September 1998 Gasification Archive

For more information to help people develop better stoves for cooking with biomass fuels in developing regions, please see our web site: http://www.bioenergylists.org

From english at adan.kingston.net Tue Sep 1 06:37:45 1998
From: english at adan.kingston.net (*.English)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:03 2004
Subject: Webpage correction.
Message-ID: <199809011048.GAA17916@adan.kingston.net>

Dear Stovers,
There was an error of duplication and omission. Please re-check the
Webpage information on the Thermette.

Alex

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From mheat at mha-net.org Tue Sep 1 07:22:05 1998
From: mheat at mha-net.org (Norbert Senf)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:03 2004
Subject: Elementary Wood Combustion
In-Reply-To: <199808311231.OAA18084@silicon.tue.nl>
Message-ID: <199809011132.HAA07803@tor-smtp2.netcom.ca>

At 03:12 PM 31/08/98 +0000, Kevin Chisholm wrote:
(snip)
>Particulates:
>
>There are basically two kinds of particulates: Ash, which is a result
>of turbulence and carry-over, and insufficient settlement space, and
>Soots, as a result of poor combustion, and the carry-over of tars and
>incompleted combustion.

There is a lot of confusion about the term "particulates", particularly (no
pun intended) as it translates into different languages. In Germany, for
example, the term is "staub", which means "dust", and German "staub"
numbers are lower than North American PM-10 (particulates smaller than 10
microns) numbers.

Ash and soot (carbon) are non-soluble in acetone, whereas tar is soluble.
With clean appliances such as masonry heaters, the non soluble fraction of
particulates is about 60%. With dirty appliances such as old technology
"airtight" heating stoves, where condensed tars deposit on the flue lining
walls, the soluble fraction is probably 90% or greater. So, in this
instance, most of the particulates are small droplets of liquid tar.

This is why particulate numbers are so slippery. If you extract hot flue
gas from wood combustion and filter it, many of the tars can still be in
the gaseous phase, and they will blow right through the filter. In order
to simulate what happens in the real world, in terms of public health
aspects, you have to mix the exhaust gas with air, which cools it and
condenses the lighter tars. This is the purpose of a dilution tunnel, and
is the methodology specified in US-EPA Method 5 - it is used to simulate
what actually happens in an airshed where wood combustion is causing an air
quality problem.

Best.........Norbert Senf
----------------------------------------
Norbert Senf---------- mheat@mha-net.org
Masonry Stove Builders
RR 5, Shawville------- www.mha-net.org/msb
Quebec J0X 2Y0-------- fax:-----819.647.6082
---------------------- voice:---819.647.5092

From fbouvet at icrc.org Tue Sep 1 09:09:52 1998
From: fbouvet at icrc.org (Franck Bouvet)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:03 2004
Subject: Large Canteens kerosene stoves
Message-ID: <41256672.004DC04A.00@gvalnmta.icrc.org>

Dear Peter,

MANY THKS FOR THIS EMAIL.

The first one who has news from the CUBAN RED CROSS contacts the other, OK
?

Regarding the possibility to put several burners under one pan, I had
actually the same idea and I will try to contact REDI to develop this
option.

Kind Rgds

From woodcoal at mailbox.alkor.ru Tue Sep 1 09:39:18 1998
From: woodcoal at mailbox.alkor.ru (Woodcoal)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:03 2004
Subject: Forwarding Tom Reed on Dr. Yury and Samovars
Message-ID: <199809011349.RAA25600@ns.alkor.ru>

Stovers:
I know about samovar from the art and historical literature much more than
from technical. The sole information is known for me, that temperature of
leaving gas about 200 degrees Cels. Samovar was the very important part of
a life in Russia 19 centuries and earlier. The Russian furnace was the
device, which allowed to live in heat in conditions of Russian colds at
small expenses of fire wood. But Russian furnace very much inertion. It
began to heat at 6 o'clock in the morning, but the food was ready only at 2
hours past of half-day. Breakfast prepared with the help samovar. In the
morning eating pies, which have made yesterday, it heated on samovar. The
eggs cooked too on samovar. The products from the rich test cooked in
boiling water samovar. The Russian furnace and samovar made system. Coal
for samovar took in the Russian furnace (it left in ashes, when stopped
work of the furnace).
The efficiency samovar without accounts is visible that is heat made from
within, and to stop burning very easily, it is enough to close by a cover a
pipe.
The pitch can be formed on a wall of a pipe, while water cold. When
temperature will increase, it will burn out. If to put in a pipe it is a
lot of wood fuel (more than on 1/3 heights) the pitch rises on a pipe and
flows down on an outside wall. I observed it in samovar. It is a pity, but
there are more technical details at me is not present.
The Russian furnace now can be seen only in a museum (Kiji, Archangelsk).
It occupied almost half of all area in old houses. It required a lot of
heavy work (served the women). It was meaningful, when in family there were
many peoples. Now it is a history, but many elderly people love to
recollect, as in childhood slept on the Russian furnace, as was warmly and
cosy and as with the help it treated cold and other illnesses.
Yury
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From Robbcpc at aol.com Tue Sep 1 09:42:23 1998
From: Robbcpc at aol.com (Robbcpc@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:03 2004
Subject: Samovars
Message-ID: <8f9b33cf.35ebfbfc@aol.com>

Stovers,

I am intrigued by the recent discussion regarding Samovars. While living in
Iran for six years during the 1970's, I was able to acquire a collection of
both Russian- and Iranian-made Samovars. We used them in the house for
keeping a constant supply of hot water for serving the mandatory tea when
friends and guest would drop by. They also added much welcomed humidity and
warmth to the room, especially in the very cold winters.

Charcoal was the fuel, which would be started in a small wire basket attached
to a one meter chain. A small amount of kindling would be added to about 100g
of charcoal in the basket, after lighting the kindling, the basket would be
whirled with considerable vigor (outside!) until the charcoal was glowing
bright. Within minutes after dropping the glowing charcoal down the center
chamber, the water would be hot enough for making tea. By periodically
feeling the outside of the Samovar, it was simple to know when to add a few
more chunks of charcoal. Waste heat was captured and tea steeped by keeping a
small brass tea pot sitting on top of the center chamber of the Samovar. In
this way, tea was always hot and ready for pouring. (By the way, Iranians
consider a guest in the house as a "gift of God" and shower them with gracious
hospitality - first by serving tea with large lumps of sugar (on the side)
seemingly within seconds of arrival. In case you are wondering, the lumps of
sugar are first put in your mouth, then the hot tea is "filtered" through the
sugar lump.)

The Russian-made Samovars are especially a marvelous work of art accented by
the myriad of "Tax Stamps" dating back to the early 1800’s. Some models, with
detachable legs and spigot, were made for use by the migrating tribes
("traveling Samovars"). The bodies of the Iranian Samovars were most
typically spherical, while the Russian Samovars always seemed to be
cylindrical.

Robb Walt
Community Power Corporation

From mheat at mha-net.org Tue Sep 1 12:27:20 1998
From: mheat at mha-net.org (Norbert Senf)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:04 2004
Subject: Forwarding Tom Reed on Dr. Yury and Samovars
In-Reply-To: <199809011349.RAA25600@ns.alkor.ru>
Message-ID: <199809011636.MAA28560@tor-smtp1.netcom.ca>

At 05:51 PM 01/09/98 +0400, Yury wrote:
(snip)
>The Russian furnace now can be seen only in a museum (Kiji, Archangelsk).
>It occupied almost half of all area in old houses. It required a lot of
>heavy work (served the women). It was meaningful, when in family there were
>many peoples. Now it is a history, but many elderly people love to
>recollect, as in childhood slept on the Russian furnace, as was warmly and
>cosy and as with the help it treated cold and other illnesses.

For an article on contemporary Russian furnaces in Beloruse, see:

http://www.cam.org/~pyromas/articlee.html

----------------------------------------
Norbert Senf---------- mheat@mha-net.org
Masonry Stove Builders
RR 5, Shawville------- www.mha-net.org/msb
Quebec J0X 2Y0-------- fax:-----819.647.6082
---------------------- voice:---819.647.5092

From gpk at physics.unipune.ernet.in Wed Sep 2 03:25:47 1998
From: gpk at physics.unipune.ernet.in (Priyadarshini Karve(SBO))
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:04 2004
Subject: nonedible oils as fuel
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980902125601.11119A-100000@physics>

Dear Stovers,
I was away for a few days and on my return saw a lot of discussion
on use of jatropha oil as fuel. That is a very interesting subject for me
because several species yielding nonedible oils grow abundantly in India
and I have always heard a lot about their potential as substitutes for
petroleum derivative fuels. As some of you are working in this area, I
thought this may be of interest to you: ARTI's agricultural research
dvision has developed simple nursery techniques like rooting of cuttings
for cloning elite trees yielding non-edible oils. The species we have
worked on are Pongamia pinnata, Callophylum inophyllum, Terminalia
bellerica, Jatropha curcas, Madhuka indica, etc. If the twigs are taken
from mature plants, the cloned plants start flowering right from the first
year onwards. We have established a mother nursery by selecting high
yielding plants from the natural flora. We can provide the plantlets as
well as training in the cultivation technique. Interested people may
contact me.
With regards,
Priyadarshini Karve.

From gpk at physics.unipune.ernet.in Wed Sep 2 04:18:30 1998
From: gpk at physics.unipune.ernet.in (Priyadarshini Karve(SBO))
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:04 2004
Subject: a new stove model
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980902133344.11119D-100000@physics>

Dear stovers,
This is to report on a new stove model developed by ARTI.

This looks similar to our two pot hole mud stove (you can see the
pictures on the site maintained by Mr. Alex English), however, the first
pot hole is actually our single pot hole stove Grihalaxmi and the second
pot hole has been replaced by a cavity with a wooden lid. This serves the
function of a hotbox. The food is kept on the pot hole till the water
starts boiling and then the pot is transferred to the hotbox. The mud
walls of the hotbox provide sufficient insulation to cook the food item
and to keep it warm for 3-4 hours. The Grihalaxmi stove itself has an
efficiency of 30% and the hotbox gives an additional 30% fuel saving.
Although the cooking time per dish is doubled, the food remains on the
fire for much less time than usual. This has several advantages.

1. As the residence time of a food item at high temperature is low, loss
of vitamins is avoided. Also as most of the cooking occurs in an enclosed
chamber, loss of volatiles from the food is avoided. There is no
overcooking, no charring of food, and no caramelisation of starches and
sugar.

2. We have observed that although a two pot hole stove is more efficient,
most housewives prefer to use two single pot hole stoves rather than one
two pot hole stove. This is because a two pot hole stove works the best
only when both the pot holes are occupied and this creates problems when
only one dish is to be cooked. On the other hand, the net fuel consumption
in the case of using two single pot hole stoves is higher than that for a
two pot hole stove. With this new pot hole + hotbox stove, even one stove
suffices to cook the meal of an avrage sized family (about 6 persons).
Thus the actual saving in fuel (and consequently the time that the
housewife spends in collecting firewood) is much higher.

3. Initially we had tried to promote a metalic hotbox to be used in
conjecture with an ordinary stove. This failed miserably as the housewives
tended to use the box for grain storage or in some cases even as chairs!
In this new stove, the hotbox is a part of the stove and cannot be used
for any other purposes. As it is made of clay, the cost is also lower than
the metallic counterpart.

We will now introduce this stove in the villages that we annually
adopt for trying out our new designs and get users' feedback on the
design.

Comments/suggestions from all of you will be most welcome.

With regards,

Priyadarshini Karve.

From K.K.Prasad at phys.tue.nl Wed Sep 2 05:28:47 1998
From: K.K.Prasad at phys.tue.nl (K. K. Prasad)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:04 2004
Subject: Chimney height, insulation and the pot as heat exchanger
Message-ID: <199809020939.LAA26688@silicon.tue.nl>

Dear Dean and other stovers

I have two comments on your posting.

(i) That is an extremely clever way of testing a stove. The total
amount of water evaporated is a really neat indicator of the
efficiency of a stoves and is in conformity with the more formal
approach adopted by our group - the Woodburning Stove Group at
Eindhoven - when we were in business.

(ii) Chimney height increase increases the air drawn through the
stove thus reducing the temperature of the combustion products with a
consequent decrease in heat transfer to the pan. needless to say the
combustion quality will also have deteriorated.

Prasad
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From larcon at sni.net Wed Sep 2 14:17:50 1998
From: larcon at sni.net (Ronal W. Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:04 2004
Subject: Karve on nonedible oils as fuel
Message-ID: <v01540b00b2130f31c242@[204.133.28.31]>

Stovers,

Today, Priyadarshini said in part:

> <snip> We have established a mother nursery by selecting high
>yielding plants from the natural flora. We can provide the plantlets as
>well as training in the cultivation technique. Interested people may
>contact me.
>

Three points/questions:

1) This offer was wonderful - and hopefully all who can will find a way to
make sure that this doesn't break you financially.
As some know, I am helping a small rainforest part of Southwestern
Ethiopia called Kafa (original home of coffee). I imagine that all your
species will grow extremely well there (I've never seen a better climate -
with 2 meters of rainfall annually with some rain every month). I will
look into ways to get them transferredinto Kafa for tests.
Could you say a bit more about the economics of growing these
non-edible seed-oils? What are the preferred uses in India? Stoves?
Lamps?

2) The original request was for ideas on using Jatropha for lamps and
cooking. Is there any technical design work in your organization on
either?
As an aside - that original June request came in from Jonathan
Otto. My wife and I stopped in to visit Jonathan and his wife about a
month ago in Vermont during our vacation. I want to affirm that
information sent in to the list on the lamp/usages of these non-edible oils
will find a very dedicated and knowledgable individual in Jonathan. He and
his wife have served overseas in many locations and he has associates
working on these topics at the moment.

3) Several years ago, we had a short flurry of messages on root fuels. I
have checked these for use in charcoal-making stoves and they did very
well. Their advantage is single-year rapid growth in more arid
environments. Does anyone know if there any non-edible root-fuel oils
(with a preference for those where the pressed material might also be
pyrolyzed)?

Priyadarshini - thanks again for a very kind offer. Ron

Ronal W. Larson, PhD
21547 Mountsfield Dr.
Golden, CO 80401, USA
303/526-9629; FAX same with warning
larcon@sni.net

From shaase at neosdenver.com Wed Sep 2 14:36:41 1998
From: shaase at neosdenver.com (Scott Haase)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:04 2004
Subject: Root fuels
In-Reply-To: <v01540b00b2130f31c242@[204.133.28.31]>
Message-ID: <35ED92D3.A1960931@neosdenver.com>

Ron:

You might speak with Gene Shultz about the possibility of getting oils
from root fuels , but to my knowledge it has not been looked into. I know
that at one point Gene and Jack Whittier had a project where they
(I think in conjunction with New Mexico State Univeristy) tried to make
ethanol from the roots of cucurbita foetidissima (also known as
Buffalo Gourd) without success. The mashed up roots were too stringy and
gummed up the processing equipment. Gene Shultz would know though.

Scott

Scott Haase
Manager, Denver Operations
NEOS Corporation
215 Union Blvd., Suite 610
Lakewood, CO 80228 USA
Phone: (303) 980-1969
Fax: (303) 980-1030
email: shaase@neosdenver.com

Ronal W. Larson wrote:
3) Several years ago, we had a short flurry of messages
on root fuels. I
have checked these for use in charcoal-making stoves and they did very
well. Their advantage is single-year rapid growth in more arid
environments. Does anyone know if there any non-edible root-fuel
oils
(with a preference for those where the pressed material might also
be
pyrolyzed)?

Priyadarshini - thanks again for a very kind offer. Ron

Ronal W. Larson, PhD
21547 Mountsfield Dr.
Golden, CO 80401, USA
303/526-9629; FAX same with warning
larcon@sni.net

From elk at arcc.or.ke Thu Sep 3 05:34:47 1998
From: elk at arcc.or.ke (E. L. Karstad)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:04 2004
Subject: Carbonising Sawdust- Downdraft Kiln Results
Message-ID: <v01520d02b214135c180a@[199.2.222.131]>

Well, I've hit the wall on this approach I guess. I'm unable to carbonise
more than 25 kg/hr using the downdraft carboniser in it's various
configurations.

Using the 20 cm (dia) by 6 m (tall) chimney with a firebox in the bottom
and some secondary air holes (20 X 0.5 cm) around the base as a device to
generate flue suction down through the open topped kilns and to flare the
volatiles, I've had very similar results from the following kilns attached
to the chimney:

1 X 1.3 m dia. kiln
1 X 2 m. dia kiln
2 X 2 m. diam kilns

All sawdust is air dried. A marginal improvement was noted with courser
(larger particle size) sawdust.

There is a pretty equal trade-off between increasing surface area and
thereby reducing airflow per m2 and decreasing surface area and thereby
increasing airflow. Output remains consistant.

As the depth of the carbonised sawdust particles increases over the
duration of the burn, one observes a decrease in rate of pyrolysis.
Emptying the kiln mid-way through a shift has no net advantage because of
the down time involved.

This is frustrating. Here's a classic 'wall' that needs to be breached or
surmounted before further progress can be made.

More flue 'suction' is needed- incresed airflow-, but I'm hesitant to
complicate the unit with mechanical attachments like a fan.

As always- the groups input is much appreciated.

Otherwise, the market for my extruded and sun-dried briquettes is expanding
and production is up to 2 tons/day (on a good day). A recent application is
for keeping piglets warm.

elk

_____________________________
Elsen Karstad
P.O Box 24371 Nairobi, Kenya
Tel/Fax:254 2 884437
E-mail: elk@arcc.or.ke
_____________________________

From larcon at sni.net Thu Sep 3 08:18:19 1998
From: larcon at sni.net (Ronal W. Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:04 2004
Subject: Seedoils from buffalo gourd
Message-ID: <v01540b01b2141762f59a@[204.133.28.30]>

Stovers: The following message came in from the researcher mentioned by
list-member Scott Haase earlier today - Dr. Gene Schultz. Dr. Schultz is a
long-term, skilled researcher in bio-fuels, as you can tell from the
following message. For Scott, Jack Whittier and Dr. Schultz, several years
ago, I tested some of their buffalo gourd rootfuel in a charcoal-making
stove. It behaved well and produced a charcoal comparable to that from
wood (Dr. Schultz's comment below about charcoal refers to combustion -
not to pyrolysis). The surprise to me was how hard and tough the fuel was
in its dried form. It almost could be used for hammer heads. But when
just coming out of the ground, before drying, it is apparently pretty
easily cut into strips and shapes appropriate for a specific cooking use.
I say "apparently" because I have not seen it in that form.

Dr. Schultz:
1. Below, you state that "We have'nt done many combustion studies,
but do know that rootfuel is a low-power fuel compared to woodfuels of
similar size and shape." Just for clarification, would you confirm that
you are not saying that this is a "low-energy" fuel? (Presumably about
like wood - 18 MJ/kG?)
I believe that in a charcoal-making stove (or any stove for that
matter), we can all control the power (kilowatt) rating by the total
surface area of the fuel supply. Could you estimate how much smaller in
diameter the fuel would have to be to have comparable power (not energy)
ratings?
I am intrigued by your reference to a 30% savings for this reason -
I wonder if anyone knows if all hard woods (perhaps such as ebony) have a
similar characteristic. I believe these harder, denser materials are also
harder to light, so one goes smaller in size.

2. In order to avoid getting into the issue of using edible oils
(like peanut oil) for lighting - do you know of any non-edible oils that
could come from annual root crops? Should we expect that non-edible oils
are best obtained from trees?

What sort of both rootfuel (kG/hectare-yr) and oil yield (perhaps
liters per hectare-year) might one obtain from the seeds of the buffalo
gourd - under different rainfall or irrigation conditions? Under what
circumstances do you think this particular plant will find its best niche?

I ask mainly because the lighting issue is coupled with the rural
stove issue. A good bit of wood is consumed in rural households from open
fires - just to have some lighting. As Jonathan Otto has been implying, a
locally produced oil for lighting alone could lead to less deforestation,
desertification, etc - and might lead as well to a more efficient set of
stoves.
My own personal reason for asking: In charcoal-making stoves, the
required air-tightness may mitigate against their use if they don't easily
emit some light - and transparency is not easily purchased in rural
households. The transparent ceramics in modern stoves are coming down in
price but they are not cheap.

3. Thanks very much for joining our group again.

Regards Ron

>From: GeneShu@aol.com
>Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 22:37:21 EDT
>To: larcon@sni.net
>Mime-Version: 1.0
>Subject: Seedoils from buffalo gourd
>
>Ron: Scott Haase sent your inquiry to me. I understand you are interested in
>knowing more about the seedoil from Cucurbita foetidissima (buffalo gourd in
>US, calabacilla loca in Mexico). This wild gourd/melon plant has a high yield
>of seeds which contain about 33% oil, and the oil is of high quality for food
>purposes. Similar in some respects to soy oil, and in other respects to
>sunflower oil. The oil will burn, of course, like other seedoils whether
>edible or not, and via transesterification it could be converted to biodiesel.
>However, no one to my knowledge has done studies on the seedoil for fuel, only
>food uses.
>
>Let me emphasize that there is no oil in the roots of this species, or in the
>roots of the other species of cucurbits with large taproots that we have
>studied as rootfuel. On dry basis, rootfuel is virtually all starch (about
>2/3) and cellulosic fiber (about 1/3). There is a small amount of lignin that
>seems to be from the skin, only, and there is mineral matter which forms ash,
>of course. But no oil in the roots.
>
>The fresh roots of Cucurbita foetidissima, and probably the fresh roots of
>other large tap-rooted cucurbits as well, can be used for ethanol production
>by conventional fermentation of the starch content of the roots (2/3 of the
>dry roots). As Scott mentioned, we did raise funds from the State of New
>Mexico to carry out a short-lived project on fuel ethanol from Cucurbita
>foetidissima roots in the early 1980s: agronomy, ethanol production (small-
>scale), and prelim economics.
>
>Our most severe technical problem was size reduction of the long cellulosic
>fibers in the fresh roots. Some fibers, the ones that weren't cut finely
>enough, did indeed clog the plumbing. However, the engineers were not
>impressed. They felt this problem could be readily solved by using a different
>type of size reduction equipment that they prescribed. We were scheduled to
>buy this equipment in preparation for the third season, but the New Mexico
>petroleum industry, anti-ethanol to the core, lobbied the State legislature
>against our project, successfully, and funds were not granted for a third
>season.
>
>If anyone is interested, I can share the papers and reports on the ethanol-
>related work. My conviction is that ethanol from Cucurbita foetidissima roots
>is not in the cards in the U.S. w/o subsidy, but that doesn't mean that it
>won't be practical elsewhere in the semiarid world where ethanol is or might
>be a transport fuel option. By the way, the cellulosic fibers can be
>anaerobically digested and the fuel gas used as a source of energy for driving
>off water from the ethanol.
>
>Finally, to clarify the term "rootfuel," let me say that the rootfuel idea
>(sun-dried roots of Cucurbita foetidissima as a solid biofuel) was conceived
>after the ill-fated fuel ethanol project in New Mexico. To make a long story
>short, I found that the fresh taproots of Cucurbita foetidissima (and, later,
>from similar wild melon species), could be rapidly dried in the sun, and used
>as a solid fuel in open fires, or in any kind of woodstove. We call it
>"rootfuel."
>
>If well dried, rootfuel (which has very little lignin, and is almost entirely
>starch/cellulose) can be burned with very little smoke production, and very
>little charcoal formation. If the roots are only partially dry, smoke will be
>generated. In our earlier studies we didn't know to allow enough time for
>drying, and so we reported some smoke production. Also, if the fire is starved
>for air, rootfuel will certainly give off smoke, even if bone dry. Most of the
>women who tested dry rootfuel overseas for us were skilled at fire building
>and maintenance, but a minority needed instruction on how to build and
>maintain a fire, so that adequate air would be supplied.
>
>We have'nt done many combustion studies, but do know that rootfuel is a low-
>power fuel compared to woodfuels of similar size and shape. Also, we found
>that about 30% less rootfuel, by weight, was needed in comparison with
>hardwood fuel to cook a pot of rice. This may be related to the lower rate of
>energy release from the rootfuel. Ignitability of rootfuel is similar to that
>of woodfuel.
>
>Agronomists at NMSU Ag Science Center, Farmington, NM, have gotten a lot of
>good experience growing Cucurbita foetidissima. There is a substantial amount
>of literature on this, now, and also on the acceptability tests that we
>conducted in villages in Mexico, Brazil, Zimbabwe and other places, on a
>variety of stoves and open fires.
>
>We also have measured RSP values in rural homes of northeast Brazil and
>central Mexico in which indoor smoke is obviously a serious health problem. I
>will be happy to provide copies of papers to anyone interested in finding
>relatively clean-burning solid fuels as replacement for smokey traditional
>fuels. Please send a mailing address with the request. Cheers! Gene Shultz,
>(geneshu@aol.com)
>

From kchishol at fox.nstn.ca Thu Sep 3 09:51:02 1998
From: kchishol at fox.nstn.ca (Kevin Chisholm)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:04 2004
Subject: Carbonising Sawdust- Downdraft Kiln Results
In-Reply-To: <v01520d02b214135c180a@[199.2.222.131]>
Message-ID: <E0zEZx8-0005g2-00@mail1.halifax.istar.net>

> Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 12:43:11 +0300 (EAT)
> To: stoves@crest.org
> From: elk@arcc.or.ke (E. L. Karstad)
> Subject: Carbonising Sawdust- Downdraft Kiln Results

Dear Elk

Glad to hear of your progress, but sorry your rates aren't up to a
range that you are pleased with.

1: Have you had an opportunity to configure a draft gaugeto give you
better insights into how to manage things in a way to maximize
suction?
...del...
>
> Using the 20 cm (dia) by 6 m (tall) chimney with a firebox in the bottom
> and some secondary air holes (20 X 0.5 cm) around the base as a device to
> generate flue suction down through the open topped kilns and to flare the
> volatiles, I've had very similar results from the following kilns attached
> to the chimney:
>
> 1 X 1.3 m dia. kiln
> 1 X 2 m. dia kiln
> 2 X 2 m. diam kilns
>
2: "Some" secondary air holes is vague.... perhaps you have too much,
or too little secondary air for off-gas combustion. Too little, and
you have residual smoke, too much and you dilute the stack gas
temperature. You may find that you have to start with "many"
secondary air holes, and during the course of the burn, plug off
some, as evolution of volatiles decreases, to maintain the highest
attainable temperature at the base of the stack.

Do you have a thermometer in the stack? This would be very helpful.

> All sawdust is air dried. A marginal improvement was noted with courser
> (larger particle size) sawdust.
>
3: More important than absolute size is the size range of the
sawdust. A "long size range" will lead to minimum voids for gas flow.
Imagine if you have 3 cubic feet of ball bearings... 1" dia, 1/4"
dia, and 1/16" dia. The 1/4" balls fill the voids between the 1"
balls, and the 1/16" balls fill most of the remaining intersticial
spaces. You could make charcoal faster if you did the 1" first, then
the 1/2", then the 1/16", than if you mixed them all together.

> There is a pretty equal trade-off between increasing surface area and
> thereby reducing airflow per m2 and decreasing surface area and thereby
> increasing airflow. Output remains consistant.
>
This means you are "stack draft limited."

> As the depth of the carbonised sawdust particles increases over the
> duration of the burn, one observes a decrease in rate of pyrolysis.
> Emptying the kiln mid-way through a shift has no net advantage because of
> the down time involved.
>
4: It would require considerable re-design, but is there a way that
you could extract the charcoal during operation, without the need to
shut down?

> This is frustrating. Here's a classic 'wall' that needs to be breached or
> surmounted before further progress can be made.
>
> More flue 'suction' is needed- incresed airflow-, but I'm hesitant to
> complicate the unit with mechanical attachments like a fan.
>
5:1: WHat about installing a few more lengths of flue pipe on the
existing stack?
5:2 What about installing a second stack in parallel with the first?
If you try a second stack, you should include "balancing dampers" on
both stacks, to ensure that flows are balanced between both stacks.

You should exhaust the static possibilities before considering a
dynamic solution.

> As always- the groups input is much appreciated.
>
I hope the input is helping you toward greater production and lower
costs.

Kevin Chisholm
Stoves List SPONSORS and ARCHIVES:
http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/stoves-list-archive/
Stoves Webpage
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From dstill at epud.org Thu Sep 3 15:11:30 1998
From: dstill at epud.org (Dean Still)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:04 2004
Subject: a new stove model
Message-ID: <199809031936.MAA06976@epud.org>

Dear Priyadarshini Karve,

I wonder if it might be possible to insulate around the pot in the hotbox
section of the stove with wood ash or another non combustible substance. I
understand that earth has an R value of only about .25 R per inch of
thickness. In our studies we needed 7 R to cook pinto beans. A low mass
insulator retains enough heat to cook for a prolonged time and does not
absorb and rob heat from the pot.

Your new stove sounds very interesting and efficient. Would it be of any
help for my students to perform any tests for you? Say to analyze different
earthen or ash combinations that might make up a hotbox? I am always
looking for real world tasks to put before them...

Dean Still
Aprovecho Research Center
----------
> From: Priyadarshini Karve(SBO) <gpk@physics.unipune.ernet.in>
> To: stoves@crest.org
> Subject: a new stove model
> Date: Wednesday, September 02, 1998 11:59 AM
>
> Dear stovers,
> This is to report on a new stove model developed by ARTI.
>
> This looks similar to our two pot hole mud stove (you can see the
> pictures on the site maintained by Mr. Alex English), however, the first
> pot hole is actually our single pot hole stove Grihalaxmi and the second
> pot hole has been replaced by a cavity with a wooden lid. This serves the
> function of a hotbox. The food is kept on the pot hole till the water
> starts boiling and then the pot is transferred to the hotbox. The mud
> walls of the hotbox provide sufficient insulation to cook the food item
> and to keep it warm for 3-4 hours. The Grihalaxmi stove itself has an
> efficiency of 30% and the hotbox gives an additional 30% fuel saving.
> Although the cooking time per dish is doubled, the food remains on the
> fire for much less time than usual. This has several advantages.
>
> 1. As the residence time of a food item at high temperature is low, loss
> of vitamins is avoided. Also as most of the cooking occurs in an enclosed
> chamber, loss of volatiles from the food is avoided. There is no
> overcooking, no charring of food, and no caramelisation of starches and
> sugar.
>
> 2. We have observed that although a two pot hole stove is more efficient,
> most housewives prefer to use two single pot hole stoves rather than one
> two pot hole stove. This is because a two pot hole stove works the best
> only when both the pot holes are occupied and this creates problems when
> only one dish is to be cooked. On the other hand, the net fuel
consumption
> in the case of using two single pot hole stoves is higher than that for a
> two pot hole stove. With this new pot hole + hotbox stove, even one stove
> suffices to cook the meal of an avrage sized family (about 6 persons).
> Thus the actual saving in fuel (and consequently the time that the
> housewife spends in collecting firewood) is much higher.
>
> 3. Initially we had tried to promote a metalic hotbox to be used in
> conjecture with an ordinary stove. This failed miserably as the
housewives
> tended to use the box for grain storage or in some cases even as chairs!
> In this new stove, the hotbox is a part of the stove and cannot be used
> for any other purposes. As it is made of clay, the cost is also lower
than
> the metallic counterpart.
>
> We will now introduce this stove in the villages that we annually
> adopt for trying out our new designs and get users' feedback on the
> design.
>
> Comments/suggestions from all of you will be most welcome.
>
> With regards,
>
> Priyadarshini Karve.
>
>
> Stoves List SPONSORS and ARCHIVES:
> http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/stoves-list-archive/
> Stoves Webpage
> http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
> For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
> http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm
Stoves List SPONSORS and ARCHIVES:
http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/stoves-list-archive/
Stoves Webpage
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From larcon at sni.net Fri Sep 4 00:16:07 1998
From: larcon at sni.net (Ronal W. Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:04 2004
Subject: Buffalo gourd, & rootfuel
Message-ID: <v01540b03b2150d77d702@[204.133.28.19]>

Stovers: Another message from Gene Schultz:

(I need more time now to review some of this new material - but
many thanks to Gene for a tremendous review of the rootfuel technology.
Can anyone else bring in more issues? Ron)

>Ron: Yes, indeed, well-dried rootfuel is quite hard, but when fresh the water
>content is about 70%, so it can be easily cut with a paring knife or machete.
>A water content of 70 to 80% is typical of sweet potatoes, carrots and some
>other root crops, I believe. Be sure to cut rootfuel soon after harvest, or
>the energy required to chop it up later will be exorbitant. It dries to some
>level of hardness in just a few days. Also, rootfuel needs to be cut near the
>plot where it is grown, to avoid paying to haul all that internal water very
>far.
>
>Another observation: dry rootfuel has no grain like wood does. Atempts to
>split dried roots into slivers usually cause the root to shatter into chunks.
>Because its ignitability is similar to wood, we usually use slivers of wood or
>other solid combustible with a lot of surface to get the fire started, just as
>we start a woodfuel fire if there is no kerosene handy.
>
>Rootfuel is a low-power stove fuel compared to wood, but high-power compared
>to charcoal. Rootfuel pieces release energy at about one-half to one-third the
>rate of comparable size/shape wood pieces, in our rather elementary studies
>using improvised field equipment, basically a simple stove on top of a scales.
>
>The flame height is lower for rootfuel, compared to woodfuel, perhaps because
>rootfuel lacks the volatiles found in wood. In our comparisons of cooking a
>fixed amount of rice/water in the same pot, with rootfuel and woodfuel of same
>size and shape, we needed only about 0.7 as much rootfuel, by weight, to
>complete the task, perhaps because the flame height was shorter and could be
>better focused on the bottom of the pot. The woodfuel flames tended to contact
>the sides as well as the bottom of the pot, so more energy was being wasted.
>We could move the pot lower when burning rootfuel.
>
>The above is just my hypothesis. Someone competent should really do complete
>combustion studies to compare rootfuel with several types of important
>woodfuels.
>
>We had bone-dry rootfuel tested for heating value in a commercial industrial
>lab, using a Parr bomb and a standard ASTM method. They reported 7645 Btu/lb
>(published on p. in Shultz et al., 459-481, Energy from Biomass and Wastes
>XIII, Don Klass, ed., Institute of Gas Technology, Chicago). I think that 7645
>Btu/lb is about 17.7 MJ/kG, so that's not far from woodfuel, at least
>hardwoods. The big difference is in the kinetics, not the thermo.
>
>I don't know how much smaller the rootfuel would need to be, in comparison
>with woodfuel, to achieve similar rates of heat release. I suspect that the
>lower power characteristic of rootfuel is a good thing for simmered meals, a
>common thing in most of the world. A rolling boil uses up a lot of energy, but
>probably doesn't shorten cooking time of a boiled meal.
>
>Of course, one might like to get up to the boiling point quickly, maybe by
>using wood, then switch to a low-power solid fuel like rootfuel for the bulk
>of the cooking time at the b.p., but we found that there wasn't much time lost
>in getting up to boil with rootfuel. The time lost is very small to the usual
>time required for meal prep in rural areas of the world where traditional
>stoves and solid fuels are used.
>
>But do keep in mind that Chinese and Chinese-related cuisine needs a really
>high power fuel (stir-frying) so I guess that rootfuel wouldn't be too good
>for that. And that's a large fraction of the world's population, not only in
>China but in S.E. Asia.
>
>Re non-edible oils from annual root crops, I think there are plenty wild
>species that have high yields of oil, some edible and some non-edible.
>Remember that what is an annual species at higher latitudes might be a
>perennial at lower lats. In the tropics there are lots of oilseed trees, but
>also plenty that are shrubs or smaller plants. Diversity is incredible and
>generalizations are difficult to make. Anyone on the list who is interested
>might want to invest some time in combing through our book, Shultz and Morgan,
>eds. Fuels and Chemicals from Oilseeds, Westview Press, 1984. It is out of
>print, so if it is hard to find I will be glad to give anyone a copy for just
>the cost of mailing! When the book was remaindered by Westview, I acquired a
>big box full that is still in the closet taking up space. Anyone interested???
>
>Re rootfuel yields in northwestern New Mexico (high, semi-arid): single-
>season, oven-dry root yields ranged from 2.4 Mg/hectare to 12.2 Mg/hectare
>depending on irrigation level (the San Juan River is nearby). The roots will
>winter-over and resume growth next spring. Over two seasons, the low and high
>yield values were 3.9 and 21.1, resp. (Dan Smeal et al., presented 5th Int'l
>Conf. on Desert Development, Texas Tech Univ., Lubbock). I can supply copies
>of the paper.
>
>Oil yields were studied about 15-20 years ago by Wm. P. Bemis et al. of U. of
>Arizona. They published a lot of yield info, some as a row crop, some in other
>growing regimes. Maybe the handiest source for yield data is the review by
>DeVeaux and Shultz in Economic Botany, 1985, 39(4):454-472.
>
>The best niche (or niches) for this plant, Cucurbita foetidissima? Well, fuel
>ethanol for transport in those places in the world where ethanol subsidies are
>possible, oil is scarce, and semi-arid climatic conditions abound but where
>water is available for irrigation (not a whole lot is needed, less than corn).
>I think of drylands through which major rivers flow, so you aren't stealing
>water from food crops.
>
>The seedoil, excellent as a food oil, really should be used but the whole
>world seems to be awash in foodoils, thanks mostly to widespread cultivation
>of soybeans to feed cattle. Who really needs a new food oil source??? So maybe
>one can justify using the oil for biodiesel, or illumination? Why not? What do
>you think?
>
>The roots are bitter so food/feed uses for them are out of the question. Bemis
>tried to extract the starch, hoping to find a special high-quality starch, but
>found the starch wasn't worth it. So the only major uses for the roots are for
>fermentation to ethanol, or for drying to give a relatively clean-burning
>solid fuel.
>
>About the latter, I have spent so many years on rootfuel that I don't have a
>shred of objectivity left. But do hear me out on the benefits of rootfuel.
>
>Indoor smoke is a major health problem. Indoor RSP levels are typically much
>much higher than the WHO-approved minimum when you go around the Third World
>and make measurements. The health toll, especially on children and women (in
>the house more than than the men) is enormous. Elder men are in the house and
>suffer with the elder women. Under 2 mortality is high and is driven by smoke-
>related respiratory infections just as much as by other reasons. You have
>heard Kirk Smith, and others, point this out many times. It's real. It's big
>time.
>
>My sense of it is that we've got to do something about this as soon as we can,
>whether via better stoves (that are affordable by the poor, or can be made by
>the poor), or by a cleaner-burning solid fuel that doesn't require the poor to
>buy an expensive stove (expensive for them) that burns a hydrocarbon fuel
>cleanly.
>
>Then there is also the greenhouse-gas problem that smoke creates, and this may
>be just as serious as the effect of carbon dioxide. Again, read Kirk Smith.
>Are we still in denial about this problem? Maybe.
>
>If we simply divert smoke out of the house into the atmosphere by means of a
>chimney, the greenhouse-gas components of smoke are still being released into
>the atmosphere, and in urban areas, smoke sneaks back into the house through
>doors and windows. If we devise excellent stoves that release very little
>smoke, but those stoves can't be afforded by any but the relatively well to
>do, most of the global problem remains. Most traditional fuel users are quite
>poor, and there are an awful lot of poor people in this world.
>
>Downsides to rootfuel? They exist. The big problem is that renewable fuels of
>any kind require water to grow them, and rootfuel is no exception. And we are
>getting into trouble, globally, with water resources. One niche for rootfuel,
>then, might be be semi-arid deforested regions crossed by rivers, heavily
>populated by rural poor families who use traditional fuels like dung and burn
>such inherently smokey fuels indoors for good and sufficient reasons I don't
>question.
>
>Another niche might be rapidly growing cities, growing in pop mainly by
>migration of poor from rural areas. They still need a cheap fuel where they
>settle in the cities, and they can't grow it in the city. Rootfuel might be
>grown and dried by entrepreneurs outside the cities who truck it in to urban
>markets. Again, semi-arid conditions are needed, but with rivers. At present,
>many cities of Africa struggle with smoke pollution because those entrepeneurs
>are hauling in woodfuel to the urban markets. Rural to urban migration will
>persist, and it will probably increase. Major, major problem. We are becoming
>an urbanized world. Think about the implications.
>
>You are so right about the light that one gets from a wood fire. Rootfuel has
>a red flame and provides light, but not as much as woodfuel. Burn it in an
>open fire for lighting, and virtually no smoke. Re locally produced oils for
>oil lamps for lighting, see our 1984 book (Shultz and Morgan, eds)
>specifically Chap 12, Mathieu and Shultz. Reviews lamp technologies, and
>simple oilseed pressing technology. Not a comprehensive source of info, but a
>place to start. Thanks for your good questions! Gene Shultz (geneshu@aol.com)

Ronal W. Larson, PhD
21547 Mountsfield Dr.
Golden, CO 80401, USA
303/526-9629; FAX same with warning
larcon@sni.net

From gpk at physics.unipune.ernet.in Fri Sep 4 05:50:38 1998
From: gpk at physics.unipune.ernet.in (Priyadarshini Karve(SBO))
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:04 2004
Subject: Hotbox stove
In-Reply-To: <199809031936.MAA06976@epud.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980904151029.11988D-100000@physics>

Dear Dr. Still,
Thanks for your offer of experiments on the clay hotbox. Any input
from your students would be most welcome. If you remember, it was in fact
one of your messages emphasising the importance of the hotbox concept that
triggered off the development of this model.
Regarding your comments on the R value: I am not directly involved
in the work of stoves construction that our people do, but from what I
have seen, the clay that is used for making the stoves is not just
ordinary mud. It also contains other ingredients like saw dust, cowdung
etc. (I can provide the exact composition after consulting my colleagues).
The process of preparing the clay goes on for about 5-6 days. This
processing is necessary to ensure that the stove does not crack on drying.
So I suppose it is necessary to study the insulating properties of the
clay mixture to understand and improve upon our hotbox.
Your students can perhaps take up the experiment of finding a clay
mixture that will give the best insulation and at the same time provide a
long lasting stove!
With regards,
Priyadarshini Karve

From gpk at physics.unipune.ernet.in Fri Sep 4 06:12:11 1998
From: gpk at physics.unipune.ernet.in (Priyadarshini Karve(SBO))
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:04 2004
Subject: Karve on nonedible oils as fuel
In-Reply-To: <v01540b00b2130f31c242@[204.133.28.31]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980904153529.11988E-100000@physics>

Dear Dr. Larson,
You wrote:
> 1) This offer was wonderful - and hopefully all who can will find a way to
> make sure that this doesn't break you financially.
> As some know, I am helping a small rainforest part of Southwestern
> Ethiopia called Kafa (original home of coffee). I imagine that all your
> species will grow extremely well there (I've never seen a better climate -
> with 2 meters of rainfall annually with some rain every month). I will
> look into ways to get them transferredinto Kafa for tests.
> Could you say a bit more about the economics of growing these
> non-edible seed-oils? What are the preferred uses in India? Stoves?
> Lamps?

Thanks for your interest. We would certainly like to try out these
plants in other regions. As far as the economics and other details are
concerned, I will first get my information confirmed from my agricultural
scientist colleagues before passing it on to you. Right now these oils
have not found as much use as they should in India. I know that in some
regions the tribal people make a garland of the seeds of jatropha and use
it as an improvised candle. As a child, I have tried this out myself. I
took a few fullly ripened seeds and put them on a nail (the way one would
put pieces of meat on a skewer for grilling!) I then lighted one seed at
the end of the row and it burned quite well giving a slightly smoky bright
yellow flame. I still remember that the seeds burnt one after the other
and the string lasted much longer than I had expected.
In our Institute, we have not so far worked on ways of using the
nonedible oils as fuel, but the discussion in this group on jatropha oil
has certainly started us in that direction. So I will definately have
something to report in this context in a few months time.
I will come back with more information on the oilseed species
sometime next week.
With regards,
Priyadarshini Karve.

From otto at vermontel.com Fri Sep 4 10:49:50 1998
From: otto at vermontel.com (The Otto's)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:04 2004
Subject: Jatropha and other nonedible plant oils
Message-ID: <35F02660.1A8D@vermontel.com>

I wonder if other stove list readers do as I do: dutifully race through
the dialogues on sawdust consumption, Russian samavors or chimney design
and then pour over every message concerning MY current interest. It's
all fascinating, and I'm glad the archive exist if ever I need it, but
the recent return of Jatropha to the stove list message board is very
encouraging.

1. Gene Schulz: Delighted with your book offer: please post specifics
on 'ordering' this invaluable volume. May I suggest you establish an
average postage and handling fee, and post it along with your mailing
address?

2. Ronal Larson: Thanks for your kind words after out recent in-person
encounter in Vermont. Your dedication as 'list master' is obviously
serving a key need, and I want to acknowledge your tireless efforts.

3. Priyadarshini Karve: Many thanks for your generous offer on plant
material and advice. Please do give some specifics on how to access
them. One question: when your research center selected high yielding
plants of Jatropha curcas for propagation what 'yield' factors were used
as the criteria: plant growth rate, number or weight of seed kernels per
plant, percentage of oil, etc.? I ask because I've not seen any data on
whether there are significant variations in oil yields among different
JC plants, which could become a key consideration in the efficiency of
plant oils as alternative fuels and would play an important role in
eventual promotion strategies, e.g., how many lineal meters of JC hedge
would be needed to supply a household's domestic energy needs. ANY NEWS
OF STOVE DEVELPMENT USING PLANT OIL AS FUEL FROM YOUR PART OF THE WORLD
IS EAGERLY AWAITED IN AFRICA. By the way, kids and adults in Tanzania
also used to string Jatropha seeds on short bits of wire for night
lighting, and I've done demonstrations of JC seeds skewered on a bent
paperclip to show the impressive burning qualitiy of this future fuel
source. Just mind the smoke alarm systems in modern buildings because
the whole seeds burn with considerable smoke, as you noted. And a last
thought: if liquid fuel applications prove too complex and/or expensive
for village-level users, might whole JC seed be tested in a charcoal
stove, perhaps with a brief period of preburning before cooking begins
(as is typical of charcoal use in barbeque grills) to eliminate most of
the smoke?

4. General: Our main technicial of the Village Energy Solutions group,
Swiss engineer Erwin Protzen, is hoping someone will help us locate a
copy (photocopy?) of the book noted below, which is not available from
the original source. CONICAL GRATE RICE HULL STOVE, A Technical Manual,
Alexis T. Belonio, Department of Agric. Engineering, College of
Agriculture, Central Philipine University, Oloilo City, Philippines.
Thanks in advance to anyone who can help.

Until next time, Jonathan

From larcon at sni.net Sat Sep 5 08:20:15 1998
From: larcon at sni.net (Ronal W. Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:04 2004
Subject: Piet Verhaart on Buffalo gourd, & rootfuel
Message-ID: <v01540b00b216dfa9623b@[204.133.28.41]>

Gene and Stovers: this just in from Piet in response to the book offer
from Gene Schultz - Ron

I wrote:

>Stovers: Another message from Gene Schultz:
<Chop>
>> Anyone on the list who is interested
>>might want to invest some time in combing through our book, Shultz and
Morgan,
>>eds. Fuels and Chemicals from Oilseeds, Westview Press, 1984. It is out of
>>print, so if it is hard to find I will be glad to give anyone a copy for
just
>>the cost of mailing! When the book was remaindered by Westview, I acquired a
>>big box full that is still in the closet taking up space. Anyone
interested???
>>

Yes, but how can I refund your expenses, credit card (Visa)?

Piet
Peter Verhaart, 6 McDonald St. Gracemere Q 4702 Australia
Phone: +61 7 4933 1761; fax: +61 7 4933 1761 or
+61 7 4933 2112 (when computer is on); mobile: 0412 457239
E-mail p.verhaart@cqu.edu.au

Ronal W. Larson, PhD
21547 Mountsfield Dr.
Golden, CO 80401, USA
303/526-9629; FAX same with warning
larcon@sni.net

From tduke at igc.apc.org Sat Sep 5 09:31:31 1998
From: tduke at igc.apc.org (Thomas Duke)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:04 2004
Subject: Book order
Message-ID: <35F13F29.3CD951A1@igc.apc.org>

Stovers,

I would also like a copy of the book by Gene Schulz. So, I am watching
for ordering information.

Thanks,

Tom Duke

From larcon at sni.net Sat Sep 5 18:57:12 1998
From: larcon at sni.net (Ronal W. Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:04 2004
Subject: Forest fires in Indonesia
Message-ID: <v01540b01b216e05b8be2@[204.133.28.41]>

Stovers:
I just finished reading the August issue of National Geographic
(pages 100-118), where there is a very disturbing account of the terrible
smoke that afflicted large parts of Indonesia during August-October of
1997. The good writing (Pulitzer prize-winning author) and excellent
photographs that NG are noted for led me to two ideas that have connections
to this list:

1. First, the pictures of the Indonesian (outdoor) smoke reminded me of
homes I have been in in Kafa, Ethiopia. In both cases, it seemed you
couldn't see 10 meters.
The NG story noted that many in cities were going to hospitals for
treatment of smoke inhalation. Since there are no hospitals in Kafa (only
3 clinics for about 800,000 people), and generations have done the same
thing, there is little such treatment and few records.
The reporter noted he could not work without a gas mask. I have
wished for one in those Kafa homes.

So the first point is that there seems to be a possible correlation
(and opportunity) between the two forms of air pollution. The sources are
the same. The health impacts should be similar. Can the Indonesian
catastrophe help us to focus attention on indoor air pollution coming from
cook stoves? I wonder if Kirk Smith and others might tell us what might
have been (or could be) learned from hospital studies in Indonesia. The
impacts were even felt in very modern cities like Singapore - where the
studies should have been very thorough and for much reduced levels of
pollution. Can anyone tell us if this Indonesian air quality situation
could be used to foster stove research - based on the likely health impact
similarities?

2. My second point is that perhaps we on this list could have some role in
alleviating this forest burning problem in the future. These forests are
being burned so that the landowners can quickly replant in palm trees.
Perhaps the landowners' interests in rapid profit might be exploited by
further developing technologies for the clean conversion of this lumber and
slash to charcoal.

The problem is in the word "clean". If the owners simply turn the wood
to charcoal in pits, the noxious smoke might even be worse than at present
(less initial CO2). The wood and slash will probably have to be first
moved a bit to make room for the palm trees and then dried for probably a
year or more before a clean "top down" technique can be used for combustion
of the pyrolysis gases. With the traditional pit techniques, the pyrolysis
gases are not combustible until well into the "burn".

But some on this list are looking for ways to use the pyrolysis
gases to dry out a second batch of wet wood while pyrolyzing a first. Maybe
that is a better way. Burning this valuable resource in this senseless way
really seems like poor economics.

So, as in my question #1 - is this Indonesian forest fire situation
an opportunity where the problem might encourage international funding to
find a clean manner of making charcoal? The difference in this case is
that there should be a good profit (and long-term jobs) if the downed
forest resource can be converted either slowly after drying or with clever
techniques for drying using the heat from the combusted pyrolysis gases.

Other comments? Ron

Ronal W. Larson, PhD
21547 Mountsfield Dr.
Golden, CO 80401, USA
303/526-9629; FAX same with warning
larcon@sni.net

From larcon at sni.net Sat Sep 5 18:59:32 1998
From: larcon at sni.net (Ronal W. Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:04 2004
Subject: RSVP_List Response to Water Boiling article
Message-ID: <v01540b1cb2176cc689b6@[204.133.28.41]>

Stovers - The following from stoves list member Julie Cardinal to a
different village energy list will probably be of interest to our members
as we had previously seen the report on the Bolivian "stove" diffusion
problem. Thanks to the author Pete Smith (G_Pete_Smith@compuserve.com) as
well. Ron

>From: "Cardinal, Julie" <Julie_Cardinal@nrel.gov>
>To: "'rsvp@mail.nrel.gov'" <rsvp@mail.nrel.gov>
>Subject: RSVP_List Response to Water Boiling article
>Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 11:36:55 -0600
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>Sender: owner-rsvp@mail.nrel.gov
>Precedence: bulk
>Reply-To: "Cardinal, Julie" <Julie_Cardinal@nrel.gov>
>
>Dear Listserv Members,
>
>Over a month ago, I posted an article about diffusing the practice of boiling
>water in Peruvian villages. I received this response from Pete Smith at NRECA
>Bolivia, and I would like to share it with you. If you would like to
>share your
>opinion, please write the listserv at rsvp@mail.nrel.gov or you can write to
>Pete at G_Pete_Smith@compuserve.com. This topic is especially interesting to
>me, and I'm working on finding more literature for you.
>
>Sincerely,
>
>Julie Cardinal
>
>
>Julie,
>
>Thanks for the boiling water posting. The "boiling water problem" is very
>representative of the general problem of development in the remote communities
>of Bolivia. Brian Kybett identifies education as the critical link
>necessary to
>make progress. I agree.
>
>The low level of education in remote areas is at the root of the problem. The
>problem, which NGOs like NRECA face continually, is how to create the small
>educational steps necessary to bring a target population from their experience
>to an understanding of a new project. Actually, the experience of NREL and
>NRECA in promoting hybrid wind systems shows that the low level of
>understanding
>sometimes is more related to government officials and utilities and not some
>farmers living in remote communities.
>
>An example: As you know, NRECA has put lights in many remote villages where
>sustainability of the project depends on training local technicians and on the
>care of the PV systems by the users. A great advantage in such projects
>is that
>the new users are not biased against the technology. They want lights. Thus,
>the hurdle, faced in the boiling water example of convincing the women that
>boiling was worthwhile, doesn't exist in the same sense. However, similar
>problems do exist. For example, the users must understand the function and
>limitations of the battery. NREL and NRECA know many PV projects, which
>are now
>not functioning, because the batteries are all dead. The government program in
>Mexico is an unfortunate example.
>
>Clearly, before starting a new project it is necessary to determine if the
>experience of the new users is sufficient to grasp the project. It would be
>more correct to say that one must first determine those experiences of the
>locals that can be used to create a sustainable project. Two examples come to
>mind. While working in Somalia in the 1980's on a utility efficiency problem,
>my World Bank team did an evaluation of the maintenance of diesels. An Irish
>group was training new mechanics and diesel operators at the time so we had a
>first-hand look at the results of the training. The Irish group had set up an
>evaluation system to test the results of their training. The results were very
>negative. On the other hand, the evaluation system showed clearly why the new
>operators, for example, did not read the temperature gauges correctly.
>They had
>no idea what the word "temperature" meant. The concept of "temperature" was
>totally foreign to them. The training was not based on the experience of the
>trainees.
>
>Not to belabor this point, another example has been with me for many years. My
>wife and I were having dinner with Eugene Wigner, a Princeton physicist who won
>the Nobel Prize for his work in quantum theory using new mathematical systems
>called "representations of groups". I had asked him how he got into this
>particular subject and he had an interesting answer. He pointed out that
>he had
>a "feeling" that symmetries somehow played a role in quantum physics, so he
>talked to a mathematician about the mathematics of symmetries. The
>mathematician quizzed him for several hours (!) about what mathematics he did
>know. After the inquisition, he said, "I now know how to explain to you the
>mathematics of symmetries based on what you already know." Obviously, starting
>from one's level of experience and knowledge is relevant at all levels of
>education.
>
>One conclusion is that development projects exist which can not be sustainable,
>because no path exists between the experience of the people and the
>relevance of
>the project. I would say that, if such a project were a high priority for a
>community, then connections between the project and the communal experience
>would exist at some level. It is a question of identifying the critical
>experiences on which to build the project. Brian's comments about the white
>teachers not succeeding in the Indian schools probably relates directly to the
>cultural gap which does not allow the white teacher to correctly identify and
>understand the relevant experiences of the Indian students.
>
>Another interesting conclusion, not meant as an attack on USAID but only as a
>comment, is the failure of USAID to create sustainable projects through the use
>of Strategic Objectives. As you know, USAID has adopted a management system
>based on strategic objectives. This system is excellent for controlling
>expenditures, eliminating "unneeded" personnel slots, and so forth. The
>inherent nature of strategic objectives is that they are highly focused making
>project control very transparent and relatively easy. Unfortunately, AID
>recipients don't work in a highly focused world. Their experiences are
>fundamentally defocused in order to maximize the chances for survival. USAID's
>strategy objectives program can't be called a failure. In Bolivia, it has had
>some outstanding successes. The creation of health centers in the urban areas,
>which are much used, certainly have benefited the country. Do they create a
>sustainable progress in improving the health of Bolivians? Perhaps a bit.
>However, they clearly do not go to the roots of the problem. The problem,
>which
>your boiling water posting, clearly identified.
>
>Regards,
>
>Pete Smith
>Director, NRECA Bolivia
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------
>Posted to the Renewables for Sustainable Village Power List
>By: "Cardinal, Julie" <Julie_Cardinal@nrel.gov>
>------------------------------------------------------------
>

Ronal W. Larson, PhD
21547 Mountsfield Dr.
Golden, CO 80401, USA
303/526-9629; FAX same with warning
larcon@sni.net

From REEDTB at compuserve.com Mon Sep 7 19:13:21 1998
From: REEDTB at compuserve.com (Tom Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:04 2004
Subject: File mail vs E-mail
Message-ID: <199809071923_MC2-58A7-F677@compuserve.com>

Dear Doelle and all:

I have recently been receiving more and more E-mail messages (in Compuserve
4.0) that have a second message attached. Frequently I can read the second
file message without problem; sometimes I have to go to my download to find
it.

If the attached file has special formatting, pictures, etc., I can
understand why it is sent as an attachment. However, if it is plain text,
why send it as an attachment rather than a plain E-mail letter???

Comments? Yours truly,
TOM REED
Stoves List SPONSORS and ARCHIVES:
http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/stoves-list-archive/
Stoves Webpage
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From REEDTB at compuserve.com Mon Sep 7 19:13:48 1998
From: REEDTB at compuserve.com (Tom Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:04 2004
Subject: Buffalo gourd, & rootfuel
Message-ID: <199809071923_MC2-58A7-F67B@compuserve.com>

Ron, Gene Schultz et al:

How glad I am to find Gene Schultz weighing in on root fuels here. I hope
some of this is also appearing in the BIOENERGY section, since root fuels
are a new, non-obvious source of fuel which may (or may not) some day be
important. (Gene sent me his book on oil-plants long ago; Thanks.) I'm
opening a new file folder on rootfuels in my file cabinet.

Gene said:

>Rootfuel is a low-power stove fuel compared to wood, but high-power
compared
>to charcoal. Rootfuel pieces release energy at about one-half to one-third
the
>rate of comparable size/shape wood pieces, in our rather elementary
studies
>using improvised field equipment, basically a simple stove on top of a
scales.
>
>The flame height is lower for rootfuel, compared to woodfuel, perhaps
because
>rootfuel lacks the volatiles found in wood. In our comparisons of cooking
a
>fixed amount of rice/water in the same pot, with rootfuel and woodfuel of
same
>size and shape, we needed only about 0.7 as much rootfuel, by weight, to
>complete the task, perhaps because the flame height was shorter and could
be
>better focused on the bottom of the pot. The woodfuel flames tended to
contact
>the sides as well as the bottom of the pot, so more energy was being
wasted.
>We could move the pot lower when burning rootfuel.

Let us speculate on the low flame height. The physical composition of
"woody biomass" is roughtly 50% cellulose, 25% hemicellulose and 25%
lignin. The carbon ratio chemical composition of woody biomass is
approximated by C H(1.4) O (0.6). I presume that the rootfuel is primarily
"carbohydrate" (derived from the formula from sugar, C6H12O6 = C-H2O,
carbon plus water). Thus the carbon-ratio forumla for starch (C6H10O5)
would be C H(1.66) O (0.833). At first glance this would appear to have
MORE potential for volatility (Higher H and O), but also lower energy
content (more H2O). Gene's figure of 17.7 kJ/g is 15% lower than the
figure of 21 kJ/g for DRY woody biomass with the formula above. .

I think it more likely that the low flame height is due to the high density
and low permeability of the rootfuel-starch. The specific gravity of woody
biomass cellwall is an amazing 1.5 (g/cm3) but hardwoods are typically .5
and softwoods .3, due to the cellular structure and air content. Ron gave
me a few pieces of buffalo gourd a few years ago, and I just went down to
my lab to check the density. It is DENSE and HARD. I put a piece in water
and it almost sank - like an ice cube. I would estimate the SG as 0.9.
Also, non-porous.

So I speculate that the low flame height is due to slower pyrolysis on the
application of heat, releasing the volatile materials more slowly.
~~~~~

We should all be VERY aware of the quenching effect of a cooking pot.
Light a candle and hold a cold spoon 2 cm above the visible flame. No soot
apparent. Hold it 1/2 cm above the visible flame. Small soot
accumulation. Hold it 1/2 cm below the top of the visible flame. COPIOUS
soot (unburned carbon) apparent. Hold it 1/2 cm above the wick. An outer
ring of soot and an inner circle of condensed parrafin wax apparent. While
this doesn't measure CO, unburned C and CO go together.

So a few cm difference in pot height can make a BIG difference over various
wood and rootfuel flames, and this could certainly explain the superior
efficiency and lower emissions of the rootfuels in Gene's tests.

~~~~~
In my most recent blue flame wood-gas stove I cooked potatoes in our
kitchen. No smell, water boiled in 3 min, potatoes delicious. Then I
looked at the bottom of the pot. No soot, but a heavy coating of a dark
varnish that it took 15 minutes to remove with Brillo! I have promised
Vivian that I will not use her pot again until this problem is solved.

What is the dark varnish????

~~~~~

Comments?

Your firebug pal,
TOM REED

Message text written by Ronal W. Larson
>>Ron: Yes, indeed, well-dried rootfuel is quite hard, but when fresh the
water
>content is about 70%, so it can be easily cut with a paring knife or
machete.
>A water content of 70 to 80% is typical of sweet potatoes, carrots and
some
>other root crops, I believe. Be sure to cut rootfuel soon after harvest,
or
>the energy required to chop it up later will be exorbitant. It dries to
some
>level of hardness in just a few days. Also, rootfuel needs to be cut near
the
>plot where it is grown, to avoid paying to haul all that internal water
very
>far.
>
>Another observation: dry rootfuel has no grain like wood does. Atempts to
>split dried roots into slivers usually cause the root to shatter into
chunks.
>Because its ignitability is similar to wood, we usually use slivers of
wood or
>other solid combustible with a lot of surface to get the fire started,
just as
>we start a woodfuel fire if there is no kerosene handy.
>
>
>The above is just my hypothesis. Someone competent should really do
complete
>combustion studies to compare rootfuel with several types of important
>woodfuels.
>
>We had bone-dry rootfuel tested for heating value in a commercial
industrial
>lab, using a Parr bomb and a standard ASTM method. They reported 7645
Btu/lb
>(published on p. in Shultz et al., 459-481, Energy from Biomass and
Wastes
>XIII, Don Klass, ed., Institute of Gas Technology, Chicago). I think that
7645
>Btu/lb is about 17.7 MJ/kG, so that's not far from woodfuel, at least
>hardwoods. The big difference is in the kinetics, not the thermo.
>
>I don't know how much smaller the rootfuel would need to be, in comparison
>with woodfuel, to achieve similar rates of heat release. I suspect that
the
>lower power characteristic of rootfuel is a good thing for simmered meals,
a
>common thing in most of the world. A rolling boil uses up a lot of energy,
but
>probably doesn't shorten cooking time of a boiled meal.
>
>Of course, one might like to get up to the boiling point quickly, maybe by
>using wood, then switch to a low-power solid fuel like rootfuel for the
bulk
>of the cooking time at the b.p., but we found that there wasn't much time
lost
>in getting up to boil with rootfuel. The time lost is very small to the
usual
>time required for meal prep in rural areas of the world where traditional
>stoves and solid fuels are used.
>
>But do keep in mind that Chinese and Chinese-related cuisine needs a
really
>high power fuel (stir-frying) so I guess that rootfuel wouldn't be too
good
>for that. And that's a large fraction of the world's population, not only
in
>China but in S.E. Asia.
>
>Re non-edible oils from annual root crops, I think there are plenty wild
>species that have high yields of oil, some edible and some non-edible.
>Remember that what is an annual species at higher latitudes might be a
>perennial at lower lats. In the tropics there are lots of oilseed trees,
but
>also plenty that are shrubs or smaller plants. Diversity is incredible and
>generalizations are difficult to make. Anyone on the list who is
interested
>might want to invest some time in combing through our book, Shultz and
Morgan,
>eds. Fuels and Chemicals from Oilseeds, Westview Press, 1984. It is out of
>print, so if it is hard to find I will be glad to give anyone a copy for
just
>the cost of mailing! When the book was remaindered by Westview, I acquired
a
>big box full that is still in the closet taking up space. Anyone
interested???
>
>Re rootfuel yields in northwestern New Mexico (high, semi-arid): single-
>season, oven-dry root yields ranged from 2.4 Mg/hectare to 12.2 Mg/hectare
>depending on irrigation level (the San Juan River is nearby). The roots
will
>winter-over and resume growth next spring. Over two seasons, the low and
high
>yield values were 3.9 and 21.1, resp. (Dan Smeal et al., presented 5th
Int'l
>Conf. on Desert Development, Texas Tech Univ., Lubbock). I can supply
copies
>of the paper.
>
>Oil yields were studied about 15-20 years ago by Wm. P. Bemis et al. of U.
of
>Arizona. They published a lot of yield info, some as a row crop, some in
other
>growing regimes. Maybe the handiest source for yield data is the review by
>DeVeaux and Shultz in Economic Botany, 1985, 39(4):454-472.
>
>The best niche (or niches) for this plant, Cucurbita foetidissima? Well,
fuel
>ethanol for transport in those places in the world where ethanol subsidies
are
>possible, oil is scarce, and semi-arid climatic conditions abound but
where
>water is available for irrigation (not a whole lot is needed, less than
corn).
>I think of drylands through which major rivers flow, so you aren't
stealing
>water from food crops.
>
>The seedoil, excellent as a food oil, really should be used but the whole
>world seems to be awash in foodoils, thanks mostly to widespread
cultivation
>of soybeans to feed cattle. Who really needs a new food oil source??? So
maybe
>one can justify using the oil for biodiesel, or illumination? Why not?
What do
>you think?
>
>The roots are bitter so food/feed uses for them are out of the question.
Bemis
>tried to extract the starch, hoping to find a special high-quality starch,
but
>found the starch wasn't worth it. So the only major uses for the roots are
for
>fermentation to ethanol, or for drying to give a relatively clean-burning
>solid fuel.
>
>About the latter, I have spent so many years on rootfuel that I don't have
a
>shred of objectivity left. But do hear me out on the benefits of rootfuel.
>
>Indoor smoke is a major health problem. Indoor RSP levels are typically
much
>much higher than the WHO-approved minimum when you go around the Third
World
>and make measurements. The health toll, especially on children and women
(in
>the house more than than the men) is enormous. Elder men are in the house
and
>suffer with the elder women. Under 2 mortality is high and is driven by
smoke-
>related respiratory infections just as much as by other reasons. You have
>heard Kirk Smith, and others, point this out many times. It's real. It's
big
>time.
>
>My sense of it is that we've got to do something about this as soon as we
can,
>whether via better stoves (that are affordable by the poor, or can be made
by
>the poor), or by a cleaner-burning solid fuel that doesn't require the
poor to
>buy an expensive stove (expensive for them) that burns a hydrocarbon fuel
>cleanly.
>
>Then there is also the greenhouse-gas problem that smoke creates, and this
may
>be just as serious as the effect of carbon dioxide. Again, read Kirk
Smith.
>Are we still in denial about this problem? Maybe.
>
>If we simply divert smoke out of the house into the atmosphere by means of
a
>chimney, the greenhouse-gas components of smoke are still being released
into
>the atmosphere, and in urban areas, smoke sneaks back into the house
through
>doors and windows. If we devise excellent stoves that release very little
>smoke, but those stoves can't be afforded by any but the relatively well
to
>do, most of the global problem remains. Most traditional fuel users are
quite
>poor, and there are an awful lot of poor people in this world.
>
>Downsides to rootfuel? They exist. The big problem is that renewable fuels
of
>any kind require water to grow them, and rootfuel is no exception. And we
are
>getting into trouble, globally, with water resources. One niche for
rootfuel,
>then, might be be semi-arid deforested regions crossed by rivers, heavily
>populated by rural poor families who use traditional fuels like dung and
burn
>such inherently smokey fuels indoors for good and sufficient reasons I
don't
>question.
>
>Another niche might be rapidly growing cities, growing in pop mainly by
>migration of poor from rural areas. They still need a cheap fuel where
they
>settle in the cities, and they can't grow it in the city. Rootfuel might
be
>grown and dried by entrepreneurs outside the cities who truck it in to
urban
>markets. Again, semi-arid conditions are needed, but with rivers. At
present,
>many cities of Africa struggle with smoke pollution because those
entrepeneurs
>are hauling in woodfuel to the urban markets. Rural to urban migration
will
>persist, and it will probably increase. Major, major problem. We are
becoming
>an urbanized world. Think about the implications.
>
>You are so right about the light that one gets from a wood fire. Rootfuel
has
>a red flame and provides light, but not as much as woodfuel. Burn it in an
>open fire for lighting, and virtually no smoke. Re locally produced oils
for
>oil lamps for lighting, see our 1984 book (Shultz and Morgan, eds)
>specifically Chap 12, Mathieu and Shultz. Reviews lamp technologies, and
>simple oilseed pressing technology. Not a comprehensive source of info,
but a
>place to start. Thanks for your good questions! Gene Shultz
(geneshu@aol.com)
<

From REEDTB at compuserve.com Mon Sep 7 19:14:03 1998
From: REEDTB at compuserve.com (Tom Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:04 2004
Subject: Fred Hottenroth, Jr. and Sr. and ZZ CORP.
Message-ID: <199809071924_MC2-58A7-F692@compuserve.com>

Dear ZZ CORP, Fred Hottenroth, Ron:

It is my understanding that the ZZ CORP. has been sold by the Hottenroths
to others, but that Fred Jr. still maintains a consulting position for
them.

I certainly hope that both Fred Jr. and the new owners will wish to be
members of the world stove group discussing the problems of cooking stoves
around the world. And please let us know what stoves you are now selling,
prices, how to order etc., as I am sure many of our members will wish to
buy at least the Sierra stove to discover the power of FORCED convection in
small stoves.

To join, send the message "subscribe stoves" to MAJORDOMO@CREST.ORG. You
should also take a look at our web page at www.crest.org to see our other
interests.

How is Fred Senior????

Your pal,
TOM REED

Message text written by Ronal W. Larson
>Tom:

You said:

> <snip> Fred's primary
>motivation is selling stoves in 3rd World countries, but currently most of
>their stoves are sold in this country.

Can you get the Hottenroths back on the "stoves" list?

Ron

Ronal W. Larson, PhD
21547 Mountsfield Dr.
Golden, CO 80401, USA
303/526-9629; FAX same with warning
larcon@sni.net
<

From REEDTB at compuserve.com Mon Sep 7 19:14:36 1998
From: REEDTB at compuserve.com (Tom Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:04 2004
Subject: Hemp Crops for Fuel or Fiber
Message-ID: <199809071923_MC2-58A7-F680@compuserve.com>

Dear John Olsen, Gene Schultz et al:

John wrote...
Message text written by "John Olsen"
>
Just a note regarding fibre crops.We planted 2507 Hectares of lowTHC
Industrial Hemp, across Canada,
this year. It's been legal since March 1998.
Next year I know a lot more will be planted as the demand for fibre from a
wood alternate increases.
John Olsen/ Cree Industries.
<

I have been following the fortunes of industrial hemp here in Colorado
(COHIP) for 5 years after testifying on hemp oil as a source of biodiesel
for the Colorado State Legislature (Lloyd Casey). Industrial hemp is
burdened by the advocacy of potheads who show up at the meetings. I don't
think industrial hemp is about pot, but why are they so interested.

My friend Agua Das (das@welcomehome.org) has been a leader in advocating
industrial hemp for energy (seven ways around the gas pump - with hemp).
He makes hemp ice cream (HEMPSCREAM) and hemp oil in his press. He's
thinking of taking the press to Canada. Do you know Das John??

Industrial hemp is about high fiber yields, high biomass yields and high
oil yields.

Comments??

TOM REED
Stoves List SPONSORS and ARCHIVES:
http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/stoves-list-archive/
Stoves Webpage
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From larcon at sni.net Mon Sep 7 22:51:22 1998
From: larcon at sni.net (Ronal W. Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:04 2004
Subject: Forest fires in Indonesia
Message-ID: <v01540b04b21a38f754e4@[204.133.28.14]>

Stovers - This message just in from Andrew Heggie on the Indonesian fire
situation. Andrew is one of our most expert on this list about cleanly
making charcoal, so I hope someone can pick up on his final comments about
needing greater world wide attention to the environmental disposition of
biomass "wastes". In the first line Andrew is referring to me (Ron).

At 17:09 05-09-98 -0600, you wrote:
>
>2. My second point is that perhaps we on this list could have some role in
>alleviating this forest burning problem in the future. These forests are
>being burned so that the landowners can quickly replant in palm trees.
>Perhaps the landowners' interests in rapid profit might be exploited by
>further developing technologies for the clean conversion of this lumber and
>slash to charcoal.

(Andrew):
As you say this situation exists from the need for cash especially US
dollar cash. It is often not a sustainable land use and its products should
not be acceptable to the world market. However our industialised economies
were booted up on similar practices so we have little moral ground on which
to base our criticism. One other point it illustrates is that these changes
in land use have been very wasteful and do not reflect practices where
there is a recognised need for sustainable wood production. In England wood
grown for charcoal production as a fuel in the iron smelting industry was
protected by statute in Elizabethan times to maintain the resource, other
areas not so valued continued being cleared for agriculture. Forest
clearances here took place in the iron age to produce a cereal cash crop.
It is thought the Romans were tempted by this source of corn after the
traditional growing areas south of the Mediterranean became exhausted
(desertified?). Following this the cash crop became wool ( our chancellor
of the exchequer still sits on a "woolsack" which shows its importance to
the then economy). Grazing animals prevented any reversion to high forest
to the extent that woodland cover was down from 12% in Roman times to 5% at
the turn of this century. The fright of not being able to source timber
products from abroad during two conflicts prompted a doubling of this cover
this century. We still depend on foreign trade for 85% of our needs.

A similar thing existed in the Caribbean. The land was cleared for sugar
exports, the wood was used to power the sugar refining. The net effect of
this is that a substantial amount of the world's carbon which was locked
into high forest is circulating elsewhere as arable and grass land is not
capable of stocking similar densities.

As to what can be done:
Certainly nothing to overtly support the slash and burn conversion to
plantation to agriculture or plantations. In many cases the soil and
climate are simply not up to supporting export of material, nutrients and
ground cover.

James Arcate has been plugging away at systems for utilising biomass
"waste", prominent on the gasification list recently, to co fire
centralised power stations. If his system were in place and could pay an
attractive price for charcoal then wastes carbonised via any source and
method would have access to the market.

In many cases the drive for first world cash is so great and the value of
biomass so low in comparison to fossil fuels little can be done in the time
available. We have a similar situation here when involved in site clearance
for development after land has received "planning permission". The change
in value of the land is fifty fold so there is an indecent rush to build as
fast as possible. After all the developer has invested a large sum, the
previous land owner has banked his gains and the building contractor's
train of equipment and personnel is ready to roll. So a mixture of bank
charges, cash flow and desire to find work often forces the timber on site
to be burned or more recently mulched back into the topsoil to avoid "muck
away " and green waste landfill charges.

> The problem is in the word "clean". If the owners simply turn the wood
>to charcoal in pits, the noxious smoke might even be worse than at present
>(less initial CO2). The wood and slash will probably have to be first
>moved a bit to make room for the palm trees and then dried for probably a
>year or more before a clean "top down" technique can be used for combustion
>of the pyrolysis gases. With the traditional pit techniques, the pyrolysis
>gases are not combustible until well into the "burn".

(Andrew):
Dealing with fresh biomass is dealt with by a number of the high tech
processes mentioned by James Arcate. This is also addressed in our process
but in a much simpler system.

>
> So, as in my question #1 - is this Indonesian forest fire situation
>an opportunity where the problem might encourage international funding to
>find a clean manner of making charcoal? The difference in this case is
>that there should be a good profit (and long-term jobs) if the downed
>forest resource can be converted either slowly after drying or with clever
>techniques for drying using the heat from the combusted pyrolysis gases.

(Andrew):
I would welcome it if publicity of this problem highlighted by these fire
created awareness and perhaps attracted funds for the sort of
experimentation we are trying. I am sure much of the science is there, as
demonstrated by Tom Reed's conspicuous knowledge of biomass combustion on
this list. My feeling is that the time is coming right for these processes
to work on a market driven by worries about the environment rather than
competing with the low cost and high profits associated with mining fossil
fuels for the industrialised world.

AJH

Ronal W. Larson, PhD
21547 Mountsfield Dr.
Golden, CO 80401, USA
303/526-9629; FAX same with warning
larcon@sni.net

From larcon at sni.net Mon Sep 7 22:51:43 1998
From: larcon at sni.net (Ronal W. Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:04 2004
Subject: Forwarded: A request on charcoal-making from Belize
Message-ID: <v01540b0db21a4634711c@[204.133.28.14]>

Stovers - the following is fairly self-explanatory. I am sure John will
appreciate any specific help that the list can supply. The initial exchange
between John and myself is appended.
(To John - I have added you to the list. Feel free to drop off
whenever you feel appropriate. Welcome.)
Ron

John said today:
>
>Thank you for your prompt response.
>
>In answer to your questions I believe the following narative will explain
>everthing.
>
>I starting a small cahune nut processing plant. One of the major
>by-products is the shell which does make a nice dense charcoal and can be
>used to make activated carbon (It has been used in gas masks in both the
>US and UK army)
>
>In order to process a ton of nut meats we will produce 4 tons of shell
>which must be made into charcoal in order for our business to thrive.
>Belize is a country short on electical supply and when there is no rain in
>the dry season then the hydro elcetric stops. The current price for
>electricity is about $0.16US per killowat hr (get the idea for the need
>for steam, and yes the grid is available from this site). As far
>operations go batch would be fine and if there can be another smaller loop
>for a small contious system that would be great.
>
>One more small thing, do you know of anybody that deals in natural gas or
>bio-gas refrigetration?
>
>Currectly we are making charcoal in 55 gal drums with varied results. Any
>help you could give me on charcoal batches of about 100kg would be most
>appreciated.
>
>Thank you very much
>John Michalak

Stovers: The following was my initial response to John to which he has
replied as above. Ron

John - You said:
>
>Dear sirs,
>I am starting a small charcoal plant in Belize and would like to talk =
>you about your stove and the possibility of a larger scale so that I =
>could produce steam instead of cooking and we could process about 100kg =
>of charcoal in a batch.
>Thank you,
>John Michalak

First sorry for the small delay here at my end - as I had a lot of
other responsibilities for the last several days. It is not clear that you
did indeed intend to reach me - as I am the list coordinator - but also
very interested in your specific topic. I have been promoting a family
size unit producing less than 1 kG of kG per meal - and perhaps you did
indeed mean to write me. Others on our list have been doing similar
things. Before we go to the full list, perhaps you could give more
details.

What is the steam need? Is is a continuous need or batch? Why 100
kg? Will this be in a remote rural location or can we assume that
electricity wll be available?

We have many times pleaded with charcoal makers to find another
co-product use for the valuable waste pyrolysis gases. So you inquiry is
most welcome. Getting to 100 kG/batch may exceed the top-down pyrolysis
process we have been promoting - but I and several others on this list
would love to be able to try to help you extend the technique to that
scale.

I need to understand how much you have read about charcoal-making
stoves. There is a great deal in our archives and a good bit more on a web
page run by Alex English:

http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html

I look forward to hearing back from you. I think you should join our list
but will wait for your OK.

Regards Ron

Ronal W. Larson, PhD
21547 Mountsfield Dr.
Golden, CO 80401, USA
303/526-9629; FAX same with warning
larcon@sni.net

From Robbcpc at aol.com Tue Sep 8 11:26:46 1998
From: Robbcpc at aol.com (Robbcpc@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:04 2004
Subject: Forest Fires In Indonesia
Message-ID: <55e9992b.35f54f0f@aol.com>

Re: Land Clearing and Open Burning In Indonesia

Through our renewable energy systems joint venture in Indonesia, Community
Power Corporation has a long and formal working relationship with one of the
government agencies that is trying to find environmentally sustainable
alternatives to clearing nonproductive land through the very old, yet banned
practice, of open burning. Certainly, the debacle of runaway fires in Sumatra
and Kalimantan brought on last year by an extremely dry period has added great
impetus to the quest for alternatives. The incredibly dense smoke from these
fires substantially reduced the electricity service our customers were able to
receive from their photovoltaic home power systems in communities located at
the heart of the problem areas in Sumatra.

Although our company is focused on the development and application of small,
renewable energy-based modular power systems that provide electricity services
to rural and isolated communities, we have become very sensitive to the
extreme economic and quality of life consequences of open burning. As a
result of our close relationships in Indonesia, we have been requested by the
government and private sector to look for methods and technologies that may
offer solutions that are both environmentally and economically superior to
open burning.

Should any members of the Stoves List have possible solutions for this
problem, I would be happy to pass them on to our associates in both public
sector agencies and large private sector agro-industries in Indonesia.

Robb R. Walt
robbcpc@aol.com
Stoves List SPONSORS and ARCHIVES:
http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/stoves-list-archive/
Stoves Webpage
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For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From gpk at physics.unipune.ernet.in Wed Sep 9 04:42:34 1998
From: gpk at physics.unipune.ernet.in (Priyadarshini Karve(SBO))
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:05 2004
Subject: Jatropha and other nonedible plant oils
In-Reply-To: <35F02660.1A8D@vermontel.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980909134217.16427B-100000@physics>

On Fri, 4 Sep 1998, The Otto's wrote: (in part)

> 3. Priyadarshini Karve: Many thanks for your generous offer on plant
> material and advice. Please do give some specifics on how to access
> them. One question: when your research center selected high yielding
> plants of Jatropha curcas for propagation what 'yield' factors were used
> as the criteria: plant growth rate, number or weight of seed kernels per
> plant, percentage of oil, etc.? I ask because I've not seen any data on
> whether there are significant variations in oil yields among different
> JC plants, which could become a key consideration in the efficiency of
> plant oils as alternative fuels and would play an important role in
> eventual promotion strategies, e.g., how many lineal meters of JC hedge
> would be needed to supply a household's domestic energy needs. ANY NEWS
> OF STOVE DEVELPMENT USING PLANT OIL AS FUEL FROM YOUR PART OF THE WORLD
> IS EAGERLY AWAITED IN AFRICA. By the way, kids and adults in Tanzania
> also used to string Jatropha seeds on short bits of wire for night
> lighting, and I've done demonstrations of JC seeds skewered on a bent
> paperclip to show the impressive burning qualitiy of this future fuel
> source. Just mind the smoke alarm systems in modern buildings because
> the whole seeds burn with considerable smoke, as you noted. And a last
> thought: if liquid fuel applications prove too complex and/or expensive
> for village-level users, might whole JC seed be tested in a charcoal
> stove, perhaps with a brief period of preburning before cooking begins
> (as is typical of charcoal use in barbeque grills) to eliminate most of
> the smoke?

Dear Mr. Otto,
Thanks for your interest in my offer. Several other people too
have shown interest so I am addressing this to the entire list.
We can provide 'stumps' of the plants packed in moist sacking. The
plants will have to be airlifted from Mumbai (Bombay) and planted
IMMIDIATELY on arrival. The best and safest option is for a person to
carry the package. So that the stumps can be kept moist during transit.
It will take us some time to prepare the plantlets depending on
the number of plants required. We will have to charge you at least our out
of pocket expenses (depending on the number and type of plants required).
The transportation charge and other costs shall also have to be borne by
you. We can provide instructions regarding planting and nurturing the
plants. Alternatively, our botanist can come with the plants and
personally supervise the planting. Needless to say, his travelling
expenses and per diem will have to be borne by you.
As far as Africa is concerned, these plant species must be
indegenously available in several locations. We can provide
advice/training regarding multiplication, for a consultancy fee. We have
developed several low cost and low tech nursery techniques that can be
employed in a village-based nursery.
I had said in an earlier message that I will let you know of the
commercial potential of the nonedible oil species in India. My vague
information was confirmed by our botanists:
There are about 50 plant species yielding nonedible oil in India.
The plants grow wild and the seed is collected by poor people and sold.
The oils cost about half as much as edible ones. The seeds contain
saponins, phenolics, poisonous proteins, steroids, alkaloids etc, which
get coextracted with the oil. Therefore these oils are used primarily in
soap making. For this the oils are split into their compound fatty acids.
The pure fatty acids are mixed to give the typical mixture that the
particular brand of soap needs, and titrated with caustic soda to get the
soap.
To answer your question regarding the selection of elite plants:
We had a project of domesticating plant species yielding minor forest
products. Our botanists went around the villages of the western ghat
region of Maharashtra asking the local people regarding the high yielding
(i.e. mainly the number, size and weight of the seeds, in the case of the
nonedible oil species) plants in their locality. All such plants were
selected and multiplied either by the technique of rooting of cuttings or,
when the cuttings did not root, seedlings were prepared and grafting was
done. The plants were grown in our field and then the best ones were
selected for further propogation. Trials are being conducted in different
locations to standardise the cultivation techniques.
I had an informal discussion on the subject of nonedible oils with
some of my senior colleagues on the basis of the exchange of information
in this group. Similar to your line of thinking, we also arrived at the
idea of trying to find a way of using the seeds themselves as fuel! I am
seriously contemplating on taking up an experiment in this regard.
Let's keep each other posted.
With regards,
Priyadarshini Karve.

From CAMPBELLDB at cdm.com Thu Sep 10 09:06:07 1998
From: CAMPBELLDB at cdm.com (Dan Campbell)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:05 2004
Subject: Info request from South Africa & conference announcement
Message-ID: <199809101314.JAA05042@cdm.com>

We are mailing David some EHP reports on indoor air pollution and would
appreciate responses to David from others. Also enclosed is an announcement
of
an international conference on indoor air quality.

From: David Maina
Email: Maina@schonlan.src.wits.ac.za
Address: Schonland Research Centre, University of Witwatersrand,
Private Bag 3, P.O.Wits 2050, Johannesburg, South Africa

Subject: Re: literature on indoor air pollution

Dear Campbell,

Radon is gas which is one of the products in the Uranium decay
series. Itself it is not harmful but when it decays, alpha radiation
is emmited and this is harmful. Its decay products are referred to as
radon daughters and they too undergo decay and emmit radiation which
of course is harmful. In the open and well ventillated rooms this may
not be a problem but in an enclosed area this is a health problem.

I am investigating the role of wood smoke in transporting these radon
daughters into the lungs. My research is based in Taita Taveta in
Kenya, primarily because this is an area with known radioactivity
levels and also people use wood fuel which is a source of smoke.

I am interested in indoor air pollution and I would appreciate any
literature on it.

Currently I am in the South Africa carring out radon measurements as
part of my Ph D work and I will be here for the next 3 months.
**********************************************************

From: Rkfabf@aol.com
Subject: Indoor Air 99 Conference Announcement

(Indoor Air 99 announcement was provided for posting to the IAQ List by:
Prof. Gary Raw, President of Indoor Air 99)

"The biggest conference in IAQ is happening next year (August 8-13) in
Edinburgh, Scotland and the deadline for abstracts is fast
approaching. Check the Indoor Air 99 web
site at http://www.ia99.org
or email ia99@bre.co.uk for a hard copy of the announcement. Don't miss this
opportunity for networking and maybe follow up with a great vacation
at the Edinburgh Arts Festival."

For Further Information E-Mail: ia99@bre.co.uk

From woodcoal at mailbox.alkor.ru Fri Sep 11 05:11:43 1998
From: woodcoal at mailbox.alkor.ru (Woodcoal)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:05 2004
Subject: I did not receive any letters
Message-ID: <199809110922.NAA24732@ns.alkor.ru>

Stovers,
I did not receive any letters from stovers since September 8. Whether it is
possible, what everyone have broken off? Can be there are difficulties at
my mail?
Sincerely Yury Yudkevitch (Rossia)
Stoves List SPONSORS and ARCHIVES:
http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/stoves-list-archive/
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For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From dstill at epud.org Fri Sep 11 23:31:29 1998
From: dstill at epud.org (Dean Still)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:05 2004
Subject: Big pots equal high efficiency
Message-ID: <199809120338.UAA07729@epud.org>

Dear Stovers:

We just finished tests of our biggest Rocket stove in response to the
International Red Cross looking for an efficient stove to feed lots of
people. If the results were good enough we figured to send them drawings.

The pot that we used was a thirty three gallon drum. A skirt made from a
fifty five gallon drum surrounded the smaller drum creating an inch gap-
maintaining an equal cross sectional area throughout the stove. The
removable top of the fifty five gallon drum was cut to very nicely fill in
the top of the gap about three inches below the open top of the pot. It
stays with the smaller drum when removed for cleaning.

Without insulating the stove, we got pretty high results, 32.8 % of the
btu's from ten pounds of wood (estimating 8,600/pound) entered the water,
resulting in a temperature rise of 105 degrees F. Tomorrow we'll do a
longer boiling test.

But I just couldn't resist commenting on how high efficiencies rise when
using bigger pots full of water! More surface area of the pot is in contact
with the water, the ratio is smaller in smaller pots, especially if they
are not full.The fuller the pot the higher the efficiency. (Took me a while
to realize this, showing my sorry state!)

I'm also looking forward to insulating this big stove and measuring the
difference. I'll report back on this.

Having Fun,

Dean
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From REEDTB at compuserve.com Sun Sep 13 11:53:50 1998
From: REEDTB at compuserve.com (Tom Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:05 2004
Subject: Indonesia and other smoke redediation
Message-ID: <199809131203_MC2-5952-FF76@compuserve.com>

Dear Ron et al:

Your message is loud and clear - and heart rending. I am glad you pointed
out that this is not a modern problem caused by industrialization, but has
been the fate of humans since the discovery of fire and charcoal. I have
had just a touch of chronic inhalation related lung problems in early
testing days and will repeat my warning to ALL of you to provide good
insulation in your test areas.

Some thoughts for Ron et all:

1) Top down burning to make charcoal seems to be a NEW mode of production
in a very old art - but it does require moderately dry wood, since the fire
must propogate down against the flow of air. (I hope someone can tell me
the limit - if not I plan to run tests.) As the fire propogates downward,
each new piece is sumultaneously drying and pyrolysing, so that the
resulting gas is diluted with steam from wet wood and eventually won't
burn.

2) I pointed out previously that conventional bottom heat charcoal making
produces first steam, then uncombustible steam-gas, a yellow choking cloud,
and finally combustible gas (if you take care to provide air and ignition.)

3) Freshly cut wood typically contains 50% moisture. Ron's suggestion that
combustion of gas from top down be used for drying typically wet wood is
sound. There's more than enough heat available. However, I haven't seen
much evidence of appreciation of the subtleties of wood drying in STOVES of
GASIFICATION. Too high a temperature in drying can produce blue haze as
the outside of the wood overheats while the inside is still wet.

Onward....
TOM REED

Message text written by Ronal W. Larson
>
Stovers:
I just finished reading the August issue of National Geographic
(pages 100-118), where there is a very disturbing account of the terrible
smoke that afflicted large parts of Indonesia during August-October of
1997. The good writing (Pulitzer prize-winning author) and excellent
photographs that NG are noted for led me to two ideas that have connections
to this list:

Other comments? Ron

Ronal W. Larson, PhD
21547 Mountsfield Dr.
Golden, CO 80401, USA
303/526-9629; FAX same with warning
larcon@sni.net

From REEDTB at compuserve.com Sun Sep 13 11:53:56 1998
From: REEDTB at compuserve.com (Tom Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:05 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Not goodbye, Doug Williams, I hope
Message-ID: <199809131203_MC2-5952-FF6E@compuserve.com>

Dear Doug et al:

Doug's discouragement with biomass gasification is a disease that could
affect us all. Here's an immunization ANTIDOTE against RENEWABLE ENERGY
pessimism.

1) Biomass energy is our special interest, but not that of the general
public or governments. As long as oil remains cheap we can't expect the
world to beat on our doors.

2) Cheap oil is merely a blip on the pages of history. In 10 - or 30 or
50 years it will increase 10fold to its true value.

3) Until that happens, we have a unique opportunity to develop one of the
major replacements - renewable biomass energy and its various
manifestations, gasification, methanol, ethanol, biogas .... and other
renewable energy technologies, hydro, PV, TPV, thermoelectrics, wind,
direct, ....

4) For the time being there are special niches for biomass energy where it
does fit economically or can find development funds.

5) When the 10fold increase does occur there will be too much money for
developing alternatives and it will again become a principal obsession,
highly politicized and frantic.

So enjoy this brief respite between the false energy crisis of 1974 and the
coming Armageddon of Energy in 20 - - . I hope Doug can hang in there, at
least on the web and here.

Keep the faith for our children,... and civilization
TOM REED
Stoves List SPONSORS and ARCHIVES:
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From english at adan.kingston.net Mon Sep 14 21:22:18 1998
From: english at adan.kingston.net (*.English)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:05 2004
Subject: (Fwd) PV to DS
Message-ID: <199809150133.VAA14082@adan.kingston.net>

Dear Dean,

Just read about your results with a large Rocket stove, about 32.8 %.
That is a reasonably high efficiency but rather lower than I expected given
the configuration.

Way back Piet Visser (now at BTG, had a web site) won a bet with Paul
Bussmann when his "Shielded fire" reached an efficiency of 50 %.

Now, your pan is much larger than Piet's, so under similar conditions you
should have exceeded 50 %.
The only reason I can think of is that perhaps your fire was rather small.
Offhand I think for the kind of pan you use, you would need a fire of at
least 40 kW.

There is a table of pan sizes, liquid content and optimal fire power output
in some of the literature our Woodburning Stove Group has produced, some of
which could still be at Approvecho.

Keep up the good work, best regards,

Piet Verhaart
Peter Verhaart, 6 McDonald St. Gracemere Q 4702 Australia
Phone: +61 7 4933 1761; fax: +61 7 4933 1761 or
+61 7 4933 2112 (when computer is on); mobile: 0412 457239
E-mail p.verhaart@cqu.edu.au

From english at adan.kingston.net Mon Sep 14 21:22:23 1998
From: english at adan.kingston.net (*.English)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:05 2004
Subject: Forward: Peter Verhaart to Dean Still
Message-ID: <199809150133.VAA14102@adan.kingston.net>

Stovers - Peter Verhaart's "stoves" response to Dean Still's got
bumped to me. The rest is from Peter (Peter-Should I change your
address?): (Ron)

Dear Dean,

Just read about your results with a large Rocket
stove,
about 32.8 %.
That is a reasonably high efficiency but rather lower than I expected
given the configuration.

Way back Piet Visser (now at BTG, had a web site) won a bet with Paul
Bussmann when his "Shielded fire" reached an efficiency of 50 %.

Now, your pan is much larger than Piet's, so under similar conditions
you should have exceeded 50 %. The only reason I can think of is that
perhaps your fire was rather small. Offhand I think for the kind of
pan you use, you would need a fire of at least 40 kW.

There is a table of pan sizes, liquid content and optimal fire power
output in some of the literature our Woodburning Stove Group has
produced, some of which could still be at Approvecho.

Keep up the good work, best regards,

Ronal W. Larson, PhD
21547 Mountsfield Dr.
Golden, CO 80401, USA
303/526-9629; FAX same with warning
larcon@sni.net

From english at adan.kingston.net Mon Sep 14 21:22:20 1998
From: english at adan.kingston.net (*.English)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:05 2004
Subject: Forward More: Peter Verhaart to Dean Still
Message-ID: <199809150133.VAA14093@adan.kingston.net>

Dear Dean,

In answer to your question, I reproduced a table below. Not knowing how
this will survive the transport I attach a MS Excell file, hoping you can
open that.

Pan size, food quantities and optimal fire power for use with the open fire

Panbottom Mass of Height of Relative Open fire
diameter food and food and height of heat output
and water water in pan contents in pan rate
cm kg cm
--- kW

12 0.50 4.40 0.51 1.58
16 1.31 6.50 0.60 2.80
20 2.71 8.60 0.65 4.38
24 4.86 10.70 0.70 6.30
28 7.93 12.90 0.72 8.60
30 9.85 13.90 0.74 9.86
36 17.50 17.20 0.77 14.22
40 24.30 19.30 0.79 17.54
44 32.70 21.50 0.80 21.22
50 48.30 24.60 0.81 27.46

The table was adapted from the Netherlands VEG Standards for domestic gas
ranges. They typically have a heat transfer efficiency of 70 % (if I
remember correctly). The above table was adapted taking into account a
reasonable heat transfer efficiency for an open fire. I wish I remembered
what the number was.
The rocket stove problably has a higher heat transfer efficiency so offhand
I would say you could reduce the power by 5 to 10 percentage points.

The table was part of a paper (which could still be in the Stoves archives,
the title is: Making do with the open fire.)

The required firepower has to do with the surface area of the panbottom so
it is not surprising to find the firepower to be diameter squared times a
constant.

Hoping this will be of some use to you. Keep up the good work.

Best regards,

Piet

Peter Verhaart, 6 McDonald St. Gracemere Q 4702 Australia
Phone: +61 7 4933 1761; fax: +61 7 4933 1761 or
+61 7 4933 2112 (when computer is on); mobile: 0412 457239
E-mail p.verhaart@cqu.edu.au
--=====================_905742233==_--

From larcon at sni.net Tue Sep 15 01:46:05 1998
From: larcon at sni.net (Ronal W. Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:05 2004
Subject: New E-Mail Address for Elsen Karstad
Message-ID: <v01540b03b2239a2b35df@[204.133.28.46]>

Stovers: The following message came in from Elsen (who for a few weeks
should be receiving two "stoves" messages): (Ron)

Hello all;

I've seen the light! Out with the old and in with the new........

Please note my new e-mail address:

elk@net2000ke.com

I will be running concurrently with the former server 'till end Sept '98,
so a two week adjustment period will be allowed for...... mail sent to the
new address will be collected at home, mail to the old address
(elk@arcc.or.ke) will be read at the office until month's end- then it's
all - elk@net2000ke.com - and much faster!

Thanks for taking note.

elk

From larcon at sni.net Sun Sep 20 20:45:10 1998
From: larcon at sni.net (Ronal W. Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:05 2004
Subject: A non-member request for help
Message-ID: <v01540b08b22b52adbe5f@[204.133.28.25]>

Stovers: This following non-member request for assistance has just come
in. Ron

>
>I would be very interested in information on kiln design and input for
>carbonization and activation of coconut shells. I am also interested in
>briquetting fines. I would like to construct a Missouri kiln to operate in
>Mexico. Please respond if this is of interest. Employment opportunity, growth
>business.
>
>Mike Millar
>Minera Toltec S.A. de C.V.
>Chihuahau, CHI.
>Mexico
>
>(52) 14 14 14 16 (phone /fax)
>
>Or Canada (604) 926 1613 / fax (604 926 1646)

Taygrc@aol.com

Ronal W. Larson, PhD
21547 Mountsfield Dr.
Golden, CO 80401, USA
303/526-9629; FAX same with warning
larcon@sni.net

From greensue at hotmail.com Mon Sep 21 01:25:29 1998
From: greensue at hotmail.com (Susanne Machler)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:05 2004
Subject: A non-member request for help
Message-ID: <19980921053600.16316.qmail@hotmail.com>

I would also be interested in this!! Please send me any relevant info as
well. Thanks to all those people who have helped me in my quest for
Mylar, activated charcoal, building a gasifier etc. Been under the
weather lately, flu going around and so have still not replied to many
folks but MUCH THANKS to all!!

Your sincerely,

Sue Maechler. (Our Homestead homepage will be announced soon!!)

Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 18:57:57 -0600
To: stoves@crest.org
From: larcon@sni.net (Ronal W. Larson)
Subject: A non-member request for help
Cc: Taygrc@aol.com

Stovers: This following non-member request for assistance has just come
in. Ron

>
>I would be very interested in information on kiln design and input for
>carbonization and activation of coconut shells. I am also interested in
>briquetting fines. I would like to construct a Missouri kiln to operate
in
>Mexico. Please respond if this is of interest. Employment opportunity,
growth
>business.
>
>Mike Millar
>Minera Toltec S.A. de C.V.
>Chihuahau, CHI.
>Mexico
>
>(52) 14 14 14 16 (phone /fax)
>
>Or Canada (604) 926 1613 / fax (604 926 1646)

Taygrc@aol.com

Ronal W. Larson, PhD
21547 Mountsfield Dr.
Golden, CO 80401, USA
303/526-9629; FAX same with warning
larcon@sni.net

______________________________________________________
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From REEDTB at compuserve.com Mon Sep 21 08:44:37 1998
From: REEDTB at compuserve.com (Tom Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:05 2004
Subject: Welcome to Stoves, Jiang Jianchun
Message-ID: <199809210855_MC2-5A16-489D@compuserve.com>

Dear Jiang:

We are a group interested in stoves that can burn biomass (such as:
sawdust, rice husk, straw, wood chip etc.) cleanly for developing countries
today and others when fossil fuels begin to disappear.

I am particularly interested in WOOD-GAS stoves (not WOOD stoves), since
they can

burn cleanly and efficiently
have good turndown

A number of us have been working at this site for several years. You
should read our archives and visit the Alex English WEB site to see
pictures of the various stoves that have been developed.

To join the site, simply send the message "subscribe stoves" to
MAJORDOMO@CREST.ORG. in the main body of the E-mail message. (Subject
could be stoves.)

Dr. Ron Larson is the moderator of this group. I am the moderator of a
related group, GASIFICATION. If you wish to join that too, add "subscribe
gasification" to the same E-mail letter. The overall group is called
BIOMASS, and you can also subscribe to that in same message if you say
"subscribe biomass". If you wish to unsubscribe to any of these groups,
just send the message "unsubscribe stoves" (etc.) to MAJORDOMO@CREST.ORG.
This will all happen automatically.
~~~~~
We would very much like to know more about your work, where you are, and
what your plans are. Welcome to CREST.

Message text written by "Jiang Jianchun"
>Dear Sir,
=20
I'm an associate research professor working at conversion of biomass =
(such as: sawdust, rice husk, straw, wood chip etc.). Now I'm in charge =
of national key projects(biomass catalytic/rich oxygen gasification for =
civil cooking gas. If you interest in our research works,I'll write to =
you.=20
=20
Now I want to get some publications about how to converse biomass into =
fuels efficiently from you. I'll very appreciate you if you can send me =
some information. My E-mail: Jiangjc@public1.js.cn
=20
Enclosed my Resume. I'm looking forward to hear form you.Thank you very =
much!
=20
yours sincerely
=20
Jiang Jianchun =20
<

From larcon at sni.net Mon Sep 21 12:34:23 1998
From: larcon at sni.net (Ronal W. Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:05 2004
Subject: No news in bad news
Message-ID: <v01540b00b22c331a7867@[204.133.28.2]>

Stovers: I meant yesterday's e-mail to Jonathon to go the full list - so I
will forward it now. Ron

>Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 18:57:50 -0600
>To:"The Otto's" <otto@vermontel.com>
>From:larcon@sni.net (Ronal W. Larson)
>Subject:Re: No news in bad news
>
>Jonathan, you said -
>
>>Ron,
>>
>>No stoves messages since 13 September and I'm getting withdrawls!
>>To quote the lovely English of Yury Yudkevitch of earlier this month:
>>"Whether is possible, what everyone have broken off?"
>>
>>Greetings to you and Gretchen from
>>An addicted stover,
>>Jonathan
>
>To Jonathan:
>
> Me too! I owe the stoves group a lot of messages, but have been
>very busy with another life as the Secretary of the Colorado Renewable
>Energy Society - CRES. We just finished a 2 day conference in the
>Colorado mountains and I have even more responsibilities now after more
>than 150 persons showed up (we expected 75 a month ago) for our first ever
>such meeting. We have grown to 350 members (also 30 corporate members) in
>about 2 years and are told we are the fastest growing chapter in the
>American Solar Energy Society (ASES).
>
> Unfortunately the work biomass barely showed up, as CRES is now
>concentrating on a lot of present opportunities for both green housing and
>green electricity (mainly wind, but some interest in PV). I think I have
>another week or so before I can get back to stoves.
>
>To Stovers -
>
> In order to make sure that Jonathan (and others?) do not suffer
>too much in this withdrawal period, I hope someone can fill in the lull
>with a brief report of anything new that they may have discovered. Even
>better for raising a discussion always is mention of a problem.
>
> I'm really looking forward to getting back to stoves and charcoal.
>
> After writing the above, I opened a message again from Mexico on
>charcoal making, To save time, I am just sending this on unedited - but I
>hope someone can help suggest the problems with Missouri kilns - and
>better ways to make charcoal.
>
> Ron
>
>

Ronal W. Larson, PhD
21547 Mountsfield Dr.
Golden, CO 80401, USA
303/526-9629; FAX same with warning
larcon@sni.net

From woodcoal at mailbox.alkor.ru Tue Sep 22 09:07:55 1998
From: woodcoal at mailbox.alkor.ru (Woodcoal)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:05 2004
Subject: No news in bad news
Message-ID: <199809221318.RAA06537@ns.alkor.ru>

Jonathan, you said to Ron,

>To quote the lovely English of Yury Yudkevitch of earlier this month:
> >>"Whether is possible, what everyone have broken off?"
Dear Jonathan,
Your criticism is completely fair. Mine English is very bad. I had not
colloquial practice with the people who speak in English. If you are very
much grieved by mine English, I am ready to write to you on Russian. I
think here will be less ridiculous mistakes. (It is jokes and I have not
taken offence.)

Ron said to Stovers -

> I'm really looking forward to getting back to stoves and
charcoal.
> After writing the above, I opened a message again from Mexico on
> >charcoal making, To save time, I am just sending this on unedited - but
I
> >hope someone can help suggest the problems with Missouri kilns - and
better ways to make charcoal.
> Ron
My colleagues and I worked on ours new the device at the summer . The
device includes the furnace for reception charcoal, furnace for activation
and device for reception overheat of water pairs. The principle of
organization of process is, that the thermal flows from furnace
consistently pass of pairs to overheat, activator, pairs maker, furnace
for manufacturing charcoal, heater of water and dryer. The raw material
acts in a dryer, from it in the furnace for manufacturing charcoal, then in
the activator. Water acts in a heater of water, then in pairs maker, and
formed of pairs in pairs overheater. Pairs and gases from charcoal the
furnaces and activator on special channels act in torches on burning. Such
organization of passage of four flows allows rationally to use warmly,
formed in process and provides ecological cleanliness of system as a whole.
I think, that there is no other technology allowing to receive good active
coal in a wood. I hope, that I can show full details little bit later. We
have submitted the patent application and the first examination was
positive.
Sincerely Yury Yudkevitch (Rossia)
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From BeedieD at cardiff.ac.uk Wed Sep 23 07:15:06 1998
From: BeedieD at cardiff.ac.uk (David Beedie)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:05 2004
Subject: Peter Verhaart on "Emission targets for Wood Fueled Cooking
In-Reply-To: <v01540b01b20d1ad4d71e@[204.133.28.32]>
Message-ID: <B5D0141FB3@NPRDCF1S.CF.AC.UK>

Piet,
I reply to a message from you (excerpted below) which reached the
stoves list via Ron Larson on 28/8/98. I am this far behind my list
emails so I hope I am not discussing stuff which has been adequately
covered since. I usually only have time to scan (lurk) but on this
subject I have made measurements so feel a contribution might be
useful...

My measurements on a nominal 200kW gasifier-combustor (made during my
PhD studies) found that rises in CO at any time during the fuel cycle
were correlated with falls in combustor exit temperature, which in
turn correlated very tightly with increases in Excess Air. The rise
in CO at the end of the fuel cycle, if not pre-empted with
appropriate reloading, was no different, other than being the largest
and most sustained excursion from good behaviour. I felt that
the exponential relationship of reaction rate to temperature
explained the sensitivity of CO production to excess air control.
In the system I analysed this relationship did appear consistent
throughout the fuel cycle, so it did not appear to be necessary to
invoke any extra factors such as catalysis by water vapour.
But I'd be interested to hear if the water vapour theory has been
pursued...
Regards, Dave.

Excerpt:
> On 24/8 you mentioned an increase in CO emissions during
> charcoal
> burning.
> We observed a similar rise in the Downdraft burner. This occurred
> after all the wood had turned into charcoal and no more fresh wood
> was fed. At this point temperature would also drop but not very
> much, and there is plenty oxygen around. The only possible
> explanation we could think of was absence of water vapour (is
> supposed to catalyse the CO - CO2 reaction) after volatiles have
> burned up. As we have often mentioned, the DD burner burned
> extermely clean, no smell. The venom resided in the tail.
>
***********************************
Dr D.Beedie, School of Engineering, University of Wales, Cardiff, UK
email: BeedieD@cf.ac.uk
Home tel. 01222 762197
Office Tel. 01222 874683; or 874000 ext.5927(lab.)
Home tel: 762197
Stoves List SPONSORS and ARCHIVES:
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From REEDTB at compuserve.com Wed Sep 23 08:57:01 1998
From: REEDTB at compuserve.com (Tom Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:05 2004
Subject: Flame temperature measurement - thermocouples not!
Message-ID: <199809230907_MC2-5A5F-4F3C@compuserve.com>

STOVES, GASIFICATION and all others interested in truth in temperatures:

There has been occasional reference to thermocouples for measuring flame
temperatures.

I recently wrote ... >A thermocouple in a moderate velocity flame with
temperature of 2,000C (like a Bunsen burner flame) will
only read 1000C because it radiates the heat away. It is VERY difficult to
measure flame temeratures directly - the thermocouple is really measuring
heat transfer, which is useful once you understand this limitation.

~~~~~
Here is an expanded explanation of that reply.

Concerning thermocouples and flame temperatures....

One can easily calculate the adiabatic (thermodynamic) temperature of air
flames or look them up in various handbooks. Almost all air-fuel
temperatures fall in the range 1800-2100C (exceptions, unstable fuels like
acetylene). Of course this is the peak flame temperature for premixed
flames; postmixed and rich or lean flames will be less.

The flame gases N2, CO2 and H2O are transparent to visible and IR unless
they are over a meter thick and they don't emit or absorb much visible or
IR either. (You can check this by putting your finger 1 cm to the side of
a bunsen or candle flame. No radiant heat. Now put your finger IN the
flame. OUCH!!)

HEAT LOSS: So, the thermocouple effectively radiates energy away at a rate
given by the black body equation

Wout = e s A (Ttc^4)

(where e is the emissivity (~ .5 for stainless steel); s is the Stefan
Bolzmann constant, 5.67 X 10^-12 W/cm2-deg^4; A is the radiating area, and
Ttc is the absolute temp of the thermocouple.)

HEAT GAIN: So, you can equate this loss to the gain from the flame and
come up with a good estimate of the heat transfer from the flame

Win = h A(Tfl - Ttc)

(where h is the heat transfer coefficient) and solve for h. h is
dependent on both Tfl and the velocity of the flame. Since the temperature
is fixed in a narrow range (1800-2100 for air; 3,000 - 3400 for O2),
velocity is a prime variable and welding torces etc. are designed to have a
high flame velocity and heat transfer.

SO, you can use thermocouples in flames to measure relative heat transfer
but NOT flame temperature.

To measure the flame temperature hire NTIS - or use a "suction
thermocouple". This consists of a thermocouple surrounded by many
radiation shields to prevent radiant heat loss, Wout. Flame gases are
drawn over the thermocouple at high velocity with a vacuum pump to enhance
Win. You will need a HIGH TEMPERATURE TC, pt/pt-rh or better. This method
will come quite close to giving the correct flame temperature. Or you can
calculate it from flame conditions.

I hope this is useful to this group.

TOM REED

From REEDTB at compuserve.com Thu Sep 24 10:45:37 1998
From: REEDTB at compuserve.com (Tom Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:05 2004
Subject: Wood-gas stoves
Message-ID: <199809241056_MC2-5A81-A5CD@compuserve.com>

Dear Tim:

Glad to have you making stoves and say "hi" to Mark Bryden for me. Here
are comments on questions.

Message text written by Tim Dorenkamp
>From: Tim Dorenkamp <tddoren@iastate.edu>

Tom,
I am attempting to build a version of your 2-can inverted
downdraft gasifier stove which you have described on the Stoves website.
I am working under the direction of Mark Bryden at Iowa State
University, and I was wondering if you could give me any useful advice.

Let me describe the stove I have most recently tried. It is made of two
cans, each about 3 inches in diameter and 4-5 inches tall. There is
about a 1/8 inch gap between them for secondary air, and I have an
adjustable cover on the primary air inlets to control the air intake. I
also have wrapped the top and bottom cans with fiberglass insulation. I
loaded the bottom with 1/4 inch diameter sticks packed vertically. They
come up to about 1/2 inch below the top of the bottom can. I light them
initially with a propane torch, and then I adjust the primary air to try
to limit the flame. What I got, once it kind of stabilized, was an
orange-blue flame that seemed to originate just below the secondary air
inlet. Now how do I know if this is gasification going on, or if it is
just the flame from the sticks burning? Do you have any suggestions for
my design, with my goal being to achieve the glorious blue flame?

I TYPICALLY USE 6 INCH DIAMETER COFFEE CANS FOR LONGER BURN TIMES, BUT 3 IN
IS OK. I USE A 6 INCH OD, 5 INCH ID RISER SLEEVE AS LINER. AFTER THE
FLAME IS ESTABLISHED, YOU CAN CONVINCE YOURSELF THAT IT IS GASIFICATION BY
EXTINGUISHING IT ABOVE THE FUEL. GAS AND TAR WILL CONTINUE TO RISE AND YOU
CAN RE-LIGHT IT.

THE PRINCIPAL PROBLEM IN ACHIEVING A BLUE FLAME IS THAT THE AREA OF THE
UPPER CAN IS TOO LARGE FOR THE AMOUNT OF GAS PRODUCED, SO THE FLAME WANDERS
AROUND IN THE BURNER CAN. YOU NEED MORE DRAFT AND LESS AREA TO GET A TRUE
BLUE FLAME. RON AND I ACHIEVED THIS BY INSERTING (HANGING FROM CROSS
WIRES) A 4 INCH DIAMETER CAN IN THE UPPER CHIMNEY TO FORM AN ANNULAR RING
(SIMILAR TO THE FLAME SIZE ON A GAS STOVE). THE GREATLY IMPROVES DRAFT
AND GIVES BLUE FLAME AT THE SECONDARY AIR ENTRY.

I have not been able to find any riser sleeves in Ames, IA. Where do
you suggest looking? Would you be able to send one to Mark or myself?
Three or four inch ID would be great.

I PURHASED A SELECTION OF THESE SLEEVES FROM STEVE MCCOMBS AT UNI-WEST,
4401 E. 46TH AVE., STE 8, DENVER CO 80216 3261, 303 388 1224. THEY ARE
MADE BY FOSECO FOUNDRY PRODUCTS, BOX 81227, CLEVELAND OH 44181; 218 234
3551. THEY COST $2-$4 APIECE IN SMALL QUANTITIES. THEY WITHSTAND THE
TEMPERATURE OF MOLTEN STEEL, 1500 C. THEY COME IN 1 1/2, 2, 2/12; ...5 1/2;
6;7;8;9;10;12 INCH ID, NOMINAL WALL THICKNESS 1/2 INCH.

Finally, where can I find more information on gasification? I am
looking for both general information, and also more specific information
as it pertains to your design. I have spent alot of time looking
through the archives of the Stove Mailing List discussions, and I am
eager to learn more about this topic. By the way, how do I subscribe to
that list, and is there an FAQ posted somewhere?

THERE HAS BEEN A LOT OF WORK BY OTHERS ON VARIOUS OTHER DESIGNS SINCE RON
AND I PUBLISHED THIS ONE. LOOK ON ALEX ENGLISH'S WONDERFUL WEB PAGE AT
FOR PICTURES AND DESCRIPTIONS.

I AM CURRENTLY DEVELOPING A TURBO STOVE USING A SMALL BLOWER INSTEAD OF
CHIMNEYS.

Thanks a bunch for your help. I have alot of respect for the knowledge
base you stovers have acquired.

Tim Dorenkamp
<

Happy stoving and keep us all posted on how it goes....
TOM REED
Stoves List SPONSORS and ARCHIVES:
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For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From elk at net2000ke.com Thu Sep 24 12:04:41 1998
From: elk at net2000ke.com (Elsen Karstad)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:05 2004
Subject: Tom's Forced Draft Turbo Stove
Message-ID: <199809241557.SAA12957@net2000ke.com>

Tom Reed- your small blower could possibly be the cooling fan found on Pentium computer chips? I've been playing with my Zip-Stove, and recently found these Pentium coolers in a Radio-Shack store- though 12 V. and a bit expensive, they must be made in the absolute millions somewhere & should be both heat resistant and cheap if bough direct from the manufacturer.The fans have many blades- a bit like a turbine.What stove are you 'blowing'? I'm considering forced draft on my sawdust carboniser, but don't know which end to start from.elkElsen L. Karstad P.O. Box 24371Nairobi Kenyatel/fax (+ 254 2) 884437

From larcon at sni.net Fri Sep 25 01:18:20 1998
From: larcon at sni.net (Ronal W. Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:05 2004
Subject: biomass use in utilities
Message-ID: <v01540b02b230c79e5fd1@[204.133.28.39]>

Stovers - the following in yesterday and I see that it was intended for the
full stoves group - so I shall do so with a few comments.

Tomorrow may be the end of the intervention process - but I have
said so before. Our local utility has a bid out only for new capacity, so
it is not possible to push now for co-firing of biomass with coal. A
stoves list member, Scott Haase, has tried to push this option regularly,
but without success. To any member interested, Tom included, I can say
that in another few weeks, there will be another bid process for many
hundreds of MW. The only possible advantage for renewables may be a 15
year contract term vs 7 years for others. This was available in a previous
bid, but now I am fighting to get it re-instated. Let me know if you are a
possible bidder and wish to compete
against natural gas turbines and combined cycle plants.
Today, I may have won a small victory for passive design and
daylighting.
Tom - thanks for the chance to explain by absence. Ron

>Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 09:06:51 -0400
>From: Tom Reed <REEDTB@compuserve.com>
>Subject: Re: No news in bad news
>Sender: Tom Reed <REEDTB@compuserve.com>
>To: "Ronal W. Larson" <larcon@sni.net>
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by lynx.sni.net id HAA18463
>
>Dear Ron and Stovers:
>
>I had forgotten that Ron was secretary of the Colorado Solar Energy
>Society. 20 years ago I was shocked to find that they pain no attention to
>BIOMASS, the #1 solar energy source for the world today, preferring
>photovoltaics, solar concentrators etc. that may someday make a small
>contribution to our energy budget, but after 20 years of VERY generous
>funding are still below the noise level of world energy sources. (Ron and
>I both worked at SERI==>NREL in the 1970s-80s and attend the same church
>UU).
>
>So, I am glad that Ron has decided to do something practical as well as
>interesting here at STOVES.
>
>Three cheers for RON.
>
>TOM REED

Ronal W. Larson, PhD
21547 Mountsfield Dr.
Golden, CO 80401, USA
303/526-9629; FAX same with warning
larcon@sni.net

From english at adan.kingston.net Fri Sep 25 07:50:04 1998
From: english at adan.kingston.net (*.English)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:05 2004
Subject: Opacity measurements RE: Emissions Target for Wood Fueled Coo
Message-ID: <199809251200.IAA32071@adan.kingston.net>

Dear Norbert, Grant, and Stovers,

Here is a WWW link for a particulate monitor based on opacity.

http://www.reeveltd.demon.co.uk/6010.htm

Alex

From REEDTB at compuserve.com Sun Sep 27 09:43:10 1998
From: REEDTB at compuserve.com (Tom Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:05 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Gasification vs. "Just Burning"
Message-ID: <199809270953_MC2-5ACB-FAB5@compuserve.com>

Dear Tom, Ian robert luis rabello, et al:

This is an excellent question " WHY GASIFY - JUST BURN ON A GRATE", and the
answers aren't obvious.

Gasification expands the use of biomass to encompass all the uses of
natural gas and petroleum - close control of process heat as in glass
making; high efficiency power generation at small scale; and chemical
synthesis of methanol, ammonia or gasoline.

If the only use for the gas is to operate a boiler, the answer is not so
obvious.

However, the company CHIPTEC in Burlington Vt. has installed over 100
gasifiers at schools, hospitals etc., and other companies are manufacturing
similar units. These are boilers that were originally built for gas or oil.
It is economical today to replace the gas/oil with wood using a relatively
small gasifier - no scrubbers needed - rather than building a much larger
wood-fired boiler. So gasifiers are very useful in converting EXISTING
BOILERS.

~~~~~
In the case of using the gas for heat alone, the line between gasifiers and
woodburning furnaces blurs. The distinction has legal implications. Since
there are subsidies for building gasifiers and not for wood furnaces,
keeping the secondary combustion of the gases separate from the primary
gasification can be worth a lot of money. How to distinguish?

If you can find a spot in the furnace and abstract a sample of gas
representative of most of the combustion fuel before it meets the secondary
air supply, you can legally call it a gasifier. If primary and secondary
air processes are all mixed together it is a combustor.
~~~~~
I just read the posting of robert luis rabello. Wish he had been my
teacher. I hope he will look into this further and try the same project
with a gasifier. Since his turbine generated 500 Wel at 10% efficiency it
would need to be 5 kWthermal. That is only a little larger than the large
burner on a gas or electric stove.

It is amazing how small a gasifier could be for his project, and the
STOVES group regularly builds gasifiers this size with several insulated
tin cans.
~~~~~

I hope we get more comments on this question whose answers form the
foundation of this group. The manager of the DOE gasifier program in the
early 1980s, Beverly Burgher, asked the same question, so wouldn't support
gasification research. As a result the BOILER CONVERSION, POWER and
SYNTHESIS programs languished.

Yours truly, TOM
REED

Message text written by INTERNET:gasification@crest.org
>>>But why bother with building gasifiers and scrubbers if the biomass
could
>>simply be burned?
>
>The reason for large scale power generation is the higher efficiency that
>can be achieved using gas turbine combined cycle plants. "Just burning"
to
>raise steam for a Rankine cycle steam turbine is much less efficient.

Ian,

It seems to me Roberts question was one of small scale, not large scale.
Has anyone done a recent comparison of the cost and efficiency of small
scale combustion versus gasification?

The Alaska Division of Energy Update newsletter (July 1998) reported a
small scale boiler system (1000 MBh Garn 4400 stick wood boiler) that was
installed on the 2200 ft Dot Lake district heating system for $66,420. It
consumes 160 lbs wood in two hours (600 000 Btuh) and replaces $15,500
gallons of fuel oil each year to heat the "downtown" for a community of 80
people. Operating costs for wood, labor, maintenance and utiities are
figured at $8,950 per year.

What would a gasifier cost that would generate heat and power for a similar
heat load?

Tom
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
Thomas R. Miles tmiles@teleport.com
<

Thomas B. Reed: The Biomass Energy Foundation
1810 Smith Rd., Golden, CO 80401
303 278 0558V; 303 278 0560F
E-mail: reedtb@compuserve.com
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From REEDTB at compuserve.com Sun Sep 27 09:43:22 1998
From: REEDTB at compuserve.com (Tom Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:05 2004
Subject: Fans, blowers and ??? for gasifiers and stoves
Message-ID: <199809270953_MC2-5ACB-FAB7@compuserve.com>

Dear ELK

It is important to distinguish between fans and blowers. Fans move the
largest amount of air/watt, but at the smallest pressure - typically .001
inch of water. Blowers move less air, but my little Radio Shack blower has
a static pressure of almost 1 inch of water with an outlet of only 2 in2. .
So, it depends on how much air pressure you need to move the primary air
through the mass.

I believe the little muffin fans fall somewhere in between, since they have
much more sophisticated blade shapes.
Neverthesless, even the muffin fan would be very useful (and much better
than Fred Hottenroth's Sierra stove) for providing draft for stoves.

I hope someone with a draft meter will measure pressure and flow of all
three types.

I also hope anyone knowing of other blowers will post their source.

Yours truly,

Thomas B. Reed: The Biomass Energy Foundation
1810 Smith Rd., Golden, CO 80401
303 278 0558V; 303 278 0560F
E-mail: reedtb@compuserve.com

Tom Reed- your small blower could possibly be the cooling fan found on
Pentium computer chips?

I've been playing with my Zip-Stove, and recently found these Pentium
coolers in a Radio-Shack store- though 12 V. and a bit expensive, they must
be made in the absolute millions somewhere & should be both heat resistant
and cheap if bough direct from the manufacturer.

The fans have many blades- a bit like a turbine.

What stove are you 'blowing'? I'm considering forced draft on my sawdust
carboniser, but don't know which end to start from.

elk
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From english at adan.kingston.net Sun Sep 27 21:49:14 1998
From: english at adan.kingston.net (*.English)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:05 2004
Subject: Fans, blowers and ??? for gasifiers and stoves
In-Reply-To: <199809270953_MC2-5ACB-FAB7@compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <199809280200.WAA30158@adan.kingston.net>

> What stove are you 'blowing'? I'm considering forced draft on my sawdust
> carboniser, but don't know which end to start from.

> elk

Dear Elsen,
Start with a Grainger catalogue. It's online at
http://www.grainger.com/ but the paper version is easier to use and
worth waiting for. They deal around the globe. Reading their
catalogue is an education.

As far as fans and blowers go, like pumps, they have pressure vs flow
characteristics which are contained in the printed catalogue. The
only down side is you would have to come up with some Yankee dollars.

Good luck, Alex

From woodcoal at mailbox.alkor.ru Mon Sep 28 07:18:09 1998
From: woodcoal at mailbox.alkor.ru (Woodcoal)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:05 2004
Subject: about charcoal "mametan"
Message-ID: <199809281129.PAA01018@ns.alkor.ru>

Stovers,
I shall be grateful to anyone, who will give me the information about
charcoal, which do(make) in Japan. It refers to as "mametan". It is
possible to light sample, which I saw, simple match. Charcoal with such
properties make in Greece for use in church. The structure different -
greek charcoal lights up with sparks, and Japanese burns equally. What
additive use to receive such effect? What binding use for manufacturing a
briquette?
I shall be grateful to everyone, who will respond.
Sincerely Yury Yudkevitch (Rossia)
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From larcon at sni.net Tue Sep 29 14:58:19 1998
From: larcon at sni.net (Ronal W. Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:05 2004
Subject: Forwarding - charcoal lighting techniques
Message-ID: <v01540b02b236cfe08717@[204.133.28.43]>

Stovers: This fun account just in from list member Alan Scott. Ron

I thought the members of the stovers list would like this piece that came
in to me today,
ALAN SCOTT

> > LIGHTING CHARCOAL GRILLS
> > ??? or
> > WHY ENGINEERS ARE THE WAY THEY ARE...
> >
> > Our subject today is lighting charcoal grills.? One of our favorite
> > charcoal grill lighters is a guy named George Goble (really!!), a
> > computer
> > person in the Purdue University engineering department.
> >
> > Each year, Goble and a bunch of other engineers hold a picnic in West
> > Lafayette, Indiana, at which they cook hamburgers on a big grill.
> >
> > Being engineers, they began looking for practical ways to speed up
> > the
> > charcoal-lighting process. "We started by blowing the charcoal with a
> > hair dryer," Goble told me in a telephone interview.? "Then we
> > figured out
> > that it would light faster if we used a vacuum cleaner."
> >
> > If you know anything about (1) engineers and (2) guys in general, you
> > know what happened:? The purpose of the charcoal-lighting shifted
> > from
> > cooking hamburgers to seeing how fast they could light the charcoal.
> >
> > From the vacuum cleaner, they escalated to using a propane torch,?
> > then an acetylene torch.? Then Goble started using compressed pure
> > oxygen,
> > which caused the charcoal to burn much faster, because as you recall
> > from
> > chemistry class, fire is essentially the rapid combination of oxygen
> > with a reducing agent (the charcoal).
> >
> > By this point, Goble was having a pretty good time.? But in the world
> > of competitive charcoal-lighting, "pretty good" does not cut the
> > mustard.
> > Thus, Goble hit upon the idea of using - get ready - liquid oxygen.
> > This is the form of oxygen used in rocket engines; it's 295 degrees
> > below zero
> > and 600 times as dense as regular oxygen.
> >
> > On Gobel's Web page (the address is http://ghg.ecn.purdue.edu/ ), you
> > can see actual photographs and a video of Goble using a bucket
> > attached to a
> > 10-foot-long wooden handle to dump 3 gallons of liquid oxygen (not
> > sold in stores) onto a grill containing 60 pounds of charcoal and a
> > lit
> > cigarette for ignition.
> >
> > What follows is the most impressive charcoal-lighting I have ever
> > seen, featuring a large fireball that, according to Goble, reached
> > 10,000
> > degrees Fahrenheit.? The charcoal was ready for cooking in -? this
> > has to be a world record - 3 seconds.? There's also a photo of what
> > happened when Goble used the same technique on a flimsy $2.88
> > discount-store grill.? All that's
> > left is a circle of charcoal with a few shreds of metal in it.
> >
> > "Basically, the grill vaporized," said Goble.? "We were thinking of
> > returning it to the store for a refund."
> >
> > Will the 3-second barrier ever be broken?? Will engineers come up
> > with
> > a
> > new, more powerful charcoal-lighting technology?? It's something for
> > all of us to ponder this summer as we sit outside, chewing our
> > hamburgers,
> > every now and then glancing in the direction of West Lafayette,
> > Indiana,
> > looking for a mushroom cloud.
> >
> > Engineers are like that.

Check out the web site for OVENCRAFTERS at HTTP://www.nbn.com/~ovncraft

Ronal W. Larson, PhD
21547 Mountsfield Dr.
Golden, CO 80401, USA
303/526-9629; FAX same with warning
larcon@sni.net

From larcon at sni.net Tue Sep 29 14:58:27 1998
From: larcon at sni.net (Ronal W. Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:05 2004
Subject: Dr!! Priyadarshini
Message-ID: <v01540b04b236d24c18e5@[204.133.28.43]>

Stovers - In an off-list message from Priyadarshini, regarding the stoves
conference (of Jan. 2000), there was this interesting new information:

> My Ph.D. viva voce is over and so I have become a Doctor now! Most
>importantly, I am now free to concentrate fully on my work with ARTI.
> With regards,
> Priyadarshini Karve.

On behalf of all stoves list members, Congratulations to Dr. Priyadarshini!!
Ron

Ronal W. Larson, PhD
21547 Mountsfield Dr.
Golden, CO 80401, USA
303/526-9629; FAX same with warning
larcon@sni.net

From global at lw1.vsnl.net.in Wed Sep 30 00:21:45 1998
From: global at lw1.vsnl.net.in (Sandeep Saxena)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:05 2004
Subject: Dr!! Priyadarshini (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.95.980930100348.31984A-100000@lw1.vsnl.net.in>

CONGRATULATIONS !!

Sandeep Saxena
oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 13:11:43 -0600
From: "Ronal W. Larson" <larcon@sni.net>
To: stoves@crest.org
Subject: Re: Dr!! Priyadarshini

Stovers - In an off-list message from Priyadarshini, regarding the stoves
conference (of Jan. 2000), there was this interesting new information:

> My Ph.D. viva voce is over and so I have become a Doctor now! Most
>importantly, I am now free to concentrate fully on my work with ARTI.
> With regards,
> Priyadarshini Karve.

On behalf of all stoves list members, Congratulations to Dr. Priyadarshini!!
Ron

Ronal W. Larson, PhD
21547 Mountsfield Dr.
Golden, CO 80401, USA
303/526-9629; FAX same with warning
larcon@sni.net

From REEDTB at compuserve.com Wed Sep 30 07:39:24 1998
From: REEDTB at compuserve.com (Tom Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:05 2004
Subject: about charcoal "mametan"
Message-ID: <199809300749_MC2-5B1F-BC7E@compuserve.com>

Dear Yury et al:

I don't know about "mametan", but I recently came across "white charcoal"
manufactured for the Japanese barbecue market. It scratches glass and has
a belllike ring. (Only English word with 3 "l"s in a row?)

We need a charcoal institute to sort all of this out. I have quite a
collection in my garage.

Yours truly,

From rmiranda at sdnnic.org.ni Wed Sep 30 12:04:28 1998
From: rmiranda at sdnnic.org.ni (Rogerio Miranda)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:05 2004
Subject: Dr!! Priyadarshini (fwd)
Message-ID: <3.0.2.16.19980930092729.602772de@ns.sdnnic.org.ni.>

Congratulations Dr. Priyadarshini. Enjoy it, and keep up with your great work.

Regards

rogerio miranda

>X-POP3-Rcpt: rmiranda@ns
>Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 10:05:11 +0000 (GMT)
>From: Sandeep Saxena <global@lw1.vsnl.net.in>
>To: stoves@crest.org
>Subject: Re: Dr!! Priyadarshini (fwd)
>Sender: owner-stoves@crest.org
>
>
>CONGRATULATIONS !!
>
>
>Sandeep Saxena
>oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
>
>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 13:11:43 -0600
>From: "Ronal W. Larson" <larcon@sni.net>
>To: stoves@crest.org
>Subject: Re: Dr!! Priyadarshini
>
> Stovers - In an off-list message from Priyadarshini, regarding the stoves
>conference (of Jan. 2000), there was this interesting new information:
>
>
>> My Ph.D. viva voce is over and so I have become a Doctor now! Most
>>importantly, I am now free to concentrate fully on my work with ARTI.
>> With regards,
>> Priyadarshini Karve.
>
>
>On behalf of all stoves list members, Congratulations to Dr. Priyadarshini!!
> Ron
>
>Ronal W. Larson, PhD
>21547 Mountsfield Dr.
>Golden, CO 80401, USA
>303/526-9629; FAX same with warning
>larcon@sni.net
>
>
>Stoves List SPONSORS and ARCHIVES:
>http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/stoves-list-archive/
>Stoves Webpage
>http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
>For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
>http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm
>
>Stoves List SPONSORS and ARCHIVES:
>http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/stoves-list-archive/
>Stoves Webpage
>http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
>For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
>http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm
>
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Rogerio Carneiro de Miranda
ATP/PROLENA/Nicaragua
Apartado Postal C-321
Managua, Nicaragua
telefax (505) 276 2015
EM <rmiranda@sdnnic.org.ni>
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
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From ahe1 at cableol.co.uk Wed Sep 30 14:14:52 1998
From: ahe1 at cableol.co.uk (Andrew Heggie)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:05 2004
Subject: Forwarding - charcoal lighting techniques
In-Reply-To: <v01540b02b236cfe08717@[204.133.28.43]>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980930192535.006bf2f4@mail.cableol.co.uk>

At 13:11 29-09-98 -0600, you wrote:
>> > On Gobel's Web page (the address is http://ghg.ecn.purdue.edu/ ), you
>> > can see actual photographs and a video of Goble using a bucket
>> > attached to a
>> > 10-foot-long wooden handle to dump 3 gallons of liquid oxygen (not
>> > sold in stores) onto a grill containing 60 pounds of charcoal and a
>> > lit
>> > cigarette for ignition.
>> >
>> > What follows is the most impressive charcoal-lighting I have ever
>> > seen, featuring a large fireball that, according to Goble, reached
>> > 10,000
All good light hearted fun and I would not like to put a damper on it but
would urge some caution to our "younger viewers.":
IIRC Char immersed in liquid oxygen was in use as a commercial low
explosive in similar situations as ANFO. I think the it was initiated by a
small commercial charge.

I have had a couple of sharp reminders that we are playing with fire in my
experiments. Talk of dense white clouds of smoke when the two can fluffs
out remind me of a colleague I vaguely knew in 1979. Being in the timber
trade he left a scandinavian wood stove burning but damped down whilst at
work. On arriving home one day he checked the fire by opening the two front
doors. This drew a cloud of hot smoke into the room which ignited just as
he inhaled. Knowing some damage to have been done he put out the flames on
his anorak and drove himself to hospital where he expired from lung damage
some two days later.

Be careful out there.
AJH
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From ensol at actrix.gen.nz Wed Sep 30 19:16:06 1998
From: ensol at actrix.gen.nz (Shelley Hood, Rob Bishop)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:05 2004
Subject: about charcoal "mametan"
In-Reply-To: <199809281129.PAA01018@ns.alkor.ru>
Message-ID: <3612BEDF.CD2@actrix.gen.nz>

I used to burn powdered incense on charcoal blocks. They would light
with a match, and spark a little - a blue flame would tend to run around
the outside, over the whole disk, then one edge would start to glow.

I figured it was either saltpeter (KNO3 - potassium nitrate) or black
powder that was added. Anyway, it would catch fire really easily. (maybe
not 3 seconds...)

I'm a bit naive in this field, but I hope this is useful.
--
Cheers

Rob Bishop
Energy Solutions Ltd.
P.O. Box 12-558
Welington, New Zealand
ph/fax +64-4-233-8533
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BioEnergy Lists: Improved Biomass Cooking Stoves

September 1998 Biomass Cooking Stoves Archive