March 1999 Gasification Archive

For more information to help people develop better stoves for cooking with biomass fuels in developing regions, please see our web site: http://www.bioenergylists.org

From costaeec at kcnet.com Mon Mar 1 19:51:02 1999
From: costaeec at kcnet.com (Jim Dunham)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:16 2004
Subject: emergency stove
Message-ID: <004e01be644c$d680a600$480f0a0c@default>

-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Dunham <costaeec@kcnet.com>
To: english@adan.kingston.net <english@adan.kingston.net>;
rparrish@mail.win.org <rparrish@mail.win.org>; stoves@crest.org
<stoves@crest.org>
Date: Sunday, February 28, 1999 10:30 PM
Subject: Re: emergency stove

>If an emergency stove can be justified, then a supply of fuel for such a
>stove is also in order. Densified sawdust firelogs are perfect. They are
>very high in BTU's and can be stored indefinately (wrapped) in a small
area.
>They burn hot, clean, consistent, and with very little ash. There are no
>sparks, no bark, no soot, no burning cinders, and no bugs. Their
consistency
>makes usage very simple & safe
>
>There are several good brands available in WA & OR, and Enviro-Logs by mail
>order. We can direct your inquiries, if interested.
>
>Jim Dunham
>EEC, 816-452-3500
>Fax-816-452-6663
>-----Original Message-----
>From: *.english <Alex.English@adan.kingston.net>
>To: rparrish@mail.win.org <rparrish@mail.win.org>; stoves@crest.org
><stoves@crest.org>
>Date: Sunday, February 28, 1999 8:33 PM
>Subject: emergency stove
>
>
>Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 18:12:16 -0600
>From: Roger Parrish <rparrish@mail.win.org>
>Reply-to: rparrish@mail.win.org
>Organization: HOME
>To: english@adan.kingston.net
>
>Roger Parrish (not currently a stoves list subscriber) wrote:
>
>"I am looking for a low cost wood stove that can be used indoors to
>heat and cook with during times of emergency. I am looking to purchase
>in quantity for resale proposes. Any information on a stove of this
>type or plans on how to build a stove of this type would be greatly
>appreciated."
>
>Alex English replies:
>
>Roger, there are some list members, like Paul Hait of Pyromid, who
>have some experience with this market.
>
>The need for a wood stove for emergency cooking and heating was very
>real during last years ice storm, even for the relatively wealthy,
>here in the north east of North America. The current hype around
>Y2K problems is expanding the market. It begs the question; are
>simple cooking stoves, designed for daily use in the materially
>poorer regions of the world, suitable for emergency needs in places
>like Canada?
>
>Sure, why not? During an emergency all the margins of safety, which
>the building and fire codes are based on, get stretched as basic
>personal needs take precedence.
>
>The small chimneyless stoves used for cooking would likely only
>barely keep the people standing next to them warm, during
>conditions like those during the ice storm. The windows and doors
>would have to be partly open to vent the product of combustion.
>
>
>This senario seems a bit dangerous. Inexperienced people
>tending a small wood cookstove inside their homes. Where do they set
>it up? Sparks can fly! Do you think the stove should be sold with a
>large piece of sheet metal to place underneath it.
>
>Would these folks who plan for the unexpected also have a supply of
>dry fuel on hand? Or would they be trying to burn anything that
>burns. Sound familiar?
>
>If the goal is to keep the pipes freezing, then clearly a much larger
>stove is required, and should be installed properly as though it were
>used regularly.
>
>
>The vast disparity among people is some how reduced by this apparently
>shared need for heat energy from a secure affordable source. Perhaps
>the "emergency" stove market can drive some technology development
>with positive spin offs for stove users around the world, or at
>least provide a market for stoves made in poorer countries.
>
>Regards,
>
>
>
>
>Alex English
>RR 2 Odessa, Ontario, Canada
>K0H2H0 613-386-1927
> Fax 613-386-1211
>Stoves List SPONSORS and ARCHIVES:
>http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/stoves-list-archive/
>Stoves Webpage
>http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
>For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
>http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm
>
>

Stoves List SPONSORS and ARCHIVES:
http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/stoves-list-archive/
Stoves Webpage
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From Alex.English at adan.kingston.net Tue Mar 2 21:35:26 1999
From: Alex.English at adan.kingston.net (*.english)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:16 2004
Subject: (Fwd) Pyromid makes Tomahawk Lodge for Y2K
Message-ID: <199903030235.VAA26807@adan.kingston.net>

------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
From: "Paul Hait" <phait@hwy97.net>
To: <english@adan.kingston.net>
Subject: Pyromid makes Tomahawk Lodge for Y2K
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 01:55:36 -0800

Dear Alex,

We are swamped with Y2K orders. We have also been made the official Red
Cross emergency stove. They have set up the Pyromid Fund. Make a check to
the Red Cross in Bend , Oregon and put Pyromid Fund on it and they order
stoves.

The stoves will be stockpiled for World and regional disasters.

Also go to Wooska .com on the Net and you will see the Tomahawk Lodge. Great
for Canada!

Keep up the good work and go ahead and release the world stove rendering.
Sorry for the delay but we have been working with the Indians( India ) on
the project.

Have a great year and get prepared. Tell all your friends to go to Wooska
and order Pyromids. The list also.

Sincerely,
Paul Hait

Added later:

1. Make Checks payable to : American Red Cross
Pyromid Fund

Mail to:

American Red Cross
Attention : Dave Richardson, Executive Director
PO Box 6839
Bend , Oregon 97708-6839
Alex English
RR 2 Odessa, Ontario, Canada
K0H2H0 613-386-1927
Fax 613-386-1211
Stoves List SPONSORS and ARCHIVES:
http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/stoves-list-archive/
Stoves Webpage
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From Alex.English at adan.kingston.net Tue Mar 2 21:35:26 1999
From: Alex.English at adan.kingston.net (*.english)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:16 2004
Subject: (Fwd) Re: emergency stove
Message-ID: <199903030236.VAA26818@adan.kingston.net>

Dear Alex

I don't know if the reply is appropriate to the entire list, so I'm
directing it to you, and you can figger where to send my reply!! :-)
Possibly Roger, and others can build upon what I am intending to do....

I live in an electrically heated mobile home. Very expensive to heat, but
convenient, in that I am seldom home. I live in the woods, and should be
burning wood. What I propose is as follows:

Build a porch on the trailer, and install a wood stove in it. Install a
duct to the kitchen window, and in the winter when I need wood heat, fire
up the wood stove, and then open the kitchen window. The hope is that
there will be enough natural circulation established to bring "porch heat"
into the trailer. If not, I can readily supplement it with a fan.
Obviously, the fan option won't be available in the event of a power
failure.

If this was a two level building, I could have an intake from a basement
window, and a return through an upper floor window, and easily establish
natural circulation.

This solution would not go over very big in suburbia, but it may very well
be applicable to real homes, if the "heater shed" can be disguised as a
tasteful addition to the house.

The advantage to me here is that I don't have to install a stove and
chimney in the trailer.

Kindest regards,

Kevin Chisholm

ps: I do have a dead car in the tall grass that surrounds my place, and I
shoot squirrels from the kitchen window. :-)

Alex English
RR 2 Odessa, Ontario, Canada
K0H2H0 613-386-1927
Fax 613-386-1211
Stoves List SPONSORS and ARCHIVES:
http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/stoves-list-archive/
Stoves Webpage
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From Alex.English at adan.kingston.net Tue Mar 2 21:35:29 1999
From: Alex.English at adan.kingston.net (*.english)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:16 2004
Subject: Forward, Request for assistance.
Message-ID: <199903030236.VAA26832@adan.kingston.net>

This message, from a non- subscriber to this list, was sent to Ronal
and the stoves list. Alex

Ronel, please excuse me e-mailing you,but I saw some correspondence on the
internet where you discussed above subject. I could not find any really
easy reference guide to making charcoal so I am taking a chance that ypou
may be able to help, or at least guide me in the right direction.
I own a small farm in the Eastern Mpumalanga Highlands and have a major
wattle problem. Its a war that I am busy losing, and I thought that if I
set up a kiln, I might be able to uplift the locals by encouraging them to
harvest my weed for a rate per ton, and simultaneously rid the farm and
surrounding farms of a problem.
Hope I hear from you,
Jo Haden-Smith at papsmith@iafrica.com

From Alex.English at adan.kingston.net Tue Mar 2 21:35:38 1999
From: Alex.English at adan.kingston.net (*.english)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:16 2004
Subject: World Stove
Message-ID: <199903030236.VAA26877@adan.kingston.net>

Dear Stovers,
To check out an image of the World Stove, from Paul Hait, go to the
new section of the Stoves Web Page.

Alex
Alex English
RR 2 Odessa, Ontario, Canada
K0H2H0 613-386-1927
Fax 613-386-1211
Stoves List SPONSORS and ARCHIVES:
http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/stoves-list-archive/
Stoves Webpage
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From elk at net2000ke.com Wed Mar 3 00:38:05 1999
From: elk at net2000ke.com (Elsen Karstad)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:16 2004
Subject: Pyromid's World Stove
Message-ID: <199903030541.IAA27138@net2000ke.com>

Congratulations Paul!I'm curious about the labeling on the picture of the Pyromid stove recently posted on the stoves website. You have indicated "CHARCOAL MAKER PYROLYSIS STOVE" near the bottom. Could you explain how this works? The write-up only refers to how charcoal is uniquely combusted as fuel.rgds;elk~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Elsen L. Karstad , P.O. Box 24371 Nairobi Kenyaelk@net2000ke.com tel/fax (+ 254 2) 884437

From kefri at AfricaOnline.Co.Ke Wed Mar 3 02:03:29 1999
From: kefri at AfricaOnline.Co.Ke (kefri)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:16 2004
Subject: MURDER on the Internet
In-Reply-To: <199902271327.IAA27636@adan.kingston.net>
Message-ID: <36DC83EC.72C9@AfricaOnline.Co.Ke>

*.English wrote:
>
> Tom Reed wrote:
>
> > If a hacker can infect 30 million computers and each operator has to spend
> > an hour getting disinfected, that is 30 M hours stolen from Humanity. That
> > amounts to 100 lives destroyed or MURDERED!
>
> I'll take a different tack. This "virus" may have successfully
> inoculated (educated) the worlds computer users against future more
> serious offenders. If 30 million people will now refuse to open
> unrequested file attachments, our little Happy99.exe could have
> prevented species extinction. I'm referring to the sub species,
> homo nerdoid ignoramus.
>
> Happy 99 and many more, Alex
> Alex English
> RR 2 Odessa Ontario
> Canada K0H 2H0
> Tel 1-613-386-1927
> Fax 1-613-386-1211
>
> Stoves List SPONSORS and ARCHIVES:
> http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/stoves-list-archive/
> Stoves Webpage
> http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
> For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
> http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From english at adan.kingston.net Wed Mar 3 20:12:59 1999
From: english at adan.kingston.net (*.English)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:16 2004
Subject: (Fwd) From Tom Reed
Message-ID: <199903040113.UAA32330@adan.kingston.net>

Dear Andy:

I am forwarding your request to the group "STOVES@CREST.ORG". While they are
supposed to be interested primarily in cooking, they are equally interested in
charcoal production and performance.

As I said before, the "ignition temperature" of charcoal depends on so many
things that I doubt if you can generate any meaningful numbers. On the other
hand, the heat transfer from the different charcoals can be measured very
meaningfully by heating water, simulating realworld cooking. We would all
love to hear your results for such tests on different charcoals.

Personally, I feel that in the long run charcoal cooking is about the most
wasteful use of biomass you can imagine, since you have lost >60% of the
energy in the biomass in making the charcoal. I much prefer WOOD-GAS stoves
where the easily released volatiles do the initial heating/cooking and the
slower burning charcoal then maintains heat at a lower level.

But, since we live in a world of waste and charcoal cooking, it is useful to
categorize the relative performance of different charcoals and I wish you
success in your task.

Incidentally, I hope barbecue enthusiasts can tell me why barbecuing is so
popular, especially with propane on $200 grills when most barbecuers have a
nice clean oven with fan 50 feet away in the house and their wife will do it
for them better, cheaper, and with MUCH less energy use.
~~~~~
I'm sure you will get lots of comments from the above group, and I suggest
that you join it by sending the message "subscribe stoves" to
majordomo@crest.org.

Yours truly, TOM REED

In a message dated 2/28/99 6:11:10 AM Mountain Standard Time,
Andy@sarty.freeserve.co.uk writes:

<<
Dear Tom,
I have a problem i wonder if you may know the answer. As you knoow i am
testing charcoal, it's physiacal properties. lately i have been testing for
ignitabillity using a small canister with an interior mesh at the bottom
acing as a shelf (similar to barbeque), a weighed sample of charcoal is
placed on this mesh (100grms). Two thermal couples are placed one at the
level of charcoal and one at the top, distance usually associated with the
grill on a barbeque. The ignition source i am using is 5ml of Pentaine,
placed underneath and ignited. This 5ml will burn for exactly 1 minute,
enough to stimulate ignition and a sustainable combustion.
so far this test has worked very well, the object is to see how long my
different charcoals take to reach a cooking temperature, normally 15 minutes
is a reasonable time. The variatio in heat transference is notable, with
chiltern charcoal burning at a considerably higher temperature than all
others (upto 700 degrees). However, my dillema is how long should a
barbeque burn for and at what temperature is nominal for cooking. My test
runs for 30 mins, temperature readings being taken every 1 minute.
If you have any suggestions i would appreciate any help, other wise please
forward this text to any one who may know.
Cheers Andrew Sartain
>>

From english at adan.kingston.net Wed Mar 3 20:13:15 1999
From: english at adan.kingston.net (*.English)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:16 2004
Subject: Elsen's Pics.
Message-ID: <199903040113.UAA32339@adan.kingston.net>

Dear Stovers,
Check the Stoves webpage for pictures of Elsen's Charcoal
Briquetteing machine.

Alex

From english at adan.kingston.net Wed Mar 3 22:54:48 1999
From: english at adan.kingston.net (*.English)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:16 2004
Subject: (Fwd) Non-member submission
Message-ID: <199903040355.WAA21272@adan.kingston.net>

Dear Representative

We are exporters of hardwood charcoal in packaged form from various =
Asian and African sources.

The product is in briquette form using tapioca starch as a binder, or no =
external binder material. Caloric value is higher than propane or =
natural gas, with low ash.

We presently seek USA based importers and distributors of our product. =
Our capacity is 2,000 MT per month.

If this subject is not of direct interest, any assistance you can =
provide in passing this request on will be most appreciated.

Best Regards,

Richard Currey
rjcurre@ibm.net

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<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Dear Representative</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>We are exporters of hardwood =
charcoal in=20
packaged form from various Asian and African sources.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>The product is in briquette form =
using tapioca=20
starch as a binder, or no external binder material.  Caloric value =
is=20
higher than propane or natural gas, with low ash.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>We presently seek USA based =
importers and=20
distributors of our product.  Our capacity is 2,000 MT per=20
month.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>If this subject is not of direct =
interest, any=20
assistance you can provide in passing this request on will be most=20
appreciated.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
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<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Richard Currey</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><A=20
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From cree at dowco.com Thu Mar 4 10:08:45 1999
From: cree at dowco.com (John Olsen)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:16 2004
Subject: Heat values of crops, etc.?
Message-ID: <005901be6651$3747f780$2f5817cf@olsen>

Could anyone point me towards a web page which lists
the BTU's of ,
Sawdust , Corn husks, Rice Husks, Walnut shells,
Peanut shells, charcoal, etc.,
thankyou
John Olsen.

From elizabethb at itdg.org.uk Fri Mar 5 05:21:42 1999
From: elizabethb at itdg.org.uk (Elizabeth Bates)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:16 2004
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199903051021.FAA01948@solstice.crest.org>

Items for BP42

As an avid reader of the stoves digest, but an irregular contributor,
could I ask anyone who is interested in disseminating information,
of the sort described below, in the next Boiling Point to contact me
as soon as possible.

The journal Boiling Point is distributed to about 1500 addresses
worldwide, and looks at all aspects of household energy. We are
hoping to have a new section entitled 'Projects and Seminars' and a
revamped 'Reviews' section.

' Projects and Seminars'
Instead of a whole article on a particular piece of research, we are
hoping to tell everyone of projects; technical, social , financial or
environmental, that are happening at the moment in the field of
household energy. This is with a view to letting people talk to others
in the same field. If you'd like what you are doing disseminated,
please let me have a short precis of the project, and a contact name
and address (bearing in mind that not everyone has e-mail). Similarly
if there are seminars which are happening in the latter half of '99 or
early 2000, I will try to publicize them.

Reviews
We want to put in lots of shorter reviews. In this case, I would like
to receive the following details: Title of book or journal, Author or
organization name, Publisher, Number of pages, Place of publication ,
Cost .....and a very brief summary of what the book is about, and to
whom it is targetted.

>From my point of view, it would be very interesting to know the level
of interest from people reading these items. Especially for the
projects information, you could be inundated with replies. This kind
of exchange could also stop the wheel being reinvented in several
places at once , so please consider spending a few minutes sending me
details. Thank you
Elizabeth Bates
Email: elizabethb@itdg.org.uk
Intermediate Technology
Schumacher Centre for Technology and Development
Bourton Hall
Bourton-on-Dunsmore
Warwickshire
CV23 9QZ
Tel:+44-1788 661100
Fax:+44-1788 661101

Url: http://www.oneworld.org/itdg
Intl: http://www.itdg.org.pe
Company Reg No 871954, England
Charity No 247257

From kchishol at fox.nstn.ca Fri Mar 5 12:13:15 1999
From: kchishol at fox.nstn.ca (Kevin Chisholm)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:16 2004
Subject: Heat values of crops, etc.?
In-Reply-To: <005901be6651$3747f780$2f5817cf@olsen>
Message-ID: <36E0111B.4D42EDBA@fox.nstn.ca>

Dear John

You can't go too far wrong by assuming 8,600 BTU/Lb on a bone dry basis.
ADD some heat, if there are resins present, and remove some heat, if the
ash is excessive.

Kevin Chisholm

John Olsen wrote:

Could anyone
point me towards a web page which lists the BTU's of ,Sawdust
, Corn husks, Rice Husks, Walnut shells, Peanut shells, charcoal, etc.,thankyouJohn
Olsen.

From Alex.English at adan.kingston.net Thu Mar 11 20:40:38 1999
From: Alex.English at adan.kingston.net (*.english)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:16 2004
Subject: (Fwd) from Dan Cambell, EHP
Message-ID: <199903120141.UAA25645@adan.kingston.net>

Dear Colleagues:

The USAID sponsored Environmental Health Project has just published:

"Lowering Exposure of Children to Indoor Air Pollution to Prevent Acute
Respiratory Infections: The Need for Information and Action," by Dr Nigel
Bruce. EHP Capsule Report 3. January 1999. 10 pages.

This report provides an overview of the health impacts of indoor air
pollution
in developing countries and is available via the EHP web site in the "news"
section. The URL is: http://www.crosslink.net/~ehp

Anyone wishing to join the Acute Respiratory Infections Network can do so by
sending an email to: ARILIST@onelist.com

Regards,
Dan Campbell, EHP

From Alex.English at adan.kingston.net Thu Mar 11 20:40:40 1999
From: Alex.English at adan.kingston.net (*.english)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:16 2004
Subject: Fwd. Non-member submission from [
Message-ID: <199903120141.UAA25650@adan.kingston.net>

Dear Chris,
Perhaps another list member will know of a better link which covers
the fundamentals of wood combustion. You might try
http://mha-net.clever.net/html/p-tieg02.htm

Alex
Hello--

Perhaps you can help me out. I've been surfing the internet, trying to find
info on the following:

I want to know, or to attempt to reconstruct, something about the way
ancient lighthouses were run. I.e., lighthouses that were basically towers
with bonfires on top of them, and produced light by the consumption of
biomass. Clearly, a person running such a lighthouse would be an expert in
what sorts of wood burn for longer, better and with less smoke. I would
imagine that understanding "wood burning" in this way must be quite a
detailed science, or at least must have been at one time. Obviously,
something that is dry burns better than something that is wet, but I'm quite
sure there's a lot more to it than that...probably oak burns better than
maple, which in turn burns better than chestnut....or something along those
lines...

Anyway, I'm trying to find someone who can help me get a grasp of the
fundamentals of wood burning, or point me to a relevant source. The
discussion group on the internet at
http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/stoves-list-archive/ has been the most
promising lead I have found thus far.

Thank you for whatever help you can offer me. In case you're wondering,
this is research for a work of fiction I'm currently working on.

Thanks,

Chris Mooney
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Chris Mooney
Yale University '99
P.O. Box 204315
New Haven, CT 06520
P: (203) 436-1725
F: (203) 436-1725
chris.mooney@yale.edu

From costaeec at kcnet.com Mon Mar 15 22:56:33 1999
From: costaeec at kcnet.com (Jim Dunham)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:16 2004
Subject: Update- Carbonising Sawdust.
Message-ID: <000601be6f67$0ba17d80$fd64f0d1@default>

Very true Tom.

BUT...whereas processing and briquetting or pelletizing (densifying) biomass
materials does indeed require one-time additional capital, it usually
results in lower labor and maintenance costs, which are ongoing, and a far
more acceptable fuel product.

Compare to coal. It can be burned in big, dirty chunks, straight from the
ground, but is normally processed into clean, pulverized, uniform particles,
which can be totally automated regarding handling, storage, stoking, and
control.

If we want to minimize investments, consider elliminating oil refineries.
Crude oil could be burned, but it would put a rather severe kink in the
family automobile operation. A simple trip to the grocer could require an
engineering and operating staff and major emission fines. Simpler to invest
more up front and refine the crude before trying to burn it.

Same with biomass. When you try to use it in crude form, massive resistence
develops. It is usually based on the costs and hassle of handling, storing,
transporting, feeding, and filth. Once densified, it can be totally
automated and used at a much lower cost than in raw form.

Do it right in the first place (invest what is required--don't be cheap) and
the results are vastly more profitable.

-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Reed <REEDTB@compuserve.com>
To: Jim Dunham <costaeec@kcnet.com>; Karsted, Elsen L. <elk@net2000ke.com>;
STOVES <stoves@crest.org>; GASIFICATION <gasification@crest.org>
Date: Tuesday, February 23, 1999 8:24 AM
Subject: Re: Update- Carbonising Sawdust.

>Dear ELK and Jim:
>
>Briquetting the sawdust makes a cleanburning fuel with 3 times the energy
>of the original sawdust. Unfortunately it requires capitalization of
>several hundred thousand $. Such plants are BEGINNING to appear in the
>U.S., Canada and Europe. I can buy 1/4" sawdust pellets in many of my
>hardware stores for $2.50 - $3 for a 40 lb plastic bag - and I do for my
>gasifier experiments. We can buy 3/8"peanut hull pellets from Birdsong
>Peanuts in Georgia for $40/ton. Great fuels.
>
>We have occasionally used a "STONE GRATE". Put appropriate size stones on
>top of your metal grate that will pass the necessary air. Limestone breaks
>down, but maintains size.
>
>Alternatively, a higher heat loss at the grate would help. Try a pool of
>water underneath.
>
>I'd love to see your operation. How do I get myself there?
>
>Your pal,
>TOM REED
>
>
>
>
>
>Thomas B. Reed: The Biomass Energy Foundation
>1810 Smith Rd., Golden, CO 80401
>303 278 0558V; 303 278 0560F
>E-mail: reedtb@compuserve.com
>

From larcon at sni.net Tue Mar 16 13:28:37 1999
From: larcon at sni.net (Ronal W. Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:16 2004
Subject: Andy Sartain on ignitability
Message-ID: <v01540b20b3144319e90d@[204.131.233.23]>

Andy - This is to comment on Tom Reed's and your letters on charcoal testing.
Ron

>From Tom Reed:
>Dear Andy:
>
>I am forwarding your request to the group "STOVES@CREST.ORG". While they are
>supposed to be interested primarily in cooking, they are equally interested in
>charcoal production and performance.
>
>As I said before, the "ignition temperature" of charcoal depends on so many
>things that I doubt if you can generate any meaningful numbers. On the other
>hand, the heat transfer from the different charcoals can be measured very
>meaningfully by heating water, simulating realworld cooking. We would all
>love to hear your results for such tests on different charcoals.

I think that your ignitability experiments will be very helpful for
those trying to create better charcoaling products - both the fuel and the
required stove. The energy content should always be near 30 MJ/kg - after
one accounts for added binders. My presumption is that the binders, the
means and temperature of production (the retained gases) and porosity will
be the major contributors to ignitability. What other variables are you
looking at?

I remember Paul Hait telling about a religious pure-carbon product
that could be top lit with a match, because of the way that it had been
fabricated. He has also reported on added easy-lighting ingredients. Have
you seen such? More comments from Paul? These ignitability attrributes
might give important clues on achieving easier ignitability.

>
>Personally, I feel that in the long run charcoal cooking is about the most
>wasteful use of biomass you can imagine, since you have lost >60% of the
>energy in the biomass in making the charcoal. I much prefer WOOD-GAS stoves
>where the easily released volatiles do the initial heating/cooking and the
>slower burning charcoal then maintains heat at a lower level.

What Tom calls a "WOOD-GAS" stove and what I call a "charcoal-making
stove" (CMS) can be used to manufacture charcoal with little energy loss.
I do not see much desirability in burning the charcoal immediately in the
same stove. No CMS is an efficient combustor of charcoal and it does not
solve the present problem of making charcoal badly. Also, persons like
Elsen Karstad are promoting the conversion of waste products like sawdust
to charcoal since there is considerable waste already as the sawdust rots
away. Of course, because charcoal is a fuel preferred by cooks and because
charcoal-making is generally badly done is why there has been such interest
on this list in aharcoal-making and the CSM.

>
>But, since we live in a world of waste and charcoal cooking, it is useful to
>categorize the relative performance of different charcoals and I wish you
>success in your task.
>
>Incidentally, I hope barbecue enthusiasts can tell me why barbecuing is so
>popular, especially with propane on $200 grills when most barbecuers have a
>nice clean oven with fan 50 feet away in the house and their wife will do it
>for them better, cheaper, and with MUCH less energy use.
>
>~~~~~
>I'm sure you will get lots of comments from the above group, and I suggest
>that you join it by sending the message "subscribe stoves" to
>majordomo@crest.org.
>
>Yours truly,
>
>TOM REED
>
>In a message dated 2/28/99 6:11:10 AM Mountain Standard Time,
>Andy@sarty.freeserve.co.uk writes:
>
><<
> Dear Tom,
> I have a problem i wonder if you may know the answer. As you know i am
> testing charcoal, it's physical properties. lately i have been testing for
> ignitability using a small canister with an interior mesh at the bottom
> acing as a shelf (similar to barbeque), a weighed sample of charcoal is
> placed on this mesh (100grms).

I am interested in your word "small". I think you will find much
more rapid ignitability as the height of the "small canister" is increased.
I urge reporting on results for at least two heights - with different
natural air flows.

If you have not yet gotten hold of Paul Hait, be sure to do so. I
think Paul will argue that you should ignite between two charcoal
briquettes, which can radiate into each other - especially in a vertical
orientation with better air flow. Paul makes a great point on his "array"
concept, so bottom lighting may not be the best test.

>Two thermal couples are placed one at the
> level of charcoal and one at the top, distance usually associated with the
> grill on a barbeque. The ignition source i am using is 5ml of Pentaine,
> placed underneath and ignited. This 5ml will burn for exactly 1 minute,
> enough to stimulate ignition and a sustainable combustion.
> so far this test has worked very well, the object is to see how long my
> different charcoals take to reach a cooking temperature, normally 15 minutes
> is a reasonable time.

I don't know Pentaine. Can you describe it (or is it pentane?)
Another favorite way of lighting charcoal here in the US is via an electric
resistance heater. You might explore this an alternative that would allow
some preferential geometries and should be easily modified with various
types of resistive heaters..

>The variation in heat transference is notable, with
> chiltern charcoal burning at a considerably higher temperature than all
> others (upto 700 degrees).

Could you explain the word "chiltern" ? - not one of my words.
To what do you attribute this temperature difference (and what are
your low "burning" temperatures)?
Could this difference be due to gases still retained within the
charcoal? I remember hearing that cooks like this "gassy" feature - for
more easy lighting.

> However, my dillema is how long should a
> barbeque burn for and at what temperature is nominal for cooking. My test
> runs for 30 mins, temperature readings being taken every 1 minute.
> If you have any suggestions i would appreciate any help, other wise please
> forward this text to any one who may know.
> Cheers Andrew Sartain
> >>

I think you will have to report on both energy and power outputs
and let others determine how much charcoal they will need for their
particular mode of cooking - which may be for a family of 2 or in a
restaurant for dozens of people.

A good starting power number for much rural cooking is around 1 to
2 kW. At a charcoal stove efficiency of 20% to 50% you will need an input
power of 2 kW up to 10 kW. Energy numbers are probably to be derived using
cook times of 1/2 to 2 hours.

Using a charcoal heating value of 30 MJ/kg, 1 joule = 1 watt-second
and 3600 seconds per hour, will give you the necessary range of charcoal
weights (kg) and consumption (kg/hr). I predict you will find a much
greater difference between stoves than between charcoals, so be sure you
test a range of stoves. Paul Hait's may be the most efficient you will
find, but will probably require the use of briquettes.

It will be very helpful if you also can report on one of the
principal concerns raised on this list about charcoal use - that of CO
production. We have heard of some fairly low cost digital CO monitors that
might fit your need.

Good luck. Ron

Ronal W. Larson, PhD
21547 Mountsfield Dr.
Golden, CO 80401, USA
303/526-9629; FAX same with warning
larcon@sni.net

From larcon at sni.net Tue Mar 16 13:29:27 1999
From: larcon at sni.net (Ronal W. Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:16 2004
Subject: Return and Thanks
Message-ID: <v01540b00b3140294c031@[204.131.233.23]>

Alex (cc to stoves): I'm back. Good trip with about a week spent with
Rogerio Miranda - which I will report on to the full "stoves" group soon.

Unless you feel you will have withdrawal symptoms, I will again
take over the detailed "list-coordinator" responses. I will BCC you for
awhile so you know I am doing my job.

I haven't gotten through much of the big backlog yet, but it looks
like you did a great job. Thanks very much.

Anything I should worry about now?

Rogerio - Thanks greatly from both Gretchen and myself for your wonderful
hospitality! The trip back went smoothly.

Ron

Ronal W. Larson, PhD
21547 Mountsfield Dr.
Golden, CO 80401, USA
303/526-9629; FAX same with warning
larcon@sni.net

From larcon at sni.net Wed Mar 17 01:19:11 1999
From: larcon at sni.net (Ronal W. Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:16 2004
Subject: Forwarded: Tom Reed on charcoal energy density
Message-ID: <v01540b02b314f6110fb5@[204.131.233.9]>

(Stovers: Tom Reed wrote - using Reedtb2@cs.com - the following to the list)

>Stovers:
>
>In a message dated 3/16/99 11:37:09 AM Mountain Standard Time, larcon@sni.net
>writes:
>
><<
> Using a charcoal heating value of 30 MJ/kg, 1 joule = 1 watt-second
> and 3600 seconds per hour, will give you the necessary range of charcoal
> weights (kg) and consumption (kg/hr). I predict you will find a much
> greater difference between stoves than between charcoals, so be sure you
> test a range of stoves. Paul Hait's may be the most efficient you will
> find, but will probably require the use of briquettes.
>
> >>
>In our book "Thermal Data for ... Fuels", p. 240,we list heating values for a
>number of charcoals reported in the literature. They range from 23.05 kJ/g
>for Oak charcoal, roasted at 565 C, to "Charcoal", no temp mentioned, 34.39.
>(Wood is typically 18, 10% moisture). My JANAF tables list PURE carbon as
>32.80, so I presume the "Charcoal" entry is spurious. The heat of combustion
>of "charcoal" increases monotonically with the temperature of preparation. I
>doubt if any of the "charcoal making stoves" exceed 600 C, and most charcoal
>is made at 400-500C, so I fear Ron's number of 30 kJ/g is 25% high.
>
>It would be useful in future reports and tests here at STOVES to have analyses
>of specific charcoals (proximate, ultimate and HHV, cost about $100).
>Otherwise, we should all be aware that the word "charcoal" covers as many
>variables as "coal".
>
>Wishing you all well,
>TOM REED
>

Ronal W. Larson, PhD
21547 Mountsfield Dr.
Golden, CO 80401, USA
303/526-9629; FAX same with warning
larcon@sni.net

From larcon at sni.net Sat Mar 20 00:58:27 1999
From: larcon at sni.net (Ronal W. Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:16 2004
Subject: Upcoming messages re Nicaragua
Message-ID: <v01540b00b318b845a302@[204.131.233.48]>

Stovers:
This is to start a series of stove-related e-mails following my
recent trip to visit Rogerio Miranda in Nicaragua. These are intended to
follow directly only from observations about stoves seen in Nicaragua,
mostly around Managua. No attempt this time to push charcoal-making
stoves.

These upcoming e-mails will mostly contain questions for the list -
needing your expert opinions. In order to simplify much-hoped-for dialog
on these topics, I shall send them with only one topic each - and I shall
try to keep each short. The main purpose of this dialog is to assist
Rogerio and Nicaragua - but I think most of the topics have world-wide
applicability.

The upcoming roughly-one-a-day topics will be (stated now to force me to do
it before I leave again on April 4 for four weeks in Kafa, Ehthiopia - Alex
please take note):

My tentative schedule is:

1. Rogerio
2. Prolena
3. efficiency measurementss
4. pollution measurements
5. chimney valves
6. height reduction under pot #2
7. plancha issues
8. volcanic material
9. hood
10. series vs parallel
11. rocket stove * 2 with blocks
12. charcoal-making stove ideas
13. ?? (so I can add topics I haven't thought through yet)

Another purpose of listing is get experts in each area to start to
get ready - I will make no pronouncements on any topic - only to offer some
questions. To the best of my knowledge, none of these topics have had
prior discussion times on our list (or at least I have forgotten it)

Let me end this first introductory note with a few non-stove topics.

A. First a bit about Nicaragua. For this hemisphere, Nicaragua is
behind only Haiti in various poverty indices. But it is not a bad looking
place at all. In comparison with various African countries I have recently
been, Nicaragua is pretty advanced. It is the largest of the Central
American countries (Mexico being excluded as being part of North America?)
and has a relatively low population density. It is being deforested, but
there are still good forests, reforestation is occurring, and much of the
country get pretty good annual rainfall. (Much more in the more
mountainous less-populated Atlantic side.) We visited during their lengthy
Pacific-side dry season, but had several good rains during our two-week
stay.

Many roads were paved and almost all were in very good shape. I
think very few Nicaraguans, even the poorest) are without electricity.
Most buildings are of stone and brick - but in poorer rural areas, many
were made of wood. This is not too big a problem in a quite moderate
temperature regime. Nicaragua is called the land of lakes and volcanos and
there are plenty of both throughout - some being of world record size. I
drank the local Managuan water and never got sick (Water supply courtesy of
the Japanese.)

The present national government is perhaps middle of the road, but
there are liberal remnants of the Sandinista government still around in
different parts of the country. The conservative party has only a few
members now elected to parliament. There is a continuing comparison of the
present reduced spending on health and education with the former larger
social efforts under the Sandinistas. I heard much complaint (not from
Rogerio) about the government, but also heard from many (not from Rogerio -
as we did litle talking about politics while in his houe)that there has
been considerable improvement. The problems are of course compounded by a
very high unemployment rate.

We stayed one day in Grenada - the oldest city in this hemisphere -
founded in the 1530's and already sacked several times (although well
inland) by pirates in the 1600s. A very nice clean city.

There was much talk about crime, but we experienced none and always
felt safe. Nicaragua is an interesting and friendly country that is cheap
to visit (we stayed the first four days in a friendly, clean-enough hotel
for $5.00 per day and you can great meals for $1.50 - about C$ 16 [$1.00 =
11.35 c$, where C$ = Cordovas]). English is not widely spoken, but
Nicaraguans are forgiving and we got by pretty well with a dictionary (
but I have mad a self-promise to go to language school).

In sum - we enjoyed Nicaragua and hope to go back some day. I urge
other stovers to visit.

B. About Hurricane Mitch: The problems in Nicaragua were not as bad as in
the neighbring country of Honduras (reported by list member John Gulland
not too long ago), but the Nicaraguan problems were/are still horrendous.
President Clinton was there at our half-way point so many of you will have
seen pictures of the place he visited where several thousands were killed
when the side of a (dormant) volcano gave way. In the small city of
Esteli, where we stayed four days, there were many signs of the destruction
from the huge rain that fell (more in a week than in most years). A bridge
washout and creation of a new streambed several hundred feet wide showed
how serious the problems were at even this city - some distance away from
the worst sites.

There has been a pretty good world turnout to help. Our planes in
both directions were mostly filled with Americans and Canadians who had
come down to help. There is a large group of former Peace Corps volunteers
working there regularly. We saw several groups of college students there
for study tours - usually with a rebuilding component thrown in (we did a
bit of that ourselves before hooking up with Rogerio)

There are now several new cities of refugees from the hurricane -
with some people still living under plastic tarps four months after Mitch.
The Mangua mayor has taken the opportunity to redevelop the shoreline of
Lake Managua. The outskirt houses that are going up to help these
penniless and mostly jobless refugees are quite small, and there are many
refugees still not being helped. But there is improvement (such as finally
bringing in piped water in one place while we there).

In sum, Mitch was a huge problem that has not yet been overcome.
Nicaragua can still use a great deal of financial and volunteer help.

C. Last is to report a bit on what we did during the whole first week - to
learn about the growing movement to pressure lenders to consider debt
relief. I can supply more concrete detail to anyone interested, but
believe that Nicaragua has one of the worst debt problems in the world.
They owe various donors (mostly bilateral) about $6 billion - when their
exports are measure in hundreds of millions per year - not enough to even
cover the interest (which is mostly going to the multilateral lenders).
They can't declare bankruptcy, and so are following a program called
"Structural Adjustment" which is supposed to get them out of trouble in a
few more years.

Meanwhile, education and health expenditures have been cut to being
together about 25% of the national budget. The poorest are hurting the
most with this national budget that is dictated motly by their debt.

Our group of 19 was hosted by a permanent group in Managua called
Witness for Peace - started a long time ago to try to stop the horrific
fighting between the Sandanistas and the Contras. WFP was working on this
trip with another worldwide group called Jubilee 2000 (started in the UK)
to promote debt relief (WFP has several other issues for Nicaragua such as
fair pay for workers). The Jubilee 2000 name is taken from an ancient
Judaic tradition of forgiving all debts every 50 years.

My conclusion from this trip is that much of Nicaragua's debt
should indeed now be relieved. In the last several years, donors have
already halved the Nicaraguan debt. This has accelerated because of Mitch.
However, in most forgiven loans, the payments have already repaid the
original loan several times.

Great suffering is now occurring amongst the poorest as structural
adjustment occurs. For instance there is a mandated (by the donors) 1%
change in the exchange rate every month - and no increase in wage rates.
Similarly water and electricity rates are increasing by 1.5% per month.
Buying power of the poor doesn't get worse by 12% per year, but it sure is
decreasing.

Summary: I am going to put more of my time into trying to convince
the US government to do more on debt relief. (The US total is about 1% of
the total and may be going to zero this year - but the US has a lot of sway
with multi-lateral donors and we can do more than we are.) I hope other
list members from donor countries will also put some pressure on their
governments.

I'd also like to hear from others from both donor and debtor
countries on what they hear is going on in their own countries on debt
relief - and on whether you agree with my conclusion. Because of its
"jubilee time frame", the year 2000 could be a great time to make a big
change in the lives of the poor in countries where most simple stove users
reside. If more funds from those countries were available for spending on
social problems, I believe we would see appreciably faster progress in
making stove improvements.

Sorry for this lengthy non-stove narrative, but I offer them to
justify your future extra efforts to help Rogerio and Prolena - the
subjects of my next messages.

Ron

Ronal W. Larson, PhD
21547 Mountsfield Dr.
Golden, CO 80401, USA
303/526-9629; FAX same with warning
larcon@sni.net

From larcon at sni.net Sat Mar 20 20:04:55 1999
From: larcon at sni.net (Ronal W. Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:17 2004
Subject: Topic 1 - some notes about Rogerio Miranda
Message-ID: <v01540b01b318d350fdae@[204.131.233.48]>

Stovers:

This note is to give you a little more information about Rogerio
Miranda - the Spanish-speaking stove researcher from whom we hear the most
on this list.
I was only a little surprised at meeting this "virtual" friend - known
previously only from e-mail. I should first assure you that Rogerio is
real - mnot virtual. Adjectives that come to mind are: bright,
hardworking, motivated, friendly, knowledgeable, helpful, happy, etc. I
saw nothing negative to report.

1. We didn't talk about age, but I guess at about 35-40.
2. Spanish is a third language. Rogerio is really
Portugues-speaking Brazilian. Apparently the native Central Americans
think he is from Europe as he is fairly light skinned and his accent isn't
obvious. His heritage is largely (not entirely) Portuguese - but from
within Brazil for centuries, I think.
3. Rogerio is married to an American PhD forester (Margaret) who
is employed by USAID in forestry and conservation areas.
4. They met in Brazil because of their common forestry interests -
Rogerio has a masters, also in Forestry. English was learned in the US -
before Spnish, I think. His English is excellent. Of course there are a
lot of similarities between Spanish and Portuguese.
5. Their home in Managua is lovely - with plants all around that
reflect their backgrounds. Unfortunately, Margaret was around the house
only a little as she was getting ready for the Clinton visit (both shook
his hand) and then for a vacation back to her South Carolina roots.
(Rogerio - Please thank Margaret again.)
6. Rogerio is working full time to make a success out of Prolena
(the next note topic) - an NGO he founded first in Honduras. This is where
Margaret had her first USAID assignment until about a year ago. This is
one reason that John Gulland went to Honduras, rather than Nicaragua.
7. Rogerio was a wonderful host - just the right combination of
helping and letting us struggle alone. (Rogerio - Thank you again. We just
got our photos and will send as we get back the slides.)
8. Rogerio is from the Diras Gervais "state" within Brazil -
specifically, from Brazil's third largest (and apparently best) city -
Belle Horizonte. He has made all three geographic entities sound so great
that we are ready to go, with a side trip to the next carnival in Rio.

Hope you now know Rogerio a little better. I hope I have made him
appear as a good leader and potential fundee for sponsors who may be
listening in. That was my intent. I recommend him highly as a stoves
research and implementation leader. More on his Prolena group in Note #2.

Any questions?

Rogerio - on what did I screw up?

Ron

Ronal W. Larson, PhD
21547 Mountsfield Dr.
Golden, CO 80401, USA
303/526-9629; FAX same with warning
larcon@sni.net

From larcon at sni.net Sat Mar 20 20:04:57 1999
From: larcon at sni.net (Ronal W. Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:17 2004
Subject: Topic 2 - some notes about Prolena
Message-ID: <v01540b02b318da54a3a5@[204.131.233.48]>

Stovers:

This second note is to give you a little more information about
Rogerio Miranda's brainchild - Prolena.

1. "Lena" is the Spanish word for "wood"
2. Prolena has one small room in a nice downtown Managua
residential house, getting the smallest part of a shared arrangement with
an internet company and the Irish development group. This room is now too
small for the Prolena staff (of 2 or 3?) with some thought of moving when
they have to add the next staffer.
3. They are pretty well equipped with computer, fax/copier, small
conference table, bookcase, etc - but not enough room for Rogerio to also
be there much. Rogerio gets more done by mostly working at home, where
that office is also well equipped.
4. The Prolena president is a native Nicaraguan (Leonardo) who is
a professor (not sure of that?) (Electrical Engineer), who is also the
local counterpart for a very impresive Austrian biomass project (that is
not working on stoves). I have mentioned this group as doing coppicing of
Moringa and hope to say more later.
5. Various types of funding is beginning to come in for Prolena.
Rogerio and I worked together for a few days on a new project funded by the
Nicaraguan Department of Energy to do a baseline survey of existing
traditional stoves along with some improved stoves. I will eventually send
some photos to Alex after they are developed that will show the stoves
there (and Rogerio), but Rogerio has some already on Alex' web site that
show similar work in Honduras.
6, While I was there, Rogerio seemed to be getting a good response
from a major international donor group to whom he had sent a Prolena
proposal. Rogerio looks to be very good as a proposal writer.
7. Rogerio is the vice-president of Prolena. Although the founder
and working full time, Rogerio is getting ready for the next move as he and
Margaret will have to move to another USAID assignment in a few years.

Stovers: Any questions?

Rogerio - this time you must comment about Prolena - I know I have
left out a lot.

Ron

Ronal W. Larson, PhD
21547 Mountsfield Dr.
Golden, CO 80401, USA
303/526-9629; FAX same with warning
larcon@sni.net

From larcon at sni.net Sat Mar 20 20:06:58 1999
From: larcon at sni.net (Ronal W. Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:17 2004
Subject: Introduction of Ray Wijewardene - new "stoves" member
Message-ID: <v01540b06b319b1b1922c@[204.131.233.40]>

(Stovers: Following receipt of a notice of Ray Wijewardene's joining our
list, I asked Ray to send an introduction. I asked a few questions whose
answers are also in the following. I also insert a few answers to
questions that Ray asks.

Ray: Because you are now a list member, you can simply hereafter address
all list messages to "stoves@crest.org".

End my intro. Ron)

I am extremely grateful for the privilege of being included in the stoves
mailing list and thank you ever so much. Please let me know how I may pay
for the privilege of the subscription.

(Larson insert 1: There is no requirement to pay. Contributions
are appreciated by the crest sponsors and larger contributions are
acknowledged on the "stoves" part of the "crest" web page. Some
instructions are given there. Anyone feeling so inclined and wanting more
guidance can write me. End Larson 1)

I have also heard from Ronal Larson and am ever so grateful for the line
of contact with him. I am an extremely keen researcher in the area of
biomass energy and towards encouraging the GROWING of (coppicing) trees for
fuel-wood in the tropical countries. I am very keen to send you a copy of
one of my more recent papers on this as it explains how we are thinking and
the rationale behind a big program we have for establishing trials
throughout the agro-ecological regions of our country to ascertain all the
coppicing (and hopefully N-fixing) trees suited to each region. I felt that
so much effort has been wasted on just enthusiasm and 'romance' about the
importance of trees, when the real way to make a substantial step forward
is to make the GROWING of trees PROFITABLE.... and the technology of
coppicing trees (where the tree is never chopped down but only the
coppicing branches are lopped regularly and used for fuel-wood).

(Larson insert 2. Yes I would like a copy of that paper and I hope
you will tell us all more about your economics. To make your life easier
if you get lots of requests, you can send the paper to Alex English who
runs a web site with similar material at
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html.
He can also be contacted first at <english@adan.kingston.net>

I saw some fantastic coppicing R&D also at the University of
Managua. This was with mostly the Moringa (sp?) tree - from Southern India
and possibly Sri Lanka. Pieces that would be just right for a
charcoal-making stove (straight and 2-3 cm diameter) were available
approximately every 30-40 days. The claim was that the growth was
approximately 10 tmies that of sugar cane. More later on this. End Larson
2)

My enthusiasm for the wood-gas stove comes from this endeavour. (p.s. I
shall surely make it to the Pune conference next year. Please keep me
advised.. I expect it will be at the centre of my friend Dr. Advashi - I
dont think I've got that quite right... but I know whom you mean... He is
brilliant as also his father-in-law).

(Larson insert 3: In recent off-list communications with Dr.
Karve, I have learned that she will be sending more conference information
soon to the full list. Therefore I will say no more now.
I am not sure if hers is the same center as for Dr. Advashi, but I
will be there for sure and look forward to meeting you both then. Perhaps
we can come to see your own work in Sri Lanka, at the same time - since we
will be "next door>". End Larson 3.)

I am not too sure I am all that enthusiastic about just making charcoal
(knowing well the ~60% energy losses enroute) but am very keen about making
stoves which can pyrolise wood-fuel and utilising the gas therefrom for
domestic cooking.

(Larson insert 4. I agree. My main interest is in further
developing cook-stoves that can substitute for the normal inefficient
production of charcoal. This is why I prefer the name "charcoal-making
stoves". Fortunately these seem to also have many other advantages
including being clean burning and efficient. Much work remains to be done.
End Larson 4)

I have before me some sketches (inadequate, alas, for making a prototype
off) of a paper by TBReed and Ronal Larson from Golden CO, titled "A
wood-gas stove for developing countries' which appeared in the July 1996
issue of Energy for Sustainable Development (a copy just reached me!!...
we're 'underdeveloped' see?) and this excites me as I wish to make a
prototype for trial here with our coppiced-fuel-wood. Is there some way I
may send to Mr Larson a request for updated (since 1996) drawings of this
stove so I may go ahead promptly. For example as to my 'puzzlement'... what
is a 'gas wick'? I would most deeply appreciate drawings from which I may
make that stove - and the 'wick' .

(Larson insert 5.
1. See several other contributions on this topic appear on the
English "stoves" web page/
2. I will also send my several early reports on this topic that
appeared on the bioenergy list more than three years ago - before there was
a "stoves" list.
3. I will be saying a few more things about the CMS tests we tried
in Nicaragua in about a week. I had a few new ideas that worked OK.
4. I think it best not to work from drawings - just use local
scrap materials that can make it look somethng like a local stove and a few
basic concepts: vertically-stacked, well-dried wood, top lighting, enough
chimney (about 150% of the diameter), and some way to control the primary
air flow. But feel free to ask further clarifying questions.
5. Let us know how it worked. Dousing the hot charcoal when you
are done needs some new ideas.
6. The word "wick" is not my favorite - just a tin can inside that
can get hot.
End insert 5)

One of our other endeavours to promote wood-fuel is for the decentralised
generation of electricity using the wood-fuelled FPSE
(Free-Piston-Stirling-Engine) as from Sunpower Inc... a prototype of which
will be coming here soon (hopefully). This generator uses pyrolised
wood-fuel in a very neat burner (I believe the WOODMIZER people have been
involved with this aspect of it).

(Larson Insert 6. When you say you use "pyrolised wood-fuel", do
you mean the FPSE is designed to work with charcoal? I would think the CMS
could work as well instead and produce charcoal. Please keep us informed on
how this works and the economics.
We also have had a few comments on this list about using
thermoelectricity. Maybe more later on this topic as it is time to check
in on the developers of this possible new option. End insert 6.)

Perhaps the waste heat from the burner could be used to heat hot-plates in
a domestic cooker... like the earlier AGA cooker?.

(Larson insert 7. This is not clear. Certainly, the hot combusted
pyrolysis gases can be used in many ways - hot plates or cook pots. Can
you describe the term "AGA"? End insert 7)

It's a privilege to have joined your group....

Ray Wijewardene
address: 133 Dharmapala Mawatha, Colombo 07, SRI LANKA.
Tel and fax +94-1-421881... email: raywije@eureka.lk

(Insert 8: On behalf of the full list, it is our privilege to have you
join us. Please keep further information and questions coming. Ron)

From larcon at sni.net Sat Mar 20 20:07:27 1999
From: larcon at sni.net (Ronal W. Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:17 2004
Subject: Ray W intro. cont'd
Message-ID: <v01540b07b319eff031f8@[204.131.233.40]>

Stovers: This came in as I was sending the previous message, so this is a
quick add-on

>Greetings Dr. Larson. And welcome back from Nicaragua. That country has the
>same latitude as ours (Sri-Lanka) as you might have gathered from my GPS
>address. (N.06'54.76" E.79'51.57") But they have fertile volcanic soils
>whereas ours are older and more eroded.... but we are blessed never to have
>experienced hurricanes or eruptions!

Thanks for this. More over the next week. There will be several
opportunities this week to discuss volcanic material and I will welcome
some further discussion of this topic.

>I had responded to <stoves@crest.iorg> on he 11th Mar and 12th Mar
>(E.Karstad) and again to <owner-stoves@crest.org> on the 18th Mar.. in the
>latter I also mentioned how interested we were in a stove design published
>by (TDReed and) you in July 1996 (Energy for Sustainable Development) and of
>our keen interest to make one but needing further details, and also an
>update on your design. Our interest is not so much in charcoal but more in a
>practical design of wood-gas stove.

Ray: This is a different issue that again I ask you to raise
later. Is there any use of charcoal in SR? If so, the user of the CMS can
almost have free fuel as she sells the charcoal co-product.

There is a problem in using the charcoal co-product directly in the
CMS as it will be using air mostly from the bottom, using the lower,
originally primary air holes for all of the air supply. The long distance
from the charcoal to the cookpot makes this efficiency lower than if used
in the usual charcoal sing cooker, where the ot typically sits directly on
the glowing charcoal. I think it better to to switch the charcoal to a
more efficient charcoal burner, which is much closer to the cookpot.

>I had described our endeavours over many sites throughou SL. to popularise
>the GROWING of (coppicing) fuel-wood species and making it soundly
>profitable thus to increase our tree-cover. The stove design we needed was
>to complement the production of coppiced wood (sticks about 25-30 mm diam
>and about 100mm long) in a cooking system which would cook on the wood-gas
>(actually we were not too particular about the production of charcoal...
>just the gasses on which to cook)

Ray: In my forthcoming note # 12, I will report on a design that
used exactly these fuel dimensions. I think these should last about 1/2
hour and give a power dependent on the diameter. You should be able to
achieve a turndown ratio (max power to min power ratio) of about 3 by
varying the primary air supply. However, if charcoal is not desired, I
think there are better stove possibilities.

<snip>
RAY WIJEWARDENE ...Sri-Lanka.

Sorry for the delay that necessitated your second message, but it allowed
me to get in a few more ideas. Ron

From larcon at sni.net Sat Mar 20 20:11:27 1999
From: larcon at sni.net (Ronal W. Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:17 2004
Subject: Ted Keller on Nicaragua (and more on adobe stoves)
Message-ID: <v01540b00b319f9445e2a@[204.131.233.26]>

(Stovers: This just in. I will respond later to a few points on Ted's
stove much like that seen in Nicaragua, I think. The rest from Ted Keller.
Ron)

Sure go ahead and Run it on the list. We communicated with each other when
I was in Quetzaltenango last year. I was there putting in stoves. The
Indians build the adobe base to their heigth and then they put on top of
this a metal top with about 4 holes with different size rings. The stove
top is 18" x 37" x 3/16" thick. This next year I will put in a 3 7/8" hole
in the back of the top so we don't have to use a brick or block at the back
to catch the smoke. We also use a metal door with an air breather and a
chimney damper. It is not the most efficient stove but they like it as
they can put all their tortillas on top to cook them. The area around Xela
is about 7,600 feet to about 8,600 feet and the Indians live very primative
lives as they have for centuries, much different than Nicaragua. I
participated in a debate with Indian community leader in Quetzaltengo in
Spanish and my point was that since they have 22 different languages that
are used in Guatemala that they should all learn Spanish and not just their
native language, so that they could participate more in the political and
economic life of the country. About half agreeded with me and the other
half took the point of view that they wanted to continue with the way they
are so that they don't become materialistic like the spanish speaking
people have and they wanted to continue with their own language, so as you
can see they will probably continue the way they have for 100's of years
more if no one bothers them too much. I feel they are going down a dead
end street with no future but maybe I'm looking at the problem from a
materialistic viewpoint and not a spiritual viewpoint as they claim they
view things. Glad you enjoyed Nicaragua. I once owned a fishing camp
there on the San Juan River and still own ground there. I also used to own
a sawmill there on the east coast. Got to run now Ron I have 6 Mexican
exchange students that live at our home and they are pushing me to take
them to an art show. TED
At 01:55 PM 03/20/1999 -0600, you wrote:
>Ted - Thanks for the note. Can I send this on to the full list? So few of
>our list readers will be going to Nicaragua, that your comments could help
>Rogerio.
>
>What is your connection with stoves? I apologize if I should know. Ron
>
>>Hi Ron, I read with interest your message about your visit to Nicaragua. I
>>was there on June 16th to 24th on a Rotary mission from our district to
>>help those in need. I didn't get a chance to visit Rogerio as well as I
>>didn't have time to visit all my nephews and nieces from my wife's side but
>>what I saw was shocking.
>>We fed about 100 families for a week giving them rice, beans and cooking
>>oil. We gave funds for 3 homes, 4 year long scholarships including
>>clothes, transportation, shoes, and a year's schooling in a trade school.
>>We gave funds for a children's hospital for beds and medicine for eyes.
>>For a one week whirlwind trip I think we did a lot.
>>My daughter just returned from there and she and another lady obtained over
>>$250,000 worth of supplies to send there that were used in Leon and
>>Chinandega. Many supplies are still waiting for shipment from the United
>>States to Nicaragua.
>>Poverty is certainly rampant there. I am 71 years old and I use to go
>>there every year.
>>I will leave for Guatemala at the end of May to put in stoves around Xela.
>>I will drive to Queretero, Mx in July for a month stay just for a vacation.
>>I hope you are able to obtain funds for Nicaragua as they sure need it.
>>Some farmer friends of mine around Leon lost $200,000 to $300,000 because
>>of Hurricane Mitch.
>>If anyone wants to help the poor there is no limit on what can be done. It
>>takes about $25.00 a month to send a person to a vocational school in
>>Nicaragua and this doesn't include clothes, shoes, transportation, food,
>>etc. Got to run now Ron. Good luck on your efforts to help them. Ted
>>Keller
>

From john at gulland.ca Sun Mar 21 09:10:13 1999
From: john at gulland.ca (John Gulland)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:17 2004
Subject: Topic 2 - some notes about Prolena
In-Reply-To: <v01540b02b318da54a3a5@[204.131.233.48]>
Message-ID: <000001be73a4$c90dace0$1f053ad8@JohnGulland>

Ronal wrote:
> Stovers: Any questions?

Not so far, but I'm enjoying your series of reports and look forward to the
next installment.
Regards,
John

From larcon at sni.net Mon Mar 22 02:28:57 1999
From: larcon at sni.net (Ronal W. Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:17 2004
Subject: Gaur and Reed book availability
Message-ID: <v01540b00b31b853dfe12@[204.131.233.8]>

Stovers: I can't remember if this was an on-list or off-list dialog that
generated this response, but I think that the following may be of intrest
to the full list.

Ron

>From: Reedtb2@cs.com
>Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 09:17:28 EST
>To: larcon@sni.net, John Olsen <cree@dowco.com>
>Mime-Version: 1.0
>Subject: Re: Where do I get??
>
>Dear John:
>
>Our book "Thermal Data for natural and Synthetic Fuels", Gaur, Reed, 1998, is
>available from Marcel Dekker and contains detailed thermograms of the
>breakdown of 100 materials with heat.
>
>The summary list of PROX and ULT analysis of 400 materials is in the appendix.
>I hope to post it on my website next time I update.... Other good stuff there
>at www.webpan.com/BEF.
>
>Yours truly, TOM REED

Ronal W. Larson, PhD
21547 Mountsfield Dr.
Golden, CO 80401, USA
303/526-9629; FAX same with warning
larcon@sni.net

From larcon at sni.net Mon Mar 22 02:48:14 1999
From: larcon at sni.net (Ronal W. Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:17 2004
Subject: Forwarding robert luis rabello
Message-ID: <v01540b01b31ba6f0e134@[204.131.233.7]>

I am quite sure that robert luis rabello wanted me to forward this on.
The only additional comment (except for some apologies on my several errors
caused by mislaying my notebook) is to say that Rogerio has been on the
"stoves" list for a long time. Some readers may not also know that Rogerio
is also the coordinator of a similar (but not limited to stoves) list
called "bioenergia" (with most dialog in Spanish). Anyone interested
should write to Rogerio (rmiranda@sdnnic.org.ni) if you want to be on that
list.

Ron

>Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 21:03:09 -0800
>From: robert luis rabello <rabello@uniserve.com>
>X-Accept-Language: en
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>To: "Ronal W. Larson" <larcon@sni.net>
>Subject: Re: Topic 1 - some notes about Rogerio Miranda
>
>> Apparently the native Central Americans
>> think he is from Europe as he is fairly light skinned and his accent isn't
>> obvious.
>
><snip>
>
> Many of us with Brasillian heritage are actually quite European in lineage
>and appearance. It's equivalent to "Americans", who can be of many different
>ethnic backgrounds. A few of my relatives who are native Portuguese speakers
>joke that Portuguese is "just Spanish with your nose clogged!"
>
>> <snip>
>
>> 8. Rogerio is from the Diras Gervais "state" within Brazil -
>> specifically, from Brazil's third largest (and apparently best) city -
>> Belle Horizonte.
>
> The state is called Minas Gerais and the city is Bello Horizonte. My
>mother is from Minas (a hole in the wall town called "Campo Bello".) Many of
>the place names have "bello" in them, which is the masculine form of
>"beautiful". It IS a verdant and lovely place, or at least, it was back in
>1970 when I last visited. . .
>
> Welcome to the list, Rogerio. Please forgive me for making corrections--I
>couldn't resist!
>
>robert luis rabello
>VisionWorks Communications
>

Ronal W. Larson, PhD
21547 Mountsfield Dr.
Golden, CO 80401, USA
303/526-9629; FAX same with warning
larcon@sni.net

From rmiranda at sdnnic.org.ni Mon Mar 22 14:13:39 1999
From: rmiranda at sdnnic.org.ni (Rogerio Miranda)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:17 2004
Subject: Topic 2 - some notes about Prolena
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990322102737.00854af0@pop.sdnnic.org.ni.>

Ron: Thanks for your kind words in the topic #1 (notes about Rogerio), also
thanks to Rabello for correcting the name of my homestate in Brazil, which
is Minas Gerais.

In regard topic #2 below, your description is accurate. I would add only
that in PROLEÑA we focused in promoting the development and modernization
of woodenergy. Right now here in Nicaragua we are implementing two field
projects aimed to improved charcoal production: one introducting forest
management, reforestation and new charcoal kilns to a traditional charcoal
making community with funds from IIZ (austrian NGO), and another working
with people affected by the Casita´s volcaeno mud slyde after Nurricane
Mitch. In this area there are lots of wood that came down from the mountain
with the slyde and we are helping those jobless and homeless people to make
charcoal with the fallen wood, in order to used the wasted wood and
generate jobs while the rainy season doesn´t come (until May). This last
project is an emergency project funded by ESMAP, the Energy Sector
Managemente Assistance Programm, a jointly World bank-UNDP programm.

Other projects includes the fuelwood strategy for sustainable supply and
efficient demand to western Nicaragua, which we are developing for the
Departament of Energy, and another similar strategy for northern Nicaragua
which will be started next month.

In regard stoves, here in Nicaragua, as Ron said, we are gathering baseline
data among improved and traditional open fires about efficiency and
emittions, in order to compare and posible generate recomendations for
actions. In Honduras we have a pilot dissemination project, which was
visited by John Gulland last December. Also recently Larry Winiarsky from
Aprovecho were in Honduras working to improve our plancha stove and
introducing Honduras to the rocket stove. I believe their work in Honduras
was quite susceful, acording to Dean Still.

In resume, we are still in search for a better stove. Ron Larson introduced
us to the charcoal making stove while he was here. It is an inovative
concept and I believe it could be adapted to our stoves. We discussed many
options, and he and us will try it in the time ahead. John Gulland called
our attention for the importance of the chimney, and for sure we will put
more attention into this key part of a "modern" stove. Dean Still and his
Aprovecho partners also introduced us to the highly efficient rocket stove,
which has show opportunities to be adapted to Central American situation.
Kirk Smith called our attention to the importance of keeping the emittions
at very low acceptable levels, which we are seriously taking in
consideration. Furthemore, this past week I received from Alison Doig of
ITDG an very interesting booklet about MUD STOVES in East Africa. It is a
construction manual with different models of mud stoves. I was very
impressed of how easy, affordable and efficient this stoves are. I wonder
if anyone in this list have any experience with these mud stoves ? It
seems to be very popular in Kenia, Uganda and Tanzania.

Regards

rogerio

>X-POP3-Rcpt: rmiranda@ns
>X-Sender: larcon@lynx.sni.net (Unverified)
>Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 19:15:11 -0600
>To: stoves@crest.org
>From: larcon@sni.net (Ronal W. Larson)
>Subject: Topic 2 - some notes about Prolena
>Sender: owner-stoves@crest.org
>
>Stovers:
>
> This second note is to give you a little more information about
>Rogerio Miranda's brainchild - Prolena.
>
> 1. "Lena" is the Spanish word for "wood"
> 2. Prolena has one small room in a nice downtown Managua
>residential house, getting the smallest part of a shared arrangement with
>an internet company and the Irish development group. This room is now too
>small for the Prolena staff (of 2 or 3?) with some thought of moving when
>they have to add the next staffer.
> 3. They are pretty well equipped with computer, fax/copier, small
>conference table, bookcase, etc - but not enough room for Rogerio to also
>be there much. Rogerio gets more done by mostly working at home, where
>that office is also well equipped.
> 4. The Prolena president is a native Nicaraguan (Leonardo) who is
>a professor (not sure of that?) (Electrical Engineer), who is also the
>local counterpart for a very impresive Austrian biomass project (that is
>not working on stoves). I have mentioned this group as doing coppicing of
>Moringa and hope to say more later.
> 5. Various types of funding is beginning to come in for Prolena.
>Rogerio and I worked together for a few days on a new project funded by the
>Nicaraguan Department of Energy to do a baseline survey of existing
>traditional stoves along with some improved stoves. I will eventually send
>some photos to Alex after they are developed that will show the stoves
>there (and Rogerio), but Rogerio has some already on Alex' web site that
>show similar work in Honduras.
> 6, While I was there, Rogerio seemed to be getting a good response
>from a major international donor group to whom he had sent a Prolena
>proposal. Rogerio looks to be very good as a proposal writer.
> 7. Rogerio is the vice-president of Prolena. Although the founder
>and working full time, Rogerio is getting ready for the next move as he and
>Margaret will have to move to another USAID assignment in a few years.
>
> Stovers: Any questions?
>
> Rogerio - this time you must comment about Prolena - I know I have
>left out a lot.
>
>Ron
>
>Ronal W. Larson, PhD
>21547 Mountsfield Dr.
>Golden, CO 80401, USA
>303/526-9629; FAX same with warning
>larcon@sni.net
>
>
>Stoves List SPONSORS and ARCHIVES:
>http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/stoves-list-archive/
>Stoves Webpage
>http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
>For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
>http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm
>
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Rogerio Carneiro de Miranda
Coordinador Proyecto EMOLEP
CATIE - PROLEÑA
Apartado Postal C-321
Managua, Nicaragua
TELEFAX (505) 276 2015, 270 5448
EMAIL: rmiranda@sdnnic.org.ni
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Stoves List SPONSORS and ARCHIVES:
http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/stoves-list-archive/
Stoves Webpage
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From raywije at eureka.lk Tue Mar 23 09:05:04 1999
From: raywije at eureka.lk (Ray Wijewardene)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:17 2004
Subject: for Ronal Larson from Ray at S.L.
Message-ID: <000501be752c$e85ef2a0$248d98ce@Ray.eureka.lk>

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From NFPWest at aol.com Tue Mar 23 12:28:07 1999
From: NFPWest at aol.com (NFPWest@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:17 2004
Subject: (no subject)
Message-ID: <10ed2be4.36f7cf84@aol.com>

Dear Ron and Stovers,

Ron, thanks for your report about conditions in Nicaragua and your visit with
Rogerio and PROLENA.

I met Rogerio in 1994 in Honduras when I was running New Forests Project. I
now run the international program of Trees, Water and People (TWP), a Colorado
based non-profit organization.

AHDESA (Honduran Association for Development), TWP's local partner in Honduras
and PROLENA have been working together on the pilot stove project in Suyapa,
just outside of Tegucigalpa for several years promoting the plancha stove.
With support from Rotary Clubs and International Rotary, AHDESA is receiving
funding to build 500 improved stoves in Honduras. To get this project moving,
TWP joined with the Aprovecho Institute to send down Dr. Larry Winiarski,
inventor of the Rocket stove and several other Aprovecho volunteers to
introduce the Rocket stove to Honduras.

While in Honduras, Larry worked on some experiments to test out the Rocket
stove using local materials. The result has been a hybrid stove that we are
calling the Loroca stove (estufa loroca), that combines the more fuel-
efficient aspects of the Rocket stove, such as smaller, better insulated
combustion chamber, with the advantages of the Lorena (plancha) stove,
including space to cook/heat more than one pot (or many tortillas) and the
chimney to get rid of noxious smoke.

Dean Still and his students at Aprovecho are doing more tests on the Loroca
stove to measure its efficiency and try to come up with alternative
materials. Dean has also agreed to draw up the design and produce a booklet on
the LOROCA stove. Furthermore, TWP and APROVECHO are working on sending Dr.
Winiarski back down to Honduras this year and also to Nicaragua to visit with
Rogerio and PROLENA and do a series of training seminars to introduce the
Rocket and the LOROCA stove into Nicaragua.

From NFPWest at aol.com Tue Mar 23 13:09:38 1999
From: NFPWest at aol.com (NFPWest@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:17 2004
Subject: Improved Stoves in Honduras & Nicaragua
Message-ID: <38fc723a.36f7d94e@aol.com>

Dear Ron and Stovers,

Ron, thanks for your report about conditions in Nicaragua and your visit with
Rogerio and PROLENA.

I met Rogerio in 1994 in Honduras when I was running New Forests Project. I
now run the international program of Trees, Water and People (TWP), a Colorado
based non-profit organization.

Stuart Conway
Trees, Water and People
nfpwest@aol.com
Stoves List SPONSORS and ARCHIVES:
http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/stoves-list-archive/
Stoves Webpage
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From larcon at sni.net Tue Mar 23 17:02:03 1999
From: larcon at sni.net (Ronal W. Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:17 2004
Subject: REQUEST FOR INFORMATION
Message-ID: <v01540b04b31d65b8a588@[204.131.233.7]>

Daniel (cc to "stoves")

Please see interspersed notes below.

>Dear Sir,
>
>I was delighted reading your response on charcoal making stove.

I am not sure which you are referring to as this is a common ttopic
on this list. Please look at our archives and web site:

Stoves List SPONSORS and ARCHIVES:
http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/stoves-list-archive/
Stoves Webpage
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html

Several on this list would also be pleased to answer more questions
on this topic, which still seems to be only in the development stage. I
encourage them to write you directly, or (preferably) through this list.
I am unaware of any commercial use yet of the CMS.

>You
>indicated places like Sudan, Ethiopia where charcoal is made in the local
>way. But my question is, are there no industrial furnace that one can make
>about five tons of charcoal per day?

On this list, we are trying generally to concentrate on ways of
making charcoal where the usual vented pyrolysis gases (having 60-70% of
the initial energy) are used productively if at all possible, or at least
are flared rather than vented. Elsen Karstad has been talking on this list
recently of his success in converting sawdust to charcoal by flaring (and
using the resultant large draft to draw air through the sawdust to achieve
the pyrolysis). This is acceptable without other use of the heat, since
the sawdust would otherwise only rot. Can you think of any wood-using
needs in Cameroon for large scale low-cost heat? Bakeries, brick-making,
etc

Concerning small-scale, household production of charcoal - there
are some of us on this list who think you can get to 5 tons to day with
perhaps about 5000 households (one kg per family from 4 kg wood input).
Probably you can do this easily in just a few cities and simultaneously
raise the incomes of the cooks and improve their air quality. But the
concept needs more work to fit with local Cameroon cooking traditions.

> My interest in it is that, there is
>local market for charcoal in Cameroon, West Africa and I would like to
>venture in it.
>
>Daniel B. Ebai
>Managing Director
>ETS. EBAINSO
>Tel 713-245-1262 x8521
>E-Mail EBAINSO@SHELLUS.COM

The local market for charcoal is what should drive this still
untested approach.

If you still have interest, the first step would be to have you
join our (free) list to listen in for awhile. Please let me know if that
is your desire. After that, we need to hear more about the type of cooking
done in the Cameroon.

We welcome your interest in this product area.

Ron

Ronal W. Larson, PhD
21547 Mountsfield Dr.
Golden, CO 80401, USA
303/526-9629; FAX same with warning
larcon@sni.net

From raywije at eureka.lk Fri Mar 26 00:47:41 1999
From: raywije at eureka.lk (Ray Wijewardene)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:17 2004
Subject: Your introduction as a new "stoves" member by Ron Larson
Message-ID: <002801be774b$7e135000$218d98ce@Ray.eureka.lk>

Thank you for your most informative email of the
24th March, which I have studied most carefully. I trust uit in order tio senbd
a copy of my reponse, also, to Ron Larson et.al at 'stoves'.

Pardon me if I view the (commercial -
small-scale?) production of 'charcoal' as quite separate from
'wood-burning-stoves'... although I appreciate that an intermediate stage in the
conversion of the wood to heat would indeed be charcoal.

There is indeed a tremendous need for the production of
'clean-charcoal' and a means for dealing with the very obnoxious, volatile,
grossly-polluting and (probably much of it) combustible gasses.

You briefly describe your equipment as
"moderately priced and if each community used one in conjunction with
susrtainable coppicing, it could efficiently produce enough clean burning
charcoal and dry wood for all its cooking and other heating needs"

I shall be much obliged Thomas, if you would
kindly share with me the
information on that equipment to enable us to
put - at least a prototype - into operation here in Sri Lanka. Thjere is a VERY
great need here for such equipment as the making of charcoal is indeed a major
rural problem. There is a CURRENT and urgent demand for the charcoal from
coconut shells as a by-product of the coconut industy here. That is a major
industry in Sri Lanka (and I happen to be a coconut farmer in my 'retired' life)
But there have been heavy restrictions on the production of this charcoal for
(understandable) environmental reasons. Your equiopment could well resolve that
problem.

Would you please, Thomas, be so kind as to let
me know how we, in Sri Lanka, may obtain suh equipment..... Thank you... RAY
WIJEWARDENE
133 Dharmapala Mawatha, Colombo 07. Tel/Fax +
94-1-421881.

<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">
-----Original Message-----From:
T J Stubbing <<A
href="mailto:heat-win@cwcom.net">heat-win@cwcom.net>To: <A
href="mailto:raywije@eureka.lk">raywije@eureka.lk <<A
href="mailto:raywije@eureka.lk">raywije@eureka.lk>Date:
Wednesday, March 24, 1999 9:56 AMSubject: Your introduction
as a new "stoves" member by Ron LarsonDear
Ray,
In a message quoted by Ron on Saturday you wrote:
"I am not too sure I am all that enthusiastic about
just making charcoal (knowing well the ~60% energy losses enroute)
but am very keen about making stoves which can pyrolise wood-fuel and
utilising the gas therefrom for domestic cooking."Though
not a member, I look at the stoves, gasification and bioenergy lists daily
and have occasionally made a contribution, my most recent to 'stoves' being
on 2nd February when I wrote:
"In his message of 2nd February Elk wrote:
"Claudio Sbaraglia's query through
Ronal on clean charcoaling      is important I
feel. More work should be done with an aim to
developing methods for flaring the volatile
gaseous      emissions.   There's
little doubt in my mind that this is
possible and that benefit could outweigh costs."
A UK forestry entrepreneur has now been given a small grant towards a
collaborative 'Enhancement of Wood Fuels' feasibility study
involving the fast and energy efficient airless drying of split
'green' logs, which sterilises them and converts them into a
clean-burning fuel, with the already tested option of raising the
temperature of the small and inexpensive machine's recirculating
superheated steam atmosphere when drying is complete so as to
initiate anaerobic pyrolysis.
In a total of six hours we have thus dried logs and converted them
into barbecue charcoal while emitting around 80% of the wood's
energy as smoke! What we plan to do during the feasibility
study is ignite the smoke and show that the combustion gases can not
only operate the process but in addition dry around six times as
much wood as is converted to charcoal so that both it and the extra
dried wood can be sold.
More information about our patented airless drying technology can be
found at <<A
href="http://www.dryers-airless.mcmail.com">http://www.dryers-airless.mcmail.com>."I
agree entirely with your also quoted comments on the need for constantly
renewed coppicing and you may like to consider bamboo, which produces up to
four times the weight of dry matter per annum as eucalyptus, etc.
Coming back to your "(knowing well the ~60% energy losses
enroute)", the main aim of our feasibility study is to use that ~60% of
the energy in the wood from which the charcoal is made to dry more wood, not
to the around 20% moisture content achieved by seasoning but to as little as
the 0% achievable in a superheated steam dryer.
This produces a wood fuel similar to the also produced charcoal in that
it burns cleanly and efficiently.
We expect our equipment to be modestly priced and if each community used
one in conjunction with sustainable coppicing it could efficiently produce
enough clean burning charcoal and dry wood for all its cooking and other
heating needs.
If you wish I will keep you informed as our study progresses.
Regards,
Thomas

From enecon at ozemail.com.au Fri Mar 26 02:22:45 1999
From: enecon at ozemail.com.au (Colin Stucley)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:17 2004
Subject: Larger scale charcoal production
Message-ID: <01be775a$4e34d5c0$LocalHost@colin>

Daniel,

I read with interest your recent email via
CREST's stoves network. You asked for information on charcoal production
equipment capable of, say 5 tonne per day production.

Our company (Enecon Pty Ltd) has the licence to charcoal
technology developed by the CSIRO (which is the major Government research
organisation here in Australia). This technology is aimed at large scale
production of charcoal via fluidised beds. The intention is
two-fold. Firstly to make charcoal for cooking or metallurgical use and
secondly to make charcoal as a feedstock for CSIRO -designed equipment to
manufacture activated carbon.

Importantly, the CSIRO technology aims at maximising capture
of the 60% of energy that is normally lost during charcoal manufacture.
Volatiles and controlled amounts of fixed carbon are combusted and heating coils
are used to recover energy, for example via hot oil or as steam for process use
or running a turbine. To our knowledge this is the most energy efficient,
large scale charcoal technology available.

CSIRO has developed this technology over several years and has
successfully built and operated two pilot scale plants. Enecon and CSIRO
are now engaged in two separate studies looking at large scale charcoal
production in Australia. This will include costing of full scale
plants capable of between 1,500 and 12,000 tonne per year of
charcoal.

I would be happy to discuss this further if you wish.
Our company is also trying to "track down" simpler, smaller charcoal
equipment that is mobile and can therfore be moved into and around forests to
avoid large wood transport costs.

Kind regards,

Colin Stucley

From Alex.English at adan.kingston.net Fri Mar 26 07:55:36 1999
From: Alex.English at adan.kingston.net (*.english)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:17 2004
Subject: Charcoal-Webpage Update.
Message-ID: <199903261255.HAA05780@adan.kingston.net>

Dear Stovers,
I have posted a document about a charcoal plant, sent to me by
Dr.Yury Yudkevitch. Check the Stoves Webpage under the New section.

From larcon at sni.net Sun Mar 28 00:42:35 1999
From: larcon at sni.net (Ronal W. Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:17 2004
Subject: Mail System Error - Returned Mail (fwd)
Message-ID: <v01540b00b32355d9b8b0@[204.131.233.42]>

All Stovers (but especially those in developing countries - such as Elsen
(Kenya), Rogerio (Nicaragua), Priyadarshini (India), and all others): The
following request for help came in from a young female engineering student
working on a charcoal-making stove project (one of 20 such early
engineering students in a design course where "stoves" list member Dr. Bob
Knecht is in charge at the Colorado School of Mines - a fine state school
in my home town of Golden.

Your help is being asked in adding to my comments with more
specific answers. I ask that everyone reply through the list, so we might
all benefit from getting some discrete answers.

El-Arbi - I just received this message today. Sorry that you had the
problem - but glad that you figured out the error in my address below (sni
- not snt). See my notes below interspersed with your various questions.

>Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 16:34:31 -0700 (MST)
>From: Al-Arbi <ialabri@mines.edu>
>To: larcon@snt.net
>Subject: improving charcoal stoves
>Message-ID: <Pine.A41.4.10.9903221623060.53706-100000@slate.Mines.EDU>
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
>
>Dear Dr Ron
>I am a member in JASI 4 and i have some questions.
>my subsytem is dealing with cost. i have to relate cost from three
>different developing countiries. so i just got information from tanzania.

This is not an easy question. In general, you will find costs of
basic building materials in developing countries to be cheaper than in the
US. As a guess I would say about 1/2 to 2/3 as much. So I would check
prices here in Golden first of all. The reasons for lower cost are not
obvious to me, given these products (espec. steel) are often imported.
There just must be some pricing cuts from the exporting countries, but I
suppose the quality is not as good, and the salaries are much lower and
markups must therefore be less for labor and lower overhead reasons.

>but i can not find information from other two developing countries. could
>you please guide me where to find the following information:
>the price of bricks, clay and adobe

In Nicaragua a few weeks ago, the cost of a large concrete block
was about US 50 cents. But there were many sizes seen and it would be good
to get a wider range of prices for different sizes.

There was a really fine stove-type block available all over that
was sawn from huge deposits (mountains) of light weight volcanic material.
The dimensions were 60 cm by 40 cm by 13 cm. The cost was approximately
$1.00. I would expect to pay at least $3.00 here in the US for this
insulating material - only a few of which are needed for a stove. I wish
it were available in tubular form.

Huge clay pots (say 20 liters) are available in many developing
countries for $1 or $2. I think there is great potential for these to be
designed as stoves. Perhaps Elsen (Kenya) can describe the current
replacement cost for ceramic jiko stove liners - (as well as their sizes
for comparison).

Anyone have a good current price for bricks? I vaguely remember 5
cents in Kafa Ethiopia for a fairly low quality brick. They are sure to be
lower cost in every developing country than here - by factors of at least 2
- maybe 3.

>cost of metal(scrap)

In Nicaragua, I saw a really fine piece of suitable (new) sheet
metal that looked like it was about 1 meter by 2 meters for a price of 85
Cordovas (about $7.50). One should be able to get half a dozen stoves from
such a sheet (depending on size, numbers of layers etc.) This data is
meaningless without a guage thickness - but I judged it adequate for
stoves. I have found it difficult to find such sheets in the US - but
suggest you talk to US roofing companies.

I paid about $1.00 for a scrap 20 liter can in a remote part of
Ethiopia a few years ago. We throw bigger ones away. In Nicaragua, I saw
charcoal burning stoves of about the same size (with legs) made from scrap
material selling for about $2.25 US. The value of the raw material wa
probably about 25 to 50 cents.

The price of used "50 gallon" (probably some other measure) oil
drums in Nicaragua was given to me as 50 cordovas or less than $4.50.
Rogerio - can you confirm this?

>price that they can resell charcoal for

The most difficult question and very variable. We have talked
about this on our list quite a bit - with little luck in getting a range of
prices. The price is very dependent (factors of 2 - 3) on how far one is
from the main nearby using city. Since CSM has so many foreign students, I
would urge you to ask as many of those students as you can - and to ask
them to write home for more data. The standard least-cost weight is
probably a sack of about 100 pounds - or 40 to 45 kilos. In many big city
neighborhoods in developing countries, the price triples (a guess) as the
quantity drops to what the very poor can afford.

>the quality of charcoal Vs price

In general, the larger piece are more costly. When it turns to
dust, it is free. In Sudan, charcoal is sold by volume - not by weight -
so one ought to be buying by density, but this is not necessarily the way
the housewife chooses. I think there is definitely a quality factor, but I
don't know enough. Elsen? Kirk Smith?

>price spent to make a charcoal.

Mostly, I think you are asking about the annual wage and how much
charcoal can be made in a year in remote places. Many poor are living on
about $100 US per year. They pick up (sometimes stealing) the wood from
unfenced land often owned by the government - so the only real cost is
their own labor - which comes very cheap ($1.00 per day can be high). They
are then ripped off by charcoal merchants who have the wherewithal to send
lorries to the remote places to buy low what they sell high.

Because of the time delay in getting your message to me, and my
leaving in a week, I decided to send your message (and this reply) to the
full stoves list. I only ask that you promise to report back to the full
list.
>
>please Dr Ron, i will be glad if you would tell me where to go or how can
>i find these information.
>i spent the whole spring break trying to find, but i could not get
>information from othe two countries
>thanxxx alot
>i am looking forward for your reply
>
>EAL-ABRI INTISAR

I hope this is of help. I now hope you have a problem sorting out
large amounts if data from a wide range of parts of the world.

Stovers - I hope you can help Al-Abri - while helping us all on a very
difficult analysis problem.

Ronal W. Larson, PhD
21547 Mountsfield Dr.
Golden, CO 80401, USA
303/526-9629; FAX same with warning
larcon@sni.net

From larcon at sni.net Sun Mar 28 00:42:39 1999
From: larcon at sni.net (Ronal W. Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:17 2004
Subject: Request for Lorena stove design assistance
Message-ID: <v01540b01b32364af3525@[204.131.233.42]>

Marcus (cc to stoves): 1. This topic is about to come up on the "stoves"
list, as I continue (if I can find time) my series of reports on Nicaragua
and stoves. Please keep track of our dialog through our web site or let me
know if you want to become a list member.

2. You or your friend may wish to contact Rogerio Miranda in Managua:
rmiranda@pop.sdnnic.org.ni

3. I don't recognize the term: "Suyapa"

4. I hope anyone able to help with specific plans for the Lorena will
reply through "stoves".

Good luck Ron

>To whom it may concern:
>
>I am very interested in obtaining plans for Lorena Stoves and results of
>installations -- The Suyapa Nicaragua project sounds very interesting --
>please reply -- I have a friend who is going to Central America on a church
>project and would like to try interesting the locals in the idea.
>
>Marcus J. Smith
>Bethesda, MD
>
>>From solar-concentrator-errors@cichlid.com Sat Mar 27 07:00:30 1999

Ronal W. Larson, PhD
21547 Mountsfield Dr.
Golden, CO 80401, USA
303/526-9629; FAX same with warning
larcon@sni.net

From dstill at epud.org Sun Mar 28 19:06:58 1999
From: dstill at epud.org (Dean Still)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:17 2004
Subject: Request for Lorena stove design assistance
Message-ID: <01BE7936.BE39B380@dialport175.epud.net>

Dear Friends,

Aprovecho helped to design the Lorena stove and wrote and published plans for the stove. But, two decades of use have pointed out serious problems with the stove. The Lorena has been tested over the years by many researchers and has generally been found to use more firewood than an indoor open fire.

The stove has other attributes. Its chimney takes smoke out of the kitchen and it is well liked. It is pretty and a nice addition to the house. It is low cost and can be repaired and even built by the home owner. But, it is not a fuel saving or low emission stove.

The reasons for the poor performance of the Lorena stove are varied but the main reason was that ( twenty years ago) we mistakenly believed that earth was insulation. The original books on the Lorena stove repeatedly state that the insulation provided by the earth makes for higher combustion temperatures which results in more complete combustion. The designers also hoped that the tunnels of earth in the Lorena directed the fire at the pot, increasing contact.

These assumption are incorrect. Earth is an example of thermal mass, not insulation. It is a poor insulator. The R-value of tightly packed earth is around .25 per inch of thickness. Wood is about 1R per inch of thickness. Good insulation is made up of small pockets of air separated from other small pockets of air by a light weight low conductive material. Wood ash can be a great insulation, as is charcoal, pumice rock, vermiculite, etc.. But Lorena mix does not have much air in it. Instead, the densely packed together sand and clay absorb heat easily. Heat also easily passes through Lorena mix.

When used as the walls of the combustion chamber of a stove, Lorena mix absorbs a lot of heat lowering combustion temperatures and making more smoke. As importantly, heat that should have gone into the pot ends up in the body of the stove. Lowered efficiency of combustion and absorption of heat by the stove body lower the fuel efficiency of the stove.

It takes hours of heating for the very thick stove body to equilibrate: that is, when as much heat is coming into the stove body as is leaving it so the temperature of the stove body stabilizes. Studies show that the stove body equilibrates at around 275 degrees F. When the stove is hot it takes less heat away from the pot, but heat continues to be lost at the lower rate. The stored heat is only useful if the fire goes out. But, not many people cook without a fire going in the Lorena so even the retained heat is often wasted. The pot, exposed to flame is usually hotter than 275 F. so retained heat is not directly useful for cooking food. Heat travels from hot to cold. If the pot is hotter than the Lorena wall, the heat still just travels away from the pot toward the colder exterior of the stove.

Another big problem with the Lorena is that only the bottom of the pot is exposed to the fires' heat. There is poor heat transfer to the pot. Exposing as much of the pot to the fires heat is the most important way to increase fuel efficiency in a stove. It is much more important than increasing fuel efficiency. The sides of the pot, and also the top for greatest efficiency, should be exposed to hot flue gases. The original Lorena does not do this.

Because of 1.)lowered combustion efficiency, 2.)heat absorption into the body of the stove and3.) poor heat transfer to the pot the Lorena usually uses more firewood than most indoor three stone fires. Earthen stoves usually suffer from some of the same problems. Earth is not insulation, instead it absorbs heat that should have gone into the pot. The cool earthen walls cool fires and can cause smoking from a fire.

The problems are easy to address, however.

Complete combustion can be approached by:

metering the fuel

insulating around the combustion chamber

forming a grate out of the wood

burning the wood at the tip

preheating the air that enters the fire chamber

igniting escaping smoke

providing sufficient air and sufficient draft

This combination of principles results in good clean burns so usually combustion is at 90% or greater. This is the easy part. Using a insulated chimney 10" high will help to accomplish many of these objectives. Cooking takes place on top of the chimney.

The hard part is to get the heat into the pot. The best that we're going to do is to get less than half the total heat into the pot. To optimize heat transfer you can:

insulate and thermally separate the fire and heat from the stove body

shorten the heat flow path to the pot as much as possible

try to have flame touch or nearly touch the pot (initial clean combustion suffers less from condensing gases on the pot)

encourage hot flue gases to intimately touch, to rub against, as much of the pot as possible. This is helped tremendously by putting a skirt around the sides of the pot. The gap should be about 3/16". This adds about 12% efficiency to the stove by itself!

There are many variations of these design principles that make up a group of stoves called "Rocket" stoves. But, Rockets look different in each country because needs are different and materials are different. In Honduras, a team from Aprovecho is helping local organizations to adapt these principles to a stove that looks a lot like the Lorena with a grill on top. This stove, called the Loroca, is a Rocket type stove even though the grill or plancha hinders heat transfer to the pot. In this case, locals very much wanted a plancha type stove so only a part of the stoves operation could be optimized. But, much of the Loroca is a Rocket in a Lorena.

By following these design principles fuel efficiency and low emissions are much more probable. There are even "New Lorena" designs without planchas. But, it would seem wasteful to continue building the old Lorena without updating it.

I can't end without adding that research shows tremendous savings by using Hayboxes which cook food using 1/4 the fuel we are used to expending to cook beans, etc. An airtight box with R-7 worth of natural insulation, (wool, straw, cork, ashes, etc.) will cook pinto beans after only ten minutes of boiling. The retained heat in the pot without added mass, finishes this once tedious and fuel consuming job! Hayboxes also help with smoke inhalation because the fire is used for a much shorter time period. Aprovecho has a booklet describing the whole five part cooking system. Reach them at apro@efn.org

Best Regards,

Dean Still
A.T. Coordinator
Aprovecho Research Center

From karve at wmi.co.in Mon Mar 29 01:37:55 1999
From: karve at wmi.co.in (karve)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:17 2004
Subject: Stovers' Conference
Message-ID: <36FF204C.A5D77B72@wmi.co.in>

Dear Stovers,
I am sorry that I have fallen far behind my intended schedule of
giving detailed information regarding the conference due to various
other work commitments. I hope that I will be able to send a detailed
note as to the contents, programme, budget, etc. within this week. For
now, just one important announcement:
With due consideration to the Y2K issue, we have decided to postpone
the conference. It could have been held in March, but March-April is not
convenient for us because we are generally busy in winding up old
projects and initiating new ones in this period. Thereafter comes the
Summer which we want to avoid, especially since our conference programme
shall include a few field visits. Monsoon is also not good for
travelling around. So that brings us to November. Thus, we have decided
that the conference will be organised in the latter half of November
2000. I request all of you to arrange your work schedules to make it
convenient to attend the conference.
I am grateful to all of you who have promptly responded to my
request for information. However, some of you who had expressed interest
in participating when the conference was being planned, have not yet
send the relevant information. Please do so, if you are still
interested.
You are most welcome to bring your family for a visit to India.
November-December is in general a pleasant season for travelling and
sightseeing. In case you want to bring your family members, please send
their relevant information (full name, address, passport details) too,
to avoid problems in getting the visa.
With regards,
Priyadarshini Karve.

From Reedtb2 at cs.com Mon Mar 29 10:22:53 1999
From: Reedtb2 at cs.com (Reedtb2@cs.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:17 2004
Subject: EPICS Stove Class at CSM
Message-ID: <d9cbc6c.36ff85e3@cs.com>

Dear EAL-ABRI INTISAR, Epics Stovers, Bob Knecht, Ron Larson and STOVES:

Bob Knecht is in charge of the "Epics" program at the Colorado School of
Mines. It teaches research, writing, speaking and cooperative team skills to
our engineering students by solving engineering problems with teams of
students. I believe it is unmatched in other engineering schools in the U. S.
and I hope it is still as good when my grandchildren are ready to go to
"Mines". I was glad to hear that Epics has a STOVE project this semester. I
hope Prof. Knecht will take this opportunity to brag a little about the course
as he did at lunch here a few months ago.

Judging from the letter below, Mr. INTISAR is trying to answer an impossible
question - or at least one that is not well defined in his letter. There are
many materials that can be used to make the inverted downdraft (charcoal
making, top lighted) stove and the particular materials used will be VERY site
specific. Some countries are excellent in metal work, others in pottery.
There is no GENERAL answer to materials cost until you choose one country and
even one region as a target and have decided on the most appropriate design.

I remember when I first started working with Dr. Ron Larson, our moderator, in
1993, that he focussed on CHEAP before he had decided what the scientific
parameters of the stove were. You can build the stove with a hole in the
ground if cost is the only measure. Later he became more concerned with air
supply to the fuel and gas etc. and made considerable progress. Then he went
back to the questions of appropriate low cost construction.

I had hoped that the EPICS class would focus on engineering aspects first and
learn more about the effect of draft, moisture, different fuels, etc.,
information that would be useful in all stove design. Then they could
determine optimum (including low cost) methods of construction. There is lots
of room for innovation here, but it should be based on the understanding of
gasification and gas combustion principles first.

So I hope that Prof. Knecht can get on the line and tell us STOVERS what the
assignment is and what they hope to learn. Then we can more intelligently
comment to the students. This could be a wonderful collaboration between CSM
students and CREST Stovers.

Hoping for the best,

Yours truly, Prof. TOM REED, CSM

In a message dated 3/27/99 10:49:26 PM Mountain Standard Time, larcon@sni.net
writes:

<<
>Dear Dr Ron
>I am a member in JASI 4 and i have some questions.
>my subsytem is dealing with cost. i have to relate cost from three
>different developing countiries. so i just got information from tanzania.
This is not an easy question. In general, you will find costs of
basic building materials in developing countries to be cheaper than in the
US. As a guess I would say about 1/2 to 2/3 as much. So I would check
prices here in Golden first of all. The reasons for lower cost are not
obvious to me, given these products (espec. steel) are often imported.
There just must be some pricing cuts from the exporting countries, but I
suppose the quality is not as good, and the salaries are much lower and
markups must therefore be less for labor and lower overhead reasons.
>but i can not find information from other two developing countries. could
>you please guide me where to find the following information:
>the price of bricks, clay and adobe
In Nicaragua a few weeks ago, the cost of a large concrete block
was about US 50 cents. But there were many sizes seen and it would be good
to get a wider range of prices for different sizes.
There was a really fine stove-type block available all over that
was sawn from huge deposits (mountains) of light weight volcanic material.
The dimensions were 60 cm by 40 cm by 13 cm. The cost was approximately
$1.00. I would expect to pay at least $3.00 here in the US for this
insulating material - only a few of which are needed for a stove. I wish
it were available in tubular form.
Huge clay pots (say 20 liters) are available in many developing
countries for $1 or $2. I think there is great potential for these to be
designed as stoves. Perhaps Elsen (Kenya) can describe the current
replacement cost for ceramic jiko stove liners - (as well as their sizes
for comparison).
Anyone have a good current price for bricks? I vaguely remember 5
cents in Kafa Ethiopia for a fairly low quality brick. They are sure to be
lower cost in every developing country than here - by factors of at least 2
- maybe 3.
>cost of metal(scrap)
In Nicaragua, I saw a really fine piece of suitable (new) sheet
metal that looked like it was about 1 meter by 2 meters for a price of 85
Cordovas (about $7.50). One should be able to get half a dozen stoves from
such a sheet (depending on size, numbers of layers etc.) This data is
meaningless without a guage thickness - but I judged it adequate for
stoves. I have found it difficult to find such sheets in the US - but
suggest you talk to US roofing companies.
I paid about $1.00 for a scrap 20 liter can in a remote part of
Ethiopia a few years ago. We throw bigger ones away. In Nicaragua, I saw
charcoal burning stoves of about the same size (with legs) made from scrap
material selling for about $2.25 US. The value of the raw material wa
probably about 25 to 50 cents.
The price of used "50 gallon" (probably some other measure) oil
drums in Nicaragua was given to me as 50 cordovas or less than $4.50.
Rogerio - can you confirm this?

>price that they can resell charcoal for
The most difficult question and very variable. We have talked
about this on our list quite a bit - with little luck in getting a range of
prices. The price is very dependent (factors of 2 - 3) on how far one is
from the main nearby using city. Since CSM has so many foreign students, I
would urge you to ask as many of those students as you can - and to ask
them to write home for more data. The standard least-cost weight is
probably a sack of about 100 pounds - or 40 to 45 kilos. In many big city
neighborhoods in developing countries, the price triples (a guess) as the
quantity drops to what the very poor can afford.
>the quality of charcoal Vs price
In general, the larger piece are more costly. When it turns to
dust, it is free. In Sudan, charcoal is sold by volume - not by weight -
so one ought to be buying by density, but this is not necessarily the way
the housewife chooses. I think there is definitely a quality factor, but I
don't know enough. Elsen? Kirk Smith?
>price spent to make a charcoal.
Mostly, I think you are asking about the annual wage and how much
charcoal can be made in a year in remote places. Many poor are living on
about $100 US per year. They pick up (sometimes stealing) the wood from
unfenced land often owned by the government - so the only real cost is
their own labor - which comes very cheap ($1.00 per day can be high). They
are then ripped off by charcoal merchants who have the wherewithal to send
lorries to the remote places to buy low what they sell high.
Because of the time delay in getting your message to me, and my
leaving in a week, I decided to send your message (and this reply) to the
full stoves list. I only ask that you promise to report back to the full
list.
>
>please Dr Ron, i will be glad if you would tell me where to go or how can
>i find these information.
>i spent the whole spring break trying to find, but i could not get
>information from othe two countries
>thanxxx alot
>i am looking forward for your reply
>
>EAL-ABRI INTISAR
I hope this is of help. I now hope you have a problem sorting out
large amounts if data from a wide range of parts of the world.
Stovers - I hope you can help Al-Abri - while helping us all on a very
difficult analysis problem.
Ronal W. Larson, PhD
21547 Mountsfield Dr.
Golden, CO 80401, USA
303/526-9629; FAX same with warning
larcon@sni.net
>>

From english at adan.kingston.net Mon Mar 29 13:16:34 1999
From: english at adan.kingston.net (*.English)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:17 2004
Subject: combustion testing
Message-ID: <199903291816.NAA12646@adan.kingston.net>

Hello all,

I have recently been playing around with a home made particulate
emissions sampler based on the Condar dilution tunnel. I understand
that it was also part of Oregon Method 41 ??? for wood stoves.

I have posted two informal webpages.

http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/test/test.htm
has results from tests done on a downdraft cord wood fired outdoor
water stove (boiler).

http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/emissions/emissions.htm
has results from my small natural draft charcoal making burner, using
wood pellet fuel. This is an ideal fuel yielding ideal results, even
without any insulation. Insulation would likely help create ideal
results with less than ideal fuel. The next test will be to see how
much excess air can be tolerated using an insulated combustion
chamber.

Comments are welcome. Alex English

From elk at net2000ke.com Tue Mar 30 01:00:35 1999
From: elk at net2000ke.com (Elsen Karstad)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:17 2004
Subject: some info for EAL-ABRI INTISAR
Message-ID: <199903300604.JAA08941@net2000ke.com>

From dstill at epud.org Wed Mar 31 02:06:27 1999
From: dstill at epud.org (Dean Still)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:17 2004
Subject: Durability of stainless steel
Message-ID: <01BE7B03.994C8600@dialport238.epud.net>

Does anyone have a ball park estimate for how long a 1/16" thick piece of stainless steel used as a combustion chamber would last?

Thanks very much,

Dean Still

From english at adan.kingston.net Wed Mar 31 06:29:55 1999
From: english at adan.kingston.net (*.English)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:17 2004
Subject: Genuine Virus Alert "W97M/Melisa"
Message-ID: <199903311129.GAA31200@adan.kingston.net>

Hi ,
The following warning came through from a credible source. At least
he was right the last time about Happy 99. I guess it would have
saved some people some problems if I had past the warning on last
time.

Alex English

Normally I don't forward Virus Alerts, but this one is genuine and
could potentially have unpleasant effects upon the list and its
members.

Do not open a Word file attached to an email with Subject line "Important
message from <somename>" The <someone> will most likely be a person that
you know, and it could even be the list. The Body text of the email will
read "Here is that document you asked for ... don't show anyone else ;-)".
The attached Word file is often named List.DOC, but it may also have other
names.

According to our local newspaper and other sources, the Word file has a
macro which causes your email software to send copies of itself to the
first 50 names in your email address book. Do not open the Word file, just
delete it (put in the Trash and empty the trash).

The listproc software that manages this list cannot be set to reject
attached files, so members of the list may receive copies of the
contaminated file from the list.

The following information on how this "W97M/Melisa", Worm/Macro/Word97 virus
works and how to cure was taken from:
http://www.avertlabs.com/public/datafiles/valerts/vinfo/melissa.asp
===

W97M/Melissa

Melissa is a Word 97 Class Module Macro virus that can also be upconverted
to a Word 2000 Macro Virus. It was first discovered by NAI's Dr Solomon's
VirusPatrol today on the alt.sex newgroup. The virus has spread rapidly
around the world, and has infected thousands

Symptom
The virus can infect a system by being received from another infected user
via Outlook. This appears to be the most common method of infection. Users
will not know they have been infected, nor will the sender know the
document has been sent. A user may become alerted to the infected document
if the Macro Security settings are enabled. This warning will be displayed
to the user when the document is opened.

Pathology
When the infected document is opened, the virus checks for a setting in the
registry to test if the system has already been infected.
If the system hasn't been infected, the virus creates an entry in the
registry: HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\Office\"Melissa?" = "... by
Kwyjibo"
(If this key exists the email process will not execute, the virus will
still infect. AVERT advises that it not be removed.)
(As a preventive message you can create this registry key to prevent the
virus from launching)
This virus also creates an Outlook object using Visual Basic instructions
and reads the list of members from Outlook Global Address Book. An email
message is created and sent to the first 50 recipients programatically all
the address books, one at a time. The message is created with the subject
"Important Message From - <User Name>"
The message body of text reads
"Here is that document you asked for ... don't show anyone else ;-)".
The active infected document is attached and the email is sent. The most
prevalent document being seen is one called List.DOC, however this is NOT
the only document that can be sent or received. Once the system is infected
all documents that are opened are infected. As any document can be sent, a
user that receives the infected document, who hasn't been infected, can
become infected with this document, and the process will continue.

BioEnergy Lists: Improved Biomass Cooking Stoves

March 1999 Biomass Cooking Stoves Archive