April 2002 Gasification Archive

From jerry5335 at yahoo.com Mon Apr 1 08:54:37 2002
From: jerry5335 at yahoo.com (jerry dycus)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:56 2004
Subject: GAS-L: MSW gasifier
In-Reply-To: <3CA7E288.1030409@cybershamanix.com>
Message-ID: <20020401185431.23474.qmail@web21407.mail.yahoo.com>

Hi Harmon and All,
MSW has a lot of heavy metals and other
nasty stuff. You'd be amazed at what people put down
their drains.
I worry even more that it is being used for
food plant fertilizer from the metals and germs.
jerry dycus
--- Harmon Seaver <hseaver@cybershamanix.com> wrote:
> Paulo posted the other day something about MSW
> not being good
> gasification feedstock because "Pyrolysis of MSW has
> been tried but
> fails every time because commercial scale pyrolysis
> requires a
> homogeneous feedstock."
> I was talking with someone tonight about a
> related subject and he
> mentioned that his local wastewater treatment plant
> produces the MSW
> final product in what sounded like a very
> "homogeneous feedstock",
> essentially it comes out a dryer cylinder in a big
> continous wide sheet
> about 1/4-3/8" thick, looking like cardboard which
> then crumbles quite
> easily. They pay farmers to accept it as fertilizer.
> My ears certainly perked up at this -- am I
> mistaken in thinking
> that this sounds like an excellent feedstock? Is
> this a unique situation?
> Paulo also mentioned plants in Europe having
> problems with emissions
> from gasification of MSW? Are they not burning the
> gas to generate
> power? Is the gas produced from MSW that much
> different than woodgas?
>
>
> --
> Harmon Seaver
> CyberShamanix
> http://www.cybershamanix.com

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From CAVM at aol.com Mon Apr 1 09:20:47 2002
From: CAVM at aol.com (CAVM@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:56 2004
Subject: GAS-L: MSW gasifier
Message-ID: <c5.20ad85d2.29da0ce9@aol.com>

I am confused. MSW means municipal solid waste (garbage) to me. But you
guys are talking like it is biosolids (sewer sludge).

Neal

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From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Mon Apr 1 10:00:50 2002
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:56 2004
Subject: GAS-L: MSW gasifier
In-Reply-To: <c5.20ad85d2.29da0ce9@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020401200014.GA25489@cybershamanix.com>

Oh duh! I guess maybe I'm confused. I thought MSW included sewage sludge, and in particular I was
interested in gasifiying the sewage sludge. However, as Jerry pointed out, that would include heavy
metals, probably dioxin and PCB's, since the water treatment system doesn't separate the sewage from
industry and residential, AFAIK.
So I guess I'll have to resubmit the question -- what about sewage sludge gasification, is anyone doing
that? And would there be problems with emissions?

On Mon, Apr 01, 2002 at 02:20:09PM -0500, CAVM@aol.com wrote:
> I am confused. MSW means municipal solid waste (garbage) to me. But you
> guys are talking like it is biosolids (sewer sludge).
>
> Neal
>
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From kchisholm at ca.inter.net Mon Apr 1 10:39:48 2002
From: kchisholm at ca.inter.net (Kevin Chisholm)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:56 2004
Subject: GAS-L: MSW gasifier
In-Reply-To: <c5.20ad85d2.29da0ce9@aol.com>
Message-ID: <007001c1d9bd$22d957c0$1919059a@kevin>

Dear Harmon

Sewage sludge can be biodigested anaerobically, to yield biogas, for direct
us in an IC engine, either Spark Ingition, or Diesel.

Kevin Chisholm
----- Original Message -----
From: "Harmon Seaver" <hseaver@cybershamanix.com>
To: <CAVM@aol.com>
Cc: <gasification@crest.org>
Sent: Monday, April 01, 2002 4:00 PM
Subject: Re: GAS-L: MSW gasifier

> Oh duh! I guess maybe I'm confused. I thought MSW included sewage
sludge, and in particular I was
> interested in gasifiying the sewage sludge. However, as Jerry pointed out,
that would include heavy
> metals, probably dioxin and PCB's, since the water treatment system
doesn't separate the sewage from
> industry and residential, AFAIK.
> So I guess I'll have to resubmit the question -- what about sewage
sludge gasification, is anyone doing
> that? And would there be problems with emissions?
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 01, 2002 at 02:20:09PM -0500, CAVM@aol.com wrote:
> > I am confused. MSW means municipal solid waste (garbage) to me. But
you
> > guys are talking like it is biosolids (sewer sludge).
> >
> > Neal
> >
> > -

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From jerry5335 at yahoo.com Mon Apr 1 10:45:02 2002
From: jerry5335 at yahoo.com (jerry dycus)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:56 2004
Subject: GAS-L: MSW gasifier
In-Reply-To: <20020401200014.GA25489@cybershamanix.com>
Message-ID: <20020401204459.10697.qmail@web21410.mail.yahoo.com>

Hi Harmon and All,
--- Harmon Seaver <hseaver@cybershamanix.com> wrote:
> Oh duh! I guess maybe I'm confused. I thought MSW
> included sewage sludge, and in particular I was
> interested in gasifiying the sewage sludge. However,
> as Jerry pointed out, that would include heavy
> metals, probably dioxin and PCB's, since the water
> treatment system doesn't separate the sewage from
> industry and residential, AFAIK.
> So I guess I'll have to resubmit the question --
> what about sewage sludge gasification, is anyone
> doing
> that? And would there be problems with emissions?
It was dried sewage sludge I was talking about and
the things I listed are emissions.
The best way is to digest it into methane and
burn that then landfill the rest. It's not something I
would want on a food farm field either.
jerry dycus

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From CAVM at aol.com Mon Apr 1 11:03:02 2002
From: CAVM at aol.com (CAVM@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:56 2004
Subject: GAS-L: MSW and Biosolids
Message-ID: <d5.15501f2a.29da24db@aol.com>

As far as I know, MSW is unsorted municipal garbage. It can be sent through a MRF, material recovery facility, at great expense to sort out recyclables and unsuitable materials. There is some talk of gasifing the sorted MSW after a MRF but not much of trying it with unsorted MSW. We have been talking to Phil Moss of Kentucky about an MSW gasifier he has had running for some time in Alaska. Phil can be reached at pamoss@kih.net

Biosolids (sewer sludge) can be digested as Kevin says. For my part, I would prefer to combust them and extract all of the energy value. For a district heating system using steam the biosolids could be a good fuel, depends on the combustion technology and the metal content of the biosolids. But this is a very doable project for any interested municipality. Same is true for feed lot, dairy and hog manure.

If the supply was steady and reliable generation of electrical power is a real option. 15 tons per hour supply at about 40% moisture mixed with about 2 tons per hour of sawdust and 8 - 10 MW is possible with about $800/kW capital cost. This comes to $.025/kw production cost plus cost of fuel.

Land application of biosolids is very controversial as Jerry says. Not at all a settled issue even when properly composted and tested for metals. I have been in composting for 18 years and know some of the issues. Marketing compost is a bear. It is an ill-defined product marketed to an uninformed consumer.

Neal Van Milligen
Kentucky Enrichment Inc.
CAVM@AOL.com

From arnt at c2i.net Mon Apr 1 11:15:44 2002
From: arnt at c2i.net (Arnt Karlsen)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:56 2004
Subject: GAS-L: MSW gasifier
In-Reply-To: <c5.20ad85d2.29da0ce9@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020401231743.68965653.arnt@c2i.net>

On Mon, 1 Apr 2002 14:00:14 -0600,
Harmon Seaver <hseaver@cybershamanix.com> wrote in message
<20020401200014.GA25489@cybershamanix.com>:

..my apologies, I have mailed Harmon and at least one more member
of the gas list readership, where I meant to post here.

> Oh duh! I guess maybe I'm confused. I thought MSW included sewage
> sludge, and in particular I was interested in gasifiying the sewage
> sludge. However, as Jerry pointed out, that would include heavy
> metals, probably dioxin and PCB's, since the water treatment system
> doesn't separate the sewage from industry and residential, AFAIK.
> So I guess I'll have to resubmit the question -- what about sewage
> sludge gasification, is anyone doing that? And would there be
> problems with emissions?
>

..engines runs fine on the gas produced, however I have no
data on emmissions, other than it appears the flare colors
looked the same. Murat? Your team collected data?

..from the gas list archives:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/gasification/199903/msg00055.html
Dead link referred to in above message moved to:
http://www.ivar.rl.no/IDybden/avlop/analyse.biopellets.cfm
To translate analysis text from Norwegian to English, try:
http://www.tranexp.com/InterTran.cgi

--
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;-)
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
Scenarios always come in sets of three:
best case, worst case, and just in case.

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From kchisholm at ca.inter.net Mon Apr 1 14:11:11 2002
From: kchisholm at ca.inter.net (Kevin Chisholm)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:56 2004
Subject: GAS-L: MSW and Biosolids
In-Reply-To: <d5.15501f2a.29da24db@aol.com>
Message-ID: <00d001c1d9da$a999a040$6119059a@kevin>

Dear Neal

OK.... what about "digesting the dirties", to produce biogas
for high grade energy production, i.e., electricity, and then use the waste heat
from the engine system, and the waste heat from residue incineration to serve
the district heating needs?

Kevin Chisholm
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
----- Original Message -----
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black">From:
CAVM@aol.com
To: <A title=gasification@crest.org
href="mailto:gasification@crest.org">gasification@crest.org
Sent: Monday, April 01, 2002 5:02
PM
Subject: GAS-L: MSW and Biosolids
As far as I know, MSW
is unsorted municipal garbage. It can be sent through a MRF, material
recovery facility, at great expense to sort out recyclables and unsuitable
materials. There is some talk of gasifing the sorted MSW after a MRF but
not much of trying it with unsorted MSW. We have been talking to Phil
Moss of Kentucky about an MSW gasifier he has had running for some time in
Alaska. Phil can be reached at <A
href="mailto:pamoss@kih.net">pamoss@kih.netBiosolids (sewer
sludge) can be digested as Kevin says. For my part, I would prefer to
combust them and extract all of the energy value. For a district heating
system using steam the biosolids could be a good fuel, depends on the
combustion technology and the metal content of the biosolids. But this
is a very doable project for any interested municipality. Same is true for
feed lot, dairy and hog manure.

From CAVM at aol.com Mon Apr 1 14:32:03 2002
From: CAVM at aol.com (CAVM@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:56 2004
Subject: GAS-L: MSW and Biosolids
Message-ID: <178.6148ffb.29da55d4@aol.com>

Kevin, First of all let me say that you probably know a lot more about this than I do.

Digestion is very appropriate in many situations, especially where the goals are well defined and meet the digestion potential. Usually I think of this with odor control issues, wet biomass, non-combustables, etc. For example, we usually advocate that dry biomass be combusted and wet biomass be digested.

However, in the case of biosolids, digestion may have already occurred in the municipal sewer plant so that wouldn't be much of an option. But in any case, disposal of the digested material would still be an issue. Thermophilic digestion has a good effect on pathogens but still biosolids are not very marketable from a public perception view point.

MSW is another story. The MRF is an expensive and inefficient way to isolate organics. It doesn't take much broken glass to render compost unusable for commercial purposes. The effluent from an MSW digester has no chance of being a fertilizer ingredient, sorted or not. MSW digestion might best take place in the landfill as landfill gas. There is a company in Colorado that manufactures a machine called a Ranger, I think. They advocate grinding the MSW as it is placed into the landfill to encourage more effective methane production from the landfill.

In small dairy and hog operations we recommend small, fixed film digesters. For larger operations and for sites with many farms near each other we encourage a cooperative built combustion unit such as the Bioten, for electricity and heat production.

A farmers market or food processing plant might be a great place for a digester on site to produce power from the food waste. Then the digested material is an organic fertilizer under the new USDA regs, as I understand them.

Regards,

Neal Van Milligen
Kentucky Enrichment Inc.
CAVM@AOL.com

From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Mon Apr 1 15:31:59 2002
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:56 2004
Subject: GAS-L: MSW and Biosolids
In-Reply-To: <d5.15501f2a.29da24db@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020402013117.GA25794@cybershamanix.com>

In my case, I'm not the municipality, I'm just interested in getting the dried biosolids that they are
hauling out to the farmers and paying them to take, and then gasfiying it to make electricity. I'm not
sure that it hasn't already been digested -- I know that they are flaring off methane all the time at the
treatment plant. At any rate, given that you have a totally dry product, at least in the instance that I
was told about, would it be very efficient to digest it (which would require adding water), then drying it
again to gasifiy or burn, or just gasifiying it in the first place. Not to mention a much greater capital
expense to build both digester and gasifier.
I definitely wouldn't want to have a lot of stuff left over to landfill -- at my cost, especially.

On Mon, Apr 01, 2002 at 08:08:17PM -0400, Kevin Chisholm wrote:
> Dear Neal
>
> OK.... what about "digesting the dirties", to produce biogas for high grade energy production, i.e., electricity, and then use the waste heat from the engine system, and the waste heat from residue incineration to serve the district heating needs?
>
> Kevin Chisholm
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: CAVM@aol.com
> To: gasification@crest.org
> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2002 5:02 PM
> Subject: GAS-L: MSW and Biosolids
>
>
> As far as I know, MSW is unsorted municipal garbage. It can be sent through a MRF, material recovery facility, at great expense to sort out recyclables and unsuitable materials. There is some talk of gasifing the sorted MSW after a MRF but not much of trying it with unsorted MSW. We have been talking to Phil Moss of Kentucky about an MSW gasifier he has had running for some time in Alaska. Phil can be reached at pamoss@kih.net
>
> Biosolids (sewer sludge) can be digested as Kevin says. For my part, I would prefer to combust them and extract all of the energy value. For a district heating system using steam the biosolids could be a good fuel, depends on the combustion technology and the metal content of the biosolids. But this is a very doable project for any interested municipality. Same is true for feed lot, dairy and hog manure.
>
>

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

-
Gasification List Archives:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/gasification/200202/

From parikh at me.iitb.ac.in Fri Apr 5 19:01:17 2002
From: parikh at me.iitb.ac.in (Prof P P Parikh)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:57 2004
Subject: GAS-L: ONLINE DATABASE - SARGOB
In-Reply-To: <sca19db0.060@city.toronto.on.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0204061029220.19936-100000@epsilon.me.iitb.ac.in>

Please go to the website and then SARGOB. MSW is a sub-keyword under the
keyword BIOMASS. All information is complied there.
Mrs Parikh

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Prof. (Mrs.) P.P.Parikh Phone Office : 5723496, 5767548
Dept. of Mechanical Engg. 5722545 Ext. 7548 / 8385
I.I.T. Bombay Home : 5704646
Mumbai 400 076 INDIA Fax Office : 5723496, 5723480

email : parikh@me.iitb.ac.in
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

On Wed, 27 Mar 2002, Michele Fournier wrote:

> Hello everyone,
>
> I am also interested in receiving information on gasification plants that are operating on MSW!!
>
> Thank you!
> Michele Fournier
>
> >>> "George Brigliadoro" <grb126@hotmail.com> 03/27/02 10:00am >>>
> Hello all,
>
> Does anyone know of an operating gasification plant using MSW as a
> feedstock? If so can you send me some information, I have an application and
> the possible financing for two 300 TPD plants.
>
> Thank you,
> George Brigliadoro
>
>
>
>

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Gasification List Archives:
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From cfields at mail.utexas.edu Tue Apr 16 10:47:15 2002
From: cfields at mail.utexas.edu (James Fields)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:57 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Transportation Cost and Storage
Message-ID: <002101c1e57f$73fbe5a0$e9a41942@z8o5f0>

I am examining the feasibility of constructing an
indirect fluidized bed gasifier and utilizing the gas for energy
production. I am looking for suggestions or rules of thumb
on estimating transportation costs of the wood feedstock. Also, what
are some common practices for storage of wood feedstock? The project is in
central Texas, we would like to take advantage of the sun to help dry the
feedstock.

Any help would be appreciated.

James Fields

From kchisholm at ca.inter.net Tue Apr 16 11:10:47 2002
From: kchisholm at ca.inter.net (Kevin Chisholm)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:57 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Transportation Cost and Storage
In-Reply-To: <002101c1e57f$73fbe5a0$e9a41942@z8o5f0>
Message-ID: <00cb01c1e582$84c385c0$de19059a@kevin>

Dear James

That is a very "site specific question." Depending on the
proposed scale of your operation, you would get far better information if you
could talk to local truckers and woods workers (for a smaller scale) or a local
trucking Association, if larger scale.

Costs will also vary, depending on whether you are hauling
tree length, 8' or chips.

Kindest regards,

Kevin Chisholm.
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
----- Original Message -----
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black">From:
James
Fields
To: <A title=gasification@crest.org
href="mailto:gasification@crest.org">gasification@crest.org
Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 4:46
PM
Subject: GAS-L: Transportation Cost and
Storage

I am examining the feasibility of constructing an
indirect fluidized bed gasifier and utilizing the gas for energy
production. I am looking for suggestions or rules of thumb
on estimating transportation costs of the wood feedstock. Also,
what are some common practices for storage of wood feedstock? The
project is in central Texas, we would like to take advantage of the sun to
help dry the feedstock.

Any help would be appreciated.

James
Fields

From motie at paulbunyan.net Tue Apr 16 13:57:22 2002
From: motie at paulbunyan.net (Motie)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:57 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Transportation Cost and Storage
In-Reply-To: <002101c1e57f$73fbe5a0$e9a41942@z8o5f0>
Message-ID: <009201c1e59a$209bf2e0$7ac4bfd1@m6o7s4>

James,
What form will your feedstock be in? Sawdust or
chips? Logs? This will make a considerable difference in handling costs, which
will directly impact transportation costs. Will trucks need to be
self-unloading, or can you unload them at your site?

Where will your wood come from? Logging jobs are
not always accessable when it rains, so you will need a reserve storage
capacity. Sawmill residues are usually accessable continually.

Storage is also pretty variable, depending on the
form. A pile of sawdust or chips, with the wrong moisture/oxygen content
WILL (not MIGHT)combust spontaneously.

Very rough Rule of Thumb is $1.50 mile, or for
shorter distances, $60/hour for Truck and Driver. Loading and unloading time
become much more critical with a short distance haul.

Economical transportation of feedstock resources is
my area of expertise.

I can give some more free advice to help you get
started, if you're interested, and if the project seems to be a "GO", I'm
available on a professional basis.

Motie

----- Original Message -----
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black">From:
James
Fields
To: <A title=gasification@crest.org
href="mailto:gasification@crest.org">gasification@crest.org
Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 2:46
PM
Subject: GAS-L: Transportation Cost and
Storage

I am examining the feasibility of constructing an
indirect fluidized bed gasifier and utilizing the gas for energy
production. I am looking for suggestions or rules of thumb
on estimating transportation costs of the wood feedstock. Also,
what are some common practices for storage of wood feedstock? The
project is in central Texas, we would like to take advantage of the sun to
help dry the feedstock.

Any help would be appreciated.

James
Fields

From motie at paulbunyan.net Wed Apr 17 10:30:33 2002
From: motie at paulbunyan.net (Motie)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:57 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Transportation Cost and Storage
In-Reply-To: <002101c1e57f$73fbe5a0$e9a41942@z8o5f0>
Message-ID: <001c01c1e646$658b1f00$2cc5bfd1@m6o7s4>

Subject: Re: GAS-L: Transportation Cost and Storage
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">

Our feedstock is chipped and piled at a
landfill. We would like to transport the chips 15 miles to a power plant
where we will integrate a gasifier. The majority of the chips may remain
at the landfill, but we would like to store a weeks worth supply of feedstock
at the power plant. I realize that putting the feedstock in a silo or
closed building would be disastrous. The main question is how to store
the weeks supply, 1000 tons, at the plant...just pile them, three walled
building?

Any help is appreciated

James Fields
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

James,
A silo would not necessarily be disastrous,
though it could have that potential. Moisture and oxygen content is the
critical factor.
A 3 sided building may be the most economically
feasable way to store it, but it does increase the handling costs, unless you
put in a feed system right from the storage building. You will want to keep
rain off of it. Rain water is highly oxygenated.
The secret will be to continually rotate the
feedstock, so it doesn't have time to build up heat, although if it's already
in a pile at the landfill, it may have finished it's initial heating.
Fresh chips are more susceptable to heating.
The heat is caused by bacterial action in the
presence of oxygen, with enough moisture present to keep the 'bugs' happy.

<A
href="http://keithwalkingfloor.com/page3.html">http://keithwalkingfloor.com/page3.html
A walking floor may be of interest to you. These
can be retrofitted into a van trailer to make it a self-unloader, and dump
inside your building without 30 foot ceilings. No need to dump in the yard,
then carry it with a frontend loader to the storage building.
They can also be used to feed the stock out
of your storage bin or bunker into a conveyor on the backside.

An informal recomendation would be to equip your
trucks with a Keith walking Floor in a 45 foot van trailer. These should be
able to haul 25 ton loads. 100 cubic yards. You'll need 40 loads of storage
space, or 4000 cubic yards.
15 feet high(5 yards) would require 800 yards of
floor space. An 80x100 building should work. Large vents in the peak ot the
roof and under the eaves will remove a lot of moisture for you.

A round storage bunker or silo would also be
usable, but you won't get the surface area exposure for natural
drying.
A 40 foot round structure would need to be piled
20 feet deep to store your reserve supply.

<A
href="http://www.laidig.com/brochure-98s.htm">http://www.laidig.com/brochure-98s.htm
If you decide to go with a silo, you'll need to
unload it.

LOL I don't get any commission from either of
these companies.

Have you done any planning on the loading of the
trucks at the landfill?

This should give you a few things to
consider.
Let me know if I'm on the right track with your
needs.

Motie
Maybe it's a personal quirk, but can you CC to
the Gas list? As long as I am making a donation of my time, I would like it to
benefit anyone else who may be having problems too.
You may also get additional replies from someone
who has an entirely different perspective from
mine.

From Gavin at roseplac.worldonline.co.uk Wed Apr 17 12:19:36 2002
From: Gavin at roseplac.worldonline.co.uk (Gavin Gulliver-Goodall)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:57 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Transportation Cost and Storage
In-Reply-To: <001c01c1e646$658b1f00$2cc5bfd1@m6o7s4>
Message-ID: <MABBJLGAAFJBOBCKKPMGMEBACFAA.Gavin@roseplac.worldonline.co.uk>

There is a
specialist firm based in Sweden with a base in Orlando who can provide turnkey
packages or individual components to help with the whole chip handling and
storage solutions. Including chip drying.

As you
know chips will decompose quite rapidly if stored in a pile when wet. This decomposition
not only reduces calorific value but also introduce moulds and spores which may
become a hazard for the people handling the chips and in the dust emissions of
any subsequent process.

Try <a
href="http://www.bruks.com/">www.bruks.com

I do
consultancy for them on their continuous bed dryer system which I believe to be
the most cost effective method of drying chips for a thermal process.

Good luck
with your project

PS Keith
walking floors are good but you can also use Scraper floor systems. Or large
auger-filled receiving bays

Gavin

Gavin Gulliver-Goodall

3G
Energi,

Tel +44 (0)1835
824201

Fax +44 (0)870
8314098

Mob +44 (0)7773
781498

E mail
Gavin@3genergi.co.uk <mailto:Gavin@3genergi.co.uk>

-----Original
Message-----
From: Motie
[mailto:motie@paulbunyan.net]
Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002
20:31
To: James Fields
Cc: gasification@crest.org
Subject: Re: GAS-L: Transportation
Cost and Storage

Subject:
Re: GAS-L: Transportation Cost and Storage

Our
feedstock is chipped and piled at a landfill. We would like to transport
the chips 15 miles to a power plant where we will integrate a gasifier. The
majority of the chips may remain at the landfill, but we would like to store a
weeks worth supply of feedstock at the power plant. I realize that
putting the feedstock in a silo or closed building would be disastrous.
The main question is how to store the weeks supply, 1000 tons, at the
plant...just pile them, three walled building?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

A
walking floor may be of interest to you. These can be retrofitted into a van
trailer to make it a self-unloader, and dump inside your building without 30
foot ceilings. No need to dump in the yard, then carry it with a frontend
loader to the storage building.

<a
href="http://www.laidig.com/brochure-98s.htm">http://www.laidig.com/brochure-98s.htm

From sigma at ix.netcom.com Wed Apr 17 13:59:03 2002
From: sigma at ix.netcom.com (sigma)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:57 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Transportation Cost and Storage
In-Reply-To: <MABBJLGAAFJBOBCKKPMGMEBACFAA.Gavin@roseplac.worldonline.co.uk>
Message-ID: <00e101c1e663$5b484be0$f7dbf7a5@ix.netcom.com>

I will say a few words in support of live-floor
trailers ( Keith is just one manufacturer, and used, live floor, trailers
are readily available on the used trailer market ) --- Why buy new for storage?
-- not to my points: 1) flexibility -- mobile storage in 20 -25 ton lots.
One can have a yard full of trailers providing required inventory, or keep them
on the road hauling --delivering on a "just-in-time" basis. 2) Fire safety
-- park them apart and any fire is confined to just one. Rotate the
inventory to further reduce the danger. Small lots reduce the possibility
of spontaneous combustion. The insurance company will like this
too.

Good luck!

Let us know what you decide.

Len


Len Walde,
P.E.
Sigma Energy Engineering,
Inc
Recycling Problems into
Opportunities
for Agriculture, Industry and
Commerce
through "Symbiotic Recycling" tm

Contact:

140 Spring Road, Orinda,
CA
94563-3311
Ph:
925-254-7633
Fax: 925-253-9108 (Nite is
best)
E-mail: sigma@ix.netcom.com

----- Original Message -----
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black">From:
<A title=Gavin@roseplac.worldonline.co.uk
href="mailto:Gavin@roseplac.worldonline.co.uk">Gavin Gulliver-Goodall

To: <A title=motie@paulbunyan.net
href="mailto:motie@paulbunyan.net">Motie ; <A
title=cfields@mail.utexas.edu href="mailto:cfields@mail.utexas.edu">James
Fields
Cc: <A title=gasification@crest.org
href="mailto:gasification@crest.org">gasification@crest.org
Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002 2:14
PM
Subject: RE: GAS-L: Transportation Cost
and Storage

There
is a specialist firm based in Sweden with a base in Orlando who can provide
turnkey packages or individual components to help with the whole chip handling
and storage solutions. Including chip
drying.
As you
know chips will decompose quite rapidly if stored in a pile when wet. This
decomposition not only reduces calorific value but also introduce moulds and
spores which may become a hazard for the people handling the chips and in the
dust emissions of any subsequent process.

Try <A
href="http://www.bruks.com">www.bruks.com

I do
consultancy for them on their continuous bed dryer system which I believe to
be the most cost effective method of drying chips for a thermal
process.

Good
luck with your project

PS
Keith walking floors are good but you can also use Scraper floor systems. Or
large auger-filled receiving bays

Gavin


Gavin
Gulliver-Goodall
3G
Energi,
 
Tel +44
(0)1835 824201
Fax +44
(0)870 8314098
Mob +44
(0)7773 781498
E mail
Gavin@3genergi.co.uk <mailto:Gavin@3genergi.co.uk> 
 

-----Original
Message-----From: Motie
[mailto:motie@paulbunyan.net]Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002
20:31To: James
FieldsCc:
gasification@crest.orgSubject: Re: GAS-L: Transportation Cost
and Storage

Subject: Re: GAS-L: Transportation Cost and
Storage
<DIV
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 3pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; BORDER-LEFT: black 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN-LEFT: 39.2pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0cm 0cm 0cm 3.0pt"> 
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN-LEFT: 39.2pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0cm 0cm 0cm 3.0pt">Our feedstock is
chipped and piled at a landfill. We would like to transport the chips 15
miles to a power plant where we will integrate a gasifier. The majority
of the chips may remain at the landfill, but we would like to store a weeks
worth supply of feedstock at the power plant. I realize that putting the
feedstock in a silo or closed building would be disastrous. The main
question is how to store the weeks supply, 1000 tons, at the plant...just pile
them, three walled building?
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN-LEFT: 39.2pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0cm 0cm 0cm 3.0pt"> 
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN-LEFT: 39.2pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0cm 0cm 0cm 3.0pt">Any help is
appreciated
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN-LEFT: 39.2pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0cm 0cm 0cm 3.0pt"> 
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN-LEFT: 39.2pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0cm 0cm 0cm 3.0pt">James
Fields
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN-LEFT: 39.2pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0cm 0cm 0cm 3.0pt">>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN-LEFT: 39.2pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0cm 0cm 0cm 3.0pt"> 
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN-LEFT: 39.2pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0cm 0cm 0cm 3.0pt">James,
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN-LEFT: 39.2pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0cm 0cm 0cm 3.0pt">A silo would not
necessarily be disastrous, though it could have that potential. Moisture and
oxygen content is the critical factor. 
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN-LEFT: 39.2pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0cm 0cm 0cm 3.0pt">A 3 sided building
may be the most economically feasable way to store it, but it does increase
the handling costs, unless you put in a feed system right from the storage
building. You will want to keep rain off of it. Rain water is highly
oxygenated.
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN-LEFT: 39.2pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0cm 0cm 0cm 3.0pt">The secret will be
to continually rotate the feedstock, so it doesn't have time to build up heat,
although if it's already in a pile at the landfill, it may have
finished it's initial heating. Fresh chips are more susceptable to
heating.
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN-LEFT: 39.2pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0cm 0cm 0cm 3.0pt">The heat is caused
by bacterial action in the presence of oxygen, with enough moisture present to
keep the 'bugs' happy. 
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN-LEFT: 39.2pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0cm 0cm 0cm 3.0pt"> 
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN-LEFT: 39.2pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0cm 0cm 0cm 3.0pt"> 
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN-LEFT: 39.2pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0cm 0cm 0cm 3.0pt"><A
href="http://keithwalkingfloor.com/page3.html">http://keithwalkingfloor.com/page3.html
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN-LEFT: 39.2pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0cm 0cm 0cm 3.0pt">A walking floor may
be of interest to you. These can be retrofitted into a van trailer to make it
a self-unloader, and dump inside your building without 30 foot ceilings. No
need to dump in the yard, then carry it with a frontend loader to the storage
building.
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN-LEFT: 39.2pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0cm 0cm 0cm 3.0pt"> They can also
be used to feed the stock out of your storage bin or bunker into a conveyor on
the backside.
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN-LEFT: 39.2pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0cm 0cm 0cm 3.0pt"> 
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN-LEFT: 39.2pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0cm 0cm 0cm 3.0pt"> 
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN-LEFT: 39.2pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0cm 0cm 0cm 3.0pt">An informal
recomendation would be to equip your trucks with a Keith walking Floor in a 45
foot van trailer. These should be able to haul 25 ton loads. 100 cubic yards.
You'll need 40 loads of storage space, or 4000 cubic yards.
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN-LEFT: 39.2pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0cm 0cm 0cm 3.0pt">15 feet high(5
yards) would require 800 yards of floor space. An 80x100 building should work.
Large vents in the peak ot the roof and under the eaves will remove a lot of
moisture for you.
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN-LEFT: 39.2pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0cm 0cm 0cm 3.0pt"> 
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN-LEFT: 39.2pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0cm 0cm 0cm 3.0pt">A round storage
bunker or silo would also be usable, but you won't get the surface area
exposure for natural drying.
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN-LEFT: 39.2pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0cm 0cm 0cm 3.0pt">A 40 foot round
structure would need to be piled 20 feet deep to store your reserve
supply.
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN-LEFT: 39.2pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0cm 0cm 0cm 3.0pt"> 
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN-LEFT: 39.2pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0cm 0cm 0cm 3.0pt"><A
href="http://www.laidig.com/brochure-98s.htm">http://www.laidig.com/brochure-98s.htm
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN-LEFT: 39.2pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0cm 0cm 0cm 3.0pt">If you decide to go
with a silo, you'll need to unload it.
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN-LEFT: 39.2pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0cm 0cm 0cm 3.0pt"> 
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN-LEFT: 39.2pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0cm 0cm 0cm 3.0pt">LOL I don't get any
commission from either of these companies.
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN-LEFT: 39.2pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0cm 0cm 0cm 3.0pt"> 
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN-LEFT: 39.2pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0cm 0cm 0cm 3.0pt">Have you done any
planning on the loading of the trucks at the landfill?
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN-LEFT: 39.2pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0cm 0cm 0cm 3.0pt"> 
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN-LEFT: 39.2pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0cm 0cm 0cm 3.0pt">This should give you
a few things to consider.
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN-LEFT: 39.2pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0cm 0cm 0cm 3.0pt">Let me know if I'm
on the right track with your needs.
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN-LEFT: 39.2pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0cm 0cm 0cm 3.0pt"> 
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN-LEFT: 39.2pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0cm 0cm 0cm 3.0pt">Motie
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN-LEFT: 39.2pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0cm 0cm 0cm 3.0pt">Maybe it's a
personal quirk, but can you CC to the Gas list? As long as I am making a
donation of my time, I would like it to benefit anyone else who may be having
problems too.
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN-LEFT: 39.2pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0cm 0cm 0cm 3.0pt">You may also get
additional replies from someone who has an entirely different perspective from
mine.

From kssustain at provide.net Sat Apr 20 04:03:47 2002
From: kssustain at provide.net (Kermit Schlansker)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:57 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Fw: [energyresources] Biomass Energy Potential Calculator
Message-ID: <002a01c1e863$8fad7340$c05a56d8@default>

I opened
this, printed it out, and found no virus. The attachment contains good info
about biomass energy, US geography, and should be useful to thinkers. Like the
author, I am doubtful that we could ever get 40% of present energy from biomass.
However with large plantings we could get more than 10% and that could be
crucial to the survival of our children. With diverse and fruit crops, nature
would be reinforced. Biomass stores carbon, makes food, makes liquid
fuels, and makes energy when the sun doesn't shine and the wind doesn't
blow.

Kermit Schlansker
-----Original Message-----From: K
Davies <kdavies@igc.org>To:
ER <<A
href="mailto:energyresources@yahoogroups.com">energyresources@yahoogroups.com>Date:
Saturday, April 20, 2002 7:10 AMSubject: [energyresources]
Biomass Energy Potential CalculatorLet's see if this HTM
version of the spreadsheet attaches OK--
KD42n20,72w39Your message didn't show up on the list?
Complaints or compliments?Drop me (Tom Robertson) a note at <A
href="mailto:t1r@bellatlantic.net">t1r@bellatlantic.net Your use of
Yahoo! Groups is subject to <A
href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

<table x:str border=0 cellpadding=0 cellspacing=0 width=784 style='border-collapse:
collapse;table-layout:fixed;width:588pt'>

<col width=84 span=2 style='mso-width-source:userset;mso-width-alt:2986;
width:63pt'>

<td height=23 class=xl2427319 colspan=5 width=359 style='height:17.4pt;
width:269pt'>Biomass Energy Potential Calculator:
USA

Fantasy
No Meat*

Percent of
Percent of

Category
Percent
Sq Km
Hectares
DryT/Ha/Yr
DryT/Yr
MMBtu/DryT
QuadBtu/Yr
Current Use
Current Use

Arable
19%
1,740,202
174,020,240
8
1,392,161,920
14
19
20%
14%

Pasture
25%
2,289,740
228,974,000
4
915,896,000
14
13
13%
13%

Forest
30%
2,747,688
274,768,800
2
549,537,600
14
8
8%
0%

Other
26%
2,381,330
238,132,960
0
0
14
0
0%
0%

Total
100%
9,158,960
915,896,000

2,857,595,520

40
40%
27%

References:

<td height=18 class=xl2727319 colspan=4 style='height:13.2pt'
x:str="United States of America - Energy ">United States of America - Energy

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/usa.html

<td height=18 class=xl1527319 colspan=4 style='height:13.2pt'
x:str="Total Energy Consumption (2000E): ">Total Energy Consumption (2000E):

98.8
quadrillion Btu (25% of world total energy
consumption)

Current Shares
of U.S. Energy Consumption

http://starfire.ne.uiuc.edu/ne201/course/topics/resource_usage/current_shares.html

1994 U.S.
Energy Use By Source

Source
Consumption in Quads

Oil
31.00
35%

Natural Gas
24.00
27%

Coal
20.00
23%

Nuclear
7.00
<td class=xl4927319 align=right x:num="7.909604519774012E-2"
x:fmla="=B25/B$32">8%

Hydroelectric
2.50
<td class=xl4927319 align=right x:num="2.8248587570621469E-2"
x:fmla="=B26/B$32">3%

Wood Waste
1.50
<td class=xl4927319 align=right x:num="1.6949152542372881E-2"
x:fmla="=B27/B$32">2%

Biofuels
1.30
<td class=xl4927319 align=right x:num="1.4689265536723164E-2"
x:fmla="=B28/B$32">1%

Geothermal
0.20
<td class=xl4927319 align=right x:num="2.2598870056497176E-3"
x:fmla="=B29/B$32">0%

Solar
0.07
<td class=xl4927319 align=right x:num="7.909604519774012E-4"
x:fmla="=B30/B$32">0%

Wind
0.04
<td class=xl5127319 align=right x:num="4.519774011299435E-4"
x:fmla="=B31/B$32">0%

Total
88.50
100%

United States -
Geography

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/us.html

Area:

total: 9,629,091 sq km

land: 9,158,960 sq km

<td height=18 class=xl1527319 colspan=3 style='height:13.2pt'
x:str="water: 470,131 sq km ">water:
470,131 sq km

Land
use:

arable
land: 19%

permanent
crops: 0%

permanent
pastures: 25%

forests and
woodland: 30%

other: 26% (1993 est.)

[1 sq km = 100
hectares]

Popular
Poplars: Trees for many purposes

http://bioenergy.ornl.gov/misc/poplars.html

Hybrid
poplars, when grown under short-rotation silviculture, can produce between 4
and 10 dry tons of wood per acre per year

(8-22 metric
tonnes per hectare per year)...This compares to yields of less than 1
ton/ac/yr for native forests and 2.5 ton/ac/yr

for managed
pine plantations.

Bioenergy
Conversion Factors

http://bioenergy.ornl.gov/papers/misc/energy_conv.html

1.0 metric
tonne (tonne) = 1000 kilograms = 2205 pounds

Energy content
of wood fuel (air dry, 20% moisture) = about...6,400 Btu/lb

Realities For
The 90s

Environmental
and Nutritional Facts drawn from Diet for a New America by John Robbins and
other sources

http://home.earthlink.net/~tilleyrw/realities_90s.html

<td height=18 class=xl3827319 colspan=6 style='height:13.2pt'
x:str="Amount of soy grown in United States consumed by livestock: 90% (2) ">Amount
of soy grown in United States consumed by livestock: 90% (2)

Amount of corn
grow in United States consumed by livestock: 80% (3)

<a
href="http://home.earthlink.net/%7Etilleyrw/realities_90s_references.html#5">Amount of total U.S. grain production consumed by
livestock: 70% (5)

* "No
Meat" scenario assumes 70% of crop land can be converted from production
for livestock to biomass production,

all pasture
land can be converted to biomass production, and all forest land stays in
forestry (timber/wood/pulp)

production. This is probably a fantasy too. But it still might be a good idea to buy
soy burger stock while it's cheap.

-
Gasification List Archives:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/gasification/200202/

From myildiz2002 at yahoo.com Sat Apr 20 05:39:04 2002
From: myildiz2002 at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-9?Q?Meltem_Y=FDld=FDz?=)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:57 2004
Subject: GAS-L: CH4
Message-ID: <004701c1e878$e91a0280$cd79afc3@j5m1i2>

Dear List,
I need to know the reaction temperature of C+2H2
=CH4 mechanism.
I tried to find at web sites, but I couldnt be able
to find it.
Thanks for ur help
With my best regards.
Meltem

From tmiles at trmiles.com Sat Apr 20 11:36:55 2002
From: tmiles at trmiles.com (Tom Miles)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:57 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Transportation Cost and Storage
In-Reply-To: <MABBJLGAAFJBOBCKKPMGMEBACFAA.Gavin@roseplac.worldonline.co.uk>
Message-ID: <013b01c1e8aa$f889cf70$0501a8c0@tomslaptop>

Historical note and comment:

There are a number of good suggestions in these
messages.

There are a variety of moving floors. The design
Keith generally sells is made under licence from Hallco Manufacuting, Tillamook,
Oregon. In the 1960s, a dairy farmer names Ole Hallstrom walked into our
office with a great idea. We helped him design an industrial product.
Hallco was formed. And they since have designed a variety of moving floors for
different materials and situations. Last year we launched yet another concept in
modular materials handling in and out of trucks with Hallco. Keith has also developed a variety of moving floor products
that they manufacture.

Moving floors are versatile for small operations. I
would cauution, however, that they may not suit most larger operations,
where travelling screws and other devices are more appropriate. For
1000 tons you're really better of looking at permanent storage onsite with an
automatic reclaim/retrieval system.

Regards,

Tom
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
----- Original Message -----
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black">From:
sigma

To: <A
title=Gavin@roseplac.worldonline.co.uk
href="mailto:Gavin@roseplac.worldonline.co.uk">Gavin Gulliver-Goodall ; <A
title=motie@paulbunyan.net href="mailto:motie@paulbunyan.net">Motie ; <A
title=cfields@mail.utexas.edu href="mailto:cfields@mail.utexas.edu">James
Fields
Cc: <A title=gasification@crest.org
href="mailto:gasification@crest.org">gasification@crest.org
Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002 3:58
PM
Subject: Re: GAS-L: Transportation Cost
and Storage

I will say a few words in support of
live-floor trailers ( Keith is just one manufacturer, and used, live floor,
trailers are readily available on the used trailer market ) --- Why buy
new for storage? -- not to my points: 1) flexibility -- mobile storage in
20 -25 ton lots. One can have a yard full of trailers providing required
inventory, or keep them on the road hauling --delivering on a "just-in-time"
basis. 2) Fire safety -- park them apart and any fire is confined to
just one. Rotate the inventory to further reduce the danger. Small
lots reduce the possibility of spontaneous combustion. The insurance company
will like this too.

Good luck!

Let us know what you
decide.

Len


Len Walde,
P.E.
Sigma Energy Engineering,
Inc
Recycling Problems into
Opportunities
for Agriculture, Industry and
Commerce
through "Symbiotic Recycling" tm

Contact:

140 Spring Road, Orinda,
CA
94563-3311
Ph:
925-254-7633
Fax: 925-253-9108 (Nite is
best)
E-mail: sigma@ix.netcom.com

----- Original Message -----
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black">From:
<A title=Gavin@roseplac.worldonline.co.uk
href="mailto:Gavin@roseplac.worldonline.co.uk">Gavin Gulliver-Goodall

To: <A title=motie@paulbunyan.net
href="mailto:motie@paulbunyan.net">Motie ; <A
title=cfields@mail.utexas.edu href="mailto:cfields@mail.utexas.edu">James
Fields
Cc: <A title=gasification@crest.org
href="mailto:gasification@crest.org">gasification@crest.org
Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002 2:14
PM
Subject: RE: GAS-L: Transportation Cost
and Storage

There
is a specialist firm based in Sweden with a base in Orlando who can provide
turnkey packages or individual components to help with the whole chip
handling and storage solutions. Including chip
drying.
As
you know chips will decompose quite rapidly if stored in a pile when wet.
This decomposition not only reduces calorific value but also introduce
moulds and spores which may become a hazard for the people handling the
chips and in the dust emissions of any subsequent
process.

Try
<A
href="http://www.bruks.com">www.bruks.com

I do
consultancy for them on their continuous bed dryer system which I believe to
be the most cost effective method of drying chips for a thermal
process.

Good
luck with your project

PS
Keith walking floors are good but you can also use Scraper floor systems. Or
large auger-filled receiving bays

Gavin


Gavin
Gulliver-Goodall
3G
Energi,
 
Tel +44
(0)1835 824201
Fax +44
(0)870 8314098
Mob +44
(0)7773 781498
E mail
Gavin@3genergi.co.uk <mailto:Gavin@3genergi.co.uk> 
 

-----Original
Message-----From: Motie
[mailto:motie@paulbunyan.net]Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002
20:31To: James
FieldsCc:
gasification@crest.orgSubject: Re: GAS-L: Transportation Cost
and Storage

Subject: Re: GAS-L: Transportation Cost and
Storage
<DIV
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 3pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; BORDER-LEFT: black 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN-LEFT: 39.2pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0cm 0cm 0cm 3.0pt"> 
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN-LEFT: 39.2pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0cm 0cm 0cm 3.0pt">Our feedstock is
chipped and piled at a landfill. We would like to transport the chips
15 miles to a power plant where we will integrate a gasifier. The
majority of the chips may remain at the landfill, but we would like to store
a weeks worth supply of feedstock at the power plant. I realize that
putting the feedstock in a silo or closed building would be
disastrous. The main question is how to store the weeks supply, 1000
tons, at the plant...just pile them, three walled
building?
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN-LEFT: 39.2pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0cm 0cm 0cm 3.0pt"> 
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN-LEFT: 39.2pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0cm 0cm 0cm 3.0pt">Any help is
appreciated
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN-LEFT: 39.2pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0cm 0cm 0cm 3.0pt"> 
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN-LEFT: 39.2pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0cm 0cm 0cm 3.0pt">James
Fields
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN-LEFT: 39.2pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0cm 0cm 0cm 3.0pt">>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN-LEFT: 39.2pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0cm 0cm 0cm 3.0pt"> 
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN-LEFT: 39.2pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0cm 0cm 0cm 3.0pt">James,
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN-LEFT: 39.2pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0cm 0cm 0cm 3.0pt">A silo would not
necessarily be disastrous, though it could have that potential. Moisture and
oxygen content is the critical factor. 
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN-LEFT: 39.2pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0cm 0cm 0cm 3.0pt">A 3 sided building
may be the most economically feasable way to store it, but it does increase
the handling costs, unless you put in a feed system right from the storage
building. You will want to keep rain off of it. Rain water is highly
oxygenated.
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN-LEFT: 39.2pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0cm 0cm 0cm 3.0pt">The secret will be
to continually rotate the feedstock, so it doesn't have time to build up
heat, although if it's already in a pile at the landfill, it may have
finished it's initial heating. Fresh chips are more susceptable to
heating.
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN-LEFT: 39.2pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0cm 0cm 0cm 3.0pt">The heat is caused
by bacterial action in the presence of oxygen, with enough moisture present
to keep the 'bugs' happy. 
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN-LEFT: 39.2pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0cm 0cm 0cm 3.0pt"> 
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN-LEFT: 39.2pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0cm 0cm 0cm 3.0pt"> 
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN-LEFT: 39.2pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0cm 0cm 0cm 3.0pt"><A
href="http://keithwalkingfloor.com/page3.html">http://keithwalkingfloor.com/page3.html
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN-LEFT: 39.2pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0cm 0cm 0cm 3.0pt">A walking floor
may be of interest to you. These can be retrofitted into a van trailer to
make it a self-unloader, and dump inside your building without 30 foot
ceilings. No need to dump in the yard, then carry it with a frontend loader
to the storage building.
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN-LEFT: 39.2pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0cm 0cm 0cm 3.0pt"> They can
also be used to feed the stock out of your storage bin or bunker into a
conveyor on the backside.
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN-LEFT: 39.2pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0cm 0cm 0cm 3.0pt"> 
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN-LEFT: 39.2pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0cm 0cm 0cm 3.0pt"> 
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN-LEFT: 39.2pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0cm 0cm 0cm 3.0pt">An informal
recomendation would be to equip your trucks with a Keith walking Floor in a
45 foot van trailer. These should be able to haul 25 ton loads. 100 cubic
yards. You'll need 40 loads of storage space, or 4000 cubic
yards.
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN-LEFT: 39.2pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0cm 0cm 0cm 3.0pt">15 feet high(5
yards) would require 800 yards of floor space. An 80x100 building should
work. Large vents in the peak ot the roof and under the eaves will remove a
lot of moisture for you.
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN-LEFT: 39.2pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0cm 0cm 0cm 3.0pt"> 
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN-LEFT: 39.2pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0cm 0cm 0cm 3.0pt">A round storage
bunker or silo would also be usable, but you won't get the surface area
exposure for natural drying.
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN-LEFT: 39.2pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0cm 0cm 0cm 3.0pt">A 40 foot round
structure would need to be piled 20 feet deep to store your reserve
supply.
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN-LEFT: 39.2pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0cm 0cm 0cm 3.0pt"> 
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN-LEFT: 39.2pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0cm 0cm 0cm 3.0pt"><A
href="http://www.laidig.com/brochure-98s.htm">http://www.laidig.com/brochure-98s.htm
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN-LEFT: 39.2pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0cm 0cm 0cm 3.0pt">If you decide to
go with a silo, you'll need to unload it.
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN-LEFT: 39.2pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0cm 0cm 0cm 3.0pt"> 
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN-LEFT: 39.2pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0cm 0cm 0cm 3.0pt">LOL I don't get
any commission from either of these companies.
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN-LEFT: 39.2pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0cm 0cm 0cm 3.0pt"> 
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN-LEFT: 39.2pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0cm 0cm 0cm 3.0pt">Have you done any
planning on the loading of the trucks at the landfill?
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN-LEFT: 39.2pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0cm 0cm 0cm 3.0pt"> 
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN-LEFT: 39.2pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0cm 0cm 0cm 3.0pt">This should give
you a few things to consider.
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN-LEFT: 39.2pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0cm 0cm 0cm 3.0pt">Let me know if I'm
on the right track with your needs.
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN-LEFT: 39.2pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0cm 0cm 0cm 3.0pt"> 
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN-LEFT: 39.2pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0cm 0cm 0cm 3.0pt">Motie
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN-LEFT: 39.2pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0cm 0cm 0cm 3.0pt">Maybe it's a
personal quirk, but can you CC to the Gas list? As long as I am making a
donation of my time, I would like it to benefit anyone else who may be
having problems too.
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN-LEFT: 39.2pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0cm 0cm 0cm 3.0pt">You may also get
additional replies from someone who has an entirely different perspective
from mine.

From d.rl at virgin.net Sun Apr 21 03:33:36 2002
From: d.rl at virgin.net (David Reynolds-Lacey)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:57 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Transportation Cost and Storage
In-Reply-To: <002101c1e57f$73fbe5a0$e9a41942@z8o5f0>
Message-ID: <3CC2B158.73C9E2B5@virgin.net>

James and fellow list members,
I have been a Lurker on this list for many months and this is my first
post and I take this opportunity of saying hello to all. Rather than repeating
myself here, I have recently made my first post to the "Stoves" list under
the subject "another lurker pops up" and you can get some insight to my
activities by referring to that post.

James Fields wrote:
"I am examining the feasibility of
constructing an indirect fluidized bed gasifier and utilizing the gas for
energy production. I am looking for suggestions or rules of thumb
on estimating transportation costs of the wood feedstock"
I am presently in the process
of setting up a woodchip to power operation but on a much smaller scale,
I am setting up the entire operation at the site where we grow and harvest
the fuel from coppiced woodland. You haven't said just what the wood chip
is coming from but if it is wet I presume it is tree debris rather than
scrap lumber (which could be rain soaked/waterlogged in any event), either
way, do you really want to pay to transport hundreds of tons of water 15
miles across Texas? If you can't set up the plant at the site of the fuel
source, which is by far the method of choice, then the next best thing
is to leave what you don't want at that site and what you definitely don't
want is water! - water will be your biggest problem throughout the entire
operation it gives you transportation problems (every 20 ton load can include
around 8 tons of water), storage problems (fungus and spores etc) and a
greater chance of spontaneous combustion problems and final combustion
problems by, amongst other things, diluting the gas. Tom Reed made a very
valid comment in his reply to my post on "stoves" he said (quote) " We
don't burn wet gasoline, so why should we think we can burn wet wood?"
However the combustion problem can be overcome by employing the combustion
method that I use, but I haven't got to worry about transportation costs,
if I did then I would certainly dry before transporting.
Sun drying woodchip is slow and
not easy, which is why woodchip makes such a good horticultural mulch,
the mechanical handing requirements for constant turning of the chip during
sun/free air drying may be economically prohibitive, especially with the
quantity you are consuming and the time scale allowed. I would suggest
that you set up a drying operation at the landfill site using a recirculating
steam drying process, moving the wood chip through in a thin layer on a
conveyor or even by bulk drying it before chipping, it will pay for itself
in no time and can of course be fired by woodchip or, if available, methane
from the land fill. This method will also provide "waste" heat which can
be reused on the site, you may even be able to sell it back to the landfill
site for heating etc. By using this method you can transport ONLY the dry
fuel using bulk containers which will give you at least 35/40 percent more
combustible fuel capacity per trip. Storage problems on the power site
can also be overcome by using a "just in time" method and holding only
a few days supply.
I hope this will be of help.

David Reynolds-Lacey

From cfields at mail.utexas.edu Sun Apr 21 08:16:18 2002
From: cfields at mail.utexas.edu (James Fields)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:57 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Transportation Cost and Storage
In-Reply-To: <002101c1e57f$73fbe5a0$e9a41942@z8o5f0>
Message-ID: <000b01c1e958$32084080$e9a41942@z8o5f0>

Thanks for the suggestion. We hadn't thought
of drying the wood before transporting it, but it is the most sensible thing to
do. There is an abundance of landfill gas available to us currently being
flared.

Cody Fields

----- Original Message -----
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black">From:
David
Reynolds-Lacey
To: <A title=gasification@crest.org
href="mailto:gasification@crest.org">gasification@crest.org
Sent: Sunday, April 21, 2002 7:32
AM
Subject: Re: GAS-L: Transportation Cost
and Storage
James and fellow list members,
I have been a Lurker on this list for many months and this is my first post
and I take this opportunity of saying hello to all. Rather than repeating
myself here, I have recently made my first post to the "Stoves" list under the
subject "another lurker pops up" and you can get some insight to my activities
by referring to that post.
James Fields wrote:
"I am examining the feasibility of
constructing an indirect fluidized bed gasifier and utilizing the gas for
energy production. I am looking for suggestions or rules of thumb on
estimating transportation costs of the wood feedstock"
I am presently in the process of
setting up a woodchip to power operation but on a much smaller scale, I am
setting up the entire operation at the site where we grow and harvest the fuel
from coppiced woodland. You haven't said just what the wood chip is coming
from but if it is wet I presume it is tree debris rather than scrap lumber
(which could be rain soaked/waterlogged in any event), either way, do you
really want to pay to transport hundreds of tons of water 15 miles across
Texas? If you can't set up the plant at the site of the fuel source, which is
by far the method of choice, then the next best thing is to leave what you
don't want at that site and what you definitely don't want is water! - water
will be your biggest problem throughout the entire operation it gives you
transportation problems (every 20 ton load can include around 8 tons of
water), storage problems (fungus and spores etc) and a greater chance of
spontaneous combustion problems and final combustion problems by, amongst
other things, diluting the gas. Tom Reed made a very valid comment in his
reply to my post on "stoves" he said (quote) " We don't burn wet gasoline, so
why should we think we can burn wet wood?" However the combustion
problem can be overcome by employing the combustion method that I use, but I
haven't got to worry about transportation costs, if I did then I would
certainly dry before transporting.
Sun drying woodchip is slow and not
easy, which is why woodchip makes such a good horticultural mulch, the
mechanical handing requirements for constant turning of the chip during
sun/free air drying may be economically prohibitive, especially with the
quantity you are consuming and the time scale allowed. I would suggest that
you set up a drying operation at the landfill site using a recirculating steam
drying process, moving the wood chip through in a thin layer on a conveyor or
even by bulk drying it before chipping, it will pay for itself in no time and
can of course be fired by woodchip or, if available, methane from the land
fill. This method will also provide "waste" heat which can be reused on the
site, you may even be able to sell it back to the landfill site for heating
etc. By using this method you can transport ONLY the dry fuel using bulk
containers which will give you at least 35/40 percent more combustible fuel
capacity per trip. Storage problems on the power site can also be overcome by
using a "just in time" method and holding only a few days
supply.
I hope this will be of help.

David Reynolds-Lacey

From kchisholm at ca.inter.net Sun Apr 21 10:17:47 2002
From: kchisholm at ca.inter.net (Kevin Chisholm)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:57 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Transportation Cost and Storage
In-Reply-To: <002101c1e57f$73fbe5a0$e9a41942@z8o5f0>
Message-ID: <00a501c1e968$f0ee3c60$ee19059a@kevin>

Dear Cody
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
----- Original Message -----
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black">From:
James
Fields
To: <A title=d.rl@virgin.net
href="mailto:d.rl@virgin.net">David Reynolds-Lacey ; <A
title=gasification@crest.org
href="mailto:gasification@crest.org">gasification@crest.org
Sent: Sunday, April 21, 2002 2:15
PM
Subject: Re: GAS-L: Transportation Cost
and Storage

Thanks for the suggestion. We hadn't
thought of drying the wood before transporting it, but it is the most sensible
thing to do. There is an abundance of landfill gas available to us
currently being flared.

1: It may very well be that drying the wood "on site" will
not reduce your freight costs at all.... generally chip trucks are limited by
VOLUME rather than weight; drying the wood "on site" could result in the same
"cost per load" even though the weight is less.

2: If you have landfill gas available, why not use it in an
engine and generate electric power on site???? You would still have about 2/3
of the contained energy for drying, if that was an economically advantageous
move to make.

Kindest regards,

Kevin Chisholm

From cfields at mail.utexas.edu Sun Apr 21 10:58:15 2002
From: cfields at mail.utexas.edu (James Fields)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:57 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Transportation Cost and Storage
In-Reply-To: <002101c1e57f$73fbe5a0$e9a41942@z8o5f0>
Message-ID: <000f01c1e96e$d3322dc0$e9a41942@z8o5f0>

We are currently investigating using the landfill
gas with capstone microturbines. It may be possible to use the waste heat
off the capstone to aid in drying.

Cody Fields
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
----- Original Message -----
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black">From:
Kevin
Chisholm
To: <A title=cfields@mail.utexas.edu
href="mailto:cfields@mail.utexas.edu">James Fields ; <A
title=d.rl@virgin.net href="mailto:d.rl@virgin.net">David Reynolds-Lacey ;
<A title=gasification@crest.org
href="mailto:gasification@crest.org">gasification@crest.org
Sent: Sunday, April 21, 2002 2:08
PM
Subject: Re: GAS-L: Transportation Cost
and Storage

Dear Cody
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
----- Original Message -----
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black">From:
James
Fields
To: <A title=d.rl@virgin.net
href="mailto:d.rl@virgin.net">David Reynolds-Lacey ; <A
title=gasification@crest.org
href="mailto:gasification@crest.org">gasification@crest.org
Sent: Sunday, April 21, 2002 2:15
PM
Subject: Re: GAS-L: Transportation Cost
and Storage

Thanks for the suggestion. We hadn't
thought of drying the wood before transporting it, but it is the most
sensible thing to do. There is an abundance of landfill gas available
to us currently being flared.

1: It may very well be that drying the wood "on site" will
not reduce your freight costs at all.... generally chip trucks are limited
by VOLUME rather than weight; drying the wood "on site" could result in the
same "cost per load" even though the weight is less.

2: If you have landfill gas available, why not use it in
an engine and generate electric power on site???? You would still have about
2/3 of the contained energy for drying, if that was an economically
advantageous move to make.

Kindest regards,

Kevin Chisholm

From Gavin at roseplac.worldonline.co.uk Sun Apr 21 14:12:50 2002
From: Gavin at roseplac.worldonline.co.uk (Gavin Gulliver-Goodall)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:58 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Transportation Cost and Storage
In-Reply-To: <000f01c1e96e$d3322dc0$e9a41942@z8o5f0>
Message-ID: <MABBJLGAAFJBOBCKKPMGCEBICFAA.Gavin@roseplac.worldonline.co.uk>

Kevin is
right and wrong-

In my
experience wet woodchips will not fill a UK 40tonne unit (25tonne 70m3 payload) however with dry
(15%-20% wb) you can only get about 15-18 tonnes of payload in with a huge heaped
piles above the sides of the trailer.

There is
also some saving for not hauling so much weight and perhaps using a smaller
tractor unit (less capex and operating costs)

Why use
capstones – designed for natural gas- nice and clean when there are existing proven
technologies (reciprocating gas engines) for that application?

I will be
surprised if all your timber requirements can be met within a sensible distance
of a landfill site?

You will need
to do a fairly wide ranging study to determine the optimum operating
relationship between the different options – even though all the capital
expenditure seems huge it is actually not so relevant as the ongoing operating
costs in what will be a marginal business.

So you
must look at what is the most economical (least manpower- least handling)
solution for harvesting trees and turning them into electricity fuel,

This as other
listers have mentioned is very site specific and , if you do not have the
expertise, then you would be best advised to engage someone who has:- Go for
track record and follow up references as there are many who would claim knowledge
they don’t have. You may well get some “free” help from turnkey suppliers
however they will want to make sure you are serious with financial backing
before they invest in preparing detailed proposals.

Kind regards

gavin

Gavin
Gulliver-Goodall

3G
Energi,

Tel +44 (0)1835
824201

Fax +44 (0)870
8314098

Mob +44 (0)7773
781498

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-----Original
Message-----
From: James Fields
[mailto:cfields@mail.utexas.edu]
Sent: Sunday, April 21, 2002 20:58
To: Kevin Chisholm; David
Reynolds-Lacey; gasification@crest.org
Subject: Re: GAS-L: Transportation
Cost and Storage

We are
currently investigating using the landfill gas with capstone
microturbines. It may be possible to use the waste heat off the capstone
to aid in drying.

Cody
Fields

From: <a
href="mailto:kchisholm@ca.inter.net" title="kchisholm@ca.inter.net">Kevin
Chisholm

To: <a
href="mailto:cfields@mail.utexas.edu" title="cfields@mail.utexas.edu">James
Fields ; David
Reynolds-Lacey ; <a href="mailto:gasification@crest.org"
title="gasification@crest.org">gasification@crest.org

From: <a
href="mailto:cfields@mail.utexas.edu" title="cfields@mail.utexas.edu">James
Fields

To: <a
href="mailto:d.rl@virgin.net" title="d.rl@virgin.net">David Reynolds-Lacey
; gasification@crest.org

Sent: Sunday, April 21, 2002
2:15 PM

Subject: Re:
GAS-L: Transportation Cost and Storage

Thanks
for the suggestion. We hadn't thought of drying the wood before
transporting it, but it is the most sensible thing to do. There is an abundance
of landfill gas available to us currently being flared.

1: It may
very well be that drying the wood "on site" will not reduce your
freight costs at all.... generally chip trucks are limited by VOLUME rather
than weight; drying the wood "on site" could result in the same
"cost per load" even though the weight is less.

2: If you
have landfill gas available, why not use it in an engine and generate electric
power on site???? You would still have about 2/3 of the contained energy for
drying, if that was an economically advantageous move to make.

From snkm at btl.net Sun Apr 21 15:00:42 2002
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:58 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Transportation Cost and Storage
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20020421173830.00aaa7a0@wgs1.btl.net>

At 02:57 PM 4/21/2002 -0500, James Fields wrote:
>>>>
We are currently investigating using the landfill gas with capstone
microturbines. It may be possible to use the waste heat off the capstone
to aid in drying. Cody Fields

*****************

No problems there -- with the over all efficiencies you will be getting
with that Capstone you'll have all kinds of waste heat handy.

If you used an efficient gas engine (reciprocating) -- you would get much
less waste heat -- but twice or more electrical power. And cost a lot less
to do it -- probably run longer as well.

There are a few gas engine experts on this list that could be more specific.

Peter Singfield -- Belize

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From snkm at btl.net Sun Apr 21 17:22:42 2002
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:58 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Transportation Cost and Storage
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20020421201816.009fc100@wgs1.btl.net>

At 10:58 PM 4/21/2002 -0300, you wrote:
>Dear Peter
>
>Just for your information, Capstones are actually quite efficient... in the
>order of about 30%. They rely on heat recuperation to get this.
>
>A serious problem with landfill gas is the fact that it contains silanes....
>organic silica compounds which plate out on the turbine wheels and/or cause
>erosion damage..
>
>Regards,
>
>Kevin

Thanks for the correction Kevin -- Gas engines get 40 plus percent -- on
methane rich fuels -- last forever -- and cost a fraction of a Capstone.

So -- only 33% more power (for a lot less headache) -- I stand corrected!!

I have heard that if you lose the heat recuperation unit -- replace that
with a steam boiler and steam turbine -- you can also break 40% over all
efficiencies.

Maybe they could do that??

Why do something simple and economic when you can build a plumbers
nightmare for a veritable fortune?? Why have something reliable -- when you
can be tearing it down doing expensive maintenance all the time??

Course -- they can cut down on that by throwing in some serious gas
cleaning stuff ahead of the turbine -- but that will cut down over all
efficiencies a bit more.

Still -- if you got lots of money -- and nothing better to do with it ---

Tom Taylor is the expert in this field of endeavor -- that is regarding
best gas to mechanical energy conversion units. What say Tom?? Would you
install a Capstone for dump gas??

Peter

>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Peter Singfield" <snkm@btl.net>
>To: <gasification@crest.org>
>Sent: Sunday, April 21, 2002 7:57 PM
>Subject: Re: GAS-L: Transportation Cost and Storage
>
>
>> At 02:57 PM 4/21/2002 -0500, James Fields wrote:
>> >>>>
>> We are currently investigating using the landfill gas with capstone
>> microturbines. It may be possible to use the waste heat off the capstone
>> to aid in drying. Cody Fields
>>
>> *****************
>>
>> No problems there -- with the over all efficiencies you will be getting
>> with that Capstone you'll have all kinds of waste heat handy.
>>
>> If you used an efficient gas engine (reciprocating) -- you would get much
>> less waste heat -- but twice or more electrical power. And cost a lot less
>> to do it -- probably run longer as well.
>>
>> There are a few gas engine experts on this list that could be more
>specific.
>>
>>
>> Peter Singfield -- Belize
>>

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From d.rl at virgin.net Mon Apr 22 12:57:49 2002
From: d.rl at virgin.net (David Reynolds-Lacey)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:58 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Transportation Cost and Storage
In-Reply-To: <002101c1e57f$73fbe5a0$e9a41942@z8o5f0>
Message-ID: <3CC4874C.F0CCEA17@virgin.net>

Dear James and all,

Kevin Chisholm wrote:

> 1: It may very well be that drying
> the wood "on site" will not reduce
> your freight costs at all....
> generally chip trucks are limited by
> VOLUME rather than weight; drying the
> wood "on site" could result in the
> same "cost per load" even though the
> weight is less.
>
Thank you for bringing this to my attention,
regulations obviously vary from country to
country. I am aware that woodchip is a little
different to some other products insofar as
reducing the weight by say 40 percent only reduces
the volume by around 10 percent but at least it's
dry. There are several haulage options available
in the UK, for example there are twin deck press
containers (sandwich type) in which the floor of
the top deck compresses the chip below, and also
"blow in" tankers into which the load is
compressed giving up to 35 percent more weight for
given volume (may be a little less with chip),
there are also bulk transporters that can haul up
to 30 percent greater volume on the same axle
configuration as the smaller volume (but heavier)
trucks. I would have thought that these options
and maybe others must be available in the US, but
maybe not. When I looked into transportation
costs I was informed by the UK Road Haulage
Association that there is a strong prejudice
amongst UK hauliers to the hauling of dead weight,
especially water. Finally, you must also take into
account that hauling lighter loads consumes less
fossil fuel and even if fuel cost is not a major
issue, then the environmental benefits must still
make the hauling of dry, lightweight woodchip the
method of choice.

Gavin Guliver-Goodall wrote:

Your name sounds familiar, have we met?

No, not yet but I believe we will soon.

I am interested in your recirculating steam dryer?

I think that you misunderstood, I didn't say that
I was using an RS dryer but I only suggested the
use of one if transportation was unavoidable. Our
prototype burner is at the source of the fuel and
is capable of burning fresh cut hazel chip at up
to 50 percent moisture content, the current one
runs at >50kW(t) with CO o/p at around 150ppm, a
larger version is to follow soon. I would also add
that I would only suggest the the use of a RS
dryer for wood chip if you have a use for the
"waste" heat, an atmospheric forced hot "air"
blower, fired from the waste methane at the
landfill or a sustainable fuel may be more
suitable, RS dryers would come into their own (in
my applications) more for drying logs for firewood
or prior to making charcoal. I am working on an RS
dryer, fired by our chip burner and will advise
you of progress.

Regards,

David

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From piolenc at mozcom.com Tue Apr 23 21:34:33 2002
From: piolenc at mozcom.com (F. Marc de Piolenc)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:58 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Gas Batteries
Message-ID: <3CC63EE2.A115D523@mozcom.com>

Found a section in, of all places, volume 2 of Stodola and Loewenstein's
_Steam and Gas Turbines_ that interests us.

Section 214 talks about "gas batteries" made up of high temperature fuel
cells with fused electrolytes and sintered iron-based electrodes running
on a mixture of CO, H2 and inert gases at high temperature (1650 F and
up). Based on Swiss and German patents of the nineteen teens. Lots of
technical problems that might easily be solved today. Sounds like a good
scheme for integration with a gazogène.

I can post a scan to any appropriate spot. Is there a Files area for
this list? Anybody know where I can find copies of old Swiss and German
patents.

Marc de Piolenc
Philippines
--
Remember September 11, 2001 but don't forget July 4, 1776

They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin

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From FBerton at CIWMB.ca.gov Mon Apr 29 12:16:01 2002
From: FBerton at CIWMB.ca.gov (Berton, Fernando)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:58 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Gasification = mass burn incineration?
Message-ID: <4A94EAE8A21FD411BDCB00D0B73E82AD044868E6@WMBMAIL>

"One analysis by the US EPA would appear to suggest toxic air emissions from gasification of solid waste equal to or greater than mass burn incineration."

Another question: What is the difference between starved air combustion and gasification/pyrolysis. My sense of the latter is that it is in an oxygen-depleted environment thus not allowing combustion. I liken it to baking a lasagna instead of barbecuing a steak. Is that an accurate metaphor?

From arnt at c2i.net Mon Apr 29 17:41:41 2002
From: arnt at c2i.net (Arnt Karlsen)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:58 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Gasification = mass burn incineration?
In-Reply-To: <4A94EAE8A21FD411BDCB00D0B73E82AD044868E6@WMBMAIL>
Message-ID: <20020430043912.1f4f0523.arnt@c2i.net>

On Mon, 29 Apr 2002 14:17:44 -0700,
"Berton, Fernando" <FBerton@CIWMB.ca.gov> wrote in message
<4A94EAE8A21FD411BDCB00D0B73E82AD044868E6@WMBMAIL>:

> > This statement was recently made in a letter to the California
> > Integrated Waste Management Board (CIWMB) and I would like opinions
> > from experts as to the veracity if this claim. The CIWMB has been

..do you have access to expertize capable of evaluating these opinions?

> > interested in using gasification of solid waste as an alternative to
> > landfilling and is aware

..so, you still have enough electricity in California?

..the average metric ton of raw MSW buys you about a MegaWattHour
of electricity, and another 1.5 MegaWattHour of district heat, done
_my_ way. No, I cannot do it for free. Your call.

> > of one facility in Woolongong, Australia that is in shakedown mode.
> > There is one project proponent in California that would gasify

..urls to these?

> > cellulosic material in which all recyclables and plastics have been
> > removed. Given

..remove the aluminum, fire the rest, if you wanna optimize a
profitable business. "Recycling all recyclables and plastics"
is as wise as banning whaleing and seal-hunting and then having
to ban fishing, because the whales and seals are starving.
Again, your call.

> > this particular feedstock, is the following statement accurate.
> >
> > "One analysis by the US EPA would appear to suggest toxic air
> > emissions from gasification of solid waste equal to or greater than
> > mass burn incineration."

..is right and/or wrong, that, depends on _what_ gasification
technology is to be used.

> Another question: What is the difference between starved air
> combustion and gasification/pyrolysis. My sense of the latter is that
> it is in an

..you assume "gasification" and pyrolysis is the same?
It is _not_.

..in thermochemical gasification, pyrolysis is driven by combustion,
and yields tars, the _primary_ combustible == fuel, and charcoal, the
_secondary_ fuel, _and_, the combustion _and_ reduction _catalyzer_.

..and yes, combustion gases are reduced to _poisonous_ CO gas,
and _politically_correct_ hydrogen gas, by combustion heat, too,
in the reduction catalyzer bed.

..traditionally, people tried to "starve-burn tarry charcoal".
Or they used biological gasification, aka "biogassing". Some of
these woodoos works too, once you manage to raise the right "bug"
culture. Sorry, no, I don't swing those woodoo chickens.

> oxygen-depleted environment thus not allowing combustion. I liken it
> to baking a lasagna instead of barbecuing a steak. Is that an
> accurate metaphor?

..no. See above.

.."_my_ way", as in: "Have gun, will travel":
http://www.crest.org/discussion/gasification/199903/msg00055.html
Half dead IVAR link in the above, moved to:
http://www.ivar.rl.no/IDybden/avlop/analyse.biopellets.cfm
Translation filter from norwegian to english:
http://www.tranexp.com/InterTran.cgi

..your call.

--
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen.
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
Scenarios always come in sets of three:
best case, worst case, and just in case.

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From Andries.Weststeijn at essent.nl Tue Apr 30 05:03:52 2002
From: Andries.Weststeijn at essent.nl (Weststeijn, Andries)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:58 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Gasification = mass burn incineration?
Message-ID: <BD061DE469F0D511909400508B5C11D314E9D9@sp0044.epz.nl>

Fernando,

Are you differentiating between toxic concentrations (in the product gas or
flue gas) and absolute quantities released?

Generally speaking, I could imagine that the toxic concentrations in the
product gas from oxygen gasification are higher than in the (diluted) flue
gas from burning. But also, that there could be an advantage in removing the
toxic components from the smaller quantity of higher concentrated product
gas.
I can see a parallel with sulfur removal after coal gasification: i.e.
removal of a higher concentration of sulfur from a smaller volume of coal
gas, than removing that same amount of sulfur from a higher volume of flue
gas from coal burning (diluted with lots of nitrogen from the combustion
air).

Your message quotes one specific project which intends to gasify selected
"cellulosic material with recyclables and plastics removed". Sounds pretty
clean to me! That for this project absolute emissions from this selected
cellulosic fuel would be "equal or greater than mass burn incineration"
doesn't appear to be logical.

It looks to me that the key of your question is in the specific gasification
fuels chosen by USEPA for comparison with general mass waste incineration.
Also, clearly, the technological level of gas and flue gas cleaning
considered (or predicted) by USEPA for each route is of importance.

I could imagine the following sequence of comparisons:
1) compare landfill with mass solid waste incineration (combustion)
2) select certain higher potential waste fuels from incineration
3) optimize specific emissions controls going with the dedicated
gasification of these selected fuels
3) compare emissions of gasification of selected waste fuels with mass solid
waste incineration (not landfill).

best,
Andries

-----Original Message-----
From: Berton, Fernando [mailto:FBerton@CIWMB.ca.gov]
Sent: Monday, April 29, 2002 11:18 PM
To: 'gasification@crest.org'
Subject: GAS-L: Gasification = mass burn incineration?

This statement was recently made in a letter to the California Integrated
Waste Management Board (CIWMB) and I would like opinions from experts as to
the veracity if this claim. The CIWMB has been interested in using
gasification of solid waste as an alternative to landfilling and is aware of
one facility in Woolongong, Australia that is in shakedown mode. There is
one project proponent in California that would gasify cellulosic material in
which all recyclables and plastics have been removed. Given this particular
feedstock, is the following statement accurate.
"One analysis by the US EPA would appear to suggest toxic air emissions from
gasification of solid waste equal to or greater than mass burn
incineration."
Another question: What is the difference between starved air combustion and
gasification/pyrolysis. My sense of the latter is that it is in an
oxygen-depleted environment thus not allowing combustion. I liken it to
baking a lasagna instead of barbecuing a steak. Is that an accurate
metaphor?

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http://www.crest.org/discussion/gasification/200202/

From LINVENT at aol.com Tue Apr 30 06:57:41 2002
From: LINVENT at aol.com (LINVENT@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:58 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Gasification = mass burn incineration?
Message-ID: <c6.aceed51.2a00189c@aol.com>

In a message dated 4/30/02 8:10:14 AM, Andries.Weststeijn@essent.nl writes:

<< Fernando,

Are you differentiating between toxic concentrations (in the product gas or

flue gas) and absolute quantities released?

Generally speaking, I could imagine that the toxic concentrations in the

product gas from oxygen gasification are higher than in the (diluted) flue

gas from burning. But also, that there could be an advantage in removing the

toxic components from the smaller quantity of higher concentrated product

gas.

I can see a parallel with sulfur removal after coal gasification: i.e.

removal of a higher concentration of sulfur from a smaller volume of coal

gas, than removing that same amount of sulfur from a higher volume of flue

gas from coal burning (diluted with lots of nitrogen from the combustion

air).

Your message quotes one specific project which intends to gasify selected

"cellulosic material with recyclables and plastics removed". Sounds pretty

clean to me! That for this project absolute emissions from this selected

cellulosic fuel would be "equal or greater than mass burn incineration"

doesn't appear to be logical.

It looks to me that the key of your question is in the specific gasification

fuels chosen by USEPA for comparison with general mass waste incineration.

Also, clearly, the technological level of gas and flue gas cleaning

considered (or predicted) by USEPA for each route is of importance.

I could imagine the following sequence of comparisons:

1) compare landfill with mass solid waste incineration (combustion)

2) select certain higher potential waste fuels from incineration

3) optimize specific emissions controls going with the dedicated

gasification of these selected fuels

3) compare emissions of gasification of selected waste fuels with mass solid

waste incineration (not landfill).

best,

Andries >>

Dear Andries et. al,
Unfortunately, even with a "clean fuel" such as plastics removed and the
like, combustion to steam conversion efficiency is not very high. In areas
where power generation is viable, this can work economically. Separation
needs to be quite good to prevent metals contamination of the gas stream as
even little watch batteries can add heavy metals to the gas stream.
Gasification can yield much higher conversion efficiency as IC engines or
gas turbines have better efficiency than steam boilers. Waste heat from the
engines can add more efficiency in a combined cycle configuration.
Thermogenics has re-demonstrated the ability to remove sulfur from the
gas stream from sulfur containing fuels in gasification. Recent flame
photometry and GC/MS conducted by Sandia National Laboratories has shown no
detectable sulfur from tire gasification in the producer gas. Heating value
was over 200 btu/scf. This system does not have any specific sulfur removing
equipment in the gas cleaning train, only aerosol, tars, oils and water
removal design which is standard equipment for the gasifier we offer. The
suspected methodology of removal is an interesting study in physics.
Prior tests by Radian have shown minor organic sulfur compounds in the
gas stream when operated at near combustion on automobile shredder fluff
which contained 1.2% sulfur. Although we have not run coal, we expect the
same outcome.
We are of the opinion that this will have a dramatic impact upon the
ability of a gasification system to operate a catalyst or other system which
is very sulfur sensitive. Chlorine has had similar results. Hence, removal of
plastics has not been necessary and we are interested in projects where
plastics are a major portion of the feed stream.

Sincerely,
Leland T. Taylor
President
Thermogenics Inc.
7100-2nd St. NW, Albuquerque, New Mexico 87107
phone 505-761-5633 fax 505-341-0424
Attached files are zipped and can be decompressed with <A
HREF="http://www.aladdinsys.com/expander/">www.aladdinsys.com/expander/ </A>

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From sigma at ix.netcom.com Tue Apr 30 07:16:04 2002
From: sigma at ix.netcom.com (Len Walde)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:58 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Gasification = mass burn incineration?
In-Reply-To: <BD061DE469F0D511909400508B5C11D314E9D9@sp0044.epz.nl>
Message-ID: <003501c1f061$e77da670$0000a398@Len>

Hi:
As matter of interest, a biomass gasifier project was recently dropped here
in No. Calif., when the State Air Resources Board advised that it would be
permitted only after it was proved that it met all clean air standards.

That is all the info. I have.

Best,
Len

----- Original Message -----
From: "Weststeijn, Andries" <Andries.Weststeijn@essent.nl>
To: "'Berton, Fernando'" <FBerton@CIWMB.ca.gov>
Cc: <gasification@crest.org>
Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 7:03 AM
Subject: RE: GAS-L: Gasification = mass burn incineration?

> Fernando,
>
> Are you differentiating between toxic concentrations (in the product gas
or
> flue gas) and absolute quantities released?
>
> Generally speaking, I could imagine that the toxic concentrations in the
> product gas from oxygen gasification are higher than in the (diluted) flue
> gas from burning. But also, that there could be an advantage in removing
the
> toxic components from the smaller quantity of higher concentrated product
> gas.
> I can see a parallel with sulfur removal after coal gasification: i.e.
> removal of a higher concentration of sulfur from a smaller volume of coal
> gas, than removing that same amount of sulfur from a higher volume of flue
> gas from coal burning (diluted with lots of nitrogen from the combustion
> air).
>
> Your message quotes one specific project which intends to gasify selected
> "cellulosic material with recyclables and plastics removed". Sounds pretty
> clean to me! That for this project absolute emissions from this selected
> cellulosic fuel would be "equal or greater than mass burn incineration"
> doesn't appear to be logical.
>
> It looks to me that the key of your question is in the specific
gasification
> fuels chosen by USEPA for comparison with general mass waste incineration.
> Also, clearly, the technological level of gas and flue gas cleaning
> considered (or predicted) by USEPA for each route is of importance.
>
> I could imagine the following sequence of comparisons:
> 1) compare landfill with mass solid waste incineration (combustion)
> 2) select certain higher potential waste fuels from incineration
> 3) optimize specific emissions controls going with the dedicated
> gasification of these selected fuels
> 3) compare emissions of gasification of selected waste fuels with mass
solid
> waste incineration (not landfill).
>
> best,
> Andries
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Berton, Fernando [mailto:FBerton@CIWMB.ca.gov]
> Sent: Monday, April 29, 2002 11:18 PM
> To: 'gasification@crest.org'
> Subject: GAS-L: Gasification = mass burn incineration?
>
>
> This statement was recently made in a letter to the California Integrated
> Waste Management Board (CIWMB) and I would like opinions from experts as
to
> the veracity if this claim. The CIWMB has been interested in using
> gasification of solid waste as an alternative to landfilling and is aware
of
> one facility in Woolongong, Australia that is in shakedown mode. There is
> one project proponent in California that would gasify cellulosic material
in
> which all recyclables and plastics have been removed. Given this
particular
> feedstock, is the following statement accurate.
> "One analysis by the US EPA would appear to suggest toxic air emissions
from
> gasification of solid waste equal to or greater than mass burn
> incineration."
> Another question: What is the difference between starved air combustion
and
> gasification/pyrolysis. My sense of the latter is that it is in an
> oxygen-depleted environment thus not allowing combustion. I liken it to
> baking a lasagna instead of barbecuing a steak. Is that an accurate
> metaphor?
>
>
> -
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> http://www.crest.org/discussion/gasification/200202/
>
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From rbaileys at prmenergy.com Tue Apr 30 07:33:17 2002
From: rbaileys at prmenergy.com (Ron Bailey)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:58 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Gasification = mass burn incineration?
In-Reply-To: <003501c1f061$e77da670$0000a398@Len>
Message-ID: <000601c1f065$7dc8f690$6601a8c0@RONSR>

Dear Len:

Are there any State Air Resources Boards that do permit gasifiers or any
other facilities before they meet all clean air standards?

Ron Bailey
rbaileys@prmenergy
http://www.prmenergy.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Len Walde [mailto:sigma@ix.netcom.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 11:13 AM
To: Weststeijn, Andries; 'Berton, Fernando'
Cc: gasification@crest.org
Subject: Re: GAS-L: Gasification = mass burn incineration?

That is all the info. I have.

Best,
Len

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http://www.crest.org/discussion/gasification/200202/

From Arotstein at ormat.com Tue Apr 30 23:50:45 2002
From: Arotstein at ormat.com (Ariel Rotstein)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:09:58 2004
Subject: GAS-L: cocoa to energy
Message-ID: <727CFCBBE1C3D41181FC005004201AA0013BA56B@ORMAT-NT>

Dear All,

Does anyone know of an experience in the combustion or gasification of cocoa husk or cocoa pulp ?

Best regards
Ariel Rotstein
R&D Dept.
Ormat Industries
Box 68.
Yavne, 81100
Israel
Tel: +972-8-9433860
Fax: +972-8-9439901
e-mail: ARotstein@ormat.com

BioEnergy Lists: Gasifiers & Gasification

April 2002 Gasification Archive