October 1997 Gasification Archive

For more information to help people develop better stoves for cooking with biomass fuels in developing regions, please see our web site: http://www.bioenergylists.org

From english at adan.kingston.net Wed Oct 1 22:08:30 1997
From: english at adan.kingston.net (*.English)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:39 2004
Subject: Magical Phenomina
Message-ID: <199710020211.WAA22684@adan.kingston.net>

Dear Stovers

I now have the pleasure of doing stove trials under the frosty, star
blanketed, night sky where I benefit from the stoves radiant heat
"losses". One's losses is another"s gain. I am speculatively aware
that the low ambient temperature could be biasing the results. I
don't really care just now, happiness is a stable flame. Oh, I have
made lots of changes to the burner but those are soon likely to be
archived in favour of new variations. Like it or not, you will
eventually be kept informed.

Flames have fascinated people for countless years, but I wonder how
many have witnessed what I saw tonight. The current little burner was
operating with a fairly turbulent swirling flame dancing half way up
the 10cm dia chimney. There is no flame extending from the gasifier
chamber below, it simply ignites as it catches up with the flame
zone.( no bluff body) This zone tends to rise and fall slightly. Not
to infrequently it rises up to the top of the chimney and becomes
detached and the flame is lost, only to be replaced by belching
smoke. At one point, with a 18cm dia chimney placed over the smaller
one the turbulent flame rose to the top of the 10cm dia chimney (
20cm tall) and reformed in the middle of the 18cm dia (an additional
30cm tall) chimney. When doing so it formed a lazy undulating blue
flame sheet covering the cross section of the chimney. It hovered
there rising and falling slightly with bright orange sparks shooting
up from it. There was no yellow flame associated with this wavy
sheet of flame. It resembled a soap film with its lack of depth.
Occasionally it would subside into the turbulent flame in the lower
chimney or rise up and disappear above the larger one. Relit it would
start all over again.

It's splendour rivalled that of the night sky.

Alexir
Alex English
RR 2 Odessa Ontario
Canada K0H 2H0
Tel 1-613-386-1927
Fax 1-613-386-1211
Stoves Web Site http://www1.kingston.net/~english/Stoves.html

From elk at arcc.or.ke Thu Oct 2 08:21:20 1997
From: elk at arcc.or.ke (E. L. Karstad)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:39 2004
Subject: 2can stove- answers & further trials.
Message-ID: <v01510102b0594da890f4@[199.2.222.132]>

Commercialisation: a few questions from Ronal-

The stove has a turndown control of slightly better than 3 assuming a gas
burner is rated 5. At the beginning and the end of the burn (10% - 70% -
20%) the turndown is probably rated at 2, leaving 70% of the burn time with
the best control.

Basing a charcoal production payback period calculation (112 days) on a
single use per day is indeed on the conservative side, though it has been
pointed out by users that with the typically long burn time of between one
and a half and two hours, once maize meal then stew has been cooked,
followed by tea, there is still time to cook tomorrow's breakfast of
chapatis (pancake) in a frying pan before haresting the charcoal. Due to
the long burning time and the fact that it is impractical to quench the
wood fuel in mid pyrolisis in order to relight later, this stove could be
used three times daily for a large family of maybe 8 individuals, or once
a day for a smaller family of 4. A very good use for the residual heat
beyond what is need for cooking food would be for boiling and sterilising
drinking water.

Further 2can trials:

On one stove I've increased the distance between the outer and inner skins
to 6 cm from the original 2cm (measured at 2ndary air gap, or 'waist') in
an effort to improve insulative properties. This had the effect of reducing
flame holding- possibly due to overheating the secondary air (and hence
attenuating oxygen density). The turnover rate of secondary air would be
reduced by increasing the volume of the space between the inner and outer
skins of the stove (increased dwell time) and secondary air temperature
would be higher than in the original stove's configuation. That's my
theory......?

A new design:

I have designed a stove that is an overall better performer on both FOM
(ave .95) and charcoal production (ave. 21%), but this stove is difficult
to produce and would probably not be received so well in the marketplace
due to higher prodcution costs. The design is based on a single 25 liter
paint can with an extension to the top (wider end) to accommodate an
embedded 4 liter pot:

Turn a 25 liter paint canupside down and cut out the bottom; 28 cm dia.
top, 30 cm dia. bottom. Add 20 cm high extension, maintaining a 30 cm dia.
The 'can is now 56 cm high.

Insert a double walled funnel (the pyrolisis cell) into bottom of can: 21
cm outside dia.at bottom, 29 cm outside dia. at top and 1 cm gap between
inner and outer walls of the funnel. Inner funnel is 3 cm shorter than the
outer cone wall at the top. The outer wall of the cone meets flush with the
paint can wall 26 cm up from the bottom of the can.

This double walled pyrolisis cell has a grate 2 cm from the bottom, and the
whole unit is affixed to the original can lid which is now used as the
bottom of the stove, held tightly in place using the original tabs around
the rim.

Primary air is controlled by the usual 2can sliding gate affixed to the
bottom 'lid' beneath the stove. Secondary air enters via 80 7mm holes
punched through the bottom lid' allowing air into the gap between the inner
and outer walls of the pyrolisis cell.

The combusion of pyrolisis gasses occurs at the lip of the inner pyrolisis
cell wall.

The 'splayed out' arrangement of wood in the slightly funnel shaped
pyrolisis cell seems to make lighting easier, and allows for an even burn
despite the fact that the cell walls aren't perforated.

Exhaust gasses escape the top of the stove via 16 5mm wide by 3cm deep
angle-grinder cuts made vertically into the top of the stove.

Fuel load is reduced in this stove to 3 kg, burning time is typically
between 60 and 90 minutes, taking 10 minutes to bring 2.8 litres of water
(initially 19'C.) to boil.

Turndown ratio is between 3 & 4, flame holding very good, wind resistance
excellent.

The amount of metal in this stove is less than the 2can as pictured in
Alex's website.

I'm sure that with practise, a F.O.M. of over 1 can be consistantly obtained.

I've sent a drawing to Alex for posting on the stover's website.

Comments? Maybe this is a better stove than the 2can for public use.....

All for now- back to the shop, where I'm making a 2bucket stove with a very
narrow waist.

elk

_____________________________
Elsen Karstad
P.O Box 24371 Nairobi, Kenya
Tel:254 2 884437
E-mail: elk@arcc.or.ke
______________________________

From english at adan.kingston.net Thu Oct 2 21:49:03 1997
From: english at adan.kingston.net (*.English)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:39 2004
Subject: elk stove drawing
Message-ID: <199710030151.VAA23551@adan.kingston.net>

Dear Stovers
Elsen's latest stove drawing is posted at
http://www1.kingston.net/~english/Elsen2.htm

Remco deJong showed me that by saving black and white images as
*.gif files they are made very small. So notice how fast it loads.
It is only 4.6KB. Which may be small enough for general distribution
to the list, as an attachment to a regular email message. Some of the
members don't have access to the web. They could receive this type of
drawing and display it in a simple program like 'Paint'.

Moderators?

Alex English
RR 2 Odessa Ontario
Canada K0H 2H0
Tel 1-613-386-1927
Fax 1-613-386-1211
Stoves Web Site http://www1.kingston.net/~english/Stoves.html

From REEDTB at compuserve.com Fri Oct 3 09:42:13 1997
From: REEDTB at compuserve.com (Thomas Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:39 2004
Subject: stoves-digest V1 #289
Message-ID: <199710030944_MC2-22A6-AC60@compuserve.com>

Thomas B. Reed; 303 278 0558 V; ReedTB@Compuserve.Com;
Colorado School of Mines & The Biomass Energy (non-profit)Foundation
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Dear Alex:

I envy you your experiments under the stars. Isn't it amazing that after
20,000 years of burning wood for cooking and after 200 years of burning gas
in various modes, that there can be anything new - and simple?

Looking forward to all your new configurations. Thanks again for the
PICTURES on your website -

Your fan, TOM REED

From REEDTB at compuserve.com Fri Oct 3 09:41:51 1997
From: REEDTB at compuserve.com (Thomas Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:39 2004
Subject: 2can stove- answers & further trials.
Message-ID: <199710030944_MC2-22A6-AC58@compuserve.com>

Thomas B. Reed; 303 278 0558 V; ReedTB@Compuserve.Com;
Colorado School of Mines & The Biomass Energy (non-profit)Foundation
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dear Elson:

How exciting your work is and I am enjoying every minute of it -
vicariously. I think there is still important work to be done on
insulation and insulating casting materials, but that can wait until we get
the principles correct.

WWII gasifiers were notorious for being easily re-lit for many hours after
shutdown (by cutting off air), so maybe a very well insulated larger stove
would re-light in the same fashion. If not, the problem in the inverted
downdraft is that you aren't quite sure where to put the match for
relighting since the un-burned wood is buried.

1) You could carefully remove the charcoal down to the wood level, then
relight

2) You could dump the whole charge out and easily sort unburned from
burned.

I am sure in practice that the housewife will be able to judge how long she
needs to cook and can add fuel accordingly. Maybe for shorter than maximum
times she can add rocks on the grate before putting in the fuel. You could
have a calibration on the outer can showing how deep a rock bed was needed
for shorter times.

Onward! TOM REED

From CKEZAR34 at aol.com Sat Oct 4 09:05:22 1997
From: CKEZAR34 at aol.com (CKEZAR34@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:39 2004
Subject: Sets of Stoves
Message-ID: <971004090759_979371389@emout04.mail.aol.com>

I have been watching from the sidelines and have a single contribution:

As simple stove-using families improve there lot there should be something
beyond a first generation stove. With many of the same features, but either
bigger or easier to use or able to make more charcoal, if that market seems
to work.
The assumption underlying the design is too static - "nothing in the user
groups will change" - is what I interpret as the assumption.
Additional stoves can be more complicated, have the ability to burn
different kinds of fuel, be convertible from charcoal making to non, wood
burning outside the living area to charcoal inside. People might like to say
I can cook three meals for the day in the morning and have the rest of the
day to work at other things.
Fires also give light for reading - how about a stove that gives more light
or non flickering light and makes charcoal and is convertable. Or a
continuous (hours) light making stove that also makes charcoal. Or one that
can have added features as the technology is better understood by the local
manufactures. Or one that allows for roasting or baking.

Just some thoughts - - thanks CA Kezar

From tmiles at teleport.com Sun Oct 5 01:50:35 1997
From: tmiles at teleport.com (Tom Miles)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:39 2004
Subject: BOUNCE bioenergy@crest.org: Non-member submission from ["Rod Munn" <rmunn@glinx.com>]
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971004225131.009a3c30@mail.teleport.com>

From: "Rod Munn" <rmunn@glinx.com>
To: <bioenergy@crest.org>
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 23:57:04 -0300

Would you be able to direct me to a site where I can obtain information on
an efficient domestic sawdust stove/furnace.
Rod

From owner-bioenergy at crest.org Sun Oct 5 01:50:19 1997
From: owner-bioenergy at crest.org (by way of Tom Miles <tmiles@teleport.com>)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:39 2004
Subject: BOUNCE bioenergy@crest.org: Non-member submission from ["Rod Munn" <rmunn@glinx.com>]
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971004225229.009a14f0@mail.teleport.com>

>From bioenergy-owner@crest.org Sat Oct 4 22:38:32 1997
Received: from tim.glinx.com (tim.glinx.com [142.176.48.17]) by
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From: "Rod Munn" <rmunn@glinx.com>
To: <bioenergy@crest.org>
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 23:57:04 -0300
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Would you be able to direct me to a site where I can obtain information on
an efficient domestic sawdust stove/furnace.
Rod

From MAILER-DAEMON at crest.org Mon Oct 6 08:43:39 1997
From: MAILER-DAEMON at crest.org (Mail Delivery Subsystem)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:39 2004
Subject: Alex English on "Enlightnement"
Message-ID: <v01540b01b05e8ca644fc@[204.133.251.12]>

>From Ron: The original message was received by CREST at Sun, 5 Oct 1997
21:40:38 -0400. I received this from CREST rather than it going directly
to everyone. I believe this was caused by a new set of CREST procedures
for us created after another CREST list generated thousands of garbage
messages to everyone on the list. Although some messages may get this
treatment for unknown reasons, I can assure you this is better than
periodically getting thousands. Ron

>From Alex:

Dear Stovers
Since the failure of the venturi burner at the university I have kept
telling myself, "there are no such things as failures, this will lead
to something positive." Well I can finally report that I have learned
a bit more about what makes the V- burner work, or not.

Unlike the stove designs that Elsen, Ron and Tom have used, the
venturi burner separates the draft generated in the pyrolysis cell
(P-cell) from the draft generated in the V- burner/ chimney/
combustion chamber. Most of the draft in the V- burner is spent
drawing in the secondary air, leaving very little draw on the
pyrolysis cell. When running tests with the burner ( with 10cm tall
chimney/ combustion chamber) sitting right on top of the cell, a
small hole at the top of the P-cell will leak smoke. In this mode the
burner has trouble maintaining a steady flame. With the burner 60cm
above the P-cell , on top of a 5 cm diameter pipe, the same hole will
suck air, and the burner operates very reliably, with or without the
bluff body. This pipe/ smoke chimney puts a stable negative pressure
on the P-cell and a slight relative positive pressure on the bottom
of the v-burner. The result is a fairly dramatic differences in
performance, some of which I am still puzzling about. With out the
smoke chimney the P-cell gas production is erratic and insensitive to
primary air adjustments, due I think, to its lack of height.
Without the smoke chimney, with the burner right on top of the
P-cell, the burner is frequently needing to be relit and cannot
operate at all with the bluff body.
All this appears to suggest a push-pull dynamic operating in both
the P-cell and the V-burner.

Another experiment worth mentioning is the double venturi.
I had reasonable success creating a stable fuel rich flame with one
"secondary" air v-burner and "clean" it up in another "tertiary"
one, which has a larger throat diameter, 25cm above.

Still Flickering, Alex

PS: Thanks Brian, for helping to sort this puzzle out.
Alex English
RR 2 Odessa Ontario
Canada K0H 2H0
Tel 1-613-386-1927
Fax 1-613-386-1211
Stoves Web Site http://www1.kingston.net/~english/Stoves.html

From CAMPBELLDB at cdm.com Wed Oct 8 11:10:12 1997
From: CAMPBELLDB at cdm.com (Dan Campbell)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:39 2004
Subject: Fwd: Smokeless or Improved Stove Programme in Damascus
Message-ID: <9710081508.AA07517@cdm.com>

To: arinet
Subject: Fwd: Smokeless or Improved Stove Programme in Damascus
From: "Dan Campbell" <CAMPBELLDB>
Date: 08 Oct 97 11:02:57
Cc: arinet2

Dear Colleagues:

Enclosed is a request from UNICEF/Damascus seeking information on improved or
smokeless stove programs using olive oil residuals as fuel.

If you have information or contacts on this issue, please respond directly to
T.V. Luong at UNICEF/New York.

Her email is: tvluong@hqfaus01.unicef.org

Thanks,
Dan Campbell, EHP
www.access.digex.net/~ehp

To: campbelldb@cdm.com,hafnercr@cdm.com,billigp@cdm.org,perezea@cdm.com
Subject: Smokeless or Improved Stove Programme
From: "T. V. Luong" <tvluong@hqfaus01.unicef.org>
Date: 08 Oct 97 10:10:33
Cc: jqian@hqfaus01.unicef.org,(JingJing,Qian)

Dear colleagues,

We received request from our Damascus office to provide them
literature and information on smokeless or improved stove
programme.

UNICEF Damascus is working in remote rural villages and suburban
slums on baby home initiatives. It would be appropriate to
benefit heating(especially during winter) and cooking from the
improved stove as the common local customs of using the residual
of olive oil processing as fuel for house stoves.

We would appreciate it if you could share with us the materials
that you have in connection with the above issue.

With best regards,

TV

From larcon at sni.net Sun Oct 12 19:36:32 1997
From: larcon at sni.net (Ronal W. Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:39 2004
Subject: Sets of Stoves (message from C. Kezar)
Message-ID: <v01540b05b0670d3303e1@[204.133.251.32]>

Stovers: I have been negligent in making stove comments recently as I have
been busy with an intervention before our Public Utility Commission and
proposal writing for Kaffa (Ethiopia). I won't get further into these - but
would love to hear off-list from anyone interested in either of these
topics.

Last week I attended the local "down-link" of President Clinton's
national forum on global warming. I was encouraged by President Clinton's
knowledge of the issue and obvious conclusion that this was a serious
issue. It seems that we will do better than previously in Kyoto on this
topic - but still not up to what European countries have already done.
This relates to this stoves list both through the displacement of fossil
fuels and the reduced emissions of CO, methane or other global warming
gases. Let's pull for soething positive for improved stoves coming out of
Kyoto.

Now, some comments on Chuck's message from a week ago:

(Kezar):
>I have been watching from the sidelines and have a single contribution:
>
>As simple stove-using families improve their lot there should be something
>beyond a first generation stove. With many of the same features, but either
>bigger or easier to use or able to make more charcoal, if that market seems
>to work.

(RWL): The problem with "bigger" is mainly one of expense, as we are
competing with 3-stone stoves that are free. However, as you point out, a
stove that makes money for the charcoal maker, might in fact be over-used.
Is this good? I think it is generally not, if no productive use is made of
the energy.

>The assumption underlying the design is too static - "nothing in the user
>groups will change" - is what I interpret as the assumption.

(RWL): I haven't heard anyone make this assumption. I certainly predict
lots of future change in all kinds of stoves - but especially of
charcoal-making stoves.

>Additional stoves can be more complicated,

(RWL): I agree. Just as we see many different types of
non-charcoal-making wood-burning stoves today. We are just at the
beginning of charcoal-making stove development (I hope).

> have the ability to burn
>different kinds of fuel,

(RWL): This is going to be a good trick, if it can be done. Very large
fuel doesn't look possible in any charcoal-making cook stove. Small fuel
(leaves, twigs, etc) may be possible in small "semi-sealed" cans, but the
carbonized material will then have to be turned into briquettes - an extra
step that may not be well accepted by some users.

> be convertible from charcoal making to non,

(RWL): This certainly needs more work. However, I don't believe we still
understand the charcoal-making stove quite well enough to concentrate on
adding such features. I don't see much advantage to using wood without
making charcoal. However, maybe there will be additions to allow using
smaller material.
The same stove for using the charcoal also doesn't appear obvious -
but this part should eventually be worked out. We are not talking about a
major expense here. Most charcoal burners are quite cheap, and hopefully a
small addition to a charcoal-making stove can be cheaper still.

> wood
>burning outside the living area to charcoal inside.

(RWL): A charcoal-making stove should be less polluting that a
charcoal-burner. This needs considerable proof. But many societies do
like cooking outside and that should be possible with lots of stoves.

> People might like to say
>I can cook three meals for the day in the morning and have the rest of the
>day to work at other things.

(RWL): The type of stove will presumably have to be introduced at first
that makes the minimum change in existing cooking practice. My experience
is that the larger the stove, the harder to make it work well. But Elsen
has shown that a 20 liter size works well - this is a pretty large size.

>Fires also give light for reading - how about a stove that gives more light
>or non flickering light and makes charcoal and is convertable. Or a
>continuous (hours) light making stove that also makes charcoal.

(RWL): This is a great topic. Perhaps we need a cheap, long-lived
transparent (or translucent) material for a window in the combustion (not
pyrolysis) section. Mica used to be used, but something better is probably
available. Alternatively, perhaps some pyrolysis gas could be shunted off
for use with a gas mantle. Most such systems use gas under pressure - and
so here, there needs to be enough draft to draw the right amount of gas and
(secondary) air in - not an obviously trivial task.
I have also wondered whether the "limelight" approach used for
early cinemas might somehow be possible.

Or one that
>can have added features as the technology is better understood by the local
>manufactures. Or one that allows for roasting or baking.
>
>Just some thoughts - - thanks CA Kezar

(RWL): Certainly researchers should look for "added features".. A
roaster/baker seems like one of the first such.

What we need most are more researchers like Elsen and Alex, and more
recently Stephen Allen. Lots more room is around for innovations. Chuck
- thanks for reminding us of the room for new ideas.

Regards Ron

Ronal W. Larson, PhD
21547 Mountsfield Dr.
Golden, CO 80401, USA
303/526-9629; FAX same with warning
larcon@sni.net

From larcon at sni.net Mon Oct 13 10:10:13 1997
From: larcon at sni.net (Ronal W. Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:39 2004
Subject: chambers gas range
Message-ID: <v01540b00b0671477eebf@[204.133.251.11]>

Stoves:
Help - This came in to me personally - and I know nothing of this
topic. Anyone?
Thanks Ron

>From: Paula3384@aol.com
>Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 16:49:55 -0400 (EDT)
>To: larcon@sni.net
>Subject: chambers gas range
>
>by any chance do you still have your chambers gas range for sale? I'm buying
>a house in Corpus Christi, TX and am looking to purchase one. They are
>wonderful. Please let me know the price, condition, etc.
>
>Thanks,

Ronal W. Larson, PhD
21547 Mountsfield Dr.
Golden, CO 80401, USA
303/526-9629; FAX same with warning
larcon@sni.net

From ccates at sfasu.edu Mon Oct 13 17:41:58 1997
From: ccates at sfasu.edu (Charles R. Cates)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:39 2004
Subject: antique cook range
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971013220754.006763c8@titan.sfasu.edu>

My wife (jackie) wants me to restore a stove to use in Ennis,Montana; the
stove is a cooking range "Mayflower"by Wehrle co. Newark, Ohio patent
1914.The stove is castiron,I would appreciate any information regarding
possible sources of parts,(old foundries that might have made stove
parts),how to weld parts I cannot find (Oxy acetylene?,MIG?,what type wire
or rod to use?).
Any other information would also be much appreciated.
thanks Charlie Cates

From elk at arcc.or.ke Tue Oct 14 06:48:22 1997
From: elk at arcc.or.ke (E. L. Karstad)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:39 2004
Subject: Still Here
Message-ID: <v01510100b068feb3fd7f@[199.2.222.134]>

Stovers;

Development work has slowed down and more attention is being paid to
production and getting a few 2can stoves out into the field. I've three
stoves in daily use by members of staff, and one has been supplied to the
(local) Intermediate Tehnology Group with Dr. Kirk Smith who's in town with
grad student.

The feedback to date is very positive, though wood is often a problem to
acquire so close to Nairobi.

Dr. Smith toured my 'facilities' and was briefed on the stove's evolution -
there's plenty of tested & discarded stoves to see- he was also shown the
charcoal briquetter in operation salvaging the dicarded 'fines' from
vendor's sites. That's currently producing 100 kg per day & providing a
reasonable income for 2 men & their dependents (est. 16 people in all!).

I'd still appreciate input on alternative binders, as 8% cement as binder
produces a briquette that's too soft for transporting any distance over
Kenya's cratered roads. I'll try clay- one member of staff reckons that
clay dug up from termite mounds should work well.....

Has anyone built a 2can or 1can from my plans on Alex's website yet? I'd
really like to get some results on emmission tests & help in improvements.

Don't know if photos would be of any help, but I've a 'Snappy' now & can
digitize photos for the website if required.

All for now;

elk

_____________________________
Elsen Karstad
P.O Box 24371 Nairobi, Kenya
Tel:254 2 884437
E-mail: elk@arcc.or.ke
______________________________

From IPALary at aol.com Tue Oct 14 12:14:28 1997
From: IPALary at aol.com (IPALary@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:39 2004
Subject: Chambers Gas Stoves
Message-ID: <971014121541_-361097449@emout19.mail.aol.com>

I saw an e-mail to you regarding parts for Chambers stoves. I have one and
am interested in finding any source for parts that exists. If you have any
information, I would appreciate it. Thanks for your help.

L. Sage

From english at adan.kingston.net Tue Oct 14 21:48:24 1997
From: english at adan.kingston.net (*.English)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:39 2004
Subject: Still Here
In-Reply-To: <v01510100b068feb3fd7f@[199.2.222.134]>
Message-ID: <199710150145.VAA10246@adan.kingston.net>

Dear Elsen and all.

I'm glad to know that you are "still here".
I wish I had the energy to run out and build carbon copies of your
stoves and test them, but... that a side, you want someone with
standardized protocol to do it.

Does Dr. Smith plan to test yours?

I hope that the testing of my impractical test stove at the
university will shed some light on the options for improvement.
If time allows we may make modifications, compromises which sacrifice
emissions performance, in favour of practicality. (see the new web
posting at http://www1.kingston.net/~english/Queens.htm )

Elsen, it may take a lot longer to improve on what you already have,
than it has taken you so far.
Alex English
RR 2 Odessa Ontario
Canada K0H 2H0
Tel 1-613-386-1927
Fax 1-613-386-1211
Stoves Web Site http://www1.kingston.net/~english/Stoves.html

From icantoo at connriver.net Wed Oct 15 06:58:21 1997
From: icantoo at connriver.net (Regan Pride)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:39 2004
Subject: Chambers Gas Stoves
In-Reply-To: <971014121541_-361097449@emout19.mail.aol.com>
Message-ID: <3444A2D0.270@connriver.net>

Sorry, I don't have any parts for Chambers stoves.

R. Pride

IPALary@aol.com wrote:
>
> I saw an e-mail to you regarding parts for Chambers stoves. I have one and
> am interested in finding any source for parts that exists. If you have any
> information, I would appreciate it. Thanks for your help.
>
> L. Sage

From REEDTB at compuserve.com Wed Oct 15 12:34:57 1997
From: REEDTB at compuserve.com (Thomas Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:39 2004
Subject: Natural or "mini forced" convection
Message-ID: <199710151234_MC2-23FD-85C1@compuserve.com>

Thomas B. Reed; 303 278 0558 V; ReedTB@Compuserve.Com;
Colorado School of Mines & The Biomass Energy (non-profit)Foundation
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dear Alex:

I agree with your analysis of the Venturi (and other) burner problem and
solution.

It is useful to draw a graph of pressure vs height, starting with zero
pressure of incoming air, going negative above the pyrolysis zone, negative
or positive going into the burner, negative in the venturi, back to zero at
the cooking pot. I have done it with gasifiers where a mechanical pump
supplies the motive force, but never with double chimneys. Give it a try.

Maybe we should also focus on finding some other motive power source for
these small stoves (bellows, car tires, tire pumps, camping pumps...).
Still I keep in mind that Alladdin stoves have solved the natural
convection problem for cold kerosene, so we should be able to do it for hot
pyrolysis gas. Take another look at their stoves.

Also consider small solar or battery operated fans as sold by Fred
Hottenroth SIERRA model. Ron and I have both been impressed by the Major
improvement in combustion made my mini-forced convection. A solar-cell
battery system would give the user the impression of "high tech" and let us
feel we were "scientific".

Keep chuggin', TOM REED

From ahbredding at earthlink.net Wed Oct 15 16:55:18 1997
From: ahbredding at earthlink.net (Thami Rodgers)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:39 2004
Subject: making charcoal
Message-ID: <34452008.5F42@earthlink.net>

Do You have any information on making charcoal that can be sent to me.
My name is Vernon Reitan
2135 Akard Avenue, Rm 8
Redding, CA 96001

I would appreciate it.

Thank you.

From MilneT at tcplink.nrel.gov Thu Oct 16 17:06:35 1997
From: MilneT at tcplink.nrel.gov (Milne, Thomas)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:39 2004
Subject: Natural or "mini forced" convection
Message-ID: <199710162106.RAA17798@solstice.crest.org>

Two other options might be considered to generate enough
electricity
to create a forced draft. One could be thermoelectrics. People at

Midwest Research Institute in Kansas City are very active in this
field. The other could be through thermo-photovoltaics. Some
Swedish
researchers, working with our PV people,once borrowed our lab to
set
up a primitive wood fired furnace to test this concept. In both
cases, once started, the wood stove heat would continuously
generate
the electricity for the forced draft. The field of
thermophotovoltaics
is active. NREL hosted an international conference on this subject

this year.

How much of the wood heat would it take at a 10% conversion to
electricity in such a system?

Tom Milne, NREL.

______________________________ Reply Separator
_________________________________
Subject: Natural or "mini forced" convection
Author: Thomas Reed [SMTP:REEDTB@compuserve.com] at SMTP
Date: 10/15/97 10:34 AM

Thomas B. Reed; 303 278 0558 V; ReedTB@Compuserve.Com;
Colorado School of Mines & The Biomass Energy (non-profit)Foundation
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dear Alex:

I agree with your analysis of the Venturi (and other) burner problem and

solution.

It is useful to draw a graph of pressure vs height, starting with zero
pressure of incoming air, going negative above the pyrolysis zone,
negative
or positive going into the burner, negative in the venturi, back to zero
at
the cooking pot. I have done it with gasifiers where a mechanical pump
supplies the motive force, but never with double chimneys. Give it a
try.

Maybe we should also focus on finding some other motive power source for

these small stoves (bellows, car tires, tire pumps, camping pumps...).
Still I keep in mind that Alladdin stoves have solved the natural
convection problem for cold kerosene, so we should be able to do it for
hot
pyrolysis gas. Take another look at their stoves.

Also consider small solar or battery operated fans as sold by Fred
Hottenroth SIERRA model. Ron and I have both been impressed by the
Major
improvement in combustion made my mini-forced convection. A solar-cell
battery system would give the user the impression of "high tech" and let
us
feel we were "scientific".

Keep chuggin', TOM REED

From AShawRN at aol.com Fri Oct 17 02:52:20 1997
From: AShawRN at aol.com (AShawRN@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:39 2004
Subject: out door fireplaces
Message-ID: <971016172835_2114304850@emout16.mail.aol.com>

Looking for plans to build an outdoor fireplace for cooking and tranquility.
Do you have or know of anyone with such plans?

From elk at arcc.or.ke Fri Oct 17 04:58:44 1997
From: elk at arcc.or.ke (E. L. Karstad)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:39 2004
Subject: CLAY'S THE ANSWER! (and we're off again...)
Message-ID: <v01510100b06cfccda84e@[199.2.222.153]>

We are now briquetting the charcoal vendor's wastes 'fines' using 10% clay.

Wow; what a difference. About three times stronger than if 8% cement is
used, and the briquetter is easier to operate- 'greasier' extrusion.

The materials cost per 50 kg bag of finished charcoal briquettes made from
salvaged charcoal vendor's waste has been reduced from USD &1.30 to $0.94.
Now that's cheap!!! A cost reduction in excess of 25%.

I can now pretty safely assume that the lubricant action of the clay will
overcome the friction problems I have experienced with my hand briquetter
when using charcoal made from sawdust.

This leads us...

ONWARD! Now here's one for the stovers- I want us to build a small but
commercially scaled sawdust fueled wood-gas fired bread oven that produces
carbonised sawdust which is made into clay-bound charcoal briquettes.

This could be global. Think of the trees we could save if all wates sawdust
was converted into cooking fuel gas + charcoal briquettes. Imagine the
reduction of pollutant gasses released to the atmosphere. Consider the
improved health implications!

Step one is how to control an even pyrolysis of sawdust. A clockwork
wind-up mechanism might power a conveyer drive through a pyrolysis tunnel?
A small propane pilot light might assist in maintining the combustion of
the wood gas in a separate combustion chamber below the oven... or even a
car's sparkplug powered by a small battery?

Let's get back into high gear stovers.... I'm ready & have the time &
personell to develop this dream into a working reality if we can get our
collective experience, skills and creativity together.

I'm off to dig clay now.

elk

_____________________________
Elsen Karstad
P.O Box 24371 Nairobi, Kenya
Tel:254 2 884437
E-mail: elk@arcc.or.ke
______________________________

From english at adan.kingston.net Fri Oct 17 07:12:55 1997
From: english at adan.kingston.net (*.English)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:39 2004
Subject: CLAY'S THE ANSWER! (and we're off again...)
In-Reply-To: <v01510100b06cfccda84e@[199.2.222.153]>
Message-ID: <199710171115.HAA13484@adan.kingston.net>

> We are now briquetting the charcoal vendor's wastes 'fines' using 10% clay.
>
> Wow; what a difference. About three times stronger than if 8% cement is
> used, and the briquetter is easier to operate- 'greasier' extrusion.
>
> The materials cost per 50 kg bag of finished charcoal briquettes made from
> salvaged charcoal vendor's waste has been reduced from USD &1.30 to $0.94.
> Now that's cheap!!! A cost reduction in excess of 25%.
>
> I can now pretty safely assume that the lubricant action of the clay will
> overcome the friction problems I have experienced with my hand briquetter
> when using charcoal made from sawdust.
>
> This leads us...
>
> ONWARD! Now here's one for the stovers- I want us to build a small but
> commercially scaled sawdust fueled wood-gas fired bread oven that produces
> carbonised sawdust which is made into clay-bound charcoal briquettes.
>
> This could be global. Think of the trees we could save if all wates sawdust
> was converted into cooking fuel gas + charcoal briquettes. Imagine the
> reduction of pollutant gasses released to the atmosphere. Consider the
> improved health implications!
>
> Step one is how to control an even pyrolysis of sawdust. A clockwork
> wind-up mechanism might power a conveyer drive through a pyrolysis tunnel?
> A small propane pilot light might assist in maintining the combustion of
> the wood gas in a separate combustion chamber below the oven... or even a
> car's sparkplug powered by a small battery?
>
> Let's get back into high gear stovers.... I'm ready & have the time &
> personell to develop this dream into a working reality if we can get our
> collective experience, skills and creativity together.
>
> I'm off to dig clay now.
>
There is an elk stampede.
DIG IT !!

Alex
PS With sawdust your likely dealing with a higher moisture content.
Try placing a small can of it in your charcoal maker and see what
happens.

> elk
>
>
>
> _____________________________
> Elsen Karstad
> P.O Box 24371 Nairobi, Kenya
> Tel:254 2 884437
> E-mail: elk@arcc.or.ke
> ______________________________
>
>
>
>
Alex English
RR 2 Odessa Ontario
Canada K0H 2H0
Tel 1-613-386-1927
Fax 1-613-386-1211
Stoves Web Site http://www1.kingston.net/~english/Stoves.html

From prangel at une.edu.ve Fri Oct 17 08:10:51 1997
From: prangel at une.edu.ve (Pedro Rangel)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:39 2004
Subject: from Venezuela
Message-ID: <34475902.15CF@une.edu.ve>

I am trying to find out the year that my stove was manufactured.
It is a Globe Domain 521 ( Scranton ,Pa)
Thanks
--

Ing. Pedro N. Rangel Gonzalez
Pdte. Consejo de Tecnologias
Universidad Nueva Esparta
prangel@une.edu.ve
http://www.une.edu.ve
Direccion / Address :
Urb. Los Naranjos,Avenida Sur 7
Campus UNE, Municipio El Hatillo
Caracas-Venezuela
Tlf/ phones:
58-2-9852536, 58-2-9852936

From Dynamind at aol.com Sat Oct 18 02:35:49 1997
From: Dynamind at aol.com (Dynamind@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:39 2004
Subject: wood gasification boilers
Message-ID: <971018023852_339562242@emout02.mail.aol.com>

Greetings, I read your link on a search for wood gasification and have a
question I'd like to ask. Currently I am using a German built coal/wood
boiler (Tritcchler) to heat my house and hot water. It is a major hassle when
using wood since the creosote problem is ongoing. I've been thinking
seriously of purchasing an HS Tarm wood gasification boiler
(www.hearth.com/tarm) but want to research other manufacturers first. Do you
have any recommendations for wood fired boilers?

Thanks in advance.

Andy Dolan
Box 144
Valley Forge, PA 19481

From REEDTB at compuserve.com Sat Oct 18 11:42:53 1997
From: REEDTB at compuserve.com (Thomas Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:39 2004
Subject: CLAY'S THE ANSWER! (and we're off again...)
Message-ID: <199710181145_MC2-2449-B34B@compuserve.com>

Thomas B. Reed; 303 278 0558 V; ReedTB@Compuserve.Com;
Colorado School of Mines & The Biomass Energy (non-profit)Foundation
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dear Alex, Elk and All:

What great news about the clay binder for charcoal briquettes. This may be
the most productive research site on the Internet.

A few thoughts: Wood (and other biomass) is typically 60% void space and
40% wood. The wood has a true density of 1.5 g/cm3. The term
"briquetting" for biomass has been applied to using very high pressure
(10,000) psi extrusion, typically with 10<MC<20 % moisture, in which case
the lignin BINDS the mass wood together while the pressure collapses the
cells. The briquetting machines were initially developed for pet and
animal feed and typically cost $100k.

Charcoal fines have lost the cellular structure and don't need compression.
Therefore, I believe that the word "extrusion" is more appropriate for
making charcoal briquettes. Hardwood charcoal would probably require some
grinding before making a good briquette.

I mentioned recently that there is a large amount of mineral matter added
to charcoal briquettes in the U.S. From the company viewpoint, this
increases the profits; from the user viewpoint, the clay reduces the
burning rate, and possibly catalyses converting CO to CO2.

ELK: Have you tried a range of clay contents to find out what is best for
both consumer and manufacturer?

Good luck in your continuing investigations, TOM REED

From REEDTB at compuserve.com Sat Oct 18 11:43:11 1997
From: REEDTB at compuserve.com (Thomas Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:39 2004
Subject: stoves-digest V1 #295
Message-ID: <199710181146_MC2-2449-B350@compuserve.com>

Thomas B. Reed; 303 278 0558 V; ReedTB@Compuserve.Com;
Colorado School of Mines & The Biomass Energy (non-profit)Foundation
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dear Tom:

Thanks for the response on other power sources for mini-forced convection.
I'll discuss it with Ron Larson, who I see weekly in church.

What this stove group could do with a little muscle and a little money!
But not many really care for the 3 billion "odd men out".

TOM

From esche at metrolink.net Sat Oct 18 21:12:29 1997
From: esche at metrolink.net (paul esche)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:39 2004
Subject: Universal Gas Ovens
Message-ID: <344989A3.96C99EDC@metrolink.net>

Hi,
I'm writing from Melbourne, FL. I'm searching for a thermostat for a
Universal gas oven. It appears to be about 30 years old
and except for the dis-functional thermostat it works fine. If it cannot
be replaced perhaps it can be repaired. Any assistance you might offer
would be greatly appreciated.

Paul,
esche@metrolink.net

From english at adan.kingston.net Sat Oct 18 22:38:58 1997
From: english at adan.kingston.net (*.English)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:39 2004
Subject: Natural or "mini forced" convection
In-Reply-To: <199710151234_MC2-23FD-85C1@compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <199710190241.WAA16425@adan.kingston.net>

Dear Tom

> Dear Alex:
>
> I agree with your analysis of the Venturi (and other) burner problem and
> solution.
>
> It is useful to draw a graph of pressure vs height, starting with zero
> pressure of incoming air, going negative above the pyrolysis zone, negative
> or positive going into the burner, negative in the venturi, back to zero at
> the cooking pot. I have done it with gasifiers where a mechanical pump
> supplies the motive force, but never with double chimneys. Give it a try.

I have been trying to draw such a graph since you posted this
message. I must admit it I am finding it to be a challenge. Mostly
because I have to make up the data in my imagination. What sort of
manometer arrangement is necessary to measure these tiny pressure
differences. I think it would be worth trying to get these numbers.
One design challenge seem to be, how to get the most mixing with the
least pressure drop. Phase two at Queens may be to create a cold
model for exploring this part of the puzzle.
<snip>
> Also consider small solar or battery operated fans as sold by Fred
> Hottenroth SIERRA model. Ron and I have both been impressed by the Major
> improvement in combustion made my mini-forced convection. A solar-cell
> battery system would give the user the impression of "high tech" and let us
> feel we were "scientific".

I went right out and bought a tiny fan at Radio Shack.( 1Watt, 5.3cfm
or .15 m3/min "free air"). I mounted it on the end of a tin can and
took it with me to this weeks test. I didn't get to use it in all the
possible ways. However it proved that there was no significant
pressure loss through the fuel zone at these flow rates. More later.

This weeks test had almost continuous monitoring of emissions during
the last half of the burn. The results were similar to what I had
been getting with my less sophisticated instruments. CO2 was between
10% and 15% , higher with the more primary air. CO was between 50 and
130 ppm as I viewed the floppy meter needle. Interestingly it
appeared as though the lowest CO was at the higher CO2 levels, which
also corresponded to the most orange/yellow flame. At lower burn
rates and greater excess air the flame was predominantly blue. This
does not jibe with my own measurements from other tests. At the
lowest burn rates we again saw the flat wavy blue sheet that I have
previously described. This is truly a " premixed" flame.
Unfortunately that was before the monitor was going. I will
eventually have spreadsheets and graphs to share with you.

A couple of grab bags of the pyrolysis gasses were also taken. One
during the start up when ignition is difficult and one later during
the stable part of the burn when ignition is easy. Results pending.

On the question of slow start up, how long does it take a
conventional downdraft gasifier's output to stabilize? I read in your
(and Mr. Das) manual that water vapour reacts with the hot char to
form CO and H2. This is also temperature dependent. Is it likely that
this is significant in the IDD gasifier? Am I having trouble
lighting lower value gas until the hot char is formed on the top of
the fuel? For last weeks test I tried top lighting with a layer of
charcoal. The time from lighting the fuel to igniting the burner
seemed to be less.

Choo Choo, Alex

>
> Keep chuggin', TOM REED
>
>
Alex English
RR 2 Odessa Ontario
Canada K0H 2H0
Tel 1-613-386-1927
Fax 1-613-386-1211
Stoves Web Site http://www1.kingston.net/~english/Stoves.html

From kammen at phoenix.Princeton.EDU Sun Oct 19 15:23:04 1997
From: kammen at phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Daniel M. Kammen)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:40 2004
Subject: kerosene stoves -- Dominicn Republic
Message-ID: <v01530505b0701c578731@[128.112.69.56]>

Hi Stovers,

A colleague of mine, Cynthia Knowles, is looking for information on 'well
tested' kerosene stove models for use in a project in the Dominican Republic.
Ideally, these would be inexpensive and easy to manufacture designs, and
preferably ones that have been used in the C. American/Carib. region.

Could you please send any information directly to her at the address/email
listed below?

Thanks,
Dan Kammen

contact address is:

Cynthia Knowles, Project Associate
Enersol
55 Middlesex Street, Suite 221
Chelmsford, MA 01863 USA
Tel: (508)251-1828
Fax: (508)251-5291
E-mail: enersol@igc.apc.org, cknowles@pop.igc.org

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Daniel M. Kammen
Assistant Professor of Public and International Affairs
Chair, Science, Technology and Environmental Policy (STEP) Program
201 5 Ivy Lane
Woodrow Wilson School of Public and International Affairs
Princeton University
Princeton, NJ 08544-1013

Tel: 609-258-2758 Fax: 609-258-6082 Email: kammen@princeton.edu
WWW: http://www.wws.princeton.edu/~kammen/
Secretary Jackie Schatz: Tel: 609-258-4821; Email: jackie@wws.princeton.edu
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

From mbond at airmail.net Sun Oct 19 20:15:38 1997
From: mbond at airmail.net (mbond@airmail.net)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:40 2004
Subject: chambers stove
Message-ID: <m0xN5YR-000GLoE@mail.airmail.net>

I have a chambers stove that I would like to sell and would also like to
know the value.
it has a deep fryer, a grittle 2 burrners and an oven and is very cool
but I can't seem to find a coould way to sell it. please help
michael

Michael Bond and/or Jennifer Bond
TEXAS
my site is http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Stage/8565

From ovencrft at nbn.com Mon Oct 20 00:32:50 1997
From: ovencrft at nbn.com (Alan Scott)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:40 2004
Subject: out door fireplaces
Message-ID: <199710200435.VAA22467@shell10.ba.best.com>

----------
> From: AShawRN@aol.com
> To: stoves@crest.org
> Subject: out door fireplaces
> Date: Thursday, October 16, 1997 11:55 PM
>
> Looking for plans to build an outdoor fireplace for cooking and
tranquility.
> Do you have or know of anyone with such plans?
I have plans for outdoor wood fired bake ovens. Certainly good for cooking
and tranquility, but not exactly fireplaces. Out door fireplaces would
differ from their indoor brothers by being higher off the ground and having
shorter chimneys by far. Plenty of plans available from the likes of Jim
Buckley who has a web site I believe.
ALAN SCOTT

From skip.hayden at cc2smtp.NRCan.gc.ca Mon Oct 20 08:06:36 1997
From: skip.hayden at cc2smtp.NRCan.gc.ca (Skip Hayden)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:40 2004
Subject: wood gasification boilers
Message-ID: <9709208773.AA877360180@cc2smtp.nrcan.gc.ca>

Even with a Tarm you run the risk of getting creosote if you
don't use dry wood, fire hot enough and minimize temperature
loss from the boiler to the top of your chimney. You should
seriously consider using double-walled flue pipe (wiith
stainless steel liner) from the boiler to the chimney, and
make sure that your chimney is not oversized for the boiler.
Also, the Tarm is not truly a gasifier, just a two stage
combustor. It is not as effective in reducing incomplete
combustion products as are the new advanced combustion
woodstove designs, such as Regency or Aladin.

An excellent alternative (albeit very uncommon) is a
Jetstream, now made in very limited quantities by Parrsboro
Metals in Parrsboro, Nova Scotia.

Hope this helps,

Skip Hayden
Advanced Combustion Technologies
ETB/CETC
Ottawa, Canada K1A 1M1

TEL: (613) 996-3186
FAX: (613) 992-9335
e-mail: skip.hayden@nrcan.gc.ca

From ovencrft at nbn.com Mon Oct 20 13:12:04 1997
From: ovencrft at nbn.com (Alan Scott)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:40 2004
Subject: out door fireplaces
Message-ID: <199710201715.KAA03951@shell10.ba.best.com>

From REEDTB at compuserve.com Mon Oct 20 13:54:26 1997
From: REEDTB at compuserve.com (Thomas Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:40 2004
Subject: Kerosene stoves
Message-ID: <199710201200_MC2-2483-A432@compuserve.com>

Thomas B. Reed; 303 278 0558 V; ReedTB@Compuserve.Com;
Colorado School of Mines & The Biomass Energy (non-profit)Foundation
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Dear Cynthia:

Kerosene stoves are interesting to me because we are trying to find
alternatives using biomass - and because I am interested in stoves and
flames in general.

The Alladin (sp?) stoves and lamps have been made probably since 1900, and
you should be able to find them in any good country hardware store. I
believe they are manufactured in Nashville, Tenn., and while there this
year I would have visited them if I had had time. They use natural
convection and very special wicks to achieve a very clean, blue flame with
kerosene. They are imitated all around the world. The COLEMAN company
makes stoves that work on gasoline. You should study them, too at any good
camping store. Buy one of each. Use it. Then you can advise others.

While in Holland last year I saw an amazing collection of kerosene stoves
at the University of Einhhoven. They made funded studies of these stoves
in the late 1980s. If you can contact PRASAD or ETIENNE MOORMAN at
Eindhoven they can tell you much more. I am forwarding your letter to
them.

I am confident that biodiesel (made from vegetable oils) may be used in
stoves, but it is not generally available, even in the U.S. - maybe in
Europe, and I don't think anyone has studied its use in stoves.

I wish that I could advise you that we have made wood stoves that are as
good as kerosene, and we may soon. Join STOVES by sending the message
SUBSCRIBE STOVES to MAJORDOMO@CREST.ORG, if interested. I will put your
request in their mail.

Meanwhile, these people need help now. Go for it.

Yours truly, TOM REED

>Dear Mr. Reed:

I am a Project Associate with Enersol Associates, Inc., an international
NGO
specializing in decentralized, alternative rural energy systems in Latin
America and the Caribbean. We are about to expand our primary focus,
photovoltaics, and address household cooking issues. Next month I will
travel to the Dominican Republic to carry out a household cooking survey
and
cookstove testing in rural areas of the north. We plan to assess women's
cooking practices in rural areas, its relation to natural resource
scarcity,
and interest in and appropriateness of alternative cooking devices,
primarily kerosene stoves and solar cookers.

I am researching cookstove programs and looking to procure various liquid
fuel (kerosene and biofuel) stoves and solar box cooker designs and would
like to know if you have information on specific kerosene stove designs and
where I might find them. You mentioned an Alladdin stove in a previous
message. Who manufactures Alladdin? In addition, do you have suggestions
on whom I should contact for additional information on cookstove projects
in
Latin America and the Caribbean and kerosene cookstove models available in
that region? Do you have information on liquid biofuel cookstove projects
(biofuel produced from agricultural crops and residues, not wood biomass)?
I have gathered a few names from the stoves listserv active in the LAC
region (i.e. Rogerio Carneiro de Miranda) but your wealth of experience may
certainly lead me to those I have not yet encountered.

I would greatly appreciate any information you can provide. I can be
reached via e-mail: cknowles@igc.apc.org

Thank you in advance for your assistance.

Sincerely,

Cynthia Knowles
Project Associate

******************************
Enersol Associates, Inc.
55 Middlesex Street, Suite 221
N. Chelmsford, MA 01863 USA
Tel: (508)251-1828
Fax: (508)251-5291
E-mail: enersol@igc.apc.org

From english at adan.kingston.net Mon Oct 20 21:57:30 1997
From: english at adan.kingston.net (*.English)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:40 2004
Subject: wood gasification boilers
In-Reply-To: <9709208773.AA877360180@cc2smtp.nrcan.gc.ca>
Message-ID: <199710210200.WAA03444@adan.kingston.net>

Dear Skip

<snip>
> Also, the Tarm is not truly a gasifier, just a two stage
> combustor. It is not as effective in reducing incomplete
> combustion products as are the new advanced combustion
> woodstove designs, such as Regency or Aladin.
<snip>

I would be interested in knowing more about the reasons.
Are the emission test results for wood stoves publicly available?

Thanks Alex
> Hope this helps,
>
> Skip Hayden
> Advanced Combustion Technologies
> ETB/CETC
> Ottawa, Canada K1A 1M1
>
> TEL: (613) 996-3186
> FAX: (613) 992-9335
> e-mail: skip.hayden@nrcan.gc.ca
>
>
>
Alex English
RR 2 Odessa Ontario
Canada K0H 2H0
Tel 1-613-386-1927
Fax 1-613-386-1211
Stoves Web Site http://www1.kingston.net/~english/Stoves.html

From elk at arcc.or.ke Tue Oct 21 09:06:44 1997
From: elk at arcc.or.ke (E. L. Karstad)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:40 2004
Subject: Clay as charcoal briquette binder.
Message-ID: <v01510103b072788f320b@[199.2.222.132]>

Tom;

In response to your question, I have not tried various percent inclusions-
clay at 10% gives a 'Kingston' briquette hardness (forgive if I tread on
propietary namesakes here). I have a Canadian made briquette here in front
of me, and upon internal examination, the carbinised particle sizes are
much greater than my charcoal vendors reject fines; this is apparently
carbonised sawdust from a broad toothed circular saw.

I have tried two different types of clay- the classic reddish
'pot-making-clay' is better by a margin of two over the local 'black cotton
soil' (gumbo to you plains dwellers), which, however is still superior to
cement as a binder.

I regret now the many bags of cement I've used at 8% inclusion as a binder
in charcoal briquette production to date.

I'll let you know the ash content tomorrow- may as well wait 'till lunch
needs cooking before testing, no?

Tom, as for the nomenclature; I stand corrected on the 2can charoal making
wood-gas cookstove 'fuel cell' issue, but "charcoal extrusions" just won't
sell as well as charcoal briquettes!

Some cogitation over the weekend lead me to consider that since most
sawdust needs some drying (especially that collected from the great outdoor
piles of the stuff adjacent to sawmills) before it's suitable for
pyrolysis, and the clay-bound extruded briquettes I produce also need
drying (currently sun-dried), then maybe a reasonable first approach to the
conversion of sawdust to charcoal briquettes is to use the wood gas to fuel
a drier to both prepare the sawdust and finish the briquettes.

So, I'll not worry about bread ovens just yet, but if we can come up with a
sawdust/charcoal drier, then the proposed fruit drier previously discussed
will have been developed too.

Now, as the first step, can anyone propose a gasifier for sawdust that
could be used to produce charcoal? Should we consider a batchwise or
continuous feed?

Tom; what sort of gasifiers are able to use sawdust?

elk

_____________________________
Elsen Karstad
P.O Box 24371 Nairobi, Kenya
Tel:254 2 884437
E-mail: elk@arcc.or.ke
______________________________

From REEDTB at compuserve.com Tue Oct 21 09:47:11 1997
From: REEDTB at compuserve.com (Thomas Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:40 2004
Subject: More natural convection
Message-ID: <199710210950_MC2-24A0-F119@compuserve.com>

Thomas B. Reed; 303 278 0558 V; ReedTB@Compuserve.Com;
Colorado School of Mines & The Biomass Energy (non-profit)Foundation
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

homas B. Reed; 303 278 0558 V; ReedTB@Compuserve.Com;
Colorado School of Mines & The Biomass Energy (non-profit)Foundation
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dear Alex;
>
I went right out and bought a tiny fan at Radio Shack.( 1Watt, 5.3cfm
or .15 m3/min "free air"). I mounted it on the end of a tin can and
took it with me to this weeks test. I didn't get to use it in all the
possible ways. However it proved that there was no significant
pressure loss through the fuel zone at these flow rates. More later.

>>Alex: What a man of action. It is VERY hard to measure these small
drafts, less than 0.01 inch of water. Dyer Corp. makes a slanted draft
gauge that will measure to ~0.01.

Its also hard to measure low flows. Here's a test from Fred Hottenroth.
Put a 1 mil, 30 gal garbage bag on your new fan. It will inflate quite
readily (~0 back pressure). Now put a light weight (piece of plywood) over
the top of the bag and measure flow with that pressure. Now add weights
incrementally and you can get a pressure-vs flow diagram. Please post.

>This weeks test had almost continuous monitoring of emissions during
the last half of the burn. The results were similar to what I had
been getting with my less sophisticated instruments. CO2 was between
10% and 15% , higher with the more primary air. CO was between 50 and
130 ppm as I viewed the floppy meter needle. Interestingly it
appeared as though the lowest CO was at the higher CO2 levels, which
also corresponded to the most orange/yellow flame. At lower burn
rates and greater excess air the flame was predominantly blue. This
does not jibe with my own measurements from other tests. At the
lowest burn rates we again saw the flat wavy blue sheet that I have
previously described. This is truly a " premixed" flame.
Unfortunately that was before the monitor was going. I will
eventually have spreadsheets and graphs to share with you.

>>Glad to hear your measurement results. However, I believe that achieving
a good clean stove needs to be #1 priority, at which point the emissions
will probably be quite low.

On the question of slow start up, how long does it take a
conventional downdraft gasifier's output to stabilize? I read in your
(and Mr. Das) manual that water vapour reacts with the hot char to
form CO and H2. This is also temperature dependent. Is it likely that
this is significant in the IDD gasifier? Am I having trouble
lighting lower value gas until the hot char is formed on the top of
the fuel? For last weeks test I tried top lighting with a layer of
charcoal. The time from lighting the fuel to igniting the burner
seemed to be less.

>>It only takes a few minutes for the conventional downdraft to stabilize -
then you can drive off in your Morris Minor.

No reaction between charcoal and steam or CO2 below about 700C, and then
very slow. So no char gasification in the inverted downdrart, hence high
charcoal yields. With increased draft, temperatures will rise and you will
begin to convert charcoal to more, but weaker gas. I hope to make
quantitative tests on this soon, and need good flowmeters and draft gauges.
So keep in touch.

Good luck - TOM

From S5858 at worldnet.att.net Tue Oct 21 23:05:48 1997
From: S5858 at worldnet.att.net (S.SIMPSON)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:40 2004
Subject: BUCK'S STOVE AND RANGE CO.
Message-ID: <19971022030853.AAA10783@scott-simpson>

HAVE YOU ANY INFORMATION OR PARTS FOR AN OLD BUCK STOVE. MADE IN ST. LOUIS.
IF SO PLEASE LET ME KNOW.
SCOTT

From TheBull122 at aol.com Wed Oct 22 00:01:31 1997
From: TheBull122 at aol.com (TheBull122@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:40 2004
Subject: antique stove Grand Gas Range by Cleveland Co-Operative Stove Co.
Message-ID: <971022000221_1893300287@emout09.mail.aol.com>

I have an inquiry on an old stove . The Co. is the Cleveland Co-Operative
Stove Co. , Cleveland Ohio l920's or early 30's. It is the GrandGas Range 4
Burner B-l6 Model No. I Wondered what it is worth today. Has not been
hooked up in a few years. Its condition is fair to good With a few chips to
enamel. Also a little rust on grates. The back of stove has an oval pipe
with missing exhaust pipe that was connected to a chimmey at one time. Do
you know anything about this stove as far as value today.
Thanks

From elizabethb at itdg.org.uk Wed Oct 22 04:42:00 1997
From: elizabethb at itdg.org.uk (Elizabeth Bates)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:40 2004
Subject: kerosene stoves -- Dominicn Republic
Message-ID: <199710220841.EAA15220@solstice.crest.org>

I asked a colleague here at Intermediate Technology and he suggested
the following:

'I don't know of any kerosene stoves that have been used or tested
specifically in L.America (although there is one stove called the REDI
being used in Haiti, but I have no detailed information). There are
many brands of kero stove in Africa which are imported form China and
these seem to work well and are cheap. There is one Colombian
pressurised kero stove which was tested in Ecuador and the report is
in Boiling Point 20 "An Investigation on the Colombian Kerosene
Stove". I'm sure that Pete Young will know exactly what's going on in
L.America with kero stoves. Probably best to contact him.'

Certainly it would be worthwhile to contact Pete Young, who works for
CARE and whose fax is ++509 576 785. Although he is on e-mail, there is some
reason or other why he prefers to use fax. If you want a copy of
BP20, please send me a full postal address.
Elizabeth Bates
Intermediate Technology
Myson House, Railway Terrace
Rugby CV21 3HT UK
Tel: +44 -1788 560631 Fax: +44 -1788 540270
Email: elizabethb@itdg.org.uk
Url: http://www.oneworld.org/itdg
Intl: http://www.itdg.org.pe

From elk at arcc.or.ke Wed Oct 22 05:22:28 1997
From: elk at arcc.or.ke (E. L. Karstad)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:40 2004
Subject: Clay as briquette binder
Message-ID: <v01510100b0738d942bc4@[199.2.222.132]>

I've been getting some returned mail, so please forgive if this has already
been rec'd.

-------------------------------------------------------------

To: stoves@crest.org
From: elk@arcc.or.ke (E. L. Karstad)
Subject: Clay as charcoal briquette binder.
Sender: owner-stoves@crest.org
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: stoves@crest.org

Tom;

I regret now the many bags of cement I've used at 8% inclusion as a binder
in charcoal briquette production to date.

I'll let you know the ash content tomorrow- may as well wait 'till lunch
needs cooking before testing, no?

Tom, as for the nomenclature; I stand corrected on the 2can charoal making
wood-gas cookstove 'fuel cell' issue, but "charcoal extrusions" just won't
sell as well as charcoal briquettes!

So, I'll not worry about bread ovens just yet, but if we can come up with a
sawdust/charcoal drier, then the proposed fruit drier previously discussed
will have been developed too.

Now, as the first step, can anyone propose a gasifier for sawdust that
could be used to produce charcoal? Should we consider a batchwise or
continuous feed?

Tom; what sort of gasifiers are able to use sawdust?

elk

_____________________________

_____________________________
Elsen Karstad
P.O Box 24371 Nairobi, Kenya
Tel:254 2 884437
E-mail: elk@arcc.or.ke
______________________________

From elk at arcc.or.ke Wed Oct 22 07:35:30 1997
From: elk at arcc.or.ke (E. L. Karstad)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:40 2004
Subject: Clay as Briquette Binder- Ash Content
Message-ID: <v01510100b073beb6b6d5@[199.2.222.131]>

Using 10% clay to bind charcoal vendor's waste 'fines' into briquettes:

2 kg of 10% clay-bound charcoal briquettes were burnt in a traditional
metal 'jiko' (NOT the improved fired-clay lined type).

2.5 hours from lighting to completion.

2 kg briquettes produced 850 gm ash (42.5% ash)

1.5 kg water boiled off

Time to boil not noted.

elk

_____________________________
Elsen Karstad
P.O Box 24371 Nairobi, Kenya
Tel:254 2 884437
E-mail: elk@arcc.or.ke
______________________________

From REEDTB at compuserve.com Wed Oct 22 11:16:16 1997
From: REEDTB at compuserve.com (Thomas Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:40 2004
Subject: Clay as charcoal briquette binder.
Message-ID: <199710221116_MC2-24BB-73D0@compuserve.com>

Thomas B. Reed; 303 278 0558 V; ReedTB@Compuserve.Com;
Colorado School of Mines & The Biomass Energy (non-profit)Foundation
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dear ELK:

My wife used to be a Girlscout leader and she told me about a charcoal
"candle" (ie gasifier +combustor). Take a 1 or 2 lb coffee can. Cut a
1-1/2 " hole in the bottom. Put a 1-1/2" dowel in the hole. Pack dry
sawdust TIGHTLY around the dowel. Remove the dowel (sawdust remains in
place). Light sawdust inside surface near bottom. The flame will go up
the inside, generating pyrolysis gases as it goes, and they burn when the
hit the air.

Last year Mukunda in India showed me a similar unit for use as a stove.

Let me hear your experience.

TOM REED

From ofb-inc. at ix.netcom.com Thu Oct 23 04:32:53 1997
From: ofb-inc. at ix.netcom.com (Gregory C. Brown)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:40 2004
Subject: kerosene stoves -- Dominicn Republic
Message-ID: <199710230835.DAA07122@dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com>

Dear Elizabeth,
I read your message to the Stoves network today, and will follow up
on making contact with Pete Young (CARE)by FAX.
We are a NGO (non government organization) in South Florida(USA)
producing natural lump charcoal, using a portable metal kiln (developed
in the UK), which produces one tonne of charcoal every two days. We
are working on eliminating smoke emissions to meet Clean Air
Guidelines. We have two non-native species of trees here in Florida,
totalling 1.5 million acres, which have been declared an environmental
pest, and must be eliminated to ensure future supplies of fresh water
for the State (Florida). Both types of trees are hardwood and make
excellent charcoal. We could ship in bulk quantities or prepackaged.

What we are looking for is a customer (preferably in the
humanitarian aid field) who would be willing to try some of our
charcoal, with the possibilities of using our charcoal as part of their
humanitarian aid program.

In your field of expertise, can you suggest any such agencies, or
would you care to be our representative(partner) in contacting
prospective customers?
Our long term plans include the establishment of tree "farms" using
three types of Eucalyptus trees, to become the feedstock for future
production of charcoal in Third World countries.
Best regards...Greg Brown

From shaase at neosdenver.com Thu Oct 23 09:54:16 1997
From: shaase at neosdenver.com (Scott Haase)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:40 2004
Subject: kerosene stoves -- Dominicn Republic
In-Reply-To: <199710230835.DAA07122@dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <344F574F.910A701D@neosdenver.com>

Greg:

I would like to receive more information on your portable charcoal making
technology. Our company has been doing some work in the Lake Tahoe area,
looking at various utilization alternatives for excess biomass. One of the
approaches we would like to test is a pilot project to convert the biomass
in the woods to a higher value product. In this manner, instead of
transporting raw biomass, one is transporting a higher values product.

Is your technology in commercial operation? You said that you are modifying
it to comply with the Clean Air Act - how long will this process take you?
What is the approximate cost of the technology. I saw from your email that
you are looking for export markets - have you also investigated the US
market potential for natural charcoal? One thing we do not want to do in
Lake Tahoe is turn one disposal problem (biomass) into another (charcoal).

Any information you could pass on, either by email or through the regular
mail, would be appreciated.

Sincerely,

Scott Haase

Scott Haase
NEOS Coporation
165 South Union Blvd., Suite 260
Lakewood, CO 80228 USA
Phone: (303) 980-1969
Fax: (303) 980-1030
email: shaase@neosdenver.com

Gregory C. Brown wrote:

> Dear Elizabeth,
> I read your message to the Stoves network today, and will follow up
> on making contact with Pete Young (CARE)by FAX.
> We are a NGO (non government organization) in South Florida(USA)
> producing natural lump charcoal, using a portable metal kiln (developed
> in the UK), which produces one tonne of charcoal every two days. We
> are working on eliminating smoke emissions to meet Clean Air
> Guidelines. We have two non-native species of trees here in Florida,
> totalling 1.5 million acres, which have been declared an environmental
> pest, and must be eliminated to ensure future supplies of fresh water
> for the State (Florida). Both types of trees are hardwood and make
> excellent charcoal. We could ship in bulk quantities or prepackaged.
>
> What we are looking for is a customer (preferably in the
> humanitarian aid field) who would be willing to try some of our
> charcoal, with the possibilities of using our charcoal as part of their
> humanitarian aid program.
>
> In your field of expertise, can you suggest any such agencies, or
> would you care to be our representative(partner) in contacting
> prospective customers?
> Our long term plans include the establishment of tree "farms" using
> three types of Eucalyptus trees, to become the feedstock for future
> production of charcoal in Third World countries.
> Best regards...Greg Brown

--
*************************

From pauls at vals.bigfork.k12.mt.us Thu Oct 23 17:25:41 1997
From: pauls at vals.bigfork.k12.mt.us (Paul)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:40 2004
Subject: cold fussion
Message-ID: <344FC2C0.43F7@vals.bigfork.k12.mt.us>

To whom this may concern:

If you could help me and my school, please E-mail me at
duane@digisys.net. We're in the National Debate Team and need info on
this subject. If you can help please write us. Thank you for your time
and God bless you.

From emoerman at iaehv.IAEhv.nl Thu Oct 23 17:49:29 1997
From: emoerman at iaehv.IAEhv.nl (E. Moerman)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:40 2004
Subject: kerosene stoves -- Dominicn Republic
In-Reply-To: <199710220841.EAA15220@solstice.crest.org>
Message-ID: <199710232152.XAA24504@IAEhv.nl>

kerosene stoves

Elizabeth Bates wrote:

> I asked a colleague here at Intermediate Technology and he suggested
> the following:
> 'I don't know of any kerosene stoves that have been used or tested
> specifically in L.America (although there is one stove called the REDI
> being used in Haiti, but I have no detailed information). There are
> many brands of kero stove in Africa which are imported form China and
> these seem to work well and are cheap. There is one Colombian
> pressurised kero stove which was tested in Ecuador and the report is
> in Boiling Point 20 "An Investigation on the Colombian Kerosene
> Stove". I'm sure that Pete Young will know exactly what's going on in
> L.America with kero stoves. Probably best to contact him.'

-----------

Etienne:
This pressurised kerosene stove was tested at Eindhoven by a student
from Ecuador who visisted our lab. He worked on the stove for a year.
I have seen it in action and I liked it a lot. Blue flames all the
time (except for the first minute or so). Efficiency over 60% if my
memory serves me correctly. Disadvantage is the smell of kerosene.
Also this particular model produced an irritant whistling sound, but
we know the cause of that and how to eliminate it. If anyone is
interested in a copy of the complete report (the article in
boiling point only contains a brief description of the work done
at Eindhoven) ask Prasad if copies are still available.

Etienne

Etienne Moerman Tel.: ((+31) 40) 257 1491
Joh. Buyslaan 71
5652 NJ EINDHOVEN
The Netherlands

From english at adan.kingston.net Thu Oct 23 22:59:54 1997
From: english at adan.kingston.net (*.English)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:40 2004
Subject: More natural convection
In-Reply-To: <199710210950_MC2-24A0-F119@compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <199710240302.XAA21483@adan.kingston.net>

Dear Tom
Just a few things to report.
I took a stab at doing the pressure diagram for the test burner. I
posted it along side the drawing at
http://www1.kingston.net/~english/Queens.htm
Feedback is welcome.

There are some tools which will measure these tiny pressures,
capacitive manometers, and some thermocouple sensors will go down to
.0005in wc. The price is not so tiny.

The premixed wavy blue flame, which I have been mentioning, appears
to grow out of an excess air situation at a low burn rate as measured
by the primary air opening. CO2 at around 7% with CO between 1500
and 2500ppm. This flame occurs in an uninsulated portion of the
chimney.

Alex
Alex English
RR 2 Odessa Ontario
Canada K0H 2H0
Tel 1-613-386-1927
Fax 1-613-386-1211
Stoves Web Site http://www1.kingston.net/~english/Stoves.html

From icantoo at connriver.net Thu Oct 23 23:03:58 1997
From: icantoo at connriver.net (Regan Pride)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:40 2004
Subject: kerosene stoves -- Dominicn Republic
In-Reply-To: <199710230835.DAA07122@dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <34501125.534D@connriver.net>

Dear Greg,
Your message to Elizabeth regarding your charcoal operation peaked my
interest. I am considering starting an operation similar to yours in
Northern New Hampshire, and I wondered if you would share inforamtion
about your portable kiln?

Regan Pride
ICANTOO Enterprises
451 Gilman Hill Rd.
Lisbon, NH 03585
icantoo@connriver.net

From echo at dreamscape.com Sat Oct 25 10:29:01 1997
From: echo at dreamscape.com (ECHO)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:40 2004
Subject: Chambers stove
Message-ID: <01BCE131.4C8716E0@sc14.dreamscape.com>

We have a beautiful copper Chambers stove that generally works great.

We have none of the original accessories used to cook in the "Thermowell".

In addition, one of the burners was converted to a thermostatic burner which is broken (the control piece) and I have been unable to find replacement parts. Also, the door hinges for the oven door are broken as is the linkage to raise the broiler.

Any ideas on where I might find any accessories or parts ?

Mike Campbell
204 Stolp Ave
Syracuse, NY 13207

From purchasing at thebol.com Sun Oct 26 05:46:07 1997
From: purchasing at thebol.com (purchasing@thebol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:40 2004
Subject: Request_for_quotation
Message-ID: <B0000180082@bol1.thebol.com>

Att. Sales / Export Department

Re: Request for quotation

A "RFQ" for products which, to the best of our knowledge are similar to
those offered by you ,was placed with us by one of our clients.

We are a world wide sourcing firm and we are paid by our clients to
find them suitable suppliers .

To you ,our service is totally free of charge !!!

The information we will get from you will not only be immediately sent
to this particular client but also to all other clients looking for
similar products .

To define and advise us the products you are interested to export
and/or to get more information about us and our FREE SERVICE , please
use our Internet interface at: http://www.thebol.com

Best Regards

N. Nissimoff
Director
theBOL - Purchasing Department

From tmiles at teleport.com Sun Oct 26 19:43:50 1997
From: tmiles at teleport.com (Tom Miles)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:40 2004
Subject: carbon dioxide emissions
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971026162214.007574c0@mail.teleport.com>

Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 16:41:28 -0600
To: bioenergy@crest.org
From: larcon@sni.net (Ronal W. Larson)
Subject: Re: carbon dioxide emissions
Cc: stoves@crest.org

Five comments:

1. I'm embarrassed.
2. Thank goodness for the other Developed Countries.
3. Clinton actually went farther than many thought he would; we
are making progress.
4. We have a Republican party in control of a Congress which must
approve what a Democratic administration negotiates - and the Republican
party is controlled by big business contributions.
5. I just dug out from a three-foot snowfall in Denver Colorado
that everyone attributes to El Nino - but no one is yet attributing El Nino
to Global Climate Change. But they will, I predict.

>Any comments from the biomass community on the announcement of the US DoE on
>the 3.6% increase in CO2 emissions last year in the USA, as well as the USA's
>postponement to 2017 of the reduction in CO2 emissions below 1990 levels?
>
>David McIlveen-Wright
>Energy Research Centre/NICERT,
>University of Ulster,
>Coleraine BT52 1SA
>N. Ireland

Ronal W. Larson, PhD
21547 Mountsfield Dr.
Golden, CO 80401, USA
303/526-9629; FAX same with warning
larcon@sni.net

From tmiles at teleport.com Sun Oct 26 19:44:18 1997
From: tmiles at teleport.com (Tom Miles)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:40 2004
Subject: Request_for_quotation
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971026164132.00a1226c@mail.teleport.com>

Eric and Stovers:

You all read the SPAM we received from purchasing@thebol.com under the guise of a "Request_for_quotation." You can become incensed at the posting, scream "yo ben kek" (Dutch for 'you're crazy'?) at the poster AND simply discard the messages.

I have removed the sender from the list, but I am sure that he or others will be back. I have found that talking to these people is far less effective than, say, lecturing a teenage daughter. We do what we can to prevent these postings but SPAM software has become extremely sophisticated. You can throw bad clients out of your office or miscreant students from a classroom but it's difficult to prevent someone from posting to the net. Fortunately a list like stoves@crest.org isn't a good market for SPAMMERS so we haven't seen too much of it.

Just a reminder that Stoves and the other bioenergy lists at CREST are maintained by volunteers in the spirit of cooperative discussion. Each list has 1-3 volunteer moderators. We do not screen the messages that go to the list. Only the moderators have access to the list email addresses. We limit spam by allowing only list members to post messages. But what's to prevent a spammer from joining a list? If they persist we can block them from the list.

Thanks for your patience.

Regards,

Tom Miles

At 12:27 AM 10/27/97, you wrote:
>Sir,
>
>The following message (forwarded below) appeared on the STOVES list.
>
>I cannot accept that the Stoves list is used to spread commercial
>publicity. I request you to act with extreme firmness to stop this abuse.
>If this abuse reappears with any frequency, I will unsubscribe, and suggest
>the same to all my colleagues.
>
>Please note that this commercial firm is lying: as the STOVES list does not
>offer products, the firm cannot have received an "RFQ" for such products.
>In addition, the firm gives no postal or other address, marking it as
>unwilling to be publicly accountable.
>
>Could you please inform the whole STOVES list of the action you have taken?
>
>Yours sincerely Eric T. Ferguson
>
>------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
>From: purchasing@thebol.com
>Date sent: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 12:59:36 +0000
>Subject: Request_for_quotation
>To: stoves@crest.org
>Send reply to: stoves@crest.org
>
>|dr. E.T. Ferguson, Consultant for Energy and Development (MacFergus BV)|
>|van Dormaalstraat 15, 5624 KH EINDHOVEN, Netherlands. |
>|e-mail: e.ferguson@antenna.nl. phone:+31-40-2432878; fax:+31-40-2467036|
>
>
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thomas R. Miles, TCI tmiles@teleport.com
1470 SW Woodward Way http://www.teleport.com/~tmiles/
Portland, Oregon, USA 97225 Tel (503) 292-0107 Fax (503) 605-0208

From CKEZAR34 at aol.com Sun Oct 26 20:35:10 1997
From: CKEZAR34 at aol.com (CKEZAR34@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:40 2004
Subject: carbon dioxide emissions
Message-ID: <971026203557_357846885@emout06.mail.aol.com>

In a message dated 10/27/97 12:48:38 AM, Tom M wrote:

> 4. We have a Republican party in control of a Congress which must
>approve what a Democratic administration negotiates - and the Republican
>party is controlled by big business contributions
-------------
Tom M
Rather than blast back and forth from one political "story" to another, It
would be better to stick to Science or specific personal experiences. I have
lots of Democratic political experiences that could take up a lot of
non-science, non-energy, non-stove space if meaningless blasting is what we
are to turn into.

CA Kezar

From larcon at sni.net Sun Oct 26 23:47:48 1997
From: larcon at sni.net (Ronal W. Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:40 2004
Subject: something sent to the bioenergy list
Message-ID: <v01540b00b07979750ae3@[204.133.251.35]>

Just to keep the stoves list up on global climate change dialog, in my
response to a different list.

Five comments:

Ronal W. Larson, PhD
21547 Mountsfield Dr.
Golden, CO 80401, USA
303/526-9629; FAX same with warning
larcon@sni.net

From larcon at sni.net Mon Oct 27 00:49:21 1997
From: larcon at sni.net (Ronal W. Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:40 2004
Subject: Request_for_quotation (a message from Tom Miles)
Message-ID: <v01540b01b079d7ce2330@[204.133.251.23]>

Tom: thanks for your reply.

Stovers and Zach - Just a few more comments on Tom Mile's response to Eric
(which came in to Tom and I as "stoves-owner" - not to the full "stoves"
list). I think perhaps I could have prevented this by asking Zach
("CREST") to keep such messages out, by requiring all messages to be
personally approved by myself. I did not approve this message individually
in this case. I presume that Tom is correct that "spammers" could still
get by the procedures, but I don't believe that "theBOL" is a list member,
so I'm not sure how Tom is going to remove him/her. However, list members
can be approved automatically without my say-so.
Please let me know individually or to the full group whether I
should try to individually approve all such messages. I would not mind
trying to be such a filter, but there will be some more confusion and time
delay than now. Your thoughts?

Regards Ron

from Tom Miles:

>Eric and Stovers:
>
>You all read the SPAM we received from purchasing@thebol.com under the
>guise of a "Request_for_quotation." You can become incensed at the
>posting, scream "yo ben kek" (Dutch for 'you're crazy'?) at the poster
>AND simply discard the messages.
>
>I have removed the sender from the list, but I am sure that he or others
>will be back. I have found that talking to these people is far less
>effective than, say, lecturing a teenage daughter. We do what we can to
>prevent these postings but SPAM software has become extremely
>sophisticated. You can throw bad clients out of your office or miscreant
>students from a classroom but it's difficult to prevent someone from
>posting to the net. Fortunately a list like stoves@crest.org isn't a good
>market for SPAMMERS so we haven't seen too much of it.
>
>Just a reminder that Stoves and the other bioenergy lists at CREST are
>maintained by volunteers in the spirit of cooperative discussion. Each
>list has 1-3 volunteer moderators. We do not screen the messages that go
>to the list. Only the moderators have access to the list email addresses.
>We limit spam by allowing only list members to post messages. But what's
>to prevent a spammer from joining a list? If they persist we can block
>them from the list.
>
>Thanks for your patience.
>
>Regards,
>
>Tom Miles
>
>
>
>
>
>At 12:27 AM 10/27/97, you wrote:
>>Sir,
>>
>>The following message (forwarded below) appeared on the STOVES list.
>>
>>I cannot accept that the Stoves list is used to spread commercial
>>publicity. I request you to act with extreme firmness to stop this abuse.
>>If this abuse reappears with any frequency, I will unsubscribe, and suggest
>>the same to all my colleagues.
>>
>>Please note that this commercial firm is lying: as the STOVES list does not
>>offer products, the firm cannot have received an "RFQ" for such products.
>>In addition, the firm gives no postal or other address, marking it as
>>unwilling to be publicly accountable.
>>
>>Could you please inform the whole STOVES list of the action you have taken?
>>
>>Yours sincerely Eric T. Ferguson
>>
>>------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
>>From: purchasing@thebol.com
>>Date sent: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 12:59:36 +0000
>>Subject: Request_for_quotation
>>To: stoves@crest.org
>>Send reply to: stoves@crest.org
>>
>>|dr. E.T. Ferguson, Consultant for Energy and Development (MacFergus BV)|
>>|van Dormaalstraat 15, 5624 KH EINDHOVEN, Netherlands. |
>>|e-mail: e.ferguson@antenna.nl. phone:+31-40-2432878; fax:+31-40-2467036|
>>
>>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>--------
>Thomas R. Miles, TCI tmiles@teleport.com
>
>1470 SW Woodward Way http://www.teleport.com/~tmiles/
>Portland, Oregon, USA 97225 Tel (503) 292-0107 Fax (503) 605-0208

Ronal W. Larson, PhD
21547 Mountsfield Dr.
Golden, CO 80401, USA
303/526-9629; FAX same with warning
larcon@sni.net

From tmiles at teleport.com Mon Oct 27 01:24:23 1997
From: tmiles at teleport.com (Tom Miles)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:40 2004
Subject: carbon dioxide emissions
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971026222556.009f253c@mail.teleport.com>

List Procedure

Sometimes messages get misaddressed or mis-sent so, as one of the list moderators, I simply redirect the message to the list. Please look to see who the original sender of the message is before addressing your reply.

Thanks

Tom

At 08:37 PM 10/26/97 -0500, you wrote:
>
>In a message dated 10/27/97 12:48:38 AM, Tom M wrote:
>
>> 4. We have a Republican party in control of a Congress which must
>>approve what a Democratic administration negotiates - and the Republican
>>party is controlled by big business contributions
>-------------
>Tom M
>Rather than blast back and forth from one political "story" to another, It
>would be better to stick to Science or specific personal experiences. I have
>lots of Democratic political experiences that could take up a lot of
>non-science, non-energy, non-stove space if meaningless blasting is what we
>are to turn into.
>
>CA Kezar
>
>
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thomas R. Miles, TCI tmiles@teleport.com
1470 SW Woodward Way http://www.teleport.com/~tmiles/
Portland, Oregon, USA 97225 Tel (503) 292-0107 Fax (503) 605-0208

From nhurrelbrinck at mail.comet.net Mon Oct 27 16:13:08 1997
From: nhurrelbrinck at mail.comet.net (Nancy Hurrelbrinck)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:40 2004
Subject: consumer inquiry
Message-ID: <19971027211619518.AAA224@nancyh.creative.net>

I'm considering purchasing a wood stove to place in my fireplace, and I'm
wondering if you might be able to direct me to a site with information for
consumers. I would like to get the most efficient, least polluting stove I
can afford. Any ideas?

thanks very much,

Nancy Hurrelbrinck
Charlottesville, Virginia

From verhaarp at janus.cqu.edu.au Tue Oct 28 05:40:29 1997
From: verhaarp at janus.cqu.edu.au (Peter Verhaart)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:40 2004
Subject: What, only one Spam message on our list?
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971028094330.006e43f8@janus.cqu.edu.au>

Dear Ronal and Tom,

As regards filtering the list for spam, I think it is much less work
for us, the receivers, to click on the garbage bin in the top left hand
corner than for either of you to spend even more of your spare time
monitoring the list.

I am sure most of us will be only mildly disturbed, in a measure our system
is quite capable of coping with, by the occasional spam message. Whoever
gets upset to a higher degree than just mentioned should consider not
participating in Internet activities.

To coin a phrase, it is like finding an occasional rock among the charcoal,
nothing to really worry about.

Keep up the good work and don't worry about spam. Eat it when you are really
hungry, just slice it and use a lot of chilli sauce.

Piet
Peter Verhaart 6 McDonald St Gracemere Q 4702 Australia
Phone: +61 79 331761 Fax: +61 79 331761 or 332112
E-mail:p.verhaart@cqu.edu.au

From skip.hayden at cc2smtp.nrcan.gc.ca Tue Oct 28 06:24:11 1997
From: skip.hayden at cc2smtp.nrcan.gc.ca (Skip Hayden)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:40 2004
Subject: wood decompostion/emissions in water
Message-ID: <9709288780.AA878048798@cc2smtp.nrcan.gc.ca>

I believe that I read in the Bioenergy or Stoves dialogue just a
short while ago

the someone wrote that wood submerged in water does not
decay to give off CO2 or CH4 emissions.

Is that correct? If so could you please RESEND THE COMMENT. I'm
sorry but I inadvertantly deleted it.

Any more info on this subject would also be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Skip Hayden
Advanced Combustion Technologies
ETB/CETC
Ottawa, Canada K1A 1M1

TEL: (613) 996-3186
FAX: (613) 992-9335
e-mail: skip.hayden@nrcan.gc.ca

From Kutesa at cardiff.ac.uk Wed Oct 29 04:58:09 1997
From: Kutesa at cardiff.ac.uk (NAYEBARE KUTESA)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:40 2004
Subject: Women in Uganda
Message-ID: <378F1D669F5@PARKCF2S.CF.AC.UK>

My name is Ms. Shartsi Kutesa and I am a Ugandan third year law
Student at the University of Wales,Cardiff. I have read with
intrest over the internet the work that Rawfffol is involved in, in
Afica. I am interested in knowing whether you have gone as far as
Uganda and how you have succedded over there. I would be grateful if
you would send me some information on your work in other countries in
Africa as well.
I look forward to hearing from you,
Miss Shartsi Kutesa

From toomas at efipa.estnet.ee Wed Oct 29 08:16:52 1997
From: toomas at efipa.estnet.ee (toomas laur)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:40 2004
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199710291319.PAA10833@doris.estnet.ee>

Dear Sir,
Our company is a subsidiary of Cetetherm Group in Baltic and we specialize in installation of the thermo-equipment in Baltic and Russian Federation market.
Our associates in our industry speak highly of your material briquetting and we would like to have more information about it.
Could you please send your current catalogue off equipment for briquetting and price-list ?

Yours faithfully,

Vitali Vinogradov
Project Manager

From toomas at efipa.estnet.ee Wed Oct 29 08:34:42 1997
From: toomas at efipa.estnet.ee (toomas laur)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:40 2004
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199710291337.PAA11170@doris.estnet.ee>

Yours faithfully,

Vitali Vinogradov
Project Manager
FROM: V.Vinogradov
EFIPA
Gildi 4
Tallinn EE0001
ESTONIA

Phone 372 6 410 692
Fax Phone 372 6 410 695

From larcon at sni.net Wed Oct 29 10:34:24 1997
From: larcon at sni.net (Ronal W. Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:40 2004
Subject: Women in Uganda
Message-ID: <v01540b00b07d008a6e08@[204.133.251.34]>

Shartsi -
We have members with experience especially in Ethiopia and Kenya,
but I don't recall any mention of work in Uganda by any of our list
members.

The following person will probably be able to help you to better
understand the stove expertise on our list:

David Beedie (Dr.)
School of Engineering, University of Wales, Cardiff, UK
01222 874683, FAX: 01222 762197 (home)
BeedieD@cardiff

If your interest is in trying to find better stoves for use in
Uganda, David can probably explain the exploratory work that is most
discussed on this list. We have had considerable discussion on the health
consequences of stoves such as are possibly used in Uganda.

Could you expand on the word "Rawfffol" below? We will need to
better understand your long range goal to be able to help.

Regards Ron

>My name is Ms. Shartsi Kutesa and I am a Ugandan third year law
>Student at the University of Wales,Cardiff. I have read with
>intrest over the internet the work that Rawfffol is involved in, in
>Afica. I am interested in knowing whether you have gone as far as
>Uganda and how you have succedded over there. I would be grateful if
>you would send me some information on your work in other countries in
>Africa as well.
>I look forward to hearing from you,
>Miss Shartsi Kutesa

Ronal W. Larson, PhD
21547 Mountsfield Dr.
Golden, CO 80401, USA
303/526-9629; FAX same with warning
larcon@sni.net

From ovencrft at nbn.com Wed Oct 29 14:48:16 1997
From: ovencrft at nbn.com (Alan Scott)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:41 2004
Subject: Women in Uganda
Message-ID: <199710291951.LAA10255@shell10.ba.best.com>

----------
> From: NAYEBARE KUTESA <Kutesa@cardiff.ac.uk>
> To: stoves@crest.org
> Subject: Women in Uganda
> Date: Wednesday, October 29, 1997 2:01 AM
>
> My name is Ms. Shartsi Kutesa and I am a Ugandan third year law
> Student at the University of Wales,Cardiff. I have read with
> intrest over the internet the work that Rawfffol is involved in, in
> Afica. I am interested in knowing whether you have gone as far as
> Uganda and how you have succedded over there. I would be grateful if
> you would send me some information on your work in other countries in
> Africa as well.
> I look forward to hearing from you,
> Miss Shartsi Kutesa

If your interest runs to simple solid fueled retained heat bake ovens, I
have information available. These improved oven designs are prooving
themselves to be popular in Africa, Thailand, Shi Lanka, Nepal, Chili,
Venezuela as well as in the advanced countries of N America, Japan,
Australia, New Zealand and Europe.
ALAN SCOTT

From REEDTB at compuserve.com Thu Oct 30 08:45:44 1997
From: REEDTB at compuserve.com (Thomas Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:41 2004
Subject: Global warming turning cool
Message-ID: <199710300845_MC2-25A6-C831@compuserve.com>

Thomas B. Reed; 303 278 0558 V; ReedTB@Compuserve.Com;
Colorado School of Mines & The Biomass Energy (non-profit)Foundation
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dear Ron et al:

Ron and I had a 20-30 inch early snowfall Fri-Sat. Now it is almost all
melted! We are assured by the weather man that this is not El Nino related
- cold air from Canada.

The weather man predicted only a few inches. I sympathize with the weather
man - but I don't take his predictions too seriously. Maybe that should be
our attitude on global warming, too.

I have been entertained almost daily with new articles on the dangers of
the eminent Global Warming. While I admire the motivation of the GW
people, I deplore their zeal.

However, I have seen quite a few telling arguments cautioning a slower
approach.
In particular, an editorial columnist in the Denver Post (Cal Thomas, a
commentator for NPR) says that Clinton's new zeal is based on the executive
summary of the 2,000 page UN report. (Who reads 2,000 page reports when
they can read the ES?)

However, this executive summary was not written by the climatologists that
wrote the main report. It was written by people chosen to be politically
correct. If you read the whole report, you find many "ifs ands and buts"
that don't appear in the summary.

Having listened to the GW debate for a decade, and formed my own opinions,
I PARTICULARLY RESENT that the GW zealots lump all those who disagree with
their extreme, unconsidered, agenda as tools of the oil companies and big
business. I have been working diligently for alternate energy for 20
years.

Don't panic, TOM REED

From larcon at sni.net Thu Oct 30 10:55:10 1997
From: larcon at sni.net (Ronal W. Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:41 2004
Subject: A diverted message from Stephen Allen
Message-ID: <v01540b06b07e5cb29204@[204.133.251.48]>

Stovers:
The following is welcome news: (Ron)

>To: stoves@crest.org
>Subject: Change of E.Mail Address
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>Sorry people...due to server problems, I have been off-line for a period
>of time. This has resulted in a change of E.Mail address.
>My previous address was Celtic1@IBM.net.........My new address is
>Celtic2@IBM.net
>
>Designs are being modified daily...and updates will be forthcoming.
>Sorry for the inconvenience.
>
>Steve:

Ronal W. Larson, PhD
21547 Mountsfield Dr.
Golden, CO 80401, USA
303/526-9629; FAX same with warning
larcon@sni.net

From larcon at sni.net Thu Oct 30 10:55:38 1997
From: larcon at sni.net (Ronal W. Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:41 2004
Subject: Women in Uganda
Message-ID: <v01540b03b07e52782af4@[204.133.251.48]>

Stovers:
I received the following private response that I believe was
intended for all on the list.

Shartsi:
Yours is exactly the type of communication that the stoves list
wishes to encourage. It is not easy for us to get to Uganda generally, but
I know your have received at least one other private communication
indicating a possibility of working with you. I hope others will also if
that is possible.

I am taking the liberty of signing you up for the stoves list and
apologize in advance if that is not helpful (which I believe it will be).
I think that it would be especially helpful for our list also to learn more
about Rawfffol's internet or e-mail address and how we can learn more about
that network. I have spent a total of about 2 years in Sudan, Zimbabwe,
and Ethiopia, and many on the list have had more experience in Africa.
Almost all (about 100 members now) are interested in trying to improve
stove designs for use by women all over the world. Uganda is probably not
unique - but local practices will be hugely important.

Much of our discussion on this list has been about designing rural
stoves to also make charcoal. They also, fortunately, appear to be quite
clean-burning. What is the experience in Sembabule with the use of
charcoal? Our list will benefit greatly from anything more you can
describe about current stove practices and fuel availability in Sembabule.

I think it is wonderful that you are still serving as an active
coordinator for MAWODA, while getting your law degree from Cardiff. Please
take care to finish that degree before you get too tied up with stoves.

Regards Ron

>Hallo Ron,
>I am glad you replied. Rawfffol as I understood it from the internet
>means, Rural African Womens Food Fuel and Feed On Line Network. I
>therefore presumed that you have done work in some African Countries
>as regards this area.
>My long range goal is to be able to invite people with expertise in
>this feild to come to Uganda, and in particular the district of
>Sembabule to teach the women how to use these stoves.
>I also happen to be coordinator for a local womens organization
>called MAWODA(Mawogola Womens Development Association) which unites
>all the women of the district of Sembabule. I will get in touch with
>your Cardiff contact and get back to you. Thank you for your
>cooperation.
>shartsi

Ronal W. Larson, PhD
21547 Mountsfield Dr.
Golden, CO 80401, USA
303/526-9629; FAX same with warning
larcon@sni.net

From CKEZAR34 at aol.com Thu Oct 30 11:39:56 1997
From: CKEZAR34 at aol.com (CKEZAR34@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:41 2004
Subject: Global warming turning cool
Message-ID: <971030114234_2069238111@mrin43.mail.aol.com>

In a message dated 10/30/97 1:50:37 PM, REEDTB@compuserve.com wrote:

>Having listened to the GW debate for a decade, and formed my own opinions,
>I PARTICULARLY RESENT that the GW zealots lump all those who disagree with
>their extreme, unconsidered, agenda as tools of the oil companies and big
>business. I have been working diligently for alternate energy for 20
>years.
>Don't panic, TOM REED
>

All -- here is another vote for Tom Reed's thoughtful approach --CA Kezar

From stevie2 at ix.netcom.com Thu Oct 30 12:05:08 1997
From: stevie2 at ix.netcom.com (Steve Segrest)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:41 2004
Subject: Global warming turning cool
In-Reply-To: <199710300845_MC2-25A6-C831@compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <3458BC46.36E536AA@ix.netcom.com>

Dear Tom,

The problem that our non-profit organization (Common Purpose) has in the
current GW Debate, is Fossil Fuel Interests taking the information like Cal
Thomas (and Fortune Magazine, WSJ) has presented, and then arguing NOTHING
NEEDS TO BE DONE -- ZERO -- ZILCH -- NADDA. And then seeing these argumnets
being implemented into Policy.

This week we posted a New York Times Article on our News Webpage
http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/2958/nytwarm.html

which discusses Congressional Actions where for example,
1. We can not increase auto fuel milege requirements (because smaller cars
kill people)
2. Foreign Oil Dependence (who cares??? price of gasoline is cheaper than
bottled water)
3. Requiring Manufacturers to label car tires so that consumers could tell
which ones
provided the best gasoline mileage (this is BIG GOVERNMENT telling us
what to do)
4. Requiring energy efficiency standards (BIG GOVERNMENT, no way!!!!!!!)

How about increasing biomass use to reduce SO2 and Acid Rain? -- SILLY!! We
already have pollution laws to take care of this (even though the costs in 1990
cost/benefit analysis used to determine what level of SO2 compliance was
acceptable economically is 15 times what the actual compliance cost is in
1997).

How about increasing biomass use to co-fire with coal in "staging reburn" to
reduce NOx? -- HEY, INCREASING NOx Standards with throw millions of Americans
out of work. Besides, the science is not proven that NOx is a problem.

How about allowing biomass facilities OPEN ACCESS to sell electricity to
Customers who want Green Energy -- BAD IDEA -- every Utility would go into
Chapter 11. Here in the South, Deregulation will probably be implemented
around the year 4000.

How about Tax Laws that provide a Level Playing Field for Renewable Energy
versus Fossil fuels? I guess we at Common Purpose (who include CPAs and Tax
Attorneys) along with the California Energy Commission (who also found tax
inequity) ARE JUST CRAZY. It is fine for Congress to eliminate Tax Credits for
biomass and other renewables as CORPORATE WELFARE, while at the same time
increasing Fossil Fuel Tax Benefits such as depletion allowances.

We can not scientifically argue GW, we are not Climate Scientists. But, our
opinion that GW is a grey area and SOMETHING SHOULD BE DONE is labeled as
RADICAL by those who want to make this issue either BLACK OR WHITE (either GW
is occurring or it isn't -- with no middle ground as to ANY ACTIONS which would
link environmental issues with energy issues).

If most Fossil Fuel Interests wanted to look at the science of GW objectively
(like you do) there would be no problem -- but most do not want to play by
Fair Rules, as they cite things like the elimination of outside barbecues --
where there agenda is not whether GW is occurring or not -- it is loss of
market share.

We encourage everyone reading this email to go to our Newspage at
http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/2958/news.html and look at the current
editorial by BUSINESS WEEK on the scientific consensus on global warming. We
do not consider BUSINESS WEEK a left wing, tree hugging, and radical
publication.

Steve Segrest

Thomas Reed wrote:

> Thomas B. Reed; 303 278 0558 V; ReedTB@Compuserve.Com;
> Colorado School of Mines & The Biomass Energy (non-profit)Foundation
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Dear Ron et al:
>
> Ron and I had a 20-30 inch early snowfall Fri-Sat. Now it is almost all
> melted! We are assured by the weather man that this is not El Nino related
> - cold air from Canada.
>
> The weather man predicted only a few inches. I sympathize with the weather
> man - but I don't take his predictions too seriously. Maybe that should be
> our attitude on global warming, too.
>
> I have been entertained almost daily with new articles on the dangers of
> the eminent Global Warming. While I admire the motivation of the GW
> people, I deplore their zeal.
>
> However, I have seen quite a few telling arguments cautioning a slower
> approach.
> In particular, an editorial columnist in the Denver Post (Cal Thomas, a
> commentator for NPR) says that Clinton's new zeal is based on the executive
> summary of the 2,000 page UN report. (Who reads 2,000 page reports when
> they can read the ES?)
>
> However, this executive summary was not written by the climatologists that
> wrote the main report. It was written by people chosen to be politically
> correct. If you read the whole report, you find many "ifs ands and buts"
> that don't appear in the summary.
>
> Having listened to the GW debate for a decade, and formed my own opinions,
> I PARTICULARLY RESENT that the GW zealots lump all those who disagree with
> their extreme, unconsidered, agenda as tools of the oil companies and big
> business. I have been working diligently for alternate energy for 20
> years.
>
> Don't panic, TOM REED

From dglickd at pipeline.com Thu Oct 30 15:10:24 1997
From: dglickd at pipeline.com (Dick Glick)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:41 2004
Subject: GW
Message-ID: <3458E9D9.B6B3C36E@pipeline.com>

Hello Renewable Energy and Co-Products Friends --

Several weeks ago, before the White House published its US
GW "solution". I emailed the President, my two senators and
my local congressman (knowing full well that these were real
black holes into which my messages were falling, but I felt
better afterwards) some things which I consider to be facts
on GW. References were to the first two html files that
have been attached. Of additional interest is, without
accepting some of the document's included conclusions, the
complete referenced html file, Emissions of Greenhouse Gases
1996, and similar documents.

I am not a signatory to the well publicized 2,500 scientist
GW document(s), just an old fashion physical chemist (37
years of teaching) now doing what I believe to be real
things in the real world in the area of interest indicated
in my salutatory.

The current situation reminds me of the position taken by a
California investigator pronouncing on his theoretically
determined definite causal relationship between cancer and
magnetic fields generated by high voltage power lines. When
the facts were determined completely refuting his theory, he
indicated that he believed in his theoretical conclusion,
who cares about the facts. Who does care about the facts?
Who, in fact, knows the facts?

Best, Dick

http://science.msfc.nasa.gov/newhome/headlines/essd06oct97_1.htm
http://science.msfc.nasa.gov/newhome/essd/essd_strat_temp.htm
http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/1605/1605a.html

From panalytics at juno.com Fri Oct 31 00:35:03 1997
From: panalytics at juno.com (Nikhil Desai)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:41 2004
Subject: stoves-digest V1 #303
In-Reply-To: <199710300700.CAA19863@solstice.crest.org>
Message-ID: <19971031.003556.11774.13.panalytics@juno.com>

I read with some interest Ron's reference to some previous discussion of
health consequences of stoves that might "possibly" be used in Uganda.
Are this group's archives available on the web? If not, would anybody
have saved that discussion? Any experimental data anywhere?

Thanks in advance.

Nikhil

From larcon at sni.net Fri Oct 31 08:28:40 1997
From: larcon at sni.net (Ronal W. Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:41 2004
Subject: stoves-digest V1 #303
Message-ID: <v01540b00b07f310f61bf@[204.133.251.25]>

Nikhil - see below:

>I read with some interest Ron's reference to some previous discussion of
>health consequences of stoves that might "possibly" be used in Uganda.
>Are this group's archives available on the web?

Ron: Yes - see "www.crest.org" and then look up the stoves archives. The
actual health consequence data is not yet very good and I don't think you
will be satisfied with what you find there on the health aspects of
charcoal-making stoves. The data is more circumstantial. Essentially no
visible smoke and little irritation to eyes usually.
The few measurements of CO seem pretty low - see especially the
measurements of Alex English. I reported on one very quick quantitative CO
test. Elsen Karstad has apparently recently given one recent incarnation
of his two-can, charcoal-making stove to Kirk Smith (or someone with Kirk)
and possibly Kirk can report on any tests he may have been able to make.
The problem is that all the work on this stove seems to have been
conducted by those without funds and laboratory equipment (with the
exception of Alex who has some of the latter)
.

If not, would anybody
>have saved that discussion? Any experimental data anywhere?
>
>Thanks in advance.
>
>Nikhil

Nikhil - Hope that you can help solve some part of the measurement problem
for charcoal-making stoves. I'm sure we can find stoves for you to test.

Regards Ron

Ronal W. Larson, PhD
21547 Mountsfield Dr.
Golden, CO 80401, USA
303/526-9629; FAX same with warning
larcon@sni.net

From jackson at engr.orst.edu Fri Oct 31 15:52:20 1997
From: jackson at engr.orst.edu (Psychadel)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:41 2004
Subject: Thermodynamic combustion properties of wood
Message-ID: <345A45B1.3A63@engr.orst.edu>

As part of a thermal/fluids system design project, I am in the process
of designing a woodburning stove for use in an isolated location. I
have as yet been unable to find specific information concerning the
thermodynamic values associated with the combustion of wood in general.
If you have any resources that have been of use to you in these respects
please reply. Especially any internet available references, if any.

From marc at fedex.com Fri Oct 31 16:24:16 1997
From: marc at fedex.com (Marc Roy)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:41 2004
Subject: Chambers stove parts
Message-ID: <199710312127.AA22511@gateway.fedex.com>

Hello,
Do you carry parts for Chambers stoves? I have a model MR-9-H-1 (gas)
on which we broke the oven control knob (dial) off the stem. It appears
that we'll need the whole valve assembly but cannot find it locally.
Any suggestions? Thanks.

BioEnergy Lists: Improved Biomass Cooking Stoves

October 1997 Biomass Cooking Stoves Archive