BioEnergy Lists: Improved Biomass Cooking Stoves

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November 2001 Biomass Cooking Stoves Archive

For more messages see our 1996-2004 Biomass Stoves Discussion List Archives.

From ronallarson at qwest.net Thu Nov 1 01:31:48 2001
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:15 2004
Subject: Refractories and Insulation
In-Reply-To: <3BDF624C.D928457D@cybershamanix.com>
Message-ID: <004201c1629f$20eb53e0$03e26641@computer>

Stovers:
I believe Peter would not mind my sending this reply on to the full
list - and perhaps it was his intent to send his message to stoves as well.

----- Original Message -----
From: Peter Verhaart <pverhaart@optusnet.com.au>
To: Ron Larson <ronallarson@qwest.net>
Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 10:49 PM
Subject: Re: Refractories and Insulation

> At 07:34 31/10/01 -0700, you wrote:
> >Harmon and stovers:
> >
> >
> > (RWL):
>
> Snip
>
> > The cost was $4.00 per square foot (about $4
> >per square meter).
> Wouldn't that be $36/m2 ?
>
(RWL) I accept that my approximation was a little loose - but I believe
after reflection that you will agree the swing is the other way - to
$43.06/m2. (1 sqft = .0929034 m2). Maybe some day (next century?) the US
will start pricng goods in m2 and this problem will go away.

>
> > An example in addition to the ones Tom Reed recently mentioned is the
> > Bunsen Burner. This works because
> >the (laboratory) gas is under pressure so that a Venturi effect can draw
in
> >the correct (controllable) amount of total air (no need to separate into
> >primary and secondary when the gas is totally combustable). Then mixing
> >occurs over a height of many diameters (6-10?) in what I remember, and
the
> >flame is a lovely blue color that we all want. I hope someone can tell
of
> >experiments or theory that says what that minimum height has to be for
the
> >laboratory-type Bunsen burner - that will help get at the question you
are
> >asking. I think Alex English may have studied this some.
>
> >
> When we had so-called Town gas (from coal, containing much H2), which has
> an appreciable blow-off velocity (the gas velocity at which the flame
blows
> off the nozzle), the diameter of the chimney is such that the flame will
> not be able to travel downward at the lowest setting.
> With Natural or LP gas, the flame velocity is much lower. In burners for
> these gases we find close to the nozzle a flow obstacle which offers an
> abrubt widening of the diameter, leaving a dead-water region with low
> circulation right after the obstacle where the burning gas-air mixture can
> burn while constantly reigniting the main flow. This is probably the cause
> of the noise ghese flemes make.
>
(RWL): Hmm. 1) I had not realized these attributes - but you have
whetted my appetitie on learning more. Any good references on velocities
and the reasons for widening and the noise associated. Any contribution on
the height needed for mixing?

>
> > In the Bunsen burner, that point is where one has a "screen". There
is
> >something about flame propagation speed that dictates how small the
screen
> >pores must be to not have the flame propagate down the "Bunsen burner"
> >mixing tube.
>
> It is more to prevent the blowing off, I think.
>
(RWL): We are way out of my element here. I guess you are saying that
the problem is not so much with flame fronts traveling back towards the
source. Again, I'd appreciate some references.

> >Because catalysis is important in flame ignition
> >temperature, we should be asking something about materials as well -
maybe
> >even a sacrificial material (if low cost).
>
> Dennis Jaasma has done tests with a catalyst (from Dow-Corning if memory
> serves) in the early eighties at Virginia State University.
>
(RWL) : Anyone able to add to this lead? Afraid I don't remember seeing
his name before - but "Jaasma" sounds like a possible graduate from
Eindhoven?

Piet - thanks for the added information. Ron

> Piet
>
>

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From Carefreeland at aol.com Thu Nov 1 05:50:18 2001
From: Carefreeland at aol.com (Carefreeland@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:15 2004
Subject: Refractories and Insulation
Message-ID: <14f.35507bc.291282d8@aol.com>

Tom R.
About those riser sleves. Is the "rigidisor" sodium silicate? I have a
buddie who casts Aluminum, and uses sodium silicate solution for a binder in
his sandmolds. He uses CO2 gas from a dry ice "melter" to cure the molds.
(we know that dry Ice sublimes directly into CO2 gas, no liquid phase). I
know that sodium silicate is used extensively in fireproofing and is a good
thing to work with while experimenting on combustion.
Dan Dimiduk

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From mheat at mha-net.org Thu Nov 1 07:41:21 2001
From: mheat at mha-net.org (Norbert Senf)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:15 2004
Subject: Refractories and Insulation
In-Reply-To: <3BDF624C.D928457D@cybershamanix.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011101073033.00c4f2e0@127.0.0.1>

At 11:33 PM 2001-10-31 -0700, Ron Larson wrote:
>(snip)
> > Dennis Jaasma has done tests with a catalyst (from Dow-Corning if memory
> > serves) in the early eighties at Virginia State University.
> >
> (RWL) : Anyone able to add to this lead? Afraid I don't remember seeing
>his name before - but "Jaasma" sounds like a possible graduate from
>Eindhoven?

Dr. Jaasma is at the Dep't of Mechanical Engineering at Virginia
Polytechnical Institute in Blacksburg. He used to run the combustion lab
there, and now has a private consulting company. He has done a lot of
research on wood burning heating stoves. The first North American masonry
heater testing was done at his lab in 1989, when we needed to develop a
protocol for emissions testing.

Best ....... Norbert

----------------------------------------
Norbert Senf---------- mheat@mha-net.org-nospam
Masonry Stove Builders (remove -nospam)
RR 5, Shawville------- www.heatkit.com
Quebec J0X 2Y0-------- fax:-----819.647.6082
---------------------- voice:---819.647.5092


 

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From mheat at mha-net.org Thu Nov 1 07:42:53 2001
From: mheat at mha-net.org (Norbert Senf)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:15 2004
Subject: Refractories and Insulation
In-Reply-To: <14f.35507bc.291282d8@aol.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011101074127.00bf6f00@127.0.0.1>

At 05:50 AM 2001-11-01 -0500, Carefreeland@aol.com wrote:
> Tom R.
> About those riser sleves. Is the "rigidisor" sodium silicate? (snip)

I once bought a bucket of rigidizer from A.P. Green, and it was zirconium.

Best .... Norbert

 

----------------------------------------
Norbert Senf---------- mheat@mha-net.org-nospam
Masonry Stove Builders (remove -nospam)
RR 5, Shawville------- www.heatkit.com
Quebec J0X 2Y0-------- fax:-----819.647.6082
---------------------- voice:---819.647.5092


 

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From tombreed at home.com Fri Nov 2 07:33:59 2001
From: tombreed at home.com (Thomas Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:15 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Power Point of Shimada
Message-ID: <005001c16396$c5d995e0$18e5b618@lakwod3.co.home.com>

 

Dear John Olson:

Loved your site <A
href="http://sites.netscape.net/hempcree/creeindustries"><FONT
size=3>http://sites.netscape.net/hempcree/creeindustriesand will
recommend it to various clients of mine. Yes, please send me a copy of your
power point presentation. 

Do you know Hub Stassen in the Netherlands?  I believe he
has several Shimada plants operating.


~~~~~~~~
Here are two questions for an experienced
densifier. 

1)  You quote 45 kW for 500 kg/hr as the power
requirement for wood.  100 kWh/ton seems to be  fundamental
requirement in pelletizing, cubing and loging.  This is because the solid
structure of wood requires this to break it down. 

However, there are many things which are already "broken
down".  In particular, I am thinking of sugar cane bagasse which has
already been crushed.  Would you expect such a material to require
significantly less power? 

2) Do you have comparative power requirement figures for

 
Pelletizing (1/4 in to 3/4 in)
Cubing (1 in to 1/5 in ?)
Logging and Hockey pucks ( 2in to 4 in?)

I see a great demand for all three types of densification as
the costs of fossil fuels rise.  But power consumption will also rise, so
this is not a trivial question. 

Yours truly,       
TOM
REED               

BEF

Dr. Thomas
Reed  The Biomass Energy Foundation 1810 Smith Rd., Golden, CO
80401303 278 0558; <A
href="mailto:tombreed@home.com">tombreed@home.com; <A
href="http://www.woodgas.com">www.woodgas.com

BEGIN:VCARD
VERSION:2.1
N:Reed;Thomas;B;Dr.
FN:Thomas B Reed
NICKNAME:Tom
ORG:Biomass Energy Foundation;Publication, Consulting, Engineering
TITLE:President
TEL;WORK;VOICE:303 278 0558
TEL;HOME;VOICE:303 278 0558
TEL;CELL;VOICE:303 913 2074
TEL;WORK;FAX:303 278 0558
TEL;HOME;FAX:303 278 0558
ADR;WORK:;;1810 Smith Rd.;Golden;CO;80401;USA
LABEL;WORK;ENCODING=QUOTED-PRINTABLE:1810 Smith Rd.=0D=0AGolden, CO 80401=0D=0AUSA
ADR;HOME;ENCODING=QUOTED-PRINTABLE:;;1810 Smith Rd=0D=0A=0D=0A;Golden;CO;80401;United States
LABEL;HOME;ENCODING=QUOTED-PRINTABLE:1810 Smith Rd=0D=0A=0D=0A=0D=0AGolden, CO 80401=0D=0AUnited States
X-WAB-GENDER:2
URL;HOME:http://www.woodgas.com
URL;WORK:http://www.woodgas.com
BDAY:20010315
EMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:tombreed@home.com
REV:20011102T120615Z
END:VCARD

 

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From tombreed at home.com Fri Nov 2 08:24:30 2001
From: tombreed at home.com (Thomas Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:15 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Riser Sleeve Rigidizing
Message-ID: <009201c1639d$bfd04fc0$18e5b618@lakwod3.co.home.com>

 

Dear All:

Riser sleeves (from foundries) are great for high temperature insulation,
but get very soft after heating >800 C. To avoid this, use "rigidizer".

Norb Senf and Dan Dimiduk asked ...
>
> No, the "rigigidizer" is colloidal silica (made from sodium silicate with
> the sodium washed out). Solid water glass (sodium silicate) has a very
low
> melting point, while silica is over 1500 C.
>
> The stuff is very expensive in small quantities, but should be inherently
> cheap.
>
> Yours, TOM REED
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Norbert Senf" <mheat@mha-net.org>
> To: <Carefreeland@aol.com>; <tombreed@home.com>; <stoves@crest.org>
> Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 5:42 AM
> Subject: Re: Refractories and Insulation
>
>
> > At 05:50 AM 2001-11-01 -0500, Carefreeland@aol.com wrote:
> > > Tom R.
> > > About those riser sleves. Is the "rigidisor" sodium silicate?
> (snip)
> >
> > I once bought a bucket of rigidizer from A.P. Green, and it was
zirconium.
> >
> > Best .... Norbert
> >
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------
> > Norbert Senf---------- mheat@mha-net.org-nospam
> > Masonry Stove Builders (remove -nospam)
> > RR 5, Shawville------- www.heatkit.com
> > Quebec J0X 2Y0-------- fax:-----819.647.6082
> > ---------------------- voice:---819.647.5092
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -
> > Stoves List Archives and Website:
> > http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
> > http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
> >
> > Stoves List Moderators:
> > Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
> > Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
> > Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
> >
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> >
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> > -
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> > http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml
> >
> > For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
> > http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm
> >
>

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From tombreed at home.com Fri Nov 2 08:49:19 2001
From: tombreed at home.com (Thomas Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:15 2004
Subject: Gas combustion principles...
In-Reply-To: <3BDF624C.D928457D@cybershamanix.com>
Message-ID: <00a201c163a1$2e0be320$18e5b618@lakwod3.co.home.com>

Dear Ron, Piet and All Biomass Enthusiasts:

We are cursed with using solid fuels of widely varying properties (density,
moisture content, shape, size, ...) which makes it difficult to generalize
about burning biomass. And if you succeed, all you get is heat! (Sure,
steam, power at low efficiency).

Fortunately, from all this biomass you can make (with air) "producer gas" or
"synthesis gas" (with oxygen) which is much easier to burn for heat, power
or chemical synthesis.

Producer gas from wood and biomass ("WoodGas") is much like the producer
gas, town gas, ... that our grandparents all used in their cook stoves and
lighting. The combustion of gas has been WELL UNDERSTOOD since 1900. Your
gas stove, propane camp stove, furnace, .... all work fine. If you don't
understand how gas burns, read on.

Peter's remarks on the Bunsen Burner are right on. I believe the mixing
distance of a "free jet" (of gas into aspirated air) is 5-10 diameters (of
the jet) and in the Bunsen burner the jet is typically < 1mm, so the 12 cm X
1 cm diameter tube gives plenty of room for mixing.

An even more interesting device is the Meeker burner. The flame is about 3
cm in diameter and composed of ~100 flamelets. By adjusting the air/fuel
ratio it can be made to burn from

very rich (tail flame primarily hot CO and H2)

to stoichiometric (CO2 and H2O only at ~2000 C)

to very lean (tail flame not so hot CO2 and H2O and O2)

By tinkering with the needle valve and gas pressure and air supply it can
be made to burn in the

normal cone
inverted cone
radiant burner mode (below the holes on the flashback screen)

I have one that I run on a propane cylinder on my dining room table right
now! I have published several papers on pyrolysis of wood in the flame.

I recommend buying both types of burners (Fisher Scientific) for your
self-edification in gas burning if you have any interest in WoodGas.

Yours truly, TOM REED BEF

tombreed@home.com; www.woodgas.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Larson" <ronallarson@qwest.net>
To: "Peter Verhaart" <pverhaart@optusnet.com.au>; <stoves@crest.org>
Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 11:33 PM
Subject: Re: Refractories and Insulation

> Stovers:
> I believe Peter would not mind my sending this reply on to the full
> list - and perhaps it was his intent to send his message to stoves as
well.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Peter Verhaart <pverhaart@optusnet.com.au>
> To: Ron Larson <ronallarson@qwest.net>
> Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 10:49 PM
> Subject: Re: Refractories and Insulation
>
>
> > At 07:34 31/10/01 -0700, you wrote:
> > >Harmon and stovers:
> > >
> > >
> > > (RWL):
> >
> > Snip
> >
> > > The cost was $4.00 per square foot (about $4
> > >per square meter).
> > Wouldn't that be $36/m2 ?
> >
> (RWL) I accept that my approximation was a little loose - but I
believe
> after reflection that you will agree the swing is the other way - to
> $43.06/m2. (1 sqft = .0929034 m2). Maybe some day (next century?) the US
> will start pricng goods in m2 and this problem will go away.
>
>
> >
> > > An example in addition to the ones Tom Reed recently mentioned is the
> > > Bunsen Burner. This works because
> > >the (laboratory) gas is under pressure so that a Venturi effect can
draw
> in
> > >the correct (controllable) amount of total air (no need to separate
into
> > >primary and secondary when the gas is totally combustable). Then
mixing
> > >occurs over a height of many diameters (6-10?) in what I remember, and
> the
> > >flame is a lovely blue color that we all want. I hope someone can tell
> of
> > >experiments or theory that says what that minimum height has to be for
> the
> > >laboratory-type Bunsen burner - that will help get at the question you
> are
> > >asking. I think Alex English may have studied this some.
> >
> > >
> > When we had so-called Town gas (from coal, containing much H2), which
has
> > an appreciable blow-off velocity (the gas velocity at which the flame
> blows
> > off the nozzle), the diameter of the chimney is such that the flame will
> > not be able to travel downward at the lowest setting.
> > With Natural or LP gas, the flame velocity is much lower. In burners for
> > these gases we find close to the nozzle a flow obstacle which offers an
> > abrubt widening of the diameter, leaving a dead-water region with low
> > circulation right after the obstacle where the burning gas-air mixture
can
> > burn while constantly reigniting the main flow. This is probably the
cause
> > of the noise ghese flemes make.
> >
> (RWL): Hmm. 1) I had not realized these attributes - but you have
> whetted my appetitie on learning more. Any good references on velocities
> and the reasons for widening and the noise associated. Any contribution
on
> the height needed for mixing?
>
> >
> > > In the Bunsen burner, that point is where one has a "screen".
There
> is
> > >something about flame propagation speed that dictates how small the
> screen
> > >pores must be to not have the flame propagate down the "Bunsen burner"
> > >mixing tube.
> >
> > It is more to prevent the blowing off, I think.
> >
> (RWL): We are way out of my element here. I guess you are saying
that
> the problem is not so much with flame fronts traveling back towards the
> source. Again, I'd appreciate some references.
>
> > >Because catalysis is important in flame ignition
> > >temperature, we should be asking something about materials as well -
> maybe
> > >even a sacrificial material (if low cost).
> >
> > Dennis Jaasma has done tests with a catalyst (from Dow-Corning if memory
> > serves) in the early eighties at Virginia State University.
> >
> (RWL) : Anyone able to add to this lead? Afraid I don't remember
seeing
> his name before - but "Jaasma" sounds like a possible graduate from
> Eindhoven?
>
> Piet - thanks for the added information. Ron
>
> > Piet
> >
> >
>
>
> -
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> http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
>
> Stoves List Moderators:
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> Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
> Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
>
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From tombreed at home.com Sat Nov 3 10:23:05 2001
From: tombreed at home.com (Thomas Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:15 2004
Subject: GAS-L: More on Bynsen, Meeker burners...
In-Reply-To: <3BDF624C.D928457D@cybershamanix.com>
Message-ID: <01b601c16475$8970b220$18e5b618@lakwod3.co.home.com>

Dear Andrew and All:

I forgot to mention that the Meeker burner has a nice stamped metal Venturi
mixing section you might like to study and copy.

Andrew said..

I think there is an element of diffusion in a bunsen burner flame
also, the hottest part, the bright blue, is premixed, the outer darker
blue is the diffusion flame. If I remember this correctly then the gas
flame is a two stage process. This is also demonstrated in an
oxy-acetylene burner where you control the fuel:air mix by maximising
the contrast between these zones.

Yes, there is an outer diffusion flame IF THE MIXTURE IS RICH. However, a
lean mixture will burn completely in the primary cone (about 0.1 mm thick).
The stoichiometric flame (correct oxygen) gives the highest temperature and
heat transfer.

The oxy-acetylene flame is one of the most interesting. Acetylene has a
very high positive heat of formation - 54 kcal/mole - and so can explode
spontaneously without access to oxygen according to...

C2H2 ==> 2 C (soot) + H2

The hottest flame is

C2H2 + O2 ==> 2 CO + H2 (+ 1/3 of it atomic H)

Since CO is an incredibly stable molecule (9ev dissociation) this flame has
a temperature of 3110C the highest common flame temperature.

The complete heat release occurs when

C2H2 + 5/2 O2 ==> 2 CO2 + H2O

This was all well known at the turn of the century and oxy-acetylene welding
was king until electric arc welding took over.

Your fire-freak...... TOM REED
Dr. Thomas Reed
The Biomass Energy Foundation
1810 Smith Rd., Golden, CO 80401
303 278 0558;
tombreed@home.com; www.woodgas.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "AJH" <andrew.heggie@dtn.ntl.com>
To: <stoves@crest.org>
Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 9:46 AM
Subject: Re: Refractories and Insulation

On Wed, 31 Oct 2001 07:34:12 -0700, "Ron Larson"
<ronallarson@qwest.net> wrote:

>
>
> Now if one wishes, one can concentrate on premixing the air - and this
>is the approach of Tom Reed and some others. An example in addition to the
>ones Tom Reed recently mentioned is the Bunsen Burner. This works because
>the (laboratory) gas is under pressure so that a Venturi effect can draw in
>the correct (controllable) amount of total air (no need to separate into
>primary and secondary when the gas is totally combustable).

I think the bunsen burner is an eductor or aspirator rather than a
venturi, it is a kinetic energy driven device rather than a velocity
change creating "lift".

> Then mixing
>occurs over a height of many diameters (6-10?) in what I remember, and the
>flame is a lovely blue color that we all want.

I think there is an element of diffusion in a bunsen burner flame
also, the hottest part, the bright blue, is premixed, the outer darker
blue is the diffusion flame. If I remember this correctly then the gas
flame is a two stage process. This is also demonstrated in an
oxy-acetylene burner where you control the fuel:air mix by maximising
the contrast between these zones.

> I hope someone can tell of
>experiments or theory that says what that minimum height has to be for the
>laboratory-type Bunsen burner - that will help get at the question you are
>asking. I think Alex English may have studied this some. A lot must have
>to do also with the turbulence that one can achieve when the air and gas
>first start mixing and the angle at which the two flows meet and progress
up
>to the point wher the flame begins.

This height is presumably to allow mixing, it could be of any length
but then more prone to blowback, the thing that attaches the flame to
the top of the burner is to do with the velocity of the pre-mixed
products and the flame speed of the mixture.
>
> In the Bunsen burner, that point is where one has a "screen". There is
>something about flame propagation speed that dictates how small the screen
>pores must be to not have the flame propagate down the "Bunsen burner"
>mixing tube. I hope someone on the list can point us to that literature -
>it could help answer something about mixing. (The reason for thinking all
>this through well is that we want to keep the excess air down so as to keep
>the temperatures and therefore the efficiency high.)

I do not recall these screens, are you perhaps referring to the gauze
experiment where it can be shown the gauze conducts heat away from the
flame sufficient to prevent combustion, the principle on which the
Davey safety lamp works?

<snip>

> The flame will be much shorter when using premixed air, but one still
>has the height problem to accomplish the premixing. This is partially
>compensated by having this "mixing height" operate at a (much) lower
>temperature, so losses are less. But one has to pay for the blower and
>energy source to achieve the pre-mixing (Venturi or Koanda effect or
>wahtever). So far no one has offered a low cost method of doing the
>premixing without an external power source. Even if one had such an
>approach, one probably would have some operating difficulties (getting lit
>one way and then switching over?) This is a great challenge for everyone
on
>the list!! (Which remind me that I started some conversations with Andrew
>Heggie about alternatives to electricity for supplying higher pressure air.
>Andrew reminded me that the "brake" for spring wound toys is a "blower".)

Well I offered several possibilities, the clockwork or falling weight
one is to what you refer, I would not use the term brake, rather
"govern", my thought was that as power consumption of the fan is
related to the cube of the air velocity that the blower itself would
govern its speed within narrow limits (rather than need an
escapement), this governed speed could then also control the fuel
metering device, still a lot more complicated than natural draft.
Incidentally when considering even modest electric power like 3 watts
we will need to generate much more than this to store in a battery,
the best thing about this is the abundance of electronically com
mutated fans available from PCs.

>
> We also should be talking at the same time of ways to maintain a high
>temperature internally to assist in auto ignition - as you have implied in
>your question. Because catalysis is important in flame ignition
>temperature, we should be asking something about materials as well - maybe
>even a sacrificial material (if low cost). There has been zero discussion
>on this list about this topic. (note that the early movie projectors used
>lime ("limelight") where the gas flame hit in order to get an intense white
>light.

This was incandescence, not a catalytic effect, interesting in the
thermal-photo-voltaic scenario though, these gallenium arsenide
devices are reputedly 10 times more effective than Joule effect
devices so I can visualise a ring of incandescent material surrounded
by 3 Watts worth of these powering the blower, the semiconductor being
cooled by the secondary air flow from the blower.

AJH

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From dstill at epud.net Sat Nov 3 13:30:57 2001
From: dstill at epud.net (Dean Still)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:15 2004
Subject: ETHOS
Message-ID: <005601c16453$61a5bf00$3c15210c@default>

Dear Friends,

Glad to see the Stoves list back in high gear. Thought I'd share a couple of
things that relate to stoves.

For three years Dr. Mark Bryden has been working with staff at Aprovecho. A
graduate student from Iowa State U spent a summer at Aprovecho doing a study
of the diameter and height and efficiency of the Rocket stove combustion
chamber. Matt Hagge, another ISU grad student is now helping us to set up
Grant Ballard Tremeer's experiment to analyze emissions from stoves. Mark is
getting some good data in another experiment at ISU to determine how the
heat from a fire effects the cooking pot. Mark has been a huge help on the
theory side and Aprovecho has helped to give him and his students some field
experience.

This last year, faculty and Mech. Eng. students from Dayton U have joined
Aprovecho and ISU in studying how to improve vernacular cooking stoves.
Dayton U students will also be heading down to Central America to help with
stove projects both doing research and building stoves. Dr Steve Benintendi
is working with Dayton U students to model and parametrically analyze the
heat transfer in a stove in an effort to theoretically determine which
design parameters most significantly affect the stove's operation. Dr
Margaret Pinnell is trying to characterize the thermal and mechanical
properties of various bricks (the Aprovecho homemade insulative ceramic-
Adobe, Baldosa and Commercial). They are doing thermal conductivity,
porosity (apparent and using image analysis), crushing strength, thermal
shock, etc. The class is aiming at finishing all testing by semester end so
that they can make a presentation in January. Dr Kevin Hallinan is the
Department Chairperson. He has initiated our working together and directs
the research and internships. We plan to do new research each semester.

At the same time, Dr Tami Bond with NOAA and Dr Anand Cousins from Seattle U
have been contributing to our efforts at collaboration. We have formed a
loose organization whose goal is to improve wood stoves and other
appropriate technologies for the families using them. It's called ETHOS:
Engineers in Technical Humanitarian Opportunities of Service. ETHOS
currently connects Aprovecho, Trees, Water, People, HELPS International,
ISU, Dayton U, and Seattle U. We hope to travel faster together, to use
scientific endeavor to directly help biomass users. The goal is to provide
a link between research and practice: as we learn how to make better stoves,
Aprovecho and its partner in dissemination,Trees, Water, People, and HELPS
International can help to pass this understanding on to cooks in Central
America (and around the world).

As results happen, we'll post them here.

Best,

Dean

 

 

 

 

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From andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com Sun Nov 4 07:25:40 2001
From: andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com (AJH)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:15 2004
Subject: More on Bynsen, Meeker burners...
In-Reply-To: <3BDF624C.D928457D@cybershamanix.com>
Message-ID: <ub8autom5neggn6niv703drofmt5mjvgld@4ax.com>

Xpost cut as my interest is in the possibilities of using entrainment
devices in IDD cookstoves.

On Sat, 3 Nov 2001 07:40:51 -0700, "Thomas Reed" <tombreed@home.com>
wrote:

>Dear Andrew and All:
>
>I forgot to mention that the Meeker burner has a nice stamped metal Venturi
>mixing section you might like to study and copy.

I have not seen a Meeker burner, that the venturi is formed in a
stamping is interesting as IME this technology is within the grasp of
fairly rudimentary blacksmithing tools. I know a Coanda burner can be
hand made from steel pressings, as it works on a fluidics, surface
hugging, effect dimensions do not seem as critical as other
aspirators.

I did find reference to a poster session where a coal fired Meeker
burner was mentioned.

>
>Yes, there is an outer diffusion flame IF THE MIXTURE IS RICH. However, a
>lean mixture will burn completely in the primary cone (about 0.1 mm thick).
>The stoichiometric flame (correct oxygen) gives the highest temperature and
>heat transfer.

My memories of a bunsen burner are back in the days of "town" gas,
however I do use a propane torch and this does exhibit the inner and
outer cones, as the pressure is fixed and there is no means of varying
mixture I assumed it was set to a stoichiometric mix.

<snipped interesting oxy acetylene chemistry>

>This was all well known at the turn of the century and oxy-acetylene welding
>was king until electric arc welding took over.

Which reinforces the point that the "rules" are well known, the art is
in the application, the only new things I can see that modern
technology can bring to the table is cheap control via semi-condutor
devices, and this is a long way off for many people.

Whilst I have been happily playing with the Coanda burner and mooting
the possibility of using steam to power it I now see this too is
already in use in oil wells. The device is called a stedair burner.
http://www.kaldair.com/stedair_page.htm

Now this requires steam at 3 atmospheres, which I am not comfortable
with in a domestic situation, it does prove the possibilities however.
I can envisage a single helical coil containing a low mass of water
just below the cook pot, this then feeding steam to the Coanda nozzle
forming the secondary burner and cook pot support.

>Your fire-freak...... TOM REED

Pyromaniacally yours ;-)
AJH

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From lanny at roman.net Sun Nov 4 20:19:54 2001
From: lanny at roman.net (Lanny Henson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:15 2004
Subject: Heat Capturing Grate
Message-ID: <021d01c16597$c7108420$d1ba3cd0@default>

 

Heat-Capturing Grate.
So if one of the biggest loses of efficiency in a cook stove is in the
transfer of heat to the pot how about a heat-capturing grate? This grate would
capture some of the heat that would be lost and conduct it back to the cooking
pot or griddle. This grate would also improve convection by increasing the time
that the hot gas spends on the bottom of the pot or griddle.
Here is how it would work, heat from the burner/ fire is directed to the
center of the grate and the center of the pot. From the center of the pot the
hot gas travels in a path along the bottom of the pot which increases the time
that the hot gas contacts the bottom of the pot. The grate would have a small
surface area and low thermal mass in the center so as not to rob the heat
intended for the pot. As the grate gets larger toward the outside of the pot and
the hot gas gets closer to the exit, the surface area and the thermal mass of
the grate would increase to capture more heat. The pot would have first priority
to the convection heat but some of the heat not conducted to the pot from the
hot gas would be captured by the grate in a way that it can be conducted back to
the pot through direct contact. This heat captured by the grate could be
conducted back to the bottom of the pot for hours after the fire is out to
simmer or hold (160degF) food. The grate would be insulated and thermally
isolated from the stove body so the only way out for the heat is up to the
griddle or pot. There would be some losses. Straight conduction to the pot from
the grate should be very efficient heat transfer.
What do you think? Why will this not work?
Lanny

From ronallarson at qwest.net Mon Nov 5 08:09:56 2001
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:15 2004
Subject: Heat Capturing Grate
In-Reply-To: <021d01c16597$c7108420$d1ba3cd0@default>
Message-ID: <009201c165fb$67937c00$9ff76641@computer>

 

Lanny (cc stovers):

We have had a mention of this
from time to time.  However, I do not remember anyone giving any
experimental results of how they have been able to improve efficiency by
following the ideas you give below.  I sure hope you can do a little more
research and report back. 

I think there is a role here for
modeling -  undoubtedly, there has been a lot of other similar work in
parallel fields.  The financial support for stoves research has been so
small that we will have to look in other applications of heat transfer for good
ideas like this.  I will make the same observation in a reply to
Andrew Heggie's recent note on the Coanda effect.

Both the Rocket stoves and the
natural draft charcoal making stoves have a substantial combustion chamber
height.  I think the conduction material could occupy a large part of that
height.  Dean Still recently wrote about the improved draft available with
a closed interior cylinder (4 inch inside a 6 inch).  Perhaps all of that
could be used for heat conduction to the cook pot.  Perhaps this interior
heat capture metal "grate" could do something to also add turbulence - so as to
get better air-fuel mixing.

Remember also that you can still
get heat transfer along the pot sides - so this is not either/or. The message
there is that lots of height is important.  I think your "grate" will need
height as well.

You are the only one I remember
talking about fiberglass ropes.  Could you report more on the costs and
where you are purchasing those ropes.  Would they be a good enough thermal
insulator to support your improved thermal-conduction grate?

Thanks for your
input.

Ron
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
----- Original Message -----
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black">From:
Lanny Henson
To: <A href="mailto:stoves@crest.org"
title=stoves@crest.org>stoves@crest.org
Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2001 6:16
PM
Subject: Heat Capturing Grate


Heat-Capturing Grate.
So if one of the biggest loses of efficiency in a cook stove is in the
transfer of heat to the pot how about a heat-capturing grate? This grate would
capture some of the heat that would be lost and conduct it back to the cooking
pot or griddle. This grate would also improve convection by increasing the
time that the hot gas spends on the bottom of the pot or griddle.
Here is how it would work, heat from the burner/ fire is directed to the
center of the grate and the center of the pot. From the center of the pot the
hot gas travels in a path along the bottom of the pot which increases the time
that the hot gas contacts the bottom of the pot. The grate would have a small
surface area and low thermal mass in the center so as not to rob the heat
intended for the pot. As the grate gets larger toward the outside of the pot
and the hot gas gets closer to the exit, the surface area and the thermal mass
of the grate would increase to capture more heat. The pot would have first
priority to the convection heat but some of the heat not conducted to the pot
from the hot gas would be captured by the grate in a way that it can be
conducted back to the pot through direct contact. This heat captured by the
grate could be conducted back to the bottom of the pot for hours after the
fire is out to simmer or hold (160degF) food. The grate would be insulated and
thermally isolated from the stove body so the only way out for the heat is up
to the griddle or pot. There would be some losses. Straight conduction to the
pot from the grate should be very efficient heat transfer.
What do you think? Why will this not work?
Lanny

From ronallarson at qwest.net Mon Nov 5 09:52:49 2001
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:15 2004
Subject: On Coanda effect
In-Reply-To: <3BDF624C.D928457D@cybershamanix.com>
Message-ID: <013e01c16609$b8ffdf80$9ff76641@computer>

Andrew and Stovers

(See next message for some notes about Andrew based on our visit in
mid-October)

Yesterday, you wrote:

<SNIP, but want to come back to the Reed/AJH material on the Meeker
burner)>

>Whilst I have been happily playing with the Coanda burner and mooting
>the possibility of using steam to power it I now see this too is
>already in use in oil wells. The device is called a stedair burner.
>http://www.kaldair.com/stedair_page.htm

(rwl): I visited that site and found it quite fascinating. For others,
I should report that Kaldair seems to be a firm dealing mainly with flaring
natural gas (sometimes with liquids). They seem to be British and have
gotten their start from work done in this area by BP (British Petroleum).
The Kaldair site gives good background on the Coanda effect (which I won't
try to repeat, but recommend for some who may be interested following these
added questions).

My questions:

1. The other products besides the "Stedair" seem to have promise for
cooking application as well. What was your reason for concentrating on the
"stedair"?

2. This company obviously is very skilled in gas combustion. How far
are they (located in Berks) from your own town?
Have you had any direct dealings with them? The one article on the subject
is written by a fellow in Houston, Texas. Is that the better location to
find burner technical expertise?

3. They seem to have settled on the Coanda effect because it is very
effective in promoting turbulence, entrainment, and mixing - all of which we
want to understand and control for stove improvement as well. However, they
always (??) seem to want a huge amount of extra air - and they are not using
the heat in the flare at all - just trying for clean combustion. They also
seem always to have the gas under pressure. Question - their literature
talked also about natural convection - but none of their products seemed to
have that feature. Do you think we could get adequate effects (such as exc
ess air closer to zero) with natural convection? Is there any way to
control the excess air, if you are dealling only with natural convection?

4. I especially liked what they said about the Azdair unit, which talks
about thin flames - produced from small holes and gas impinging upon a solid
sheet. I have ordered their technical literature and when received, will
probably have more questions.

Andrew also said:

>Now this requires steam at 3 atmospheres, which I am not comfortable
>within a domestic situation, it does prove the possibilities however.
>I can envisage a single helical coil containing a low mass of water
>just below the cook pot, this then feeding steam to the Coanda nozzle
>forming the secondary burner and cook pot support.

(RWL):
This is a very interesting aspect. I tend to agree with you that adding
steam features looks like it is getting too complicated. But I am very
impressed by what you did with steam drying of green wood. Please keep us
informed whenever you decide that steam may have advantages with simple cook
stoves. (Andrew and I also talked about various means of getting fan/blower
power for simple stoves - one possibility being from steam)

Thanks again. Ron

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From ronallarson at qwest.net Mon Nov 5 09:53:30 2001
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:15 2004
Subject: London-#2: Andrew Heggie
Message-ID: <014201c16609$cc2fad60$9ff76641@computer>

 

Stovers:

A few notes about list member
Andrew Heggie and the type of "stoves" work he is doing.   I should
have sent this several weeks ago, when the information was fresh - but still
pertinent, as Andrew has been adding a lot of valuable information to "stoves"
recently including that on the Coanda effect.

1.  Andrew is about 50 - two adult children
and one grandchild.  Very fit from outdoor life as nurseryman -
forester.  Reminds me a lot of Alex English - knowledgeable about lots of
combustion areas.  Has special interest (and lots of self-taught knowledge)
in charcoal production - with main goal of cost effective rapid drying of wood
so charcoal can be produced from waste woods (England has essentially stopped
production of lumber, so they (like the US, because of fire suppression) are
developing too much wood.

2.  After picking us up from the RR station,
we had coffee and I began learning charcoal making from Andrew's
perspective.  He has been doing a lot of testing with top-lighting - and
his work is very good.  He works both in his backyard and, for larger
projects, in a nursery area.

3.   We saw some backyard equipment
and photos - then went for a Ploughman's
lunch (cheese, hard bread, and draft).  Andrew lives in a very pleasant
quiet village about an hour south of London by train.  We saw the
school which has seen four generations from his family..

4.  We spent most of the afternoon at his
larger "lab" - seeing a demonstration of a half-scale steam dryer - Andrew's own
invention - and very impressive.   Needs power, but not much - is
intended for drying in remote areas.  The drying, done in a few hours, was
impressive.

5.  Also saw an interesting Incinerator that
Andrew is developing.  Andrew can do all these well as he is a good welder,
etc..

6.  After leaving that lab, we successfully
tried some top-down natural-draft "coking" of coal - as Andrew reported a while
back.  Lots of experimentation still needed to get the right amount of
draft - but encouraging first results.

7.   We had a dinner of the famous
British "Fish and chips" - the real thing and the best I have ever had -
obtained from a small take-out store down the road.

Summary - I strongly recommend Andrew for
anyone looking for a great combination of (self-taught) technical expertise on
combustion and a real world ability to make things work.  It appears he has
been doing almost all of his development work on his own - no salary.  He
also is a very pleasant person to be around and has a lovely family (met wife
also, but only met one daughter, who soon is being transferred to very
responsible job in Boston)..

Andrew - thanks for being such a great host. 
I wish you lived closer, so I could benefit more often from your willingness to
look at new ideas.

From tombreed at home.com Mon Nov 5 10:38:31 2001
From: tombreed at home.com (Thomas Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:15 2004
Subject: On Coanda effect
In-Reply-To: <3BDF624C.D928457D@cybershamanix.com>
Message-ID: <001b01c1660f$b1063080$18e5b618@lakwod3.co.home.com>

Dear All:

Very interesting and I am sure many of us will try using the Coanda effect
for mixing and combustion.

See also

http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/coanda.htm

for explanation and videos of the effect....

Yours, TOM REED
Dr. Thomas Reed
The Biomass Energy Foundation
1810 Smith Rd., Golden, CO 80401
303 278 0558;
tombreed@home.com; www.woodgas.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Larson" <ronallarson@qwest.net>
To: "AJH" <andrew.heggie@dtn.ntl.com>; <Stoves@crest.org>
Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 7:54 AM
Subject: On Coanda effect

> Andrew and Stovers
>
> (See next message for some notes about Andrew based on our visit in
> mid-October)
>
> Yesterday, you wrote:
>
> <SNIP, but want to come back to the Reed/AJH material on the Meeker
> burner)>
>
> >Whilst I have been happily playing with the Coanda burner and mooting
> >the possibility of using steam to power it I now see this too is
> >already in use in oil wells. The device is called a stedair burner.
> >http://www.kaldair.com/stedair_page.htm
>
> (rwl): I visited that site and found it quite fascinating. For
others,
> I should report that Kaldair seems to be a firm dealing mainly with
flaring
> natural gas (sometimes with liquids). They seem to be British and have
> gotten their start from work done in this area by BP (British Petroleum).
> The Kaldair site gives good background on the Coanda effect (which I won't
> try to repeat, but recommend for some who may be interested following
these
> added questions).
>
> My questions:
>
> 1. The other products besides the "Stedair" seem to have promise for
> cooking application as well. What was your reason for concentrating on
the
> "stedair"?
>
> 2. This company obviously is very skilled in gas combustion. How
far
> are they (located in Berks) from your own town?
> Have you had any direct dealings with them? The one article on the
subject
> is written by a fellow in Houston, Texas. Is that the better location to
> find burner technical expertise?
>
> 3. They seem to have settled on the Coanda effect because it is very
> effective in promoting turbulence, entrainment, and mixing - all of which
we
> want to understand and control for stove improvement as well. However,
they
> always (??) seem to want a huge amount of extra air - and they are not
using
> the heat in the flare at all - just trying for clean combustion. They also
> seem always to have the gas under pressure. Question - their literature
> talked also about natural convection - but none of their products seemed
to
> have that feature. Do you think we could get adequate effects (such as
exc
> ess air closer to zero) with natural convection? Is there any way to
> control the excess air, if you are dealling only with natural convection?
>
> 4. I especially liked what they said about the Azdair unit, which
talks
> about thin flames - produced from small holes and gas impinging upon a
solid
> sheet. I have ordered their technical literature and when received, will
> probably have more questions.
>
>
> Andrew also said:
>
> >Now this requires steam at 3 atmospheres, which I am not comfortable
> >within a domestic situation, it does prove the possibilities however.
> >I can envisage a single helical coil containing a low mass of water
> >just below the cook pot, this then feeding steam to the Coanda nozzle
> >forming the secondary burner and cook pot support.
>
> (RWL):
> This is a very interesting aspect. I tend to agree with you that
adding
> steam features looks like it is getting too complicated. But I am very
> impressed by what you did with steam drying of green wood. Please keep us
> informed whenever you decide that steam may have advantages with simple
cook
> stoves. (Andrew and I also talked about various means of getting
fan/blower
> power for simple stoves - one possibility being from steam)
>
> Thanks again. Ron
>
>
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From tami.bond at noaa.gov Mon Nov 5 11:42:51 2001
From: tami.bond at noaa.gov (Tami Bond)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:16 2004
Subject: Heat Capturing Grate
In-Reply-To: <021d01c16597$c7108420$d1ba3cd0@default>
Message-ID: <3BE6C0FD.425C3EE@noaa.gov>

 

Dear Lanny,

This is similar to something I have thought, although I have nowhere
near the expertise of others on this list.

My idea is a little different: capturing heat from exhaust as in "heat
checkers" used in industrial preheat, sending heat back to pot and also
using the "checker" setup as a hot zone to help burnout of particles and
other pollutants. We need to get the heat to the pot, BUT we also need
to use the heat, while we have it, to get rid of the nasty stuff in the
exhaust. Dean's annular chamber might do enough of the trick.

I was thinking ceramic, but maybe steel would work. Both might be too
hard to manufacture and too expensive for the people who really need it.

Like your pictures. Keep up the good work.

Tami

> Lanny Henson wrote:
>
> Heat-Capturing Grate.
>
> So if one of the biggest loses of efficiency in a cook stove is in the
> transfer of heat to the pot how about a heat-capturing grate? This
> grate would capture some of the heat that would be lost and conduct it
> back to the cooking pot or griddle. This grate would also improve
> convection by increasing the time that the hot gas spends on the
> bottom of the pot or griddle.
>
> Here is how it would work, heat from the burner/ fire is directed to
> the center of the grate and the center of the pot. From the center of
> the pot the hot gas travels in a path along the bottom of the pot
> which increases the time that the hot gas contacts the bottom of the
> pot. The grate would have a small surface area and low thermal mass in
> the center so as not to rob the heat intended for the pot. As the
> grate gets larger toward the outside of the pot and the hot gas gets
> closer to the exit, the surface area and the thermal mass of the grate
> would increase to capture more heat. The pot would have first priority
> to the convection heat but some of the heat not conducted to the pot
> from the hot gas would be captured by the grate in a way that it can
> be conducted back to the pot through direct contact. This heat
> captured by the grate could be conducted back to the bottom of the pot
> for hours after the fire is out to simmer or hold (160degF) food. The
> grate would be insulated and thermally isolated from the stove body so
> the only way out for the heat is up to the griddle or pot. There would
> be some losses. Straight conduction to the pot from the grate should
> be very efficient heat transfer.
>
> What do you think? Why will this not work?
>
> Lanny

--
* --- * --- * --- * --- * --- * --- * --- * --- * --- * --- * --- *
Tami Bond tami.bond@noaa.gov
Postdoctoral Fellow (206) 526-4420
NOAA - PMEL Fax (206) 526-6744
7600 Sand Point Way NE
Seattle, WA 98115

"The universe is made of stories, not atoms." --Muriel Rukeyser
* --- * --- * --- * --- * --- * --- * --- * --- * --- * --- * --- *

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From psanders at ilstu.edu Tue Nov 6 09:58:37 2001
From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:16 2004
Subject: Kilns for cane leaves in India
In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20011030091833.01a49190@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20011106081942.01a6f100@mail.ilstu.edu>

AD,

To all Stovers: AD and I have covered some of the basics in off-line
discussions, but I feel it is time to put it all back onto the Stoves
listserve. If you are NOT interested in the topic of making char from cane
leaves in India, please IGNORE all messages about this topic. We intend
to be VERY specific, and we are placing the messages on the Stoves list
JUST IN CASE some of you might be interested. (Note: ELK and Richard
Stanley are mentioned in this message, so it does relate to their work.)

AD's message (not previously placed on the Stoves listserve) has been moved
to here, and then my response is placed at the end.

At 02:54 PM 11/4/01 +0530, AD Karve wrote:
>Dear Paul,
>inquiries made in the local market revealed that ready made stainless steel
>barrels were available for about Rs. 400 each, (US$ 8), whereas the mild
>steel ones, which would have to be specially fabricated for us, would cost
>us about Rs. 300 (US$6) each. Our latest model of the kiln takes 9 barrels
>at a time. The operator needs two sets of barrels, so that while one set is
>being heated in the kiln, the second is kept ready with trash to be charred.
>In this way, he does not lose time (and heat) between batches. Thus, we need
>Rs. 7,200 for the stainless steel retorts and Rs. 5,400 for the mild steel
>retorts. All other costs are the same. Thus our revised cost estimate is
>about 200 Dollars for a kiln with stainless steel retorts and about US$ 180
>for a system having mild steel retorts.
>The question often asked to us is why we were opting for a small manual
>operation, when large scale systems producing even 100 tonnes of char per
>day were available. Our answer to this question is, that the large scale
>operation was not profitable. Agrowaste is diffused all over the
>countryside. We have ourselves seen, how costly it is to transport it from
>the field to a central processing factory. In a small scale operation, it
>becomes possible to itransport the processing machinery to the place where
>the agrowaste is available. Also, one needs only unskilled labour to help
>the operator, and because the operator takes the profit from this business,
>he does not take a salary for himself. Therefore the overheads are less and
>therefore the system can generate a profit.
>I asked our local bank about the best way to send money but they could not
>tell me anything concrete. I shall have to go to the head office, where they
>know more about foreign currency transactions.
>I am leaving for Delhi today and shall return in the evening of the 9th. We
>can resume our dialogue after the 9th of November.
>Yours A.D.Karve

Paul writes:
I am in agreement, and we will proceed.

I was under the impression that you had done more experimentation or had
some prior field trials away from your laboratory. So, that only means
that my involvement is coming in at a much earlier stage than I
thought. Which is fine. And that also means there is more room for
experimentation, and that there is MUCH MORE need for documentation of our
experiences. ALL aspects of our experiences, from expenditures to time to
acceptance by the people to post-processing of the char, etc, etc.

I am looking forward to this. But please re-confirm to me your own
commitment to doing what is needed, or to finding others who can do the
needed work on the ground in India. Perhaps more post-graduate student
labor is needed, as in "agricultural economics" etc that are fields beyond
the Karve specialties of physics and stoves and combustion. And ARTI is
involved in MANY diverse projects, so your attention must be spread over
several areas. (Same is true for me.) So, assistance is crucial. Perhaps
a small "focus group" or "team" for the project.

ALL numbers and opinions in science are subject to verification and
re-varification. And that applies to your earlier figures about the volume
of char that can be produced, and the financial cash-flow of tens of
millions of dollars.

So, please keep sending me more and more information, about the project and
about you and your wishes.

We truly do NEED a Rotary contact or two in your area!!!!!!!! HIGH
PRIORITY !!!!!!! We need one on e-mail who will be interested in
following along with the project. Soon we will have a project description,
which you can help distribute to the Rotarians in your area to help find
the right person or persons.

Concerning making briquettes out of the char, there are at least TWO
important additional ideas.

1. ELK in Kenya (Chardust, Inc) has a hand operated "extruder" of
compressed char. Have you seen the picture?

2. The "Legacy Foundation" (Richard Stanley) concept of briquettes is
EASY. I am doing it already in Mozambique. For India, char mixed with
fibrous binder, (that could be made from composted cane leaves! ) could be
made into briquettes at the field location. We would need to find the
acceptable sizes of briquettes for Indian use. But that is just part of
the "game".

Have a good trip.

Paul

>----- Original Message -----
>From: Paul S. Anderson <psanders@ilstu.edu>
>To: A.D. Karve <adkarve@pn2.vsnl.net.in>
>Cc: <karve@wmi.co.in>; Nick Nayak <nicholasnayak@aol.com>
>Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 12:27 AM
>Subject: Re: Kilns for cane leaves in India
>
>
> > AD,
> >
> > My bank here would charge US$50.00 for a wire transfer to an international
> > destination, regardless of the amount being sent.
> >
> > If I sent the amount to a bank account inside the USA (example, an USA
> > account in New York of a non-USA bank), then the charge is only
> > $15.00. I await the information you will get from your bank.
> >
> > Your wrote:
> > >It is our experience that the mild steel drums corrode very fast. I
>have
> > >absolutely no experience with stainless steel.
> >
> > I would like to get some quantitative data about the above topic. "Very
> > fast" refers to about how long? And also the cost aspects.
> >
> > Do we have a student worker or assistant to whom you can give some routine
> > tasks? (I am concerned about asking too much of YOUR time.) I would like
> > to have a complete list of all materials (every bucket, barrel, rake,
> > basket, etc) that a person needs to use the method of char
> > production. What is the life span of each item? What is the cost? And
> > what are the alternatives?
> >
> > Also, I do not have a strong understanding of the "in-the-field" processes
> > that the worker must do. For example,
> >
> > how many hectares per ton of final char?
> >
> > How far must the worker travel to bring the leaves to the kiln?
> >
> > Or can the kiln be easily moved?
> >
> > Who owns the land, and who gives permission to collect the leaves?
> >
> > How will we process the char that is to be purchased? Costs, and
> > selling prices for what kinds of charcoal briquette products?
> >
> > Also, I again mention the importance of making contact with several of the
> > local Rotary Clubs. I encourage you to explore the situation of Rotary
>in
> > your area.
> >
> > Looking forward to your reply.
> >
> > Paul
> >
> > At 11:08 PM 11/1/01 +0530, A.D. Karve wrote:
> > >Dear Paul,
> > >My aquaintance in Maryland declined to bring dollars with him to India.
>He
> > >said that one was allowed to bring only $2000 cash into India. This is
>of
> > >course not true. If you brought more than $2000 with you in cash, you
>have
> > >to fill out a form at the airport, stating the amount that you were
> > >carrying. This declaration is officially recorded and and you get a
>stamped
> > >copy of it. Whenever you change dollars into Indian currency, the
> > >respective bank records the transaction on this document. When you leave
> > >India, this document shows that you were not smuggling foreign currency
>out
> > >of India, but that you were taking out your own unspent dollars.
> > > Obviously, he has his own reasons for not carrying too much cash with
>him,
> > >and I did not argue with him. We have received dollars in the past by
> > >cheque.
> > > The bank deducts some amount as service charge, but the process
> > > is very slow, taking more than a month before the
> > >money is ultimately paid into your account. Nowdays it is possible to
> > >transfer money electronically and you get the money within about
> > >a week. I shall ask my bank about it and if the charges are not too
>high,
> > >you may transfer the money electronically for the kilns as well as for
>the
> > >archives work that Priya is doing for the stovers. The service charges
>are
> > >proportionately lower, the larger the amount that is transfered. I shall
>let
> > >you know what my bank says.
> > >Comparing stainless steel retorts with ordinary steel ones is a good
> > >suggestion.
> > > I have asked my colleagues to buy one set of stainless steel drums and
> > >another set of mild steel drums and start the experiments right now. It
>is
> > >our experience that the mild steel drums corrode very fast. I have
> > >absolutely no experience with stainless steel. The idea of stainless
>steel
> > >was suggested to us by Paul Hait of Pyromid
> > >Yours A.D.Karve
> > [[[prior messages have been deleted]]]
> >
> >
> > Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
> > Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
> > Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
> > E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders
> >
> >

Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders

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From andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com Tue Nov 6 12:58:29 2001
From: andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com (AJH)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:16 2004
Subject: London-#2: Andrew Heggie
In-Reply-To: <014201c16609$cc2fad60$9ff76641@computer>
Message-ID: <tq4gutg4e0h97kf8b9kccvu9fqrsun9at0@4ax.com>

On Mon, 5 Nov 2001 07:54:39 -0700, "Ron Larson"
<ronallarson@qwest.net> wrote:

>
> A few notes about list member Andrew Heggie and the type of "stoves" work he is doing.
Crikey Ronal, I'm still blushing!
>
>1. Andrew is about 50 - two adult children and one grandchild. Very fit from outdoor life as nurseryman - forester. Reminds me a lot of Alex English - knowledgeable about lots of combustion areas. Has special interest (and lots of self-taught knowledge) in charcoal production - with main goal of cost effective rapid drying of wood so charcoal can be produced from waste woods (England has essentially stopped production of lumber, so they (like the US, because of fire suppression) are developing too much wood.

If I can just clarify a couple of points, the recently planted forests
of UK are producing more timber than ever, it is the woods I work in
that have problems in marketing produce. Forestry pays on the large
scale where modern harvesting machines can be deployed, these severely
undercut the harvesting rates of traditional methods. Also the
machines typically displace 15+ motor manual workers.

>4. We spent most of the afternoon at his larger "lab" - seeing a demonstration of a half-scale steam dryer - Andrew's own invention - and very impressive. Needs power, but not much - is intended for drying in remote areas. The drying, done in a few hours, was impressive.

Whilst I decided on the concept independently, via a lateral route,
the technique has been well understood and employed in industry. The
little demonstrator I have was built by my collaborators.
>
>5. Also saw an interesting Incinerator that Andrew is developing. Andrew can do all these well as he is a good welder, etc..

Well I can stick bits of metal together, my colleagues refuse to allow
me to show my "heath Robinson" devices to their customers :-(.

>Summary - I strongly recommend Andrew for anyone looking for a great combination of (self-taught) technical expertise on combustion and a real world ability to make things work. It appears he has been doing almost all of his development work on his own - no salary.

Well being self taught is not to be recommended, I blew my chances of
further education when I was 19. I do often lose enthusiasm because of
lack of funds for developing ideas and whilst other bodies seem to
fritter opportunities away, we shall get there in the end.

>Andrew - thanks for being such a great host.

My pleasure, I thoroughly enjoyed myself.
AJH

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From andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com Tue Nov 6 12:59:15 2001
From: andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com (AJH)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:16 2004
Subject: Gasifier casting furnace
In-Reply-To: <3BE41774.FFA3D4B3@home.com>
Message-ID: <se7gut82vpskf945buavj3ohrq5k2pksd1@4ax.com>

On Mon, 5 Nov 2001 06:08:24 -0700, "Thomas Reed" <tombreed@home.com>
wrote:

>Dear All:
>
>I have been sitting on this too long...

Better late than never, it looks fantastic, anyone up for further
discussion on this?

The ejector is crude, how efficient can we get one to be? Obviously
there is scope for a coanda nozzle here but again this needs high
pressures. Its appeal to me are that the device is unlikely to clog up
with tar and can be fabricated from cans, the slot dimensions are not
critical but the angles are.

This dasifier seems to have some of the attributes of the idd. If the
rate of movement of the pyrolysis front is matched by char consumption
of the bottom then we should see a stable gas production. I would have
expected the CO generator formed by the bottom section to be a smaller
diameter than the top to increase gas velocity through the char bed.

AJH

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From psanders at ilstu.edu Tue Nov 6 13:07:44 2001
From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:16 2004
Subject: More on best stoves
Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20011106102925.01a6ddd0@mail.ilstu.edu>

Stovers,

I have more to report today on recent work with gasification.

1. I obtain strong flame and very little evident soot during the
gasification/combustion stage (prior to the burning of the charcoal). The
AMOUNT of heat from the gasification process is impressive and screams to
me that charcoal production WITHOUT USEFUL BURNING OF THE GASSES is where
tremendous waste occurs.

Comment: I am becoming even more highly convinced of the value of the
gasification process (ala the Reed-Larson style of IDD gasification). I
believe that the fuel making processes of Richard Stanley (Legacy
Foundation) could produce appropriate fuel "units" (as in mini-briquettes)
from unconsolidated biomass, but that is a separate question.

2. Size (amount) of charcoal after gasification seems to be substantial (
more than 50% of the volume of fuel pellets used for gasification).

3. I need "reasonable" air supply to ignite the process, but later I need
to restrict the primary air to VERY low amounts. Currently, the air leaks
in my gasifier container are excessive, so I am trying to seal it better at
the bottom. I believe that a 1/8 th inch ( 4 mm.) diameter hole could be
more than enough air for the 4 inch diameter gasifier chamber I am
using. Someone wrote recently that the some oxygen is released in the
gasification process, thereby "fueling" the primary fire. I am sure that
amount of oxygen will depend on the nature of the biomass.

Question #1: does anyone have understandable info on this source of
oxygen from within the fuel, or is it not an issue?

3. I am able to easily save the charcoal. I do NOT want to burn it in the
same gasifier unit because it is inefficient there and I suspect that the
heat-stress reduces the life of the gasifier unit. My alternatives are A.
to quench the charcoal in water, or B. to place the hot charcoal into some
more appropriate stove. (and for what purpose in the stove for charcoal?
slow cooking? warming? grilling steaks (not in Developing Societies)? or
what? )

Therefore: Question #2. Do we have a (or several) appropriate stoves for
use of the charcoal? For example, would the charcoal be highly
appropriate for some type of oven for bread, etc.? Charcoal needs to be
close to the object being warmed, right? Basically, I am saying that I
want the charcoal removed from the gasifier? What do I do with it?

###########

I have made a list to issues to be considered in constructing one or more
"marketable" (meaning appropriate) gasifier stoves:

Priority issues:

Diameter of
gasifier (lower unit)
burner (upper unit)
Height
gasifier
burner
Overlap of burner bottom down over the top of the gasifier, which relates to--
Secondary air controls
Primary air control
Fuel types:
"standard fuel #1" I have chosen wood pellets (as for pellet stoves)
because this fuel is available, cheap, consistent quality, needs no
processing by me, easily measured.
"standard fuel #2" To be defined
(left for later): hundreds of other fuels that are difficult to replicate
in many areas, but that need to be eventually tested.

Fuel amounts (related to diameter of the gasifier, height of the fill, and
the desired length of the burn)

OF COURSE EMISSIONS AND EFFICIENCY need to be considered, but that will
need to be done by others after we get some better idea of the basic
physical structure of the stove.

Secondary issues:

Materials of construction of the components:
Aluminum (easy to work with, transfers heat well, but ultimately too
expensive?)
Iron/steel/ "tin cans" (readily available).
mud/clay/etc. (just to keep in mind at present)

Taper of the component parts (does it make a difference?)
Forced-air enhancements (options to consider)
Multiple burners (side by side for bigger stoves)
Physical appearance, including the "support" of the the upper burner,
complete with a stove-top.

This is not a small list, and maybe other issues should be added.

My experimentation is quite simple and I hope to explain in a week or two
what I am doing so that others (read: you) can replicate and further
experiment along with me.

Meanwhile, may I suggest that you start saving all metal cans with
diameters from 3 to 7 inches. (smile :-)) ).

Paul

 

 

 

Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders

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From Tami.Bond at noaa.gov Tue Nov 6 14:21:00 2001
From: Tami.Bond at noaa.gov (Tami Bond)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:16 2004
Subject: More on best stoves
Message-ID: <10fe810874.1087410fe8@pmel.noaa.gov>

Paul,

Congratulations to you on your great progress!

> AMOUNT of heat from the gasification process is impressive and
> screams to me that charcoal production WITHOUT USEFUL BURNING OF THE
> GASSES is where tremendous waste occurs.

Agree wholeheartedly. I know most stovers are interested in biomass but
I have a "thing" for coal and China. So imagine the same with coal of
40% volatile matter. It's impossible to keep the coal from sooting in
standard burning (as done by stove users), for various reasons; also
very difficult to control.

As soon as all my equipment works at the same time (very low
probability) I am going to get some real particle numbers on coal
burning. I am getting very close now and did a practice burn last
Friday. After I measure the coal I have, I want to try IDD on this high-
volatile bituminous. Andrew has told me a little about the process, and
I'll get more info from Ron too, and perhaps see if it is a viable
method for reducing sooting. Has anyone besides Andrew tried this with
coal? How 'bout the South African contingent?

> Question #1: does anyone have understandable info on this source
> of oxygen from within the fuel, or is it not an issue?

There are many papers on pyrolysis of biomass. Try _Energy and Fuels_
journal? I don't have time to go digging on this. But first ask what
information we're looking for. How would it help you if you understood
where oxygen is coming from? Mightn't it be quicker and more robust to
develop some kind of metric for determining when your primary air is
just sufficient-- some easily-measured exhaust-gas content?

> B. to place the hot charcoal
> into some more appropriate stove. (and for what purpose in the stove
> for charcoal? slow cooking? warming? grilling steaks

How about heating? It's not needed in many locations, but people in
China bring charcoal into their homes and burn it in a flat dish to
warm themselves "smokelessly". There are generations-old family
charcoaling businesses there. Again, the potential heat from the gas
escape is wasted. The charcoaling is sometimes done in mountain caves
that can be sealed up to restrict air.

I imagine it would be pretty hard to get the users to switch stoves in
the middle of the combustion process. They probably have enough to do
with preparing the food, feeding the fire, etc. Anyone know? What about
a transportable grate that fit in both "gasification" and "charcoal"
stoves? People with lots of experience with gasification (Tom, etc.)
probably have ideas on this. I'm still a newbie & learning my way
around, but happy to listen.

This is mostly babbling so I'll sign off now.

Tami

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From psanders at ilstu.edu Tue Nov 6 16:31:56 2001
From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:16 2004
Subject: More on best stoves
In-Reply-To: <20011106182146.IHVS24707.fep02-svc.ttyl.com@localhost>
Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20011106125510.01a58970@mail.ilstu.edu>

Ken,

I like the idea (below). But because I must (currently) remove the
gasifier unit in order to refill it, I can just as easily dump it into a
container such as you suggest. Also, I am concerned about leaking primary
air into the gasification chamber.

However, my earlier experiences (perhaps with air leaks) was that the
charcoal did NOT extinguish (starved of oxygen). Do you have info to
share about how to smother the hot charcoal? If air leaks in from the top
(sealed-bottom cans are easy to obtain), with the charcoal extinguish itself?

Paul

At 06:21 PM 11/6/01 +0000, you wrote:
>Paul and stove listers,
>
>Might I suggest having a charcoal storage container below your gasifier.
>This can be just another tin can but with a sliding or "butterfly valve"
>rotating lid. When the gasification is complete, the bottom of the
>gasifying can is slid or rotated and the charcoal falls into an airtight
>container and smoulders until the oxygen is consumed - but still
>contributes some heat (for a while as it extinguishes), upwards into the
>gasification zone.
>
>The container should be sized to allow charcoal from 2 or more burns to be
>stored.
>
>In this way you do not lose the stored heat or end up with wet quenched
>charcoal.
>
>Ken Boak
>
>
>_______________________________________________________________________
>Never pay another Internet phone bill!
>Freeserve AnyTime, for all the Internet access you want, day and night,
>only £12.99 per month.
>Sign-up at http://www.freeserve.com/time/anytime

Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders

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From andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com Tue Nov 6 16:42:21 2001
From: andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com (AJH)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:16 2004
Subject: On Coanda effect
In-Reply-To: <3BDF624C.D928457D@cybershamanix.com>
Message-ID: <m5mgutchkld0c77a63vujs21n1q282rjuq@4ax.com>

On Mon, 5 Nov 2001 07:54:07 -0700, "Ron Larson"
<ronallarson@qwest.net> wrote:

>
>My questions:
>
> 1. The other products besides the "Stedair" seem to have promise for
>cooking application as well. What was your reason for concentrating on the
>"stedair"?

I was only pointing out that the idea of using steam as the power
fluid in a coanda nozzle (as I had propounded for the top "secondary"
burner of an IDD stove) was not as novel as I thought.
>
> 2. This company obviously is very skilled in gas combustion. How far
>are they (located in Berks) from your own town?

30 miles

>Have you had any direct dealings with them?

No I came across them via a web search.

> The one article on the subject
>is written by a fellow in Houston, Texas. Is that the better location to
>find burner technical expertise?

Well I see from a mate who is an oil production engineer and chemist,
that he is posting from a Shell domain and is in Houston so it must be
the place to be.
>
> 3. They seem to have settled on the Coanda effect because it is very
>effective in promoting turbulence, entrainment, and mixing - all of which we
>want to understand and control for stove improvement as well. However, they
>always (??) seem to want a huge amount of extra air - and they are not using
>the heat in the flare at all - just trying for clean combustion. They also
>seem always to have the gas under pressure. Question - their literature
>talked also about natural convection - but none of their products seemed to
>have that feature. Do you think we could get adequate effects (such as exc
>ess air closer to zero) with natural convection?

Nope, IMO you either need turbulence or excess air to make sure the
chances of a fuel molecule being met by an oxygen molecule are high
enough,

>Is there any way to
>control the excess air, if you are dealling only with natural convection?

Retention time in the combustion area is about the only other thing
you can play with.

>
>(RWL):
> This is a very interesting aspect. I tend to agree with you that adding
>steam features looks like it is getting too complicated. But I am very
>impressed by what you did with steam drying of green wood. Please keep us
>informed whenever you decide that steam may have advantages with simple cook
>stoves. (Andrew and I also talked about various means of getting fan/blower
>power for simple stoves - one possibility being from steam)

Well my first step is to mount the coanda burner which Kit Wallis
loaned me over the idd stove, I have started this and shall have a run
using compressed air but it may take a while now it is dark when I get
home. Incidentally looking at its construction I think it could be
done with tin cans and a bit of metal spinning, if it is possible to
anneal food cans. This puts it in the reach of anyone with a wood
lathe.

AJH

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From lanny at roman.net Tue Nov 6 19:39:14 2001
From: lanny at roman.net (Lanny Henson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:16 2004
Subject: Heat Capturing Grate
Message-ID: <00b301c16724$67369b00$75ba3cd0@default>

 

 

Ron and Stovers,
I will build the heat-capturing grate that I have in mind and then go from
there. We will see.
You ask about fiberglass rope. This is a very handy material and is good to
2000 deg F. It is also known as stove rope and can be purchased at most hardware
stores. The material that I used is a larger size 1" low density. It is about
$1.50 per foot. I can send you some. I can see many uses for fiberglass rope, as
spacing and sealing jacket materials, for double walling exhaust stacks, just
use two pipes and a ring of rope on each as spacers, how about a spiral of rope
around a pot with a jacket to improve heat transfer by increasing the time hot
gas spends on the pot.
Lanny
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
----- Original Message -----
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black">From:
Ron
Larson
To: <A href="mailto:lanny@roman.net"
title=lanny@roman.net>Lanny Henson ; <A href="mailto:stoves@crest.org"
title=stoves@crest.org>stoves@crest.org
Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 8:11
AM
Subject: Re: Heat Capturing Grate

Lanny (cc stovers):

We have had a mention of this
from time to time.  However, I do not remember anyone giving any
experimental results of how they have been able to improve efficiency by
following the ideas you give below.  I sure hope you can do a little more
research and report back. 

I think there is a role here
for modeling -  undoubtedly, there has been a lot of other similar work
in parallel fields.  The financial support for stoves research has been
so small that we will have to look in other applications of heat transfer for
good ideas like this.  I will make the same observation in a reply
to Andrew Heggie's recent note on the Coanda effect.

Both the Rocket stoves and the
natural draft charcoal making stoves have a substantial combustion chamber
height.  I think the conduction material could occupy a large part of
that height.  Dean Still recently wrote about the improved draft
available with a closed interior cylinder (4 inch inside a 6 inch). 
Perhaps all of that could be used for heat conduction to the cook pot. 
Perhaps this interior heat capture metal "grate" could do something to also
add turbulence - so as to get better air-fuel mixing.

Remember also that you can
still get heat transfer along the pot sides - so this is not either/or. The
message there is that lots of height is important.  I think your "grate"
will need height as well.

You are the only one I
remember talking about fiberglass ropes.  Could you report more on the
costs and where you are purchasing those ropes.  Would they be a good
enough thermal insulator to support your improved thermal-conduction
grate?

Thanks for your
input.

Ron
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
----- Original Message -----
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black">From:
Lanny Henson

To: <A href="mailto:stoves@crest.org"
title=stoves@crest.org>stoves@crest.org
Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2001 6:16
PM
Subject: Heat Capturing Grate


Heat-Capturing Grate.
So if one of the biggest loses of efficiency in a cook stove is in the
transfer of heat to the pot how about a heat-capturing grate? This grate
would capture some of the heat that would be lost and conduct it back to the
cooking pot or griddle. This grate would also improve convection by
increasing the time that the hot gas spends on the bottom of the pot or
griddle.
Here is how it would work, heat from the burner/ fire is directed to the
center of the grate and the center of the pot. From the center of the pot
the hot gas travels in a path along the bottom of the pot which increases
the time that the hot gas contacts the bottom of the pot. The grate would
have a small surface area and low thermal mass in the center so as not to
rob the heat intended for the pot. As the grate gets larger toward the
outside of the pot and the hot gas gets closer to the exit, the surface area
and the thermal mass of the grate would increase to capture more heat. The
pot would have first priority to the convection heat but some of the heat
not conducted to the pot from the hot gas would be captured by the grate in
a way that it can be conducted back to the pot through direct contact. This
heat captured by the grate could be conducted back to the bottom of the pot
for hours after the fire is out to simmer or hold (160degF) food. The grate
would be insulated and thermally isolated from the stove body so the only
way out for the heat is up to the griddle or pot. There would be some
losses. Straight conduction to the pot from the grate should be very
efficient heat transfer.
What do you think? Why will this not work?
Lanny

From kchishol at fox.nstn.ca Tue Nov 6 22:00:55 2001
From: kchishol at fox.nstn.ca (Kevin Chisholm)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:16 2004
Subject: More on best stoves
In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20011106125510.01a58970@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <000c01c16737$e8390e00$f019059a@kevin>

Dear Paul

Charcoal will extinguish itself in short order in an airtight container. If
it doesn't extinguish, then it is because air is leaking in.

Air leaking in from the top wil "fuel the fire." Fundamentally, the charcoal
cannot sustain combustion without oxygen.

Consider if there was a single hole, 1/4" diameter, anywhere, in an
otherwise airtight container. As the container cooled, it would initially
draw air in, but then combustion and heating would occur, and the products
of combustion would be expelled. AS they are being expelled, no air is
entering, and the charcoal tends to cool. Then the process repeats itself.

Consider if ther were two 1/4" holesanywhere in the container, so long as
they were at different elevations; then a "stack effect" would be created.

Hope this helps visualize the problem.

Kevin Chisholm
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul S. Anderson" <psanders@ilstu.edu>
To: <kenboak@stirlingservice.freeserve.co.uk>; "Apolinário J Malawene"
<ajmalawene01@hotmail.com>; "Bob and Karla Weldon" <bobkarlaweldon@cs.com>;
"Ed Francis" <cfranc@ilstu.edu>; "Tsamba--Alberto Julio"
<ajtsamba@zebra.uem.mz>; <stoves@crest.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 5:36 PM
Subject: Re: More on best stoves

Ken,

I like the idea (below). But because I must (currently) remove the
gasifier unit in order to refill it, I can just as easily dump it into a
container such as you suggest. Also, I am concerned about leaking primary
air into the gasification chamber.

However, my earlier experiences (perhaps with air leaks) was that the
charcoal did NOT extinguish (starved of oxygen). Do you have info to
share about how to smother the hot charcoal? If air leaks in from the top
(sealed-bottom cans are easy to obtain), with the charcoal extinguish
itself?

Paul

At 06:21 PM 11/6/01 +0000, you wrote:
>Paul and stove listers,
>
>Might I suggest having a charcoal storage container below your gasifier.
>This can be just another tin can but with a sliding or "butterfly valve"
>rotating lid. When the gasification is complete, the bottom of the
>gasifying can is slid or rotated and the charcoal falls into an airtight
>container and smoulders until the oxygen is consumed - but still
>contributes some heat (for a while as it extinguishes), upwards into the
>gasification zone.
>
>The container should be sized to allow charcoal from 2 or more burns to be
>stored.
>
>In this way you do not lose the stored heat or end up with wet quenched
>charcoal.
>
>Ken Boak
>
>
>_______________________________________________________________________
>Never pay another Internet phone bill!
>Freeserve AnyTime, for all the Internet access you want, day and night,
>only £12.99 per month.
>Sign-up at http://www.freeserve.com/time/anytime

Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders

 

 

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From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Wed Nov 7 01:28:52 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:16 2004
Subject: IDD & Charcoal(was Re: More on best stoves)
In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20011106102925.01a6ddd0@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <3BE8D483.3CBF04FC@cybershamanix.com>

I understand the desire to save the charcoal (for resale or later
use) in some sectors, but for my own uses, I'm thinking it would be best
if it all burned. Paul mentioned this possibly being hard on the stove,
but I'd assume not if you're using riser sleeves or some other ceramic
insulation. Are there any other drawbacks or difficulties in allowing
the charcoal to just burn?

--
Harmon Seaver, MLIS
CyberShamanix
Work 920-203-9633
Home 920-233-5820
hseaver@cybershamanix.com
http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html

 

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From andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com Wed Nov 7 05:00:52 2001
From: andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com (AJH)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:16 2004
Subject: IDD & Charcoal(was Re: More on best stoves)
In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20011106102925.01a6ddd0@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <7ithut491e6cdkjnd7vktb6oagirvgcrh5@4ax.com>

On Wed, 07 Nov 2001 00:28:32 -0600, Harmon Seaver
<hseaver@cybershamanix.com> wrote:

> I understand the desire to save the charcoal (for resale or later
>use) in some sectors, but for my own uses, I'm thinking it would be best
>if it all burned.

Unless the household has use for charcoal burning as well I wonder if
there is any likelihood of trading these small quantities. I think a
number of us consider that the char residue is not a major attribute
in domestic cooking, there is a possible exception which Alex and I
discussed on list, it attracted attention in an FAO newsletter at the
time, that was the possibility of a communal gasifier-ic engine using
the char to perform pumping/grinding/generation tasks. The theory
being that a simple CO generator is easier to run than an full blown
downdraft gasifier, though power is much reduced.

> Paul mentioned this possibly being hard on the stove,
>but I'd assume not if you're using riser sleeves or some other ceramic
>insulation. Are there any other drawbacks or difficulties in allowing
>the charcoal to just burn?

Lots of problems, the first is that the idd stove produces its flame
as a diffuse combination of pyrolysis products. Most of the gases for
this flame come from the secondary air slit and the fuel gas is of a
high cv. This is because the primary air requirement is low so the
offgas is little diluted by the primary combustion products. The fuel
holder is the primary combustion zone (where flaming pyrolysis occurs)
and temperatures need only be sufficient to enable pyrolysis, hence a
simple steel container will suffice.

Once the flaming pyrolysis front reaches the bottom of the stove then
charcoal burns, with low primary air velocities it burns completely to
CO2 and a lot of heat is released at the bottom of the stove, the only
flue gas is CO2 (plus combustion products of higher volatiles left in
the char) and it has the whole of the char column plus secondary air
entrainment plus secondary air combustion space to lose heat from, it
will not contribute a lot to cooking.

To turn this into an updraft gasifier you need to increase primary
airflow enough to form a deep hot bed (Tom Reed estimates it must be
20 article diameters deep) that will react the CO2 initially produced
to CO, the CO then being burned with secondary air as in the idd mode.
It is unlikely this can be done with natural draught in the absence of
a long chimney (which is precluded by the need to sit a pot on the
outlet). Also the CO generating region is >700C and quickly eats
through a steel container, though a simple flower pot in the bottom
will increase life.

My solution is to recycle the char, minus any fines and ash, with the
next fuel load. With small twigs char production does not seem to
exceed 25% of the original mass, so any char mixed homogeneously with
the fuel load exhibits a half life in the fuel cycle, though I have
not tried this over more than a few burns.

AJH

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From pverhaart at optusnet.com.au Wed Nov 7 05:06:16 2001
From: pverhaart at optusnet.com.au (Peter Verhaart)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:16 2004
Subject: Fwd: Re: On Coanda effect
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011107195709.00a93340@mail.optusnet.com.au>

 

>Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 07:47:25 -0700
>From: "Ron Larson" <ronallarson@qwest.net>
>To: "Peter Verhaart" <pverhaart@optusnet.com.au>
>Subject: Re: On Coanda effect
>X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200
>
>Piet -
>
> I have some of the questions. The Coanda effect value is not yet clear
>for "simple" stoves - but it does seem to work for Kaldair. Did you visit
>lots of parts of their site?
>
> But I think you meant this to go to all. Why not resend?
>
>Ron

I am forwarding this to the Stoves List, I should look at the sender's
address once in a while.

I visited the site but confined myself to the flare part. I think for the
Coanda effect you need higher velocities than we get in our non-externally
owered stoves.

Thank you, Ronal.

Piet

>----- Original Message -----
>From: Peter Verhaart <pverhaart@optusnet.com.au>
>To: Ron Larson <ronallarson@qwest.net>
>Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 3:53 AM
>Subject: Re: On Coanda effect
>
>
> >
> >
> > At 07:54 5/11/01 -0700, you wrote:
> > >Andrew and Stovers
> > >
> > >(rwl): I visited that site and found it quite fascinating. For
>others,
> > >I should report that Kaldair seems to be a firm dealing mainly with
>flaring
> > >natural gas (sometimes with liquids). They seem to be British and have
> > >gotten their start from work done in this area by BP (British Petroleum).
> > >The Kaldair site gives good background on the Coanda effect (which I
>won't
> > >try to repeat, but recommend for some who may be interested following
>these
> > >added questions).
> >
> >
> > I always thought the Coanda effect is what infuriates us when the tea (or
> > even coffee) runs down the outside of the spout instead of, as the
>designer
> > has ordered, form a decent jet that directs the liquid into the cup. It
>has
> > to do with a boundary layer that sticks to the main stream.
> > I don't see how that could promote combustion.
> > Regarding flares, I think we are up against the very opposite. Flares
> > usually have to burn gases with a high combustion value (hydrocarbons).
> > Diluting them with steam enlarges the volume thus enabling diffusion of
> > air. Further the steam can entrain air when needed, forming a premixed
> > flame (even if the mixture remains rich, the sooting will be less).
> > We stovers are dealing with a low calorific gas with a variable
>composition
> > as well as a variable rate of flow. No wonder sensible people turn to
> > liquid and gaseous fuels.
> >
> > Piet
> >
> >

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From andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com Wed Nov 7 05:39:20 2001
From: andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com (AJH)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:16 2004
Subject: Fwd: Re: On Coanda effect
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011107195709.00a93340@mail.optusnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <ti3iutgj4oq39a8tuk8l3alpb8mn99jei7@4ax.com>

On Wed, 07 Nov 2001 20:05:03 +1000, Peter Verhaart
<pverhaart@optusnet.com.au> wrote:

>
>I am forwarding this to the Stoves List, I should look at the sender's
>address once in a while.
No, the list should conform to common software and carry a reply to:
header, I frequently end up replying to poster instead of list.
>
>I visited the site but confined myself to the flare part. I think for the
>Coanda effect you need higher velocities than we get in our non-externally
>owered stoves.

I am certain this effect is of no importance in natural draft stoves.
However that need not rule it out in otherwise "powerless" situations.
AJH

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From tombreed at home.com Wed Nov 7 07:56:44 2001
From: tombreed at home.com (Thomas Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:16 2004
Subject: Charcoal - To burn or produce?
In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20011106102925.01a6ddd0@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <001601c1678a$1e09efc0$18e5b618@lakwod3.co.home.com>

Dear Stovers All:

When I first operated an inverted downdraft gasifier-stove in 1985 I was
delighted how easily it made a combustible gas - but not happy about
charcoal production (~20% here in Dry Denver).

When Ron Larson contacted me in 1995 to ask if I knew how to use the
volatiles from charcoal making I was happy to say that I was working on
stoves that did both. Ron convinced me that the charcoal would be a
positive by-product in some parts of the world where charcoal is used in the
cities. Two years later we published our paper on natural draft WoodGas
stoves.

Nevertheless, from the viewpoint of many cooks, charcoal production was a
nuisance, since up to 1/3 of the fuel value is in the charcoal.
~~~~~
The problem is that biomass is really two fuels:

1) the volatiles that are released between 300 and 400 C

2) the charcoal that remains afterward.

I have found two solutions to this.

1) With proper control of primary (gasification) air and combustion air, one
can use VERY little primary air to gasify dry fuel (< 1/1 Air/fuel ratio),
moderate primary air for wet fuels (up to ~ 30%moisture, ~3/1 A/F) and lots
of air (6/1 A/F)to gasify charcoal to a beautifully burning CO/H2 flame.
This requires some attention from the cook to either change the ratio when
the volatiles have burned or add more fuel on top of the hot charcoal
(approximately 10 g/min to prevent big flare).

2) By burning wetter and wetter fuels the problem disappears because the
charcoal needs to burn to dry the fuel to permit flame propagation.

There may be other ways to consume biomass as if it were a single fuel and I
am investigating them.

Onward....... TOM REED BEF

 

Dr. Thomas Reed
The Biomass Energy Foundation
1810 Smith Rd., Golden, CO 80401
303 278 0558;
tombreed@home.com; www.woodgas.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Harmon Seaver" <hseaver@cybershamanix.com>
To: <stoves@crest.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 11:28 PM
Subject: IDD & Charcoal(was Re: More on best stoves)

> I understand the desire to save the charcoal (for resale or later
> use) in some sectors, but for my own uses, I'm thinking it would be best
> if it all burned. Paul mentioned this possibly being hard on the stove,
> but I'd assume not if you're using riser sleeves or some other ceramic
> insulation. Are there any other drawbacks or difficulties in allowing
> the charcoal to just burn?
>
> --
> Harmon Seaver, MLIS
> CyberShamanix
> Work 920-203-9633
> Home 920-233-5820
> hseaver@cybershamanix.com
> http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html
>
>
>
> -
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>
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From tombreed at home.com Wed Nov 7 08:58:02 2001
From: tombreed at home.com (Thomas Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:16 2004
Subject: Charcoal post combustion..
In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20011106125510.01a58970@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <00a901c16792$99667780$18e5b618@lakwod3.co.home.com>

Dear Kevin and all:

It is VERY difficult to extinguish charcoal because of the effect Kevin so
well discussed below.

I have had "extinguished stoves" be still warm a day later.

Also, leaks can generate CO - deadly if you get enough.

So make airtight extinction really tight - or spray on water!

TOM
Dr. Thomas Reed
The Biomass Energy Foundation
1810 Smith Rd., Golden, CO 80401
303 278 0558;
tombreed@home.com; www.woodgas.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kevin Chisholm" <kchishol@fox.nstn.ca>
To: <kenboak@stirlingservice.freeserve.co.uk>; "Apolinário J Malawene"
<ajmalawene01@hotmail.com>; "Bob and Karla Weldon" <bobkarlaweldon@cs.com>;
"Ed Francis" <cfranc@ilstu.edu>; "Tsamba--Alberto Julio"
<ajtsamba@zebra.uem.mz>; <stoves@crest.org>; "Paul S. Anderson"
<psanders@ilstu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 7:57 PM
Subject: Re: More on best stoves

> Dear Paul
>
> Charcoal will extinguish itself in short order in an airtight container.
If
> it doesn't extinguish, then it is because air is leaking in.
>
> Air leaking in from the top wil "fuel the fire." Fundamentally, the
charcoal
> cannot sustain combustion without oxygen.
>
> Consider if there was a single hole, 1/4" diameter, anywhere, in an
> otherwise airtight container. As the container cooled, it would initially
> draw air in, but then combustion and heating would occur, and the products
> of combustion would be expelled. AS they are being expelled, no air is
> entering, and the charcoal tends to cool. Then the process repeats itself.
>
> Consider if ther were two 1/4" holesanywhere in the container, so long as
> they were at different elevations; then a "stack effect" would be created.
>
> Hope this helps visualize the problem.
>
> Kevin Chisholm
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Paul S. Anderson" <psanders@ilstu.edu>
> To: <kenboak@stirlingservice.freeserve.co.uk>; "Apolinário J Malawene"
> <ajmalawene01@hotmail.com>; "Bob and Karla Weldon"
<bobkarlaweldon@cs.com>;
> "Ed Francis" <cfranc@ilstu.edu>; "Tsamba--Alberto Julio"
> <ajtsamba@zebra.uem.mz>; <stoves@crest.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 5:36 PM
> Subject: Re: More on best stoves
>
>
> Ken,
>
> I like the idea (below). But because I must (currently) remove the
> gasifier unit in order to refill it, I can just as easily dump it into a
> container such as you suggest. Also, I am concerned about leaking
primary
> air into the gasification chamber.
>
> However, my earlier experiences (perhaps with air leaks) was that the
> charcoal did NOT extinguish (starved of oxygen). Do you have info to
> share about how to smother the hot charcoal? If air leaks in from the
top
> (sealed-bottom cans are easy to obtain), with the charcoal extinguish
> itself?
>
> Paul
>
> At 06:21 PM 11/6/01 +0000, you wrote:
> >Paul and stove listers,
> >
> >Might I suggest having a charcoal storage container below your gasifier.
> >This can be just another tin can but with a sliding or "butterfly valve"
> >rotating lid. When the gasification is complete, the bottom of the
> >gasifying can is slid or rotated and the charcoal falls into an airtight
> >container and smoulders until the oxygen is consumed - but still
> >contributes some heat (for a while as it extinguishes), upwards into the
> >gasification zone.
> >
> >The container should be sized to allow charcoal from 2 or more burns to
be
> >stored.
> >
> >In this way you do not lose the stored heat or end up with wet quenched
> >charcoal.
> >
> >Ken Boak
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________________________________
> >Never pay another Internet phone bill!
> >Freeserve AnyTime, for all the Internet access you want, day and night,
> >only £12.99 per month.
> >Sign-up at http://www.freeserve.com/time/anytime
>
> Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
> Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
> Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
> E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders
>
>
>
>
>
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>

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From psanders at ilstu.edu Wed Nov 7 10:10:11 2001
From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:16 2004
Subject: IDD & Charcoal(was Re: More on best stoves)
In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20011106102925.01a6ddd0@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20011107090755.01a57330@mail.ilstu.edu>

Good comment, but I am thinking of NOT using riser sleeves or other
insulation unless it is literally dirt-cheap in Developing countries.

Also, earlier comments from others commented on the need to place the
burning charcoal quite close to the object to be heated or cooked. But in
the gasifier, there is considerable height added by the burner chamber
(which is not needed if burning the charcoal) and by the gasifier lower
unit itself.

So I continue with my question of how to consume the produced charcoal
separately from the gasifier stove. More help please.

To ELK: you make char and then you must cool it in order to process it
into your Chardust briquettes. Any suggestions?

Paul

At 12:28 AM 11/7/01 -0600, Harmon Seaver wrote:
> I understand the desire to save the charcoal (for resale or later
>use) in some sectors, but for my own uses, I'm thinking it would be best
>if it all burned. Paul mentioned this possibly being hard on the stove,
>but I'd assume not if you're using riser sleeves or some other ceramic
>insulation. Are there any other drawbacks or difficulties in allowing
>the charcoal to just burn?
>
>--
>Harmon Seaver, MLIS
>CyberShamanix
>Work 920-203-9633
>Home 920-233-5820
>hseaver@cybershamanix.com
>http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html
>
>
>
>-
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Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders

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From psanders at ilstu.edu Wed Nov 7 10:48:45 2001
From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:16 2004
Subject: IDD & Charcoal(was Re: More on best stoves)
In-Reply-To: <3BE8D483.3CBF04FC@cybershamanix.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20011107094128.00c18b00@mail.ilstu.edu>

Stovers,

I agree with AJH's comments about the need (desirability) of removing the
char from the gasifier unit before the temperature rises when the char
starts its "burn".

>AJH also wrote:
>My solution is to recycle the char, minus any fines and ash, with the
>next fuel load. With small twigs char production does not seem to
>exceed 25% of the original mass, so any char mixed homogeneously with
>the fuel load exhibits a half life in the fuel cycle, though I have
>not tried this over more than a few burns.

Paul asks:

Does the char need to be cool before mixing? If it is hot it could cause
gasification lower in the fuel load instead of at the top and then working
downwards.

I assume that simply dumping the hot char on top of the next fuel load
would accomplish nothing desirable, but would simply act like a deeper fuel
load, of which the top part has already had its pyrolysis completed and
would only serve to slow (undesirable) the upward movement of the gases
from below.

ALSO, is the resultant char from a gasifier stove equivalent in "caloric
reserve" (my made-up term) to char that is produced by other methods, such
as what ELK is using or what AD Karve is initiating with cane leaves in India?

Char is char is char is char ?????? Or is it NOT the same?

Paul

At 10:00 AM 11/7/01 +0000, AJH wrote:
>On Wed, 07 Nov 2001 00:28:32 -0600, Harmon Seaver
><hseaver@cybershamanix.com> wrote:
>
> > I understand the desire to save the charcoal (for resale or later
> >use) in some sectors, but for my own uses, I'm thinking it would be best
> >if it all burned.
>
>Unless the household has use for charcoal burning as well I wonder if
>there is any likelihood of trading these small quantities. I think a
>number of us consider that the char residue is not a major attribute
>in domestic cooking, there is a possible exception which Alex and I
>discussed on list, it attracted attention in an FAO newsletter at the
>time, that was the possibility of a communal gasifier-ic engine using
>the char to perform pumping/grinding/generation tasks. The theory
>being that a simple CO generator is easier to run than an full blown
>downdraft gasifier, though power is much reduced.
>
> > Paul mentioned this possibly being hard on the stove,
> >but I'd assume not if you're using riser sleeves or some other ceramic
> >insulation. Are there any other drawbacks or difficulties in allowing
> >the charcoal to just burn?
>
>Lots of problems, the first is that the idd stove produces its flame
>as a diffuse combination of pyrolysis products. Most of the gases for
>this flame come from the secondary air slit and the fuel gas is of a
>high cv. This is because the primary air requirement is low so the
>offgas is little diluted by the primary combustion products. The fuel
>holder is the primary combustion zone (where flaming pyrolysis occurs)
>and temperatures need only be sufficient to enable pyrolysis, hence a
>simple steel container will suffice.
>
>Once the flaming pyrolysis front reaches the bottom of the stove then
>charcoal burns, with low primary air velocities it burns completely to
>CO2 and a lot of heat is released at the bottom of the stove, the only
>flue gas is CO2 (plus combustion products of higher volatiles left in
>the char) and it has the whole of the char column plus secondary air
>entrainment plus secondary air combustion space to lose heat from, it
>will not contribute a lot to cooking.
>
>To turn this into an updraft gasifier you need to increase primary
>airflow enough to form a deep hot bed (Tom Reed estimates it must be
>20 article diameters deep) that will react the CO2 initially produced
>to CO, the CO then being burned with secondary air as in the idd mode.
>It is unlikely this can be done with natural draught in the absence of
>a long chimney (which is precluded by the need to sit a pot on the
>outlet). Also the CO generating region is >700C and quickly eats
>through a steel container, though a simple flower pot in the bottom
>will increase life.
>
>My solution is to recycle the char, minus any fines and ash, with the
>next fuel load. With small twigs char production does not seem to
>exceed 25% of the original mass, so any char mixed homogeneously with
>the fuel load exhibits a half life in the fuel cycle, though I have
>not tried this over more than a few burns.
>
>AJH
>
>
>-
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>
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Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders

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From psanders at ilstu.edu Wed Nov 7 11:08:32 2001
From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:16 2004
Subject: Charcoal - To burn or produce?
In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20011106102925.01a6ddd0@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20011107095936.00c186b0@mail.ilstu.edu>

Tom and all,

In your message (below for those who did not see it), I assume that you are
NOT advocating or seeing advantages of using wetter fuel. If the fuel is
damp (or too damp for the gasifier operation), I would prefer to do some
drying of future fuel separately from the gasifier for cooking. Drying
could be done with some of the waste heat from the gasifier stove usage, OR
maybe done by using the resultant char, about which we are discussing
possible uses.

Given the LOW amount of primary air needed for gasification of dry fuel,
and assuming that the gasifier (lower) unit is not leaking in extra air,
when the gasification is completed, the amount of gases then is greatly
diminished, the flame in the upper (burner) chamber goes out, there is some
resultant smoking (undesirable, and potentially dangerous to health). BUT
that is a clear signal that it is time to remove the char to whatever other
location has been chosen. If the meal is almost ready (just to simmer, or
just to keep it hot), then the char in another container could do the
needed job, and the gasifier is finished for that meal cooking or heating job.

This (above) leads me to continue to see value in a very simple lower
(gasifier) chamber with very little entry of primary air (controls are
being discussed, but it will be focused on the small volume of air needed,
not on the 6 to 1 increase needed IF the charcoals were to be burned in the
gasifer unit.)

Hey, keep talking!!!! This is all VERY HELPFUL !!!!!

Paul

At 05:45 AM 11/7/01 -0700, Thomas Reed wrote:
>Dear Stovers All:
>
>When I first operated an inverted downdraft gasifier-stove in 1985 I was
>delighted how easily it made a combustible gas - but not happy about
>charcoal production (~20% here in Dry Denver).
>
>When Ron Larson contacted me in 1995 to ask if I knew how to use the
>volatiles from charcoal making I was happy to say that I was working on
>stoves that did both. Ron convinced me that the charcoal would be a
>positive by-product in some parts of the world where charcoal is used in the
>cities. Two years later we published our paper on natural draft WoodGas
>stoves.
>
>Nevertheless, from the viewpoint of many cooks, charcoal production was a
>nuisance, since up to 1/3 of the fuel value is in the charcoal.
> ~~~~~
>The problem is that biomass is really two fuels:
>
>1) the volatiles that are released between 300 and 400 C
>
>2) the charcoal that remains afterward.
>
>I have found two solutions to this.
>
>1) With proper control of primary (gasification) air and combustion air, one
>can use VERY little primary air to gasify dry fuel (< 1/1 Air/fuel ratio),
>moderate primary air for wet fuels (up to ~ 30%moisture, ~3/1 A/F) and lots
>of air (6/1 A/F)to gasify charcoal to a beautifully burning CO/H2 flame.
>This requires some attention from the cook to either change the ratio when
>the volatiles have burned or add more fuel on top of the hot charcoal
>(approximately 10 g/min to prevent big flare).
>
>2) By burning wetter and wetter fuels the problem disappears because the
>charcoal needs to burn to dry the fuel to permit flame propagation.
>
>There may be other ways to consume biomass as if it were a single fuel and I
>am investigating them.
>
>Onward....... TOM REED BEF
>
>
>
> Dr. Thomas Reed
> The Biomass Energy Foundation
> 1810 Smith Rd., Golden, CO 80401
>303 278 0558;
>tombreed@home.com; www.woodgas.com
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Harmon Seaver" <hseaver@cybershamanix.com>
>To: <stoves@crest.org>
>Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 11:28 PM
>Subject: IDD & Charcoal(was Re: More on best stoves)
>
>
> > I understand the desire to save the charcoal (for resale or later
> > use) in some sectors, but for my own uses, I'm thinking it would be best
> > if it all burned. Paul mentioned this possibly being hard on the stove,
> > but I'd assume not if you're using riser sleeves or some other ceramic
> > insulation. Are there any other drawbacks or difficulties in allowing
> > the charcoal to just burn?
> >
> > --
> > Harmon Seaver, MLIS
> > CyberShamanix
> > Work 920-203-9633
> > Home 920-233-5820
> > hseaver@cybershamanix.com
> > http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html
> >
> >
> >
> > -
> > Stoves List Archives and Website:
> > http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
> > http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
> >
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> > Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
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> >
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> > -
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> >
> > For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
> > http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm
> >

Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders

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From psanders at ilstu.edu Wed Nov 7 11:21:34 2001
From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:16 2004
Subject: Charcoal post combustion..
In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20011106125510.01a58970@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20011107101508.00c1f750@mail.ilstu.edu>

I can relate to Tom's experience about difficulty extinguishing
charcoal. (makes me think of coal mine fires that burn for centuries, but
that probably has additional factors that I do not want to explore.)

I have been quenching (dump into a bucket of water). Waterlogged
charcoal. Not good. But I could probably "air dry" the charcoal or "sun
dry" it or even dry it on a pan that is heated by the fire that I next use,
the same day or weeks later.

But Tom suggests spraying, which I like better than trying to get airtight
containers for cooks in the Third World.

Might that be "spread and spray"?

or "spread, spray, stir, spray" a "4-S" process?

Boy scouts use the "you can touch it with your bare hand" test for
extinguishing camp fires.

Paul

At 06:46 AM 11/7/01 -0700, Thomas Reed wrote:
>Dear Kevin and all:
>
>It is VERY difficult to extinguish charcoal because of the effect Kevin so
>well discussed below.
>
>I have had "extinguished stoves" be still warm a day later.
>
>Also, leaks can generate CO - deadly if you get enough.
>
>So make airtight extinction really tight - or spray on water!
>
>TOM
> Dr. Thomas Reed
> The Biomass Energy Foundation
> 1810 Smith Rd., Golden, CO 80401
>303 278 0558;
>tombreed@home.com; www.woodgas.com
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Kevin Chisholm" <kchishol@fox.nstn.ca>
>To: <kenboak@stirlingservice.freeserve.co.uk>; "Apolinário J Malawene"
><ajmalawene01@hotmail.com>; "Bob and Karla Weldon" <bobkarlaweldon@cs.com>;
>"Ed Francis" <cfranc@ilstu.edu>; "Tsamba--Alberto Julio"
><ajtsamba@zebra.uem.mz>; <stoves@crest.org>; "Paul S. Anderson"
><psanders@ilstu.edu>
>Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 7:57 PM
>Subject: Re: More on best stoves
>
>
> > Dear Paul
> >
> > Charcoal will extinguish itself in short order in an airtight container.
>If
> > it doesn't extinguish, then it is because air is leaking in.
> >
> > Air leaking in from the top wil "fuel the fire." Fundamentally, the
>charcoal
> > cannot sustain combustion without oxygen.
> >
> > Consider if there was a single hole, 1/4" diameter, anywhere, in an
> > otherwise airtight container. As the container cooled, it would initially
> > draw air in, but then combustion and heating would occur, and the products
> > of combustion would be expelled. AS they are being expelled, no air is
> > entering, and the charcoal tends to cool. Then the process repeats itself.
> >
> > Consider if ther were two 1/4" holesanywhere in the container, so long as
> > they were at different elevations; then a "stack effect" would be created.
> >
> > Hope this helps visualize the problem.
> >
> > Kevin Chisholm
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Paul S. Anderson" <psanders@ilstu.edu>
> > To: <kenboak@stirlingservice.freeserve.co.uk>; "Apolinário J Malawene"
> > <ajmalawene01@hotmail.com>; "Bob and Karla Weldon"
><bobkarlaweldon@cs.com>;
> > "Ed Francis" <cfranc@ilstu.edu>; "Tsamba--Alberto Julio"
> > <ajtsamba@zebra.uem.mz>; <stoves@crest.org>
> > Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 5:36 PM
> > Subject: Re: More on best stoves
> >
> >
> > Ken,
> >
> > I like the idea (below). But because I must (currently) remove the
> > gasifier unit in order to refill it, I can just as easily dump it into a
> > container such as you suggest. Also, I am concerned about leaking
>primary
> > air into the gasification chamber.
> >
> > However, my earlier experiences (perhaps with air leaks) was that the
> > charcoal did NOT extinguish (starved of oxygen). Do you have info to
> > share about how to smother the hot charcoal? If air leaks in from the
>top
> > (sealed-bottom cans are easy to obtain), with the charcoal extinguish
> > itself?
> >
> > Paul
> >
> > At 06:21 PM 11/6/01 +0000, you wrote:
> > >Paul and stove listers,
> > >
> > >Might I suggest having a charcoal storage container below your gasifier.
> > >This can be just another tin can but with a sliding or "butterfly valve"
> > >rotating lid. When the gasification is complete, the bottom of the
> > >gasifying can is slid or rotated and the charcoal falls into an airtight
> > >container and smoulders until the oxygen is consumed - but still
> > >contributes some heat (for a while as it extinguishes), upwards into the
> > >gasification zone.
> > >
> > >The container should be sized to allow charcoal from 2 or more burns to
>be
> > >stored.
> > >
> > >In this way you do not lose the stored heat or end up with wet quenched
> > >charcoal.
> > >
> > >Ken Boak
> > >
> > >
> > >_______________________________________________________________________
> > >Never pay another Internet phone bill!
> > >Freeserve AnyTime, for all the Internet access you want, day and night,
> > >only £12.99 per month.
> > >Sign-up at http://www.freeserve.com/time/anytime
> >
> > Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
> > Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
> > Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
> > E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -
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> >
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> >
> >
>
>
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>
>For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
>http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders

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From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Wed Nov 7 11:57:50 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:16 2004
Subject: Charcoal post combustion..
In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20011106125510.01a58970@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <3BE967EA.BEE4DA09@cybershamanix.com>

Seems to me I recall reading warnings about damp charcoal and
auto-combustion -- can't remember what the exact mechanisim involved was. Also, I
think, there were warnings about the dangers of explosions????

"Paul S. Anderson" wrote:

> I can relate to Tom's experience about difficulty extinguishing
> charcoal. (makes me think of coal mine fires that burn for centuries, but
> that probably has additional factors that I do not want to explore.)
>
> I have been quenching (dump into a bucket of water). Waterlogged
> charcoal. Not good. But I could probably "air dry" the charcoal or "sun
> dry" it or even dry it on a pan that is heated by the fire that I next use,
> the same day or weeks later.
>
> But Tom suggests spraying, which I like better than trying to get airtight
> containers for cooks in the Third World.
>
> Might that be "spread and spray"?
>
> or "spread, spray, stir, spray" a "4-S" process?
>
> Boy scouts use the "you can touch it with your bare hand" test for
> extinguishing camp fires.

--
Harmon Seaver, MLIS
CyberShamanix
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Home 920-233-5820
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From andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com Wed Nov 7 14:04:12 2001
From: andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com (AJH)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:16 2004
Subject: Charcoal post combustion..
In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20011106125510.01a58970@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <pttiutoq54849r2monnqstlur02bgf9tp9@4ax.com>

On Wed, 07 Nov 2001 10:25:49 -0600, "Paul S. Anderson"
<psanders@ilstu.edu> wrote:

>I have been quenching (dump into a bucket of water). Waterlogged
>charcoal. Not good. But I could probably "air dry" the charcoal or "sun
>dry" it or even dry it on a pan that is heated by the fire that I next use,
>the same day or weeks later.

I do not consider this a bad option, charcoal is porous so dries quite
quickly, the dunking also removes ash from the surface. You need to be
quite quick as the charcoal will sink with the ash once it saturates,
I use a kitchen sieve to retrieve the char and allow the ash and char
fines to sink.
>
>But Tom suggests spraying, which I like better than trying to get airtight
>containers for cooks in the Third World.

On the large scale I have found spraying difficult, if you miss a bit
the first think you see is a white patch of ash spreading over the
black surface.
AJH

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From andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com Wed Nov 7 14:04:52 2001
From: andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com (AJH)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:17 2004
Subject: IDD & Charcoal(was Re: More on best stoves)
In-Reply-To: <3BE8D483.3CBF04FC@cybershamanix.com>
Message-ID: <v6uiutg08nn2dqdirl8apm247khdc5l7sv@4ax.com>

On Wed, 07 Nov 2001 09:53:35 -0600, "Paul S. Anderson"
<psanders@ilstu.edu> wrote:

>Does the char need to be cool before mixing? If it is hot it could cause
>gasification lower in the fuel load instead of at the top and then working
>downwards.

Absolutely, if the char is hot it will start burning in the primary
air, turning the fuel above it into a smoky bonfire. Freshly made
charcoal ignites very easily, I have had it ignite in a drying oven
presumably from the radiant energy from the heating element, after all
charcoal is nearly a black body, remember char does not need a flame
to ignite it. Anybody know offhand what the spontaneous temperature
for combustion of char is? I seem to recall it is 1200C for diamond to
graphitise.
>
>I assume that simply dumping the hot char on top of the next fuel load
>would accomplish nothing desirable, but would simply act like a deeper fuel
>load, of which the top part has already had its pyrolysis completed and
>would only serve to slow (undesirable) the upward movement of the gases
>from below.

Correct, the area above the flaming pyrolysis zone is essentially
inert.

>ALSO, is the resultant char from a gasifier stove equivalent in "caloric
>reserve" (my made-up term) to char that is produced by other methods, such
>as what ELK is using or what AD Karve is initiating with cane leaves in India?
>
>Char is char is char is char ?????? Or is it NOT the same?

Not necessarily the same, pure carbon char as used in silicon
production is probably nearly pure carbon and ash, it is cooked at
high temperature. The char from the idd will depend on the temperature
reached but will have those volatiles in it that have not been heated
to vapour in the primary chamber, it will contain the ash still in the
char matrix as well as ash from char consumed to CO2 in the process.

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From andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com Wed Nov 7 14:05:25 2001
From: andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com (AJH)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:17 2004
Subject: Charcoal post combustion..
In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20011106125510.01a58970@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <5i0jut00pb81ml00kgcgq6d2h2a8adcd6l@4ax.com>

On Wed, 07 Nov 2001 10:57:22 -0600, Harmon Seaver
<hseaver@cybershamanix.com> wrote:

> Seems to me I recall reading warnings about damp charcoal and
>auto-combustion -- can't remember what the exact mechanisim involved was. Also, I
>think, there were warnings about the dangers of explosions????

I would be very interested to hear more of this. As a seasonal
anecdote after Guido's arrest the remainder of the plotters retreated
with one barrel of powder, for the muskets, to a stately home. Once
there they found the powder damp, so they spread it in front of the
open fire.

It subsequently ignited and injured them all, soon after they were
captured.

Now black powder is a mixture of char, potassium nitrate and sulphur.
I would not expect any volatiles to be given off to cause a flash
over. I imagine they were mindful of sparks, so could the black powder
have reached its spontaneous ignition temperature from the radiation
of the flames?

AJH

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From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Wed Nov 7 22:25:37 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:17 2004
Subject: Charcoal post combustion..
In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20011106125510.01a58970@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <3BE9FB08.AC09B15E@cybershamanix.com>

AJH wrote:

> On Wed, 07 Nov 2001 10:57:22 -0600, Harmon Seaver
> <hseaver@cybershamanix.com> wrote:
>
> > Seems to me I recall reading warnings about damp charcoal and
> >auto-combustion -- can't remember what the exact mechanisim involved was. Also, I
> >think, there were warnings about the dangers of explosions????
>
> I would be very interested to hear more of this.

I've been looking thru my 1961 edition of the USFS Report # 2213, "Charcoal:
Production, Marketing, and Use" which I got and read thoroughly many years ago when
seriously contemplating a career as a charcoaler. And which, I would have thought,
would have been the source of that idea, but now I'm not sure. It has a lot to say
about charcoal explosions, but those seem to be within kilns. It does mention,
however:
"Although spontaneous combustion (self ignition by generation of heat through
chemical action within the charcoal) is always a possibility..." and goes on to speak
of the dangers of fires from not-quite-extinguished coal.
That passage, however, does bring the argument a bit more into focus -- that
there is a distinct correlation between moisture, pressure, and heating in supposedly
"dry" charcoal.

So, just doing a google on "spontaneous combustion" and charcoal, finds:

> Some of the materials which have a high tendency to heat are linseed oil which is commonly used in
> furniture refinishing, fish meal, fish oil, alfalfa meal, cod liver oil, corn meal feeds, oiled fabrics, oiled
> rags, peanuts, varnished fabrics, and charcoal.
>
> Large coal piles must be carefully prepared to prevent heating of the material. Large industrial users
> such as hydro generating plants and similar facilities, monitor the moisture content, and compaction, of
> their coal piles very closely to ensure that spontaneous heating and ignition does not occur.
>

and from the NY fire dept.:

> Keep damp or wet coals in a well ventilated area. During the drying process, spontaneous
> combustion can occur in confined areas.
>

and from http://www.barbecueing.com/html/safety.html:

> When cooking is over, soak the coals so to prevent their
> re-ignition. Dispose of charcoal in a metal container with a tight
> fitting lid. Never keep damp or wet charcoal in an unventilated
> area due to the dangers of spontaneous combustion that can
> result from drying.
>

and from http://www.co.arlington.va.us/fire/cookout.htm

> Keep damp or wet coals in a well ventilated area. During the drying process, spontaneous
> combustion can occur in confined areas. If a bag of charcoal gets wet, leave it outside, away
> from combustibles.
>

and
http://www.travis.af.mil/news/tailwindonline/stories_2001/august/20010824_03.htmBy

60th Civil Engineer Squadron
Fire Protection Flight

> - Dampness in charcoal can cause spontaneous combustion. Therefore, charcoal should be stored in a dry place
> to protect from dampness.
>

Well, there's about 562 hits on this subject.

Mind you, none of these, including the aforementioned USFS book, is anything I'd
consider as gospel, and all this might stem from the same contaminated source. But it
definitely makes me nervous ...

--
Harmon Seaver, MLIS
CyberShamanix
Work 920-203-9633
Home 920-233-5820
hseaver@cybershamanix.com
http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html

 

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From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Wed Nov 7 22:48:49 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:17 2004
Subject: Stoves, hmmm!
Message-ID: <3BEA007F.35E8EA2C@cybershamanix.com>

Lit off my first stove tonight. Not exactly what I'd call a roaring
success, but it was interesting. I took a coffee can (6" x 6" more or
less) and punched two opposing holes in it's sides at the bottom. Then I
put in a clay flower pot, one of my wife's "bulb pots" which has not
just the normal center hole, but also 4 smaller holes, actually, slots,
around the edge, in the can for a fire chamber. I filled this with wood
pellets, then topped it with a 24" length of 6" stove pipe, which had
1/4" holes drilled 1" apart all around about 15" from what would be the
top of the can & pot.
I tried to light the pellets by lighting a ball of crunched
newspaper and dropping it in, but that didn't seem too effective, so
finally took off the stove pipe, and used a propane torch, then
reinserted the stove pipe. Once assured the pellets were indeed burning,
I then put another stove pipe, 8 inch, over the whole thing to add
insulation.
The pellets did burn fairly smoke free for over 1/2 hour, then I
went in for awhile, to find that at one hour after lighting, there was a
fairly heavy smoke coming out. Tried to light that, to no avail. Later I
see a nice pot of charcoal, mostly out. I don't think I was ever getting
a good secondary combustion (no flame at the top) but I do see a "line"
on the inside of the pipe at the level of the secondary air holes.
Tomorrow I'll try a load of twigs instead of the pellets, and I'll
insulate the area between the 6" and 8" stove pipe. Also maybe will try
more secondary air holes lower on the pipe.
I just picked up 3 nice little 15 gallon steel drums (13"x25") and
3 30 gallon drums (18.5"x29") to experiment with -- wish I could find
something like a 10 gallon. But I'll burn up some tin cans before I
start on those.

--
Harmon Seaver, MLIS
CyberShamanix
Work 920-203-9633
Home 920-233-5820
hseaver@cybershamanix.com
http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html

 

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From kchishol at fox.nstn.ca Wed Nov 7 22:56:45 2001
From: kchishol at fox.nstn.ca (Kevin Chisholm)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:17 2004
Subject: Charcoal post combustion..
In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20011106125510.01a58970@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <005a01c16808$f3ab4740$0d19059a@kevin>

Dear Harmon

I recall from a book on charcoal, that it can be pyrophoric, when made under
the right conditions: retorted in a vacuum.

This suggests that the specific manufacturing process may have a bearing on
the tendancy of atmospherically produced charcoals to combust spontaneously.

Kindest regards,

Kevin Chisholm

----- Original Message -----
From: "Harmon Seaver" <hseaver@cybershamanix.com>
To: "AJH" <andrew.heggie@dtn.ntl.com>
Cc: <stoves@crest.org>
Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2001 11:26 PM
Subject: Re: Charcoal post combustion..

> AJH wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 07 Nov 2001 10:57:22 -0600, Harmon Seaver
> > <hseaver@cybershamanix.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Seems to me I recall reading warnings about damp charcoal and
> > >auto-combustion -- can't remember what the exact mechanisim involved
was. Also, I
> > >think, there were warnings about the dangers of explosions????
> >
> > I would be very interested to hear more of this.
>
> I've been looking thru my 1961 edition of the USFS Report # 2213,
"Charcoal:
> Production, Marketing, and Use" which I got and read thoroughly many years
ago when
> seriously contemplating a career as a charcoaler. And which, I would have
thought,
> would have been the source of that idea, but now I'm not sure. It has a
lot to say
> about charcoal explosions, but those seem to be within kilns. It does
mention,
> however:
> "Although spontaneous combustion (self ignition by generation of heat
through
> chemical action within the charcoal) is always a possibility..." and goes
on to speak
> of the dangers of fires from not-quite-extinguished coal.
> That passage, however, does bring the argument a bit more into
focus -- that
> there is a distinct correlation between moisture, pressure, and heating in
supposedly
> "dry" charcoal.
>
> So, just doing a google on "spontaneous combustion" and charcoal, finds:
>
> > Some of the materials which have a high tendency to heat are linseed oil
which is commonly used in
> > furniture refinishing, fish meal, fish oil, alfalfa meal, cod liver oil,
corn meal feeds, oiled fabrics, oiled
> > rags, peanuts, varnished fabrics, and charcoal.
> >
> > Large coal piles must be carefully prepared to prevent heating of the
material. Large industrial users
> > such as hydro generating plants and similar facilities, monitor the
moisture content, and compaction, of
> > their coal piles very closely to ensure that spontaneous heating and
ignition does not occur.
> >
>
> and from the NY fire dept.:
>
> > Keep damp or wet coals in a well ventilated area. During the drying
process, spontaneous
> > combustion can occur in confined
areas.
> >
>
> and from http://www.barbecueing.com/html/safety.html:
>
> > When cooking is over, soak the coals so to prevent their
> > re-ignition. Dispose of charcoal in a
metal container with a tight
> > fitting lid. Never keep damp or wet
charcoal in an unventilated
> > area due to the dangers of spontaneous
combustion that can
> > result from drying.
> >
>
> and from http://www.co.arlington.va.us/fire/cookout.htm
>
> > Keep damp or wet coals in a well ventilated area. During the drying
process, spontaneous
> > combustion can occur in confined areas. If a bag of
charcoal gets wet, leave it outside, away
> > from combustibles.
> >
>
> and
>
http://www.travis.af.mil/news/tailwindonline/stories_2001/august/20010824_03
.htmBy
>
> 60th Civil Engineer Squadron
> Fire Protection Flight
>
> > - Dampness in charcoal can cause spontaneous combustion. Therefore,
charcoal should be stored in a dry place
> > to protect from dampness.
> >
>
> Well, there's about 562 hits on this subject.
>
> Mind you, none of these, including the aforementioned USFS book, is
anything I'd
> consider as gospel, and all this might stem from the same contaminated
source. But it
> definitely makes me nervous ...
>
>
> --
> Harmon Seaver, MLIS
> CyberShamanix
> Work 920-203-9633
> Home 920-233-5820
> hseaver@cybershamanix.com
> http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html
>
>
>
> -
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> http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
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>
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>
>
>
>

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From elk at wananchi.com Thu Nov 8 03:24:50 2001
From: elk at wananchi.com (elk)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:17 2004
Subject: Extinguishing charcoal
In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20011106102925.01a6ddd0@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <009801c1682f$1cb8a8a0$0100007f@default>

For small quantities we leave overnight in sealed 200 l. drums. Don't forget
the pinprick hole to prevent implosion on cooling.

I deal with charred particulate matter only- please note.

For larger amounts of charred material we sprinkle water and turn
occasionally. A night watchman is an essential minder...... takes at least
24 hours to ensure quenching. Materials differ- coffee husk is very easily
quenched. Same for rice husk. Sawdust is middling-difficult and bagasse is
difficult. Sisal waste & coconut husk fibre is nigh-on impossible to quench
short of turning it into a black mud.

We try to keep moisture contents in the quenched material below 30% or we
have to waste time & effort pre-drying before the addition of binder (which
are added in a slurry) and extrusion.

rgds;

--------------------------
Elsen L. Karstad
elk@wananchi.com
www.chardust.com
Nairobi Kenya

 

----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul S. Anderson" <psanders@ilstu.edu>
To: "Harmon Seaver" <hseaver@cybershamanix.com>; <stoves@crest.org>
Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2001 6:14 PM
Subject: Re: IDD & Charcoal(was Re: More on best stoves)

> Good comment, but I am thinking of NOT using riser sleeves or other
> insulation unless it is literally dirt-cheap in Developing countries.
>
> Also, earlier comments from others commented on the need to place the
> burning charcoal quite close to the object to be heated or cooked. But in
> the gasifier, there is considerable height added by the burner chamber
> (which is not needed if burning the charcoal) and by the gasifier lower
> unit itself.
>
> So I continue with my question of how to consume the produced charcoal
> separately from the gasifier stove. More help please.
>
> To ELK: you make char and then you must cool it in order to process it
> into your Chardust briquettes. Any suggestions?
>
> Paul
>
> At 12:28 AM 11/7/01 -0600, Harmon Seaver wrote:
> > I understand the desire to save the charcoal (for resale or later
> >use) in some sectors, but for my own uses, I'm thinking it would be best
> >if it all burned. Paul mentioned this possibly being hard on the stove,
> >but I'd assume not if you're using riser sleeves or some other ceramic
> >insulation. Are there any other drawbacks or difficulties in allowing
> >the charcoal to just burn?
> >
> >--
> >Harmon Seaver, MLIS
> >CyberShamanix
> >Work 920-203-9633
> >Home 920-233-5820
> >hseaver@cybershamanix.com
> >http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html
> >
> >
> >
> >-
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> >
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> >
> >For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
> >http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm
>
> Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
> Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
> Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
> E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders
>
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From Carefreeland at aol.com Thu Nov 8 12:50:50 2001
From: Carefreeland at aol.com (Carefreeland@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:17 2004
Subject: spontanous charcoal combustion
Message-ID: <4e.15b575a.291c1fd3@aol.com>

Colliers,
It seems we are trying to figure out how a pile of stored charcoal can
burst into flames. First, embers can stay alive in charcoal for long periods
of time because the insulation factors involved. This is even more pronounced
in coal mine fires. Even a small amount of air will continue the burn. Hot
gases escaping draw fresh air in from cracks and water steam reforms the coal
at high temperatures.
The presents of water can help or hurt, depending on several factors some
of which I am not sure about when or if. First, biochemical decomposition of
the hydrocarbon and nitrogen impurities. The lower the temperature that the
char is produced at the more hydrocarbon residue that can stay. Biochemical
decomposition such as in a compost pile can cause heat build up until
probably the hydrocarbons ignite first, most likely in gas form then igniting
the charcoal.
There may be some sort of ignition taking place from chemical reactions
such as the way linseed oil ignites in oily rags. I can't help but suspect
that nitrogen is involved in there somewhere, know of no evidence to prove
this. If anybody can find the exact breakdown sequence of linseed oil this
would provide a valuable insight.
Lastly, solar ignition from solar heat buildup in a small hole could
possibly reach ignition points.
Let me shed some light on another viewpoint. I have done extensive
experiments with ignition of genuine black powder. With every case I looked
at it was always the sulfur that gasified and then ignited first, before the
charcoal. This leads me to believe it is hydrocarbon impurities in the char
lowering the ignition point dangerously. The higher temp retort char I have
done ignition tests on seems to have a high ignition point.
The highest sustained temp during the charring that the whole charge was
exposed to, would determine the volatility point of any hydrocarbon present.
In other wards say you have part of the charge you are working with only
reach F 300. When the char achieves that temp again it will again start to
release the hydrocarbon not yet released. The gas being released is the
culprit. Pure carbon has a very high ignition temp.
Now a static spark which can be very high temp, can ignite fine charcoal
dust. For this reason a bit of moisture is recommended to keep the static
charges down. In dry climates this can be the biggest hazard. When I first
learned the art of crushing black powder cakes which is the most dangerous
part, I would breath on the powder to moisten the air in the mortar and
pestle. Then I would not use any procedure producing hot friction points.
Fireworks factories use grounded touch pads to dissipate static
electricity. They also commonly use controlled humidity to dissipate the same
thing.
If one mixes potassium chlorate with sulfur, a scrape in the mortar by
the pestle can easily detonate the charge with frightening consequences. A
charge the size of your fingernail clipping can be louder than a firecracker.
(This is the bang in firecrackers today anyhow. The aluminum powder
provides the flash) If you use just charcoal alone with the potassium
chlorate, that reaction will not happen. The chlorate is releasing it's
oxygen from the heat of friction, but the ignition temp of the char is too
high, even in the presents of pure oxygen.
This again demonstrates how the lack of research into alternative fuels
can be a dangerous situation. The info gathered by positively identifying
the parameters of the reactions I just discussed would go a long way toward
fire safety in general. Why does it take a fatal explosion at a fireworks
factory to give the incentive to provide research data? Charcoal is the
oldest refined fuel, and yet has some of the most primitive research data
surrounding it. It was created first by forest fires.
Just use common sense, knowledge of the reactions, and store your char
outside, away from anything you wouldn't store a pile of coal next to, like a
chimney.
I have never heard of a truly wet pile of charcoal or coal igniting by
accident. In the State of Ohio, USA, both are stored outside, without covers
that could trap escaping gas. We handle a large percentage of the nations
coal supply. Producing, shipping, coking, and burning all included. Most of
the silos I see, are iron or brick and have drying/ventilation systems.
Careful and common sense, better than natural gas hu?
Daniel Dimiduk

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From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Thu Nov 8 19:30:06 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:17 2004
Subject: Stoves, hmmm!
In-Reply-To: <3BEA007F.35E8EA2C@cybershamanix.com>
Message-ID: <3BEB2367.75A05FF1@cybershamanix.com>

Much greater success today! Taking another look at the Reed/Larson
stove, I realized I'd placed my secondary inlets much too high, so
drilled another series of holes around the 6" stovepipe just a couple
inches above where the stovepipe goes into the coffee can. Voila! A very
nice smokeless (except for a bit at startup) fire, very hot, lasts about
45 minutes, then turns to glowing coals, then out.
I'm still not seeing blue flames, but looking down into the stove
pipe, you clearly see a lot of secondary burning at the point of the air
inlets. Still big orange/yellow flames, but they look like gas jets
coming out of all those holes.
At this point, I'm thinking that maybe I'm not getting enough
primary air -- certainly I've seen absolutely no need to regulate
primary air, all I have now is two holes in the bottom (opposing sides)
of the coffee can punched with a church key. But maybe the holes in the
bottom of the flower pot aren't enough?

--
Harmon Seaver, MLIS
CyberShamanix
Work 920-203-9633
Home 920-233-5820
hseaver@cybershamanix.com
http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html

 

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From ronallarson at qwest.net Thu Nov 8 20:06:57 2001
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:17 2004
Subject: Stoves, hmmm!
In-Reply-To: <3BEA007F.35E8EA2C@cybershamanix.com>
Message-ID: <007e01c168bb$12363500$3ff66641@computer>

Harmon (cc stovers):

See notes below.

----- Original Message -----
From: Harmon Seaver <hseaver@cybershamanix.com>
To: stoves <stoves@crest.org>
Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2001 8:49 PM
Subject: Stoves, hmmm!

> Lit off my first stove tonight. Not exactly what I'd call a roaring
> success, but it was interesting. I took a coffee can (6" x 6" more or
> less) and punched two opposing holes in it's sides at the bottom. Then I
> put in a clay flower pot, one of my wife's "bulb pots" which has not
> just the normal center hole, but also 4 smaller holes, actually, slots,
> around the edge, in the can for a fire chamber. I filled this with wood
> pellets, then topped it with a 24" length of 6" stove pipe, which had
> 1/4" holes drilled 1" apart all around about 15" from what would be the
> top of the can & pot.

RWL: 1. I would drop the 15" dimension to zero. Can't think of any reason
to have it this large. (But see below - things don't add up.)

2. The two "opposing holes" - what diameter? I would recommend making them
2-3 cm.

3. Not clear how you will be shutting these down for power output control.
I have used ceramic conical plugs (sometiimes just raw clay). With no plug
you might find the max output is more than you want.

4. Not sure that you will get enough air through the holes in the bulb pot.
Might
be worth trying without (but you will need some sort of grate to ensure air
can enter the fuel uniformly.

5. Can you describe the size of wood pellet you used?

6. It might be worth trying 2 or 3 inches height of pellets - to see the
differences.

> I tried to light the pellets by lighting a ball of crunched
> newspaper and dropping it in, but that didn't seem too effective, so
> finally took off the stove pipe, and used a propane torch, then
> reinserted the stove pipe. Once assured the pellets were indeed burning,
> I then put another stove pipe, 8 inch, over the whole thing to add
> insulation.

RWL: 7. I have found that crumpled newspaper leaves too much material
providing air resistance. I prefer (Ponderosa) pine needles. Try loose
cotton smeared with Vaseline.

> The pellets did burn fairly smoke free for over 1/2 hour, then I
> went in for awhile, to find that at one hour after lighting, there was a
> fairly heavy smoke coming out. Tried to light that, to no avail. Later I
> see a nice pot of charcoal, mostly out. I don't think I was ever getting
> a good secondary combustion (no flame at the top) but I do see a "line"
> on the inside of the pipe at the level of the secondary air holes.

RWL: 8. Getting the heavy smoke is common when pyrolysis is complete. At
that point, you have to open the primary air ports and start combusting the
bottom layer of charcoal, if that is your intent. You just didn't have
enough total air entering at the bottom. But my contention is that you
wouldn't have gotten much useful "work" out of this late charcoal combustion
anyway.

9. I would guess that you did have "good" combustion - if you are
making charcoal and having no smoke ("fairly smoke free"). The fact that
you had no flame at the top could be considered good for a cook stove. To
get taller flames you need more primary air. People will also want to know
what the ratio of maximum power output to minimum output (can measure in
terms of time durations also)

10. It will be important eventually to report the weights of input pellets
and output charcoal (25%?).

11. As you are the first to report on secondary air holes that far up, I am
not sure what is happening. It would be interesting to do this in the dark
and report on the nature of the flames. Were they attached to the 20-some
(1/4") holes? (These sound a little large and too far apart.) It sounds
to me like you might have gotten some secondary air inlet below the row of
1/4" holes. Then you got (maybe?) ignition near the (1/4") holes? Can you
describe how tight the fit was between the coffee can ("...6" more or
less...") and the 6# stove pipe? With a flame above, there will be a
substantial draft to bring secondary air in at that junction. (and maybe
even enough to have all your combustion down there. (Using a mirror allows
one to see the flame without singing one's eyebrows).

> Tomorrow I'll try a load of twigs instead of the pellets, and I'll
> insulate the area between the 6" and 8" stove pipe. Also maybe will try
> more secondary air holes lower on the pipe.

RWL 12. I have found it best to load the "twigs" vertically and pretty
tightly packed. I think you can go up to 3 or 4 cm diameter - but 1 or 2
cm should work pretty well also.

13. I think it very important to understand where your secondary air is
coming from now. You may want to remove holes instead (to keep the
temperature up). One possibility is to just close up your existing holes -
maybe they are not doing much right now. (But maybe they are.)

> I just picked up 3 nice little 15 gallon steel drums (13"x25") and
> 3 30 gallon drums (18.5"x29") to experiment with -- wish I could find
> something like a 10 gallon. But I'll burn up some tin cans before I
> start on those.
>
>
(RWL): 14. Be aware that new problems arise as you get bigger. I had
initial trouble even at the 5 gallon (20 liter) scale. (Trouble meaning
getting a short enough flame - you might think about ways to get more
secondary air

More later if you want some hints. What kW level do you want? The 6 inch
size will be several kW. How long a burn do you want?

Best of luck

Ron

 

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From psanders at ilstu.edu Thu Nov 8 20:08:45 2001
From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:17 2004
Subject: Stoves, hmmm!
In-Reply-To: <3BEA007F.35E8EA2C@cybershamanix.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20011108190754.016ff8e0@mail.ilstu.edu>

Harmon,

You are doing the experiments that many will soon be doing to see the
gasifier effect.

I think you do NOT want more primary air. It might help get a more
vigorous fire, but there is a limit to the usefulness of blazing fires for
cooking.

I suspect you will want to increase the secondary air.

Also, you said you are using 6 inch cans. I suggest going smaller to 4
inch diameter. But one of the parameters to be tested is exactly
that: impact of different diameters of the gasifier unit.

I am anxious to read of your next experiences.

Paul

At 06:29 PM 11/8/01 -0600, Harmon Seaver wrote:
> Much greater success today! Taking another look at the Reed/Larson
>stove, I realized I'd placed my secondary inlets much too high, so
>drilled another series of holes around the 6" stovepipe just a couple
>inches above where the stovepipe goes into the coffee can. Voila! A very
>nice smokeless (except for a bit at startup) fire, very hot, lasts about
>45 minutes, then turns to glowing coals, then out.
> I'm still not seeing blue flames, but looking down into the stove
>pipe, you clearly see a lot of secondary burning at the point of the air
>inlets. Still big orange/yellow flames, but they look like gas jets
>coming out of all those holes.
> At this point, I'm thinking that maybe I'm not getting enough
>primary air -- certainly I've seen absolutely no need to regulate
>primary air, all I have now is two holes in the bottom (opposing sides)
>of the coffee can punched with a church key. But maybe the holes in the
>bottom of the flower pot aren't enough?
>
>--
>Harmon Seaver, MLIS
>CyberShamanix
>Work 920-203-9633
>Home 920-233-5820
>hseaver@cybershamanix.com
>http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html
>
>
>
>-
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>For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
>http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders

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From tombreed at home.com Fri Nov 9 09:07:43 2001
From: tombreed at home.com (Thomas Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:17 2004
Subject: Fw: Stoves, hmmm!
Message-ID: <02a301c16924$7353dea0$18e5b618@lakwod3.co.home.com>

 

Dear Kat and Shivayam:

I sent the following note to CPC and Sri Lanka today to stir
up the pot after Art Lilley (vice pres CPC) sent the following message.

 
TOM

Subject: Re: Stoves, hmmm!

Dear Art and Robb;

I heard 1/2 year ago from Ray Widgewardene that the whole
board of NERD had been fired except himself and he hoped to reactivate the
project. 

Heard nothing since.  The world is full of good
intentions ... but not many doers.  So, if they aren't interested in
helping their people why should we be?  Let's forget LDCs and go
where the money is.

So, I am proceeding to "go commercial" with WoodGas CampStoves
for the U.S. market where the innovation, the interest and the money
is.

TOM

----- Original Message -----
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black">From:
Artsolar@aol.com

To: <A title=tombreed@home.com
href="mailto:tombreed@home.com">tombreed@home.com
Cc: <A title=Robbcpc@aol.com
href="mailto:Robbcpc@aol.com">Robbcpc@aol.com
Sent: Friday, November 09, 2001 4:56
AM
Subject: Fwd: Stoves, hmmm!
Wonder how many people
are working on "Turbo variation".  Never did hear whether the Sri Lanka
one got anywhere. Art

From tombreed at home.com Fri Nov 9 09:24:06 2001
From: tombreed at home.com (Thomas Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:17 2004
Subject: Fw: Stoves, hmmm! ==> Whoops
Message-ID: <02c701c16926$bd562e20$18e5b618@lakwod3.co.home.com>

 

Dear Stoves:

I meant to send this to others, not you.  Please ignore.
...

T. Reed


Dr. Thomas Reed 
The Biomass Energy Foundation 1810 Smith Rd., Golden, CO 80401303
278 0558; tombreed@home.com; <A
href="http://www.woodgas.com">www.woodgas.com
----- Original Message -----
From: <A
title=tombreed@home.com href="mailto:tombreed@home.com">Thomas Reed
To: <A title=Stoves@crest.org
href="mailto:Stoves@crest.org">Stoves
Sent: Friday, November 09, 2001 6:43 AM
Subject: Fw: Stoves, hmmm!

Dear Kat and Shivayam:

I sent the following note to CPC and Sri Lanka today to stir
up the pot after Art Lilley (vice pres CPC) sent the following message.

 
TOM

Subject: Re: Stoves, hmmm!

Dear Art and Robb;

I heard 1/2 year ago from Ray Widgewardene that the whole
board of NERD had been fired except himself and he hoped to reactivate the
project. 

Heard nothing since.  The world is full of good
intentions ... but not many doers.  So, if they aren't interested in
helping their people why should we be?  Let's forget LDCs and go
where the money is.

So, I am proceeding to "go commercial" with WoodGas CampStoves
for the U.S. market where the innovation, the interest and the money
is.

TOM

----- Original Message -----
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black">From:
Artsolar@aol.com

To: <A title=tombreed@home.com
href="mailto:tombreed@home.com">tombreed@home.com
Cc: <A title=Robbcpc@aol.com
href="mailto:Robbcpc@aol.com">Robbcpc@aol.com
Sent: Friday, November 09, 2001 4:56
AM
Subject: Fwd: Stoves, hmmm!
Wonder how many people
are working on "Turbo variation".  Never did hear whether the Sri Lanka
one got anywhere. Art

From adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in Sat Nov 10 08:32:01 2001
From: adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in (A.D. Karve)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:17 2004
Subject: Kilns for cane leaves in India
In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20011030091833.01a49190@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <011901c169ef$09ee58c0$7a51c5cb@vsnl.net.in>

Dear stovers,
I am back from New Delhi, where I spent a delightful 5 days attending the
diamond jubilee (60th year) conference of the Indian Society of Genetics and
Plant Breeding.
I have discovered one shop in Pune, that is offering stainless steel barrels
of the size that we want for about Rs. 275 each, which is even cheaper than
mild steel barrels. I do not know, if this is a one-time offer to clear old
stocks, or if the shop would supply the barrels indefinitely at this price.
A.D.Karve

----- Original Message -----
From: Paul S. Anderson <psanders@ilstu.edu>
To: A.D. Karve <adkarve@pn2.vsnl.net.in>; Apolinário J Malawene
<ajmalawene01@hotmail.com>; Bob and Karla Weldon <bobkarlaweldon@cs.com>; Ed
Francis <cfranc@ilstu.edu>; Tsamba--Alberto Julio <ajtsamba@zebra.uem.mz>;
<stoves@crest.org>
Cc: George Wolf <wolfland@gridley.org>; Nick Nayak <nicholasnayak@aol.com>;
Sandra Broadrick-Allen <sandyba@net66.com>; Jared Kosoglad
<thetarsk@hotmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 8:29 PM
Subject: Re: Kilns for cane leaves in India

 

> At 02:54 PM 11/4/01 +0530, AD Karve wrote:
> >Dear Paul,
> >inquiries made in the local market revealed that ready made stainless
steel
> >barrels were available for about Rs. 400 each, (US$ 8), whereas the mild
> >steel ones, which would have to be specially fabricated for us, would
cost
> >us about Rs. 300 (US$6) each. Our latest model of the kiln takes 9
barrels
> >at a time. The operator needs two sets of barrels, so that while one set
is
> >being heated in the kiln, the second is kept ready with trash to be
charred.
> >In this way, he does not lose time (and heat) between batches. Thus, we
need
> >Rs. 7,200 for the stainless steel retorts and Rs. 5,400 for the mild
steel
> >retorts. All other costs are the same. Thus our revised cost estimate is
> >about 200 Dollars for a kiln with stainless steel retorts and about US$
180
> >for a system having mild steel retorts.
> >The question often asked to us is why we were opting for a small manual
> >operation, when large scale systems producing even 100 tonnes of char per
> >day were available. Our answer to this question is, that the large scale
> >operation was not profitable. Agrowaste is diffused all over the
> >countryside. We have ourselves seen, how costly it is to transport it
from
> >the field to a central processing factory. In a small scale operation, it
> >becomes possible to itransport the processing machinery to the place
where
> >the agrowaste is available. Also, one needs only unskilled labour to help
> >the operator, and because the operator takes the profit from this
business,
> >he does not take a salary for himself. Therefore the overheads are less
and
> >therefore the system can generate a profit.
> >I asked our local bank about the best way to send money but they could
not
> >tell me anything concrete. I shall have to go to the head office, where
they
> >know more about foreign currency transactions.
> >I am leaving for Delhi today and shall return in the evening of the 9th.
We
> >can resume our dialogue after the 9th of November.
> >Yours A.D.Karve
>
> >
>

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From adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in Sat Nov 10 08:33:00 2001
From: adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in (A.D. Karve)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:17 2004
Subject: storing hot charcoal in an airtight container
In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20011106125510.01a58970@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <011801c169ef$0935b720$7a51c5cb@vsnl.net.in>

Dear stovers,
we used charcoal stoves in our own household, about 50 years ago. The
charcoal left in the stove after the cooking was over used to be stored in a
tin can with a lid that fitted so tightly, that one had to use a spoon
handle to pry the lid open.
A.D.Karve
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul S. Anderson <psanders@ilstu.edu>
To: <kenboak@stirlingservice.freeserve.co.uk>; Apolinário J Malawene
<ajmalawene01@hotmail.com>; Bob and Karla Weldon <bobkarlaweldon@cs.com>; Ed
Francis <cfranc@ilstu.edu>; Tsamba--Alberto Julio <ajtsamba@zebra.uem.mz>;
<stoves@crest.org>
Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2001 3:06 AM
Subject: Re: More on best stoves

Ken,

I like the idea (below). But because I must (currently) remove the
gasifier unit in order to refill it, I can just as easily dump it into a
container such as you suggest. Also, I am concerned about leaking primary
air into the gasification chamber.

However, my earlier experiences (perhaps with air leaks) was that the
charcoal did NOT extinguish (starved of oxygen). Do you have info to
share about how to smother the hot charcoal? If air leaks in from the top
(sealed-bottom cans are easy to obtain), with the charcoal extinguish
itself?

Paul

At 06:21 PM 11/6/01 +0000, you wrote:
>Paul and stove listers,
>
>Might I suggest having a charcoal storage container below your gasifier.
>This can be just another tin can but with a sliding or "butterfly valve"
>rotating lid. When the gasification is complete, the bottom of the
>gasifying can is slid or rotated and the charcoal falls into an airtight
>container and smoulders until the oxygen is consumed - but still
>contributes some heat (for a while as it extinguishes), upwards into the
>gasification zone.
>
>The container should be sized to allow charcoal from 2 or more burns to be
>stored.
>
>In this way you do not lose the stored heat or end up with wet quenched
>charcoal.
>
>Ken Boak
>
>
>_______________________________________________________________________
>Never pay another Internet phone bill!
>Freeserve AnyTime, for all the Internet access you want, day and night,
>only £12.99 per month.
>Sign-up at http://www.freeserve.com/time/anytime

Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders

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From andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com Sat Nov 10 16:24:45 2001
From: andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com (AJH)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:17 2004
Subject: IDD & Charcoal(was Re: More on best stoves)
In-Reply-To: <3BE8D483.3CBF04FC@cybershamanix.com>
Message-ID: <565rut4irqpqvso7ar1s3moe7av18q8hdl@4ax.com>

I think this message was also meant for the list, I know I sound like
a cracked record but it is not a pedantic hobby horse. I believe the
replies to poster spoils threads, causes needless recipient lists and
ultimately make dialogue on the list disfunctional.

***
On Wed, 07 Nov 2001 09:53:35 -0600, "Paul S. Anderson"
<psanders@ilstu.edu> wrote:

>ALSO, is the resultant char from a gasifier stove equivalent in "caloric
>reserve" (my made-up term) to char that is produced by other methods, such
>as what ELK is using or what AD Karve is initiating with cane leaves in India?
>
>Char is char is char is char ?????? Or is it NOT the same?

Subject: Re: IDD & Charcoal(was Re: More on best stoves)
From: "A.D. Karve" <adkarve@pn2.vsnl.net.in>
Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 16:52:18 +0530

The char from sugarcane leaves has loads of ash, most probably the
silica
and other minerals in the leaf, so that the calorific value of char
from
sugarcane leaf is only about 4500 kilocalories per kg. The wood
charcoal has
a much higher calorific value, around 6000 kcal/kg
A.D.Karve
***

To my mind this is a good reason to better control the charring
process. I realise of course that the present inverted containers in a
fire are a cheap and speedy means of clearing the fields which would
otherwise be burned to waste, I also worry about suggesting solutions
to workers in India as they look to be ahead of the game in most
departments of biomass energy.

ADKarve (sorry I don't know how better to address you), if you can
pyrolise bundles of leaves at a more constant temperature, say 270C,
to achieve the loss of strength necessary to crush them and maximise
retention of volatiles, then you should be able to maintain a high
yield. It seems generally accepted that most biomass starts with a
similar energy content of about 18MJ/(kg of dry weight -ash) or
4300kcal/kg of dry weight less ash), is there any reason these leaves
would carbonise differently from wood?

AJH
Just in from a moderately successful and clean idd burn of coal will
secondary combustion in coanda burner.

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From tombreed at home.com Sun Nov 11 09:06:31 2001
From: tombreed at home.com (Thomas Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:17 2004
Subject: "TINCANIUM" and can prices
Message-ID: <007e01c16ab9$f76e9cc0$18e5b618@lakwod3.co.home.com>

 

Dear Stovers:

I notice that the Sierra stove company is advertising a new
"lightweight" stove using titanium.  Titanium is "in" these days, whether
appropriate or not.  It can justify a high price in bicycles, golf clubs
and my tooth implants. 

Many of us are making stoves from "TINCANIUM".  The
tincan was invented before the Civil War and benefits from 150 years of
development. 

Here in Golden I can find almost any sizecan for
construction.  (However, I may not like the food in the best size
cans.  I leave that to Vivian to worry about.) 

I make no apologies for tin can stoves.  They hold up
well to heat, and if needed the hot spots can be lined with insulation.  It
is my intention to help get a billion tincanium stoves in circulation before I
die ... or die in the effort. 




~~~~~~~~~

Yesterday I got a catalogue from Freund container company, <A
href="http://www.freundcontainer.com">www.freundcontainer.com and they have
cans in lots of 100-500 with sealing machines etc.  However, I was
surprised to find that an ordinary 3" diameter X 4 7/16 " unsealed can with lids
costs $138 for a case of 200, or $.69 each!  This can't be the cost of food
cans at the 10,000 level.  Must be more like

So, how do we get cans of selected sizes in bulk short of
eating a LOT of beans?  (I can get 1 and 3 lb coffee cans from my church in
quantity - Unitarians talk a lot and drink a LOT of coffee.) 

Puzzled!

Yours for a billion tincanium
stoves...       TOM
REED              
BEF

Dr. Thomas
Reed  The Biomass Energy Foundation 1810 Smith Rd., Golden, CO
80401303 278 0558; <A
href="mailto:tombreed@home.com">tombreed@home.com; <A
href="http://www.woodgas.com">www.woodgas.com

BEGIN:VCARD
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FN:Thomas B Reed
NICKNAME:Tom
ORG:Biomass Energy Foundation;Publication, Consulting, Engineering
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URL;HOME:http://www.woodgas.com
URL;WORK:http://www.woodgas.com
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EMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:tombreed@home.com
REV:20011111T140549Z
END:VCARD

 

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From pdebruic at mgmt.purdue.edu Sun Nov 11 11:19:54 2001
From: pdebruic at mgmt.purdue.edu (DeBruicker, Paul)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:17 2004
Subject: cooking information
Message-ID: <8D687A03B4884740A0B73680C45C07881C0304@kranmail.mgmt.purdue.edu>

Hi All,

Does anyone know of a database/information source containing
information on cooking methods and vessels worldwide? Specifically I
would be interested in learning about what size pots/pans people use and
what they cook in their pots and pans. I realize that this is a
discussion group for stove technologies and my question is off topic,
but it seems to me like the designers whould have their end users in
mind when starting work. So hopefully, someone can point me in the
correct direction.

Thanks for your consideration!

Paul DeBruicker

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From Carefreeland at aol.com Sun Nov 11 21:22:13 2001
From: Carefreeland at aol.com (Carefreeland@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:17 2004
Subject: "TINCANIUM" and can prices
Message-ID: <a8.1863b75.29208c48@aol.com>

Tom R.
To find sources of cans, talk to the restaurant managers where you eat
regularly. If that doesn't work, try the foodservice companies that serve
them, and follow the tin can trail back to the end user. How about school
cafeterias?
You can thank people like my Dad for the research into tin cans. Dad
started out in the late 1940s working in the lab at US Steel, doing work with
can coatings.
He liked to talk about the huge set of shelves in a warehouse they had,
where they would store food for decades. He told me that they used canned
tomatoes as the standard test food, because they had the most destructive
acid of any food canned.
His job at one point was to check for exploded cans and ones with the
tops popping out. The can's test number was recorded with the date of
failure. The excitement was if he was near a can when it went off like a
grenade.
Why do I remember this stuff?
The history of the tin can is pretty interesting. It was developed
primarily as a means to get food to the front lines during wartime. Many
battles were won or lost due to the availability of intact canned food for
the army. This is just one more way the history of iron and steel determined
history in general.
Dan Dimiduk

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From crispin at newdawn.sz Mon Nov 12 06:08:23 2001
From: crispin at newdawn.sz (Crispin)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:17 2004
Subject: That pyrometer
In-Reply-To: <OE15cGgx32IwIjptlXt0000f84a@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <006301c16b05$7a62fa40$451bfea9@home>

Dear Chris

About that little digital pyrometer on my web wite:

That little sucker cost my friend (from whom I borrowed it) about 800 Rands
which is about $90. It is not actually very special. It is a temperature
sensitive controller and it works like this:

There are two contacts on the side to which a wire is connected. The wire
can be any of a number of things but normally is two different metals with a
high melting point. The bare ends are welded together (I use brazing) so
that it makes a thermocouple. There is a woven asbestos sleeve about 4mm in
diameter over both the wires. It is about 1.5 metres long.

There are two power supply contacts on the unit (230 VAC) for power in.
There are other contacts: they are for internal relays. One can be through
of as "Coarse". The other output can be thought of as "Fine"

You will notice on the front there are a few buttons. The unit can be
programmed as follows:

A temperature is entered as the lower limit, say 100 C. That will control
the Coarse setting. Another temp is selected as the nearer or most
desirable limit, say 105 C. Then comes the temp you actually want, say 108
C. Above that there is a desirable upper limit, say 111 C, and an upper
limit of 119.

In a process control the temperature of a vat, for example, is held in
between the 105-111 range with a heater or cooling fan, depending on
conditions. If the temp get too far off, it will turn on a large heater of
larger cooling fan.

The little green triangular lights on the display indicate where the
temperature is by either blinking or being on steady.

The advantage for researchers on stoves is that you can leave the unit
unattended while a pot is being boiled and a timer switched on by this
device will record when it passed certain preset points like the local
boiling point. It will read to 999 C.

I understand they are readily available from people who also sell panel
instruments and contactors, PLC's (progammable logic controllers) and motor
controllers.

Regards
Crispin

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From pverhaart at optusnet.com.au Mon Nov 12 06:22:03 2001
From: pverhaart at optusnet.com.au (Peter Verhaart)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:17 2004
Subject: cooking information
In-Reply-To: <8D687A03B4884740A0B73680C45C07881C0304@kranmail.mgmt.purdue.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011112211150.00a87e20@mail.optusnet.com.au>

Hi Paul,

Your question is very relevant. I don't know of any databases of
cooking vessels. During the life of the Woodburning Stove Group we found
that in an African country, I think it was Niger, we needed large burners
for their large cooking pots because cooking was done for extended families.
Sorry I can't give relevant information, possibly Prasad (who is very
likely to read your posting) will be able to point you in the right direction.

Cheers

Piet

At 11:19 11/11/01 -0500, you wrote:
>Hi All,
>
>
> Does anyone know of a database/information source containing
>information on cooking methods and vessels worldwide? Specifically I
>would be interested in learning about what size pots/pans people use and
>what they cook in their pots and pans. I realize that this is a
>discussion group for stove technologies and my question is off topic,
>but it seems to me like the designers whould have their end users in
>mind when starting work. So hopefully, someone can point me in the
>correct direction.
>
>
>Thanks for your consideration!
>
>
>Paul DeBruicker
>
>-
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From tombreed at home.com Mon Nov 12 07:25:07 2001
From: tombreed at home.com (Thomas Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:17 2004
Subject: Self taught AND College taught....
In-Reply-To: <014201c16609$cc2fad60$9ff76641@computer>
Message-ID: <00e201c16b74$ceae6ac0$18e5b618@lakwod3.co.home.com>

 

Dear All:

Andrew Hegge modestly said...

>Well being self taught is not to be recommended, I blew my
chances offurther education when I was 19. I do often lose enthusiasm
because oflack of funds for developing ideas and whilst other bodies seem
tofritter opportunities away, we shall get there in the end.It is
said that the "School of Hard Knocks" has the lowest entry fees, but the highest
course credit costs. 

However, a "classical engineering education" is only the
beginning to understanding reality in all its subtleties and
glories.

It sounds to me like Andrew has completed both courses now.

 
TOM REED

From tombreed at home.com Mon Nov 12 07:33:50 2001
From: tombreed at home.com (Thomas Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:17 2004
Subject: Pot sizes
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011112211150.00a87e20@mail.optusnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <00f701c16b76$12867840$18e5b618@lakwod3.co.home.com>

Dear Piet and All;

And in Ethiopia they mostly cook pancakes on the Enjira cooker - 60 cm in
diameter! - to eat the rest of their food with...

TOM REED

Subject: Re: cooking information

> Hi Paul,
>
> Your question is very relevant. I don't know of any databases of
> cooking vessels. During the life of the Woodburning Stove Group we found
> that in an African country, I think it was Niger, we needed large burners
> for their large cooking pots because cooking was done for extended
families.
> Sorry I can't give relevant information, possibly Prasad (who is very
> likely to read your posting) will be able to point you in the right
direction.
>
> Cheers
>
> Piet
>
>
> At 11:19 11/11/01 -0500, you wrote:
> >Hi All,
> >
> >
> > Does anyone know of a database/information source containing
> >information on cooking methods and vessels worldwide? Specifically I
> >would be interested in learning about what size pots/pans people use and
> >what they cook in their pots and pans. I realize that this is a
> >discussion group for stove technologies and my question is off topic,
> >but it seems to me like the designers whould have their end users in
> >mind when starting work. So hopefully, someone can point me in the
> >correct direction.
> >
> >
> >Thanks for your consideration!
> >
> >
> >Paul DeBruicker
> >
> >-
> >Stoves List Archives and Website:
> >http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
> >http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
> >
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> >
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> >
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>
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From tombreed at home.com Mon Nov 12 07:56:55 2001
From: tombreed at home.com (Thomas Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:18 2004
Subject: Fw: IDD & Charcoal(was Re: More on best stoves)
Message-ID: <011f01c16b79$4755ba60$18e5b618@lakwod3.co.home.com>

Dear Stovers and Gasifiers:

Andrew Hegge suggests I should have posted my original message to all. Here
it is...

TOM

>Dear Andrew:
>
>Your last message about posters spoiling threads was confusing. Please
>explicate...
Dear Tom

I did not mean this, I said "replies to poster" I was not referring to
people but the feature in the header which causes replies to be sent
back to the poster.

Your post may be a case in point, the whole list may be interested in
reading your reasons why my proposal to ADKarve may not work, however
you posted your reply to me and not the stoves list, was this
intentional?

I reply to many e-mails, I generally hit the reply button without
looking at the address, so if I respond to stoves or gasification
posts I find my messages do not go to the list, by the time I see my
mistake I have lost enthusiasm to correct it. I infer that this
happens to others also.
>
>As to charring temperature, it might be more useful to torrefy at 240 to
270
>in terms of preserving energy, but

Trouble with torrefication is that the enthalpy of the system means
there is a need for thermal input other than the raw material, the
torrefied wood retains too much of the energy, its offgas is materials
like acetic acid which do not contribute enough when burnt.
>
>1) At this temperature the reaction goes exothermic and will carry right
up
>to 440 C for charcoal and

In a perfectly insulated system you may be right, however there are
ways of controlling this temperature.

>
>2) The resulting fuel will still have lots of volatiles which may be
>unacceptable in some charcoal uses.

Which is exactly why I have been careful in my recent posts to show
the different requirements (and hence lower yields) of charcoal for
smelting. An Australian authority on the subject works here, he was
appalled that our "barbecue" charcoal needed to maintain a secondary
flame to burn off volatiles, most punters here accept this and
outdoors this is not a problem. This chap, who helped design the lurgi
simcoa retort/kiln in Oz had decided to cook his Xmas turkey indoors,
having been used to metallurgical grade char he proceeded to fill the
hose with white smoke and ended up cooking in the front porch, exposed
to the rain.

One offshoot of carbonising agricultural wastes is to determine what
the analysis of the char is, also we have talked briquettes and
extruding using expensive power, I think there is scope here for less
power hungry means of making a "green" coal chunk.
>
>Glad your idd stove is working on coal, keep us posted.

It poses a lot of interesting problems but does not seem to have much
interest on the list, I shall discuss my ideas with Tami who posed the
questions originally. IDD seems to offer a clean start up on coal,
thereafter because of the lack of volatiles it is necessary to operate
in an CO generating mode, which of cause has implications of non
natural draft.

I think this should have been on the stoves list.
AJH

 

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From tombreed at home.com Mon Nov 12 07:59:08 2001
From: tombreed at home.com (Thomas Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:18 2004
Subject: Fw: More on best stoves
Message-ID: <012901c16b79$925f0480$18e5b618@lakwod3.co.home.com>

 

> Tom,
>
> You need to post your message (below) to the entire Stoves list.
>
> More info tomorrow about my efforts this weekend.
>
> Not to MZ in December. Better in March 2002.
>
> Paul
>
> At 06:53 AM 11/11/01 -0700, you wrote:
> >Dear Paul:
> >
> > > 1. I obtain strong flame and very little evident soot during the
> > > gasification/combustion stage (prior to the burning of the charcoal).
The
> > > AMOUNT of heat from the gasification process is impressive and screams
to
> > > me that charcoal production WITHOUT USEFUL BURNING OF THE GASSES is
where
> > > tremendous waste occurs.
> >
> >ABSOLUTELY! JUST THINK HOW MUCH ENERGY HAS BEEN WASTED AND IS BEING
WASTED
> >EVERY DAY IN MAKING CHARCOAL. ALSO CHARCOAL MAKING TRANSFERS THE SMOKE
OF A
> >WOOD FIRE FROM THE USER TO ALL OF HUMANITY. SHOULD BE OUTLAWED
EVERYWHERE.
> >
> > > Comment: I am becoming even more highly convinced of the value of
the
> > > gasification process (ala the Reed-Larson style of IDD gasification).
I
> > > believe that the fuel making processes of Richard Stanley (Legacy
> > > Foundation) could produce appropriate fuel "units" (as in
mini-briquettes)
> > > from unconsolidated biomass, but that is a separate question.
> >
> >LOVE IT! WISH I COULD GET MY HANDS ON A FEW OF THE CHINESE MULTIHOLE
COAL
> >BRIQUETTES
> >
> > > 2. Size (amount) of charcoal after gasification seems to be
substantial (
> > > more than 50% of the volume of fuel pellets used for gasification).
> >
> >THERE IS A SHRINKAGE OF ABOUT 30% DURING CHARCOAL MFGR, BUT THE LOSS OF
> >WEIGHT IS 80%, SO UNCONSOLIDATED CHARCOAL HAS HIGH MASS ENERGY DENSITY,
BUT
> >LOW VOLUME ENERGY DENSITY.
> >
> > > 3. I need "reasonable" air supply to ignite the process, but later I
need
> > > to restrict the primary air to VERY low amounts. Currently, the air
> >leaks
> > > in my gasifier container are excessive, so I am trying to seal it
better
> >at
> > > the bottom. I believe that a 1/8 th inch ( 4 mm.) diameter hole could
be
> > > more than enough air for the 4 inch diameter gasifier chamber I am
> > > using. Someone wrote recently that the some oxygen is released in the
> > > gasification process, thereby "fueling" the primary fire. I am sure
that
> > > amount of oxygen will depend on the nature of the biomass.
> > >
> >THE OXYGEN IN THE FUEL IS ALREADY REACTED, SO NOT TO BE CONSIDERED AN
> >OXIDANT. HOWEVER, CHARCOAL MAKING IS EXOTHERMIC FROM DRY WOOD, SO
> >INCREDIBLY SMALL AMOUNTS OF AIR REQUIRED IN IDD STOVE WITH DRY WOOD.
HARD
> >TO REGULATE THAT SMALL AN AMOUNT. MAYBE TWO VALVES, ONE FOR START AND A
> >MUCH SMALLER ONE FOR CONTROL.
> >
> >WITH WETTER WOOD IT IS HARDER TO LIGHT, BUT ONCE LIT MUCH EASIER TO
CONTROL!
> >
> >
> > > Question #1: does anyone have understandable info on this source of
> > > oxygen from within the fuel, or is it not an issue?
> > >
> > > 3. I am able to easily save the charcoal. I do NOT want to burn it
in
> >the
> > > same gasifier unit because it is inefficient there and I suspect that
the
> > > heat-stress reduces the life of the gasifier unit.
> >
> >NEEDS TO BE BETTER MADE AND CONTROLLED, BUT CAN DO IN THE FORCED DRAFT
> >VARIETY.
> >
> >My alternatives are A.
> > > to quench the charcoal in water, or B. to place the hot charcoal into
some
> > > more appropriate stove. (and for what purpose in the stove for
charcoal?
> > > slow cooking? warming? grilling steaks (not in Developing
Societies)?
> >or
> > > what? )
> > >
> >DO YOU USE A FUEL MAGAZINE? THAT CAN HELP BY BEING EASILY REMOVED AND
> >SEQUESTERED.
> >
> > > Therefore: Question #2. Do we have a (or several) appropriate
stoves
> >for
> > > use of the charcoal? For example, would the charcoal be highly
> > > appropriate for some type of oven for bread, etc.? Charcoal needs to
be
> > > close to the object being warmed, right? Basically, I am saying that
I
> > > want the charcoal removed from the gasifier? What do I do with it?
> > >
> >HEAT IS HEAT. CHARCOAL IS A VERY DIFFERENT FUEL FROM WOOD. IF YOU CAN
> >BRIQUETTE IT, IS IS EASY TO STORE AND SHIP. LOTS OF PEOPLE HAVE USES.
> >
> >I TOO REGRET THE CHARCOAL.
> > >
> > > I have made a list to issues to be considered in constructing one or
more
> > > "marketable" (meaning appropriate) gasifier stoves:
> > >
> > > Priority issues:
> > >
> > > Diameter of gasifier (lower unit)
> > > burner (upper unit)
> > > Height
> > > gasifier
> > > burner
> >
> >SO MANY CHOICES! IF YOU UNDERSTAND THE PRINCIPLES IT IS EASIER TO APPLY
THE
> >PRACTICE. I HOPE TO WRITE A MANUAL SOON.
> >
> > > Overlap of burner bottom down over the top of the gasifier, which
relates
> >to--
> > > Secondary air controls
> > > Primary air control
> > > Fuel types:
> > > "standard fuel #1" I have chosen wood pellets (as for pellet stoves)
> > > because this fuel is available, cheap, consistent quality, needs no
> > > processing by me, easily measured.
> > > "standard fuel #2" To be defined
> > > (left for later): hundreds of other fuels that are difficult to
replicate
> > > in many areas, but that need to be eventually tested.
> > >
> > > Fuel amounts (related to diameter of the gasifier, height of the fill,
and
> > > the desired length of the burn)
> > >
> > > OF COURSE EMISSIONS AND EFFICIENCY need to be considered, but that
will
> > > need to be done by others after we get some better idea of the basic
> > > physical structure of the stove.
> > >
> >WHAT IS YOUR CURRENT FAVORITE CONFIGURATION? HAVE YOU BEEN SUCCESSFUL IN
> >REDUCING THE CHIMNEY/BURNER DIAMETER RELATIVE TO THE STOVE?
> >
> >
> > > Secondary issues:
> > >
> > > Materials of construction of the components:
> > > Aluminum (easy to work with, transfers heat well, but ultimately too
> > > expensive?)
> > > Iron/steel/ "tin cans" (readily available).
> > > mud/clay/etc. (just to keep in mind at present)
> >
> >YESTERDAY I INVENTED THE NAME "TINCANIUM" FOR OUR MATERIALS OF
CONSTRUCTION.
> >THE TIN CAN HAS HAD 150 YEARS OF DEVELOPMENT.
> >
> >I CAN GET ALMOST ANY SIZE AT THE SUPERMARKET. HOWEVER, I HAVEN'T FOUND A
> >REASONABLE SOURCE FOR BUYING IN QUANTITY. CATALOGS FROM SUPPLIERS OF
> >100-500 WANT $.40 - $1 PER CAN.
> >
> > > Taper of the component parts (does it make a difference?)
> > > Forced-air enhancements (options to consider)
> > > Multiple burners (side by side for bigger stoves)
> > > Physical appearance, including the "support" of the the upper burner,
> > > complete with a stove-top.
> > >
> > > This is not a small list, and maybe other issues should be added.
> > >
> > > My experimentation is quite simple and I hope to explain in a week or
two
> > > what I am doing so that others (read: you) can replicate and further
> > > experiment along with me.
> > >
> > > Meanwhile, may I suggest that you start saving all metal cans with
> > > diameters from 3 to 7 inches. (smile :-)) ).
> > >
> > > Paul
> > >
> >SHOULD I RESERVE EARLY DECEMBER FOR MOZAMBIQUE?
> >
> >ONWARD............ tom
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
> > > Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
> > > Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
> > > E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders
> > >
> > >
> > > -
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> > >
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> > >
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> > >
>
> Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
> Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
> Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
> E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders
>

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From andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com Mon Nov 12 08:58:44 2001
From: andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com (AJH)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:18 2004
Subject: coal burning for cooking
Message-ID: <7kjvut0a0snr3fl9utup8eco7mje90d0p2@4ax.com>

Tami

I need to revisit the concept of coal burning for cooking as opposed
to coal burning for heating.

In practice in coal using areas is there ever a need for cooking heat
without room heat?

I ask because size is important, heat losses seem to relate to surface
area and power to cubic capacity so small is lossy. I am used to
playing with dry biomass, this has a bearing because it releases a lot
of highly combustible gases for a small input of primary combustion
air, heat losses at the pyrolysis front are of minor importance so
most energy is released in the diffuse flame.

Whilst I can cleanly start a coal IDD stove with biomass, once the
volatiles from the biomass are exhausted it is not immediately
possible to cleanly burn the offgas from the coal in a small stove. I
am certain this is because we cannot get enough draft in the absence
of a chimney and any volatiles are diluted by CO2. The obvious work
around is a fan of some sort to increase primary air once the coal is
lit, this then converts the stove to a CO generator, the CO increases
the calorific value of the offgas and thus enables a clean flame, this
I can readily demonstrate. This then brings a drawback, the simple
steel container will not withstand the heat of the hot coals for long,
also heat losses in the primary zone become enormous. I can go on with
my thoughts but do not wish to waste my time unnecessarily as woody
biomass is my main rawstock.

I think details like superficial velocity, insulation, secondary air
control and heat resistance are going to be more critical with burning
coal on the small scale. I can envisage a modified IDD tin can stove
for this use but it will need more careful building than I am used to.

AJH

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From GITONGA at itdg.or.ke Mon Nov 12 11:51:04 2001
From: GITONGA at itdg.or.ke (Stephen Gitonga)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:18 2004
Subject: cooking information
Message-ID: <FAB0B607D5E0D41195B700508BF3A332325A95@14CCK4A059>

Hi paul

There is a documentation called stove images: a documentation of improved
and traditional stoves in Africa and latin America writen by Beatrix
Westhoff and Dorsi German. Iwas was finaced by the Commission of the
European Communities Brussels, GTZ and SFF of Frankfurt am Main, Germany.

I am not sure but I guess you can get a copy in one of the organisations I
have mentioned

Good luck

Stephen Gitonga

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Verhaart [mailto:pverhaart@optusnet.com.au]
Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 2:20 PM
To: stoves@crest.org
Subject: Re: cooking information

Hi Paul,

Your question is very relevant. I don't know of any databases of
cooking vessels. During the life of the Woodburning Stove Group we found
that in an African country, I think it was Niger, we needed large burners
for their large cooking pots because cooking was done for extended families.
Sorry I can't give relevant information, possibly Prasad (who is very
likely to read your posting) will be able to point you in the right
direction.

Cheers

Piet

At 11:19 11/11/01 -0500, you wrote:
>Hi All,
>
>
> Does anyone know of a database/information source containing
>information on cooking methods and vessels worldwide? Specifically I
>would be interested in learning about what size pots/pans people use and
>what they cook in their pots and pans. I realize that this is a
>discussion group for stove technologies and my question is off topic,
>but it seems to me like the designers whould have their end users in
>mind when starting work. So hopefully, someone can point me in the
>correct direction.
>
>
>Thanks for your consideration!
>
>
>Paul DeBruicker
>
>-
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From LINVENT at aol.com Mon Nov 12 12:54:51 2001
From: LINVENT at aol.com (LINVENT@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:18 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Self taught AND College taught....
Message-ID: <20.1ed7b6c9.292166de@aol.com>

The chief mathematician at Sandia National Laboratories had a comment on his
door. He had PhD's from Caltech, MIT and Stanford.

"A thermometer is not the only thing graduated in degrees with no brains."
He has since left Sandia and moved to Kansas to become a farmer.

Sincerely,
Leland T. Taylor
President
Thermogenics Inc.
7100-2nd St. NW, Albuquerque, New Mexico 87107
phone 505-761-1454 fax 505-761-1456
Attached files are zipped and can be decompressed with <A
HREF="http://www.aladdinsys.com/expander/">www.aladdinsys.com/expander/ </A>

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From Tami.Bond at noaa.gov Mon Nov 12 13:41:27 2001
From: Tami.Bond at noaa.gov (Tami Bond)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:18 2004
Subject: Self taught AND College taught....
Message-ID: <1884f19e3d.19e3d1884f@pmel.noaa.gov>

Stovers,

Some off-topic meandering thoughts on education triggered by Tom's

> However, a "classical engineering education" is only the beginning
> to understanding reality in all its subtleties and glories.

There never has been and never will be an academic substitute for
observation and intuition.

When I taught a Solar class last spring, I was appalled at the number
of students who believed they couldn't understand the rudiments of heat
transfer because they hadn't had a class in it. By age 21 these kids
already needed some un-learning. Me too! Now that I have passed through
my "college-taught" years I hope to observe and un-learn and re-learn
and yet not throw out the baby (magical & graceful equations) with the
bathwater (education-induced blinders).

Every day I am grateful for the wisdom you provide-- whatever its
source. Every tidbit helps to guide my journey and those of others.

Onward stoves!

Tami

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From Tami.Bond at noaa.gov Mon Nov 12 14:01:51 2001
From: Tami.Bond at noaa.gov (Tami Bond)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:18 2004
Subject: coal burning for cooking
Message-ID: <158bc19fc9.19fc9158bc@pmel.noaa.gov>

 

Andrew

Glad to have somebody thinking about it.

> In practice in coal using areas is there ever a need for cooking heat
> without room heat?

Sure. China goes from latitude ~30 N to ~47 N-- a huge range of
climates. In the South it's pretty warm and little heat is needed. I've
had Chinese people tell me there is no coal use in the South, only
biofuel, but it's not true. In some seasons, there are also other needs
for heat: some "improved" stoves with chimneys were rejected because
the villagers could not dry crops in the exhaust.

> I ask because size is important, heat losses seem to relate to surface
> area and power to cubic capacity so small is lossy.

Got it. I wonder if the insulating material (ash mixture) used by Dean
could help us here.

> Whilst I can cleanly start a coal IDD stove with biomass, once the
> volatiles from the biomass are exhausted it is not immediately
> possible to cleanly burn the offgas from the coal in a small
> stove. I am certain this is because we cannot get enough draft in the
> absence of a chimney and any volatiles are diluted by CO2.

Again, this depends on the coal. I think that high-volatile coal may
not behave this way-- the offgas may be combustible. It may be a
question of too little draft-- but on the other hand, if the draft is
too high, you dilute the volatiles below the flammability limit and/or
reduce the temperature. (I haven't seen your coal burning, so hard to
envision.) I've had situations where I put a fan on and *increase* the
smoke because I increase the flame height. (Classical 'theory' says
that smoke goes with flame height in a diffusion flame, makes sense if
the soot is formed at the reaction zone = flame surface.)

> The obvious work
> around is a fan of some sort to increase primary air once the coal is
> lit, this then converts the stove to a CO generator, the CO increases
> the calorific value of the offgas and thus enables a clean flame, this
> I can readily demonstrate.

This sounds more controllable. I think that we can't rely on volatile
combustion-- diffusion flames, especially in this environment, are too
hard to manage!

> I can go on with
> my thoughts but do not wish to waste my time unnecessarily as woody
> biomass is my main rawstock.

Glad to have whatever thoughts are worth your time ;-)
I think that "Lessons from woody biomass" are worth applying to coal
and I am willing to try them.

My feeling is that biomass is probably more predictable than coal.
There are a few different methods of fixing carbon by plants, but it is
pretty much the same process. Coal, on the other hand, has undergone a
wide range of geologic thermal processing, either in presence or
absence of oxygen, with resulting different volatile contents. These
are regional differences, but could also be different by coal seam
within the same region! A successful coal stove will have to be
flexible.

Tami

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From cree at dowco.com Mon Nov 12 14:43:17 2001
From: cree at dowco.com (John Olsen)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:18 2004
Subject: composition of woodsmoke
Message-ID: <003301c16bb1$dbc097a0$9e8457d1@olsen>

 

I have been asked for the
composition of  "pure woodsmoke", as it relates to the burning of dry
sawdust briquettes.
This study <A
href="http://www.burningissues.org/table2.htm">http://www.burningissues.org/table2.htm has
some scientific analysis.
I was wondering if anyone
has a reference for an updated analysis, as I am assuming most tests are done
with the bark on, and the moisture content high?
regards
John
Olsen
Cree Industries 
SHIMADA/Heatlog

From psanders at ilstu.edu Mon Nov 12 15:36:50 2001
From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:18 2004
Subject: coal burning for cooking
In-Reply-To: <158bc19fc9.19fc9158bc@pmel.noaa.gov>
Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20011112143821.01a7b630@mail.ilstu.edu>

At 11:00 AM 11/12/01 -0800, Tami Bond wrote:

>Sure. China goes from latitude ~30 N to ~47 N-- a huge range of
>climates. In the South it's pretty warm and little heat is needed.

Tami is correct except that the latitudes go from 20 N to 53 N, an even
bigger range.

Sorry to be picky, it is just the geographer in me that makes me do it!!!

Paul
Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders

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From psanders at ilstu.edu Mon Nov 12 16:15:47 2001
From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:18 2004
Subject: Gasifier experiments - fuels - 11 Nov 01
Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20011112150801.00d0af00@mail.ilstu.edu>

Stovers,

Results of this past weekend testing of the gasifier stove.

Two topics: Fuel issues and Stove structure

Fuel Issues:

1. My starter fuel is highly successful. I use shredded briquettes
(sawdust and paper pulp about 50/50) as the solid part of the starter
fuel. I dampen the solid with Torch Fuel (not flashlight “torches”, but
Tiki-type patio torches that burn. Specific type is citronella). I place
in a plastic jar from grated parmesan cheese. The lid has a shaker side
(with flap) and a bigger opening on the other side, with flap. EASY to
use, always handy. Tom Reed showed me a jar of charcoal bits soaked in
alcohol. Will also work. Shake a small amount into the top of the
gasifier chamber on top of the fuel load. Purpose is to have “ready
volatile gases” to start the burn process. Drop in a match and it will
light. Very reliable. I suspect that local products such as meat grease
or kerosene would also serve as the volatile. The starter should NOT be
such that it will fall down into the lower parts of the fuel load, but
avoiding that is more a function of the fuel load than of the starter
fuel. DO NOT think that the liquid “lighter fuel” for American-style
bar-b-ques is the same thing. It is too flammable and it does not have
any solid particles that hold the starter fuel on the top of the fuel
load. Do NOT spray in a liquid because it will drip lower than where the
ignition is to be, at the top of the fuel load.

2. I needed to re-light several experiments. I carefully (do not put your
face over it) put some starter fuel into the gasifier chamber. I almost
always needed to drop in a lighted match because the glowing charcoals of
the partially consumed fuel load would NOT ignite my starter fuel. But
the lighted starter fuel would gasify readily, start the up draft, and
restart the gasification of the fuel load.

3. I attempted to light a second gasifier by dumping some (even plenty) of
the glowing charcoals of the earlier burn. NO
ignition. Interpretation: Not hot enough to ignite a fuel load that is at
ambient temperature, especially since there was no established
up-draft. Also, the charcoal actually “insulates” the fuel load from the
starter fuel that I would place on top of the charcoal. We need flame in
contact with the fuel load to bring it to a point of gasification.

4. I continue to either quench my resultant charcoal or spread it and
sprinkle with water. Some of it I have dried in a skillet to top of my
gasifier stove.

5. I use mainly the pellets for pellet stoves. Densified, hard, from
sawdust, about ¼ inch (6 mm) diameter. Quite dry. Light easily with the
starter fuel. My measure is a 15 ounce (about 400 gram) standard
American-type can from canned foods. This was from ravioli, but most
vegetable cans are the same size. I have it level on top, not heaping. I
have not weighed it yet, but one can-full (net weight) is probably about
400 grams, considering the density of the pellet and the air-spaces between
them in the can.

6. Consistently I get about 45% by volume of resultant charcoal, in nice
reduced-size pellet shapes. I estimate that the resultant weight is also
less then half, if dry, (but about equal weight if quenched and measured
wet, which would make it about 50% water by weight, and Tom Reed said 25%
water would not be bad.) I have NOT tried to burn any of the resultant
charcoal.

7. I also experimented with other biomass fuels:
A. Twigs from my back yard, NOT pre-dried, sizes up to half inch (1.2 cm)
diameter and ~8 cm long, most pieces were smaller. As Ron suggested, I
placed them vertically in my gasifier (4 inch = 10 cm diameter), but was
not happy with the density of the packing, so I poured about 100 grams of
pellets into the container to fill the gaps. Put on starter fuel, lit, and
“voila”, a normal gasifier fire. The resultant charcoal had (as expected)
the shape of the twigs clearly preserved, but charred though to the center.

B. Similar to above, but with seed pods of locust trees. I scooped up
some in front to my vehicle after church on Sunday (qualifies for “random”
selection). Mixed with pellets. Very good burn. Charred beans seen in
pods afterwards.

C. Similar to above, but with birch bark that I brought from Canada about
3 or 4 years ago. Wow does that stuff burn!!

D. Cut-up and broken-up biomass briquettes (Richard Stanley type) of 30 %
sawdust and another of about 70% sawdust. Did NOT put in
pellets. Reasonable burn, but shorter duration (less dense materials) and
the char product was more flake-powder-fluff stuff, but charred all the way
through. (This did NOT have a whole briquette and did NOT have a center
hole for the burn, as was discussed in previous months about the importance
of the hole.)

Summary on fuels: I am impressed by the successes. I want to cook some
meals with biomass collected from my own back yard. (Just no time to do it
yet.)

##### end of message about the fuels… Separate message about the stoves
to follow when I can get it typed. All is VERY positive. #######

Paul

 

Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
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From psanders at ilstu.edu Tue Nov 13 00:24:02 2001
From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:18 2004
Subject: Part 2 of stoves experiments: equipment - 01-11-11
Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20011112232706.01a89ed0@mail.ilstu.edu>

Stovers,    PART 2 of 
results of this past weekend testing of the gasifier stove.

Second  topic:  Stove structure

I have more gasifier stoves than I can fit on my picnic table in my
backyard.   Here is what I have been doing:

1.  Materials: 
A.      the Reed-Larson
original NC IDD gasifier:  5 inch inside diameter
B.      double-walled metal
heat-duct tube (aluminum inside 4 inch diameter and galvanized steel
outside 7 inch diameter), about 7 inches high.
C.      aluminum-foil
extendable duct tubing:  bought at hardware store, is “extendable”
to 3 times its length, easy to fold shut at bottom, not very strong, but
does the job, diameter 4 inches (10 cm)
D.      “air-sticks”: 
I took aluminum pipe (about half-inch diameter), drilled 5 five holes of
3/8th
inch (5 mm) diameter in a row about 2 cm apart, and could plug the open
end (almost always plugged in the experiments).  An air stick is
thrust into each of the gasification chambers (but not the Reed-Larson
one) near the bottom.  Sort of looks like a big smoking pipe, the
kind Popeye uses to suck in the spinach when he is trapped.
E.      sticky-backed
aluminum foil tape: from hardware store.  Used to seal wherever I
thought air might be leaking into the system.
F.      tin cans: 4 inch
diameter, 3 inch diameter (is the 15 oz standard food can), and 2.75 inch
diameter (is the typical Campbells soup can),
G.      And one small tube about
1 to 1.2 inches in diameter, 5 inches tall, rolled of standard aluminum
foil, and sealed with the tape.
H.      The upper chamber
(for burning the gasses) was made in several sizes from tin cans, foil
extendable tubing, and a hand-rolled rectangle of vinyl-ized aluminum,
sealed on the seam with the aluminum foil tape.
I.      3 concrete blocks 15
inches tall arranged in a “U” shape serverd as the support for a metal
grill upon which I placed a skillet and things to be warmed /
cooked.  The grill was usually about an inch above the top of the
burner unit.  It was not maximized and was not studied in the
experiments.  It was just there to hold the skillet.
Estimated costs, about $20 dollars because much of the stuff found in my
garage.

2.      Most of the
experiments were with the 4 inch (10 cm) chambers, and using the fuels
previously discussed.

3.      The 5 holes provided
plenty of air.  After ignition of the fuel, I could cut the air down
to only 2 holes, or 3 in some case.  One hole always extinguished
the fire in the upper (burner) chamber (starved of gas to keep the flame
going.)   (as I said in the previous message, I needed to
relight the stove many times, because I pushed it to its limit and
beyond.)

4.      The
one-inch-diameter gasifier is cute, and burns fine if no wind / air
disturbance.   Could probably be used for lighting, as in an
old lantern.

5.      Soup can and
standard 3-inch diameter can both worked fine.  In fact, very
nicely.  I need to construct one “double height” to see the
differences and to take a larger fuel load.

6.      The 4 inch one is my
favorite so far.  Great fire, quite controllable via the
air-stick.

7.      The 5-inch diameter
gasifier (6 inch can with 0.5 inch riser as insulation on inside.)
certainly works, but I did not have an air-pipe for fine control of the
primary air.  The flame “flutters” around in the wide diameter, and
the air enters horizontally, in contrast to the vertically rising air in
the other units because the burner (upper) chamber is placed down over
the gasifier which is slightly smaller in diameter.

8.      The attempt to introduce
secondary air into the center of the stove, I made a horizontal pipe that
had a large hole in the center and open ends.  The center of the
pipe was placed in the middle of the stove (between the gasifier and the
burner).  No impact was observed, positive nor negative.

Question:   So I am still looking for ways to get secondary air
into the center of the up-drafting gases.  Suggestions are
needed.

9.      I always dumped out the
charcoal.  I have no intention of damaging my gasifier with the heat
of the burning charcoal.  Nor do I want to construct air-pipes with
holes for large amounts of air for burning the charcoal.  When the
gasification is finished, the fire goes out with a bunch of smoke
(non-burned gases) and I dump out the charcoal.

10.     I have a way to control
the air flow in the air stick (besides covering the holes with tape) but
I want to test it first.

Note:  A recent message on the Stoves list mentioned cooking in
large pots.  Either we need improved secondary air supply for the 5
inch and larger gasifiers, or we need multiple units of the 4 inch
gasifiers (or whatever the final size(s) is (are) to be.)

Enough for today.

Happy stove-ing to all of you.

Paul (Anderson)

 

 

 

 

Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D.,  Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 -
7/00
Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State
University
Normal, IL  61790-4400   Voice: 
309-438-7360;  FAX:  309-438-5310
E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items:
www.ilstu.edu/~psanders

 

From pverhaart at optusnet.com.au Tue Nov 13 05:48:37 2001
From: pverhaart at optusnet.com.au (Peter Verhaart)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:18 2004
Subject: Pot sizes
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011112211150.00a87e20@mail.optusnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011113204212.00a8a7e0@mail.optusnet.com.au>

At 05:32 12/11/01 -0700, you wrote:
>Dear Piet and All;
>
>And in Ethiopia they mostly cook pancakes on the Enjira cooker - 60 cm in
>diameter! - to eat the rest of their food with...
>
>TOM REED

Nus Sielcken of the Woodburning Stove Group actually designed a stove for
cooking Enjiras. That was during the 80's. He even brought back an Enjira
plate to Eindhoven without breaking it.

Piet

BTW, I see that I have to readdress everything to the Stoves List, the
reply automatically goes to the author of the posting.

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From pverhaart at optusnet.com.au Tue Nov 13 06:40:42 2001
From: pverhaart at optusnet.com.au (Peter Verhaart)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:18 2004
Subject: composition of woodsmoke
In-Reply-To: <003301c16bb1$dbc097a0$9e8457d1@olsen>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011113213112.00a8f920@mail.optusnet.com.au>

At 11:40 12/11/01 -0800, you wrote:
I
have been asked for the composition of  "pure woodsmoke",
as it relates to the burning of dry sawdust briquettes.
This study
http://www.burningissues.org/table2.htm
has some scientific analysis.
I was wondering if anyone has a reference for an updated analysis, as I am assuming most tests are done with the bark on, and the moisture content high?
regards
John Olsen
Cree Industries  SHIMADA/Heatlog
The study you mentioned looks quite exhaustive and it would certainly give a typical composition of woodsmoke.
From this analysis a pyrophillic chemist would be able to figure out the conditions needed to burn it completely eg into (mailny) watervapour and CO2.
What else do you want to know?
In practise the composition of the smoke would vary, initially there would be a lot of water vapour, making it difficult to burn, in a later stage I would expect more polycyclic compounds. On top of that the rate at which these substances are evolved varies during the process, making stove techniques more difficult than rocket science.
Cheers
Piet

 

From tombreed at home.com Tue Nov 13 09:01:07 2001
From: tombreed at home.com (Thomas Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:18 2004
Subject: Pot sizes
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20011112193257.006d1fcc@pop3.norton.antivirus>
Message-ID: <026b01c16c4a$7b253420$18e5b618@lakwod3.co.home.com>

Dear Melessew:

If we are going to improve world biomass cooking, there must be give and
take on following tradition.

It is my impression that the U.S. housewife is satisfied with two burner
sizes, 15 and 20 cm (small and large). Do you think that could satisfy all
world cooks eventually?

TOM REED BEF

tombreed@home.com; www.woodgas.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Melessew Shanko" <mgp@telecom.net.et>
To: "Thomas Reed" <tombreed@home.com>
Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 9:32 AM
Subject: Re: Pot sizes

> Hi List member,
>
> Yes, Injera (pan cake like staple)is baked over a ceramic plate 50 to 60
cm
> wide. But this is only one type of cooking among a dozen of others that
> require pot sizes ranging from the smallest (< 10 cm wide) Jebena (coffee
> pot) to Mitad 60 cm (Injera baker). If you need more details let me know
> including purpose the info is required.
>
> Mele
>
> At 05:32 AM 11/12/2001 -0700, you wrote:
> >Dear Piet and All;
> >
> >And in Ethiopia they mostly cook pancakes on the Enjira cooker - 60 cm in
> >diameter! - to eat the rest of their food with...
> >
> >TOM REED
> >
> >Subject: Re: cooking information
> >
> >
> >> Hi Paul,
> >>
> >> Your question is very relevant. I don't know of any databases
of
> >> cooking vessels. During the life of the Woodburning Stove Group we
found
> >> that in an African country, I think it was Niger, we needed large
burners
> >> for their large cooking pots because cooking was done for extended
> >families.
> >> Sorry I can't give relevant information, possibly Prasad (who is very
> >> likely to read your posting) will be able to point you in the right
> >direction.
> >>
> >> Cheers
> >>
> >> Piet
> >>
> >>
> >> At 11:19 11/11/01 -0500, you wrote:
> >> >Hi All,
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Does anyone know of a database/information source containing
> >> >information on cooking methods and vessels worldwide? Specifically I
> >> >would be interested in learning about what size pots/pans people use
and
> >> >what they cook in their pots and pans. I realize that this is a
> >> >discussion group for stove technologies and my question is off topic,
> >> >but it seems to me like the designers whould have their end users in
> >> >mind when starting work. So hopefully, someone can point me in the
> >> >correct direction.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >Thanks for your consideration!
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >Paul DeBruicker
> >> >
> >> >-
> >> >Stoves List Archives and Website:
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> >>
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> >>
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> >> http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm
> >>
> >
> >
> >-
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From tombreed at home.com Tue Nov 13 09:07:45 2001
From: tombreed at home.com (Thomas Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:18 2004
Subject: Preheated air...
In-Reply-To: <F230pIz97nJOys6tigS000099fe@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <027801c16c4b$66f58d00$18e5b618@lakwod3.co.home.com>

 

Dear Richard and All:

Lots of stovers believe in preheated air, and certainly if
waste heat can be incorporated into the combustion process by preheating the
combustion air it will improve the energy balance.

However, I have some reservations.

1)  Unless you make some calculations or measurements,
passing the air over a small hot surface may only recapture a few % of the waste
heat and raise the air temperature a FEW degrees.  Hardly worth the
effort 

2)  It is harder to mix the preheated air with the
woodgas because of the lowered density of both.

So, let's not kow tow to preheated air without proof of
efficacy.

TOM REED       

BEF


<FONT
size=2>tombreed@home.com; <A
href="http://www.woodgas.com">www.woodgas.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "richard stanley" <<A
href="mailto:legacyfound@hotmail.com"><FONT
size=2>legacyfound@hotmail.com>
To: <<FONT
size=2>tombreed@home.com>; <<A
href="mailto:Stoves@crest.org">Stoves@crest.org<FONT
size=2>>
Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 8:47 AM
Subject: Re: Fw: More on best stoves
> Tom et al,> >
Just arrived in Comitan Chiapas a week ago. I had the opportunity to get out
> to the Guatemalan border yesterday in the vicinity of a reserve area
called > Lagunos de Montebello (and they indeed are). This is teh front
of a deeply > incised tropical to sub tropical jungle which has been is
badly deforrested > both by a wanton combination land clearing and
induced forest fires.> > There is a policy against cutting which
is officially  enforced these days, > now that only about 30% of the
original forest is left.> What this means to the average campesino living
off the land may or may not > be relate to the potneital need for biomass
densification but I wlll let you > all know as we become better educated
here. We are planning to establish a > training center which potentially
could include training visits by > interested specialists, in stove and
fuelwood and biomass utilisation, as we > get it organised and
funded.> > In the meantime, we are still listening to the
discussions especially about > the primary air secondary air, pyrolsis
and char ..> > > As a consequence of our cntact with the
group, a stove group member in > Georgia is making a stove for the
briquettes which he discussed earlier in > the newsgroup. Carefreeland
has also been into it.> > The design being develoed will be
adaptable for either fully burning > briquettes or, for take off of the
primary air burned pre gassified > briquette for later re-use. To do this
it will include either a) a large > grate to allow the fully combusted
briquette to fall into a collection area > or b) include a side door to
allow a charred briquette, to be pushed out a > side door into an
enclosed collection chamber for further briquetting as a > ¨hot¨ base
material ädditive to other unburnt chopped and semi decomposed > biomass,
or using it directly in another form of stove designed for >
gassification.> > It incorporates a double walled chimney design
which induces a controllable > air flow through the outside of the
annulus in the upper section of same, > the idea being to preheat the
feed air. It also incorporates - by necessity > - a steeply inclined feed
tube for the briquettes, along the rocket stove > feed tube design. The
feed tube was however SEALED off at the upper end, > such that air was
only accessable through the chimney annulus. (This also > gets us around
the problem of flame travelling up the  feed tube rather than > up
the chimney).> We are not at the tincanium gassifier stage yet but it is
may be very > possible for the use of char briquettes if it can be
justified locally, from > the standpoint of cultural acceptability and
economic viability.> > > Seems we are all going very
similar directions.> > Thanks for all your continuing efforts, and
will send in a diagram and photo > or two as we adelante mas with
somthing more concrete...> > Richard Stanley> >
>From: "Thomas Reed" <<FONT
size=2>tombreed@home.com>> >To: "Stoves"
<<FONT
size=2>Stoves@crest.org>> >Subject: Fw:
More on best stoves> >Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 05:57:22 -0700>
>> >> >> > > Tom,> > >>
> > You need to post your message (below) to the entire Stoves
list.> > >> > > More info tomorrow about my efforts
this weekend.> > >> > > Not to MZ in December. 
Better in March 2002.> > >> > > Paul> >
>> > > At 06:53 AM 11/11/01 -0700, you wrote:> > >
>Dear Paul:> > > >> > > > > 1.  I
obtain strong flame and very little evident soot during the> > >
> > gasification/combustion stage (prior to the burning of the >
>charcoal).> >The> > > > > AMOUNT of heat from
the gasification process is impressive and > >screams>
>to> > > > > me that charcoal production WITHOUT USEFUL
BURNING OF THE GASSES is> >where> > > > >
tremendous waste occurs.> > > >> > >
>ABSOLUTELY!  JUST THINK HOW MUCH ENERGY HAS BEEN WASTED AND IS
BEING> >WASTED> > > >EVERY DAY IN MAKING
CHARCOAL.  ALSO CHARCOAL MAKING TRANSFERS THE SMOKE> >OF
A> > > >WOOD FIRE FROM THE USER TO ALL OF HUMANITY.  SHOULD
BE OUTLAWED> >EVERYWHERE.> > > >> > >
> > Comment:   I am becoming even more highly convinced of the
value of> >the> > > > > gasification process (ala
the Reed-Larson style of IDD > >gasification).> >I>
> > > > believe that the fuel making processes of Richard Stanley
(Legacy> > > > > Foundation) could produce appropriate fuel
"units" (as in> >mini-briquettes)> > > > > from
unconsolidated biomass, but that is a separate question.> > >
>> > > >LOVE IT!  WISH I COULD GET MY HANDS ON A FEW OF
THE CHINESE MULTIHOLE> >COAL> > > >BRIQUETTES>
> > >> > > > > 2.  Size (amount) of charcoal
after gasification seems to be> >substantial (> > > >
> more than 50% of the volume of fuel pellets used for gasification).>
> > >> > > >THERE IS A SHRINKAGE OF ABOUT 30% DURING
CHARCOAL MFGR, BUT THE LOSS OF> > > >WEIGHT IS 80%, SO
UNCONSOLIDATED CHARCOAL HAS HIGH MASS ENERGY DENSITY,> >BUT>
> > >LOW VOLUME ENERGY DENSITY.> > > >> >
> > > 3.  I need "reasonable" air supply to ignite the process,
but later > >I> >need> > > > > to
restrict the primary air to VERY low amounts.   Currently, the
> >air> > > >leaks> > > > > in my
gasifier container are excessive, so I am trying to seal it>
>better> > > >at> > > > > the
bottom.  I believe that a 1/8 th inch ( 4 mm.) diameter hole >
>could> >be> > > > > more than enough air for
the 4 inch diameter gasifier chamber I am> > > > >
using.  Someone wrote recently that the some oxygen is released in >
>the> > > > > gasification process, thereby "fueling" the
primary fire.   I am > >sure> >that> >
> > > amount of oxygen will depend on the nature of the
biomass.> > > > >> > > >THE OXYGEN IN THE
FUEL IS ALREADY REACTED, SO NOT TO BE CONSIDERED AN> > >
>OXIDANT.  HOWEVER, CHARCOAL MAKING IS EXOTHERMIC FROM DRY WOOD,
SO> > > >INCREDIBLY SMALL AMOUNTS OF AIR REQUIRED IN IDD STOVE
WITH DRY WOOD.> >HARD> > > >TO REGULATE THAT SMALL AN
AMOUNT.  MAYBE TWO VALVES, ONE FOR START AND > >A> >
> >MUCH SMALLER ONE FOR CONTROL.> > > >> > >
>WITH WETTER WOOD IT IS HARDER TO LIGHT, BUT ONCE LIT MUCH EASIER TO>
>CONTROL!> > > >> > > >> > >
> > Question #1:   does anyone have understandable info on this
source > >of> > > > > oxygen from within the fuel,
or is it not an issue?> > > > >> > > > >
3.  I am able to easily save the charcoal.  I do NOT want to burn
it> >in> > > >the> > > > > same
gasifier unit because it is inefficient there and I suspect >
>that> >the> > > > > heat-stress reduces the
life of the gasifier unit.> > > >> > > >NEEDS TO
BE BETTER MADE AND CONTROLLED, BUT CAN DO IN THE FORCED DRAFT> > >
>VARIETY.> > > >> > > >My alternatives are
A.> > > > > to quench the charcoal in water, or B. to place
the hot charcoal > >into> >some> > > > >
more appropriate stove.  (and for what purpose in the stove for>
>charcoal?> > > > > slow cooking?  warming? 
grilling steaks (not in Developing> >Societies)?> > >
>or> > > > > what? )> > > > >>
> > >DO YOU USE A FUEL MAGAZINE?  THAT CAN HELP BY BEING EASILY
REMOVED AND> > > >SEQUESTERED.> > > >>
> > > > Therefore:  Question #2.   Do we have a (or
several) appropriate> >stoves> > > >for> >
> > > use of the charcoal?   For example, would the charcoal
be highly> > > > > appropriate for some type of oven for
bread, etc.?   Charcoal needs > >to> >be>
> > > > close to the object being warmed, right?  Basically, I
am saying > >that> >I> > > > > want the
charcoal removed from the gasifier?  What do I do with it?> >
> > >> > > >HEAT IS HEAT.  CHARCOAL IS A VERY
DIFFERENT FUEL FROM WOOD.  IF YOU CAN> > > >BRIQUETTE IT,
IS IS EASY TO STORE AND SHIP.  LOTS OF PEOPLE HAVE USES.> > >
>> > > >I TOO REGRET THE CHARCOAL.> > > >
>> > > > > I have made a list to issues to be considered
in constructing one or> >more> > > > > "marketable"
(meaning appropriate) gasifier stoves:> > > > >> >
> > > Priority issues:> > > > >> > >
> > Diameter of gasifier (lower unit)> > > > > burner
(upper unit)> > > > > Height> > > > >
gasifier> > > > > burner> > > >> >
> >SO MANY CHOICES!  IF YOU UNDERSTAND THE PRINCIPLES IT IS EASIER TO
> >APPLY> >THE> > > >PRACTICE.  I HOPE
TO WRITE A MANUAL SOON.> > > >> > > > >
Overlap of burner bottom down over the top of the gasifier, which>
>relates> > > >to--> > > > > Secondary air
controls> > > > > Primary air control> > > >
> Fuel types:> > > > > "standard fuel #1" I have chosen
wood pellets (as for pellet stoves)> > > > > because this
fuel is available, cheap, consistent quality, needs no> > > >
> processing by me, easily measured.> > > > > "standard
fuel #2"  To be defined> > > > > (left for later): 
hundreds of other fuels that are difficult to> >replicate> >
> > > in many areas, but that need to be eventually tested.>
> > > >> > > > > Fuel amounts (related to
diameter of the gasifier, height of the > >fill,>
>and> > > > > the desired length of the burn)> >
> > >> > > > > OF COURSE EMISSIONS AND EFFICIENCY
need to be considered, but that> >will> > > > >
need to be done by others after we get some better idea of the basic>
> > > > physical structure of the stove.> > > >
>> > > >WHAT IS YOUR CURRENT FAVORITE CONFIGURATION? 
HAVE YOU BEEN SUCCESSFUL > >IN> > > >REDUCING THE
CHIMNEY/BURNER DIAMETER RELATIVE TO THE STOVE?> > > >>
> > >> > > > > Secondary issues:> > >
> >> > > > > Materials of construction of the
components:> > > > > Aluminum (easy to work with, transfers
heat well, but ultimately too> > > > > expensive?)>
> > > > Iron/steel/ "tin cans" (readily available).> >
> > > mud/clay/etc.  (just to keep in mind at present)>
> > >> > > >YESTERDAY I INVENTED THE NAME "TINCANIUM"
FOR OUR MATERIALS OF> >CONSTRUCTION.> > > >THE TIN CAN
HAS HAD 150 YEARS OF DEVELOPMENT.> > > >> > > >I
CAN GET ALMOST ANY SIZE AT THE SUPERMARKET.  HOWEVER, I HAVEN'T FOUND
> >A> > > >REASONABLE SOURCE FOR BUYING IN
QUANTITY.  CATALOGS FROM SUPPLIERS OF> > > >100-500 WANT
$.40 - $1 PER CAN.> > > >> > > > > Taper of
the component parts (does it make a difference?)> > > > >
Forced-air enhancements (options to consider)> > > > >
Multiple burners (side by side for bigger stoves)> > > > >
Physical appearance, including the "support" of the the upper >
>burner,> > > > > complete with a stove-top.> >
> > >> > > > > This is not a small list, and maybe
other issues should be added.> > > > >> > > >
> My experimentation is quite simple and I hope to explain in a week >
>or> >two> > > > > what I am doing so that
others (read: you) can replicate and further> > > > >
experiment along with me.> > > > >> > > >
> Meanwhile, may I suggest that you start saving all metal cans with>
> > > > diameters from 3 to 7 inches.   
(smile     :-))   ).> > > >
>> > > > > Paul> > > > >> >
> >SHOULD I RESERVE EARLY DECEMBER FOR MOZAMBIQUE?> > >
>> > >
>ONWARD............         
tom> > > >> > > > >> > > >
>> > > > >> > > > > Paul S. Anderson,
Ph.D.,  Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00> > > >
> Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University>
> > > > Normal, IL  61790-4400   Voice: 
309-438-7360;  FAX:  309-438-5310> > > > > E-mail:
<FONT
size=2>psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: <A
href="http://www.ilstu.edu/~psanders"><FONT
size=2>www.ilstu.edu/~psanders> > > >
>> > > > >> > > > > -> > >
> > Stoves List Archives and Website:> > > > >
<FONT
size=2>http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/<FONT
size=2>> > > > > <A
href="http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html"><FONT
size=2>http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html<FONT
size=2>> > > > >> > > > > Stoves List
Moderators:> > > > > Ron Larson, <A
href="mailto:ronallarson@qwest.net"><FONT
size=2>ronallarson@qwest.net> > > > >
Alex English, <FONT
size=2>english@adan.kingston.net> > > >
> Elsen L. Karstad, <FONT
size=2>elk@wananchi.com <A
href="http://www.chardust.com">www.chardust.com<FONT
size=2>> > > > >> > > > > List-Post:
<<FONT
size=2>mailto:stoves@crest.org>> > >
> > List-Help: <<FONT
size=2>mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>> >
> > > List-Unsubscribe: <<A
href="mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org"><FONT
size=2>mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>>
> > > > List-Subscribe: <<A
href="mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org"><FONT
size=2>mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>>
> > > >> > > > > Sponsor the Stoves List:
<FONT
size=2>http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html> >
> > > -> > > > > Other Biomass Stoves Events and
Information:> > > > > <A
href="http://www.fsec.ucf.edu/bioam/"><FONT
size=2>http://www.fsec.ucf.edu/bioam/> > >
> > <A
href="http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/"><FONT
size=2>http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/<FONT
size=2>> > > > > <A
href="http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml"><FONT
size=2>http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml<FONT
size=2>> > > > >> > > > > For information
about CHAMBERS STOVES> > > > > <A
href="http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm"><FONT
size=2>http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm<FONT
size=2>> > > > >> > >> > > Paul S.
Anderson, Ph.D.,  Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00> >
> Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University>
> > Normal, IL  61790-4400   Voice: 
309-438-7360;  FAX:  309-438-5310> > > E-mail: <A
href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu<FONT
size=2> - Internet items: <FONT
size=2>www.ilstu.edu/~psanders> > >>
>> >> >-> >Stoves List Archives and
Website:> >http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/>
>http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html> >>
>Stoves List Moderators:> >Ron Larson, <A
href="mailto:ronallarson@qwest.net"><FONT
size=2>ronallarson@qwest.net> >Alex English,
<FONT
size=2>english@adan.kingston.net> >Elsen L.
Karstad, <FONT
size=2>elk@wananchi.com <A
href="http://www.chardust.com">www.chardust.com<FONT
size=2>> >> >List-Post: <<A
href="mailto:stoves@crest.org"><FONT
size=2>mailto:stoves@crest.org>>
>List-Help: <<FONT
size=2>mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>>
>List-Unsubscribe: <<A
href="mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org"><FONT
size=2>mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>>
>List-Subscribe: <<FONT
size=2>mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>>
>> >Sponsor the Stoves List: <A
href="http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html"><FONT
size=2>http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html>
>-> >Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:>
>http://www.fsec.ucf.edu/bioam/>
>http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/>
>http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml>
>> >For information about CHAMBERS STOVES>
>http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm> >>
>> > >
_________________________________________________________________> Get
your FREE download of MSN Explorer at <A
href="http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp"><FONT
size=2>http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp>

 

From VHarris001 at aol.com Tue Nov 13 09:33:43 2001
From: VHarris001 at aol.com (VHarris001@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:18 2004
Subject: Refractories and Insulation
Message-ID: <8b.f0ae6b3.2922893a@aol.com>

 

   (RWL):  We are way out of my element here.  I guess you are saying that
the problem is not so much with flame fronts traveling back towards the
source.  Again, I'd appreciate some references.

There is a free .pdf document on the web (sorry I can't provide the address just now) that discusses in detail flame propogation speeds - particularly in pipes.  I'm sure that a search on Google or Northernlight will bring it up for you.  Here is the relevant information.

Enardo International Ltd., Tulsa Oklahoma
Technical Bulletin - Flame Arrestor Technology
Michael Wittman, Senior Applications Engineer

Regards,
Vernon Harris

 

From ronallarson at qwest.net Tue Nov 13 10:44:11 2001
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:18 2004
Subject: Refractories and Insulation
In-Reply-To: <8b.f0ae6b3.2922893a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <00c401c16c5a$3c38dae0$a1f66641@computer>

 

Vernon:

Thanks very much. I have
downloaded the file (which is as <A
href="http://www.enardo.com/fatech.pdf   )">http://www.enardo.com/fatech.pdf  
)  I have not had to absorb this, but it (12 pages) is at about
the right level of complexity for me and I look forward to reading
it.  

Enardo seems to be a fairly
small supplier of safety products to the petroleum industry.

As a reminder of why this
subject came up, the topic was mixing in burners such as the Bunsen
burner.  I think this does not address that topic, but it certainly answers
the question of flame propagation back into pipes/

Again, thanks for a good
reference.

Ron
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
----- Original Message -----
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black">From:
<A href="mailto:VHarris001@aol.com"
title=VHarris001@aol.com>VHarris001@aol.com
To: <A
href="mailto:ronallarson@qwest.net"
title=ronallarson@qwest.net>ronallarson@qwest.net ; <A
href="mailto:pverhaart@optusnet.com.au"
title=pverhaart@optusnet.com.au>pverhaart@optusnet.com.au ; <A
href="mailto:stoves@crest.org" title=stoves@crest.org>stoves@crest.org

Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2001 7:33
AM
Subject: Re: Refractories and
Insulation
In a message dated
11/01/2001 1:32:55 AM Eastern Standard Time, <A
href="mailto:ronallarson@qwest.net">ronallarson@qwest.net writes:

<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"
TYPE="CITE">   (RWL):  We are way out of my element
here.  I guess you are saying that the problem is not so much with
flame fronts traveling back towards the source.  Again, I'd
appreciate some references.There is a free .pdf document
on the web (sorry I can't provide the address just now) that discusses in
detail flame propogation speeds - particularly in pipes.  I'm sure that a
search on Google or Northernlight will bring it up for you.  Here is the
relevant information. Enardo International Ltd., Tulsa Oklahoma
Technical Bulletin - Flame Arrestor Technology Michael Wittman, Senior
Applications Engineer Regards, Vernon Harris

 

From ronallarson at qwest.net Tue Nov 13 11:23:14 2001
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:18 2004
Subject: composition of woodsmoke
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011113213112.00a8f920@mail.optusnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <00f101c16c5f$ab097060$a1f66641@computer>

 

John:

Thanks for asking this question
- as it led me for the first time to this "burningissues" web site.  This
is a non-profit group in California apparently dedicated to stopping the use of
wood-burning stoves.  This is obviously a sensitive subject for our list -
and one we need to address.

1.  It is a helpful
resource in the sense of emphasizing the health hazards in developing countries
(which seem not to be their focus - their data seems to be mainly (but
not entirely) for the US), which obviously must be worse than in the US. 
There is much emphasis on cancer - whereas the developing country data I have
seen seems to ignore the possibility of cancer.

2.  It is not a helpful
resource, because I don't see an indication that this group is calling for
improved understanding and products - rather calling for prohibitions on
wood-burning stove use.


I guess and hope that our list
members who deal with modern EPA-approved stoves will know more and I hope they
will join in on a discussion of what we can learn from this "burningissues"
group.

The particular Table 2 is from
an EPA report that I will attempt to obtain ("1993 EPA Report, A Summary of
the Emissions Characterization and Noncancer Respiratory Effects of Wood
Smoke, EPA-453/R-93-036")  It seems to offer extremely high levels of
unburned (but easily combustible) products - not at all what I would expect from
an EPA-approved stove.   In fact, a charcoal-making stove might
not produce a gas as combustible as what is described as "smoke" (they show that
up to 37% of the input wood can appear as carbon monoxide !!)

So, John, I would be cautious in
using this page of data - until we better understand the conditions under which
the data was obtained.  As Piet said, this data can help us to figure out
how to combust further to H2O and CO2 - but I don't believe that is the question
you want answered. 

Returning to the use of this
site's health data to push for more and better research on stoves in developing
countries - any ideas?

(This might be a good time to
say that I haven't heard anything from the Shell Foundation on their next steps
to get their stove program into existence - which is the best way I see on the
horizon to address these health issues.  I heard one rumor that regional
meetings might replace the London meeting that was called off a month
ago.)

Ron

<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
----- Original Message -----
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black">From:
<A href="mailto:pverhaart@optusnet.com.au"
title=pverhaart@optusnet.com.au>Peter Verhaart
To: <A href="mailto:Stoves@crest.org"
title=Stoves@crest.org>Stoves@crest.org
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2001 4:39
AM
Subject: Re: composition of
woodsmoke
At 11:40 12/11/01 -0800, you wrote:
<FONT face="Times New Roman, Times"
size=2>I have been asked for the composition of  "pure woodsmoke",
as it relates to the burning of dry sawdust briquettes.<FONT
face="Times New Roman, Times" size=2>This study <A
href="http://www.burningissues.org/table2.htm">http://www.burningissues.org/table2.htm
has some scientific analysis.<FONT
face="Times New Roman, Times" size=2> I was wondering if anyone has
a reference for an updated analysis, as I am assuming most tests are done
with the bark on, and the moisture content high?<FONT
face="Times New Roman, Times" size=2>regards<FONT
face="Times New Roman, Times" size=2>John Olsen<FONT
face="Times New Roman, Times" size=2>Cree Industries 
SHIMADA/HeatlogThe study you mentioned looks quite
exhaustive and it would certainly give a typical composition of
woodsmoke.From this analysis a pyrophillic chemist would be able to figure
out the conditions needed to burn it completely eg into (mailny) watervapour
and CO2.What else do you want to know?In practise the composition of
the smoke would vary, initially there would be a lot of water vapour, making
it difficult to burn, in a later stage I would expect more polycyclic
compounds. On top of that the rate at which these substances are evolved
varies during the process, making stove techniques more difficult than rocket
science.CheersPiet

From heat-win at cwcom.net Tue Nov 13 11:49:02 2001
From: heat-win at cwcom.net (Thomas J Stubbing)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:18 2004
Subject: composition of woodsmoke
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011113213112.00a8f920@mail.optusnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <3BF14D92.BBF252D3@cwcom.net>

 

Dear Ron et al,
Here in the UK we have very strict regulation of smoke emissions, especially
in cities, and appropriate certification of solid fuel burning appliances
and what fuels can be burnt in them.
In that context have a look at <http://www.cplindustries.co.uk> and
<http://www.clearviewstoves.com>, the latter showing wood burning stoves
which can be used in smokeless zones.
Obviously good stove design can virtually eliminate harmful emissions.
I hope this helps.
Regards,
Thomas J Stubbing
Ron Larson wrote:

John:    
Thanks for asking this question - as it led me for the first time to this
"burningissues" web site.  This is a non-profit group in California
apparently dedicated to stopping the use of wood-burning stoves. 
This is obviously a sensitive subject for our list - and one we need to
address.    
1.  It is a helpful resource in the sense of emphasizing the health
hazards in developing countries (which seem not to be their focus - their
data seems to be mainly (but not entirely) for the US), which obviously
must be worse than in the US.  There is much emphasis on cancer -
whereas the developing country data I have seen seems to ignore the possibility
of cancer.    
2.  It is not a helpful resource, because I don't see an indication
that this group is calling for improved understanding and products - rather
calling for prohibitions on wood-burning stove use.     
I guess and hope that our list members who deal with modern EPA-approved
stoves will know more and I hope they will join in on a discussion of what
we can learn from this "burningissues" group.    
The particular Table 2 is from an EPA report that I will attempt to obtain
("1993 EPA Report, A Summary of the Emissions Characterization and Noncancer
Respiratory Effects of Wood Smoke, EPA-453/R-93-036")  It seems
to offer extremely high levels of unburned (but easily combustible) products
- not at all what I would expect from an EPA-approved stove.  
In fact, a charcoal-making stove might not produce a gas as combustible
as what is described as "smoke" (they show that up to 37% of the input
wood can appear as carbon monoxide !!)    
So, John, I would be cautious in using this page of data - until we better
understand the conditions under which the data was obtained.  As Piet
said, this data can help us to figure out how to combust further to H2O
and CO2 - but I don't believe that is the question you want answered.    
Returning to the use of this site's health data to push for more and better
research on stoves in developing countries - any ideas?    
(This might be a good time to say that I haven't heard anything from the
Shell Foundation on their next steps to get their stove program into existence
- which is the best way I see on the horizon to address these health issues. 
I heard one rumor that regional meetings might replace the London meeting
that was called off a month ago.) Ron
<blockquote
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
----- Original Message -----

<div
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black">From:Peter
Verhaart

To: Stoves@crest.org

Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2001 4:39
AM

Subject: Re: composition of woodsmoke
At 11:40 12/11/01 -0800, you wrote:
I
have been asked for the composition of  "pure woodsmoke", as it relates
to the burning of dry sawdust briquettes.
This study http://www.burningissues.org/table2.htm
has some scientific analysis.
I was wondering
if anyone has a reference for an updated analysis, as I am assuming most
tests are done with the bark on, and the moisture content high?
regards
John Olsen
Cree Industries 
SHIMADA/Heatlog

The study you mentioned looks quite exhaustive and it would certainly
give a typical composition of woodsmoke.
From tombreed at home.com Tue Nov 13 12:48:00 2001
From: tombreed at home.com (Thomas Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:19 2004
Subject: Tinder for Stoves
In-Reply-To: <158bc19fc9.19fc9158bc@pmel.noaa.gov>
Message-ID: <02d201c16c6a$00de8200$18e5b618@lakwod3.co.home.com>

Dear Tami:

"Tinder" - n - Readily combustible material such as twigs, used to start a
fire" (Am Heritage).

I have given a lot of thought and some experiment to lighting our woodgas
stoves (and coal stoves to be). The housewife wants to cook as conveniently
as possible, not mess with lighting procedures for five minutes. It is my
aim to make our WoodGas stoves as convenient as propane (with a match?).

On the other hand Ron Larson was shocked to see me start the stove with a
propane torch or alcohol chips. Don't have that in Timbuktu, so can't use
it. He used pine needles - not too bad, but don't have them everywhere
either. What does he recommend today?

To light a fission nuclear bomb, you need a high explosive bomb to drive the
metal hemispheres together.

To light a fusion bomb you need a fission bomb to drive the components to
critical.
~~~~~~
I hope we don't need quite such drastic lighting proceedures for wood and
coal, but definitely the pellets are harder to light than the low density
stuff.

Currently I soak wood chips in alcohol, then drain off the alcohol after an
hour. It starts chips and pellets very nicely with no visible transition to
the final woodgas fire in 1-2 minutes. Probably what we used on coal.

I presume the sequence of events is that the alcohol on the surface
initially provides volatile fuel to burn. Then as the surface alcohol is
depleted pyrolysis of the chips begins while being supported from alcohol
within. By the time the alcohol is gone we have charcoal which will burn at
>1000C if the pyrolysis hasn't started in the fuel layer below.

I have tried many other things with moderate success. In particular I would
like a medium density, porous (for the alcohol) SMALL biomass sphere that
will act as a uniform distributor of the gas from irregular particle sizes
below. Tried soybeans; too dense.

As to the alcohol, lighter fluid, kerosene, diesel would all work, but give
a smoky flame, while the alcohol gives a BEAUTIFUL blue flame. Probably
even vegetable oils or animal fats would work.

As to the COAL LIGHTING problem, I am thinking of a pyrotechnic addition to
the tinder such as sodium or ammounium nitrate which could give an INSTANT
and dramatic burning bed and be fun. Then we need a fuse and match (strike
anywhere). Whoa... stand back.

Yours for faster stove lighting.... TOM REED BEF

SUGGESTIONS?

TOM REED

Dr. Thomas Reed
The Biomass Energy Foundation
1810 Smith Rd., Golden, CO 80401
303 278 0558;
tombreed@home.com; www.woodgas.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tami Bond" <tami.bond@noaa.gov>
To: "Thomas Reed" <tombreed@home.com>
Cc: "AJH" <andrew.heggie@dtn.ntl.com>; "Paul Anderson" <psanders@ilstu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2001 9:40 AM
Subject: Re: coal burning for cooking

> Hey Tom,
>
> How consistent is wood, in terms of volatile content?
>
> Coal can be as high as 40% (bituminous), as low as 5% (anthracite).
> Moisture content of lignites can be greater than 40%.
>
> I will send you a brick or two. No worries on the freight. They are VERY
> hard to light-- little volatile content. How to do it? Like the Chinese,
> lots of wood and/or paper and don't let them go out. Or how I do it, a
> pile of barbecue briquettes. What doesn't work: small amounts of wood,
> propane torch, acetylene torch, dousing in diesel fuel.
>
> Tami

-
Stoves List Archives and Website:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html

Stoves List Moderators:
Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com

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List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>

Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html
-
Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
http://www.fsec.ucf.edu/bioam/
http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml

For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

 

From cree at dowco.com Tue Nov 13 14:15:49 2001
From: cree at dowco.com (John Olsen)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:19 2004
Subject: composition of woodsmoke
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011113213112.00a8f920@mail.optusnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <004301c16c77$84b5cea0$958457d1@olsen>

 

Thomas,
My research has led me to another stove which shows
great promise,
after 30 years of developement in the
UK.
<A
href="http://www.dunsleyheat.co.uk/yorkshirestove.htm">http://www.dunsleyheat.co.uk/yorkshirestove.htm
John Olsen

From andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com Tue Nov 13 14:25:23 2001
From: andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com (AJH)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:19 2004
Subject: spontanous charcoal combustion
In-Reply-To: <4e.15b575a.291c1fd3@aol.com>
Message-ID: <1hs2vt8ntkmv25b01ddpulhfsumtvhv9gq@4ax.com>

On Thu, 8 Nov 2001 12:50:11 EST, Carefreeland@aol.com wrote:

>Colliers,
> It seems we are trying to figure out how a pile of stored charcoal can
>burst into flames. First, embers can stay alive in charcoal for long periods
>of time because the insulation factors involved. This is even more pronounced
>in coal mine fires. Even a small amount of air will continue the burn. Hot
>gases escaping draw fresh air in from cracks and water steam reforms the coal
>at high temperatures.

Yes this was the point Kevin Chisholm made, I was talking about char
that had been quenched.

> The presents of water can help or hurt, depending on several factors some
>of which I am not sure about when or if. First, biochemical decomposition of
>the hydrocarbon and nitrogen impurities. The lower the temperature that the
>char is produced at the more hydrocarbon residue that can stay. Biochemical
>decomposition such as in a compost pile can cause heat build up until

I wonder how much of this is likely, composting is the respiration of
carbohydrates, in aerobic conditions it will tend to give off water
and CO2, in anaerobic conditions methane. This is known as firedamp in
mines I think, why I do not know. Anyway methane has a high self
ignition temperature(630C from a quick web search), which gives it a
high octane number, it also burns only in a defined range of air:fuel
mixtures and needs an ignition source. So what explains will-o-wisp
methane flames in swamps? Are they a myth?

>probably the hydrocarbons ignite first, most likely in gas form then igniting
>the charcoal.

certainly volatile hydrocarbons appear to have lower ignition
temperatures than carbon (400C), diesel (~260C) but all these
temperatures are above what one would expect in a drying environment
unless radiation is the means, after all a simple glass reflector will
achieve 170C+ in a solar oven.

> There may be some sort of ignition taking place from chemical reactions
>such as the way linseed oil ignites in oily rags. I can't help but suspect
>that nitrogen is involved in there somewhere, know of no evidence to prove
>this. If anybody can find the exact breakdown sequence of linseed oil this
>would provide a valuable insight.

I too would be interested to hear, we know that ignition temperature
goes down in an oxygen rich atmosphere, you mention nitrogen
impurities (or traces), if there is a nitrated organic compound
present then it does not take much to knock the nitrogen out and
release a bit of oxygen.

The other effect is if there is a catalytic effect, something that
drops the energy level necessary to initiate a reaction.

> Lastly, solar ignition from solar heat buildup in a small hole could
>possibly reach ignition points.

This is an interesting one, I know from childhood experiments that a
short roll of carbonised corrugated cardboard pointed at the sun
achieves high temperatures, I must try it again. In effect the tubes
form closed black bodies, the walls have poor conductance and there is
mutual re radiation between tube walls, the effect is sunlight enters
through a very narrow angle and heats up the tubes which can only
radiate their (lower) surface heat back up the same incident angle, so
there is a net heat build up, could a piece of pitted char have the
same effect?

> Let me shed some light on another viewpoint. I have done extensive
>experiments with ignition of genuine black powder. With every case I looked
>at it was always the sulfur that gasified and then ignited first, before the
>charcoal. This leads me to believe it is hydrocarbon impurities in the char
>lowering the ignition point dangerously. The higher temp retort char I have
>done ignition tests on seems to have a high ignition point.

Web search suggests 400C but I agree your point that volatile
hydrocarbons exist in the matrix.

> The highest sustained temp during the charring that the whole charge was
>exposed to, would determine the volatility point of any hydrocarbon present.
>In other wards say you have part of the charge you are working with only
>reach F 300. When the char achieves that temp again it will again start to
>release the hydrocarbon not yet released. The gas being released is the
>culprit.

Again I agree about the hydrocarbons and how cooking char alters its
purity but I suspect there is something else happening also.

>Pure carbon has a very high ignition temp.

It also is a poor conductor and *may* have a high surface area when
freshly formed, an individual spike on a surface would have very low
thermal mass and would need little to raise its temperature.
<snip>

> I have never heard of a truly wet pile of charcoal or coal igniting by
>accident.

Nor me all reference were with regard to drying char after quenching
it in water.

AJH

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From andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com Tue Nov 13 16:39:04 2001
From: andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com (AJH)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:19 2004
Subject: coal burning for cooking
In-Reply-To: <158bc19fc9.19fc9158bc@pmel.noaa.gov>
Message-ID: <qlv2vtk1gkri04ae2p5o4hlkui2466mpia@4ax.com>

On Mon, 12 Nov 2001 11:00:54 -0800, Tami Bond <Tami.Bond@noaa.gov>
wrote:

>
>
>> In practice in coal using areas is there ever a need for cooking heat
>> without room heat?
>
>Sure. China goes from latitude ~30 N to ~47 N-- a huge range of
>climates. In the South it's pretty warm and little heat is needed. I've
>had Chinese people tell me there is no coal use in the South, only
>biofuel, but it's not true. In some seasons, there are also other needs
>for heat: some "improved" stoves with chimneys were rejected because
>the villagers could not dry crops in the exhaust.

I wish you had not said that last bit, I was moving to a conclusion
that whilst idd and thence an updraft CO generator was a good possible
means to enable clean burning from start up I had wanted to use a well
insulated chimney. I was thinking in terms of the combustion area
being to the side of a hotplate and then holes for pots in the rest of
the flue path and a good chimney to produce draft. I anticipated some
need for a blower to get things going.
>
>> I ask because size is important, heat losses seem to relate to surface
>> area and power to cubic capacity so small is lossy.
>
>Got it. I wonder if the insulating material (ash mixture) used by Dean
>could help us here.

Yes I was assuming only tin cans and clay pots and cheap insulation
would be available.
>
>> Whilst I can cleanly start a coal IDD stove with biomass, once the
>> volatiles from the biomass are exhausted it is not immediately
>> possible to cleanly burn the offgas from the coal in a small
>> stove. I am certain this is because we cannot get enough draft in the
>> absence of a chimney and any volatiles are diluted by CO2.
>
>Again, this depends on the coal. I think that high-volatile coal may
>not behave this way-- the offgas may be combustible.

We know that the volatiles are combustible, probably not as readily
combustible as the early fractions driven off from biomass. I hazard a
guess that they are more complex hydrocarbons and that they are
partially cracked in the coal bed. I imagine some soot is formed at
this stage and forms small clumps with other compounds which become
difficult to burn in the secondary flame. Also I do not know at what
stage the nasties like heavy metals and sulphur come into the
equation, overall cheap coal seems better burned in a large facility
able to deal with them. This is also why I wanted a decent chimney to
carry these pollutants away.

So I theorise that we need to keep the offgas supplied to the
secondary combustion as high a cv as possible to maintain a hot flame
able to incinerate PICs. With biomass this is not a problem, most of
the mass ends up as highly combustible volatiles. With coal you say
the volatiles vary from 40%-8%. Clearly there is not the scope for a
powerful flame from these. The other thing about biomass is that it
has a low conductivity and probably lower specific heat, it only needs
a small amount of heat conducted to it to sustain pyrolysis. This heat
is provided by the consumption of a portion of the char in a
reed-larson idd.

Given that idd allows the clean combustion from start up of coal then
I have already made a few points which seem to address some of the
problems.

1) start with idd of biomass over a mixture of fresh coal and sieved
coke from previous firings. I do not know how often I will be able to
do this without ash fouling the reaction zone, I sieve the coke with a
~4mm mesh.
2) pieces small enough to be pyrolised in the moving front
3) a blower of some sort at least until the chimney is drawing.

The coal is a good challenge because the standard reed-larson idd is
actually a good cook stove with natural draft. I take it as read that
the use of a small electric fan improves it by allowing combustion of
damper fuels and reducing the char output. To my mind the reduction in
flame height is a benefit for stability overall. What coal does is
make the refinement of a blower a near necessity in the absence of a
chimney, to make use of the early evolution of volatiles rather than
wasting them as the coal bed develops. If it is to remain in a flame
cooking mode rather than a radiant heat mode then, because so much of
the energy is in the C->C0->C02 reaction you are bound to gasify the
char bed. This requires forced draft and a heat resistant primary
combustion zone. The tin can type building materials still paly a part
as they have low thermal mass and we can use the multiple concentric
walls with air passages in between to act as insulation by boundary
layers as well as the multiple re radiating layers to lessen heat loss
without expensive insulating.

Given that gasification people can tell us the superficial velocities
required to burn out the char and that for any composition of coal we
will know the proportions of primary to secondary air necessary once
the coal bed is >20 particle diameters thick we can work out the power
needed to pass the combustion air through the system.

It seems Tom reckons to release about 2kW(t) with 3w(e). I reckon back
pressures will be higher in the coal fired device but we will need a
lot more primary air so a much higher proportion will be at the higher
pressure. I assume a small fan runs <<50% efficient but have no
feeling for the small entrainment devices I am playing with. Still
empiricism rules OK. I shall move on to my next step, maybe a little
faster if I can gen access to a machine shop.

> It may be a
>question of too little draft-- but on the other hand, if the draft is
>too high, you dilute the volatiles below the flammability limit and/or
>reduce the temperature. (I haven't seen your coal burning, so hard to
>envision.) I've had situations where I put a fan on and *increase* the
>smoke because I increase the flame height. (Classical 'theory' says
>that smoke goes with flame height in a diffusion flame, makes sense if
>the soot is formed at the reaction zone = flame surface.)

As I said I think the soot may be formed earlier. The things that
dilute the offgas are excess air, this can only happen if the coal bed
is too narrow as no free oxygen should get past the hot carbon.
Remember air contains 80% nitrogen which has a bad diluting effect.
The next stage is CO2 which dilutes the cv of the offgas but still
increases its sensible heat *unless* the coal bed in un insulated. If
you insulate the coalbed then you quickly reach temperatures that ruin
tin cans.
>
>> The obvious work
>> around is a fan of some sort to increase primary air once the coal is
>> lit, this then converts the stove to a CO generator, the CO increases
>> the calorific value of the offgas and thus enables a clean flame, this
>> I can readily demonstrate.
>
>This sounds more controllable. I think that we can't rely on volatile
>combustion-- diffusion flames, especially in this environment, are too
>hard to manage!

I quite like diffuse flames but they do increase the flame path, not a
problem in a stove with a chimney but less good on the idd stoves of
which I had been playing with, also they blow out easily.

>
>My feeling is that biomass is probably more predictable than coal.
>There are a few different methods of fixing carbon by plants, but it is
>pretty much the same process. Coal, on the other hand, has undergone a
>wide range of geologic thermal processing, either in presence or
>absence of oxygen, with resulting different volatile contents. These
>are regional differences, but could also be different by coal seam
>within the same region! A successful coal stove will have to be
>flexible.

I think you have it, Tom Reed has frequently posted that dry biomass
minus its ash is a consistent composition. The big significant
variable with biomass is its moisture content, burning biomass with
more than 30% water content is problematical, get it down to 15% and
it burns cleanly quite easily.

Lighting coal I have always found difficult in a conventional fire,
top down lighting seems easy with 1" of pellets on top, I shall have
to try twigs. What you need to avoid is any lighting material which
does not allow the top surface to see radiated heat from the flame
above, paper ash is bad for this. Once top down pyrolysis starts no
ash should form and the top remains a black body looking into the
depth of flame above it. I think careful grading of the top layer of
coal may be necessary in the absence of pellets and metes.

I think you can probably afford a more sophisticated device for
burning coal as it is a more energy dense fuel.

AJH

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From ronallarson at qwest.net Tue Nov 13 16:58:15 2001
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:19 2004
Subject: Fw: composition of woodsmoke
Message-ID: <001e01c16c8e$41378d00$5ce16641@computer>

 

Stovers:

I believe John intended this for
the full list - and so am forwarding it directly.  

John:

I have not yet had a chance to
read your sources below or do further research on this topic - but your
information (as usual) is very helpful. 

Are you able to answer John
Olsen's basic question - which is whether pellets/briquettes should have better
or worse smoke characteristics than raw wood (having bark)?  Assuming shall
we say the same EPA-approved stove (or give your own
qualifications)?

Ron


----- Original Message -----
From: <A
href="mailto:crouchpa@ix.netcom.com" title=crouchpa@ix.netcom.com>John
Crouch
To: <A href="mailto:ronallarson@qwest.net"
title=ronallarson@qwest.net>'Ron Larson'
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2001 12:53 PM
Subject: RE: composition of woodsmoke

<SPAN
class=260570818-13112001>Ron
As one
of the list members who deal with EPA-approved stoves I will try to help out
here.
You
are correct, Mary's web site, and organization, Burning Issues, is dedicated to
the end of all Household level Bio-mass combustion in any way, shape or
fashion.  The 1993 EPA document she sites is a little dated, and does not
indicate the proper relationship of the "notes", to the data (Mary doesn't care
about this type of thing).
<SPAN
class=260570818-13112001> 
<SPAN
class=260570818-13112001>Members of the list need to understand that our trade
association believes there are several problems with the historic EPA
understanding of the composition of woodsmoke, and we have encouraged Dr. James
Houck, of OMNI in Beaverton Oregon, to respond to some of the
misunderstandings.  For instance, in the l980's, a researcher tested
woodsmoke for a number of heavy metals, did not find any, but put down his LDL,
lower detection limit.  As a result the EPA's data base tagged us as a
source of Cadmium for many years!  Dr. Houck successfully argued that, if
there is any Cadmium in the process, it ends up in the ash, and not the
smoke.  You can find a great deal of his work at <A
href="http://www.omni-test.com/Publications.htm">http://www.omni-test.com/Publications.htm
<SPAN
class=260570818-13112001>although readers should be cautioned that some of these
publications are VERY specific to issues in the U.S., and between the North
American heating stove industry and USEPA.
<SPAN
class=260570818-13112001> 
All of
the lit on the composition of woodsmoke will certainly underscore why I, and
others in North America such as John Gulland, are very biased towards
chimneys.  I respect the fine work of many people who are attempting to
address the issues of clean combustion without the heat loss associated with
chimneys, but from our perspective, chimney vented bio-mass is superior to "room
vented" bio-mass everyday.
<SPAN
class=260570818-13112001> 
<SPAN
class=260570818-13112001>Finally, you are correct Ron, this data is largely
related to "conventional" or non-EPA North American style heaters (for more
examples of EPA units, see, for instance <A
href="http://www.jotulflame.com/jotulwood.html">http://www.jotulflame.com/jotulwood.html or
<A
href="http://www.lopistoves.com/product.asp?dept_id=4&sku=35">http://www.lopistoves.com/product.asp?dept_id=4&sku=35
in
fact, you'll notice in note #6 that some of the data are from
fireplaces.
The
best source in the U.S. for woodsmoke information is the AP-42 Emission Factors
of the USEPA. <A
href="http://www.epa.gov/ttn/chief/ap42/ch01/">http://www.epa.gov/ttn/chief/ap42/ch01/  
(see section 1.10).  Remember that some of the data for air toxics have
emission confidence levels of E, where A is the highest confidence. 
"E"  Indicates that data may be available from only a handful of tests,
perhaps even just one test and should be used with caution.
<SPAN
class=260570818-13112001> 
I hope
this is helpful.

John CrouchDirector of Public AffairsHearth, Patio &
Barbecue AssociationCalifornia Officecrouch@hpba.org916.536.2390

 
Thanks for asking this
question - as it led me for the first time to this "burningissues" web
site.  This is a non-profit group in California apparently dedicated to
stopping the use of wood-burning stoves.  This is obviously a sensitive
subject for our list - and one we need to address.

1.  It is a helpful
resource in the sense of emphasizing the health hazards in developing
countries (which seem not to be their focus - their data seems to
be mainly (but not entirely) for the US), which obviously must be worse
than in the US.  There is much emphasis on cancer - whereas the
developing country data I have seen seems to ignore the possibility of
cancer.

2.  It is not a helpful
resource, because I don't see an indication that this group is calling for
improved understanding and products - rather calling for prohibitions on
wood-burning stove use.


I guess and hope that our list
members who deal with modern EPA-approved stoves will know more and I hope
they will join in on a discussion of what we can learn from this
"burningissues" group.

The particular Table 2 is from
an EPA report that I will attempt to obtain ("1993 EPA Report, A Summary of
the Emissions Characterization and Noncancer Respiratory Effects of Wood
Smoke, EPA-453/R-93-036")  It seems to offer extremely high levels of
unburned (but easily combustible) products - not at all what I would expect
from an EPA-approved stove.   In fact, a charcoal-making
stove might not produce a gas as combustible as what is described as
"smoke" (they show that up to 37% of the input wood can appear as carbon
monoxide !!)

So, John, I would be cautious
in using this page of data - until we better understand the conditions under
which the data was obtained.  As Piet said, this data can help us to
figure out how to combust further to H2O and CO2 - but I don't believe that is
the question you want answered. 

Returning to the use of this
site's health data to push for more and better research on stoves in
developing countries - any ideas?

(This might be a good time to
say that I haven't heard anything from the Shell Foundation on their next
steps to get their stove program into existence - which is the best way I see
on the horizon to address these health issues.  I heard one rumor that
regional meetings might replace the London meeting that was called off a month
ago.)

Ron

<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
----- Original Message -----
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black">From:
<A href="mailto:pverhaart@optusnet.com.au"
title=pverhaart@optusnet.com.au>Peter Verhaart
To: <A href="mailto:Stoves@crest.org"
title=Stoves@crest.org>Stoves@crest.org
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2001 4:39
AM
Subject: Re: composition of
woodsmoke
At 11:40 12/11/01 -0800, you wrote:
<FONT
face="Times New Roman, Times" size=2>I have been asked for the
composition of  "pure woodsmoke", as it relates to the burning of dry
sawdust briquettes.<FONT face="Times New Roman, Times"
size=2>This study <A
href="http://www.burningissues.org/table2.htm">http://www.burningissues.org/table2.htm
has some scientific analysis.<FONT
face="Times New Roman, Times" size=2> I was wondering if anyone
has a reference for an updated analysis, as I am assuming most tests are
done with the bark on, and the moisture content high?<FONT
face="Times New Roman, Times" size=2>regards<FONT
face="Times New Roman, Times" size=2>John Olsen<FONT
face="Times New Roman, Times" size=2>Cree Industries 
SHIMADA/HeatlogThe study you mentioned looks
quite exhaustive and it would certainly give a typical composition of
woodsmoke.From this analysis a pyrophillic chemist would be able to
figure out the conditions needed to burn it completely eg into (mailny)
watervapour and CO2.What else do you want to know?In practise the
composition of the smoke would vary, initially there would be a lot of water
vapour, making it difficult to burn, in a later stage I would expect more
polycyclic compounds. On top of that the rate at which these substances are
evolved varies during the process, making stove techniques more difficult
than rocket
science.CheersPiet

From adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in Tue Nov 13 21:43:51 2001
From: adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in (A.D. Karve)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:19 2004
Subject: Pot sizes
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011112211150.00a87e20@mail.optusnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <005101c16cb9$2a9bfce0$1a9ec7cb@vsnl.net.in>

A household stove has to be designed to accept a large variety of pot shapes
and sizes. Therefore it is very difficult to optimize its design. This is
one of the reasons, why fuel use efficiency of 30% is more or less the upper
limit for domestic wood burning stoves. However, in the case of stoves in
community kitchens, like those in students' hostels, prisons or the army,
you can construct pot-specific stoves, (i.e. one stove for rice, another for
soup, a third for vegetables and a fourth one for the flat unleavened bread)
and then the fuel use efficiency goes up dramatically. 40% efficiency is
easily achievable.
A.D.Karve

----- Original Message -----
From: Thomas Reed <tombreed@home.com>
To: Peter Verhaart <pverhaart@optusnet.com.au>; Stoves <Stoves@crest.org>
Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 6:02 PM
Subject: Pot sizes

> Dear Piet and All;
>
> And in Ethiopia they mostly cook pancakes on the Enjira cooker - 60 cm in
> diameter! - to eat the rest of their food with...
>
> TOM REED
>
> Subject: Re: cooking information
>
>
> > Hi Paul,
> >
> > Your question is very relevant. I don't know of any databases
of
> > cooking vessels. During the life of the Woodburning Stove Group we found
> > that in an African country, I think it was Niger, we needed large
burners
> > for their large cooking pots because cooking was done for extended
> families.
> > Sorry I can't give relevant information, possibly Prasad (who is very
> > likely to read your posting) will be able to point you in the right
> direction.
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > Piet
> >
> >
> > At 11:19 11/11/01 -0500, you wrote:
> > >Hi All,
> > >
> > >
> > > Does anyone know of a database/information source containing
> > >information on cooking methods and vessels worldwide? Specifically I
> > >would be interested in learning about what size pots/pans people use
and
> > >what they cook in their pots and pans. I realize that this is a
> > >discussion group for stove technologies and my question is off topic,
> > >but it seems to me like the designers whould have their end users in
> > >mind when starting work. So hopefully, someone can point me in the
> > >correct direction.
> > >
> > >
> > >Thanks for your consideration!
> > >
> > >
> > >Paul DeBruicker
> > >
> > >-
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From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Tue Nov 13 23:01:11 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:19 2004
Subject: Refractories and Insulation
In-Reply-To: <8b.f0ae6b3.2922893a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3BF1EC62.55B1E1AD@cybershamanix.com>

I'm a bit bemused at my latest burns. I took my stove, made from
a 2lb coffee can with 2 holes punched in the bottom sides with a church
key, and a 24" length of 6" stove pipe with 1/4" holes spaced approx. 1"
apart around it, and replaced the flower pot I had been using in lieu of
a sleeve with a refractory cement I made. The cement mix was 1/2 cup of
portland cement, 1/2 cup of diatomaceous earth, 1 cup of water and 3.5
cups of perlite. I coated the sides of the can with this from top to
bottom, about 1/2" thick. Then I took a stainless steel drain grating 5"
in diameter that I got at Fleet Farm, and put that in the bottom for a
fire grate, it has little prongs on the bottom to hold it in a drain
pipe, which work well for legs, holding it about an inch off the bottom
of the can.
So last night I fired it up with a hand full of twigs of varying
diameters, about 6" long. The burn was far more furious than any yet,
with flames coming out of the top of 24" stove pipe which inserts in the
top of the can. And it all burned up, not a bit of charcoal left, also
didn't last more than about 20 minutes or so.
Hmm, I thought perhaps I had just had such a loose bunch of twigs,
and some of them dead branches from a yew tree, perhaps they're more
resinous?? Anyway, so tonight I carefully measured out 426 grams of wood
pellets. Started it up with a dozen or so wood pellets soaked briefly in
denatured alcohol. Same results -- flames coming out the top of the
pipe, everything's burnt to fine ashes.
I'm a bit mystified --- I've read about refractory cement acting
to reflect the heat back into the fire, but I had rather thought that
the riser sleeves some of you are using would do the same, and, in fact,
thought that the flower pot did likewise. Obviously I will try tomorrow
again with the wood pellets, and this time will have something ready to
reduce the air intakes. It could be I guess that the multiple holes in
the bottom of the flower pot just weren't letting enough primary air
thru, but looking at the set up it sure doesn't seem like there's all
that much greater air passage, in fact, at least one of the two
triangular holes punched with a church key is somewhat occluded by the
cement.

 

--
Harmon Seaver, MLIS
CyberShamanix
Work 920-203-9633
Home 920-233-5820
hseaver@cybershamanix.com
http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html

 

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From psanders at ilstu.edu Tue Nov 13 23:32:29 2001
From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:19 2004
Subject: Part 2 of stoves experiments: equipment - 01-11-11
In-Reply-To: <F80cEGNn3ETIIZYobGR00025721@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20011113221520.01a8b280@mail.ilstu.edu>

At 02:17 PM 11/13/01 -0800, Richard Stanley wrote:

>Good work.
>
>Can you sketch or digitally photograph and annotate the assembly, so I can
>visualise what you are doing ? As to air pipe control, try inserting a
>tight fitting )unperforated tube over or inside the perforated sleeve.
>Better if you have exact hole placement and can insrt a matching
>perforated tube which can then be simply turned to regulate air flow. The
>use of teh four inch can seems to nicely optimise the use of a briquette.
>Are are you thinking that direction and if so I will be very keen to track
>ytour progress, as it may be just the thing here in Comitan outlying rural
>communities.
>Hasta Luego,
My neighbor made a similar suggestion about the tube over the air
stick. Should work well.

I tried burning in the gasifier a briquette that I shaved to size to fit
the can. It was NOT a success. Too dense to let in the air for top
lighting, except through the hole that was too big, so the fire went to the
bottom and tried to burn regularly, but was short of air because of the air
stick. The "holey briquettes" have special characteristics that are very
good, but not in combination with a gasifier. Therefore, I do not think
that briquettes AS IS are a good match with the gasifier. We need a
specific stove(s) to optimize the briquettes.

But I did have nice burn of broken briquette pieces. Success for an
additional form of processed biomass.

Yes, I do need to post pictures. Just not enough time.

Paul
Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders

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From psanders at ilstu.edu Tue Nov 13 23:49:41 2001
From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:19 2004
Subject: Pot sizes
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011112211150.00a87e20@mail.optusnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20011113224010.01a87270@mail.ilstu.edu>

Comment below about what A.D. Karve wrote:
>A household stove has to be designed to accept a large variety of pot shapes
>and sizes. Therefore it is very difficult to optimize its design. This is
>one of the reasons, why fuel use efficiency of 30% is more or less the upper
>limit for domestic wood burning stoves. However, in the case of stoves in
>community kitchens, like those in students' hostels, prisons or the army,
>you can construct pot-specific stoves, (i.e. one stove for rice, another for
>soup, a third for vegetables and a fourth one for the flat unleavened bread)
>and then the fuel use efficiency goes up dramatically. 40% efficiency is
>easily achievable.
>A.D.Karve

Do others agree that 30% and 40% are sufficiently accurate to be a target
against which we can measure some successes and failures?

Prediction: We will significantly improve upon the percentages by using
gasifier stoves, and those gasifiers will be sufficiently in-expensive to
allow for some (not all) stoves to be pot-specific in size.

Hey, talk is cheap. I hope I do not need to regret those words someday.

Meanwhile, we need to establish (agree upon) some ways to measure such
efficiency that everyone can use with confidence.

Seems to me that numbers like 30 and 40 and 50 have only one significant
digit, so plus-or-minus 5 or 10 percent is about the best we can do.

Nice to be talking with friends.

Paul

Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders

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From psanders at ilstu.edu Tue Nov 13 23:56:23 2001
From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:19 2004
Subject: Refractories and Insulation
In-Reply-To: <8b.f0ae6b3.2922893a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20011113225711.01a8f7d0@mail.ilstu.edu>

Harmon,

I know nothing about the insulation issue, but I think you have too much
primary air.

Questions:

Is your fire staying as a top-lighted fire and moving down through the
fuel? Or is the fire from the top dropping down to the bottom, then
giving you this roaring flame of short duration? I suspect the latter was
the case with the twigs, but I am less sure that it occurred that way with
the pellets.

I like smaller containers at present.

Paul

At 10:00 PM 11/13/01 -0600, Harmon Seaver wrote:
> I'm a bit bemused at my latest burns. I took my stove, made from
>a 2lb coffee can with 2 holes punched in the bottom sides with a church
>key, and a 24" length of 6" stove pipe with 1/4" holes spaced approx. 1"
>apart around it, and replaced the flower pot I had been using in lieu of
>a sleeve with a refractory cement I made. The cement mix was 1/2 cup of
>portland cement, 1/2 cup of diatomaceous earth, 1 cup of water and 3.5
>cups of perlite. I coated the sides of the can with this from top to
>bottom, about 1/2" thick. Then I took a stainless steel drain grating 5"
>in diameter that I got at Fleet Farm, and put that in the bottom for a
>fire grate, it has little prongs on the bottom to hold it in a drain
>pipe, which work well for legs, holding it about an inch off the bottom
>of the can.
> So last night I fired it up with a hand full of twigs of varying
>diameters, about 6" long. The burn was far more furious than any yet,
>with flames coming out of the top of 24" stove pipe which inserts in the
>top of the can. And it all burned up, not a bit of charcoal left, also
>didn't last more than about 20 minutes or so.
> Hmm, I thought perhaps I had just had such a loose bunch of twigs,
>and some of them dead branches from a yew tree, perhaps they're more
>resinous?? Anyway, so tonight I carefully measured out 426 grams of wood
>pellets. Started it up with a dozen or so wood pellets soaked briefly in
>denatured alcohol. Same results -- flames coming out the top of the
>pipe, everything's burnt to fine ashes.
> I'm a bit mystified --- I've read about refractory cement acting
>to reflect the heat back into the fire, but I had rather thought that
>the riser sleeves some of you are using would do the same, and, in fact,
>thought that the flower pot did likewise. Obviously I will try tomorrow
>again with the wood pellets, and this time will have something ready to
>reduce the air intakes. It could be I guess that the multiple holes in
>the bottom of the flower pot just weren't letting enough primary air
>thru, but looking at the set up it sure doesn't seem like there's all
>that much greater air passage, in fact, at least one of the two
>triangular holes punched with a church key is somewhat occluded by the
>cement.
>
>
>
>--
>Harmon Seaver, MLIS
>CyberShamanix
>Work 920-203-9633
>Home 920-233-5820
>hseaver@cybershamanix.com
>http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html
>
>
>
>-
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>
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>-
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>
>For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
>http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders

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From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Wed Nov 14 00:24:08 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:19 2004
Subject: Refractories and Insulation
In-Reply-To: <8b.f0ae6b3.2922893a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3BF1FFD3.1A993B8E@cybershamanix.com>

I think it's unlikely that the fire is dropping thru the dense
layer of pellets, but it could be too much primary air. I'll find out
tomorrow, when I'll close off some of it. I like your idea of the air
tube, I think my next stove will use that. Also my next stove is going
to be a 4" wide V8 juice can (quite tall -- 7 or 8 inches??) inside a
6"x6" coffee can, with my refractory cement mix in between the two
walls. I've got another little stainless grate (drain plate) like the
other one but just fits in a 4" can. And then another V8 juice can atop
the first, not sure whether the secondary air will be at that juncture
or lower -- and probably a second coffee can with cement around that as
well.
Small might well be better for a cooking stove, but I'm really
aiming at a bigger stove, so I'm going to also have to try one of those
13"x25" 15gallon drums sooner rather than later.

--
Harmon Seaver, MLIS
CyberShamanix
Work 920-203-9633
Home 920-233-5820
hseaver@cybershamanix.com
http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html

 

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From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Wed Nov 14 00:28:27 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:19 2004
Subject: Tinder for Stoves
In-Reply-To: <158bc19fc9.19fc9158bc@pmel.noaa.gov>
Message-ID: <3BF200D6.2863C39A@cybershamanix.com>

I tried soaking some wood pellets in denatured alcohol tonight just
for a minute or two, and then dropping a dozen or so on the pellet fire
load -- much, much better solution than lighting with a propane torch.
I'll have to try some other things -- the pellets fall apart pretty
quickly when wet with H2O, for sure, wood chips would be better.

--
Harmon Seaver, MLIS
CyberShamanix
Work 920-203-9633
Home 920-233-5820
hseaver@cybershamanix.com
http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html

 

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From dstill at epud.net Wed Nov 14 02:03:41 2001
From: dstill at epud.net (Dean Still)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:19 2004
Subject: Pot sizes and fires vs. pots
Message-ID: <002301c16d11$01a8dd00$5115210c@default>

Dear Paul and Stovers:

I'd like to comment on the issue of fuel efficiency as touched on below:

Do others agree that 30% and 40% are sufficiently accurate to be a target
>against which we can measure some successes and failures?
>
>Prediction: We will significantly improve upon the percentages by using
>gasifier stoves, and those gasifiers will be sufficiently in-expensive to
>allow for some (not all) stoves to be pot-specific in size.

How would the combustion pattern have a big effect on fuel efficiency? If a
really horrible open fire results in 80% of the fuel combusting and a
wonderful stove achieves 100% combustion efficiency there is no huge gain in
total heat transfer efficiency since pots are very bad heat exchangers. For
example, 80% combustion efficiency times 40% heat transfer efficiency is
32%. 100% times 40% is 40%.

Tended open fires are closer to something like 95% combustion efficiency.
When our stoves get close to 100% it's no big improvement.

Pots don't have enough surface area to effectively capture heat. So in our
experiments, like those done by A.D. Karve, we are doing great to get 30% of
the 8,600 BTU's released from a pound of dry wood into the water in a pot.
Big pots do better than small pots. Full pots are better than half empty
pots. Multiple pot stoves raise efficiency up to 40%. In the lab it's
possible to get close to 50% but that's using a skirt that covers the top of
the pot forcing hot flue gases to pass over that surface as well. Not
practical. Fans help to raise percentages, maybe because hot flue gases hit
the pot faster. But fans are not practical where we work.

All cooking stoves can be responsive to different sized pots by manually
sizing the fire to the pot size but much more importantly, the skirt around
the pots can be opened and closed, fitted, to create the optimum gap next to
the particular pot. A adjustable sheet metal skirt that surrounds the pot
forcing hot flue gases to scrape against the pot sides results in the big
fuel savings we are desiring. Paying attention to the pot rather than the
fire results in greater gains in fuel efficiency.

A sheet metal cylinder around the pot isn't as sexy as combustion trickery
but it works wonders. As does it's bigger brother: the HAYBOX, which
improves heat transfer to the pot so well that food can be cooked using 1/4
the fuel. There's your miraculous breakthrough, Paul...a box full of
insulation that does all the simmering using only retained heat in the
enclosed pot.

Best,

Dean
>

 

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From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Wed Nov 14 02:14:14 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:19 2004
Subject: Fw: composition of woodsmoke
In-Reply-To: <001e01c16c8e$41378d00$5ce16641@computer>
Message-ID: <3BF2199C.990A1592@cybershamanix.com>

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: John Crouch
> To: 'Ron Larson'Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2001 12:53 PMSubject: RE:
> composition of woodsmoke
> All of the lit on the composition of woodsmoke will certainly
> underscore why I, and others in North America such as John Gulland,
> are very biased towards chimneys. I respect the fine work of many
> people who are attempting to address the issues of clean combustion
> without the heat loss associated with chimneys, but from our
> perspective, chimney vented bio-mass is superior to "room vented"
> bio-mass everyday.
> Oh dear -- number one, John, in terms of pollution, could you,
> would you, please, oh please, turn off the html on your mail reader?
> Do you see, right here, where I can't break the "quote" line for the
> reply? Not to mention the fact that when I'm trying to read this stuff
> online in my shell account with a non-html reader it looks like total
> garbage?
> Purple prose perhaps is pretty, but it also can be quite hard to
> read. Mail lists need be kept simple, for us simple folk.
>
> Well, anyway, down to the *real* issue -- chimneys. I was simply
> amazed one day when I was looking at chimney stuff out a Fleet Farm,
> and came across pellet stove stove pipe. Wowzers! I've been burning
> wood for ages -- our *only* cookstove was wood fired for 18 years,
> likewise our only heat -- and *anything less than 6" was unthinkable,
> even for the cookstove, heater *had* to have 8".
> So what's this 3" pellet stove thing? Hard to believe. Then I
> built my first IDD coffee can stove. Hmmm! And, since I read a few
> books on gasification way back there in the dark ages, I knew that,
> well, hopefully, at least, the only emission was H2O and CO2,
> everything is kosher, right?
> Yah, vell, okay. Maybe. So a little chimney ain't such a bad idear.
> Especially when you light it off and it don't go quite right.
> Eventually you get a clean burn, but, believe me, the two cats that
> live in my greenhouse were not real happy with my first "clean burn"
> show and tell. Stunk it up real good for a couple days, eh? Don't know
> fer shur what the plants thought. Maybe they liked it, maybe not.
> On the udder hand, John, I sure don't like that idea of all that
> woodsmoke going up the chimney, especially now that I know about all
> those nice hot burnables going up with it. Not to mention all the heat
> required to take it up there. Seems like a real lose/lose situation.
> Well, anyway, I think wood heat design has got an awfully long way
> to go yet. I'm wondering just how small a "chimney" you really need.
> Two inch? One inch? God forbid, 1/2" with a good blower?
> Or can we just get the gasification thing down so close that all
> we really have, at any given moment, is H2O and CO2 coming off (gee,
> would my plants ever love that), or even, since in the Winter we all
> need lots more H2O in the house anyway (else why would we have all
> those humidifiers, pans of water, etc.) and possibly the CO2 gets
> diverted to elsewhere? Pumped into selzter bottles?
> Yes, this is all just a lot of late night rambling caused by my
> stupidly drinking a double latte (me, a confirmed green tea drinker)
> on the late drive home from my wife's aunt, but anway ----
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Finally, you are correct Ron, this data is largely related to
> "conventional" or non-EPA North American style heaters (for more
> examples of EPA units, see, for instance
> http://www.jotulflame.com/jotulwood.html or
> http://www.lopistoves.com/product.asp?dept_id=4&sku=35in fact, you'll
> notice in note #6 that some of the data are from fireplaces.The best
> source in the U.S. for woodsmoke information is the AP-42 Emission
> Factors of the USEPA. http://www.epa.gov/ttn/chief/ap42/ch01/ (see
> section 1.10). Remember that some of the data for air toxics have
> emission confidence levels of E, where A is the highest confidence.
> "E" Indicates that data may be available from only a handful of
> tests, perhaps even just one test and should be used with caution. I
> hope this is helpful.
>
> John Crouch
> Director of Public Affairs
> Hearth, Patio & Barbecue Association
> California Office
> crouch@hpba.org
> 916.536.2390
>
> Thanks for asking this question - as it led me for the
> first time to this "burningissues" web site. This is a
> non-profit group in California apparently dedicated to
> stopping the use of wood-burning stoves. This is obviously
> a sensitive subject for our list - and one we need to
> address. 1. It is a helpful resource in the sense of
> emphasizing the health hazards in developing countries
> (which seem not to be their focus - their data seems to be
> mainly (but not entirely) for the US), which obviously must
> be worse than in the US. There is much emphasis on cancer -
> whereas the developing country data I have seen seems to
> ignore the possibility of cancer. 2. It is not a
> helpful resource, because I don't see an indication that
> this group is calling for improved understanding and
> products - rather calling for prohibitions on wood-burning
> stove use. I guess and hope that our list members who
> deal with modern EPA-approved stoves will know more and I
> hope they will join in on a discussion of what we can learn
> from this "burningissues" group. The particular Table 2
> is from an EPA report that I will attempt to obtain ("1993
> EPA Report, A Summary of the Emissions Characterization and
> Noncancer Respiratory Effects of Wood Smoke,
> EPA-453/R-93-036") It seems to offer extremely high levels
> of unburned (but easily combustible) products - not at all
> what I would expect from an EPA-approved stove. In fact, a
> charcoal-making stove might not produce a gas as combustible
> as what is described as "smoke" (they show that up to 37% of
> the input wood can appear as carbon monoxide !!) So,
> John, I would be cautious in using this page of data - until
> we better understand the conditions under which the data was
> obtained. As Piet said, this data can help us to figure out
> how to combust further to H2O and CO2 - but I don't believe
> that is the question you want answered. Returning to the
> use of this site's health data to push for more and better
> research on stoves in developing countries - any ideas?
> (This might be a good time to say that I haven't heard
> anything from the Shell Foundation on their next steps to
> get their stove program into existence - which is the best
> way I see on the horizon to address these health issues. I
> heard one rumor that regional meetings might replace the
> London meeting that was called off a month ago.) Ron
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Peter Verhaart
> To: Stoves@crest.org
> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2001 4:39 AM
> Subject: Re: composition of woodsmoke
> At 11:40 12/11/01 -0800, you wrote:
>
> > I have been asked for the composition of "pure
> > woodsmoke", as it relates to the burning of dry
> > sawdust briquettes.
> > This study
> > http://www.burningissues.org/table2.htm has some
> > scientific analysis.
> > I was wondering if anyone has a reference for
> > an updated analysis, as I am assuming most tests
> > are done with the bark on, and the moisture
> > content high?
> > regards
> > John Olsen
> > Cree Industries SHIMADA/Heatlog
>
>
> The study you mentioned looks quite exhaustive and
> it would certainly give a typical composition of
> woodsmoke.
> From this analysis a pyrophillic chemist would be
> able to figure out the conditions needed to burn
> it completely eg into (mailny) watervapour and
> CO2.
> What else do you want to know?
> In practise the composition of the smoke would
> vary, initially there would be a lot of water
> vapour, making it difficult to burn, in a later
> stage I would expect more polycyclic compounds. On
> top of that the rate at which these substances are
> evolved varies during the process, making stove
> techniques more difficult than rocket science.
>
> Cheers
>
> Piet
>
>
--
Harmon Seaver, MLIS
CyberShamanix
Work 920-203-9633
Home 920-233-5820
hseaver@cybershamanix.com
http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html

 

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From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Wed Nov 14 02:25:47 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:19 2004
Subject: Pot sizes and fires vs. pots
In-Reply-To: <002301c16d11$01a8dd00$5115210c@default>
Message-ID: <3BF21C57.11D0373A@cybershamanix.com>

Dean Still wrote:

> A sheet metal cylinder around the pot isn't as sexy as combustion trickery
> but it works wonders. As does it's bigger brother: the HAYBOX, which
> improves heat transfer to the pot so well that food can be cooked using 1/4
> the fuel. There's your miraculous breakthrough, Paul...a box full of
> insulation that does all the simmering using only retained heat in the
> enclosed pot.

Yes, so instead of the haybox, let's think of an IDD type stove, fitting
into the bottom of an "oven" of sorts. Say maybe even the second or upper 2
gallon coffee can is built into the "oven." And the oven, to keep it in 3rd
World perspective, is made from two tins or drums, one a bit larger, and with
perlite or somesuch refractory cement in between them.

--
Harmon Seaver, MLIS
CyberShamanix
Work 920-203-9633
Home 920-233-5820
hseaver@cybershamanix.com
http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html

 

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From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Wed Nov 14 02:29:39 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:19 2004
Subject: Fw: composition of woodsmoke
In-Reply-To: <001e01c16c8e$41378d00$5ce16641@computer>
Message-ID: <3BF21D3C.205F2F37@cybershamanix.com>

Now doesn't that suck -- because of the previous poster's use of html in
the message, my mail reader couldn't separate the, umm, "wheat" from the
"chaff." Oh well.

Harmon Seaver wrote:

> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: John Crouch
> > To: 'Ron Larson'Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2001 12:53 PMSubject: RE:
> > composition of woodsmoke
> > All of the lit on the composition of woodsmoke will certainly
> > underscore why I, and others in North America such as John Gulland,
> > are very biased towards chimneys. I respect the fine work of many
> > people who are attempting to address the issues of clean combustion
> > without the heat loss associated with chimneys, but from our
> > perspective, chimney vented bio-mass is superior to "room vented"
> > bio-mass everyday.
> > Oh dear -- number one, John, in terms of pollution, could you,
> > would you, please, oh please, turn off the html on your mail reader?
> > Do you see, right here, where I can't break the "quote" line for the
> > reply? Not to mention the fact that when I'm trying to read this stuff
> > online in my shell account with a non-html reader it looks like total
> > garbage?
> > Purple prose perhaps is pretty, but it also can be quite hard to
> > read. Mail lists need be kept simple, for us simple folk.
> >
> > Well, anyway, down to the *real* issue -- chimneys. I was simply
> > amazed one day when I was looking at chimney stuff out a Fleet Farm,
> > and came across pellet stove stove pipe. Wowzers! I've been burning
> > wood for ages -- our *only* cookstove was wood fired for 18 years,
> > likewise our only heat -- and *anything less than 6" was unthinkable,
> > even for the cookstove, heater *had* to have 8".
> > So what's this 3" pellet stove thing? Hard to believe. Then I
> > built my first IDD coffee can stove. Hmmm! And, since I read a few
> > books on gasification way back there in the dark ages, I knew that,
> > well, hopefully, at least, the only emission was H2O and CO2,
> > everything is kosher, right?
> > Yah, vell, okay. Maybe. So a little chimney ain't such a bad idear.
> > Especially when you light it off and it don't go quite right.
> > Eventually you get a clean burn, but, believe me, the two cats that
> > live in my greenhouse were not real happy with my first "clean burn"
> > show and tell. Stunk it up real good for a couple days, eh? Don't know
> > fer shur what the plants thought. Maybe they liked it, maybe not.
> > On the udder hand, John, I sure don't like that idea of all that
> > woodsmoke going up the chimney, especially now that I know about all
> > those nice hot burnables going up with it. Not to mention all the heat
> > required to take it up there. Seems like a real lose/lose situation.
> > Well, anyway, I think wood heat design has got an awfully long way
> > to go yet. I'm wondering just how small a "chimney" you really need.
> > Two inch? One inch? God forbid, 1/2" with a good blower?
> > Or can we just get the gasification thing down so close that all
> > we really have, at any given moment, is H2O and CO2 coming off (gee,
> > would my plants ever love that), or even, since in the Winter we all
> > need lots more H2O in the house anyway (else why would we have all
> > those humidifiers, pans of water, etc.) and possibly the CO2 gets
> > diverted to elsewhere? Pumped into selzter bottles?
> > Yes, this is all just a lot of late night rambling caused by my
> > stupidly drinking a double latte (me, a confirmed green tea drinker)
> > on the late drive home from my wife's aunt, but anway ----
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Finally, you are correct Ron, this data is largely related to
> > "conventional" or non-EPA North American style heaters (for more
> > examples of EPA units, see, for instance
> > http://www.jotulflame.com/jotulwood.html or
> > http://www.lopistoves.com/product.asp?dept_id=4&sku=35in fact, you'll
> > notice in note #6 that some of the data are from fireplaces.The best
> > source in the U.S. for woodsmoke information is the AP-42 Emission
> > Factors of the USEPA. http://www.epa.gov/ttn/chief/ap42/ch01/ (see
> > section 1.10). Remember that some of the data for air toxics have
> > emission confidence levels of E, where A is the highest confidence.
> > "E" Indicates that data may be available from only a handful of
> > tests, perhaps even just one test and should be used with caution. I
> > hope this is helpful.
> >
> > John Crouch
> > Director of Public Affairs
> > Hearth, Patio & Barbecue Association
> > California Office
> > crouch@hpba.org
> > 916.536.2390
> >
> > Thanks for asking this question - as it led me for the
> > first time to this "burningissues" web site. This is a
> > non-profit group in California apparently dedicated to
> > stopping the use of wood-burning stoves. This is obviously
> > a sensitive subject for our list - and one we need to
> > address. 1. It is a helpful resource in the sense of
> > emphasizing the health hazards in developing countries
> > (which seem not to be their focus - their data seems to be
> > mainly (but not entirely) for the US), which obviously must
> > be worse than in the US. There is much emphasis on cancer -
> > whereas the developing country data I have seen seems to
> > ignore the possibility of cancer. 2. It is not a
> > helpful resource, because I don't see an indication that
> > this group is calling for improved understanding and
> > products - rather calling for prohibitions on wood-burning
> > stove use. I guess and hope that our list members who
> > deal with modern EPA-approved stoves will know more and I
> > hope they will join in on a discussion of what we can learn
> > from this "burningissues" group. The particular Table 2
> > is from an EPA report that I will attempt to obtain ("1993
> > EPA Report, A Summary of the Emissions Characterization and
> > Noncancer Respiratory Effects of Wood Smoke,
> > EPA-453/R-93-036") It seems to offer extremely high levels
> > of unburned (but easily combustible) products - not at all
> > what I would expect from an EPA-approved stove. In fact, a
> > charcoal-making stove might not produce a gas as combustible
> > as what is described as "smoke" (they show that up to 37% of
> > the input wood can appear as carbon monoxide !!) So,
> > John, I would be cautious in using this page of data - until
> > we better understand the conditions under which the data was
> > obtained. As Piet said, this data can help us to figure out
> > how to combust further to H2O and CO2 - but I don't believe
> > that is the question you want answered. Returning to the
> > use of this site's health data to push for more and better
> > research on stoves in developing countries - any ideas?
> > (This might be a good time to say that I haven't heard
> > anything from the Shell Foundation on their next steps to
> > get their stove program into existence - which is the best
> > way I see on the horizon to address these health issues. I
> > heard one rumor that regional meetings might replace the
> > London meeting that was called off a month ago.) Ron
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Peter Verhaart
> > To: Stoves@crest.org
> > Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2001 4:39 AM
> > Subject: Re: composition of woodsmoke
> > At 11:40 12/11/01 -0800, you wrote:
> >
> > > I have been asked for the composition of "pure
> > > woodsmoke", as it relates to the burning of dry
> > > sawdust briquettes.
> > > This study
> > > http://www.burningissues.org/table2.htm has some
> > > scientific analysis.
> > > I was wondering if anyone has a reference for
> > > an updated analysis, as I am assuming most tests
> > > are done with the bark on, and the moisture
> > > content high?
> > > regards
> > > John Olsen
> > > Cree Industries SHIMADA/Heatlog
> >
> >
> > The study you mentioned looks quite exhaustive and
> > it would certainly give a typical composition of
> > woodsmoke.
> > From this analysis a pyrophillic chemist would be
> > able to figure out the conditions needed to burn
> > it completely eg into (mailny) watervapour and
> > CO2.
> > What else do you want to know?
> > In practise the composition of the smoke would
> > vary, initially there would be a lot of water
> > vapour, making it difficult to burn, in a later
> > stage I would expect more polycyclic compounds. On
> > top of that the rate at which these substances are
> > evolved varies during the process, making stove
> > techniques more difficult than rocket science.
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > Piet
> >
> >
> --
> Harmon Seaver, MLIS
> CyberShamanix
> Work 920-203-9633
> Home 920-233-5820
> hseaver@cybershamanix.com
> http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html
>
> -
> Stoves List Archives and Website:
> http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
> http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
>
> Stoves List Moderators:
> Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
> Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
> Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
>
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>
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> -
> Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
> http://www.fsec.ucf.edu/bioam/
> http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
> http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml
>
> For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
> http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

--
Harmon Seaver, MLIS
CyberShamanix
Work 920-203-9633
Home 920-233-5820
hseaver@cybershamanix.com
http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html

 

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From larch at kootenay.com Wed Nov 14 02:44:35 2001
From: larch at kootenay.com (David)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:19 2004
Subject: Refractories and Insulation
In-Reply-To: <8b.f0ae6b3.2922893a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3BF220A6.5F504B1A@kootenay.com>

Hello stoves:
I'm a new member, a virgin-stove-builder by hobby, a small wood flooring
manufacturer by day. Looking long for just the right super creative
woodwaste solutions.

I pulled from my bin tonight a date-expired 20# BBQ cylinder and a
hydronic expansion tank with incontinence. For the fine shavings I'm
looking at it will be too small, I think, for a bronze furnace or steam
generator, but I'm also eying a 50' length of 24" surplus gasline pipe!

My first impression on stove design is that the method of fueling the
stove will be the first, biggest design constraint. I blow my shavings
into 1 cubic yard bags "sling bins" and contemplating if I can auger right
from the bag.

In any case, greetings!

David Strom

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From dstill at epud.net Wed Nov 14 03:29:34 2001
From: dstill at epud.net (Dean Still)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:19 2004
Subject: Pot sizes and hayboxes and fires vs. pots
Message-ID: <004201c16d1d$051c3b60$5115210c@default>

Dear Harmon,

Well,. kind of...your design is what we use in the lab to get closer to 50%
heat transfer efficiency to the pot, basically enclosing the pot in an
optimized oven but the air is still rushing through it and those hundreds of
air exchanges per hour shoot half of the heat up the chimney. A great haybox
needs to be airtight, like a energy efficient house. And women don't seem to
like to cook in an oven since they need to stir the beans, look at the food
as it's cooking, the lid gets sooty, etc.

Better to heat the food on the improved cook stove or open fire or IDD
stove, etc. to boiling, using a skirt, then transfer it to the haybox? The
haybox is so powerful at saving fuel that the choice of heating apparatus
will not effect fuel efficiency very much!

Not sure if it's always true but in my class I pass on the rule of thumb:
FOR EFFICIENCY SEPARATE FUNCTIONS.

There was a woman in South Africa who invented the WonderBox, a sealed
haybox in which food was cooked by candles, I think...heat passed through a
thin metal plate to the pot.

When I think of super efficient wood burning cooking stoves my mind wanders
into pretty pictures of a super insulated, tight box full of convoluted
steel plates that absorb all of the heat from a fan driven fire so that exit
temperatures are at room temp. Once the steel plates are at 450 F food is
baked to completion. Excess heat is either stored or used to heat room,
water, etc. We design bread ovens that look like that.

But I can't figure a way to get really good heat transfer to a pot sitting
on top of a stove all by its lonesome in the air...an inherently inefficient
placement? But great for cooking?

Best,

Dean Still
Aprovecho Research Center

 

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From pverhaart at optusnet.com.au Wed Nov 14 05:36:32 2001
From: pverhaart at optusnet.com.au (Peter Verhaart)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:20 2004
Subject: composition of woodsmoke
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011113213112.00a8f920@mail.optusnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011114203325.00a89e20@mail.optusnet.com.au>

It sounds like they have made use of downdraft. My barbecue would also
qualify as a smokeless wood burner.
Cheers
Piet

At 11:15 13/11/01 -0800, you wrote:
Thomas,
My research has led me to another stove which shows great
promise,
after 30 years of developement in the
UK.
http://www.dunsleyheat.co.uk/yorkshirestove.htm
John Olsen

From Tami.Bond at noaa.gov Wed Nov 14 06:18:12 2001
From: Tami.Bond at noaa.gov (Tami Bond)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:20 2004
Subject: Tinder for Stoves
Message-ID: <1b66b1cd07.1cd071b66b@pmel.noaa.gov>

 

Tom,

> On the other hand Ron Larson was shocked to see me start the stove
> with a propane torch or alcohol chips. Don't have that in Timbuktu,
> so can't use it. He used pine needles - not too bad, but don't have
> them everywhereeither. What does he recommend today?

As I said, I use barbecue briquettes (Kingsford) to light my Chinese
holey-coal, which would horrify a purist. I do it for a specific
reason; because I test emissions, the bbq emissions are small and easy
to separate and fairly consistent (lots of NaCl), so I can really see
what's coming off the coal.

In terms of total emissions per task, lighting is very important, and
the initial devolatilization process is quite key as well-- at least
for coal. For high-vol bituminous, it seems easy to get the coal hot
enough to devolatilize but not hot enough to oxidize.

For some Asian briquettes, I've seen 'easy lighting' advertised. Mixing
higher-vol material, maybe in an outside layer only? Or a small nuclear
reactor, as you suggest? ;-) Hey, how 'bout that cold fusion? Kidding
aside, I think this is an important issue-- not just lightability, but
re-lightability. What difference does it make if we increase stove
efficiency, if you just have to burn the whole briquette once it's
started anyway?

> I presume the sequence of events is that the alcohol on the surface
> initially provides volatile fuel to burn. Then as the surface
> alcohol is depleted pyrolysis of the chips begins while being
> supported from alcoholwithin.

Sounds right to me. The trick is, I think, generating enough heat with
volatile matter that will self-mix with air, thereby allowing enough
chain-branching reactions to occur that ignition can take place. But,
this material must not escape from the matrix too quickly, or it will
take the heat with it.

> As to the alcohol, lighter fluid, kerosene, diesel would all work,
> but give
> a smoky flame, while the alcohol gives a BEAUTIFUL blue flame.
> Probablyeven vegetable oils or animal fats would work.

Hmmm... I think of oil or fat as smoky, because they're heavier HC? But
then, one can burn candles cleanly, if they're not quenched.

> As to the COAL LIGHTING problem, I am thinking of a pyrotechnic
> addition to the tinder such as sodium or ammounium nitrate which
> could give an INSTANTand dramatic burning bed and be fun.

We will suggest this to the Chinese for New Year's celebrations.
"Green dragon fire lighter" ;-)
But for the rural people, we got to keep it simple!

Tami

 

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From psanders at ilstu.edu Wed Nov 14 14:55:40 2001
From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:20 2004
Subject: Refractories and Insulation
In-Reply-To: <8b.f0ae6b3.2922893a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20011114103426.0170dc50@mail.ilstu.edu>

Suggestion:

1. Try the 4 inch gasifier first without the refractory cement mix. Take
notes. Then put on the mix and see if any differences. Being on the
outside of the inner can, the mix should NOT lengthen the life of the
can. Remember that the Reed-Larson unit has the riser sleeve INSIDE,
primarily to protect the can (because they burned the high-heat charcoal in
that same container in the second part of their burning, that is, after the
gasification is completed.)

2. To let in the secondary air in the 2 V8-can unit, you might
A. just put a spacer (about one-eight inch) between the two
cans. Three spacers of chrunched aluminum foil in the shape of an "H"
would keep the cans together but sufficiently spaced.
B. If you can get a 5 inch diameter can or anything slightly
bigger than 4 inch, you can suspend it overlapping approximately an inch or
two the upper lip of the lower can. I have made "S" shaped hooks
of coathanger wire (3 of them is sufficient) to allow the upper unit to
hang lower than the inner - lower can.

Everyone: Harmon and I are having all the fun. Is anyone else making
these simple gasifiers?

Paul

At 11:23 PM 11/13/01 -0600, Harmon Seaver wrote:
> I think it's unlikely that the fire is dropping thru the dense
>layer of pellets, but it could be too much primary air. I'll find out
>tomorrow, when I'll close off some of it. I like your idea of the air
>tube, I think my next stove will use that. Also my next stove is going
>to be a 4" wide V8 juice can (quite tall -- 7 or 8 inches??) inside a
>6"x6" coffee can, with my refractory cement mix in between the two
>walls. I've got another little stainless grate (drain plate) like the
>other one but just fits in a 4" can. And then another V8 juice can atop
>the first, not sure whether the secondary air will be at that juncture
>or lower -- and probably a second coffee can with cement around that as
>well.
> Small might well be better for a cooking stove, but I'm really
>aiming at a bigger stove, so I'm going to also have to try one of those
>13"x25" 15gallon drums sooner rather than later.
>
>
>--
>Harmon Seaver, MLIS
>CyberShamanix
>Work 920-203-9633
>Home 920-233-5820
>hseaver@cybershamanix.com
>http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html

Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders

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From ronallarson at qwest.net Wed Nov 14 17:06:48 2001
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:20 2004
Subject: Efficiency vs health impacts (followup to Dean Still)
In-Reply-To: <002301c16d11$01a8dd00$5115210c@default>
Message-ID: <010101c16d58$d4d40960$59e56641@computer>

Stovers:

The following is in response to Dean's message today - but with a new
title since I hope to establish a new thread.

Dean (in responding to Paul Anderson) makes the following point about
combustion efficiency:

> How would the combustion pattern have a big effect on fuel efficiency? If
a
> really horrible open fire results in 80% of the fuel combusting and a
> wonderful stove achieves 100% combustion efficiency there is no huge gain
in
> total heat transfer efficiency since pots are very bad heat exchangers.

I take no exception to this nor any of the remainder of Dean's message -
heat transfer to the pot is critical and we all hope that we can find some
good ways to improve that.

The new thread I want to get started is the huge difference between 100%
combustion efficiency and even 95% (much less 80%) when we talk about the
stove's impact on human health. (and global climate change)

The rules of our "stoves" game have changed in the last year or so - now
we must be striving for high combustion efficiency - not high total
conversion efficiency. At least this will be true if we want to be part of
the Shell Foundation program. Fortunately most of our discussion has been
on stoves that appear to do both - but I am not yet aware of any
quantitative emission results that might help pick one stove that may be
better than others. I have my suspicions.

If you are into charcoal-making, your motivation will not be any of
these - but probably mostly desertification and income generation.

Ron

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From crispin at newdawn.sz Thu Nov 15 06:07:41 2001
From: crispin at newdawn.sz (New Dawn Engineering /ATEX)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:20 2004
Subject: Pots and Pans
Message-ID: <019a01c16dc6$d198f8a0$f8e80fc4@am29>

Dear Paul

In Zimbabwe people use flat bottomed pots and almost no three-legged pots
made from Cast iron. This has affected stove development, essentially
allowing more progress over the years. This is because not only are flat
bottomed pots more efficient receivers of heat, they are easier to
accomodate in a regular stove. The delay in the acceptance of the Tsotso
stove and similar devices in Swaziland was solely because of the local (in
Swaziland) historical preference for three-legged cast iron pots.

The Swazi market is being influenced by Mozambicano artisans who arrived
here evading the war back home. They started very simple foundries in
fields with a couple of tools making three-legged pots from aluminum -
something not seen before. These have very different cooking
characteristics but remain the same basic shape. That shape is a problem
for small stoves which were conceived to accept flat bottoms.

The most common pots are 4 litre (total) used to cook the 'main starch' and
then a smaller one to cook the 'relish' or 'meat' depending on where you
are. Poor people do often use only one pot but it is most common to see two
pots being used at a time. They require different heating/cooking regimens.

Swaziland is changing over to flat bottomed aluminum pots mostly due to
price and the availability of propane and paraffin stoves which are not
suitable for three legs.

Regards
Crispin

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From psanders at ilstu.edu Thu Nov 15 19:11:16 2001
From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:20 2004
Subject: Gasifier sizes
In-Reply-To: <8b.f0ae6b3.2922893a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20011115180934.01731ee0@mail.ilstu.edu>

At 04:46 AM 11/15/01 -0700, Thomas Reed wrote:
>Dear Paul and Harmon:
>
>It sounds as if you have slightly decoupled the gasification unit from the
>burner, so in principle you can have a very larger gasifier with a small
>diameter burner. I like the 4 inch diameter size best.

Question: you like the 4 inch best for top (burner) or bottom
(gasifier)? What sizes of tops and bottoms have you actually used? And
what are the theoretical (and practical) implications of sizes for each top
and bottom?

>Are we using the internal "wick" (bad name)? The Coanda effect probably
>helps explain combustion of the air along the inner surfaces.

I am not using the central "wick" (that I would call a "spreader"). But I
made an inverted cone (6 inch large at bottom and about 3 inch small
opening at the top. That brings the gasses and burner flames together nicely.

Paul
Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders

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From psanders at ilstu.edu Fri Nov 16 14:26:43 2001
From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:20 2004
Subject: Tinder for Stoves
In-Reply-To: <158bc19fc9.19fc9158bc@pmel.noaa.gov>
Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20011116131547.01712de0@mail.ilstu.edu>

Pros and cons of tinder types:

We are agreeing that some volatile liquid is with the solid tinder, the
gasification is an immediate start in just the way that we want it.

If the solid stuff is fluffy or chunky is the question here.

Both can work, but what are the pros and cons:

fluffy can be spread over a larger surface (or a greater % of the surface),
but has some risk of falling through to lower levels of the fuel load.

chunky might mean too localized initial fire, and you have to wait for
lateral spreading, which is not a strong characteristic of fire.

Harmon said he used about "a dozen or so" of the pellets (I think he had a
6 inch diameter of gasifier.) Either those should have very little
alcohol added, or that could have been excessive "prepared tinder."

I estimate that for my 4 inch diameter units, only one or two of the
pellets would need to be soaked with the liquid to the point of falling
apart (to become fluffy). I will try that this weekend. (I was using
shreaded briquettes from pulp paper and sawdust.)

Do not forget the idea of using a "shaker bottle" like for parmesan cheese
to hold the fluffy type of prepared tinder.

Paul

At 11:27 PM 11/13/01 -0600, Harmon Seaver wrote:
> I tried soaking some wood pellets in denatured alcohol tonight just
>for a minute or two, and then dropping a dozen or so on the pellet fire
>load -- much, much better solution than lighting with a propane torch.
>I'll have to try some other things -- the pellets fall apart pretty
>quickly when wet with H2O, for sure, wood chips would be better.
>
>--
>Harmon Seaver, MLIS
>CyberShamanix
>Work 920-203-9633
>Home 920-233-5820
>hseaver@cybershamanix.com
>http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html
>
>
>
>-
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>
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>
>For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
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Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders

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From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Fri Nov 16 16:55:13 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:20 2004
Subject: Tinder for Stoves
In-Reply-To: <158bc19fc9.19fc9158bc@pmel.noaa.gov>
Message-ID: <3BF58B18.13E4501C@cybershamanix.com>

Well, the problem with using wood pellets is that they do
disintegrate, as I found last night. Although they still worked, I'm not
sure how long they would hold the alcohol. They were quite fluffy tho,
and could be spread further.

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

 

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From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Fri Nov 16 16:59:59 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:20 2004
Subject: Gasifier sizes
In-Reply-To: <8b.f0ae6b3.2922893a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3BF58C12.489291D1@cybershamanix.com>

"Paul S. Anderson" wrote:

>
> >Are we using the internal "wick" (bad name)? The Coanda effect probably
> >helps explain combustion of the air along the inner surfaces.
>
> I am not using the central "wick" (that I would call a "spreader"). But I
> made an inverted cone (6 inch large at bottom and about 3 inch small
> opening at the top. That brings the gasses and burner flames together nicely.

Hmm, I'd forgotten about the "wick". Actually, I wasn't sure from the
diagram what it actually was -- it looks like a small can in the burner section,
held in place by what?

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

 

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From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Fri Nov 16 17:17:02 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:20 2004
Subject: Part 2 of stoves experiments: equipment - 01-11-11
In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20011113221520.01a8b280@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <3BF5900F.DF6C1BE@cybershamanix.com>

I've tried two further modifications on my 6" coffee can stove.
First I closed off one of the two primary air vents (just triangular
holes about 1" on sides) on the bottom sides of the gasifier. The burn
with this (and this time I used 710 grams of wood pellets) went pretty
much the same as with both holes open, much too fast with flames coming
all the way up the 24" stove pipe and total burn of the charcoal.
Next I put a 1/2" copper pipe elbow into each of the two primary
air holes and sealed up the area around the pipe with refractory cement.
I lit the fuel (710 gr of wood pellets) and, as soon as it was burning
enough that secondary combustion could be seen, I placed an end cap on
one the pipes, closing it entirely. The fire continued to burn about the
same, so then I capped the other. Fairly quickly went out except for
glowing charcoal and heavy smoke. I light a match and held it to one of
the secondary air holes and the fire took off again.
This burn was not so furious as the earlier ones, but still had an
occasional flame reaching up near the top of the stovepipe. And the
charcoal still burned up, so I guess I need to be able to close down
primary air much further.

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

 

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From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Fri Nov 16 17:36:12 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:20 2004
Subject: Charcoal - To burn or produce?
In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20011106102925.01a6ddd0@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <3BF594B4.8E1DEEC9@cybershamanix.com>

Since I really have no need of saving charcoal, I'm thinking of
ways to use it. With most of my burns, certainly all the recent ones,
all my charcoal has eventually burned, and there has been no smoking.
However, the amount of heat that's reaching the top of the stove pipe is
rather anemic.
So I'm thinking that what I could do is build a stove (and this
will be essentially for camping for me) that has an easily adjusted
primary air, with a large range of opening. That way it can be closed
down quite far during the gasification phase, then opened wide for
burning the charcoal. At the same time, when the gasification is done, I
can lift off the secondary burner section and put the pot directly on
the bottom gasifier section.
I'd think this would work quite well for most foods, since you
have a good 20-30 minutes of intense heat (and, in fact, with the 6" can
I've had as long as 45 minutes) -- long enough to cook many things,
except perhaps beans. The second period of charcoal burn should provide
plenty of heat to slow simmer beans or whatever.
In addition to this some sort of "haybox" could be used -- for my
uses I'd probably make some sort of envelope to put the pot in out of
some flexible super insulating material like "space blankets", that
aluminized plastic stuff.

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

 

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From english at adan.kingston.net Fri Nov 16 17:43:29 2001
From: english at adan.kingston.net (*.English)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:20 2004
Subject: Part 2 of stoves experiments: equipment - 01-11-11
In-Reply-To: <3BF5900F.DF6C1BE@cybershamanix.com>
Message-ID: <200111162243.fAGMhOq14631@adan.kingston.net>

Harmon,

I was able to make the BigTop IDD Gasifier work on as little as a
1/2" diameter hole for primary air. That was for a cylinder filled
with pellets 18" in diameter.

Good luck,
Alex English

> Next I put a 1/2" copper pipe elbow into each of the two primary
> air holes and sealed up the area around the pipe with refractory cement.

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From psanders at ilstu.edu Fri Nov 16 18:51:06 2001
From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:20 2004
Subject: Tinder for Stoves
In-Reply-To: <158bc19fc9.19fc9158bc@pmel.noaa.gov>
Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20011116175108.017244c0@mail.ilstu.edu>

This raises the question about alcohol. Perhaps too volatile??? I would
expect so. And storage is probably an issue.

My use of "tiki-torch" fuel has been successful.

A little diesel fuel might do the trick???

And some natural vegetable oils from the tropics ???

We need a comparison of these "thing" (what will we call these "volatile
primers" that are added to solid tinder???)

Paul

At 03:55 PM 11/16/01 -0600, Harmon Seaver wrote:
> Well, the problem with using wood pellets is that they do
>disintegrate, as I found last night. Although they still worked, I'm not
>sure how long they would hold the alcohol. They were quite fluffy tho,
>and could be spread further.
>
>--
>Harmon Seaver
>CyberShamanix
>http://www.cybershamanix.com

Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders

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From psanders at ilstu.edu Fri Nov 16 18:52:43 2001
From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:20 2004
Subject: Gasifier sizes
In-Reply-To: <8b.f0ae6b3.2922893a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20011116175629.01728e40@mail.ilstu.edu>

Correct, a small can in the burner.

Suspended by 3 lateral screws that reach to the sides of the top of the burner.

Paul

At 03:59 PM 11/16/01 -0600, Harmon Seaver wrote:
>"Paul S. Anderson" wrote:
>
> >
> > >Are we using the internal "wick" (bad name)? The Coanda effect probably
> > >helps explain combustion of the air along the inner surfaces.
> >
> > I am not using the central "wick" (that I would call a "spreader"). But I
> > made an inverted cone (6 inch large at bottom and about 3 inch small
> > opening at the top. That brings the gasses and burner flames together
> nicely.
>
> Hmm, I'd forgotten about the "wick". Actually, I wasn't sure from the
>diagram what it actually was -- it looks like a small can in the burner
>section,
>held in place by what?
>
>--
>Harmon Seaver
>CyberShamanix
>http://www.cybershamanix.com

Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders

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From psanders at ilstu.edu Fri Nov 16 19:00:56 2001
From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:20 2004
Subject: Part 2 of stoves experiments: equipment - 01-11-11
In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20011113221520.01a8b280@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20011116175912.01728350@mail.ilstu.edu>

Exactly, keep control of the primary air. VERY little is needed. I am
sure the amount is partly related to the diameter of the fuel
load/gasifier. Also probably influenced by the fuel type and some other
factors.

I held nice gasification in a 4 inch diameter unit with only 2 of 3 / 16
ths diameter holes!! I put a match up to the holes and could see the
flame being pulled into the hole by the draft.

WHEN we get to the application and dissemination stage of this stove
project, we must remember that all of us also tended to give too much air
until we could actually see the separate gasification in the bottom and the
secondary combustion in the upper area. To most people, a fire is a fire
is a fire. If they have seen the separation of primary and secondary
combustion, most were probably unaware of what they were seeing.

Paul

At 04:16 PM 11/16/01 -0600, Harmon Seaver wrote:
> I've tried two further modifications on my 6" coffee can stove.
>First I closed off one of the two primary air vents (just triangular
>holes about 1" on sides) on the bottom sides of the gasifier. The burn
>with this (and this time I used 710 grams of wood pellets) went pretty
>much the same as with both holes open, much too fast with flames coming
>all the way up the 24" stove pipe and total burn of the charcoal.
> Next I put a 1/2" copper pipe elbow into each of the two primary
>air holes and sealed up the area around the pipe with refractory cement.
>I lit the fuel (710 gr of wood pellets) and, as soon as it was burning
>enough that secondary combustion could be seen, I placed an end cap on
>one the pipes, closing it entirely. The fire continued to burn about the
>same, so then I capped the other. Fairly quickly went out except for
>glowing charcoal and heavy smoke. I light a match and held it to one of
>the secondary air holes and the fire took off again.
> This burn was not so furious as the earlier ones, but still had an
>occasional flame reaching up near the top of the stovepipe. And the
>charcoal still burned up, so I guess I need to be able to close down
>primary air much further.
>
>--
>Harmon Seaver
>CyberShamanix
>http://www.cybershamanix.com

Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders

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From adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in Fri Nov 16 22:00:50 2001
From: adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in (A.D. Karve)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:20 2004
Subject: Charcoal - To burn or produce?
In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20011106102925.01a6ddd0@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <002b01c16f17$0ddb6ea0$aa9ec7cb@vsnl.net.in>

30% fuel use efficiency appears to be the upper limit in the case of an
improved wood burning domestic stove, which is also cheap enough to be
affordable (i.e. without blowers, insulators, regulable air intake holes, or
sleeves for the pots). If you are able to gasify the biomass and use the
gas as fuel, your efficiency goes up dramatically to almost 55%. Assuming
that only about 70% of the woody biomass is gasified, one is still using
about 38 to 39% of the total calories contained in the original woody
biomass. In addition, you are left with charcoal, that can be burnt with an
efficiency of 40% in a charcoal burning stove. That calculates to 12% of the
calories in the original woody biomass. So you end up with using about 50%
of the calories. That is wonderful.
A.D.Karve

----- Original Message -----
From: Harmon Seaver <hseaver@cybershamanix.com>
To: Paul S. Anderson <psanders@ilstu.edu>
Cc: Thomas Reed <tombreed@home.com>; <stoves@crest.org>; Apolinário J
Malawene <ajmalawene01@hotmail.com>; Bob and Karla Weldon
<bobkarlaweldon@cs.com>; Ed Francis <cfranc@ilstu.edu>; Tsamba--Alberto
Julio <ajtsamba@zebra.uem.mz>
Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2001 4:06 AM
Subject: Re: Charcoal - To burn or produce?

> Since I really have no need of saving charcoal, I'm thinking of
> ways to use it. With most of my burns, certainly all the recent ones,
> all my charcoal has eventually burned, and there has been no smoking.
> However, the amount of heat that's reaching the top of the stove pipe is
> rather anemic.
> So I'm thinking that what I could do is build a stove (and this
> will be essentially for camping for me) that has an easily adjusted
> primary air, with a large range of opening. That way it can be closed
> down quite far during the gasification phase, then opened wide for
> burning the charcoal. At the same time, when the gasification is done, I
> can lift off the secondary burner section and put the pot directly on
> the bottom gasifier section.
> I'd think this would work quite well for most foods, since you
> have a good 20-30 minutes of intense heat (and, in fact, with the 6" can
> I've had as long as 45 minutes) -- long enough to cook many things,
> except perhaps beans. The second period of charcoal burn should provide
> plenty of heat to slow simmer beans or whatever.
> In addition to this some sort of "haybox" could be used -- for my
> uses I'd probably make some sort of envelope to put the pot in out of
> some flexible super insulating material like "space blankets", that
> aluminized plastic stuff.
>
> --
> Harmon Seaver
> CyberShamanix
> http://www.cybershamanix.com
>
>
>
> -
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>

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From adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in Sat Nov 17 09:49:38 2001
From: adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in (A.D. Karve)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:20 2004
Subject: Higher efficiency through use of wood gas.
In-Reply-To: <004501c16ede$574f62a0$5215210c@default>
Message-ID: <001301c16f7a$01e0fda0$1150c5cb@vsnl.net.in>

A typical wood burning stove is so designed that the pot is placed at a
point where the flame is hottest. When we burn 1 kg wood in such a stove,
about 700 g gets volatilised and about 300g remains on the grate as
charcoal. The charcoal burns on the grate, about 15 cm below the pot, so
that its heat is wasted. The 30% efficiency of a wood burning stove is thus
the result mainly of utilising the gaseous part of the biomass. In the
cheaper wood burning stoves, the burning biomass receives only primary air.
Therefore the flame is yellow and the stove also produces soot and smoke.
In the charcoaling stoves, provision has been made for supply of secondary
air, so that the gas burns without formation of soot and smoke (I assumed
this through reading the accounts posted by Paul Anderson). It would
therefore be logical to assume that all the calories contained in the
gaseous phase are released and that none are lost through soot and smoke. I
therefore assumed, that when the gas is optimally burnt, one should be able
to raise the efficiency, calculated on the basis of the original weight of
biomass, from 30 % to 35%. Thus out of the 4000 Kcal that 1 kg of wood
would be having, we would be using 1400 kcal through rational burning of the
gas. When charcoal is burnt separately in a stove designed to burn charcoal
optimally, the pot is kept almost touching the charcoal, so that there is a
more or less direct transfer of heat from the coals to the pots. Therefore
I assumed an efficiency of 40% on the basis of the calories in the charcoal.
Although the weight of the charcoal would be only about 30% of the original
biomass, its calorific value would be at least 25% higher than the original
woody biomass. Thus the 300 g charcoal would contain about 1500 kcal per kg.
If 40% of these are utilised, one gets a figure of 600 calories utilised. I
therefore assume that by burning the gas and charcoal separately, each in a
stove designed to burn these components optimally, 1400 + 600= 2000 kcal
would thus be used out of a total of 4000 kcal.
A.D.Karve

----- Original Message -----
From: Dean Still <dstill@epud.net>
To: A.D. Karve <adkarve@pn2.vsnl.net.in>
Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2001 2:06 AM
Subject: Re: Charcoal - To burn or produce?

> Dear A.D. Karve,
>
> What accounts for the 25% improvement when using the gasified method
without
> a fan?
>
> Best,
> Dean Still
>
>

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From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Sat Nov 17 10:43:03 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:20 2004
Subject: Higher efficiency through use of wood gas.
In-Reply-To: <004501c16ede$574f62a0$5215210c@default>
Message-ID: <3BF6855D.E1BEFC4F@cybershamanix.com>

Rather than having two separate stoves, at least with the simple
Reed/Larson IDD design, it would seem to be a fairly easy thing to design the
stove in such a way that the gas burner part could just be lifted off and the
pot put on the gasifier bottom part, thereby being right on top of the burning
charcoal. The primary air draft would have to be opened as well, I'd think.
Since the IDD stove already is a two piece design, I'd think it would
take little, if any, design change to utilize the charcoal on the spot, mostly
just in terms of a heavier grate to withstand the charcoal burning. The riser
sleeve protects the rest.
So far the stainless drain "grate" I'm using hasn't shown any sort of
distortion from burning the charcoal, but that's not many burns.

"A.D. Karve" wrote:

(snip)

> When charcoal is burnt separately in a stove designed to burn charcoal
> optimally, the pot is kept almost touching the charcoal, so that there is a
> more or less direct transfer of heat from the coals to the pots. Therefore
> I assumed an efficiency of 40% on the basis of the calories in the charcoal.

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

 

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From andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com Sat Nov 17 17:19:58 2001
From: andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com (AJH)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:20 2004
Subject: Efficiency vs health impacts (followup to Dean Still)
In-Reply-To: <002301c16d11$01a8dd00$5115210c@default>
Message-ID: <nrndvt4p5andgfq4glq3egpf4pat5gjl72@4ax.com>

On Wed, 14 Nov 2001 15:06:18 -0700, "Ron Larson"
<ronallarson@qwest.net> wrote:

> I take no exception to this nor any of the remainder of Dean's message -
>heat transfer to the pot is critical and we all hope that we can find some
>good ways to improve that.
>
> The new thread I want to get started is the huge difference between 100%
>combustion efficiency and even 95% (much less 80%) when we talk about the
>stove's impact on human health. (and global climate change)
>
I had always taken Dean's point on board and realise getting the heat
into the food is the problem (best solved by microwaves?).

So the reasons for good combustion are that the cook, and adjacent
family, does not suffer health hazards from the process nor do others
in the larger neighborhoods.

Going back to Tami's original post on coal burning the initial
combustion efficiency of the volatiles appears close to zero as the
implication is they are simply vented until the coals are hot enough
to cook on.

As a dilettante I have no knowledge of the social anthropology
necessary to address the cooking pot selection, I can play with simple
stoves which may point to cleaner combustion methods.

I accidentally deleted Dean's last post in the "Higher efficiency
through use of wood gas" thread, unread, and wonder if one of the
moderators would forward me a copy?
AJH

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From andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com Sat Nov 17 17:20:44 2001
From: andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com (AJH)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:20 2004
Subject: Charcoal - To burn or produce?
In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20011106102925.01a6ddd0@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <n1hdvtojgebei75trb3lhpq5rgdp90r02l@4ax.com>

On Sat, 17 Nov 2001 08:50:50 +0530, "A.D. Karve"
<adkarve@pn2.vsnl.net.in> wrote:

> 30% fuel use efficiency appears to be the upper limit in the case of an
>improved wood burning domestic stove, which is also cheap enough to be
>affordable (i.e. without blowers, insulators, regulable air intake holes, or
>sleeves for the pots).

Are you able to give an idea in US dollars what you think might be
affordable?
AJH

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From adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in Sat Nov 17 21:44:27 2001
From: adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in (A.D. Karve)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:20 2004
Subject: Charcoal - To burn or produce?
In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20011106102925.01a6ddd0@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <000901c16fdd$ede5cb00$489ec7cb@vsnl.net.in>

Translating Indian Rupees into US$ is only meaningful if somebody in the US
wants to spend the money to install the stoves. 1US$ is roughly equivalent
to Rs.50. A wood burning stove with about 25% efficiency and with a chimney
to take the flue gases out of the kitchen, costs about Rs. 200. A labourer
in the agricultural sector earns about Rs. 40 per day, whenever he has work.
Generally, he finds employment only for a few days in a year. So they are
really poor. However, Rs. 200 is not a very large amount for a farmer, but
the people's priorities are different in India. Whenever we hold people's
meetings in villages and inquire about possession of items like a t.v. set
(Rs. 10,000 and above), a motorcycle(Rs.20,000 and above), transistor
radio(Rs. 500 and above), gold ornaments(Rs. 400 per gram), etc. there are
at least 10 to 20 % families owning at least one of these items, but when
asked about households having a latrine, one often finds that not single
household has one. People are used to defecate in the countryside and they
don't want to change this habit. It is the same story with an improved
stove. The male chauvinist pigs in the villages just do not think of buying
one to make the life easy for their womenfolk. Even if it is installed free
of cost, they complain about the fact that the roof of the hut had to be
perforated for letting the chimney out! The farmers who are rich enough to
by a t.v. set or a motorcycle generally have a stove that runs on L.P.G.
(having a motorcycle, they can fetch the cylinders from the nearest
township).
Actually, the magnitude of providing domestic fuel to rural population is of
the same order as that of providing them with food. It is my premise, that
if a village is self sufficient in food , it is also automatically self
sufficient in cooking fuel. A vegetarian family consumes about 6 to 8 kg
grain (cereals, legumes and oilseeds) every day and it als consumes the same
amount of fuel per day. Most grain producing crop species have a harvest
index ranging from 30 to 40%. That means that a grain crop also produces1.5
times as much stover as the grain. If this agrowaste can be converted into
fuel, you have all the fuel that you need for cooking your meals.
Sorry for giving such a lengthy reply to a short and simple question.
A.D.Karve

----- Original Message -----
From: AJH <andrew.heggie@dtn.ntl.com>
To: <stoves@crest.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2001 3:47 AM
Subject: Re: Charcoal - To burn or produce?

On Sat, 17 Nov 2001 08:50:50 +0530, "A.D. Karve"
<adkarve@pn2.vsnl.net.in> wrote:

> 30% fuel use efficiency appears to be the upper limit in the case of an
>improved wood burning domestic stove, which is also cheap enough to be
>affordable (i.e. without blowers, insulators, regulable air intake holes,
or
>sleeves for the pots).

Are you able to give an idea in US dollars what you think might be
affordable?
AJH

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From adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in Sat Nov 17 21:45:03 2001
From: adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in (A.D. Karve)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:20 2004
Subject: Higher efficiency through use of wood gas.
In-Reply-To: <004501c16ede$574f62a0$5215210c@default>
Message-ID: <000a01c16fdd$ef0321e0$489ec7cb@vsnl.net.in>

In India, wood used in wood burning stoves consists of wood pieces about 30
to 40 cm long and 4 to 6 cm broad. They are fed horizontally into the stove,
and the end inserted into the stove is ignited. Every few minutes, they are
pushed forward manually, so that the flame is always below the pot. In such
a system there is no mechanism to retreive the coal. One would have to
change over to using wood chips, and to a charcoal making stove for getting
the charcoal as a separate fuel species.
A.D.Karve

----- Original Message -----
From: Harmon Seaver <hseaver@cybershamanix.com>
To: A.D. Karve <adkarve@pn2.vsnl.net.in>
Cc: Dean Still <dstill@epud.net>; <stoves@crest.org>
Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2001 9:12 PM
Subject: Re: Higher efficiency through use of wood gas.

> Rather than having two separate stoves, at least with the simple
> Reed/Larson IDD design, it would seem to be a fairly easy thing to design
the
> stove in such a way that the gas burner part could just be lifted off and
the
> pot put on the gasifier bottom part, thereby being right on top of the
burning
> charcoal. The primary air draft would have to be opened as well, I'd
think.
> Since the IDD stove already is a two piece design, I'd think it
would
> take little, if any, design change to utilize the charcoal on the spot,
mostly
> just in terms of a heavier grate to withstand the charcoal burning. The
riser
> sleeve protects the rest.
> So far the stainless drain "grate" I'm using hasn't shown any sort
of
> distortion from burning the charcoal, but that's not many burns.
>
> "A.D. Karve" wrote:
>
> (snip)
>
> > When charcoal is burnt separately in a stove designed to burn charcoal
> > optimally, the pot is kept almost touching the charcoal, so that there
is a
> > more or less direct transfer of heat from the coals to the pots.
Therefore
> > I assumed an efficiency of 40% on the basis of the calories in the
charcoal.
>
> --
> Harmon Seaver
> CyberShamanix
> http://www.cybershamanix.com
>
>
>
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From dstill at epud.net Sun Nov 18 02:51:42 2001
From: dstill at epud.net (Dean Still)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:20 2004
Subject: Higher efficiency thread
Message-ID: <000e01c1704b$b346bc20$2115210c@default>

Dear A.D. Karve,

Thanks so much for detailing your analysis. It is always a pleasure to read
your posts.

You state, "When we burn 1 kg wood in such a stove,
>about 700 g gets volatilised and about 300g remains on the grate as
>charcoal."

We've just finished a series of 12 experiments comparing the effect of mass
in the combustion chamber on fuel efficiency, which we'll summarize here
soon. In each test we used 680 grams of wood and in the 12 instances found
between 20 and 30 grams of coals left after the burn.

Burning wood does not have to result in the production of charcoal. Instead
wood can be burned up almost completely. In my experience, charcoal is
formed if wood is pushed too quickly into the combustion chamber, depriving
the burn of enough air. Or maybe the wood is green?

I agree that, "The charcoal burns on the grate, about 15 cm below the pot,
so
>that its heat is wasted. The 30% efficiency of a wood burning stove is
thus
>the result mainly of utilizing the gaseous part of the biomass." Dr Mark
Bryden and his students are working on determining how big a part radiation
plays in heating the pot over a fire but it makes sense to me as well that
in large part the hot flue gases touching the pot are doing most of the
work.

You write, "In the
>cheaper wood burning stoves, the burning biomass receives only primary air.
>Therefore the flame is yellow and the stove also produces soot and smoke."
But in my experience it is quite possible to get enough primary air into the
combustion chamber so that while the flame is yellow there is almost no
smoke. It is not necessary to depend on secondary combustion if we achieve
almost complete combustion initially. A short insulated chimney (12" high )
above the fire develops enough draft to encourage almost complete initial
combustion leaving only approximately 2 to 4% charcoal. Low mass stoves with
14" high, 4" in diameter insulated chimneys above the insulated combustion
chamber can produce no coals while burning. Almost nothing drops to the
floor of the combustion chamber and the ash is sucked up the chimney! The
stoves we are now helping to promote in Central America use locally made
insulative ceramic material around the combustion chamber which is higher
mass resulting in some small deposit of charcoal, the result of incomplete
combustion.

Continuing on,
"I therefore assumed, that when the gas is optimally burnt, one should be
able
>to raise the efficiency, calculated on the basis of the original weight of
>biomass, from 30 % to 35%." Insulated combustion chambers with plenty of
fast moving primary air swishing amongst the fuel which is metered into the
fire can achieve almost complete combustion. Let's assign 95% combustion
efficiency as a rough estimate. Almost all of the wood is changed directly
into heat. From that point on we start loosing percentages : into the stove
body, hot air flying past the pot, etc. My guess would be that as we both
routinely find stoves being 30 to 40% fuel efficient that something very
close to these numbers is the actual heat transfer efficiency to the pot. A
stove that produces a lot of charcoal, is high mass, not insulated, doesn't
optimize heat transfer will suffer greater losses of efficiency, as you
point out.

Making inexpensive insulated combustion chambers that get very hot has only
become practical in the last year as durable refractory materials were found
and invented. Could I perhaps send you a sample combustion chamber to test?

Thank you again for this discussion.

Best,

Dean Still

 

 

 

 

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From kchishol at fox.nstn.ca Sun Nov 18 07:24:33 2001
From: kchishol at fox.nstn.ca (Kevin Chisholm)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:20 2004
Subject: Charcoal - To burn or produce?
In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20011106102925.01a6ddd0@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <000201c1702b$8262c420$0619059a@kevin>

Dear Dr. Karve
----- Original Message -----
From: "A.D. Karve" <adkarve@pn2.vsnl.net.in>
To: "AJH" <andrew.heggie@dtn.ntl.com>
Cc: <stoves@crest.org>
Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2001 10:47 PM
Subject: Re: Charcoal - To burn or produce?

...del...

> Sorry for giving such a lengthy reply to a short and simple question.
> A.D.Karve

I think we all learned a great deal from Andrew's so-called simple question,
and your very insightful and thoughtful reply.

Reality rules.

Kindest regards,

Kevin Chisholm
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: AJH <andrew.heggie@dtn.ntl.com>
> To: <stoves@crest.org>
> Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2001 3:47 AM
> Subject: Re: Charcoal - To burn or produce?
>
>
> On Sat, 17 Nov 2001 08:50:50 +0530, "A.D. Karve"
> <adkarve@pn2.vsnl.net.in> wrote:
>
> > 30% fuel use efficiency appears to be the upper limit in the case of an
> >improved wood burning domestic stove, which is also cheap enough to be
> >affordable (i.e. without blowers, insulators, regulable air intake holes,
> or
> >sleeves for the pots).
>
> Are you able to give an idea in US dollars what you think might be
> affordable?
> AJH
>
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From andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com Sun Nov 18 08:59:32 2001
From: andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com (AJH)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:20 2004
Subject: Charcoal - To burn or produce?
In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20011106102925.01a6ddd0@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <vmcfvtcfloo750dcuc7k93qi0bil3pbh5q@4ax.com>

On Sun, 18 Nov 2001 08:17:32 +0530, "A.D. Karve"
<adkarve@pn2.vsnl.net.in> wrote:

<snip interesting insight into finance and decision making in rural
India>

I also admit to making financial decisions based on desire rather than
need which almost certainly my immediate family have not benefited
from.

Do you consider it reasonable to infer that, using commonly available
tools and second use materials that a stove which could be constructed
in total with <4 man days of labour input and cheap materials may be
attractive to this market?

>Actually, the magnitude of providing domestic fuel to rural population is of
>the same order as that of providing them with food. It is my premise, that
>if a village is self sufficient in food , it is also automatically self
>sufficient in cooking fuel. A vegetarian family consumes about 6 to 8 kg
>grain (cereals, legumes and oilseeds) every day and it als consumes the same
>amount of fuel per day. Most grain producing crop species have a harvest
>index ranging from 30 to 40%. That means that a grain crop also produces1.5
>times as much stover as the grain. If this agrowaste can be converted into
>fuel, you have all the fuel that you need for cooking your meals.

This is very much what I was trying to get at in an earlier post. Dean
has fairly squarely put the target as improving efficiency of heat
transfer into the food as the point to concentrate on. Ronal has
pointed out the environmental benefits of clean burning and the idea
of utilising agri wastes here has so far been limited to utilising
char from cane leaves.

Once we can cheaply recover and make a fuel from agri wastes in
discrete chunks then we have a fuel that is suitable for metering in
with the air by whatever means of combustion we choose. In the
instance of the agri waste being produced in the same place as the
food is cooked the density is of small concern other than a slight
increase in mass density in the fuel feed.

>Sorry for giving such a lengthy reply to a short and simple question.

I appreciated it.
AJH

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From psanders at ilstu.edu Sun Nov 18 14:51:32 2001
From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:21 2004
Subject: The gasifying briquette??
Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20011118135551.0172e980@mail.ilstu.edu>

Stovers, this new thread (subject) relates to how to get the gasifying
impact out of a briquette. Please re-read Richard's comment.

At 07:24 AM 11/14/01 -0800, richard stanley wrote:

>Paul, perhpas we should be bringing the mountain to mohamed; Design the
>briquette as its own self contained gassifier... Hmmmm
>It would be easy enough to mold a second larger briquette tube shape over
>the existing briquette complete with secondary air feed holes...
>That way you would be selling the effect in one disposable briquette which
>could be used in any three stone fire setting. This gets around the issue
>of trying to sell a special stove at an affordable price.Given the
>improved efficiency through gassification, it would induce the use of
>biomass in preference to charcoal and wood
>Richard

I have my feet in both camps, one for briquettes with holes and one for
gasifier stoves.

Richard, I need more info on your idea, especially because I feel that some
container or chamber is needed to control the gasifiying process. and
second, I do not clearly see the briquette as burning from the top to the
bottom (instead of the beautiful flame coming up the hole in the briquette
from the bottom.)

In my simple way of understanding this fire stuff, gasification is always
taking place, but usually it is so close to the point of the secondary
combustion that we hardly notice the gasification stage. Do you, Richard,
see the briquette as having a distinctly separate stage of gasification, as
in the top to bottom process in the Reed-Larson stove?

Paul

Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders

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From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Mon Nov 19 19:24:20 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:21 2004
Subject: Efficiency vs health impacts
In-Reply-To: <002301c16d11$01a8dd00$5115210c@default>
Message-ID: <3BF9A28D.B8DD9E0F@cybershamanix.com>

I had thought I was getting very clean burns -- no smoke at all
except for a tiny amount when first starting. So last night I decided to
try a burn inside the shop/greenhouse. Although I couldn't see any
smoke, and the burn seemed quite good ( I'd put a cap with a 1/4" hole
drilled in it over the end of the 1/2" primary air pipe) with no high
shooting flames, after about 20 minutes I finally had to take the stove
outside -- my eyes were burning and I could feel it affecting my
breathing.
I think I've mentioned before that I've never gotten a nice blue
flame like I've read about, just orange and red shooting like gas jets
inward from the secondary air holes -- so perhaps the gasification is
not completing? Or maybe I need more secondary air?

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

 

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From english at adan.kingston.net Tue Nov 20 07:15:26 2001
From: english at adan.kingston.net (*.English)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:21 2004
Subject: Efficiency vs health impacts
Message-ID: <200111201215.fAKCFLq05407@adan.kingston.net>

 

 

> I think I've mentioned before that I've never gotten a nice blue
> flame like I've read about, just orange and red shooting like gas jets
> inward from the secondary air holes -- so perhaps the gasification is
> not completing? Or maybe I need more secondary air?
>
Harmon,
There is a considerable range of secondary air supply that produces a flame with no
visible (to the naked eye in the absence of condensing steam) emissions. It is
possible to set up a burner in the "sweet spot" where emissions are minimized. This is
a much smaller range that is not necessarily the mix that produces a completely blue
flame. The blue flame is obtainable with better mixing, especially premixing, and more
excess air. Even with a blue flame there can be regions in the burner where some
unreacted products of gasification, or in this case pyrolysis, slip through unreacted.

For example, no visible emissions could be achieved with air supplies from 97% to
200% of the theoretical air necessary for combining with the volatile pyrolysis
products. The sweet spot might be in the 120 to 140% range.

I never did sort out what "no visible emissions" equates to as a percent of complete
combustion. It might be better than 98%. Depending the burner design, the sweet spot
could go higher than 99.9%. The one or two percent that you can't see
contains plenty of noxious products that you wouldn't want to share a
closed space with.

Alex English

 

 

Alex English
RR 2 Odessa, Ontario
Canada K0H 2H0
613-386-1927

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From ronallarson at qwest.net Tue Nov 20 09:40:00 2001
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:21 2004
Subject: Efficiency vs health impacts
In-Reply-To: <200111201215.fAKCFLq05407@adan.kingston.net>
Message-ID: <000f01c171d1$7f7d34a0$0ae26641@computer>

All:
1. I too have been saying that I couldn't see or smell anything - and
one small test with good equipment couldn't detect much. I think Harmon's
report emphasizes the need for good measurements. My tests never included
the combustion of charcoal (as I have always wanted that charcoal)..
2. I hope others can report on working in a closed room. Tom Reed has
reported some such tests - but I think this was done without charcoal
combustion.
3. Needless to say, this result would presumably occur with every
stove. The important question now is the unburned fuel percentage.
4. I have sometimes smelled something (especially when pyrolyzing root
fuels) - and other times (outdoors) have felt my eyes smarting. I have no
idea whether such tests were in or out of the "sweet spot" Alex describes.
My one test indicated
about 200% of the theoretical air.

Harmon:
I wonder if your report included a period of combustion of charcoal at
the end of the pyrolysis phase? Are you able to control the primary air
now - or have you only reduced the primary air?

Alex:
1. I like the description you have given below; I don't recall seeing it
earlier. Did you make these measurements yourself? Part of the student
supervision? Was this done with natural draft (perhaps being easier to vary
and measure excess air with blowers?)?

2. Was your testing done only through the pyrolysis phase, or was there
also some combustion of produced-charcoal at the end?

3. What means did you employ to vary the secondary air?

4. Have you seen these or similar figures in print anywhere?

Thanks Ron

 

----- Original Message -----
From: *.English <english@adan.kingston.net>
To: <stoves@crest.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 5:16 AM
Subject: Re: Efficiency vs health impacts

>
>
>
> > I think I've mentioned before that I've never gotten a nice blue
> > flame like I've read about, just orange and red shooting like gas jets
> > inward from the secondary air holes -- so perhaps the gasification is
> > not completing? Or maybe I need more secondary air?
> >
> Harmon,
> There is a considerable range of secondary air supply that produces a
flame with no
> visible (to the naked eye in the absence of condensing steam) emissions.
It is
> possible to set up a burner in the "sweet spot" where emissions are
minimized. This is
> a much smaller range that is not necessarily the mix that produces a
completely blue
> flame. The blue flame is obtainable with better mixing, especially
premixing, and more
> excess air. Even with a blue flame there can be regions in the burner
where some
> unreacted products of gasification, or in this case pyrolysis, slip
through unreacted.
>
> For example, no visible emissions could be achieved with air supplies from
97% to
> 200% of the theoretical air necessary for combining with the volatile
pyrolysis
> products. The sweet spot might be in the 120 to 140% range.
>
> I never did sort out what "no visible emissions" equates to as a percent
of complete
> combustion. It might be better than 98%. Depending the burner design, the
sweet spot
> could go higher than 99.9%. The one or two percent that you can't see
> contains plenty of noxious products that you wouldn't want to share a
> closed space with.
>
> Alex English
>
>
>
>
>
> Alex English
> RR 2 Odessa, Ontario
> Canada K0H 2H0
> 613-386-1927
>
>
> -
> Stoves List Archives and Website:
> http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
> http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
>
> Stoves List Moderators:
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>
>

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From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Tue Nov 20 10:41:50 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:21 2004
Subject: Efficiency vs health impacts
In-Reply-To: <200111201215.fAKCFLq05407@adan.kingston.net>
Message-ID: <3BFA799D.7C2F43EE@cybershamanix.com>

Ron Larson wrote:

(snip)

> Harmon:

> I wonder if your report included a period of combustion of charcoal at
> the end of the pyrolysis phase? Are you able to control the primary air
> now - or have you only reduced the primary air?

When I took the stove outside, it was still undergoing strong pyrolysis,
but it eventually did burn all the charcoal. I don't have real adjustable
primary air controls, just removable pipe caps with various sized holes.
However, I just found a piece of copper tubing at the hardware store which fits
quite snugly over a 1/2" copper tube, and will now make an adjustable primary
air control like Paul described.

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

 

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From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Tue Nov 20 10:50:42 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:21 2004
Subject: Efficiency vs health impacts
In-Reply-To: <200111201215.fAKCFLq05407@adan.kingston.net>
Message-ID: <3BFA7BAE.6C7C27C6@cybershamanix.com>

Alex;
Thanx for the very informative answer. I too am very interested in
Ron's question, how to adjust secondary air. Perhaps Paul's idea of
using wads of aluminum foil at three places around the circumference
would do for a temporary method. I was thinking about another sliding
tube at that point, but I'm not it would be near enough air. Maybe a
bigger tube.
Another question on secondary air -- would preheating help or hurt
the secondary burn?

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

 

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From elk at wananchi.com Wed Nov 21 06:09:23 2001
From: elk at wananchi.com (elk)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:21 2004
Subject: closed room
Message-ID: <00a301c1727d$3ed7e7e0$d940083e@default>

 

Stovers;

We've been playing around with different versions
of a coffee-husk charcoal briquette here at Chardust in Nairobi. The objective
is to offer a 'premium' briquette in 4 or 5 kg bags to be sold off the
shelf in retail outlets. Our VWB is currently sold only in bulk - and only in 25
and 50 kg sacks. Between 5 and 6 tons is sold per day. The high ash content
and prolonged burn of VWB make it different enough from regular charcoal to
leave a bad impression with many of the more conservative
customers.

Another issue with VWB- that prolonged burn seems
to result in lower combustion temperatures and higher CO levels. Evidence is
circumstantial- with two reports of complaints- one from a local hotel that
cooks in an unventilated kitchen- their cooks said they experienced headaches
when VWB was substituted for regular charcoal, the second an observation of one
of my staff members that he had headaches from using both regular charcoal and
ours in his house, but the headaches from VWB were worse.

During the course of our recently conducted tests
on the coffee charcoal, we compared smoke/fumes in an enclosed room and came up
with an interesting observation- 1.25 inch dia. cylindrical briquettes with a
3/8 inch hole down the centre produced more visible smoke than solid briquettes
of exactly the same composition.

My tentative conclusion from all this is that the
slower the burn, the lower the heat, the more incomplete the combustion, the
more CO and smoke. Smoke is from the uncarbonised combustible component of the
charcoal, which in the case of the coffee briquette is 2.5% industrial grade
corn starch. VWB does not smoke at all- it's binder is clay. The holey
briquettes are seen to smoke mainly from the hole. Air is restricted in the hole
and combustion is less complete? It would seem so.

We will run a test with holey briqs set standing
vertically later today- I'll report on that anon.

elk


--------------------------Elsen L.
Karstadelk@wananchi.com<A
href="http://www.chardust.com">www.chardust.comNairobi
Kenya


From english at adan.kingston.net Wed Nov 21 07:21:55 2001
From: english at adan.kingston.net (*.English)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:21 2004
Subject: Efficiency vs health impacts
In-Reply-To: <000f01c171d1$7f7d34a0$0ae26641@computer>
Message-ID: <200111211221.fALCLoq18882@adan.kingston.net>

Ron and Harmon,
Have a look at the following pages. Some of the answers are there.

http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/paperhtml/Punepaper2b.htm
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/emissions/emissions.htm

I will try and respond to your questions soon.
Alex

> All:
> 1. I too have been saying that I couldn't see or smell anything - and
> one small test with good equipment couldn't detect much. I think Harmon's
> report emphasizes the need for good measurements. My tests never included
> the combustion of charcoal (as I have always wanted that charcoal)..
> 2. I hope others can report on working in a closed room. Tom Reed has
> reported some such tests - but I think this was done without charcoal
> combustion.
> 3. Needless to say, this result would presumably occur with every
> stove. The important question now is the unburned fuel percentage.
> 4. I have sometimes smelled something (especially when pyrolyzing root
> fuels) - and other times (outdoors) have felt my eyes smarting. I have no
> idea whether such tests were in or out of the "sweet spot" Alex describes.
> My one test indicated
> about 200% of the theoretical air.
>
> Harmon:
> I wonder if your report included a period of combustion of charcoal at
> the end of the pyrolysis phase? Are you able to control the primary air
> now - or have you only reduced the primary air?
>
> Alex:
> 1. I like the description you have given below; I don't recall seeing it
> earlier. Did you make these measurements yourself? Part of the student
> supervision? Was this done with natural draft (perhaps being easier to vary
> and measure excess air with blowers?)?
>
> 2. Was your testing done only through the pyrolysis phase, or was there
> also some combustion of produced-charcoal at the end?
>
> 3. What means did you employ to vary the secondary air?
>
> 4. Have you seen these or similar figures in print anywhere?
>
>
> Thanks Ron
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: *.English <english@adan.kingston.net>
> To: <stoves@crest.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 5:16 AM
> Subject: Re: Efficiency vs health impacts
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> > > I think I've mentioned before that I've never gotten a nice blue
> > > flame like I've read about, just orange and red shooting like gas jets
> > > inward from the secondary air holes -- so perhaps the gasification is
> > > not completing? Or maybe I need more secondary air?
> > >
> > Harmon,
> > There is a considerable range of secondary air supply that produces a
> flame with no
> > visible (to the naked eye in the absence of condensing steam) emissions.
> It is
> > possible to set up a burner in the "sweet spot" where emissions are
> minimized. This is
> > a much smaller range that is not necessarily the mix that produces a
> completely blue
> > flame. The blue flame is obtainable with better mixing, especially
> premixing, and more
> > excess air. Even with a blue flame there can be regions in the burner
> where some
> > unreacted products of gasification, or in this case pyrolysis, slip
> through unreacted.
> >
> > For example, no visible emissions could be achieved with air supplies from
> 97% to
> > 200% of the theoretical air necessary for combining with the volatile
> pyrolysis
> > products. The sweet spot might be in the 120 to 140% range.
> >
> > I never did sort out what "no visible emissions" equates to as a percent
> of complete
> > combustion. It might be better than 98%. Depending the burner design, the
> sweet spot
> > could go higher than 99.9%. The one or two percent that you can't see
> > contains plenty of noxious products that you wouldn't want to share a
> > closed space with.
> >
> > Alex English
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Alex English
> > RR 2 Odessa, Ontario
> > Canada K0H 2H0
> > 613-386-1927
> >
> >
> > -
> > Stoves List Archives and Website:
> > http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
> > http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
> >
> > Stoves List Moderators:
> > Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
> > Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
> > Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
> >
> > List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
> > List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
> > List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
> > List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>
> >
> > Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html
> > -
> > Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
> > http://www.fsec.ucf.edu/bioam/
> > http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
> > http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml
> >
> > For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
> > http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm
> >
> >
>
>

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From psanders at ilstu.edu Wed Nov 21 11:47:07 2001
From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:21 2004
Subject: closed room
In-Reply-To: <00a301c1727d$3ed7e7e0$d940083e@default>
Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20011121103758.01a85190@mail.ilstu.edu>

ELK,

The issues about charcoal briquettes (100% except for the clay binder)
will have significant differences from the biomass briquettes.  Some
of the discussions about "coal" and coal-briquettes might be
more akin to your situation.

Apart from standing the holey-briquettes vetically (we await your
results), another issue is the size of the hole.  3/8 inch hole
might not be big enough, even when vertical.  But to have a larger
diameter hole would probably necessitate a larger diameter of the entire
briquette, which might not be viable either.

Please remember someone's earlier suggestion (months ago) about the
shapes and stacking of the briquettes to accomplish the same thing as the
holes.  You could place some of your regular briquettes in a way to
simulate holes of larger diameters.

Practical note:  When a "pile" of charcoal or briquettes
or wood is burning, as the mass is consumed, the force of gravity pulls
the pile down and accomplishes a form of compaction in relation to the
amount of burning.  In contrast, briquettes (or sticks or any thing
else) that are stacked VERTICALLY are mainly consumed laterally, and they
become "more hollow" (allowing increased air) instead of
compacting with gravity.  There could be as many pros as cons to
this situation.

Those of us with biomass briquettes have work to do to provide some data
for comparisons.

Paul

At 12:02 PM 11/21/01 +0300, elk wrote:
Stovers;

We've been playing around with different
versions of a coffee-husk charcoal briquette here at Chardust in Nairobi.
The objective is to offer a 'premium' briquette in 4 or 5 kg bags to be
sold off the shelf in retail outlets. Our VWB is currently sold only in
bulk - and only in 25 and 50 kg sacks. Between 5 and 6 tons is sold per
day. The high ash content and prolonged burn of VWB make it different
enough from regular charcoal to leave a bad impression with many of the
more conservative customers.

Another issue with VWB- that prolonged burn
seems to result in lower combustion temperatures and higher CO levels.
Evidence is circumstantial- with two reports of complaints- one from a
local hotel that cooks in an unventilated kitchen- their cooks said they
experienced headaches when VWB was substituted for regular charcoal, the
second an observation of one of my staff members that he had headaches
from using both regular charcoal and ours in his house, but the headaches
from VWB were worse.

During the course of our recently conducted
tests on the coffee charcoal, we compared smoke/fumes in an enclosed room
and came up with an interesting observation- 1.25 inch dia. cylindrical
briquettes with a 3/8 inch hole down the centre produced more visible
smoke than solid briquettes of exactly the same composition.

My tentative conclusion from all this is that
the slower the burn, the lower the heat, the more incomplete the
combustion, the more CO and smoke. Smoke is from the uncarbonised
combustible component of the charcoal, which in the case of the coffee
briquette is 2.5% industrial grade corn starch. VWB does not smoke at
all- it's binder is clay. The holey briquettes are seen to smoke mainly
from the hole. Air is restricted in the hole and combustion is less
complete? It would seem so.

We will run a test with holey briqs set
standing vertically later today- I'll report on that anon.

elk


--------------------------
Elsen L. Karstad
elk@wananchi.com
www.chardust.com
Nairobi Kenya

 
Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D.,  Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 -
7/00
Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State
University
Normal, IL  61790-4400   Voice: 
309-438-7360;  FAX:  309-438-5310
E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items:
www.ilstu.edu/~psanders

 

From tmiles at trmiles.com Wed Nov 21 14:19:46 2001
From: tmiles at trmiles.com (Tom Miles)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:21 2004
Subject: Bioenergy 2002 Sept 22-26, Idaho
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011121111946.021b6450@pop3.norton.antivirus>

The Call for Papers is out for Bioenergy 2002, to be held in Boise, Idaho,
September 22-26, 2002. Abstracts are due February 1, 2002.

For information see: www.bioenergy2002.org

 

Thomas R Miles tmiles@trmiles.com
T R Miles, TCI Tel 503-292-0107
1470 SW Woodward Way Fax 503-292-2919
Portland, OR 97225 USA

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From elk at wananchi.com Thu Nov 22 02:34:37 2001
From: elk at wananchi.com (elk)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:21 2004
Subject: charcoal briquettes- 'vertical holes'
Message-ID: <002601c17328$6714ff80$0f41083e@default>

 

Stovers;

The closed room burn with holey briquettes arranged
in a vertical position produced even more smoke than the randomly positioned
test- as subjectively assessed.

This goes against my theory that smoke would reduce
if air-flow through the holes were increased. What was observed was that the
burn was markedly shorter and more intense. This also goes counter to my theory
that there should be less smoke with a hotter burn. Comments Paul
Haite?

I'm going to make a single batch of 50 kg today and
extrude half with and half without holes. I'll collect the full range of
comparative info on this trail, starting with sun/air drying times for each type
through the usual Chardust-type boiling test with 750 g product- in the closed
room environment.

I should be able to post the data early next week-
if this rain lest up & we see some sun again here in Nairobi.

We've talked and talked about CO metering on this
list, but none of our technically-inclined members have come up with a workable
and affordable instrument design yet. What's up guys? With all the household CO
meters that are on the market in NorAm and Europe, we should be able to cobble
something together that's pretty cheap and robust... and battery powered. Once
it's designed and tested I bet we could get funding from Shell or similar to get
a couple dozen meters out in the field through this list. THEN we can
start solving a few mysteries and educating people in a proper hands-on
manner. We all agree that seeing is believing!

Tests can be conducted in the field by placing a
stove in air-tight a plywood cube and seeing how long it takes to trigger a
calibrated CO alarm....... An opacity-type smoke test could be made
too..... just a thought. Maybe it's been done already? Dan Kamman:
comments?

rgds;

elk


--------------------------Elsen L.
Karstadelk@wananchi.com<A
href="http://www.chardust.com">www.chardust.comNairobi
Kenya


From kchishol at fox.nstn.ca Thu Nov 22 07:06:18 2001
From: kchishol at fox.nstn.ca (Kevin Chisholm)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:21 2004
Subject: charcoal briquettes- 'vertical holes'
In-Reply-To: <002601c17328$6714ff80$0f41083e@default>
Message-ID: <002801c1734d$a95b6620$f219059a@kevin>

Dear Elk et al
----- Original Message -----
From: "elk" <elk@wananchi.com>
To: <stoves@crest.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2001 2:33 AM
Subject: charcoal briquettes- 'vertical holes'

Stovers;

>The closed room burn with holey briquettes arranged in a vertical position
produced even more smoke than the randomly positioned test- as subjectively
assessed.

Closed room burns are deadly. Guaranted to kill people. The best thing that
one should strive for in a closed room burn is a smoky, sulphurous acrid
exhaust that warns people that if they keep this up, they will die. The
worst thing is a nice clean burning stove that tricks people into not
realizing that adequate ventillation is mandatory and that the consequences
of no ventillation are death.

The consequences of poor ventillation and inadequate draft are ill health
and energy inefficiency.

Wouldn't it make sense to focus our efforts on designed stoves that
accommodate an adequate stack or flue pipe? I would state that the health
and energy efficiency benefits are enormous.

Kindest regards,

Kevin Chisholm, P.Eng
Energy Engineering Ltd.

 

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From woodcoal at mailbox.alkor.ru Thu Nov 22 08:31:39 2001
From: woodcoal at mailbox.alkor.ru (Yudkevich Yury)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:21 2004
Subject: charcoal briquettes- 'vertical holes'
In-Reply-To: <002601c17328$6714ff80$0f41083e@default>
Message-ID: <002401c1735a$12381240$6b3fefc3@a1g0h5>

 

Dear Elsen,
I know electronic devices for measurement CO. We used other way many years
ago. Gas passed through a solution of alkali and released from CO2. The second
stage the gas passes through a  
heated copper wire and H2O2 ( It is
possible to use salt Bertole or other oxidizer, I think). <FONT face=Arial
color=#000000 size=2>Or gas mix with the measured quantity of oxygen
and passed through heated copper
wire. CO turns in CO2. The third stage. The gas passes
through alkali. Lost volume of gas is easy be for measuring and for counting how
many was CO. It referred to as - method ORSA.
Yury
Yury Yudkevich, Dr. Assoc.
prof. Sanct-Petersburg State Forest Technical
Academy, Department of Forest Chemical Products and Biological
activity Substunces (Russia) fone 7+812+5520430  fax
7+812+55008155, Institutsky per. St.-Petersburg, 194021, Russia <<A
href="mailto:woodcoal@mailbox.alkor.ru">woodcoal@mailbox.alkor.ru>
----- Original Message -----
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black">From:
elk
To: <A title=stoves@crest.org
href="mailto:stoves@crest.org">stoves@crest.org
Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2001 9:33
AM
Subject: charcoal briquettes- 'vertical
holes'

Stovers;


<FONT face=Arial
size=2>.........................
We've talked and talked about CO metering on this
list, but none of our technically-inclined members have come up with a
workable and affordable instrument design yet. What's up guys?
......................<FONT face=Arial
size=2>
elk
--------------------------Elsen L.
Karstadelk@wananchi.com<A
href="http://www.chardust.com">www.chardust.comNairobi
Kenya


From tombreed at home.com Thu Nov 22 09:20:03 2001
From: tombreed at home.com (Thomas Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:21 2004
Subject: Forced draft and Rocket stoves Trip Report
In-Reply-To: <000e01c1704b$b346bc20$2115210c@default>
Message-ID: <00d401c17360$9fc49600$18e5b618@lakwod3.co.home.com>

Dear Aprovecho and All:

I visited Aprovecho last Friday and had a wonderful time talking stoves with
Dean and the staff for a day. I then visited the new Combined Heat and
Power 60/15 kW installation of CPC at the Hoopa Forestry site in Northern
California. This involved 16 hours round trip driving from Eugene, OR, with
Ken Goyer (stove insulation expert) and Larry Winiarski, (the inventor of
the Rocket Stove). You can bet there wasn't much we didn't touch on. Thanks
to Dean and all the Aprovecho staff!
~~~~~~~
I demonstrated our 3 kW(th) "camp stove". (It is modified from the poorly
designed commercial Sierra stove which puts all the air below the fuel,
resulting in a 12 inch flare unsuited for cooking.)

We use 2-3 V AA cells to provide about 0.4 W of forced draft from a small
fan which produces both primary and secondary air flow. The air flow is
~4.0 kg air/hr at a pressure of 0.03 inches of water column.

I demonstrated four modes of burning:

1) Initially the stove was filled to the secondary holes with pine chips
and burned about 12 minutes in the "inverted downdraft" (top down) mode,
producing volatiles which burned and charcoal (~15% from past experience).

2) The charcoal then burned for a short time in the too hot mode which can
destroy grates and containers with its 1400C flame. This produces a CO
flame which can be at the secondary air holes or at the primary holes,
depending on air supply.

3) At this point peanut shell pellets were added slowly and steadily to the
burning charcoal and burned in what I will call the "simultaneous pyrolysis
and gasification" mode, SPG (see below) at ~ 900C, producing a volatile plus
CO from the charcoal flame at the secondary air holes much like that
produced in mode 1. It burned in this mode ~20 minutes as we added pellets,
keeping about 3 layers on the bottom. The gases burned in the secondary air
jets at the top of the stove, much like mode 1. The temperature was below
1000 C (by observation of color) as long as fresh pellets were added.

4) We then "drowned" the fire in a surplus of peanut shell pellets and they
produced more gas by pyrolysis than the secondary air could accommodate and
a flame ~ 6 inches above the stove. This is the updraft mode and should be
avoided, since any flames higher than the pot would be quenched to soot and
various nasties.
~~~~~~~~~
The "simultaneous pyrolysis and gasification" mode, SPG, is one I
discovered in 1996 while measuring the "heat for pyrolysis" of birch dowels.
I observed that the yield of charcoal for dowels heated in a reducing flame
Meeker burner was 5-10%, rather than the 20-30 % that results from slow
pyrolysis.

When wood burns slowly (as in a match), FIRST the heat flows inward,
releasing the volatiles and making typically 20-30% charcoal. The surface
temperature never rises above 600 C (the match surface is not incandescent).

When wood is burned rapidly with forced draft, the outer surface becomes
incandescent at 800-1000C, a temperature high enough for the emerging
pyrolysis gases (CO2, H2O, volatiles), to react with the charcoal. In this
case most of the charcoal is burned as well as the volatiles during the
primary step.

If there is a stoichiometric amount of air (~3 kg air/kg wood) this process
makes producer gas similar to that in the downdraft gasifier.

If there is excess air, the gas can then burn as they emerge, releasing even
more heat to drive the process to higher temperatures. This could be called
"simultaneous pyrolysis and combustion", SPC. I believe this is the basis
of the operation of the new wood pellet stoves used for heating in which a
trickle of pellets are burned on the grate.

However, in both cases, the endothermic pyrolysis inside the particle
moderates the temperature well below that of burning charcoal.
~~~~~
I then saw very impressive demonstrations of many rocket stoves and the
Plancha stove. The advantage of these stoves is that they will burn sticks
and twigs which can be harvested most anywhere except in the city where
prepared fuels are available and free burning is often illegal.

In cities in developing countries the people are used to buying charcoal,
propane and kerosene for cooking, and also used to changing their ways from
those of their ancestors, so it is my belief that they will more easily
accept forced draft stoves burning densified wood and agricultural wastes.

Having speculated that the pellet heating stoves depend on reduced
combustion temperatures at their grates, due to SPC, I am going to try to
observe one more closely in operation this weekend. Does anyone have any
information on this?
~~~~~
Mucho Gracias to Dean and all the crew at Aprovecho for a very stimulating 4
days, and to Ken Goyer and Ellen for a cozy bed and loving home.

Thomas Reed
The Biomass Energy Foundation
1810 Smith Rd., Golden, CO 80401
303 278 0558;
tombreed@home.com; www.woodgas.com

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From tombreed at home.com Thu Nov 22 09:38:24 2001
From: tombreed at home.com (Thomas Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:21 2004
Subject: GAS-L: CO DANGERS
In-Reply-To: <002601c17328$6714ff80$0f41083e@default>
Message-ID: <001101c17363$401bba00$18e5b618@lakwod3.co.home.com>

Dear All:

When I first began using the inverted downdraft gasifier for cooking, by
friend Agua Das discouraged me by pointing out that CO in the house is a
killer.

However, in the IDD mode only the volatiles are burned, leaving the charcoal
for other uses. IF THE FLAME GOES OUT, the acrid smoke serves as a powerful
warning to get the stove outdoors and everyone will heed it.

After the IDD burn is completed, air continues to burn the remaining
charcoal. If the air fuel ratio is increase to 6/1, the charcoal is
efficiently gasified and can burn with a beautiful flame at the secondary
air holes. If not, it burns poorly in a wavering blue flame down at the
charcoal level which probably allows CO to escape unburned.

SO, DON'T ALLOW air to continue to pass over that charcoal at the end of the
burn unless there is a flame, preferably at the secondary air holes.

A word to the wise.... TOM REED

 

-----
From: "Kevin Chisholm" <kchishol@fox.nstn.ca>
To: <stoves@crest.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2001 5:03 AM
Subject: Re: charcoal briquettes- 'vertical holes'

> Dear Elk et al
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "elk" <elk@wananchi.com>
> To: <stoves@crest.org>
> Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2001 2:33 AM
> Subject: charcoal briquettes- 'vertical holes'
>
>
> Stovers;
>
> >The closed room burn with holey briquettes arranged in a vertical
position
> produced even more smoke than the randomly positioned test- as
subjectively
> assessed.
>
> Closed room burns are deadly. Guaranted to kill people. The best thing
that
> one should strive for in a closed room burn is a smoky, sulphurous acrid
> exhaust that warns people that if they keep this up, they will die. The
> worst thing is a nice clean burning stove that tricks people into not
> realizing that adequate ventillation is mandatory and that the
consequences
> of no ventillation are death.
>
> The consequences of poor ventillation and inadequate draft are ill health
> and energy inefficiency.
>
> Wouldn't it make sense to focus our efforts on designed stoves that
> accommodate an adequate stack or flue pipe? I would state that the health
> and energy efficiency benefits are enormous.
>
> Kindest regards,
>
> Kevin Chisholm, P.Eng
> Energy Engineering Ltd.
>
>
>
>
> -
> Stoves List Archives and Website:
> http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
> http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
>
> Stoves List Moderators:
> Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
> Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
> Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
>
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>
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> http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm
>
>

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From elk at wananchi.com Thu Nov 22 09:46:34 2001
From: elk at wananchi.com (elk)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:21 2004
Subject: charcoal briquettes- 'vertical holes'
In-Reply-To: <002601c17328$6714ff80$0f41083e@default>
Message-ID: <001301c17364$bdc1c0c0$4241083e@default>

 

Thanks Yuri;

It's interesting to hear how CO can be
measured in the laboratory, & the method you describe may be worth
using to calibrate household CO alarms or similar cheap & readily available
electronic sensors.

I wonder if these CO alarms could be used? Are they
pre-calibrated with any accuracy? Even a trip-switch type indicator like this
could be of value when time-to-alarm tests are conducted within a known-volume
container.

rgds;

elk


--------------------------Elsen L. Karstad<A
href="mailto:elk@wananchi.com">elk@wananchi.com<A
href="http://www.chardust.com">www.chardust.comNairobi Kenya


<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
----- Original Message -----
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black">From:
<A title=woodcoal@mailbox.alkor.ru
href="mailto:woodcoal@mailbox.alkor.ru">Yudkevich Yury
To: <A title=elk@wananchi.com
href="mailto:elk@wananchi.com">elk
Cc: <A title=stoves@crest.org
href="mailto:stoves@crest.org">stoves
Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2001 4:25
PM
Subject: Re: charcoal briquettes-
'vertical holes'


Dear Elsen,
I know electronic devices for measurement CO. We used other way many years
ago. Gas passed through a solution of alkali and released from CO2. The second
stage the gas passes through a  <FONT face=Arial color=#000000
size=2> heated copper wire and H2O2 ( It
is possible to use salt Bertole or other oxidizer, I think). <FONT face=Arial
color=#000000 size=2>Or gas mix with the measured quantity of oxygen
and passed through heated copper
wire. CO turns in CO2. The third stage. The gas passes
through alkali. Lost volume of gas is easy be for measuring and for counting
how many was CO. It referred to as - method ORSA.
Yury
Yury Yudkevich, Dr. Assoc.
prof. Sanct-Petersburg State Forest Technical
Academy, Department of Forest Chemical Products and
Biological activity Substunces (Russia) fone 7+812+5520430  fax
7+812+55008155, Institutsky per. St.-Petersburg, 194021, Russia <<A
href="mailto:woodcoal@mailbox.alkor.ru">woodcoal@mailbox.alkor.ru>
----- Original Message -----
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black">From:
elk
To: <A title=stoves@crest.org
href="mailto:stoves@crest.org">stoves@crest.org
Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2001 9:33
AM
Subject: charcoal briquettes- 'vertical
holes'

Stovers;


<FONT face=Arial
size=2>.........................
We've talked and talked about CO metering on
this list, but none of our technically-inclined members have come up with a
workable and affordable instrument design yet. What's up guys?
......................<FONT face=Arial
size=2>
elk
--------------------------Elsen L.
Karstadelk@wananchi.com<A
href="http://www.chardust.com">www.chardust.comNairobi
Kenya

<FONT face=Arial
size=2> 

From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Thu Nov 22 10:14:19 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:21 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Forced draft and Rocket stoves Trip Report
In-Reply-To: <000e01c1704b$b346bc20$2115210c@default>
Message-ID: <3BFD161E.A9E7FB74@cybershamanix.com>

Very interesting post, Tom, as always.

Thomas Reed wrote:

(snip)

> Having speculated that the pellet heating stoves depend on reduced
> combustion temperatures at their grates, due to SPC, I am going to try to
> observe one more closely in operation this weekend. Does anyone have any
> information on this?

I had my first close look at a pellet stove this last week, and both
amazed at how small the actual combustion area was (about 1229 cc except the
front was open to allow ash to be pushed out the front) and disappointed in how
poorly it was designed, not to mention expensive for what you are getting.
But that was just one model, undoubtedly they vary. At any rate, if the
combustion area was more enclosed, and taller, then primary and secondary air
piped to the right places, it would seem, from my limited perspective, to be a
lot more efficient. I couldn't tell from looking (or perusing the very limited
documentation) whether there was any secondary air at all.
It would seem that a IDD pellet stove could be built just as easily as the
design I saw.

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

 

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From andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com Thu Nov 22 18:26:06 2001
From: andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com (AJH)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:21 2004
Subject: Forced draft and Rocket stoves Trip Report
In-Reply-To: <000e01c1704b$b346bc20$2115210c@default>
Message-ID: <bvqqvto1hk54i1ogj0gdsltam49f6f5mmk@4ax.com>

On Thu, 22 Nov 2001 07:18:57 -0700, "Thomas Reed" <tombreed@home.com>
wrote:

>
>We use 2-3 V AA cells to provide about 0.4 W of forced draft from a small

This must be one of the most expensive forms of energy not to mention
the disposal problem. I would guess that your 0.4 W would only convert
about 50% to air movement.

>
>1) Initially the stove was filled to the secondary holes with pine chips
>and burned about 12 minutes in the "inverted downdraft" (top down) mode,
>producing volatiles which burned and charcoal (~15% from past experience).

Yes this is a good way of lighting any fire to give a smoke free
start, it ensures the secondary flame is supplied with high cv gases
right from the start before the whole mass has heated up. It also
forces you to use dry kindling as otherwise it will not start. Once
the fire bed is deep its amazing what you can burn. In playing with
the coal burner and lacking enough coal to fill it up I packed it with
recently fallen leaves. I was amazed to watch the coal bed descend on
the leaves and maintain a clean secondary flame. Smoky bonfires of
leaves are a feature of a british autumn (fall).
>
>2) The charcoal then burned for a short time in the too hot mode which can
>destroy grates and containers with its 1400C flame. This produces a CO
>flame which can be at the secondary air holes or at the primary holes,
>depending on air supply.

up draught charcoal gasification mode

>
>3) At this point peanut shell pellets were added slowly and steadily to the
>burning charcoal and burned in what I will call the "simultaneous pyrolysis
>and gasification" mode, SPG (see below) at ~ 900C, producing a volatile plus
>CO from the charcoal flame at the secondary air holes much like that
>produced in mode 1. It burned in this mode ~20 minutes as we added pellets,
>keeping about 3 layers on the bottom. The gases burned in the secondary air
>jets at the top of the stove, much like mode 1. The temperature was below
>1000 C (by observation of color) as long as fresh pellets were added.

This points to some primary air surviving beyond the char bed in the
previous mode, otherwise why should the char bed temperature reduce?
Ronal has also mentioned this and I have used this as a means to
enrich the cv of the offgas whilst maintaining low primary air. The
small amount of primary air reacts with the char to produce C->CO->CO2
but does not become hot enough to reduce any sizeable proportion of
this CO2 in the char bed, heat losses from the system controlling this
temperature. However the rising Nitrogen and CO2 is still hot enough
to pyrolyse any dry biomass added on top. This offgas is then able to
maintain secondary combustion (and an environment which incinerates
any CO and other PICs which would pass un reacted in the absence of a
complete secondary flame). It was my initial method of choice in which
to ensure a clean secondary flame from "house" coal burning.

>
>When wood burns slowly (as in a match), FIRST the heat flows inward,
>releasing the volatiles and making typically 20-30% charcoal. The surface
>temperature never rises above 600 C (the match surface is not incandescent).

I would add a different slant to this, the evolution of volatiles is
vigorous, they actually shield the match burning in a diffuse flame,
as the flame dies air does get to the char, which glows red briefly at
the neck, but char combustion is not sustained as the match radiates
heat too quickly, similarly a burnt match survives as char, though red
hot, in an oxy-acetylene flame. Remember also that the volatiles are
"supported" by wax impregnated in the wood (normally aspen here). I
have often demonstrated, on large and small scale, how a dry piece of
wood will pyrolyse so quickly that char is protected by the offgas, as
long as a convection current cannot form. Ronal may remember seeing
this.

>
>When wood is burned rapidly with forced draft, the outer surface becomes
>incandescent at 800-1000C, a temperature high enough for the emerging
>pyrolysis gases (CO2, H2O, volatiles), to react with the charcoal. In this
>case most of the charcoal is burned as well as the volatiles during the
>primary step.

I suspect something else is happening, in the high draught situation
the volatiles and products of combustion are swept away from the
surface, as we have discussed elsewhere freshly formed char is quite
reactive, as long as heat losses are not too high and the temperature
stays above 400C, and possibly less if the air is preheated, then the
char will burn. The amount of reactive surfaces at a sufficient
temperature then determines the equilibrium between CO and CO2,
tending towards the smaller molecule as temperature increases as
dictated by the entropy of the system. I am told increasing entropy
favours smaller molecules but cannot explain why.
>
>If there is a stoichiometric amount of air (~3 kg air/kg wood) this process
>makes producer gas similar to that in the downdraft gasifier.
>
>If there is excess air, the gas can then burn as they emerge, releasing even
>more heat to drive the process to higher temperatures. This could be called
>"simultaneous pyrolysis and combustion", SPC. I believe this is the basis
>of the operation of the new wood pellet stoves used for heating in which a
>trickle of pellets are burned on the grate.
>
>However, in both cases, the endothermic pyrolysis inside the particle
>moderates the temperature well below that of burning charcoal.

Too many points to consider at this time of night, in general I
disagree, I believe the air delivery is insufficient to cause an
equilibrium near char gasification to CO. A lot of what happens
relates to the moisture content of the pellet. In essence because of
its dryness (guaranteed by the fact that it is an intact pellet) the
pellet pyrolyses fast, this produces large volumes of volatiles of
high cv which react with air at the top of the crucible. Only a small
amount of air reaches the bottom of the crucible to burn out the char,
most of the char and ash is fluidised in this air and carbon particles
burn out in the semi diffuse flame, as witnessed by its yellow colour.
See also the colour of ash produced in these top fed pellet stoves, it
is chocolate brown, if there were enough primary air for
stoichiometric combustion of the carbon the ash would be white.

>Having speculated that the pellet heating stoves depend on reduced
>combustion temperatures at their grates, due to SPC, I am going to try to
>observe one more closely in operation this weekend. Does anyone have any
>information on this?

Ronal had a look at mine, evolution of pyrolysis gas is plain to see
through the flame into the crucible. To repeat myself above I think
pyrolysis and partial char combustion occur in the crucible, this is
effectively cooled by the primary and secondary air around it ( this
heat remains in the enthalpy of the gases and is not lost through the
stove walls), near complete combustion of char takes place in the
flame, which itself is in a stream of dilution air (in earlier stoves
to avoid some EPA requirements). European water heating pellet systems
work differently and tend to have lambda feedback for secondary air
control, I feel certain these have higher grate temperatures as we
have encountered slagging difficulties at low turndown.

Note also I have previously given references to different particulate
emissions for top fed, as discussed here, and bottom fed pellet stoves
which are becoming more popular (as they accommodate self de-ashing
and probably much lower excess air values) these may point to
differing combustion modes.

AJH

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From andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com Thu Nov 22 18:26:57 2001
From: andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com (AJH)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:21 2004
Subject: charcoal briquettes- 'vertical holes'
In-Reply-To: <002601c17328$6714ff80$0f41083e@default>
Message-ID: <6pvqvtkav371qchjrerm2d2iapjkr9e4oo@4ax.com>

On Thu, 22 Nov 2001 09:33:48 +0300, "elk" <elk@wananchi.com> wrote:

>
>We've talked and talked about CO metering on this list, but none of our technically-inclined members have >come up with a workable and affordable instrument design yet. What's up guys? With all the household CO >meters that are on the market in NorAm and Europe, we should be able to cobble something together that's >pretty cheap and robust... and battery powered. Once it's designed and tested I bet we could get funding >from Shell or similar to get a couple dozen meters out in the field through this list. THEN we can start >solving a few mysteries and educating people in a proper hands-on manner. We all agree that seeing is >believing!
>

Here a flue gas combustion analyser seems to cost about GBP1500, a 12v
powered hot wire system for monitoring CO in car exhausts costs GBP50.
The problem is the manufacture will not divulge the algorithm which is
used to display the CO percentage. Typically it will display 2% CO in
ambient air, which suggests the calibration is to do with the thermal
conductivity AND/OR specific heat of oxygen and CO, presumably there
being a mutual inverse probability or both appearing together (unless
the car is not sparking on one cylinder). Gas sampling is propelled by
fluctuations in exhaust pressure. It is one of those things I did not
have time to show Ronal in his brief visit, my colleagues have not let
me paly with their flue gas analyzer for comparison as its use is
restricted to lab personnel and not oily erks :-(.

 

AJH

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From andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com Thu Nov 22 18:27:30 2001
From: andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com (AJH)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:21 2004
Subject: CO DANGERS
In-Reply-To: <002601c17328$6714ff80$0f41083e@default>
Message-ID: <hh0rvto9fmi157146kg8msu9b87qn7si93@4ax.com>

On Thu, 22 Nov 2001 07:37:45 -0700, "Thomas Reed" <tombreed@home.com>
wrote:

>
>After the IDD burn is completed, air continues to burn the remaining
>charcoal. If the air fuel ratio is increase to 6/1, the charcoal is
>efficiently gasified and can burn with a beautiful flame at the secondary
>air holes. If not, it burns poorly in a wavering blue flame down at the
>charcoal level which probably allows CO to escape unburned.

Yes I assume if I do not see a flame holding around the whole
circumference of the stove rim that some CO is escaping, I think the
parameters that allow this to occur is cv content of offgas being too
low or gas velocity being too high for the diffuse flame to be
supported.

AJH

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From andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com Thu Nov 22 18:28:03 2001
From: andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com (AJH)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:21 2004
Subject: Higher efficiency thread
In-Reply-To: <000e01c1704b$b346bc20$2115210c@default>
Message-ID: <ft1rvtcsib2d6r0teaa1gtaodsp7th7a19@4ax.com>

On Sat, 17 Nov 2001 08:10:42 -0800, "Dean Still" <dstill@epud.net>
wrote:

>thus
>>the result mainly of utilizing the gaseous part of the biomass." Dr Mark
>Bryden and his students are working on determining how big a part radiation
>plays in heating the pot over a fire but it makes sense to me as well that
>in large part the hot flue gases touching the pot are doing most of the
>work.

Dean, I have acknowledged that you are expert in your analysis that
getting heat into the food is the high priority for overall
efficiency. It is not something I can practically contribute to.

If we wish to raise something to a high temperature we would choose to
maintain a high temperature difference. We know the adiabatic flame
temperature will be very high for dry biomass (~1500C??). In the
absence of any mass flow there would be no out flowing gases and
radiative transfer would be the major means. For choice Ronal will say
that an electric kiln is more efficient because there are no losses
associated with the mass flow. Once you have a combustion system then
flue gas flow is inevitable, this does not mean that it is a good heat
transfer medium. For a start in the absence of "pulse" or resonant
tube combustion systems the boundary layer of gases on the pan is a
big limiting factor, radiative transfer will not suffer from this. I
can visualise a radiant burner operating near stoichiometric air as
being a good method if we can find suitable materials.

>But in my experience it is quite possible to get enough primary air into the
>combustion chamber so that while the flame is yellow there is almost no
>smoke. It is not necessary to depend on secondary combustion if we achieve
>almost complete combustion initially.

This seems to imply simply that primary and secondary air are
delivered at the same level, I suggest this will mean high excess air.
Not that this need matter in the scheme of things.

AJH

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From english at adan.kingston.net Thu Nov 22 20:53:35 2001
From: english at adan.kingston.net (*.English)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:21 2004
Subject: Efficiency vs health impacts
In-Reply-To: <3BFA7BAE.6C7C27C6@cybershamanix.com>
Message-ID: <200111230153.fAN1rWq28516@adan.kingston.net>

 

> Another question on secondary air -- would preheating help or hurt
> the secondary burn?

I have tried preheated secondary air. I don't have any data which
isolates the effect of preheating secondary air. I know the best
results I have recorded were obtained with no preheat. I think I
would be very helpful with moist fuels. I have measure secondary air
temperatures in Turbo Tom styled stoves up around 700F. Thats gotta
help. It should widen the excess air sweet spot. Excess air in a well
mixed combustion environment lowers the temperature.

Alex

> Harmon Seaver
> CyberShamanix
> http://www.cybershamanix.com
>
>
>
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From english at adan.kingston.net Thu Nov 22 20:54:09 2001
From: english at adan.kingston.net (*.English)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:21 2004
Subject: closed room
In-Reply-To: <00a301c1727d$3ed7e7e0$d940083e@default>
Message-ID: <200111230153.fAN1rXq28523@adan.kingston.net>

ELK and Paul,
I did some testing with commercial charcoal briquettes a while back.
While I don't remember the exact numbers...

I measured CO/CO2 emissions from a charcoal stove where the
briquettes were spread out in a single layer with space between. Then
I took the same briquettes and dumped them into vertical
cylindrical pile in a Rocket stove. The latter had a blue flame
on top and a two or three fold reduction of CO emissions.

Alex

> Please remember someone's earlier suggestion (months ago) about the shapes
> and stacking of the briquettes to accomplish the same thing as the
> holes. You could place some of your regular briquettes in a way to
> simulate holes of larger diameters.
>

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From elk at wananchi.com Fri Nov 23 01:37:09 2001
From: elk at wananchi.com (elk)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:21 2004
Subject: CO detection
In-Reply-To: <002601c17328$6714ff80$0f41083e@default>
Message-ID: <007001c173e9$92a44d60$8940083e@default>

Thanks AJH;

 

From elk at wananchi.com Fri Nov 23 01:37:54 2001
From: elk at wananchi.com (elk)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:22 2004
Subject: Burning CO
In-Reply-To: <00a301c1727d$3ed7e7e0$d940083e@default>
Message-ID: <007101c173e9$93b87c80$8940083e@default>

Stovers

Being a Chemistry Dummy- I would appreciate a briefing on burning CO.

How does it burn? At what temperature? How much O2/air is required? Is CO2
the only by-product?

etc.

ect.

Seems there's a fine line to tread here between "efficiency" in terms of
heat + burn duration for cooking requirements and the dangers from CO
toxicity.

..........apologies! I slept through my Chemistry classes........

elk

PS- Alex; I bet you saw a significant increase in heat and a proportionate
decrease in burn time when charcoal briquettes were combusted vertically in
a rocket stove-(?).

--------------------------
Elsen L. Karstad
elk@wananchi.com
www.chardust.com
Nairobi Kenya

 

----- Original Message -----
From: "*.English" <english@adan.kingston.net>
To: <stoves@crest.org>
Sent: Friday, November 23, 2001 4:54 AM
Subject: Re: closed room

> ELK and Paul,
> I did some testing with commercial charcoal briquettes a while back.
> While I don't remember the exact numbers...
>
> I measured CO/CO2 emissions from a charcoal stove where the
> briquettes were spread out in a single layer with space between. Then
> I took the same briquettes and dumped them into vertical
> cylindrical pile in a Rocket stove. The latter had a blue flame
> on top and a two or three fold reduction of CO emissions.
>
> Alex
>
> > Please remember someone's earlier suggestion (months ago) about the
shapes
> > and stacking of the briquettes to accomplish the same thing as the
> > holes. You could place some of your regular briquettes in a way to
> > simulate holes of larger diameters.
> >
>
> -
> Stoves List Archives and Website:
> http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
> http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
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From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Fri Nov 23 08:59:22 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:22 2004
Subject: CO detection
In-Reply-To: <002601c17328$6714ff80$0f41083e@default>
Message-ID: <3BFE55FB.558154EC@cybershamanix.com>

Yes, I have a CO alarm, don't know whether or how it could be modified
to give gas amounts. You still have to have some sort of device to read that
data. If you do a google search on "gas analyzer", there's a lot of stuff out
there.
For example, here's a place to download demo gas analyzer software for
the PC:
http://www.autologicco.com/allproducts/download.shtm
This company sells sensor units to use with a PC, don't know the price, but I
emailed them for info. It also says that they do "custom software development"
in the gas analyzer field, so, depending upon cost, of course, this might be a
better answer.
There could be many other -- perhaps cheaper -- solutions. I got 12,700
hits on "gas analyzer" and 2680 hits on 'portable "gas analyzer"', and have
only looked at a few so far.

elk wrote:

> Thanks AJH;
>
> >From what you write, the relatively cheap car CO analyzer seems to be very
> specific to vehicle exhaust.
>
> Scratch that one.
>
> Now- haven't I seen household CO alarms- similar to those lithium-battery
> powered disc-shaped smoke detectors? I might be mistaken...........
>
> elk
>
> --------------------------
> Elsen L. Karstad
> elk@wananchi.com
> www.chardust.com
> Nairobi Kenya
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "AJH" <andrew.heggie@dtn.ntl.com>
> To: <stoves@crest.org>
> Sent: Friday, November 23, 2001 2:22 AM
> Subject: Re: charcoal briquettes- 'vertical holes'
>
> On Thu, 22 Nov 2001 09:33:48 +0300, "elk" <elk@wananchi.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >We've talked and talked about CO metering on this list, but none of our
> technically-inclined members have >come up with a workable and affordable
> instrument design yet. What's up guys? With all the household CO >meters
> that are on the market in NorAm and Europe, we should be able to cobble
> something together that's >pretty cheap and robust... and battery powered.
> Once it's designed and tested I bet we could get funding >from Shell or
> similar to get a couple dozen meters out in the field through this list.
> THEN we can start >solving a few mysteries and educating people in a proper
> hands-on manner. We all agree that seeing is >believing!
> >
>
> Here a flue gas combustion analyser seems to cost about GBP1500, a 12v
> powered hot wire system for monitoring CO in car exhausts costs GBP50.
> The problem is the manufacture will not divulge the algorithm which is
> used to display the CO percentage. Typically it will display 2% CO in
> ambient air, which suggests the calibration is to do with the thermal
> conductivity AND/OR specific heat of oxygen and CO, presumably there
> being a mutual inverse probability or both appearing together (unless
> the car is not sparking on one cylinder). Gas sampling is propelled by
> fluctuations in exhaust pressure. It is one of those things I did not
> have time to show Ronal in his brief visit, my colleagues have not let
> me paly with their flue gas analyzer for comparison as its use is
> restricted to lab personnel and not oily erks :-(.
>
> AJH
>
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--
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CyberShamanix
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From tombreed at home.com Fri Nov 23 09:28:35 2001
From: tombreed at home.com (Thomas Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:22 2004
Subject: Hydrogen-CO diatribe...
In-Reply-To: <00a301c1727d$3ed7e7e0$d940083e@default>
Message-ID: <02dd01c1742a$f7aad120$18e5b618@lakwod3.co.home.com>

Dear ELK and ALL:

No apologies necessary for non chemists... On the other hand I wasted time
in Chemistry when I could have been out tinkering with cars...
~~~~~
CO and H2 have the same energy content. CO = 12.0 MJ/m3; hydrogen, 12.1
MJ/m3 high heating value, HHV, and only 10.2 MJ/m3 LHV.

CO has a theoretical flame temperature (adiabatic flame temp) of 2468 C,
while hydrogen is 2210.

For CO the maximum flame velocity is 0.52m/s, while H2 is 11.7 m/s.

(These facts are all easily available in the North American Combustion
Handbook, available at Amazon.com for about $50, and I would sooner loose my
right arm).
~~~~~
Sorry about this diatribe, but I am tired of the ignorance surrounding H2 as
a fuel. Hydrogen is the ideal fuel for a non-existent all nuclear powered
world and has been chased by idealists ever since the "hydrogen economy" was
first proposed as the companion fuel for electricity "too cheap to meter" in
1970. It's main attraction is that ecofreaks can drink the exhaust of cars
(if you can catch it).

In 1970 my boss at MIT Lincoln Lab asked me to think of ways of making
hydrogen (the new "fashion" fuel then) from solar energy (other than solar
cells to electricity to H2). I thought about it for an hour, then decided
that sugar, alcohols and biomass were Mother Nature's energy sourves and
more suited to the real world.

Hydrogen is a great chemical for hydrogenating vegetable oils to make them
like animal fats, or hydrogenating coal to make it like a hydrocarbon.

Hydrogen is available in tanks for anyone interested in its use as a fuel.
Only glass blowers use it as far as I know. Hydrogen is very difficult to
store and hydrides and liquefactaction are expensive non solutions.

H2 costs much more than any other gas fuel. It can be made electrically
with a >50% loss of energy or by reforming and shifting natural gas.

In the REAL world, Mother Nature supplies NO native hydrogen, but LOTS of
hydrogen in combination with carbon and sometimes oxygen. Not only can you
drink the water in the exhaust of hydrocarbons, but you can grow plants with
the CO2 in the exhaust. Viva the animal and vegetable kindom combination.

Until about 1950 the principal gaseous fuel in the world was producer gas, a
happy combination of hydrogen and carbon monoxide. Oderants were added to
warn of its presence. All our parents knew the dangers of CO and only used
it when commiting suicide. Now if you put your head in the gas oven you are
likely to blow up the whole house, since natural gas isn't toxic.

Hydrogen is a terible fuel for IC engines. It's high flame speed makes
ordinary H2 combustion sound like knock, so it is never burned at
stoichiometric concentration, therefore not achieving the rated power of
engines. Needs to be moderated with excess air (but can burn with high
efficiency).

Hydrogen is a GREAT fuel for the simplest fuel cells. When they arrive we
may all be using it.

Incidentally, water is by far the greatest "greenhouse gas", exceeding CO2
by .015/.00035 = 43 times at 100% humidity, 21 C. (Those clouds up there
are WATER). Shouldn't we be worried about burning hydrogen fuels more than
C fuels?

Sorry about the diatribe, but I get sick of policy being dictated by
technically ignorant people.

Yours for a better, SMARTER future...

TOM REED BEF

Dr. Thomas Reed
The Biomass Energy Foundation
1810 Smith Rd., Golden, CO 80401
303 278 0558;
tombreed@home.com; www.woodgas.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "elk" <elk@wananchi.com>
To: <stoves@crest.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2001 11:34 PM
Subject: Burning CO

> Stovers
>
> Being a Chemistry Dummy- I would appreciate a briefing on burning CO.
>
> How does it burn? At what temperature? How much O2/air is required? Is CO2
> the only by-product?
>
> etc.
>
> ect.
>
> Seems there's a fine line to tread here between "efficiency" in terms of
> heat + burn duration for cooking requirements and the dangers from CO
> toxicity.
>
> ..........apologies! I slept through my Chemistry classes........
>
> elk
>
> PS- Alex; I bet you saw a significant increase in heat and a proportionate
> decrease in burn time when charcoal briquettes were combusted vertically
in
> a rocket stove-(?).
>
>
> --------------------------
> Elsen L. Karstad
> elk@wananchi.com
> www.chardust.com
> Nairobi Kenya
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "*.English" <english@adan.kingston.net>
> To: <stoves@crest.org>
> Sent: Friday, November 23, 2001 4:54 AM
> Subject: Re: closed room
>
>
> > ELK and Paul,
> > I did some testing with commercial charcoal briquettes a while back.
> > While I don't remember the exact numbers...
> >
> > I measured CO/CO2 emissions from a charcoal stove where the
> > briquettes were spread out in a single layer with space between. Then
> > I took the same briquettes and dumped them into vertical
> > cylindrical pile in a Rocket stove. The latter had a blue flame
> > on top and a two or three fold reduction of CO emissions.
> >
> > Alex
> >
> > > Please remember someone's earlier suggestion (months ago) about the
> shapes
> > > and stacking of the briquettes to accomplish the same thing as the
> > > holes. You could place some of your regular briquettes in a way to
> > > simulate holes of larger diameters.
> > >
> >
> > -
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From ronallarson at qwest.net Fri Nov 23 10:37:27 2001
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:22 2004
Subject: Fw: Efficiency vs health impacts (forward from Alex English)
Message-ID: <005f01c17435$03f71e20$e3e06641@computer>

Alex (and Stovers)

Thanks for the answers. I have down-loaded the Hasan-Khan material from
Eindhoven and will report on it. Looks good. I wonder if any Eindhoven
alumni can report further on this? Where are Hasan and Khan now?

In the 1995 discussions on these topics, there was assurance from a
different Eindhoven alum that we could not make charcoal cleanly with
inverted down draft - which is sort of like your attribution made below.
But I think that you don't believe that - and I don't. Is the difference
all in the top-lighting?

Thanks for the reply.

Ron

----- Original Message -----
From: *.English <english@adan.kingston.net>
To: Ron Larson <ronallarson@qwest.net>
Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2001 6:54 PM
Subject: Re: Efficiency vs health impacts

:

> Alex:
> Did you make these measurements yourself?
Yes.
> Part of the student supervision?
No.
> Was this done with natural draft (perhaps being easier to vary
> and measure excess air with blowers?)
Both separately. Blowers offer greater flexibility. No chimney,
higher burn rates, and higher primary air flow rates required by
fuels with higher moisture content, come to mind. The measurement of
excess air is derived from measurement of CO and CO2 in dry gases
sampled from the chimney, and some reasonable assumptions about the
composition of the fuel and the calibration of the equiptment.

>
> 2. Was your testing done only through the pyrolysis phase, or was there
> also some combustion of produced-charcoal at the end?

I was referring to the pyrolysis phase. I have also done measurements
during the charcoal consuming phase at the end.
>
> 3. What means did you employ to vary the secondary air?

On some stove models I have plugged secondary air holes with
insulation and mud, on others I have used plumbing valves.
>
> 4. Have you seen these or similar figures in print anywhere?
I think you will find similar stuff in
Clean Combustion of Wood by A.M. Hasan and R Khan (1991)
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/cc/cc.htm
This is about Eindhoven U. work with their downdraft stove. It was
many times cleaner than any updraft configuration that the tested.

Alex
>
>
> Thanks Ron
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: *.English <english@adan.kingston.net>
> To: <stoves@crest.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 5:16 AM
> Subject: Re: Efficiency vs health impacts
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> > > I think I've mentioned before that I've never gotten a nice
blue
> > > flame like I've read about, just orange and red shooting like gas jets
> > > inward from the secondary air holes -- so perhaps the gasification is
> > > not completing? Or maybe I need more secondary air?
> > >
> > Harmon,
> > There is a considerable range of secondary air supply that produces a
> flame with no
> > visible (to the naked eye in the absence of condensing steam) emissions.
> It is
> > possible to set up a burner in the "sweet spot" where emissions are
> minimized. This is
> > a much smaller range that is not necessarily the mix that produces a
> completely blue
> > flame. The blue flame is obtainable with better mixing, especially
> premixing, and more
> > excess air. Even with a blue flame there can be regions in the burner
> where some
> > unreacted products of gasification, or in this case pyrolysis, slip
> through unreacted.
> >
> > For example, no visible emissions could be achieved with air supplies
from
> 97% to
> > 200% of the theoretical air necessary for combining with the volatile
> pyrolysis
> > products. The sweet spot might be in the 120 to 140% range.
> >
> > I never did sort out what "no visible emissions" equates to as a percent
> of complete
> > combustion. It might be better than 98%. Depending the burner design,
the
> sweet spot
> > could go higher than 99.9%. The one or two percent that you can't see
> > contains plenty of noxious products that you wouldn't want to share a
> > closed space with.
> >
> > Alex English
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Alex English
> > RR 2 Odessa, Ontario
> > Canada K0H 2H0
> > 613-386-1927
> >
> >
> > -
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> >
>
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From ronallarson at qwest.net Fri Nov 23 11:05:28 2001
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:22 2004
Subject: Clean combustion of charcoal
In-Reply-To: <00a301c1727d$3ed7e7e0$d940083e@default>
Message-ID: <00bd01c17438$ef6be220$e3e06641@computer>

Alex and ELK (who said: > PS- Alex; I bet you saw a significant increase
in heat and a proportionate
> decrease in burn time when charcoal briquettes were combusted vertically
in > a rocket stove-(?).)

I think it very important that this list learn more about the emissions
aspects of charcoal combustion (so as to know more about what happens when
combined with wood and to be able to compare when the processes are
separated as in charcoal-making stoves).

Does ANYONE know of literature looking at the BEST ways to keep CO
measurements low while encouraging high efficiency as well?

Alex: Did your measurements below look into a combination of area and
temperature at the cooking surface? (keeping something other than number of
briquettes constant) Could you describe any differences with your
placement of briquettes and the approach used in the Pyromid stoves? (Love
to hear from Paul Hait on this topic also.)

ELK: Any comments on how your customers prefer to use your briquettes? Can
you add anything more on the comparisons of pillow briquettes and
cylindrical ones (both with and without holes)? On your report on "holey"
briquettes, what was the height or length of those (with 3/8 inch holes).

Ron

----- Original Message -----
From: *.English <english@adan.kingston.net>
To: <stoves@crest.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2001 6:54 PM
Subject: Re: closed room

> ELK and Paul,
> I did some testing with commercial charcoal briquettes a while back.
> While I don't remember the exact numbers...
>
> I measured CO/CO2 emissions from a charcoal stove where the
> briquettes were spread out in a single layer with space between. Then
> I took the same briquettes and dumped them into vertical
> cylindrical pile in a Rocket stove. The latter had a blue flame
> on top and a two or three fold reduction of CO emissions.
>
> Alex
>
> > Please remember someone's earlier suggestion (months ago) about the
shapes
> > and stacking of the briquettes to accomplish the same thing as the
> > holes. You could place some of your regular briquettes in a way to
> > simulate holes of larger diameters.
> >
>
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From andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com Fri Nov 23 14:39:35 2001
From: andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com (AJH)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:22 2004
Subject: Efficiency vs health impacts
In-Reply-To: <200111201215.fAKCFLq05407@adan.kingston.net>
Message-ID: <h38tvt09p3qh9edu67h8k5uqc41dsab2s8@4ax.com>

On Tue, 20 Nov 2001 09:50:13 -0600, Harmon Seaver
<hseaver@cybershamanix.com> wrote:

> Another question on secondary air -- would preheating help or hurt
>the secondary burn?

I have little doubt hot secondary air benefits the combustion, however
there are drawbacks in relation to air supply. If you are relying on
natural draught the forces available to move the air are low thermo
convection flows. The constraints to airflow relate to its velocity
and volume. As a hot mass of air occupies more space than a cold one
you will often find it difficult to provide the same mass of secondary
air if it is pre heated.

AJH

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From tmiles at trmiles.com Fri Nov 23 14:56:36 2001
From: tmiles at trmiles.com (Tom Miles)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:22 2004
Subject: Burning CO
In-Reply-To: <00a301c1727d$3ed7e7e0$d940083e@default>
Message-ID: <002f01c17458$eb89b860$6401a8c0@mshome.net>

Elk and Stovers,

Some practical observations from another ignorant pyromaniac.

CO burning is a continual challenge in industrial combustion. We face it in
industrial boilers and gasifiers. CO often evolves from low velocity,
stratified zones of combustion. Mechanical energy is required to mix CO with
O2 and temperature is needed for them to react. In designing (100 MMBtuh)
burners for producer gas we provide energy in the form of high velocity air
and in patterns that ensure thorough mixing. A flame designed with
recirculation ensures that incoming CO will be ignited by the standing
flame. Our biggest challenge is variation in heating value (cv) of the gas
due to moisture in the fuel. In industrial applications we find that a pilot
flame (often natural gas or oil) is useful for safety but not necessary to
sustain the flame.

In the absence of direct flame you need temperature to ensure ignition. Many
stoves or fireplaces have low gas temperatures (400 F/205C) above the fuel
that quench the CO reactions. Good designs have insulated reaction chambers
that provide good clean combustion at high temperatures. (High temperatures
require clean, low ash, fuels that won't slag, which is why successful
heating stove developers ensure that their customers burn clean fuels.)
Gasification temperatures are often measured with a standard thermocouple at
1200F to 1400 F (650-760C). Actual gas temperatures can be as much as 200F
(375C) higher depending on heat losses due to radiation in the
chamber/furnace/boiler. 1400 F (760C) is a minimum combustion temperature to
ensure CO burnout, provided you have adequate mixing.

Solving CO problems in industrial boilers is often a matter of finding
patterns of unreacted gas in a furnace and disturbing them with air. In a
stove you can use air velocity to disturb the boundary layer of mixed gases
at the surface of the burning fuel (or char) or in the CO rich detached
flame. (Tom Reed's secondary air does this quite nicely.) Either way you may
need a bellows or a fan to mix the combustible gases and air.

Tom

Thomas R Miles
TR Miles, Technical Consultants
tmiles@trmiles.com
503-292-0107
----- Original Message -----
From: "elk" <elk@wananchi.com>
To: <stoves@crest.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2001 10:34 PM
Subject: Burning CO

> Stovers
>
> Being a Chemistry Dummy- I would appreciate a briefing on burning CO.
>
> How does it burn? At what temperature? How much O2/air is required? Is CO2
> the only by-product?
>

 

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From andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com Fri Nov 23 18:56:22 2001
From: andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com (AJH)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:22 2004
Subject: Efficiency vs health impacts
In-Reply-To: <000f01c171d1$7f7d34a0$0ae26641@computer>
Message-ID: <jbotvto2etlt6t140h1rqi7g4g9fb6d0rt@4ax.com>

On Wed, 21 Nov 2001 07:23:11 -0500, "*.English"
<english@adan.kingston.net> wrote:

>Ron and Harmon,
>Have a look at the following pages. Some of the answers are there.
>
>http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/paperhtml/Punepaper2b.htm
>http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/emissions/emissions.htm

I never did congratulate you on these charts, they enable several
inferences to be drawn.
>
> I will try and respond to your questions soon.

Breath bated!
AJH

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From Tami.Bond at noaa.gov Fri Nov 23 22:58:52 2001
From: Tami.Bond at noaa.gov (Tami Bond)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:22 2004
Subject: CO detection
Message-ID: <2643728c0f.28c0f26437@pmel.noaa.gov>

 

Stovers,

> We've talked and talked about CO metering on this list, but none
> of our technically-inclined members have come up with a workable
> and affordable instrument design yet.

What's 'affordable'? There are at least a couple of CO devices on the
market in the 250-300 USD range. There are combustion analyzers for
under 1000 USD that will measure CO, CO2. (Bacharach is the most
famous, I think-- often used in gas-furnace service, for example--
www.bacharach-inc.com).

Is that too much? What kind of price ought we to target?

Trouble with the cheap devices is the response time is slow (~10
minutes) and if your burn is changing rapidly you might miss high and
low spots. That may not matter if you are measuring IAQ. I'm of the
opinion that real-time monitoring is needed, though.

What do we need to measure? What species, response times, ranges? I am
trying to organize thoughts on this, and started writing something for
circulation that I should've finished a couple of weeks ago. Then I got
bogged down by explaining procedures from USEPA vs procedures that are
reproducible by our 'real' clients-- that is, people without money. But
the paper is still in the works, I promise!

Tami

 

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From tombreed at home.com Sat Nov 24 07:59:30 2001
From: tombreed at home.com (Thomas Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:22 2004
Subject: Camp Stoves Galore
Message-ID: <036901c174e7$75e39100$18e5b618@lakwod3.co.home.com>

 

Dear Stovers:

I found lots of camp stove goodies
at...http://wings.interfree.it/html/main.html:
It describes a dozen homemade stoves burning alcohol, wood or
hexamine.  Interesting pictures and often detailed instructions on
building...

Onward,       TOM
REED         
BEF
Dr. Thomas
Reed  The Biomass Energy Foundation 1810 Smith Rd., Golden, CO
80401303 278 0558; <A
href="mailto:tombreed@home.com">tombreed@home.com; <A
href="http://www.woodgas.com">www.woodgas.com

BEGIN:VCARD
VERSION:2.1
N:Reed;Thomas;B;Dr.
FN:Thomas B Reed
NICKNAME:Tom
ORG:Biomass Energy Foundation;Publication, Consulting, Engineering
TITLE:President
TEL;WORK;VOICE:303 278 0558
TEL;HOME;VOICE:303 278 0558
TEL;CELL;VOICE:303 913 2074
TEL;WORK;FAX:303 278 0558
TEL;HOME;FAX:303 278 0558
ADR;WORK:;;1810 Smith Rd.;Golden;CO;80401;USA
LABEL;WORK;ENCODING=QUOTED-PRINTABLE:1810 Smith Rd.=0D=0AGolden, CO 80401=0D=0AUSA
ADR;HOME;ENCODING=QUOTED-PRINTABLE:;;1810 Smith Rd=0D=0A=0D=0A;Golden;CO;80401;United States
LABEL;HOME;ENCODING=QUOTED-PRINTABLE:1810 Smith Rd=0D=0A=0D=0A=0D=0AGolden, CO 80401=0D=0AUnited States
X-WAB-GENDER:2
URL;HOME:http://www.woodgas.com
URL;WORK:http://www.woodgas.com
BDAY:20010315
EMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:tombreed@home.com
REV:20011124T125640Z
END:VCARD

 

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From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Sat Nov 24 10:31:14 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:22 2004
Subject: Camp Stoves Galore
In-Reply-To: <036901c174e7$75e39100$18e5b618@lakwod3.co.home.com>
Message-ID: <3BFFBD19.A7368DC9@cybershamanix.com>

I notice some of the customized Zip stoves are using a titanium
combustion chamber. Does titanium actually have any advantage (other
than weight) over tincanium in this particular situation, i.e., would it
withstand charcoal burning any better?
I see REI has several titanium mugs, a 0.4L, a 0.41L, and a 0.47L
double walled one -- at $44.95. The other two are $18 and $29.95
respectively. Absurd prices, of course, but if one wanted to make a long
lasting lightweight camping IDD stove....?
Hmm, I just noticed that the most expensive, double walled model
says:

> Double-wall construction is not suitable for cooking; do not place on an
> open flame or hot burner
>
So presumably the layers are too thin. At any rate, what about
titanium? Or, for that matter, stainless? I have been looking for
sources of stainless which might lend themselves to this as well. Of
course, riser sleeves or other refractory insulation do wonders for the
tincanium stove, but add bulk and weight -- and I'm a bit concerned
about the health effects of handling riser sleeves, at least their are a
plenitude of warnings about cerathermic materials.

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

 

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From kchishol at fox.nstn.ca Sat Nov 24 16:17:15 2001
From: kchishol at fox.nstn.ca (Kevin Chisholm)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:22 2004
Subject: Camp Stoves Galore
In-Reply-To: <036901c174e7$75e39100$18e5b618@lakwod3.co.home.com>
Message-ID: <004e01c1752c$eec9d4e0$3e19059a@kevin>

Dear Harmon

...del...

> I notice some of the customized Zip stoves are using a titanium
> combustion chamber. Does titanium actually have any advantage (other
> than weight) over tincanium in this particular situation, i.e., would it
> withstand charcoal burning any better?

Titanium is extremely oxidation resistant at high tempreatures. It would be
vastly superior to tincanium for charcoal stove parts. I would suggest that
titanium components would last 100 to 1000 times longer than would tincanium
in locations which were greater than 900 to 1000 F.

Kindest regards,

Kevn Chisholm
> I see REI has several titanium mugs, a 0.4L, a 0.41L, and a 0.47L
> double walled one -- at $44.95. The other two are $18 and $29.95
> respectively. Absurd prices, of course, but if one wanted to make a long
> lasting lightweight camping IDD stove....?
> Hmm, I just noticed that the most expensive, double walled model
> says:
>
> > Double-wall construction is not suitable for cooking; do not place on an
> > open flame or hot burner
> >
> So presumably the layers are too thin. At any rate, what about
> titanium? Or, for that matter, stainless? I have been looking for
> sources of stainless which might lend themselves to this as well. Of
> course, riser sleeves or other refractory insulation do wonders for the
> tincanium stove, but add bulk and weight -- and I'm a bit concerned
> about the health effects of handling riser sleeves, at least their are a
> plenitude of warnings about cerathermic materials.
>
>
> --
> Harmon Seaver
> CyberShamanix
> http://www.cybershamanix.com
>
>
>
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From dstill at epud.net Sat Nov 24 20:07:05 2001
From: dstill at epud.net (Dean Still)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:22 2004
Subject: high temperature resistant metals
Message-ID: <000401c1750c$2de934c0$5915210c@default>

Dear Kevin, and others?

Sounds like you know materials. Can you clue me in on stainless vs. regular
steel for use in combustion chambers. Some say there are better varieties
and then I've also been told that even 430 doesn't last at temperatures
around 1400 to 1600F, which are average in a Rocket stove. What about cast
iron, etc? Can anyone predict performance given material, thickness,
temperature?

Best,

Dean

 

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From kchishol at fox.nstn.ca Sat Nov 24 22:05:57 2001
From: kchishol at fox.nstn.ca (Kevin Chisholm)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:22 2004
Subject: high temperature resistant metals
In-Reply-To: <000401c1750c$2de934c0$5915210c@default>
Message-ID: <005901c1755d$a838fd40$b219059a@kevin>

Dear Dean

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dean Still" <dstill@epud.net>
To: "Kevin Chisholm" <kchishol@fox.nstn.ca>; <stoves@crest.org>
Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2001 1:19 PM
Subject: Re: high temperature resistant metals

> Dear Kevin, and others?
>
> Sounds like you know materials.

Thanks, but my knowledge is smattered...

Can you clue me in on stainless vs. regular
> steel for use in combustion chambers.

Good general rules are that mild steel is basically good to about 800F for a
sustained period, and readily available (ie, common) stainless steels, like
304 and 306 are good for about 1100 F on a sustained basis.

Some say there are better varieties
> and then I've also been told that even 430 doesn't last at temperatures
> around 1400 to 1600F, which are average in a Rocket stove.

There are indeed other "high performance stainless steels," good to about
1,700 F in turbine applications. In static applications, where strength is
not a consideration, they could be pushed higher. However, they are very
expensive, not readily available, and may not be available at all in sheet
form for general fabrication.

What about cast
> iron, etc?

Cast irons have a melting point in the range of 2100F, while mild steel has
a melting point of about 2735F. Like steel, the concern is oxidation, and
not melting. The best cast irons would be those with a high silicon content,
about 2-3%. They are quite good at resisting scaling. Such high silicon cast
irons are used in grates for coal furnaces. Regrettably, I can't tell you
their operating temperature limits, but they are much better than mild
steel.

Can anyone predict performance given material, thickness,
> temperature?

Sure!! Metallurgical Engineers, in general, and sellers of these materials,
in particular. There is no great mystery.

You have probably heard the old saying "The best way to solve a problem is
to eliminate it in the first place." As it applies to stove design, the
best way to solve scaling problems is to design with refractories, rather
than metals. In my furnace designs, I try to use refractories wherever
possible, and where tension elements are required, I try to design the
refractory so that the metal requirements are at relatively low
temperatures.

Hope this is helpful.

Kindest regards,

Kevin Chisholm
>
> Best,
>
> Dean
>
>
>
>
>

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From Michaeljking at btinternet.com Sun Nov 25 02:35:54 2001
From: Michaeljking at btinternet.com (Michael King)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:22 2004
Subject: Trailstove campstove
Message-ID: <003c01c17583$cf473340$75217ad5@oemcomputer>

To Stovers,
What do you guys think of the 'Trailstove', with its mouthblown technology?
Is it just an air assisted Hobo stove?
www.Trailstove.com
http://www.trailstove.com/details.html

Michael King

 

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From tombreed at home.com Sun Nov 25 09:20:38 2001
From: tombreed at home.com (Thomas Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:22 2004
Subject: Fw: Trailstove campstove
Message-ID: <048a01c175bb$a9c552e0$18e5b618@lakwod3.co.home.com>

Dear Happy Campers:

Check this stove out at www.Trailstove.com. Certainly simple. Nice site..
good advertising (against propane), ... easy buy. The camp stovers are a
separate group that does a great job with various fuels, even biomass.

BUt the picture shows a FLARE of unburned gas ~8" high. When this flare
hits the cold bottom of a pot full of water, the top 7" is quenched, making
soot and unburned emissions, so efficiency will be very low.

It would be nice if TRAILSTOVE said something about efficiency and
emissions.

TOM REED BEF STOVEWORKS

----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael King" <Michaeljking@btinternet.com>
To: <stoves@crest.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2001 12:35 AM
Subject: Trailstove campstove

> To Stovers,
> What do you guys think of the 'Trailstove', with its mouthblown
technology?
> Is it just an air assisted Hobo stove?
> www.Trailstove.com
> http://www.trailstove.com/details.html
>
> Michael King
>
>
>
>
> -
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From tombreed at home.com Sun Nov 25 09:28:16 2001
From: tombreed at home.com (Thomas Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:22 2004
Subject: Camp Stoves Galore
In-Reply-To: <036901c174e7$75e39100$18e5b618@lakwod3.co.home.com>
Message-ID: <049601c175bc$bb444700$18e5b618@lakwod3.co.home.com>

Dear Kevin and All:

You neglected to mention oxidizing vs reducing atmospheres. Our tincanium
stoves last quite well in the reducing mode (700C, 1300F) making woodgas and
even the combustion chamber lasts well because the incoming (forced) air
keeps the metal parts cool and puts the heat out the top of the stove.

So, it is necessary to consider specific applications as well as the "raw"
material properties of the various metals and ceramics.

However, I am anxious to bet my hands on titanium to try it against
stainless...

Onward, TOM REED BEF STOVEWORKS

Dr. Thomas Reed
The Biomass Energy Foundation
1810 Smith Rd., Golden, CO 80401
303 278 0558;
tombreed@home.com; www.woodgas.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kevin Chisholm" <kchishol@fox.nstn.ca>
To: "Harmon Seaver" <hseaver@cybershamanix.com>; "Stoves" <Stoves@crest.org>
Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2001 2:13 PM
Subject: Re: Camp Stoves Galore

> Dear Harmon
>
> ...del...
>
>
> > I notice some of the customized Zip stoves are using a titanium
> > combustion chamber. Does titanium actually have any advantage (other
> > than weight) over tincanium in this particular situation, i.e., would it
> > withstand charcoal burning any better?
>
> Titanium is extremely oxidation resistant at high tempreatures. It would
be
> vastly superior to tincanium for charcoal stove parts. I would suggest
that
> titanium components would last 100 to 1000 times longer than would
tincanium
> in locations which were greater than 900 to 1000 F.
>
> Kindest regards,
>
> Kevn Chisholm
> > I see REI has several titanium mugs, a 0.4L, a 0.41L, and a 0.47L
> > double walled one -- at $44.95. The other two are $18 and $29.95
> > respectively. Absurd prices, of course, but if one wanted to make a long
> > lasting lightweight camping IDD stove....?
> > Hmm, I just noticed that the most expensive, double walled model
> > says:
> >
> > > Double-wall construction is not suitable for cooking; do not place on
an
> > > open flame or hot burner
> > >
> > So presumably the layers are too thin. At any rate, what about
> > titanium? Or, for that matter, stainless? I have been looking for
> > sources of stainless which might lend themselves to this as well. Of
> > course, riser sleeves or other refractory insulation do wonders for the
> > tincanium stove, but add bulk and weight -- and I'm a bit concerned
> > about the health effects of handling riser sleeves, at least their are a
> > plenitude of warnings about cerathermic materials.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Harmon Seaver
> > CyberShamanix
> > http://www.cybershamanix.com
> >
> >
> >
> > -
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From english at adan.kingston.net Sun Nov 25 09:43:03 2001
From: english at adan.kingston.net (*.English)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:22 2004
Subject: Efficiency vs health impacts
In-Reply-To: <200111211221.fALCLoq18882@adan.kingston.net>
Message-ID: <200111251442.fAPEgxq01688@adan.kingston.net>

 

> I never did congratulate you on these charts, they enable several
> inferences to be drawn.
> >
AJH,
Thanks.
Its all your fault, and those who eg me on.

The goal was two fold.
1. Document some of the emissions and real time emissions stability
from a "best case" scenario for clean natural draft combustion of
a biomass.
2. Isolate the variables and quantify the emission "cost" associated
with those variables.

The first part was done, more or less. The real- time CO/CO2 graph
can be compared directly with the graphs from Eindhoven.

I only played with part two. The IDD pellet option is perfect for
esoteric combustion studies because variables can be so easily
correlated with emissions. You can see this in the charts where I
reduced secondary air with two turns of valve and CO2 rises and holds
steady, with no change in CO. Two more turns and they both rise.
Reversible and repeatable. Inverse but similarly with primary air and
CO2.

There are dozens of simple experiments that could be done to help
quantify the effect on emissions of the common variables which are
discussed on this list. With most stoves you would need real-time
particulate measurement to nail down correlations. The steady state
nature of the IDD pellet stove means that simpler methods could
accomplish the same thing.

Preheating secondary air, insulating or cooling the combustion
chamber, reducing chimney height, alternate fuels, with various
moisture levels, ect. A graduate student's dream.

BUT.... this list is about the real world where scientist dance on
the sidelines and their effects are not quantified in real-time.

Alex

 

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From english at adan.kingston.net Sun Nov 25 10:04:21 2001
From: english at adan.kingston.net (*.English)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:22 2004
Subject: Clean combustion of charcoal
In-Reply-To: <00bd01c17438$ef6be220$e3e06641@computer>
Message-ID: <200111251504.fAPF4Gq04131@adan.kingston.net>

 

> Alex: Did your measurements below look into a combination of area and
> temperature at the cooking surface? (keeping something other than number of
> briquettes constant) Could you describe any differences with your
> placement of briquettes and the approach used in the Pyromid stoves? (Love
> to hear from Paul Hait on this topic also.)

Ron,
No I did not do a full slate of tests with multiple variables. It
would be especially easy to do with charcoal and CO. With the right
equiptment and a days work all these variables could be wroughed
out reasonably. The upshot is that the tools are often not in the
hands of the doers like Rogerio, Elsen, Crispin and Dean. Even if
they are, the numbers are dangerous. They complicate the rhetoric.

Alex

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From elk at wananchi.com Sun Nov 25 10:45:34 2001
From: elk at wananchi.com (elk)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:22 2004
Subject: CO detection
In-Reply-To: <2643728c0f.28c0f26437@pmel.noaa.gov>
Message-ID: <006501c175c8$00d43220$6741083e@pentium333>

Tami;

My idea of 'Affordable' would be something under $100, but if nothing that
cheap is available so be it. We need to determine what data we can
realistically collect and what we can learn from the results.

Your observations on response time for some of the commercially available
units is well taken. This is the sort of info we need to start selecting the
best option. If the price is high- so be it.... at least we can start the
ball rolling with some specific goals.

As most, if not all of the list members are interested in stoves, they MUST
be interested in stove emissions. We can learn a lot about toxicity and
efficiency by measuring CO. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't CO the single
most informative emission to measure? Particulates may vie for the first
place here- but I reckon that something you can see can also be assessed
(and detected) easily enough.

Just think of the data we could accumulate if, say, 50 of our list members
had CO meters and used them in a fashion that provided reliable comparative
data on the stoves we are most interested in.

I think it's a goal worth pursuing & I bet we could find funding to obtain &
distribute the meters easily enough.

I look forward to your paper on this. In the meantime..... what CAN we
determine about a stove if we have a good CO meter (and maybe a thermometer)
at hand?

rgds;

elk

----------------------------------------------
Elsen L.Karstad, Nairobi Kenya
elk@wananchi.com
http://www.chardust.com/

----- Original Message -----
From: Tami Bond <Tami.Bond@noaa.gov>
To: <stoves@crest.org>
Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2001 6:58 AM
Subject: Re: CO detection

>
> Stovers,
>
> > We've talked and talked about CO metering on this list, but none
> > of our technically-inclined members have come up with a workable
> > and affordable instrument design yet.
>
> What's 'affordable'? There are at least a couple of CO devices on the
> market in the 250-300 USD range. There are combustion analyzers for
> under 1000 USD that will measure CO, CO2. (Bacharach is the most
> famous, I think-- often used in gas-furnace service, for example--
> www.bacharach-inc.com).
>
> Is that too much? What kind of price ought we to target?
>
> Trouble with the cheap devices is the response time is slow (~10
> minutes) and if your burn is changing rapidly you might miss high and
> low spots. That may not matter if you are measuring IAQ. I'm of the
> opinion that real-time monitoring is needed, though.
>
> What do we need to measure? What species, response times, ranges? I am
> trying to organize thoughts on this, and started writing something for
> circulation that I should've finished a couple of weeks ago. Then I got
> bogged down by explaining procedures from USEPA vs procedures that are
> reproducible by our 'real' clients-- that is, people without money. But
> the paper is still in the works, I promise!
>
> Tami
>
>
>
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From elk at wananchi.com Sun Nov 25 10:46:07 2001
From: elk at wananchi.com (elk)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:22 2004
Subject: Clean combustion of charcoal
In-Reply-To: <00a301c1727d$3ed7e7e0$d940083e@default>
Message-ID: <006601c175c8$01f92a20$6741083e@pentium333>

Ronal Asks;
>
> ELK: Any comments on how your customers prefer to use your briquettes?
Can
> you add anything more on the comparisons of pillow briquettes and
> cylindrical ones (both with and without holes)? On your report on "holey"
> briquettes, what was the height or length of those (with 3/8 inch holes).
>

I've no comparisons to make with pillow briquettes- they arent's available
in the Kenyan Market. I'm currently the only one (Chardust Ltd.) making
briquettes at all here- though there's a dormant coffe-husk charcoal
briquetter that uses a feed-type pelletizer. This producer can't compete
with the current prices on lump-wood charcoal (under USD .15 per kg).

My customers use our Vendor's Watse Briquettes (VWB) as they use any lump
charcoal. One thing that we've found is that we can't expect the consumer to
change in order to accommodate our product. We endeavour to make the product
as similar to lump-charcoal as we can.

I'll post the comparison between holey and hole-less coffee-husk charcoal
briquettes later this week- after we've done the tests.

rgds;

elk

 

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From hotspringfreak at hotmail.com Sun Nov 25 13:57:01 2001
From: hotspringfreak at hotmail.com (Chris Smith)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:22 2004
Subject: Trailstove campstove/Rocket Stove/Into
In-Reply-To: <048a01c175bb$a9c552e0$18e5b618@lakwod3.co.home.com>
Message-ID: <OE34q7S8jSbf1YwFHbU0000b4f3@hotmail.com>

I have noticed that updraft stove before - I figure it's performance is the same
as a 3 stone fire. I made Aprovecho's design Fish Camp Stove (tincanium Rocket
elbow stove) last night, from their plans pamphlet ...

http://www.efn.org/~apro/atcapheat.html

... and got similar performance to the Trailstove campstove (flaring yellow
flame - also used little fuel and made little smoke). Soot on the pot as
expected - pays to rub dish soap on the pot bottom beforehand. I could have
limited soot and scant smoke though by decreasing the amount of twigs I payed
in. Insulation was gardener's perlite. Without a pot skirt and with gathered
stick fuel it boiled a liter of water in about 10 min. for my coffee. What I
like is that for a campstove (and unlike a 3 stone fire), it's "bombproof" as to
wind effects - in fact the harder the wind blows, the better it works. Great
stove Dean! Even considering the one time cost of tinsnips and a bag of
perlite (also considered insulating instead with 1" cerablanket 5 ft. X 10 ft.
for $10 USD - local stove shop retail prices), I see that I could make "quite a
few" tincanium Rocket stoves for the cost even of one of these reasonably priced
Trailstoves. I will play with a blowtube like the guy in this picture:

http://www.feedmag.com/feature/fr404_popup3.html

You could hook the blow tube of a Trailstove campstove to a blood pressure cuff
(bulb hand squeeze pump, air bladder and needle valve release - common medical
sphygmomanometer with manometer removed) and meter out air instead of working
your lungs by a wood fire. Kind of a 3rd hand (esp. if you should be watching
your blood pressure ...). Just a thought.

I got to this list (and Aprovecho) fairly recently via the WINGS campstove site
(the reverse of most) and have read your full list archives now. I've been able
to collect notebooks (and hundreds of Internet links) full of CMS, wood gas and
Rocket stove materials as a result. I want to thank you all for sharing your
expertise and experiences through the years (special thanks to Dr. Reed,
Crispin, Aprovecho). I've been lurking and learning from you stove pro's. I
look forward to, sooner than later, building a homemade forced convection wood
gas campstove (the Ultimate!) - so far I've built natural convection wood pellet
tincanium CMS stoves, various stoves from the WINGS collection and some cookers
at solarcooking.org. Building Rocket stoves now!

... en fiero,
Chris Smith

----- Original Message -----
From: "Thomas Reed" <tombreed@home.com>
To: "Stoves" <Stoves@crest.org>; "Shivayam Ellis" <shivayam55@hotmail.com>;
"Katherine Cochrane" <kcochrane@earthlink.net>; <stratus@trailstove.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2001 6:15 AM
Subject: Fw: Trailstove campstove

> Dear Happy Campers:
>
> Check this stove out at www.Trailstove.com. Certainly simple. Nice site..
> good advertising (against propane), ... easy buy. The camp stovers are a
> separate group that does a great job with various fuels, even biomass.
>
> BUt the picture shows a FLARE of unburned gas ~8" high. When this flare
> hits the cold bottom of a pot full of water, the top 7" is quenched, making
> soot and unburned emissions, so efficiency will be very low.
>
> It would be nice if TRAILSTOVE said something about efficiency and
> emissions.
>
> TOM REED BEF STOVEWORKS
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Michael King" <Michaeljking@btinternet.com>
> To: <stoves@crest.org>
> Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2001 12:35 AM
> Subject: Trailstove campstove
>
>
> > To Stovers,
> > What do you guys think of the 'Trailstove', with its mouthblown
> technology?
> > Is it just an air assisted Hobo stove?
> > www.Trailstove.com
> > http://www.trailstove.com/details.html
> >
> > Michael King
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -
> > Stoves List Archives and Website:
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> > http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
> >
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> > Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
> > Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
> >
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> > List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
> > List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
> > List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>
> >
> > Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html
> > -
> > Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
> > http://www.bioenergy2002.org
> > http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
> > http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml
> >
> > For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
> > http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm
> >
>
>
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>
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> http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm
>
>

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From psanders at ilstu.edu Sun Nov 25 14:54:01 2001
From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:23 2004
Subject: homemade forced convection woodgas campstove
In-Reply-To: <048a01c175bb$a9c552e0$18e5b618@lakwod3.co.home.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20011125133455.0173a8a0@mail.ilstu.edu>

At 10:44 AM 11/25/01 -0800, Chris Smith wrote:
> I've been lurking and learning from you stove pro's. I
>look forward to, sooner than later, building a homemade forced convection wood
>gas campstove (the Ultimate!) -

Chris,

This IS what is needed. Campstove will translate into household stove for
the poor.

I have seen Tom Reed's TURBO stove in operation. It is FORCED
convection. Disadvantages of needing a motorized blower and batteries
(small but too costly for the very poor).

Tom taught me (and I learned from my experiences) that a LOT of air is
needed, and my use of an innertube for the air supply was not successful
(VERY early experience, so others might have more luck or expertise).

BUT, maybe we only need the forced convection (IDD type) for the primary
air (much lower volume) to create a substantially greater amount of
gas. And then we solve the problem of secondary air volume separately (as
with air inlets and chimney and whatever).

Crispin has an awesome water pump. I wonder what kind of air pump might be
possible. I like the idea of human weight being the source of the pressure
to force the air. Sit on the air-bladder and a valve controls the forced
air to the fire. But the bladder must refill rapidly, or be on a see-saw
for shifting weight back an forth.

Chris: You are a lurker no more !!! We need your skills in building the
stove(s).

[[ General note: I am far behind in my Stoves reading and activities. End
of semester grading and then to Africa on 5 December. Sorry if my
involvement has slipped a little lately. But GOLLY I love this
Stoves listserve !!!!!!!!!!!! ]]

Paul

 

Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders

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From hotspringfreak at hotmail.com Sun Nov 25 23:53:12 2001
From: hotspringfreak at hotmail.com (Chris Smith)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:23 2004
Subject: Subject: homemade forced convection woodgas campstove
Message-ID: <OE48FZS4HIv6EybqfAj0000f377@hotmail.com>

 

----- Original Message -----
From: +ACI-Paul S. Anderson+ACI- +ADw-psanders+AEA-ilstu.edu+AD4-
To: +ACI-Chris Smith+ACI- +ADw-hotspringfreak+AEA-hotmail.com, +ACI-Stoves+ACI- Stoves+AEA-crest.org+ADs-
Cc: +ACI-Thomas Reed+ACI- +ADw-tombreed+AEA-home.com+AD4AOw- +ACIAIg-Michael King+ACIAIg-
+ADw-Michaeljking+AEA-btinternet.com+AD4AOw- +ACI-Apolin+AOE-rio J Malawene+ACI-
+ADw-ajmalawene01+AEA-hotmail.com+AD4AOw- +ACI-Bob and Karla Weldon+ACI- +ADw-bobkarlaweldon+AEA-cs.com+AD4AOw- +ACI-Ed
Francis+ACI- +ADw-cfranc+AEA-ilstu.edu+AD4AOw- +ACI-Tsamba--Alberto Julio+ACI- +ADw-ajtsamba+AEA-zebra.uem.mz+AD4-
Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2001 11:59 AM
Subject: homemade forced convection woodgas campstove

+AD4- At 10:44 AM 11/25/01 -0800, Chris Smith wrote:
+AD4- +AD4- I've been lurking and learning from you stove pro's. I
+AD4- +AD4-look forward to, sooner than later, building a homemade forced convection
wood
+AD4- +AD4-gas campstove (the Ultimate+ACE-) -
+AD4-
+AD4- Chris,
+AD4-
+AD4- This IS what is needed. Campstove will translate into household stove for
+AD4- the poor.

I'd much rather learn to make a good functioning tincanium stove (say, an ersatz
ZIP stove) than buy a ZIP stove. There is another email forum (Make Your Own
Gear Forum) where a number of people have tentatively tried to to make forced
convection camp stoves. The lowest of the lowend of these is probably this one:

http://www.kolumbus.fi/timo.noko/rokkakero/english.html

+AD4- I have seen Tom Reed's TURBO stove in operation. It is FORCED
+AD4- convection. Disadvantages of needing a motorized blower and batteries
+AD4- (small but too costly for the very poor).
+AD4-
+AD4- Tom taught me (and I learned from my experiences) that a LOT of air is
+AD4- needed, and my use of an innertube for the air supply was not successful
+AD4- (VERY early experience, so others might have more luck or expertise).
+AD4-
+AD4- Crispin has an awesome water pump. I wonder what kind of air pump might be
+AD4- possible. I like the idea of human weight being the source of the pressure
+AD4- to force the air. Sit on the air-bladder and a valve controls the forced
+AD4- air to the fire. But the bladder must refill rapidly, or be on a see-saw
+AD4- for shifting weight back an forth.

I like that idea - an air compressor of some sort provides the air either
directly or is
stored for release later. Reliability and avoiding motorized power are key
then. Like a tire's innertube, another common medical device, the Ambu-bag
(manual resuscitation bag) has a hollow flexible form (shaped to fit within the
grasp)
that is easily squeezed to empty it of air through a one-way valve and then
immediately returns to it's former shape, +ACI-sucking+ACI- air back through another
one-way valve into the bag's interior, which is it's reservoir. You can squeeze
and refill in about 1 sec. and they hold 0.5-1.0 liters of air. Foot pumping is
the same, so why not a foot pump? Pogo Stick :+AD4-? Whoa+ACE- The +ACI-Journey To
Forever+ACI- website shows a treadle foot pump that looks like a stair climber
exercise machine that could just as easily pump air as water, however cooking on
the run looks to be a 2 person activity. Also if water drops (fall) of 20 feet
are available then a hydraulic ram pump will compress air during operation
without any external power source (they use water pressure to compress air to
pump water uphill usually). There are plans at Homepower.com in pdf format for
download in their file section. Also at VITA.

Back to batteries though ... powering a forced air campstove could be
accomplished by running a lead off of the campers flashlight (torch): either as
a hardware hack (adding an OUT mini-jack for the fan, as the ZIP Stove does) or
by removing the flashlight head and screwing on a blind cap-end with an
electrical lead wire OUT (to power the microblower). Put the rheostat pot to
vary fan speed at the blower or at the power source (aka flashlight). That way
at least you could standardize the size of batteries carried for different
devices and possibly cut down on weight packed.
+AD4-
+AD4- BUT, maybe we only need the forced convection (IDD type) for the primary
+AD4- air (much lower volume) to create a substantially greater amount of
+AD4- gas. And then we solve the problem of secondary air volume separately (as
+AD4- with air inlets and chimney and whatever).
+AD4-
In a nutshell+ACE-
+AD4-
+AD4- Chris: You are a lurker no more +ACEAIQAh- We need your skills in building the
+AD4- stove(s).
+AD4-
+AD4- +AFsAWw- General note: I am far behind in my Stoves reading and activities. End
+AD4- of semester grading and then to Africa on 5 December. Sorry if my
+AD4- involvement has slipped a little lately. But GOLLY I love this
+AD4- Stoves listserve +ACEAIQAhACEAIQAhACEAIQAhACEAIQAh- +AF0AXQ-
+AD4-
+AD4- Paul

Thank you Prof. Anderson. I'm enjoying learning from you all here. I'm sure
you are right about this list.

Grading papers or Africa...hmm. I guess Africa wins then? +ADw-G+AD4-.

en fiero,
Chris Smith
Coeur d'Alene, Idaho
+AD4-
+AD4-
+AD4-
+AD4- Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
+AD4- Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
+AD4- Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360+ADs- FAX: 309-438-5310
+AD4- E-mail: psanders+AEA-ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/+AH4-psanders
+AD4-
+AD4-

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From keith at journeytoforever.org Mon Nov 26 02:12:12 2001
From: keith at journeytoforever.org (Keith Addison)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:23 2004
Subject: homemade forced convection woodgas campstove
In-Reply-To: <048a01c175bb$a9c552e0$18e5b618@lakwod3.co.home.com>
Message-ID: <v04210101b8279b6cb6a0@[192.168.0.200]>

Hello Paul, Chris and all

I think forced convection is a must, but having a hand- or
human-operated pump is not going to help the acceptability factor a
lot. Battery-powered fans can be cheap, but battery replacement
isn't, and neither is a solar-powered battery charger. Isn't there
some simple and cheap way of converting the heat from the fire into
enough power to drive a small fan?

Here's an interesting camping stove website, by the way:
http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~we2a-sod/index.htm

All best

Keith Addison

>At 10:44 AM 11/25/01 -0800, Chris Smith wrote:
>> I've been lurking and learning from you stove pro's. I
>>look forward to, sooner than later, building a homemade forced
>>convection wood
>>gas campstove (the Ultimate!) -
>
>Chris,
>
>This IS what is needed. Campstove will translate into household
>stove for the poor.
>
>I have seen Tom Reed's TURBO stove in operation. It is FORCED
>convection. Disadvantages of needing a motorized blower and
>batteries (small but too costly for the very poor).
>
>Tom taught me (and I learned from my experiences) that a LOT of air
>is needed, and my use of an innertube for the air supply was not
>successful (VERY early experience, so others might have more luck or
>expertise).
>
>BUT, maybe we only need the forced convection (IDD type) for the
>primary air (much lower volume) to create a substantially greater
>amount of gas. And then we solve the problem of secondary air
>volume separately (as with air inlets and chimney and whatever).
>
>Crispin has an awesome water pump. I wonder what kind of air pump
>might be possible. I like the idea of human weight being the source
>of the pressure to force the air. Sit on the air-bladder and a
>valve controls the forced air to the fire. But the bladder must
>refill rapidly, or be on a see-saw for shifting weight back an forth.
>
>Chris: You are a lurker no more !!! We need your skills in
>building the stove(s).
>
>[[ General note: I am far behind in my Stoves reading and
>activities. End of semester grading and then to Africa on 5
>December. Sorry if my involvement has slipped a little lately. But
>GOLLY I love this Stoves listserve !!!!!!!!!!!! ]]
>
>Paul
>
>
>
>Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
>Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
>Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
>E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders

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From Tami.Bond at noaa.gov Mon Nov 26 04:05:17 2001
From: Tami.Bond at noaa.gov (Tami Bond)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:23 2004
Subject: CO detection and rambling
Message-ID: <2801e29838.298382801e@pmel.noaa.gov>

 

Elk,

Let's take your $100 monitoring system as a challenge, and hope we get
there. The gauntlet has been thrown!

> Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't CO the single
> most informative emission to measure? Particulates may vie for the
> firstplace here- but I reckon that something you can see can also
> be assessed (and detected) easily enough.

I would agree-- if only because it's non-detectable and immediately
dangerous. Any other opinions? I think we want PM (particulate matter),
but CO might be more important. Smoke is one indicator of health
hazards, but you can (obviously) produce CO without smoke once you get
to solid-phase burning-- what some call charcoal. Probably, we want to
measure both CO and PM, just like Grant did.

You can get an indoor CO device with a readout for $75. But again, the
response time is slow.

> Just think of the data we could accumulate if, say, 50 of our list
> members had CO meters and used them in a fashion that provided
> reliable comparative data on the stoves we are most interested in.

I *am* thinking-- dreaming, don't wake me!

Okay, I have a penchant for marginally relevant questions, and am good
at falling off topic wagons. So I will throw these out-- are there any
health types on the list? After the 'closed room' chat, I am
wondering...

1) What is it that makes eyes sting from smoke? Gaseous organics?
Particulate matter? It's not the CO, which is non-detectable.

2) This question has bugged me for a long time: Why is CO odorless?
Humans have used fire and incomplete combustion for millenia. Why has
there been no evolutionary trend to allow us to detect CO? I can think
of a few reasons, none satisfying:

a) Fire-use time scale much shorter than evolutionary time scale. (Not
sure, but it seems that variations in humans, e.g. skin color, might be
newer than fire use.)
b) Smoke provides sufficient warning of incomplete combustion that a
second detector isn't needed. (Implies that charcoal or
other 'smokeless' fuel hasn't been part of ancient history? Hard to
believe.)
c) CO is too difficult to detect. (But we can detect 50 ppm of NO2, and
trace organics at far lower concentrations. CO does bind to organic
molecules-- like hemoglobin, or it wouldn't be dangerous!)
d) Humans have generally been smart enough to stay out of unvented
spaces with combustion inside. (Isn't that problem what a lot of us are
working on?)

Of course, you have to believe in evolution to make any of the above
arguments. Apologies if I have tread on anyone's beliefs.

Tami

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From keith at journeytoforever.org Mon Nov 26 06:34:58 2001
From: keith at journeytoforever.org (Keith Addison)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:23 2004
Subject: homemade forced convection woodgas campstove
In-Reply-To: <048a01c175bb$a9c552e0$18e5b618@lakwod3.co.home.com>
Message-ID: <v0421010cb827d62282af@[192.168.0.200]>

"Chris Smith" <hotspringfreak@hotmail.com> wrote:

>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Keith Addison" <keith@journeytoforever.org>
>To: <stoves@crest.org>
>Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2001 11:22 PM
>Subject: Re: homemade forced convection woodgas campstove
>
>
> > Hello Paul, Chris and all
> >
> > I think forced convection is a must, but having a hand- or
> > human-operated pump is not going to help the acceptability factor a
> > lot. Battery-powered fans can be cheap, but battery replacement
> > isn't, and neither is a solar-powered battery charger. Isn't there
> > some simple and cheap way of converting the heat from the fire into
> > enough power to drive a small fan?
> >
> > Here's an interesting camping stove website, by the way:
> > http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~we2a-sod/index.htm
> >
> > All best
> >
> > Keith Addison
>
>Yes, he has a campstove collection with a life of it's own.

I think it's taken over his life! He does say he's "attacked by
stoves". And Japanese homes aren't too spacious.

>I prefer the Roarer
>burner to the Silent burners, myself. Something about that sound.
>
>Seems like there must be someway ... and I've heard that before. I
>go round and
>round on that one - it's awakened me from sleep before. Here's what
>you've got
>me thinking:
>
>The natural flow through a primary air draft isn't enough to spin a
>freewheeling
>fan blade by itself, unless there's a very tall chimney. Right?

Yep, which'll make the thing too rickety to put a pot on top of, most like.

>Radiometers
>are solar demonstration devices (typically look like light bulbs) that spin a
>propeller through uneven heating of black and white vanes, but that's on a
>needle bearing and sealed within a partial vaccum.
>
>An impeller blade up atop the fire might spin furiously and pull air
>up through
>the primary and fuel AND also mix pyrolysis gas that passes through
>it's blades
>(with secondary draft air that's entrained). Sounds expensive to implement.
>High temperature rated steel and lubricants, thermal expansion, particulate
>accumulation ... stuff.

Interesting though, but you're probably right, not lo-tech/cheapo
enough for a tincanium stove.

>Increase the exit gas velocity through good insulation and by running the gas
>out through an orifice. Probably needs a significant chimney.
>
>How about a fire grate constructed of curved tubing or channels that extend up
>from the primary draft and allow heated air to exit into the flames. Getting
>the thermo-siphoned convective air up top to where it's needed in an IDD for a
>top-down burn is another story. I can imagine an updraft scenario for this
>better. There are hollow tube C-shaped fireplace grates like this that help
>with space heating rooms.

Have you seen this thing?
http://journeytoforever.org/teststove.html

>Could also just crinkle (serpentine bending) the
>walls of the fuel chamber itself, so preheated air is channelled vertically up
>in rows outside it through natural convection, between itself and the gap
>separating a surrounding outer second (but insulated) wall.
>
>Combine some of the above: thermosiphoning with rocket nozzle stove
>architecture, some turbulent flow gasifier enhancement and a gas wick for a
>flame ring?

Ulp!

>Thermoelectric. Serial thermocouples of dissimilar metals heated,
>producing at
>their junctures enough additive electron flow through these circuits
>to power a
>primary air fan.

I was thinking of this, but I don't know enough about it. It struck
me it might be the simplest way. There's not much power there but a
small fan wouldn't need very much. Thermocouples are quite common,
shouldn't be too expensive.

>Steam nozzle porting to a fan (double-circuited system?). Exiting
>steam from a
>heated kettle spout spins a turbine attachment, mechanically linked via an
>external vertical shaft and gearing to a horizontally positioned fan blade
>adjacent to the primary air draft beneath? Too Rube Goldberg-esque?

Or steam from a water jacket, with insulation between the water
jacket and the outer skin? There's plenty of heat for that. Can't
quite picture it though... Rube Goldberg-esque's just fine, as long
as it works!

>Perpetual motion? Cold fusion? That would help.

:-) Yes, wouldn't it?

>I believe it was the U.N. that made the position that electricity was a basic
>human right.

Yes, well. They just said the same thing about food. Of course
they're right - would that it were just a matter of decree. Two
billion still don't have electricity (at least that, I'd say), about
800 million don't have enough food, a billion don't have a safe water
supply, two billion don't have adequate sanitation, and all the
goalposts keep receding (like the WHO's "Health for all by the year
2000").

>I understand the motor (the "business end") better than the power
>supply issue so I hope somebody can figure something ingenious, indiginous and
>ubiquitous.
>
>Any more thoughts on forcing convective flows (without an outside
>power supply)
>through an IDD stove that anyone might offer?
>
>Spinning those wheels (to no effect) ...

Too soon to say "To no effect" Chris.

Best

Keith

> Chris Smith

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From jpmanley at midcoast.com Mon Nov 26 07:23:04 2001
From: jpmanley at midcoast.com (Pat Manley)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:23 2004
Subject: homemade forced convection woodgas campstove
Message-ID: <200111261223.HAA19297@dns.midcoast.com>

Hi Keith
I have seen a small thermoelectric generator that is in an assembly that
sits on top of a wood stove, that produces plenty of power to spin a
propeller to move the hot air above the stove around.Most any wood stove
dealer sell them here in Maine. The generator is only about 2 inches square,
and about a 1/4 inch thick.
The whole assembly is way too expensive for the application you speak of,
but it would really do the trick. If it were mass produced, would most
likely be fairly cheap.
I build masonry heaters, and have often thought of trying to use
thermoelectrics (in the heater core)to generate power for a home.
Best
Pat Manley

>>Thermoelectric. Serial thermocouples of dissimilar metals heated,
>>producing at
>>their junctures enough additive electron flow through these circuits
>>to power a
>>primary air fan.
>
>I was thinking of this, but I don't know enough about it. It struck
>me it might be the simplest way. There's not much power there but a
>small fan wouldn't need very much. Thermocouples are quite common,
>shouldn't be too expensive.
>
J Patrick Manley
15 Nelson Ridge South
Washington Maine 04574
207 845 2440

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From pverhaart at optusnet.com.au Mon Nov 26 07:32:24 2001
From: pverhaart at optusnet.com.au (Peter Verhaart)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:23 2004
Subject: CO detection and rambling
In-Reply-To: <2801e29838.298382801e@pmel.noaa.gov>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011126223016.00a44b70@mail.optusnet.com.au>

At 01:05 26/11/01 -0800, you wrote:

>Elk,
>
>1) What is it that makes eyes sting from smoke? Gaseous organics?
>Particulate matter? It's not the CO, which is non-detectable.

Could it be aldehydes? Yes, they would be gaseous.

PIet

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From elk at wananchi.com Mon Nov 26 08:20:18 2001
From: elk at wananchi.com (elk)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:23 2004
Subject: CO detector
Message-ID: <01b601c1767d$66bdf840$6b41083e@default>

 

Tami- a $75 CO detector WITH a readout?  I
don't care if it's slow (how slow?), if we use a known-volume space with a
known-quantity fuel and different stoves........ I've got time. Something I've
learned to cultivate here other than trout and chickens is
patience.

Where can I get one? I'll figure a way to get it to
Kenya- no fear. Sounds just about right!

rgds;

elk


--------------------------Elsen L.
Karstadelk@wananchi.com<A
href="http://www.chardust.com">www.chardust.comNairobi
Kenya


From Carefreeland at aol.com Mon Nov 26 09:08:15 2001
From: Carefreeland at aol.com (Carefreeland@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:23 2004
Subject: CO detection and rambling
Message-ID: <4a.24d0a40.2933a6c8@aol.com>

Tami, Elk and all,
As one who has too many times "slightly" poisoned myself with CO, and
lived to report it, I submit the following. The more this happens, the
faster you recognize the symptoms.
Most commonly I have leaky truck exhaust, or get a whiff of wet or green
wood burning while starting a woodstove. We use salt to clear the ice on the
roads, and when you spread it like I do, an exhaust system only lasts 2
years. Floorboards rust out too.
Another sneaky thing is when I'm using the convection type kerosene
heaters in the greenhouse. If a little moisture makes it into the oil, the
wick becomes fouled and an incomplete combustion results.
First, the watering eyes, comes from any compound with an acidic reaction
with the moisture in your eyes. Usually sulfur or nitrogen compounds,
possibly chlorine. Sometimes, CO in truck exhaust doesn't have much of this
which makes it very dangerous, same with the kerosene if it's very clean.
CO2 can do this from carbonic acid, but it takes a lot, and you're probably
suffocating from lack of O2 by then.
Second, Headache, this is a particular type caused from oxygen
deprivation to the brain. Similar to altitude sickness, but comes on much
quicker. This is what I pay attention to. The brain is a very sensitive
instrument.
Third, nausea, by the time this is noticed, you have a serious dose of
CO. At this point get fresh air quickly for a few days, or go to the
hospital for oxygen right away if it persists. Don't drive unless you have
too.
The CO can stay in your blood for days without pure oxygen to "run it
out" as it forms a stronger bond with hemoglobin than O2.
If it doesn't kill you it only makes you stronger. I believe that the
cave men and city dwellers must compensate for CO concentrations like
mountain people compensate for altitude. If the body is exposed over time to
low doses, it must produce excess oxygen handling capacity.
Just a few hours driving in Cincinnati at rush hour, during a bad
pollution alert is enough to make a clean air breather very sick. Just
working around busy intersections for hours on a calm day can do the same.
Been there, done that, as most of my landscaping projects are in busy
business districts. I know it's CO, because oxygen from the cutting torch
makes the headache go away. So does a few hours in a sealed sunny
greenhouse, previously saturated with CO2 from the night before.
This CO stuff is not to be messed with. If you notice any of these
symptoms, time to get away from whatever you're doing for a day or two and
then find the problem before repeating the experiment.
Tami, how's this for rambling?
Dan Dimiduk

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From kenboak at stirlingservice.freeserve.co.uk Mon Nov 26 09:21:30 2001
From: kenboak at stirlingservice.freeserve.co.uk (kenboak@stirlingservice.freeserve.co.uk)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:23 2004
Subject: homemade forced convection woodgas campstove
Message-ID: <v04210114b82802b9fd44@[192.168.0.200]>

Keith & all,

A small Stirling engine, cheaply made from stainless steel and
pressed metal construction could supply a few watts to drive a fan.
US$5.00 should cover the materials and cost of production.

Such an engine would have a bore of about 25mm and a stroke of 22mm
and produce about 5W. The body of the engine would be about 8" long
and providing the initial stove lighting proocess supplied heat into
the engine's hotcap then it could be up and running in about a
minute. A friend of mine has such an engine (self built) in his
model boat. The Stirling Engine Society in the UK has plans for this
engine, for DIY construction.

An alternative would be a turbine driven by the combustion gases
driving a small forced draught fan mounted on the same shaft - this
would make it a genuine turbo-stove.

I used to make these as a kid from bits of old tin can and cocoa
tins. A welding rod could provide a suitable shaft, and this
arrangement may be more suited to local construction - and cheaper.

Ken Boak

 


 

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From tombreed at home.com Mon Nov 26 09:33:56 2001
From: tombreed at home.com (Thomas Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:23 2004
Subject: More on CO
In-Reply-To: <4a.24d0a40.2933a6c8@aol.com>
Message-ID: <052f01c17685$322ca880$18e5b618@lakwod3.co.home.com>

Dear All:

I recommend Dan Dimiduk's careful, but not panic y approach to CO (below).
Here's a few more comments.

1) In wood fires the smoke will drive you away before the CO causes
symptoms, so the smoke acts as a natural "odorant" (like added to natural
gas and propane).

2) The real danger to us biomass folks is from the charcoal remaining after
the volatiles burn off. Invisible, odorless and deadly. Another reason to
avoid charcoal making/fires.

3) Our turbo stove burns the CO with a nice clean BLUE flame after
volatiles are burned by changing the primary air fuel ratio from 1/6 to 6/1.

Carefully onward.. TOM REED BEF STOVEWORKS
Dr. Thomas Reed
The Biomass Energy Foundation
1810 Smith Rd., Golden, CO 80401
303 278 0558;
tombreed@home.com; www.woodgas.com
----- Original Message -----
From: <Carefreeland@aol.com>
To: <Tami.Bond@noaa.gov>; <stoves@crest.org>
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 7:08 AM
Subject: Re: CO detection and rambling

> Tami, Elk and all,
> As one who has too many times "slightly" poisoned myself with CO, and
> lived to report it, I submit the following. The more this happens, the
> faster you recognize the symptoms.
> Most commonly I have leaky truck exhaust, or get a whiff of wet or
green
> wood burning while starting a woodstove. We use salt to clear the ice on
the
> roads, and when you spread it like I do, an exhaust system only lasts 2
> years. Floorboards rust out too.
> Another sneaky thing is when I'm using the convection type kerosene
> heaters in the greenhouse. If a little moisture makes it into the oil,
the
> wick becomes fouled and an incomplete combustion results.
> First, the watering eyes, comes from any compound with an acidic
reaction
> with the moisture in your eyes. Usually sulfur or nitrogen compounds,
> possibly chlorine. Sometimes, CO in truck exhaust doesn't have much of
this
> which makes it very dangerous, same with the kerosene if it's very clean.
> CO2 can do this from carbonic acid, but it takes a lot, and you're
probably
> suffocating from lack of O2 by then.
> Second, Headache, this is a particular type caused from oxygen
> deprivation to the brain. Similar to altitude sickness, but comes on much
> quicker. This is what I pay attention to. The brain is a very sensitive
> instrument.
> Third, nausea, by the time this is noticed, you have a serious dose of
> CO. At this point get fresh air quickly for a few days, or go to the
> hospital for oxygen right away if it persists. Don't drive unless you
have
> too.
> The CO can stay in your blood for days without pure oxygen to "run it
> out" as it forms a stronger bond with hemoglobin than O2.
> If it doesn't kill you it only makes you stronger. I believe that the
> cave men and city dwellers must compensate for CO concentrations like
> mountain people compensate for altitude. If the body is exposed over time
to
> low doses, it must produce excess oxygen handling capacity.
> Just a few hours driving in Cincinnati at rush hour, during a bad
> pollution alert is enough to make a clean air breather very sick. Just
> working around busy intersections for hours on a calm day can do the same.
> Been there, done that, as most of my landscaping projects are in busy
> business districts. I know it's CO, because oxygen from the cutting torch
> makes the headache go away. So does a few hours in a sealed sunny
> greenhouse, previously saturated with CO2 from the night before.
> This CO stuff is not to be messed with. If you notice any of these
> symptoms, time to get away from whatever you're doing for a day or two and
> then find the problem before repeating the experiment.
> Tami, how's this for rambling?
> Dan Dimiduk
>
> -
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From Carl.Carley at eml.ericsson.se Mon Nov 26 10:14:42 2001
From: Carl.Carley at eml.ericsson.se (Carl Carley (EMP))
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:23 2004
Subject: CO detection
Message-ID: <BBB80FB03D54D51192DA0002A56B02485A908D@eukbant103.uk.eu.ericsson.se>

Can CO be determined using a Lambda sensor?
A while back on the gas list Lambda probes were discussed. Using second hand automotive lambda sensors hooked up to a simple Lambda amplifier giving an indication of emissions.
Output from this amplifier could drive say an LED bar graph, these LED's suitably buffered could control air flow, giving you a closed loop feedback system, self regulating.
Just a thought.
Carl

-----Original Message-----
From: elk [mailto:elk@wananchi.com]
Sent: 25 November 2001 15:07
To: stoves@crest.org
Subject: Re: CO detection

Tami;

My idea of 'Affordable' would be something under $100, but if nothing that
cheap is available so be it. We need to determine what data we can
realistically collect and what we can learn from the results.

Your observations on response time for some of the commercially available
units is well taken. This is the sort of info we need to start selecting the
best option. If the price is high- so be it.... at least we can start the
ball rolling with some specific goals.

As most, if not all of the list members are interested in stoves, they MUST
be interested in stove emissions. We can learn a lot about toxicity and
efficiency by measuring CO. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't CO the single
most informative emission to measure? Particulates may vie for the first
place here- but I reckon that something you can see can also be assessed
(and detected) easily enough.

Just think of the data we could accumulate if, say, 50 of our list members
had CO meters and used them in a fashion that provided reliable comparative
data on the stoves we are most interested in.

I think it's a goal worth pursuing & I bet we could find funding to obtain &
distribute the meters easily enough.

I look forward to your paper on this. In the meantime..... what CAN we
determine about a stove if we have a good CO meter (and maybe a thermometer)
at hand?

rgds;

elk

----------------------------------------------
Elsen L.Karstad, Nairobi Kenya
elk@wananchi.com
http://www.chardust.com/

----- Original Message -----
From: Tami Bond <Tami.Bond@noaa.gov>
To: <stoves@crest.org>
Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2001 6:58 AM
Subject: Re: CO detection

>
> Stovers,
>
> > We've talked and talked about CO metering on this list, but none
> > of our technically-inclined members have come up with a workable
> > and affordable instrument design yet.
>
> What's 'affordable'? There are at least a couple of CO devices on the
> market in the 250-300 USD range. There are combustion analyzers for
> under 1000 USD that will measure CO, CO2. (Bacharach is the most
> famous, I think-- often used in gas-furnace service, for example--
> www.bacharach-inc.com).
>
> Is that too much? What kind of price ought we to target?
>
> Trouble with the cheap devices is the response time is slow (~10
> minutes) and if your burn is changing rapidly you might miss high and
> low spots. That may not matter if you are measuring IAQ. I'm of the
> opinion that real-time monitoring is needed, though.
>
> What do we need to measure? What species, response times, ranges? I am
> trying to organize thoughts on this, and started writing something for
> circulation that I should've finished a couple of weeks ago. Then I got
> bogged down by explaining procedures from USEPA vs procedures that are
> reproducible by our 'real' clients-- that is, people without money. But
> the paper is still in the works, I promise!
>
> Tami
>
>
>
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From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Mon Nov 26 10:33:38 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:23 2004
Subject: homemade forced convection woodgas campstove
In-Reply-To: <v04210114b82802b9fd44@[192.168.0.200]>
Message-ID: <3C0260A7.560F78C1@cybershamanix.com>

I guess I'm not sure what all the fuss is about re: forced draft
for stoves. Even the fairly crude IDD coffee can stoves I've made thus
far work extremely well without forced draft -- in fact, the only real
problem I've had is *limiting* the primary air, not providing more of
it. I found I needed more secondary air, but that was easily solved by
simply making bigger holes.
I can see a use for forced draft in bigger, heating stoves and
boilers, but in a campstove? The very small amount of dry twigs you need
to cook a meal can always be gathered ahead of time and carried with you
in case of rain (and, at least in the areas where I camp, can even be
gathered in the rain from the lower, dead branches of evergreens).

--
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From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Mon Nov 26 10:46:52 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:23 2004
Subject: CO detection and rambling
In-Reply-To: <2801e29838.298382801e@pmel.noaa.gov>
Message-ID: <3C0263C5.84CCCAFE@cybershamanix.com>

I'd like a meter to monitor CO, but I'm also wondering about
obtaining a CO sensor for a flue which could trigger a solenoid to
either further open a secondary air port or trigger a blower to provide
more air. I'm not sure if this would be cost effective, perhaps just
always providing excess secondary air would be simpler, especially when
thinking of previous posts on secondary air.
I'm talking in terms of larger stoves and boilers here, not small
cookstoves. Perhaps just a small blower forcing the secondary air thru
preheating passages and then thru nozzles aimed to provide maximum
mixing would be better than any CO detecting in the flue.

--
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From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Mon Nov 26 13:08:58 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:23 2004
Subject: CO detection
In-Reply-To: <002601c17328$6714ff80$0f41083e@default>
Message-ID: <3C028514.350AB3D1@cybershamanix.com>

Well, the Autologic unit I posted about before that advertised "custom
programming" is out of the ballpark. $5100 for the 5gas, $4500 for the 4 gas
unit, over $500 just for the software. And they use your own PC.
I guess I'm a bit apalled at the costs of these things. Seems a bit of a
ripoff if all the computing power is in the PC, as I know I've seen just CO
probes for quite cheap.

Harmon Seaver wrote:

> Yes, I have a CO alarm, don't know whether or how it could be modified
> to give gas amounts. You still have to have some sort of device to read that
> data. If you do a google search on "gas analyzer", there's a lot of stuff out
> there.
> For example, here's a place to download demo gas analyzer software for
> the PC:
> http://www.autologicco.com/allproducts/download.shtm
> This company sells sensor units to use with a PC, don't know the price, but I
> emailed them for info. It also says that they do "custom software development"
> in the gas analyzer field, so, depending upon cost, of course, this might be a
> better answer.
> There could be many other -- perhaps cheaper -- solutions. I got 12,700
> hits on "gas analyzer" and 2680 hits on 'portable "gas analyzer"', and have
> only looked at a few so far.
>
> elk wrote:
>
> > Thanks AJH;
> >
> > >From what you write, the relatively cheap car CO analyzer seems to be very
> > specific to vehicle exhaust.
> >
> > Scratch that one.
> >
> > Now- haven't I seen household CO alarms- similar to those lithium-battery
> > powered disc-shaped smoke detectors? I might be mistaken...........
> >
> > elk
> >
> > --------------------------
> > Elsen L. Karstad
> > elk@wananchi.com
> > www.chardust.com
> > Nairobi Kenya
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "AJH" <andrew.heggie@dtn.ntl.com>
> > To: <stoves@crest.org>
> > Sent: Friday, November 23, 2001 2:22 AM
> > Subject: Re: charcoal briquettes- 'vertical holes'
> >
> > On Thu, 22 Nov 2001 09:33:48 +0300, "elk" <elk@wananchi.com> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >We've talked and talked about CO metering on this list, but none of our
> > technically-inclined members have >come up with a workable and affordable
> > instrument design yet. What's up guys? With all the household CO >meters
> > that are on the market in NorAm and Europe, we should be able to cobble
> > something together that's >pretty cheap and robust... and battery powered.
> > Once it's designed and tested I bet we could get funding >from Shell or
> > similar to get a couple dozen meters out in the field through this list.
> > THEN we can start >solving a few mysteries and educating people in a proper
> > hands-on manner. We all agree that seeing is >believing!
> > >
> >
> > Here a flue gas combustion analyser seems to cost about GBP1500, a 12v
> > powered hot wire system for monitoring CO in car exhausts costs GBP50.
> > The problem is the manufacture will not divulge the algorithm which is
> > used to display the CO percentage. Typically it will display 2% CO in
> > ambient air, which suggests the calibration is to do with the thermal
> > conductivity AND/OR specific heat of oxygen and CO, presumably there
> > being a mutual inverse probability or both appearing together (unless
> > the car is not sparking on one cylinder). Gas sampling is propelled by
> > fluctuations in exhaust pressure. It is one of those things I did not
> > have time to show Ronal in his brief visit, my colleagues have not let
> > me paly with their flue gas analyzer for comparison as its use is
> > restricted to lab personnel and not oily erks :-(.
> >
> > AJH
> >
> > -
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> --
> Harmon Seaver
> CyberShamanix
> http://www.cybershamanix.com
>
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Harmon Seaver
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From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Mon Nov 26 13:14:25 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:23 2004
Subject: CO detection
In-Reply-To: <002601c17328$6714ff80$0f41083e@default>
Message-ID: <3C02865F.F5A5EE66@cybershamanix.com>

Well, the cheapest Scott portable unit (other than the badges) is the
CO Sniffer, and that's $589. I sent them another request for info on
something that was just a probe that could be inserted in a flue and
utilzed a PC or laptop for readout, number crunching, etc. but haven't
an answer yet.

http://www.scottinstruments.com/products/product.cfm?ID=94

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

 

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From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Mon Nov 26 16:13:35 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:23 2004
Subject: CO detection
In-Reply-To: <2FCE8613B36ED2118EB800805F6F05AF03CE2AFD@nt-comm6>
Message-ID: <3C02B053.8215AA60@cybershamanix.com>

Here's something a tad more reasonable:
http://www.dsmith-inc.com/fyrite.htm

It also can do CO2 and O2, but I'm not sure from the page if you have to
buy extra modules for those or not. $372 is the cheapest I've found so
far, but I know I saw something the other day that connected to a Palm
Pilot, but I couldn't get the page to work.

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

 

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From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Mon Nov 26 16:16:43 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:23 2004
Subject: CO detection
In-Reply-To: <2FCE8613B36ED2118EB800805F6F05AF03CE2AFD@nt-comm6>
Message-ID: <3C02B117.156BCBAB@cybershamanix.com>

Here we go, $220, hooks to a PC and also can be used with a Palm,
don't know what the PC or Palm software costs tho --
http://www.onsetcomp.com/Whats_New/Press_Release_data_sheets/5359_CO_PR.html

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

 

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From hotspringfreak at hotmail.com Tue Nov 27 01:48:38 2001
From: hotspringfreak at hotmail.com (Chris Smith)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:23 2004
Subject: homemade forced convection woodgas campstove
Message-ID: <F2424lCFMqGzSJfcMeS0000a335@hotmail.com>

 

Two good avenues. Thank you. I don't like to think about it much anymore
(because it makes my head hurt). I'll have to look into this small DIY
Sterling engine you refer to. What would this require by way of a machine
shop? The stirling engine (ie: Flame Licker engine perhaps?)would seem to
need casted metal parts (enter Dasifier?) and mills, drills, grinders and
the like. Right? I'm not sure which engine plans I would follow and have
no machine shop to work in, to speak of. I must have missed the URL for
this boat engine in my search. Could you pass it on? 5W output sounds
perfect.

For the TURBO turbine driven fan, that's an interesting idea for sure. No
one's done that? This turbine would need to fare well, at maybe 1,200° F in
a gasifier? Tincanium!

Thanks for passing these suggestions on. Wavering yellow flares are a spur
to find my way to the blue flame stove.

- Chris Smith

>From: <kenboak@stirlingservice.freeserve.co.uk> (by way of Keith Addison)
>To: stoves@crest.org
>Subject: Re: Re: homemade forced convection woodgas campstove
>Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 23:31:29 +0900
>
>Keith & all,
>
>A small Stirling engine, cheaply made from stainless steel and
>pressed metal construction could supply a few watts to drive a fan.
>US$5.00 should cover the materials and cost of production.
>
>Such an engine would have a bore of about 25mm and a stroke of 22mm
>and produce about 5W. The body of the engine would be about 8" long
>and providing the initial stove lighting proocess supplied heat into
>the engine's hotcap then it could be up and running in about a
>minute. A friend of mine has such an engine (self built) in his
>model boat. The Stirling Engine Society in the UK has plans for this
>engine, for DIY construction.
>
>An alternative would be a turbine driven by the combustion gases
>driving a small forced draught fan mounted on the same shaft - this
>would make it a genuine turbo-stove.
>
>I used to make these as a kid from bits of old tin can and cocoa
>tins. A welding rod could provide a suitable shaft, and this
>arrangement may be more suited to local construction - and cheaper.
>
>
>Ken Boak
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________________________________
>Never pay another Internet phone bill!
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From keith at journeytoforever.org Tue Nov 27 01:53:47 2001
From: keith at journeytoforever.org (Keith Addison)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:23 2004
Subject: homemade forced convection woodgas campstove
In-Reply-To: <v04210114b82802b9fd44@[192.168.0.200]>
Message-ID: <v04210104b828e92eeb88@[192.168.0.200]>

> I guess I'm not sure what all the fuss is about re: forced draft
>for stoves. Even the fairly crude IDD coffee can stoves I've made thus
>far work extremely well without forced draft -- in fact, the only real
>problem I've had is *limiting* the primary air, not providing more of
>it. I found I needed more secondary air, but that was easily solved by
>simply making bigger holes.
> I can see a use for forced draft in bigger, heating stoves and
>boilers, but in a campstove? The very small amount of dry twigs you need
>to cook a meal can always be gathered ahead of time and carried with you
>in case of rain (and, at least in the areas where I camp, can even be
>gathered in the rain from the lower, dead branches of evergreens).
>
>--
>Harmon Seaver
>CyberShamanix
>http://www.cybershamanix.com

Fine for camping, not fine for indoors. This is what Paul said:

> >I've been lurking and learning from you stove pro's. I
>look forward to, sooner than later, building a homemade forced convection wood
>gas campstove (the Ultimate!) -

>Chris,
>
>This IS what is needed. Campstove will translate into household
>stove for the poor.
>
>I have seen Tom Reed's TURBO stove in operation. It is FORCED
>convection. >Disadvantages of needing a motorized blower and
>batteries (small but too costly for the >very poor).

For Third World use.

Keith Addison

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From tombreed at home.com Tue Nov 27 07:21:06 2001
From: tombreed at home.com (Thomas Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:23 2004
Subject: Fw: CO detection with Lambda meter..
Message-ID: <004c01c1773d$ee18d600$18e5b618@lakwod3.co.home.com>

> Dear Carl and All:
>
> Nice idea to use Lambda meter as CO detector, but I believe that the
Lambda sensor re-equilibrates the input
> gases at about 800C, and if there was any O2 present it would take the CO
to
> CO2 and not show.
>
> TOM REED
>
>
> Dr. Thomas Reed
> The Biomass Energy Foundation
> 1810 Smith Rd., Golden, CO 80401
> 303 278 0558;
> tombreed@home.com; www.woodgas.com
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Carl Carley (EMP)" <Carl.Carley@eml.ericsson.se>
> To: <stoves@crest.org>
> Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 8:14 AM
> Subject: RE: CO detection
>
>
> > Can CO be determined using a Lambda sensor?
> > A while back on the gas list Lambda probes were discussed. Using second
> hand automotive lambda sensors hooked up to a simple Lambda amplifier
giving
> an indication of emissions.
> > Output from this amplifier could drive say an LED bar graph, these LED's
> suitably buffered could control air flow, giving you a closed loop
feedback
> system, self regulating.
> > Just a thought.
> > Carl
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: elk [mailto:elk@wananchi.com]
> > Sent: 25 November 2001 15:07
> > To: stoves@crest.org
> > Subject: Re: CO detection
> >
> >
> > Tami;
> >
> > My idea of 'Affordable' would be something under $100, but if nothing
that
> > cheap is available so be it. We need to determine what data we can
> > realistically collect and what we can learn from the results.
> >
> > Your observations on response time for some of the commercially
available
> > units is well taken. This is the sort of info we need to start selecting
> the
> > best option. If the price is high- so be it.... at least we can start
the
> > ball rolling with some specific goals.
> >
> > As most, if not all of the list members are interested in stoves, they
> MUST
> > be interested in stove emissions. We can learn a lot about toxicity and
> > efficiency by measuring CO. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't CO the
> single
> > most informative emission to measure? Particulates may vie for the first
> > place here- but I reckon that something you can see can also be assessed
> > (and detected) easily enough.
> >
> > Just think of the data we could accumulate if, say, 50 of our list
members
> > had CO meters and used them in a fashion that provided reliable
> comparative
> > data on the stoves we are most interested in.
> >
> > I think it's a goal worth pursuing & I bet we could find funding to
obtain
> &
> > distribute the meters easily enough.
> >
> > I look forward to your paper on this. In the meantime..... what CAN we
> > determine about a stove if we have a good CO meter (and maybe a
> thermometer)
> > at hand?
> >
> > rgds;
> >
> > elk
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------
> > Elsen L.Karstad, Nairobi Kenya
> > elk@wananchi.com
> > http://www.chardust.com/
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Tami Bond <Tami.Bond@noaa.gov>
> > To: <stoves@crest.org>
> > Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2001 6:58 AM
> > Subject: Re: CO detection
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Stovers,
> > >
> > > > We've talked and talked about CO metering on this list, but none
> > > > of our technically-inclined members have come up with a workable
> > > > and affordable instrument design yet.
> > >
> > > What's 'affordable'? There are at least a couple of CO devices on the
> > > market in the 250-300 USD range. There are combustion analyzers for
> > > under 1000 USD that will measure CO, CO2. (Bacharach is the most
> > > famous, I think-- often used in gas-furnace service, for example--
> > > www.bacharach-inc.com).
> > >
> > > Is that too much? What kind of price ought we to target?
> > >
> > > Trouble with the cheap devices is the response time is slow (~10
> > > minutes) and if your burn is changing rapidly you might miss high and
> > > low spots. That may not matter if you are measuring IAQ. I'm of the
> > > opinion that real-time monitoring is needed, though.
> > >
> > > What do we need to measure? What species, response times, ranges? I am
> > > trying to organize thoughts on this, and started writing something for
> > > circulation that I should've finished a couple of weeks ago. Then I
got
> > > bogged down by explaining procedures from USEPA vs procedures that are
> > > reproducible by our 'real' clients-- that is, people without money.
But
> > > the paper is still in the works, I promise!
> > >
> > > Tami
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -
> > > Stoves List Archives and Website:
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> > > http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
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> > >
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> > >
> > > For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
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> > >
> > >
> >
> >
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> >
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> >
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> >
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> >
>

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From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Tue Nov 27 07:28:43 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:23 2004
Subject: homemade forced convection woodgas campstove
In-Reply-To: <v04210114b82802b9fd44@[192.168.0.200]>
Message-ID: <3C0386D7.6D66B4C7@cybershamanix.com>

Keith Addison wrote:

> Fine for camping, not fine for indoors.

Have you looked at the Reed/Larson IDD stove? I can't see what forced draft
is going to do to make this any cleaner burning. My latest version gets a pretty
nice blue flame. It's essentially smokeless, except for initial startup. A forced
draft isn't going to do anything to improve this -- or am I missing something
here?
I can see some design work needed for indoor use which would add a chimney to
the outside -- but that would also be true of any forced draft design.

(snip)

>
> For Third World use.
>

Well, for 3rd World, it's also going to have to be either very simple, so that
it can be easily manufactured by local users on site with cheap, easily obtainable
components. Which would preclude, I'd think, anything with batteries, electric
motors, stirling engines, etc.
Or it's going to have to be very cheap to make here and ship in vast
quantities to be given away/sold for cost -- and I don't know if that's going to
be possible even with as simple as design as the tin can IDD stove. Or desirable
-- technology transfer is not always a straightforward thing, as I'm sure you
know. "Give a man a fish" vs. "teach him to fish", etc.
I can see the possibility of improving the IDD stove (the afore mentioned
chimney, for one) which might be might be effective and fairly simple to
implement. My next model will attempt to preheat both primary and secondary air by
putting the Reed/Larson IDD stove into another slightly larger can so the air has
to come down from the top, along the outside of the IDD stove to reach the primary
draft opening in the bottom, and, of course, the secondary air inlets above the
fuel bed.
And maybe this "outside" can would also facilitate the adding of a chimney.
Think of setting the whole IDD stove inside a 10L drum (if such a think exists,
I'm thinking of the cooking oil containers sent by aid agencies) -- but OTOH,
perhaps this also is becoming much too complicated. How are you going to get 3rd
Worlders to adopt chimneys when they have no stove pipe?

 

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

 

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From tombreed at home.com Tue Nov 27 07:30:10 2001
From: tombreed at home.com (Thomas Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:23 2004
Subject: Urban vs Rural Poor
In-Reply-To: <v04210114b82802b9fd44@[192.168.0.200]>
Message-ID: <01c301c1773f$2f06bbe0$18e5b618@lakwod3.co.home.com>

Dear Keith:

You say batteries are too expensive for the World's poor.

There is certainly the VERY poor, mostly rural - maybe a billion of them.

However, there is also the urban poor who have moved to the city in an
attempt to better themselves - and are finding themselves caught in the vice
of rising conventional fuel prices - electricity, propane, kerosene or
charcoal. They are used to paying higher prices than we do in the US for
their cooking energy. A low cost indoor cooking system would definitely
help them.

Does anyone have an idea of the ratio of Rural/Urban poor?

TOM REED BEF STOVEWORKS

Dr. Thomas Reed
The Biomass Energy Foundation
1810 Smith Rd., Golden, CO 80401
303 278 0558;
tombreed@home.com; www.woodgas.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Keith Addison" <keith@journeytoforever.org>
To: <stoves@crest.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2001 12:04 AM
Subject: Re: homemade forced convection woodgas campstove

> > I guess I'm not sure what all the fuss is about re: forced draft
> >for stoves. Even the fairly crude IDD coffee can stoves I've made thus
> >far work extremely well without forced draft -- in fact, the only real
> >problem I've had is *limiting* the primary air, not providing more of
> >it. I found I needed more secondary air, but that was easily solved by
> >simply making bigger holes.
> > I can see a use for forced draft in bigger, heating stoves and
> >boilers, but in a campstove? The very small amount of dry twigs you need
> >to cook a meal can always be gathered ahead of time and carried with you
> >in case of rain (and, at least in the areas where I camp, can even be
> >gathered in the rain from the lower, dead branches of evergreens).
> >
> >--
> >Harmon Seaver
> >CyberShamanix
> >http://www.cybershamanix.com
>
>
> Fine for camping, not fine for indoors. This is what Paul said:
>
> > >I've been lurking and learning from you stove pro's. I
> >look forward to, sooner than later, building a homemade forced convection
wood
> >gas campstove (the Ultimate!) -
>
> >Chris,
> >
> >This IS what is needed. Campstove will translate into household
> >stove for the poor.
> >
> >I have seen Tom Reed's TURBO stove in operation. It is FORCED
> >convection. >Disadvantages of needing a motorized blower and
> >batteries (small but too costly for the >very poor).
>
> For Third World use.
>
> Keith Addison
>
>
> -
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From hotspringfreak at hotmail.com Tue Nov 27 08:34:58 2001
From: hotspringfreak at hotmail.com (Chris Smith)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:23 2004
Subject: homemade forced convection woodgas campstove
Message-ID: <F256dJyPdBNZ24ggtRv00015db5@hotmail.com>

 

Harmon,

Would you mind sharing the configuration of that stove with us?
Idiosyncrasies, tips and such.

Thanks,
Chris Smith

 

>From: Harmon Seaver <hseaver@cybershamanix.com>
>To: Keith Addison <keith@journeytoforever.org>
>CC: stoves@crest.org
>Subject: Re: homemade forced convection woodgas campstove
>Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 06:28:11 -0600
>
>Keith Addison wrote:
>
> > Fine for camping, not fine for indoors.
>
> Have you looked at the Reed/Larson IDD stove? I can't see what forced
>draft
>is going to do to make this any cleaner burning. My latest version gets a
>pretty
>nice blue flame. It's essentially smokeless, except for initial startup. A
>forced
>draft isn't going to do anything to improve this -- or am I missing
>something
>here?
> I can see some design work needed for indoor use which would add a
>chimney to
>the outside -- but that would also be true of any forced draft design.
>
>(snip)
>
> >
> > For Third World use.
> >
>
> Well, for 3rd World, it's also going to have to be either very simple,
>so that
>it can be easily manufactured by local users on site with cheap, easily
>obtainable
>components. Which would preclude, I'd think, anything with batteries,
>electric
>motors, stirling engines, etc.
> Or it's going to have to be very cheap to make here and ship in vast
>quantities to be given away/sold for cost -- and I don't know if that's
>going to
>be possible even with as simple as design as the tin can IDD stove. Or
>desirable
>-- technology transfer is not always a straightforward thing, as I'm sure
>you
>know. "Give a man a fish" vs. "teach him to fish", etc.
> I can see the possibility of improving the IDD stove (the afore
>mentioned
>chimney, for one) which might be might be effective and fairly simple to
>implement. My next model will attempt to preheat both primary and secondary
>air by
>putting the Reed/Larson IDD stove into another slightly larger can so the
>air has
>to come down from the top, along the outside of the IDD stove to reach the
>primary
>draft opening in the bottom, and, of course, the secondary air inlets above
>the
>fuel bed.
> And maybe this "outside" can would also facilitate the adding of a
>chimney.
>Think of setting the whole IDD stove inside a 10L drum (if such a think
>exists,
>I'm thinking of the cooking oil containers sent by aid agencies) -- but
>OTOH,
>perhaps this also is becoming much too complicated. How are you going to
>get 3rd
>Worlders to adopt chimneys when they have no stove pipe?
>
>
>
>--
>Harmon Seaver
>CyberShamanix
>http://www.cybershamanix.com
>
>
>
>-
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>-
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>
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From emma at george.as Tue Nov 27 08:39:25 2001
From: emma at george.as (emma@george.as)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:24 2004
Subject: testing lorena stoves
Message-ID: <20011127133920.10891.qmail@www2.nameplanet.com>

Hi,
I'm new to this list (and this subject), and I see I'm a bit out of my
league. However:

I'm down in Uganda and I've been asked to test the efficiency / savings of some
household lorena and Dembe (unicef) woodstoves for a local NGO. I presume
similar tests have been done a thousand times before, and I know there are
standard water-boiling and meal-cooking tests. If anyone can direct me to these
proceedures/ past reports/ any other info I should be aware of, I'd really
appreciate it.

Everyone seems to be quoting a figure of 50% savings compared to an open
woodfire for these stoves, without any research to back it up- that's why they
want to test them now. But it might turn out to be unnecessary if someone has
already done this somewhere.

thanks,
Emma

--
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From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Tue Nov 27 09:25:42 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:24 2004
Subject: homemade forced convection woodgas campstove
In-Reply-To: <F256dJyPdBNZ24ggtRv00015db5@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3C03A23D.FF1196EB@cybershamanix.com>

Check out the Reed/Larson IDD stove at :

http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/T1.htm

But also look at all neat designs at:

http://journeytoforever.org/at_woodfire.html

I'm not denying that the forced draft designs such as the Turbo
Stove aren't a neat idea, but I have an awfully hard time seeing their
application in the 3rd world, but maybe I'm mistaken. Tom's question
this morning about rural vs. city poor, and various levels of poverty,
etc. is appropriate.
OTOH, I'm mostly interested in the KISS approach. We lived totally
off-grid for 18 years, with wood heat and wood cookstoves, and I've
spent so much time trying to fix broken stuff that it's not funny.
And it would not be funny at all to be way out in the wilderness on
the year's big, long awaited camping trip, having canoed and portaged
ourselves 20 miles back into the bush, when the little fan motor on my
spiffy forced draft stove decided to bite the dust. I can just hear my
wife now ---

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

 

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From owen at africaonline.co.ke Tue Nov 27 09:47:37 2001
From: owen at africaonline.co.ke (Matthew Owen)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:24 2004
Subject: testing lorena stoves
In-Reply-To: <20011127133920.10891.qmail@www2.nameplanet.com>
Message-ID: <064001c17752$5d0c5f00$2941083e@oemcomputer>

Emma,

A good person to talk to about stoves in East Africa is Stephen Gitonga of
Intermediate Technology Development Group in Nairobi (gitonga@itdg.or.ke).
He's a member of this list and will probably answer you himself.

Stephen and I worked together in Uganda on many occasions and came across
both of the stoves you mention. Beware of promoters who claim a 50%
efficiency improvement over the 3-stone fire. These are largely theoretical
claims that are not borne out in actual use. In our experience a properly
used 3-stone fire can achieve about 20% efficiency, meaning that 20% of the
energy released from the cooking fuel enters the contents of the pot. A
well-made mud-stove of the Unicef or Lorena type might achieve 25%
efficiency, which represents a 25% improvement. Bear in mind however that
both the Unicef and Lorena type demand expertise and materials (e.g. the
wooden mould for the Unicef or bricks and a chimney for the Lorena).
Personally I'd go for a user-build single pot mud-stove made from clayey
soil and sand rather than these more complicated alternatives.

We have found that the biggest determinant of efficiency is often not the
stove, which becomes an obsession of promoters and beneficiaries alike
haggling over percentage savings, but the prevailing conditions of energy
availability (or lack thereof). If energy is scarce then people will cook
efficiently and take full advantage of whatever hardware is available to
them. If energy is cheap or abundant then they will continue to cook
inefficiently, regardless of the stove hardware. Imagine an NGO worker
building a Lorena stove in your kitchen and then you stuff the firebox full
of logs. It happens more often than we might imagine.

In terms of specific stove tests, you should get some ideas from members of
the list. The way I usually do it is to take a known weight of air dry
firewood and see how much water it can boil. Assuming that the wood has an
energy content of 3,800 kcal per kg and knowing that it requires 1 kcal to
raise 1 litre of water through 1 deg. C, you can do the calculations and
come to a stove efficiency. If, for example, you use 0.5 kg of dry firewood
to bring 5 litres of water from ambient temp (20 deg. C?) to Ugandan boiling
temperature (98 deg. C?), then you have a 21% stove efficiency. But as I
have said, achieveing this type of efficiency will demand that the user
replicates your test. They may not be inclined to do this if they value ease
of cooking over energy conservation.

Good luck!

Matthew Owen
Chardust Ltd.
P.O. Box 24371
Nairobi
Kenya

----- Original Message -----
From: <emma@george.as>
To: <stoves@crest.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2001 4:39 PM
Subject: testing lorena stoves

> Hi,
> I'm new to this list (and this subject), and I see I'm a bit out of my
> league. However:
>
> I'm down in Uganda and I've been asked to test the efficiency / savings of
some
> household lorena and Dembe (unicef) woodstoves for a local NGO. I presume
> similar tests have been done a thousand times before, and I know there are
> standard water-boiling and meal-cooking tests. If anyone can direct me to
these
> proceedures/ past reports/ any other info I should be aware of, I'd really
> appreciate it.
>
> Everyone seems to be quoting a figure of 50% savings compared to an open
> woodfire for these stoves, without any research to back it up- that's why
they
> want to test them now. But it might turn out to be unnecessary if someone
has
> already done this somewhere.
>
> thanks,
> Emma
>
> --
> Get your firstname@lastname email for FREE at http://Nameplanet.com/?su
>
> -
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From ronallarson at qwest.net Tue Nov 27 10:46:14 2001
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:24 2004
Subject: Forwarding Overend on CO Monitor
Message-ID: <009001c1775a$edc42020$edf76641@computer>

Ralph - thanks for the input.

Stovers:
I should also point out that I have talked to others at NREL who are
working on low-cost monitor designs - for more gases than CO.

Ron

----- Original Message -----
From: Overend, Ralph <Ralph_Overend@nrel.gov>
To: 'Ron Larson' <ronallarson@qwest.net>
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 11:54 AM
Subject: I tried to put this on the stoves list in response to Harmon

> Ron can you post this if you think it is useful.
>
> At NREL in the Thermal Conversion Users Facility and off-site in Vermont
we
> use a little personal CO monitor that will usefully go up to around 500
pmm
> - it alarms at around 35 ppm. It is based on an electrochemical cell with
a
> LCD readout. The electrochemical cell is depleted by high exposures to CO,
> and lasta about 1 year before it has to be renewed.
>
> We get them from: Davis Instruments - Phone 1-800-368-2516
>
> Personal Gas Monitor for Carbon Monoxide: Model # AQ71451 Cost $ 445.00
>
>

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From keith at journeytoforever.org Tue Nov 27 12:58:06 2001
From: keith at journeytoforever.org (Keith Addison)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:24 2004
Subject: Urban vs Rural Poor
In-Reply-To: <v04210114b82802b9fd44@[192.168.0.200]>
Message-ID: <v04210108b829443750b7@[192.168.0.200]>

Dear Tom

>Dear Keith:
>
>You say batteries are too expensive for the World's poor.

No, Paul said that. Actually he said "very poor".

>There is certainly the VERY poor, mostly rural - maybe a billion of them.

Yes, they're the ones. They burn a lot of wood and suffer a lot of pollution.

>However, there is also the urban poor who have moved to the city in an
>attempt to better themselves - and are finding themselves caught in the vice
>of rising conventional fuel prices - electricity, propane, kerosene or
>charcoal. They are used to paying higher prices than we do in the US for
>their cooking energy. A low cost indoor cooking system would definitely
>help them.

Definitely. And your Turbo's a fine candidate. Still, if it proves
possible at all, and the cost feasible, a self-contained power supply
would make it even cheaper to run, for both groups, and the fewer
batteries the better, IMO. Our focus is mainly on rural communities,
where the need for batteries could often prove a barrier.

>Does anyone have an idea of the ratio of Rural/Urban poor?

I think it's about the same, with the urban sector increasing. The
Third World urban population is forecast to increase very fast, and
the way things are I guess the same therefore applies to the urban
poor.

Regards

Keith

>TOM REED BEF STOVEWORKS
>
> Dr. Thomas Reed
> The Biomass Energy Foundation
> 1810 Smith Rd., Golden, CO 80401
>303 278 0558;
>tombreed@home.com; www.woodgas.com
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Keith Addison" <keith@journeytoforever.org>
>To: <stoves@crest.org>
>Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2001 12:04 AM
>Subject: Re: homemade forced convection woodgas campstove
>
>
> > > I guess I'm not sure what all the fuss is about re: forced draft
> > >for stoves. Even the fairly crude IDD coffee can stoves I've made thus
> > >far work extremely well without forced draft -- in fact, the only real
> > >problem I've had is *limiting* the primary air, not providing more of
> > >it. I found I needed more secondary air, but that was easily solved by
> > >simply making bigger holes.
> > > I can see a use for forced draft in bigger, heating stoves and
> > >boilers, but in a campstove? The very small amount of dry twigs you need
> > >to cook a meal can always be gathered ahead of time and carried with you
> > >in case of rain (and, at least in the areas where I camp, can even be
> > >gathered in the rain from the lower, dead branches of evergreens).
> > >
> > >--
> > >Harmon Seaver
> > >CyberShamanix
> > >http://www.cybershamanix.com
> >
> >
> > Fine for camping, not fine for indoors. This is what Paul said:
> >
> > > >I've been lurking and learning from you stove pro's. I
> > >look forward to, sooner than later, building a homemade forced convection
>wood
> > >gas campstove (the Ultimate!) -
> >
> > >Chris,
> > >
> > >This IS what is needed. Campstove will translate into household
> > >stove for the poor.
> > >
> > >I have seen Tom Reed's TURBO stove in operation. It is FORCED
> > >convection. >Disadvantages of needing a motorized blower and
> > >batteries (small but too costly for the >very poor).
> >
> > For Third World use.
> >
> > Keith Addison

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From tami.bond at noaa.gov Tue Nov 27 13:32:12 2001
From: tami.bond at noaa.gov (Tami Bond)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:24 2004
Subject: Questions on CO monitoring
In-Reply-To: <009001c1775a$edc42020$edf76641@computer>
Message-ID: <3C03DC7E.EFC8662E@noaa.gov>

Stovers,

Web site for $75 CO monitor is below. I sent it to Elk yesterday, but
didn't notice that it went only to him. I couldn't find the range or
response time of this one. But the readout has only three digits, so it
doesn't go higher than 999 ppm, I guess.

http://www.aeromedix.com/products/codetect/codetect.html

I've seen the $220 CO monitor that Harmon posted yesterday. That is the
one with 10-minute response time. One advantage is its ability to record
the data.

What are CO ranges from your burning? 2000 ppm is high for a gas furnace
but not for an automobile.

People who are actually making and measuring stoves: What do YOU think
about need for real-time measurements and quick response times? Do you
think the burning is steady enough that 10-minute response is good
enough?

Ron: I would be happy to hear more about your contacts at NREL who are
working on low-cost monitors.

Best,

Tami

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From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Tue Nov 27 13:47:01 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:24 2004
Subject: Questions on CO monitoring
In-Reply-To: <009001c1775a$edc42020$edf76641@computer>
Message-ID: <3C03DF81.16DFCAEE@cybershamanix.com>

Tami Bond wrote:

(snip)

> I've seen the $220 CO monitor that Harmon posted yesterday. That is the
> one with 10-minute response time. One advantage is its ability to record
> the data.
>

I haven't seen this in action, but the website says:

"The logger’s sampling rate is user-selectable from 1/2 second up to 9
hours."

So I was assuming that it had a 1/2 second response time -- is that not
correct? Still, this unit is not ideal. It's $220, plus $95 for the
software and cable to use with it, so still a bit pricey. Especially when I
see CO2 sensors which are much, much cheaper. Seems a bit strange that CO
would be that much harder to detect than CO2, but what do I know?

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

 

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From psanders at ilstu.edu Tue Nov 27 13:52:53 2001
From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:24 2004
Subject: Urban vs Rural Poor
In-Reply-To: <01c301c1773f$2f06bbe0$18e5b618@lakwod3.co.home.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20011127124039.01743da0@mail.ilstu.edu>

Stovers,

To clarify some comments:

1. I am EXTREMELY IMPRESSED with the fire power of Tom Reed's Turbo
stove. I did not make that clear earlier. There was substantial control
over the flames, including having a very strong fire with shooting flames.

2. I prefer the natural convection (because of simplicity and low cost),
but I was raising the question of whether SOME forced air (maybe a peak
cooking times or ignition times) might be beneficial.

3. In Mozambique, the amount of URBAN cooking on charcoal is very high, so
I approach the stove problem as being BOTH for urban and rural
needs. There are so many people in each of the categories.

4. Perhaps we should acknowledge the need ("market") for stoves for
different income levels, that is, for the "super-simple and low-cost"
model(s) and for the "modest-income and have-some-features" stove
model(s). Choice is important to the poor people, as it is to the affluent
holiday shoppers in my local shopping mall. I am reminded of one of my
earliest messages where I listed about a dozen different "cooking" devices
for the modern affluent household.

Paul
Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders

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From das at eagle-access.net Tue Nov 27 19:54:18 2001
From: das at eagle-access.net (Das)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:24 2004
Subject: CO detection
Message-ID: <200111280056.fAS0uBj28475@saturn.eagle-access.net>

Dilution Method for CO Measurement Inside STOVES

In response to the CO monitoring question I am familiar with the Nighthawk
CO detector which provides digital readout 35 to 999 ppm with a 2.5 minute
refresh rate. It is available inexpensively ($40 - 60) at most hardware
and building supply stores.
This can be rigged using an air tight enclosure around the detector, a
small vacuum pump ( 1 cfm compressor from a dead refrigerator free) and a
pair of floating ball flow meters ($10 to $20 new) to adjust for a 1000:1
dilution ratio. This would give a round number readout of 10 X CO % for
3.5 to 99.9 % CO. This is good for fuel gas measurement. All this for
under $100 in parts. This is a lot better than the gas analyzer industry
standard offer of $2000 per gas.

Environmental CO measurement around STOVES
I have always appreciated a CO detector in the working environment around
gasifier and combustion equipment.
This inexpensive Nighthawk CO detector indication is blanked out to
display zero CO for all levels below 35 ppm per Underwriters Laboratory
requirements to reduce the number of fire department calls. (Full story is
available at http://www.avweb.com/articles/codetect.html#comparison). This
casts a pall of suspicion on those zero CO readings at the end of indoor
turbo stove runs.

Private airplane pilots have found an inexpensive faster reading lower
threshold digital readout CO detector for cockpit have prevailed on a CO
detector manufacturer to produce a low level CO detector the AIM Model 935
Low-Level CO Monitor www.Aeromedix.com or via a 24-hour toll-free
telephone number: 888-362-7123.

 

A. Das
Original Sources/Biomass Energy Foundation
Box 7137, Boulder, CO 80306
das@eagle-access.net

----------
> From: Tami Bond <Tami.Bond@noaa.gov>
> To: stoves@crest.org
> Subject: Re: CO detection
> Date: Friday, November 23, 2001 8:58 PM
>
>
> Stovers,
>
> > We've talked and talked about CO metering on this list, but none
> > of our technically-inclined members have come up with a workable
> > and affordable instrument design yet.
>
> What's 'affordable'? There are at least a couple of CO devices on the
> market in the 250-300 USD range. There are combustion analyzers for
> under 1000 USD that will measure CO, CO2. (Bacharach is the most
> famous, I think-- often used in gas-furnace service, for example--
> www.bacharach-inc.com).
>
> Is that too much? What kind of price ought we to target?
>
> Trouble with the cheap devices is the response time is slow (~10
> minutes) and if your burn is changing rapidly you might miss high and
> low spots. That may not matter if you are measuring IAQ. I'm of the
> opinion that real-time monitoring is needed, though.
>
> What do we need to measure? What species, response times, ranges? I am
> trying to organize thoughts on this, and started writing something for
> circulation that I should've finished a couple of weeks ago. Then I got
> bogged down by explaining procedures from USEPA vs procedures that are
> reproducible by our 'real' clients-- that is, people without money. But
> the paper is still in the works, I promise!
>
> Tami
>
>
>
> -
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>
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From ronallarson at qwest.net Tue Nov 27 20:04:17 2001
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:24 2004
Subject: Following up on Harmon Seaver findings
Message-ID: <05ab01c177a8$246fc3c0$edf76641@computer>

 

Stovers:

1.    I am really having a tough time
keeping up with the dialog right now - a lot of very good material coming
fast. 

2.   I am also (limiting to things that
have taken more than a few hours this last week; no order):

    a)  working on renewable
energy (especially Net Metering) legislation for Colorado, 
b)  helping a local College
team raise money for something called the "Solar Decathlon" (see <A
href="http://solar.colorado.edu">http://solar.colorado.edu);
c) fighting local developers who
are (illegally) stopping the application of solar water and PV; 

    d) trying to design my own new
proposed solar home
e) working on energy
efficiency/solar options for our church
f)  helping to get a new
system started for energy education in the state and to implement new projects
using pollution penalties
g) helping organize a state-wide
energy conference next June
h) responding to a local think
tank that has decided to attack wind power.

I list these to apologize for not getting much into
recent list discussions - just that other topics have had to come first. 
Anyone with funds is especially welcome to respond on this list.

3.  There has been a lot of good material
recently on what Tom Reed calls the IDD - but that I prefer to call a
Charcoal-Making Stove.  When I first made one about six years ago - after
many failures, the main excitement for me was that it did what I wanted - it
made charcoal.   I still think this should be a major focus of this
list - and I don't see enough on that virtue.  There have been some good
suggestions on how to burn charcoal in situ - but I urge everyone to remember
that ordinary charcoal making is very harmful to the
environment. (and charcoal making is obviously of little interest in
the US and similar countries.) I tend to agree with those who have been saying
that forced convection is too complicated and expensive for those places where
charcoal consumption is high - but hope we don't drop that subject. I am still
hoping that either wound-up springs or falling weights will be able to work -
and haven't seen them on the list of options recently.

4.  Today,  Harmon Seaver sent in a
suggestion to look at the site <A
href="http://journeytoforever.org/at_woodfire.html">http://journeytoforever.org/at_woodfire.html   
I hadn't been there recently and found a lot of what is either new and valuable
or I missed it earlier.  It is operated by regular "stoves" list
contributor Keith Addison.

a)  Harmon - you are doing
a great job getting us to good new information - please keep it up.

b)  Keith - Your site is
great - please update us on your organization's present status and future
plans.  And please keep sending in your observations on stoves.  You
obviously are well versed.

5.  One of the first items at Keith's site was
: <A href="http://www.rwedp.org/fd44.html"
target=_blank>http://www.rwedp.org/fd44.html   This is a
lengthy report by Professor Sharma at Punjab University.  I have only
skimmed it,  but it looks like an excellent review of the world of
stoves.  However, I am missing masses of Greek symbols because the original
was in Word Perfect.  Any recommendations from anyone on how to retrieve
these?  For those with a technical bent, I think this might be quite a good
overview-lots of equations.  Can anyone report on how it has been received
elsewhere?  (From 1993, so there will be nothing on charcoal-making stoves,
etc)
6.  A few references later on Keith
recommended SuperShioshio  - <A
href="http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~we2a-sod/index.htm" target=_blank>h<A
href="http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~we2a-sod/index.htm"
target=_blank>ttp://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~we2a-sod/index.htm

Since we have had so much
discussion recently on camping stoves I stayed for awhile at this site - which
deals only with liquid and gaseous fuel type camping stoves (more than 200
shown).  I have these observations: 
a)  The only data was for
time to reach a boil for one liter (as low as about 3 minutes) [For others
skilled in camp stoves - doesn't this community care about the amount of fuel
needed to achieve a boil?]. 
b) None of the stoves seemed to
employ the "sleeve" that we have talked about for improving efficiency (and
presumably speed). 
Any idea why insulating sleeves would not have
found there way to this market?
c) I have written to Shioshio (a
Physician doing this as a hobby) - but not yet heard back

7.  I have recently finished reading a book on
large ceramic wood-burning stoves and will report soon.  A few lessons for
stoves.

Regards Ron

From english at adan.kingston.net Tue Nov 27 21:48:18 2001
From: english at adan.kingston.net (*.English)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:24 2004
Subject: CO detection
In-Reply-To: <200111280056.fAS0uBj28475@saturn.eagle-access.net>
Message-ID: <200111280248.fAS2mCq29023@adan.kingston.net>

Hello Das,

Good ideas!
However I think we need to take it a little farther. Your method will
sample gases in a chimney, just under a pot or in a vent hood
exhaust, but it does not account for excess air dilution through the
stove. Without measuring O2 , CO2 or total mass flow we can't fairly
compare combustion quality.

So I supose the stove testing operation could be in a box on a
scale with a fixed air change rate supplied by a blower that supplies
not less than perhaps twice the air requirements of the stove at
maximum power. If the air flow paterns don't bias stove function,
would this go far enough to allow for valid rough comparisons?

Alex English

 

> Dilution Method for CO Measurement Inside STOVES
>
> In response to the CO monitoring question I am familiar with the Nighthawk
> CO detector which provides digital readout 35 to 999 ppm with a 2.5 minute
> refresh rate. It is available inexpensively ($40 - 60) at most hardware
> and building supply stores.
> This can be rigged using an air tight enclosure around the detector, a
> small vacuum pump ( 1 cfm compressor from a dead refrigerator free) and a
> pair of floating ball flow meters ($10 to $20 new) to adjust for a 1000:1
> dilution ratio. This would give a round number readout of 10 X CO % for
> 3.5 to 99.9 % CO. This is good for fuel gas measurement. All this for
> under $100 in parts. This is a lot better than the gas analyzer industry
> standard offer of $2000 per gas.
>
> Environmental CO measurement around STOVES
> I have always appreciated a CO detector in the working environment around
> gasifier and combustion equipment.
> This inexpensive Nighthawk CO detector indication is blanked out to
> display zero CO for all levels below 35 ppm per Underwriters Laboratory
> requirements to reduce the number of fire department calls. (Full story is
> available at http://www.avweb.com/articles/codetect.html#comparison). This
> casts a pall of suspicion on those zero CO readings at the end of indoor
> turbo stove runs.
>
> Private airplane pilots have found an inexpensive faster reading lower
> threshold digital readout CO detector for cockpit have prevailed on a CO
> detector manufacturer to produce a low level CO detector the AIM Model 935
> Low-Level CO Monitor www.Aeromedix.com or via a 24-hour toll-free
> telephone number: 888-362-7123.
>
>
>
> A. Das
> Original Sources/Biomass Energy Foundation
> Box 7137, Boulder, CO 80306
> das@eagle-access.net
>
> ----------
> > From: Tami Bond <Tami.Bond@noaa.gov>
> > To: stoves@crest.org
> > Subject: Re: CO detection
> > Date: Friday, November 23, 2001 8:58 PM
> >
> >
> > Stovers,
> >
> > > We've talked and talked about CO metering on this list, but none
> > > of our technically-inclined members have come up with a workable
> > > and affordable instrument design yet.
> >
> > What's 'affordable'? There are at least a couple of CO devices on the
> > market in the 250-300 USD range. There are combustion analyzers for
> > under 1000 USD that will measure CO, CO2. (Bacharach is the most
> > famous, I think-- often used in gas-furnace service, for example--
> > www.bacharach-inc.com).
> >
> > Is that too much? What kind of price ought we to target?
> >
> > Trouble with the cheap devices is the response time is slow (~10
> > minutes) and if your burn is changing rapidly you might miss high and
> > low spots. That may not matter if you are measuring IAQ. I'm of the
> > opinion that real-time monitoring is needed, though.
> >
> > What do we need to measure? What species, response times, ranges? I am
> > trying to organize thoughts on this, and started writing something for
> > circulation that I should've finished a couple of weeks ago. Then I got
> > bogged down by explaining procedures from USEPA vs procedures that are
> > reproducible by our 'real' clients-- that is, people without money. But
> > the paper is still in the works, I promise!
> >
> > Tami
> >
> >
> >
> > -
> > Stoves List Archives and Website:
> > http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
> > http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
> >
> > Stoves List Moderators:
> > Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
> > Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
> > Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
> >
> > List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
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> >
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> > -
> > Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
> > http://www.bioenergy2002.org
> > http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
> > http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml
> >
> > For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
> > http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm
>
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>
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> Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
> Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
>
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>
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>
>

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From dstill at epud.net Wed Nov 28 01:33:35 2001
From: dstill at epud.net (Dean Still)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:24 2004
Subject: testing lorena stoves
Message-ID: <002301c177d8$3f741ce0$4015210c@default>

Dear Emma and Matthew,

As Matthew says, the three stone fire can be very efficient when out of the
wind and expertly operated. I agree that 20% efficiency is an accurate
estimate given these qualifications. The earthen mass of the Lorena diverts
heat that could have gone into the pot. Also the earthen walls tend to be
cold and they negatively effect combustion. If you put three pots on the
Lorena it may be that by adding together the heating of three vessels the
Lorena will be only somewhat less efficient than the best case open fire.
But if only one pot is placed on the Lorena the stove will be much less
efficient than the expertly operated open fire.

On the other hand, using a chimney removes smoke from the house, a great
health benefit. And to complicate everything, three stone fires are not
usually expertly made. A open fire wants to go out and the temptation is to
make overly large fires for ease of use. So sometimes earthen walls around a
fire help to save a small amount of fuel. Or not, because as Matthew points
out care is taken mostly as a result of necessity: when fuel becomes scarce.
Where I worked in the desert as a rule folks made very good open fires. In
that case any high mass earthen stove would score under the open fire.

When making a stove that will use less fuel than the open fire it works
better to use insulative earth mixes instead of dense mixtures of sand and
clay. Walls of insulation around the fire do two great things; they absorb
much less heat, and increase combustion temperatures making for hotter and
cleaner fires. A insulative wall around the fire which is slightly bigger
than the pot (1/4") allowing hot flue gases to scrape against the whole
surface area of the pot can result in significant fuel savings. The
insulative wall keeps sticks burning, makes the sticks easier to light,
increases draft, etc... Ken Goyer, an Aprovecho researcher, has developed a
earthen mixture that makes durable, insulative stove walls.

It is made from:

2 parts ordinary clay, like earthenware, that melts at a low temperature.
1 part clay that melts at a higher temperature to add strength.
1 part cement. This holds everything together until it is fired in the
kiln and adds more clay.
4 parts fine sifted organic matter, like sawdust. This burns out making
the ceramic light weight and provides air pockets for insulation.

The insulative earthen walls are fired in a kiln and usually are made up in
pieces that fit together and then surrounded by regular earth to make a
strong stove. (For more free information, please contact Ken Goyer at
Aprovecho.)

The testing of Lorena stoves has been done many times. Compacted sand and
clay is not a great material for stoves. Stoves made from such materials are
frequently less fuel efficient than three stone fires, depending on the care
taken in operating the stoves. Replacing dense earth with insulative ceramic
walls helps to create a stove that is much more user friendly, and saves
significant amounts of fuel.

Best,

Dean Still
apro@efn.org

 

 

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From elk at wananchi.com Wed Nov 28 01:56:43 2001
From: elk at wananchi.com (elk)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:24 2004
Subject: Questions on CO monitoring
In-Reply-To: <009001c1775a$edc42020$edf76641@computer>
Message-ID: <004d01c177da$23f63b40$6f41083e@default>

I've not yet managed to access the $75 CO meter site that Tami has found-
problems with internet connectivity at the moment- but I can comment on a
couple issues.

10 minutes in a closed-room (known volume) situation would be fine for me.
We work with what we have, and at this point ANY reliable CO measurements
would very welcome.

Obviously we would all like to saunter past a cookstove or fire and simple
wave a probe over it to record the precise CO emissions- but I rather doubt
that even the most expensive equipment will give a proper reading that way.

Which of course leads to further questions....... assuming an unlimited
budget, what would be the best portable equipment you could get for
out-of-the-lab work like this? I bet there isn't a simple answer here. We do
need a know-volume of some sort, don't we? If that's the case, then we CAN'T
be in a hurry, and a 10-minute sample time would be fine.

elk

--------------------------
Elsen L. Karstad
elk@wananchi.com
www.chardust.com
Nairobi Kenya

 

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tami Bond" <tami.bond@noaa.gov>
To: <stoves@crest.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2001 9:33 PM
Subject: Questions on CO monitoring

> Stovers,
>
> Web site for $75 CO monitor is below. I sent it to Elk yesterday, but
> didn't notice that it went only to him. I couldn't find the range or
> response time of this one. But the readout has only three digits, so it
> doesn't go higher than 999 ppm, I guess.
>
> http://www.aeromedix.com/products/codetect/codetect.html
>
> I've seen the $220 CO monitor that Harmon posted yesterday. That is the
> one with 10-minute response time. One advantage is its ability to record
> the data.
>
> What are CO ranges from your burning? 2000 ppm is high for a gas furnace
> but not for an automobile.
>
> People who are actually making and measuring stoves: What do YOU think
> about need for real-time measurements and quick response times? Do you
> think the burning is steady enough that 10-minute response is good
> enough?
>
> Ron: I would be happy to hear more about your contacts at NREL who are
> working on low-cost monitors.
>
> Best,
>
> Tami
>
> -
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From elk at wananchi.com Wed Nov 28 02:32:52 2001
From: elk at wananchi.com (elk)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:24 2004
Subject: CO detection
In-Reply-To: <200111280248.fAS2mCq29023@adan.kingston.net>
Message-ID: <00ce01c177df$33259d40$6f41083e@default>

Alex writes:

> So I suppose the stove testing operation could be in a box on a
> scale with a fixed air change rate supplied by a blower..................

What about a closed room? With enough air to run the stove properly for,
say, 10 or 15 minutes?

I use a little used office here that is about 15 cubic meters in volume.

elk

--------------------------
Elsen L. Karstad
elk@wananchi.com
www.chardust.com
Nairobi Kenya

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From elk at wananchi.com Wed Nov 28 11:10:53 2001
From: elk at wananchi.com (elk)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:24 2004
Subject: virus
Message-ID: <004a01c17826$f6408b40$8540083e@pentium333>

 

Dale Costich's e-mail to this list contained a virus. Anyone
who opened the attachment is probably infected.

I trashed his message so fast once my anti-virus alert came up
that I didn't get a chance to see which virus it was- maybe some other list
member could advise?

Hope it was (relatively) harmless.

elk


----------------------------------------------Elsen
L.Karstad, Nairobi Kenya<A
href="mailto:elk@wananchi.com">elk@wananchi.com<A
href="http://www.chardust.com/">http://www.chardust.com/


From heat-win at cwcom.net Wed Nov 28 11:42:34 2001
From: heat-win at cwcom.net (Thomas J Stubbing)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:24 2004
Subject: virus
In-Reply-To: <004a01c17826$f6408b40$8540083e@pentium333>
Message-ID: <3C0512C3.7D6F6E74@cwcom.net>

 

Dear Elk,
In the last two days I received two messages which were intercepted
by my Norton AntiVirus 2001 and a file "Unknown05b5.data" quarantined as
being unrepairable.
I don't know whether that file contained a virus or, if so, whether
it is the same  as the one you received, but like you I deleted the
quarantined files.
When I opened the messages, one from a Paul Harrison and the other from
a Phil Lingle, there was no text remaining but I replied to both telling
them what had happened without so far receiving an acknowledgment.
I hope this helps.
Regards,
Thomas J Stubbing
elk wrote:

Dale Costich's e-mail
to this list contained a virus. Anyone who opened the attachment is probably
infected. I trashed his message so fast once
my anti-virus alert came up that I didn't get a chance to see which virus
it was- maybe some other list member could advise? Hope
it was (relatively) harmless. elk  ----------------------------------------------
Elsen L.Karstad, Nairobi Kenya
elk@wananchi.com
http://www.chardust.com/  

 

 

From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Wed Nov 28 12:12:25 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:24 2004
Subject: virus
In-Reply-To: <004a01c17826$f6408b40$8540083e@pentium333>
Message-ID: <3C051AD6.2129D82C@cybershamanix.com>

I wonder if we could get the moderator to turn off attachments
sent to the list -- viruses getting propagated by mailing lists is a
major PITA, and a great many lists don't allow them anymore. Doesn't
crest have a central repository for the list that could receive files
and pictures instead? They could be just uploaded to the website area,
and viewed there, I'd think.

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

 

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From english at adan.kingston.net Wed Nov 28 13:11:08 2001
From: english at adan.kingston.net (*.English)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:24 2004
Subject: Questions on CO monitoring
Message-ID: <200111281811.fASIB1q10780@adan.kingston.net>

 

 

> People who are actually making and measuring stoves: What do YOU think
> about need for real-time measurements and quick response times? Do you
> think the burning is steady enough that 10-minute response is good
> enough?

Tami,
Where as spot measurement has been acceptable for oil and gas furnaces,
real time measurement is necessary for monitoring wood and charcoal stoves. In the
absence of intervention O2 and CO2 levels will generally vary slowly , but CO can
change astonishingly fast. This is especially true if conditions are close to optimal
where CO levels can virtually cliff by 2 or 3 orders of magnitude.

Ultimately comparisons are done on a total emissions basis on multiple test runs,
where reduced sampling frequencies could suffice. Ten minutes still seems much to
long for CO, but might be ok for CO2 and O2. However for a stove where fuel is added
during the burn or air supply adjustments are frequently made, the sampling rate would
need to be faster generally.

 

Alex English
Alex English
RR 2 Odessa, Ontario
Canada K0H 2H0
613-386-1927

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From tmiles at trmiles.com Wed Nov 28 14:28:23 2001
From: tmiles at trmiles.com (Tom Miles)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:24 2004
Subject: virus
In-Reply-To: <004a01c17826$f6408b40$8540083e@pentium333>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011128105208.020595b0@pop3.norton.antivirus>

Harmon,

There are two reasons for preventing or discouraging attachments. One is
virus protection. Another is bandwidth. Many of our list members have slow
connections. It's unfair to burden them with image or document files that
require high bandwith.

I've asked CREST to block attachments with the following extensions to
eliminate most of the virus hazards.

.vbs .shs .vba .scr .js .wsh .wse .bat .com .lnk .pif .eml .exe

In addition to the message archives CREST does have web pages for the
lists. We're in the process of migrating Alex English's Stoves compendium.
And we'll be implementing procedures for uploading files and pictures.

Regards,

Tom Miles
Bioenergy Lists Administrator

At 11:12 AM 11/28/01 -0600, Harmon Seaver wrote:
> I wonder if we could get the moderator to turn off attachments
>sent to the list -- viruses getting propagated by mailing lists is a
>major PITA, and a great many lists don't allow them anymore. Doesn't
>crest have a central repository for the list that could receive files
>and pictures instead? They could be just uploaded to the website area,
>and viewed there, I'd think.
>
>--
>Harmon Seaver
>CyberShamanix
>http://www.cybershamanix.com
>
>
>
>-
>Stoves List Archives and Website:
>http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
>http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
>
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>
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>
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>-
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>
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Thomas R Miles tmiles@trmiles.com
T R Miles, TCI Tel 503-292-0107
1470 SW Woodward Way Fax 503-292-2919
Portland, OR 97225 USA

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From keith at journeytoforever.org Wed Nov 28 14:42:00 2001
From: keith at journeytoforever.org (Keith Addison)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:24 2004
Subject: homemade forced convection woodgas campstove
Message-ID: <v0421010db82ac3c6e1fc@[192.168.0.200]>

How about this newfangled thermoelectric generator? Prolly cost an
arm and a leg though, and I suppose it'd be massive overkill anyway
for driving a stove fan... And I guess the other newfangled one that
runs off body heat to power your watch or your pacemaker would be too
puny.

Keith

MIT, ENECO Develop New Heat-to-Electricity Device

The Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) announced
yesterday the development of a new highly efficient device
for converting heat into electricity. MIT claims the device is
two times more efficient than its closest commercial
competitor, opening up new possibilities for making use of
waste heat from vehicles, industrial processes, and power
plants.

The device is based on thermionic technology, in which heat
is used to drive electrons across a vacuum gap to another
conductor, thus creating an electric current. Such devices
typically require temperatures of about 2000 degrees
Fahrenheit. The new device, developed by an MIT professor
in collaboration with ENECO, Inc., replaces the vacuum gap
with a multi-layer semiconductor to create "thermal diodes"
that operate at temperatures as low as 390 degrees Fahrenheit.
The research was presented yesterday to the fall meeting of
the Materials Research Society. See the MIT press release
at: <http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/nr/2001/electricitydevice.html>.

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From keith at journeytoforever.org Wed Nov 28 15:01:57 2001
From: keith at journeytoforever.org (Keith Addison)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:24 2004
Subject: Following up on Harmon Seaver findings
In-Reply-To: <05ab01c177a8$246fc3c0$edf76641@computer>
Message-ID: <v04210111b82af0ec7e56@[192.168.0.200]>

Hello Ron

<snip>

>3. There has been a lot of good material recently on what Tom Reed
>calls the IDD - but that I prefer to call a Charcoal-Making Stove.
>When I first made one about six years ago - after many failures, the
>main excitement for me was that it did what I wanted - it made
>charcoal. I still think this should be a major focus of this list
>- and I don't see enough on that virtue. There have been some good
>suggestions on how to burn charcoal in situ - but I urge everyone to
>remember that ordinary charcoal making is very harmful to the
>environment. (and charcoal making is obviously of little interest in
>the US and similar countries.)

Very much agree with you.

>I tend to agree with those who have been saying that forced
>convection is too complicated and expensive for those places where
>charcoal consumption is high - but hope we don't drop that subject.
>I am still hoping that either wound-up springs or falling weights
>will be able to work - and haven't seen them on the list of options
>recently.

I'm sure there must be a way, I feel it in my bones! Unfortunately I
can't manage to think it out in my head. :-(

>4. Today, Harmon Seaver sent in a suggestion to look at the site
>
><http://journeytoforever.org/at_woodfire.html>http://journeytoforever
>.org/at_woodfire.html
>
> I hadn't been there recently and found a lot of what is either
>new and valuable or I missed it earlier. It is operated by regular
>"stoves" list contributor Keith Addison.
>
> a) Harmon - you are doing a great job getting us to good new
>information - please keep it up.
>
> b) Keith - Your site is great - please update us on your
>organization's present status and future plans.

Thanks very much! I'm very glad you find it of value. Re our status
at the moment, it looks quiet, but it's not, not at all - we're
slaving away, getting a lot of things done without too much visible
effect, but that'll change all of a sudden, I expect. We should be
leaving Japan in the spring maybe, setting off on the journey proper.
Until then, we're about as occupied as you seem to be (we just work
all the time!).

>And please keep sending in your observations on stoves. You
>obviously are well versed.

Not at all, Ron, just a beginner, with a very great deal to learn,
and a big debt to this list for anything I've learnt so far - all
comes from here.

"Shadow-boxing in the dark... but I'm beginning to see the light" (maybe!).

>5. One of the first items at Keith's site was :
><http://www.rwedp.org/fd44.html>http://www.rwedp.org/fd44.html
>This is a lengthy report by Professor Sharma at Punjab University.
>I have only skimmed it, but it looks like an excellent review of
>the world of stoves. However, I am missing masses of Greek symbols
>because the original was in Word Perfect. Any recommendations from
>anyone on how to retrieve these? For those with a technical bent, I
>think this might be quite a good overview-lots of equations. Can
>anyone report on how it has been received elsewhere? (From 1993, so
>there will be nothing on charcoal-making stoves, etc)

It's a pdf, an Acrobat file, not Word Perfect. You shouldn't have had
problems, if you have Acrobat Reader (it's free, from Adobe). Maybe
you're missing a font or something?

>6. A few references later on Keith recommended SuperShioshio -
><http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~we2a-sod/index.htm>h<http://www.asahi-net
>.or.jp/~we2a-sod/index.htm>ttp://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~we2a-sod/index.h
>tm
>
> Since we have had so much discussion recently on camping stoves I
>stayed for awhile at this site - which deals only with liquid and
>gaseous fuel type camping stoves (more than 200 shown). I have
>these observations:
> a) The only data was for time to reach a boil for one liter (as
>low as about 3 minutes) [For others skilled in camp stoves - doesn't
>this community care about the amount of fuel needed to achieve a
>boil?].

Japan's a very wasteful place - like the US! I think they're a bit
more energy-efficient than the US, but they could certainly be more
efficient yet. You'd think it was obvious - massive dependence on
imported oil, and nukes, and they like their nukes less and less. But
I'm sure Shioshio will be alive to your suggestions regarding this.

> b) None of the stoves seemed to employ the "sleeve" that we have
>talked about for improving efficiency (and presumably speed).
>Any idea why insulating sleeves would not have found there way to this market?
> c) I have written to Shioshio (a Physician doing this as a
>hobby) - but not yet heard back

Excellent! You and he should have a lot to discuss. Please let us
know if anything useful comes of it.

Regards

Keith

>7. I have recently finished reading a book on large ceramic
>wood-burning stoves and will report soon. A few lessons for stoves.
>
>Regards Ron

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From Carefreeland at aol.com Wed Nov 28 23:27:31 2001
From: Carefreeland at aol.com (Carefreeland@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:25 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Energy value of charcoal
Message-ID: <9c.1713289d.2937132d@aol.com>

Hello All,
I have some questions about the energy in charcoal. I have obtained this
address from a recent RENEWABLE ENERGY NEWSLETTER
http://www.geog.umd.edu/homepage/courses/jboberg/units.htm
This is a valuable chart. It has me asking several questions.
If: charcoal has an energy content of 29.0 (MJ/kg)
and Bituminous coal has 29.3
Anthracite coal has 31.4
Coke has 28.5
Then from Tom Reed's DENSIFIED BIOMASS book
Charcoal has 31.8
From Tom Reed's HANDBOOK OF DOWNDRAFT GASIFIER ENGINE SYSTEMS
Redwood charcoal has (Max) 30.4
at 78.8%carbon
but this still lists H at 3.5% by weight and O at 13.2% by weight and
4.1% ash.
Because this is all PYROLYSIS char.
What if we could get rid of more of this O and H with a retort process as
well as using pretreatment of woody biomass to cut the ash say in half or
more?
Could we theoretically have a product that has more MJ/kg than even
anthracite?
Or Gasoline?
Could we have a product that has less Phosphorus than Coke?
Could we have a product that has almost zero Sulfur?
What energy by weight would this "new fuel" have?
This is what I aim to figure out over the next several years, any
information to add to this would be appreciated.
What is the Energy value of pure carbon? That, my friends, is MY
theoretical limit. And we're off and running,
Daniel Dimiduk
Shangri-La Research and Development Co.
Dayton Ohio USA

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From hotspringfreak at hotmail.com Thu Nov 29 05:26:23 2001
From: hotspringfreak at hotmail.com (Chris Smith)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:25 2004
Subject: homemade forced convection woodgas campstove
Message-ID: <F21748gyx0mLN47VMOn0000dd37@hotmail.com>

>From: Keith Addison <keith@journeytoforever.org>
>To: stoves@crest.org
>Subject: Re: homemade forced convection woodgas campstove
>Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 04:52:04 +0900
>
>How about this newfangled thermoelectric generator? Prolly cost an
>arm and a leg though, and I suppose it'd be massive overkill anyway
>for driving a stove fan... And I guess the other newfangled one that
>runs off body heat to power your watch or your pacemaker would be too
>puny.
>
>Keith
>
>
>MIT, ENECO Develop New Heat-to-Electricity Device

[SNIP]

See the MIT press release
>at: <http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/nr/2001/electricitydevice.html>.

Keith,

Interesting - might be able to combine solar cell panels with thermionic
diodes in an integral unit for higher efficiency. Should work even on
overcast days.

I found that the EcoFan (from a tip on this list) - a thermoelectric fan
driver for wood stoves - requires only stove contact heat to drive a small
motor/fan through application of the Peltier Effect. The motor and coupled
fan could be removed from it's position on the device and placed in the
required draught "zone" of a forced convection wood gas stove. See no
problem with this, other than lengthening wires and constructing a motor
mount for the fan. Of course, not purchasing this and building a comparable
device oneself could be cheaper. Ecofan movies (quick download):

http://www.productsforanywhere.com/gear/movies/ecofan.mpg
http://www.productsforanywhere.com/gear/movies/cf_airplus.MPG

Here's the cheapest Ecofan source I've found:

http://www.magma.ca/~barkhm5/ecofan.htm

Peltier Effect thermoelectric generation is here now, old news it would
seem, but with new application. Good timing, eh?

- Chris Smith

 

 

 

 

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From english at adan.kingston.net Thu Nov 29 07:33:14 2001
From: english at adan.kingston.net (*.English)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:25 2004
Subject: Energy value of charcoal
In-Reply-To: <9c.1713289d.2937132d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <200111291233.fATCX8q23951@adan.kingston.net>

 

> What is the Energy value of pure carbon?

32.78 MJ/kg

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