

Dear Mr. Cornelius,
What is the point of gasifying the coal with steam from the power plant?
If it is to generate power, the wholesale value of electricity is probably in
the 1-2 cent range which would not pay for the processing of the coal,
capital recovery and other costs. If the coal has high sulfur, the cost would
be higher for sulfur removal.
The steam would have to be high temperature and there probably isn't
waste steam at this temperature, any steam removed from the process would
reduce net power generated from the plant, so one would have to pay for the
steam.
Large scale power plants using gasification can work economically on
coal. It is demonstrated around the country in various places. It takes years
and millions of dollars to make these things happen.

Sincerely,
Leland T. Taylor
President
Thermogenics Inc.
7100-2nd St. NW, Albuquerque, New Mexico 87107
phone 505-761-1454 fax 505-761-1456
Attached files are zipped and can be decompressed with <A
HREF="http://www.aladdinsys.com/expander/">www.aladdinsys.com/expander/ </A>

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From CAVM at aol.com Tue Nov 13 12:57:24 2001
From: CAVM at aol.com (CAVM@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:45 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Combustion and Gasification of Coal.
Message-ID: <12c.77d2ea5.2922b886@aol.com>

In a message dated 11/13/2001 11:38:50 AM Central Standard Time,
LINVENT@aol.com writes:

<< Large scale power plants using gasification can work economically on
coal. It is demonstrated around the country in various places. It takes
years
and millions of dollars to make these things happen.

>>

Leland, Yes, I have been trying to digest Peter's message on this topic and
I have concluded that this is not anything I can be involved in. I had hoped
that Peter or someone would point out a way to use waste energy, steam or
heat to gasify the coal economically on a small to moderate scale but I think
not.

Cornelius A. Van Milligen

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From snkm at btl.net Tue Nov 13 13:37:21 2001
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:45 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Combustion and Gasification of Coal.
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20011113123309.009ddb00@wgs1.btl.net>

At 12:55 PM 11/13/2001 EST, you wrote:
>In a message dated 11/13/2001 11:38:50 AM Central Standard Time,
>LINVENT@aol.com writes:
>
><< Large scale power plants using gasification can work economically on
> coal. It is demonstrated around the country in various places. It takes
>years
> and millions of dollars to make these things happen.
>
> >>
>
>Leland, Yes, I have been trying to digest Peter's message on this topic and
>I have concluded that this is not anything I can be involved in. I had
hoped
>that Peter or someone would point out a way to use waste energy, steam or
>heat to gasify the coal economically on a small to moderate scale but I
think
>not.
>
>Cornelius A. Van Milligen
>

For the curious -- Peter / Belize

Starting with:

http://www.wws.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/byteserv.prl/~ota/disk3/1982/8224/82240
9.PDF

STATUS OF PROCESS DEVELOPMENT

The status of development of coal conversion and oil shale retorting both
in this country and abroad are reviewed at length in the literature (Rogers
and Hill,
1979; National Coal Association, 1980; Fluor Engineers and Constructors,
Inc., 1979a,b,c) .

The status of synfuel commercialization issummarized in the following tables:

A: Coal Gasification and Constructors,

B: Coal Liquefaction and Constructors, (Fluor Engineers Inc., 1979a) .
(Fluor Engineers Inc., 1979b) .

c: Shale Oil Retorting (Fluor Engineers and Constructors, Inc., 1979c) .

These tables also review the major characteristics of these technologies.
More details about the processes are given in Bentz, E.J., 1980.

************snipped*************

Coal Liquids

Cook Inlet Region $3,900,000 Feasibility study of producing 54,000 barrels
per day
Anchorage, Alaska 99509 of methanol from low sulfur coal using Winkler
gasi-fier
and ICI methanol synthesis.
Site: West side of Cook Inlet, Alaska

W. R. Grace $786,477 ‘Stage 111 of a feasibility study of a coal sourced
Denver, Colorado 80223 methanol plant using a Koppers/Totzek Gasifier.
Site: Moffat County, NW Colorado

Clark Oil & Refining $4,000,000 Feasibility study of producing synthesis
gas from
Milwaukee, Wisconsin 53227 coal, steam, oxygen & methanol from synthesis gas
using a KT Gasifier, ICI & the Mobil M Process.
Site: S. Illinois

ETC -- etc -- ect

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From snkm at btl.net Tue Nov 13 14:00:42 2001
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:45 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Combustion and Gasification of Coal.
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20011113125726.009d7ec0@wgs1.btl.net>

 

Hmm -- nice rig for sale -- "used" --

1000 tons ammonia and 1000 tons ethanol -- per day -- from coal. Plus other
"products". Will give one an idea of processes.

http://www.equipsale.co.za/background.htm

also -- a lot more details at:

http://www.osti.gov/servlets/purl/755082-pcvpXX/webviewable/755082.pdf

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From kssustain at provide.net Tue Nov 13 14:01:58 2001
From: kssustain at provide.net (Kermit Schlansker)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:45 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Solar Boimass
Message-ID: <005401c16c75$7b29e080$a45156d8@default>

 

<FONT color=#000000
size=2>                               
Solar Biomass 

<FONT color=#000000
size=2>           Peter
Singleton's problem of having stranded biomass in Belize is a common one. The
problem is, how do you make a product that is valuable enough to be shipped long
distance. My solution for the tropics is to combine solar and biomass energy in
order to produce a liquid fuel that could be shipped at a profit. I doubt if you
could compete with oil at present prices but as the price of oil goes up, such
factories should make money. Solar energy could be used to dry biomass, torrify
it, make charcoal, gasify it, and even supply the steam to convert tars to
Synthesis gas. Solar steam might also provide the power for chipping.The heat
added by the solar might make it possible to have an output energy greater than
the input energy of the biomass. Of course it would be essential to produce
steam-electricity from the cooling process for the use of the local population.
I don't know what the minimum temperature of the steam would have to be.
Heliostats as in Solar 2 might be the best way to go but trough collectors might
also do the job.         I bought
two books from Tom Reed, (Biomass Energy Foundation) "A Survey of Biomass
Gasification 2000" and "Biomass to Methanol Specialists
Workshop". These books are relatively inexpensive and are very useful in
getting an insight to what the industry is doing. In making Methanol from
biomass there is a problem in loading solid fuels into a high pressure
reservoir. I would think that there would also be a problem in making very
large, very high pressure vessels. I am not sure if this works but one thought
would be to produce pyro oil using solar at low pressure and then pump the pyro
oil into the high pressure vessel and then use solar heat and steam to convert
the pyro into methanol. It seems to me that gas made from solar heat would have
a higher heat value because no nitrogen is present. The step of making oxygen
would bre avoided.         It is my
belief that added solar heat could be used to make many processes more energy
effective. These include stranded gas to methanol, shale processing, oil sand
processing, and hydrogen from electrolysis. Someone needs to organize, and write
a proposal to the energy department for using solar heat and steam to process
biomass. New Mexico or Colorado might be places to put the plant. More processes
using heliostats would put them into production and make them cheaper for
processing biomass. An immediate goal for biomass would be an industry large
enough to enable farm cooperatives to produce their necessary liquid fuel and
ammonia.           Some of
the commercial biomass reactors used electricity as a source of heat. I can't
imagine that this would be an energy effective process. However in the special
case of stranded electric capacity there might be a fit. From the wind maps, the
whole state of North Dakota is suitable for windmills. It might be difficult to
ship all of that electricity out, but it could be used to make liquid fuel and
ammonia from biomass.       I am very
concerned about making small conversion and manufacturing processes efficient
because the only way to use the waste heat from many processes is to heat
buildings in winter. Biomass is the only renewable fuel that can keep people
warm but there will not be enough of it. As an example, the Dasifier, (woodgas)
could be used to fuel a small foundry located in an apartment building. The
foundry would be used only in winter. Cogeneration and the wood fueled heat pump
would also be methods of saving
energy.                                                            
Kermit
Schlansker          

 

From snkm at btl.net Tue Nov 13 14:19:51 2001
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:45 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Combustion and Gasification of Coal.
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20011113131531.009da140@wgs1.btl.net>

 

Synergy -- rings a bell?? Lots of interesting info here as well folks.

http://www.synergytechnologies.com/sitemap.asp

Petrochemicals:

Petrochemicals such as methanol and other alcohols are manufactured from a
catalytic reaction of a 1:1 ratio of hydrogen and carbon monoxide syngas.
In these processes the first step is to produce the syngas and then to
control the ratio by the removal of hydrogen. SynGen can produce the
initial syngas from the desired feedstock and is believed to be attractive
either as a direct replacement or as a supplement to the conventional
reformers currently in use throughout the world.

And to answer why use electrical power??

The SynGen reactor converts a number of hydrocarbon feedstocks into syngas
(hydrogen and carbon monoxide). We refer to the product gas as syngas
because it is a synthesis gas which makes petrochemicals such as methanol,
higher alcohols, dimethyl ether, or synfuel. The essence of the SynGen
technology is passing the hydrocarbon feed, in the presence of an oxidizing
stream, through a cold-plasma discharge generated by electricity called
“GlidArc”. The “GlidArc” discharge is produced by high voltage polyphase
electricity. SynGen differs from other so called plasma torches in that the
power consumption is quite low as compared to conventional plasmas. The
discharge excites the fuel molecules, providing the energy for the chemical
reactions to go forward and the subsequent conversion to syngas. The most
important aspect of the SynGen technology is its economic benefit in the
production of syngas compared to competing technologies. SynGen will make
any syngas process less costly to build and could be the economic solution
for many plants worldwide.

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From snkm at btl.net Tue Nov 13 14:40:21 2001
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:45 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Combustion and Gasification of Coal.
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20011113133708.009ddb50@wgs1.btl.net>

 

And of course:

http://www.fischer-tropsch.org/

Purpose: There is a large body of documents from the 1920's through the
1970's which are important for researching the history and development of
the Fischer-Tropsch and related processes. The purpose of this site is to
make these documents available in electronic media.

 

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From snkm at btl.net Tue Nov 13 15:11:30 2001
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:45 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Combustion and Gasification of Coal.
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20011113134258.009e7ca0@wgs1.btl.net>

 

Interesting!

(What else can be done with a partial combustion gasifier)

http://www.syntroleum.com/

How does the Syntroleum’s Process differ from other GTL technologies?

The Syntroleum Process differs from other processes in a number of ways.
The two most fundamental are:

The use of air, rather than pure oxygen, in the production of synthesis
gas. This enables GTL plants using the Syntroleum Process to be smaller,
less expensive and safer to operate than competing technologies.

Second, where others typically incorporate recycle loops in their
Fischer-Tropsch synthesis reactors, the Syntroleum Process is a single-pass
design that takes advantage of the nitrogen in the syngas.

Additionally, the Syntroleum Process is a net producer of energy, creating
power to drive the process itself as well as the potential to sell excess
energy to local markets, in the form of electricity or steam. The company
has under development several other unique advantages that should also help
to lower the capital costs, but they are proprietary or the subject of
patent applications.

 

 

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From snkm at btl.net Tue Nov 13 16:07:54 2001
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:45 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Combustion and Gasification of Coal.
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20011113145730.009e5860@wgs1.btl.net>

 

And last -- but surely not the least -- folks --

 

OVERVIEW OF SELECTED SYNTHETIC FUEL CONVERSION PROCESSES

Everything and the kitchen sink!

http://www.wws.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/byteserv.prl/~ota/disk3/1982/8224/82240
5.PDF

All the gas conversion formulas are there -- plus run downs of each
process. A lot of specific info on the gasification process -- from partial
combustion to steam reforming -- and pure O2 -- all there. A gold mine of
info -- and most of it can apply to biomass processes.

And also -- came across this:

"Gasification in Molten Metal Yields Power From Wood Wastes ....1-21 "

Hey -- my liquid metal bath!!

That taken from:

http://edj.net/sinor/sfr1-99cont.html

Volume 6 No. 1 January 1999 Table of Contents

The Sinor Synthetic Fuels Report
The Sinor Synthetic Fuels Report is published quarterly in January, April,
July, and October by J.E. Sinor Consultants Inc., 6964 North 79th Street,
Suite 1, Niwot, Colorado, USA 80544, (303)652-2632.

Check at:

http://edj.net/sinor/sfr.html

Nobody has a copy of that laying around to scan in??

Sounds so very interesting!

Peter / Belize

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From snkm at btl.net Tue Nov 13 16:09:26 2001
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:45 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Combustion and Gasification of Coal.
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20011113143632.009df370@wgs1.btl.net>

 

Coal Gasification

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----

Article by E. L. Clark.

Coal gasification is a process for converting coal partially or completely
to combustible gases. After purification, these gases - carbon monoxide,
carbon dioxide, hydrogen, methane, and nitrogen - can be used as fuels or
as raw materials for chemical or fertilizer manufacture. From the early
19th century until the 1940s almost all fuel gas distributed for
residential or commercial use in the United States was produced by the
gasification of coal or coke. In the 1940s the growing availability of
low-cost natural gas led to its substitution for gases derived from coal.
Interest in coal gasification has been renewed, however, with recent
predictions that natural gas reserves in the United States will begin to
diminish by 1980. At present, except for by-product gas from the
manufacture of coke, no coal gasification plants of any appreciable output
are in operation in the United States. Many plants, however, are in
operation in other countries that have no reserves of natural gas or
petroleum.

Coal may be gasified in a number of ways. The simplest method, and the
first used, was to heat coal in a retort in the absence of air, partially
converting coal to gas with a residue of coke; the Scottish engineer
William Murdock used this technique in pioneering the commercial
gasification of coal in 1792.

Murdock licensed his process to the Gas Light and Coke Company in 1813, and
in 1816 the Baltimore Gas Company, the first coal gasification company in
the United States, was established. The process of heating coal to produce
coke and gas is still used in the metallurgical industry.

The most complete conversion of coal or coke to gas that is feasible was
achieved by reacting coal continuously in a vertical retort with air and
steam. The gas obtained in this manner, called producer gas, has a
relatively low thermal content per unit volume of gas (100-150 Btu/cu ft).
The development of a cyclic steam-air process in 1873 made possible the
production of a gas of higher thermal content (300-350 Btu/cu ft), composed
chiefly of carbon monoxide and hydrogen, and known as water gas. By adding
oil to the reactor, the thermal content of gas was increased to 500-550
Btu/cu ft; this became the standard for gas distributed to residences and
industry. Since 1940, processes have been developed to produce continuously
a gas equivalent to water gas; this involves the use of steam and
essentially pure oxygen as a reactant. A more recently developed process
reacts coal with pure oxygen and steam at an elevated pressure of 3.09
Newtons per sq m (450 psi) to produce a gas that may be converted to
synthetic natural gas.

The most common modern process uses lump coal in a vertical retort. The
coal is fed at the top with air, and steam is introduced at the bottom. The
gas, air, and steam rising up the retort heat the coal in its downward flow
and react with the coal to convert it to gas. Ash is removed at the bottom
of the retort. Using air and steam as reacting gases results in a producer
gas; using oxygen and steam results in a water gas. Increasing operating
pressure increases the productivity.

Two other processes currently in commercial use react finely powdered coal
with steam and oxygen. One of these, the Winkler process, uses a fluidized
bed in which the powdered coal is agitated with the reactant gases. The
other, called the Koppers-Totzek process, operates at a much higher
temperature, and the powdered coal is reacted while it is entrained in the
gases passing through the reactor. The ash is removed as a molten slag at
the bottom of the reactor. Both of these processes are being used for fuel
gas production and in the generation of gases for chemical and fertilizer
production.

As petroleum and natural gas supplies decrease, the desirability of
producing gas from coal will increase. It is also anticipated that costs of
natural gas will increase, allowing coal gasification to compete as an
economically viable process. Research in progress on a laboratory and
pilot-plant scale should lead to the invention of new process technology by
the end of the century, thus accelerating the industrial use of coal
gasification.

Bibliography: Howard-Smith, I., and Werner, G. J., Coal Conversion
Technology (1976); Massey, Lester G., ed., Coal Gasification (1974);
Schora, Frank C., ed., Fuel Gasification (1967); Schora, Frank C., et al.,
Fuel Gases from Coal (1976).

 

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From snkm at btl.net Tue Nov 13 16:45:00 2001
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:45 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Reaction Chamber Ceramic liners
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20011113153632.009df370@wgs1.btl.net>

 

Found this while checking things:

http://honeywellaircraftlandingsystems.com/HACI/filter_catalyst.shtm

PRD-66 materials are an all oxide ceramic, which is intrinsically oxidation
proof. The material consists of a layered microstructure of alumina,
mullite and cordierite, and some amorphous material. As manufactured, the
PRD-66 is extensively micro-cracked. This accounts for its relatively low
strength but extremely high thermal shock resistance, which is exemplified
in gas combustion downshock tests which exceed 18,000°F/sec.
(10,000°C/sec.) for multiple cycles. Continuous use temperature is 2372°F
(1300°C).

and

PRD-66 Cylindrical Products have been fabricated in a wide range of sizes,
shapes, and wall densities to suit many diverse applications. "Porous-wall"
Components can be used as radial-flow catalyst supports or molten metal
filters.

"Solid-wall" designs have been developed for use as protective thermal liners.

And then a picture of a "perfect" gasifier "throat".

and this might be of interest to:

Unlike common monolithic material, thermal shocks exceeding 18,000°F/sec.
(10,000°C/sec.) can be endured

Plus -- great for fixing catalyst to.

One would think the perfect small gasifier design in right there??

Peter / Belize

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From snkm at btl.net Tue Nov 13 16:46:17 2001
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:45 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Molten Metal Gasifiers
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20011113153924.009e6600@wgs1.btl.net>

 

Found this so far -- hope for more later.

Peter / Belize

Pilot Plant Produces Hydrogen Within Four Hours of Startup

On June 13, 2001, Alchemix's H2 Technologies division commenced successful
operations of its pilot plant to demonstrate the Company's proprietary H2
Coal Refining technology.

"We began hydrogen production within four hours of start up," reported
Michael Gregory, Executive Vice President and COO of H2 Technologies.
"That's pretty good for a molten metal process and is a tribute to the
excellent team we have working on this project. We are going to operate
over the next few weeks to determine optimum process conditions for the
production of hydrogen."

The H2 Coal Refining technology pilot plant is located at Alchemix's
technical center, Pittsburgh Mineral & Environmental Technology (PMET)
located in New Brighton, Pennsylvania, a suburb of Pittsburgh. Dr. Tom
Weyand, President of PMET, and Dale Nickels, Senior Process Engineer, are
in charge of conducting the test protocol.

H2 Coal Refining refers to the Company's aggregated technologies covered in
four patents with currently more than 100 claims of novelty relating to the
low cost production of clean hydrogen and methane from coal.


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From snkm at btl.net Tue Nov 13 18:34:18 2001
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:45 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Molten Metal Gasifiers
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20011113163643.009e1db0@wgs1.btl.net>

 

Take a good look at this page:

http://www.alchemix.net/products.htm

A wonderful solution to making H2!! Using any heat source -- including
solar -- but you need CO as well.

Click on the diagram -- the only explanation.

Or try this Url direct:

http://www.alchemix.net/products.htm#

They are not letting out much -- but more than enough for me to work out
the rest.

I once proposed the same -- using Aluminum -- but impractical to reduce the
aluminum oxide after -- this is the solution!

Should we start a discussion on this "new" process?? It is geared so
perfectly to biomass -- partial combustion -- gasification.

Product would be pumped through the tin metal bath -- reducing the tin
oxide -- and would still burn as fuel (the H2) to fuel this reaction on the
other end.

Actually -- dirty down-draft gasifier would work perfect for this
application -- most of the product fueling the H2 production -- some of it
parging after -- then remixed with regular product -- to be burned.

I doubt you need worry about tars -- they will gasify in the molten tin
bath -- enriching product.

Well, by now half this list or more must be very confused -- check out the
above url -- maybe -- we will be "allowed" to discuss this further??

Peter/Belize

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From LINVENT at aol.com Tue Nov 13 18:55:18 2001
From: LINVENT at aol.com (LINVENT@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:45 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Combustion and Gasification of Coal.
Message-ID: <11e.758acac.29230cd4@aol.com>

Dear Peter,
I am amazed at how well you prowl the internet and find this information.
However, making use of it is another story. It is somewhat of concern to
those small gasifier developers to hear of large scale systems and exotic
metal systems which cost zillions of dollars to operate, build and own. What
the intent is to come up with cheap and inexpensive technologies which are
applicable to localized scenarios on a large scale. This is not the case with
many of the technologies which you have unearthed.
Some downsides:
The air produced synthesis gas process which you mentioned has been severely
attacked by many parties as being a promotional scheme. There have been large
companies involved with this organization who have withdrawn after investing
$1mm or more for a look see.
Plasma energy developers do not give you a Kwhr/BTU/SCF yield that is either
reasonable or efficient.
The large scale gasifier have shut down due to prices of products being at
record lows. Any coal fired system has to have significant value to the
output product. If they were to take negatively valued wastes and operate the
facilities, they would be more economic. Moving the plants to another site is
prohibitively expensive unless the Chinese buy them and set them up in China.
They have done this with smaller plants.
Molten metals technology had a serious black eye with Molten Metals Inc.
bankruptcy after DOE poured $90mm into them. They never proved the process
would work or be efficient. Lots of technical problems.
The technology for liquid fuels production from coal is well known and
implemented. It is a matter of political will to make it part of our energy
picture. Other wastes are much better candidates for this for economic
reasons. Most of the liquid fuels and even plastics are made from coal in
South Africa. If one looks at SASOL, you see the scope of their capability
and history of development. No need to look farther.
With $1.07/gallon gasoline here, the energy crisis has largely subsided,
congress is still pressing on, but the push has been supplemented with the
war or police action or whatever effort we are currently engaged in.
Because of the massively wide divergence of technology availability, it
will actually reduce the solutions to the problems. Financing types will have
to become well educated on each process and make decisions based upon this
information. This takes a long time, if ever completed, and delays the
financial process as we have well seen. Every time I talk to a financier, the
question arises, "What do you know about this process", and it distracts from
a mainstream activity. Just listing the competitive technologies would take a
book when put into a business plan.

Sincerely,
Leland T. Taylor
President
Thermogenics Inc.
7100-2nd St. NW, Albuquerque, New Mexico 87107
phone 505-761-1454 fax 505-761-1456
Attached files are zipped and can be decompressed with <A
HREF="http://www.aladdinsys.com/expander/">www.aladdinsys.com/expander/ </A>

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From CAVM at aol.com Tue Nov 13 19:29:55 2001
From: CAVM at aol.com (CAVM@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:45 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Molten Metal Gasifiers
Message-ID: <62.16e6b545.292314f7@aol.com>

In a message dated 11/13/2001 5:35:59 PM Central Standard Time, snkm@btl.net
writes:
Take a good look at this page:

http://www.alchemix.net/products.htm

A wonderful solution to making H2!! Using any heat source
<< Well, by now half this list or more must be very confused >>

Peter, in the production of hydrogen, et al, from coal via steam, is this a
high volume, high dollar project or can it be done on a moderate scale?

What are the limitations of this process? Is one the production of the steam
or the cost of the tin material?

What about your previous idea of using aluminum? We have available huge
quantities of aluminum dross from smelters. It is a big problem to our
client since it releases ammonia when wetted and we have been unable to
interest anyone in the separation and marketing of the ammonia.

Cornelius A. Van Milligen
CAVM@AOL.com

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From snkm at btl.net Tue Nov 13 20:10:08 2001
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:45 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Troubled Times
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20011113190641.009db3e0@wgs1.btl.net>

 

Coal Gasification

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----

Article by E. L. Clark.

Coal gasification is a process for converting coal partially or completely
to combustible gases. After purification, these gases - carbon monoxide,
carbon dioxide, hydrogen, methane, and nitrogen - can be used as fuels or
as raw materials for chemical or fertilizer manufacture. From the early
19th century until the 1940s almost all fuel gas distributed for
residential or commercial use in the United States was produced by the
gasification of coal or coke. In the 1940s the growing availability of
low-cost natural gas led to its substitution for gases derived from coal.
Interest in coal gasification has been renewed, however, with recent
predictions that natural gas reserves in the United States will begin to
diminish by 1980. At present, except for by-product gas from the
manufacture of coke, no coal gasification plants of any appreciable output
are in operation in the United States. Many plants, however, are in
operation in other countries that have no reserves of natural gas or
petroleum.

Coal may be gasified in a number of ways. The simplest method, and the
first used, was to heat coal in a retort in the absence of air, partially
converting coal to gas with a residue of coke; the Scottish engineer
William Murdock used this technique in pioneering the commercial
gasification of coal in 1792.

Murdock licensed his process to the Gas Light and Coke Company in 1813, and
in 1816 the Baltimore Gas Company, the first coal gasification company in
the United States, was established. The process of heating coal to produce
coke and gas is still used in the metallurgical industry.

The most complete conversion of coal or coke to gas that is feasible was
achieved by reacting coal continuously in a vertical retort with air and
steam. The gas obtained in this manner, called producer gas, has a
relatively low thermal content per unit volume of gas (100-150 Btu/cu ft).
The development of a cyclic steam-air process in 1873 made possible the
production of a gas of higher thermal content (300-350 Btu/cu ft), composed
chiefly of carbon monoxide and hydrogen, and known as water gas. By adding
oil to the reactor, the thermal content of gas was increased to 500-550
Btu/cu ft; this became the standard for gas distributed to residences and
industry. Since 1940, processes have been developed to produce continuously
a gas equivalent to water gas; this involves the use of steam and
essentially pure oxygen as a reactant. A more recently developed process
reacts coal with pure oxygen and steam at an elevated pressure of 3.09
Newtons per sq m (450 psi) to produce a gas that may be converted to
synthetic natural gas.

The most common modern process uses lump coal in a vertical retort. The
coal is fed at the top with air, and steam is introduced at the bottom. The
gas, air, and steam rising up the retort heat the coal in its downward flow
and react with the coal to convert it to gas. Ash is removed at the bottom
of the retort. Using air and steam as reacting gases results in a producer
gas; using oxygen and steam results in a water gas. Increasing operating
pressure increases the productivity.

Two other processes currently in commercial use react finely powdered coal
with steam and oxygen. One of these, the Winkler process, uses a fluidized
bed in which the powdered coal is agitated with the reactant gases. The
other, called the Koppers-Totzek process, operates at a much higher
temperature, and the powdered coal is reacted while it is entrained in the
gases passing through the reactor. The ash is removed as a molten slag at
the bottom of the reactor. Both of these processes are being used for fuel
gas production and in the generation of gases for chemical and fertilizer
production.

As petroleum and natural gas supplies decrease, the desirability of
producing gas from coal will increase. It is also anticipated that costs of
natural gas will increase, allowing coal gasification to compete as an
economically viable process. Research in progress on a laboratory and
pilot-plant scale should lead to the invention of new process technology by
the end of the century, thus accelerating the industrial use of coal
gasification.

Bibliography: Howard-Smith, I., and Werner, G. J., Coal Conversion
Technology (1976); Massey, Lester G., ed., Coal Gasification (1974);
Schora, Frank C., ed., Fuel Gasification (1967); Schora, Frank C., et al.,
Fuel Gases from Coal (1976).

 

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From snkm at btl.net Tue Nov 13 20:11:26 2001
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:45 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Combustion and Gasification of Coal.
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20011113185501.009f1860@wgs1.btl.net>

 

Tom T -- lots of points you bring up! And your more than right on most of
them.

But cutting to the quick -- I doubt the old Molten Metals Inc. "fiasco" was
working with liquid tin liquid metal baths as steam to H2 conversion units.
Read the article I advised -- very cute way to make H2 -- has nothing to do
with coal gasification.

I do wonder what over all efficiencies are -- they have buried the actual
technology so deeply. All hype -- no specs. Typical of this new mass media
age of "innovation".

Otherwise -- guess you are right. Nothing new under the sun -- and to
expensive to go looking anyway.

Your scientific assemblies are now bankrupt -- everything is a fraud.

Guess we wait for China to make the next break-throughs??

Seriously -- your right!! The US of A has simply -- like Europe -- priced
itself out of the market place regarding innovation.

Now excuse me -- I am looking at some small MAPP tanks I have in stock --
empty -- and considering on finding a few pounds to pure tin (old soft
drink cooler liners) -- and doing some experimenting -- and having some
entertainment. I will not need to do a mass media stock market con job --
hire 100 researchers -- or suck up Government grant money.

Wish you were here -- but just know your life style is far to rich to
tolerate it here.

I sympathize with your problems introducing technology up your way -- glad
I am not there.

Of course your more than right about future prospects for "alternative"
energy. Oil is more than cheap -- there is no more "contest" regarding
burning fossil fuels and global warming -- no reason to not burn as much
fossil fuels as you can now -- there is no reason to pursue gasification
beyond the collector and hobbiest level -- IN THE USA and EUROPE!

Hey -- as a past Canadian -- I remember when England went this way -- just
before they collapsed from being a world leader. (Gave up on innovation)

Welcome to the club guys! You have finally reached. Stagnation --

People like you and I Tom -- there must be a place for us to work our arts
-- guess it just is no longer around here.

I also found a "Brave" statement on all this -- will post it in next message.

Well spoken -- great words -- but left me feeling seriously depressed.

Peter / Belize

 

At 06:55 PM 11/13/2001 EST, you wrote:
>Dear Peter,
> I am amazed at how well you prowl the internet and find this
information.
>However, making use of it is another story. It is somewhat of concern to
>those small gasifier developers to hear of large scale systems and exotic
>metal systems which cost zillions of dollars to operate, build and own. What
>the intent is to come up with cheap and inexpensive technologies which are
>applicable to localized scenarios on a large scale. This is not the case
with
>many of the technologies which you have unearthed.
> Some downsides:
>The air produced synthesis gas process which you mentioned has been severely
>attacked by many parties as being a promotional scheme. There have been
large
>companies involved with this organization who have withdrawn after investing
>$1mm or more for a look see.
>Plasma energy developers do not give you a Kwhr/BTU/SCF yield that is either
>reasonable or efficient.
>The large scale gasifier have shut down due to prices of products being at
>record lows. Any coal fired system has to have significant value to the
>output product. If they were to take negatively valued wastes and operate
the
>facilities, they would be more economic. Moving the plants to another site
is
>prohibitively expensive unless the Chinese buy them and set them up in
China.
>They have done this with smaller plants.
>Molten metals technology had a serious black eye with Molten Metals Inc.
>bankruptcy after DOE poured $90mm into them. They never proved the process
>would work or be efficient. Lots of technical problems.
> The technology for liquid fuels production from coal is well known and
>implemented. It is a matter of political will to make it part of our energy
>picture. Other wastes are much better candidates for this for economic
>reasons. Most of the liquid fuels and even plastics are made from coal in
>South Africa. If one looks at SASOL, you see the scope of their capability
>and history of development. No need to look farther.
> With $1.07/gallon gasoline here, the energy crisis has largely subsided,
>congress is still pressing on, but the push has been supplemented with the
>war or police action or whatever effort we are currently engaged in.
> Because of the massively wide divergence of technology availability, it
>will actually reduce the solutions to the problems. Financing types will
have
>to become well educated on each process and make decisions based upon this
>information. This takes a long time, if ever completed, and delays the
>financial process as we have well seen. Every time I talk to a financier,
the
>question arises, "What do you know about this process", and it distracts
from
>a mainstream activity. Just listing the competitive technologies would
take a
>book when put into a business plan.
>
>
>Sincerely,
>Leland T. Taylor
> President
> Thermogenics Inc.
>7100-2nd St. NW, Albuquerque, New Mexico 87107
>phone 505-761-1454 fax 505-761-1456
>Attached files are zipped and can be decompressed with <A
>HREF="http://www.aladdinsys.com/expander/">www.aladdinsys.com/expander/ </A>
>
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From snkm at btl.net Tue Nov 13 20:27:40 2001
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:45 2004
Subject: GAS-L: BECHTEL COMMENTS ON SYNTHETIC FUELS
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20011113192345.009dc440@wgs1.btl.net>

 

Now Tom -- I really hope that you can still enjoy wisdom. I believe I have
been promoting this same point since first joining this list.

US promoters of innovation had better be capable of operating in 3rd world.
Industrialized world is stagnating. It is 3rd world that will be growing.
It is 3rd world that will keep on pushing the edges of technology further out.

It is simply to restrictive to do any form of innovation in modern
countries now -- with all those Green oriented laws in place -- etc --

Well, on to the master.

Peter / Belize

BECHTEL OBSERVES THAT TECHNOLOGY IS LOWERING THE COST OF SYNTHETIC FUELS

In a paper prepared for the 17th Congress of the World Energy Council held
in Houston, Texas, in September, chairman R. Bechtel of the Bechtel Group
stated that several trends are profoundly changing the energy industries:
erosion of international barriers, privatization and deregulation, and
technological progress.

Developing nations’ energy consumption will surpass that of developed
nations by 2020, accounting for 64 percent of the increase in world energy
consumption. This implies improved standards of living worldwide. The
erosion of barriers to trade and investment, transportation and information
technology and finance will drive the process. Growing markets worldwide
mean that the energy industries will be active in new and unfamiliar
locales, where the local experience of major engineer/constructors will be
a major asset.

For engineer/constructors to compete effectively, says Bechtel, they must
cultivate what Bechtel’s past president and former United States Secretary
of State G. Shultz has characterized as "a global reach and a local touch."
Local presence is important for frequent and open communication with
customers, for management of local contractors and suppliers, for
accommodating local customs and institutions and for ensuring quality and
integrity.

Erosion of international barriers makes it possible for
engineer/constructors to drive down costs without compromising quality.
Three key ways to accomplish this are through global procurement, global
engineering execution and global financing:

Global procurement is made easier by erosion of barriers to information and
trade. Construction materials and equipment is now a global market.

Global engineering execution depends on erosion of technological barriers
to communication. As an example, Bechtel maintains low-cost engineering
centers around the globe, linked by state-of-the-art telecommunications,
allowing around-the-clock execution.

Global financing is made possible by the erosion of institutional and
communication barriers. It stimulates creativity in providing custom-made
financing structures to satisfy the needs of all parties.

Erosion of international barriers to investment also provides
engineer/constructors with opportunities to become project developers and
builders where they have the in-country experience and performance
capability that sponsors demand.

New energy companies with new needs are emerging around the world. In many
countries, energy is moving from state-owned or franchised monopolies to
competitive private ownership. For example, there is a worldwide shift from
independent power projects that are financed by non-recourse debt secured
on power purchase agreements to merchant powerplants that sell electricity
on the spot market.

One approach to managing risk in competitive power markets is to secure
"anchor tenants" that will buy power regardless of market volatility.
Another is to integrate powerplants with fuel supply and electric power
trading and brokering. Engineer/constructors play an enabling role in
integrating not only the physical plants but also in bringing together fuel
and power generation sponsors who may have little familiarity with each
other’s business, thus reducing risks for all concerned.

Rapid currency depreciation is an important risk, particularly in
developing countries. Engineer/constructors with international experience
in minimizing and mitigating currency risk exposure can make a valuable
contribution in structuring procurement, execution and financing to reduce
the vulnerability of such projects.

Although oil is being discovered faster than it is being depleted and
production costs are declining, existing fields will be exhausted and
petroleum consumption will continue to grow. New fields will present
engineer/constructors with increasing technical, program management and
logistical challenges in enabling oil companies to work in deeper water,
harsher terrestrial environments and more remote locations. These
conditions will put a premium on generating innovative solutions and
managing complexity.

Furthermore, notes Bechtel, technology is driving down the break-even point
of production from previously uneconomical sources of hydrocarbons, such as
tar sands and heavy oil. Also, advances in the chemical conversion of
natural-gas-to-middle-distillates will probably result in commercial-scale
production in the next decade.

These new technologies will require engineer/constructors to be agents of
change by developing innovative ways to reduce costs through creative
engineering and project management. Equity participation and financing
assistance on the part of engineer/constructors may be a requirement to
participate in some of these projects. This will prove an opportunity as
well as a risk.

Proven technologies also present technical challenges. For example, most
easy liquefied natural gas opportunities have been developed. Future
expansion depends on developing smaller plants to match smaller fields,
largely through proprietary technology.

Environmental issues present enormous technical challenges for
engineer/constructors, which must develop and maintain the capability to
react to the requirements of the energy industries. Combining affordable
energy with environmental quality is an ongoing quest for prosperous
countries and it is gaining in importance in the developing world. In
reacting to this quest, engineer/constructors must have the technological
prowess needed. But in addition they must be sensitive to difficult choices
between environmental quality and other concerns.

 

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From LINVENT at aol.com Wed Nov 14 07:05:59 2001
From: LINVENT at aol.com (LINVENT@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:45 2004
Subject: GAS-L: BECHTEL COMMENTS ON SYNTHETIC FUELS
Message-ID: <38.1ee2c9e7.2923b815@aol.com>

Dear Peter,
Bechtel has an interesting point. It means that the administration of
projects for Bechtel is maintained in their SF office, and that they can use
cheap labor and financing from anywhere in the world to do projects with.
That means my buddies in Houston who have built their businesses on supplying
petroleum industry process equipment are going to get their brains beat out
by the Koreans who are not only beating them on steel prices, but also
financing the steel and concrete projects which are coming up. The Mexican
steel companies in Monterey are closing down because the Koreans are likewise
beating their prices. Mexican refineries being built by Koreans with Korean
financing.
Do you think that Bechtel is going to work on developing a biomass
project in Belize? The Koreans? No. Big money begets big money, these are
little money projects.
Indeed synthetic fuels technology has dropped the cost, but so have
economic conditions arising from heavy duty government subsidized companies
like the Koreans and the Chinese. If the US were to subsidize the companies
the same way, there would be a much better standard of living in the US. The
Japanese have run out of money to subsidize their businesses the way they
used to. So will the Koreans, but for now, the cycle is moving through their
economy.
It is interesting that they quote Schultz. He, Baker, Weinberger, were
all on Bechtel's board of Directors prior to the Reagan administration. They
go in and out as appropriate.
The only way I see to do an end run around the big boys is to make a
cheaper version of what they do that works at smaller scale and take their
feedstock away from them.
The long term impact of exporting jobs is also exporting know how. This
has a short term benefit but long term demise of any industry which conducts
business this way and is poor management.

 

Sincerely,
Leland T. Taylor
President
Thermogenics Inc.
7100-2nd St. NW, Albuquerque, New Mexico 87107
phone 505-761-1454 fax 505-761-1456
Attached files are zipped and can be decompressed with <A
HREF="http://www.aladdinsys.com/expander/">www.aladdinsys.com/expander/ </A>

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From kchishol at fox.nstn.ca Wed Nov 14 08:45:32 2001
From: kchishol at fox.nstn.ca (Kevin Chisholm)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:45 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Molten Metal Gasifiers
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20011113163643.009e1db0@wgs1.btl.net>
Message-ID: <000f01c16d12$37c6d120$2719059a@kevin>

Dear Peter

This is indeed a clever process, attractively and understandably presented.
However, it still boils down to the fundamental water gas shift reaction.
That being the case, there would not appear to be any fundamental change in
large scale hydrogen production costing. Or, am I missing something?

Kindest regards,

Kevin Chisholm

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Singfield" <snkm@btl.net>
To: <gasification@crest.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2001 7:31 PM
Subject: GAS-L: Molten Metal Gasifiers

>
> Take a good look at this page:
>
> http://www.alchemix.net/products.htm
>
> A wonderful solution to making H2!! Using any heat source -- including
> solar -- but you need CO as well.
>
> Click on the diagram -- the only explanation.
>
> Or try this Url direct:
>
> http://www.alchemix.net/products.htm#
>
> They are not letting out much -- but more than enough for me to work out
> the rest.
>
> I once proposed the same -- using Aluminum -- but impractical to reduce
the
> aluminum oxide after -- this is the solution!
>
> Should we start a discussion on this "new" process?? It is geared so
> perfectly to biomass -- partial combustion -- gasification.
>
> Product would be pumped through the tin metal bath -- reducing the tin
> oxide -- and would still burn as fuel (the H2) to fuel this reaction on
the
> other end.
>
> Actually -- dirty down-draft gasifier would work perfect for this
> application -- most of the product fueling the H2 production -- some of it
> parging after -- then remixed with regular product -- to be burned.
>
> I doubt you need worry about tars -- they will gasify in the molten tin
> bath -- enriching product.
>
> Well, by now half this list or more must be very confused -- check out the
> above url -- maybe -- we will be "allowed" to discuss this further??
>
>
> Peter/Belize
>
> -
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>
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>
>
>
>
>

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From snkm at btl.net Wed Nov 14 10:46:02 2001
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:45 2004
Subject: GAS-L: BECHTEL COMMENTS ON SYNTHETIC FUELS
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20011114082408.009001e0@wgs1.btl.net>

 

Dear Tom T.

At 07:05 AM 11/14/2001 EST, you wrote:
>Dear Peter,
> Bechtel has an interesting point. It means that the administration of
>projects for Bechtel is maintained in their SF office, and that they can use
>cheap labor and financing from anywhere in the world to do projects with.
>That means my buddies in Houston who have built their businesses on
supplying
>petroleum industry process equipment are going to get their brains beat out
>by the Koreans who are not only beating them on steel prices, but also
>financing the steel and concrete projects which are coming up. The Mexican
>steel companies in Monterey are closing down because the Koreans are
likewise
>beating their prices. Mexican refineries being built by Koreans with Korean
>financing.

First I have heard of this -- but yes -- that is the plan -- in general.
Trying to do anything "concrete" in the US is going to be hard -- to
expensive. Your pricing yourselves out of the world market. Only option is
to operate off-shore.

> Do you think that Bechtel is going to work on developing a biomass
>project in Belize? The Koreans? No. Big money begets big money, these are
>little money projects.

That is very true. There is no real incentive. We need to create small
engineering firms spread about the planet. Beats stagnating in a super
corporation world.

Here is a rough plan.

You design from any position you feel comfortable with. You prototype
off-shore -- much less costs -- much less regulations. (Mind you -- one
must build that prototype works -- it will not be found)

You then have product manufactured in a 3rd world powerhouse -- China,
Korea, Taiwan, India, Brazil -- etc. For the "Americas" -- Brazil has great
potential.

> Indeed synthetic fuels technology has dropped the cost, but so have
>economic conditions arising from heavy duty government subsidized companies
>like the Koreans and the Chinese. If the US were to subsidize the companies
>the same way, there would be a much better standard of living in the US. The
>Japanese have run out of money to subsidize their businesses the way they
>used to. So will the Koreans, but for now, the cycle is moving through their
>economy.

All true -- but I am looking more at the small is beautiful market. That
still is a relatively open playing field. And targeted for 3rd world
consumption. Specifically -- biomass to liquid fuels on the "rancher" level
of investment. Actually -- you are already working in that market niche.
But the product you market is a little of a hard sell. Mostly for fuel
conditioning problems.

There is a lot of technology out there that can be applied to this area.
The big guys are not interested in the peanut market. You are already
involved with one such of potential market value -- the biomass to ethanol
process.

> It is interesting that they quote Schultz. He, Baker, Weinberger, were
>all on Bechtel's board of Directors prior to the Reagan administration. They
>go in and out as appropriate.

Yes, I don't believe Bechtel was commenting on what their people should be
doing -- but rather on what all engineers -- now thrown out of work (so to
speak) should be looking into for future employment. And yes -- extremely
difficult line to cross -- with a huge attrition rate -- I am sure.

Survival of the fittest and all of that.

Bechtel is simply pointing out some facts of modern business life.

> The only way I see to do an end run around the big boys is to make a
>cheaper version of what they do that works at smaller scale and take their
>feedstock away from them.

Yes -- that is one good plan of "attack". But must be accomplished from the
side lines. They'll smash you flat if you try anything such as that in a
high profile area.

Also -- biomass -- as a rule -- does not travel well. So is always
restricted to as 20 mile (as example) circle around the processing plant.
Though the product can be exported -- as it is concentrated energy,

> The long term impact of exporting jobs is also exporting know how. This
>has a short term benefit but long term demise of any industry which conducts
>business this way and is poor management.
>

Especially as today's world is flooded with pirates! The answer is to
diversify your supplier/manufacture so that no one can undercut your pricing.

With Afghanistan coming under "control" the US is to be rewarded with a new
30 year supply of economic oil. This will allow the present situation --
technical stagnation in the synthetic fuels (including even your producer
gas devices) for 30 more years!

Are you young enough to wait that out?? Are you willing to take a
"straight" job and just get fat and lazy??

A song writer has to write songs -- even if he does not get paid for it.
For some, innovation is like writing songs. It is not for the money -- but
rather for the thrill.

You must either find lots of money -- so you can continue innovating in the
US -- get very independently wealthy to afford this "hobby" -- or move to
an environment where innovation is not such a costly process. That is what
Bechtel is commenting on. Probably because they will be first in line to
pick up whatever beneficial innovations occur as a result -- where as now
-- they are looking at a huge desert with no valid innovative processes in
place.

Necessity is the mother of invention! But with 30 extra years of unlimited
oil staring us in the face -- what need of innovation -- all necessities
are met.

Course -- there is still the "gimmick" market -- Hoola-Hoop style stuff.

You could make little model gasifiers to sell as toys?? I notice the
companies making toy steam power plants are doing very well.

Bottom line:

I doubt we will be seeing techno-energy billionaires -- along the lines of
Bill Gates and the microprocessing "revolution" shooting up in the next 30
or more years. Not with all this oil we are swimming in.

Time to change the game plan -- and that is all that Bechtel is saying.

That being -- people like you should be getting together with people like me.

Re:

"For engineer/constructors to compete effectively, says Bechtel, they must
cultivate what Bechtel’s past president and former United States Secretary
of State G. Shultz has characterized as "a global reach and a local touch."
Local presence is important for frequent and open communication with
customers, for management of local contractors and suppliers, for
accommodating local customs and institutions and for ensuring quality and
integrity."

I know -- big job!! But when has it ever been "easy"??? Start small -- make
a market penetration. Such as importing those economic Chinese Diesel power
plants -- 8 kw -- 34% over all efficiencies -- then apply a line of small
gasifiers -- then change cylinder heads and turn these same blocks into
highly efficient -- refrigerant working fluid -- Rankine Cycle gensets --
so any quality product gas can be used. Meaning no fuel conditioning --
humidities to 60%!! Or -- even -- a simple and efficient combustion stove
-- along the lines of wood stoves now on market in the US for home heating
-- with catalytic converters -- well over 85% thermal efficiencies.

You are looking out over a desert -- I see the garden of Eden!

For sure -- ethanol has great potential - especially in view of the new
fuel cells coming on line.

Which also can be made in China!

So these items will not have approval for marketing in the modern
industrial nations -- who cares -- stay with 3rd world market. True --
can't make that billion -- but well fed for writing song just the same --
and a new song every day!

Peter

>
>
>
>Sincerely,
>Leland T. Taylor
> President
> Thermogenics Inc.
>7100-2nd St. NW, Albuquerque, New Mexico 87107
>phone 505-761-1454 fax 505-761-1456
>

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From snkm at btl.net Wed Nov 14 11:43:50 2001
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:45 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Molten Metal Gasifiers
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20011114093452.009e6b80@wgs1.btl.net>

 

Dear Kevin;

At 09:42 AM 11/14/2001 -0400, you wrote:
>Dear Peter
>
>This is indeed a clever process, attractively and understandably presented.
>However, it still boils down to the fundamental water gas shift reaction.
>That being the case, there would not appear to be any fundamental change in
>large scale hydrogen production costing. Or, am I missing something?
>
>Kindest regards,
>
>Kevin Chisholm
>

I have been "chatting" off list about this with a few -- and yes -- came to
the same conclusion -- along the lines of steam reforming. As Tom T. puts
it -- lots of techno-fraud out there searching for sucker money!

Taking as a given -- and please -- someone correct me is that is wrong --
"burning" tin to its oxide will be exothermic. Reducing tin will be
endothermic. And -- the energy involved will be equal on both sides of the
transformations.

Some of the advantages of doing this with tin. No need of high pressures.

They are "secret" regarding operation temps. But I suppose burning tin in
hydrogen di-oxide (H2O) is along the lines of burning aluminum with iron
oxide -- or as in "Thermite" -- which is a fast -- and very exothermic
reaction -- reaching extremely high temperatures!

The "trick" here is that liquid metal baths have two things going for them.

Heat transmission rates are orders faster than normal -- so much so you can
say "instantaneous" with out cracking a smile.

Further -- they can soak up a lot of heat with out "bumping" temperatures.
Just use the appropriate amount of liquid metal bath -- a 100 F raise in
temperature -- as example -- would required a lot of BTUs.

Easy to balance this out. The steam injection rate is very and precisely
controllable.

Controlling such a reaction would be simple. Monitor temperatures -- turn
steam off when such and such temperature is reached -- then inject CO --
which is endothermic reaction -- reducing tin oxide to tin -- and bring
down temps to set point. Then repeat.

Actual application has a few questions.

No problem getting pure steam -- but how easy is it to find pure CO?? And
where to get it??

Say we use a gasifier. Will pushing product through the tin bath work??
That is nitrogen, H2, CO, CO2, H20, O2 and assorted other traces? Or must
one separate and purify that CO part of the product??

Further -- what to do with all the heat from the gasifier?? The reversible
transformation process is an energy equilibrium. So right away -- binary
system.

As in use that heat -- running a rankine cycle device -- to make power.

The simplest application of this process is using the H2 to run a fuel cell.

So now -- we run batch mode -- use the actual rankine cycle power for
running things then -- compress the H2 for fuel cell operation later.

So now -- you fire up an arm load of wood into this device in the morning
-- it shuts down at a set time -- spurging with CO (which also has to be
compressed and stored) and you run as far as you can (maybe days??) on the
H2 and fuel cell??

Advantage of all this run-around??

Easy -- no need for battery pack!

As in you could do the same with a gasifier running a rankine cycle power
plant and charging batteries -- or a gasifier running an IC engine charging
batteries.

Plus -- it is transportable -- the tank of H2 could be traded -- or used to
run ones car -- easier than moving batteries around?

How expensive would such a device be though??

Plus -- with pure H2 available -- would it be easy to convert gasifier
product to liquid synfuels?? But is it worth it on "small" scale??

Right now -- H2 converts to electricity at better than 60% efficiencies.

One simply needs a little heat to make up for small losses -- and CO.

Problem - where -- how -- to get the CO -- how much is the "cost" to
compress and store it??

What is the best we can do for converting biomass to CO??

First experiment would be to take the high tar product of a updraft (or
cross draft) gasifier and pass that through a tin metal bath loaded with
tin oxides.

And hope it does not explode!

See if that reduces the tin -- and see how well the resulting product --
after passing through the tin -- burns.

Then vacating the reaction chamber and passing steam back through to
generate pure H2.

No need of a compressor to store the H2 at high pressure -- either! That
will come automatically.

Generating steam is not such a problem -- little is required (this is not a
steam engine) -- a simple coil style flash tube boiler immersed in the
liquid metal bath.

There certainly will be no lack of heat!

And -- as far as that goes -- why not heat the metal bath with combustion
of product gas -- increase flash tube capacity -- and use all the extra
steam so produced to run the rankine cycle device as well as bleeding some
off for reforming to H2??

Many ways to skin this hog --

The problem is "finding" an easy source of pressurized CO for the sparging
-- or tin oxide reduction cycle.

The big deal here is that we are taking -- as a "given" that CO passes
through a tin metal bath with tin oxides and reduces oxide to pure metal
again (with CO2 as the new product)

And finally -- is any of this valid for the extra effort involved?

And why go with tin for reforming? Easy -- you end up with pure H2 product
-- rather than in conventional reforming -- where you end up with a mix of
gasses -- and then the expense of seperating them -- and "purifying" them.

Peter

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From snkm at btl.net Wed Nov 14 15:24:12 2001
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:45 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Tin reformer details
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20011114133841.00909750@wgs1.btl.net>

 

Ok -- just typing the details -- as explained from the Alchemix site --
which is a graphic only -- no way to copy and paste.

Pure hydrogen (H2) is produced in a high temperature environment when water
(steam) is exposed to molten tin.

The oxygen in steam bonds with the tin to form tin oxide thus freeing the
hydrogen gas from the water molecule.

High temperature causes this reaction to occur very rapidly.

2(H20) + Sn = SnO2 + 2(H2)

The ability to reform tin from tin oxide is essential to the economic
production of hydrogen.

The transformation is achieved by sparging carbon monoxide (CO) through the
molten tin oxide. Since oxygen atoms are more strongly attracted to the CO
molecule than to the tin oxide molecule, the oxygen is stripped away from
the tin oxide transforming it back into pure tin.

In this way, the tin can be used again and again to bond with the oxygen in
steam and produce hydrogen.

2(CO) + SnO2 = Sn + 2CO2

******************

Ok -- now onto extracts from their "propaganda" --

************************

Hydrogen is currently produced almost entirely by means of steam methane
reformation (SMR). Compared to SMR, H2 Coal Refining has several major
advantages, the most fundamental of which is linked to the economics of
their respective feedstocks. SMR requires natural gas, which is more
expensive, price volatile and its supply is far less reliable than coal.
Although coal prices have risen sharply in recent months, demand is
specifically for low sulfur coal in a market driven by power generators
required to reduce sulfur emissions by Clean Air Act regulations. H2 Coal
Refining can efficiently and cleanly use virtually any coal, including high
sulfur coals, for which other uses are almost nonexistent. This weak demand
should allow long-term, low-cost supply contracts for high sulfur coal.

Furthermore, while SMR is restricted solely to natural gas/methane as a
feedstock, H2 Coal Refining can supplement coal with any number of organic
materials (hydrocarbons). These feedstocks can include typically low-cost
materials such as tar sands and petroleum coke. It can also include
materials available for no cost or even a negative cost when a tipping fee
is paid for removal. Examples include municipal waste, animal waste, tires,
medical waste, sewage sludge and hazardous wastes.

Currently, the projected cost of hydrogen from an H2 Coal Refinery is $0.04
per pound compared to production costs of $0.40 per pound using SMR
assuming the price of natural gas is $5.00 per MMBtu. Neither of these cost
estimates includes capital. Both assume credits for the current market
value of by-products -- fly ash and MRG in the case of H2 Coal Refining and
steam in the case of SMR.

*****************************

So -- promise of a 10 to 1 cost reduction!!!

*****************************

Alchemix's H2 Technologies division has applied for 4 patents with more
than 100 claims of novelty relating to the low cost production of clean
hydrogen and methane from coal. The aggregated technologies have been named
H2 Coal Refining.

*****************************

OK -- patent search time!! That should answer a lot of questions!!

*****************************

When hydrocarbons are placed into a pure hydrogen environment at high
temperature they will very quickly transform into methane gas. This is true
because methane is the most stable hydrocarbon and when less complete
hydrocarbons are exposed to unlimited hydrogen atoms they will add as many
to their structure as are required to get to methane.

*****************************

A hydrogenation chamber is basically a combustion chamber where dry organic
material is reduced chemically to methane CH4 instead of being burned. A
hydrogenation chamber and combustion chamber are similar in that both must
present maximum surface area of the material to be reacted (chemically
oxidized or reduced). So, depending upon the size, shape, or amount of
associated non-organic material, different configurations will prove more
or less effective. Experiments will prove which work best as hydrogenation
reactors for various feedstocks.

******************************

Even persistent (hard to break down) hydrocarbons such as PCB's, dioxins,
and nerve gas can be reduced to methane in the presence of hydrogen at
elevated temperature. This method is used commercially today by the United
States Department of Defense to eliminate toxic hydrocarbons.

******************************

When coal is hydrogenated, the ash and fixed carbon (non-volatile material)
contained in the coal are not transformed into methane. Instead, they will
form a low-sulfur coke that is a precursor for other valuable products. The
contaminants in coal such as fluorine, chlorine, sulfur, and nitrogen will
react in the gaseous state with hydrogen to form acid gases and ammonia.

******************************

Activated carbon produced from coconut husks often sells above $2,000 per ton.

******************************

It should be noted that the efficiency of conversion of thermal to
electrical energy for a combined cycle power plant is over 80% greater than
that of a coal fired boiler.

*****************************

Note here: Ergo Cornelius -- dual cycling with steam to refrigerant working
fluid (AKA -- geothermal power plant) You get to "top" twice. Another
subject -- for another day -- but an easy way to increase over all
efficiencies of that coal fired power plant quickly -- and without blowing
a fortune.

*****************************

As a practical matter, much of the current fleet of coal fired power
stations in the United States are very old and will require substantial
modification if they are to meet impending nitrous oxide (NOx) and mercury
emissions standards.

*****************************

Waste to Energy: A substantial portion of municipal waste is comprised of
hydrocarbons that become methane when exposed to hydrogen at high
temperatures. Methane can be burned in a combine cycle plant to produce
electricity cleanly and efficiently.

*****************************

Hydrogen (Fuel Cells): Pure hydrogen is used to fuel stationary and mobile
applications of fuel cells to generate usable energy with zero toxic
emissions. Small fuel cells generating power from remote locations, a
concept called "distributed generation", is currently a small but rapidly
growing market, especially for applications, such as back-up power for
sensitive electronics operations and hospitals, where power quality and
reliability are critical. In the more distant future, large fuel
cell-powered generating plants are expected to supply increasingly
significant amounts of electricity demand.

Hydrogen used in a fuel cell has the advantage of an energy conversion
efficiency that is 60% or greater as compared to less than 20% for
gasoline-powered internal combustion engines. Tail pipe emissions from fuel
cell powered vehicles consists of water vapor as opposed to the carbon
dioxide, carbon monoxide and particulates emitted from gasoline engines.

****************************

 

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From snkm at btl.net Wed Nov 14 17:03:33 2001
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:45 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Molten Metal gasifying
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20011114151212.0090ad30@wgs1.btl.net>

 

Researching!!

Nothing on Alchemix at the patent office -- but for the curious --

Hot to make pure synthesis gas from hydrocarbons in one fast step!

Peter / Belize

United States Patent 6,110,239
Malone , et al. August 29, 2000

Molten metal hydrocarbon gasification process

SUMMARY OF THE INVENTION

The present invention broadly comprises a process in which a high-purity,
high-pressure hydrogen-rich gas stream and a high-purity, high-pressure
carbon monoxide-rich gas stream are simultaneously produced separately and
continuously from a molten metal gasifier that contains at least two zones.
The need to separate or compress the gases in down-stream equipment is
thereby avoided. In one version of the process, the steps comprise (a)
introducing a hydrocarbon feed into a molten metal zone (the "feed zone")
operating at a pressure above 5 atmospheres absolute beneath the molten
metal surface and decomposing the hydrocarbon feed into hydrogen, which
leaves the feed zone as a hydrogen-rich gas, and into carbon, which
dissolves in the molten metal and increases the carbon concentration, but
never allowing the carbon concentration to exceeds its solubility limit in
the molten metal, (b) transferring a portion of the molten metal containing
a higher concentration of carbon from the feed zone to another molten metal
zone (the "oxidation zone") operating at a pressure above 5 atmospheres
absolute into which an oxygen-containing material is introduced beneath the
molten metal surface and which reacts with a portion of the carbon to form
a carbon monoxide-rich gas which leaves the oxidation zone, wherein the
carbon concentration in the molten metal is controlled so that it does not
reach the concentration at which the equilibrium oxygen concentration would
exceed its solubility limit in the molten metal and a separate iron oxide
phase would accumulate, (c) transferring at least a portion of the molten
metal which has a lower carbon concentration from the oxidation zone back
to the feed zone and (d) passing the separate high-pressure, high-purity
hydrogen-rich and carbon monoxide-rich gas streams out of their respective
zones, removing entrained dust and cooling the gas streams to temperatures
suitable for use in industrial processes.

******snipped******

DETAILED DESCRIPTION OF THE INVENTION

The invention provides process and apparatus for producing simultaneously a
high-purity, high-pressure hydrogen-rich gas stream and a high-purity,
high-pressure carbon monoxide-rich gas stream separately and continuously
using a molten metal gasifier that contains at least two zones, a "feed
zone" and an "oxidation zone", (or in a saving embodiment, a feed mode and
an oxidization mode) together with necessary ancillary equipment. Each zone
(mode) preferably operates at a pressure above 5 atmospheres absolute and
contains a bath of comprising molten iron and, possibly, other molten
metals, such as copper, zinc, chromium, manganese, nickel or other meltable
metal in which carbon is soluble. Preferably the bath contains at least 30
percent iron by weight. Depending upon the feed, the bath may also contain
slag components which, if present, preferably form a separate phase.

********snipped******

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From A.Weststeijn at epz.nl Thu Nov 15 05:54:35 2001
From: A.Weststeijn at epz.nl (Weststeijn A)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:45 2004
Subject: GAS-L: BECHTEL COMMENTS ON SYNTHETIC FUELS
Message-ID: <E1780666C205D211B6740008C728DBFE9F5257@sp0016.epz.nl>

Dear List,

A few remarks on big time contracting (where I spent some time in the past)
and renewables:

> Bechtel has an interesting point. It means that the administration of
> projects for Bechtel is maintained in their SF office, and that they can
> use
> cheap labor and financing from anywhere in the world to do projects with.
>
I don't know any better for at least the past 20 years.
Standard practice.

> That means my buddies in Houston who have built their businesses on
> supplying
> petroleum industry process equipment are going to get their brains beat
> out
> by the Koreans who are not only beating them on steel prices, but also
> financing the steel and concrete projects which are coming up.
>
The Koreans learned fast, but replicated what others did already.

> The Mexican steel companies in Monterey are closing down because the
> Koreans are likewise
> beating their prices. Mexican refineries being built by Koreans with
> Korean
> financing.
>
You bet. Like much of the Middle East petro-chemical facilities.
Cheap labor, cheap management, cheap materials, passable quality.

The same started to happen during the eighties with international civil
engineering contracts from Turkey's and Brazilian companies.
Big contractors, working on a general lower cost footing, delivering
passable work.

> Do you think that Bechtel is going to work on developing a biomass
> project in Belize? The Koreans? No. Big money begets big money, these are
> little money projects.
>
These guys will do it if they get the feel that there is a big new market
looming.
But the famous low prices only work if repetitive work processes can be
applied.
Biomass projects are at the starting curve of that development, and thereby
will not command rock bottom prices from anyone. Not from Bechtel, but not
from the Korean either.

> Indeed synthetic fuels technology has dropped the cost, but so have
> economic conditions arising from heavy duty government subsidized
> companies
> like the Koreans and the Chinese.
>
And the US from the Import-Export Bank?

> If the US were to subsidize the companies
> the same way, there would be a much better standard of living in the US.
>
Balloney. US companies get typically sponsored through the back door,
including through fat military contracts and protectionism on the home
front. And not only in the aircraft building section of the business.
Big difference between preaching and practice.
Some european contractors got in in certain specialized sections of the US
market, but little Japanese or Korean, as I recall.
Why?
Because they are less qualified?
Don't kid yourself.
Go and watch where the market is really open (which does not include the
continental US).

> The Japanese have run out of money to subsidize their businesses the way
> they
> used to. So will the Koreans, but for now, the cycle is moving through
> their
> economy.
>
I have worked closely with the Japanese "bechtel", called Chyoda.
These Japanese companies do well due to their much better developed system
of subcontracting, allowing them better quotes through continuity of
subcontracting businesses (motto "live and let live").
In contrast, western contractors are happy to bleed their subcontractors to
death, thereby throwing future cooperation potential away for the maximum
"quick buck" on the current project. The Quarter Reporting pressure is not
hampering the Japanese/Korean companies as much.
Don't underestimate the cultural differences allowing different management
strategies.

> The long term impact of exporting jobs is also exporting know how.
> This
> has a short term benefit but long term demise of any industry which
> conducts
> business this way and is poor management.
>
Also here: don't kid yourself.
US companies are unsurpassed in logistics (as is the US military).
US companies are not necessarily the world standard for know how on all
fronts, contrary to popular believe within the US itself.
>
To sum it up:
To get huge outfits like Bechtel involved (from whatever country of origin)
and make it worthwhile for them, there need to be equally large "principals"
letting the contracts. The potential big players in this renewables field
-on a global scale- might come from the side of the present day energy
companies (like BP/Amoco/Arco and RD/Shell), more so than from the side of
the present day utilities (which are mostly too fractionated or not global
in orientation).
Look how Shell and Bechtel cooperate already in large scale international
IPP (independent power producing). And how Shell Renewables looks for ways
to invest half a billion dollars wisely for building up a viable future
renewable energy business.

I don't mean to state here whether this approach (of going really big scale)
is good or bad for renewables development.
Too many sides to that question for now, ranging from practical to
philosophical.
But it is not out of the question that the Bechtel's of this world will
eventually play a role in industrializing renewable energy on behalf of "big
energy".

best regards,
Andries

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From tombreed at home.com Thu Nov 15 07:09:18 2001
From: tombreed at home.com (Thomas Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:45 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Molten Metal gasifying
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20011114151212.0090ad30@wgs1.btl.net>
Message-ID: <030201c16dca$58fa3ae0$18e5b618@lakwod3.co.home.com>

Dear Peter:

Sounds like a "paper patent" to me. Was it ever practiced? While molten
metal is sometimes a good heat transfer agent, it is hard to bring it into
intimate contact with gases which rise very fast due to density difference.

Did you ever try ice cubes on a red hot skillet? They last many minutes in
their dance of death...

TOM

TOM

> Peter / Belize
>
>
> United States Patent 6,110,239
> Malone , et al. August 29, 2000
>
>
> Molten metal hydrocarbon gasification process
>
> SUMMARY OF THE INVENTION
>
> The present invention broadly comprises a process in which a high-purity,
> high-pressure hydrogen-rich gas stream and a high-purity, high-pressure
> carbon monoxide-rich gas stream are simultaneously produced separately and
> continuously from a molten metal gasifier that contains at least two
zones.
> The need to separate or compress the gases in down-stream equipment is
> thereby avoided. In one version of the process, the steps comprise (a)
> introducing a hydrocarbon feed into a molten metal zone (the "feed zone")
> operating at a pressure above 5 atmospheres absolute beneath the molten
> metal surface and decomposing the hydrocarbon feed into hydrogen, which
> leaves the feed zone as a hydrogen-rich gas, and into carbon, which
> dissolves in the molten metal and increases the carbon concentration, but
> never allowing the carbon concentration to exceeds its solubility limit in
> the molten metal, (b) transferring a portion of the molten metal
containing
> a higher concentration of carbon from the feed zone to another molten
metal
> zone (the "oxidation zone") operating at a pressure above 5 atmospheres
> absolute into which an oxygen-containing material is introduced beneath
the
> molten metal surface and which reacts with a portion of the carbon to form
> a carbon monoxide-rich gas which leaves the oxidation zone, wherein the
> carbon concentration in the molten metal is controlled so that it does not
> reach the concentration at which the equilibrium oxygen concentration
would
> exceed its solubility limit in the molten metal and a separate iron oxide
> phase would accumulate, (c) transferring at least a portion of the molten
> metal which has a lower carbon concentration from the oxidation zone back
> to the feed zone and (d) passing the separate high-pressure, high-purity
> hydrogen-rich and carbon monoxide-rich gas streams out of their respective
> zones, removing entrained dust and cooling the gas streams to temperatures
> suitable for use in industrial processes.
>
> ******snipped******
>
> DETAILED DESCRIPTION OF THE INVENTION
>
> The invention provides process and apparatus for producing simultaneously
a
> high-purity, high-pressure hydrogen-rich gas stream and a high-purity,
> high-pressure carbon monoxide-rich gas stream separately and continuously
> using a molten metal gasifier that contains at least two zones, a "feed
> zone" and an "oxidation zone", (or in a saving embodiment, a feed mode and
> an oxidization mode) together with necessary ancillary equipment. Each
zone
> (mode) preferably operates at a pressure above 5 atmospheres absolute and
> contains a bath of comprising molten iron and, possibly, other molten
> metals, such as copper, zinc, chromium, manganese, nickel or other
meltable
> metal in which carbon is soluble. Preferably the bath contains at least 30
> percent iron by weight. Depending upon the feed, the bath may also contain
> slag components which, if present, preferably form a separate phase.
>
> ********snipped******
>
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>
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>
>

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From snkm at btl.net Thu Nov 15 09:23:36 2001
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:45 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Molten Metal gasifying
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20011115080733.00915c10@wgs1.btl.net>

 

Dear Tom R.

Yes -- this is excepted from a patent from the US patent office. Which has
all such patents on line now.

Further, you are right regarding the bubbles -- and numerous other patents
address that problem in detail.

As a whole, using an extremely hot liquid iron bath under pressure is a
complicated procedure.

The tin reformer catalyst is much simple. Further, it operates on entirely
different principles. Though the question of bubbles is still there.

If I wished to intimately mix a gas with a liquid -- I would be spraying a
fine mist of liquid into the gas.

Another method would be passing the gas over a large surface area of the
liquid.

But both are supposing that liquid would evaporate into gas. Which is not
the case???

Then there is stirring???

Your right -- mixing may be a problem.

Peter

 

At 04:40 AM 11/15/2001 -0700, you wrote:
>Dear Peter:
>
>Sounds like a "paper patent" to me. Was it ever practiced? While molten
>metal is sometimes a good heat transfer agent, it is hard to bring it into
>intimate contact with gases which rise very fast due to density difference.
>
>Did you ever try ice cubes on a red hot skillet? They last many minutes in
>their dance of death...
>
>TOM
>
>TOM
>
>> Peter / Belize
>>
>>
>> United States Patent 6,110,239
>> Malone , et al. August 29, 2000
>>
>>
>> Molten metal hydrocarbon gasification process
>>
>> SUMMARY OF THE INVENTION
>>
>> The present invention broadly comprises a process in which a high-purity,
>> high-pressure hydrogen-rich gas stream and a high-purity, high-pressure
>> carbon monoxide-rich gas stream are simultaneously produced separately and
>> continuously from a molten metal gasifier that contains at least two
>zones.

*****snipped*******

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From LINVENT at aol.com Thu Nov 15 14:01:23 2001
From: LINVENT at aol.com (LINVENT@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:46 2004
Subject: GAS-L: BECHTEL COMMENTS ON SYNTHETIC FUELS
Message-ID: <129.791c56a.29256ad3@aol.com>

Dear Andries,
I commend you on the grasp of the contracting/engineering industry. I
have a lot to learn in this regard. One thing which Bechtel has going for it
which others have not been able to muster is huge political clout. This has
given it entry into the world class operations and kept others out fairly
well.
Unfortunately for small operations, virtually all of the same components
are still needed as larger projects and this has kept the biomass programs at
a low level.
One specific instance which biomass has suffered immeasurably is the
pricing of power.
As an example, a major university in California was donated a 20 MWe
biomass power plant, stoker-boiler-turbine. It sells to the grid. The
operating cost is $.045 and are selling the power to the grid at $.038,
losing money on every kilowatt sold. That is without debt service cost.
Imagine the cost with debt service cost. Ouch! So, this is a major reason why
biomass is not particularly exciting to project developers. Of course, the
utilities are trying to recoup their losses so the retail costs are way up
there.

Sincerely,
Leland T. Taylor
President
Thermogenics Inc.
7100-2nd St. NW, Albuquerque, New Mexico 87107
phone 505-761-1454 fax 505-761-1456
Attached files are zipped and can be decompressed with <A
HREF="http://www.aladdinsys.com/expander/">www.aladdinsys.com/expander/ </A>

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From CAVM at aol.com Thu Nov 15 14:24:26 2001
From: CAVM at aol.com (CAVM@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:46 2004
Subject: GAS-L: BECHTEL COMMENTS ON SYNTHETIC FUELS
Message-ID: <3d.147809c4.2925705d@aol.com>

In a message dated 11/15/2001 1:06:57 PM Central Standard Time,
LINVENT@aol.com writes:

<< One specific instance which biomass has suffered immeasurably is the
pricing of power.
As an example, a major university in California was donated a 20 MWe
biomass power plant, stoker-boiler-turbine. It sells to the grid. The
operating cost is $.045 and are selling the power to the grid at $.038,
losing money on every kilowatt sold. That is without debt service cost.
Imagine the cost with debt service cost. Ouch! So, this is a major reason
why
biomass is not particularly exciting to project developers. Of course, the
utilities are trying to recoup their losses so the retail costs are way up
there.
>>
Tom,

I think this was an old wood fired plant which was unused and unwanted by the
owner who donated the facility for the tax deduction just before the power
crisis hit California. From what I know of the sister to this plant it was
in good condition but had problems with biomass supply. It should not cost
$.045 to operate and buy fuel. I suspect that the university cost accounting
includes a few non-related costs in this figure. Plus, selling to the grid
in California is weak marketing since retail customers are plentiful with
$.10 the competing rate.

We are recommending to a client of ours that they buy the sister plant and we
expect them to do very well with it.

Cornelius A. Van Milligen
Kentucky Enrichment Inc.

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From c.downing at sri.org.au Thu Nov 15 15:02:10 2001
From: c.downing at sri.org.au (Chris Downing)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:46 2004
Subject: GAS-L: The real reason why biomass has not competed
Message-ID: <OF26A81F29.8FFF8C7D-ON4A256B05.006D8329@sri.org.au>

 

Let's face it, the real reason why fossil fuels have beaten biomass in the
past is energy density (and the neglect of the total environmental cost of
released CO2, etc.). When the energy density of coal is around 21000
MJ/m3, and an abundant biomass such as bagasse is around 1950 MJ/m3, coal
wins hands down, 11:1!!

Regards,
Chris Downing

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From A.Weststeijn at epz.nl Thu Nov 15 17:05:16 2001
From: A.Weststeijn at epz.nl (Weststeijn A)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:46 2004
Subject: GAS-L: The real reason why biomass has not competed
Message-ID: <E1780666C205D211B6740008C728DBFE9F525B@sp0016.epz.nl>

Dear Chris,

You write:

> Let's face it, the real reason why fossil fuels have beaten biomass in the
> past is energy density (and the neglect of the total environmental cost of
> released CO2, etc.).
>
I can agree with your observation as long as "density" is translated into
costs. That is true now and I presume was true in the past as well.
Density in itself only plays a practical role in sizing, and as such of
course is the cost determining factor both in transportation and conversion.
But in fact not the final limitation.

If unlimited low-density biomass was to be available for free at the gate of
the power plant: watch and see all those biomass plants pop up! That lower
density would be technically accommodated, as would be the added capital
charges for the more sizable equipment.

However, since the price at the gate for biomass in a ready-to-get-fired
shape is usually far from free, the extra capital charges are not adequately
compensated by lower fuel charges.
It all hangs in the balance: fuel charges versus capital charges, since
operations (salaries) and maintenance do not -by comparison- differ that
much.

> When the energy density of coal is around 21000
> MJ/m3, and an abundant biomass such as bagasse is around 1950 MJ/m3, coal
> wins hands down, 11:1!!
>
How about the ultimate example: nuclear fuel. One third of the tip of your
pink is good for 1 ton of steam coal. Now how about that for a density
multiplier. Such a plant is cheap to run in fuel but expensive to own in
interest. The balance of the two charges turning out on the average just
below coal plants.

A full sized professional biomass plant is really not so cheap to own given
its output and can only afford a modest biofuel price to balance in the
present competitive grid environment.
When the biofuel price goes up something has to give, either in higher green
kWh proceeds, in tax deductions or in partial subsidized investment costs.

Although we likely mean the same, I would not like to see headlines in the
papers reading "density biomass found too low, sustainable energy programs
now seriously endangered".
The cost price balance (or equation) is rather more complicated.

best regards,
Andries Weststeijn

 

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From kchishol at fox.nstn.ca Thu Nov 15 18:30:21 2001
From: kchishol at fox.nstn.ca (Kevin Chisholm)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:46 2004
Subject: GAS-L: The real reason why biomass has not competed
In-Reply-To: <OF26A81F29.8FFF8C7D-ON4A256B05.006D8329@sri.org.au>
Message-ID: <005101c16e2d$0edc8040$c119059a@kevin>

Dear Chris

Coal weighs about 80 pounds per cubic foot, and wood chips about 40 lbs per
cubic foot. (more or less.) Coal has about 26 million BTU per ton, and fresh
wood chips have about 6500 BTU/pound, or say 13 milion BTU/Short ton.

Wood has half the heat per ton and twice the volume pre ton (more or less).
This suggests that the energy density is 1/4 that of coal.

Why do we differ???

Kevin Chisholm
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Downing" <c.downing@sri.org.au>
To: <gasification@crest.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2001 4:03 PM
Subject: GAS-L: The real reason why biomass has not competed

>
> Let's face it, the real reason why fossil fuels have beaten biomass in the
> past is energy density (and the neglect of the total environmental cost of
> released CO2, etc.). When the energy density of coal is around 21000
> MJ/m3, and an abundant biomass such as bagasse is around 1950 MJ/m3, coal
> wins hands down, 11:1!!
>
> Regards,
> Chris Downing
>
>
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>
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>
>
>
>

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From A.Weststeijn at epz.nl Thu Nov 15 18:55:12 2001
From: A.Weststeijn at epz.nl (Weststeijn A)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:46 2004
Subject: GAS-L: BECHTEL COMMENTS ON SYNTHETIC FUELS
Message-ID: <E1780666C205D211B6740008C728DBFE9F525D@sp0016.epz.nl>

Dear Leland,

You say:
> One thing which Bechtel has going for it which others have not been able
> to muster is huge political clout. This has given it entry into the world
> class operations and kept others out fairly well.
>
This is very true.
In the engineering contracting world Bechtel stands out by two aspects:

1- it is privately owned which is rather unusual in this business. This must
have an definite impact on the way decisions are made and risks accepted.
Appointing directors with Washington D.C. track record can be decided in
small committee.

2- it is an international player in the fields of both process engineering
and civil engineering. The international competition (in the top league) is
usually working in one of these main fields only.

Recently, an international competitor to Bechtel was created (in the US)
when Washington International was founded by combining the civil engineering
business of Morrison Knutsen (Boise, Idaho) with the process+power
engineering business of Raytheon.
Now also a major multi-engineering/contractor, and also privately owned.

Funny thing is that Bechtel now indicates the need for local representation
(like in "think global, act local").
The big energy and chemical conglomerates as well as some manufacturing
companies, have just returned from that model. Gone back from a multitude of
distributed "national companies" all reporting to corporate head quarters,
to an organization of global divisions along business unit lines.
What's in a name...

> Unfortunately for small operations, virtually all of the same
> components
> are still needed as larger projects and this has kept the biomass programs
> at a low level.
>
You mean that biomass programs are delayed by manufacturing priorities given
to large projects?
In all honesty: the single determining factor will be the sales volume at
stake for that particular equipment vendor. And perhaps his long term
positioning strategy (if he has one).
To set relative priority the equipment vendor will measure the biomass
purchase order value against his annual turn-over.
And let's not forget the market situation (even big equipment vendors
sometimes can get hungry ... ).
>
> One specific instance which biomass has suffered immeasurably is the
> pricing of power.
>
Indeed. Pricing remains the key.
And as much as it is an open door: in the end political conditions determine
the "externalities" here. In other words: what does the voter find it worth,
what do the polls say, what is the acting government willing to push from
within etc.
By definition a slow process, taking years if not decades to take hold, and
to have people perceive higher costs of sustainable power as kind of a
preventive maintenance cost.
As regional political processes it will by definition not be fully
synchronized world wide.
Too bad, but plenty of other examples of that too where still ongoing
movement can be seen.

Perhaps the two best measuring sticks for world wide synchronization in the
biomass field are the depletion of fossil fuels and the CO2+greenhouse
issue.
Both widely debated (to say it politely).
That doesn't mean there can't be a process of convergence of policies.
In my view, with some ups and downs, there actually has been noticeable
convergence over the past 2 or 3 decades on the issue of sustainable (and
renewable) energy policies. It looks to me that the direction is firmly set,
now we have to work on the rate of change.

And look at wind energy for a practical example.
I vividly remember -only a few years ago- when it was "news" when a single
wind turbine was sold.
Nowadays it ought to be at least 10 windmills to get mentioned, and perhaps
a park of 100 to classify as "news".
Eventually, with biomass we will see a similar pattern I'm sure.
>
> As an example, a major university in California was donated a 20 MWe
> biomass power plant, stoker-boiler-turbine. It sells to the grid. The
> operating cost is $.045 and are selling the power to the grid at $.038,
> losing money on every kilowatt sold. That is without debt service cost.
> Imagine the cost with debt service cost. Ouch! So, this is a major reason
> why
> biomass is not particularly exciting to project developers.
> Of course, the utilities are trying to recoup their losses so the retail
> costs are way up
> there.
>
I have no easy solution for that plant if it has to compete outright and
unsupported (which it never can against large scale bulk power).
As far as the higher retail costs are concerned: biomass and other green
generators ought to be compared with the costs of the classic generators
(gas, oil, coal, nuclear). Retail costs charged by utilities (for transport,
administration and profit) should hardly factor in into the relative kWh
cost price comparison.
>
best regards,
Andries

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From snkm at btl.net Thu Nov 15 19:45:44 2001
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:46 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Perspective of wood down in Southern Belize
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20011115184143.009e9460@wgs1.btl.net>

 

OK listeroos -- this just came in regarding a fine description of timber
damage in Southern Belize after Hurricane Iris.

Remember -- a swath at least 20 miles wide by 40 miles long!

Long and sometimes off the topic -- but have not got time to edit it --
enjoy thinking of the zillions of watts that will be rotting to methane --
to increase global warming -- because everyone talks -- and nobody "can" do
anything.

We are a world of hypocrites!

Peter

This message sent from "Don E Wirtshafter" <don@hempery.com>:

Following is the report I turned into the Board of the Tropical Conservation
Foundation. I serve as Chairman. As I have previously written, the TCF
operates the Belize Agroforestry Research Center outside of San Pedro
Columbia in the Toledo District. We bought this farm because of its trees.
The previous owners had left most of them intact and it was a magnificent
showplace. We had about 75 acres under cultivation. Not just cacao and
coffee, but almost 300 other economic plants as well. BARC serves as a
education center. We have hosted permaculture classes, school groups,
environmental groups and researchers of all kinds. It is an especially
great place for birders.

On October 9th, I was in Washington, DC beginning to fight the DEA which on
that same day had issued a new interpretation of the law that made all of my
company's hemp foods illegal. Our inventory was now supposed to be
valueless and we were given 120 days to dispose it before the criminal
penalties (life in prison) would start coming down. This was done without
notice to the industry or any opportunity for a hearing or even
negotiations. In the midst of that shock, I was distracted watching
Hurricane Iris creep ever more southernly in its path. I could tell from
the Internet that we were getting slammed. Still it took me almost three
weeks to clear my schedule so I could see the damage for myself and begin
the clean-up.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------

Dear Board,

I am back from BARC and have much to report. Words can't really do it so
you are really going to have to wait for my photos (expected Monday) or see
it for yourselves. We also have to schedule a meeting and I am hoping we
can do this on Tuesday evening, as I will be in Canada for the rest of the
week. So how about Purple Chopstix at 6:00 pm? This so far is okay with
Mark and Hank. I would invite you all here, but it is pretty cramped.

Getting to Belize was easy; Continental upgraded me to first class seats.
Customs was also a breeze. I paid about 10% duty on the new goods I carried
in. My friend Michael picked me up at the airport
and took me into Belize City to purchase supplies. We could not get into
Spanish Lookout because the water was too high so we completed our shopping
in Belmopan. The next morning, after helping Michael round up some horses
and his other chores, we headed down to San Pedro Columbia. We made it in
three hours from Belmopan, a ride that used to take closer to 10 hours
before the Southern Highway was paved.

I carried in a huge amount of supplies. Not knowing what we faced, I made
sure to have provisions for myself and a crew for 8 days. I certainly did
not want to be a burden to anyone local, they had enough problems. So
besides the chain saw and tarps and 240 pounds of gear I carried from the
states, I purchased in Belize a wide assortment of food items, 5 gallons of
gas, chain oil
and engine oil, 5 gallons of water, 50 pounds of nails, a huge assortment of
tools and many other provisions and gifts. It was quite a while till we got
this all hauled up to the new building.

I knew we were in trouble when I saw Big Falls. It was also in the direct
center of the hurricane. Most every house was damaged or destroyed
including Mr. King's modern home next to the Texaco station. Every tree of
any size was on its side except for some whose trunks were still standing
but had been snapped off 10 feet in the air. Only the coconut trees were
standing.

Columbia was no better. Most every house had some damage. Many were gone
altogether. Even the church, where many people sought shelter from the
storm, had lost about 1/3 of its roof. Eladio lost his thatch house and his
kitchen and lost some of the roof of his new concrete house. All over
Columbia there were signs of new construction. White tarp roofs were the
norm.

It was great getting back to our parking spot by the river. Mrs. Marie was
sitting in her usual spot on her porch, almost like she was waiting for us.
Dolis soon walked by on his way into town. He was quite happy to see us and
immediately turned around and helped make our trip up the river much easier.
Jorge quickly greeted us and so we got to unload the weighty items into
Jorge's dory and then drive Michael's truck to the end of the new road by
Alfonso Chi's house. It was then just a quick walk down the hill to our
usual river crossing.

The river was quite swollen from the recent rains, though not as high as it
gets during the July/August peak of the rainy season. It was full of tree
limbs making navigation difficult. It also was not near as fun to swim in.
The current was strong and it was quite chocked with sticks. There was no
place to enter the river where you did not have to climb over a pile of
wood.

The best news was that Dolis got the spring water lines repaired. We had
running water
to the drying slab near his house that served as the washing spot for our
whole stay. My water filter got smashed by the airline, but it did not
matter as the spring was running clean and gave me no problems.

We barely had time to survey the damage before dark. Our main building was
destroyed and our second building had extensive damage. The place I would
have sheltered during the storm, behind a concrete block wall, proved to be
quite unsafe as the wall had fallen smashing all of our bee equipment
underneath it. Dolis's kitchen was destroyed as was the bamboo house.
Dolis's ancient old house, that was already on its last leg from termites,
survived well and sheltered the frightened family during the storm.
Michael and I swept out our one surviving building and set up camp. The
solar panels were not charging the batteries, so we had no choice but to
quickly go to sleep after dark.

In the morning, the full impact of the destruction hit us. Trees were down
everywhere. We bought the BARC property because of its huge trees. As far
as the eye could see, they were all down. Twisted piles of trees wound
around trees lay everywhere. Our surviving building had trees piled up on
three sides of it. The concrete block wall in its lower floor was toppled
right on top of all the beekeeping equipment stored there. If I were there
in that storm, my most logical place to shelter would have been under that
wall. If so, I would have been dead. The composting privy had at least
seven big trees in a big jumble on its roof

When we went through the village, I had put out the word that I was hiring
helpers the next day. I especially wanted Eladio's help. I was quite
relieved to see a group of six men, including Eladio, walking up the path
ready for work the next morning. Our first priority was recovering the
herbarium. For those of you who have not seen it, Duane Houck spent a huge
amount of time collecting pressing and cataloging the Flora of Belize. It
was several hundred different plants all arranged by family in a
professional herbarium cabinet that he drove down from Tennessee. It had
been located on the second floor of the main building and now was somewhere
under several feet of wood and thatch rubble.

It took us most of the first day to clear enough wood out of the way to get
to the herbarium. It had been swept off the second floor, landed hard on
its bottom and then absorbed the weight of the building falling on top of
it. It was lying on its back which meant that water was getting inside of
it and soaking the specimens and books stored inside. We pulled it to
safety and then began the three day long task of laying out the hundreds of
pages in the sun to dry. Because the cabinet was almost upside down, the da
mage was pretty much reserved to the families higher in the alphabetical
order. The A's and B's were severely damaged. The Compositaceae, the
largest family, had extensive damage. The D's through F's had some damage,
mostly water stains at the top of the page. Some of the Flora of Guatemala
books had some water damage, otherwise the collection was saved. The
cabinet itself got pretty bent up, but a lot of pounding got it to the point
where the door would close. We dried everything out and carried it to the
second floor of the new building. So, the collection was saved and is quite
useable.

The chain saw I carried down was really important. It was in use pretty
much 11 hours per day every day that I was there. There were just so many
trees down that you could not move around. It took several hours just to
clear a path from the original building to the newer building, a distance of
not more than 75 feet. Trees were also smashed onto the roof of the kitchen
structure. This damaged the roof and smashed the connections from the water
tank into the sinks.

The chainsaw the Duane carried down for Dolis was also working perfectly,
and this was important. It was not just simply cutting up trees, the trees
were all fallen and wrapped around each other. It was hard to tell which
branch was putting weight on which and which way a branch would twist as you
cut it. So it was a massive game of pick-up-sticks, the penalty for
guessing wrong is that your saw would get bound up in the cut. This was why
having two saws going was so important. There were times we had both saws
bound and then the machetes would rescue us.

In all of my time there, I had never used a chainsaw. I was impressed with
how easily these tropical hardwoods cut, as they say, like butter. I am
used to having to sharpen the teeth of my saw at each fill of gasoline, the
Eastern hardwoods I am used to are really hard and abrasive. But the
tropical hardwoods are actually really soft when green and I could go all
day without a sharpening. This is similar to the lesson I learned years ago
when I tried to chop the bush up north with a machette. The hardness will
tear up your hand in a few minutes.

After the first day of working on taking apart the downed building, we split
up into two crews. One continued to tear apart the thatch, it took a couple
of additional days to clean up the coffee below the building and then
mulching it with the massive amount of wet thatch we stripped from the roof.
When we stripped the roof off two years ago to re-thatch, it took only a few
hours. It was much harder to cut the thatch out of the collapsed rubble.
It took a crew of 4 almost two full days to cut the thatch apart. It was
the biggest thatch roof ever built in the village. A magnificent building.

We salvaged dozens of poles, but they will not be of much good to us. There
is no way we can build with thatch for at least two years. The cahoon trees
are pretty much okay, but they lost all their leaves. So we have no choice
but to re-build with "zinc", galvanized roofing that the Mennonites roll out
in Spanish Lookout.
Which means we have to buy sawn rafters, ceiling joists and perlins. And
the building will need gutters. Add to this the fact that the Malaysians
have stopped logging in the Columbia Forest Reserve (Yay!) and Young's mill
got blown apart in the storm and that every one else needs wood right now.

I know everybody would like to save the thatch roof on the school/dorm
building, but there is just no way. We will build with thatch again, but it
will be small sleeping palapas rather than the big dorm rooms. This gives
us an opportunity to upgrade those rooms for the more upscale travelers. We
really can rebuild so those rooms are bug-proof, something we never could do
with the thatch. But they will be hot.

One of my goals was to get a tarp on the flooring that remained in order to
save it until we could rebuild. We tacked up the few remaining wall panels
of the original building into a center line so the temporary roof would shed
water. We got this done on the second day under the treat of rain. The
rains never came but the winds quickly began to tear up the tarp. So the
third day we tightened it up and without a major storm, it should serve well
for a few weeks.

Another goal was to get our insurance coverage. We had both major buildings
insured, not for much, only $7500 each, but what was expected to be our
minimal cost to rebuild. Since we are so remote, Roe and Sons told us we
had to document our own damages and get contractor estimates. Mark found
some good pictures of the buildings before the storm. I took four rolls of
film of the damage. In my short time I was able to find two contractors to
estimate the building and traveled to Belize City to make the claim. I have
now heard from the insurance company. They claim our buildings are under
insured and only want to give us a fraction of their value. More on this
later.

So now we face the decision of where to get the wood. And this involves the
potential of getting one of these newfangled portable sawmills to the farm
and how long this will take. Should we cut our good logs up into timber or
are we better off selling this as veneer wood and buying pine? And it also
brings up the issues with JM who
is moving in this same direction. We can talk about this at the meeting.
We have huge logs down all over the place. Many of these are mahogany and
cedar, but also Laurel and other less desirable species that would do well
for our construction needs. There is a huge amount of wood available with
the right equipment and labor.

It took a crew of 6 of us three full days to clear the trail back to Spice
Hill. At least 500 major trees and limbs were across the trail in that ¾
mile walk. The old cacao was in surprisingly good shape. We always had
problems with way too much shade causing fungus problems in these trees.
Now we have the opposite problem, no shade at all. The hurricane acted like
a weed whip. It seemed to cut off everything, even three-foot diameter
stumps, about 10 feet from the ground. Shrubs lower than that are intact.
We stuck a lot of Madre de Cacao limbs into the ground to give the cacao
some quick shade. Christopher Nesbitt of the Toledo Cacao Cooperative
thought this was important.

The coffee did not do as well; the smaller plants had trouble getting up
over the huge amount of slash that fell on them. So we put a lot of
priority into saving these young groves. And Mark's young white cacao
trees got special attention. I hired the guys to continue the entire week
under Eladio's and Marino's direction. Dolis was great, he worked really
hard with us as well as helped Justina organize the crew's food.

On my third morning there, Dolis said to me that he wanted to work a little
closer to the house, that Justina was sick and he wanted to be near in case
she needed him. I questioned whether Justina needed a doctor. No, he
answered, the midwife was there already. "Midwife? She is going to have a
baby?" Oh yes, said Dolis, like it was no big thing. I did not even
realize she was pregnant. He worked in the bush all morning like it was no
big deal. At lunch he went up to check on his new child, a yet-to-be-named
boy, then spent the afternoon back in the bush. Still, I saw Dolis being a
great dad on many occasions during my visit.
On the last day we beat a path up to the hilltop. It was more for
celebration and taking in the view than any specific task. I had taken a
360 degree panorama shot up there in the spring and I thought the comparison
to what it looks like now would be great. Our hilltop is about 300 feet
higher than most of the farm and offers a view to the ocean (15 miles) and
almost to Honduras, Pine Ridge and Guatemala. What surprised me is you
could see the hurricane path. To the northwest there was a distinct line
where the hurricane had hit. Also to the southeast, though this was not as
clear. Iris was only about 30 miles wide. Where it hit was brown, beyond
that was still bright green. We were slammed right in the middle of it.

My team of workers did great, but we really just scratched the surface.
There is a huge amount of clean-up work and planting needed if we are going
to restore the farm to anything near its former productivity. I estimate
that one-third of our plantings are gone and that we will lose another third
if we don't quickly clean the branches off them and free them from new
competition. We have to go over the place tree by tree deciding which to
keep and which to sacrifice. We have a huge building project as well. The
nursery that we have used to supply our own needs as well as tree to our
neighbors now becomes especially relevant. We need to get thousands of
trees started. Our
crew really wants to keep working. I hope we can find the money to afford
them.

As for the villagers, they are still in shock. One thing is unanimous,
everyone hears how much relief help the government is getting, yet not one
bit of it, other than some tarps and occasional food, has reached the
village. Everyone is convinced that the politicians have put it in their
pockets. They need all sorts of things. If you asked them they would say
food, children's clothing and household goods like sheets and towels. We
can discuss how to best help them during our meeting.

Getting home was even easier than getting in. Christopher came by in his
dory on his way
to work and took me and my now very light baggage down the river. He then
drove me to the PG
airport. I was the only passenger in the Maya Island plane. It was quite
an eye-opener to see the hurricane damage from the air. I did have to take
a taxi into Belize City to file the insurance claim. But I returned to the
airport to find I had been upgraded two first class seats again. The only
trouble
is that Continental now flies back to Houston too late to make eastern
connections.
So I made the best of my night in Houston by renting a car and visiting a
friend.

I thank BARC for partially supporting the costs of this trip (I paid my own
plane fare and some other expenses.) I hope you can join us Tuesday
evening at 6:00 to continue our planning effort.

Don E
__________________________________________________

Tax Deductable contributions can be sent to the Tropical Conservation
Foundation.
c/o Box 18, Guysville, OH 45735

More information on the hemp fiasco can be found at www.votehemp.org

I will be happy to answer any questions anyone on this list might have.

Don E Wirtshafter
don@hempery.com

 

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From snkm at btl.net Thu Nov 15 20:47:16 2001
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:46 2004
Subject: GAS-L: BECHTEL COMMENTS ON SYNTHETIC FUELS
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20011115194312.009f1bb0@wgs1.btl.net>

>Tom,
>
>I think this was an old wood fired plant which was unused and unwanted by
the
>owner who donated the facility for the tax deduction just before the power
>crisis hit California. From what I know of the sister to this plant it was
>in good condition but had problems with biomass supply. It should not cost
>$.045 to operate and buy fuel. I suspect that the university cost
accounting
>includes a few non-related costs in this figure. Plus, selling to the grid
>in California is weak marketing since retail customers are plentiful with
>$.10 the competing rate.
>
>We are recommending to a client of ours that they buy the sister plant and
we
>expect them to do very well with it.
>
>Cornelius A. Van Milligen
>Kentucky Enrichment Inc.
>

Dear Cornelius;

A big difference exits between using waste biomass and paid for biomass. In
order for any biomass power plant to survive buying its biomass -- it needs
22% percent or over all efficiencies.

Many -- if not all -- waste fueled biomass plants shave capital costs by
going for lower efficiencies -- as their fuel is free -- or even they are
paid (as tipping fees) to use it!

But if you have to buy your biomass -- at say even $15.00 US per ton -- 30%
humidity -- you need high plant efficiencies to come ahead.

As example --

The abandoned Libertad Sugar Factory here in Belize has to functional
bagasse burning boilers of a total of 150,000 pound of steam per hour at
350 PSI steam.

It also has to other furnaces that can be brought on line with a simple
reconditioning.

Simple?? Yes -- old style fire tube boilers. Replace refractory -- replace
fire tubes.

These furnaces can burn short logs to 6 ft lengths --

Burning Bagasse -- they averaged about 3.5% over all efficiencies. If you
had to buy wood for these to make electrical power -- you would go broke fast!

However -- I had specific quotes done from a leading geothermal plant maker
-- and 350 PSI steam would result in an over all plant conversion
efficiency of 23%.

The way you do this is by simply bolting the pipes from boiler to
geothermal plant inlet. And the return back to the feed water side.

The capital costs are more than reasonable -- no need for new boilers or
furnaces -- just the geothermal turbine unit.

No system as of yet invented by man -- including gasifiers -- can compete
with this. I am sure I have mentioned this to you -- and others on this
list -- many times.

But I believe it simply goes in one ear and out the other.

Ergo -- my feelings that 3rd world has to ignore all suggestions from
industrialized nations -- who appear to be simply hustling for a profit by
conning the normally technically ignorant 3rd world governments.

The above plan of action can be implemented in 3 months or less. The
geothermal units are hermetically sealed -- as your household refrigerator
compressor is -- and this company has numerous examples of such running 35
years without any maintenance.

All tropical 3rd world countries know the sugar industry and know how to
maintain -- yearly -- those old fire tube boiler that are part of the
industry.

But instead of having to retube each year when burning bagasse -- they will
only have to retube every 5 to 10 years when burning "whole" wood.

Bechtel et al needs to talk to people like me -- the local "engineers" --
rather than you guys who keep dreaming in color!!

And I believe that was the message Bechtel was putting out.

If you want to do things in 3rd world -- talk to the 3rd world engineers --
do not waste your time -- and eventually lose all your cash -- with modern
industrialized nation's engineers that are clueless.

As in -- automatic feeding of these furnaces over men feeding them manually!!

You got to be kidding guys -- this is 3rd world -- everyone needs to make a
living.

You have a big pressure gauge in from of the furnace fire box doors and you
tell the men to feed wood and keep that gauge at 340 to 360 PSI!!

We are quite confident in manual laborer's intelligence here -- not like
where you guys are coming from -- where laborers have been watching TV
since birth and have not got a clue. Here -- men -- real men -- are smarter
than computers -- and can be relied on.

There -- lesson number one from a 3rd world engineer -- that was trained in
your world!!

Cornelius -- you are something else!! You do everything possible not to
listen to my advice so that you can "wheel-and-deal" and then you think you
are really going to get "rich" conning 3rd world market.

Your not the solution -- your part of the problem!

What over all efficiencies of that "free" power plant??

If you knew basic math -- you would find out that "free" at 5% pays is a
real loser compared with paid for biomasses at 22% over all efficiencies --
and keeps "paying" for 35 years -- minimum -- after!! (A "Clue" -- you get
better than four times the power from the same amount of fuel -- to sell.
Your free plant has 10 megawatts for grid -- the paid for plant -- burning
the same biomass amounts -- has 48 Megawatts for sale. Or -- a plant less
than for times the size (great reduction in capital start up costs) puts
out the same power as your "free' plant burning less than 1.4 of the biomass!

Do not feel bad -- I have this same conflict with Gene Hill and Skip -- and
they at least have realized their true niches -- that is sell their systems
where there is wastes for free -- or tipping fees included.

Ignore us on hands engineers in 3rd world -- do not go crying when you have
lost your shirt!

That is what Bechtel is pointing out -- understand?

You guys in modern world -- believe me -- you are so out of touch with the
reality of engineering in 3rd world you simply stand no chance at all of
ever "successfully" penetrating this market place.

There -- that is the last I have to say on this subject -- the "H" with the
lot of you!!

>It should not cost
>$.045 to operate and buy fuel.

when you mentioned this in passing to me a while back -- off list -- the
first question I asked back was what is your plant efficiency!!

You immediately dropped out of communication -- and never did I receive and
answer.

Where I come from -- this is how "con-artists operate. Well, as a hard
headed engineer, Cornelius, I certainly have your "measure" now!!

I also thought it strange that you could not make the connection regarding
my suggestions regarding the coal fired plant up your way.

Do not play with technology if you have no understanding of it -- you will
get burned -- and burned big time.

One cent per kwh is equal to $10 per hour for a megawatt.

24 hours per day = $240 per day -- for each megawatt produced 24 hours.

345 days per year -- rest for plant refurbishing (can be more on line time)
is:

$82,800 per year.

If you are feeding 10 megs into the grid continuously:

$828,000 per year.

That old Kentuck coal fired plant may be only getting 35% or less
efficiencies.

Married it to a geothermal -- and expect over all efficiencies to reach 40%
or 45% or even 50%.

But say 40% -- and thus a 7% increase in power output.

Now -- don not believe you mentioned what that power plant in question is
producing? But say a modest 50 megs.

7% of fifty megs is an extra 3.5 megs.

All you have to work out is if you can "see" one cent per kwh "profit" from
that for the next 10 years.

That would be: $82,800 times 3.5 = $ 289,800 per cent profit!

Believe the price for that power -- to sell to the grid -- is 2 cents per
kwh -- or was it 2.5??

Say 2 cents. One cent for you -- one cent to pay for the "conversion"

The conversion costs:

Roughly -- $1000 per megawatt capacity for the geothermal unit.

Figure another $300 per megawatt for retrofitting existing power plant to
mate geothermal to it.

So -- 3.5 megawatts for $1,300,000 per megawatt for 30 years or more
(hermetically sealed unit -- remember) =

3.5 * 1.3 = $4.55 million.

Now -- you need one extra "operator" (not really required -- the addition
is basically service free -- but stating the worse case)

And you have $289,000 per year to pay that worker and pay your loan -- and
you have another $289,000 per year to put in you pocket -- or give 70% plus
of taxes to Uncle Sam.

But -- you missed it all --

You can't play this "game" without an engineer on staff -- you simply end
up going broke real fast.

That is what Bechtel comments on.

Keep trying to wheel and deal -- figuring out how to make that fast buck as
a middle man -- but not in power plants -- please!

you simply have not a hope in "H' of making it in 3rd world if you miss
deals as the above right in tyour own back yard -- due to lack of "clear"
technical understanding.

Peter

>-
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From CAVM at aol.com Thu Nov 15 21:11:50 2001
From: CAVM at aol.com (CAVM@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:46 2004
Subject: GAS-L: BECHTEL COMMENTS ON SYNTHETIC FUELS
Message-ID: <16f.40113ac.2925cfda@aol.com>

In a message dated 11/15/2001 7:51:15 PM Central Standard Time, snkm@btl.net
writes:

<< A big difference exits between using waste biomass and paid for biomass. In
order for any biomass power plant to survive buying its biomass -- it needs
22% percent or over all efficiencies.
>>

Peter, stay calm. I had a client who asked me about used biomass fueled
plants and I suggested the sister to the one the university uses. I didn't
make a dime on that suggestion. It is an old plant but the air quality
permit is current and the cost of the unit is reasonable.

I am sure you know a lot more about engineering than I do since I am an
accountant. We engage outside engineers for the benefit of our clients.
They operate as independent consultants and are not responsible to us, the
act for the client. I don't claim to be knowledgeable in energy issues.
That is why I ask questions of folks like you. Asking is learning, not
asking is ignorance.

Respectfully,

Cornelius A. Van Milligen

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From CAVM at aol.com Thu Nov 15 21:32:54 2001
From: CAVM at aol.com (CAVM@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:46 2004
Subject: GAS-L: BECHTEL COMMENTS ON SYNTHETIC FUELS
Message-ID: <109.8b016b9.2925d4c0@aol.com>

In a message dated 11/15/2001 7:51:15 PM Central Standard Time, snkm@btl.net
writes:

<< >It should not cost
>$.045 to operate and buy fuel.

>when you mentioned this in passing to me a while back -- off list -- the
>first question I asked back was what is your plant efficiency!!

>You immediately dropped out of communication -- and never did I receive and
>answer. >>

Pete, I don't recall your having asked this question. In any case, I don't
recall the efficiency of this plant. I am 2000 miles from my office and did
not bring that file with me.

>>Where I come from -- this is how "con-artists operate. Well, as a hard
>headed engineer, Cornelius, I certainly have your "measure" now!!>>

I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you were sampling
your private stock of home brew when you made this remark. If you were
joking I would appreciate your apology.

Cornelius A. Van Milligen

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From todotoo at yahoo.com Fri Nov 16 10:26:50 2001
From: todotoo at yahoo.com (John Weber)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:46 2004
Subject: GAS-L: gasifier
In-Reply-To: <1005871535.14201.ezmlm@crest.org>
Message-ID: <20011116152641.86041.qmail@web11602.mail.yahoo.com>

I am a novice. I am looking for someone who sells
a working wood gasifier. My wish is to put it on
a wagon as a working example to be taken to fairs
and conferences.
My own experience with renewable energies is that
I have lived off the grid for almost thirty years
using wind and photovoltaics for electricity and
wood for cooking and heating.
This year I organized a renewable energy
conference and global warming conference for the
Sustainable Farming Association of Central
Minnesota and was part of a Renewable Energy Fair
in my local town. We are organizing an even
larger fair for next August.
If someone can direct my to a place where I can
buy a wood gasifier with a track record I would
appreciated.
John Weber
Minnesota

 

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From LINVENT at aol.com Fri Nov 16 10:46:20 2001
From: LINVENT at aol.com (LINVENT@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:46 2004
Subject: GAS-L: BECHTEL COMMENTS ON SYNTHETIC FUELS
Message-ID: <59.131698a7.29268eb6@aol.com>

Dear Peter,
I am sure that all of the engineering analysis and paper hanging will
prove that a system can work, should work, will work, or whatever. Until one
convinces the right people to put up the money for it, it will not work. That
is the hard and fast of the world. If you put as much energy into writing
letters to the check writers, our deaf ears will continue to hear but not
listen.
The real reason Bechtel has the clout it has is because it has
exceptional relations with it's financial resources and performs well and
they are willing to write checks for the projects Bechtel brings to them.
Getting financing means getting the project. As an example, when Texaco,
EPRI, DOE, SCE, SDGE all got together to build the Daggett, Ca. 1000 tpd coal
fired 144 megawatt gasification system, Bechtel wanted to engineer it and
Fluor was 1st pick, but Bechtel bought equity into the project so that it
could build it. Fluor got the rework of the plant several years later to
Bechtel's chagrin. That is how money speaks.
When $ folks hear about a technology, the first thing they want to do is
see an engineering report, the system operating somewhere etc. So, if you
were to build one of your famous plants in small scale and prove the cycle,
or retain a high end engineering co. to write a good report on it, then you
will start to be able to implement your ideas.
The hard work is getting a take or pay power contract from a utility who is
afraid to write one because they don't know where the next cheap source of
power may come from. You couldn't get a 95% efficient plant financed without
the contract for the power. Politics and economics is the issue, not science.

Sincerely,
Leland T. Taylor
President
Thermogenics Inc.
7100-2nd St. NW, Albuquerque, New Mexico 87107
phone 505-761-1454 fax 505-761-1456
Attached files are zipped and can be decompressed with <A
HREF="http://www.aladdinsys.com/expander/">www.aladdinsys.com/expander/ </A>

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From snkm at btl.net Fri Nov 16 10:55:32 2001
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:46 2004
Subject: GAS-L: BECHTEL COMMENTS ON SYNTHETIC FUELS
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20011116095117.009eab70@wgs1.btl.net>

At 09:32 PM 11/15/2001 EST, you wrote:
>In a message dated 11/15/2001 7:51:15 PM Central Standard Time, snkm@btl.net
>writes:

>>>Where I come from -- this is how "con-artists operate. Well, as a hard
>>headed engineer, Cornelius, I certainly have your "measure" now!!>>
>
>I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you were sampling
>your private stock of home brew when you made this remark. If you were
>joking I would appreciate your apology.
>
>Cornelius A. Van Milligen
>

Oops -- your right -- I owe an explanation (and apology).

First -- we have just passed through an extremely traumatic situation here
with non-engineers -- politicians -- if you will -- sticking their noses
into cogeneration of bagasse that has resulted in adopting a plan that
simply can never work. So I am touchy.

Second -- I was under the impression you were an engineer "type". As such
-- you were looking bad.

Now that I know your a accountant -- big difference.

When I operated an engineering firm in Montreal I had three accountants as
major clientele. As you are doing -- they were looking after their
customers affairs. I was often hired to review engineering projects by
these three. I also ended up doing a lot of direct contracting/contruction
for their clients.

As in a quote for a new heating system for an old 105 room apartment
building coming in at $1.5 million and my simply refurbishing the excellent
existing furnace and cast iron piping for $50,000. This entailed retubing
the boiler -- new refractory -- installing new high efficiency gas burners
(these were old coal fired boilers originally) -- verified/reparied or
replaced all the steam traps.

New air vents on all the radiators.

Etc -- etc -- for $50,000. At the 1.5 million quote they were considering
demolishing the entire building -- but could not as it was a heritage site!

The amount of "scams" going down in this manner at anyone time is
astounding. And getting the right advice is next to impossible.

As they were paying me $65 per hour for the "consulting" and report
generating -- there was no problems regarding establishing credibility.
Further -- the results -- over many years of this -- led to a very tight
relationship.

In short words Cornelius -- I was noted for my honest approach -- had no
special plans to sell -- no in house interests -- just looking for the best
bottom line. And more often than not saving my clients 90% and greater in
costs. Plus end results that worked -- and kept on working.

You -- and all others on this list -- only know me as a contributor.

Regarding the geothermal after fits -- I have contacted and discussed this
issue with major players -- am satisfied with their claims. Hard to pass
this over to people I am chatting with -- rather than "serving" in as
professional manner (or used to serve)

So I get edgy when I see automatic assumptions made -- such as the last few
postings.

If you were an engineer -- that would be called scamming.

But as you are an accountant -- it simply points out to me you need better
engineering consultants.

I retract all my statements -- and wish you the best -- in finding a proper
technical adviser.

You especially require such that can explain matters in terms that you can
easily understand -- not just issue proclamations based on take it or leave
it mentality.

This will allow you and your clients to prosper better -- believe me!

Just about any of the older engineers on this list can run over a set of
project plans and verify projections.

And also -- better -- especially in major projects -- to consult more than
one such.

There are to many "prestigious" engineering firms out there just hustling
-- as the Government of Belize will find out once it has installed the
present plan for co-generation here.

Though apparently -- that might not happen -- as the financiers do hire
consultants -- and they have to date refused to fund this project based on
inconsistencies.

But governments can simply borrow with the name of the country -- rather
than based on any feasibility studies -- placing another burden on their
people -- another failed enterprise.

But then -- the credit rating of our country has fallen some what as well.

Still -- bottom line -- we have lost a golden opportunity. As this should
have been done -- when proposed by me -- 4 years back.

You might have noticed that this is not specific only to Belize? Other
postings by other people often point out this same development problem in
situations in industrialized countries as well.

For instance -- that "free" power plant losing money.

Its like this. I'll give you a free 1966 Lincoln Continental that averages
6 miles per gallon. You drive that 20,000 miles per year. How "free" is that?

But say I put a state of the art diesel in there -- and you got 35 miles
per gallon??

That would be the same as changing the turbine on that free power plant to
a more efficient model -- a refrigerent cycle geothermal power plant.

No hard feelings Cornelius -- just massive frustration with all this
"waste" going down -- all the time!

If you can supply the specs on that free power plant -- amount steam
produced -- at what pressure/superheat -- present power output for input of
biomass fuel -- so to derive over all plant efficiencies --

I can quickly show you some interesting figures --

(Also some idea of operation and maintenance costs)

At some point we have to stop playing games and getting "real". Else we all
are going to lose it -- and maybe already have?

And finally -- for this list -- if your talking woody biomass power plants
-- the Vermont plant was doing it well with it's old combustion boiler set
up. Have to look it up -- but they were doing better than 22% over all.

Anyone know how the new fluid bed gasifier worked out??

Was it worth the cost??

Case example??

Cornelius -- it is a veritable quagmire out there.

It costs a vertiable fortune to build a steam "boiler/turbine" power that
will operate at the high pressures and temperatures required to get high
over all efficiencies using "steam" turbines. Plus expensive to operate and
maintain.

That is why Burlington Electric in Vermont took the chance with a fluid bed
gasifier -- which -- at that time -- looked like the answer to all their
problems.

I believe the solution is to stay with an old style -- economic --
extremely reliable -- fire tube boiler -- as seen on all sugar factory
operations -- and simply hook the medium pressure easily achieved by such
-- say 450 PSI saturated -- to a geothermal turbine.

The turbine is hermetically sealed and offers 30 plus years trouble free --
no maintenance -- operation.

Such a fire tube boiler as required lives for as long as you wish for
minimal "low-tech" servicing.

There are "free" such boilers laying all over the world in abandoned susgar
factories -- we have four such less than five miles from where I type!

As an engineer -- this is all clear and easy to comprehend. But engineers
are not making decisions -- politicians and "investors" are!

And we are losing it ---

Peter Singfield / Belize

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From snkm at btl.net Fri Nov 16 11:43:35 2001
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:46 2004
Subject: GAS-L: BECHTEL COMMENTS ON SYNTHETIC FUELS
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20011116103927.009f5b90@wgs1.btl.net>

 

Dear Tom T.;

I believe I just posted a message basically saying the same thing.

And remember the real bottom line ion power generation -- especially now
with a glut of cheap crude -- and from an engineering perspective --

Those big Wartsilas -- crude oil fueled diesel power plants!

If I had to honestly advise a client ---

Further -- you can always hook one of your series of gasifiers to it after
-- should the balance swing in the other direction -- ever again.

>You couldn't get a 95% efficient plant financed without
>the contract for the power. Politics and economics is the issue, not
science.

That is an especially valid statement!

Peter

At 10:45 AM 11/16/2001 EST, you wrote:
>Dear Peter,
> I am sure that all of the engineering analysis and paper hanging will
>prove that a system can work, should work, will work, or whatever. Until one
>convinces the right people to put up the money for it, it will not work.
That
>is the hard and fast of the world. If you put as much energy into writing
>letters to the check writers, our deaf ears will continue to hear but not
>listen.
> The real reason Bechtel has the clout it has is because it has
>exceptional relations with it's financial resources and performs well and
>they are willing to write checks for the projects Bechtel brings to them.
>Getting financing means getting the project. As an example, when Texaco,
>EPRI, DOE, SCE, SDGE all got together to build the Daggett, Ca. 1000 tpd
coal
>fired 144 megawatt gasification system, Bechtel wanted to engineer it and
>Fluor was 1st pick, but Bechtel bought equity into the project so that it
>could build it. Fluor got the rework of the plant several years later to
>Bechtel's chagrin. That is how money speaks.
> When $ folks hear about a technology, the first thing they want to do is
>see an engineering report, the system operating somewhere etc. So, if you
>were to build one of your famous plants in small scale and prove the cycle,
>or retain a high end engineering co. to write a good report on it, then you
>will start to be able to implement your ideas.
>The hard work is getting a take or pay power contract from a utility who is
>afraid to write one because they don't know where the next cheap source of
>power may come from. You couldn't get a 95% efficient plant financed without
>the contract for the power. Politics and economics is the issue, not
science.
>
>
>Sincerely,
>Leland T. Taylor
> President
> Thermogenics Inc.
>7100-2nd St. NW, Albuquerque, New Mexico 87107
>phone 505-761-1454 fax 505-761-1456
>Attached files are zipped and can be decompressed with <A
>HREF="http://www.aladdinsys.com/expander/">www.aladdinsys.com/expander/ </A>
>
>-
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>
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>
>

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From snkm at btl.net Fri Nov 16 14:16:18 2001
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:46 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Crying in our beers --
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20011116131201.009f7250@wgs1.btl.net>

 

Wrote this little ditty about 25 years or so back:

Titled: We Know!!

I am a mechanic of the people.
All through the day
I keep your space in place.

I keep all them little motors turning
By oiling every little bearing
To keep them suckers from burning

I do my job oh so well.
You don't even know I'm there.

But -- if I went away somewhere
Why - your space would go to hell!!

*****Peter / Belize**********

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From jerry5335 at yahoo.com Fri Nov 16 16:25:32 2001
From: jerry5335 at yahoo.com (jerry dycus)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:46 2004
Subject: GAS-L: BECHTEL COMMENTS ON SYNTHETIC FUELS
In-Reply-To: <129.791c56a.29256ad3@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20011116212522.91981.qmail@web14007.mail.yahoo.com>

Hi Leyland and All,
The university must be too lazy to find their
own customers!!!
They can/ could have made $.08/.10 kwhr if they
did. Apparently they don't teach economics there. The
extra money could be used for more research,ect.
Customers would be local cities, counties,
hospitals or other large users.
They can cut costs and increase profits by just
generating in the peak hours. Also the savings of
producing it's own electricity rather than buying it
from the power co would be a good profit too. Also
sell it to other schools/ universities.
They apparently don't do much critical thinking
there!
jerry dycus

--- LINVENT@aol.com wrote:

One specific instance which biomass has suffered
> immeasurably is the
> pricing of power.
> As an example, a major university in California
> was donated a 20 MWe
> biomass power plant, stoker-boiler-turbine. It sells
> to the grid. The
> operating cost is $.045 and are selling the power to
> the grid at $.038,
> losing money on every kilowatt sold. That is without
> debt service cost.
> Imagine the cost with debt service cost. Ouch! So,
> this is a major reason why
> biomass is not particularly exciting to project
> developers. Of course, the
> utilities are trying to recoup their losses so the
> retail costs are way up
> there.
>
>
>
>
> Sincerely,
> Leland T. Taylor
> President
> Thermogenics Inc.
> 7100-2nd St. NW, Albuquerque, New Mexico 87107
> phone 505-761-1454 fax 505-761-1456

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Find the one for you at Yahoo! Personals
http://personals.yahoo.com

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From kchishol at fox.nstn.ca Fri Nov 16 16:36:07 2001
From: kchishol at fox.nstn.ca (Kevin Chisholm)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:46 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Crying in our beers --
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20011116131201.009f7250@wgs1.btl.net>
Message-ID: <000c01c16ee6$44bc2940$5b19059a@kevin>

I very much appreciate th sentiments expressed in your poem.

Rudyard Kipling said much the same thing in his poem "Sons of Martha." See
it at http://www.mindspring.com/~blackhart/The_Sons_of_Martha.html

Kindest regards,

Kevin

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Singfield" <snkm@btl.net>
To: <gasification@crest.org>
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2001 3:12 PM
Subject: GAS-L: Crying in our beers --

>
> Wrote this little ditty about 25 years or so back:
>
> Titled: We Know!!
>
> I am a mechanic of the people.
> All through the day
> I keep your space in place.
>
> I keep all them little motors turning
> By oiling every little bearing
> To keep them suckers from burning
>
> I do my job oh so well.
> You don't even know I'm there.
>
> But -- if I went away somewhere
> Why - your space would go to hell!!
>
>
> *****Peter / Belize**********
>
> -
> Gasification List Archives:
> http://www.crest.org/discussion/gasification/current/
>
> Gasification List Moderator:
> Tom Reed, Biomass Energy Foundation, Reedtb2@cs.com
> www.webpan.com/BEF
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>
>
>
>

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From LINVENT at aol.com Fri Nov 16 16:47:33 2001
From: LINVENT at aol.com (LINVENT@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:46 2004
Subject: GAS-L: BECHTEL COMMENTS ON SYNTHETIC FUELS
Message-ID: <14a.41cc2e7.2926e33e@aol.com>

Dear Jerry,
I cannot second guess the reason the power plant does not have better
income. It would appear just using it at the school would raise the revenues
substantially. I have a feeling it was donated along with the contract to the
school and it suffers accordingly.

Sincerely,
Leland T. Taylor
President
Thermogenics Inc.
7100-2nd St. NW, Albuquerque, New Mexico 87107
phone 505-761-1454 fax 505-761-1456
Attached files are zipped and can be decompressed with <A
HREF="http://www.aladdinsys.com/expander/">www.aladdinsys.com/expander/ </A>

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From LINVENT at aol.com Fri Nov 16 17:30:16 2001
From: LINVENT at aol.com (LINVENT@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:46 2004
Subject: GAS-L: BECHTEL COMMENTS ON SYNTHETIC FUELS
Message-ID: <15a.414ec6b.2926ed47@aol.com>

Dear Jerry and others,
The California state legislature forbad the off-grid sale of power from
existing power plants to retail users. The reason for this was to replace the
billions of dollars lost by the power companies through the socialization of
the power grid in California. The School is not stupid, just got legislated
that way. Who says the US has a free economy?

Sincerely,
Leland T. Taylor
President
Thermogenics Inc.
7100-2nd St. NW, Albuquerque, New Mexico 87107
phone 505-761-1454 fax 505-761-1456
Attached files are zipped and can be decompressed with <A
HREF="http://www.aladdinsys.com/expander/">www.aladdinsys.com/expander/ </A>

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From snkm at btl.net Fri Nov 16 18:11:56 2001
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:46 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Wood fired power plants math
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20011116170354.00a06dd0@wgs1.btl.net>

 

Dear Jerry and all other listers!

Let's put on the engineering cap!

We still do not know what efficiencies -- and that makes all the difference
when "BUYING" biomass as fuel.

I searched my archives and dug this up -- call this a blast from the past!
(appended in entirety)

"Hi Peter, the efficiency of the Mcneil Station is 25% on a HHV basis. Steam
conditions are 1275 psi, 950 F. Boiler efficiency is 70% with wood at 50%
content. Wood moisture has veried from 39% to 50%, and averaged about 45%."

Quite "enlightening". From those figures we can derive everything! Anyone
want to try??

"Wood moisture has veried from 39% to 50%, and averaged about 45%."

Question listers -- does that mean 55% wood and 45% water??

If so -- and quick and dirty --

8200 btu/lb * 55% = 4510 btu/lb "net" energy.

25% over all efficiencies -- so

4510 * .25 = 1127.5 btu as power out.

One ton -- 2000 lbs = 2000 * 1127.5 = 2,255,000

2,225,000/3414.4 = 660 kwh of "product" per ton of "green" wood.

So -- at 25% over all plant efficiency -- paying say $25 per ton of green
wood fuel:

Cost of fuel per kwh =

25.00 / 660 = 3.7 cents US per kwh!!

Or -- also from my archives:

How much fuel does the McNeil Station use?

The amount of wood used depends on the operating conditions of the plant.
To run McNeil at full load, approximately 76 tons of wholetree chips are
consumed per hour. That amounts to about 30 cords per hour (there are about
2.5 tons of chips per cord of green wood). When the plant is operating at
full load on gas, it uses 550,000 cubic feet of gas per hour.

How much electricity is produced?

At full load, the plant can generate 50 megawatts (MW) of electricity. This
is enough power to run 500,000 100-watt light bulbs or nearly enough
electricity for Burlington-Vermont's largest city. By comparison, the
McNeil Station is only one-tenth the size of the Vermont Yankee Nuclear
Power Station which generates 528 megawatts.

******************

76 tons per hour = 50 megawatts.

So -- 76 * $25 = $1900

$1900/50,000 = 3.8 cents per kwh fuel costs at $25 ton delivered.

Hey guys -- my quick estimates are right in there!

A normal biomass waste fired power plant gets between 3 to 10% over all
efficiencies. 5% is a very realistic number --

At 5% over all plant efficiency -- and paying $25 US per ton (delivered to
plant!!) for biomass -- would mean a fuel cost of:

18.9 cents US per kwh!!

Ergo Cornelius -- the most important question is -- plant over all
efficiencies.

Surely -- as an accountant -- you can see this??

But just what kind of power plant is that California dealy?? It could be an
efficient fluid bed design as the one I referred John Irving to and he
mentions visiting in Finland (Home of Arnt!) (see appended)

Let's see what my archives have to say about that --

FOSTER WHEELER IS AWARDED $17 MILLION CONTRACT
TO SUPPLY SWEDISH DISTRICT HEATING/POWER PLANT

CLINTON, N.J., July 13, 1998--Foster Wheeler Corporation announced that
Sweden's Sala-Heby Energi AB has awarded a turnkey contract of
approximately $17 million to Foster Wheeler Energia Oy for a power plant to
supply district heating and electricity for the towns of Sala and Heby,
located about 75 miles northwest of Stockholm.

Based in Finland, Foster Wheeler Energia Oy is an operating company of
United States-headquartered Foster Wheeler Energy International, Inc.

Scope of project for Foster Wheeler includes the entire power plant:
design, engineering, project management, bubbling fluidized-bed (BFB)
boiler, turbine, generator, civil works, automation, electrification and
other equipment.

The biofueled (wood chips) BFB boiler, the thirteenth delivered to projects
in Sweden by Foster Wheeler Energia Oy in recent years, will generate 9.5
MW of electricity to Sala-Heby's electrical network and 20 MW of district
heat to the city of Sala.

Work on the project, which highlights Foster Wheeler Energia Oy's position
as a major supplier of turnkey power plants in Scandinavia, is starting
immediately and the plant is scheduled to be completed in April of 2000.

Foster Wheeler Energy International, Inc. designs and fabricates
steam-generating equipment for electric utilities, industrial users and
public authorities globally. The company is one of the world's leading
suppliers of fluidized-bed boilers.

Foster Wheeler Corporation is a global company offering a broad range of
design, engineering, construction, manufacturing, project development and
management, research, plant operations and environmental services. The
Corporation's headquarters are at Clinton, N.J.

***********************

Ok -- we have this "meat" to work with:

"will generate 9.5 MW of electricity to Sala-Heby's electrical network and
20 MW of district heat"

In another paper -- they claim 89% gasifier efficiency. That means a flue
loss of 11%.

so worse case guesstimate --

Total energy out is:

9.5 + 20 = 29.5

9.5/29.5 = 32% cycle efficiencies!

Knock off 11% leaves: 28.5% over all plant efficiency!!

Now -- if that is what California is giving away -- jump on it!!

Now -- the above system -- for 9.5 MWe was quoted at $1100 per kwh capital
costs to John Irving in summer 1999.

At 28.5% efficiencies -- green wood at $25 per ton delivered would mean a
fuel cost of:

4510 * .285 = 1285 btu as power out.

One ton -- 2000 lbs = 2000 * 1285 = 2,570,000

2,570,000/3414.4 = 752.7 kwh of "product" per ton of "green" wood.

So -- at 25% over all plant efficiency -- paying say $25 per ton of green
wood fuel:

Cost of fuel per kwh =

25.00 / 752.7 = 3.3 cents US per kwh!!

***************************

And -- let me leave the list with this --

Know anyone that would be happy delivering hard wood chips (as the Mcneil
Station in Vermont's requires or this FW gasifier) for just $25.00 US per
ton!!

Bottom line folks -- bottom line!!!

We would be so happy to get a price such as this for our fallen wood down
South here in Belize -- even if we had to chip it!!

But folks would go bankrupt at that price in the USA.

(Shades of BECHTEL and technology transferring to 3rd world business -- but
also shade of Tom T. -- and politics -- especially in 3rd world -- offers
no contracts!)

Now -- anyone finding mistakes in all the above figuring -- please correct
me!!

Belize buys 20 megawatts continuously from Mexico for an average price
ranging from 7 to 9 cents US per kwh!!

Yet the power company that controls the grid here in Belize -- Fortis
(Canada) Corporation refuses to buy from any local supplier!!

Now -- that is the kind of "politics" that is eating away at world economy --

Fortis prides itself on being a smart engineering company -- they are in
Kevin's back yard so to speak -- and they are asses!!

If we were paying our people here to bring wood to make power we would be
solving an enormous developing foreign exchange problem! If we could sell
for 7 cents US -- bottom Mexican import price -- we could do this easy!!

It is never about what is best for all concerned -- it is about "control"
-- and "greed".

But Fortis is going to "Greed" itself to bankruptcy -- as where does it
think it is going to find all that foreign exchange to pay Mexico for that
20 megawatts!!

Maybe this self professed smart Engineering firm needs to get together with
an accountant like Cornelius??

If we can't stand together -- we will fall -- and brother -- falling we are!

Peter in Belize

****************read below**********

Return-Path: <JIRVING104@aol.com>
From: JIRVING104@aol.com
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 10:56:54 EST
Subject: Re: Vermont Gasification Project
To: snkm@btl.net

Hi Peter, the efficiency of the Mcneil Station is 25% on a HHV basis. Steam
conditions are 1275 psi, 950 F. Boiler efficiency is 70% with wood at 50%
content. Wood moisture has veried from 39% to 50%, and averaged about 45%.
Thanks for the tips on Foster Wheeler. I visited a FW plant last year in
Finland which was a 10mwe district heating with a bubbling bed boiler that
was built for 1100$US/kwe. John

***********************

At 01:25 PM 11/16/2001 -0800, you wrote:
> Hi Leyland and All,
> The university must be too lazy to find their
>own customers!!!
> They can/ could have made $.08/.10 kwhr if they
>did. Apparently they don't teach economics there. The
>extra money could be used for more research,ect.
> Customers would be local cities, counties,
>hospitals or other large users.
> They can cut costs and increase profits by just
>generating in the peak hours. Also the savings of
>producing it's own electricity rather than buying it
>from the power co would be a good profit too. Also
>sell it to other schools/ universities.
> They apparently don't do much critical thinking
>there!
> jerry dycus
>
>--- LINVENT@aol.com wrote:
>
> One specific instance which biomass has suffered
>> immeasurably is the
>> pricing of power.
>> As an example, a major university in California
>> was donated a 20 MWe
>> biomass power plant, stoker-boiler-turbine. It sells
>> to the grid. The
>> operating cost is $.045 and are selling the power to
>> the grid at $.038,
>> losing money on every kilowatt sold. That is without
>> debt service cost.
>> Imagine the cost with debt service cost. Ouch! So,
>> this is a major reason why
>> biomass is not particularly exciting to project
>> developers. Of course, the
>> utilities are trying to recoup their losses so the
>> retail costs are way up
>> there.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Sincerely,
>> Leland T. Taylor
>> President
>> Thermogenics Inc.
>> 7100-2nd St. NW, Albuquerque, New Mexico 87107
>> phone 505-761-1454 fax 505-761-1456
>
>
>__________________________________________________
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>Find the one for you at Yahoo! Personals
>http://personals.yahoo.com
>
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>
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From snkm at btl.net Fri Nov 16 18:32:41 2001
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:46 2004
Subject: GAS-L: BECHTEL COMMENTS ON SYNTHETIC FUELS
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20011116171618.00a085b0@wgs1.btl.net>

 

Dear Tom T. and others;

That is exactly what they did here in Belize as well!!

There is no free economy anywhere anymore!! Just a mass media induced
illusion to the "mobs" that such exists.

And this is simply killing all innovation! In my opinion -- dooming the
entire human race.

Peter

At 05:29 PM 11/16/2001 EST, you wrote:
>Dear Jerry and others,
> The California state legislature forbad the off-grid sale of power from
>existing power plants to retail users. The reason for this was to replace
the
>billions of dollars lost by the power companies through the socialization of
>the power grid in California. The School is not stupid, just got legislated
>that way. Who says the US has a free economy?
>
>Sincerely,
>Leland T. Taylor
> President
> Thermogenics Inc.
>7100-2nd St. NW, Albuquerque, New Mexico 87107
>phone 505-761-1454 fax 505-761-1456
>Attached files are zipped and can be decompressed with <A
>HREF="http://www.aladdinsys.com/expander/">www.aladdinsys.com/expander/ </A>
>
>-
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>
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From arcate at msn.com Fri Nov 16 18:53:16 2001
From: arcate at msn.com (Jim Arcate)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:46 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Gasification for small engine gen sets
Message-ID: <014a01c16ef9$eab929c0$0fa3c043@arcate>

Hello Gasification:

Are there "commercial packages" available that include wood gasification
with IC engine generator sets in the 30 to 50 kW range ? Please tell me
about them. Thank you.

Jim Arcate
Transnational Technology LLC

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From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Fri Nov 16 21:11:38 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:46 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Gasification for small engine gen sets
In-Reply-To: <014a01c16ef9$eab929c0$0fa3c043@arcate>
Message-ID: <3BF5C736.953C571E@cybershamanix.com>

I've got a better question. What would you consider a reasonable
price for such a unit? I've been seriously thinking of beginning production
of such a unit, or more likely a 20KW unit, which, I would think, would
find a better market niche.

Jim Arcate wrote:

> Hello Gasification:
>
> Are there "commercial packages" available that include wood gasification
> with IC engine generator sets in the 30 to 50 kW range ? Please tell me
> about them. Thank you.
>

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

 

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From ken at basterfield.com Sat Nov 17 04:19:21 2001
From: ken at basterfield.com (Ken Basterfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:46 2004
Subject: GAS-L: gasifier
In-Reply-To: <20011116152641.86041.qmail@web11602.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <006f01c16f44$94207960$fa1e78d5@ken>

I would also be interested in specific technical details for equipment and
operating procedures for small producer gas plant. Please help
Ken
----- Original Message -----
From: John Weber <todotoo@yahoo.com>
To: <gasification@crest.org>
Sent: 16 November 2001 15:26
Subject: GAS-L: gasifier

> I am a novice. I am looking for someone who sells
> a working wood gasifier. My wish is to put it on
> a wagon as a working example to be taken to fairs
> and conferences.
> My own experience with renewable energies is that
> I have lived off the grid for almost thirty years
> using wind and photovoltaics for electricity and
> wood for cooking and heating.
> This year I organized a renewable energy
> conference and global warming conference for the
> Sustainable Farming Association of Central
> Minnesota and was part of a Renewable Energy Fair
> in my local town. We are organizing an even
> larger fair for next August.
> If someone can direct my to a place where I can
> buy a wood gasifier with a track record I would
> appreciated.
> John Weber
> Minnesota
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Find the one for you at Yahoo! Personals
> http://personals.yahoo.com
>
> -
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>
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>
>

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From snkm at btl.net Sat Nov 17 08:41:29 2001
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:46 2004
Subject: GAS-L: gasifier
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20011117072832.009f42c0@wgs1.btl.net>

At 08:48 AM 11/17/2001 -0000, you wrote:
>I would also be interested in specific technical details for equipment and
>operating procedures for small producer gas plant. Please help
>Ken

Dear Ken;

Start here --

http://aew.aewgasifiers.com/

and here:

www.ankurscientific.com

These are just two makers in India. They produce gasifiers in the range
your interested in. Prices hard to beat -- even if you make your own.

Peter / Belize

 

>----- Original Message -----
>From: John Weber <todotoo@yahoo.com>
>To: <gasification@crest.org>
>Sent: 16 November 2001 15:26
>Subject: GAS-L: gasifier
>
>
>> I am a novice. I am looking for someone who sells
>> a working wood gasifier. My wish is to put it on
>> a wagon as a working example to be taken to fairs
>> and conferences.
>> My own experience with renewable energies is that
>> I have lived off the grid for almost thirty years
>> using wind and photovoltaics for electricity and
>> wood for cooking and heating.
>> This year I organized a renewable energy
>> conference and global warming conference for the
>> Sustainable Farming Association of Central
>> Minnesota and was part of a Renewable Energy Fair
>> in my local town. We are organizing an even
>> larger fair for next August.
>> If someone can direct my to a place where I can
>> buy a wood gasifier with a track record I would
>> appreciated.
>> John Weber
>> Minnesota
>>
>>
>>
>> __________________________________________________
>> Do You Yahoo!?
>> Find the one for you at Yahoo! Personals
>> http://personals.yahoo.com
>>
>> -
>> Gasification List Archives:
>> http://www.crest.org/discussion/gasification/current/
>>
>> Gasification List Moderator:
>> Tom Reed, Biomass Energy Foundation, Reedtb2@cs.com
>> www.webpan.com/BEF
>> List-Post: <mailto:gasification@crest.org>
>> List-Help: <mailto:gasification-help@crest.org>
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>>
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>> -
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>> http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
>>
>>
>
>
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>
>

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From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Sat Nov 17 10:01:56 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:46 2004
Subject: GAS-L: gasifier
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20011117072832.009f42c0@wgs1.btl.net>
Message-ID: <3BF67BB4.5EEF68B1@cybershamanix.com>

That first link for AEW doesn't work, it should be:

http://aewgasifiers.netfirms.com/

Peter Singfield wrote:

> At 08:48 AM 11/17/2001 -0000, you wrote:
> >I would also be interested in specific technical details for equipment and
> >operating procedures for small producer gas plant. Please help
> >Ken
>
> Dear Ken;
>
> Start here --
>
> http://aew.aewgasifiers.com/
>
> and here:
>
> www.ankurscientific.com
>
> These are just two makers in India. They produce gasifiers in the range
> your interested in. Prices hard to beat -- even if you make your own.

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

 

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From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Sat Nov 17 10:25:32 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:47 2004
Subject: GAS-L: gasifier
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20011117072832.009f42c0@wgs1.btl.net>
Message-ID: <3BF68147.A135DF6@cybershamanix.com>

> These are just two makers in India. They produce gasifiers in the
range
> your interested in. Prices hard to beat -- even if you make your own.

AEW is getting almost $42K for a 20KW gasgen unit. That's cheap?
Hmmm.

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

 

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From snkm at btl.net Sat Nov 17 10:53:12 2001
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:47 2004
Subject: GAS-L: gasifier
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20011117094740.008f42e0@wgs1.btl.net>

At 09:24 AM 11/17/2001 -0600, you wrote:
>> These are just two makers in India. They produce gasifiers in the
>range
>> your interested in. Prices hard to beat -- even if you make your own.
>
> AEW is getting almost $42K for a 20KW gasgen unit. That's cheap?
>Hmmm.
>
>--
>Harmon Seaver
>CyberShamanix
>http://www.cybershamanix.com

Harmon;

Here is a price quote list I got from them 16 months ago. (See below)

Using this example:

8. GE-350 Electrical 20 KW 2,00,000

200,000 / 42 = $4761 for a 20 kwh unit.

And yes -- that is more than cheap!!

The 100 kw:

800,000/42 = $19,047 US

Peter / Belize

******************appended***********

( Rs.42 = 1 US $)
--------------------------------------------------------------
1. GE-600 H Electrical 100 KW 8,00,000

2. GE-750 H Electrical 250 KW 16,00,000

3. GE-1000 H Electrical 500 KW 25,00,000

4. GT-650 H Thermal 2,50,000KC/H 4,50,000


5. GT-750 H Thermal 6,25,000 10,00,000


6. GT-1000 H Thermal 12,50,000 18,00,000


7. GE-100 Electrical 5 KW 1,00,000

8. GE-350 Electrical 20 KW 2,00,000

9. GE-600 Electrical 100 KW 8,00,000

10. GE-750 Electrical 250 KW 16,00,000

11. GT-400 Thermal 50,000 2,00,000


12. GT-600 Thermal 2,50,000 4,50,000

13. GT-750 Thermal 6,25,000 10,00,000

14. GE-100-MP Electrical 10 HP 3,00,000
(Special)

15. GM-55 Pumping 5 HP 50,000

16. GM-100 Pumping 10 HP 70,000

17. GT-400-INC Incinerator 50,000 K.cal/Hr 3,00,000
& 50 Kg/Batch
18. BC-350 Wood Chip Cutter 50-100 Kg/Hr 50,000

 

 

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From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Sat Nov 17 11:09:54 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:47 2004
Subject: GAS-L: gasifier
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20011117094740.008f42e0@wgs1.btl.net>
Message-ID: <3BF68BA4.74046808@cybershamanix.com>

The website says 2,000,000 rupees which converts on the currency
converter I just used on the web (http://www.xe.com) to $41,710.11 USD.
Where are you getting the 200,000 rupee price?

Peter Singfield wrote:

> At 09:24 AM 11/17/2001 -0600, you wrote:
> >> These are just two makers in India. They produce gasifiers in the
> >range
> >> your interested in. Prices hard to beat -- even if you make your own.
> >
> > AEW is getting almost $42K for a 20KW gasgen unit. That's cheap?
> >Hmmm.
> >
> >--
> >Harmon Seaver
> >CyberShamanix
> >http://www.cybershamanix.com
>
> Harmon;
>
> Here is a price quote list I got from them 16 months ago. (See below)
>
> Using this example:
>
> 8. GE-350 Electrical 20 KW 2,00,000
>
> 200,000 / 42 = $4761 for a 20 kwh unit.
>
> And yes -- that is more than cheap!!
>
> The 100 kw:
>
> 800,000/42 = $19,047 US
>
> Peter / Belize
>
> ******************appended***********
>
> ( Rs.42 = 1 US $)
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> 1. GE-600 H Electrical 100 KW 8,00,000
>
> 2. GE-750 H Electrical 250 KW 16,00,000
>
> 3. GE-1000 H Electrical 500 KW 25,00,000
>
> 4. GT-650 H Thermal 2,50,000KC/H 4,50,000
>
>
> 5. GT-750 H Thermal 6,25,000 10,00,000
>
>
> 6. GT-1000 H Thermal 12,50,000 18,00,000
>
>
> 7. GE-100 Electrical 5 KW 1,00,000
>
> 8. GE-350 Electrical 20 KW 2,00,000
>
> 9. GE-600 Electrical 100 KW 8,00,000
>
> 10. GE-750 Electrical 250 KW 16,00,000
>
> 11. GT-400 Thermal 50,000 2,00,000
>
>
> 12. GT-600 Thermal 2,50,000 4,50,000
>
> 13. GT-750 Thermal 6,25,000 10,00,000
>
> 14. GE-100-MP Electrical 10 HP 3,00,000
> (Special)
>
> 15. GM-55 Pumping 5 HP 50,000
>
> 16. GM-100 Pumping 10 HP 70,000
>
> 17. GT-400-INC Incinerator 50,000 K.cal/Hr 3,00,000
> & 50 Kg/Batch
> 18. BC-350 Wood Chip Cutter 50-100 Kg/Hr 50,000
>
> -
> Gasification List Archives:
> http://www.crest.org/discussion/gasification/current/
>
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> Tom Reed, Biomass Energy Foundation, Reedtb2@cs.com
> www.webpan.com/BEF
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--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

 

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From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Sat Nov 17 11:13:51 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:47 2004
Subject: GAS-L: gasifier
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20011117094740.008f42e0@wgs1.btl.net>
Message-ID: <3BF68C95.8FA839FA@cybershamanix.com>

Whoops, sorry, I see the problem. The AEW website lists the price
as "2,00,000" not 200,000. My eyes, seeing the extra comma, added
another zero.
Yes, that is cheap. Although I've also heard a lot of bad things
about Chinese diesels. A lot of people complaining about them on the web
who bought them for the Y2K thing.

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

 

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From snkm at btl.net Sat Nov 17 11:26:10 2001
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:47 2004
Subject: GAS-L: gasifier
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20011117102158.008f7e10@wgs1.btl.net>

At 10:13 AM 11/17/2001 -0600, you wrote:
> Whoops, sorry, I see the problem. The AEW website lists the price
>as "2,00,000" not 200,000. My eyes, seeing the extra comma, added
>another zero.
> Yes, that is cheap. Although I've also heard a lot of bad things
>about Chinese diesels. A lot of people complaining about them on the web
>who bought them for the Y2K thing.
>
>--
>Harmon Seaver
>CyberShamanix
>http://www.cybershamanix.com

Yes -- they have a strange manner with placing the ","

I also just dug up this reply for a quote:

>>>>

Our Rice Husk Gasifier accepts the Rice Husk in its natural form only.
No pelletization or hammer Mill processing is needed. Only the moisture
content is to be checked to contain less than 20%. The cost of our
`GE-1000 H' 500 KW Gasifier is 25,00,000 Indian Rupees and will be 59,523
US Dollars. Please note this is the cost of only Gasifier and the cost of
Dual Fuel Diesel Genset is extra for making a Power Plant.

<<<<

Notice -- diesel genset is extra! Still -- we are looking at a cost of:

$59523/500kw = $119 per kwh of gasifier capacity -- with product cleaned
for operation in a diesel.

Normal rule of thumb is -- $1000 and more per kwh!! -- just for an american
made Gasifier (British are even more pricy -- and so are Europeans)

Anyway - straightens out the comma and pricing issue.

It took me a year to find all this -- so now you are one year ahead --

Good luck --- and give my regards to Suryanarayana Kota.

Peter / Belize

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From jerry5335 at yahoo.com Sat Nov 17 12:46:10 2001
From: jerry5335 at yahoo.com (jerry dycus)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:47 2004
Subject: GAS-L: BECHTEL COMMENTS ON SYNTHETIC FUELS
In-Reply-To: <15a.414ec6b.2926ed47@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20011117174602.30805.qmail@web14004.mail.yahoo.com>

Hi Leyland and All,
Now you know why I put in could/can.
It's sad that they did this, but that's what
happens when gov goes bad.
This is messing up my non-dam hydro project
too.
But it only came into effect a month or 2 ago
so wouldn't have been in effect when the university
started up their biomass generator. Luckily it's only
until the bonds are paid off which should be in a
couple of years. Present contracts were grandfathered
in.
I'm sure if you brought online clean RE
electricity you could get a decent rate on the
electricity or sell it out of state. You can still
make your own without a problem.
Does anyone know how long it's suppose to be and
they go back to net metering?
Thanks,
jerry dycus
--- LINVENT@aol.com wrote:
> Dear Jerry and others,
> The California state legislature forbad the
> off-grid sale of power from
> existing power plants to retail users. The reason
> for this was to replace the
> billions of dollars lost by the power companies
> through the socialization of
> the power grid in California. The School is not
> stupid, just got legislated
> that way. Who says the US has a free economy?
>
> Sincerely,
> Leland T. Taylor
> President
> Thermogenics Inc.
> 7100-2nd St. NW, Albuquerque, New Mexico 87107
> phone 505-761-1454 fax 505-761-1456

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Find the one for you at Yahoo! Personals
http://personals.yahoo.com

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From LINVENT at aol.com Sat Nov 17 12:52:56 2001
From: LINVENT at aol.com (LINVENT@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:47 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Economics vs. energy
Message-ID: <130.4b68374.2927fde6@aol.com>

Dear Peter,
Thoughout history, whenever man attempts to form complete security and
risk reduction to zero, the dark ages follow. A notable exception was the
post plague event. Only when man is pushing the envelope and throwing out
his security blanket, does progress occur. In my opinion, we are in a dark
ages now for social and intellectual reasons. Regulations are to maintain a
"protected status quo", which means to stop progress or change. How sad. Only
out of chaos does order and progress come. Order does nothing but repeat the
same. Order is also the mechanism by which the people in power try to
maintain power. Innovation and change is very disruptive to this status.
Imagine if computers were regulated as they evolved into use. Can you imagine
going to a computer regulating commission and applying for license to sell a
new program or memory chip? Cell phones are now cheaper to own than a fixed
phone line. Why? Because they are not regulated as to costs or services
provided.
In the evolution of a culture, there is a natural tendency to try to
maintain stability and peace. This is a form of laziness when taken to it's
ultimate end. Some is indeed necessary, but it does get out of hand. There
are probably 300 commissions in the State of New Mexico, everything possible
is regulated down to hair stylists or barbers. Who cares? What is the benefit
to cost value? If a hair dresser screws up your hair, are you going to try to
get their license revoked?
The reason the California State Legislature locked in pricing on power is
so that the State could make back the billions of dollars which they "lost"
due to stupid pricing. Now what they have done is additionally stupid as the
power plants will simply shut down as they can ill afford to continue losing
money. California seems to think that the simplest laws of economics do not
apply to them. How silly. Deregulation in the true form would have cheaper
power now than they have and plenty of it. Competition creates the supply.
So, the issue goes back to politics and economics. Economics taught in
school must have been flunked by the State of California regulators and
legislators, or else is Galbraith based.
In other issues, I looked up the Indian gasifier and presume it is a
downdraft unit with cyclone dust collector from the photos. There are no
drawings. Any more information?

Sincerely,
Leland T. Taylor
President
Thermogenics Inc.
7100-2nd St. NW, Albuquerque, New Mexico 87107
phone 505-761-1454 fax 505-761-1456
Attached files are zipped and can be decompressed with <A
HREF="http://www.aladdinsys.com/expander/">www.aladdinsys.com/expander/ </A>

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From snkm at btl.net Sat Nov 17 13:15:03 2001
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:47 2004
Subject: GAS-L: gasifier
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20011117120815.008e8c90@wgs1.btl.net>

At 11:59 AM 11/17/2001 -0600, you wrote:
>Peter
>Any idea what it would cost to ship one of the units to the US?
>Ed Woolsey
>Iowa
>

They say they can fit even the 500 kwh unit into one container for assembly
here. For sure the 100 kwh and smaller units -- maybe two or more of the
real small ones.

Figure around $3500 US for that shipping of a container.

But contact them directly from the WWW site.

http://aewgasifiers.netfirms.com/

Also -- search the gasifier archives -- we had quite a discussion on all
this in the past -- believe Suryanarayana was on the list for a while --
might still be!

Peter / Belize

> -----Original Message-----
>From: Peter Singfield [mailto:snkm@btl.net]
>Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2001 9:50 AM
>To: gasification@crest.org
>Subject: Re: GAS-L: gasifier
>
>At 09:24 AM 11/17/2001 -0600, you wrote:
>>> These are just two makers in India. They produce gasifiers in the
>>range
>>> your interested in. Prices hard to beat -- even if you make your own.
>>
>> AEW is getting almost $42K for a 20KW gasgen unit. That's cheap?
>>Hmmm.
>>
>>--
>>Harmon Seaver
>>CyberShamanix
>>http://www.cybershamanix.com
>
>Harmon;
>
>Here is a price quote list I got from them 16 months ago. (See below)
>
>Using this example:
>
>8. GE-350 Electrical 20 KW 2,00,000
>
>200,000 / 42 = $4761 for a 20 kwh unit.
>
>And yes -- that is more than cheap!!
>
>The 100 kw:
>
>800,000/42 = $19,047 US
>
>Peter / Belize
>
>
>******************appended***********
>
>( Rs.42 = 1 US $)
>--------------------------------------------------------------
>1. GE-600 H Electrical 100 KW 8,00,000
>
>2. GE-750 H Electrical 250 KW 16,00,000
>
>3. GE-1000 H Electrical 500 KW 25,00,000
>
>4. GT-650 H Thermal 2,50,000KC/H 4,50,000
>
>
>5. GT-750 H Thermal 6,25,000 10,00,000
>
>
>6. GT-1000 H Thermal 12,50,000 18,00,000
>
>
>7. GE-100 Electrical 5 KW 1,00,000
>
>8. GE-350 Electrical 20 KW 2,00,000
>
>9. GE-600 Electrical 100 KW 8,00,000
>
>10. GE-750 Electrical 250 KW 16,00,000
>
>11. GT-400 Thermal 50,000 2,00,000
>
>
>12. GT-600 Thermal 2,50,000 4,50,000
>
>13. GT-750 Thermal 6,25,000 10,00,000
>
>14. GE-100-MP Electrical 10 HP 3,00,000
> (Special)
>
>15. GM-55 Pumping 5 HP 50,000
>
>16. GM-100 Pumping 10 HP 70,000
>
>17. GT-400-INC Incinerator 50,000 K.cal/Hr 3,00,000
> & 50 Kg/Batch
>18. BC-350 Wood Chip Cutter 50-100 Kg/Hr 50,000
>
>
>
>
>
>-
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>
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>
>

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From snkm at btl.net Sat Nov 17 13:55:24 2001
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:47 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Diesels for gasifiers
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20011117125120.008f5530@wgs1.btl.net>

 

Harmon;

>Although I've also heard a lot of bad things
>about Chinese diesels.

Just so happens we have a list member that acquired such.

Any comments to add Kevin C???

India is such a large country that many times people in India do not know
what is going on in another corner.

But India makes new old style Listers -- 650 RPM -- forever-diesels -- 6 HP.

These are heavy power plant single cylinder diesel engines that will run
forever!!

I am trying to get a price on these -- but no luck to date.

If you want to see what I am talking about:

http://www.planetace.com/ashwamegh/product2.htm

(For brand new "antiques")

And if you want all the specs of the original --

http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel/51P1data.htm

And keep clicking. A real trip at that site!!

If you think this kind of researching is a five minute deally - think again.

Why do I have this at hand?

Well, you are looking at the perfect block for a single cylinder uniflow
engine of extremely high efficiencies running on a refrigerant working
fluid. I simply have to install a custom cylinder head to any of these old
diesels -- and bing -- life-time steam engine! Yes folks -- it is that simple!

Now -- want me to really blow your minds??

How would you like to know the place in the US selling these??

As in:

India made Lister type Cold Start (CS), Very Heavy, Lifetime Diesel
engines. Hand Start. No Radiator ( engines okay for thermosiphon cooling)
Slow speed Diesels 6HP (650 RPM) 8HP (850 RPM) 10 HP (1000 RPM) Qty 92

I have yet to contact this man -- but figure around $650 US per unit.

There now -- the small gasifier power plant people here on this list should
be content to digest all of this!

Merry Christmas -- I've just shown you how to do this for 1/10 of the
normal cost -- and if you do not believe me -- ask Tom T!

Peter / Belize

 

At 10:13 AM 11/17/2001 -0600, you wrote:
> Whoops, sorry, I see the problem. The AEW website lists the price
>as "2,00,000" not 200,000. My eyes, seeing the extra comma, added
>another zero.
> Yes, that is cheap. Although I've also heard a lot of bad things
>about Chinese diesels. A lot of people complaining about them on the web
>who bought them for the Y2K thing.
>
>--
>Harmon Seaver
>CyberShamanix
>http://www.cybershamanix.com
>
>
>

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From snkm at btl.net Sat Nov 17 15:38:36 2001
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:47 2004
Subject: GAS-L: My Turn -- need some info
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20011117143442.008f7230@wgs1.btl.net>

 

Doing a cost appraisal comparison of operating a Wartsila.

What is a good figure for the weight -- in kilo -- of a standard barrel of
Crude oil??

What would be a good average "heat-value" (as in btu per pound -- but
metric is fine -- have conversion software) of crude?

Anyone know??

Peter / Belize

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From snkm at btl.net Sat Nov 17 16:22:47 2001
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:47 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Help!!!
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20011117145635.009143b0@wgs1.btl.net>

 

How many BTU's (or metric equivalent) in one international standard --
barrel of crude??

I know this varies -- what would it be for light crude? Heavy crude -- and
is not the price according to "heat" value??

What is a good "working" figure??

Peter / Belize

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From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Sat Nov 17 16:26:55 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:47 2004
Subject: [Fwd: GAS-L: gasifier]
Message-ID: <3BF6D5FC.627898FF@cybershamanix.com>

I think possibly this was meant for the entire list, not just me.

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

 

To: hseaver@cybershamanix.com
Subject: Re: GAS-L: gasifier
From: Greko40@aol.com
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 12:32:45 EST

In a message dated 11/17/01 9:10:26 AM PDT, hseaver@cybershamanix.com writes:

<< 200,000 / 42 = $4761 for a 20 kwh unit.
> >>

I am a reader of this list but I am not an engineer or an accountant. Just
somebody very interested in energy. I live in a rural area of Washington
state with abundant wood resource. If I sold power from this 20 kwh unit to
the power company at the same rate I buy which is somewhere around 5 cents
per kilowatt hour how much 'money' would this unit be generating? I know it
is not quite this simple but I just want to get a sense of this.

Thank you,
Kirk

 

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From snkm at btl.net Sat Nov 17 18:28:51 2001
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:47 2004
Subject: [Fwd: GAS-L: gasifier]
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20011117172420.009f9100@wgs1.btl.net>

 

Dear Harmon and the rest of this list:

This Url demonstrates very clearly how to sell power to the grid and get
top dollar for it.

http://www.homepower.com/rogues.htm

Make your personal meter run backward -- negate your bill!!

As in run your gasifier power plant a few hours per day -- run the meter
backwards -- then use grid the rest of the time.

Who needs a huge battery pack -- right??

I just love these style solutions -- but suppose Big Brother will soon
close that loop-hole -- right?

Still -- some businesses would do well off running a medium size biomass
wastes gasifier in this manner --- until the hammer comes down on this last
little corner of "free" enterprise.

And Kirk -- at 5 cents per kwh -- don't even bother! Will not pay for the
effort.

Unless you do it for "fun" -- and maybe for some future security of being
power independent -- but I'll bet there is at least a 30 years "ride" of
cheap power ahead of us right now.

Peter Singfield in Belize Central America -- where power costs 18 cents US
per kwh.

**************************************

At 03:26 PM 11/17/2001 -0600, you wrote:
> I think possibly this was meant for the entire list, not just me.
>
>
>--
>Harmon Seaver
>CyberShamanix
>http://www.cybershamanix.com
>
>Return-Path: <Greko40@aol.com>
>Received: from imo-d06.mx.aol.com (imo-d06.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.38])
> by cybershamanix.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id fAHHWqM10284
> for <hseaver@cybershamanix.com>; Sat, 17 Nov 2001 11:32:52 -0600
>Received: from Greko40@aol.com
> by imo-d06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v31_r1.9.) id t.34.1dfc5990 (3982)
> for <hseaver@cybershamanix.com>; Sat, 17 Nov 2001 12:32:45 -0500 (EST)
>From: Greko40@aol.com
>Message-ID: <34.1dfc5990.2927f93d@aol.com>
>Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 12:32:45 EST
>Subject: Re: GAS-L: gasifier
>To: hseaver@cybershamanix.com
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows sub 112
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>
>In a message dated 11/17/01 9:10:26 AM PDT, hseaver@cybershamanix.com writes:
>
><< 200,000 / 42 = $4761 for a 20 kwh unit.
> > >>
>
>
>I am a reader of this list but I am not an engineer or an accountant. Just
>somebody very interested in energy. I live in a rural area of Washington
>state with abundant wood resource. If I sold power from this 20 kwh unit to
>the power company at the same rate I buy which is somewhere around 5 cents
>per kilowatt hour how much 'money' would this unit be generating? I know it
>is not quite this simple but I just want to get a sense of this.
>
>Thank you,
>Kirk
>
>-
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>http://www.crest.org/discussion/gasification/current/
>
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>Tom Reed, Biomass Energy Foundation, Reedtb2@cs.com
>www.webpan.com/BEF
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From snkm at btl.net Sat Nov 17 18:52:10 2001
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:47 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Help!!! (Crude oil info)
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20011117174806.009f9a30@wgs1.btl.net>

 

How many BTU's (or metric equivalent) in one international standard --
barrel of crude??

Here it is folks --

1 barrel (bbl) crude oil = 42* gallons = 5.8 x 106 Btu = 6.12 x 109 J

and lots more at:

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~rcnh/gs102/EnergyEquiv.html

Peter / Belize

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From snkm at btl.net Sat Nov 17 22:04:46 2001
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:47 2004
Subject: [Fwd: GAS-L: gasifier]
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20011117202027.00a02460@wgs1.btl.net>

Hello again Harmon;

Well -- first of all -- you have to figure 30% diesel --

These systems run about 16% over-all efficiencies when in this mode.

The 30% diesel cost will come out to more than the 6 cents -- probably.

Ergo -- get a bigger diesel -- convert to run on pure producer gas -- to
make up for the derating.

We have a real expert at that on this list. Tom T. But he does this with
large systems.

If I was Tom -- and with what you mention below -- I would be getting real
interested in importing India gasifiers and those larger old style Listers.

Would be no problem to squeeze 30 kwh out of such a system -- and very
reliable.

(They come in four cylinder models -- and make more power if they are
turned faster -- which would be easy -- when your starting at 650 rpm)

You have to put in spark plugs and ignition and timing. Reduce the
compression somewhat (thicker head gasket or carve the piston -- or both).

Why not use a car motor?? Because it will not live long under this kind of
use. An old gasoline tractor engine would be OK though. If you had some
kicking around.

Need big bore long stroke.

Tom T. -- what say??

Me -- I'm stuck here in a small and backward country where they throw you
in jail if you get caught making your own power instead of paying the 18
cents US per kwh the company owning the grid charges. And they have the
only "concession" to make and sell power -- period! (A Canadian Company
called Fortes)

But Tom could definitely design and supply a complete line suitable for
this kind of operation -- is actually in this business -- but up to now --
has only been involved in the big stuff --

I'm getting awfully tempted to move up to Wisconsin though and do just this
-- but hear you do not want any more foreigners in your country.

Even us old expat Canadians.

Imagine every farmer in Wisconsin would want one of those.

Hey -- maybe we could do this all by internet?

Peter / Belize

 

At 07:52 PM 11/17/2001 -0600, you wrote:
> Oh no, Peter, you aren't aware of what's happening in the US. Many
(well,
>some) are passing "net metering" laws that are quite good. Others are
passing ones
>that aren't so good, but, for instance, here in Wisconsin, I can set up a
20KW
>rig, which, if fueled by renewables, the utility has to pay me for at retail
>rates. Nothing over 20KW, tho, but I can pump that 20KW into the grid 24
hours a
>day, 365 a year, which is a tidy sum in my pocket. California just jumped
from
>10KW to 100KW that they have to buy. Other states, however, are only
forcing the
>power company to let you run the meter backwards, but if you produce more
than you
>use in the year, you get no check from them, and it's zeroed out at years
end.
>And absurd ripoff, but there you are.
> I've not yet quite figured out exactly what my WI utility will pay,
but at the
>very least it's $0.0661@KW, so that would be almost $1000 @ month in my
pocket,
>plus, of course, I'd run a 30KW, not 20KW so I'd be assured of having all my
>household power for free as well. Of course I realize there are other costs,
>repairs, etc. -- but also the utility will buy my additional (above 20KW) at
>another rate, the same as they pay other utility companies, I believe.
>
>Peter Singfield wrote:
>
>> Dear Harmon and the rest of this list:
>>
>> This Url demonstrates very clearly how to sell power to the grid and get
>> top dollar for it.
>>
>> http://www.homepower.com/rogues.htm
>>
>> Make your personal meter run backward -- negate your bill!!
>>
>> As in run your gasifier power plant a few hours per day -- run the meter
>> backwards -- then use grid the rest of the time.
>> Peter Singfield in Belize Central America -- where power costs 18 cents US
>> per kwh.
>>
>
> And I think my brother in New York pays over 16 cents -- but here
again, I'm
>not sure how much of that is for the "electricity" and how much is the "wire"
>charge, and the "surcharge" and the "added" charge and all the other bs
they stick
>you with -- that you won't be getting back when they pay you.
>
>
>--
>Harmon Seaver
>CyberShamanix
>http://www.cybershamanix.com
>
>
>

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From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Sun Nov 18 02:54:49 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:47 2004
Subject: [Fwd: GAS-L: gasifier]
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20011117202027.00a02460@wgs1.btl.net>
Message-ID: <3BF7691D.D2661E8@cybershamanix.com>

Peter Singfield wrote:

> Hello again Harmon;
>
> Well -- first of all -- you have to figure 30% diesel --

No you don't. Not at all. You can use gasoline engines (much more common
in the US in the first place) or you can use diesel and just run barely enough
diesel to cause ignition. I know how to do that, I've worked on enough diesels I
guess.
Also we have an extremely plentiful supply of waste vegetable oil here
(fryer oil) which is free for the taking. Restaurants have to pay to have it
hauled, in fact. Turn it into biodiesel or simply filter it, heat the tank, and
run it straight.
Free fuel, at any rate.

> These systems run about 16% over-all efficiencies when in this mode.
>
> The 30% diesel cost will come out to more than the 6 cents -- probably.
>

Forget all that. I wouldn't pay a penny for diesel.

>
> Ergo -- get a bigger diesel -- convert to run on pure producer gas -- to
> make up for the derating.

Right - used engines are cheap. I can even get 7600cc diesels new surplus
for around $1000, or less. Or pick up good gasoline engines for a lot less. For
that matter, I've got a a couple of 4300cc long stroke 6 cyl. engines sitting
around that run fine.
But actually I'm more interested in a good steady source of cheap engines
that could be used. Probably rebuilding engines from the junk yard is the best
idea.

> We have a real expert at that on this list. Tom T. But he does this with
> large systems.
>
> If I was Tom -- and with what you mention below -- I would be getting real
> interested in importing India gasifiers and those larger old style Listers.

Somehow that doesn't quite work out economically. A 20KW gasifier (no
engine or generator) for $4200 plus another $1-2K for shipping? I'd bet you could
find people here would make them for less. Not to mention the *huge* supply of
used engines sitting around. And other parts
Think recycle.

> Would be no problem to squeeze 30 kwh out of such a system -- and very
> reliable.

Yup, I could do that with an old chevy pickup engine, a few steel drums,
assorted parts, and a surplus generator.

>
>
> (They come in four cylinder models -- and make more power if they are
> turned faster -- which would be easy -- when your starting at 650 rpm)
>
> You have to put in spark plugs and ignition and timing. Reduce the
> compression somewhat (thicker head gasket or carve the piston -- or both).

Well, that's easier said than done. Where do you plug in the distributor,
for example? And why reduce the compression? On gasoline engines you have to
increase it by quite a bit to get good power.

>
>
> Why not use a car motor?? Because it will not live long under this kind of
> use.

Whooey. Running at 1800 rpm a car engine will last forever.

> Need big bore long stroke.

No, just long stroke, ideally. But any engine will do, actually. Some are
more optimal than others. A little 1600cc VW diesel engine is an excellent
choice for a 20KW unit. Why not -- heck, buy two or three, keep them for spares,
they're dirt cheap. Maybe even free -- who else would want them?

> I'm getting awfully tempted to move up to Wisconsin though and do just this
> -- but hear you do not want any more foreigners in your country.

Well, that's just the crooks in government.

>
> Imagine every farmer in Wisconsin would want one of those.

Or would build his own once someone told him about it. Amazing how many
farmers have both arc welders and a plentiful supply of old car and truck
engines. Plus a ton of other junk sitting around to build stuff out of.

>
>
> Hey -- maybe we could do this all by internet?
>
> Peter / Belize
>
> At 07:52 PM 11/17/2001 -0600, you wrote:
> > Oh no, Peter, you aren't aware of what's happening in the US. Many
> (well,
> >some) are passing "net metering" laws that are quite good. Others are
> passing ones
> >that aren't so good, but, for instance, here in Wisconsin, I can set up a
> 20KW
> >rig, which, if fueled by renewables, the utility has to pay me for at retail
> >rates. Nothing over 20KW, tho, but I can pump that 20KW into the grid 24
> hours a
> >day, 365 a year, which is a tidy sum in my pocket. California just jumped
> from
> >10KW to 100KW that they have to buy. Other states, however, are only
> forcing the
> >power company to let you run the meter backwards, but if you produce more
> than you
> >use in the year, you get no check from them, and it's zeroed out at years
> end.
> >And absurd ripoff, but there you are.
> > I've not yet quite figured out exactly what my WI utility will pay,
> but at the
> >very least it's $0.0661@KW, so that would be almost $1000 @ month in my
> pocket,
> >plus, of course, I'd run a 30KW, not 20KW so I'd be assured of having all my
> >household power for free as well. Of course I realize there are other costs,
> >repairs, etc. -- but also the utility will buy my additional (above 20KW) at
> >another rate, the same as they pay other utility companies, I believe.
> >
> >Peter Singfield wrote:
> >
> >> Dear Harmon and the rest of this list:
> >>
> >> This Url demonstrates very clearly how to sell power to the grid and get
> >> top dollar for it.
> >>
> >> http://www.homepower.com/rogues.htm
> >>
> >> Make your personal meter run backward -- negate your bill!!
> >>
> >> As in run your gasifier power plant a few hours per day -- run the meter
> >> backwards -- then use grid the rest of the time.
> >> Peter Singfield in Belize Central America -- where power costs 18 cents US
> >> per kwh.
> >>
> >
> > And I think my brother in New York pays over 16 cents -- but here
> again, I'm
> >not sure how much of that is for the "electricity" and how much is the "wire"
> >charge, and the "surcharge" and the "added" charge and all the other bs
> they stick
> >you with -- that you won't be getting back when they pay you.
> >
> >
> >--
> >Harmon Seaver
> >CyberShamanix
> >http://www.cybershamanix.com
> >
> >
> >
>
> -
> Gasification List Archives:
> http://www.crest.org/discussion/gasification/current/
>
> Gasification List Moderator:
> Tom Reed, Biomass Energy Foundation, Reedtb2@cs.com
> www.webpan.com/BEF
> List-Post: <mailto:gasification@crest.org>
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>
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> -
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> http://www.fsec.ucf.edu/bioam/
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> http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

 

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From snkm at btl.net Sun Nov 18 08:49:13 2001
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:47 2004
Subject: [Fwd: GAS-L: gasifier]
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20011118074450.009fa520@wgs1.btl.net>

 

Dear Harmon;

Sounds like you have everything under control. Just do some research on
tars and engine damage.

Then -- what is you fuel? And is it dry enough? If not -- how to dry it?

There are other people far more competent -- on this list -- to discuss
these topics with.

I have to take a break.

Peter / Belize

At 01:54 AM 11/18/2001 -0600, you wrote:
>Peter Singfield wrote:
>
>> Hello again Harmon;
>>
>> Well -- first of all -- you have to figure 30% diesel --
>
> No you don't. Not at all. You can use gasoline engines (much more
common
>in the US in the first place) or you can use diesel and just run barely
enough
>diesel to cause ignition. I know how to do that, I've worked on enough
diesels I
>guess.
> Also we have an extremely plentiful supply of waste vegetable oil here
>(fryer oil) which is free for the taking. Restaurants have to pay to have it
>hauled, in fact. Turn it into biodiesel or simply filter it, heat the
tank, and
>run it straight.
> Free fuel, at any rate.
>
>> These systems run about 16% over-all efficiencies when in this mode.
>>
>> The 30% diesel cost will come out to more than the 6 cents -- probably.
>>
>
> Forget all that. I wouldn't pay a penny for diesel.
>
>>
>> Ergo -- get a bigger diesel -- convert to run on pure producer gas -- to
>> make up for the derating.
>
> Right - used engines are cheap. I can even get 7600cc diesels new
surplus
>for around $1000, or less. Or pick up good gasoline engines for a lot
less. For
>that matter, I've got a a couple of 4300cc long stroke 6 cyl. engines sitting
>around that run fine.
> But actually I'm more interested in a good steady source of cheap
engines
>that could be used. Probably rebuilding engines from the junk yard is the
best
>idea.
>
>> We have a real expert at that on this list. Tom T. But he does this with
>> large systems.
>>
>> If I was Tom -- and with what you mention below -- I would be getting real
>> interested in importing India gasifiers and those larger old style Listers.
>
> Somehow that doesn't quite work out economically. A 20KW gasifier (no
>engine or generator) for $4200 plus another $1-2K for shipping? I'd bet
you could
>find people here would make them for less. Not to mention the *huge*
supply of
>used engines sitting around. And other parts
> Think recycle.
>
>
>> Would be no problem to squeeze 30 kwh out of such a system -- and very
>> reliable.
>
> Yup, I could do that with an old chevy pickup engine, a few steel drums,
>assorted parts, and a surplus generator.
>
>>
>>
>> (They come in four cylinder models -- and make more power if they are
>> turned faster -- which would be easy -- when your starting at 650 rpm)
>>
>> You have to put in spark plugs and ignition and timing. Reduce the
>> compression somewhat (thicker head gasket or carve the piston -- or both).
>
> Well, that's easier said than done. Where do you plug in the
distributor,
>for example? And why reduce the compression? On gasoline engines you have to
>increase it by quite a bit to get good power.
>
>>
>>
>> Why not use a car motor?? Because it will not live long under this kind of
>> use.
>
> Whooey. Running at 1800 rpm a car engine will last forever.
>
>> Need big bore long stroke.
>
> No, just long stroke, ideally. But any engine will do, actually.
Some are
>more optimal than others. A little 1600cc VW diesel engine is an excellent
>choice for a 20KW unit. Why not -- heck, buy two or three, keep them for
spares,
>they're dirt cheap. Maybe even free -- who else would want them?
>
>
>> I'm getting awfully tempted to move up to Wisconsin though and do just this
>> -- but hear you do not want any more foreigners in your country.
>
> Well, that's just the crooks in government.
>
>>
>> Imagine every farmer in Wisconsin would want one of those.
>
> Or would build his own once someone told him about it. Amazing how many
>farmers have both arc welders and a plentiful supply of old car and truck
>engines. Plus a ton of other junk sitting around to build stuff out of.
>

-
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Tom Reed, Biomass Energy Foundation, Reedtb2@cs.com
www.webpan.com/BEF
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From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Sun Nov 18 12:23:11 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:47 2004
Subject: [Fwd: GAS-L: gasifier]
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20011118074450.009fa520@wgs1.btl.net>
Message-ID: <3BF7EE56.57C13A30@cybershamanix.com>

Peter Singfield wrote:

> Dear Harmon;
>
> Sounds like you have everything under control. Just do some research on
> tars and engine damage.

Yes, tars and fly ash are definitely a concern and need be dealt with --
another reason to consider just using junkyard engines, with several kept in
reserve, I guess. 8-)

>
>
> Then -- what is you fuel? And is it dry enough? If not -- how to dry it?
>
>

Another concern -- I suppose the heat from cogen could help with drying.
Also I'm thinking of building some sort of hydraulic (running off the genset
engine, of course) "crusher" for pallets. But also thinking of many other fuel
sources than wood chips -- corn cobs, cattail leaves, etc. Eventually a
pelletizer would be nice to have.
Corn is another very strong option, especially waste (damaged) corn.
OTOH, how crucial is it to have really dry fuel? If you look at the Kuenzel
boiler design (http://www.kuenzel.de), they are claiming complete gasification of
green wood, albeit using forced draft for both primary and secondary air, as well
as an oxy sensor in the flue and computer controlled.
Which may be the way to go. I'd asked previously about the possibility of
building a gasifier that burned logs downdraft style, with forced draft, but got
no real response.

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

 

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From imain at stemwinder.org Mon Nov 19 16:31:35 2001
From: imain at stemwinder.org (Ian Main)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:47 2004
Subject: [Fwd: GAS-L: gasifier]
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20011118074450.009fa520@wgs1.btl.net>
Message-ID: <20011119133112.B4892@slug.stemwinder.org>

You should take a look at this site:

http://www.fortunecity.com/greenfield/bp/16/woodfire.htm

This guy has been running a wood gasified car for a while now, and has
a complete writup of what he does to make things work. He uses a
wet filtering system to get all the particulates out of the gas.
He also injects steam into the gasifier to get more hydrogen production.
I haven't heard of this prior, but I've seen it a few other places
since.

Ian

On Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 11:22:41AM -0600, Harmon Seaver wrote:
> Peter Singfield wrote:
>
> > Dear Harmon;
> >
> > Sounds like you have everything under control. Just do some research on
> > tars and engine damage.
>
> Yes, tars and fly ash are definitely a concern and need be dealt with --
> another reason to consider just using junkyard engines, with several kept in
> reserve, I guess. 8-)
>
> >
> >
> > Then -- what is you fuel? And is it dry enough? If not -- how to dry it?
> >
> >
>
> Another concern -- I suppose the heat from cogen could help with drying.
> Also I'm thinking of building some sort of hydraulic (running off the genset
> engine, of course) "crusher" for pallets. But also thinking of many other fuel
> sources than wood chips -- corn cobs, cattail leaves, etc. Eventually a
> pelletizer would be nice to have.
> Corn is another very strong option, especially waste (damaged) corn.
> OTOH, how crucial is it to have really dry fuel? If you look at the Kuenzel
> boiler design (http://www.kuenzel.de), they are claiming complete gasification of
> green wood, albeit using forced draft for both primary and secondary air, as well
> as an oxy sensor in the flue and computer controlled.
> Which may be the way to go. I'd asked previously about the possibility of
> building a gasifier that burned logs downdraft style, with forced draft, but got
> no real response.
>

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From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Tue Nov 20 01:49:22 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:47 2004
Subject: [Fwd: GAS-L: gasifier]
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20011118074450.009fa520@wgs1.btl.net>
Message-ID: <3BF9FCCD.6D87BA2@cybershamanix.com>

Yes, I've read that site. I also had a book from the Missouri Dep't
of Natural Resources on building gasifiers for small sawmills which was
fairly in depth on filtering. Wish I could find it, I bought it about 20
years ago along with a big gasifier plan set from Mother Earth News, but
can't locate either of them so far --probably in a box somewhere.
There's what looks to be a good book on dealing with tars onf the
BEF site that I've been meaning to buy. I was also intrigued by his use
of steam -- and wondering why using green wood wouldn't have the same effect?

Ian Main wrote:

> You should take a look at this site:
>
> http://www.fortunecity.com/greenfield/bp/16/woodfire.htm
>
> This guy has been running a wood gasified car for a while now, and has
> a complete writup of what he does to make things work. He uses a
> wet filtering system to get all the particulates out of the gas.
> He also injects steam into the gasifier to get more hydrogen production.
> I haven't heard of this prior, but I've seen it a few other places
> since.

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

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From LINVENT at aol.com Tue Nov 20 14:28:05 2001
From: LINVENT at aol.com (LINVENT@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:47 2004
Subject: [Fwd: GAS-L: gasifier]
Message-ID: <55.1df49a76.292c08ad@aol.com>

Dear Peter and Harmon,
I have not been able to respond to e-mails for the last couple of days,
and I see my name is used in connection with power generation and so on.
I wonder if the regulators will allow self-generation, off grid power.
When we were working with Ontario Hydro a few years ago, you could not
generate power without their being part of the deal. Apparently, the
deregulation is moving ahead up there.
New Mexico passed a deregulation law which was fought for by the utility,
PNM which allowed in language connection and net metering to the grid, but
had a hooker, the power which was purchased had a "Stranded Cost" charge
which was arbitrarily set by the Utility at any rate they wanted. I figured
they would use $.20/Kwhr as a charge. So, they would charge you this amount
and then pay you for whatever the other rates would be, you would have to pay
them to sell electricity to them. The issue was moot for two reasons, one is
that PNM would never agree to a grid connection and use up lots of engine
ering time running you around in circles over the technical issues of
connection and one guy had 29 contracts for power generation and no
connections approved by PNM. The second reason is after the California
debacle, the legislature here panicked and delayed deregulation for 2 years.
HaHa. PNM had up to 150 lobbyists/engineers/PR people working on getting the
deregulation bill passed in a form they would make tons of money off of and
then had it shelved.
The US Forest Service here has basically given up on power generation as
an option because of PNM's attitude. They have several million tons of
biomass for power generation but will not sell 1 kilowatt to PNM.
As to diesel engine operation, we have run diesel engines on producer gas
with good results. Depending upon engine configuration, from 1% to 30% diesel
can be used with nearly same output as diesel alone with producer gas. Some
engines are designed to use the 1% amount and mix the air/fuel well enough to
operate at this level, the diesel being used for replacement of the ignition
system alone.
The reason we have focussed on what I would call medium range systems is
because of the economics. Fully automatic, limited operator interface systems
have the same level of controls regardless of size and for this reason, we
have selected this range of operation. For personal or residential use, the
fueling and discharge is more laborious than most people would want and
having to interface with a manual system is not marketable. There are
naturally exceptions to this rule, but not as many as would justify a good
market approach. A natural residential fuel would be plastics, paper and
foostuffs. These do not work well in the typical gasifier.

Sincerely,
Leland T. Taylor
President
Thermogenics Inc.
7100-2nd St. NW, Albuquerque, New Mexico 87107
phone 505-761-1454 fax 505-761-1456
Attached files are zipped and can be decompressed with <A
HREF="http://www.aladdinsys.com/expander/">www.aladdinsys.com/expander/ </A>

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From kchishol at fox.nstn.ca Tue Nov 20 23:14:41 2001
From: kchishol at fox.nstn.ca (Kevin Chisholm)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:47 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Diesels for gasifiers
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20011117125120.008f5530@wgs1.btl.net>
Message-ID: <004601c17242$9adf0680$c219059a@kevin>

Dear Peter
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Singfield" <snkm@btl.net>
To: <gasification@crest.org>
Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2001 2:52 PM
Subject: GAS-L: Diesels for gasifiers

>
> Harmon;
>
> >Although I've also heard a lot of bad things
> >about Chinese diesels.
>
> Just so happens we have a list member that acquired such.
>
> Any comments to add Kevin C???
>
I purchased a SH121 Walking Tractor from China Depot, in July, configured as
a rototiller. See a picture and specs at
http://www.chinadepot.com/sh121.html

The engine is an AMEC, made by the Changzhou Machinery Company. It is one
massively built piece of machinery... weighs about 1,040 pounds. The engine
is a single cylinder, 12 HP, electric start, heavy design with a large
flywheel. The HP rating is for 12 hour operation.... the 1 hour rating
is13.2 HP.The engine weighs 150 kg. It starts easily, and while there is a
small puff of dark smoke on the first 2 or 3 firings, it cleans up
immediately. Being relatively new and lightly loaded, I cannot comment on
overall durability. However, what I can see of it so far, I am impressed
with it as being a quality engine. Casting quality appears excellent.

I have re-configured it as a "Iron Horse" to haul sawn lumber and small logs
from my woodlot, as a key piece of machinery in a sustainable forestry
management operation. In Low 1st gear, which is used in lauling out wood
over rough ground, the engine will tow a trailer loaded with about 1200
pounds of wood, with the throttle set at the lowest position that permits
smooth operation... about 300 RPM. The engine is thus relatively oversized
for this specific application, and if I do encounter problems, they will
likely be due to underloading.... carbon buildup, etc.

The engine is of an elemental design, and servicing should be quite
intuitive..... it looks like it would be very easy to "figure out what the
problem was, and how to fix it."

In summary, at this stage, I have no concerns about engine quality. Note
that China is a big place, with many engine manufacturers. I am sure that
there are some bad Chinese engines, but from what I can see so far, this is
not one of them.

Hope this is helpful.

Kindest regards,

Kevin Chisholm

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From tmiles at trmiles.com Wed Nov 21 14:20:44 2001
From: tmiles at trmiles.com (Tom Miles)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:47 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Bioenergy 2002 Sept 22-26, Idaho
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011121112039.021c3940@pop3.norton.antivirus>

The Call for Papers is out for Bioenergy 2002, to be held in Boise, Idaho,
September 22-26, 2002. Abstracts are due February 1, 2002.

For information see: www.bioenergy2002.org

 

Thomas R Miles tmiles@trmiles.com
T R Miles, TCI Tel 503-292-0107
1470 SW Woodward Way Fax 503-292-2919
Portland, OR 97225 USA

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From tombreed at home.com Fri Nov 23 09:37:25 2001
From: tombreed at home.com (Thomas Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:47 2004
Subject: Hydrogen PS
Message-ID: <02f701c1742c$34712d60$18e5b618@lakwod3.co.home.com>

 

PS:

I forgot to mention that when hydrogen burns there is a NET
decrease in volume. 

When most fuels burn, they produce the same volume of
combustion products as the combustible gases. 

CH4 + 2 O2 ==> CO2 + 2 H2O  (3 ==> 3)

For H2,

2H2 + O2 ==> 2H2O (3==>2)

So the expansion due to the heat effect is lowered by 33%.

 
TOM REED  BEF

BEGIN:VCARD
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FN:Thomas B Reed
NICKNAME:Tom
ORG:Biomass Energy Foundation;Publication, Consulting, Engineering
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From Carefreeland at aol.com Mon Nov 26 09:49:34 2001
From: Carefreeland at aol.com (Carefreeland@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:47 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Cheapest CO detector
Message-ID: <55.1e4a9b9b.2933b075@aol.com>

For all you combustion heads,
I'm looking out for you. Check this out.
Sportys pilot shop in Batavia, Ohio, USA carries:
CARBON MONOXIDE DETECTOR
Cost in 1997 catalog, US$3.95 5 or more US$3.50
DEADSTOP brand.
FAA (Federal Aviation Administration) says it's the best one out
there.(as of 1997)
"Deadstop warns of the presents of carbon monoxide in the cockpit. A
slight graying of the spot indicates the presents of this deadly, colorless,
odorless gas. Should the spot turn black- this indicates sufficient
concentration to cause sickness, headaches or even death. Spot will return
to normal color after exposure to fresh air. Adhesive backed for easy use in
the car or around the house. Useful life is 30 days once opened. Measures
2&1/8" x2&1/8". "

Just check your local airport pilots supply counter. Maybe an even
better one is out there now. Let me know what you find. We all need a box
of these. Can someone calibrate the greyscale? CO is as dangerous as
altitude, to a pilot who needs all of his/her senses on full alert.
Keep healthy,
Daniel Dimiduk
Shangri-La Research and Development Co.
Dayton, Ohio, USA

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From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Mon Nov 26 11:31:28 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:47 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Cheapest CO detector
In-Reply-To: <55.1e4a9b9b.2933b075@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3C026E39.672CE79D@cybershamanix.com>

Scott (http://www.scottinstruments.com/products/product.cfm?ID=150)
has these little dosimeter badges if you just want that. And a multitude
of other sensors. Don't know their prices yet. But I think the really
cheap sensors are a one-time, throw-away thing, once they've been
exposed they don't clear themselves.
These would seem to be of limited usefulness, however, when what we
really need is something to monitor the actual amounts of unburned CO so
as to facilitate the adjustments in stove design. I guess I'm not
personally over concerned about the dangers of CO (although I am well
aware of them, and have been), I've developed over the years a rather
high sensitivity to noxious vapours of all types -- simply riding a
bicycle or walking past someone smoking, for instance, or even being in
a store with lots of chemical smells --- ugh!

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

 

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From Gavin at roseplac.worldonline.co.uk Mon Nov 26 16:43:54 2001
From: Gavin at roseplac.worldonline.co.uk (Gavin Gulliver-Goodall)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:47 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Cheapest CO detector
In-Reply-To: <3C026E39.672CE79D@cybershamanix.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJLGAAFJBOBCKKPMGGEPNCDAA.Gavin@roseplac.worldonline.co.uk>

Guys, if you're going to spend on a box of 10 or 50 co stickers @$3.50 then
why not spend £100 on a personal CO sensor that gives a ppm reading. In the
UK Casella and Kane may supply such. I'm sure theer are plenty of
manufacturers/importes in the US- checkout plumbers merchants these guysd
use tehm when setting up gas or Oil furnaces.
Cheers
gavin

-----Original Message-----
From: Harmon Seaver [mailto:hseaver@cybershamanix.com]
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 16:31
To: gasification@crest.org
Cc: stoves@crest.org
Subject: Re: GAS-L: Cheapest CO detector

Scott (http://www.scottinstruments.com/products/product.cfm?ID=150)
has these little dosimeter badges if you just want that. And a multitude
of other sensors. Don't know their prices yet. But I think the really
cheap sensors are a one-time, throw-away thing, once they've been
exposed they don't clear themselves.
These would seem to be of limited usefulness, however, when what we
really need is something to monitor the actual amounts of unburned CO so
as to facilitate the adjustments in stove design. I guess I'm not
personally over concerned about the dangers of CO (although I am well
aware of them, and have been), I've developed over the years a rather
high sensitivity to noxious vapours of all types -- simply riding a
bicycle or walking past someone smoking, for instance, or even being in
a store with lots of chemical smells --- ugh!

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

 

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From graeme at powerlink.co.nz Tue Nov 27 01:39:56 2001
From: graeme at powerlink.co.nz (Graeme Williams)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:47 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Gasifiers and engines
Message-ID: <004d01c1770e$34871500$199436d2@graeme>

Dear Gasification Colleagues

I have watched with interest the latest round of enthusiastic discussion on
cheap gasifiers and even cheaper engines. Its even more interesting to read
the conclusions of these exchanges, particularly when so few have even seen
or operated a gasifier.

The difficulty of actually purchasing a gasifier from a manufacturer by an
individual is no indication that an untapped market exists. Compared to the
manufacturers difficulty of finding an individual customer with money in a
market assessed to be large is a different story altogether.

Some of you seemed impressed by the cost of Indian gasifiers even though to
me their cost is far in excess of their worth if we built the same thing in
New Zealand. Have a look again at the Pacific Class gasifier on the
Fluidyne archive (www.fluidynenz.250x.com) and see what you could have
bought in 1998 for US$15,996 FOB Auckland. Freight to almost anywhere
averaged US$4,000 and for this amount you also got 2 years consumable spare
parts and a 1 year warranty on our components. We also included 2 weeks of
training and installation assistance to the customer in his country of use,
although he had to feed and house us once we arrived. Did that sound like a
good deal?

How about adding a Lister Dual fuelled generator set with a power supply
stability factor that exceeded the regulatory specifications, complete of
course with the Lister guarantee if used on our gasifier?

Even with price, service, and equipment like this we still couldn't sell
them!!

I feel quite stupid really when I read how easily it is proposed to convert
this or that engine for use with producer gas, and read a book or two on how
to eliminate tars, particularly when I think of the hoops we jumped through
to meet Listers' and other engine suppliers specifications.

Possibly the ease of driving around Australia and cutting your fuel from
the roadside has appeal, but accessing these web pages from another country
doesn't enable it to be duplicated easily outside Australia.

Dead wood in the Australian bush is unlike anything I have seen on my
travels (I grew up there), in hardness, brittleness, dryness and quality in
its conversion to charcoal. Its possibly the only fuel type where you can
add steam to improve the hydrogen content as there isn't much moisture left
after baking in the sun for untold years. Don't take my word for it
however, and try adding steam to the next wood gasifier that comes your way!

For those of you who have only recently joined this forum, I would recommend
that you take time to read the early Gasification Archives. It does take
time but you will have quite a lot of good solid information and comment on
most of the current subjects being discussed. There is a lot more to
gasification than enthusiasm.

Regards
Doug Williams
Fluidyne Gasification.

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From joacim at ymex.net Tue Nov 27 04:02:31 2001
From: joacim at ymex.net (Joacim Persson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:47 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Hot salt?
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10111270831240.17159-100000@localhost>

 

What happens or may happen if wood soaked in salt is combusted or gasified?
Is there a risk of poisonous chloride substances being formed?

Salt has been used for glazing in potteries since ancient days, so I guess
there must be some sort of well-founded experience of NaCl at temperatures
around and above 1000°C.

(Today is by the way the birthday of Anders Celsius, the astronomer who
invented the °C-scale. He used it the other way around though, with 0° at
boiling temperature for water, and 100° at freezing.)

Joacim
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-- David Korn

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From tombreed at home.com Tue Nov 27 07:44:26 2001
From: tombreed at home.com (Thomas Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:48 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Fluidyne website
In-Reply-To: <004d01c1770e$34871500$199436d2@graeme>
Message-ID: <01d701c17741$2f403080$18e5b618@lakwod3.co.home.com>

Dear All:

I just visited Doug Graeme's website at Fluidyne,

www.fluidynenz.250x.com

and was glad to see a lot of science and engineering data in one place. I'm
not sure I agree with ALL the details, but I suggest that King, Kelley and I
go over them in details and compare with our CPC results....

We all have lots to learn and need to pay particular attention to those with
real experience rather than the "talkers" and theorizers.

TOM REED BEF

Subject: GAS-L: Gasifiers and engines

> Dear Gasification Colleagues
>
> I have watched with interest the latest round of enthusiastic discussion
on
> cheap gasifiers and even cheaper engines. Its even more interesting to
read
> the conclusions of these exchanges, particularly when so few have even
seen
> or operated a gasifier.
>
> The difficulty of actually purchasing a gasifier from a manufacturer by an
> individual is no indication that an untapped market exists. Compared to
the
> manufacturers difficulty of finding an individual customer with money in a
> market assessed to be large is a different story altogether.
>
> Some of you seemed impressed by the cost of Indian gasifiers even though
to
> me their cost is far in excess of their worth if we built the same thing
in
> New Zealand. Have a look again at the Pacific Class gasifier on the
> Fluidyne archive (www.fluidynenz.250x.com) and see what you could have
> bought in 1998 for US$15,996 FOB Auckland. Freight to almost anywhere
> averaged US$4,000 and for this amount you also got 2 years consumable
spare
> parts and a 1 year warranty on our components. We also included 2 weeks
of
> training and installation assistance to the customer in his country of
use,
> although he had to feed and house us once we arrived. Did that sound like
a
> good deal?
>
> How about adding a Lister Dual fuelled generator set with a power supply
> stability factor that exceeded the regulatory specifications, complete of
> course with the Lister guarantee if used on our gasifier?
>
> Even with price, service, and equipment like this we still couldn't sell
> them!!
>
> I feel quite stupid really when I read how easily it is proposed to
convert
> this or that engine for use with producer gas, and read a book or two on
how
> to eliminate tars, particularly when I think of the hoops we jumped
through
> to meet Listers' and other engine suppliers specifications.
>
> Possibly the ease of driving around Australia and cutting your fuel from
> the roadside has appeal, but accessing these web pages from another
country
> doesn't enable it to be duplicated easily outside Australia.
>
> Dead wood in the Australian bush is unlike anything I have seen on my
> travels (I grew up there), in hardness, brittleness, dryness and quality
in
> its conversion to charcoal. Its possibly the only fuel type where you can
> add steam to improve the hydrogen content as there isn't much moisture
left
> after baking in the sun for untold years. Don't take my word for it
> however, and try adding steam to the next wood gasifier that comes your
way!
>
> For those of you who have only recently joined this forum, I would
recommend
> that you take time to read the early Gasification Archives. It does take
> time but you will have quite a lot of good solid information and comment
on
> most of the current subjects being discussed. There is a lot more to
> gasification than enthusiasm.
>
> Regards
> Doug Williams
> Fluidyne Gasification.
>
>
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>
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>

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From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Tue Nov 27 09:54:07 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:48 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Gasifiers and engines
In-Reply-To: <004d01c1770e$34871500$199436d2@graeme>
Message-ID: <3C03A8CA.25292D1C@cybershamanix.com>

That does look quite nice, Graeme. But I can also understand why
you'd be having a difficult time marketing it -- at least in the US.
Most people, at least any of the ones I know, who'd be interested in
this sort of thing, are "back to the lander", homesteaders, etc., who
just aren't going to have the funds for anything near that cost. Or even
the Indian ones. My wife and I have fairly good middle class income, but
there's simply no way I could justify spending $20K on a
gasifier/genset. It's going to have to be home-made, I guess.
And I've thought of building them and selling them, but I really
don't know what the market would be. Maybe if I could sell something for
around $1000-2000, ready to fit on someone's genset.
The whole gasifier concept seems far too complicated for most
people. Those with money will buy solar panels, because it's simple and
doesn't break or require much maintenance. When I start explaining
gasifiers to people, I almost invariably get a "That's too complicated,
I don't want to deal with anything like that!" response.
Gee, even with the fairly simple gasifying wood boiler I'm building
right now, I hear a lot of --"That's too complicated, why don't you
just work more hours and pay the gas company?" And if you add to that
the difficulty in getting *dry* wood chips to feed a gasfier ---

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

 

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From LINVENT at aol.com Tue Nov 27 10:58:37 2001
From: LINVENT at aol.com (LINVENT@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:48 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Gasifiers and engines
Message-ID: <102.ca9b591.2935121d@aol.com>

Dear listers,
Yesterday afternoon I visited a nearby molding company. This company has
been generating tons of waste daily and had a market for the shavings, dust
and so on at a local particle board facility which they shipped to. The
particle board company shut down two weeks ago, but stopped paying for the
waste about 2 years ago. We had discussions with the management about
generating power 1.4megawatts from their waste for their electrical load.
They came over and saw the gasifier running an engine and we didn't hear much
until I visited them yesterday.
In the last 4 months, they have rearranged the plant, added screening and
a fine grinder which makes a wood flour. They are shipping the wood flour to
Louisiana for $70/ton delivered. Their position was that they had to get rid
of all the waste or go out of business. They also bale the shavings and
larger pieces for bedding, a major market for them. They spent $300,000 for
this process and did it very quickly. The income from the bedding is quite
excellent. The wood flour will eventually pay for itself. Their comment that
either do this or go out of business is quite interesting as they could
merely haul it to the dump to get rid of it. We use the waste materials for
our gasification work here on a periodic basis.
They indicated that they would have to run a second shift to operate a
power plant to get rid of all of the fines which would not be economic. Now
they are in a position to run a part operation through the gasifier and get
rid of the waste. Power generation is not a major concern for them although
they pay $.085/kwhr.
At this point, the plant manager told me he is 5 months away from
retirement and will not take on another project before retirement, although
he is in an optimum position to do a gasification power generation plant now
with the balance of materials taken care of. He or his successor would have
to convince the owners of the economics of power generation to get the
financing.
All of this is to say that gasification has a market, but even under the
most optimum of conditions, it is difficult to find and secure.
No wonder people get frustrated in this business.

Sincerely,
Leland T. Taylor
President
Thermogenics Inc.
7100-2nd St. NW, Albuquerque, New Mexico 87107
phone 505-761-1454 fax 505-761-1456
Attached files are zipped and can be decompressed with <A
HREF="http://www.aladdinsys.com/expander/">www.aladdinsys.com/expander/ </A>

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From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Tue Nov 27 12:22:30 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:48 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Gasifiers and engines
In-Reply-To: <102.ca9b591.2935121d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3C03CB8A.D03A8A72@cybershamanix.com>

LINVENT@aol.com wrote:

(snip)

> Power generation is not a major concern for them although
> they pay $.085/kwhr.

Well, the problem is they don't actually pay that, it's just deducted from
their taxes as an operating expense. So what the incentive? Furthermore, if they
expend the capital for gasification and use the fuel (which they are now
selling) for that, producing their own electric -- then they both lose the
profit on the fuel and can no longer deduct the power cost from taxes.

> All of this is to say that gasification has a market, but even under the
> most optimum of conditions, it is difficult to find and secure.
> No wonder people get frustrated in this business.

I can see hope in what some states are doing with net metering, like WI, CA,
MN, and NY, I believe, which will provide a market for the renewable produced
electric. But in most states the net metering only allows you to deduct the
excess from this month on next month's bill, anything else gets zeroed out at
the end of the year.
But if that mill near you was in CA or WI, they could actually sell their
excess power and make a profit. You still have the problem of convincing them of
the feasibility of the whole thing, however.
I can see the market possibilities for large scale industrial units, and
some market say in CA where they can now sell 100KW at retail price, or even
some in WI for 30KW units, if the units themselves were cheap enough, but most
of the people I know personally who are interested are also people who would
just build it themselves.
Maybe it's just a matter of building a market thru education, and I really
don't see anything at all in the mainstream media about gasification. Solar and
wind are about as far as most reporters can see, I guess.

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

 

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From bola at vsnl.com Tue Nov 27 12:51:42 2001
From: bola at vsnl.com (bola@vsnl.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:48 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Power
Message-ID: <20011127175103.EE72E114962@webmail.vsnl.com>

Dear Sir,

I am from the souther part of India. We have a abundent agricultural waste
here. I am giving herewith the charecteristics of one of such agri-waste as
tested at reputed laboratory.

1 Physical Property
Bulk density g/cc .4430
Gross Calorific value Cal/g 4600
Moisture Wt. % 4.78
Fixed Carbon Wt. % 25.39
Volatile matter Wt. 72.56
Ash Content 2.05

2. Ultimate Analysis
a) Carbon 46.08
b) Hydrogen 3.88
c) Nitrogen 0.21
d) Sulphur Nil
e) Moisture 8.85
f) Ash 2.00
Oxygen (by diff) 38.98

3. Ash Chemical Composition % by Wt.
a) Silica (as SiO2) 61.83
b) Iron Oxide (as Fe2O3) 3.99
c) Aluminium Oxide (as Al2O3) 1.99
d) Calcium oxide (as CaO) 25.64
e) Magnesium Oxide (as MgO) 1.88
f) Sodium Oxide (as Na2O) 0.68
g) Potassium Oxide (as K2O) 3.55
h) Sulphate (as SO3) 0.18
i) Phosphate (as P2O5) Trases

4. Ash Fusion Characteristics
a) Initial deformation Temp. (T1) 840
b) Hemispherical Temp. (T2) 920
c) Fusion temp. (T3) 1010

We have around 80 MT of this material per day. The cost of electrical power
is US$ 0.07 per KwH.

Kindly inform

1. Weather it will be possible to produce electrical power ?
2. What will be the suitable technology ?
3. What will be the cost of entire system ?
4. What will be the overall efficiency of conversion ? How much power can be
produced using 80 MT of material ?

Thanks for giving most valued direction. Please put reply to
bolarahul@hotmail.com

Thanks

Rahul Kamath

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From gregandapril at earthlink.net Tue Nov 27 13:31:00 2001
From: gregandapril at earthlink.net (Greg and April)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:48 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Gasifiers and engines
In-Reply-To: <102.ca9b591.2935121d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <008801c17771$9bdf5880$25ab85ce@oemcomputer>

 

----- Original Message -----
From: <LINVENT@aol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2001 08:58
Subject: Re: GAS-L: Gasifiers and engines

. Their comment that
> either do this or go out of business is quite interesting as they could
> merely haul it to the dump to get rid of it.

Have you priced the cost of taking stuff to the dump as of late? The cost of
it, along with everything else is going up. When you take stuff to the dump
(very much so on a ton for ton bases) it can get very expensive, and you
wind up filling the dump, that much sooner ( then the dump closes and then
you have to ship it further, at higher cost to dump).

I used to work for a remodeling company and and taking stuff to the dump was
an ongoing cost that was so high, that after I started, the company started
making more profit (aprox. 2 or 3% more) after I got them to start
salvegeing materials. It was cheeper to take it all the way across town and
give it a way or get money for it ( depending on the material in the truck )
, then to haul it to a dump a couple of miles away.

Greg H.

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From tmiles at trmiles.com Tue Nov 27 14:44:56 2001
From: tmiles at trmiles.com (Tom Miles)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:48 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Gasifiers and engines
In-Reply-To: <004d01c1770e$34871500$199436d2@graeme>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011127092039.026805f0@pop3.norton.antivirus>

Graeme,

You wrote: "There is a lot more to gasification than enthusiasm."

You raise an important issue. $20,000 for a 40 kW dual system, or $500/kW,
should be very attractive since current systems of a similar size seem to
add up to $96,000-$140,000, or $2,400-$3,500/kW. These costs are similar to
steam systems of a comparable size.

Why then are they not used, especially in remote villages where power is
generated with diesels? Why are there not more operating units of the
gasification systems and suppliers listed at
http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml or
http://www.woodgas.com/Gasification.htm ? It is more than economics.

If we look at successful, i.e. continuously running, gasification systems
we find that the people who run them have a dedication to the art and the
technical where-with-all to make them work. It takes a certain technical
"culture" or technical infrastructure for support and maintenance. That
includes not only maintenance and operation of the engine and gasifiers but
also the fuel system. In the case of the Indian gasifiers I suspect that
there is a well organized support organization to keep the gasifiers
operating. I am sure that Fluidyne, BTG, GTZ, World Bank and other groups
that have promoted gasifiers would agree.

In spite of efforts for more than 20 years to promote gasifiers in Alaskan
villages, where diesel power costs $0.40/kW without subsidy, we do not find
biomass gasifiers primarily because most villages, especially in the
tundra, lack the biomass, technical skills, and interest. Nor have
gasifiers been adopted in Southeastern Alaska where biomass is available.
One reason may be that the support system for diesels is well developed
there. Even when diesel generators fail and supplier support is not
available some teachers in the village schools have become skilled diesel
mechanics.

At a workshop last week in Russia a professor from a Siberian energy
institute proposed using gasifiers in remote villages where diesel generate
power costs $0.20/kWh or more. Sawmill owners and village leaders from
Siberia and the Russian Far East told us that they have heard the stories
about WWII gasifiers for many years but so far nobody has demonstrated that
gasifiers are reliable or cost effective enough to use in their conditions.
They even abandon modern combustion turbines in favor of marine diesels
because the marine diesels are easier to maintain and more reliable. For
wood they prefer steam systems.

So it would seem that gasification for power generation requires not only
abundant residues and affordable systems but adequate support for operation
and maintenance. The challenge to gasification enthusiasts is to find
markets or circumstances fit those requirements. What can be done with
Rahul Kamath's 80 tpd of "agri waste"?

Tom

Thomas R Miles tmiles@trmiles.com
T R Miles, TCI Tel 503-292-0107
1470 SW Woodward Way Fax 503-292-2919
Portland, OR 97225 USA

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From tombreed at home.com Tue Nov 27 19:44:44 2001
From: tombreed at home.com (Thomas Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:48 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Gasifiers and engines
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011127092039.026805f0@pop3.norton.antivirus>
Message-ID: <001601c177a5$cd752440$18e5b618@lakwod3.co.home.com>

Dear Tom, Doug and all:

For all the reasons below, we have adapted modern car instrumentation and
computerization into our "turnkey, tarfree" gasifiers at CPC. Prices
$750-3000/kW depending on fuels and options (dryers, chippers, ...)
required.

Onward, TOM REED

Dr. Thomas Reed
The Biomass Energy Foundation
1810 Smith Rd., Golden, CO 80401
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Miles" <tmiles@trmiles.com>
To: <gasification@crest.org>
Cc: "Graeme Williams" <graeme@powerlink.co.nz>
Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2001 11:44 AM
Subject: Re: GAS-L: Gasifiers and engines

> Graeme,
>
> You wrote: "There is a lot more to gasification than enthusiasm."
>
> You raise an important issue. $20,000 for a 40 kW dual system, or $500/kW,
> should be very attractive since current systems of a similar size seem to
> add up to $96,000-$140,000, or $2,400-$3,500/kW. These costs are similar
to
> steam systems of a comparable size.
>
> Why then are they not used, especially in remote villages where power is
> generated with diesels? Why are there not more operating units of the
> gasification systems and suppliers listed at
> http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml or
> http://www.woodgas.com/Gasification.htm ? It is more than economics.
>
> If we look at successful, i.e. continuously running, gasification systems
> we find that the people who run them have a dedication to the art and the
> technical where-with-all to make them work. It takes a certain technical
> "culture" or technical infrastructure for support and maintenance. That
> includes not only maintenance and operation of the engine and gasifiers
but
> also the fuel system. In the case of the Indian gasifiers I suspect that
> there is a well organized support organization to keep the gasifiers
> operating. I am sure that Fluidyne, BTG, GTZ, World Bank and other groups
> that have promoted gasifiers would agree.
>
> In spite of efforts for more than 20 years to promote gasifiers in Alaskan
> villages, where diesel power costs $0.40/kW without subsidy, we do not
find
> biomass gasifiers primarily because most villages, especially in the
> tundra, lack the biomass, technical skills, and interest. Nor have
> gasifiers been adopted in Southeastern Alaska where biomass is available.
> One reason may be that the support system for diesels is well developed
> there. Even when diesel generators fail and supplier support is not
> available some teachers in the village schools have become skilled diesel
> mechanics.
>
> At a workshop last week in Russia a professor from a Siberian energy
> institute proposed using gasifiers in remote villages where diesel
generate
> power costs $0.20/kWh or more. Sawmill owners and village leaders from
> Siberia and the Russian Far East told us that they have heard the stories
> about WWII gasifiers for many years but so far nobody has demonstrated
that
> gasifiers are reliable or cost effective enough to use in their
conditions.
> They even abandon modern combustion turbines in favor of marine diesels
> because the marine diesels are easier to maintain and more reliable. For
> wood they prefer steam systems.
>
> So it would seem that gasification for power generation requires not only
> abundant residues and affordable systems but adequate support for
operation
> and maintenance. The challenge to gasification enthusiasts is to find
> markets or circumstances fit those requirements. What can be done with
> Rahul Kamath's 80 tpd of "agri waste"?
>
> Tom
>
>
> Thomas R Miles tmiles@trmiles.com
> T R Miles, TCI Tel 503-292-0107
> 1470 SW Woodward Way Fax 503-292-2919
> Portland, OR 97225 USA
>
>
> -
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>
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> www.webpan.com/BEF
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> http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
>
>

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From A.Weststeijn at epz.nl Wed Nov 28 13:11:50 2001
From: A.Weststeijn at epz.nl (Weststeijn A)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:48 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Hot salt?
Message-ID: <1D0A4FAC57DFD511A60A00508B5C67750665E4@sp0030.epz.nl>

Dear Joacim,

You ask:
> What happens or may happen if wood soaked in salt is combusted or
> gasified?
> Is there a risk of poisonous chloride substances being formed?
> Salt has been used for glazing in potteries since ancient days, so I guess
> there must be some sort of well-founded experience of NaCl at temperatures
> around and above 1000°C.
>
The real issue here --as I see it-- is maintenance and longevity.

Salts in all shapes and sizes are killing on your equipment at these
temperatures.
Even the modest amounts of potassium in regular biomass (straw, chicken
litter) are quite worrisome to owners of capital intensive boilers (and
gasifiers, I presume).
To my knowledge the Danish power operators have the longest and largest
scale experience with firing and cofiring of straw (a known reference for
alkali's).
Other useful know-how may be gained from chicken litter processors,
including fluidized bed operators like FibroWatt in the UK.
But "wood soaked in salt", as you define it, must be a few steps more severe
again.

I don't believe the issue of poisonous gases will ever make it to the top of
the checklist unless you go to extremes in types of construction materials.
And even then, upholding decent heat transfer rates will require undue
amounts of maintenance work (frequent descaling and likely repairs).

I remember beach wood (drift wood) being the pits for bricked chimneys.
Well, it is the pits for metal as well.

For professional operators, this is like a triangle from hell: cheap fuel
versus (too) high maintenance versus (too) fast deterioration.

 

From doncox at fox.nstn.ca Wed Nov 28 17:08:20 2001
From: doncox at fox.nstn.ca (Don Cox)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:48 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Hot salt?
In-Reply-To: <1D0A4FAC57DFD511A60A00508B5C67750665E4@sp0030.epz.nl>
Message-ID: <005601c17859$27d55780$05640b9a@p2350mhz>

I took note of a message by Andries Weststeijn on this list
talking about wood stoves and burning drift wood or wood fuel containing
salt.

I happen to know a guy in Burlington Ont., Charles Perrault, who has a
patented process for putting a ceramic coating on sheet metal. He's made
stoves out of this stuff that are impervious to salt soaked wood. He's
using one of these stoves to heat his 2500 sq ft. house and it weighs 65
lbs. It's 26 gage steel.

His company is called EcoHeat and there's no web site yet. You can get him
at perrault.cj@sympatico.ca

 

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From graeme at powerlink.co.nz Thu Nov 29 14:26:57 2001
From: graeme at powerlink.co.nz (Graeme Williams)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:48 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Virus Alert
Message-ID: <002c01c1790b$b1763600$729736d2@graeme>

Hi Everyone,
Because of our extensive email list we have decided to quickly email you to
warn of a new virus running rampant as of yesterday.
Be careful and dont open any files or attatchments that come to you via
email unless you ar every sure of the sender. We have already had it sent to
us more than 60 times during yesterday and this morning.
The virus arrives via email attatchments and then sends itself out to
everyone on your email list. It also sets up a file to copy your keystrokes.
I just copied this from Nortons site to assist you.
The first extension that is appended to the file name is one of the
following: .DOC .MP3 .ZIP
The second extension that is appended to the file name is one of the
following: .pif .scr
The resulting file name would look something like this:
CARD.DOC.PIF or NEWS_DOC.MP3.SCR etc.
When executed, this worm copies itself as kernel32.exe in the
"\windows\system" directory. It then adds the following registry value:

HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\RunOnce\Kernel3
2=kernel32.exe.

The best prevention is not to open any files with the extension of .pif or
.src
if you get an email with one of these files attatched then dont open it,
just delete it.

Hope this saves you from getting the virus.
Cheer

Doug Williams
Fluidyne Gasification.

 

 

 

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From tbollman at twlakes.net Thu Nov 29 16:00:58 2001
From: tbollman at twlakes.net (Tim Bollman)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:48 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Questions about gasification
Message-ID: <3C069F8C.000005.88907@default>

 

 

 

<TD id=INCREDITEXTREGION width="100%" style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; PADDING-LEFT: 7px; PADDING-RIGHT: 7px"
>
All,

I anticipate building a gasifier system in the not too distant future
and two questions keep arising about my "mental" plans.

1) Virtually all gasifirer designs I have seen have been cyndrillical
or drum shaped.

Is this due to availability of drum shaped containers, to avoid bio
mass "bridging", ease of construction, other, or all the above?

I envision a retangular hopper with a triangular
grate/reaction/pyrolisis chamber. Am I crazy?

2) Rather than using the gas at the time of generation, I plan to
compress it (similar to LPG) for use later or as needed.

Is there compelling reasons for NOT doing this?

I anticipate compressing to 180 psi at ambient temps (30 to 90
F) in order to avail myself of commonly available LPG valves, tanks,
fittings and gauges.

Thanks for any responses in advance.

Tim Bollman

 

 








 

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From kchishol at fox.nstn.ca Thu Nov 29 17:38:19 2001
From: kchishol at fox.nstn.ca (Kevin Chisholm)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:48 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Questions about gasification
In-Reply-To: <3C069F8C.000005.88907@default>
Message-ID: <008401c17926$1b2f7e20$d119059a@kevin>

Dear Tim

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Bollman" <tbollman@twlakes.net>
To: <gasification@crest.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2001 4:50 PM
Subject: GAS-L: Questions about gasification

All,

I anticipate building a gasifier system in the not too distant future and
two questions keep arising about my "mental" plans.

1) Virtually all gasifirer designs I have seen have been cyndrillical or
drum shaped.

>Is this due to availability of drum shaped containers, to avoid bio mass
"bridging", ease of construction, other, or all the above?

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, and yes.

One of the "other considerations" is gas flow....... hard to get gas to flow
to the corners.

>I envision a retangular hopper with a triangular grate/reaction/pyrolisis
chamber. Am I crazy?

Why would you want to do this?
2) Rather than using the gas at the time of generation, I plan to compress
it (similar to LPG) for use later or as needed.

> Is there compelling reasons for NOT doing this?

Yes, indeed. The capital, energy, and maintenance costs associated with a
compressor.

>I anticipate compressing to 180 psi at ambient temps (30 to 90 F) in order
to avail myself of commonly available LPG valves, tanks, fittings and
gauges.

180 psi isn't much. You will need very large tankage to store a decent
amount of energy.

What do you want ot use the gas to accomplish?

Kindest regards,

Kevin CHisholm

Thanks for any responses in advance.

Tim Bollman

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From tbollman at twlakes.net Thu Nov 29 21:50:04 2001
From: tbollman at twlakes.net (Tim Bollman)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:48 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Gasifier questions
Message-ID: <3C06F177.000005.80277@default>

 

 

 

<TD id=INCREDITEXTREGION width="100%" style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; PADDING-LEFT: 7px; PADDING-RIGHT: 7px"
>
Dear Tim----- Original Message -----From: "Tim
Bollman" <<A
href="mailto:tbollman@twlakes.net">tbollman@twlakes.net>To:
<<A
href="mailto:gasification@crest.org">gasification@crest.org>Sent:
Thursday, November 29, 2001 4:50 PMSubject: GAS-L: Questions about
gasificationAll,I anticipate building a gasifier
system in the not too distant future andtwo questions keep arising
about my "mental" plans.1) Virtually all gasifirer designs I have
seen have been cyndrillical ordrum shaped.>Is this due to
availability of drum shaped containers, to avoid bio mass"bridging",
ease of construction, other, or all the above?Yes, yes, yes, yes,
yes, and yes.One of the "other considerations" is gas flow.......
hard to get gas to flowto the corners.>I envision a
retangular hopper with a triangular grate/reaction/pyrolisischamber.
Am I crazy?Why would you want to do this?

I am basing my design on a very effective wood fired boiler that
I have seen (Menonite made).
The fire box was deep and wide and tilted down to a point in the
back of the stove. This made it easy to load and obviated bridging
problems. The design I envision would also allow differing sizes of
"hoppers" to be used, to allow for system size adjustment etc.

I don't deal with circular fabrication as well as I do with flat
surfaces and planes. I am a structural guy...no longer mechanical....sigh.
Additionaly, my "shop" isn't such that I can undertake anything but the
most rudimentary fabrication.

As to air flow at the corners, I anticipate feeding the
process with a standard size black iron pipe cast into a ferro concrete
grate, said pipes being fed via a double manifold. I will position said
oxygen supplies to minimize the "corner" effect.  I also intend to
stagger the feed pipes side to side to minimize any areas in the reaction
area that might result in less than maximum reaction.

I am still analysing the description of the Imbert gasifier in my
copy of  "Handbook of Biomass Downdraft Gasifier Engine sytems". I
suspect the final layout and design will only be determined by experience
with a working gasifier.

2) Rather than using the gas at the time of generation, I plan to
compressit (similar to LPG) for use later or as needed.> Is
there compelling reasons for NOT doing this?Yes, indeed. The
capital, energy, and maintenance costs associated with
acompressor.
OK, here's the deal. I am off-grid. Supplying electricity for a
fan is a "no-go" situation for me. Additionally, I intend to filter my gas
with a wet system filter (gravity fed water-bath over charcoal filter).
After filtration, I intend to further cool my gas, as well as precipitate
any remaining tar in my gas with a counter weighted
"accumulator" surrounded by a water bath/cooler/seal.

It is my intention to size the accumulator and hopper such that
the fuel in the hopper is close to exhausion at about the time that the
accumulator reaches capacity. The counter weights on the accumulator will
be sized to provide the neccessary draft thru the reaction
chamber......thus no electricity required for operation.

The compressor  would, in this case consist of a suitable
small horse power engine that would be run at the begining of the
gasification cycle to compress the gas into storage tanks, return the
accumulator to it's empty position and fill the cooling water gravity feed
tank all at once. Said engine to be fed by the already produced=and coloed
gas. All the above being done as the hopper was being re-filled, the
pre-drier filled, the fire restarted, flaring off the
"pre-gas".......etc. 
>I anticipate compressing to 180 psi at ambient temps (30
to 90 F) in orderto avail myself of commonly available LPG valves,
tanks, fittings andgauges.180 psi isn't much. You will need
very large tankage to store a decentamount of energy.
As noted above, my intent is to use readily
available  "off the shelf" components to minimize costs. My LPG
guy tells me their systems are rated at 180 psi.
What do you want ot use the gas to accomplish?

In the first incarnation of this system, I would like to replace
the 5 gallons of gasoline that I purchase each week for electrical
generation. I would like the system to operate well enough that I could
store enough "energy" for a week or two in advance. LPG storage tanks are
relatively cheap, if you have sufficent gas of decent quality to fill them
with.

Eventually, I would like this system to supplant all my fuel
needs for 2 trucks, 2 tractors, 2 generators, and my wifes'
car.........and if I can replace my wood stove with a thermostatically
controlled natural gas heater run on wood gas......GREAT.

Even better, if I can run my cook range, water heater
and propane refrigerator, I will be completely energy
independant......VERY COOL. 
Thanks again

Tim
Kindest regards,Kevin CHisholmThanks for any
responses in advance.Tim Bollman-Gasification List
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From LINVENT at aol.com Thu Nov 29 22:19:34 2001
From: LINVENT at aol.com (LINVENT@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:48 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Hot salt?
Message-ID: <aa.287d16b.293854bb@aol.com>

Dear Salters,
Sodium chloride, potassium chloride cannot be dissociated by temperature
alone. Here is the reason. If you were to separate sodium from chlorine, they
would immediately recombine upon as their chemical bonds are so strong. They
will however react with metals and other compounds at elevated temperature.
Dissociation is generally accomplished by electrolysis which produce
hydroxides and chlorine gas. This is how hydroxides are made.

Sincerely,
Leland T. Taylor
President
Thermogenics Inc.
7100-2nd St. NW, Albuquerque, New Mexico 87107
phone 505-761-1454 fax 505-761-1456
Attached files are zipped and can be decompressed with <A
HREF="http://www.aladdinsys.com/expander/">www.aladdinsys.com/expander/ </A>

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From kchishol at fox.nstn.ca Thu Nov 29 22:57:47 2001
From: kchishol at fox.nstn.ca (Kevin Chisholm)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:48 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Gasifier questions
In-Reply-To: <3C06F177.000005.80277@default>
Message-ID: <001201c17952$b90869a0$8119059a@kevin>

Dear Tim
...del...
>I envision a retangular hopper with a triangular grate/reaction/pyrolisis
chamber. Am I crazy?

Why would you want to do this?
>I am basing my design on a very effective wood fired boiler that I have
seen (Menonite made).

There is a major difference; in a gasifier, the gases must flow through the
bed. They don't have to in a boiler.

>The fire box was deep and wide and tilted down to a point in the back of
the stove. This made it easy to load and obviated bridging problems. The
design I envision would also allow differing sizes of "hoppers" to be used,
to allow for system size adjustment etc.

>I don't deal with circular fabrication as well as I do with flat surfaces
and planes. I am a structural guy...no longer mechanical....sigh.
Additionaly, my "shop" isn't such that I can undertake anything but the most
rudimentary fabrication.

OK... then find a round tank. :-)

> As to air flow at the corners, I anticipate feeding the process with a
standard size black iron pipe cast into a ferro concrete grate, said pipes
being fed via a double manifold. I will position said oxygen supplies to
minimize the "corner" effect. I also intend to stagger the feed pipes side
to side to minimize any areas in the reaction area that might result in less
than maximum reaction.

I think you wil find that a round system will be much better, in terms of
the potential to get uniform reaction. This will certainly be the case for
chipped fuels. With stick wood, a case can be made for rectangular gasifying
chambers, but wood lengths should be very uniform, and close to the length
of the gasifying chamber.

>I am still analysing the description of the Imbert gasifier in my copy of
"Handbook of Biomass Downdraft Gasifier Engine sytems". I suspect the final
layout and design will only be determined by experience with a working
gasifier.

2) Rather than using the gas at the time of generation, I plan to compress
it (similar to LPG) for use later or as needed.

> Is there compelling reasons for NOT doing this?

Yes, indeed. The capital, energy, and maintenance costs associated with a
compressor.

>OK, here's the deal. I am off-grid. Supplying electricity for a fan is a
"no-go" situation for me. Additionally, I intend to filter my gas with a wet
system filter (gravity fed water-bath over charcoal filter). After
filtration, I intend to further cool my gas, as well as precipitate any
remaining tar in my gas with a counter weighted "accumulator" surrounded by
a water bath/cooler/seal.

>It is my intention to size the accumulator and hopper such that the fuel in
the hopper is close to exhausion at about the time that the accumulator
reaches capacity. The counter weights on the accumulator will be sized to
provide the neccessary draft thru the reaction chamber......thus no
electricity required for operation.

The interior of the accumulator is under vacuum? If there is any
possibility of air leaks, then you might be making explosive mixtures.
However, it is a cute concept to generate draft without a fan.

>The compressor would, in this case consist of a suitable small horse power
engine that would be run at the begining of the gasification cycle to
compress the gas into storage tanks, return the accumulator to it's empty
position and fill the cooling water gravity feed tank all at once. Said
engine to be fed by the already produced=and coloed gas. All the above being
done as the hopper was being re-filled, the pre-drier filled, the fire
restarted, flaring off the "pre-gas".......etc.

I gather you are running a "batch" type of peration?

>I anticipate compressing to 180 psi at ambient temps (30 to 90 F) in order
to avail myself of commonly available LPG valves, tanks, fittings and
gauges.

180 psi isn't much. You will need very large tankage to store a decent
amount of energy.

> As noted above, my intent is to use readily available "off the shelf"
components to minimize costs. My LPG guy tells me their systems are rated at
180 psi.

Just because they are available and will work under your selected conditions
doesn't mean its a good idea.

What do you want ot use the gas to accomplish?

>In the first incarnation of this system, I would like to replace the 5
gallons of gasoline that I purchase each week for electrical generation. I
would like the system to operate well enough that I could store enough
"energy" for a week or two in advance. LPG storage tanks are relatively
cheap, if you have sufficent gas of decent quality to fill them with.

Have you determined how many LPG storage tanks you would require to store
the energy content of 1 gallon of gasoline at these low pressures?

>Eventually, I would like this system to supplant all my fuel needs for 2
trucks, 2 tractors, 2 generators, and my wifes' car.........and if I can
replace my wood stove with a thermostatically controlled natural gas heater
run on wood gas......GREAT.

Is there a possibility that you might be better off converting the
generators to gasifier fuel, and use direct wood heating for your home?

>Even better, if I can run my cook range, water heater and propane
refrigerator, I will be completely energy independant......VERY COOL.

Yes, it would be neat.

Kindest regards,

Kevin Chisholm

 

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From renertech at xtra.co.nz Fri Nov 30 16:19:12 2001
From: renertech at xtra.co.nz (renertech)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:48 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Gasifier questions
Message-ID: <004001c179e5$47a5bb80$08c736d2@p3coppermine>

 

 

> Dear Tim,
> I have sat out of this one for a couple of days, hoping that someone
else
> might straighten you out, but impatience has got away with me. I think
> that you are either ignorant or forgeting of two very important points!!
> 1/. At 180psi, lpg condenses down to a liquid ie. LPG= Liquid
Petroleum
> Gas.
> That means that an LPG cylinder can contain many many times its volume
> of the expanded gas. Producer gas does not liquify! An lpg cylinder
> will contain enough Producer gas at 180psi to give you about two minutes
> or less of what ever you want to do!!
> 2/. Producer gas, as manufactured the way you are proposing to make it,
is
> mostly inert nitrogen! Unless you plan to use pure oxygen for the
reaction,
> which is an entirely different ballgame to what you are saying, you have
> only the 20% of oxygen present in atmospheric air to enter into any
reaction
> with incandescant carbon and to provide enough surplus energy to
dissociate
> water into oxygen and hydrogen. The cost in pumping 60% or more of
inert
> nitrogen up to any sort of reasonable storage pressure at all, or to
liquify
> it and get a 100% CO & H2 mixture, far exceeds the amount of energy
that
> you might usefully get back out of the storage system. Sorry Matey!
> There is no free lunch! Ken Calvert. Renertech@xtra.co.nz
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kevin Chisholm" <kchishol@fox.nstn.ca>
> To: "Tim Bollman" <tbollman@twlakes.net>; <gasification@crest.org>
> Sent: Friday, November 30, 2001 4:53 PM
> Subject: Re: GAS-L: Gasifier questions
>

 

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