April 2003 Gasification Archive

From ktwu at ITRI.ORG.TW Tue Apr 1 02:34:20 2003
From: ktwu at ITRI.ORG.TW (Keng-Tung Wu)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:24:23 2004
Subject: Tar sampling train
Message-ID: <TUE.1.APR.2003.153420.0800.>

Dear Listers,

The researches on Energy project EEN5-1999-00507 (Tar protocol) are
developing a standard method (Protocol) for measurement of organic
contaminants in biomass producer gases. The methods now are described in
"Guideline for Sampling and Analysis of Tar and Particles in Biomass
Producer Gases (Ver. 3.3)."

Can anyone recommend the manufacturers which can provide the tar sampling
train (whole set or the individual module) shown in the Guideline? Which
manufacturers can offer an isokinetic sampling tube used for gas
temperatures above 800 deg-C?

Thank you very much for your kind assistances indeed.

Best wishes

Keng-Tung

------------------------------------------------------------
Keng-Tung Wu, PhD
Biomass Energy Laboratory
Clean Energy Technology Division
Energy & Resources Laboratories
Industrial Technology Research Institute
Chutung, Hsinchu 310 TAIWAN, ROC

From herleikv at STUDENT.HIT.NO Wed Apr 2 06:24:22 2003
From: herleikv at STUDENT.HIT.NO (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Herleik_V=E5gslid?=)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:24:23 2004
Subject: ..OT:Re: [GASL] thermal depolymerization
In-Reply-To: <20030401024303.3d386963.arnt@c2i.net>
Message-ID: <WED.2.APR.2003.132422.0200.HERLEIKV@STUDENT.HIT.NO>

I don\'t quite understand what you mean with this. Do you care to explain, and
maybee tell us a little about yourself?
Herleik
Arnt Karlsen <arnt@C2I.NET>:

> On Mon, 31 Mar 2003 11:20:50 -0600,
> Peter Singfield <snkm@BTL.NET> wrote in message
> <3.0.32.20030331111835.00aadd00@btlmail.btl.net>:
>
> > Found this in my first search -- incredible. If only \"certain\" people
> > would listen up!
> >
> >
> > http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=3237
> >
> > Mr. Woolsey was director of Central Intelligence, 1993-1995. A longer
> > version of this article appears as a chapter in \"The Next American
> > Century\"(Rowman & Littlefield, 2002) and in the September issue of
> > Commentary.
> >
> >
> > Spiking the Oil Weapon
> > By R. James Woolsey
> > The Wall Street Journal | September 19, 2002
> >
>
> ..Mahatma Gandhi reportedly felt about the same way about
> Western civilization, as I feel about American intelligence:
> \"That would be a very good idea.\".
>
> --
> ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;-)
> ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
> Scenarios always come in sets of three:
> best case, worst case, and just in case.
>

*********************************
Vennlig hilsen
Stud. Herleik V?gslid
IT og automatisering, 3. kl
E-post: herleikv@student.hit.no
*********************************

From kchisholm at CA.INTER.NET Wed Apr 2 08:25:53 2003
From: kchisholm at CA.INTER.NET (Kevin Chisholm)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:24:23 2004
Subject: ..OT:Re: [GASL] thermal depolymerization
Message-ID: <WED.2.APR.2003.092553.0400.KCHISHOLM@CA.INTER.NET>

Dear Herleik

The message I get from the Article is that the Americans are on a mad rush
to disaster.... theirs, and the rest of the World. All they seem to want is
cheap oil, so that they don't have to bother conserving or doing things
properly. It appears, by their present actions, that they will do anything
to get control of cheap oil. Anything.

There is one way that the Americans can get out from under the "oil
weapon".... allow the American Citizen and Business to pay "real" oil
prices.... the same as you people in Europe do. Then there would be an
incentive for the personal or business consumer to conserve and/or use
alternative fuels.

Kindest regards,

Kevin Chisholm
----- Original Message -----
From: "Herleik V?gslid" <herleikv@STUDENT.HIT.NO>
To: <GASIFICATION@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2003 7:24 AM
Subject: Re: [GASL] ..OT:Re: [GASL] thermal depolymerization

I don\'t quite understand what you mean with this. Do you care to explain,
and
maybee tell us a little about yourself?
Herleik
Arnt Karlsen <arnt@C2I.NET>:

*********************************
Vennlig hilsen
Stud. Herleik V?gslid
IT og automatisering, 3. kl
E-post: herleikv@student.hit.no
*********************************

From herleikv at STUDENT.HIT.NO Wed Apr 2 08:19:59 2003
From: herleikv at STUDENT.HIT.NO (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Herleik_V=E5gslid?=)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:24:23 2004
Subject: ..OT:Re: [GASL] thermal depolymerization
In-Reply-To: <003701c2f91b$6d4e5ac0$069a0a40@kevin>
Message-ID: <WED.2.APR.2003.151959.0200.HERLEIKV@STUDENT.HIT.NO>

Dear Kevin Chisholm.
Thanks for the eplaniation.
It seems that even though oil is very usefull it is also a curse to the world.
Pollution is one thing, people killing other people to get it is another.
Maybee it\'s best to use it all up as soon as possible, and then there will be
more peace in the world. Or maybee we then will fight over water.
It is sad how we people work: The strong will always kick the weak\'s but to get
what he wants.

I\'m also wondering what Arnt Karlsen meant about:
> >..Mahatma Gandhi reportedly felt about the same way about
> > Western civilization, as I feel about American intelligence:
> > \\\"That would be a very good idea.\\\".

Herleik

Kevin Chisholm <kchisholm@ca.inter.net>:

> Dear Herleik
>
> The message I get from the Article is that the Americans are on a mad
> rush
> to disaster.... theirs, and the rest of the World. All they seem to want
> is
> cheap oil, so that they don\'t have to bother conserving or doing things
> properly. It appears, by their present actions, that they will do
> anything
> to get control of cheap oil. Anything.
>
> There is one way that the Americans can get out from under the \"oil
> weapon\".... allow the American Citizen and Business to pay \"real\" oil
> prices.... the same as you people in Europe do. Then there would be an
> incentive for the personal or business consumer to conserve and/or use
> alternative fuels.
>
> Kindest regards,
>
> Kevin Chisholm
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: \"Herleik V?gslid\" <herleikv@STUDENT.HIT.NO>
> To: <GASIFICATION@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2003 7:24 AM
> Subject: Re: [GASL] ..OT:Re: [GASL] thermal depolymerization
>
>
> I don\\\'t quite understand what you mean with this. Do you care to
> explain,
> and
> maybee tell us a little about yourself?
> Herleik
> Arnt Karlsen <arnt@C2I.NET>:
>
> > On Mon, 31 Mar 2003 11:20:50 -0600,
> > Peter Singfield <snkm@BTL.NET> wrote in message
> > <3.0.32.20030331111835.00aadd00@btlmail.btl.net>:
> >
> > > Found this in my first search -- incredible. If only \\\"certain\\\"
> people
> > > would listen up!
> > >
> > >
> > > http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=3237
> > >
> > > Mr. Woolsey was director of Central Intelligence, 1993-1995. A
> longer
> > > version of this article appears as a chapter in \\\"The Next American
> > > Century\\\"(Rowman & Littlefield, 2002) and in the September issue of
> > > Commentary.
> > >
> > >
> > > Spiking the Oil Weapon
> > > By R. James Woolsey
> > > The Wall Street Journal | September 19, 2002
> > >
> >
> > ..Mahatma Gandhi reportedly felt about the same way about
> > Western civilization, as I feel about American intelligence:
> > \\\"That would be a very good idea.\\\".
> >
> > --
> > ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;-)
> > ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
> > Scenarios always come in sets of three:
> > best case, worst case, and just in case.
> >
>
>
> *********************************
> Vennlig hilsen
> Stud. Herleik V?gslid
> IT og automatisering, 3. kl
> E-post: herleikv@student.hit.no
> *********************************
>
>

*********************************
Vennlig hilsen
Stud. Herleik V?gslid
IT og automatisering, 3. kl
E-post: herleikv@student.hit.no
*********************************

From snkm at BTL.NET Wed Apr 2 09:11:03 2003
From: snkm at BTL.NET (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:24:23 2004
Subject: ..OT:Re: [GASL] thermal depolymerization
Message-ID: <WED.2.APR.2003.081103.0600.SNKM@BTL.NET>

At 01:24 PM 4/2/2003 +0200, Herleik V?gslid wrote:
>I don\'t quite understand what you mean with this. Do you care to explain,
and
>maybee tell us a little about yourself?
>Herleik
> Arnt Karlsen <arnt@C2I.NET>:
>
>> On Mon, 31 Mar 2003 11:20:50 -0600,
>> Peter Singfield <snkm@BTL.NET> wrote in message
>> <3.0.32.20030331111835.00aadd00@btlmail.btl.net>:
>>
>> > Found this in my first search -- incredible. If only \"certain\" people
>> > would listen up!

We can compare past policies on energy with present -- and -- future
policies on energy.

The move for alternative energy is dead -- and notice -- so is the interest
in alternative energies on this mail list.

Times have changed -- doubt they will change back for a long time. Probably
not before we have completely reverted back to stone age existence -- and
live in another dark ages.

Then we need nothing --

I see Norway just bombed in Afghanistan. As part of the coalition forces.

I notice Holland is big on supporting war with bombs to.

And Denmark -- and Belgium. Spain big time -- and England is foaming at the
mouth now. Full killing mode.

Looks like you people are set to blow yourselves up in short order.

What a fool I was -- thought you people were supposed to be "civilized" --
but just a little scratch and out pops the animal.

Have a fun dark ages Arnt -- advise you find some reindeer and get back in
practice living old style.

Forget Gasification -- that is ancient history now.

Peter

From kchisholm at CA.INTER.NET Wed Apr 2 09:12:11 2003
From: kchisholm at CA.INTER.NET (Kevin Chisholm)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:24:23 2004
Subject: ..OT:Re: [GASL] thermal depolymerization
Message-ID: <WED.2.APR.2003.101211.0400.KCHISHOLM@CA.INTER.NET>

Dear Herlik
Subject: Re: [GASL] ..OT:Re: [GASL] thermal depolymerization

Dear Kevin Chisholm.
Thanks for the eplaniation.

K: You are quite welcome!!

H: It seems that even though oil is very usefull it is also a curse to the
world.
Pollution is one thing, people killing other people to get it is another.
Maybee it\'s best to use it all up as soon as possible, and then there will
be
more peace in the world. Or maybee we then will fight over water.
It is sad how we people work: The strong will always kick the weak\'s but to
get
what he wants.

K: Yes. Do you think it would be a good idea if all the Nations of the World
got together, and agreed to discuss problems and negotiate solutions, rather
than having "bully boy Nations" with big sticks going out and beating up on
smaller nations? :-)

This is very subtle but totally brilliant. It can be explained as folows:

Q: What do you think of Western Civilization, Mr. Ghandi?
Ghandi: I think it would be a very good idea.
(This statement is also open to the interpretation "It would be a very
good idea if the Westerns became Civilized.")

I think you can draw the parallel with "Americn Intelligence." :-)

Kevin Chisholm

From herleikv at STUDENT.HIT.NO Wed Apr 2 09:19:05 2003
From: herleikv at STUDENT.HIT.NO (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Herleik_V=E5gslid?=)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:24:23 2004
Subject: ..OT:Re: [GASL] thermal depolymerization
In-Reply-To: <006101c2f921$fadefd30$069a0a40@kevin>
Message-ID: <WED.2.APR.2003.161905.0200.HERLEIKV@STUDENT.HIT.NO>

Kevin Chisholm <kchisholm@ca.inter.net>:

>
> H: It seems that even though oil is very usefull it is also a curse to
> the
> world.
> Pollution is one thing, people killing other people to get it is
> another.
> Maybee it\\\'s best to use it all up as soon as possible, and then there
> will
> be
> more peace in the world. Or maybee we then will fight over water.
> It is sad how we people work: The strong will always kick the weak\\\'s
> but to
> get
> what he wants.
>
> K: Yes. Do you think it would be a good idea if all the Nations of the
> World
> got together, and agreed to discuss problems and negotiate solutions,
> rather
> than having \"bully boy Nations\" with big sticks going out and beating up
> on
> smaller nations? :-)

That seems like the perfect situation, but is it possible? The UN was supposed
to have that funtion. I think they do a mistake by saying: \"Do it this way or
face serious consequences.\" When someone does not agree we can not go back on
what we said and must go to war, and war creates no good and makes no solution.

>
> Q: What do you think of Western Civilization, Mr. Ghandi?
> Ghandi: I think it would be a very good idea.
> (This statement is also open to the interpretation \"It would be a
> very
> good idea if the Westerns became Civilized.\")
>
> I think you can draw the parallel with \"Americn Intelligence.\" :-)
>
> Kevin Chisholm
>

Now I get it :-)
Herleik

From arnt at C2I.NET Wed Apr 2 23:39:21 2003
From: arnt at C2I.NET (Arnt Karlsen)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:24:23 2004
Subject: ..OT:Rant, was: [GASL] thermal depolymerization
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20030402080316.00a7ad60@btlmail.btl.net>
Message-ID: <THU.3.APR.2003.063921.0200.ARNT@C2I.NET>

On Wed, 2 Apr 2003 08:11:03 -0600,
Peter Singfield <snkm@BTL.NET> wrote in message
<3.0.32.20030402080316.00a7ad60@btlmail.btl.net>:
>
> We can compare past policies on energy with present -- and -- future
> policies on energy.
>
> The move for alternative energy is dead -- and notice -- so is the
> interest in alternative energies on this mail list.

..judging from the traffic decline here, I tend to agree.

> Times have changed -- doubt they will change back for a long time.
> Probably not before we have completely reverted back to stone age
> existence -- and live in another dark ages.
>
> Then we need nothing --
>
> I see Norway just bombed in Afghanistan. As part of the coalition
> forces.
>
> I notice Holland is big on supporting war with bombs to.
>
> And Denmark -- and Belgium. Spain big time -- and England is foaming
> at the mouth now. Full killing mode.
>
> Looks like you people are set to blow yourselves up in short order.
>
> What a fool I was -- thought you people were supposed to be
> "civilized" -- but just a little scratch and out pops the animal.

..for the record, I voted No on Norway joining the EU.
I will do that over and over again, until the EU _begins_
considering "non-europeans" part of mankind.
Have No Illusions.

..remember the Cold War Iron Curtain? Check out EU's eastern and
southern borders, and the EU Spanish colony borders in Africa.

> Have a fun dark ages Arnt -- advise you find some reindeer and get
> back in practice living old style.
>
> Forget Gasification -- that is ancient history now.
>

..hah! ;-), I'm getting my first wee plant back out of my freight
container in a couple of weeks, and, I have a scrap yard client with
a brand new mill to chew his annual 500 tons of wood pallets into
our classic gasifier wood pellet size.

..besides, the Lappland reindeer population needs to drop 95 percent,
to _get_ sustainable, the Norwegian policy towards Lapps is just like
the French policy towards anyone from continents starting letter A,
like Asia, Africa and America, "Hush 'n fuck'em".

..the Norwegian government has excempted the boards of our power
companies, from all responsibilities company boards usually have under
corporate law, so the idiot government takes the blame for the boards
draining the dams in the summer for less than a US cent per kWh, and
for selling power at Californian summer prices in the winter.

..so I'm getting back into the gas cooking business. ;-)
I fund this out of my 802.11-networking business, which came
out of the blue: my first clients frustration with Microsoft
Wintendo stability and the legal terms in their EULA's. ;-)

..yes, the Norwegian government is pro-EU, just like George W Bush.

..the hilarious part is the way everybody whines about Iraqi oil;
the EU alias le noblesse francais is screwing you Yanks (and pro-EU
Blair???) the same way as in Vietnam; whatever they can't handle
themselves, they light up and drop into your lap, and you idiots,
won't let go.

..in the movie, Forrest Gump has the guts, and wits, to get
his buddies _out_ of the ambush, where you yanks shut your
eyes and charge right _in_, into "rolling demployment".

.."Name one." from a Neo-Nazi, thaught me _no_ attempt was made in
WWII to harm Jew transports to Auschwitz et al. The obvious way
would have been bomb etc rails and drop arms, ammo, advicers etc
to have a million Jew guerillas set up an heartland front to draw
nazi troops off the east and west fronts, and end WWII in 1943.

..instead, the remaining Jews were dumped into Palestine, and
_your_ lap.

..after you win the war and lose the peace and are run out by
the muslims, you will have buy your oil, somewhere _else_.

..so, au francais: "Lets nuke NATO too". Norway still has military
and industrial control over our continental shelf, and, we still have
oil and gas for a generation or so of yanks, _or_, EUropeans.

..half a generation, if we do both. WWIII and Gulf War II alias
the Bush Crusade needs a gas tank, and _can_ be said to solve this
Terrible Global Population Explosion[Tm] etc, where these
Unterm?nchen und Muselm?nner[Tm] alias Gooks 'n Niggahs[Tm] alias
Non-EUropeans and Asylum Seekers[Tm], Threathen Our Western and
Christian Civilization[Tm], by looking skinny as if they would like
an itzy bitzy pee wee bit of Our Resources und Unsere Lebensraum[Tm],
to ease their childrens hunger.

...this concept of the future world, is a product of nitwits whining
for more oil, rather than looking for sustainable (and profitable!)
alternatives, so, I intend to carry on my own wee bit of work on
thermochemical gasification, I do see a profit coming here.

..hell, I thought the Russians (and Chechens) bailed us out of WWIII
by _scrapping_ the Soviet Union. I was trained to fight this shit,
with you Gump's on my side. We all know who were on the right side.

..killing _is_ wrong, and also counterproductive in war, a wound yields
4 to 5 more military gain in combat than a kill. Aiming for your eye
and then lowering for mid-thigh shot is perfect if you see exactly
what happens, it hurts like hell, and, the wound can buy you a purple
heart or equivalent and half a year or so of peace and womanizing,
per wound, and is close enough to your balls to teach you to move
predictably. Is _how_ real pacifists help bail out the poor guys
on the wrong side. Sissies just squeal in rallies or spray ammo.

..war is legal for _exactly_ one single reason, to stop, prevent
and repress war crime. War then becomes an obligation. Failure
to act on such an oblibation, is a war crime, too. Just like
pillage.

..communist China even endorsed having the US go get the North Korean
Nuke Slinger[Tm] and get the people there freedom, democracy and food.

..in Iraq, the people actually _did_ get some food. And Saddam
Hussein committed war crimes _long_ before Gulf War I and Donald
Rumfeld's visit, possible before Jaques Chirac's visit too.

..so, who _is_ on the right side now? Those who _learn_ they
serve their family, nation and God, better with a bomb than
by carrying on their lifes as usual, because it _feels_right_,
_deep_ in their gut? Ever heard of common decency?
Feel your own gut, and, _get_ reasonable!

..if you Yanks _really_ needs revenge for Vietnam, drop a prop in
between Cuba and Florida, and put mankind on electric wheels until
France freezes over. It _would_ be profitable, too.

.._are_ we getting back to thermochemical gasification on this list?

--
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;-)
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
Scenarios always come in sets of three:
best case, worst case, and just in case.

From coda at ECN.NL Thu Apr 3 07:21:19 2003
From: coda at ECN.NL (Coda,mw B.)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:24:23 2004
Subject: Tar measurement standard
Message-ID: <THU.3.APR.2003.142119.0200.CODA@ECN.NL>

Dear Gasification Lister,

So far no well-developed and standardised measurement method exists for tars
in biomass-producer gases, and different sampling and analysis methods are
currently being used. In a previous EU-project (ERK6-CT1999-20002) a
Guideline for tar measurement ("the Guideline") was developed in order to
remove this obstacle. The Guideline aims at measurement of both gravimetric
tars as well as individual organic compounds. The measurement principle is
based on the discontinuous sampling of a gas stream containing particles and
condensable organic compounds.
The "Tar Guideline" activities continue now in a new EU project, the "Tar
measurement Standard (ENK5-CT2002-80648), which aims at the standardisation
of this sampling and analysis method at CEN (European Committee for
Standardisation).
This letter is to explain you the scope and timeline of the project, and in
which two ways technical experts could participate to the standardisation of
this method for sampling and analysis of tars.

SCOPE AND TIMELINE OF THE PROJECT

The main scope of the project is to arrive at a European Standard of the
Guideline. To achieve this objective, there are 2 main routes of activities
necessary:

1) R&D work in order to get all relevant data necessary to arrive at a
European Standard (e.g. data on accuracy and reproducibility of the method)

Two main groups of activities are foreseen:

a) Round Robin tests of gas chromatographic and gravimetric methods,
where syntethic and real tar samples will be sent out in different
laboratories, and reported.

b) Parallel testing, where different laboratories will carry out
simultaneous tar measurement to find out whether measurement method and
measuring equipment results in comparable numbers.

The organisation of the Round Robin tests (co-ordinated by Danish
Technological Institute) is well under way and samples for analysis are
expected to be sent out to institutes who already expressed their interest
in participation in the coming weeks. The parallel testing (on test-scale or
commercial-scale gasifiers) will take place next year, as their organisation
requires more time.

Additional interesting research activity (e.g. comparison of Guideline with
other methods) will be also included in the project.
With this project covering only the co-ordination cost, the actual R&D will
have to be covered by funding from other sources.

1) Following and executing the procedural work needed for CEN
Under CEN, the "Task Force" number 143 has been established to work at the
topic "Organic Contaminants -'tar'- in Biomass Products". The Task Force is
opened to representatives of each country affiliated to CEN, and each
representative (or each national delegation, if there is more than 1
representative per country) has the right of vote. The Task Force follows
the work on Standardisation, basically consisting of participation to
meetings with technical experts to discuss draft versions and scientific
content of the Standard.

The participants of the "Tar Measurement Standard" project will act as
national representatives in the Task Force. Other external experts or
people in the field can join, if interested, the Task Force activities.
Standardisation asks for a formal routing within CEN, which takes 9 months
up to 24 months depending on the type of standard to be applied for.

PARTECIPATION OF TECHNICAL EXPERTS

In addition to the project partners, also other technical experts are highly
welcomed to join in! Experts on bio-energy, gas cleaning and/or tar
measurement can contribute in two ways in the project:

1) Participation in Round Robin analyses or the parallel tests to be
performed in year 1 and 2 of the project (so before December 2004). Also
contribution in the "additional research" activities is welcomed. A complete
R&D plan, to be distributed on the short-term among the institutes that
would like to contribute to the work, may also facilitate to find national
funds necessary for the performance of the activities.

2) Participation in CEN Task Force 143 meetings. These are held about each 6
months and focus on the standardisation trajectory. Participation is only
possible after contacting the correspondent National Standardisation
Institute. These institutes have now received the formal call for
participation in the CEN-TF 143. If you are interested but are not able to
participate in the meetings, you could receive all documents through the
contact person of your national standardisation institute. The first
official CEN-TF 143 meeting is scheduled for next 12th-13th June, in
Helsinki.
Please be aware that participation of external parties at the CEN meetings
is at own cost. If you are interested but cannot participate to the
meetings, you could receive all documents through the contact person of the
National Standardisation Institute.

Additional information and the current version of the Tar Standard can be
found on our website www.tarweb.net. Follow-up information will be
distributed soon.

If you wish to participate in the Tar measurement standard activities,
please contact:
Beatrice Coda- Co-ordinator of the "Tar measurement Standard" project
(ENK5-CT2002-80648)
ECN Biomass
Energy research Centre of the Netherlands
P.O. Box 1, 1755 ZG Petten, The Netherlands
e-mail: coda@ecn.nl
tel: +31-(0)224-564359
fax: +31-(0)224-568487
Website: www.ecn.nl
Visiting address: Westerduinweg 3, Petten, NL-e-mail: coda@ecn.nl
<<...OLE_Obj...>>
Figure 1 The Guideline sampling set-up: atmospheric and isokinetic
sampling train for tar and particles with removable probe and pitot tubes
for flow measurement. Solvent used: iso-propanol. The liquid quench is
optional.

From snkm at BTL.NET Thu Apr 3 13:24:29 2003
From: snkm at BTL.NET (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:24:23 2004
Subject: Thermal Depolymerization -- Just the Facts Mam --
Message-ID: <THU.3.APR.2003.122429.0600.SNKM@BTL.NET>

At 07:31 PM 3/31/2003 EST, LINVENT@aol.com wrote:
>Dear Peter,
> We saw a huge pressure increase when we added hydrogen to the system. We
>did not have any particular problem with temperature overshoot as our
>residence time was limited.

I'd have to be there watching to comment further --

> My concern is the rather difficult nature of the ash from this process.
>It is a high rate and has properties which may cause handling problems on a
>scaled-up system. Although the comments in the article are somewhat
>optimistic as to "commercial", that is yet to be seen.

In the original posting in regards to gasifying using super critical water
I stuck with batch process -- long pressure reactors -- and ramming
charging them as you would with an old style gatling gun -- rotating the
barrels at the right speed for allowing process completion -- then
discharging the spend "cartridge" (the idea being that each charge would be
loaded in a container that would keep ash in it after gas had evolved) and
recharging with a fresh cylinder.

I have little faith in being able to develop a continuous process "through"
a single reaction vessel without losing it in extraordinary costs.

One does not to mount a rotating set of barrels -- simply a row of fixed
barrels each with its own charging/discharging equipment -- like a row of
modern artillery pieces.

Super critical water would be evacuated with each charge as well -- passed
through a heat exchanger against fresh charge of water in.

Actually -- if done right -- the same water can be exhausted as steam --
condensed at pressure -- and pumped back in with the next charge -- little
heat loss.

The plan was to use electrical induction heating and have a gen set fueled
by part of the off-gasses.

The reaction I was "expecting" being endothermic -- it was about pumping
heat in fast enough -- but they seem to be showing exothermic reactions as
well -- ergo -- heat spikes.

The equipment they show at this Url:

http://www.age.uiuc.edu/bee/research/tcc/tccpaper1.htm

is little different from the prototype system I was suggesting -- though
they are operating at much lower temps and pressures.

A small -- single batch -- reactor.

> We did not run solids in the process only some of the pyrolygenous
>liquids which we produce in quantities. The tars were separated prior to
>operation to allow the systems main pressurization pump to operate. We did
>not set the system up to handle solids unless they were slurried.

In my searchings of this subject I came across references of this being the
best way to process old car tires. Actually -- if I had such a pressure
reactor set up -- car tire chunks pressed in to fit -- would be one of the
first interesting experiments to pursue.

Bagasse would be the other.

For people that might not remember -- have appended the short description
of the Hawaiian effort in this same direction of investigation. It is those
pressure and temps I saw "fit" as a starting point:

"completely gasified in supercritical water at 600C
and 34.5 MPa (5,000 psi) after 30 seconds"

and

"The gaseous products
(primarily hydrogen, CO2, and methane)"

With 900 C probably producing more syngas -- much less methane and CO2 --

But that is very hot supercritical water!! Still -- know how to this --
been there -- done it before -- but for water hammer explosions for seismic
sound source.

Then it was heat the reactor up -- and fast release it into surrounding
ocean medium -- producing a very sharp spike of high power shock wave at
the right frequency for seismic exploration -- and no bubble effect as in
air guns to make a high sound to noise ratio.

That worked very well -- but by the time we had it developed in prototype
stage -- interest in deep water oil exploration (North of New Foundland)
had died away.

Oil is there -- but to expensive to recover just yet.

All of this in the late 1970's

Development included insulated pressure reactors -- electric heating of
such -- water injection -- valving. All at 50 feet down in 34 F salt water.

I was using a jacket of molten metal (zinc die cast alloy #2) has a heat
sink and heat capacitor to control temperature spikes. That worked very
well -- establishing a good thermodynamic buffer to rapid temperature
changes -- establishing accurate reproductions -- shot to shot.

One "shot" ever six seconds -- as unit trolled behind vessel.

I believe applications discovered in that research apply well to this
direction of gasification presently under discussion.

I still have patent claims relevant to this field of endeavor -- US patent
office.

Search "singfield" -- and you shall find.

> I did not run an analysis on the output gas/liquids as the GC's which we
>have were not working at that time. We have not been working on the system
>since several weeks ago as other items have been higher priority. We can
>resume work in a week or two.

Would be interesting to know gasses so evolved. If I remember we
hypothesized that temperature levels would dictate if product gas would be
rich in syngas or methane. Higher temps being syngas.

> Sounds very interesting.
>

That old saying comes to mind -- what goes around come around??

Peter / Belize

>Leland T. Taylor
>President
>Thermogenics Inc.
>7100-F 2nd St. NW Albuquerque, New Mexico USA 87107 Phone: 505-761-5633,
fax:
>341-0424, website: thermogenics.com.
>In order to read the compressed files forwarded under AOL, it is necessary
to
>download Aladdin's freeware Unstuffit at
>http://www.stuffit.com/expander/index.html

**************************appended******************

Hydrogen Production/Recovery/Storage

DOE (Government) Funded

--------------------------------------------------------------------

HYDROGEN PRODUCTION FROM HIGH-MOISTURE CONTENT BIOMASS IN
SUPERCRITICAL WATER
[IMAGE]

--------------------------------------------------------------------

PROJECT DESCRIPTION

This project is investigating the use of water as the medium for
converting biomass to gas. Previous work showed that low
concentrations of a model compound (glucose) and various wet biomass
species could be completely gasified in supercritical water at 600C
and 34.5 MPa (5,000 psi) after 30 seconds. But higher concentrations
of glucose resulted in incomplete conversion. For this reason, flow
reactors have been constructed that accommodate packed beds of
catalyst. The goal is to identify active catalysts for steam
reforming biomass slurries in supercritical water. Carbon-based
catalysts promote complete conversion (>99%) of high-concentration
glucose (up to 22% by weight) to a hydrogen-rich synthesis gas. The
catalyst is stable over a period of several hours, is inexpensive,
and exists in a wide variety of forms. The gaseous products
(primarily hydrogen, CO2, and methane) separate from the water upon
cooling at the reactor exit and are then available for storage or
further processing at a pressure of 34.5 MPa.

PARTICIPANT

University of Hawaii

STATUS
Project is ongoing

--------------------------------------------------------------------

FUNDING PROFILE

Funding Source: DOE/Office of Energy Efficiency and Renewable
Energy-Office of
Utility Technologies

Funding Mechanism: Grant
Funding Level (in thousands):Funding Level (in thousands):
------------------------------------------------
FY94 FY95 FY96 TOTAL
________________________________________________
U of Hawaii $140 $150 $200 $490
------------------------------------------------

PRINCIPAL INVESTIGATOR/
POINT OF CONTACT

U. OF HAWAII
M. Antal
Phone: 808-956-8346
Fax : 808-956-2335

--------------------------------------------------------------------

6-23

--------------------------------------------------------------------

*** References from this document ***

[orig] http://search.dis.anl.gov/plweb-cgi/idoc_oit.pl?231+unix+\
op+no+_free_user_+search.dis.anl.gov+oit-db+oit-db+oit+oit+++++1\
%20minute+3+http://refining.dis.anl.gov/oit/toc/h2proc_8.html+Re\
turn_to_Hydrogen_Production/Recovery/Storage_TOC

From LINVENT at AOL.COM Sun Apr 6 16:14:09 2003
From: LINVENT at AOL.COM (LINVENT@AOL.COM)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:24:23 2004
Subject: ..OT:Re: [GASL] thermal depolymerization
Message-ID: <SUN.6.APR.2003.161409.EDT.>

Dear Oil users,
Europeans do not pay "real" oil prices. The price for oil there is the
same in other parts of the world, only the taxes are higher. The US has
appointed itself as keeper of the peace and policeman of the world. Oil is
only one of it's prime interests. It is currently carving up the oil from
Iraq for sale. This is the first time the US is practicing "imperialism" in
it's real form, conquering a rogue nation in order to have it's assets. This
is a very dangerous precedent, but not much different from prior policies of
Panama extraction of Noriega, Somalia, bombing of Cambodia, kidnapping of
Chile's President, East Timor fiasco, etc. See the movie "The War Crimes of
Henry Kissinger".
Not only is President Bush trying to avenge his father's loss of
re-election because of the lack of capture of Sadam, but is trying to divert
the real focus from failing to capture Bin Laden. I heard a comment that Bin
Laden was last seen in North Korea in a wheel chair. North Korea should be
somewhere up on our high profile radar screen.
i just returned from Colombia and they are aghast at what we are doing in
Iraq. We have lost substantial face there because of it. The latest bump in
prices was due to Venezuela and Nigeria, not the Mideast. The price of
gasoline is $1.20/gallon there.
Until the US asserts it techical prowess and begins making oil from coal
and other resources which we have abundant supplies of, we will be at the
mercy of the infidels and those who want to harass us. However, even if we
did not import oil from the Mideast, we would still support Israel and suffer
the same problems. Oil is like slavery was in the Civil War, only a vestige
of the real issue.
My concern is that very shortly the US is going to default on it's debt.
It cannot spend like it has. This will have more to undo the presidency than
anything else.

Leland T. Taylor
President
Thermogenics Inc.
7100-F 2nd St. NW Albuquerque, New Mexico USA 87107 Phone: 505-761-5633, fax:
341-0424, website: thermogenics.com.
In order to read the compressed files forwarded under AOL, it is necessary to
download Aladdin's freeware Unstuffit at
http://www.stuffit.com/expander/index.html

From FMurrl at AOL.COM Sun Apr 6 20:35:13 2003
From: FMurrl at AOL.COM (FMurrl@AOL.COM)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:24:23 2004
Subject: ..OT:Re: [GASL] thermal depolymerization
Message-ID: <SUN.6.APR.2003.203513.EDT.>

In a message dated 4/6/2003 4:17:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, LINVENT@AOL.COM
writes:

> Europeans do not pay "real" oil prices. The price for oil there is the
> same in other parts of the world, only the taxes are higher. The US has
> appointed itself as keeper of the peace and policeman of the world. Oil is
> only one of it's prime interests. It is currently carving up the oil from
> Iraq for sale. This is the first time the US is practicing "imperialism" in
> it's real form, conquering a rogue nation in order to have it's assets.
> This
> is a very dangerous precedent, but not much different from prior policies
> of
> Panama extraction of Noriega, Somalia, bombing of Cambodia, kidnapping of
> Chile's President, East Timor fiasco, etc. See the movie "The War Crimes of
> Henry Kissinger".
>

What the hell does this crap have to do with renewable energy?

Why is it being circulated on our list?

Fred Murrell
Bradenton Florida USA

From kchisholm at CA.INTER.NET Mon Apr 7 00:15:11 2003
From: kchisholm at CA.INTER.NET (Kevin Chisholm)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:24:23 2004
Subject: ..OT:Re: [GASL] thermal depolymerization
Message-ID: <MON.7.APR.2003.011511.0300.KCHISHOLM@CA.INTER.NET>

Dear Fred

The cruel and sad reality is that the oil prices are being distorted so that
they do not reflect the true cost. As a consequence, renewable energy
efforts are not as cost effective as they otherwise would be.

Gasoline in Texas was selling for $US1.37 per US Gallon, or about $US.36 per
litre. In Canada, it was about $C.88 per litre, say $US.57 per litre. Not
included in the costs, for example, are the US Military costs to "assure a
supply of cheap energy".

Also not included are the "hidden costs" associated with fossil fuel....
environmental costs being one.

Oil Politics are exceedingly important to Renewable Energy. The problem is
that "oil is one of the greatest bargains of our time", and it is so cheap,
in some areas of the World, that it is hardly worth conserving. Low oil
prices undercut Renewable Energy Effort. Oil has many hidden subsidies,
while Renewables generally stand on their own.

Kindest regards,

Kevin Chisholm

----- Original Message -----
From: <FMurrl@AOL.COM>
To: <GASIFICATION@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2003 9:35 PM
Subject: Re: [GASL] ..OT:Re: [GASL] thermal depolymerization

> In a message dated 4/6/2003 4:17:08 PM Eastern Standard Time,
LINVENT@AOL.COM
> writes:
>
> > Europeans do not pay "real" oil prices. The price for oil there is the
> > same in other parts of the world, only the taxes are higher. The US has
> > appointed itself as keeper of the peace and policeman of the world. Oil
is
> > only one of it's prime interests. It is currently carving up the oil
from
> > Iraq for sale. This is the first time the US is practicing "imperialism"
in
> > it's real form, conquering a rogue nation in order to have it's assets.
> > This
> > is a very dangerous precedent, but not much different from prior
policies
> > of
> > Panama extraction of Noriega, Somalia, bombing of Cambodia, kidnapping
of
> > Chile's President, East Timor fiasco, etc. See the movie "The War Crimes
of
> > Henry Kissinger".
> >
>
> What the hell does this crap have to do with renewable energy?
>
> Why is it being circulated on our list?
>
> Fred Murrell
> Bradenton Florida USA

From hseaver at CYBERSHAMANIX.COM Mon Apr 7 11:02:00 2003
From: hseaver at CYBERSHAMANIX.COM (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:24:23 2004
Subject: ..OT:Re: [GASL] thermal depolymerization
In-Reply-To: <003d01c2fcbc$51f3ab50$d99a0a40@kevin>
Message-ID: <MON.7.APR.2003.100200.0500.HSEAVER@CYBERSHAMANIX.COM>

On Mon, Apr 07, 2003 at 01:15:11AM -0300, Kevin Chisholm wrote:
>
> Oil Politics are exceedingly important to Renewable Energy. The problem is
> that "oil is one of the greatest bargains of our time", and it is so cheap,
> in some areas of the World, that it is hardly worth conserving. Low oil
> prices undercut Renewable Energy Effort. Oil has many hidden subsidies,
> while Renewables generally stand on their own.
>

Not to mention the fact that these warmongering criminal lunatics have
succeeded in creating so much hatred of the US already that the likelihood of
oil supplies being interrupted is extremely high. And further that the
likelihood of so many acts of terrorism now being carried out in the US are so
extremely high that our economy will never recover. All of which means that
gasification will become very important to provide heat, lights, and
transportation in the US and UK.

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com
This is America's Darkest Hour
http://www.oshkoshbygosh.org

From snkm at BTL.NET Mon Apr 7 11:36:14 2003
From: snkm at BTL.NET (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:24:23 2004
Subject: ..OT:Re: [GASL] thermal depolymerization
Message-ID: <MON.7.APR.2003.093614.0600.SNKM@BTL.NET>

At 10:02 AM 4/7/2003 -0500, Harmon Seaver wrote:
>
> Not to mention the fact that these warmongering criminal lunatics have
>succeeded in creating so much hatred of the US already that the likelihood of
>oil supplies being interrupted is extremely high. And further that the
>likelihood of so many acts of terrorism now being carried out in the US
are so
>extremely high that our economy will never recover. All of which means that
>gasification will become very important to provide heat, lights, and
>transportation in the US and UK.
>
>
>--
>Harmon Seaver

Just like it did for millions of people during WWII -- remember how this
mail list started??

Reviewing gasifiers of WWII!!

Necessity is the mother of all gasifiers!!

Maybe you all will be seeing SUVs with big charcoal gasifiers??

Instead of advancing into a hypothetical future scenario of high tech
gasification we should be seriously reviewing charcoal making and charcoal
gasifiers??

As in utilizing the gasses of pyrolysis produced in the charcoal process??

Mad Max world is just around this corner??

(Mad Max = technical dark age scenario)

Obviously the Americans are no longer listening to reason -- have went on
rampage -- and we must prepare for the worse.

My cane crusher will land in Belize today -- i'm going with strong run -- a
liquid fuel -- and dual fueling diesel -- rum and coconut oil.

Check this out:

http://www.fao.org/docrep/T4470E/t4470e08.htm

How to dual fuel a diesel with rum instead of producer gas!!

Besides -- you can't drink producer gas and forget all the problems
besetting this planet right now -- you can with rum!!

Peter / Belize

At 10:02 AM 4/7/2003 -0500, Harmon Seaver wrote:
>On Mon, Apr 07, 2003 at 01:15:11AM -0300, Kevin Chisholm wrote:
>>
>> Oil Politics are exceedingly important to Renewable Energy. The problem is
>> that "oil is one of the greatest bargains of our time", and it is so cheap,
>> in some areas of the World, that it is hardly worth conserving. Low oil
>> prices undercut Renewable Energy Effort. Oil has many hidden subsidies,
>> while Renewables generally stand on their own.
>>
>
> Not to mention the fact that these warmongering criminal lunatics have
>succeeded in creating so much hatred of the US already that the likelihood of
>oil supplies being interrupted is extremely high. And further that the
>likelihood of so many acts of terrorism now being carried out in the US
are so
>extremely high that our economy will never recover. All of which means that
>gasification will become very important to provide heat, lights, and
>transportation in the US and UK.
>
>
>--
>Harmon Seaver
>CyberShamanix
>http://www.cybershamanix.com
>This is America's Darkest Hour
>http://www.oshkoshbygosh.org
>

From jimlucas1020 at HIGHSTREAM.NET Mon Apr 7 11:42:43 2003
From: jimlucas1020 at HIGHSTREAM.NET (Jim Lucas)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:24:23 2004
Subject: ..OT:Re: [GASL] thermal depolymerization
Message-ID: <MON.7.APR.2003.084243.0700.JIMLUCAS1020@HIGHSTREAM.NET>

Mr. Seaver,

Although I am a subscriber to Gasification in a fit of practicality I
realized that gasification as compared to liquid fuel is not too practical.
We have developed an hold a US Patent on a liquid fuel that could replace
fossil diesel fuel; it is a mixture of ethanol and lignin; we call it
Lignol.

Fighting the Oil industry is much like fighting a Bradley Tank with a
peashooter. They currently have cheap oil, a captured market and hold the
economy of the world in their hands. With the US oil companies now have
full access to the second, some say the third, largest oil & gas fields in
the world, Iraq, the prospects of any form of renewable fuels have declined
drastically.

Using data supplied by the US Department of Agriculture, we have been able
to show that there is sufficient corn stover & cobs and wheat straw to
produce sufficient Lignol to replace all the transportation fuels in the US
and export a significant amount.

Gasification requires the energy from the gas produced must be used in close
proximity to the gasifier; whereas, a liquid fuel can be transported by rail
or truck to multiple sites for use.

Renewable energy is the energy of the future. Recent events will most
probably postpone the development of renewable world wide.

James (Jim) L. Lucas
FILTER TECH COMPANY, INC. (FTC)
3950 Via Real #265
Carpinteria CA 93013-1232
Phone: (805) 684-2029 Cell: (805) 750-9694 Fax: (702) 995-4445
Webpage: www.aboutftc.biz

----- Original Message -----
From: "Harmon Seaver" <hseaver@CYBERSHAMANIX.COM>
To: <GASIFICATION@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2003 8:02 AM
Subject: Re: [GASL] ..OT:Re: [GASL] thermal depolymerization

> On Mon, Apr 07, 2003 at 01:15:11AM -0300, Kevin Chisholm wrote:
> >
> > Oil Politics are exceedingly important to Renewable Energy. The problem
is
> > that "oil is one of the greatest bargains of our time", and it is so
cheap,
> > in some areas of the World, that it is hardly worth conserving. Low oil
> > prices undercut Renewable Energy Effort. Oil has many hidden subsidies,
> > while Renewables generally stand on their own.
> >
>
> Not to mention the fact that these warmongering criminal lunatics have
> succeeded in creating so much hatred of the US already that the likelihood
of
> oil supplies being interrupted is extremely high. And further that the
> likelihood of so many acts of terrorism now being carried out in the US
are so
> extremely high that our economy will never recover. All of which means
that
> gasification will become very important to provide heat, lights, and
> transportation in the US and UK.
>
>
> --
> Harmon Seaver
> CyberShamanix
> http://www.cybershamanix.com
> This is America's Darkest Hour
> http://www.oshkoshbygosh.org
>
>

From Sarita19th at AOL.COM Mon Apr 7 11:43:55 2003
From: Sarita19th at AOL.COM (Lewis L. Smith)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:24:23 2004
Subject: Change of EM address
Message-ID: <MON.7.APR.2003.114355.0400.>

to Gasification Discussion Group from Lewis L. Smith

Please note change of my EM address from

< sarita19th@aol.com > to

< mmbtupr@aol.com > . Thanks. End.

From hseaver at CYBERSHAMANIX.COM Mon Apr 7 13:34:18 2003
From: hseaver at CYBERSHAMANIX.COM (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:24:24 2004
Subject: ..OT:Re: [GASL] thermal depolymerization
In-Reply-To: <000c01c2fd1c$55ed93a0$136c9441@D4F0H721>
Message-ID: <MON.7.APR.2003.123418.0500.HSEAVER@CYBERSHAMANIX.COM>

On Mon, Apr 07, 2003 at 08:42:43AM -0700, Jim Lucas wrote:
> Mr. Seaver,
>
> Although I am a subscriber to Gasification in a fit of practicality I
> realized that gasification as compared to liquid fuel is not too practical.
> We have developed an hold a US Patent on a liquid fuel that could replace
> fossil diesel fuel; it is a mixture of ethanol and lignin; we call it
> Lignol.

Sounds interesting.

>
> Fighting the Oil industry is much like fighting a Bradley Tank with a
> peashooter. They currently have cheap oil, a captured market and hold the
> economy of the world in their hands. With the US oil companies now have
> full access to the second, some say the third, largest oil & gas fields in
> the world, Iraq, the prospects of any form of renewable fuels have declined
> drastically.

It remains to be seen how much luck they have maintaining that access. I
doubt the US has the stomach to deal with the sort of constant terrorism that we
see in Israel.

>
> Using data supplied by the US Department of Agriculture, we have been able
> to show that there is sufficient corn stover & cobs and wheat straw to
> produce sufficient Lignol to replace all the transportation fuels in the US
> and export a significant amount.
>

A serious problem with corn stover/cobs is that for one they really need to
be ploughed back into the ground, and for another they are now being fed to
cattle. But the biggest problem is the same as the corn to ethanol one --
totally impossible in a non-subsidized farm economy.
A much more realistic feedstock for both ethanol and lignin is cattails.

> Gasification requires the energy from the gas produced must be used in close
> proximity to the gasifier; whereas, a liquid fuel can be transported by rail
> or truck to multiple sites for use.
>

Yes, it works best in stationary applications. But also I wonder how well
your lignol compares in efficiency both for production and running in a diesel
engine with biodiesel? Of course, we'd have to do the comparison with feedstocks
that aren't so heavily subsidized as corn and soybeans, neither of which is a
realistic feedstock for fuels.

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

From LINVENT at AOL.COM Mon Apr 7 13:35:56 2003
From: LINVENT at AOL.COM (LINVENT@AOL.COM)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:24:24 2004
Subject: ..OT:Re: [GASL] thermal depolymerization
Message-ID: <MON.7.APR.2003.133556.EDT.>

Dear Mr. Murrell,
Others on the list disagree as our energy policies have a direct effect
on economics of gasification or other energy related endeavors. It may be a
bit far field technically, but technical solutions are for naught if the
economics do not justify them.

From FMurrl at AOL.COM Mon Apr 7 13:43:54 2003
From: FMurrl at AOL.COM (FMurrl@AOL.COM)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:24:24 2004
Subject: ..OT:Re: [GASL] thermal depolymerization
Message-ID: <MON.7.APR.2003.134354.EDT.>

In a message dated 4/7/2003 1:35:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, L INVENT
writes:

> Others on the list disagree as our energy policies have a direct effect on
> economics of gasification or other energy related endeavors.

Thanks for your note.

However, it seems clear to me that churlish comments on a technically
oriented reading list are out of place and inappropriate. I am sure that
there are a number of other locations more suited to discussions of personal
views on politics. They have no place on the GASL site, in my opinion.

Sincerely,
Fred Murrell
Bradenton Florida USA

From snkm at BTL.NET Mon Apr 7 14:07:28 2003
From: snkm at BTL.NET (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:24:24 2004
Subject: ..OT:Re: [GASL] thermal depolymerization
Message-ID: <MON.7.APR.2003.120728.0600.SNKM@BTL.NET>

Well put Tom --

Anyone know how to rub sticks together to make fire instead of using a BIC
lighter??

Peter / Belize

At 01:35 PM 4/7/2003 EDT, LINVENT@AOL.COM wrote:
>Dear Mr. Murrell,
> Others on the list disagree as our energy policies have a direct effect
>on economics of gasification or other energy related endeavors. It may be a
>bit far field technically, but technical solutions are for naught if the
>economics do not justify them.
>
>Leland T. Taylor
>President
>Thermogenics Inc.
>7100-F 2nd St. NW Albuquerque, New Mexico USA 87107 Phone: 505-761-5633, fax:
>341-0424, website: thermogenics.com.
>In order to read the compressed files forwarded under AOL, it is necessary to
>download Aladdin's freeware Unstuffit at
>http://www.stuffit.com/expander/index.html
>

From snkm at BTL.NET Mon Apr 7 14:15:24 2003
From: snkm at BTL.NET (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:24:24 2004
Subject: ..OT:Re: [GASL] thermal depolymerization
Message-ID: <MON.7.APR.2003.121524.0600.SNKM@BTL.NET>

>I am sure that
>there are a number of other locations more suited to discussions of personal
>views on politics. They have no place on the GASL site, in my opinion.

Sure is -- go to:

http://www1.iraqwar.ru/?userlang=en

Check any of the top line articles presented -- then look at the comments
that start at the end of each message -- like a bulletin board.

People from all over this planet arguing about this war -- real free for
all -- just like an old time bar room brawl.

Lot's of intelligent comments -- and some Yanks really putting up good
arguments. But no brain dead there -- no quoting from CNN -- etc -- the
real stuff only -- please.

So all on this list that want to see the global I-net in full blown
democratic mode discussing this issue -- find it there!

but tom's point still stands -- we need to know where we are heading before
people will be doing any investing in alternate energy programs.

At 01:43 PM 4/7/2003 EDT, FMurrl@AOL.COM wrote:
>In a message dated 4/7/2003 1:35:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, L INVENT
>writes:
>
>> Others on the list disagree as our energy policies have a direct effect on
>> economics of gasification or other energy related endeavors.
>
>Thanks for your note.
>
>However, it seems clear to me that churlish comments on a technically
>oriented reading list are out of place and inappropriate. I am sure that
>there are a number of other locations more suited to discussions of personal
>views on politics. They have no place on the GASL site, in my opinion.
>
>Sincerely,
>Fred Murrell
>Bradenton Florida USA
>

From kchisholm at CA.INTER.NET Mon Apr 7 14:13:22 2003
From: kchisholm at CA.INTER.NET (Kevin Chisholm)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:24:24 2004
Subject: ..OT:Re: [GASL] thermal depolymerization
Message-ID: <MON.7.APR.2003.151322.0300.KCHISHOLM@CA.INTER.NET>

Dear Fred

You raise two important points:

1: The inappropriateness of churlish comments
2: The influence of Oil Energy Politics on Renewable energy.

Seldom are churlish comments appropriate. However, I would respectfully
suggest that anything which impacts on the gasification aspects of renewable
energy is relevant to this list.

Kindest regards,

Kevin Chisholm
----- Original Message -----
From: <FMurrl@AOL.COM>
To: <GASIFICATION@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2003 2:43 PM
Subject: Re: [GASL] ..OT:Re: [GASL] thermal depolymerization

> In a message dated 4/7/2003 1:35:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, L INVENT
> writes:
>
> > Others on the list disagree as our energy policies have a direct effect
on
> > economics of gasification or other energy related endeavors.
>
> Thanks for your note.
>
> However, it seems clear to me that churlish comments on a technically
> oriented reading list are out of place and inappropriate. I am sure that
> there are a number of other locations more suited to discussions of
personal
> views on politics. They have no place on the GASL site, in my opinion.
>
> Sincerely,
> Fred Murrell
> Bradenton Florida USA

From piolenc at MOZCOM.COM Mon Apr 7 21:45:12 2003
From: piolenc at MOZCOM.COM (Marc de Piolenc)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:24:24 2004
Subject: ..OT:Re: [GASL] thermal depolymerization
Message-ID: <TUE.8.APR.2003.094512.0800.>

Jim Lucas wrote:
>
> Mr. Seaver,
>
> Although I am a subscriber to Gasification in a fit of practicality I
> realized that gasification as compared to liquid fuel is not too practical.
> We have developed and hold a US Patent on a liquid fuel that could replace
> fossil diesel fuel; it is a mixture of ethanol and lignin; we call it
> Lignol.

Neat! Patent number, please?

> Fighting the Oil industry is much like fighting a Bradley Tank with a
> peashooter.

Just a quick correction: the Bradley is not a tank - it's an armored
personnel carrier or APC. Mind you, a peashooter wouldn't make much more
of an impression on it than on an Abrams.

> They currently have cheap oil, a captured market and hold the
> economy of the world in their hands. With the US oil companies now have
> full access to the second, some say the third, largest oil & gas fields in
> the world, Iraq, the prospects of any form of renewable fuels have declined
> drastically.

I don't think that Iraq's oil is going to have much effect. It will have
to be managed for maximum revenue to pay for Iraq's reconstruction, now
estimated to cost five to ten times Iraq's GROSS oil revenue in a good
year, of which there haven't been many lately. If the postwar regime
starts pumping like crazy they will depress the price and defeat their
purpose. Don't expect a considerable drop in producer oil prices until
the cost of de-Saddamizing Iraq has been offset, and maybe not then.

> Using data supplied by the US Department of Agriculture, we have been able
> to show that there is sufficient corn stover & cobs and wheat straw to
> produce sufficient Lignol to replace all the transportation fuels in the US
> and export a significant amount.

Can you provide a pointer to those data, and to the assumptions that you
used in reaching your conclusion? It is, shall we say, rather startling.

Best,
Marc de Piolenc

From kchisholm at CA.INTER.NET Mon Apr 7 23:57:00 2003
From: kchisholm at CA.INTER.NET (Kevin Chisholm)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:24:24 2004
Subject: ..OT:Re: [GASL] thermal depolymerization
Message-ID: <TUE.8.APR.2003.005700.0300.KCHISHOLM@CA.INTER.NET>

Dear Marc
----- Original Message -----
From: "Marc de Piolenc" <piolenc@MOZCOM.COM>
To: <GASIFICATION@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2003 10:45 PM
Subject: Re: [GASL] ..OT:Re: [GASL] thermal depolymerization

...del....
>
> > They currently have cheap oil, a captured market and hold the
> > economy of the world in their hands.

The Iraqis have the oil. It belongs to them. The UN sanctions forced Iraq to
conserve its resources, bu restricting their potential output.

With the US oil companies now have
> > full access to the second, some say the third, largest oil & gas fields
in
> > the world,

No they don't. With all due respect, you have been watching too much CNN,
and are believing the in-bedded Media. They do not have access to the Iraqi
oil. I feel it is unlikely that they will have future access to significant
quantities of Iraqi oil. The country is too big, and feelings are extreme.
This will be the most expensive "free oil" the US ever tried to take.

> Iraq, the prospects of any form of renewable fuels have declined
> > drastically.

See below....
>
> I don't think that Iraq's oil is going to have much effect. It will have
> to be managed for maximum revenue to pay for Iraq's reconstruction,

I am speculating that the original Bush Plan was to:
1: "Shock and Awe" the Iraqi's into rapid submission.
2: Award juicy reconstruction contracts to US Only companies
3: Give an "Oil Management Contract" to someone like Haliburton, who would
produce and sell the oil. The Iraqu government would get say $10/bbl to pay
for the reconstructon, Halliburton would sell oil for $20/bbl and keep the
difference, for splitting among friends.
4: There would be loads of cheap oil to ensure that all teh US SUV operators
could drive to teh polls to vote for Bush.
5: To pay for the reconstruction, they would have to flood the world with
Iraqi Oil, because the price was so low..... the more they produced, teh
cheaper it would sell for.
6: This would then have the wonderful side effect of hurting Iran and Saudi
Arabia big time.
7: Such an unfolding of events would have devastaged Renewable Energy
Prospects for the forseeable future, ie, 10 years.

Since this is not going to happen, there may very well be an excellent
future for Renewables in the near future.

now
> estimated to cost five to ten times Iraq's GROSS oil revenue in a good
> year, of which there haven't been many lately.

Production was constrained by UN Sanctions.

If the postwar regime
> starts pumping like crazy they will depress the price and defeat their
> purpose.

One assumption was that the US was going to be the post-war regime. This is
rather unlikely. Another assumption was that the entire World would would
roll over and allow the US to have its way with it. This also is rather
unlikely. The US seems to have overlooked the claims that others have on the
oil fields.... the Kurds, and the Turks. For various reasons, it appears
very unlikely that oil in quantities to depress world prices will flow from
Iraq in the forseeable future..

Don't expect a considerable drop in producer oil prices until
> the cost of de-Saddamizing Iraq has been offset, and maybe not then.
>
If one Saddam is replaced with another ruler with similar characteristics,
that really doesn't "de-Saddamize" Iraq. It is being glibly assumed that if
the US took over Iraq that things would be better. As I understand it,
solving the Israeli and Palestine Conflict would be childs play in
comparison to the difficulty of solving inter-tribal rivalries in Iraq. The
US has demonstrated little skill at resolution of Mid-East difficulties, and
under Bush, their track record is worse.

Thus, it would appear that there will be a resonably good future for
Renewables.

Kindest regards,

Kevin

Kindest regards,

Kevin

From piolenc at MOZCOM.COM Tue Apr 8 00:57:28 2003
From: piolenc at MOZCOM.COM (Marc de Piolenc)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:24:24 2004
Subject: ..OT:Re: [GASL] thermal depolymerization
Message-ID: <TUE.8.APR.2003.125728.0800.>

You're answering the wrong guy. I didn't post the "cheap oil" message.
In fact, I posted my own refutation of it, based not on an extended
struggle for control of the country - that is clearly not going to
happen - but on the fact that Bush has promised to reconstruct Iraq, at
a cost that will more than absorb any potential oil "profits" for years
to come.

Marc de Piolenc

Kevin Chisholm wrote:
>
> Dear Marc
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Marc de Piolenc" <piolenc@MOZCOM.COM>
> To: <GASIFICATION@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
> Sent: Monday, April 07, 2003 10:45 PM
> Subject: Re: [GASL] ..OT:Re: [GASL] thermal depolymerization
>
> ...del....
> >
> > > They currently have cheap oil, a captured market and hold the
> > > economy of the world in their hands.
>
> The Iraqis have the oil. It belongs to them. The UN sanctions forced Iraq to
> conserve its resources, bu restricting their potential output.
>
> With the US oil companies now have
> > > full access to the second, some say the third, largest oil & gas fields
> in
> > > the world,
>
> No they don't. With all due respect, you have been watching too much CNN,
> and are believing the in-bedded Media. They do not have access to the Iraqi
> oil. I feel it is unlikely that they will have future access to significant
> quantities of Iraqi oil. The country is too big, and feelings are extreme.
> This will be the most expensive "free oil" the US ever tried to take.
>
> > Iraq, the prospects of any form of renewable fuels have declined
> > > drastically.
>
> See below....
> >
> > I don't think that Iraq's oil is going to have much effect. It will have
> > to be managed for maximum revenue to pay for Iraq's reconstruction,
>
> I am speculating that the original Bush Plan was to:
> 1: "Shock and Awe" the Iraqi's into rapid submission.
> 2: Award juicy reconstruction contracts to US Only companies
> 3: Give an "Oil Management Contract" to someone like Haliburton, who would
> produce and sell the oil. The Iraqu government would get say $10/bbl to pay
> for the reconstructon, Halliburton would sell oil for $20/bbl and keep the
> difference, for splitting among friends.
> 4: There would be loads of cheap oil to ensure that all teh US SUV operators
> could drive to teh polls to vote for Bush.
> 5: To pay for the reconstruction, they would have to flood the world with
> Iraqi Oil, because the price was so low..... the more they produced, teh
> cheaper it would sell for.
> 6: This would then have the wonderful side effect of hurting Iran and Saudi
> Arabia big time.
> 7: Such an unfolding of events would have devastaged Renewable Energy
> Prospects for the forseeable future, ie, 10 years.
>
> Since this is not going to happen, there may very well be an excellent
> future for Renewables in the near future.
>
> now
> > estimated to cost five to ten times Iraq's GROSS oil revenue in a good
> > year, of which there haven't been many lately.
>
> Production was constrained by UN Sanctions.
>
> If the postwar regime
> > starts pumping like crazy they will depress the price and defeat their
> > purpose.
>
> One assumption was that the US was going to be the post-war regime. This is
> rather unlikely. Another assumption was that the entire World would would
> roll over and allow the US to have its way with it. This also is rather
> unlikely. The US seems to have overlooked the claims that others have on the
> oil fields.... the Kurds, and the Turks. For various reasons, it appears
> very unlikely that oil in quantities to depress world prices will flow from
> Iraq in the forseeable future..
>
> Don't expect a considerable drop in producer oil prices until
> > the cost of de-Saddamizing Iraq has been offset, and maybe not then.
> >
> If one Saddam is replaced with another ruler with similar characteristics,
> that really doesn't "de-Saddamize" Iraq. It is being glibly assumed that if
> the US took over Iraq that things would be better. As I understand it,
> solving the Israeli and Palestine Conflict would be childs play in
> comparison to the difficulty of solving inter-tribal rivalries in Iraq. The
> US has demonstrated little skill at resolution of Mid-East difficulties, and
> under Bush, their track record is worse.
>
> Thus, it would appear that there will be a resonably good future for
> Renewables.
>
> Kindest regards,
>
> Kevin
>
> Kindest regards,
>
> Kevin

From FMurrl at AOL.COM Tue Apr 8 07:50:21 2003
From: FMurrl at AOL.COM (FMurrl@AOL.COM)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:24:24 2004
Subject: ..OT:Re: [GASL] Recent Mark-up Senate Energy Credits Bill
Message-ID: <TUE.8.APR.2003.075021.EDT.>

I assume that the members of the list (those involved in the US market) have
seen the recent Senate Energy Tax Credits Bill mark-up and Chairman's
Modifications Report. If not, it is certainly worth looking at, as it might
help encourage renewable energy here in the US.

Regards,
Fred Murrell
Biomass Development Co.
Bradenton Florida USA

From arnt at C2I.NET Tue Apr 8 08:52:31 2003
From: arnt at C2I.NET (Arnt Karlsen)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:24:24 2004
Subject: ..OT:Re: [GASL] Recent Mark-up Senate Energy Credits Bill
In-Reply-To: <191.17d345d4.2bc4117d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.8.APR.2003.145231.0200.ARNT@C2I.NET>

On Tue, 8 Apr 2003 07:50:21 EDT,
FMurrl@AOL.COM wrote in message
<191.17d345d4.2bc4117d@aol.com>:

> I assume that the members of the list (those involved in the US
> market) have seen the recent Senate Energy Tax Credits Bill mark-up
> and Chairman's Modifications Report. If not, it is certainly worth
> looking at, as it might help encourage renewable energy here in the
> US.

..url?

> Regards,
> Fred Murrell
> Biomass Development Co.
> Bradenton Florida USA
>

--
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;-)
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
Scenarios always come in sets of three:
best case, worst case, and just in case.

From FMurrl at AOL.COM Tue Apr 8 09:02:33 2003
From: FMurrl at AOL.COM (FMurrl@AOL.COM)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:24:24 2004
Subject: ..OT:Re: [GASL] Recent Mark-up Senate Energy Credits Bill
Message-ID: <TUE.8.APR.2003.090233.EDT.>

In a message dated 4/8/2003 8:53:43 AM Eastern Standard Time, arnt@C2I.NET
writes:

> ..url?
>
The bill can be obtained by going to the US Senate Finance Committee and
looking at clicking on recent actions. Try this url:

<A HREF="http://mygov.governmentguide.com/mygov/webreturn/?url=http://finance.senate.gov">
http://mygov.governmentguide.com/mygov/webreturn/?url=http://finance.senate.gov
</A>

Regards,
Fred Murrell
Biomass Development Company
Bradenton Florida USA

From joacim at YMEX.NET Thu Apr 10 19:55:42 2003
From: joacim at YMEX.NET (Joacim Persson)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:24:24 2004
Subject: another FAO-publication
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20030407093517.00add670@btlmail.btl.net>
Message-ID: <FRI.11.APR.2003.015542.0200.JOACIM@YMEX.NET>

On Mon, 7 Apr 2003, Peter Singfield wrote:

> Check this out:
>
> http://www.fao.org/docrep/T4470E/t4470e08.htm

And:

http://www.fao.org/docrep/t0512e/T0512e00.htm#Contents

"Wood gas as engine fuel", a book from 1986. Probably no spectacular
news in it, but worth linking to perhaps?

Joacim
--
Friheten ?r uppfinningens fader. Freedom is the father of invention. La
libert? est le p?re de l'invention. A liberdade ? o pai da inven??o. La
libert? ? il padre dell'invenzione. Freiheit ist der Vater der Erfindung.
Frelsi? l?tur naktri konu a? spinna. Vrijstelling is het vader van
vinding. Licentia est abbas reperio. Vapaus on is?lt? keksiminen.
Rhyddid ydy'r dadogi chan chrebwyll. Svoboda - mat' izobretatel'nosti.
Libertatea este parintele inventivitatii.

From luizmagri at YAHOO.COM Thu Apr 10 20:20:25 2003
From: luizmagri at YAHOO.COM (Luiz Alberto Magri)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:24:24 2004
Subject: another FAO-publication
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0304110149080.1335-100000@trix.ixum>
Message-ID: <THU.10.APR.2003.172025.0700.LUIZMAGRI@YAHOO.COM>

Joacim,

"A liberdade é a mãe da invenção".

(Don´t know if the accents will work properly in
everybodie´s computers).

Should be similar in French/Italian I guess. Quite
difficult sorts of language, I know.

Luiz Magri
São Paulo

--- Joacim Persson <joacim@YMEX.NET> wrote:
> On Mon, 7 Apr 2003, Peter Singfield wrote:
>
> > Check this out:
> >
> > http://www.fao.org/docrep/T4470E/t4470e08.htm
>
> And:
>
>
http://www.fao.org/docrep/t0512e/T0512e00.htm#Contents
>
> "Wood gas as engine fuel", a book from 1986.
> Probably no spectacular
> news in it, but worth linking to perhaps?
>
> Joacim
> --
> Friheten är uppfinningens fader. Freedom is the
> father of invention. La
> liberté est le père de l'invention. A liberdade é o
> pai da invenção. La
> libertà è il padre dell'invenzione. Freiheit ist
> der Vater der Erfindung.
> Frelsið látur naktri konu að spinna. Vrijstelling
> is het vader van
> vinding. Licentia est abbas reperio. Vapaus on
> isältä keksiminen.
> Rhyddid ydy'r dadogi chan chrebwyll. Svoboda - mat'
> izobretatel'nosti.
> Libertatea este parintele inventivitatii.

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more
http://tax.yahoo.com

From arnt at C2I.NET Fri Apr 11 05:26:30 2003
From: arnt at C2I.NET (Arnt Karlsen)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:24:24 2004
Subject: another FAO-publication
In-Reply-To: <20030411002025.53507.qmail@web11701.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.11.APR.2003.112630.0200.ARNT@C2I.NET>

On Thu, 10 Apr 2003 17:20:25 -0700,
Luiz Alberto Magri <luizmagri@YAHOO.COM> wrote in message
<20030411002025.53507.qmail@web11701.mail.yahoo.com>:

> Joacim,
>
> "A liberdade _ a m_e da inven__o".
>
> (Don_t know if the accents will work properly in
> everybodie_s computers).

..lose the wintendo, get a _real_ os that does all those, too:
http://linux.org/dist/ or http://www.distrowatch.com/ etc. ;-)

..yeah, you will have to choose. Some call it freedom. ;-)

> Should be similar in French/Italian I guess. Quite
> difficult sorts of language, I know.
>
> Luiz Magri
> S_o Paulo
>
>
> --- Joacim Persson <joacim@YMEX.NET> wrote:
> > On Mon, 7 Apr 2003, Peter Singfield wrote:
> >
> > > Check this out:
> > >
> > > http://www.fao.org/docrep/T4470E/t4470e08.htm
> >
> > And:
> >
> >
> http://www.fao.org/docrep/t0512e/T0512e00.htm#Contents
> >
> > "Wood gas as engine fuel", a book from 1986.
> > Probably no spectacular
> > news in it, but worth linking to perhaps?
> >
> > Joacim
> > --
> > Friheten _r uppfinningens fader. Freedom is the
> > father of invention. La
> > libert_ est le p_re de l'invention. A liberdade _ o
> > pai da inven__o. La
> > libert_ _ il padre dell'invenzione. Freiheit ist
> > der Vater der Erfindung.
> > Frelsi_ l_tur naktri konu a_ spinna. Vrijstelling
> > is het vader van
> > vinding. Licentia est abbas reperio. Vapaus on
> > is_lt_ keksiminen.
> > Rhyddid ydy'r dadogi chan chrebwyll. Svoboda - mat'
> > izobretatel'nosti.
> > Libertatea este parintele inventivitatii.
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more
> http://tax.yahoo.com
>

--
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;-)
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
Scenarios always come in sets of three:
best case, worst case, and just in case.

From tombreed at ATTBI.COM Sun Apr 13 09:37:37 2003
From: tombreed at ATTBI.COM (Tom Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:24:24 2004
Subject: Bioenergy/Biomass Models
Message-ID: <SUN.13.APR.2003.073737.0600.TOMBREED@ATTBI.COM>

Dr. Thomas B. Reed
1810 Smith Rd., Golden, CO 80401
tombreed@attbi.com; 303 278 0558 Phone; 303 265 9184 Fax
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Miles" <tmiles@trmiles.com>
To: <BIOENERGY@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2003 1:31 PM
Subject: [BIOENERGY] Fw: Bioenergy/Biomass Models

----- Original Message -----
From: Grzegorz Kunikowski
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2003 8:01 AM
Subject: Bioenergy/Biomass Models

Dear Sir/Madame

I have found your e-mail address investigating for any information about
Bioenergy Models.

A Internet browser withdraw me pages from achieved very old discussion
provided by experts in this field. I am very interested in this area and
that's why I have allowed myself to write to you.

I am representing EC Baltic Renewable Energy Centre (EC BREC), Polish
institution dealing with renewable energy in Poland. EC BREC is nominated as
unit responsible for implementing National Renewable Energy Strategy.

Within 5th Framework European Commission's Program EC BREC has been
established Center of Excellence and Competence within renewable energy. The
project is organized by several workpackages assigned into thematic areas.

I am personally engaged into work-package dealing with widely speaking
biomass models. There are some preliminary investigations about biomass
models provided within a team involved into this w-package.

We have found sign of previous discussion about Bioenergy Model. That
discussion was related to models (spreadsheet programs etc.)
socio-economical orientated however I am mostly interested into biomass
resources aspects. From the other hand those aspects - resources, economy,
efficiency etc. are strongly connected and I hope that some models witch
complex approach exist.

I would be very grateful for any kind of information.

Dear Grzegorz Kunikowski:

I am the moderator of the gasification group at
GASIFICATION@listserv.repp.org.

As you probably know, while people speculated on many energy forms during
world war II, over a million vehicles used WoodGas (producer gas). We are
still speculating on future energy forms, but I believe WoodGas will be one
of the most important as fossil fuels price themselves out of the market.
You can read all about WoodGas at www.woodgas.com or join the GASIFICATION
FORUM at GASIFICATION@Listserve.repp.org.

Good hunting....

TOM REED GASIFICATION MODERATOR

...............

From PletkaRJ at BV.COM Thu Apr 17 00:32:49 2003
From: PletkaRJ at BV.COM (Pletka, Ryan J.)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:24:24 2004
Subject: 100 MW Hydro-Quebec Biomass RFP
Message-ID: <WED.16.APR.2003.233249.0500.PLETKARJ@BV.COM>

You don't see these very often. RFP for 100 MW of biomass power.

Regards,
Ryan

Ryan Pletka
Renewable Energy Project Manager
Black & Veatch Energy Services Group
11401 Lamar / Overland Park, KS 66211 USA
913-458-8222

---------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
Hydro-Quebec Distribution issues a call for tenders to purchase 100 MW of
biomass power

Apr 15, 2003 - Canada NewsWire
MONTREAL, Apr 15, 2003 (CNW Telbec via COMTEX) -- Hydro-Quebec Distribution
is today issuing a call for tenders in order to meet the long-term
electricity needs of its Quebec customer base. The call for tenders is for
100 MW of firm capacity on an annual basis. The electricity must be
generated by a Quebec-based power station where at least 75% of the input is
from biomass.

Deliveries may start between June 1, 2005, and October 1, 2008. The
contracts may vary from 15 to 20 years and must be approved by the Regie de
l'energie (Quebec energy board). Hydro-Quebec Distribution will seek the
project combination offering the lowest cost.

The call for tenders is open to all bidders and all commercially recognized
generation technologies. Bids must be for power generated from new
facilities.

The schedule for this call for tenders is as follows:

- Pre-bid conference May 13, 2003

- Deadline for the submission of bids October 15, 2003

Hydro-Quebec Distribution has mandated Samson Belair/Deloitte & Touche to
act as its official representative and to provide support in the bidding
process and in the analysis of the bids received.

The Call for Tenders Document, the Pre-bid Conference Registration Form, the
Call for Tenders Registration Form and the Bid Form are available on the
Hydro-Quebec Web site:

http://www.hydroquebec.com/distribution/en/marchequebecois

VIEW ADDITIONAL COMPANY-SPECIFIC INFORMATION:
http://www.newswire.ca/cgi-bin/inquiry.cgi?OKEY=66800

CONTACT: For further information: Hydro-Quebec - Media and Emergency

Communication Team, Marc-Brian Chamberland,

(chamberland.marc.brian(at)hydro.qc.ca), (514) 289-2209,

http://www.hydroquebec.com/media

From snkm at BTL.NET Fri Apr 18 10:10:11 2003
From: snkm at BTL.NET (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:24:24 2004
Subject: Thermal depolymerization
Message-ID: <FRI.18.APR.2003.081011.0600.SNKM@BTL.NET>

Good article on Thermal depolymerization

http://www.discover.com/may_03/gthere.html?article=featoil.html

Peter / Belize

From tmiles at TRMILES.COM Tue Apr 22 13:03:03 2003
From: tmiles at TRMILES.COM (Tom Miles)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:24:24 2004
Subject: High Temperature Refuse Gasification
Message-ID: <TUE.22.APR.2003.100303.0700.TMILES@TRMILES.COM>

Life Energy Technology Holdings, Inc. http://www.le-th.com/ is promoting a 5 MWe (25 MWth) refuse gasifier directly coupled to a hot gas turbine-generator. The reactor is a "biosphere" that heats the refuse to 2100 C. The process flow and photos can be found on their web site.

I've been sceptical of the ability to fire a gas turbine with the normal concentration of alkali and chlorides that you find in refuse (or wood) without gas cleaning. The developer contends that by gasifying the refuse at 2100C and building the turbine blades out of titanium and coating them "microcrystalline ceramic" solves operational problems.

Please look at the website and comment.

Tom Miles

From kchisholm at CA.INTER.NET Tue Apr 22 14:41:50 2003
From: kchisholm at CA.INTER.NET (Kevin Chisholm)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:24:24 2004
Subject: High Temperature Refuse Gasification
Message-ID: <TUE.22.APR.2003.154150.0300.KCHISHOLM@CA.INTER.NET>

Dear Tom
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Miles" <tmiles@TRMILES.COM>
To: <GASIFICATION@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2003 2:03 PM
Subject: [GASL] High Temperature Refuse Gasification

>Life Energy Technology Holdings, Inc. http://www.le-th.com/ is promoting a
5 MWe (25 MWth) refuse gasifier directly coupled to a hot gas
turbine-generator. The reactor is a "biosphere" that heats the refuse to
2100 C. The process flow and photos can be found on their web site.

I couldn't see where they claimed 2100 C, and I couldn't get much of an idea
about the technical merits of the system. The web site abounds with
information of a nature that would be given to Investors, but I could not
find much of substance to enable a valid positive evaluation.

>I've been sceptical of the ability to fire a gas turbine with the normal
concentration of alkali and chlorides that you find in refuse (or wood)
without gas cleaning. The developer contends that by gasifying the refuse at
2100C and building the turbine blades out of titanium and coating them
"microcrystalline ceramic" solves operational problems.
> Please look at the website and comment.

I am a bit concerned about them being able to get 1800 C in a MSW reactor
without air. However, if they did get it, then there would be a concern
about producing a slag rather than a pozzolanic ash.

I am also converned that the write-up seems to have been done by a Stock
Promoter, rather than a technically competent person.

I don't know much about modern metallurgy, but if I had an interest in the
Project, I would check out whether ceramic coated titanium turbine blades
are technically adequate for the job claimed. At such high temperatures, I
understand nothing will work without blade cooling, and there is no mention
of blade cooling.

My overall impression is that while there insufficient information to
support the project, there would seem to be enough loose ends to justify
significant caution.

Kindest regards,

Kevin

From jaturnbu at IX.NETCOM.COM Tue Apr 22 20:31:04 2003
From: jaturnbu at IX.NETCOM.COM (Jane Turnbull)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:24:24 2004
Subject: High Temperature Refuse Gasification
In-Reply-To: <000b01c308ff$1d376c40$919a0a40@kevin>
Message-ID: <TUE.22.APR.2003.173104.0700.JATURNBU@IX.NETCOM.COM>

on 4/22/03 11:41 AM, Kevin Chisholm at kchisholm@ca.inter.net wrote:

> I am a bit concerned about them being able to get 1800 C in a MSW reactor
> without air. However, if they did get it, then there would be a concern
> about producing a slag rather than a pozzolanic ash.

I agree with Kevin. I am skeptical about 1800C under any circumstances.
Several years ago we looked at a fluidised bed combuster with a heat
exchanger to fire a gas turbine. Great concept, and the energy efficiency
of the system was projected to be greater than 30%. In fact, there just
aren't reliable alloys able to handle that temperature. The prototype
system actually ran at somewhere around 1200C, and the efficiency was far
from what would be needed to justify the sophisticated engineering.

The vision of the ceramic heat exchanger keeps recurring, and maybe one of
these days it will be real.

Jane Turnbull

From tmiles at TRMILES.COM Tue Apr 22 22:15:11 2003
From: tmiles at TRMILES.COM (Tom Miles)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:24:24 2004
Subject: High Temperature Refuse Gasification
Message-ID: <TUE.22.APR.2003.191511.0700.TMILES@TRMILES.COM>

Marc,

Nobody else has reported problems yet. I wonder it if has to do with the
with the Javascript used on the site.

Tom
----- Original Message -----
From: "Marc de Piolenc" <piolenc@mozcom.com>
To: "Tom Miles" <tmiles@TRMILES.COM>
Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2003 6:25 PM
Subject: Re: [GASL] High Temperature Refuse Gasification

> Tom Miles wrote:
> >
> > Life Energy Technology Holdings, Inc. http://www.le-th.com/
>
> This site freezes Netscape every time I try to load it. Anybody else
> having this problem?
>
> Marc de Piolenc
>
>
>
>

From dknowles at ANTARES.ORG Wed Apr 23 09:53:40 2003
From: dknowles at ANTARES.ORG (Knowles, Dave)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:24:24 2004
Subject: High Temperature Refuse Gasification
Message-ID: <WED.23.APR.2003.095340.0400.DKNOWLES@ANTARES.ORG>

They have a lot of challenges ahead of them.

First, heating refuse to 2100 C in air is next to impossible. In practice,
there is significant moisture and non-combustibles in MSW.
Second, the syngas will have to be cleaned. Even if the coatings protect the
turbine blades from corrosion, there still is the particulate matter which
will cause erosion.
Third, their diagram doesn't give much detail about the gasifier. If is
isn't operated at 15 atm, they will need a compressor to pressurize the
syngas to turbine combustor pressure (with allowances for losses through
control valves and piping). If compression is required, they'll have to
cool the gases, giving up significant heat value.
Fourth: Solar Turbines does not manufacture a 20 MW turbine.
Fifth: Solar Turbines does not presently offer a turbine equipped with
advanced materials, such titanium with crystalline ceramic coatings. They
have been working with USDOE on the development of silicon nitride blades
and vanes, but to my knowledge, have not proceeded to making a commercial
offering yet. I can't imagine that this company is going to modify the
turbine on their own.
Sixth: 5 MW steam condensing turbines are notoriously expensive and
inefficient. That's why you don't see many combined cycle plants below 25 MW
Seventh: The material recovery goals they mention have not been successfully
accomplished at this scale. That's technically and financially.
Finally, given the foregoing, this plant is going to cost a small fortune.
Maybe a big fortune. They appear to be counting on negative cost MSW and
sales of recovered material. Negative cost MSW (and other material,
including agricultural) have a nasty habit of becoming positive cost
material very quickly when separation and preparation costs are added in.
As for material recovery, I don't think they've done their homework. First,
the ash cannot be used in concrete in the US since it hasn't been approved
(see sales of ash from boilers with biomass cofiring). Secondly, the value
of recovered is greatly hindered by its purity.

These aren't the first guys to propose a small scale resource recovery
technology. I know of a half-dozen others who are out looking for VC.

David F. Knowles, P.E.
Sr. Program Manager, Industrial & Utility Sector
Antares Group, Inc.
dknowles@antares.org
301-731-1900 ext 18

-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Miles [mailto:tmiles@TRMILES.COM]
Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2003 1:03 PM
To: GASIFICATION@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG
Subject: [GASL] High Temperature Refuse Gasification

Life Energy Technology Holdings, Inc. http://www.le-th.com/ is promoting a 5
MWe (25 MWth) refuse gasifier directly coupled to a hot gas
turbine-generator. The reactor is a "biosphere" that heats the refuse to
2100 C. The process flow and photos can be found on their web site.

I've been sceptical of the ability to fire a gas turbine with the normal
concentration of alkali and chlorides that you find in refuse (or wood)
without gas cleaning. The developer contends that by gasifying the refuse at
2100C and building the turbine blades out of titanium and coating them
"microcrystalline ceramic" solves operational problems.

Please look at the website and comment.

Tom Miles

From hseaver at CYBERSHAMANIX.COM Wed Apr 23 10:25:40 2003
From: hseaver at CYBERSHAMANIX.COM (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:24:24 2004
Subject: High Temperature Refuse Gasification
In-Reply-To: <006e01c3093e$5e1d80c0$6701a8c0@OFFICE3>
Message-ID: <WED.23.APR.2003.092540.0500.HSEAVER@CYBERSHAMANIX.COM>

I've looked at it, although not every page but a few and don't have any
problem. I'm using a pretty recent copy of mozilla and the latest java plugin,
although I've disabled java itself in mozilla and only allow javascript.

On Tue, Apr 22, 2003 at 07:15:11PM -0700, Tom Miles wrote:
> Marc,
>
> Nobody else has reported problems yet. I wonder it if has to do with the
> with the Javascript used on the site.
>
> Tom
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Marc de Piolenc" <piolenc@mozcom.com>
> To: "Tom Miles" <tmiles@TRMILES.COM>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2003 6:25 PM
> Subject: Re: [GASL] High Temperature Refuse Gasification
>
>
> > Tom Miles wrote:
> > >
> > > Life Energy Technology Holdings, Inc. http://www.le-th.com/
> >
> > This site freezes Netscape every time I try to load it. Anybody else
> > having this problem?
> >
> > Marc de Piolenc
> >
> >
> >
> >

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

From bmjenkins at UCDAVIS.EDU Wed Apr 23 18:44:30 2003
From: bmjenkins at UCDAVIS.EDU (Jenkins)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:24:24 2004
Subject: High Temperature Refuse Gasification
Message-ID: <WED.23.APR.2003.154430.0700.BMJENKINS@UCDAVIS.EDU>

Is there any direct response from Life Energy Technology Holdings, Inc.
regarding the comments made so far?

-------------------------------------------------------***--***-------------------------------------------------------
Bryan M. Jenkins, Professor
Department of Biological and Agricultural Engineering
University of California
One Shields Avenue, Davis, CA 95616-5294
phone: 530 752 1422
fax: 530 752 2640
bmjenkins@ucdavis.edu

From Tk at TKE.DK Thu Apr 24 02:38:39 2003
From: Tk at TKE.DK (Thomas Koch)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:24:24 2004
Subject: High Temperature Refuse Gasification
Message-ID: <THU.24.APR.2003.083839.0200.TK@TKE.DK>

I agree 100 % with the comments from Dave.
I build a 500 kW entrained flow reactor for wood char.
I could reach 1700-1800 oC by preheating the air to 600 oC. More than that was not possible with atm. air. And the heating value of wood char is 2-3 times higher than MSW.

Thomas Koch

----- Original Message -----
From: "Knowles, Dave" <dknowles@ANTARES.ORG>
To: <GASIFICATION@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2003 3:53 PM
Subject: Re: [GASL] High Temperature Refuse Gasification

> They have a lot of challenges ahead of them.
>
> First, heating refuse to 2100 C in air is next to impossible. In practice,
> there is significant moisture and non-combustibles in MSW.
> Second, the syngas will have to be cleaned. Even if the coatings protect the
> turbine blades from corrosion, there still is the particulate matter which
> will cause erosion.
> Third, their diagram doesn't give much detail about the gasifier. If is
> isn't operated at 15 atm, they will need a compressor to pressurize the
> syngas to turbine combustor pressure (with allowances for losses through
> control valves and piping). If compression is required, they'll have to
> cool the gases, giving up significant heat value.
> Fourth: Solar Turbines does not manufacture a 20 MW turbine.
> Fifth: Solar Turbines does not presently offer a turbine equipped with
> advanced materials, such titanium with crystalline ceramic coatings. They
> have been working with USDOE on the development of silicon nitride blades
> and vanes, but to my knowledge, have not proceeded to making a commercial
> offering yet. I can't imagine that this company is going to modify the
> turbine on their own.
> Sixth: 5 MW steam condensing turbines are notoriously expensive and
> inefficient. That's why you don't see many combined cycle plants below 25 MW
> Seventh: The material recovery goals they mention have not been successfully
> accomplished at this scale. That's technically and financially.
> Finally, given the foregoing, this plant is going to cost a small fortune.
> Maybe a big fortune. They appear to be counting on negative cost MSW and
> sales of recovered material. Negative cost MSW (and other material,
> including agricultural) have a nasty habit of becoming positive cost
> material very quickly when separation and preparation costs are added in.
> As for material recovery, I don't think they've done their homework. First,
> the ash cannot be used in concrete in the US since it hasn't been approved
> (see sales of ash from boilers with biomass cofiring). Secondly, the value
> of recovered is greatly hindered by its purity.
>
> These aren't the first guys to propose a small scale resource recovery
> technology. I know of a half-dozen others who are out looking for VC.
>
> David F. Knowles, P.E.
> Sr. Program Manager, Industrial & Utility Sector
> Antares Group, Inc.
> dknowles@antares.org
> 301-731-1900 ext 18
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tom Miles [mailto:tmiles@TRMILES.COM]
> Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2003 1:03 PM
> To: GASIFICATION@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG
> Subject: [GASL] High Temperature Refuse Gasification
>
> Life Energy Technology Holdings, Inc. http://www.le-th.com/ is promoting a 5
> MWe (25 MWth) refuse gasifier directly coupled to a hot gas
> turbine-generator. The reactor is a "biosphere" that heats the refuse to
> 2100 C. The process flow and photos can be found on their web site.
>
> I've been sceptical of the ability to fire a gas turbine with the normal
> concentration of alkali and chlorides that you find in refuse (or wood)
> without gas cleaning. The developer contends that by gasifying the refuse at
> 2100C and building the turbine blades out of titanium and coating them
> "microcrystalline ceramic" solves operational problems.
>
> Please look at the website and comment.
>
> Tom Miles

From tmiles at TRMILES.COM Thu Apr 24 11:01:41 2003
From: tmiles at TRMILES.COM (Tom Miles)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:24:24 2004
Subject: High Temperature Refuse Gasification
Message-ID: <THU.24.APR.2003.110141.0400.TMILES@TRMILES.COM>

Bryan,

The comments have been forwarded to Life Energy Technology Holdings. They
have been invited to join the discussion to respond directly to the group.
So I expect that we will welcome them soon.

Thank you all for your enthusiastic contributions.

Tom Miles

On Wed, 23 Apr 2003 15:44:30 -0700, Jenkins <bmjenkins@UCDAVIS.EDU> wrote:

>Is there any direct response from Life Energy Technology Holdings, Inc.
>regarding the comments made so far?
>
>
>
>-------------------------------------------------------***--***-----------
--------------------------------------------
>Bryan M. Jenkins, Professor
>Department of Biological and Agricultural Engineering
>University of California
>One Shields Avenue, Davis, CA 95616-5294
>phone: 530 752 1422
>fax: 530 752 2640
>bmjenkins@ucdavis.edu

From CAVM at AOL.COM Fri Apr 25 12:02:56 2003
From: CAVM at AOL.COM (Cornelius A. Van Miligen)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:24:24 2004
Subject: GASIFICATION Digest - 23 Apr 2003 to 24 Apr 2003 (#2003-45)
Message-ID: <FRI.25.APR.2003.120256.EDT.>

Thomas Koch writes:

> I build a 500 kW entrained flow reactor for wood char. TK@TKE.DK

Thomas,

Will you tell us more about your system?

Neal Van Milligen
CAVM@AOL.com

BioEnergy Lists: Gasifiers & Gasification

April 2003 Gasification Archive