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From adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in Mon Oct 1 18:55:20 2001
From: adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in (A.D. Karve)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:08 2004
Subject: carbonisation
In-Reply-To: <14b.1d73ba2.28e9e2ea@aol.com>
Message-ID: <000801c14ace$570442e0$4750c5cb@vsnl.net.in>
Dear Daniel,
we have exchanged so many notes, that I do not know which one you are
refering to. Unfortunately, as an end-on the-month ritual, I deleted all
the
correspondence of September. What does the word "green" in your message
refer to? It reminds me of a wild berry that grows in Germany. It is red
when unripe and turns dark blue or almost black when ripe. Children are told
not to eat the red berries, because they are still "green". Are you refering
to moist material, when you say "green"? In the process of pyrolysis, the
material not only gets dry but also charred. It is wetted again in order to
make briquettes out of it, but the briquettes are dried in sunlight before
using them. I assume that would still have about 10% moisture in them.
A.D.Karve
----- Original Message -----
From: <Carefreeland@aol.com>
To: <adkarve@pn2.vsnl.net.in>
Sent: Monday, October 01, 2001 8:46 PM
Subject: Re: carbonisation
> Mr. Karve,
> Couldn't have stated my case better myself. So you do a form of
> continuous processing? How about that dryness factor? Is all green gone
> from the biomass before cooking?
> Daniel Dimiduk
>
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From Carefreeland at aol.com Mon Oct 1 20:26:31 2001
From: Carefreeland at aol.com (Carefreeland@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:08 2004
Subject: carbonisation
Message-ID: <75.1bee3e13.28ea62a2@aol.com>
Mr.Karve,
When I spoke of green I was refering to the unseasoned waste. Here in
Ohio we let wood go a full year ideally before we burn it. The seasoning
process is not just to remove water, but to remove nitrogen and some
potassium as well. Wood may burn ok with some moisture on the outside if
it's seasoned, but if it's green, it produces poisenous smoke.
In your case, just fully drying the cane, and allowing some extra time
for the ammonia to leave, would make for a much cleaner process, and the
efficiancy would go up due to the lack of moisture to be boiled off. In
effect, the sun and drying air replace the thermal energy lost now to boiling
the moisture out. Your efficiancy will go up because the flame temprature
will be hotter and the gas will burn more completely. As you know, it takes
a lot of energy to boil water.
I try to keep the good letters filed, but you can't save em'all.
Does this answer your question? Help?
Daniel Dimiduk
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From psanders at ilstu.edu Tue Oct 2 00:07:02 2001
From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:09 2004
Subject: Kilns for India bagasse
In-Reply-To: <15e.12ba8c8.28db5355@aol.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20011001224232.017f7800@mail.ilstu.edu>
AD and Nick and others,
As per your letter (reprinted below), at Rs50 = US$ 1.00, you need US$100
per kiln of the basic kind, and $200 for the regular,
[[ and $300 for the special (stainless steel barrels), but those are not of
interest to me until proven to be worth the money ]],
And you would like to set up a pilot with 10 kilns which MIGHT even pay
back the investor / donor. I deal with donors who want the money to be
"recirculated" to build more of the kilns.
I am sure I can find between $1000 and $2000 for this pilot
project. ESPECIALLY if it becomes a "microenterprise" and a community
bank project.
But I do have some questions
When is the next bagasse season?
Do the kilns last for several years?
Are you ready to start soon?
I am just now reading some older messages I missed last week.
I leave in 30 hours to Africa, so I will be an infrequent reader and writer.
Please keep up the discussion and I will try to catch up in late October.
Paul
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 21:21:07 +0530
From: "A.D. Karve" <adkarve@pn2.vsnl.net.in>
Subject: Re: Stoves-kilns-bagasse-India
To: "Paul S. Anderson" <psanders@ilstu.edu>
Message-id: <000001c147b7$4fe85ce0$7751c5cb@vsnl.net.in>
MIME-version: 1.0
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References: <15e.12ba8c8.28db5355@aol.com>
<4.3.1.2.20010924143721.00d20f00@mail.ilstu.edu>
<4.3.1.2.20010927085852.00b76f00@mail.ilstu.edu>
Dear Paul,
1 US$ is roughly equal to 50 Indian Rupees. One kiln and extruder unit,
capable of producing about 100 kg char briquettes per day would cost about
Rs.40,000. The extruder is however not obligatory, as the char powder can
be shaped into fuel balls even manually. A crude kiln, just a hollow chamber
without the retorts would cost very little, just about Rs. 5000. The family
operating a 100 kg per day unit would earn an income of about Rs. 3000 per
week. The briquettes need sunshine to dry. Therefore the family can work
for about 35 weeks in a year, and earn about Rs. 100,000 Rupees in a year,
which is as good an income as a whitecollar worker in a city. Sugarcane is
harvested for about 25 weeks, so the major raw material can be dry sugarcane
leaves. Currently we have only one prototype, which we have shown to
officials of several banks. However, because the concept is new, and
because there is no ready market for the briquettes, the potential
entrepreneurs as well as the bankers are hesitant to finance this project.
The fact that we use the char as potting medium, is a different matter. The
entrepreneurs would be willing to give it a try, if they get a unit free of
cost.
Charcoal was the prefered fuel in India, about 50 years ago, but in order to
protect the trees, our government banned charcoal making and made kerosene
available at a very cheap rate. But recently, the subsidy was withdrawn.
The poor now use wood (Rs.2 per kg) instead of kerosene (Rs. 13 per kg). Our
briquettes would be available for about Rs. 6 to 7 per kg. If people used
our stove-and-cooker system, tailored for the use of briquettes, they would
we able to cook the food
requiring 3kg wood with just 100g of char briquettes. The cooker as well as
the briquettes have a good potential market, but we have no money to
commercialise them.
This is not part of the Shell proposal.
I have attached information about our activities.
----- Original Message -----
At 06:51 AM 9/25/01 +0530, A.D. Karve wrote:
>Dear Paul,
>I leave it to Priya to answer the questions about the Shell Foundation,
>becasue she would be attending the meeting to be held from 11 to14 October.
>(1) Our kilns, designed to produce about 100 kg char per day, are made of
>bricks and mud. The kiln is to be erected in a sugarcane field by the
>operator himself. There are two models. One is a conventional model, which
>consists of just a tank-like structure having some air holes at the bottom.
>It is filled with dry sugarcane leaves, which are ignited from the top. A
>chimney fabricated from sheet iron is provided to take the smoke out and
>above the eye level of the operators. This model costs about Rs. 5,000. The
>second model is costly. It is based on the oven-and-retort process. In
>this case too the oven is a brick and mud structure erected in the field,
>but the leaves are loaded into barrels called retorts. The oven takes 7
>barrels. When the kiln is started, the dry leaves in the barrels produce
>gas, which they release at the level of the grate, where it burns. This
>adds to the heat. After the volatiles have been exhausted, the process
>stops and one can unload the barrels, now full of char. One can immediately
>load the next batch of barrels into the oven and start the next batch. The
>hardware cost of the oven-and-retort model is about Rs. 10,000, becasue one
>needs at least two sets of barrels. Each barrel costs about Rs. 400. The
>barrels get corroded very fast. We are seriously thinking of fabricating
>them out of stainless steel sheet. But that may raise the price of the
>entire system to about Rs. 15,000. The plans of providing such kilns to
>unemployed rural youth have still remained only plans. The entire concept
>is new. Neither entrepreneurs nor bankers like to venture into unknown
>territory. The potential entrepreneurs are therefore not ready to invest
>their own money, but are willing to operate the kiln if we gave them a kiln
>free of cost. In fact, we started out with the oven-and-retort process, but
>after we realised the financial difficulty of the operators, we developed
>the cheaper, more conventional kiln. We are on the lookout for financers,
>who may either donate the money for 10 sets of kilns or at least give it as
>a loan.
>(2) Our Institute is working not just on rural energy but on a whole lot of
>technologies, which would be very useful in any developing country. There
>are at least 15 new ideas in our brochure. We have already commercialised a
>few of them and the operators are earning good money with them. These days
>people are chairy about opening attachments to an E-mail. Would you like me
>to send you our brochure as an attachment?
>A.D.Karve
Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders
-
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http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
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Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
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For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
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From adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in Tue Oct 2 05:46:16 2001
From: adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in (A.D. Karve)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:09 2004
Subject: Kilns for charring sugarcane trash
In-Reply-To: <15e.12ba8c8.28db5355@aol.com>
Message-ID: <002601c14b29$464bce40$7482c7cb@vsnl.net.in>
Dear Paul,
your offer is most welcome. The sugarcane harvest begins in the first week
of November. Please note, that it is not bagasse but trash that we want to
char. Bagasse is the fibrous part of the cane. It is used as fuel in the
sugar factory itself . Sugar industry (using sugarcane, not beet) is
totally independant of outside sources of energy. Use of modern boilers and
other refined techniques, sugar factories use so little bagasse for their
own energy needs, that they produce electricity with the left over bagasse
and sell it to others. What we want to char are the dried leaves, called
trash, which are left in the field after the cane has been harvested.
I like the idea, that the kiln and extruder are loaned to the entrepreneurs.
After one of them has paid the money back to us, the next one in line gets
his unit, also as a loan. We are arrnanging with a rural co-operative to
market the briquettes. Alternatively, we don't give an extruder to the
entrepreneurs, but install a large extruder in our own premises, buy the
loose char from the kiln operators, make the briquettes in our unit, and
sell them. When the marketting is channelised, loan recovery would be easy.
The retorts (i.e.barrels) made of mild steel sheet corrode rather fast. I
don't think that they would last longer than a season. Daniel Dimduck has
given me some hints about prolonging their life, and we shall try them out.
Paul Hait of Pyromid suggested the use of stainless steel barrels. They are
mass produced in various shapes and sizes, for being used as storage of
potable water, food grains, etc. If purchased in bulk, they would not be all
that costly. We therefore want to keep that option open, if the cost can be
substantially reduced.
If we get about US$ 1000 in October, we can be ready with some kilns to be
distributed at the beginning of the sugarcane campaign in November. We have
already lined up 15 jobless youngsters who have access to sugarcane trash,
and who are keen to start the business.
A.D.Karve
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul S. Anderson <psanders@ilstu.edu>
To: A.D. Karve <adkarve@pn2.vsnl.net.in>; Nick Nayak
<nicholasnayak@aol.com>; Sandra Broadrick-Allen <sandyba@net66.com>;
Apolinário J Malawene <ajmalawene01@hotmail.com>; Bob and Karla Weldon
<bobkarlaweldon@cs.com>; Ed Francis <cfranc@ilstu.edu>; Tsamba--Alberto
Julio <ajtsamba@zebra.uem.mz>
Cc: <stoves@crest.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2001 9:40 AM
Subject: Kilns for India bagasse
> AD and Nick and others,
>
> As per your letter (reprinted below), at Rs50 = US$ 1.00, you need US$100
> per kiln of the basic kind, and $200 for the regular,
>
> [[ and $300 for the special (stainless steel barrels), but those are not
of
> interest to me until proven to be worth the money ]],
>
> And you would like to set up a pilot with 10 kilns which MIGHT even pay
> back the investor / donor. I deal with donors who want the money to be
> "recirculated" to build more of the kilns.
>
> I am sure I can find between $1000 and $2000 for this pilot
> project. ESPECIALLY if it becomes a "microenterprise" and a community
> bank project.
>
> But I do have some questions
>
> When is the next bagasse season?
>
> Do the kilns last for several years?
>
> Are you ready to start soon?
>
> I am just now reading some older messages I missed last week.
>
> I leave in 30 hours to Africa, so I will be an infrequent reader and
writer.
>
> Please keep up the discussion and I will try to catch up in late October.
>
> Paul
>
> Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 21:21:07 +0530
> From: "A.D. Karve" <adkarve@pn2.vsnl.net.in>
> Subject: Re: Stoves-kilns-bagasse-India
> To: "Paul S. Anderson" <psanders@ilstu.edu>
> Message-id: <000001c147b7$4fe85ce0$7751c5cb@vsnl.net.in>
> MIME-version: 1.0
> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300
> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300
> Content-type: MULTIPART/MIXED;
BOUNDARY="Boundary_(ID_OxPGr03gELuDQOG6BuHfDw)"
> X-Priority: 3
> X-MSMail-priority: Normal
> References: <15e.12ba8c8.28db5355@aol.com>
> <4.3.1.2.20010924143721.00d20f00@mail.ilstu.edu>
> <4.3.1.2.20010927085852.00b76f00@mail.ilstu.edu>
>
> Dear Paul,
> 1 US$ is roughly equal to 50 Indian Rupees. One kiln and extruder unit,
> capable of producing about 100 kg char briquettes per day would cost about
> Rs.40,000. The extruder is however not obligatory, as the char powder can
> be shaped into fuel balls even manually. A crude kiln, just a hollow
chamber
> without the retorts would cost very little, just about Rs. 5000. The
family
> operating a 100 kg per day unit would earn an income of about Rs. 3000 per
> week. The briquettes need sunshine to dry. Therefore the family can work
> for about 35 weeks in a year, and earn about Rs. 100,000 Rupees in a year,
> which is as good an income as a whitecollar worker in a city. Sugarcane is
> harvested for about 25 weeks, so the major raw material can be dry
sugarcane
> leaves. Currently we have only one prototype, which we have shown to
> officials of several banks. However, because the concept is new, and
> because there is no ready market for the briquettes, the potential
> entrepreneurs as well as the bankers are hesitant to finance this project.
> The fact that we use the char as potting medium, is a different matter.
The
> entrepreneurs would be willing to give it a try, if they get a unit free
of
> cost.
> Charcoal was the prefered fuel in India, about 50 years ago, but in order
to
> protect the trees, our government banned charcoal making and made kerosene
> available at a very cheap rate. But recently, the subsidy was withdrawn.
> The poor now use wood (Rs.2 per kg) instead of kerosene (Rs. 13 per kg).
Our
> briquettes would be available for about Rs. 6 to 7 per kg. If people used
> our stove-and-cooker system, tailored for the use of briquettes, they
would
> we able to cook the food
> requiring 3kg wood with just 100g of char briquettes. The cooker as well
as
> the briquettes have a good potential market, but we have no money to
> commercialise them.
> This is not part of the Shell proposal.
> I have attached information about our activities.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
>
>
> At 06:51 AM 9/25/01 +0530, A.D. Karve wrote:
> >Dear Paul,
> >I leave it to Priya to answer the questions about the Shell Foundation,
> >becasue she would be attending the meeting to be held from 11 to14
October.
> >(1) Our kilns, designed to produce about 100 kg char per day, are made of
> >bricks and mud. The kiln is to be erected in a sugarcane field by the
> >operator himself. There are two models. One is a conventional model,
which
> >consists of just a tank-like structure having some air holes at the
bottom.
> >It is filled with dry sugarcane leaves, which are ignited from the top.
A
> >chimney fabricated from sheet iron is provided to take the smoke out and
> >above the eye level of the operators. This model costs about Rs. 5,000.
The
> >second model is costly. It is based on the oven-and-retort process. In
> >this case too the oven is a brick and mud structure erected in the field,
> >but the leaves are loaded into barrels called retorts. The oven takes 7
> >barrels. When the kiln is started, the dry leaves in the barrels produce
> >gas, which they release at the level of the grate, where it burns. This
> >adds to the heat. After the volatiles have been exhausted, the process
> >stops and one can unload the barrels, now full of char. One can
immediately
> >load the next batch of barrels into the oven and start the next batch.
The
> >hardware cost of the oven-and-retort model is about Rs. 10,000, becasue
one
> >needs at least two sets of barrels. Each barrel costs about Rs. 400. The
> >barrels get corroded very fast. We are seriously thinking of fabricating
> >them out of stainless steel sheet. But that may raise the price of the
> >entire system to about Rs. 15,000. The plans of providing such kilns to
> >unemployed rural youth have still remained only plans. The entire
concept
> >is new. Neither entrepreneurs nor bankers like to venture into unknown
> >territory. The potential entrepreneurs are therefore not ready to invest
> >their own money, but are willing to operate the kiln if we gave them a
kiln
> >free of cost. In fact, we started out with the oven-and-retort process,
but
> >after we realised the financial difficulty of the operators, we developed
> >the cheaper, more conventional kiln. We are on the lookout for financers,
> >who may either donate the money for 10 sets of kilns or at least give it
as
> >a loan.
> >(2) Our Institute is working not just on rural energy but on a whole lot
of
> >technologies, which would be very useful in any developing country. There
> >are at least 15 new ideas in our brochure. We have already
commercialised a
> >few of them and the operators are earning good money with them. These
days
> >people are chairy about opening attachments to an E-mail. Would you like
me
> >to send you our brochure as an attachment?
> >A.D.Karve
>
> Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
> Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
> Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
> E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders
>
>
-
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http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml
For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
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From adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in Tue Oct 2 08:44:09 2001
From: adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in (A.D. Karve)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:09 2004
Subject: carbonisation
In-Reply-To: <75.1bee3e13.28ea62a2@aol.com>
Message-ID: <000701c14b42$1edb5560$3d51c5cb@vsnl.net.in>
Dear Daniel,
we use dry leaves of sugarcane and not stems. During the process of
senescence, when the leaf is turning yellow, the plant removes most of the
nitrogen, phosphate and other important elements from the leaves, and sends
them to the green parts. What remains behind is just a lignified and
silicified skeleton. This is of course theory. I do not know actually how
much nitrogen and phosphate is left in the leaves. However, the fact that
the dry leaves of sugarcane are extremely hard to decompose (taking almost 8
months, if buried underground, and almost 5 months if left above ground
after treatment with cultures of decomposing organisms) and the fact that
cattle do not eat them, indicates that they may not have nutrients left in
them. The yellowed leaves are however not shed, but are left attached to the
stem of sugarcane. With this arrangement, by individually hanging them out,
the plant sees to it that are nicely dried. At the time of harvest, the dry
leaves are manually separated from the stem and left in the field. The
green tops of sugarcane are used as cattle fodder, but not the dry leaves.
The dry leaves are about 1 meter long, extremely tough and springy. After
harvest, they form an almost 20 cm thick layer on the field, which
interferes with post harvest operations like ploughing, harrowing (wheels of
the tractor slip over them, and the leaves clog the tynes of the harrow) or
with irrigating the field for a ratoon crop (the crop that grows again from
the stubble of the harvested one). Removing this trash from the field by
using human labour is too costly. Therefore, the farmer gets rid of the
layer of dry leaves lying in his field by just burning them in situ. Each
hectare produces about 10 tonnes of such leaves. They would yield 2 tonnes
of briquettes, having a market value of almost Rs. 13,000. When the
possibility exists of converting the trash into money, manual or mechanical
removal of the trash becomes affordable. By hiring a tractor-drawn harrow,
it costs just Rs. 750 per hectare to drag the leaves to one side of the
field. The charring kiln is constructed in the field itself, using bricks
and mud, and by working day and night, the leaves are converted into char.
Only the char is transported to the briquette making factory. Maharashtra
(our state) has 450,000 hectares of sugarcane, which generates 4.5 million
tonnes of dry leaves. Our process of charring can convert this material
into 900,000 tonnes of char briquettes every year, to generate an income of
almost 6 million Rupees annually. (1 U.S.$= Rs.50).
A.D.Karve
----- Original Message -----
From: <Carefreeland@aol.com>
To: <adkarve@pn2.vsnl.net.in>; <stoves@crest.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2001 5:51 AM
Subject: Re: carbonisation
> Mr.Karve,
> When I spoke of green I was refering to the unseasoned waste. Here in
> Ohio we let wood go a full year ideally before we burn it. The seasoning
> process is not just to remove water, but to remove nitrogen and some
> potassium as well. Wood may burn ok with some moisture on the outside if
> it's seasoned, but if it's green, it produces poisenous smoke.
> In your case, just fully drying the cane, and allowing some extra time
> for the ammonia to leave, would make for a much cleaner process, and the
> efficiancy would go up due to the lack of moisture to be boiled off. In
> effect, the sun and drying air replace the thermal energy lost now to
boiling
> the moisture out. Your efficiancy will go up because the flame temprature
> will be hotter and the gas will burn more completely. As you know, it
takes
> a lot of energy to boil water.
> I try to keep the good letters filed, but you can't save em'all.
> Does this answer your question? Help?
> Daniel Dimiduk
>
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From kchishol at fox.nstn.ca Tue Oct 2 09:23:07 2001
From: kchishol at fox.nstn.ca (Kevin Chisholm)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:09 2004
Subject: carbonisation
In-Reply-To: <75.1bee3e13.28ea62a2@aol.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBLHHHOLFOEGCILKHEOENBDCAA.kchishol@fox.nstn.ca>
Dear Daniel
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Carefreeland@aol.com [mailto:Carefreeland@aol.com]
> Sent: Monday, October 01, 2001 9:22 PM
> To: adkarve@pn2.vsnl.net.in; stoves@crest.org
> Subject: Re: carbonisation
>
....del...
> Wood may burn ok with some moisture on the outside if
> it's seasoned, but if it's green, it produces poisenous smoke.
Could you please elaborate on this??? What kinds of poisons would one expect
from fresh green wood that one would not get from aged, dried wood??
> In your case, just fully drying the cane, and allowing some
> extra time
> for the ammonia to leave, would make for a much cleaner process, and the
> efficiancy would go up due to the lack of moisture to be boiled off. In
> effect, the sun and drying air replace the thermal energy lost
> now to boiling
> the moisture out. Your efficiancy will go up because the flame
> temprature
> will be hotter and the gas will burn more completely. As you
> know, it takes
> a lot of energy to boil water.
Aside from "efficiency loss" associated with the need to boil water, there
will be a very significant yield loss, as the water vapor chemically attacks
the carbon: C = H2O --> CO + H2
Kindest regards,
Kevin Chisholm
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From Carefreeland at aol.com Tue Oct 2 09:52:33 2001
From: Carefreeland at aol.com (Carefreeland@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:09 2004
Subject: carbonisation
Message-ID: <37.1bb5a3d4.28eb1f6f@aol.com>
Mr. Karve,
It sounds to me like you have all of the key points of preparation
covered. Maybe a finnish drying process, to remove any remaining moisture by
waste heat from the process could give a slight gain. You can also make a
solar heated drying area with a rain tarp angled open toward the sun. Test
your moisture content by weighing a sample, then cook it at F140 until it
stops loosing weight. The difference is your moisture content minus maybe 2%.
Our focus for any improvement must be on the burning gas, and the focus
of all radiant heat onto the barrels. Then we must look at the heat coming
off the top of the process, and see how much we can focus this back into the
barrels. The object being, to have cool flue gasses with the heat only
coming out when the barrels do.
Can you use an insulating layer in the construction of the clay and earth
stoves like a hollow core or vermiculite core wall? Even sand insulates
better than clay. Try a quartz sand bottom in the firebox. Cupolas for iron
melting use this to reach F 3000. Your ground may be damp as well.
We can look at the availability of oxygen, and even increasing the stove
temperature to facilitate quicker heat transfer. A possible way to do this
would be to preheat incoming air by running the draft through tubes in the
firebox. Seal the stove and add a chimney, even a short one would strengthen
the draft.
How much smoke does the stove produce when fully hot? Is the smoke any
particular smell?
Another Idea on this corrosion problem. I have held most of my original
paint on my 10lb propane cylinder through two test runs. Talk to your most
knowledgeable paint man about high temp coatings like stove or motor paints.
Buy a small quantity and test a spot on a barrel. Try not to use paint with a
toxic smoke such as heavy metals. Even if the paint only sticks to the
cooler parts of the barrels it will be less to oil. Until you can afford
stainless.
Some combination of the above should give you some increase in
efficiency. Just try the easiest ones first. Is there any way to determine
the original carbon content of the leaves? Maybe you only have 30% to work
with in the leaves, and you are doing your best? Look at steadying the
flame, and fine tuning the proper time to pull the barrels from the heat.
Measure stove temp to regulate as constant as possible.
Try using a test barrel of wood for testing the process. See what your
efficiancy is with other material to compare to down draft pyrolisis.
Good Luck, Keep me posted on any improvements,
Daniel Dimiduk
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From Carefreeland at aol.com Tue Oct 2 10:10:05 2001
From: Carefreeland at aol.com (Carefreeland@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:09 2004
Subject: carbonisation
Message-ID: <12e.56805fc.28eb23ac@aol.com>
Kevin,
The poisen smoke from green wood (or biomass) ranges from CO, carbon
monoxide from incomplete combustion, to NH4 Ammonia, hydrogen cianide,
nitrogen oxides, and VOC's or volital organic compounds. Some from the
presents of nitrogen, some from incomplete combustion.
Good dry cellulose(wood) burned clean, releases CO2 + H2O.
You have made a very good point that the moisture increases the reduction
of the carbon. Another reaction is C + H20 = CH4 + 02 = CO2+ H20 The
feedstock for this process must be very dry for best results. Add moisture,
get less carbon. Thanks for the good point.
Daniel Dimiduk
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From harrick at sinfo.net Tue Oct 2 11:08:47 2001
From: harrick at sinfo.net (B. Harrick)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:09 2004
Subject: carbonisation
In-Reply-To: <NEBBLHHHOLFOEGCILKHEOENBDCAA.kchishol@fox.nstn.ca>
Message-ID: <002101c14b53$ca733080$1207dbd8@cableonda.net>
I am a quiet reader of the stoves list.
Can someone tell me if green wood does produces poisenous gases when it is
burned?
Thanks
B. Harrick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kevin Chisholm" <kchishol@fox.nstn.ca>
To: <Carefreeland@aol.com>; <adkarve@pn2.vsnl.net.in>; <stoves@crest.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2001 8:20 AM
Subject: RE: carbonisation
> Dear Daniel
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Carefreeland@aol.com [mailto:Carefreeland@aol.com]
> > Sent: Monday, October 01, 2001 9:22 PM
> > To: adkarve@pn2.vsnl.net.in; stoves@crest.org
> > Subject: Re: carbonisation
> >
> ....del...
>
> > Wood may burn ok with some moisture on the outside if
> > it's seasoned, but if it's green, it produces poisenous smoke.
>
> Could you please elaborate on this??? What kinds of poisons would one
expect
> from fresh green wood that one would not get from aged, dried wood??
>
> > In your case, just fully drying the cane, and allowing some
> > extra time
> > for the ammonia to leave, would make for a much cleaner process, and the
> > efficiancy would go up due to the lack of moisture to be boiled off. In
> > effect, the sun and drying air replace the thermal energy lost
> > now to boiling
> > the moisture out. Your efficiancy will go up because the flame
> > temprature
> > will be hotter and the gas will burn more completely. As you
> > know, it takes
> > a lot of energy to boil water.
>
> Aside from "efficiency loss" associated with the need to boil water, there
> will be a very significant yield loss, as the water vapor chemically
attacks
> the carbon: C = H2O --> CO + H2
>
> Kindest regards,
>
> Kevin Chisholm
>
>
>
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From psanders at ilstu.edu Tue Oct 2 13:26:33 2001
From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:09 2004
Subject: Financing KILNS for charring sugarcane trash
In-Reply-To: <15e.12ba8c8.28db5355@aol.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20011002114539.00e56340@mail.ilstu.edu>
Sandra and Nick, (with copy to Stoves list so you can see what is
happening and maybe even assist.)
Sandra is the District Governor of my Rotary District 6490 in east central
Illinois. She has control (subject to her Board's approvals) over some
money called DDF (District Designated Funds) and also funds in the District
6490 Charities Foundation. Those should NOT be thought of as large amounts.
Dear Sandra (with food for thought for Nick, who might want to call Sandra
directly),
I tried to phone you, but you are on the road a lot with your District
Governor duties. Because I fly out of here in 15 hours (for 3 weeks in
Africa), I am reverting to e-mail to present a case for the following:
Proposal: That the Rotary District (or its district foundation) provide
the sum of US$1000 for the "kilns for char" project to be conducted by the
Appropriate Rural Technology Insititute (ARTI) in the area of Pune, India,
as per the request in the message below from Dr. A.D. Karve. The money
needs to be sent to India in early October, and can be delivered by Dr. Ron
Larson to Dr. Priya Karve in early October (in London), or it could be
transferred by some other means.
Here are the options as I see them (and that I hope you will accept):
Option 1: That the District 6490 resources be
used. Period. Done. Congratulations on a worthy project.
Option 2: That District 6490 provide the $1000 with the understanding that
the full amount (or some stated part of it) is to be reimbursed by
volunteer donors making tax-deductible donations to the District 6490
Charities Foundation, c/o DG Sandra Broadrick-Allen, 3102 South First
Street, Champaign, Illinois, USA 61822 (e-mail contact:
Sandra Broadrick-Allen <sandyba@net66.com>
Clincher (I hope): If the $1000 is provided for the project by the
District or its foundation, and if donations to cover that amount are not
equal to that amount, then I, Paul S. Anderson, do personally assume the
responsibility to pay the difference, being up to $1000, no later than 15
December 2001.
If more than $1000 is collected, then the surplus money will also be
directed towards stoves-related appropriate projects.
Sandra, Sorry if I am appear hasty and pushy, but I have too little time at
this crucial moment. I might not even receive any reply from you before I
travel. I hope you can see a way to make this happen.
Sandra, Please post a response to ALL of the people who are receiving THIS
message so that they will know if donations could be received and at what
address. If the proposed action canNOT be done, simply say so and I will
try to resolve the issue some other way, but I will be rather late and into
November.
To ANY reader: If you have an alternative way to provide the money to ARTI
(via Ron Larson or other means), please inform the other readers.
To AD Karve: I sure hope this can be accomplished. And we will be
counting on you for detailed reporting on the progress and impact of the
project.
Thanks in advance to everyone,
Paul
(messages below are lengthy but give valuable information in case anyone
needs to send this information to others beyond our Stoves listserve.)
At 02:53 PM 10/2/01 +0530, A.D. Karve wrote:
>Dear Paul,
>Your offer [below, not above] is most welcome. The sugarcane harvest
>begins in the first week
>of November. Please note, that it is not bagasse but trash that we want to
>char. [ PSA: Sorry, a slip by me. I do know the difference.] Bagasse is
>the fibrous part of the cane. It is used as fuel in the
>sugar factory itself . Sugar industry (using sugarcane, not beet) is
>totally independant of outside sources of energy. Use of modern boilers and
>other refined techniques, sugar factories use so little bagasse for their
>own energy needs, that they produce electricity with the left over bagasse
>and sell it to others. What we want to char are the dried leaves, called
>trash, which are left in the field after the cane has been harvested.
>I like the idea, that the kiln and extruder are loaned to the entrepreneurs.
>After one of them has paid the money back to us, the next one in line gets
>his unit, also as a loan. We are arrnanging with a rural co-operative to
>market the briquettes. Alternatively, we don't give an extruder to the
>entrepreneurs, but install a large extruder in our own premises, buy the
>loose char from the kiln operators, make the briquettes in our unit, and
>sell them. When the marketting is channelised, loan recovery would be easy.
>The retorts (i.e.barrels) made of mild steel sheet corrode rather fast. I
>don't think that they would last longer than a season. Daniel Dimduck has
>given me some hints about prolonging their life, and we shall try them out.
>Paul Hait of Pyromid suggested the use of stainless steel barrels. They are
>mass produced in various shapes and sizes, for being used as storage of
>potable water, food grains, etc. If purchased in bulk, they would not be all
>that costly. We therefore want to keep that option open, if the cost can be
>substantially reduced.
>If we get about US$ 1000 in October, we can be ready with some kilns to be
>distributed at the beginning of the sugarcane campaign in November. We have
>already lined up 15 jobless youngsters who have access to sugarcane trash,
>and who are keen to start the business.
>A.D.Karve
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Paul S. Anderson <psanders@ilstu.edu>
>To: A.D. Karve <adkarve@pn2.vsnl.net.in>; Nick Nayak
><nicholasnayak@aol.com>; Sandra Broadrick-Allen <sandyba@net66.com>;
>Apolinário J Malawene <ajmalawene01@hotmail.com>; Bob and Karla Weldon
><bobkarlaweldon@cs.com>; Ed Francis <cfranc@ilstu.edu>; Tsamba--Alberto
>Julio <ajtsamba@zebra.uem.mz>
>Cc: <stoves@crest.org>
>Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2001 9:40 AM
>Subject: Kilns for India bagasse
>
>
> > AD and Nick and others,
> >
> > As per your letter (reprinted below), at Rs50 = US$ 1.00, you need US$100
> > per kiln of the basic kind, and $200 for the regular,
> >
> > [[ and $300 for the special (stainless steel barrels), but those are not
>of
> > interest to me until proven to be worth the money ]],
> >
> > And you would like to set up a pilot with 10 kilns which MIGHT even pay
> > back the investor / donor. I deal with donors who want the money to be
> > "recirculated" to build more of the kilns.
> >
> > I am sure I can find between $1000 and $2000 for this pilot
> > project. ESPECIALLY if it becomes a "microenterprise" and a community
> > bank project.
> >
> > But I do have some questions
> >
> > When is the next bagasse season?
> >
> > Do the kilns last for several years?
> >
> > Are you ready to start soon?
> >
> > I am just now reading some older messages I missed last week.
> >
> > I leave in 30 hours to Africa, so I will be an infrequent reader and
>writer.
> >
> > Please keep up the discussion and I will try to catch up in late October.
> >
> > Paul
> >
> > Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 21:21:07 +0530
> > From: "A.D. Karve" <adkarve@pn2.vsnl.net.in>
> > Subject: Re: Stoves-kilns-bagasse-India
> > To: "Paul S. Anderson" <psanders@ilstu.edu>
> > Message-id: <000001c147b7$4fe85ce0$7751c5cb@vsnl.net.in>
> > MIME-version: 1.0
> > X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300
> > X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300
> > Content-type: MULTIPART/MIXED;
>BOUNDARY="Boundary_(ID_OxPGr03gELuDQOG6BuHfDw)"
> > X-Priority: 3
> > X-MSMail-priority: Normal
> > References: <15e.12ba8c8.28db5355@aol.com>
> > <4.3.1.2.20010924143721.00d20f00@mail.ilstu.edu>
> > <4.3.1.2.20010927085852.00b76f00@mail.ilstu.edu>
> >
> > Dear Paul,
> > 1 US$ is roughly equal to 50 Indian Rupees. One kiln and extruder unit,
> > capable of producing about 100 kg char briquettes per day would cost about
> > Rs.40,000. The extruder is however not obligatory, as the char powder can
> > be shaped into fuel balls even manually. A crude kiln, just a hollow
>chamber
> > without the retorts would cost very little, just about Rs. 5000. The
>family
> > operating a 100 kg per day unit would earn an income of about Rs. 3000 per
> > week. The briquettes need sunshine to dry. Therefore the family can work
> > for about 35 weeks in a year, and earn about Rs. 100,000 Rupees in a year,
> > which is as good an income as a whitecollar worker in a city. Sugarcane is
> > harvested for about 25 weeks, so the major raw material can be dry
>sugarcane
> > leaves. Currently we have only one prototype, which we have shown to
> > officials of several banks. However, because the concept is new, and
> > because there is no ready market for the briquettes, the potential
> > entrepreneurs as well as the bankers are hesitant to finance this project.
> > The fact that we use the char as potting medium, is a different matter.
>The
> > entrepreneurs would be willing to give it a try, if they get a unit free
>of
> > cost.
> > Charcoal was the prefered fuel in India, about 50 years ago, but in order
>to
> > protect the trees, our government banned charcoal making and made kerosene
> > available at a very cheap rate. But recently, the subsidy was withdrawn.
> > The poor now use wood (Rs.2 per kg) instead of kerosene (Rs. 13 per kg).
>Our
> > briquettes would be available for about Rs. 6 to 7 per kg. If people used
> > our stove-and-cooker system, tailored for the use of briquettes, they
>would
> > we able to cook the food
> > requiring 3kg wood with just 100g of char briquettes. The cooker as well
>as
> > the briquettes have a good potential market, but we have no money to
> > commercialise them.
> > This is not part of the Shell proposal.
> > I have attached information about our activities.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> >
> >
> >
> > At 06:51 AM 9/25/01 +0530, A.D. Karve wrote:
> > >Dear Paul,
> > >I leave it to Priya to answer the questions about the Shell Foundation,
> > >becasue she would be attending the meeting to be held from 11 to14
>October.
> > >(1) Our kilns, designed to produce about 100 kg char per day, are made of
> > >bricks and mud. The kiln is to be erected in a sugarcane field by the
> > >operator himself. There are two models. One is a conventional model,
>which
> > >consists of just a tank-like structure having some air holes at the
>bottom.
> > >It is filled with dry sugarcane leaves, which are ignited from the top.
>A
> > >chimney fabricated from sheet iron is provided to take the smoke out and
> > >above the eye level of the operators. This model costs about Rs. 5,000.
>The
> > >second model is costly. It is based on the oven-and-retort process. In
> > >this case too the oven is a brick and mud structure erected in the field,
> > >but the leaves are loaded into barrels called retorts. The oven takes 7
> > >barrels. When the kiln is started, the dry leaves in the barrels produce
> > >gas, which they release at the level of the grate, where it burns. This
> > >adds to the heat. After the volatiles have been exhausted, the process
> > >stops and one can unload the barrels, now full of char. One can
>immediately
> > >load the next batch of barrels into the oven and start the next batch.
>The
> > >hardware cost of the oven-and-retort model is about Rs. 10,000, becasue
>one
> > >needs at least two sets of barrels. Each barrel costs about Rs. 400. The
> > >barrels get corroded very fast. We are seriously thinking of fabricating
> > >them out of stainless steel sheet. But that may raise the price of the
> > >entire system to about Rs. 15,000. The plans of providing such kilns to
> > >unemployed rural youth have still remained only plans. The entire
>concept
> > >is new. Neither entrepreneurs nor bankers like to venture into unknown
> > >territory. The potential entrepreneurs are therefore not ready to invest
> > >their own money, but are willing to operate the kiln if we gave them a
>kiln
> > >free of cost. In fact, we started out with the oven-and-retort process,
>but
> > >after we realised the financial difficulty of the operators, we developed
> > >the cheaper, more conventional kiln. We are on the lookout for financers,
> > >who may either donate the money for 10 sets of kilns or at least give it
>as
> > >a loan.
> > >(2) Our Institute is working not just on rural energy but on a whole lot
>of
> > >technologies, which would be very useful in any developing country. There
> > >are at least 15 new ideas in our brochure. We have already
>commercialised a
> > >few of them and the operators are earning good money with them. These
>days
> > >people are chairy about opening attachments to an E-mail. Would you like
>me
> > >to send you our brochure as an attachment?
> > >A.D.Karve
> >
> > Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
> > Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
> > Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
> > E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders
> >
> >
Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders
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From rstanley at legacyfound.org Tue Oct 2 13:41:32 2001
From: rstanley at legacyfound.org (Richard Stanley)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:09 2004
Subject: carbonisation
In-Reply-To: <75.1bee3e13.28ea62a2@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3BB9FB5D.DE528033@legacyfound.org>
A.D., Daniel,
My mentor in the wet low pressure briquetting process Ben Bryant, advised me
once that if you mix in wet field grass with the more resistant material such
as sugar cane, it will accelerate decomposition markedly. At least it did for
us in Mangochi and Mchinji in Malawi and Chaquilccasa in Cusco departamente
Peru, with eucalyptus leaves and corn stalks.
Grass or no grass, I would suggest that you train the farmers to chop the
leaves BEFORE they decompose them. This increases surface area andwill
,depending upon the seed and shape of the hammermill (a modified stone mill can
work well too) tend to open up the more easily accessible ends of the
material. the chopping and addition of grass , according to our experience,
generally reduces deomposition time by 2/3rds. decomposition measured in terms
of days and weeks not months.
Its really a shame the farmers have to have to burn the material in situ. You
could train the farmers to briquette the material right there in the field and
thanks to your recent communication, produce the char in their own villages
while gaining a heat source for themselves and their families through one of
the rocket type stoves, modified to allow the charred briquette to pass through
to a closed container where it would be snuffed out and preserved for
subsequent addition to char briquettes.
This might also work for my good friends in Kenya too.
Then they could either sell the char product for char briquette production in
the factory. (or, they could choose to accomplish much the same thing in a
second pass through the same press). I speak abit out of turn here I do not
really know the exact context in which such a scheme could work but rely only
upon two years as a Peace corpsman (67 69) and subsequent consulting time (83 -
4) in rural Sri Lanka.
Mata gihila ennang
Richard
"A.D. Karve" wrote:
> Dear Daniel,
> we use dry leaves of sugarcane and not stems. During the process of
> senescence, when the leaf is turning yellow, the plant removes most of the
> nitrogen, phosphate and other important elements from the leaves, and sends
> them to the green parts. What remains behind is just a lignified and
> silicified skeleton. This is of course theory. I do not know actually how
> much nitrogen and phosphate is left in the leaves. However, the fact that
> the dry leaves of sugarcane are extremely hard to decompose (taking almost 8
> months, if buried underground, and almost 5 months if left above ground
> after treatment with cultures of decomposing organisms) and the fact that
> cattle do not eat them, indicates that they may not have nutrients left in
> them. The yellowed leaves are however not shed, but are left attached to the
> stem of sugarcane. With this arrangement, by individually hanging them out,
> the plant sees to it that are nicely dried. At the time of harvest, the dry
> leaves are manually separated from the stem and left in the field. The
> green tops of sugarcane are used as cattle fodder, but not the dry leaves.
> The dry leaves are about 1 meter long, extremely tough and springy. After
> harvest, they form an almost 20 cm thick layer on the field, which
> interferes with post harvest operations like ploughing, harrowing (wheels of
> the tractor slip over them, and the leaves clog the tynes of the harrow) or
> with irrigating the field for a ratoon crop (the crop that grows again from
> the stubble of the harvested one). Removing this trash from the field by
> using human labour is too costly. Therefore, the farmer gets rid of the
> layer of dry leaves lying in his field by just burning them in situ. Each
> hectare produces about 10 tonnes of such leaves. They would yield 2 tonnes
> of briquettes, having a market value of almost Rs. 13,000. When the
> possibility exists of converting the trash into money, manual or mechanical
> removal of the trash becomes affordable. By hiring a tractor-drawn harrow,
> it costs just Rs. 750 per hectare to drag the leaves to one side of the
> field. The charring kiln is constructed in the field itself, using bricks
> and mud, and by working day and night, the leaves are converted into char.
> Only the char is transported to the briquette making factory. Maharashtra
> (our state) has 450,000 hectares of sugarcane, which generates 4.5 million
> tonnes of dry leaves. Our process of charring can convert this material
> into 900,000 tonnes of char briquettes every year, to generate an income of
> almost 6 million Rupees annually. (1 U.S.$= Rs.50).
> A.D.Karve
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <Carefreeland@aol.com>
> To: <adkarve@pn2.vsnl.net.in>; <stoves@crest.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2001 5:51 AM
> Subject: Re: carbonisation
>
> > Mr.Karve,
> > When I spoke of green I was refering to the unseasoned waste. Here in
> > Ohio we let wood go a full year ideally before we burn it. The seasoning
> > process is not just to remove water, but to remove nitrogen and some
> > potassium as well. Wood may burn ok with some moisture on the outside if
> > it's seasoned, but if it's green, it produces poisenous smoke.
> > In your case, just fully drying the cane, and allowing some extra time
> > for the ammonia to leave, would make for a much cleaner process, and the
> > efficiancy would go up due to the lack of moisture to be boiled off. In
> > effect, the sun and drying air replace the thermal energy lost now to
> boiling
> > the moisture out. Your efficiancy will go up because the flame temprature
> > will be hotter and the gas will burn more completely. As you know, it
> takes
> > a lot of energy to boil water.
> > I try to keep the good letters filed, but you can't save em'all.
> > Does this answer your question? Help?
> > Daniel Dimiduk
> >
> > -
> > Stoves List Archives and Website:
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> >
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> >
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> >
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From twp at treeswaterpeople.org Tue Oct 2 18:08:45 2001
From: twp at treeswaterpeople.org (Stuart Conway)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:09 2004
Subject: Stoves for Peace: Refugees
In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20010925125543.00e4e850@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <3BBA3914.C2402936@treeswaterpeople.org>
Hi Matthew,
Thanks for your update on the refugee and stove situation in Pakistan. I
travelled through Afghanistan and spent three months in Chitral, Pakistan in
1975. More recently, my non-profit organization Trees, Water & People has been
working with the Aprovecho Research Center to introduce more fuel-efficient
stoves into our community reforestation projects in Central America.
I agree with your assesment that the refugees have a pretty good stove, already.
I read recently that GTZ had a stove and fuel improvement project located in
Peshawar. However, the Aprovecho Research Center (www.efn.org/~apro) has a
Rocket stove that can be made from used food containers, including 5 gallon
metal containers and soup cans. the elbow shaped combustion chamber is insulated
with wood ash or even paper to make it more efficient. The Rocket can also be
made of clay. Are the international donors still using metal containers for
cooking oil or have they gone to plastic containers?
The other person I have been in contact with is Richard Stanley of the Legacy
Foundation. Working in refugee camps in Africa, he came up with the design for
a compressing machine that can make briquettes from crop residues (rice hulls,
corn stalks, etc.) or from paper.
Do you think that these would be useful technologies for the Afghani refugees
in Pakistan? Any suggestions on which NGOs or agencies might be interested in
receiving this type of training and be able to implement the project?
Stuart Conway
Trees, Water & People
633 S. college Avenue
Fort Collins, CO 80524
Matthew Owen wrote:
> Stovers,
>
> As a roving refugee/energy consultant, I've had the good fortune of being
> able to visit numerous refugee camps in some 15 countries over the last 6
> years, those in Pakistan included.
>
> List members may not be fully aware that Pakistan was hosting 3 million
> Afghan refugees as long ago as 1980, and still hosts over 1 million Afghans
> in Balochistan and North West Frontier Province. They are mostly in small,
> dispersed camps spread along the common border. Almost another 1.5 million
> Afghan refugees are inside Iran. This is not a new phenomenon, only one that
> has recently started appearing on CNN.
>
> In Pakistan the refugees fall under the jurisdiction of the government's
> Commisionerate for Refugees and receive a range of assistance from the
> Commissionerate, UNHCR and a slew of local and international NGOs. This has
> included numerous stove and energy programmes. Pakistan in fact benefitted
> from the most ambitious environmental programme ever implemented under a
> refugee programme that cost $86.5 million and ran for 12 years from 1984-96.
> This included stove programmes, reafforestation activities and numerous
> infrastructure projects (wells, dams, roads, etc). So there is plenty of
> experience in-country, both with refugees and with issues of energy and the
> environment. This experience is not only vested in UNHCR and other
> international organisations, but equally in local people, local NGOs and
> indeed the refugees. Many of the refugees, certainly around Peshawar, are
> well educated and informed individuals who find themselves in exile only
> because they do not support the Taliban government.
>
> We should remember that the Afghan refugees are coming out of one semi-arid
> and pretty hostile environment into another. They have lived all their lives
> in energy-scarce situations and know how to cook and survive under such
> conditions. This applies especially to those fleeing southern Afghanistan
> (Kandahar) into Balochistan (Quetta), which are extremely dry and sparsely
> vegetated areas. I appreciate the sentiment in wanting to offer them moral
> and material support, but we need to be realistic in what can be achieved
> and how much they really need help in the area of cooking stoves.
>
> Crispin is right to note that the refugees currently use fuel-efficient
> mud-stoves to cook. Variations of these are used across South Asia in fact.
> They are simple, fuel-efficient and can be built and repaired by the owner.
> He is also right (in my view) to say that it is not appropriate to fly in
> stove units from outside, but to go for things that can be made on site. For
> one, the system currently used is efficient and culturally proven. In
> addition, the camps are incredibly dispersed and difficult to get to. His
> idea of a lightweight firegrate is certainly a useful suggestion as it can
> be made in-country and distributed with relative ease. It leaves the
> traditional cooking system essentially intact, but makes what appears to be
> a slight improvement.
>
> Solar cookers were promoted extensively in Pakistan under an organisation
> called SERVE, with somewhat limited success. SERVE still works with the
> refugees I believe, but has dropped the solar cooker work. [These cookers
> have also been promoted in Kenyan and Ethiopian camps with, in my view, no
> impact whatsoever. But I appreciate that the promoters have their own
> opinions.]
>
> I think that from a distance we can contribute in a few ways:
>
> (a) Monetary support to organisations working with the refugees, whether in
> education, social services, water, sanitation, health or whatever (e.g. GTZ,
> SERVE, Save the Children USA, Shelter Now, Ockenden International, Mercy
> Corps International).
>
> (b) Offers of simple, locally workable ideas to the UNHCR Engineering and
> Environmental Services section in Geneva, which it should be able to forward
> to the right people in Pakistan (www.unhcr.ch).
>
> (c) A letter writing campaign to the White House urging the USA to show
> restraint, which could help stem the tide of people fleeing Afghanistan.
>
> Matthew Owen
> Chardust Ltd. (+ freelance energy consultant)
> Nairobi
> Kenya
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Paul S. Anderson <psanders@ilstu.edu>
> To: Sandra Broadrick-Allen <sandyba@net66.com>; Apolinário J Malawene
> <ajmalawene01@hotmail.com>; Bob and Karla Weldon <bobkarlaweldon@cs.com>; Ed
> Francis <cfranc@ilstu.edu>; Tsamba--Alberto Julio <ajtsamba@zebra.uem.mz>;
> <stoves@crest.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2001 9:16 PM
> Subject: Stoves for Peace: Refugees
>
> > Stovers,
> >
> > As the Afghani refugees accumulate in Pakistan, we could turn our thoughts
> > to the STOVE needs of the innocent civilians there (and in other areas).
> >
> > These people need to eat, and that means some cooking, and that means
> > stoves to us.
> >
> > Can the assembled experts on stoves (this list serve) do anything, or do
> we
> > just watch?
> >
> > Stoves !!!
> >
> > Could the military forces deliver the goods?
> >
> > Could military engineers and trainers and regular soldiers install stoves
> > (what kind?) for use in refugee camps and in these troubled areas that are
> > NOT combat zones?
> >
> > Is there someone in Pune, India, (or known to the Karve's) or someone else
> > of reasonable qualifications who could travel on a stoves fact-finding
> > mission and help get something going on stoves to serve the
> > refugees? Would be nice if the person spoke a language from the area.
> >
> > If yes to the above, there are those among us who will make that trip
> > possible !!!!
> >
> > NO POLITICS. Just assistance to people in need. Just stoves.
> >
> > Paul
> > Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
> > Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
> > Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
> > E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders
> >
> >
> > -
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> >
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> >
> >
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From kchishol at fox.nstn.ca Tue Oct 2 20:13:11 2001
From: kchishol at fox.nstn.ca (Kevin Chisholm)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:09 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Re: carbonisation
In-Reply-To: <OF4EE66B43.D9FFD7C5-ON41256AD7.003FD272@lkab.kiruna.se>
Message-ID: <000201c14b9f$2dc2a9e0$5019059a@nstn.ca>
Dear lennart
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lennart Mukka" <lennart.mukka@lkab.com>
To: "Carefreeland" <Carefreeland@aol.com>; "rstanley"
<rstanley@legacyfound.org>; <stoves@crest.org>; "gasification"
<gasification@crest.org>
Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2001 8:40 AM
Subject: Ang: GAS-L: Re: carbonisation
>
> A short answer to your mail
> I think my company has the patent for the steel chain belt not only for
> iron ore
> Our Research and Development department have the answeres
Interesting!! Could you please provide the patent number or numbers, and a
brief summary of what exactly your patents cover? When were the patents
obtained?
Kindest regards,
Kevin Chisholm
> Lennart Mukka
> LKAB
> Sweden
>
>
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>
>
>
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From adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in Tue Oct 2 23:56:49 2001
From: adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in (A.D. Karve)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:09 2004
Subject: Financing KILNS for charring sugarcane trash
In-Reply-To: <15e.12ba8c8.28db5355@aol.com>
Message-ID: <000901c14bc1$9c2ab360$6752c5cb@vsnl.net.in>
Dear Sandra, Nick and others,
in one of my previous messages I mentioned that the char briquette
technology had the potential of generating annually, in the state of
Maharashtra alone, 90,000 tonnes of briquettes, saleable at Rs. 6 million.
There was a computing mistake. The potential of this technology is to
generate annually Rs. 6 billion (US$ 120 million). With such a large
amount of money that can be pumped into the rural economy of just one
province, it is the Government of India that should be promoting this
technology. But it is my experience that the politicians would undertake
only such activities that would benefit them personally. If in that process
the nation also benefits, it is a coincidence.
A.D.Karve
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul S. Anderson <psanders@ilstu.edu>
To: A.D. Karve <adkarve@pn2.vsnl.net.in>; Nick Nayak
<nicholasnayak@aol.com>; Sandra Broadrick-Allen <sandyba@net66.com>;
Apolinário J Malawene <ajmalawene01@hotmail.com>; Bob and Karla Weldon
<bobkarlaweldon@cs.com>; Ed Francis <cfranc@ilstu.edu>; Tsamba--Alberto
Julio <ajtsamba@zebra.uem.mz>
Cc: <stoves@crest.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2001 10:59 PM
Subject: Financing KILNS for charring sugarcane trash
Sandra and Nick, (with copy to Stoves list so you can see what is
happening and maybe even assist.)
Sandra is the District Governor of my Rotary District 6490 in east central
Illinois. She has control (subject to her Board's approvals) over some
money called DDF (District Designated Funds) and also funds in the District
6490 Charities Foundation. Those should NOT be thought of as large amounts.
Dear Sandra (with food for thought for Nick, who might want to call Sandra
directly),
I tried to phone you, but you are on the road a lot with your District
Governor duties. Because I fly out of here in 15 hours (for 3 weeks in
Africa), I am reverting to e-mail to present a case for the following:
Proposal: That the Rotary District (or its district foundation) provide
the sum of US$1000 for the "kilns for char" project to be conducted by the
Appropriate Rural Technology Insititute (ARTI) in the area of Pune, India,
as per the request in the message below from Dr. A.D. Karve. The money
needs to be sent to India in early October, and can be delivered by Dr. Ron
Larson to Dr. Priya Karve in early October (in London), or it could be
transferred by some other means.
Here are the options as I see them (and that I hope you will accept):
Option 1: That the District 6490 resources be
used. Period. Done. Congratulations on a worthy project.
Option 2: That District 6490 provide the $1000 with the understanding that
the full amount (or some stated part of it) is to be reimbursed by
volunteer donors making tax-deductible donations to the District 6490
Charities Foundation, c/o DG Sandra Broadrick-Allen, 3102 South First
Street, Champaign, Illinois, USA 61822 (e-mail contact:
Sandra Broadrick-Allen <sandyba@net66.com>
Clincher (I hope): If the $1000 is provided for the project by the
District or its foundation, and if donations to cover that amount are not
equal to that amount, then I, Paul S. Anderson, do personally assume the
responsibility to pay the difference, being up to $1000, no later than 15
December 2001.
If more than $1000 is collected, then the surplus money will also be
directed towards stoves-related appropriate projects.
Sandra, Sorry if I am appear hasty and pushy, but I have too little time at
this crucial moment. I might not even receive any reply from you before I
travel. I hope you can see a way to make this happen.
Sandra, Please post a response to ALL of the people who are receiving THIS
message so that they will know if donations could be received and at what
address. If the proposed action canNOT be done, simply say so and I will
try to resolve the issue some other way, but I will be rather late and into
November.
To ANY reader: If you have an alternative way to provide the money to ARTI
(via Ron Larson or other means), please inform the other readers.
To AD Karve: I sure hope this can be accomplished. And we will be
counting on you for detailed reporting on the progress and impact of the
project.
Thanks in advance to everyone,
Paul
(messages below are lengthy but give valuable information in case anyone
needs to send this information to others beyond our Stoves listserve.)
At 02:53 PM 10/2/01 +0530, A.D. Karve wrote:
>Dear Paul,
>Your offer [below, not above] is most welcome. The sugarcane harvest
>begins in the first week
>of November. Please note, that it is not bagasse but trash that we want to
>char. [ PSA: Sorry, a slip by me. I do know the difference.] Bagasse is
>the fibrous part of the cane. It is used as fuel in the
>sugar factory itself . Sugar industry (using sugarcane, not beet) is
>totally independant of outside sources of energy. Use of modern boilers
and
>other refined techniques, sugar factories use so little bagasse for their
>own energy needs, that they produce electricity with the left over bagasse
>and sell it to others. What we want to char are the dried leaves, called
>trash, which are left in the field after the cane has been harvested.
>I like the idea, that the kiln and extruder are loaned to the
entrepreneurs.
>After one of them has paid the money back to us, the next one in line gets
>his unit, also as a loan. We are arrnanging with a rural co-operative to
>market the briquettes. Alternatively, we don't give an extruder to the
>entrepreneurs, but install a large extruder in our own premises, buy the
>loose char from the kiln operators, make the briquettes in our unit, and
>sell them. When the marketting is channelised, loan recovery would be easy.
>The retorts (i.e.barrels) made of mild steel sheet corrode rather fast. I
>don't think that they would last longer than a season. Daniel Dimduck has
>given me some hints about prolonging their life, and we shall try them out.
>Paul Hait of Pyromid suggested the use of stainless steel barrels. They are
>mass produced in various shapes and sizes, for being used as storage of
>potable water, food grains, etc. If purchased in bulk, they would not be
all
>that costly. We therefore want to keep that option open, if the cost can be
>substantially reduced.
>If we get about US$ 1000 in October, we can be ready with some kilns to be
>distributed at the beginning of the sugarcane campaign in November. We have
>already lined up 15 jobless youngsters who have access to sugarcane trash,
>and who are keen to start the business.
>A.D.Karve
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Paul S. Anderson <psanders@ilstu.edu>
>To: A.D. Karve <adkarve@pn2.vsnl.net.in>; Nick Nayak
><nicholasnayak@aol.com>; Sandra Broadrick-Allen <sandyba@net66.com>;
>Apolinário J Malawene <ajmalawene01@hotmail.com>; Bob and Karla Weldon
><bobkarlaweldon@cs.com>; Ed Francis <cfranc@ilstu.edu>; Tsamba--Alberto
>Julio <ajtsamba@zebra.uem.mz>
>Cc: <stoves@crest.org>
>Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2001 9:40 AM
>Subject: Kilns for India bagasse
>
>
> > AD and Nick and others,
> >
> > As per your letter (reprinted below), at Rs50 = US$ 1.00, you need
US$100
> > per kiln of the basic kind, and $200 for the regular,
> >
> > [[ and $300 for the special (stainless steel barrels), but those are not
>of
> > interest to me until proven to be worth the money ]],
> >
> > And you would like to set up a pilot with 10 kilns which MIGHT even pay
> > back the investor / donor. I deal with donors who want the money to be
> > "recirculated" to build more of the kilns.
> >
> > I am sure I can find between $1000 and $2000 for this pilot
> > project. ESPECIALLY if it becomes a "microenterprise" and a community
> > bank project.
> >
> > But I do have some questions
> >
> > When is the next bagasse season?
> >
> > Do the kilns last for several years?
> >
> > Are you ready to start soon?
> >
> > I am just now reading some older messages I missed last week.
> >
> > I leave in 30 hours to Africa, so I will be an infrequent reader and
>writer.
> >
> > Please keep up the discussion and I will try to catch up in late
October.
> >
> > Paul
> >
> > Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 21:21:07 +0530
> > From: "A.D. Karve" <adkarve@pn2.vsnl.net.in>
> > Subject: Re: Stoves-kilns-bagasse-India
> > To: "Paul S. Anderson" <psanders@ilstu.edu>
> > Message-id: <000001c147b7$4fe85ce0$7751c5cb@vsnl.net.in>
> > MIME-version: 1.0
> > X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300
> > X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300
> > Content-type: MULTIPART/MIXED;
>BOUNDARY="Boundary_(ID_OxPGr03gELuDQOG6BuHfDw)"
> > X-Priority: 3
> > X-MSMail-priority: Normal
> > References: <15e.12ba8c8.28db5355@aol.com>
> > <4.3.1.2.20010924143721.00d20f00@mail.ilstu.edu>
> > <4.3.1.2.20010927085852.00b76f00@mail.ilstu.edu>
> >
> > Dear Paul,
> > 1 US$ is roughly equal to 50 Indian Rupees. One kiln and extruder unit,
> > capable of producing about 100 kg char briquettes per day would cost
about
> > Rs.40,000. The extruder is however not obligatory, as the char powder
can
> > be shaped into fuel balls even manually. A crude kiln, just a hollow
>chamber
> > without the retorts would cost very little, just about Rs. 5000. The
>family
> > operating a 100 kg per day unit would earn an income of about Rs. 3000
per
> > week. The briquettes need sunshine to dry. Therefore the family can
work
> > for about 35 weeks in a year, and earn about Rs. 100,000 Rupees in a
year,
> > which is as good an income as a whitecollar worker in a city. Sugarcane
is
> > harvested for about 25 weeks, so the major raw material can be dry
>sugarcane
> > leaves. Currently we have only one prototype, which we have shown to
> > officials of several banks. However, because the concept is new, and
> > because there is no ready market for the briquettes, the potential
> > entrepreneurs as well as the bankers are hesitant to finance this
project.
> > The fact that we use the char as potting medium, is a different matter.
>The
> > entrepreneurs would be willing to give it a try, if they get a unit free
>of
> > cost.
> > Charcoal was the prefered fuel in India, about 50 years ago, but in
order
>to
> > protect the trees, our government banned charcoal making and made
kerosene
> > available at a very cheap rate. But recently, the subsidy was
withdrawn.
> > The poor now use wood (Rs.2 per kg) instead of kerosene (Rs. 13 per kg).
>Our
> > briquettes would be available for about Rs. 6 to 7 per kg. If people
used
> > our stove-and-cooker system, tailored for the use of briquettes, they
>would
> > we able to cook the food
> > requiring 3kg wood with just 100g of char briquettes. The cooker as
well
>as
> > the briquettes have a good potential market, but we have no money to
> > commercialise them.
> > This is not part of the Shell proposal.
> > I have attached information about our activities.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> >
> >
> >
> > At 06:51 AM 9/25/01 +0530, A.D. Karve wrote:
> > >Dear Paul,
> > >I leave it to Priya to answer the questions about the Shell Foundation,
> > >becasue she would be attending the meeting to be held from 11 to14
>October.
> > >(1) Our kilns, designed to produce about 100 kg char per day, are made
of
> > >bricks and mud. The kiln is to be erected in a sugarcane field by the
> > >operator himself. There are two models. One is a conventional model,
>which
> > >consists of just a tank-like structure having some air holes at the
>bottom.
> > >It is filled with dry sugarcane leaves, which are ignited from the top.
>A
> > >chimney fabricated from sheet iron is provided to take the smoke out
and
> > >above the eye level of the operators. This model costs about Rs.
5,000.
>The
> > >second model is costly. It is based on the oven-and-retort process.
In
> > >this case too the oven is a brick and mud structure erected in the
field,
> > >but the leaves are loaded into barrels called retorts. The oven takes 7
> > >barrels. When the kiln is started, the dry leaves in the barrels
produce
> > >gas, which they release at the level of the grate, where it burns.
This
> > >adds to the heat. After the volatiles have been exhausted, the process
> > >stops and one can unload the barrels, now full of char. One can
>immediately
> > >load the next batch of barrels into the oven and start the next batch.
>The
> > >hardware cost of the oven-and-retort model is about Rs. 10,000, becasue
>one
> > >needs at least two sets of barrels. Each barrel costs about Rs. 400.
The
> > >barrels get corroded very fast. We are seriously thinking of
fabricating
> > >them out of stainless steel sheet. But that may raise the price of the
> > >entire system to about Rs. 15,000. The plans of providing such kilns
to
> > >unemployed rural youth have still remained only plans. The entire
>concept
> > >is new. Neither entrepreneurs nor bankers like to venture into unknown
> > >territory. The potential entrepreneurs are therefore not ready to
invest
> > >their own money, but are willing to operate the kiln if we gave them a
>kiln
> > >free of cost. In fact, we started out with the oven-and-retort
process,
>but
> > >after we realised the financial difficulty of the operators, we
developed
> > >the cheaper, more conventional kiln. We are on the lookout for
financers,
> > >who may either donate the money for 10 sets of kilns or at least give
it
>as
> > >a loan.
> > >(2) Our Institute is working not just on rural energy but on a whole
lot
>of
> > >technologies, which would be very useful in any developing country.
There
> > >are at least 15 new ideas in our brochure. We have already
>commercialised a
> > >few of them and the operators are earning good money with them. These
>days
> > >people are chairy about opening attachments to an E-mail. Would you
like
>me
> > >to send you our brochure as an attachment?
> > >A.D.Karve
> >
> > Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
> > Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
> > Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
> > E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders
> >
> >
Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders
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From owen at africaonline.co.ke Wed Oct 3 00:11:05 2001
From: owen at africaonline.co.ke (Matthew Owen)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:09 2004
Subject: Stoves for Peace: Refugees
In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20010925125543.00e4e850@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <057e01c14bc0$2c880400$d140083e@oemcomputer>
Stuart,
Yes, GTZ has been prominent in Peshawar with stoves research. Their work has
had offshoots in various local NGOs.
Also yes, cooking oil is supplied to refugees in metal containers, either
cylindrical or rectangular. The metal tends to be rather thin. I've seen
basic charcoal stoves made out of such oil cans which last only 6-9 months.
They are also often deliberately punctured by World Food Programme to
prevent resale of the oil onto local markets - though the sidewalls of the
cans are left intact. The rocket stove may nevertheless be an option to look
into for camps close to Peshawar, if reinforced with clay.
I'll try and find a contact for an agency working with
refugees/stoves/environment in that area and will get back to you.
Sincerely,
Matthew Owen
Chardust
Nairobi
Kenya
----- Original Message -----
From: Stuart Conway <twp@treeswaterpeople.org>
To: Matthew Owen <owen@africaonline.co.ke>
Cc: <dstill@epud.net>; Richard Stanley <rstanley@legacyfound.org>;
<stoves@crest.org>
Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2001 1:00 AM
Subject: Re: Stoves for Peace: Refugees
> Hi Matthew,
>
> Thanks for your update on the refugee and stove situation in Pakistan. I
> travelled through Afghanistan and spent three months in Chitral, Pakistan
in
> 1975. More recently, my non-profit organization Trees, Water & People has
been
> working with the Aprovecho Research Center to introduce more
fuel-efficient
> stoves into our community reforestation projects in Central America.
>
> I agree with your assesment that the refugees have a pretty good stove,
already.
> I read recently that GTZ had a stove and fuel improvement project located
in
> Peshawar. However, the Aprovecho Research Center (www.efn.org/~apro) has a
> Rocket stove that can be made from used food containers, including 5
gallon
> metal containers and soup cans. the elbow shaped combustion chamber is
insulated
> with wood ash or even paper to make it more efficient. The Rocket can
also be
> made of clay. Are the international donors still using metal containers
for
> cooking oil or have they gone to plastic containers?
>
> The other person I have been in contact with is Richard Stanley of the
Legacy
> Foundation. Working in refugee camps in Africa, he came up with the design
for
> a compressing machine that can make briquettes from crop residues (rice
hulls,
> corn stalks, etc.) or from paper.
>
> Do you think that these would be useful technologies for the Afghani
refugees
> in Pakistan? Any suggestions on which NGOs or agencies might be interested
in
> receiving this type of training and be able to implement the project?
>
> Stuart Conway
> Trees, Water & People
> 633 S. college Avenue
> Fort Collins, CO 80524
>
>
>
> Matthew Owen wrote:
>
> > Stovers,
> >
> > As a roving refugee/energy consultant, I've had the good fortune of
being
> > able to visit numerous refugee camps in some 15 countries over the last
6
> > years, those in Pakistan included.
> >
> > List members may not be fully aware that Pakistan was hosting 3 million
> > Afghan refugees as long ago as 1980, and still hosts over 1 million
Afghans
> > in Balochistan and North West Frontier Province. They are mostly in
small,
> > dispersed camps spread along the common border. Almost another 1.5
million
> > Afghan refugees are inside Iran. This is not a new phenomenon, only one
that
> > has recently started appearing on CNN.
> >
> > In Pakistan the refugees fall under the jurisdiction of the government's
> > Commisionerate for Refugees and receive a range of assistance from the
> > Commissionerate, UNHCR and a slew of local and international NGOs. This
has
> > included numerous stove and energy programmes. Pakistan in fact
benefitted
> > from the most ambitious environmental programme ever implemented under a
> > refugee programme that cost $86.5 million and ran for 12 years from
1984-96.
> > This included stove programmes, reafforestation activities and numerous
> > infrastructure projects (wells, dams, roads, etc). So there is plenty of
> > experience in-country, both with refugees and with issues of energy and
the
> > environment. This experience is not only vested in UNHCR and other
> > international organisations, but equally in local people, local NGOs and
> > indeed the refugees. Many of the refugees, certainly around Peshawar,
are
> > well educated and informed individuals who find themselves in exile only
> > because they do not support the Taliban government.
> >
> > We should remember that the Afghan refugees are coming out of one
semi-arid
> > and pretty hostile environment into another. They have lived all their
lives
> > in energy-scarce situations and know how to cook and survive under such
> > conditions. This applies especially to those fleeing southern
Afghanistan
> > (Kandahar) into Balochistan (Quetta), which are extremely dry and
sparsely
> > vegetated areas. I appreciate the sentiment in wanting to offer them
moral
> > and material support, but we need to be realistic in what can be
achieved
> > and how much they really need help in the area of cooking stoves.
> >
> > Crispin is right to note that the refugees currently use fuel-efficient
> > mud-stoves to cook. Variations of these are used across South Asia in
fact.
> > They are simple, fuel-efficient and can be built and repaired by the
owner.
> > He is also right (in my view) to say that it is not appropriate to fly
in
> > stove units from outside, but to go for things that can be made on site.
For
> > one, the system currently used is efficient and culturally proven. In
> > addition, the camps are incredibly dispersed and difficult to get to.
His
> > idea of a lightweight firegrate is certainly a useful suggestion as it
can
> > be made in-country and distributed with relative ease. It leaves the
> > traditional cooking system essentially intact, but makes what appears to
be
> > a slight improvement.
> >
> > Solar cookers were promoted extensively in Pakistan under an
organisation
> > called SERVE, with somewhat limited success. SERVE still works with the
> > refugees I believe, but has dropped the solar cooker work. [These
cookers
> > have also been promoted in Kenyan and Ethiopian camps with, in my view,
no
> > impact whatsoever. But I appreciate that the promoters have their own
> > opinions.]
> >
> > I think that from a distance we can contribute in a few ways:
> >
> > (a) Monetary support to organisations working with the refugees, whether
in
> > education, social services, water, sanitation, health or whatever (e.g.
GTZ,
> > SERVE, Save the Children USA, Shelter Now, Ockenden International, Mercy
> > Corps International).
> >
> > (b) Offers of simple, locally workable ideas to the UNHCR Engineering
and
> > Environmental Services section in Geneva, which it should be able to
forward
> > to the right people in Pakistan (www.unhcr.ch).
> >
> > (c) A letter writing campaign to the White House urging the USA to show
> > restraint, which could help stem the tide of people fleeing Afghanistan.
> >
> > Matthew Owen
> > Chardust Ltd. (+ freelance energy consultant)
> > Nairobi
> > Kenya
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Paul S. Anderson <psanders@ilstu.edu>
> > To: Sandra Broadrick-Allen <sandyba@net66.com>; Apolinário J Malawene
> > <ajmalawene01@hotmail.com>; Bob and Karla Weldon
<bobkarlaweldon@cs.com>; Ed
> > Francis <cfranc@ilstu.edu>; Tsamba--Alberto Julio
<ajtsamba@zebra.uem.mz>;
> > <stoves@crest.org>
> > Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2001 9:16 PM
> > Subject: Stoves for Peace: Refugees
> >
> > > Stovers,
> > >
> > > As the Afghani refugees accumulate in Pakistan, we could turn our
thoughts
> > > to the STOVE needs of the innocent civilians there (and in other
areas).
> > >
> > > These people need to eat, and that means some cooking, and that means
> > > stoves to us.
> > >
> > > Can the assembled experts on stoves (this list serve) do anything, or
do
> > we
> > > just watch?
> > >
> > > Stoves !!!
> > >
> > > Could the military forces deliver the goods?
> > >
> > > Could military engineers and trainers and regular soldiers install
stoves
> > > (what kind?) for use in refugee camps and in these troubled areas that
are
> > > NOT combat zones?
> > >
> > > Is there someone in Pune, India, (or known to the Karve's) or someone
else
> > > of reasonable qualifications who could travel on a stoves fact-finding
> > > mission and help get something going on stoves to serve the
> > > refugees? Would be nice if the person spoke a language from the
area.
> > >
> > > If yes to the above, there are those among us who will make that trip
> > > possible !!!!
> > >
> > > NO POLITICS. Just assistance to people in need. Just stoves.
> > >
> > > Paul
> > > Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
> > > Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
> > > Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
> > > E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders
> > >
> > >
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From ZBihari at ormat.com Wed Oct 3 04:02:58 2001
From: ZBihari at ormat.com (Zoli Bihari)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:09 2004
Subject: carbonisation
Message-ID: <727CFCBBE1C3D41181FC005004201AA0A4EAD7@ORMAT-NT>
Hi,
Regarding the carbon content of the sugar cane leafs, take a look:
http://www.ecn.nl/phyllis/cgi-bin/search.asp
This is the search page of a data base called "Phyllis".
Enter "sugar cane leaf" and you'll get the necesrary data.
There is allso an item called "sugar cane trash" but it is empty.
Zoli
Zoli Bihari
R&D - Ormat Ltd. - Israel
Tel: 972 (8) 9433894
Fax: 972 (8) 9439901
E-mail: zbihari@ormat.com
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Carefreeland@aol.com [mailto:Carefreeland@aol.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2001 3:47 PM
> To: adkarve@pn2.vsnl.net.in; stoves@crest.org
> Subject: Re: carbonisation
>
>
> Mr. Karve,
> It sounds to me like you have all of the key points of
> preparation
> covered. Maybe a finnish drying process, to remove any
> remaining moisture by
> waste heat from the process could give a slight gain. You
> can also make a
> solar heated drying area with a rain tarp angled open toward
> the sun. Test
> your moisture content by weighing a sample, then cook it at
> F140 until it
> stops loosing weight. The difference is your moisture content
> minus maybe 2%.
> Our focus for any improvement must be on the burning gas,
> and the focus
> of all radiant heat onto the barrels. Then we must look at
> the heat coming
> off the top of the process, and see how much we can focus
> this back into the
> barrels. The object being, to have cool flue gasses with the
> heat only
> coming out when the barrels do.
> Can you use an insulating layer in the construction of
> the clay and earth
> stoves like a hollow core or vermiculite core wall? Even
> sand insulates
> better than clay. Try a quartz sand bottom in the firebox.
> Cupolas for iron
> melting use this to reach F 3000. Your ground may be damp as well.
> We can look at the availability of oxygen, and even
> increasing the stove
> temperature to facilitate quicker heat transfer. A possible
> way to do this
> would be to preheat incoming air by running the draft through
> tubes in the
> firebox. Seal the stove and add a chimney, even a short one
> would strengthen
> the draft.
> How much smoke does the stove produce when fully hot? Is
> the smoke any
> particular smell?
> Another Idea on this corrosion problem. I have held most
> of my original
> paint on my 10lb propane cylinder through two test runs. Talk
> to your most
> knowledgeable paint man about high temp coatings like stove
> or motor paints.
> Buy a small quantity and test a spot on a barrel. Try not to
> use paint with a
> toxic smoke such as heavy metals. Even if the paint only
> sticks to the
> cooler parts of the barrels it will be less to oil. Until you
> can afford
> stainless.
> Some combination of the above should give you some increase in
> efficiency. Just try the easiest ones first. Is there any
> way to determine
> the original carbon content of the leaves? Maybe you only
> have 30% to work
> with in the leaves, and you are doing your best? Look at
> steadying the
> flame, and fine tuning the proper time to pull the barrels
> from the heat.
> Measure stove temp to regulate as constant as possible.
> Try using a test barrel of wood for testing the process.
> See what your
> efficiancy is with other material to compare to down draft pyrolisis.
> Good Luck, Keep me posted on any improvements,
> Daniel Dimiduk
>
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From wycliffe.musungu at kam.co.ke Wed Oct 3 04:49:54 2001
From: wycliffe.musungu at kam.co.ke (Wycliffe Musungu)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:09 2004
Subject: Fly Ash.
Message-ID: <OMEFLIBBBFDEEFKCJPKMAEGFCAAA.wycliffe.musungu@kam.co.ke>
I have a problem of fly ash from a very clean burning stove chimney. Any
ideas on a practical way to settle them, a cyclone?.
Regards,
Musungu.
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From crispin at newdawn.sz Wed Oct 3 07:00:46 2001
From: crispin at newdawn.sz (New Dawn Engineering / ATEX)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:09 2004
Subject: High temp Stove paint
Message-ID: <004201c14bf5$aaf8fe40$ebe80fc4@am29>
Dear Stovers looking for suitable paint
Daniel commented:
>Talk to your most knowledgeable paint man about
>high temp coatings like stove or motor paints.
>Buy a small quantity and test a spot on a barrel.
>Try not to use paint with a toxic smoke such as
>heavy metals.
There is a silicone paint available in South Africa which we have been using
for some time. It was available in a few colours but recently white remains
the only choice. It is marketed by two companies under slightly different
names like HRA 540 which means simply heat resistant paint good to 540
degrees C.
It costs about $23 for 5 litres. It can be brushed on. When it is dry it
is pretty soft and can be scraped off without too much trouble. After
reaching 200 degrees the polymers cross-link and if it is 'burner black' it
changes colour slightly to slate grey. It is then quite difficult to scrape
off and is pretty abrasion resistant.
Black was called HRA21 Plasco Therm available from Plascon Paint. HRA6 is
the same thing in silver. There was at one time a competing Dulux product.
While it is able to resist 540 deg well, it actually doesn't burn off until
higher temps.
Regards
Crispin
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From tombreed at home.com Wed Oct 3 08:03:03 2001
From: tombreed at home.com (Thomas Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:10 2004
Subject: carbonisation
In-Reply-To: <NEBBLHHHOLFOEGCILKHEOENBDCAA.kchishol@fox.nstn.ca>
Message-ID: <013201c14c01$372f2780$18e5b618@lakwod3.co.home.com>
Dear Harrick and Stoves:
I caught Dan's reference to "poisonous gases" from green wood and wondered
about it at the time.
This is a pretty vague question. All combustion gases are "poisonous" - if
you get enough of them, even CO2 (asphyxiation). Most by pyrolysis will
contain CO. Higher toxicity comes with higher temperature pyrolysis
generating polynuclear aromatics (benz a pyrene), famous for causing cancer
of the scrotum for chimney sweeps. Burning green wood requires higher
temperatures, so maybe produces more toxic gases.
As a general rule, don't breathe smoke!
Yours for cleaner combustion... TOM REED
Dr. Thomas Reed
The Biomass Energy Foundation
1810 Smith Rd., Golden, CO 80401
303 278 0558;
tombreed@home.com; www.woodgas.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "B. Harrick" <harrick@sinfo.net>
To: <stoves@crest.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2001 9:06 AM
Subject: Re: carbonisation
> I am a quiet reader of the stoves list.
> Can someone tell me if green wood does produces poisenous gases when it is
> burned?
> Thanks
> B. Harrick
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kevin Chisholm" <kchishol@fox.nstn.ca>
> To: <Carefreeland@aol.com>; <adkarve@pn2.vsnl.net.in>; <stoves@crest.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2001 8:20 AM
> Subject: RE: carbonisation
>
>
> > Dear Daniel
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Carefreeland@aol.com [mailto:Carefreeland@aol.com]
> > > Sent: Monday, October 01, 2001 9:22 PM
> > > To: adkarve@pn2.vsnl.net.in; stoves@crest.org
> > > Subject: Re: carbonisation
> > >
> > ....del...
> >
> > > Wood may burn ok with some moisture on the outside if
> > > it's seasoned, but if it's green, it produces poisenous smoke.
> >
> > Could you please elaborate on this??? What kinds of poisons would one
> expect
> > from fresh green wood that one would not get from aged, dried wood??
> >
> > > In your case, just fully drying the cane, and allowing some
> > > extra time
> > > for the ammonia to leave, would make for a much cleaner process, and
the
> > > efficiancy would go up due to the lack of moisture to be boiled off.
In
> > > effect, the sun and drying air replace the thermal energy lost
> > > now to boiling
> > > the moisture out. Your efficiancy will go up because the flame
> > > temprature
> > > will be hotter and the gas will burn more completely. As you
> > > know, it takes
> > > a lot of energy to boil water.
> >
> > Aside from "efficiency loss" associated with the need to boil water,
there
> > will be a very significant yield loss, as the water vapor chemically
> attacks
> > the carbon: C = H2O --> CO + H2
> >
> > Kindest regards,
> >
> > Kevin Chisholm
> >
> >
> >
> > -
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From kchishol at fox.nstn.ca Wed Oct 3 08:41:00 2001
From: kchishol at fox.nstn.ca (Kevin Chisholm)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:10 2004
Subject: Fly Ash.
In-Reply-To: <OMEFLIBBBFDEEFKCJPKMAEGFCAAA.wycliffe.musungu@kam.co.ke>
Message-ID: <NEBBLHHHOLFOEGCILKHEOENPDCAA.kchishol@fox.nstn.ca>
Dear Wycliffe
Firstly, could you tell us a bit more about the application..... fuel being
burned, rate of burning, and something about the physical size and nature of
he applicance.
The first thing to consider is whether or not it is possible to reidirect
products of combustion within the existing applicance, to encourage
"drop-out" of the fly ash before it reaches the stack. The next thing to
consider would be a settling chamber.
I would suggest that cyclones are a last resort, in that they need a
significant pressure drop to be effective: you would probably have to
increase stack height, or install a suction fan.
Best wishes,
Kevin Chisholm
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Wycliffe Musungu [mailto:wycliffe.musungu@kam.co.ke]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2001 5:13 AM
> To: Ron
> Subject: Fly Ash.
>
>
>
> I have a problem of fly ash from a very clean burning stove chimney. Any
> ideas on a practical way to settle them, a cyclone?.
> Regards,
> Musungu.
>
>
>
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From crispin at newdawn.sz Thu Oct 4 10:59:08 2001
From: crispin at newdawn.sz (New Dawn Engineering / ATEX)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:10 2004
Subject: Rice huller
Message-ID: <003c01c14ce5$5be2da60$e8e80fc4@am29>
Dear Stovers
Just a stab in the dark: Can anyone help me find some drawings for a hand
operated rice huller? We need some in northern Moçambique.
Regards
Crispin
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From crispin at newdawn.sz Thu Oct 4 17:53:33 2001
From: crispin at newdawn.sz (Crispin)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:10 2004
Subject: Aren't wood stoves carbon dioxide-neutral?
Message-ID: <00ca01c14cb9$bbc9a660$73e80fc4@home>
Dear Denny
On Sept 24 you wrote:
>Thus logging can release 3 times the carbon than is contained
>just in the trees. There is also the pesky matter of loss of
>sequestration capability, when forests are replaced with short
>rotation tree factories. The soil carbon sequestration cycle is
>essentially ended when forests are converted to monocultures.
[Denny Haldeman <denny@voyageronline.net>
I am interested to know how that comes about. Don't monocultured trees have
roots too? Aren't they left in the ground after cutting and rot slowly as
the new trees grow? Is it the tree type that causes the problem? All the
short rotation forests here leave the stumps in the ground and they plant
around them, except eucalypts which are coppiced. Where does the net loss
come from?
Thanks
Crispin
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From ronallarson at qwest.net Fri Oct 5 13:45:25 2001
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:10 2004
Subject: Heat transfer to pots
In-Reply-To: <51320B39AB13D4118FDB00500486CC003663AC@colds01.fticorp.com>
Message-ID: <091501c14dc5$00d5eb40$e3b16441@computer>
Dale and stovers:
See below:. This is to add a bit more to the response of A.D. Karve of
Sept. 25 - where he noted the value of about a 1/4 inch gap around the
cookpot. See also some earlier reports on this list of other Indian work
on a very efficient "Bachat" stove - which had a similar gap but also used a
steam recapture principle with stacked vessels.
----- Original Message -----
From: Andreatta, Dale A. <dandreatta@fticonsulting.com>
To: <stoves@crest.org>
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2001 2:49 PM
Subject: Heat transfer to pots
> I'm Dale Andreatta, I've been lurking for a while (I went to grad school
> with Tami Bond, which is how I found out about this list) but thought it
was
> time to jump in with a general question.
>
(RWL): You have a tough job offering as much to this list as has Tami.
(Tami - thanks for providing this introduction and for your message of 9/27
updating the GW subsidy potential - more on that after the Shell meeting).
I presume that you have a technical background - the subject you have
selected for your "general question" is one we need a lot of help on.
Thanks for bring ing this up. Perhaps you can begin by giving us more on
your background and reasons for "lurking".
> According to Dean Still's recent posting (of 9/19, part of which I've
> included below) the efficiency of the combustion process is pretty good,
but
> most of the heat that is liberated gets wasted.
(RWL): Some of the best recent work has certainly been done by Dean and
others at Apprevecho. In a recent message Dean said he was going to put
something up on his website - but I couldn't find it. Perhaps Dean can give
us more detail on the Apprevecho work on this topic.
> The basic question is: is
> it possible to significantly increase the efficiency of the stove by
> increasing the heat transfer between the hot gas and the pot or by
> decreasing the heat transfer to the solid materials of the stove?
(RWL): I think few on this list would argue on this point - the answer is
certainly yes.
>If so, how?
(RWL) Besides the steam recapture ideas of above, we are stuck with
radiation, conduction and convection. There must be heat transfer programs
that you (others?) may have access to that could be used for some numerical
experiments along these lines. I have not heard of any that have been
applied to this problem. The problem probably is that we are talking about
difficult three-dimensional problems with a lot of basic chemistry going on
(hundreds of reactions) mostly with very short time scales and short
residence times. You will have to find a much simplified model and this
list could probably help with some ideas. Getting to two space dimensions is
certainly possible (omitting angular differences), and some 1-D problems may
give us more insight than we now have. Probably a lot can be learned with a
steady state approximation. I know of only a few modelers on this list and
hope they will enter the discussion with ideas and references.
As regards radiation - this is certainly part of the understanding of
outer radius losses. There also must be siginficantly greater heat transfer
from a hot outer container than a colder one to the standard 100oC cookpot
from which we are trying to boil away water (in the standard stove
efficiency test). I have not seen this radiative effect quantified.
Conduction to the heat pot is similarly not often (ever?) mentioned on
this list. Typically the flames directly impact the cookpot, but perhaps we
should be conducting heat from the flame to an intermediate part which
transfers the heat to the cookpot. I am not talking about a large heating
plate, only part of which is contacting the cookpot (which I think is
inherently quite inefficient). Rather I am talking about a small piece
embedded in the flame and insulated in all directions except toward the
cookpot. As Dean mentions there is also a lot of work remaining to be done
in the conductive parts of the cookpot itself to improve efficiency.
Lastly is convection.which is apparently the dominant means for
transferring heat from the combustion gases to the cookpot. I don't recall
ever seeing a stoves paper on the relative amount of energy getting to the
cookpot from the bottom vs the sides via convective heat transfer, but
suspect that is a trivial exercise for the right modeling code. Anyone know
how this answer varies with various width to heighth ratios? Seen this in
any text books?
Sam Baldwin wrote an often-cited stoves report for USAID showing how the
optimum gap width should vary as a function of heighth and width. I haven't
seen this graph anywhere else. I now don't know where my copy is. Could
anyone copy this section and transfer to Alex? To the best of my knowledge
this has not been experimentally verified - and I don't believe it was done
with the type of thermal modelling codes that I think are now available. I
don't remember anything about Sam's assumptions on the properties of the
outer wall, or on Reynold's numbers, etc.
About ten years ago I looked briefly at my nonfunctioning gas-fired
home hot water heater - which seems to achieve 80+% (some are advertised now
at 95+% heat transfer efficiency - all (I think?) via convection. One can
hold one's hand in the exiting gas flow. This is like a samovar - interior
"chimney" with a water jacket. The (new?) point is that it also had an
undulating tight-fitting (maybe some conduction going on?) interior
undulating strip. It would be very instructive to know how much effect this
strip has on the water heater performance - and why? (I think this is an
easy laboratory experiment, but I don't have the laboratory.) Is the strip
causing turbulence? How important is the "wavelength" of the undulation?
(my water heater was 1.5 meters tall and might have contained 5-10
wavelengths (memory is failing me). The "amplitude" was small - maybe 10-20
degrees of circumference. If we knew how these units had been optimized
maybe we could transfer the same concept to the outside of a cookpot - so
the "gap" mentioned by Dean and A.D. might be much better as a ring of
undulating channels. What is the right width, height, or number of channels
in a circumference? I doubt anyone has looked. (In such designs you have
to worry about differential rates of expansion.)
One reason we don't see much of optimized cooking systems is reported to
be that stoves are "supposed" to fit any cookpot. I am not sure of Dean's
or A.D.'s work - but guess they are forced to fit the "gap" to each pot.
The Bachat pot was still looking for the perfect stove when last we heard.
I think there is lots of room for a systems approach where the pot and stove
are better integrated - as with every residential water heater. I f the
stoves are otherwise cheap enough we might be able to show that you need
different stoves for frying, boiling, baking, etc. (common enough in the
US.)
Another idea could be the backfitting of cookpots with some sort of all
purpose "gizmo" that promotes both conduction and convection to the cookpot.
My mental image is of one or a few coiled springs - through which gases can
flow. but pick up energy which is conductively transferred to the cookpot.
The other mental image I have is of cookpots that are manufactured not
with smooth shiny sides, but rather with "wings" that both modify the rising
(or horizontally moving in stoves with chimneys) hot airflow and greatly
increase the surface area (as in car radiators). I have no reason to think
it would do great, but believe that some research along these lines could
eventually get our efficiency up from the 15-30% range to something over
50%. That's a lot of saved wood. The best way to start, I think is to use
computer models - which is a skill I am hoping you might have.
These ideas are probably around in some large corporate laboratories,
but probably not published for proprietary reasons or because it doesn't fit
neatly into standard conference proceedings. Certainly there is a lot on
how to maximize heat transfer in large commercial boilers - and lots are
probably transferable - but I don't know anyone who has looked at these
types of issues. Prasad or other from Eindhoven - any work there? Anything
in thermodynamics and heat transfer texts that would be a helpful place for
Dale (and hopefully others) to start looking?
>What has been done on this?
>
I hope I have answered this above. I see a little done, with
knowledge of what to do in general - but little theory and less experimental
proof. Almost nothing on changing standard cookpots. I hope others will
tell me I am wrong.
> Dean Still's posting suggests that a lot of work has been done in this
area,
> but still the efficiency of the process is low. This seems odd to me, and
> seems like a very fruitful area for future work.
>
(RWL): I agree totally with much of your conclusion (not with the words
"a lot"). A big part of the problem (or opportunity if viewed from an R&D
perspective) is that little money has been devoted to this topic - ever.
Probably a few millions of $ have been spent by donor agencies over the past
several decades on stoves - but most has been for introduction of new stoves
designs - many of which were later found by users to be inferior to what
they were supposed to replace. I doubt that even a million dollars has ever
been spent on developmental research for third world cookstove/cookpot
efficiency improvements. I guess most of the improvements (such as those
reported by Dean and A.D.) have come from small individual efforts like I am
hoping we can get you (and others) more involved with. Maybe some small
part of the Shell Foundation effort can be allocated to this efficiency
improvement topic. I shall be making that pitch - but it also will require
clever new ideas to be proposed by persons who know how to write convincing
proposals (meaning you have to demonstrate you understand the problems, have
new ideas and results already, and will benefit from new funds to advance
something or other). I am out of that proposal business now - but hope some
list members will pick up that challenge. (Interested persons should note
that a failure to work well with technical staff was the major conclusion I
drew out of the evaluation of the Indian stove program that was mentioned
last month on this list.) The efforts of Paul Anderson to facilitate
information transfer on these sorts of topics is also badly needed and
woefully late - another topic for Shell to consider I hope. At the rate we
are progressing, it will take a century to reach $1 million for just the
information transfer part of the problem.
> Any thoughts?
>
> Dale Andreatta
>
(RWL): Said too much already probably - but need to remind everyone
that we need also in the Shell contest to tie efficiency in with health
aspects. Below Dean talks about "80 to 90% efficient" smoky fires. This is
just awful for a person's health. This (incomplete combustion) is one huge
problem that needs still even to be documented. But it is still possible to
make a huge improvement as you and Dean and AD are suggesting in the simple
process of transferring more of the (dirty or clean) gas heat into the
cookpot (or griddle or oven or .....). Thanks for the question and I hope
you are not yet discouraged. There is a lot of room for very exciting work
that will help billions of people. I know of no other problem with such a
big payoff with a small infusion of funds (and ideas).
Ron
>
> Parts of Dean Still's 9/19/01 message are included below.
> ***********************
> How to reduce the amount of biomass used for cooking
>
> Even smoky open fires are turning most of the combusting wood into heat.
> Smoky fires are often 80 to 90% efficient. On the other hand, the upper
> limit of heat transfer to the pot is around 50% in cooking stoves without
> fans. Frequently only 20% of the released heat from biomass makes it into
> the pot. A common rule in engineering, that improving the least efficient
> part of a machine results in the greatest gain in improving system
> efficiency, has directed stove researchers to concentrate on better ways
to
> capture a greater percentage of heat into pot(s). Since the hardest thing
to
> accomplish in a cooking stove is capturing the heat, improving the heat
> transfer efficiency determines to a large extent the fuel saving ability
of
> the stove. Achieving almost complete combustion cleans up emissions but it
> is of secondary importance when designing a stove that burns less wood.
>
> The important design principles that increase heat transfer to the pot(s)
> are:
>
> 1.) Force the heat to rub against as much of the pot(s) outer surface as
> possible. The heat is forced through small insulated ducts to scrape
against
> the pot(s).
>
> 2.) Insulate everywhere around the fire except where heat touches the
> pot(s). Insulation is made up of small isolated layers of air in a
> lightweight, relatively non-conductive material. Wood ash, firebrick, dead
> air spaces, pumice rock, perlite, vermiculite, etc. are good insulators
used
> in vernacular stoves.
>
> 3.) Get the pot near to the hot flames. The intense heat is much better at
> heating food than moderate heat.
>
> 4.) Metal pots conduct heat better than clay pots. Multiple pots capture
> more of the heat than single pots.
>
> 5.) Increase the speed of the heat as it hits the pots. Faster hot flue
> gases punch through the still air that surrounds the pot(s).
>
> -
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> http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
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>
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>
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>
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From ronallarson at qwest.net Fri Oct 5 13:46:36 2001
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:10 2004
Subject: In and out briefly
Message-ID: <091601c14dc5$03416d00$e3b16441@computer>
Hi stovers:
I had hoped to give a few
responses to a few messages after my vacation - but there were so many that
those responses now will have to wait. I believe there were over 100
in about 10 days - and I really found them great. My apologies to
anyone hoping for more feedback. I now only have time for one (next
message) - to Dale Andreatta.
The vacation was supposed to
have been just hiking (with the help of llamas) in some of the most arid,
mountainous areas of our state of Utah at the US' newest national monument
- Escalante. But we were led by a very skilled "survivalist" -or "stone
age reconstructionist" - Matt Graham. Needless to say we talked a lot
about making fires and he demonstrated (and I could not copy) his twirling stick
method. He carries the tools with him (a stick, a knife, and another
bottom piece which forms the hot coal). A careful notch in the bottom piece
allows the ember to fall out at the right time and be captured for blowing into
flame. Really amazing. He took about 20 seconds to do this, none of
the rest of us could do it in minutes. Need lots of speed AND
pressure. The use of the easier bow method is apparently for
sissies. He apparently knew those who recommended the very different
technique used by Tom Hanks in his recent movie about surviving on an island -
used by those with a lot of strength. By regulation, all of the
cooking (we had great meals from frozen food) on these trips is with bottled gas
- so there was no chance to talk about fire-shielding and three-stones,
etc. (We have mentioned several times on this list that skilled
rural cooks can use a pretty small amount of wood in a pretty clean fire.)
We did talk about the standard practice of the archaic native Americans of
cooking by dropping hot rocks into baskets to make their stews. He
demonstrated making arrow heads and spear points and showed us places from 000's
years back where peoples had practiced the art. With such a place the
artifacts slowly disappear, but we found (and left) about a dozen manufactured
points. Saw several matates (grinding stones) and at shops many for
sale. Matt demonstrated the art of trapping with deadfalls. This was a very
hard life, and I now have a much better appreciation of the skills of our
predecessors. Matt is soon to go out for a 6-month walk about with only
tools he has made himself! - not even taking a modern blanket or a steel
knife. I have no doubt that he will make it easily. He went barefoot
often (when not reverting to his hand-made sandals), has run marathons, drank
only unfiltered water, has taught courses in survival, etc.
In two days I leave for London
and the Shell Foundation meeting (which starts next Thursday). I
have exchanged mailings with Priya Karve, Liz Bates, Grant
Ballard-Tremeer, Dean Still, and Dan Kammen - and know I will see several other
list members. I also will be able to report separately on drying and
charcoaling work by our list's Andrew Heggie - who has also promised to take
Gretchen and I to a real English pub for lunch. Anyone have any special
requests re Shell? I will report back as fully as I can.
Ron
From crispin at newdawn.sz Fri Oct 5 16:15:16 2001
From: crispin at newdawn.sz (Crispin)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:10 2004
Subject: Basintuthu test with preheated primary air
Message-ID: <007201c14d75$299186c0$5ce80fc4@home>
Dear Stovers
The time draws nearer to when we can roll out the newest
member of the family.
I did a test of the production prototype Basintuthu with
preheated primary and secondary air. It has an intermittent sooty smoke
problem when the fire temperatures are high and the pot is cold. Perhaps
people can comment on.
Stove
- Basintuthu single pot cooker
Features
- preheated primary air supply
- preheated secondary air supply
- sheltered pot
- heat shield between the pot and the outer shell
- fire grate = 3mm mild steel
- air control by sliding cover over 5 x 40mm round holes (62
cm^2)
Fire
- Volume = 2.2 litres
- Fuel = low density pine scraps
- Ignition = 1 match and some brown paper
Combustion
- 2 minutes from match before steady secondary combustion
evident (no smoke, no pot)
- 5 minutes from ignition, time allowed to heat up the grate
and secondary air tube
Pot
- cast iron flat bottomed pot with cast iron lid, mass 6.82
kg
- capacity 3 litres
- temperature of pot and water = 22 deg C
Temperature rise
Minute
Temp Comment
0
22
Pot chilled the secondary gasses and some smoke
<FONT
size=2>3
40 Some black sooty
smoke, possibly gum in wood?
<FONT
size=2>4
49 Flames visible at
edge of pot, still some smoke
<FONT
size=2>5
58 Less
smoke
<FONT
size=2>6
65 Virtually
no smoke visible
<FONT
size=2>7
74 Pot
hissing
<FONT
size=2>8
82 Fire level checked -
down halfway in the grate
<FONT
size=2>9
90 Clean gasses, nearly
boiling
<FONT
size=2>9:45 95
Local boiling temp.
<FONT
size=2>10
95 Full Rolling
boil
<FONT
size=2>15 95
Fire refuelled with pine for surface temp
measurements
Air and Fire Temperatures
Temp Termocouple
Position
22
Incoming air
<FONT
size=2>76
Exterior of primary air tube measured through air inlet hole
<FONT
size=2>300 Primary
air entering grate (I have doubts about this one)
444
Secondary air entering fire through the top of the grate
when the air inlet is open
501
Secondary air entering fire through the top of the grate when the air inlet is
closed
710 Fire
temp at the top of the grate, dead centre (flame not sought) air inlet
closed
786 Fire
temp at the top of the grate, dead centre (flame not sought) air inlet
open
877
Flame temperature (max) in secondary combustion, thermocouple in
flame
195
Outer shell level with the top of the grate
155
Outer shell up 40mm from that point
146
Outer shell up 110mm from that point
<FONT
size=2>292 Air/ gas
temp between the pot and heat shield though this varies a lot as secondary
flames sometimes reach right around the pot.
The test was repeated with a shiny aluminum pot with 3 litres
of water in it. The colour may have affected the heat absorbtion.
The test was basically the same except there was a noticeable different in the
smoke production. The aluminum pot did not chill the gasses so much
and from minute 4 it was burning 'clean'.
It reached a full boil in nearly 9 minutes. This
represents about 10% faster heating.
I suspect this pot, now black, will heat up even faster the
second time around. Prof Anderson and I will try it tomorrow when he
arrives from Piggs Peak where he is stuck for the night with a leaking
radiator. We will also try to get an accurate temperature for the
preheated primary air. I suspect I was getting some radiative heating on
the pickup which is difficult to place accurately. The stove is open on
the bottom so it cannot be watched while measuring.
Regards to all
Crispin
From ronallarson at qwest.net Fri Oct 5 19:10:53 2001
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:10 2004
Subject: Basintuthu test with preheated primary air
In-Reply-To: <007201c14d75$299186c0$5ce80fc4@home>
Message-ID: <00cb01c14df2$91aad180$84b16441@computer>
Crispin:
Not sure yet what is going on
because of my being away. I apologize if this is redundant. On September
16 you talked about getting a picture and description on your web site but just
now I couldn't find anything new.
I'm still not sure whether you are lighting on top,
and whether you are getting any charcoal output. If not the former, I do
not think you can get the latter. If you are bottom lighting, I don't
think I can help much, but also am not surprised by a little smoke.
When you recharged with new fuel at 15 minutes,
what was the interior condition of the "coals"?
Sorry for not being more help, but I only
understand part of the geometry - and certainly not the means of reheating and
separating primary and secondary air supplies.
Ron
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
----- Original Message -----
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black">From:
Crispin
To: <A href="mailto:stoves@crest.org"
title=stoves@crest.org>Stoves
Sent: Friday, October 05, 2001 2:09
AM
Subject: Basintuthu test with preheated
primary air
Dear Stovers
<snip>
From mheat at mha-net.org Fri Oct 5 19:53:40 2001
From: mheat at mha-net.org (Norbert Senf)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:10 2004
Subject: Heat transfer to pots
In-Reply-To: <51320B39AB13D4118FDB00500486CC003663AC@colds01.fticorp.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011005154154.00dede00@127.0.0.1>
At 11:39 AM 2001-10-05 -0600, Ron Larson wrote:
>(snip) Probably a lot can be learned with a
>steady state approximation. I know of only a few modelers on this list and
>hope they will enter the discussion with ideas and references.
(snip)
Hello Stovers:
We have one document online that covers simplified finite element heat
transfer in two dimensions that can be done with a spreadsheet program. It
has a worked example for steady state heat transfer through furnace walls:
http://mha-net.org/msb/docs/spreadsheet.PDF
(3.4 Mb PDF file, 31 pages)
Best ....... Norbert
----------------------------------------
Norbert Senf---------- mheat@mha-net.org-nospam
Masonry Stove Builders (remove -nospam)
RR 5, Shawville------- www.heatkit.com
Quebec J0X 2Y0-------- fax:-----819.647.6082
---------------------- voice:---819.647.5092
-
Stoves List Archives and Website:
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For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
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From costaeec at kcnet.com Fri Oct 5 22:56:12 2001
From: costaeec at kcnet.com (James Dunham)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:10 2004
Subject: In and out briefly
In-Reply-To: <091601c14dc5$03416d00$e3b16441@computer>
Message-ID: <CEEJJCPBKMDPHAMPLNGPMEJOCAAA.costaeec@kcnet.com>
My
deepest gratitude to all who have been inquiring as to my status. I had no idea
there were so many great folks out there. It was overwhelming & quite
uplifting!
<FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>
I was
at the WTC shortly BEFORE the attack and then went directly to the Middle East
to launch our project. I actually lifted off just as the first hit
occurred. We saw the smoke from our windows (though did not
comprehend). I was totally unscathed (though forever scarred), but
detained for several days in trying to return. My plight was a minor
inconvenience, compared to others.
In
addition to the human tragedy, an additional sad result is that the
funding for a major biomass fuel project was lost when the
investors were reported as missing.
We
will move on!
I had
promised a synopsis on biomass densification & resulting fuel details. Sorry
for the delay. I will do that as time permits; perhaps in the next few days.
Again, much thanks for all the concern.
<FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>
Jim
Dunham
<FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----From: Ron Larson
[mailto:ronallarson@qwest.net]Sent: Friday, October 05, 2001 12:41
PMTo: stoves@crest.orgSubject: In and out
briefly
Hi stovers:
I had hoped to give a few
responses to a few messages after my vacation - but there were so many that
those responses now will have to wait. I believe there were over
100 in about 10 days - and I really found them great. My apologies
to anyone hoping for more feedback. I now only have time for one (next
message) - to Dale Andreatta.
The vacation was supposed to
have been just hiking (with the help of llamas) in some of the most arid,
mountainous areas of our state of Utah at the US' newest national
monument - Escalante. But we were led by a very skilled "survivalist"
-or "stone age reconstructionist" - Matt Graham. Needless to say we
talked a lot about making fires and he demonstrated (and I could not copy) his
twirling stick method. He carries the tools with him (a stick, a knife,
and another bottom piece which forms the hot coal). A careful notch in the
bottom piece allows the ember to fall out at the right time and be captured
for blowing into flame. Really amazing. He took about 20 seconds
to do this, none of the rest of us could do it in minutes. Need lots of
speed AND pressure. The use of the easier bow method is apparently
for sissies. He apparently knew those who recommended the very
different technique used by Tom Hanks in his recent movie about surviving on
an island - used by those with a lot of strength. By regulation,
all of the cooking (we had great meals from frozen food) on these trips is
with bottled gas - so there was no chance to talk about fire-shielding and
three-stones, etc. (We have mentioned several times on this
list that skilled rural cooks can use a pretty small amount of wood in a
pretty clean fire.) We did talk about the standard practice of the
archaic native Americans of cooking by dropping hot rocks into baskets to make
their stews. He demonstrated making arrow heads and spear points and
showed us places from 000's years back where peoples had practiced the
art. With such a place the artifacts slowly disappear, but we found (and
left) about a dozen manufactured points. Saw several matates (grinding
stones) and at shops many for sale. Matt demonstrated the art of trapping
with deadfalls. This was a very hard life, and I now have a much better
appreciation of the skills of our predecessors. Matt is soon to go out
for a 6-month walk about with only tools he has made himself! - not even
taking a modern blanket or a steel knife. I have no doubt that he will
make it easily. He went barefoot often (when not reverting to his
hand-made sandals), has run marathons, drank only unfiltered water, has taught
courses in survival, etc.
In two days I leave for London
and the Shell Foundation meeting (which starts next Thursday). I
have exchanged mailings with Priya Karve, Liz Bates, Grant
Ballard-Tremeer, Dean Still, and Dan Kammen - and know I will see several
other list members. I also will be able to report separately on drying
and charcoaling work by our list's Andrew Heggie - who has also promised to
take Gretchen and I to a real English pub for lunch. Anyone have any
special requests re Shell? I will report back as fully as I
can.
Ron
From jmdavies at xsinet.co.za Sat Oct 6 04:06:29 2001
From: jmdavies at xsinet.co.za (John Davies)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:10 2004
Subject: Basintuthu test with preheated primary air
Message-ID: <002601c14e3d$2fa998e0$3d7c27c4@jmdavies>
Hi Crispin,
Reading you report makes me think of the sooting problems experienced with a
steam locomotive. Please excuse the analogy used, but the problem appears to
be the same.
Whenever excess secondary air is lacking, long yellow flames are produced,
which enter the water cooled, flue tubes of the boiler. Removal of heat
extinguishes the flame and produces soot in the tubes. The cold cast iron
pot would appear to be causing the same result here.
The almost mirror surface of the aluminium pot reflects heat back into the
flame, allowing it to completely combust.
As with the locomotive, the answer would be to obtain full combustion before
the gasses touch the pot. ( cooling surface )
Two possibilities come to mind here. 1) allow a longer flamepath by raising
the pot.( increased secondary combustion height, which will also increase
the draft ) 2) produce a shorter flame by increased air supply.( which is in
keeping with the result of 1 )
Please ask yourself the following ? Have you taken into consideration that
hotter air has a larger volume per unit mass. this is possibly reducing the
excess air required for complete combustion.
Where does the heat come from for heating the air?, if it is cooling the
firebed, it is possible that heavier tar like gasses are being produced
which burn with a longer flame and require a higher air ratio. A hotter
firebed will decompose these tars to hydrogen and fine soot particles, which
burn easier.
If the preheating is cooling the firebed, it might be advantageous to do
less preheat.
Have you done similar temperature measurements with a standard stove for
comparison. I agree that radiated heat could be giving you some readings on
the high side, but the same would apply to the standard stove, allowing a
comparison to be made.
I hope that these comments will trigger your thought processes in the
direction of success.
Kindest regards,
John Davies.
************
>I did a test of the production prototype Basintuthu with preheated primary
and secondary air. It has an> intermittent sooty smoke problem when the
fire temperatures are high and the pot is cold. Perhaps people can comment
on.
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From crispin at newdawn.sz Sat Oct 6 07:07:25 2001
From: crispin at newdawn.sz (New Dawn Engineering / ATEX)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:10 2004
Subject: From the inputs so far
Message-ID: <003601c14e57$5495a8a0$ede80fc4@am29>
Dear Stovers
John Davies wrote
>Whenever excess secondary air is lacking, long yellow flames
>are produced,
The secondary flames are universally deep red. The only bright fellow
flames are along the edges of the flames where the secondary air meets the
primary smoke.
>Removal of heat extinguishes the flame ...The cold cast
>iron pot would appear to be causing the same result here.
I agree with this view. As soon as there is a thin hot layer of soot on the
pot's bottom AND the exterior of pot itself is hot, the remaining smoke
vanishes.
>Two possibilities come to mind here. 1) allow a longer
>flamepath by raising the pot.
The newest version has an increased pot height for that very reason. I
hoped the small increase in draft wold allow the semi-anthritic coal to burn
but it is not enough to get a useful heat. I fear that there is now too
much air in general as the heat output has increase rather beyond what is
needed for a single pot.
>2) produce a shorter flame by increased air supply.
My take on this is to reduce the air input altogether and run a test at a
reduced power output. The effect of closing the air supply (which does not
choke it off completely as there are little gaps all over the place) is to
drive the vertical position of the secondary combustion downwards. The
height difference is significant. The original Tso-Tso Stove had less air
supply allowed and it puts out less power. The major part of the combustion
takes place at or below the upper edge of the grate. The chilling of the
long flames under the pot are inescapable if the fire is too big.
>...this is possibly reducing the excess air required for
>complete combustion.
My first impresion is that putting a small piece low mass, not-very-dense of
pine into the grate when it is really hot, causes the wood to nearly explode
into gasses. This forces out the uncombusted gasses to chill in the outside
air. Once we made a big black cloud emerge! When the thin piece is
consumed, the correct combustion resumes. I think it may also be a fuel
type problem.
I have chopped up a few dead branches from a dreadful little tree in the
back of the yard. These are pretty hard, varying in diameter from 5 to
25mm. We will use these today. When it is hot we can put in a piece of
this lousy pine and see what happens. It may not happen when the fire is
turned down.
I just heard Paul Anderson is getting the car fixed and will be on his way
from Piggs Peak in a few minutes. C'mon Paul!
>Where does the heat come from for heating the air?
The grate heats the secondary air tube. The secondary air tube heats the
primary air tube.
>...if it is cooling the firebed
That is not happening. The thing is too small to organize that.
>If the preheating is cooling the firebed, it might be advantageous to do
less preheat.
I have not got a figure for an optimal secondary preheat. The Tsotso with
secondary preheating achieves about 320 C max. We are getting 180 above
that - is it necessary?
Ron Larson wrote
>...you talked about getting a picture and description on your
>web site but just now I couldn't find anything new.
I sent the pics to Toronto but I don't see them either. It isn't much to
look at. Just a cheesy drawing of the air flow. The primary air tube is
not shown yet.
>I'm still not sure whether you are lighting on top, and
>whether you are getting any charcoal output.
It is lit from the bottom. Primary air enters mostly through the bottom of
the grate. Ash falls through as it is generated. There is no charcoal left
at all. After a burn of about 1 to 1.5 kg of wood there is a few
tablespoons of white ash. By that I means the entire fire burns down.
There are no lumps left. I think the residual heat in the grate ensures the
last lump is burned away.
>[I] also am not surprised by a little smoke.
There isn't any smoke most of the time. It is a very clean burn, but when
there is smoke I report it seeking explanations. The chilling effect of the
pot on secondary combustion is very noticeable. When the pot is removed the
smoke disappears again. Significantly, the grey smoke that one sees when
lighting up and heating the grate never recurs. It is only this sooty black
smoke that comes with the combination of the fire being on max and the pot
being cold.
>When you recharged with new fuel at 15 minutes,
>what was the interior condition of the "coals"?
Significantly charcoaled, glowing bright red, flames just above that and
dark red/orange secondary fire above that, small amount of ash at the
bottom, zero visible smoke. Perfect fire to look at.
Dear Still asks
>Are the temps in F or C?
They are all in C. I think it is illegal to sell a Farenheit thermometer
here, O ye of quaint instrumentation.
Regards
Crispin
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From Carefreeland at aol.com Sat Oct 6 08:00:02 2001
From: Carefreeland at aol.com (Carefreeland@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:10 2004
Subject: carbonisation
Message-ID: <d4.cf080f8.28f04b0c@aol.com>
Richard,
I am glad you brought this point up about balancing the composting
action. When I build a compost pile I always try to balance the "green with
the brown."
If you use too much green, high nitrogen material such as grass, green
leaves, or garden waste, the process gets too wet and becomes sealed and
anerobic. This results in a sharp ammonia odor. Often the lower layers won't
decompose at all. If you add twigs and branches or stalks, the air passages
allow for aerobic decomposition. The Ammonia turns to nitrate.
If you use too much "brown material" high in carbon and cellulose, low in
nitrogen, the pile breathes almost too much and tends to dry out. Also, with
this condition, there is little nitrogen to sustain any organisims which
decompose the material.
What is happening on the ground with the sugarcane leaves is the same
process. Addition of manure or animal bedding also behaves like the grass
because of all of the "fixed nitrogen" contained.
Important concept.
I would be intrested to note if your wet process for your briquettes also
removes some nitrogen and leaches some potash from your product. This should
result in a cleaner burn. Ideally you should have mostly cellulose to
squeeze.
I am very curious about this clay as a binder that many of the
briquetters are using. Is it just the heat retention factor, or is a chemical
catalytic action in effect. With your broad experiance maybe you can shed
some light.
When smelting Iron, often silicon is present and lime is often added if
not in the ore. Both seem to have a fluxing action. I have seen some very
old slags from clay based ore, and they resemble blackish or greenish glass.
There are a rainbow of other minerals also present, literally. The sunlight
makes the slag look like oil on water. I suspect the silicon is bonding to
traces of impuritys. The lime is known to clean sulfur and phosporus from
the iron. Maybe something is here?
Daniel Dimiduk
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From Carefreeland at aol.com Sat Oct 6 08:23:46 2001
From: Carefreeland at aol.com (Carefreeland@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:10 2004
Subject: carbonisation
Message-ID: <b0.1b5b8cae.28f05097@aol.com>
Tom,
Are higher tempratures associated with stronger hydrocarbon bonds making
for more persistant tars and other chemicals? I belive you have more
detailed knowledge of these processes.
I know that as a rule, in pesticides, the more persistant a chemical is
in the food chain, the more likely it is to cause cancer. Could the contrast
of very hot and very cold places side by side in burning green wood also have
something to do with the chemical composition occuring here? Tell us some
more of what you know about the formation of these persistant chemicals, and
their hazzards.
I would think that in dry wood, the even heating would crack the big
chemical molecules to smaller more combustable ones more consistantly. I am
curious as to the role of temprature here, versis rapid changing temprature.
When you quench steel you freeze a certain crystal structure causing the
hardness. If you let it cool slowly the crystals settle into another pattern
leaving the material softer. Maybe there is a parallel here.
We can all learn from your extensive knowledge here. In laymans terms?
Daniel Dimiduk
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From Carefreeland at aol.com Sat Oct 6 09:28:24 2001
From: Carefreeland at aol.com (Carefreeland@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:10 2004
Subject: Aren't wood stoves carbon dioxide-neutral?
Message-ID: <74.1131b534.28f05ec5@aol.com>
Crispin,
The net loss of carbon in the soil is caused by the breakdown of the
cycles of decomposition and humic acid retention. When an area is clear cut
(the only way to start a monoculture) the soil is exposed to drying,
oxidation and erosion. Even the pH of the soil can shift. Wildlife animal
groupings specific to the plant environment are also very critical to the
balance.
The monoculture replacement does not allow for support of the diversity
of canopy and soil structures. This makes it less efficient overall as a soil
builder. Like round stones with no mortar, the system has holes for energy
to escape.
The balanced ecosystem is like an aggregate with small lifeforms filling
in and supporting the larger systems in a multidimensional structure. This
can only be accomplished by mimicking natures own ways. Half a billion years
of evolution have perfected and optimized these harmonious groupings. We
have a long way to go to reproduce this system, so why can't we just learn to
work with it.
Daniel Dimiduk
Shangri-La Research and Development Co.
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From ronallarson at qwest.net Sat Oct 6 10:44:05 2001
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:10 2004
Subject: Heat transfer to pots
In-Reply-To: <51320B39AB13D4118FDB00500486CC003663AC@colds01.fticorp.com>
Message-ID: <004401c14e74$e6954680$436ae1cf@computer>
Norbert:
Thanks very much.
I downloaded it (always slow for me when it is a PDF file) and am
printing now. I will take it with me and use for light bedtime reading.
Fortunately I have background in both modeling (more finite difference than
finite element) and Excel and think I might be able to do much of what I
wanted with this program. Nevertheless, if any list member has other cheap
and useful programs for doing this, I still hope that they will let us know.
Ron
----- Original Message -----
From: Norbert Senf <mheat@mha-net.org>
To: Ron Larson <ronallarson@qwest.net>; <stoves@crest.org>
Sent: Friday, October 05, 2001 1:48 PM
Subject: Re: Heat transfer to pots
> At 11:39 AM 2001-10-05 -0600, Ron Larson wrote:
> >(snip) Probably a lot can be learned with a
> >steady state approximation. I know of only a few modelers on this list
and
> >hope they will enter the discussion with ideas and references.
> (snip)
>
> Hello Stovers:
>
> We have one document online that covers simplified finite element heat
> transfer in two dimensions that can be done with a spreadsheet program. It
> has a worked example for steady state heat transfer through furnace walls:
>
> http://mha-net.org/msb/docs/spreadsheet.PDF
>
> (3.4 Mb PDF file, 31 pages)
>
> Best ....... Norbert
>
>
> ----------------------------------------
> Norbert Senf---------- mheat@mha-net.org-nospam
> Masonry Stove Builders (remove -nospam)
> RR 5, Shawville------- www.heatkit.com
> Quebec J0X 2Y0-------- fax:-----819.647.6082
> ---------------------- voice:---819.647.5092
>
>
>
>
>
>
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From crispin at newdawn.sz Sat Oct 6 12:21:29 2001
From: crispin at newdawn.sz (Crispin)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:10 2004
Subject: Paul arrices!
Message-ID: <007901c14e1d$a90e7680$41e80fc4@home>
Dear Stovers
Well, Paul and Jack have arrived in Swaziland at last - at the end of a long
rope! Oh well. I think they will be here for a while!
Regards
Crispin
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From ronallarson at qwest.net Sat Oct 6 21:43:23 2001
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:10 2004
Subject: From the inputs so far
Message-ID: <005f01c14ed1$0513ce40$aab16441@computer>
Crispin (following up on your message
today): Main
points: 1. I hope you
will try the top lighting approach with the newgeometry. I am
not sure what will happen with so many side holes in thegrate. It
would make me happier to suggest a test if you could either a)control only
the primary air (letting the amount of secondary air bedetermined by the
pressure differences that develop naturally), or be)controlling both primary
and secondary air separately. To control both witha single closure
looks dangerous with top lighting (and maybe with bottomlighting as
well). I have been doing a); Tom has turned to
be). 2. When I made
modifications to the Tso back in 1995 in Zimbabwe,I think I had only
holes in the bottom of the grate - and it was air tothese that I was
controlling. The secondary air came in only at the top ofthe grate
(with a "seal" where the rolled top of the grate sits) I'm
notsure of your combustion chamber height or that which I used, but I'm
nowguessing it was taller than yours. This would eliminate some of the
sootingproblem - as you have already
noted. 3. I can't
remember who did something like a) but with lots of sideholes (like yours)
and it seemed to work very well. (Anyone claim this?)I was always
amazed that it worked - but it is all a question of the smallpressure drops
(which are still surprising to me as an Electrical Engineer).The drops are
needed to balance the equations - because the huge hot ,gas
production inside the fuel and combustion chambers necessitates
apressure drop - not a rise). This pressure difference (lower inside)
isvery apparent when you look at the (very steady, inward directed,
diffusion)secondary air flames (these are the inverse of what we see
with a burningmatch - but look the same (air rather than fuel on the inside
of the flame).But the 15-20 cm of combustion chamber above the secondary air
holes gives amuch stronger flame than that with a
match. 4. Those of us doing top lighting
will probably all claim that youwill get a better looking flame (and
charcoal as a side benefit) because thegases coming up to meet the secondary
air are better. With an upward movingpyrolysis front (from bottom
lighting), the (upward moving, primary) airsupply first sees charcoal and
first combusts it, giving mostly CO2, not thegases that can be combusted
higher up. With a downward moving pyrolysis front, the
(upward moving) primary airis smaller (by design), and if CO2 is produced,
will be converted back to COusing the charcoal above it. Now mixing
with secondary air allows a betterflame, as it contains essentially no
CO2. If you can control the secondaryair, you have the prospect of
getting closer to stochiometric conditions,and can avoid cooling down the
flame with too much excess secondary air. Ichose not to take that
route (the be) route) since I seemed to be alwaysgetting about 10-12% oxygen
in the exhaust gases and that (apparently, notyet good data) ensured
complete combustion. Maybe it is just serendipitousthat option a)
works - but clearly one can have too much secondary air -which is why Tom
Reed has used approach be) when he employs blower
power. 5. Just a few more thoughts on the side
holes. Perhaps you can testsomething about their value (and there may
be lot even with top lighting),by plugging different percentages with
clay. This could be something likecontrolling the amount of secondary
air - which I think you want to lead tomaybe an excess air ratio of 1.5 to 2
(exit Oxygen % of 8 to 12 %)(Do you have a meter for making that
measurement? I borrowed mine once. -Anyone able to suggest a low
cost source for such instrumentation?)See a few more notes
below:----- Original Message -----From: New Dawn Engineering / ATEX
<crispin@newdawn.sz>To: Stoves
<stoves@crest.org>; Jeremy &
Minaxshi Pemberton-Pigott<<A
href="mailto:fuzzychaos@home.com">fuzzychaos@home.com>Sent: Saturday,
October 06, 2001 5:05 AMSubject: From the inputs so far>
Dear Stovers>> John Davies wrote
<snip>> >2) produce a shorter flame by increased air
supply.>> My take on this is to reduce the air input altogether
and run a test at a> reduced power output. The effect of closing
the air supply (which doesnot> choke it off completely as there are
little gaps all over the place) is to> drive the vertical position of the
secondary combustion downwards. The> height difference is
significant. The original Tso-Tso Stove had less air> supply
allowed and it puts out less power. The major part of
thecombustion> takes place at or below the upper edge of the
grate. The chilling of the> long flames under the pot are
inescapable if the fire is too big.>
(RWL): I agree with Crispin that reducing rather than increasing
airsupply (per John) should reduce flame height. I hope John can
clarify thesituation he is thinking of.> >...this is possibly
reducing the excess air required for> >complete
combustion.>> My first impresion is that putting a small piece low
mass, not-very-denseof> pine into the grate when it is really hot,
causes the wood to nearlyexplode> into gasses. This forces out
the uncombusted gasses to chill in theoutside> air. Once we
made a big black cloud emerge! When the thin piece is> consumed,
the correct combustion resumes. I think it may also be a fuel> type
problem.> (RWL): I have experienced this same
"explosion" phenomenon when playingaround with adding extra fuel to the top
of a top lit, charcoal making (IDD)stove. But my situation is that the
top of the fuel is always very near thesecondary air supply (as I find it
works better that way). So new addedfuel is getting heated from all
sides (via radiation, conduction andconvection) at a pretty high temperature
- the pyrolysis gases are drivenout rapidly and can ignite
immediately. <snip>>> Ron Larson
wrote> >...you talked about getting a picture and description on
your> >web site but just now I couldn't find anything
new.>> I sent the pics to Toronto but I don't see them
either. It isn't much to> look at. Just a cheesy drawing of
the air flow. The primary air tube is> not shown
yet.> (RWL): I sent your most recent also to
Alex. Hopefully others can lookalso at your design. Nice
figure!! Would you repeat the number and size of the grate
holes?> >I'm still not sure whether you are lighting on top,
and> >whether you are getting any charcoal output.>> It
is lit from the bottom. Primary air enters mostly through the
bottomof> the grate. Ash falls through as it is
generated. There is no charcoalleft> at all. After a burn
of about 1 to 1.5 kg of wood there is a few> tablespoons of white
ash. By that I means the entire fire burns down.> There are no
lumps left. I think the residual heat in the grate ensuresthe>
last lump is burned away.> (RWL): Thanks for
the clarification. Could you give some dimensions ofthe grate and the
heighth of the wood supply when at both/either 1 and 1.5kg
loading? Can you fire equally well loadings to any
height?
<snip> Thanks for the remaining
(snipped) answers, the only missing thing nowis how you are preheating the
primary air supply, but I don't think that iscritical for my
understanding> Regards> Crispin(rwl)
Same - Say hello to Paul for all of us. Tell him he owes us areport on
New Dawn Engineering.
Ron
From dstill at epud.net Sat Oct 6 23:45:18 2001
From: dstill at epud.net (Dean Still)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:10 2004
Subject: Heat transfer to pots
Message-ID: <001801c14dca$98f96be0$4615210c@default>
Dear Stovers,
What a great discussion on heat transfer to pots!
One of my friends at Aprovecho once made an guess-timate that I've hoped
was inaccurate.
He figured that if exit temperatures out of the chimney were around 250F
(which he supposed was needed to keep sufficient draft going) then given the
amount of air running through the stove, it wouldn't be possible to achieve
better than around 50% efficiency.
Has anyone figured this out? What is the top limit on a stove if we rely on
natural convection to create the draft?
Best,
Dean
-
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http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
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For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm
From karve at wmi.co.in Sun Oct 7 00:35:21 2001
From: karve at wmi.co.in (karve)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:10 2004
Subject: database project
Message-ID: <00b701c14ee9$58d84700$442033ca@karve>
Stovers,
This is to report on the
stoves archives database project.
I now have two students who
will start the work from October 15. Paul Anderson and I have worked out the
procedure and have selected four broad topics for classification of the
messages. Paul and Nick Nayak are providing the funds for the students' stipend,
I will do the overall supervision of the work with help from Ron whenever
necessary, and Appropriate Rural Technology Institute has agreed to route the
money through its account. I have already briefed the students and they are keen
and enthusiastic about the work... so we are all set to go.
I will report on the progress
from time to time.
<FONT color=#000000
size=2> Let's all welcome aboard the two students - Ms. Mrudul
Sahasrabudhe and Mr. Prasad Bokil - who
are taking up the work.
<FONT
color=#000000>Regards,
Priyadarshini Karve
Dr. Priyadarshini KarveLecturer in Physics, Sinhgad College of Engineering,
Pune, India.Member, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute, Pune,
India.Founder Member, Sandarbh (an organisation devoted to science and
education), Pune, India.
Address for correspondence: 6, Koyna Apartments,
S.No.133, Kothrud, Pune 411 029, IndiaPhone:
91-020-5442217/5423258E-mail: <A
href="mailto:karve@wmi.co.in">karve@wmi.co.in / <A
href="mailto:adkarve@pn2.vsnl.net.in">adkarve@pn2.vsnl.net.in
From karve at wmi.co.in Sun Oct 7 00:35:50 2001
From: karve at wmi.co.in (karve)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:10 2004
Subject: BFCS-2000 conference proceedings
Message-ID: <00b801c14ee9$5a7be4e0$442033ca@karve>
Stovers,
The proceedings of the
International Conference on Biomass-based Fuels and Cooking Systems are now
ready. It is a 300+ pages document (A4 size) containing 27 of the 35 papers
presented at the conference in Pune.
All the registered conference
delegates and the sponsors will get their (free) copies by mail. A few extra
copies are available for sale (in paper or CD format). The price is Rs.700
(inclusive of bank commission) plus packaging and postage, for residents of
India and neighbouring countries, and USD 20 (inclusive of bank commission) plus
packaging and postage, for residents of the rest of the world. Please send the
money by draft or cheque drawn in favour of 'Appropriate Rural Technology
Institute', payable at Pune, India. Considering the problems we had in
electronic transfers at the time of the conference, I advise not to go in for
this option.
Those of you who wish to buy
copies, please write to me or A.D. Karve (<A
href="mailto:adkarve@pn2.vsnl.net.in">adkarve@pn2.vsnl.net.in) for the
packaging and postage charges to your preferred destination. <FONT
color=#000000 size=2>
Regards,
Priyadarshini
Karve
Dr. Priyadarshini KarveLecturer in Physics, Sinhgad College of Engineering,
Pune, India.Member, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute, Pune,
India.Founder Member, Sandarbh (an organisation devoted to science and
education), Pune, India.
Address for correspondence: 6, Koyna Apartments,
S.No.133, Kothrud, Pune 411 029, IndiaPhone:
91-020-5442217/5423258E-mail: <A
href="mailto:karve@wmi.co.in">karve@wmi.co.in / <A
href="mailto:adkarve@pn2.vsnl.net.in">adkarve@pn2.vsnl.net.in
From mheat at mha-net.org Sun Oct 7 05:50:06 2001
From: mheat at mha-net.org (Norbert Senf)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:10 2004
Subject: Heat transfer to pots
In-Reply-To: <001801c14dca$98f96be0$4615210c@default>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011007053346.00b99e70@127.0.0.1>
Hello Dean:
You'd have to qualify the chimney type, for example single wall metal,
before you could come up with a rule of thumb.
From Jim White's paper on chimneys, it is evident that the amount of draft
is a function of average stack temperature and chimney height, if you
ignore friction. So, theoretically at least, you could have a very tall,
perfectly insulated low mass chimney and get as much draft as you want from
a low exit temperature. On the other hand, losses through single wall metal
pipe would limit the exit temperature, and therefore the maximum draft.
Granted, insulated chimneys are expensive and perhaps not practical.
However, they should be able to give you some of the same benefits as a blower.
Best ....... Norbert
At 11:21 AM 2001-10-05 -0700, Dean Still wrote:
>Dear Stovers,
>
>What a great discussion on heat transfer to pots!
>
> One of my friends at Aprovecho once made an guess-timate that I've hoped
>was inaccurate.
>
>He figured that if exit temperatures out of the chimney were around 250F
>(which he supposed was needed to keep sufficient draft going) then given the
>amount of air running through the stove, it wouldn't be possible to achieve
>better than around 50% efficiency.
>
>Has anyone figured this out? What is the top limit on a stove if we rely on
>natural convection to create the draft?
----------------------------------------
Norbert Senf---------- mheat@mha-net.org-nospam
Masonry Stove Builders (remove -nospam)
RR 5, Shawville------- www.heatkit.com
Quebec J0X 2Y0-------- fax:-----819.647.6082
---------------------- voice:---819.647.5092
-
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For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm
From ronallarson at qwest.net Sun Oct 7 10:22:15 2001
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:10 2004
Subject: Heat transfer to pots
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011007053346.00b99e70@127.0.0.1>
Message-ID: <000001c14f3b$063843e0$8ab06441@computer>
Norbert - I agree with your analysis below - we can approach 100%
efficiency with tall insulated clever units for transferring heat inwards
(where we are generating steam).
I hadn't visited your web site for several years. It is now full of
fascinating avenues to explore further - and I will try again in a week.
I now know where Greermount is - but not Shawville. Just off your map?
Or do you have two homes? You need a picture of you and your own family -
as well as your neighbors. Or did I miss it.
I got through to the Count Rumford site. Both Tom Reed and I have read
the collected works - so this is a chance to help others learn more about
Rumford's word 200 years ago on stove design. How about your explaining the
relationship of his work to your own. Readers of the Rumford work will come
away with an appreciation of using steam for cooking.
I had bread fresh out of a horno 10 days ago. I saw one reviewer's
claim that one could be built for $100 - and think the one I saw could have
been built for about that price. Could you comment on the efficiency
aspects of a $100 horno? When I return, I am going to look more carefully
at your recommended books - too many to consider right now!
I tried to reach the Princeton cookstoves link - but didn't make it.
Could you see if it is shown correctly on your web site? I have been there
before but have lost the link.
Again, thanks for reminding me to look again at your web site. You are
doing great work! Our stoves work would be over if we could get the home
heaters working on $10 cook stoves. (For others - Norbert emphasizes do it
yourself and kits, as well as links to professionals building stoves. I
encourage a look at his web site.)
Dean - Besides Norbert's cook stove chimney theory below - I think that the
fact that domestic water heaters (ALL are natural draft I think) operate
regularly above 95% efficiency says that more than 50% can be done more
generally. We just need to find a way to invert the geometry a bit.
Last night I thought of a possible way to build a cheap heat transfer
unit that might do part of this job. Anyone reading this who is also going
to London/Shell is encouraged to raise the subject there. This way I may
not look quite as dumb when I try describing it after our return.
Talk to you all soon.
Ron
----- Original Message -----
From: Norbert Senf <mheat@mha-net.org>
To: Dean Still <dstill@epud.net>; Ron Larson <ronallarson@qwest.net>;
<stoves@crest.org>
Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2001 3:51 AM
Subject: Re: Heat transfer to pots
> Hello Dean:
>
> You'd have to qualify the chimney type, for example single wall metal,
> before you could come up with a rule of thumb.
>
> From Jim White's paper on chimneys, it is evident that the amount of
draft
> is a function of average stack temperature and chimney height, if you
> ignore friction. So, theoretically at least, you could have a very tall,
> perfectly insulated low mass chimney and get as much draft as you want
from
> a low exit temperature. On the other hand, losses through single wall
metal
> pipe would limit the exit temperature, and therefore the maximum draft.
>
> Granted, insulated chimneys are expensive and perhaps not practical.
> However, they should be able to give you some of the same benefits as a
blower.
>
> Best ....... Norbert
>
> At 11:21 AM 2001-10-05 -0700, Dean Still wrote:
> >Dear Stovers,
> >
> >What a great discussion on heat transfer to pots!
> >
> > One of my friends at Aprovecho once made an guess-timate that I've
hoped
> >was inaccurate.
> >
> >He figured that if exit temperatures out of the chimney were around 250F
> >(which he supposed was needed to keep sufficient draft going) then given
the
> >amount of air running through the stove, it wouldn't be possible to
achieve
> >better than around 50% efficiency.
> >
> >Has anyone figured this out? What is the top limit on a stove if we rely
on
> >natural convection to create the draft?
>
> ----------------------------------------
> Norbert Senf---------- mheat@mha-net.org-nospam
> Masonry Stove Builders (remove -nospam)
> RR 5, Shawville------- www.heatkit.com
> Quebec J0X 2Y0-------- fax:-----819.647.6082
> ---------------------- voice:---819.647.5092
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -
> Stoves List Archives and Website:
> http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
> http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
>
> Stoves List Moderators:
> Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
> Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
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>
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> http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml
>
> For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
> http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm
>
>
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From psanders at ilstu.edu Mon Oct 8 03:55:42 2001
From: psanders at ilstu.edu (psanders@ilstu.edu)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:11 2004
Subject: Stoves contact in southern Africa
Message-ID: <530146208.1002527467586.JavaMail.root@mail.ilstu.edu>
Dear Stovers,
I am just finishing 36 glorious hours with Crispin and his wife Margaret in Swaziland.
Crispin's factory is IMPRESSIVE to me. He has quality products and quality equipment. I encourage you to check his website (which I could only access via Internet Explorer, not Netscape. -- tell Crispin your experience if you cannot get in via Netscape.) newdawn-engineering.com
He and I have talked for hours about both briquettes and stoves (both his and Tom Reed's) Similarities and differences. Good exchange of ideas. And some experimentation will occur. The recognition and separation of primary and secondary combustion are being considered, as well as pre-heating of the P&S air. I can see some major improvements coming in the near future. Tom Reed and I are talking of making some natural convection woodgas IDD stoves for Mozambique (or elsewhere in Africa) in the near future (early 2002). Very possible that Crispin could have a role in the design and production of prototypes and finished products.
Tom (and others who might be interested): We need to give thought to the start-up money to get stove production for 10s, 100s and 1000s. We need to have that ready when design issues are concluded. I do not wish to have delays.
One main aspect of Crispin's operation is that he can produce metal products with quality machine work and designs.
Briquette issues are on-going. Variables include: size, materials, role of hole, shape, density, method of pressing, and marketing. No conclusions because so many variables impact each of the other variables. I go to Mozambique today where I will see the "Stanley" version of briquettes.
I must head to town to get a bus to Mozambique.
I am NOT able to read all the e-mail while on this trip, so if some reply from you needs my attention, be sure the subject line gets my attention.
Noeli: Please get a copy of this to Ed.
Paul
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From rstanley at legacyfound.org Mon Oct 8 12:21:13 2001
From: rstanley at legacyfound.org (Richard Stanley)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:11 2004
Subject: Stoves contact in southern Africa
In-Reply-To: <530146208.1002527467586.JavaMail.root@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <3BC16F19.7AF7EAB4@legacyfound.org>
Paul,
Good report form Swaziland and the meetign with Crispin.
However in response to your comment about the briquettes you refer to as the 'stanley version' I must offer the following:
I have never had a hand in training anyone in or from Mozambique. I have only assisted you at the outset while you were in the states. It is a moot point anyway: What has emerged by way of briquettes with holes is not due to me alone but hundreds who have participated in refining them all over the place, not to mention my mentor, Ben Bryant. This new internet based development process really seems to require a new definition of ownership, doesn't it ?
The briquette should take on a Mozambiquan indentity. Viz., "Nkhuni za Makono" in Malawu, "Kuni za Leo" in Kenya , "Huni Itsva" in Zimbabwe, "Briquettas Inti" in Peru and so forth. I am eager to learn what it be called by your Mozambiquan counterparts as they participate in refining it and taking over control of its development (hopefully on a commercial basis) in their own environment ?
Richard Stanley
>
>
> -
> Stoves List Archives and Website:
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>
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>
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From tmiles at trmiles.com Mon Oct 8 13:42:33 2001
From: tmiles at trmiles.com (Tom Miles)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:11 2004
Subject: 5th Biomass Conference of the Americas Cancelled
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011008103637.02464260@pop3.norton.antivirus>
5th Biomass Conference of the Americas Cancelled
The 5th Biomass Conference of the Americas,
originally scheduled for September 17-21, and under consideration for
rescheduling, has been canceled. The Conference was canceled primarily
because of indications of a significant number of cancellations,
particularly non-U.S. attendees and speakers as well as the logistics of
rescheduling this major event. As a result, Conference Organizers are
making plans to provide
refunds
to those of you who have pre-paid for the Conference and its
activities.
We would like to express our sincere apologies for the inconvenience that
this cancellation may have caused. We also want to thank all of you who
have been involved in the organization of the conference as well as those
who have provided abstracts and papers.
If you have comments or questions please contact the conference
organizers
at
bcotacancel@nrel.gov.
Thomas R
Miles tmiles@trmiles.com
T R Miles,
TCI Tel
503-292-0107
1470 SW Woodward Way Fax
503-292-2919
Portland, OR 97225 USA
From costaeec at kcnet.com Mon Oct 8 22:27:57 2001
From: costaeec at kcnet.com (James Dunham)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:11 2004
Subject: briquetting technology
Message-ID: <CEEJJCPBKMDPHAMPLNGPOEKDCAAA.costaeec@kcnet.com>
Ron & All,
I promised a bit of info on biomass densification, as I understand it. I
certainly am no expert, but have designed & built many plants, over many
years, in many continents, using all major brands of equipment, with many
different raw materials, for many different end-uses. Perhaps a basic
education would be helpful, and I am pleased to contribute anything I can
(except expensive machinery).
First, let's define some terms. I would rather not use the terms 'developing
nation' or 'third world', as we are all in the same world and all
developing...some are simply a bit more developed than others. I think it
was Tom Reed who once clarified the difference between densification and
briquetting. I found the post humorous because it was exactly correct, yet
seemingly impossible to change peoples vocabulary. I have given up trying,
so whatever term you prefer is O.K., so long as we don't confuse the issue.
Though it is not proper terminology, we will include the term 'briquettes'
in this discussion. This includes as round wafers, much like a hockey puck,
ranging from 50 to 150mm in diameter and from 5-15mm thick. The difference
in size depends only on the machinery. The higher capacity machines produce
a larger wafer.
Holes, no holes, many holes, stacking methods, stove details, etc., etc.,
are minor issues if the fuel is made properly. High density briquettes burn
with such intensity, there is no need for enhancements or modifications.
There are three basic degrees of densification. They are as follows:
Low Density; This includes a multitude of products made by hand or small
machines. It usually requires a binder, considerable labor, and the finished
product has relatively low heat values, high emissions, heavy ash, and high
cost in terms of man-hours. It is not the best product, but can be produced
by anyone and is the only product possible in some circumstances. (ELK &
others have far more knowledge in this area than we do)
Medium Density; This would basically be the output of hydraulic
densification equipment. Heat value, emissions, ash, etc. are better than
low density products. The equipment is moderately priced, but maintenance is
high & the product questionable. We use this at times when we are simply
trying to reduce the volume of a waste product prior to shipping and
disposing.
High Density; This includes products made by 'screw extrusion' or 'ram &
die' equipment. Either produces a rock-hard product which burns with immense
heat, nearly no smoke or ash and is easily handled, stored, fed, and
stokered into burners. Screw machines, such as Shimada, produce a continuous
product with a hole in the center, which is fine for fireplace logs, but not
easily reduced to wafers for fuel purposes. The ram & die machines operate
by a massive piston which forces the material through a tapered die. The
forces and heat negate any need for binders, thus reducing cost and
emissions.
Our primary focus is high density briquetting of biomass materials for
retail fireplace logs and fuel wafers for industrial and home use. We have
used materials ranging from discarded currency to straw and about every
imaginable material in between. They all work basically the same, with minor
adjustments to the feed rate and die restrictive pressure. A ram and die
machine needs only a piston change to convert from logs to wafers. All end
products are very similar to pellets, except bigger.
The only two major limitations for using this equipment is the horsepower
requirements (25-150) and the moisture limits (10% for screw extruders,
6-15% for ram & die). High moisture materials must be dried and this can be
difficult or expensive. IC engines may be used for the power. Material size
is important, but may range from dust up to 1/4 inch and may be mixed.
Output of the machines ranges from 200-6000kg/hr. Operating costs have a
wide range, due to the variations in materials and finished products. Large
scale pucks, made from dry sawdust, can be produced for less than one cent
per kg. In the USA and many other countries, all production costs can be
offset by receiving a 'tipping fee' for disposing of the waste of others,
thus resulting in a 'free' product. The key cost element is freight.
The technology has been proven over 59 years of highly varied usage. We
still have machines in production which were built in 1956. The questions
begin with a sustainable supply of raw materials and an end use which
justifies the process. Capital is always a big issue, but proformas can be
developed which can readily justify the investment, if the basic elements
are in place. Even in less developed areas, where there is no profit motive,
grants are often available if the need is clearly demonstrated.
I am often perplexed as to why so many of the less developed areas are so
reluctant to learn from those who have preceded them. Certainly not all want
to be as 'developed' as others, but when it is a matter of basic
necessities, such as heat and cooking, I hope we can contribute in some
acceptable way.
One of the simplest forms of producing fuel briquettes might be patterned
after a method used in the USA a century ago and still used today. Small
grain farmers could not afford grain processing equipment, so the took bags
of grain to a regional processing center where the grain was ground into
feed and flour. The farmer left a portion of his grain with the miller as
payment for the service. Today the miller is a 'cooperative' with numerous
products for which the farmer can trade his grain or receive 'credits'.
We were once asked to help a village in the Middle East with fuel
production. While there we noticed the women spent their entire morning
carrying water from a distant stream. We suggested an engine to pump the
water and then use the engine to power a briquetting plant and then to power
a generator in the evening. Villagers contributed wood to the regional
pump-fuel-electrical operation and received briquettes and electricity in
exchange. The women then began making woven quilts for sale to the west and
soon they had cash to buy other merchandise.
Won't work everywhere, but the concept makes for good study.
In summary; fuel briquettes-wafers-disks-pucks-whatever are not a problem to
produce. The key is to look at the bigger picture and create a system which
provides incentives to the villagers to participate and some form of
justification for others to make the required investment in the equipment.
This is very basis, but hope it answers the first line of questions.
Jim Dunham
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From elk at wananchi.com Tue Oct 9 02:43:02 2001
From: elk at wananchi.com (elk)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:11 2004
Subject: where's the ash?
Message-ID: <000a01c1508d$3baeb240$5e41083e@default>
Stovers: we've been scratching my head over this
one here at Chardust........
An experimental briquette with the following
components mixed in at an air-dry basis (verified):
0.5% PVA (polyvinyl alcohol)
10% clay (I assume dolomitic- of volcanic
origin)
39.5% carbonized coffee husk
This briquette when burnt in boiling test trials
consistently produces ash residue less than 10%...... in the region of
8%.
The ash residue remains in the shape of the
original briquette- so there's little if any 'fly ash' escaping.
Where's the ash gone? Does clay burn? We would
expect pure carbonized coffee husk to have around 12% ash by dry weight at our
33% charcoal conversion efficiency. Add 10% clay to this and residual ash should
rise by nearly an equal amount- say another 8%. Therefore this briquette should
leave something like 20% ash.... not 8!
.......strange....... any ideas?
thanks;
elk
--------------------------Elsen L.
Karstadelk@wananchi.com<A
href="http://www.chardust.com">www.chardust.comNairobi
Kenya
From Tami.Bond at noaa.gov Tue Oct 9 03:21:36 2001
From: Tami.Bond at noaa.gov (Tami Bond)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:11 2004
Subject: where's the ash?
Message-ID: <5d55759856.598565d557@pmel.noaa.gov>
Elk,
I have the same question about Chinese coal briquettes.
According to fuel analysis, the ones I have were supposed to be ~20-25%
ash. (Unfortunately, I don't know what the binder is. The fuel
component is a low-volatile coal.)
After the briquettes burn out, the form of the briquette remains. It is
very light, 2-3% of the original weight. I have looked at the "fly ash"
with particle-sizing equipment and weighing filters and the mass is
just not there.
It's not staying in the combustor and it's not going out the stack as
particles so I figure it must be going out the stack as gas. I'd like
to confirm this, though. I believe there are known chemical mechanisms
whereby mineral matter can volatilize at fairly low temps if it is
reduced-- this is something I want to investigate numerically. But it's
thought that usually, the more-volatile reduced species get oxidized
fairly immediately, returning to the particle phase.
I'm still puzzled. Let me know if you resolve your head-scratching and
I'll do the same.
yours
Tami
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From elk at wananchi.com Tue Oct 9 04:29:02 2001
From: elk at wananchi.com (elk)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:11 2004
Subject: where's the ash?
In-Reply-To: <5d55759856.598565d557@pmel.noaa.gov>
Message-ID: <007b01c1509b$ffe47600$5e41083e@default>
Thanks Tami- you are investigating along the lines of my suspicions. Add
what James Dunham says about ash quantities and temperatures in the 'fire
logs' and we can start re-inventing "Ash" I reckon.
In the feeds industry we speak of 'Acid insoluble ash' which refers to
indigestible ash- ash which is not dissolved in the digestive system of
animal species X.
So.
There are different types of ash.
The ash you expect may not be the ash you get. We've a mysterious ash-hole
on our hands!
How much ash is produced depends on heat....... and.......??? You use the
terms 'reduced' and 'volatile' and speak of 'forms' . My head scratching
begins to result in hair loss.... do we consider 'sublimation' too?
rgds;
elk
--------------------------
Elsen L. Karstad
elk@wananchi.com
www.chardust.com
Nairobi Kenya
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tami Bond" <Tami.Bond@noaa.gov>
To: <stoves@crest.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2001 10:16 AM
Subject: Re: where's the ash?
>
> Elk,
>
> I have the same question about Chinese coal briquettes.
>
> According to fuel analysis, the ones I have were supposed to be ~20-25%
> ash. (Unfortunately, I don't know what the binder is. The fuel
> component is a low-volatile coal.)
>
> After the briquettes burn out, the form of the briquette remains. It is
> very light, 2-3% of the original weight. I have looked at the "fly ash"
> with particle-sizing equipment and weighing filters and the mass is
> just not there.
>
> It's not staying in the combustor and it's not going out the stack as
> particles so I figure it must be going out the stack as gas. I'd like
> to confirm this, though. I believe there are known chemical mechanisms
> whereby mineral matter can volatilize at fairly low temps if it is
> reduced-- this is something I want to investigate numerically. But it's
> thought that usually, the more-volatile reduced species get oxidized
> fairly immediately, returning to the particle phase.
>
> I'm still puzzled. Let me know if you resolve your head-scratching and
> I'll do the same.
>
> yours
>
> Tami
>
>
>
> -
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>
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>
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From Carefreeland at aol.com Tue Oct 9 05:49:52 2001
From: Carefreeland at aol.com (Carefreeland@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:11 2004
Subject: Here's the ash
Message-ID: <10d.6c9983a.28f4211f@aol.com>
Stovers,
There is only one possible solution that I can come up with for your
disappearing ash. The key word here is dolomitic clay. Pure clay is fine
powdered silicon and silicon dioxide, maybe some silicon oxide. When you say
dolomitic you indicate there is lime or limestone mixed in. (originating from
dolomites, little microscopic seashell animals)
I know dolomitic clay well because it is a primary component of cave mud,
the natural decomposition product of dolomitic limestone. After a day or
more crawling through it, it takes the next day to hose it out of all the
clothes and gear, not to mention your nose. Often we just let it dry and dust
it out.
Your missing weight is in carbonate CO3. This is not really ash at all
but because it accompanies the clay is considered so. This may be also where
the catalytic effect is coming from. Tell me chemists, is the CO3 to CO2
reaction exothermic?
Elk, remember when we discussed the "black soddic" condition of your
clay?
Carbonate is what keeps the plants from growing and usually originates from
precipitation from water after flowing thru limestone at some point. If
there is no drainage the calcium carbonate CaCO3 is left behind.
My guess is that your ancient Kenyan volcanos pushed up through a
limestone layer, and since the calcium has to get up to F5000+ to melt, it
was just carried along. Natural weathering with the accompanying carbonic
acid redeposited the lime in the clay as it all settled out. Clay is not
ejected from volcanos but silicon dioxide and quartz (pure silicon) are,
which weather into clay as a secondary mineral.
Now quit scratching your head, put your "clay" into a glass of vinegar
and watch the bubbles, there goes your "ash" in the form of CO2.
Any questions?
Dan Dimiduk
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From Carefreeland at aol.com Tue Oct 9 08:00:26 2001
From: Carefreeland at aol.com (Carefreeland@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:11 2004
Subject: Fwd: Here's the ash
Message-ID: <69.1c1d32c9.28f43fa2@aol.com>
Peter,
I'm posting your response to stoves. This still leaves unresolved if the
reaction is exothermic. Once enough heat is put in does still more heat
return. Thanks for the useful chemistry.
Daniel Dimiduk
To: Carefreeland@aol.com
Subject: Re: Here's the ash
From: Peter Verhaart <pverhaart@optusnet.com.au>
Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 20:12:16 +1000
In-Reply-To: <10d.6c9983a.28f4211f@aol.com>
If the dolomite is Calcium carbonate, CaCO3, then if it is heated to a
sufficiently high temperature, it loses CO2:
CaCO3 --> CaO + CO2
Masses (if memory serves) Ca 40; C 12; O 16. eg
100 --> 56 + 44
So from 100 mass units of limestone, 56 mass units remain after burning to
quicklime.
Piet
At 05:45 9/10/01 -0400, you wrote:
> Stovers,
> There is only one possible solution that I can come up with for your
>disappearing ash. The key word here is dolomitic clay. Pure clay is fine
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From Carefreeland at aol.com Tue Oct 9 08:13:57 2001
From: Carefreeland at aol.com (Carefreeland@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:11 2004
Subject: What else is ash?
Message-ID: <26.1c774ecb.28f442e8@aol.com>
Stovers,
There is one other major component to dolomitic limestone. That is
magnesium carbonate-MgCO3. According to my book, washed dolomite is 54.745 %
CaCO3 + 39.61% MgCO3. 4% Water and traces of other minerals such as iron can
also be found. Now the magnesium can also turn into magnesium oxide smoke,
or ash. What percentage of the clay is dolomite?
The plot (or ash) thickens. Time for some good chemistry.
Daniel Dimiduk
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From mheat at mha-net.org Tue Oct 9 09:20:54 2001
From: mheat at mha-net.org (Norbert Senf)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:11 2004
Subject: Heat transfer to pots
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011007053346.00b99e70@127.0.0.1>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011009084523.00c42310@127.0.0.1>
At 08:12 AM 2001-10-07 -0600, Ron Larson wrote:
>(snip)
> I now know where Greermount is - but not Shawville. Just off your map?
Hi Ron: just off the map. Shawville is a small town of 2,000 about an
hour's drive from Ottawa, Canada's capital. Greermount is about 20 minutes
from Shawville - off in the boonies. We bought some land out here 28 years
ago, when we were young and foolish. We've been heating and cooking with
wood since then. Here's a picture of our shop:
http://mha-net.org/msb/graphics/scans/lopez01.jpg
> I got through to the Count Rumford site. Both Tom Reed and I have read
>the collected works - so this is a chance to help others learn more about
>Rumford's word 200 years ago on stove design. How about your explaining the
>relationship of his work to your own. Readers of the Rumford work will come
>away with an appreciation of using steam for cooking.
I read Rumford many years ago, but don't recall any specifics that stuck,
other than the rounded chimney breast to prevent turbulence. It is an
excellent way to build an open fireplace, but we try to avoid building open
fireplaces these days due to emissions and efficiency issues. In fact, the
Finnish contraflow heater that we now build is an attempt to provide North
Americans with an alternative to the conventional fireplace. Jim Buckley
out in Washington state has made quite a study of the Count, and as you
mentioned, has a large Rumford fireplace website: www.rumford.com
> I had bread fresh out of a horno 10 days ago. I saw one reviewer's
>claim that one could be built for $100 - and think the one I saw could have
>been built for about that price. Could you comment on the efficiency
>aspects of a $100 horno? When I return, I am going to look more carefully
>at your recommended books - too many to consider right now!
If you ask Dean Still, you will get quite an efficiency argument in favor
of low mass metal ovens. There's a growing "authentic bread" subculture
here in North America that is leading to a revival of baking in woodfired
masonry ovens. Some major design advances have been made on traditional
designs by insulating the ovens. Alan Scott in California was the main
innovator on this. On a commercial oven in continuous use, this can result
in quite good efficiency. For occasional home use, you still have to heat
up all that mass, which is Dean's complaint about them. The high mass ovens
are prized for their even radiant heat and ability to deliver the correct
amount of bottom heat from the hearth required to produce "authentic"
artisan breads such as French levain.
>(snip) Our stoves work would be over if we could get the home
>heaters working on $10 cook stoves.
Not so sure about that. From what I've seen so far, it is quite a tall
order considering all of the different cultural and technical aspects. I
just received an email from Pat Manley about this winter's Guatemala
cookstove project. We would like to experiment with some ideas like trying
the rocket principle on the local estufas, which are made from
pumice/concrete blocks. Pat is putting out feelers of perhaps organizing a
hands-on workshop on this topic.
Best ......... Norbert
----------------------------------------
Norbert Senf---------- mheat@mha-net.org-nospam
Masonry Stove Builders (remove -nospam)
RR 5, Shawville------- www.heatkit.com
Quebec J0X 2Y0-------- fax:-----819.647.6082
---------------------- voice:---819.647.5092
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From dandreatta at fticonsulting.com Tue Oct 9 11:28:02 2001
From: dandreatta at fticonsulting.com (Andreatta, Dale A.)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:11 2004
Subject: Heat transfer to pots
Message-ID: <51320B39AB13D4118FDB00500486CC003664AA@colds01.fticorp.com>
Ron Larson asked me to provide some more information on my background and
thoughts, so......
I have a Ph. D. in mechanical engineering (this is where I met Tami Bond; as
I recall she taught me most of what I used to know about using NOx
analyzers). My major area was combustion, and one of my minor areas was
heat transfer. I really know very little about practical aspects of
combustion, except that it is a darn complicated phenomenon. I do know a
fair bit about heat transfer, and something about fluid flow as well.
In the early 90's, and to some extent recently, I worked (as more of a
hobby) in the field of solar water pasteurization. If anyone is curious,
the devices we developed can be seen at www.accessone.com/~sbcn/solarwat.htm
and in various written documents.
I work for an engineering consulting company in Columbus, Ohio, USA that
generously allows me a certain amount of time to work on "non-company"
projects and gives me a small budget to work with. These projects are
usually related to solar energy and energy efficiency. My reason for being
on this list was to see how much has been done in this business of
increasing the heat transfer to the cooking pot. If a lot of work has been
done, then I probably can't contribute much and my time would be better
spent doing something else. On the other hand, if not much has been done,
then my time might be well spent. Certainly none of my other projects have
the potential to impact some many people's lives so profoundly.
Regarding heat transfer modelling, I don't have access to any codes for heat
transfer modelling, and I probably wouldn't use them anyway. I'm of the
opinion that too many engineers spend too much time on too many details and
loose sight of the essentials. I also believe that plain old hand
calculations are a good learning exercise, especially at the beginning of a
project.
Regarding thoughts for improving heat transfer efficiency, I haven't thought
seriously about this, but some sort of fin arrangement jumps into mind. Of
course, ideas that would work with any pot size would be best, perhaps
something that simply goes with the pot such that it would work on all
stoves and 3-stone fires as well. Possibly also methods combining radiative
heat transfer with convective. Naturally one would need to be careful not
to upset the combustion process with heat transfer. I would imagine the
fraction of heat going into the stove body and/or the ground would need to
be checked, and if significant, this loss could be reduced. I notice that
plain old sand and dry soil have very low conductivities.
If I were to jump into this field, a number of possibilities might arise for
projects. It might be possible to do a heat transfer analysis of a specific
existing stove, and suggest improvements on it if applicable. Of course two
heads are better than one (unless they're on the same person) so a
collaborative project might be good. Another option might be for me to
serve as someone's "assistant" for a while, doing calculations and basic
experiments while I learn about cookers before striking out on new ideas.
Of course it's good when striking out in a new field to learn what has
already been done, so if anyone has any suggested references, either on
general stove information or about the details of the heat transfer, feel
free to suggest them.
Dale Andreatta
-
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From mheat at mha-net.org Tue Oct 9 12:47:46 2001
From: mheat at mha-net.org (Norbert Senf)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:11 2004
Subject: Heat transfer to pots
In-Reply-To: <51320B39AB13D4118FDB00500486CC003664AA@colds01.fticorp.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011009124222.00bd5f00@127.0.0.1>
At 11:34 AM 2001-10-09 -0400, Andreatta, Dale A. wrote:
>(snip) if anyone has any suggested references, either on
>general stove information or about the details of the heat transfer, feel
>free to suggest them.
Hi Dale:
A classic in the field is:
Biomass Stoves by Sam Baldwin
http://www.developmentbookshop.com/basket.phtml?isbn=866192743
Best ....... Norbert
----------------------------------------
Norbert Senf---------- mheat@mha-net.org-nospam
Masonry Stove Builders (remove -nospam)
RR 5, Shawville------- www.heatkit.com
Quebec J0X 2Y0-------- fax:-----819.647.6082
---------------------- voice:---819.647.5092
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From kmbryden at iastate.edu Tue Oct 9 13:06:59 2001
From: kmbryden at iastate.edu (kenneth mark bryden)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:11 2004
Subject: Heat transfer to pots
In-Reply-To: <51320B39AB13D4118FDB00500486CC003664AA@colds01.fticorp.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011009112310.036cc870@kmbryden.mail.iastate.edu>
Hi Dale,
We've (my lab and I) have spent about the last year working on heat
transfer to pots. Both developing relationships for heat transfer from a
flame to pot and on improvements to pots. We have spent some time working
on fins. We are always looking for additional workers/peers and new ideas
so feel free to get your oars in the water on this topic. I really believe
that we need to extend the group of researchers who work together and
publish their results in peer reviewed journals on an ongoing basis.
My research group consists of 5 undergraduates, 12 graduate students, and 2
post doc's. The stoves effort is supported by 3 undergrad and 2 grad students.
Our efforts have been experimental and computational. Although most of my
group's work is computational modeling and optimization of fluid and
thermal systems, after a literature review it became clear that we would
need develop our own experimental setup to validate our work and test new
ideas. Currently we have spent about $10,000 on the experimental setup and
we have just brought it on line. The past two weeks have been spent on
looking at repeatability and fine tuning the test procedure. In addition to
the traditional measures of temperatures and weights, we are set up to
determine efficiency in real-time as a function of time. We are working to
add in the capability to measure the air flow around the pot using some
type of digital/video or CCD technique, however I suspect that it will be 6
months or so before we find funding for this portion of the lab. We are
partnered with a local technical college which manufactures pots for us.
Right now we are focused on the traditional engineering business of
accounting for all of the energy (Ein - Eout = Echange) and accounting for
where all the energy goes. I am particularly interested in experiementally
addressing issues related to convection/radiation/heat on the bottom vs
sides/ pot lids/etc. I have read/heard a lot of ideas and assertions about
these topics but have seen very few peer reviewed experimental studies. We
will be comparing the experimental results with the computational results
and previously published results to give us greater insight into the
processes involved. I'm hoping that we will be able by the end of the
semester to report preliminary results on this study with a published paper
to follow shortly thereafter.
Following this I plan to attack the optimization problem. We have a list of
about 15 different ideas that could improve pot performance and I would
welcome additions to the list.
We are working with Dean Still and Aprovecho on this and other projects and
they will be providing independent testing and validation of our results
both in their lab and in the field. The goal of our work with Aprovecho is
to develop a set of engineering guidelines for cooking that enable a worker
in the field to assess the cooking tasks to be accomplished, the materials
available, cultural, safety and other constraints, and determine the best
solution for a given set of constraints and to be able to reliably estimate
the efficiency and emissions for that solution. The goal is to allow stove
builders to find the best solution more quickly relative to the build and
test techniques that are common today.
Again - welcome to group and lets talk about opportunities for collaboration.
Mark
At 11:34 AM 10/09/2001 -0400, you wrote:
>Ron Larson asked me to provide some more information on my background and
>thoughts, so......
>
>I have a Ph. D. in mechanical engineering (this is where I met Tami Bond; as
>I recall she taught me most of what I used to know about using NOx
>analyzers). My major area was combustion, and one of my minor areas was
>heat transfer. I really know very little about practical aspects of
>combustion, except that it is a darn complicated phenomenon. I do know a
>fair bit about heat transfer, and something about fluid flow as well.
>
>In the early 90's, and to some extent recently, I worked (as more of a
>hobby) in the field of solar water pasteurization. If anyone is curious,
>the devices we developed can be seen at www.accessone.com/~sbcn/solarwat.htm
>and in various written documents.
>
>I work for an engineering consulting company in Columbus, Ohio, USA that
>generously allows me a certain amount of time to work on "non-company"
>projects and gives me a small budget to work with. These projects are
>usually related to solar energy and energy efficiency. My reason for being
>on this list was to see how much has been done in this business of
>increasing the heat transfer to the cooking pot. If a lot of work has been
>done, then I probably can't contribute much and my time would be better
>spent doing something else. On the other hand, if not much has been done,
>then my time might be well spent. Certainly none of my other projects have
>the potential to impact some many people's lives so profoundly.
>
>Regarding heat transfer modelling, I don't have access to any codes for heat
>transfer modelling, and I probably wouldn't use them anyway. I'm of the
>opinion that too many engineers spend too much time on too many details and
>loose sight of the essentials. I also believe that plain old hand
>calculations are a good learning exercise, especially at the beginning of a
>project.
>
>Regarding thoughts for improving heat transfer efficiency, I haven't thought
>seriously about this, but some sort of fin arrangement jumps into mind. Of
>course, ideas that would work with any pot size would be best, perhaps
>something that simply goes with the pot such that it would work on all
>stoves and 3-stone fires as well. Possibly also methods combining radiative
>heat transfer with convective. Naturally one would need to be careful not
>to upset the combustion process with heat transfer. I would imagine the
>fraction of heat going into the stove body and/or the ground would need to
>be checked, and if significant, this loss could be reduced. I notice that
>plain old sand and dry soil have very low conductivities.
>
>If I were to jump into this field, a number of possibilities might arise for
>projects. It might be possible to do a heat transfer analysis of a specific
>existing stove, and suggest improvements on it if applicable. Of course two
>heads are better than one (unless they're on the same person) so a
>collaborative project might be good. Another option might be for me to
>serve as someone's "assistant" for a while, doing calculations and basic
>experiments while I learn about cookers before striking out on new ideas.
>Of course it's good when striking out in a new field to learn what has
>already been done, so if anyone has any suggested references, either on
>general stove information or about the details of the heat transfer, feel
>free to suggest them.
>
>Dale Andreatta
>__________________________________________________________
Kenneth "Mark" Bryden, Ph.D. Assistant Professor
kmbryden@iastate.edu Iowa State University
ph: 515-294-3891 3030 Black Engineering Bldg
fax: 515-294-3261 Ames, Iowa 50011-2161
-
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From tami.bond at noaa.gov Tue Oct 9 13:37:07 2001
From: tami.bond at noaa.gov (Tami Bond)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:11 2004
Subject: What else is ash?
In-Reply-To: <26.1c774ecb.28f442e8@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3BC33502.C17DA1A9@noaa.gov>
Stovers,
Okay, we have CaCO3 that could release 44% mass as CO2, and MgCO3 that
could release 52% mass as CO2. Perhaps that could solve Elk's problem
(8% ash instead of 20% = 60% release) but certainly not mine (3% instead
of 25% = 88% release).
Elk's ash estimate is based on how much "ashy" component is added,
right? Mine is actually based on an ultimate analysis of the fuel. One
would think the "official" ash analysis would release the CO2 and it
wouldn't be counted. Anyone have the ASTM standards for coal analysis
handy? I have to go to the library to find out what temperature is used
to determine ash content. [I'll do Dan's experiment and throw some
briquette in vinegar. I knew there was a use for these broken
briquettes! :-)]
Elk, I hope I can save you a toupee, or at least part of one, or maybe I
will make it worse.
Vaporization/condensation: If it gets hot enough, a compound that
doesn't undergo any chemical transformations can escape in the fly ash
by vaporizing and then condensing (just like water going to vapor and
back). We expect the more-volatile compounds to show up in the fly ash--
that is, the compounds that have lower "boiling" or "sublimation"
points. We expect the less-volatile compounds to stay in the bottom ash.
Reduction pathway:
SiO2 + CO -> SiO + CO2 "Reduction" = removal of oxygen from ash
SiO is more volatile than SiO2 and vaporizes, gets out into the free
air, and:
2 SiO + O2 -> 2 SiO2 "Oxidation"
So you have material that "couldn't" volatilize showing up in the fly
ash. I don't have a clue how it could get into the gas phase and stay
there.
For coal combustion, there is a lot of literature on which compounds
"like" to stay in the bottom ash and which escape in the fly ash. There
are some general rules for this, but there is also some dependence on
the form of the compounds in the coal-- whether they are organically
bound, etc. Many people are still scratching their heads! (Of course,
the research is mostly done on pulverized coal-- not on lower-temp
burning like stoves.) I've just told you most of what I know. There is
probably other research on minerals from biomass.
The fate of mineral matter is interesting because you can use better
burning to get rid of carbonaceous smoke but not fly ash. If minerals
(either in smoke or gas-phase) are causing health problems, then you
really do have to vent the stove.
Tami
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From andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com Tue Oct 9 17:22:52 2001
From: andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com (AJH)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:11 2004
Subject: What else is ash?
In-Reply-To: <26.1c774ecb.28f442e8@aol.com>
Message-ID: <mbp6stgv7nnc8ugp6arg5dpqm1jo94enrj@4ax.com>
On Tue, 09 Oct 2001 10:33:54 -0700,Tami Bond <tami.bond@noaa.gov>
wrote:
>
>The fate of mineral matter is interesting because you can use better
>burning to get rid of carbonaceous smoke but not fly ash. If minerals
>(either in smoke or gas-phase) are causing health problems, then you
>really do have to vent the stove.
I tried to raise this issue some while back, there was an interesting
comment in one of the US domestic heating pollution reports that
whilst overall having much better particulate performance, there was a
difference in the nature of particles produced with top stoking as
opposed to bottom stoking of pellet stoves.
As listers may have gathered I am keen on turbulence to ensure a clean
burn. Plainly if this turbulence causes more fly ash then it may be a
problem. I am aware that silica particles are implicated in a number
of lung disorders, though I believe their shape is part of the
problem, which may let fly ash off the hook a little.
Yet another attribute of idd stoves may be that the low velocity of
primary air may lead to lower fly ash, both because a large amount of
char, with its ash, is retained plus the small amount of ash produced
coupled with the low primary air requirement means that the airstream
at the pyrolysis front is slow, whereas the major mass flow is
pyrolysis products which could be filtered by char in the inert zone
above. Hence I surmise the stove fuel (pyrolysis gas at about
12MJ/kg?) could be fly ash free and hence the final products, this
fuel gas plus secondary air, could be relatively ash free also. Anyone
done any measurements?
AJH
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From Auke.Koopmans at fao.org Wed Oct 10 06:56:27 2001
From: Auke.Koopmans at fao.org (Koopmans, Auke (FAORAP))
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:11 2004
Subject: What else is ash?
Message-ID: <3F078B30BD9FD21190830090273A70A901DD4B6B@rapexch1.fao.org>
Besides CaCO3 and MgCO3, the clay, and in particular unrefined clay as you
will find almost everywhere, will contain organic matter. During combustion
the organic matter will burn out but normally this accounts only for a small
amount. Much depends on if the briquette makers add other combustible
materials (dung, molasses - you would smell the latter during combustion,
etc.) and this would also burn out when the briquette is used - again
probably accounting for a relatively small amount.
Auke Koopmans
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tami Bond [SMTP:tami.bond@noaa.gov]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 12:34 AM
> To: stoves@crest.org
> Subject: Re: What else is ash?
>
>
> Stovers,
>
> Okay, we have CaCO3 that could release 44% mass as CO2, and MgCO3 that
> could release 52% mass as CO2. Perhaps that could solve Elk's problem
> (8% ash instead of 20% = 60% release) but certainly not mine (3% instead
> of 25% = 88% release).
>
> Elk's ash estimate is based on how much "ashy" component is added,
> right? Mine is actually based on an ultimate analysis of the fuel. One
> would think the "official" ash analysis would release the CO2 and it
> wouldn't be counted. Anyone have the ASTM standards for coal analysis
> handy? I have to go to the library to find out what temperature is used
> to determine ash content. [I'll do Dan's experiment and throw some
> briquette in vinegar. I knew there was a use for these broken
> briquettes! :-)]
>
> Elk, I hope I can save you a toupee, or at least part of one, or maybe I
> will make it worse.
>
> Vaporization/condensation: If it gets hot enough, a compound that
> doesn't undergo any chemical transformations can escape in the fly ash
> by vaporizing and then condensing (just like water going to vapor and
> back). We expect the more-volatile compounds to show up in the fly ash--
> that is, the compounds that have lower "boiling" or "sublimation"
> points. We expect the less-volatile compounds to stay in the bottom ash.
>
> Reduction pathway:
> SiO2 + CO -> SiO + CO2 "Reduction" = removal of oxygen from ash
> SiO is more volatile than SiO2 and vaporizes, gets out into the free
> air, and:
> 2 SiO + O2 -> 2 SiO2 "Oxidation"
>
> So you have material that "couldn't" volatilize showing up in the fly
> ash. I don't have a clue how it could get into the gas phase and stay
> there.
>
> For coal combustion, there is a lot of literature on which compounds
> "like" to stay in the bottom ash and which escape in the fly ash. There
> are some general rules for this, but there is also some dependence on
> the form of the compounds in the coal-- whether they are organically
> bound, etc. Many people are still scratching their heads! (Of course,
> the research is mostly done on pulverized coal-- not on lower-temp
> burning like stoves.) I've just told you most of what I know. There is
> probably other research on minerals from biomass.
>
> The fate of mineral matter is interesting because you can use better
> burning to get rid of carbonaceous smoke but not fly ash. If minerals
> (either in smoke or gas-phase) are causing health problems, then you
> really do have to vent the stove.
>
> Tami
>
> -
> Stoves List Archives and Website:
> http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
> http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
>
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> Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
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>
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From jmdavies at xsinet.co.za Wed Oct 10 11:24:23 2001
From: jmdavies at xsinet.co.za (John Davies)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:11 2004
Subject: What else is ash?
In-Reply-To: <26.1c774ecb.28f442e8@aol.com>
Message-ID: <000301c1519f$165677e0$06d51ac4@jmdavies>
HI,
Don't most of these compounds contain a number of water
olecules,( carbonates and clay )
So some of the weight of clay binders could be water.
Just a thought,
John Davies.
----- Original Message -----
From: Tami Bond <tami.bond@noaa.gov>
To: <stoves@crest.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2001 7:33 PM
Subject: Re: What else is ash?
>
> Stovers,
>
> Okay, we have CaCO3 that could release 44% mass as CO2, and MgCO3 that
> could release 52% mass as CO2. Perhaps that could solve Elk's problem
> (8% ash instead of 20% = 60% release) but certainly not mine (3% instead
> of 25% = 88% release).
-
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From andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com Wed Oct 10 17:10:30 2001
From: andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com (AJH)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:11 2004
Subject: What else is ash?
In-Reply-To: <5e2e65df94.5df945e2e6@pmel.noaa.gov>
Message-ID: <t8c9stoleovfogk3e2nsttnipuc6v4mk74@4ax.com>
On Wed, 10 Oct 2001 08:23:30 -0700, Tami wrote:
Hi Tami
I was not sure whether you meant to be off list for this but have
noted a number of discussions go off list by default as the list
software is ill configured, so I have put it to the list as it may be
of general interest, I am always happy to correspond off list if you
wish.
>> I tried to raise this issue some while back, there was an interesting
>> comment in one of the US domestic heating pollution reports that
>> whilst overall having much better particulate performance, there
>> was a difference in the nature of particles produced with top stoking
>> as opposed to bottom stoking of pellet stoves.
>
>Can you give me the reference on that? I'm a bit new to Stoves so
>probably missed this discussion.
I will not be able to find and exact reference easily as I am untidy
and poorly organised ;-).
I am fairly confident it was in one of a series Paul Tiegs of Omni did
for the air and waste management association in ~1995, they all made
good reading.
>
>> Yet another attribute of idd stoves may be that the low velocity of
>> primary air may lead to lower fly ash,
>
>I think this is one reason that industrial stokers have low primary air
>and count on the secondary to burn out-- avoid making fly ash. But I am
Also with fossil fuel air is fed in in tertiary and later stages with
a bit of heat reduction between stages to limit NOx formation.
>still coming up to speed on DD and IDD-- I think I understand how they
>looks but I can't yet envision the burning process. I guess I have to
>build one myself.
IDD is easily done, Ronal was here today and we had a small effort at
idd combustion of house coal. First I proved it worked cleanly and
flared on pellets, next cam the surprise. I had not expected the coal
to top down burn because I held the view that idd works only if there
is a small need for heat to ignite the next layer. Top down did work
but slowly, this appeared to result in combustion of coal as the
"pyrolysis" zone went to red heat, with biomass is seems to pass at
<500C. Anyway the resultant pyrolysis and combustion products proved
exceeding difficult to flare and then only if primary air remained
high. I think the pyrolysis gas produced had a poor calorific value
and was heavily contaminated with CO2. Anyway the process needs a bit
more engineering and thought before it gets to the cleanliness of dry
biomass.
Downdraft gasification is more complex and unforgiving, but has the
potential to produce a synthetic gas of CO and H2 with N2 which makes
it suitable for other processes (especially the holy grail of powering
an IC engine without drastically reducing its life or contamination
its oil).
>
>You couldn't remove the vaporization/condensation process by decreasing
>turbulence, but if you somehow kept the temperature low by decreasing
>primary air and forestalling reactions until the secondary zone, that
>would decrease the ability of compounds to vaporize. Again, I need to
>work on my physical sense... gotta go watch things burn for a while.
>
This is essentially what we think happens, pyrolysis proceeds down at
a low temperature as long as primary air flow is low (low superficial
velocity), as the heat and temperature in this front sets the
temperature of the offgas that then travels through the already
pyrolised char above it, it means there is no time in which the char
gets any hotter, hence any ash compounds that are in the char matrix
stay there.
I am hoarse from bending Ronal's ear thoroughly today, so pleased to
meet him and Gretchen and hope Ronal enjoyed playing around with my
experiments as much as I enjoyed showing him.
AJH
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From costaeec at kcnet.com Wed Oct 10 22:12:39 2001
From: costaeec at kcnet.com (James Dunham)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:11 2004
Subject: FW: briquetting technology
Message-ID: <CEEJJCPBKMDPHAMPLNGPIEKJCAAA.costaeec@kcnet.com>
-----Original Message-----
From: psanders@ilstu.edu [mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu]
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 3:57 PM
To: James Dunham; stoves@crest.com
Cc: normaltwo@juno.com
Subject: Re: briquetting technology
Stovers, (Noeli, please forward to Ed and Bob or give them a copy.)
If you missed the excellent message from James Dunham, I recommend you look
back for it. It starts:
>Ron & All,
>
>I promised a bit of info on biomass densification, as I understand it. I
>certainly am no expert, but have designed & built many plants, over many
>years, in many continents, using all major brands of equipment, with many
I liked James' 3 categories of densification. He culminates with the high
pressure systems, and has excellent reasons to like it best.
But I am concerned that because of limited funds to invest in such systems,
people in need are left without even the benefits of the low pressure
systems, called briquettes.
An "evolution" or progression of densification pressures is probably more
appropriate for many of the financially poor countries and poor comunities.
That is why I am working in Mozambique with even lower levels of basic
industry than is Richard Stanley. I start with self-sufficiency production
(even subsistance) and hope to grow to the levels of micro-industries of
full time jobs making briquettes.
Also of interest is that Crispin and I discussed his ability to manufacture
a high pressure densification extruder with his "vegetable oil press"
technology. After reading James' message, I gained interest in Crispin's
extruder, which is hand operated by 2 people. Appropriate technology (low
cost) to get the advantages of high technology, quality engineering.
I also note that Tom Reed's gasification unit is better fueled by
pellet-size (up to inch by inch size)highly densified biomass, and not the
lighter and larger briquettes.
Much food for thought.
In Africa and loving every minute!!!!
Paul
-
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From crispin at newdawn.sz Fri Oct 12 11:37:02 2001
From: crispin at newdawn.sz (New Dawn Engineering / ATEX)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:12 2004
Subject: Second Basintuthu Test with Dr P Anderson in attendance
Message-ID: <004601c15333$f0c27d80$ece80fc4@am29>
Dear Stovers
Here is the compete results of a 1 hr 17 minute test conducted wth Dr Paul
Anderson and Jack Lawrence on 6 October 2001. The stove was fuelled with a
total of 850 grammes of wood. The fire was started with 150 gm of soft pine
to heat up the grate. When that was done we put in 700 gm of cold Acacia
branches and let it develop full secondary combustion which took 3.5
minutes. The fuel varied from 7 to 25mm in diameter. It was complete with
bark and not fully air dried.
The pot was aluminum with a blackened exterior (from earlier tests)
containing 3.25 litres of water. It boiled in 8 minutes. The boil was
maintained for another 32 minutes.
The temperatures below are of the primary air at the point slightly above
where it enters the grate. The air is descending at that point. The probe
was placed between two pieces of pine such that it could not pick up radiant
hear from either the (inner)secondary air tube or the (outer) primary air
tube. The tubes are concentric. The primary air is heated by heat
radiating from the secondary air tube outwards toward the primary air tube.
The reading is therefore the temperature of decending air as it reaches the
bottom of the gap just before it enters the grate.
The fire is bottom lit. The air control starves both the primary and
secondary air. There is no separation of the primary and secondary air;
they are sequential. Preheated primary air is further heated between the
grate and the secondary air tube as it rises. This secondary air reaches
temperatures as high as 500 C (see previous report). It is clear from the
figures that the wood holding and sheltering the probe caught alight
probably because the temperature of the outside of the secondary air tube
reached the ignition temperature of pine.
Promotional content of this message: The stove sells for about $22.
Regards
Crispin
+++++++++++++++
Stove Test 7 Oct 2001
Basintuthu Model 2 featuring pre-heated primary and secondary air
Test of the primary air temperature over time while cooking.
Minute No./Temp C/Comments if any
0 23
3 29
4 36 Turned air down
5 51
7 70
9 87 Add 700 gm (full) of Acacia branches, lotsa grey smoke
11 102 Some secondary burning, flames reach top of heat shield
12 106 Full secondary burning
12:30 111 Added the pot (alu) with 3.25 litres water
14 120 Roaring hard, decreased air to 40% open
15 128 Flames coming 100mm up past top of pot
16 133
17 136
18 142
19 153 Bubbling slightly
20 168 Starting to boil
20:30 Rolling Boil
21 188 Turned down to 10%
22 204 Danger of pot boiling over
24 251 Closed air to 3mm (about 5% of opening)
25 308 Starting grey smoke (probably lack of secondary air)
26 352 Too much smoke, opened air to 12%
27 387 1/2 as much smoke, flames and no smoke from 27:15
28 436 Visible flames around pot, small amoutn of thin black smoke
29 547 No side flames - strong suspicion the wood holding the
30 454 probe has caught alight.
31 429 Rolling boil
32 427 Utterly smokeless, very quiet
33 411 No change
34 388 No change
35 372 No change
36 359 No change
37 352 No change
38 349 No change
39 347 No change
40 338 No change
41 335 No change
42 328 No change
43 323 Mostly as left in the fire, still boiling in pot centre.
44 315 No change
45 306 No change
46 302 No change
47 296 No change
48 292 No change
49 285 Smoke smells vaguely of acacia
50 273 Grate 1/4 full with red coals.
51 269 Estimated that all 700 gm of acacia now burned
52 265 Burned 41 minutes on 700 gm = 17 gm/min avg
53 257 Early burning rate probably 25 gm/min
54 220
55 174 Opened air to bring up remnants of the fire
56 164 Boiling well.
57 143 Boiling with vigour, Air closed to 40%
58 147 Boiling less
59 156 Boiling less, opened air full
60 150 Boiling returned
61 136 Boiling well
62 117
63 119
64 119
65 106 Tiny fire, glowing coals
66 107 No steam or only a little emerging
67 105 No steam fire nearly out, boiling at centre only
68 96
69 90 Fire pathetically small
70 91 No boiling
73 75 Some boiling
74 69 Simmering
75 71 Just hot
76 67 No bubbles left
77 63 Some steam
END
-
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From karve at wmi.co.in Fri Oct 12 22:01:39 2001
From: karve at wmi.co.in (karve)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:12 2004
Subject: helping Afgans
Message-ID: <000f01c1538a$fbf4c800$2a2033ca@karve>
Stovers,
A few days back there was
some discussion on the list regarding possible ways to help the Afgan people. In
that context, some of you may be interested in the following
message.
<FONT
color=#000000>Regards,
Priyadarshini Karve
<FONT face="MS Sans Serif, Helvetica"
size=2>From:
"Development
VISIONS" <daima@brain.net.pk>
<FONT face="MS Sans Serif, Helvetica"
size=2>To:
<FONT face="MS Sans Serif, Helvetica"
size=2><karve@wmi.co.in>
<FONT face="MS Sans Serif, Helvetica"
size=2>Date:
Fri, 12 Oct 2001
17:23:36 +0500
<FONT face="MS Sans Serif, Helvetica"
size=2>Subject:
How To Help The
Aghans Righ Now
<IMG border=0 height=1
src="gif00086.gif" width=1>
karve@wmi.co.in
Greetings,
As we work for long-term peace, justice, and plenty for all, many of us
also wish to find a trustworthy way to contribute in some small way to
immediate relief for those who have been most directly impacted by
ongoing military operations. As you probably know, the people of
Afghanistan were already suffering malnutrition and hunger due to
drought and internal military conflicts. Now, that crisis has become
more acute and will follow refugees into neighboring nations.
Many people have asked us to whom donations for immediate hunger relief
in Afghanistan and neighboring regions might be directed. My sources in
Pakistan tell me that the international agency Islamic Relief, which has
operations in both Pakistan and Afghanistan, is very reliable and is
working very hard to provide aid to those who need it most. This agency
does have a website through which individuals may easily make donations
targeted specifically to this relief effort.
Here is the URL for Islamic Relief: http://www.islamic-relief.com/
Here is the URL for making an online donation:
http://www.islamic-relief.com/SubMenu/Help/Register.asp
With warm regards and hopes for peace,
pattrice le-muire jones
Coordinator Global Hunger Alliance
http://www.globalhunger.net
PS -- please feel free to forward this message widely!
Dr. Priyadarshini KarveLecturer in Physics, Sinhgad College of Engineering,
Pune, India.Member, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute, Pune,
India.Founder Member, Sandarbh (an organisation devoted to science and
education), Pune, India.
Address for correspondence: 6, Koyna Apartments,
S.No.133, Kothrud, Pune 411 029, IndiaPhone:
91-020-5442217/5423258E-mail: <A
href="mailto:karve@wmi.co.in">karve@wmi.co.in / <A
href="mailto:adkarve@pn2.vsnl.net.in">adkarve@pn2.vsnl.net.in
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From ronallarson at qwest.net Sun Oct 14 21:53:31 2001
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:12 2004
Subject: Shell Foundation Meeting cancelled
Message-ID: <000201c1551b$c498a2e0$76b16441@computer>
Stovers:
Just back from London - with the
promised "report" on the Shell meeting. Unfortunately, the US-British
bombing of targets within Afghanistan caused the Shell organizers to call off
the meeting scheduled for October 11-13 - but we learned about it only on the
11th, after being in London for three days as a tourist.
We don<FONT face=Arial
size=2>'t begrudge the trip - as we found London to be much more of an
interesting place than we had guessed. America is justly proud of being a
melting pot - but London is even more so. And history is
everywhere. And museums. The best of the museums are also
free!! I wish I could say this meant that living is cheap in London
- but it is not.
Monday was mostly getting over
too little sleep crossing the Atlantic (plus a little touring).
We spent Tuesday getting to
understand London by traveling all around on a $22 "Big Bus" - three
different lecture tours about the great London features that can be seen in
almost every block. Saw the musical "Cats".
Wednesday was spent with Andrew
Heggie and his wife Anne - who live 45 minutes south of London near Woking
(village of Horsel) (Message #2).
Thursday we learned the bad news
about the meeting and spent the rest of the day seeing modern art at the Tate
Gallery (free) - Then had dinner with list member Grant Ballard-Tremeer and wife
Paulina. ((Message #3)
Friday we spent at ITDG with Liz
Bates 1.5 hours north of London in the Midlands - near Rugby (Message
#4).
Went to ITDG with Dean Still -
and learned a lot more about Approvecho (and Dean) - Message #5)
More coming up.
Ron
From ronallarson at qwest.net Mon Oct 15 08:28:13 2001
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:12 2004
Subject: Fw: Intl Course
Message-ID: <002101c15574$6fc91160$32f36641@computer>
"stovers"
I hope I am not duplicating an earlier message (as it is easier to work
backwards sometimes).
Ron
----- Original Message -----
From: Rangan Banerjee <rangan@me.iitb.ac.in>
To: <dialogue@shellfoundation.org>
Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2001 10:05 PM
Subject: Intl Course
>
> Friends,
> We are conducting a 2 week international course on Solar
> Energy in January 2002. The course is supported by MNES and participants
> do not have to pay any course fee or charges for lodging & boarding. We
> are keen to have a diversity in countries represented.
> Please circulate the notice for the programme to your
> colleagues in the energy field. In case you want a hard copy sent please
> email me the name & address.
> Regards,
> Rangan
>
> _________________________________________
>
> International Training Programme on Solar Energy
>
> Venue: Guest House, IIT Bombay, Powai, Mumbai-76.
> Sponsored by Ministry of Non-Conventional Energy Sources, India
>
> Dates: 7th January 2002 to 18th January 2002 (Participants are requested
> to arrive on 6th January)
>
> Course Objectives: This course is intended for professional in developing
> countries who are involved / interested in Solar energy. The course will
> provide inputs on analysis, design and testing of solar energy
> systems. The course has several hands-on laboratory sessions and tutorials
> to enrich the participants' knowledge and skills. This is supplemented by
> site visits to solar thermal and solar PV installations. The total number
> of participants will be restricted to 15 to facilitate
> interactions. Synthesis case studies will be assigned to participants and
> groups will make presentations on these towards the end of the course to
> test their understanding of the material taught.
>
> Course Contents: The topics covered will include:
> Overview of World Energy Scenario
> Overview of Renewables
> Energy Balances - Country Analysis
> Thermodynamics of Energy Conversion
> Solar Thermal Systems - An Overview
> Solar Laboratory Visit
> Solar PV Basics
> Solar Radiation Calculations
> Introduction to Solar Passive Concepts
> Solar PV laboratory experiments
> Testing of Solar Collectors
> Manufacturers - Experiences in manufacture / marketing of Solar
> Collectors
> Solar PV Systems - Design and Analysis
> Grid Connection of PV
> Manufacturers - Experiences in manufacture / marketing of Solar PV
> Power Generation from Solar Thermal
> Energy Economics
> Solar Refrigeration
> Refrigeration/Heat Pump Laboratory Visit
> Overview of Biomass Energy Systems
> Biomass Gasifier Laboratory Visit
> Energy Storage
> Energy Planning
> Indian Govt-Renewable Policy Experiences (MNES)
> Solar Drying
> Solar Cooking
> Solar Passive Architecture-II
> Tracking Systems
> Software Demos - TADSIM, Energy Planning DSS
> Wind Energy - An Overview
> Implementing Renewable Energy Programmes (MEDA)
> Financing Renewables (IREDA)
> Materials for Solar Cells
> Performance Analysis of Renewable Systems
> Solar Distillation
> Manufacturing Processes for Solar Thermal
> Manufacturing Processes for Solar PV
>
> Site Visits : Apart from the lectures, tutorials and laboratory sessions,
> site visits to industrial installations of Solar Thermal & PV in Mumbai
> and large installations in Lonavla and manufacturers facilities in Pune
> are planned.
>
> Nominations are invited from for professionals in developing countries who
> are involved / interested in Solar energy . There is no course
> fee. Boarding and Lodging at Mumbai will be supported by
> MNES. Participants only have to bear their international travel
> costs. Participation will be restricted to 15 to ensure better
> interaction.
>
> Please send in your nominations with your detailed bio-data,
> experience/interest in solar energy, letter of sponsorship from your
> organization by Nov 15 to
>
> Prof Rangan Banerjee
> Convenor
> Energy Systems Engineering
> IIT Bombay, Powai, Mumbai -400076
> (rangan@me.iitb.ac.in)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
> This forum has now concluded and there will be no further moderator¹s
> involvement. However, the address list will remain functional until 11
> October for any last-minute comments addressed to the workshop.
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
> Visit the on-line resources page at the Household Energy and Health
> Dialogue website
> (http://www.shellfoundation.org/dialogues/household_energy/resources/),
> where reference materials recommended by contributors to this forum have
> been posted.
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
>
>
-
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From ronallarson at qwest.net Mon Oct 15 08:45:47 2001
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:12 2004
Subject: Maximum possible efficiency
In-Reply-To: <2CB090FC30192549B04101547F33E93F720E41@exegrnnts005.seattleu.edu>
Message-ID: <013101c15576$c0ac3e20$32f36641@computer>
Ananda:
This is a very fine input. Thanks. Since I only received one copy, I
think you are not a member. I am sending it on, but think you should also
be a list member. Can I sign you up (free of course). More later.
Ron
----- Original Message -----
From: Cousins, Ananda <ACousins@seattleu.edu>
To: 'Dean Still' <dstill@epud.net>; Ron Larson <ronallarson@qwest.net>;
<stoves@crest.org>
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2001 5:28 PM
Subject: RE: Maximum possible efficiency
> Hello all,
>
> Here are some quick estimates for maximum possible stove efficiency as a
> function of two parameters: percentage of theoretical air required for
> combustion (100% means exactly the amount required to completely burn all
> the fuel) and air exit temperature from the stove active area (which may
be
> somewhat higher than the chimney exit temperature if heat is significant
> heat is lost through the chimney walls).
>
> Stove efficiency
>
>
> % THEORETICAL AIR
> AIR EXIT |
> TEMP(C) | 100 120 140 160 180 200
> ----------------------------------------------
> 100 | 95 94 93 92 91 90
> 150 | 92 90 89 87 85 84
> 200 | 89 86 84 82 80 77
> 250 | 85 82 80 77 74 71
> 300 | 82 79 75 71 68 64
> 350 | 79 75 70 66 62 58
> 400 | 76 71 66 61 56 51
> 450 | 72 67 61 56 50 45
> 500 | 69 63 57 51 44 38
>
> The analysis is based only on conservation of energy. I assume complete
> combustion, and the following constants taken from Sharma (ref. below):
>
> 6.5 kg of air required for complete stoichiometric combustion of 1 kg wood
> 10,000 kJ/kg lower heating value for reasonably dry wood
>
> Sharma also recommends that the excess air needs to be between 150-200% to
> assure complete combustion and to prevent formation of carbon monoxide.
>
> So if the air exit temperature is 150 C (302 F) and there is 200%
> theoretical air, the maximum efficiency (assuming no other losses) is 84%.
> However, other losses such as heat transfer through the stove walls and
heat
> losses from the cooking vessel will reduce this value. If a particular
type
> of stove/cooking vessel design is specified it should be possible to get
> better estimates.
>
> Reference: Sharma, S.K, "Improved Solid Biomass Burning Cookstoves: A
> Development Manual", FAO, Bangkok, Sept. 1993. Regional Wood Energy
> Development Program in Asia, GCP/RAS/154/NET, Field Document No. 44.
>
> Regards,
>
> Anand
>
> Anand Cousins
> Associate Professor
> Dept. of Mechanical and Manufacturing Engineering
> Seattle University, Seattle WA 98122-4340
> Tel.: (206) 296-5536 / Email: acousins@seattleu.edu
>
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From tombreed at home.com Tue Oct 16 16:00:49 2001
From: tombreed at home.com (Thomas Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:12 2004
Subject: Heat transfer to pots
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011009124222.00bd5f00@127.0.0.1>
Message-ID: <02bf01c15701$e4250620$18e5b618@lakwod3.co.home.com>
Dear Senf, Bryden and Stoves:
So far we have been focussing on improving stoves, and
certainly pot efficiency is a related problem we all need to
address.
However, for most cooks the pot is chosen relative to the
food, not the stove, so you will have a hard time convincing the cook to pick a
more efficient pot it it doesn't properly cook the food.
So let's mostly focus on better stoves that apply the heat to
various pots. Flames that are higher than the pot position waste fuel and
blacken the pot.
Meanwhile I'd appreciate any wisdom coming out of pot
research.
Yours
truly, TOM
REED
Dr. Thomas
Reed The Biomass Energy Foundation 1810 Smith Rd., Golden, CO
80401303 278 0558; <FONT
size=2>tombreed@home.com; <A
href="http://www.woodgas.com">www.woodgas.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Norbert Senf" <<A
href="mailto:mheat@mha-net.org">mheat@mha-net.org<FONT
size=2>>
To: "Andreatta, Dale A." <<A
href="mailto:dandreatta@fticonsulting.com"><FONT
size=2>dandreatta@fticonsulting.com>
Cc: <<FONT
size=2>stoves@crest.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2001 10:48 AM
Subject: RE: Heat transfer to pots
> At 11:34 AM 2001-10-09
-0400, Andreatta, Dale A. wrote:> >(snip) if anyone has any suggested
references, either on> >general stove information or about the details
of the heat transfer, feel> >free to suggest them.> > Hi
Dale:> > A classic in the field is:> Biomass Stoves by Sam
Baldwin> > <A
href="http://www.developmentbookshop.com/basket.phtml?isbn=866192743"><FONT
size=2>http://www.developmentbookshop.com/basket.phtml?isbn=866192743<FONT
size=2>> > Best ....... Norbert> >
----------------------------------------> Norbert Senf----------
<FONT
size=2>mheat@mha-net.org-nospam> Masonry Stove
Builders (remove -nospam)> RR 5, Shawville------- <A
href="http://www.heatkit.com">www.heatkit.com<FONT
size=2> > Quebec J0X 2Y0-------- fax:-----819.647.6082>
---------------------- voice:---819.647.5092> > > >
> > > -> Stoves List Archives and Website:>
<FONT
size=2>http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/<FONT
size=2>> <A
href="http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html"><FONT
size=2>http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html<FONT
size=2>> > Stoves List Moderators:> Ron Larson, <A
href="mailto:ronallarson@qwest.net"><FONT
size=2>ronallarson@qwest.net> Alex English,
<FONT
size=2>english@adan.kingston.net> Elsen L.
Karstad, <FONT
size=2>elk@wananchi.com <A
href="http://www.chardust.com">www.chardust.com<FONT
size=2>> > List-Post: <<A
href="mailto:stoves@crest.org"><FONT
size=2>mailto:stoves@crest.org>> List-Help:
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-> Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:> <A
href="http://www.fsec.ucf.edu/bioam/"><FONT
size=2>http://www.fsec.ucf.edu/bioam/> <A
href="http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/"><FONT
size=2>http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/<FONT
size=2>> <A
href="http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml"><FONT
size=2>http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml<FONT
size=2>> > For information about CHAMBERS STOVES> <A
href="http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm"><FONT
size=2>http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm<FONT
size=2>>
From ronallarson at qwest.net Wed Oct 17 04:53:36 2001
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:12 2004
Subject: Fw: Bio-gas technology likely to halt Sukuma witchcraft murders
Message-ID: <011301c1576f$ba8be040$4fe16641@computer>
stovers:
The following is potentially
directly relevant to this list, if we replace the word "bio-gas" with
"stoves". Anyone ever heard of such a form of "health impact"? from
traditional stoves?
I met with many of the
addressees at a "Village Power" meeting on Monday and Tuesday - and will report
back on its importance to stoves topics in the next few days as I get caught up
a bit more.
Ron
----- Original Message -----
From: <A
href="mailto:debra_lew@nrel.gov" title=debra_lew@nrel.gov>Debra Lew
To: <A href="mailto:roverend@tcplink.nrel.gov"
title=roverend@tcplink.nrel.gov>roverend@tcplink.nrel.gov ; <A
href="mailto:taylorr@tcplink.nrel.gov"
title=taylorr@tcplink.nrel.gov>taylorr@tcplink.nrel.gov ; <A
href="mailto:flowersl@tcplink.nrel.gov"
title=flowersl@tcplink.nrel.gov>flowersl@tcplink.nrel.gov ; <A
href="mailto:wallaceb@public3.bta.net.cn"
title=wallaceb@public3.bta.net.cn>wallaceb@public3.bta.net.cn ; <A
href="mailto:dkammen@socrates.berkeley.edu"
title=dkammen@socrates.berkeley.edu>dkammen@socrates.berkeley.edu ; <A
href="mailto:brooktrout@mindspring.com"
title=brooktrout@mindspring.com>brooktrout@mindspring.com ; <A
href="mailto:ronallarson@qwest.net"
title=ronallarson@qwest.net>ronallarson@qwest.net ; <A
href="mailto:dti@domtech.com" title=dti@domtech.com>dti@domtech.com ; <A
href="mailto:Rpwgough@aol.com" title=Rpwgough@aol.com>Rpwgough@aol.com ; <A
href="mailto:asa27@columbia.edu" title=asa27@columbia.edu>asa27@columbia.edu
; Duncan
Marsh
Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2001 12:57 PM
Subject: Bio-gas technology likely to halt Sukuma witchcraft
murders
Thought you might like this story
Sunday,By Simon Kivamwo,
Ngudu-KwimbaResidents of Ngudu, in Kwimba District, Mwanza region
areoptimistic that the wide-spread killings of old people suspectedof
witchcraft will soon come to an end if the recently introducedbiogas
technology reaches every household.These killings in both Mwanza and
Shinyanga regions which havebeen carried out by gangs of people have
affected poor, old womenwho are suspected of witchcraft simply because
they have red eyes.A week-long survey conducted here by journalists from
variousmedia houses has established that vulnerable old women are
nowoptimistic that the problem will come to an end soon should
theon-going installation of biogas technology reach every
house.Speaking to the journalists, Ms Veronica Petro, of Bugambe
villagein Nyamilama division, said since she started using
biogastechnology for cooking, three months ago, she has noticed that
hersight has improved."Not only that. We no longer have to travel long
distances tosearch for firewood, and now my eyes are as clear as ever,"
thewoman told the journalists, commenting on the advantages of
thetechnology.Tabu Samsoni of Milyungu village in Mwamashimba
Division, said shewas happy that the bad old days of attracting suspicion
simplybecause of having red eyes were now numbered.Narrating her
experience, Ms Tabu who is also the villageexecutive officer, said for a
quite number of years old women inSukuma villages have been the victims of
such killings."Being traditionally cooks in Sukumaland, we (women) have
beenvictimized by bogus people who link our red eyes with witchcraft.I
hope, if the technology spreads everywhere, we will be sparedfrom this
victimization," she said.Catherine Michael, of Mihinga village in Ngudu
Division, made asimilar observation and appealed to the government to
support thealready existing initiatives of making the biogas project
reacheverybody in the district."We are happy because, the well-wishers
have solved our long-termproblem of getting fuelwood," she said.The
biogas project in Ngudu, Kwimba District has been sponsoredand facilitated
by the United Nations Development Programme (UNDP)under the Small Grants
Projects (SGP).Ngudu is one of the most drought prone areas in Mwanza
whosepeople are forced to travel as far as five miles and beyond
tosearch for fuelwood for their domestic needs.Briefing journalists at
the beginning of the visit, the NguduDistrict Planning Officer, David
Mayeji, said until last month,about 100 demonstration biogas units had
been already constructed.He said, the units constructed in eight villages
between May 2000and September 2001 were worth about 27.89m/=.The units
have been constructed in the following villages:Nyamilama (18), Bugembe
(13), Mahiga (16), Ilumba (11), Ngudu(11), Kawekamo (12) and Bupamba
(6).Biogas technology, uses cow dug and water as its
raw-materials.--<A href="http://www.tanzanet.org/"
eudora="autourl">www.tanzanet.org
From dstill at epud.net Wed Oct 17 19:44:06 2001
From: dstill at epud.net (Dean Still)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:12 2004
Subject: visiting London
Message-ID: <001401c157ed$a15bd3e0$5615210c@default>
Dear Stovers,
Thought that this message had made it to the list but it must
have disappeared into the ether.
As Ron has said, he and I made it to London before hearing
that the Shell conference was postponed. I had never visited London before and
my wife and I had a wonderful time sightseeing. I also visited with Ron and his
wife, Grant Ballard Tremeer, Liz Bates and others from ITDG. Shell treated us
marvelously, great hotel, etc. and Lucy Sandy from Shell helped at every turn to
make our stay enjoyable.
Looking forward to meeting when conditions allow! Thanks to
all who were so hospitable!
Best,
Dean
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">
From tmiles at trmiles.com Wed Oct 17 22:03:57 2001
From: tmiles at trmiles.com (Tom Miles)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:12 2004
Subject: archives?
In-Reply-To: <001401c157ed$a15bd3e0$5615210c@default>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011018110501.01f03070@pop3.norton.antivirus>
See the link in the footer of each message.
>http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
Tom Miles
At 01:42 PM 10/18/01 -0400, edatkeson@earthlink.net wrote:
>Hi stove forum,
>Just got here -- are this list's messages archived anywhere?
>Can you give me the link?
>thnx,
>Ed Atkeson
>Albany, NY
>
>-
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>
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>
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>-
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>
>For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
>http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm
Thomas R Miles tmiles@trmiles.com
T R Miles, TCI Tel 503-292-0107
1470 SW Woodward Way Fax 503-292-2919
Portland, OR 97225 USA
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From lanny at roman.net Sat Oct 20 01:17:48 2001
From: lanny at roman.net (Lanny Henson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:12 2004
Subject: Lanny Rocket Stove #2
Message-ID: <006201c159ac$a8324bc0$b1ba3cd0@default>
Lanny's Rocket Stove #2
Lanny's Rocket Stove #2 is a prototype made from 18 ga, 20 ga, and 28 ga
galvanized steel.
I tried to make this stove/burner flexible so that I can test different
configurations without having to build so many prototypes. Testing is fun but
metal fabrication is not.
It has an adjustable height and pitch grate. The rocket leg can be easily
replaced so that I can test different secondary air intakes. * It has an outer
jacket that is spaced and sealed with fiberglass rope. Heated secondary
combustion air is drawn from the jacket space.
I have exaggerated some of the features. It has a long (draft height) to make
sure that could get enough airflow and the fuel hopper leg is larger and longer.
I will compact some parts later.
After several good burns and a few failures I have a better understanding for
what will work. I have some ideas for modifications to improve Lanny Rocket #2.
For one thing I will chop off some height. Also I will change the secondary air
intake and put it closer to the combustion zone, and make the volume of the
secondary air adjustable. And I will try a focused primary air intake.
Here are 10 photos of about 60 KB each. <A
href="http://www.roman.net/~lanny/r2.html"><FONT
size=2>http://www.roman.net/~lanny/r2.html
* I can see many uses for fiberglass rope in stove design, door seals, jacket
spacers and seals and how about spiraling it around a pot underneath a jacket?
The heat would spend a lot more time on the pot.
Lanny Henson
From andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com Sat Oct 20 01:37:01 2001
From: andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com (AJH)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:12 2004
Subject: Lanny Rocket Stove #2
In-Reply-To: <006201c159ac$a8324bc0$b1ba3cd0@default>
Message-ID: <fjr3ttosg15mm2uujvdd28c4v8gs78g78c@4ax.com>
On Sat, 20 Oct 2001 17:17:31 -0400, "Lanny Henson" <lanny@roman.net>
wrote:
>Lanny's Rocket Stove #2
>
>Lanny's Rocket Stove #2 is a prototype made from 18 ga, 20 ga, and 28 ga galvanized steel.
I would be careful about burning off galvanising, I see from the
pictures that a "spot" of discolouration is beginning at the
intersection of the fuel hopper and fuel, I believe the zinc oxide
aerosol given off is harmful.
<snip>
>I have exaggerated some of the features. It has a long (draft height) to make sure that could get enough airflow and the fuel hopper leg is larger and longer. I will compact some parts later.
>
>After several good burns and a few failures I have a better understanding for what will work. I have some ideas for modifications to improve Lanny Rocket #2. For one thing I will chop off some height. Also I will change the secondary air intake and put it closer to the combustion zone, and make the volume of the secondary air adjustable. And I will try a focused primary air intake.
I like the hopper feed, it lends itself to metering the fuel into the
fire. I have considered a configuration like this for feeding a basic,
non compacted, pellet of agri waste into the stove. It is one of the
things I discussed with Ronal.
>
>Here are 10 photos of about 60 KB each. http://www.roman.net/~lanny/r2.html
>
>* I can see many uses for fiberglass rope in stove design, door seals, jacket spacers and seals and how about spiraling it around a pot underneath a jacket? The heat would spend a lot more time on the pot.
The idea of a helical flue path around the pot but formed in the flue
seems a good way of increasing gas contact time. Again Ronal and I
discussed this in relation to a similar use in military field
kitchens.
AJH
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From dstill at epud.net Sat Oct 20 20:42:29 2001
From: dstill at epud.net (Dean Still)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:12 2004
Subject: Reply to Lanny Rocket Stove #2
Message-ID: <002901c15a4d$e6381020$6715210c@default>
WOW, Lanny!!
That is so amazing! I wish that we lived closer! It's great
that you're doing all of this experimenting! The prototype looks very clean and
efficient.
Feeding long sticks in an enclosed tube has sometimes caused
the smoke to gather up into the tube and even, when things go very wrong, to
start drafting the wrong way. So Larry usually tries to shorten the feed
magazine tube as much as possible, to guide sticks but to be less of a
chimney.Of course, that may not be a problem in your design because of the tall
insulated chimney. I'm glad that the combustion is clean. How are you preheating
secondary air and where does it enter the combustion chamber?
Here is what I'm prototyping this week. I wonder if you like
the idea? I was thinking that smoke would have a better chance of combusting if
the chimney part of the Rocket combustion chamber was not a cylinder but an
annulus. In a cylindrical space smoke can fly up the inside of the chimney
without coming close enough to hot walls or flame to combust and escape. But in
an annulus with the same cross sectional area, smoke has to pass through a
narrow space between two walls that are above 1200F. My hope is that this
arrangement might be cleaner.
To my surprise, a closed four inch in diameter cylinder inside
a six inch open cylinder 14 inches high made a chimney that developed more draft
than a four inch cylindrical chimney of an equal height. And the prototype stove
using the annulus seems to burn cleanly. I'll compare the two types
ASAP.
I'll add one more observation: this stove with the 14 inch
high chimney did not make an appreciable amount of coals as the fire was
burning... At the end of a 20 minute burn there wasn't leftover coals or even
much ash because the draft sucked the ash up the superheated chimney. When low
mass, insulated Rocket combustion chimneys are this tall (14") the draft
helps the fire to burn cleaner so coals don't seem to be formed very often. The
downside with this situation is that A.) the pot is further away and a 8"
chimney is more fuel efficient. and B.) the fire can go out easily since there
is so little heated mass around the fire helping to keep it going if sticks are
not fed in at the right rate and C.) the draft can suck flame up the chimney too
fast helping to extinguish the fire.
So, I'm going to see what happens when the next prototype is
made from homemade insulating ceramic, adding some mass.
If we play at this stove game long enough, something wonderful
might evolve! Great to see your beautiful stove, Lanny!
Best,
Dean
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">
From crispin at newdawn.sz Sat Oct 20 21:59:58 2001
From: crispin at newdawn.sz (Crispin)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:12 2004
Subject: Progress and Tests
Message-ID: <009d01c159f5$a27c4fc0$50e80fc4@home>
Dear Stovers
I should report in on the adventures of Paul and Jack and the stoves in
Swaziland.
Paul took the time one evening to explain in great detail the operation of
Tom Reed's stoves. It was intersting to get a hands-off but first-hand
explanation of Tom's interesting work.
It is now clear to me that, in spite of several people mentioning in emails
the similarities in basic shape (which I also noted), the Tsotso and
Basintuthu stoves are very different from the Turbo Stoves, the charcoaling
stoves, the Rocket and the top-lighters in general.
I am not sure if it is true but apparently Dave Hancock was a student of Dr
Winiarsky in the early '80's. That may point out certain truths and
coincidences. Whatever the case, Hancock's stove is a bottom lighting,
refuelable, single pot cooker with preheated secondary air injection
organized in such a way that the injection rate (hot air velocity throught
the holes) is accelerated with a tapered fire grate/box. This optimizes (or
attempts to) the gas mixing in the centre. The air control cuts off both
primary and secondary. There is not attempt to separate them. What does
not get used a primary air is available for secondary combustion.
The Basintuthu is a variation on this theme with more pre-heating of the
secondary air, primary air pre-heating and then available in two versions:
single airflow control, or separate primary and secondary. The latter model
which was supposed to get on the plane with Dr Anderson missed the flight
because the customs control people in South Africa don't work on Saturdays
(!) and it could not get cleared in time to reach him. Oh well. Sometimes
life is not completely predictable. I will arrange something else for him.
The stove was to go to Dr Reed for evaluation.
The other significant thing about the Basintuthu Stove is that it is
designed for mass production from the start, not as a lab effort which would
then look into the price, after optimizing the burning. That places certain
restrictions on the construction.
In the past week we did several test 'boils' (sounds disgusting) with
different wood types. Most of the non-pine wood was pretty green and tended
to have a lot of volatiles in the bark.
We have added a large washer to the bottom of the new stainless steel grate
to limit primary air entry to try charcoaling the wood in the early stages.
This was successful. The Primary air was also blocked from the lower part
of the grate with a sleeve dropped into the grate. This promoted the
formation of charcoal and gassification, though we are still using a bottom
lighted arrangement because it has to be re-fuelable when cooking.
There is a general problem with this charcoaling arrangement: the fire tends
to be very big during the initial stages and then it drops significantly in
heat output as the charcoal starts to burn. In fact, the only way to get a
consistent heat output was to put in our square briquettes which burned very
evenly without 'big flames' followed by glowing coals.
The power output is far too high for general use in the present setup. This
might be reduced and the heat production lengthened by severely limiting the
primary air, but all things considered, we think the fuel is a problem too.
It is too small in diameter and top lighting is not going to solve that.
Paul suggested we top light a full fuel load (which would be about 800 gm)
however we can't maintain a top light configuration after dropping in more
fuel. Top lighting will remain a problem until we work out how to feed in
fuel from the bottom, if that is even possible.
The fast-boiling test is not completely indicative of the usefulness of the
stove. It is basically a power test. To get a fast boil is not difficult.
Let the air run! We get consistent figures of around 8 minutes to boil 3
litres of water in an aluminum pot for the various combinations, but to get
it we have to run a wasteful fire. The flames in the secondary gasses are
running well up past the top of the pot! Allowing gobs of secondary air
drives the falmes higher.
The fuel is not suited to a lower heat output as the surface area is large
and the volatiles content high. We boiled 3.5 litres in nine minutes on
Thursday evening with quite damp acacia branches. Smoke is produce in these
circumstances. I am getting more concerned to get efficiency tests. The
power is available if we want it.
It is clear that the primary air heating is keeping the outside temperature
of the stove down. This is a welcome event. The heat shield, which is a
cylinder made from 0.6mm galv sheet, surrounds the pot just inside the pot's
wind shield. The purpose is to keep the heat away from the stove's exterior
as the flames make the turn from under the pot to the vertical run up the
side. The effect of this heat shield is pronounced. The zinc coating
melted and ran down in globs. The outside temperature of the stove droped
by at least 150 degrees and that heat is retained or reflected to the pot.
It is 150mm high and 170mm in diameter. The pot sits about 1/2 way into it.
I understand now the reasons Tom Reed is doing a top light - looking for no
smoke. On the present model we are getting smoke for between 60 and 90
seconds from lighting the match. I think that is pretty good for a bottom
lit fire. The stainless steel grate definitely reduces that time period.
The 3mm mild steel grate is colder and takes about 150-300 seconds for a
full secondary burn to take hold. The stainless steel is very reflective
and the surface of the material (1.2mm thick) heats up faster as it conducts
heat about 40% as well as mild steel. Though this means it takes longer to
get heated through per mm of thickness, the surface temp is already quite
high after 1 minute and that gives preheated secondary air.
By reproducing Tom's bottom cylindrical grate filled with wood and choking
off the primary air and letting the secondary air run full, we were able to
reproduce the Turbo Stove's basic operation, except we have preheated
secondary air. One condition for this was that the grate had to be only
about 1/3 full to be a charcoal-producing gassifier. Oh yeah, we are still
lighting it from the bottom. This still gives too much gas in the early
stages from the fuel we have. The high temperatures in the grate are fuming
off the wood at a high rate. Perhaps we can get some larger wood to see it
that problem goes away. Paul felt that the overproduction of gasses would
diminish if it were top lit.
Excessive heat can be controlled of course by lighting a smaller fire and
feeding more fuel in every few minutes. The briquettes were OK in that
regard, with 2 being added about every 15 minutes.
I will be away for the next week or so and not in regular contact.
Regards to all
Crispin in Swaziland
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From ronallarson at qwest.net Sun Oct 21 02:02:41 2001
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:12 2004
Subject: Fw: DfID workshop on improved stoves Oct 17 2001
Message-ID: <001201c15a7c$1ba61bc0$3cf86641@computer>
-Stovers:
The following note was sent to me off-list - as taken from the HEDON
list. I checked out the full report at the site below and found it to offer
a lot of good advice coming from major successful stove-introduction
programs in Kenya and Ethiopia (and one coming along in Uganda). One topic
highlighted in that report that I would like to see discussed on this list
is: how to ensure continued high quality once one does develop and introduce
an improved stove? I believe this was done successfully in China through
government certification. Is there any other method? Do others see this as
a problem? Did any "stoves" list members attend this workshop?
Ron
>
> Workshop puts spotlight on Poverty Alleviation from Improved Stoves
>
>
> A workshop, held in the London office of the UK Government's Department
for
> International Development (DFID) on Wednesday 17 October 2001, focussed on
the
> poverty alleviation potential of improved stoves, principally in an
> urban/commercial context. The workshop was one step in the dissemination
of
> results from a project carried out by Energy for Sustainable Development
Ltd
> (ESD) through the DFID Knowledge and Research programme, examining the
poverty
> alleviation impacts of improved urban stoves in urban areas of Kenya,
Ethiopia
> and Uganda.
>
> The project results show that, particularly in Kenya and Ethiopia, there
have
> been positive effects on the livelihoods of producers as well as positive
> impacts on consumers from the improved stoves programme. Major findings
include:
> Successful commercial stoves do lead to improved producer livelihoods
and
> poverty reduction.
> Successful commercial stoves also do lead to improved consumer
livelihoods.
> Consumer perception is a key to the success of an improved stove
programme.
> Action is required to preserve quality of improved stoves under the
fierce
> competition of a successful programme.
> Government and donor support is critical, not through subsidies, but
> through providing key resources (such as business development and
planning
> support) in the ongoing commercial development process.
>
> DFID provided an extension to this project from June 2001 for which the
> primary aim was to disseminate the results to key stakeholders in
Uganda. A
> national workshop was held there at the end of June involving the
> participation of producers, urban poverty NGOs and numerous other
interested
> representatives. The project and dissemination results are now feeding
into
> two new improved stoves programmes in Uganda.
>
> Further information, including a downloadable version of the full
project
> report can also be found on the project website (given below).
>
>
> Web page for further info: http://povertystoves.energyprojects.net
>
>
> For further information email: Ottavia Mazzoni at ottavia@esd.co.uk
>
>
>
>
>
>
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From andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com Sun Oct 21 02:23:43 2001
From: andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com (AJH)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:12 2004
Subject: Progress and Tests
In-Reply-To: <009d01c159f5$a27c4fc0$50e80fc4@home>
Message-ID: <9hi6ttou4f1pv9m2tmkbbhu39im9gvd9qc@4ax.com>
On Sun, 21 Oct 2001 07:59:32 +0200, "Crispin" <crispin@newdawn.sz>
wrote:
<snip>
>There is a general problem with this charcoaling arrangement: the fire tends
>to be very big during the initial stages and then it drops significantly in
>heat output as the charcoal starts to burn. In fact, the only way to get a
>consistent heat output was to put in our square briquettes which burned very
>evenly without 'big flames' followed by glowing coals.
Perhaps I can interject a few of my thoughts, Ronal complained that I
had not posted some of my thoughts which are my opinions and not in
any way "expert".
Crispin you have summed up the problems with batch loading, if the
fuel has a large surface area to volume ratio the evolution of
pyrolysis products is fast. Increase the particle size and the rate of
charring of the outside slows the heat transfer to the middle, so
pyrolysis is slowed down until the interior reaches ~230C.
>
>The power output is far too high for general use in the present setup. This
>might be reduced and the heat production lengthened by severely limiting the
>primary air, but all things considered, we think the fuel is a problem too.
>It is too small in diameter and top lighting is not going to solve that.
>Paul suggested we top light a full fuel load (which would be about 800 gm)
>however we can't maintain a top light configuration after dropping in more
>fuel. Top lighting will remain a problem until we work out how to feed in
>fuel from the bottom, if that is even possible.
It is possible, but more costly.
<snip>
>The fuel is not suited to a lower heat output as the surface area is large
>and the volatiles content high. We boiled 3.5 litres in nine minutes on
>Thursday evening with quite damp acacia branches. Smoke is produce in these
>circumstances. I am getting more concerned to get efficiency tests. The
>power is available if we want it.
Exactly, the pyrolysis products have a cv of ~12MJ/kg, the
gasification of the char yields ~5MJ/kg, essentially because the
nitrogen in the air required for gasification dilutes the off gas.
Pyrolysis gas is evolved all the time the temperature of the remaining
un reacted fuel is >230C.
<snip>
>
>I understand now the reasons Tom Reed is doing a top light - looking for no
>smoke.
Fair enough, the idd stove incinerates any smoke as it passes through
the secondary combustion. The idd concept has many attributes I can
identify a few as:
1 All offgas passes through a secondary flame
2 Offgas cv remains high (though this may be modified for a number of
reasons)
3 Offgas cv stays fairly constant and hence combustion air can be set
constant with little variation in pollutants (Alex English published
some data on this).
4 Power output is fairly constant (this to my mind is a major
attribute, the only other way I can see achieving this is by metering
the fuel, in essence the pyrolysis front moving smoothly through a
homogeneous fuel mimics continuous stoking with no labour input)
I have a diatribe on this which missed being posted to the group,
perhaps Tami or Ronal will take the subject up again when they have a
bit of time?
<snip>
>By reproducing Tom's bottom cylindrical grate filled with wood and choking
>off the primary air and letting the secondary air run full, we were able to
>reproduce the Turbo Stove's basic operation, except we have preheated
>secondary air. One condition for this was that the grate had to be only
>about 1/3 full to be a charcoal-producing gassifier. Oh yeah, we are still
>lighting it from the bottom. This still gives too much gas in the early
>stages from the fuel we have. The high temperatures in the grate are fuming
>off the wood at a high rate. Perhaps we can get some larger wood to see it
>that problem goes away. Paul felt that the overproduction of gasses would
>diminish if it were top lit.
Again you demonstrate the point, batch loaded processes start with a
small smoky fire because the offgas is a mixture of CO2 and pyrolysis
gas which is of too low a cv to burn easily, thence the main mass
reaches a temperature that sustains pyrolysis, the cv goes up even
with no further input of primary air, CO2 goes down as it reacts with
hot coals, the cv is maximised at this point and primary air no longer
has any significant controlling effect. Once the main mass has
pyrolysed then the cv drops as the char turns into a C0 generator (as
long as certain conditions remain fulfilled). The things that modify
this is the moisture content of the biomass and its surface area to
volume ratio (size).
>
>Excessive heat can be controlled of course by lighting a smaller fire and
>feeding more fuel in every few minutes. The briquettes were OK in that
>regard, with 2 being added about every 15 minutes.
>
Which is the other way of tackling the problem as I mentioned in my
post to Larry, in essence can we make a cheap stove that mimics the
current pellet stoves of the developed world without using electrical
fans and feeds or pellets that have been formed by crushing the
biomass cellular structure at great cost in capital and electricity?
>I will be away for the next week or so and not in regular contact.
You'll not see this reply for a while then?
AJH
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From ronallarson at qwest.net Sun Oct 21 02:48:59 2001
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:12 2004
Subject: Progress and Tests
In-Reply-To: <009d01c159f5$a27c4fc0$50e80fc4@home>
Message-ID: <006301c15a82$7ac28020$3cf86641@computer>
Stovers:
Andrew just said:
>I have a diatribe on this which missed being posted to the group,
>perhaps Tami or Ronal will take the subject up again when they have a
>bit of time?
I've got a few days of time-critical proposal writing ahead of me (for the
Colorado Renewable Energy Society trying to raise funds for a local college
student group entering a new 2002 US national College competition called
"Solar Decathlon", in case anyone has extra cash lying around). After that,
I will get back into the business of "diatribes" (which really Andrew didn't
do). Thanks to Andrew, Crispin, Dean, and Lanny for some very interesting
recent posts that I wish I had a little time to get into.
Ron
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From dstill at epud.net Sun Oct 21 05:27:29 2001
From: dstill at epud.net (Dean Still)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:12 2004
Subject: Metering fuel simply in Progress and Tests
Message-ID: <003401c15a7d$eeab4c60$7515210c@default>
DEAR STOVERS,
THANKS SO MUCH TO AJH AND CRISPIN FOR THE GREAT TOUR THROUGH FOR WHAT IS FOR
ME A RELATIVELY UNEXPLORED PATTERN OF BURNING. SINCE I'M USED TO GOING FOR
INITIAL COMPLETE COMBUSTION IT'S ALWAYS FASCINATING TO CONTEMPLATE OTHER
APPROACHES TO CLEAN BURNING.
I AM COPYING A FRAGMENT OF THEIR CONVERSATION:
>Excessive heat can be controlled of course by lighting a smaller fire and
>feeding more fuel in every few minutes. The briquettes were OK in that
>regard, with 2 being added about every 15 minutes.
>
Which is the other way of tackling the problem as I mentioned in my
post to Larry, in essence can we make a cheap stove that mimics the
current pellet stoves of the developed world without using electrical
fans and feeds or pellets that have been formed by crushing the
biomass cellular structure at great cost in capital and electricity?
DOESN'T FEEDING STICKS OF WOOD INTO THE FIRE TIP FIRST PRETTY MUCH
ACCOMPLISH THE TASK? METERING THE FUEL BY PUSHING THE ENDS OF STICKS INTO
THE OPEN FIRE AS THEY ARE CONSUMED EVOLVED AS A TRADITIONAL PRIMARY
TECHNIQUE FOR COMPLETE COMBUSTION. METERING THE FUEL IN THIS MANNER INTO AN
INSULATED COMBUSTION CHAMBER RESULTS IN EVEN CLEANER COMBUSTION.
GREAT DISCUSSION. THANKS AGAIN.
BEST,
DEAN
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From andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com Sun Oct 21 11:06:23 2001
From: andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com (AJH)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:12 2004
Subject: Metering fuel simply in Progress and Tests
In-Reply-To: <003401c15a7d$eeab4c60$7515210c@default>
Message-ID: <j5h7tt0q130h25o879hpkfbgss6denn031@4ax.com>
On Sun, 21 Oct 2001 15:15:05 -0700, "Dean Still" <dstill@epud.net>
wrote:
>DOESN'T FEEDING STICKS OF WOOD INTO THE FIRE TIP FIRST PRETTY MUCH
>ACCOMPLISH THE TASK? METERING THE FUEL BY PUSHING THE ENDS OF STICKS INTO
>THE OPEN FIRE AS THEY ARE CONSUMED EVOLVED AS A TRADITIONAL PRIMARY
>TECHNIQUE FOR COMPLETE COMBUSTION.
IMO yes! As you say the small length of stick in the combustion zone
means the fuel conditions in the combustion zone remain about
constant, if the "cook" feeds at a constant rate. At any one moment
there is approximately the same amount of new wood drying, then
pyrolysing and finally char being consumed, so also a constant air
supply can be maintained. A similar arrangement was typical in
inglenook fireplaces which burn cordwood, andirons lift the ends of
the cordwood away from the fire and heat loss by radiation increases,
hence that length of log no overlapping its neighbours goes out, the
fire remains in the centre region where mutual radiation keeps
everything hot enough (this of course is overall a very low efficiency
fire).
My reason for wanting a novel fuel metering arrangement is to allow
burning of non woody fuels which may be wasted at present.
AJH
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From kchishol at fox.nstn.ca Sun Oct 21 17:04:25 2001
From: kchishol at fox.nstn.ca (Kevin Chisholm)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:12 2004
Subject: where's the ash?
In-Reply-To: <000a01c1508d$3baeb240$5e41083e@default>
Message-ID: <NEBBLHHHOLFOEGCILKHEIEENDDAA.kchishol@fox.nstn.ca>
Dear
Elk
<SPAN
class=450530113-22102001>
The loss in
ash weight is a "LOI" loss... where "LOI" is "Loss on Ignition". (Assuming, of
course, there is no physical loss of ash material.
<SPAN
class=450530113-22102001>
Several
factors can contribute to "LOI":
<SPAN
class=450530113-22102001>
1: Bound
water, or "water of hydration" can be eliminated.
2: Carbon and
sulphur can be oxidized
3:
Carbonates, such as limestone, can be calcined.
4: Some
metals can volatilize..... eg, zinc can oxidize readily, and the zinc oxide fume
can volatilize.
Kindest
regards,
<SPAN
class=450530113-22102001>
Kevin
Chisholm
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">
<FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----From: elk
[mailto:elk@wananchi.com]Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2001 3:40
AMTo: stoves@crest.orgSubject: where's the
ash?
Stovers: we've been scratching my head over this
one here at Chardust........
An experimental briquette with the following
components mixed in at an air-dry basis (verified):
0.5% PVA (polyvinyl alcohol)
10% clay (I assume dolomitic- of volcanic
origin)
39.5% carbonized coffee husk
This briquette when burnt in boiling test trials
consistently produces ash residue less than 10%...... in the region of
8%.
The ash residue remains in the shape of the
original briquette- so there's little if any 'fly ash' escaping.
Where's the ash gone? Does clay burn? We would
expect pure carbonized coffee husk to have around 12% ash by dry weight at our
33% charcoal conversion efficiency. Add 10% clay to this and residual ash
should rise by nearly an equal amount- say another 8%. Therefore this
briquette should leave something like 20% ash.... not 8!
.......strange....... any ideas?
thanks;
elk
--------------------------Elsen L.
Karstadelk@wananchi.com<A
href="http://www.chardust.com">www.chardust.comNairobi
Kenya
From k.prasad at tue.nl Sun Oct 21 19:21:30 2001
From: k.prasad at tue.nl (K.Prasad)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:12 2004
Subject: Metering fuel simply in Progress and Tests
Message-ID: <200110221522.f9MFMUK19406@mailhost.tue.nl>
Dear Dean, Andrew and others
The way the fuel burns in a batch loading system has been studied by the
Woodburning Stove Group in the eighties. Some of these results are
available on our website
<www.cookstove.net>
There are more results on the so-called downdraft burner. But this is not
yet in the website. We expect to upgrade the site in the coming months.
Prasad
----------
> From: Dean Still <dstill@epud.net>
> To: AJH <andrew.heggie@dtn.ntl.com>; stoves@crest.org
> Subject: Re: Metering fuel simply in Progress and Tests
> Date: maandag 22 oktober 2001 0:15
>
> DEAR STOVERS,
>
> THANKS SO MUCH TO AJH AND CRISPIN FOR THE GREAT TOUR THROUGH FOR WHAT IS
FOR
> ME A RELATIVELY UNEXPLORED PATTERN OF BURNING. SINCE I'M USED TO GOING
FOR
> INITIAL COMPLETE COMBUSTION IT'S ALWAYS FASCINATING TO CONTEMPLATE OTHER
> APPROACHES TO CLEAN BURNING.
>
> I AM COPYING A FRAGMENT OF THEIR CONVERSATION:
>
> >Excessive heat can be controlled of course by lighting a smaller fire
and
> >feeding more fuel in every few minutes. The briquettes were OK in that
> >regard, with 2 being added about every 15 minutes.
> >
> Which is the other way of tackling the problem as I mentioned in my
> post to Larry, in essence can we make a cheap stove that mimics the
> current pellet stoves of the developed world without using electrical
> fans and feeds or pellets that have been formed by crushing the
> biomass cellular structure at great cost in capital and electricity?
>
> DOESN'T FEEDING STICKS OF WOOD INTO THE FIRE TIP FIRST PRETTY MUCH
> ACCOMPLISH THE TASK? METERING THE FUEL BY PUSHING THE ENDS OF STICKS INTO
> THE OPEN FIRE AS THEY ARE CONSUMED EVOLVED AS A TRADITIONAL PRIMARY
> TECHNIQUE FOR COMPLETE COMBUSTION. METERING THE FUEL IN THIS MANNER INTO
AN
> INSULATED COMBUSTION CHAMBER RESULTS IN EVEN CLEANER COMBUSTION.
>
> GREAT DISCUSSION. THANKS AGAIN.
>
> BEST,
>
> DEAN
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -
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>
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From kijabe at worldonline.co.za Sun Oct 21 22:33:57 2001
From: kijabe at worldonline.co.za (Kijabe)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:13 2004
Subject: Metering fuel simply in Progress and Tests
In-Reply-To: <003401c15a7d$eeab4c60$7515210c@default>
Message-ID: <002d01c15b73$a26fff20$56f2ef9b@co.za>
Please delete me from your email list.
Regards,
nm
----- Original Message -----
From: Dean Still <dstill@epud.net>
To: AJH <andrew.heggie@dtn.ntl.com>; <stoves@crest.org>
Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2001 3:15 PM
Subject: Re: Metering fuel simply in Progress and Tests
> DEAR STOVERS,
>
> THANKS SO MUCH TO AJH AND CRISPIN FOR THE GREAT TOUR THROUGH FOR WHAT IS
FOR
> ME A RELATIVELY UNEXPLORED PATTERN OF BURNING. SINCE I'M USED TO GOING FOR
> INITIAL COMPLETE COMBUSTION IT'S ALWAYS FASCINATING TO CONTEMPLATE OTHER
> APPROACHES TO CLEAN BURNING.
>
> I AM COPYING A FRAGMENT OF THEIR CONVERSATION:
>
> >Excessive heat can be controlled of course by lighting a smaller fire and
> >feeding more fuel in every few minutes. The briquettes were OK in that
> >regard, with 2 being added about every 15 minutes.
> >
> Which is the other way of tackling the problem as I mentioned in my
> post to Larry, in essence can we make a cheap stove that mimics the
> current pellet stoves of the developed world without using electrical
> fans and feeds or pellets that have been formed by crushing the
> biomass cellular structure at great cost in capital and electricity?
>
> DOESN'T FEEDING STICKS OF WOOD INTO THE FIRE TIP FIRST PRETTY MUCH
> ACCOMPLISH THE TASK? METERING THE FUEL BY PUSHING THE ENDS OF STICKS INTO
> THE OPEN FIRE AS THEY ARE CONSUMED EVOLVED AS A TRADITIONAL PRIMARY
> TECHNIQUE FOR COMPLETE COMBUSTION. METERING THE FUEL IN THIS MANNER INTO
AN
> INSULATED COMBUSTION CHAMBER RESULTS IN EVEN CLEANER COMBUSTION.
>
> GREAT DISCUSSION. THANKS AGAIN.
>
> BEST,
>
> DEAN
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -
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From psanders at ilstu.edu Sun Oct 21 23:12:06 2001
From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:13 2004
Subject: Stove design: Refueling a top-lit gasifier
In-Reply-To: <009d01c159f5$a27c4fc0$50e80fc4@home>
Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20011022132507.00c24100@mail.ilstu.edu>
Stovers,
Well, I have been to Africa and returned. One highlight was my 36 hours
with Crispin and Margaret (gracious hosts) in Swaziland.
Crispin is now on a 2 week trip, so his replies will come later.
At 07:59 AM 10/21/01 +0200, Crispin wrote:
>By reproducing Tom's bottom cylindrical grate filled with wood and choking
>off the primary air and letting the secondary air run full, we were able to
>reproduce the Turbo Stove's basic operation, except we have preheated
>secondary air.
One correction here: The TURBO stove (IDD type) is the one with the
battery powered blower, and it definitely ROARS in comparison with the
"non-turbo" natural convection IDD gasifier stove that Tom Reed developed
earlier and which was the subject of my discussions with Crispin.
>One condition for this was that the grate had to be only
>about 1/3 full to be a charcoal-producing gassifier.
In my novice ways with stoves, I do not know if everyone uses the word
"grate" the same way. The grate (to me) would be the supporting
"grill/grate" that is flat at the bottom of a can, keeping the fuel from
falling through to the bottom of the "can" which has sides that hold the
fuel in place. Certainly Crispin's grate is more like a basket-container
that holds the fuel. Therefore, Crispin's "basket-grate" controls the
height of both the amount of fuel (in the lower part) and the area of the
secondary air mixing and subsequent combustion (in the higher part of the
basket) with combustion possibly continuing above the top lip of the
basket-grate.
>Oh yeah, we are still
>lighting it from the bottom. This still gives too much gas in the early
>stages from the fuel we have. The high temperatures in the grate are fuming
>off the wood at a high rate. Perhaps we can get some larger wood to see it
>that problem goes away. Paul felt that the overproduction of gasses would
>diminish if it were top lit.
Tom Reed has a separate lower unit for gasification (lit on top of this
lower unit) and a separate upper unit for secondary combustion. I am
referring to the NC IDD wood-gasifier stove (natural convection inverted
downdraft) and not to the Turbo Stove.
In my modifications of the Reed NC IDD stove, I have drawn (and intend to
build if I can find the assistance I need) a separately supported upper
unit for secondary combustion. Then the lower (gasifier) unit can be
placed under the upper unit, and also be removed when desired.
The intention is to place fuel into the lower unit, top-light it, place it
into position under the upper combustion unit, have pyrolysis driving off
the gasses while making charcoal in the lower unit. When (almost) all of
the initial fuel has been changed to charcoal, the lower unit could be left
in place to burn up all of the charcoal. However, it is constructed so
that it is removed easily with a handle or tongs. A second identical
lower unit is to be available, ready with fuel. Some of the charcoal
is "poured" (shaken) from the first lower unit onto the top of the second
lower unit that is then placed into the position for gasification in the NC
IDD stove. The hot charcoal from the first lower unit is then either
burned in a second stove appropriate for charcoal, or extinguished by
smothering or quenching (or other ways to extinguish??).
Therefore, I believe that ONE answer to the problem of "refueling or
recharging" a TOP lighted gasifier unit is to simply replace it with a
second unit. Please remember that the major combustion (the secondary
combustion) occurs in the upper unit, upon which is place the pot or pan or
oven or whatever.
I am also working on the preheating of secondary and primary air, with
significant suggestions from Crispin. (But that is another topic.)
Paul
Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders
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From psanders at ilstu.edu Mon Oct 22 01:00:17 2001
From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:13 2004
Subject: Chimney shape(s)
In-Reply-To: <002901c15a4d$e6381020$6715210c@default>
Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20011022154607.00d56f00@mail.ilstu.edu>
Of note:
At 09:31 AM 10/21/01 -0700, Dean Still wrote:
To my surprise, a closed four inch in diameter cylinder
inside a six inch open cylinder 14 inches high made a chimney that
developed more draft than a four inch cylindrical chimney of an equal
height. And the prototype stove using the annulus seems to burn cleanly.
I'll compare the two types ASAP.
See Tom Reed's and Ron Larson's 1996 paper (previously distributed via
e-mail) concerning the small NC IDD wood gasifier. They had a large
diameter upper chamber (about 8 inches I think) with a "wick"
(closed cylinder about 4 inches in diameter) in the middle to force the
secondary combustion gases to go up in a donut shape. Prevented the
flame from blowing around in the full large diameter opening.
But probably had an un-noticed side effect of improving the draft, as
noted in Dean's experiments.
Tom and others told me that the heat coming out so far from the center of
the pot was not good, so instead of a wick (blocking cylinder) in the
center, I am thinking of tapering inward the sides of the upper
chamber to give only a reduced hole (about 2 - 3 inches diameter) in the
center to focus the flame.
But now I wonder what the experts can tell me about that tapered (conical
or straight sided) chamber.
1. Will it promote the chimney effect or reduce it?
2. Any comments on the best size of the exit hole?
3. Being tapered inwards, the heat of the combustion will certainly
hit the sides, making the sides hotter. Is that good, especially
when side-wall heating is considered to be a way to get pre-heated
secondary air (and/or even pre-heated primary air)?
4. Crispin's basket-type grate is intentionally tapered to be wider
at the top (for secondary air to enter better into the scene in the lower
levels, but then the combustion and heat continue upwards in a
non-tapered area of the container-can. Should we taper outwards in
the lower area, and then inwards in the upper area (sort of fat in the
middle?)?
Paul
Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 -
7/00
Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State
University
Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice:
309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items:
www.ilstu.edu/~psanders
From willing at mb.sympatico.ca Tue Oct 23 20:01:54 2001
From: willing at mb.sympatico.ca (Scott Willing)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:13 2004
Subject: OT: A philosophical note
Message-ID: <3BD6A095.23863.402AC1D@localhost>
Howdy stovers.
I first discovered the stoves list while doing research into solar
power in anticipation of some day making a move to a rural
homestead. The plan was to try to disconnect somewhat from
consumer society, reduce my ecological footprint and see how far I
could go to achieving a sustainable post-consumer existence.
Through research into solar power, I found Crest, and from Crest
came stoves.
In due course, and far more easily than I expected, I did indeed
leave the city behind.
I signed onto stoves initially because I now heat my little space
with a combination of passive solar and wood, and there is
precious little unbiased information available about stoves in a
North American context. Beyond the mental picture of iron stoves
for heating and cooking, and the experience of living quite happily
for weeks at a time with my little backpack stove (running highly
refined fossil fuel of course) I had never given much thought to
stoves in the past.
I quickly found out that the stoves list is populated by a dedicated
collection of highly-skilled experts scattered all over the world. For
the most part it would appear that this group is developing low-
cost, high-efficiency, cheap and locally-produceable stoves to
improve the lives of people far, far less privileged than myself.
People who would think of having my old airtight heater, and having
abundant wood to feed it, as the height of luxury. (Which it is.)
I remain subscribed to the stoves list despite the fact that 90% of
the posts go over my head due to their highly technical nature. (If
they involved MOSFET transistors I might be able to keep up!)
Lately I've been wondering why I do remain subscribed.
I think it is probably because I have a persistent dream of a world in
which knowledge is shared for the common good in an atmosphere
of mutual respect, rather than being held in secret for exploitation
by a select few. As much as this seems impossibly utopian ideal, I
can't stop asking the simple question "why not?"
Despite the deluge of daily emails, many of which invite me to
spend more money on more useless stuff, I think I stay subscribed
to the list because it is a small window into the world that I would
wish for all of us. I only wish I could assist in some way.
Bless you all.
Scott Willing
Boggy Creek, Manitoba
Canada
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From psanders at ilstu.edu Tue Oct 23 23:51:40 2001
From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:13 2004
Subject: OT: A philosophical note
In-Reply-To: <3BD6A095.23863.402AC1D@localhost>
Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20011024145907.016e4a00@mail.ilstu.edu>
Scott,
You are a valued member of the Stoves group because:
You care.
You will find your niche in Stoves, I am sure.
Paul
At 11:05 AM 10/24/01 -0500, Scott Willing wrote:
>Howdy stovers.
>
>I first discovered the stoves list while doing research into solar
>power in anticipation of some day making a move to a rural
>homestead. The plan was to try to disconnect somewhat from
>consumer society, reduce my ecological footprint and see how far I
>could go to achieving a sustainable post-consumer existence.
>Through research into solar power, I found Crest, and from Crest
>came stoves.
>
>In due course, and far more easily than I expected, I did indeed
>leave the city behind.
>
>I signed onto stoves initially because I now heat my little space
>with a combination of passive solar and wood, and there is
>precious little unbiased information available about stoves in a
>North American context. Beyond the mental picture of iron stoves
>for heating and cooking, and the experience of living quite happily
>for weeks at a time with my little backpack stove (running highly
>refined fossil fuel of course) I had never given much thought to
>stoves in the past.
>
>I quickly found out that the stoves list is populated by a dedicated
>collection of highly-skilled experts scattered all over the world. For
>the most part it would appear that this group is developing low-
>cost, high-efficiency, cheap and locally-produceable stoves to
>improve the lives of people far, far less privileged than myself.
>People who would think of having my old airtight heater, and having
>abundant wood to feed it, as the height of luxury. (Which it is.)
>
>I remain subscribed to the stoves list despite the fact that 90% of
>the posts go over my head due to their highly technical nature. (If
>they involved MOSFET transistors I might be able to keep up!)
>
>Lately I've been wondering why I do remain subscribed.
>
>I think it is probably because I have a persistent dream of a world in
>which knowledge is shared for the common good in an atmosphere
>of mutual respect, rather than being held in secret for exploitation
>by a select few. As much as this seems impossibly utopian ideal, I
>can't stop asking the simple question "why not?"
>
>Despite the deluge of daily emails, many of which invite me to
>spend more money on more useless stuff, I think I stay subscribed
>to the list because it is a small window into the world that I would
>wish for all of us. I only wish I could assist in some way.
>
>Bless you all.
>Scott Willing
>Boggy Creek, Manitoba
>Canada
>
>-
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>http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
>http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
>
>Stoves List Moderators:
>Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
>Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
>Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
>
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>-
>Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
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>http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
>http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml
>
>For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
>http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm
Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders
-
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For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
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From wood at superaje.com Wed Oct 24 01:19:53 2001
From: wood at superaje.com (Cal Wallis)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:13 2004
Subject: North American Stoves
Message-ID: <v04210106b7fcdfd86645@[209.87.249.135]>
Scott Willing said: there is precious little unbiased information
available about stoves in a North American context.
This is true, but The Wood Heat Organization at
http://www.woodheat.org is just that.
Cal Wallis
-
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For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
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From willing at mb.sympatico.ca Wed Oct 24 01:26:02 2001
From: willing at mb.sympatico.ca (Scott Willing)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:13 2004
Subject: North American Stoves
In-Reply-To: <v04210106b7fcdfd86645@[209.87.249.135]>
Message-ID: <3BD6ECA1.20208.35BE90@localhost>
Cal,
> Scott Willing said: there is precious little unbiased information
> available about stoves in a North American context.
>
> This is true, but The Wood Heat Organization at
> http://www.woodheat.org is just that.
Indeed I should have added the link to my statement, since this
was the exactly the precious resource I was thinking of.
-s
>
> Cal Wallis
>
> -
> Stoves List Archives and Website:
> http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
> http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
>
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>
> For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
> http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm
>
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For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
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From rbailis at socrates.berkeley.edu Wed Oct 24 10:39:23 2001
From: rbailis at socrates.berkeley.edu (Robert Bailis)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:13 2004
Subject: Paper on Biomass, Climate Change, and Development
Message-ID: <3BD7B70A.F27F530C@socrates.berkeley.edu>
Hello Stovers,
Please excuse any cross-postings. I am writing to tell you that a final
draft of the document that Dan Kammen, Antonia Herzog and I have been
working on for the UNDP about bioenergy, poverty and climate change is
now posted on our lab website. You can view and/or download it at:
http://socrates.berkeley.edu/~rael/RAEL_UNDP_Biomass_CDM.pdf
The document is long. If you are restricted in your ability to
download, but would like a copy, we can send one through the mail,
though it will take some time, as the UN will not have them available
until the conference gets underway.
We appreciate the feedback we got from some of you after Dan's original
posting. This document will be distributed to delegates at COP7, the
upcoming climate change conference in Marakkech, Morocco. It will go
out in its present form, though we still consider it a draft version. We
hope to do some additional revisions based on comments we receive as
well as on the outcome of the negotiations in Morocco, where some of the
outstanding issues governing the CDM and land use should be decided .
Following the next round of revisions it will hopefully see wider
dissemination. My coauthors and I would most certainly welcome your
comments on any part of the paper. Regards,
Rob Bailis
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From Carl.Carley at eml.ericsson.se Wed Oct 24 11:51:52 2001
From: Carl.Carley at eml.ericsson.se (Carl Carley (EML))
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:13 2004
Subject: A philosophical note
Message-ID: <BBB80FB03D54D51192DA0002A56B0248057395@EUKBANT103>
Scott,
I'll go along with your viewpoint, I pickup snippets here and there, I'm on the gasification list and the wastewatts list both to gain ideas and inspiration from others. Tell you though, the babington burner currently being discussed on the wastewatts list is something else! You can burn old unfiltered engine oil or cooking oil cleanly and it's such a simple design. I suppose, keeping on the stoves them you could easily adapt the design for cooking or spaceheating.
se ya all
Carl - England
-----Original Message-----
From: Scott Willing [mailto:willing@mb.sympatico.ca]
Sent: 24 October 2001 17:06
To: stoves@crest.org
Subject: OT: A philosophical note
Howdy stovers.
I first discovered the stoves list while doing research into solar
power in anticipation of some day making a move to a rural
homestead. The plan was to try to disconnect somewhat from
consumer society, reduce my ecological footprint and see how far I
could go to achieving a sustainable post-consumer existence.
Through research into solar power, I found Crest, and from Crest
came stoves.
In due course, and far more easily than I expected, I did indeed
leave the city behind.
I signed onto stoves initially because I now heat my little space
with a combination of passive solar and wood, and there is
precious little unbiased information available about stoves in a
North American context. Beyond the mental picture of iron stoves
for heating and cooking, and the experience of living quite happily
for weeks at a time with my little backpack stove (running highly
refined fossil fuel of course) I had never given much thought to
stoves in the past.
I quickly found out that the stoves list is populated by a dedicated
collection of highly-skilled experts scattered all over the world. For
the most part it would appear that this group is developing low-
cost, high-efficiency, cheap and locally-produceable stoves to
improve the lives of people far, far less privileged than myself.
People who would think of having my old airtight heater, and having
abundant wood to feed it, as the height of luxury. (Which it is.)
I remain subscribed to the stoves list despite the fact that 90% of
the posts go over my head due to their highly technical nature. (If
they involved MOSFET transistors I might be able to keep up!)
Lately I've been wondering why I do remain subscribed.
I think it is probably because I have a persistent dream of a world in
which knowledge is shared for the common good in an atmosphere
of mutual respect, rather than being held in secret for exploitation
by a select few. As much as this seems impossibly utopian ideal, I
can't stop asking the simple question "why not?"
Despite the deluge of daily emails, many of which invite me to
spend more money on more useless stuff, I think I stay subscribed
to the list because it is a small window into the world that I would
wish for all of us. I only wish I could assist in some way.
Bless you all.
Scott Willing
Boggy Creek, Manitoba
Canada
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From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Thu Oct 25 14:58:01 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:13 2004
Subject: Heating Stoves
In-Reply-To: <v04210106b7fcdfd86645@[209.87.249.135]>
Message-ID: <3BD8608D.5FC465EC@cybershamanix.com>
I'm wondering if anyone has tried adapting a woodgas stove design,
like the 10 can stove, for instance, to heating, rather than cooking. I
was thinking of making something like that, a bit bigger, then putting a
long flue pipe on it that zig-zags back and forth until there was no
heat left in it, perhaps with a small fan at the end to pull any
particulates.
Any ideas?
--
Harmon Seaver, MLIS
CyberShamanix
Work 920-203-9633
Home 920-233-5820
hseaver@cybershamanix.com
http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html
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From psanders at ilstu.edu Thu Oct 25 15:35:49 2001
From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:13 2004
Subject: Heating Stoves
In-Reply-To: <v04210106b7fcdfd86645@[209.87.249.135]>
Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20011025143830.016fbba0@mail.ilstu.edu>
At 01:57 PM 10/25/01 -0500, Harmon Seaver wrote:
> I'm wondering if anyone has tried adapting a woodgas stove design,
>like the 10 can stove, for instance, to heating, rather than cooking.
Harmon,
I am working on modification of Tom Reed's and Ron Larson's NC IDD woodgas
stove design that is made of two "number 10" tin cans. Is that what you
mean by "the 10 can stove" or am I confusing the issue?
I am not looking at it from the point of "heating", but I can see wisdom in
your thinking. Please tell me more, including your intended use (home;
Third World; workshop areas, etc) and size.
There is a separate listserve for gasification, but I do not subscribe to
that list, so please be sure to keep this discussion (or updates) on the
Stoves listserve.
I am interested in hearing what the others have to say about "stoves for
heating."
Paul
>I
>was thinking of making something like that, a bit bigger, then putting a
>long flue pipe on it that zig-zags back and forth until there was no
>heat left in it, perhaps with a small fan at the end to pull any
>particulates.
> Any ideas?
>
>--
>Harmon Seaver, MLIS
>CyberShamanix
>Work 920-203-9633
>Home 920-233-5820
>hseaver@cybershamanix.com
>http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html
>
>
>
>-
>Stoves List Archives and Website:
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>http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
>
>Stoves List Moderators:
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>
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>
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>-
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>
>For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
>http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm
Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders
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From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Thu Oct 25 20:52:00 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:13 2004
Subject: Heating Stoves
In-Reply-To: <v04210106b7fcdfd86645@[209.87.249.135]>
Message-ID: <3BD8B38D.F5A73F0E@cybershamanix.com>
"Paul S. Anderson" wrote:
> At 01:57 PM 10/25/01 -0500, Harmon Seaver wrote:
> > I'm wondering if anyone has tried adapting a woodgas stove design,
> >like the 10 can stove, for instance, to heating, rather than cooking.
>
> Harmon,
>
> I am working on modification of Tom Reed's and Ron Larson's NC IDD woodgas
> stove design that is made of two "number 10" tin cans. Is that what you
> mean by "the 10 can stove" or am I confusing the issue?
Well, I was looking at Boyt's stove that is made from 10 different
cans, but actually meaning any of these new, cleanburn woodgas designs in
general. How well could they be made to work with green, or semi-green wood
chips?
>
>
> I am not looking at it from the point of "heating", but I can see wisdom in
> your thinking. Please tell me more, including your intended use (home;
> Third World; workshop areas, etc) and size.
My intended use would be for heating a workshop, and just general
experimentaion, however, I would think there to be a serious ThirdWorld need
as well, at least in areas such as Afghanistan. Maybe the heat output of the
cooking stoves is enough to warm small areas, but I'd think some design with
easier reloading would be needed.
>
>
> There is a separate listserve for gasification, but I do not subscribe to
> that list, so please be sure to keep this discussion (or updates) on the
> Stoves listserve.
Yes, I'm on the gas-l list, but it's pretty dead.
--
Harmon Seaver, MLIS
CyberShamanix
Work 920-203-9633
Home 920-233-5820
hseaver@cybershamanix.com
http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html
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From dstill at epud.net Fri Oct 26 01:17:00 2001
From: dstill at epud.net (Dean Still)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:13 2004
Subject: Reply to Heating Stoves
Message-ID: <000c01c15dae$53c078e0$5615210c@default>
Dear Paul and Harmon,
For both cooking stoves and heating stoves fuel efficiency is in large part
determined by the efficiency of the heat exchanger. (The pot in the first
case.) High mass stoves use all those tons of stone to keep heat in the
room. A big fire does not overheat the room because the mass absorbs the
excess heat and releases it at a slower rate hopefully matched to the
house's loss.
An air to air heat exchanger is cheaper and suited to installation in first,
second and third class accommodations.. Good heat exchangers have the
following characteristics:
large surface area
great difference between surface and room temperatures
prolonged dwell time of heat
good conductivity
Chimneys are very poor heat exchangers. Heat flies out of the room. Forcing
heat to pass in the 1" gap between a completely sealed thirty three gallon
metal drum placed inside a fifty five gallon drum ( the original chimney
enters the bottom of the drum and another section of pipe exits from the
top) creates a "chimney" with about the same cross sectional area but with
much better efficiency of heat transfer to the room.
So the job of the combustion chamber is to change biomass into heat cleanly,
as completely as possible. Fuel efficiency is obtained mostly by getting the
heat into the room, which can be accomplished by air to mass, air to water
and air to air heat exchangers. Most modern stoves miss the point almost
entirely and use way too much wood because even the EPA approved stoves try
to use a steel box both as combustion chamber and heat exchanger. Most
modern heating stoves do neither job efficiently which is why Aprovecho
designed wood heating stoves separate functions for efficiency.
You can make stoves that use recycled materials, burn much less wood and
burn cleaner yourself.
Try a heat exchanger as a first step. Get exit temperatures down to around
250F. Or better yet, use a fan and get exit temperatures down to room
temperatures and coast through the winter using branches not logs.
Best,
Dean
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From ronallarson at qwest.net Fri Oct 26 12:17:30 2001
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:13 2004
Subject: Heating Stoves
In-Reply-To: <v04210106b7fcdfd86645@[209.87.249.135]>
Message-ID: <006401c15e39$ef529c80$2be06641@computer>
Stovers: Paul (quoting with " >>") and Harmon (quoting with ">") asked a
few questions. See some thoughts below.
> "Paul S. Anderson" wrote:
>
> > At 01:57 PM 10/25/01 -0500, Harmon Seaver wrote:
> > > I'm wondering if anyone has tried adapting a woodgas stove
design,
> > >like the 10 can stove, for instance, to heating, rather than cooking.
> >
> > Harmon,
> >
> > I am working on modification of Tom Reed's and Ron Larson's NC IDD
woodgas
> > stove design that is made of two "number 10" tin cans. Is that what you
> > mean by "the 10 can stove" or am I confusing the issue?
>
> Well, I was looking at Boyt's stove that is made from 10 different
> cans, but actually meaning any of these new, cleanburn woodgas designs in
> general.
(RWL): To Paul - Harmon is referring to diagrams and photos (that
don't quite agree with each other) sent to Alex' web site
(http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html) about 3.5 years ago by
Richard Boyt. Richard is a retired ceramics Professor at Crowder College
in Missouri. Neither the sketches nor photos do justice to the beautiful
metal working that Richard did with his tests. The ten cans shown are
mostly used for heat reflection. I would love to know if Richard ever made
a ceramic version like this. My guess is that the many cans used by Richard
would give an efficiency over 50%. He has very tortuous paths for the aair
flow that leads to preheating and improved efficiency. (But I think using
the heat radiating radially from the combustion chamber rather than the fuel
chamber would be a better choice.)
>
> How well could they be made to work with green, or semi-green wood
> chips?
>
(RWL) to Harmon. I think all (?) of us working with charcoal-making
stoves (CMS) would caution against any but the dryest woods. It may even be
that in humid parts of the world that "dry" wood is not sufficiently dry.
This could be a major difficulty that I don't believe has been adequately
explored in actual practice. (Tom Reed reported on some tests maybe a year
ago.) If such stoves were in wide use in humid locations, I guess that the
next day's fuel would be being dried in racks with the combustion gases or
with heat radiated radially from the stove itself. Whether this is a major
drawback for the CMS remains to be seen.
(RWL): You also used the term "chips". Tom uses a small blower to get
over the large resistance that a significant thickness of chips provides.
Richard, Paul, and myself have all (I think) been using twigs or small dead
branches (important to be in a vertical orientation) - and all with natural
convection. To use chips with natural convection you will have to limit
yourself to thin layers and taller combustion chambers ("chimneys")
(RWL): This is a good chance to say also that my visit a few weeks ago
with Andrew Heggie amazed me on the ability to dry with (moderately hot)
steam. The water in the wet branches can be "boiled" away (and collected to
possibly obtain a valuable commodity - it tasted good). In larger
charcoal-making operations, this is a wonderful use to be made from the
flared gases - that are now usually only vented (not combusted) with
horrible impacts on the environment. (Charcoalers usually work with wet
wood.)
> >
> >
> > I am not looking at it from the point of "heating", but I can see wisdom
in
> > your thinking. Please tell me more, including your intended use (home;
> > Third World; workshop areas, etc) and size.
>
> My intended use would be for heating a workshop, and just general
> experimentaion, however, I would think there to be a serious ThirdWorld
need
> as well, at least in areas such as Afghanistan. Maybe the heat output of
the
> cooking stoves is enough to warm small areas, but I'd think some design
with
> easier reloading would be needed.
>
(RWL): As others have said recently, there is nothing about the design
of a natural draft CMS that precludes easy reloading. But my guess also is
that cooks will soon learn to cook with the right amount of "twigs" in the
fuel container for the task at hand. A few more people coming for dinner
and a few more twigs. If you regularly find a need for refueling this type
of stove, yoiu probably need a bigger one (or two of them of different
sizes). This observation extends up to the size needed for overnight
heating - Tom Duke demonstrated many hours of low output (few kW) space
heating back in 1996 (?) using this approach. (And the fuel cost might be
negative if you can sell or use the charcoal output)
.
(RWL): I think the emphasis on a CMS should be on the "fact" (still
needs more proof) that this is the cleanest-burning stove around. In my new
view, the charcoal co-product is valuable where people want and are using
charcoal for whatever reason - but charcoal is now not the reason for
further development. If you have no use for charcoal - there are probably
better (not necessarily cleaner) ways to do your cooking or heating. I
still have not seen a good design for combusting the charcoal after making
it, in the stove that makes it. Doesn't say it can't be done - but no one
has yet reported data showing that the efficiency was high nor the output
readily controlled when the charcoal was consumed in the container in which
it was manufactured.
(RWL) "Last" point - chips (and lots of other small waste material)
might still be possible with a natural-draft CMS if configured in the
"holey" briquette form. Not enough work reported yet on this combination.
(see also final note below)
> >
> ><snip>
> --
> Harmon Seaver, MLIS
> CyberShamanix
> Work 920-203-9633
> Home 920-233-5820
> hseaver@cybershamanix.com
> http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html
>
>
(RWL): Paul - I suggest you look at Harmon's "cybershamanix web site -
this man has some interesting background in his vita that could be
especially helpful on your "stoves" documentation project.
-
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From psanders at ilstu.edu Fri Oct 26 18:43:05 2001
From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:13 2004
Subject: "best" stoves
In-Reply-To: <v04210106b7fcdfd86645@[209.87.249.135]>
Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20011026130108.016f3460@mail.ilstu.edu>
At 10:19 AM 10/26/01 -0600, Ron Larson wrote:
(RWL): To Paul
- Harmon is referring to diagrams and photos (that
don't quite agree with each other) sent to Alex' web site
(http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html)
In case anyone else on the Stoves list has not visited the above site, it
is a MUST. How did I miss it in the past?
(RWL): You also used
the term "chips". Tom uses a small blower to get
over the large resistance that a significant thickness of chips
provides.
I just thought the blower was to increase air supply, not as a factor of
the type of fuel thickness. I can now see that relationship, also
because you added
using twigs or small dead
branches (important to be in a vertical
orientation) - and all with natural
convection. To use chips with natural convection you will have to
limit
yourself to thin layers and taller combustion chambers
("chimneys")
"taller combustion chambers" means NOT in the (lower) gasifier
area, right? but yes in the upper chamber for the secondary
combustion? Is there any impact of height (vs diameter) in
the lower chamber for gasification?
(RWL): As others have
said recently, there is nothing about the design
of a natural draft CMS that precludes easy reloading. But my guess
also is
that cooks will soon learn to cook with the right amount of
"twigs" in the
fuel container for the task at hand. A few more people coming for
dinner
and a few more twigs. If you regularly find a need for refueling
this type
of stove, you probably need a bigger one (or two of them of
different
sizes).
I think I disagree, especially because you later say TWO things:
1.
> I still have not seen a good design for combusting the charcoal
after making
it, in the stove that makes it.
2.
> (And the fuel cost might be negative if you can sell or use the
charcoal output).
Therefore, we DO want to save the charcoal for (later) burning in a
different stove, and therefore we DO want to pull out the
residue-charcoal after successful gasification.
This observation extends up to the size needed
for overnight
heating - Tom Duke demonstrated many hours of low output (few kW)
space
heating back in 1996 (?) using this approach. (And the fuel cost
might be
negative if you can sell or use the charcoal output)
.
(RWL): I think the emphasis on a CMS
should be on the "fact" (still
needs more proof) that this is the cleanest-burning stove
around.
I want to agree, but I have no additional support for your
statement. But let me ask (for clarification): Because
Charcoal Manufacturing (CM) implies gasification, and because natural
convection (NC) gasification implies UP-draft (which is the same as the
Reed-Larson IDD inverted down draft), then you are saying that the NC IDD
"should be...the cleanest burning stove around." ??
Are you saying that?
And I repeat that I want to agree with that statement and that I am
working on getting better results. But am I interpreting
correctly what you said? AND/OR is there any
other sufficiently similar design to receive similar favorable
comments?
You (Ron) continue:
In my new
view, the charcoal co-product is valuable where people want and are
using
charcoal for whatever reason - but charcoal is now not the reason
for
further development. If you have no use for charcoal -
I add: If you have no use for charcoal --- (but it is easily
available as a byproduct of an accepted cooking stove), ... then
people could find a use for the charcoal in various ways.
Therefore, it is better to think of developing appropriate uses of
charcoal than to be satisfied with less-than-best stoves.
Ron wrote:
there are probably
better (not necessarily cleaner) ways to do your cooking or heating.
Please give some guidelines or suggestions.
I still have not seen a good design for
combusting the charcoal after making
it, in the stove that makes it. Doesn't say it can't be done - but
no one
has yet reported data showing that the efficiency was high nor the
output
readily controlled when the charcoal was consumed in the container in
which
it was manufactured.
Can someone please describe the best (or possibly best) stoves
specifically for charcoal?
And what is/are the major differences between those and the stoves for
A. wood burning and
B. for gasifying.
(RWL)
"Last" point - chips (and lots of other small waste
material)
might still be possible with a natural-draft CMS if configured in
the
"holey" briquette form. Not enough work reported yet on
this combination.
Oh yes, let's not forget the fuels that are shaped for better
burning. Not a small topic.
(RWL): Paul - I suggest you
look at Harmon's "cybershamanix web site -
this man has some interesting background in his vita that could be
especially helpful on your "stoves" documentation
project.
And a note to Harmon: Are you familiar with the project concerning
the stoves documentation?
Paul
> --
> Harmon Seaver, MLIS
> CyberShamanix
> Work 920-203-9633
> Home 920-233-5820
> hseaver@cybershamanix.com
>
http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html
>
>
Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 -
7/00
Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State
University
Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice:
309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items:
www.ilstu.edu/~psanders
From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Fri Oct 26 19:51:36 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:13 2004
Subject: "best" stoves
In-Reply-To: <v04210106b7fcdfd86645@[209.87.249.135]>
Message-ID: <3BD9F6E0.BA6D6712@cybershamanix.com>
"Paul S. Anderson" wrote:
> (RWL): You also used the term "chips". Tom uses a small blower
> to get
>
>> over the large resistance that a significant thickness of chips
>> provides.
>
>
> I just thought the blower was to increase air supply, not as a factor
> of the type of fuel thickness. I can now see that relationship, also
> because you added
>
Are there any diagrams around of stoves with blower
arrangements? Seems like I've seen something long, long ago, but one of
the heating stove ideas I had was for a forced draft via a ring of air
nozzles around the combustion area, more up later in a secondary
combustion area, and then another small fan at the very end of a long,
complicated heat exchanger area to pull the cold whatever out. I'm
thinking also that this would go a long way to deal with green wood.
Of course, that probably also negates it's usefulness for
3rdWorld, but not for me.
>> (RWL): Paul - I suggest you look at Harmon's "cybershamanix web
>> site -
>> this man has some interesting background in his vita that could be
>> especially helpful on your "stoves" documentation project.
>
>
> And a note to Harmon: Are you familiar with the project concerning
> the stoves documentation?
>
Not at all. What's it about?
--
Harmon Seaver, MLIS
CyberShamanix
Work 920-203-9633
Home 920-233-5820
hseaver@cybershamanix.com
http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html
-
Stoves List Archives and Website:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
Stoves List Moderators:
Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
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-
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http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml
For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm
From ronallarson at qwest.net Sat Oct 27 00:55:58 2001
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:13 2004
Subject: Fw: "best" stoves
Message-ID: <004601c15ea2$f553b060$87a86441@computer>
Paul: some answers below.
You said:
<SNIP>
<FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3>>"taller combustion chambers" means NOT in the (lower)
gasifier area, right? but yes in the upper chamber for the >secondary
combustion? Is there any impact of height (vs diameter) in the lower
chamber for gasification?(RWL): Yes there
is some impact of height, but nowhere near as much as for the (much) hotter
upper chamber. I cannot reproduce it now nor describe it well, but at one
time I was able to draw diagrams of pressure, usng the techniques I found in
ASHRAE (American Society of Heating, Refrigeraion and Airconditioning Engineers)
technical handbooks (I think that is the right term - they produce many
different publications and you need the most technical). There is a big
pressure drop as one controls the primary air input, then more as you travel
through the twigs, and then a change in slope as you travel past the pyrolysis
front and produce the hot pyrolysis gas. In the vicinity of the secondary
air ports, there is a lower pressure (relative to the pressure outside the
stove) caused by the hot (less dense) gases above, that forces the
secondary air inward (loosely speaking we can say both the primary and
secondary air are "sucked" in). To do all this mathematically, one
certainly has to consider the height of the lower chamber (and I am not
aware of anyone doing this in a model - my work was conceptual only).
But I don't think the lower chamber height is a major effect.
Similarly the lower chamber
diameter is a factor, but again I don't think it is critical.
Experimentally, we have heard of work from less than 10 cm diameter up to at
least 30 and maybe more. The problem with larger diameters is in getting
the diffusion flame to be finished quickly enough. Much work still to be
done with improved turbulence, etc.
Older Larson nest
>> (RWL): As others
have said recently, there is nothing about the designof a natural draft
CMS that precludes easy reloading. But my guess also isthat cooks
will soon learn to cook with the right amount of "twigs" in thefuel
container for the task at hand. A few more people coming for
dinnerand a few more twigs. If you regularly find a need for
refueling this typeof stove, you probably need a bigger one (or two of
them of differentsizes).
>I think I disagree, especially because you later say TWO
things:1.>> I still have not seen a good design for combusting
the charcoal after makingit, in the stove that makes it. 2.>
>(And the fuel cost might be negative if you can sell or use the charcoal
output).>Therefore, we DO want to save the charcoal for (later)
burning in a different stove, and therefore we DO want to pull out the
>residue-charcoal after successful gasification.
(RWL): So far we seem to
agree.
>>This observation extends up to the size
needed for overnightheating - Tom Duke demonstrated many hours of low
output (few kW) spaceheating back in 1996 (?) using this approach.
(And the fuel cost might benegative if you can sell or use the charcoal
output). >>(RWL): I think the
emphasis on a CMS should be on the "fact" (stillneeds more proof) that
this is the cleanest-burning stove around.
>I want to agree, but I have no additional support for your
statement. But let me ask (for clarification): Because Charcoal
>Manufacturing (CM) implies gasification, and because natural convection (NC)
gasification implies UP-draft (which is the >same as the Reed-Larson IDD
inverted down draft), then you are saying that the NC IDD "should be...the
cleanest burning >stove around." ?? Are you saying
that?
(RWL): There may be
a little confusion on nomenclature here. I prefer to use the term
"pyrolysis" for what goes on in a CMS. When many people use the term
"gasification" they often are turning charcoal into a gas as well. Another
problem is that down draft systems are typically (but not necessarily)
electrically powered. Down draft apparati are not usually conducive
to charcoal production. The work of Elsen Karstad violates both of these
statements (his charcoal-from-sawdust approach has no electric power and
is down-draft). I guess the difference is that his pyrolysis zone moves
upward and he keeps adding fuel - not the approach in most down draft work
where the pyrolysis zone needs to be kept stationary. I don't use the term
IDD because I don't feel it will be meaningful in developing countries, whereas
charcoal-making seems to be well understood immediately. So in conclusion
- yes I am saying that this CMS (the same you are working on I believe) is apt
to be "the cleanest burning stove around". Why this is so seems to be due
to the fact that the pyrolysis and combustion processes are separated in time
and space - and each can be separately optimized. The price paid is some
complexity in handling the air (but excellent controllability) and the
batch limitation. Still not understanding your
disagreement above with what I said (about cooks learning to handle the size of
the fuel load to handle the expected cooking task)
>And I repeat that I want to agree with that statement and that I am
working on getting better results. But am I interpreting
>correctly what you said? AND/OR is there any other
sufficiently similar design to receive similar favorable comments?
(RWL): I am afraid I
haven't seen any emissions data for a really good stove appropriate for
developing countries. The work on low polluting US heating stoves is done
with techniques I haven't tried to understand - as they seemed to require
catalytic convertors and always had chimneys - and didn't seem likely to be
affordable. But again, I repeat that my initial excursion into this world
of cooking was strictly trying to find a better and low cost way to make
charcoal. The low pollution and easy controllability aspects were
serendipitous. There may be other ways to achieve low emissions - I
just haven't yet seen them (and this is especially true about "holey"
briquettes (which seem initially to only be pyrolyzing) - we need some emissions
testing badly.
>You (Ron) continue:
>> In my new>>view, the
charcoal co-product is valuable where people want and are
using>>charcoal for whatever reason - but charcoal is now not the
reason for>>further development. If you have no use for
charcoal -
>I add: If you have no use for charcoal --- (but it is easily
available as a byproduct of an accepted cooking stove), ... then
>people could find a use for the charcoal in various
ways.>Therefore, it is better to think of developing appropriate uses
of charcoal than to be satisfied with less-than-best stoves.
(RWL): We seem to be in agreement. But
we need to keep emphasizing as well that a low-emitting CMS need not be
expensive.
It is NOT a law of nature that low emissions
and easy, rapid power control equates to high cost.
>Ron wrote:
>>there are probably>better (not
necessarily cleaner) ways to do your cooking or heating.
>Please give some guidelines or suggestions.
(RWL): I was thinking of
the Approvecho "Rocket Stove" - I still have not seen emissions data from
it - but think it is well designed and seems to be low-cost and certainly is
easy to add fuel. There may be some designs related to "holey" briquettes
as well. I also was thinking of the ZZ stove - a battery powered stove
which does not pyrolyze/gasify first - just lots of high velocity air and a
clever way of preheating air.
We need more comparative
data - especially on emissions from all these.
>>I still have not seen a good
design for combusting the charcoal after makingit, in the stove that makes
it. Doesn't say it can't be done - but no onehas yet reported data
showing that the efficiency was high nor the outputreadily controlled when
the charcoal was consumed in the container in whichit was
manufactured.
>Can someone please describe the best (or possibly best) stoves
specifically for charcoal?
(RWL): I have made no effort in this
direction - so I join in your query. It has not been a subject of
much discussion on this list. The best efficiency seems to have been
produced by Paul Hait of Pyromid - whose system is based on the "pillow"
type briquettes sold in the US. He has designed to get the right air flow
in from below, has used what he calls a "harmonic array" of presumaably the
right orientation and spacing of the briquettes, and uses slanted stainless (and
aluminum foil in some cases) to optimize reflection towards the hamburgers or
hotdogs (and chickens, even turkeys, etc) that is his typical use. Our
archives contains some other discussion on this subject. Paul was at the
Pune meeting and his stove was well received there. I am not aware of any
published comparative tests.
The standard charcoal cooker
around the world seems to be what is called a "jiko" - in which there is a
ceramic insert inside a metal holder. There are rules for the number and
size of the air holes in the ceramic insert - that seem to be based on
considerable experimental research. But they don's seem to last
long. In a recent paper by Dan Kammen on comparisons between traditional
jikos and the improved versions in Kenya - the improved version had higher CO
levels I think. I have no inkling why.
I also recently mentioned a
conference in the UK hosted by ESD - which had a heavy emphasis on
jikos. Mike Best there has done a lot of work on jikos. But I have seen
nothing from their work on emissions and health impacts.
>And what is/are
the major differences between those and the stoves for A. wood burning
and B. for gasifying.
(RWL): A. I have heard people say the big difference is that the
charcoal has little or now pyrolysis gas to exit from the wood. The
exiting gas keeps the oxygen away from the charcoal formed on the surface - so
initially the formed-charcoal-on-the-surface of the wood is not consumed.
Thus there are no large flames and the cookpot can be and must be very close to
the charcoal to be efficient.
for B - the big problem is that
the charcoal can only be consumed cleanly with a big increase in the primary air
(and, to achieve high efficiency, low secondary air). Thus the charcoal
consumption is from the bottom up - not near the pot. Radiative transfer
is not possible (being blocked by the upper layers of charcoal.
In sum, I think the
charcoal-consuming answer lies in either forming briquettes that are combusted
in a manner like Paul Hait's Pyromid (being careful of patent infringement -
which I know nothing about), or consuming the carbonized twigs/branches in a
device that also uses the principles of fuel placement, limited but sufficient
air flow, and reflective materials backed up by insulative materials. The
jiko only uses some of these principles (I don't think they usually separate the
charcoal chunks - which are not of uniform size and there is little or no air
control and I don't ever recall seeing reflectivity employed. I hope
others more knowledgeable about jikos will respond.
Paul Hait has emphasized on
this list that the standard big charcoal-burning "Webers" used in the US
are about as badly designed as you can imagine. Don't look there for
guidance.
<SNIP>
Paul - you ask great
questions. Regards Ron
>Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 -
7/00
Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360;
FAX: 309-438-5310E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: <A
href="http://www.ilstu.edu/~psanders"
EUDORA="AUTOURL">www.ilstu.edu/~psanders
From ronallarson at qwest.net Sat Oct 27 01:43:54 2001
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:13 2004
Subject: re "Best" stoves
Message-ID: <007301c15ea9$78b69480$87a86441@computer>
Harmon and Stovers:Harmon
asked::<SNIP>>
Are there any diagrams around of stoves with blower> arrangements? Seems
like I've seen something long, long ago, but one of> the heating stove
ideas I had was for a forced draft via a ring of air> nozzles around the
combustion area, more up later in a secondary> combustion area, and then
another small fan at the very end of a long,> complicated heat exchanger
area to pull the cold whatever out.1) This is not an area of my
expertise - but I think you will learn a lotby looking at the ZZ-stove
(used for cooking only - but probably adaptableto heaters). The turbo
stove described by Tom Red on the Alex English website may give some ideas -
but the descriptions are not all you will need.Alex has many different
reports there - and many seem to depend on Venturiand similar effects that
can assist in moving the gases around as you want(for mixing and creating
turbulence, etc.)2) I don't understand the phrase ""pull the cold
whatever out">I'm> thinking also that this would go a long way to
deal with green wood.(RWL): I don't quite see the
connection. Certainly there are ways to useexhaust gases to pre-dry
green wood, but I don't believe blowers solve anymajor green-wood combustion
problem easily in the way you are describing. Ihope others will chime
in.> Of course, that
probably also negates it's usefulness for> 3rd world, but not for
me.> (RWL): Not sure
what problem you are trying to solve - but thislist pretty much stays away
from standard modern high-cost, wood burningstoves. This is NOT to say
that electric blowers have no place in 3rdworld countries.>
>> (RWL): Paul - I suggest you look at Harmon's
"cybershamanix web> >> site -> >> this man has some
interesting background in his vita that could be> >> especially
helpful on your "stoves" documentation project.> >>
>> > And a note to Harmon: Are you familiar with the project
concerning> > the stoves documentation?>
>>> Not at all.
What's it about?> (RWL): I'll let Paul answer
the question - but I can add that personsinterested in library science,
information transfer, stoves, and third worldcountry development are not so
common on this list. No possibility ofconsulting fees, probably, but a
lot of job satisfaction from being able tothrow in a little guidance on best
tools and practices on a very smallproject that Paul has started for the
stoves community. Hope you mightfind some time to
help.Ron>>
From tombreed at home.com Sat Oct 27 11:28:10 2001
From: tombreed at home.com (Thomas Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:13 2004
Subject: No requirement of chips
In-Reply-To: <v04210106b7fcdfd86645@[209.87.249.135]>
Message-ID: <006201c15efa$679a87a0$18e5b618@lakwod3.co.home.com>
Dear Paul and All:
Wrong. We don't use blowers to get gas through the chips. The natural
draft IDD stove does that quite well for chips, coconut shells, ...
The purpose of the blower is to get "micromixing" of th ecombustion air and
the woodgas. It would be most desirable - and impossible - to cool the
woodgas to room temperature, mix it with air and have a nice "blue flame"
gas similar to propane-air combustion. However, that would greatly
complicate the stove.
Typically a diffusion flame of fuel gas in air or air in fuel gas goes
through a luminous "soot" phase before combustion is complete, as in
refinery flare
candle
match
log fire
Unfortunately, the slow mixing of air and fuel gives a very LOW intensity
flame, often many cm or meters high. Interfere with that flame and you get
incomplete combustion, black pots etc.
The purpose of the blower is to micromix the air and fuel gas to provide the
maximum "Micro mixing" geometry. This has been used in kerosene stoves for
150 years. (Go buy and study one). In particular the Argand lamp and
kerosene mantle lamps have beautiful air-gas mixing passages.
For a diagram of stove and more discusion of this, visit my woodgas site at
http://www.woodgas.com/Turbo%20Stove%20MS-PITBC%20FINAL.doc (For some
reason it is mis listed under natural convection stoves. I'll try to fix it
today....)
We continue to improve on the turbo and other stoves, so I hesitate to
publish detailed drawings.
Anyhow, once you understand the principles you can design your own even
better stove. If you don't understand the principles you won't get very
far.
Yours truly, TOM REED BEF
Dr. Thomas Reed
The Biomass Energy Foundation
1810 Smith Rd., Golden, CO 80401
303 278 0558;
tombreed@home.com; www.woodgas.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Harmon Seaver" <hseaver@cybershamanix.com>
To: "Paul S. Anderson" <psanders@ilstu.edu>
Cc: "Ron Larson" <ronallarson@qwest.net>; <stoves@crest.org>
Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 5:51 PM
Subject: Re: "best" stoves
> "Paul S. Anderson" wrote:
>
> > (RWL): You also used the term "chips". Tom uses a small blower
> > to get
> >
> >> over the large resistance that a significant thickness of chips
> >> provides.
Dear Paul and All:
Are there any diagrams around of stoves with blower
> arrangements? Seems like I've seen something long, long ago, but one of
> the heating stove ideas I had was for a forced draft via a ring of air
> nozzles around the combustion area, more up later in a secondary
> combustion area, and then another small fan at the very end of a long,
> complicated heat exchanger area to pull the cold whatever out. I'm
> thinking also that this would go a long way to deal with green wood.
> Of course, that probably also negates it's usefulness for
> 3rdWorld, but not for me.
>
> >> (RWL): Paul - I suggest you look at Harmon's "cybershamanix web
> >> site -
> >> this man has some interesting background in his vita that could be
> >> especially helpful on your "stoves" documentation project.
> >
> >
> > And a note to Harmon: Are you familiar with the project concerning
> > the stoves documentation?
> >
>
> Not at all. What's it about?
>
>
> --
> Harmon Seaver, MLIS
> CyberShamanix
> Work 920-203-9633
> Home 920-233-5820
> hseaver@cybershamanix.com
> http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html
>
>
>
> -
> Stoves List Archives and Website:
> http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
> http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
>
> Stoves List Moderators:
> Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
> Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
> Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
>
> List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
> List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
> List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>
>
> Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html
> -
> Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
> http://www.fsec.ucf.edu/bioam/
> http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
> http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml
>
> For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
> http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm
>
-
Stoves List Archives and Website:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
Stoves List Moderators:
Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
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-
Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
http://www.fsec.ucf.edu/bioam/
http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml
For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm
From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Sat Oct 27 12:13:59 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:14 2004
Subject: re "Best" stoves
In-Reply-To: <007301c15ea9$78b69480$87a86441@computer>
Message-ID: <3BDADD19.9272FF0D@cybershamanix.com>
Ron said:
> > Are there any diagrams around of stoves with blower
> > arrangements? Seems like I've seen something long, long ago, but one of
> > the heating stove ideas I had was for a forced draft via a ring of air
> > nozzles around the combustion area, more up later in a secondary
> > combustion area, and then another small fan at the very end of a long,
> > complicated heat exchanger area to pull the cold whatever out.
>
> 1) This is not an area of my expertise - but I think you will learn a lot
> by looking at the ZZ-stove (used for cooking only - but probably adaptable
> to heaters). The turbo stove described by Tom Red on the Alex English web
> site may give some ideas - but the descriptions are not all you will need.
> Alex has many different reports there - and many seem to depend on Venturi
> and similar effects that can assist in moving the gases around as you want
> (for mixing and creating turbulence, etc.)
>
Yes, actually the ZZ stove was my first inkling of this sort of
small wood stove, and I'd been thinking of buying one. Then, when
looking for info on gasification, I stumbled across the work that you
folks have been doing, and then this list. I've looked at the turbo
stove too, but the natural convection designs are by far the most
intriguing.
> 2) I don't understand the phrase ""pull the cold whatever out"
> >I'm
>
Just meaning that although these are very low emission designs, if
you increase the size, and/or start burning for long periods to heat an
area, you will want to exhaust whatever emissions there are, and,
hopefully you are extracting all the heat first so will need a small fan
to do so.
> > thinking also that this would go a long way to deal with green wood.
>
> (RWL): I don't quite see the connection. Certainly there are ways to use
> exhaust gases to pre-dry green wood, but I don't believe blowers solve any
> major green-wood combustion problem easily in the way you are describing. I
> hope others will chime in.
>
I was thinking of the old blacksmiths in the logging camps of
the northwoods who used small chunks of green birch in their forges with
a blower when they ran low on coal. Old timers I've talked to said the
green birch would burn just as hot, although not last as long, with the
forced convection.
Also I see designs for boilers like the Kuenzel
(http://www.kuenzel.de) which use forced draft and gasify logs, claiming
a totally clean burn even with green wood.
> > Of course, that probably also negates it's usefulness for
> > 3rd world, but not for me.
> >
> (RWL): Not sure what problem you are trying to solve - but this
> list pretty much stays away from standard modern high-cost, wood burning
> stoves. This is NOT to say that electric blowers have no place in 3rd
> world countries.
>
Well, I should say that my wife and I cooked and heated with
wood exclusively for about 18 years, living completely off-grid, no
electric, phone, plumbing, and 2 miles from the nearest road. We're
intent on returning to some of that lifestyle ASAP, but with a bit more
thought. So I'm interested in any and all sorts of alternative energy,
and the stove designs talked about on this list fit right in to that.
Although we had, and will have again, a large cast iron cooking range,
those aren't the best solution in Summer. We discovered years ago that
we could boil water quickly, or cook popcorn, on that cookstove just
using small dry twigs and leaving the lid off below the pot.
While that worked, it took a *lot* of twigs --- obviously these
woodgasifying stoves are a much better solution. And I too am trying to
find cheaper solutions (especially home built solutions) for all of
these.
The "standard modern high-cost, wood burning stoves" are, for the most
part, not at all well designed and extremely inefficient. The Kuenzel
and the Tarm boilers are exceptions, but they, especially the Kuenzel,
are quite expensive.
If you have heat going out the chimney, you're wasting wood. And
if you aren't gasifying the wood, you're polluting as well. And
gasifying also solves, I think, pretty much the creosote and chimney
fire problem you normally would get when trying to extract all the heat.
So, while I realize this list is primarily concerned with dealing
with 3rd World deforestation, I think the design principles you've come
up with lend themselves to solutions right here and now -- energy costs
have gone thru the roof. We are now paying $350 @ month year around for
heat & lights for our house in town here in WI (and we keep the
thermostat at 66 day, 60 night) -- something needs to be done about
energy problems right here in the US as well.
> (RWL): I'll let Paul answer the question - but I can add that persons
> interested in library science, information transfer, stoves, and third world
> country development are not so common on this list. No possibility of
> consulting fees, probably, but a lot of job satisfaction from being able to
> throw in a little guidance on best tools and practices on a very small
> project that Paul has started for the stoves community. Hope you might
> find some time to help.
>
Possibly. I'm certainly interested, don't know how much I can
actually contribute, but I'd give it a try.
--
Harmon Seaver, MLIS
CyberShamanix
Work 920-203-9633
Home 920-233-5820
hseaver@cybershamanix.com
http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html
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From Carefreeland at aol.com Sat Oct 27 12:44:30 2001
From: Carefreeland at aol.com (Carefreeland@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:14 2004
Subject: re "Best" stoves
Message-ID: <138.3ad0fc2.290c3e53@aol.com>
Ok Ron, I'm here,
I am playing phone tag with a guy in Michigan, and trying to settle a
microscopic transportation liability issue that's bugging his fancy.
Apparently he's never seen a certificate of insurance or something-I don't
know.
I'm insured to haul, from pesticides more dangerous than anthrax, to
fragile plants or lawn statues. All this on icy roads (as I do snow
removal). This is new to him too, so we have the small points to work on.
Between that, my business, and helping manage my kids.... Oh BOY.
Anyhow, you and Paul have some good points. To work on those problems I
am taking you & Tom R's idea of collecting tin cans for test tube(model)stove
experiments. My favorite is a powdered baby formula(with iron ;-) )can
measuring D5"x L 6&1/4" What # can does this correspond to? It's not very
heavy, but a good size for experiments.
For you guys just learning combustion engineering, you can play with
pieces of oak skid wood to simulate carbon firebrick building blocks, or
metal plate, and softwood twigs and sticks can burn in your wooden woodstove.
The stove eventually burns up, but you can pick up the airflow patterns, and
reconfigure it with a poker and welding gloves in the fireplace or fire ring
outside, to watch the changes. This is how I learned a lot, but never gave it
much thought. If you dampen the wood it lasts longer but figure in the
steam.
All I can ask you Ron, and Ken Boak, (who wants the same discussion on
his wastewatts list, as this is a stoves response) to do, is be patient with
me. I will comment as I find time, on what you bring up. We can discuss
blacksmith's forges quite openly to go where we all want to go. I am working
on the back burner on this skid/chip gasifing burner. More than likely,
basic plans without the bells and whistles, will go on a website someday.
The experimental changing model as now visioned
I'll described the basic design I now have in mind, as a downward tilted
fuel bed, with a vertical gas combustion chamber rising from the base. The
flame front should tend to settle at about a 60 degree from horizontal angle,
sloping back towards the fuel. As the skids are fed in the bed (high end)
whole, chips will be dumped in and around. These will gravity push the
charge in front of them into the combustion area, stopping at a threshold.
The ash can peel off and fall over the "threshold" into a bin.
The loading door will be airtight and may eventually have some sort of an
airlock. If the draft is strong enough this won't be quite so necessary.
The primary air will be fed through the floor of the vertical
chamber.(or base of the bed) The least resistance (highest airflow) being
encountered where the sloping flame front hits the bottom near the ash dump
threshold. The "grate" and "threshold" will be F 3200 heavy duty firebrick,
with the grate having slots between the cracks in the brick, probably 1/2" to
1/4" wide. I will carve them into the sides of the brick, angled wider down,
without going all the way to the ends of the brick. This way, the iron
support underneath will not be exposed to direct heat of combustion, but will
be slightly air cooled from the incoming warming air, like a torch tip.
My experience with salt spreading in wet weather tells me that slots clog
less than round holes. They are very efficient at airflow too, as no vortex
can form, or only small ones. Ever felt a draft from a leaky window? They
are hard to stop hu? (darn, I just let another patent go) The ash will also
at times drop through the grate, so it will be a separate ash pit.
I may try an air tight door opening towards the back ash pit for
cleanout of both ashes at the same time. Right now the front ash area will
be sealed with lower pressure from the draft suction. The back ash/coal
section under the grate will be warming higher pressure air. Likely to get
some small coals there too.
Now I am looking at actually wrapping the afterburner top of the
combustion chamber, back over the sloping top of the fuel supply. This
instead of the vertical configuration just discussed. This would dry and
preheat the wood, with any steam produced helping reform any tars in the
hottest top of the flame front. Many angle decisions to be made here to
balance the system. I probably will not know the critical angles till I see
the thing run.
I will be playing with 1-500gal oil tanks, and all sorts of propane
tanks. Kinda like you guys play with tin cans. They are plentiful because the
local town has gone to natural gas heat. I'll just drylay the firebrick for
now, and use fireclay with a tad of Portland cement in a wash, to act as a
temporary firecoating and caulk.
I have about fifty pieces of nursery stock where the big burner will go
so everything will happen in it's own time.
I am hoping to be able to use a portion of the gas as needed for other
projects, by diverting it before it goes to the afterburner. The afterburner
will be needed some to provide additional lift to the draft, so probably will
have a high/low adjustment. On low, gas can be drawn, and less preheated
secondary air will be introduced. This must be coordinated, maybe by some
sort of a venturi from the preheat tube exits.
I am making this intentionally complex to study the interactions of all
of the possible components now. Spinoffs will likely be much simplified for
each specific use. I am also looking at making charcoal by cutting back
primary air and forcing broken charcoal over the ash threshold with ash, or
removing it from a side door. There are advantages to each way.
Ash is easy to separate from charcoal, and if done with a washing
process, the char may be lower ash than most pyrolisis char. Much to be
studied here. Elsen, any thoughts? Do you ever intentionally wet your
briquetting paste too much, and drain off the leachate? Good fertilizer I'll
bet. You should do this before you add the binder, so it doesn't wash out
too.
Oh yea, a VERY important part of this design, is a baffle above the
primary combustion area, to force hot escaping gas and flame back against the
sloping hot coaling surface. By doing this, and maybe vortexing it, the tars
should have maximum chance to crack as in your idd systems.
What I did to come up with this (I like to teach my thought process as
well as my ideas) is look at each function separately, and ask what
orientation to gravity would work best. By meeting the conflicting needs of
each stage with a compromise, I have, at least in theory, optimized their
mutual function.
I have too many heat exchanger ideas to experiment with to mention in
this letter. The heat goes to the greenhouse in any case. It could just as
easily go to a building or factory that needs steam.
A steam boiler should be made of tubes in the afterburner. I don't like
tank boilers because when they accidentally go dry or have a weakness, they
explode with much force. If a cluster of tubes ruptures, it generally splits
the side of one small tube with less shrapnel, and can be contained in the
firebox with the steam force directed out the chimney.
A note about patents on woodstoves
Wish I had more time to play with the models. For anyone wanting to
experiment with these ideas, my consulting charge is for you to let all
stovers know your results on your basic design. I consider this a charcoal
and gas making devise, so I am submiting it non-patented. This to encourage
more refined fuel supply, with the money going to the biomass fuel providers,
as it should.
Someday, after I get the basic thing up and running, I may patent some
add-on's. That is if you guys don't beat me to it. (that is a challenge) Just
let me know to save redundant work and patent searching. I have no interest
in taking someone's patent, but if it's good enough, I just might pay for it
someday. Tit for tat. (visa versa)
Please, just don't patent every little angle that would be of great
benefit to the whole basic project, that would upset me. I feel that this is
a community project. Patent real, working, innovative, original add- on's
and spinnoffs, that save people money on fuel, pay for themselves, and
increase the market for BIOMASS FUELS.
Time to go to work, where are all the gasification list guys? Sleeping?
Good luck stovers, and colliers,
Daniel Dimiduk
Shangri-La Research and Development Co.
Dayton, Ohio, USA
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From ronallarson at qwest.net Sat Oct 27 17:16:11 2001
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:14 2004
Subject: re "Best" stoves
In-Reply-To: <007301c15ea9$78b69480$87a86441@computer>
Message-ID: <017901c15f2c$b94fd0a0$72f66641@computer>
Harmon said today:
<snip>
> Yes, actually the ZZ stove was my first inkling of this sort of
> small wood stove, and I'd been thinking of buying one. Then, when
> looking for info on gasification, I stumbled across the work that you
> folks have been doing, and then this list. I've looked at the turbo
> stove too, but the natural convection designs are by far the most
> intriguing.
(RWL): We look forward to hearing what you learn.
<SNIP>
> hopefully you are extracting all the heat first so will need a small fan
> to do so.
(RWL): I understand your point - it would be interesting to hear the
economics of adding a fan (in developing countries, perhaps using a PV
system) to reduce the fuel purchases, by having a better heat exchanger. I
have seen some commercial product literature on using a thermoelectric
system to drive the external heat-trasnfer fan from the flue energy source -
with probably about the same economics as PV (but not needed where grid tie
is possible).
<snip>
> I was thinking of the old blacksmiths in the logging camps of
> the northwoods who used small chunks of green birch in their forges with
> a blower when they ran low on coal. Old timers I've talked to said the
> green birch would burn just as hot, although not last as long, with the
> forced convection.
(RWL): Thanks. I'd llike to hear more about these blacksmith
operations. Do you think they also worked with charcoal? I can certainly
see the value of more air when you have a green wood (incineration)
operation. But it still seems better to use drier wood.
> Also I see designs for boilers like the Kuenzel
> (http://www.kuenzel.de) which use forced draft and gasify logs, claiming
> a totally clean burn even with green wood.
>
(RWL): That was an interesting site. It appears to me that their
design allows drying before the pyrolysis phase (with a gravity feed).
They use a "ceramic" floor rather than a metal grate - presumably because of
greater lifetime and freedom from slagging problems ?). We had a report
long ago from John Rouse of his having developed a locally made grate out of
fired ceramic "rods" - but that it didn't go over well because it didn't
look modern enough - probably the exact reverse consumer reaction to this
design.
I also would like to hear more on the Kuenzel design use of two
blowers - one each for the primary and secondary air (and one model creating
a vacuum - rather than a poitive pressure difference). Tom Reed uses a
series of valves to balance the two flows. Here the primary blower speed
has a feedback to control power level and the secondary blower speed is
varied to maintain an output oxygen level (for pollutant control - and it
sounded like they were striving for 13% oxygen).
>
<SNIP>
>
> Well, I should say that my wife and I cooked and heated with
<snip>
> The "standard modern high-cost, wood burning stoves" are, for the most
> part, not at all well designed and extremely inefficient. The Kuenzel
> and the Tarm boilers are exceptions, but they, especially the Kuenzel,
> are quite expensive.
> If you have heat going out the chimney, you're wasting wood. And
> if you aren't gasifying the wood, you're polluting as well. And
> gasifying also solves, I think, pretty much the creosote and chimney
> fire problem you normally would get when trying to extract all the heat.
>
(RWL): Thanks for the added background. I thnk you are on the
right list, and we will continue to want to hear how your development
progresses. It would seem that the creosote problem should be much less -
but we have had no mention of that issue before - and I don't think there
has been enough experimental work along these lines to guarantee anything.
On this list 5 + years ago, Tom Duke reported on loading up a tall
(maybe 1 or more meters - Tom?) stove pipe with "sticks?" and heating a
barn for many ( Tom?) hours.. With a tall stove pipe chimney above the
secondary air inlet, you can develop a lot of draft (and simultaneously do a
lot of room heating) to provide the necessary draft for the primary air to
overcome the resistance of the tall load of sticks. This whole
space-heating area needs more work - but I am also glad you are thinking
wood cooking in the US - you will possibly be the only one on this list
doing so.
<snip>
> > project that Paul has started for the stoves community. Hope you might
> > find some time to help.
> >
>
> Possibly. I'm certainly interested, don't know how much I can
> actually contribute, but I'd give it a try.
(RWL): Great. I think the place to help is in suggesting modern
low-cost (or better, free) archive-based cataloging tools for finding items
in our archives. There is a search technique for the "bioenergy" list - but
not yet for "stoves". We have some students in India ready to help do some
of the reading and cataloging - and maybe you could suggest some library
science tricks to simplify their work and make the product more useful. Can
one search on anything - or do we need a good list of key words? How do we
follow threads when subject lines are not very helpful? How do we get rid
of material that is of limited or negative use? How do we get rid of
totally extraneous material at the end of useful messages - so that users
don't have to plow through such?
Thanks again. Ron
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From Carefreeland at aol.com Sun Oct 28 06:23:36 2001
From: Carefreeland at aol.com (Carefreeland@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:14 2004
Subject: re "Best" stoves (for forging)
Message-ID: <16d.305d23e.290d446a@aol.com>
Ron,
I'd like to comment here on the use of green wood for blacksmiths forges.
I know that blacksmiths don't use coal straight. They put it right beside
the coke fire and slowly cook it into coke. Then they use it by slowly
nudging it closer to the wind. The volatiles are burned off as the draft
from the coke fire exhaust draws in a mix of coal smoke and air. This flame
is used quite to their advantage for specific things where the flame is
desirable.
My best guess is that they are using green wood because it is birch and
would burn up if the same process was used for charcoal making. The moisture
controls the pyrolisis. If they used oak (which may not be available that far
north) even dry, it likes to convert to charcoal before burning, due to the
high carbon to hydrogen ratio.
Birch may be chosen for other reasons like low ash content, but I don't
know.
I know a river birch tree in need of some pruning under my care, and I will
someday look into this.
I hear a lot of talk about how those old-timers "didn't know all that
much about chemistry" and so fourth. One thing I know absolutely from my
studying the historical record of old iron makers. They knew almost
everything there was to know about RESULTS of chemistry. This was their
life. Maybe in many cases they knew more than we still do, as they had
thousands of years to perfect their trade. Trial and error does not make
math, spelling, or errors based on political bias.
In Russia, as recently as WW2, the top iron maker's work was not covered
by liability insurance. They had a much simpler system. If an iron makers
work failed catastrophically, they were shot or hanged. Many were shot or
hanged by Stalin for their politics or religion. Boy we've got it easy
today.
On the other hand, just a few years before that, they tested swords by
having the king cut off a slaves head. The test was how little force was
required. Sometimes it didn't work the first swing, so the iron maker was
put to death on the spot with the slave, by his own sword, with only one
swing. It was considered barbaric to let someone bleed slowly to death.
Don't EVER underestimate the knowledge passed father to son, and master
to apprentice--- for three thousand years!
Daniel Dimiduk, son of Marie Kovalyak (means blacksmith in
Slovak)
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From Carefreeland at aol.com Sun Oct 28 06:57:15 2001
From: Carefreeland at aol.com (Carefreeland@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:14 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Re: re "Best" stoves
Message-ID: <60.15e3dac1.290d4c84@aol.com>
Mike,
I was afraid some one would ask about a drawing. The best one I have is
in my head, but I have worked out some details on my daughters "magna doodle
pad" which is similar to an etch a sketch but with a pen. At some point, I
will take time and draw one up, but why don't we talk about some concepts
first, so I have to draw to visualize. I promise I will put the next drawing
on paper and send it to stoves(if I can figure out how). Thanks for the
intrest,
Daniel Dimiduk
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From ronallarson at qwest.net Sun Oct 28 09:57:17 2001
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:14 2004
Subject: re "Best" stoves
In-Reply-To: <138.3ad0fc2.290c3e53@aol.com>
Message-ID: <000d01c15fc1$18623260$8bf76641@computer>
----- Original Message -----
From: <Carefreeland@aol.com>
To: <ronallarson@qwest.net>; <stoves@crest.org>;
<kenboak@stirlingservice.freeserve.co.uk>; <gasification@crest.org>
Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2001 10:44 AM
Subject: Re: re "Best" stoves
Stovers: This is responding to a message today from Dan Diminuk
Dan said:
<SNIP>
>My favorite is a powdered baby formula(with iron ;-) )can
> measuring D5"x L 6&1/4" What # can does this correspond to? It's not very
> heavy, but a good size for experiments.
(RWL): Sorry - can't help. I have found that pizza restaurants are
throwing away many big cans every day of different sizes. Hope someone else
knows the nomenclature for cans.
> For you guys just learning combustion engineering, you can play with
> pieces of oak skid wood to simulate carbon firebrick building blocks, or
> metal plate, and softwood twigs and sticks can burn in your wooden
woodstove.
> The stove eventually burns up, but you can pick up the airflow patterns,
and
> reconfigure it with a poker and welding gloves in the fireplace or fire
ring
> outside, to watch the changes. This is how I learned a lot, but never gave
it
> much thought. If you dampen the wood it lasts longer but figure in the
> steam.
(RWL): This is very clever - I like it, and have never heard of
replacing metals with wood for stove testing before.
> All I can ask you Ron, and Ken Boak, (who wants the same discussion on
> his wastewatts list, as this is a stoves response) to do, is be patient
with
> me. I will comment as I find time, on what you bring up. We can discuss
> blacksmith's forges quite openly to go where we all want to go. I am
working
> on the back burner on this skid/chip gasifing burner. More than likely,
> basic plans without the bells and whistles, will go on a website someday.
(RWL): For others - Dan and I have had many off-list discussions on the
possible application of charcoal-making ideas in the general area of
metal-working. Dan seems to be making good progress that could eventually
help in developing countries. His reference to Dan Boak is:
http://www.geocities.com/kenboak/wastewatts.html
which contains links to many other stoves areas and other resources.
Boak provides a link to "stoves".
> The experimental changing model as now visioned
> I'll described the basic design I now have in mind, as a downward
tilted
> fuel bed, with a vertical gas combustion chamber rising from the base.
The
> flame front should tend to settle at about a 60 degree from horizontal
angle,
> sloping back towards the fuel. As the skids are fed in the bed (high end)
(rwl): Dan - sorry, but I haven't got the picture yet, so I can't really
comment. There is no mention here of primary and secondary entry points.
You seem to be talking at times about charcoal-making but you seem to have
bottom-lighting but an up-draft design. Have I got this right? This is not
likely to lead to much charcoal (if that was your intent). In Harmon
Seaver's note today he described a boiler by Kuenzel - that has some of what
you are looking for, I believe. There is some down-draft for the primary
air. - but with blowers.
I have just ordered by inter-library loan a year-2000 book called
"Wood-Fired Ceramics; Contemporary Practices" by Minogue and Sanderson -
that might offer some useful ideas - based on centuries of large-scale
wood-burning practice (I don't think there is any charcoaling aspects to
this industry.) The figures looked good but I haven't read it yet. Anyone
know anything about this book? (I think all is natural convection - with
burn times of several days or even a week.)
<SNIP>
> I may try an air tight door opening towards the back ash pit for
> cleanout of both ashes at the same time. Right now the front ash area
will
> be sealed with lower pressure from the draft suction. The back ash/coal
> section under the grate will be warming higher pressure air. Likely to
get
> some small coals there too.
(RWL): If this is all natural convection, I don't think you need to
worry about door seals (at least not to prevent gas escape back out. I
haven't understood your use of two ash sections.
<SNIP>
> I probably will not know the critical angles till I see
> the thing run.
(RWL): Sounds like something to test in small scale first?
Best of luck. Ron
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From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Sun Oct 28 10:39:15 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:14 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Re: re "Best" stoves (for forging)
In-Reply-To: <16d.305d23e.290d446a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3BDC267E.D8CFE3E9@cybershamanix.com>
Carefreeland@aol.com wrote:
> My best guess is that they are using green wood because it is birch and
> would burn up if the same process was used for charcoal making. The moisture
> controls the pyrolisis. If they used oak (which may not be available that far
> north) even dry, it likes to convert to charcoal before burning, due to the
> high carbon to hydrogen ratio.
> Birch may be chosen for other reasons like low ash content, but I don't
> know.
You're right, there was no oak available to them, the only real hardwoods
were birch and aspen (other than the small moose maples and other shrub trees).
Birch has something extra that other hardwoods lack -- people call it an "oil"
but I'm not at all sure of the chemistry of it. At any rate, green birch
definitely burns far better than green aspen, I can testify to that. Most people
up north won't bother to cut aspen for firewood unless they can't get birch
(seldom the case) or the aspen is just easier to get and haul. It sure doesn't
last as long in the stove, or burn as hot, dry or green.
You can get an idea of how volatile the birch "oil" is by burning paper
birch bark. And birch bark, of course, makes excellent firestarter.
--
Harmon Seaver, MLIS
CyberShamanix
Work 920-203-9633
Home 920-233-5820
hseaver@cybershamanix.com
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From psanders at ilstu.edu Sun Oct 28 11:17:02 2001
From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:14 2004
Subject: Stoves database project
In-Reply-To: <v04210106b7fcdfd86645@[209.87.249.135]>
Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20011028100925.016f0c60@mail.ilstu.edu>
Priya, Harmon, Nick, (and all)
Can you tell us of any progress on the making of the database of stoves
information from the messages of the list serve? (Priya is supervising
the work to be done by post-graduate students in India.)
Nick will NOT be traveling to India in November (will probably go in
January 2002). So we need to come up with another way to get the money to
you if you need it before January. What are your
suggestions? (Nick: Do you have personal contacts in Pune - Bombay
area that could assist us with this until you get there?)
Ron Larson suggested that Harmon's experience with computer issues might be
a useful addition to our efforts. His resume is available via the link
below. (quite impressive):
>--
>Harmon Seaver, MLIS
>CyberShamanix
>Work 920-203-9633
>Home 920-233-5820
>hseaver@cybershamanix.com
>http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html
Looking forward to comments.
Perhaps Alex English could tell us what plans he has for his web-site, and
if and how additional information-pictures-links could be presented at that
site.
Sincerely,
Paul
Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders
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From andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com Sun Oct 28 17:05:48 2001
From: andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com (AJH)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:14 2004
Subject: No requirement of chips
In-Reply-To: <v04210106b7fcdfd86645@[209.87.249.135]>
Message-ID: <hprottgltk9ualqj6gtvfrim11q3m350fa@4ax.com>
On Sat, 27 Oct 2001 09:16:50 -0600, "Thomas Reed" <tombreed@home.com>
wrote:
>The purpose of the blower is to get "micromixing" of th ecombustion air and
>the woodgas. It would be most desirable - and impossible - to cool the
>woodgas to room temperature, mix it with air and have a nice "blue flame"
>gas similar to propane-air combustion. However, that would greatly
>complicate the stove.
Why should it be necessary to cool the gas before mixing, to prevent
spontaneous combustion? I saw an earlier post to the list that
suggested preheating primary air for an idd stove, this can quite
easily turn the idd into an updraught burner. I have also fed
commercial oxygen as primary gas, this too rapidly produces a flash
over to the bottom of the fire.
>
>Typically a diffusion flame of fuel gas in air or air in fuel gas goes
>through a luminous "soot" phase before combustion is complete, as in
>
>refinery flare
>candle
>match
>log fire
>
>Unfortunately, the slow mixing of air and fuel gives a very LOW intensity
>flame, often many cm or meters high. Interfere with that flame and you get
>incomplete combustion, black pots etc.
>
Yes this is the dilemma of allowing complete combustion without
artificial turbulence, now your mention of "refinery flare" is
interesting, I had earlier had a correspondence in arranging a meeting
with Ronal which I have pasted below, refinery flares also use coanda
burners.
>The purpose of the blower is to micromix the air and fuel gas to provide the
>maximum "Micro mixing" geometry. This has been used in kerosene stoves for
>150 years. (Go buy and study one). In particular the Argand lamp and
>kerosene mantle lamps have beautiful air-gas mixing passages.
Yes this came up in an earlier thread.
To: Ron Larson <ronallarson@qwest.net>
Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2001 3:17 PM
Subject: Re: Air!! My stove needs air!!
On Mon, 1 Oct 2001 17:56:20 -0600, you wrote:
>On your just prior message to the list on supplying air - please keep it
up.
>I think there is a lot to be gained by external forcing - maybe even
>electrically. But we need to explore more options.
I read the list but seldom comment now. I remember a long time ago I
told you I thought natural draught was a difficult route to travel.
The major reason for pursuing this is that your "clients" are so poor,
in fact so poor that I have never come to grasp the problem properly.
Since my very first experiments after I read "stoves list" I felt
control was needed to have a clean burn and, in my case, modify the
charcoal produced. I had not conceived how visibly cleanly I could
flare the charcoal making before I tried the idd stove. Once I had
done it I sat down to see what was happening.
The first requisite was dryness, idd does not readily occur with the
wood we were making charcoal from. The steam dryer was the quickest,
most compact and cheapest way of getting dry wood. This probably only
got us to "denver dry" anyway. yield experiments soon made me realise
idd burn inevitably cost us some carbon yield.
In playing with a heat source for the drier I made a turbulent burner,
this works well and if I have time I will rig it up for you. However
it made me think back to David Beedie's early advice that for clean
burning you need Turbulence, Temperature and Time.
I saw that I was achieving my clean burn but at the expense of using a
powered fan. I was maintaining temperature by not taking heat out of
the system before combustion was complete.
Things that have interested me are
1) the use of non woody biomass in a prilled or pelletted form, this
to meter in fuel as and when needed (even by a crude clockwork device)
2) turbulent air flow. To my mind this needs to be a secondary airflow
which itself entrains the primary air. This could be achieved by
a: clockwork, after all we probably only need 3 watts
b: a mechanical turbine, which I have thought too expensive
c: an aspirator, eductor or ejector using steam, this will have an
energy cost which I cannot calculate. If used on primary air it could
well consume charcoal in the idd stove but this would require a
substantial flaming pyrolysis zone and the steam would have to be
injected directly into it. Being endo thermic it would work to cool
the zone.
d: the same using pyrolysis products.
What is never discussed in the list about idd stoves is the way they
make a batch loaded device act like a continuously fed device and
hence they do not suffer the difficulties in other batch fed devices
of the fuel load reaching pyrolysis temperature and then "running
away" and subsequently the residual char burning away with poor CO
emissions.
I have looked at
1 venturi effect as used in a carburetor
2 ejector as used in primus or gas burner
3 coanda effect
I can show you a version of d:+3 that a friend made for use with
paraffin but which may work with sawdust.
AJH
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From andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com Sun Oct 28 17:06:32 2001
From: andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com (AJH)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:14 2004
Subject: Heating Stoves
In-Reply-To: <v04210106b7fcdfd86645@[209.87.249.135]>
Message-ID: <nctottc9d42dad75lsq7ahm3ricdbd90n8@4ax.com>
On Fri, 26 Oct 2001 10:19:03 -0600, "Ron Larson"
<ronallarson@qwest.net> wrote:
>
>>
>> How well could they be made to work with green, or semi-green wood
>> chips?
>>
> (RWL) to Harmon. I think all (?) of us working with charcoal-making
>stoves (CMS) would caution against any but the dryest woods. It may even be
>that in humid parts of the world that "dry" wood is not sufficiently dry.
>This could be a major difficulty that I don't believe has been adequately
>explored in actual practice. (Tom Reed reported on some tests maybe a year
>ago.) If such stoves were in wide use in humid locations, I guess that the
>next day's fuel would be being dried in racks with the combustion gases or
>with heat radiated radially from the stove itself. Whether this is a major
>drawback for the CMS remains to be seen.
Ronal I guess you and I will have to disagree on this terminology,
Tom's IDD is preferable to me because it is descriptive, whilst
charcoal may be a byproduct of the idd stove it is not the best way of
yielding charcoal. Here we need to be a bit careful about what we are
calling charcoal, as a charcoal producer I want to maximise my weight
of charcoal from a given weight. There are a number of ways of doing
this, one is to keep the temperature low, this gives a product that
still contains a high amount of volatile material but has lost its
strength and woody character, it is high volatiles charcoal. I have
achieved yield of 45% of dry weight, even though the maximum fixed
carbon is only 35%. The idd stove at best achieves 25%, still highish
volatile charcoal, hence whilst it is better than a crude clamp of wet
wood it is not the route to producing charcoal, please see my further
post on coal burning about reuse of char.
The other means to increasing yield of *carbon* in pyrolysis is
reported in Mike Antal's work where he appears to crack pyrolysis
products back to soot which remains in the char matrix due to the
patented process.
>.
> (RWL): I think the emphasis on a CMS should be on the "fact" (still
>needs more proof) that this is the cleanest-burning stove around. In my new
>view, the charcoal co-product is valuable where people want and are using
>charcoal for whatever reason - but charcoal is now not the reason for
>further development. If you have no use for charcoal - there are probably
>better (not necessarily cleaner) ways to do your cooking or heating. I
>still have not seen a good design for combusting the charcoal after making
>it, in the stove that makes it. Doesn't say it can't be done - but no one
>has yet reported data showing that the efficiency was high nor the output
>readily controlled when the charcoal was consumed in the container in which
>it was manufactured.
Again I think the charcoal can be recycled into an idd burn, it leads
to a dilution of the offgas cv but I hope this is not a problem in
terms of pollutants. As I spouted off before I think Alex demonstrated
the offgas from the idd pyrolysis front is fairly constant, I believe
as long as the fuel is homogeneous that inclusion of char as an
admixture to the charge will maintain constant conditions. Worse case
is that the char must be *quickly* washed free of ash and dried before
reuse.
> (RWL) "Last" point - chips (and lots of other small waste material)
>might still be possible with a natural-draft CMS if configured in the
>"holey" briquette form. Not enough work reported yet on this combination.
I have burned all sorts of chipped dry garden waste in idd mode and
natural draught once the initial burn has been initiated with a fan.
As Ronal has noted this can be scaled up but a diffuse flame becomes
very difficult to sustain in larger (up to 25cms) diameters. This is
where the various mixers should have an effect, my tallest idd stove
is about 2m high.
AJH
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From andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com Sun Oct 28 17:07:01 2001
From: andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com (AJH)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:14 2004
Subject: idd coal burning
Message-ID: <dmuott8boirhjohekqhs5gjl8v4d9mvka6@4ax.com>
As a follow up on the thread on coal burning a few of my thoughts for
comment from an earlier e-mail conversation.
From: AJH <andrew.heggie@dtn.ntl.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 23:44:36 +0100
I had another look at idd burning of coal, this time I used anthracite
grains. This resulted in a clean burn and the purple flame pointed to
CO being produced with few volatiles. I would say primary air was
higher than when using biomass, also I am fairly certain that using a
diffuse flare resulted in poor combustion of CO. What it demonstrates
is that the pyrolysis front moves much slower, is hotter and wider, in
fact wide enough to generate enough CO from CO2 to maintain a flare
(which I assume needs at least 2MJ/kg).
It also establishes a path to cleanly combust the housecoal (which
appears to be a high sulpur black bitumous coal). There
remains the problem of sulphur and other noxious compounds in the
coal. Is it possible to pass the offgas through an alkaline stone
filter to retain the sulphur as a sulphate prior to secondary
combustion?
If we do use this method to more completely combust coal then we are
probably not going to be able to use natural draught. As any CO2-CO
reduction reaction causes a very hot zone which will lose heat if not
well insulated then we have the opportunity to cool it with steam and
increase the cv of offgas with hydrogen. Now could our steam ejector
use little enough steam that it would contribute to this reaction?
Plainly the primary air induced would have to be preheated such that
the temperature of the steam plus primary air was above the dew point
of the mixture. I suspect that the mass ratio of the ejector would
point to the head of steam being at a dangerously high level.
I need to re establish the various concepts that have been discussed
here and order them in my thinking. The www.cookstove.net link
provided by K.Prasad answers a lot of questions and when I finish
reading this and the paper provided by Robert Bailis I may be a bit
wiser.
We are considering better cooking for those groups that currently cook
in a way that endangers their health AND/OR depletes local resources.
This problem is best overcome by supplying them with affordable grid
gas for hobs and electricity for ovens. Now we all know that is not
going to happen because a small proportion of the population has
collared most of the capital, and thence is able to purchase most of
the resources such that the cost is driven up out of the reach of the
remainder, I am a beneficiary of that system. There is no mechanism in
humanity to change this.
So we need to break the existing uses down into their various parts
and rank or weight them to decide what benefits there are in changing
each part.
We have to consider the culture, there is high inertia to overcome,
local taboos prevent change.
What is cooking, what changes occur in the food. For instance we know
that many meals that are constantly simmered for long periods actually
need no heat input, they can be placed in a haybox to continue
cooking. Cooking is more like firing ceramics than space heating. Once
a temperature is reached little energy transfer takes place, time is
necessary for the heat to bring a food particle to the required
temperature via conduction past already cooked particles. Just as in
our western cooking the common practice is to stuff the turkey and
then cook it, it is plainly faster, and thus less energy using, to
cook the bird whilst hollow and the stuffing separately. Does a
difference in taste or texture justify the extra cooking heat and
time? We cook to kill common infectious material, 70C is enough for
most, boiling fails to disable a prion or a toxin like botulism.
The stove itself can be split into elements:
The fuel, are there alternatives? A workmate has recently returned
from a short stint in Ghana, he reports women trekking into the forest
for fuel wood whilst winnowings from the millet were blown away on the
wind. Could we pelletise this and make a stove in which fuel and air
are metered without the cook constantly feeding in twigs. Could we
dice root fuels into a pellet prior to sun drying them? Is their a use
for the (starchy?) fluid seeping away from the root pulp in bags
weighted by stones he saw (manioc?), I know starch makes a good binder
for charcoal briquettes, especially if a coating of pva is used to
seal the surface. There are a number of "waste" chemicals I have
played with here for making briquettes/pellets.
The combustion, can it be cleaner, more efficient or healthier? If as
appears the case with coal the answer is no then we are forced to
enclose the combustion and vent the products, which leads us to:
What limits the heat transfer, is it the hob plate (plancha?), the
boundary layer of air, the pot chilling the flame. Dean asked about
peak efficiency, what are the limits, we know that using natural gas
we can expect 85% efficiency heating from ambient to 95C, with a stove
the first obvious difference is the limited heat exchange surface,
Ronal and I discussed military field cookers with pots fitted to the
flue passage and blanking plates when no pots were used. We can
envisage a multi level flue path with pots forming baffles to force
gases in a helical path past them, increasing the time any given mass
of flue gas passes the pot. could we ever reduce excess air to the 5%
level that produces clean combustion with natural gas, I think not but
we could get closer than even the "improved" stoves discussed here.
Mostly I am confused but I think I can see some techniques that could
be discussed, given time.
AJH
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From andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com Sun Oct 28 17:07:29 2001
From: andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com (AJH)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:14 2004
Subject: Maximum possible efficiency
In-Reply-To: <2CB090FC30192549B04101547F33E93F720E41@exegrnnts005.seattleu.edu>
Message-ID: <novottsbbn8lb9uksgih6edht3m4g7db23@4ax.com>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Cousins, Ananda <ACousins@seattleu.edu>
>To: 'Dean Still' <dstill@epud.net>; Ron Larson <ronallarson@qwest.net>;
><stoves@crest.org>
>Sent: Friday, October 12, 2001 5:28 PM
>Subject: RE: Maximum possible efficiency
>
>
>> Hello all,
>>
>> Here are some quick estimates for maximum possible stove efficiency as a
>> function of two parameters: percentage of theoretical air required for
>> combustion (100% means exactly the amount required to completely burn all
>> the fuel) and air exit temperature from the stove active area (which may
>be
>> somewhat higher than the chimney exit temperature if heat is significant
>> heat is lost through the chimney walls).
>>
>> Stove efficiency
>>
>>
>> % THEORETICAL AIR
>> AIR EXIT |
>> TEMP(C) | 100 120 140 160 180 200
>> ----------------------------------------------
>> 100 | 95 94 93 92 91 90
>> 150 | 92 90 89 87 85 84
>> 200 | 89 86 84 82 80 77
>> 250 | 85 82 80 77 74 71
>> 300 | 82 79 75 71 68 64
>> 350 | 79 75 70 66 62 58
>> 400 | 76 71 66 61 56 51
>> 450 | 72 67 61 56 50 45
>> 500 | 69 63 57 51 44 38
>>
>> The analysis is based only on conservation of energy. I assume complete
>> combustion, and the following constants taken from Sharma (ref. below):
>>
>> 6.5 kg of air required for complete stoichiometric combustion of 1 kg wood
>> 10,000 kJ/kg lower heating value for reasonably dry wood
Isn't this a pessimistically low figure for dry wood, how would the
table look with 15-18MJ/kg?
AJH
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From andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com Sun Oct 28 17:12:10 2001
From: andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com (AJH)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:14 2004
Subject: High temp Stove paint
In-Reply-To: <004201c14bf5$aaf8fe40$ebe80fc4@am29>
Message-ID: <gd0pttocrjvmd6dt0hshrbd83elke1m4mh@4ax.com>
On Wed, 3 Oct 2001 11:29:02 +0200, "New Dawn Engineering / ATEX"
<crispin@newdawn.sz> wrote:
>There is a silicone paint available in South Africa which we have been using
>for some time. It was available in a few colours but recently white remains
>the only choice. It is marketed by two companies under slightly different
>names like HRA 540 which means simply heat resistant paint good to 540
>degrees C.
Can anyone supply other references for this paint, I have done a quick
search but it does not appear to be available in UK.
AJH
-
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From andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com Sun Oct 28 17:23:50 2001
From: andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com (AJH)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:14 2004
Subject: re "Best" stoves
In-Reply-To: <007301c15ea9$78b69480$87a86441@computer>
Message-ID: <t41ptt0nk5m13tt3rpadluheqq25k079lg@4ax.com>
On Sat, 27 Oct 2001 15:17:01 -0600, "Ron Larson"
<ronallarson@qwest.net> wrote:
>
> I also would like to hear more on the Kuenzel design use of two
>blowers - one each for the primary and secondary air (and one model creating
>a vacuum - rather than a poitive pressure difference). Tom Reed uses a
>series of valves to balance the two flows. Here the primary blower speed
>has a feedback to control power level and the secondary blower speed is
>varied to maintain an output oxygen level (for pollutant control - and it
>sounded like they were striving for 13% oxygen).
This raises a couple of points, the first is this design looks like it
is running about 200% excess air, we should do better then this. Even
so Ananda's excellent table show that with a cook pot reducing exit
temperature to 120C then combustion efficiency can reach up to 80%. It
may be that dilution air is used to safeguard components or just a
cost of burning green wood. Stepping back to idd stoves, I feel using
the secondary air to induce the small primary requirement and achieve
a more turbulent secondary burn means we could achieve a shorter flame
and hence shallower secondary burner, this has practical benefits in
heat loss from the sides and stability.
> How do we get rid of
>totally extraneous material at the end of useful messages - so that users
>don't have to plow through such?
Sit a bot at Crest that:
1) Deletes all html
2) Deletes all quoted text in the message below a reply
3) Bounces all mail produced by Outlook :-)
4) Appends list administrivia after a valid sig separator
5) Cuts crossposts and ccs by including a valid reply to header
AJH
-
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From elk at wananchi.com Mon Oct 29 03:00:36 2001
From: elk at wananchi.com (elk)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:14 2004
Subject: Water heating
Message-ID: <013b01c16050$05e61720$1e41083e@default>
On the issue of efficiency:
Several tourist lodges here in Kenya are
running large diesel generators (100 - 200 KVA) to produce
electricity. A great deal of this power is used for water heating
via electric immersion heaters.
This may a good example of costly
inefficiency. Can anyone calculate the energy from the calorific content of the
diesel oil through to the final energy of the hot water? I believe that the
efficiency of electric immersion heaters is pretty high- in the region of 75%.
What is the efficiency of a large diesel generator?
If a good sustainably-sourced biomass fuel such as
an agri-industrial waste briquette can be used to directly heat water via
efficient heaters (boilers), it is possible that a cost savings can be made
through a reduction in fossil-fuel use. The cost of diesel oil delivered to
remote areas in Kenya can reach as high as USD $0.75 per liter.
Obviously, the cost of transporting a briquetted
fuel would have to be considered, but agri-industrial waste materials can be
found close to some of Kenya's game reserves.
rgds;
elk
--------------------------Elsen L.
Karstadelk@wananchi.com<A
href="http://www.chardust.com">www.chardust.comNairobi
Kenya
From JEFF.FORSSELL at ssvh.se Mon Oct 29 04:18:48 2001
From: JEFF.FORSSELL at ssvh.se (Jeff Forssell)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:14 2004
Subject: SV: Water heating
Message-ID: <A11397FBE741D411B2E700D0B74770E96C5825@exchange.ssvh.se>
I saw many examples of electric waterheaters i Tanzania that were totally
without insulation - sometimes even in accomodations with air-conditioners
whose load increases because of spill heat from hot water tank! (Would be
good if refrigerators and AC units could be connected to preheat water going
to a water heater - which would also increase eff of heat pump)
The efficiency of en electric immersion heater (in transferring electric
energy which reaches it to the water as heat) is practically 100%. But
lacking insulation can make them very inefficient but the % will depend on
ambient temp, chosen water temp, tank size, liter/day usage etc.
Considering the availabilty of solar heat its really a terrible shame
(noise, cost, CO2, repair needs for generation)
If generators are used for lighting, refrigeration etc which are good for
Electricity, the engine driving it should have its cooling system connected
to a hotwatertank so the 60%-80% of the energy which is normally lost in
generation. If the engine can be run on producer gas, than we're really
getting to something. ( I have seen divergent views on pollution potential
from producer engines- some saying lower that ordinary engines other saying
higher. I wonder if it could be connected to high (mech) efficiency need the
high compression engine which creates more NOx. If a lower compression
engine is used and the greater spill heat used - then the eff. could be the
same while decreasing NOx emissions)
********
Jeff Forssell (double s)
Swedish National Institute for Distance Education (SSVH)
Box 3024
S-871 03 HÄRNÖSAND /Sweden
+46(0)611-55 79 48 (Work) +46(0)611-55 79 80 (Fax Work)
+46(0)611-22 1 44 (Home) (070- 35 80 306 mobil)
Gamla Karlebyvägen 14 / 871 33 Härnösand
e-mail: every workday: jf@ssvh.se (travel, visiting:
jeff_forssell@hotmail.com)
Personal homepage: http://www.torget.se/users/i/iluhya/index.htm
My village technology page: http://home.bip.net/jeff.forssell
ICQ #: 55800587
> ----------
> Från: elk[SMTP:elk@wananchi.com]
> Skickat: den 29 oktober 2001 08:35
> Till: stoves@crest.org
> Angående: Water heating
>
> On the issue of efficiency:
>
> Several tourist lodges here in Kenya are running large diesel generators
> (100 - 200 KVA) to produce electricity. A great deal of this power is
> used for water heating via electric immersion heaters.
>
> This may a good example of costly inefficiency. Can anyone calculate the
> energy from the calorific content of the diesel oil through to the final
> energy of the hot water? I believe that the efficiency of electric
> immersion heaters is pretty high- in the region of 75%. What is the
> efficiency of a large diesel generator?
>
> If a good sustainably-sourced biomass fuel such as an agri-industrial
> waste briquette can be used to directly heat water via efficient heaters
> (boilers), it is possible that a cost savings can be made through a
> reduction in fossil-fuel use. The cost of diesel oil delivered to remote
> areas in Kenya can reach as high as USD $0.75 per liter.
>
> Obviously, the cost of transporting a briquetted fuel would have to be
> considered, but agri-industrial waste materials can be found close to some
> of Kenya's game reserves.
>
> rgds;
>
> elk
>
>
> --------------------------
> Elsen L. Karstad
> elk@wananchi.com
> www.chardust.com
> Nairobi Kenya
>
>
>
>
-
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From english at adan.kingston.net Mon Oct 29 07:07:13 2001
From: english at adan.kingston.net (*.English)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:14 2004
Subject: Stoves database project
In-Reply-To: <3BD9F6E0.BA6D6712@cybershamanix.com>
Message-ID: <200110291207.f9TC7Oo19205@adan.kingston.net>
> Perhaps Alex English could tell us what plans he has for his web-site, and
> if and how additional information-pictures-links could be presented at that
> site.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Paul
> Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique
Dear Paul and stovers,
You ask what my plans are for the stoves website that I have been
maintaining.
I plan to wind it down. Originally the plan was simple. I would post
pictures and information related to the discussion on the stoves
list. If something was sent to me, I would post it. At that time, I
seemed to have the time and enthusiasm to follow every thread, build
and test stoves. The challenge was compelling. My learning curve was
steep. While I was building 10KW top down pyrolysers for possible
small scale uses, I was also trying to build a 1MW round bale furnace
for greenhouse hydronic heating. I think I burned out, so to speak. I
still read most of the messages. Often, I want to comment on what is
being said. However, it has mostly been said before and I am busy
enough with other challenges right now.
I have always tried to post stuff as soon as I received it. However
the last image from Crispin just got lost. Something has changed with
my internet service provider and my html editing program. I don't
seem to be able to edit the webpage and haven't found the time to
sort it out. The site was running out of space anyhow. So maybe it
is time for someone else to try. Any of the "information" on the
stoves website is available to be saved and reproduced on a new site.
The current site will probably not be continued when the bill comes
due, some time this winter. Your initiative with the Karve's to
develop an archive would likely be an improvement.
It is good to see the energy and commitment that you and other new
subscribers are bringing to the stoves mailing list discussions. I
look forward to following the progress.
And as always.....Hats off to the pillars, Ronal Larson, Tom
Miles, Tom Reed and the CREST co-ordinators.
Sincerely, Alex
Alex English
RR 2 Odessa, Ontario
Canada K0H 2H0
613-386-1927
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From CAVM at aol.com Mon Oct 29 07:37:46 2001
From: CAVM at aol.com (CAVM@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:14 2004
Subject: Kenya Power and heat
Message-ID: <6b.1cc0e7b1.290ea788@aol.com>
Ielk@wananchi.com writes:
<< Several tourist lodges here in Kenya are running large diesel generators
(100 - 200 KVA) to produce electricity. >>
<< The cost of diesel oil delivered to remote areas in Kenya can reach as
high as USD $0.75 per liter.>>
There are other options to produce electricity. A CHP (combined heat and
power) system can use many fuels. One that comes to mind for Kenya is
anaerobic digestion, especially using animal manures. Also Lake Victoria is
clogged with water plants that are now ground up by floating barges and
allowed to fall to the bottom so that boats can pass through them. These
could easily be harvested and brought to shore. The equipment from Aquarius
Systems is already in the country. Ground and stored in silos they will
produce huge quantities of methane. The digestate is excellent fertilizer
and could also be a livestock feed.
Extracting combustibles from the local waste stream could also produce enough
material for a CHP system using fluidized bed combustion to produce steam for
electrical power and improve the efficiency of the local landfills. This
combustible material could include ground rubber tires with no ecological
harm.
Last Fall the World Bank was prepared to loan a considerable amount of money
for an anaerobic digestion project using Lake Victoria water weeds but no
client was found to sponsor the project, order the plant built, sell the
power (Kenya ordered that it be sold at $.09 - it cost about $.07 KW) and
sell the fertilizer.
The waste heat and power could be used for local manufacture of briquettes
for sale in more remote areas and do the country a significant service. This
dual operation would reduce the dependence on diesel for power and also
produce fuel for the citizens.
The same types of projects are appropriate for Malawi and other areas.
Cornelius A. Van Milligen
Kentucky Enrichment Inc.
Ag project managers
CAVM@AOL.com
-
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From shayden at NRCan.gc.ca Mon Oct 29 08:59:40 2001
From: shayden at NRCan.gc.ca (Hayden, Skip)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:14 2004
Subject: Water heating
Message-ID: <45D22B267839D5119FD50002A5374A2D0EC1D2@S0-BCC-R1>
Recovering the waste heat from the generator flue gas, in addition to that
from the engine coolant, will give hot water in abundance, without the need
for the immersion heaters, at all. As well, having a hot water reservoir
that is adequately insulated will give a sump that would not necessarily
require the running of the diesel at all while hot water is being drawn,
just when electricity is required, so that you would have a true, efficient
co-generation system, whose overall efficiency might approach 70-80%, as
opposed to around 20% for the diesel.
Skip Hayden
A.C.S. Hayden
Senior Research Scientist
Advanced Combustion Technologies
ETB/CETC
1 Haanel Drive
Ottawa, Canada K1A 1M1
Tel: (613) 996 3186
Fax: (613) 992 9335
e-mail: skip.hayden@nrcan.gc.ca
-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Forssell [mailto:JEFF.FORSSELL@ssvh.se]
Sent: Monday, October 29, 2001 4:20 AM
To: 'elk'; 'stoves@crest.org'
Subject: SV: Water heating
I saw many examples of electric waterheaters i Tanzania that were totally
without insulation - sometimes even in accomodations with air-conditioners
whose load increases because of spill heat from hot water tank! (Would be
good if refrigerators and AC units could be connected to preheat water going
to a water heater - which would also increase eff of heat pump)
The efficiency of en electric immersion heater (in transferring electric
energy which reaches it to the water as heat) is practically 100%. But
lacking insulation can make them very inefficient but the % will depend on
ambient temp, chosen water temp, tank size, liter/day usage etc.
Considering the availabilty of solar heat its really a terrible shame
(noise, cost, CO2, repair needs for generation)
If generators are used for lighting, refrigeration etc which are good for
Electricity, the engine driving it should have its cooling system connected
to a hotwatertank so the 60%-80% of the energy which is normally lost in
generation. If the engine can be run on producer gas, than we're really
getting to something. ( I have seen divergent views on pollution potential
from producer engines- some saying lower that ordinary engines other saying
higher. I wonder if it could be connected to high (mech) efficiency need the
high compression engine which creates more NOx. If a lower compression
engine is used and the greater spill heat used - then the eff. could be the
same while decreasing NOx emissions)
********
Jeff Forssell (double s)
Swedish National Institute for Distance Education (SSVH)
Box 3024
S-871 03 HÄRNÖSAND /Sweden
+46(0)611-55 79 48 (Work) +46(0)611-55 79 80 (Fax Work)
+46(0)611-22 1 44 (Home) (070- 35 80 306 mobil)
Gamla Karlebyvägen 14 / 871 33 Härnösand
e-mail: every workday: jf@ssvh.se (travel, visiting:
jeff_forssell@hotmail.com)
Personal homepage: http://www.torget.se/users/i/iluhya/index.htm
My village technology page: http://home.bip.net/jeff.forssell
ICQ #: 55800587
> ----------
> Från: elk[SMTP:elk@wananchi.com]
> Skickat: den 29 oktober 2001 08:35
> Till: stoves@crest.org
> Angående: Water heating
>
> On the issue of efficiency:
>
> Several tourist lodges here in Kenya are running large diesel generators
> (100 - 200 KVA) to produce electricity. A great deal of this power is
> used for water heating via electric immersion heaters.
>
> This may a good example of costly inefficiency. Can anyone calculate the
> energy from the calorific content of the diesel oil through to the final
> energy of the hot water? I believe that the efficiency of electric
> immersion heaters is pretty high- in the region of 75%. What is the
> efficiency of a large diesel generator?
>
> If a good sustainably-sourced biomass fuel such as an agri-industrial
> waste briquette can be used to directly heat water via efficient heaters
> (boilers), it is possible that a cost savings can be made through a
> reduction in fossil-fuel use. The cost of diesel oil delivered to remote
> areas in Kenya can reach as high as USD $0.75 per liter.
>
> Obviously, the cost of transporting a briquetted fuel would have to be
> considered, but agri-industrial waste materials can be found close to some
> of Kenya's game reserves.
>
> rgds;
>
> elk
>
>
> --------------------------
> Elsen L. Karstad
> elk@wananchi.com
> www.chardust.com
> Nairobi Kenya
>
>
>
>
-
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http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml
For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
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From psanders at ilstu.edu Mon Oct 29 11:41:59 2001
From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:14 2004
Subject: Stoves database project
In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20011028100925.016f0c60@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20011029103631.016f0420@mail.ilstu.edu>
Alex and all,
Maybe CREST or the Karve's could host the site (best options), but as a
possible backup I might be able to prevail upon Illinois State University
to provide the server space.
BUT I would NOT be the person to maintain the site, so the WHO question is
not resolved yet.
Paul
At 07:08 AM 10/29/01 -0500, *.English wrote:
> > Perhaps Alex English could tell us what plans he has for his web-site,
>Dear Paul and stovers,
>You ask what my plans are for the stoves website that I have been
>maintaining.
>
>I plan to wind it down. ...
>The site was running out of space anyhow. So maybe it
>is time for someone else to try. Any of the "information" on the
>stoves website is available to be saved and reproduced on a new site.
>The current site will probably not be continued when the bill comes
>due, some time this winter. Your initiative with the Karve's to
>develop an archive would likely be an improvement.
Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders
-
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Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
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For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
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From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Mon Oct 29 11:59:42 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:14 2004
Subject: Stoves database project
In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20011028100925.016f0c60@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <3BDD8ACB.8E27D6CD@cybershamanix.com>
Sorry I haven't gotten back on this sooner, but I'm busy looking for an
*immediate* heating solution for our shop/greenhouse -- and also because I'm
not at all clear on what the database project is all about. I would think it
far simpler to just use a good search engine like google on the archives than
to spend the considerable amount of time to create an actual database.
At any rate, I could probably find time to maintain a web site, although
I have no place to host it.
"Paul S. Anderson" wrote:
> Alex and all,
>
> Maybe CREST or the Karve's could host the site (best options), but as a
> possible backup I might be able to prevail upon Illinois State University
> to provide the server space.
>
> BUT I would NOT be the person to maintain the site, so the WHO question is
> not resolved yet.
>
> Paul
>
> At 07:08 AM 10/29/01 -0500, *.English wrote:
>
> > > Perhaps Alex English could tell us what plans he has for his web-site,
>
> >Dear Paul and stovers,
> >You ask what my plans are for the stoves website that I have been
> >maintaining.
> >
> >I plan to wind it down. ...
>
> >The site was running out of space anyhow. So maybe it
> >is time for someone else to try. Any of the "information" on the
> >stoves website is available to be saved and reproduced on a new site.
> >The current site will probably not be continued when the bill comes
> >due, some time this winter. Your initiative with the Karve's to
> >develop an archive would likely be an improvement.
>
> Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
> Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
> Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
> E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders
>
> -
> Stoves List Archives and Website:
> http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
> http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
>
> Stoves List Moderators:
> Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
> Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
> Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
>
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>
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> -
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> http://www.fsec.ucf.edu/bioam/
> http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
> http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml
>
> For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
> http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm
--
Harmon Seaver, MLIS
CyberShamanix
Work 920-203-9633
Home 920-233-5820
hseaver@cybershamanix.com
http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html
-
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For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
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From mheat at mha-net.org Mon Oct 29 12:09:10 2001
From: mheat at mha-net.org (Norbert Senf)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:14 2004
Subject: Stoves database project
In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20011028100925.016f0c60@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011029120728.02906cd0@127.0.0.1>
At 10:59 AM 2001-10-29 -0600, Harmon Seaver wrote:
>(snip)
> At any rate, I could probably find time to maintain a web site, although
>I have no place to host it.
I can provide free hosting space on the Masonry Heater Association server.
Best ....... Norbert
----------------------------------------
Norbert Senf---------- mheat@mha-net.org-nospam
Masonry Stove Builders (remove -nospam)
RR 5, Shawville------- www.heatkit.com
Quebec J0X 2Y0-------- fax:-----819.647.6082
---------------------- voice:---819.647.5092
-
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For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
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From grant at ecoharmony.com Mon Oct 29 13:34:28 2001
From: grant at ecoharmony.com (Grant Ballard-Tremeer)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:14 2004
Subject: Stoves database project
In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20011028100925.016f0c60@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <01102920315807.01234@localhost.localdomain>
On Monday 29 October 2001 5:09 pm, Norbert Senf wrote:
> At 10:59 AM 2001-10-29 -0600, Harmon Seaver wrote:
> >(snip)
> > At any rate, I could probably find time to maintain a web site,
> > although I have no place to host it.
>
> I can provide free hosting space on the Masonry Heater Association server.
>
> Best ....... Norbert
Another possibility which I can offer is on the server of the HEDON
Household Energy Network http://ecoharmony.net/hedon
I could also do some site maintainance.
Regards
Grant
-
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From ronallarson at qwest.net Mon Oct 29 14:01:05 2001
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:14 2004
Subject: hosting possibilities
Message-ID: <00b601c160ac$4fd0a600$52e26641@computer>
The way this list operates is
with Tom Miles being the main contact with CREST and potential
sponsors/funders. Following today's message expressing a need to
disengage from Alex, Tom and I have exchanged several messages and Tom is
actively working on a "best" solution right now.
I am sure he appreciates, and I
certainly do, the several great offers already of assistance (Paul,
Harmon, Norbert, Grant,..) . Similar messages can come to the
full group - or go directly to Tom <<A
href="mailto:tmiles@trmiles.com">tmiles@trmiles.com>. I am sure Tom
would appreciate ideas and opinions - as well as offers.
Looks like Tom can have many
good offers to work with - possibly including CREST itself.
Ron
From tmiles at trmiles.com Mon Oct 29 14:31:57 2001
From: tmiles at trmiles.com (Tom Miles)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:14 2004
Subject: hosting possibilities
In-Reply-To: <00b601c160ac$4fd0a600$52e26641@computer>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011029112553.02ed2a00@pop3.norton.antivirus>
Ron and the List,
We do appreciate the prompt response and offers to help. They reflect the
productive spirt this list has maintained since its inception.
We do have some promising new options at CREST that I didn't know about
before the topic was introduced. They can not only host the site but
select moderators will be able to post content to the site which should
reduce the volunteer burden. We are of course always looking for means of
funding these functions.
Thanks for your continued support.
More later.
Tom
At 12:02 PM 10/29/01 -0700, Ron Larson wrote:
The way this list operates is with Tom Miles being the main contact with
CREST and potential sponsors/funders. Following today's
message expressing a need to disengage from Alex, Tom and I have
exchanged several messages and Tom is actively working on a
"best" solution right now.
I am sure he appreciates,
and I certainly do, the several great offers already of assistance (Paul,
Harmon, Norbert, Grant,..) . Similar messages can come
to the full group - or go directly to Tom
<tmiles@trmiles.com>.
I am sure Tom would appreciate ideas and opinions - as well as
offers.
Looks like Tom can have many
good offers to work with - possibly including CREST itself.
Ron
Thomas R
Miles tmiles@trmiles.com
T R Miles,
TCI Tel
503-292-0107
1470 SW Woodward Way Fax
503-292-2919
Portland, OR 97225 USA
From andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com Mon Oct 29 16:04:10 2001
From: andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com (AJH)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:14 2004
Subject: Water heating
In-Reply-To: <013b01c16050$05e61720$1e41083e@default>
Message-ID: <eqerttkm0n08im958qltpdgk5t4gclu8e9@4ax.com>
On Mon, 29 Oct 2001 10:35:56 +0300, "elk" <elk@wananchi.com> wrote:
>On the issue of efficiency:
>
>Several tourist lodges here in Kenya are running large diesel generators (100 - 200 KVA) to produce electricity. A great deal of this power is used for water heating via electric immersion heaters.
I instigated the installation of a small (10kVA) diesel genset powered
CHP scheme here, the waste heat is used for space heating a classroom.
>
>This may a good example of costly inefficiency. Can anyone calculate the energy from the calorific content of the diesel oil through to the final energy of the hot water? I believe that the efficiency of electric immersion heaters is pretty high- in the region of 75%. What is the efficiency of a large diesel generator?
One thing to be aware of is that small alternators are not very
efficient so our figures will be worse than your larger systems,
however all diesel generators show a bad specific fuel consumption
when running at less than optimum load, so immersion heaters may
figure as long as they are part of a load sensing system. The actual
immersion element is able to deliver 100% of the energy into the
water, losses are in insulation and distribution.
An optimally running diesel genset of 100kVA+ will convert 33% of the
fuel energy into electricity, 22% will be gathered by the coolant and
36% will be in the exhaust (at 500C!) at reduced loads these
proportions vary.
Experience with our genset shows we achieve only 20% conversion to
electricity and our heat recovery from the exhaust is poor mainly
because we have installed a genset to supply peak loads and most of
the time it runs at an average of 2kW, so in order to prevent the
bores glazing we do use immersion heaters for 30 minutes each day to
load the generator.
AJH
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From psanders at ilstu.edu Mon Oct 29 18:48:33 2001
From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:14 2004
Subject: Success with NC IDD !!
Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20011029162115.016e3dd0@mail.ilstu.edu>
Stovers,
I had a fun weekend playing with stoves, and had substantial success (for
my low level of skills).
First, thanks to Tom Reed and Ron Larson for both the background on the NC
IDD stove and for their expert advice in recent messages. I am a firm
believer in the need to know the theory, and also the need to experiment to
see what happens.
(anyone who has not seen the Reed - Larson paper on IDD woodgasifier can
see it at Alex English's website.) go
to: http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/T1.htm
Summary of why it was a successful experiment: Basically, I made it smaller.
I reduced the diameter of both the lower (gasifier) unit and the upper
(burner) unit to about 4 inches in diameter (original unit has 6 inch
diameter minus the 1/2 inch for the riser sleeve for insulation. Height of
each half was about 6 inches, but height did not seem to be too critical as
I experimented with more chimney and less chimney, etc.
Burner actually slid down on the outside of the gasifer, and the secondary
air poured in along the small lateral gap between the two
cylinders. Clearly visible gasification down low, and rolling flames above
the gap.
Note: The original unit has a VERTICAL gap, therefore no momentum of
uplift and no pre-heating as occurs in the lateral gap
The whole experiment was surrounded by a larger ( 7 inch diameter) cylinder
to prevent wind interference. That outside cylinder never got hot to the
touch.
My inside cylinders were thin aluminum only because I was using some
"double-walled" furnace pipe that I bought Saturday night. Aluminum helps
transmit the heat downward, but the overlap was only about 1 to 1.5
inches. Instead, more important was the radiant heat outwards that
pre-warmed the ambient air before it was sucked upward into the burner
cylinder.
Why was smaller better? I believe (if I have learned well from Tom and
Ron) that the smaller diameter means that the secondary air has a shorter
distance to travel (radius of cylinder) in order to be mixed with the
rising gases. (We had much talk last week about the importance of mixing.)
Additional notes: I was outside in the late afternoon when temperatures
were about 50 to 55 degrees F. (about 15 degrees C ??) So my ambient air
was cool.
Problem: I could not cut the primary air low enough. I am surprised at
how little primary air seems to be needed. But I could have developed an
air leak late in the experiments.
Fuel: I purchased a bag of "pellets" for pellet stoves. Said to be of
hardwood. About 5 mm diameter and 20 mm long. I was concerned that the
air would not draw well through such small bits of fuel. But all worked
well except one time when I think I abused the filling process.
Lighting was easy, and took only one match each time. I took one of the
briquettes I had made (ala Richard Stanley's method) with a lot of paper in
it and broke it apart and put "lamp / torch fuel" on the pieces. They were
damp, but not squishy. I dropped the pieces onto the top of the fuel in
the gasifier unit and droped in a match. Instant flame and successful
ignition of the pellets.
I did this about 5 or 6 times, stopping the experiment each time that it
seemed that the only burning was of the charcoal remains after
gasification. I would simply dump out the charcoal, re-load the gasifier,
and relight it.
I first tried to extinguish the charcoal by smothering it, and later by
spreading it out in the cold on cast iron. Both of those methods failed to
save the charcoal which simply SLOWLY was consumed until only ash
remained. So I then started to dump the charcoal into a bucket of water
(the old "quench it" method). I will now need to dry out that charcoal if
I want to see how well it burns as charcoal. (That is for another day, or
someone can tell me about how charcoal drys. For example, I assume that
ELK knows a great deal about char in a water slurry that is compressed and
then it must be put out to dry, right? I am not very concerned about the
wet charcoal at this time, but it is important.)
I did not try to boil water or do anything useful with the fire. I did
place extra cans (about 8 inches) on top to create more chimney effect, and
the flames kept coming to the top to the higher cans.
Comparing my experience with Tom and Ron's, I return to the issue of the
diameter. Tom's Turbo Stove has a small diameter (a factor that helps it
work better than the Natural Convection NC model). and the blower on the
Turbo model assures the mixing of the secondary air.
(When I blew into the primary inlet hole (tube), I could GREATLY increase
the fame. Sort of fun doing that and showing my wife, especially because
it was getting dark outside and the fames were especially visible.) Just
like a forge. A small bellows or other "air supplement" might be a nice
addition for the "deluxe" model, but that is not required.
I am anxious to try again, and with different cans and configurations.
It will also be nice when the upper unit (burner) is free-standing, such as
being supported by a base that is open on one side (where the lower unit is
inserted). The upper unit needs to be a can about 4-5 inches in diameter,
open at both ends, and surrounded by an air cavity of generally still
air. In other words, the base (and its extension to the upper unit) COULD
be of clay or metal and would surround and support the upper can, but with
an air space of 1 to 3 cm around the can. The total height is about 12 to
16 inches.
The lower can (gasifier) is of smaller diameter so that it can be partially
inserted into the bottom of the upper can after it is lighted. The lower
can is open only at the top, and has a small (control-able is best) opening
for entry of primary air at the bottom.
And if the user wants MORE heat than what one burner can provide, do NOT
make a bigger burner. But put 2 or 3 or 4 of the smaller gasifiers
together into the stove unit, each with its own upper burner, but let the
top end of the burners come together into one stove chamber.
If there is anything patentable in this disclosure, I understand that I
have at least up to one year from today's date to apply for any patents. I
believe in patent rights, and that I could then have some control over the
commercialization of the invention (as in payments from the big global
companies) and still allow royalty-free production of the stoves in
developing countries. In other words, the ideas expressed here are FREE
for the poor, but the rich who would want to make money off of this would
need to provide some of that money to me and the others who are creating
better stoves.
In summary, the small 4inch NC IDD woodgasifier stove was successfully
tested at one location. Additional testing and refinements are
needed. All are encouraged to participate with this development.
Still having fun !!!
Paul
Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders
-
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For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
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From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Mon Oct 29 23:30:35 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:14 2004
Subject: Success with NC IDD !!
In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20011029162115.016e3dd0@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <3BDE2CC5.46202FC1@cybershamanix.com>
Interesting that you had success with pellets. I had been looking
thru the archives, and sometime ago had read Tom Reed's post about corn
not working, and, upon just re-reading his and Ron's paper you mentioned
caught something that hadn't registered with me before: that pellets and
corn didn't work because of lack of air space thru the fuel bed.
I had (mistakenly, I see now) thought the reason corn didn't gasify
was because of the tendency for the corn kernels to melt together
sometimes (which corn stovers overcome by adding ground limestone or
oyster shell to the fuel). So I'm wondering what the difference was with
your experiment -- did the one failure come about by some sort of
packing on your part?
And, if the problem with corn is primarily air spacing, is there
some simple method of overcoming this, say, mixing with some proportion
of wood chips? I guess I'll have to head over to the recycling center
tomorrow and find some cans.
--
Harmon Seaver, MLIS
CyberShamanix
Work 920-203-9633
Home 920-233-5820
hseaver@cybershamanix.com
http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html
-
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From psanders at ilstu.edu Tue Oct 30 09:44:32 2001
From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:15 2004
Subject: Success with NC IDD !!
In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20011029162115.016e3dd0@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20011030083445.01a4b600@mail.ilstu.edu>
Hi,
Lucky I didn't remember reading that pellets do not work. They did work
for me.
Note: The one failure was when I FILLED the can to its 5 inch
height. The other times I only put in about 2 inches of pellets.
IF airflow is the problem with pellets, we need bigger pellets OR some
SPACER or additional air-duct to allow primary air to reach the upper
parts of the container.
Rationale: When we throw in too many variables (such as low quality fuel)
into our experiments, we will miss the main issues of the stove
construction. Once we have a good stove design that functions
consistently with decent fuel, we can THEN focus
A. on improving the poor fuel, or
B. on modifying the stove to use poor (or alternative) fuels.
OR, if we are to experiment with the different qualities of fuels, we need
to be careful to note if we have changed the stove to suit the fuels.
In other words, if stove "a" and fuel "b" give a 75% result, and
if stove "c" with fuel "d" give an 80% result, there is NO valid comparison.
Our Stoves listserve has had discussions about the lack of standards for
testing, such as type of pot, amount of water, and initial temperature of
the water. Therefore, we can NOT make decent comparisons between the
different experiments. We need to improve on that.
Paul
At 10:30 PM 10/29/01 -0600, Harmon Seaver wrote:
> Interesting that you had success with pellets. I had been looking
>thru the archives, and sometime ago had read Tom Reed's post about corn
>not working, and, upon just re-reading his and Ron's paper you mentioned
>caught something that hadn't registered with me before: that pellets and
>corn didn't work because of lack of air space thru the fuel bed.
> I had (mistakenly, I see now) thought the reason corn didn't gasify
>was because of the tendency for the corn kernels to melt together
>sometimes (which corn stovers overcome by adding ground limestone or
>oyster shell to the fuel). So I'm wondering what the difference was with
>your experiment -- did the one failure come about by some sort of
>packing on your part?
> And, if the problem with corn is primarily air spacing, is there
>some simple method of overcoming this, say, mixing with some proportion
>of wood chips? I guess I'll have to head over to the recycling center
>tomorrow and find some cans.
>
>--
>Harmon Seaver, MLIS
>CyberShamanix
>Work 920-203-9633
>Home 920-233-5820
>hseaver@cybershamanix.com
>http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html
>
>-
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>
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>
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>
>For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
>http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm
Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders
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From psanders at ilstu.edu Tue Oct 30 10:16:42 2001
From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:15 2004
Subject: stoves database: update
In-Reply-To: <001501c1614b$5cb82ce0$292033ca@karve>
Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20011030091020.01a40d50@mail.ilstu.edu>
Priya and all,
Good !!!!!
I assume the Maryland people would take a USA check, cash it in the USA,
and carry the cash to India. If different, let me know.
Our PERSONAL greetings to Mrudul and Prasad. Welcome to the team
!!! (You have probably been involved with stoves for MUCH longer
than I have been !!! )
We probably want to see a "sample" so that all Stovers can
comment on the structure of the organization of the information (notice
that I did NOT say "database" because that carries a specific
image of presentation style.
Paul
At 07:14 PM 10/30/01 +0530, karve wrote:
Paul et al.,
Both the students, Prasad and Mrudul,
have started work on the project since last week or so. I am expecting
some output by this weekend.
So the only question that needs to be
sorted out now is how to get the money to India, with minimum loss in
terms of bank commissions, etc. My Ph.D. supervisor, Prof. Ogale is
currently in Maryland University, and will be returning to Pune in
December. I am writing to him seperately to find out if any of the
Indians in his circle are planning to return earlier. Otherwise, he can
bring the money with him. Neither of the two students are 'desparate' for
the payment, so I think they would not mind waiting a bit!
As far as hosting the database is
concerned, I think CREST is the natural first choice, if Alex is planning
to shut down his site. Let's wait for further response from Tom
Miles.
Regards,
Priya
Dr. Priyadarshini Karve
Lecturer in Physics, Sinhgad College of Engineering, Pune, India.
Member, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute, Pune, India.
Founder Member, Sandarbh (an organisation devoted to science and
education), Pune, India.
Address for correspondence: 6, Koyna Apartments, S.No.133,
Kothrud, Pune 411 029, India
Phone: 91-020-5442217/5423258
E-mail: karve@wmi.co.in /
adkarve@pn2.vsnl.net.in
Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 -
7/00
Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State
University
Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice:
309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items:
www.ilstu.edu/~psanders
From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Wed Oct 31 02:31:25 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:15 2004
Subject: Refractories and Insulation
In-Reply-To: <3BDF624C.D928457D@cybershamanix.com>
Message-ID: <3BDFA8A5.5F289F8E@cybershamanix.com>
Reading more in the archives, I've found a bunch of posts about using
insulation like duroboard and cerablanket in gasifiers around the fire
chamber itself to increase the temps.
And then looking more at Tom and Ron's stove design, I'm seeing what
looks like an insulation layer higher up, after the secondary air inlets
-- I'm thinking this doesn't serve the same purpose.
Also -- am I correct in thinking that if there was no secondary
air, there would be no ignition of the producer gas. I'm wondering how
far away from the actual flame front can the secondary air be introduced
and still have auto ignition of the gases?
--
Harmon Seaver, MLIS
CyberShamanix
Work 920-203-9633
Home 920-233-5820
hseaver@cybershamanix.com
http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html
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From tombreed at home.com Wed Oct 31 08:31:54 2001
From: tombreed at home.com (Thomas Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:15 2004
Subject: Refractories and Insulation
In-Reply-To: <3BDF624C.D928457D@cybershamanix.com>
Message-ID: <007f01c1620e$def2c1c0$18e5b618@lakwod3.co.home.com>
Dear Harmon and Stoves:
The insulation shown for our natural draft stoves us usually "riser
sleeves", available from foundries and foundry supply companies. They will
withstand temperatures of 1500 C (molten steel), can be cut easily with a
knife, can be hardened with "rigidizer", and cost $1-$4 apiece, depending on
size (available 3 inch to 12 inch OD, typically 1/2 in thick).
The gas is not autoigniting and requires a source of ignition and preferably
a flame holder. If you get a flameout, you immediately relight or
extinguish because the tars in the gas are acrid.
Yours truly, TOM REED
Dr. Thomas Reed
The Biomass Energy Foundation
1810 Smith Rd., Golden, CO 80401
303 278 0558;
tombreed@home.com; www.woodgas.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Harmon Seaver" <hseaver@cybershamanix.com>
To: "stoves" <stoves@crest.org>
Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 12:30 AM
Subject: Re: Refractories and Insulation
> Reading more in the archives, I've found a bunch of posts about using
> insulation like duroboard and cerablanket in gasifiers around the fire
> chamber itself to increase the temps.
> And then looking more at Tom and Ron's stove design, I'm seeing what
> looks like an insulation layer higher up, after the secondary air inlets
> -- I'm thinking this doesn't serve the same purpose.
> Also -- am I correct in thinking that if there was no secondary
> air, there would be no ignition of the producer gas. I'm wondering how
> far away from the actual flame front can the secondary air be introduced
> and still have auto ignition of the gases?
>
> --
> Harmon Seaver, MLIS
> CyberShamanix
> Work 920-203-9633
> Home 920-233-5820
> hseaver@cybershamanix.com
> http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html
>
>
>
> -
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>
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>
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>
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From andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com Wed Oct 31 08:34:02 2001
From: andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com (AJH)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:15 2004
Subject: Refractories and Insulation
In-Reply-To: <3BDF624C.D928457D@cybershamanix.com>
Message-ID: <08nvtt8rvbi1ha2do011dm74e1qq0f56gb@4ax.com>
On Wed, 31 Oct 2001 01:30:49 -0600, Harmon Seaver
<hseaver@cybershamanix.com> wrote:
> Also -- am I correct in thinking that if there was no secondary
>air, there would be no ignition of the producer gas.
Yes if the primary air is completely used up in gasifying the fuel
offgas passed to the secondary chamber is pyrolysis products, hydrogen
and CO with as little CO2 as possible. If temperatures are less than
ideal steam and CO2 are carried over rather than reacted with the
char.
>I'm wondering how
>far away from the actual flame front can the secondary air be introduced
>and still have auto ignition of the gases?
I am not sure you mean auto ignition, this will only occur if the
offgas+secondary air temperature remains above the temperature at
which spontaneous combustion of one of the component gases occurs. The
more heat losses that occur the less likely this becomes, plus
volatile components condense out of the gas.
What generally occurs is that the "flare" of the secondary gases is
maintained by the flame "holding" on the burner, this means that there
is always a "spark" to keep the flame propagated. It is not at all
unusual to have the secondary flame blow out and give copious clouds
of whitish yellow noxious fumes, at which point a match or lighter
reignites the secondary burn.
In a downdraft gasifier the design is aimed at cracking or oxidising
all larger molecules and then passing the product (steam and CO2)
through a deep bed of very hot char to react them to syngas (CO+H2)
this can then be cooled and piped to further processes. With IDD
stoves the necessary temperature are not met so the offgas consists of
a lot of volatile pyrolysis chemicals.
AJH
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From ronallarson at qwest.net Wed Oct 31 09:32:34 2001
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:15 2004
Subject: Refractories and Insulation
In-Reply-To: <3BDF624C.D928457D@cybershamanix.com>
Message-ID: <001e01c16219$1ce10d20$17f76641@computer>
Harmon and stovers:
First, apologies for not responding to several earlier letters. I am
getting closer to getting out from other (have to deliver a proposal on
Friday - but this looks timely and relatively easy to answer.
See more below.
----- Original Message -----
From: Harmon Seaver <hseaver@cybershamanix.com>
To: stoves <stoves@crest.org>
Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 12:30 AM
Subject: Re: Refractories and Insulation
> Reading more in the archives, I've found a bunch of posts about using
> insulation like duroboard and cerablanket in gasifiers around the fire
> chamber itself to increase the temps.
(RWL): Certainly, the result is to increase the temperatures - but I
think it better to say that one is trying to reduce radial heat loss in the
combustion chamber region.
> And then looking more at Tom and Ron's stove design, I'm seeing what
> looks like an insulation layer higher up, after the secondary air inlets
> -- I'm thinking this doesn't serve the same purpose.
(RWL): I wouldn't look too deeply at any single design - either
nothing or little is on the market. Most eveything is limited to materials
on hand. In my work I have mostly concentrated on getting the dimensions
right and getting something to work - and to keep the price down (working
only with cans that are on the way to the dump - as with Richard Boyt's
ten-can design). As I am sure you know, multiple layers of metal can
provide good insulative value. I checked out the price of a ceramic "glass
filament" flexible blanket last week - and (again) decided against buying it
despite its nice properties. The cost was $4.00 per square foot (about $4
per square meter). This cost could come down considerably with bulk
purchases - but I think is not yet what we can recommend in most developing
countries. I think a preferred approach is ceramics - which seem to be
made locally almost everywhere - with emphasis on lightening them (as Dean
Still has been doing with bricks). A thin layer of metal on each side
would make this a formidable competitor.
The secondary air inlet design needs a lot of work also. Preheating
could be from the top or bottom - but we need better ways to either make it
demountable or not (depending on the use of a separate removale fuel can,
etc)
> Also -- am I correct in thinking that if there was no secondary
> air, there would be no ignition of the producer gas.
(RWL): The simple answer is yes. Only a very small portion of the
total air needs to be used in the first or primary pyrolysis stage (some of
the required oxygen is obtained from the fuel itself). But most of us have
not been controlling the secondary air, so I can conceive of designs where
one controls total air - so that it becomes harder to distinguish one from
the other.
>I'm wondering how
> far away from the actual flame front can the secondary air be introduced
> and still have auto ignition of the gases?
>
(RWL) This is what I really wanted to explore today - a very good
question that I do not recall being discussed at all on this list. I do not
have the answer, and hope that others can jump in who may have studied this
phenomenon.. It also gets at the issue of maintaining a flame and the whole
issue of mixing before lighting - or settling for a diffusion flame (and the
consequences on price of the stove).
My first answer is that in the simplest designs where the secondary air
is introduced through a narrow slit (maybe 1 to 3 mm - doesn't seem
critical) or a series of "nail holes" (of similar diameter), the flame seems
to attach right at the edge of the metal. I have had problems with holes of
say 1 cm diameter - and believe that smaller is better, but can't prove that
quantitatively.
My experience is that one is going to have trouble with the whole
process if ignition is higher and not maintained close to the secondary air
source. I used to think that it was advantageous to have flaming sticks
above the level of the secondary air inlets to serve as a "match" to keep
the flame lit. It is very necessary (and not necessarily shown in the
simple schematics) to have a wind screen near the secondary air inlets - a
top lit, charcoal making, IDD design is pretty easy to blow out - and
especially when the primary air supply is cut back to a minimum. What works
in a laboratory might not work outdoors. But fixing this problem is
relatively easy and cheap and will help in the preheating process.
Now if one wishes, one can concentrate on premixing the air - and this
is the approach of Tom Reed and some others. An example in addition to the
ones Tom Reed recently mentioned is the Bunsen Burner. This works because
the (laboratory) gas is under pressure so that a Venturi effect can draw in
the correct (controllable) amount of total air (no need to separate into
primary and secondary when the gas is totally combustable). Then mixing
occurs over a height of many diameters (6-10?) in what I remember, and the
flame is a lovely blue color that we all want. I hope someone can tell of
experiments or theory that says what that minimum height has to be for the
laboratory-type Bunsen burner - that will help get at the question you are
asking. I think Alex English may have studied this some. A lot must have
to do also with the turbulence that one can achieve when the air and gas
first start mixing and the angle at which the two flows meet and progress up
to the point wher the flame begins.
In the Bunsen burner, that point is where one has a "screen". There is
something about flame propagation speed that dictates how small the screen
pores must be to not have the flame propagate down the "Bunsen burner"
mixing tube. I hope someone on the list can point us to that literature -
it could help answer something about mixing. (The reason for thinking all
this through well is that we want to keep the excess air down so as to keep
the temperatures and therefore the efficiency high.)
So this brings us back to the issue of preferring diffusion vs pre-mixed
flames - which I believe is part of your question. If the flame is not
near the secondary air inlets, then you have a chance for pre-mixing and a
better flame. I don't know how to specify that height to achieve the
pre-mixing - but the height will dictate the economics and complexity of the
final cooker - which we are trying to keep in the $5-$20 range.
I found experimentally that I had a workable stove with the diffusion
flame approach when the combustion chamber height was about 1.5 times the
diameter. I have also seen (but haven't any hope of now finding)
statements that open flames (such as oil on water) have about this same
relationship. This argues I believe for smaller throats (but I have seen no
reports on experimental work along this line) or inserts in the combustion
region. Fortunately tin cans have about this ratio. If it is taller, you
have less chance of blackening the pot, but more cost and more heat
radiating surface. If it is smaller, there will be more blackening and soot
production.
The flame will be much shorter when using premixed air, but one still
has the height problem to accomplish the premixing. This is partially
compensated by having this "mixing height" operate at a (much) lower
temperature, so losses are less. But one has to pay for the blower and
energy source to achieve the pre-mixing (Venturi or Koanda effect or
wahtever). So far no one has offered a low cost method of doing the
premixing without an external power source. Even if one had such an
approach, one probably would have some operating difficulties (getting lit
one way and then switching over?) This is a great challenge for everyone on
the list!! (Which remind me that I started some conversations with Andrew
Heggie about alternatives to electricity for supplying higher pressure air.
Andrew reminded me that the "brake" for spring wound toys is a "blower".)
We also should be talking at the same time of ways to maintain a high
temperature internally to assist in auto ignition - as you have implied in
your question. Because catalysis is important in flame ignition
temperature, we should be asking something about materials as well - maybe
even a sacrificial material (if low cost). There has been zero discussion
on this list about this topic. (note that the early movie projectors used
lime ("limelight") where the gas flame hit in order to get an intense white
light.
I don't think I have helped answer your question (on how far) - but you
did get a partial data dump on what I know and what I thnk is involved in
getting the right decision for different uses (with emphasis on this list
for low cost) . Perhaps other on the list can chime in on this important
topic you have raised.
> --
> Harmon Seaver, MLIS
> CyberShamanix
> Work 920-203-9633
> Home 920-233-5820
> hseaver@cybershamanix.com
> http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html
-
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From andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com Wed Oct 31 11:47:13 2001
From: andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com (AJH)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:15 2004
Subject: Refractories and Insulation
In-Reply-To: <3BDF624C.D928457D@cybershamanix.com>
Message-ID: <4580ut40h4bc3ragkvmoa651lrdb9ioldd@4ax.com>
On Wed, 31 Oct 2001 07:34:12 -0700, "Ron Larson"
<ronallarson@qwest.net> wrote:
>
>
> Now if one wishes, one can concentrate on premixing the air - and this
>is the approach of Tom Reed and some others. An example in addition to the
>ones Tom Reed recently mentioned is the Bunsen Burner. This works because
>the (laboratory) gas is under pressure so that a Venturi effect can draw in
>the correct (controllable) amount of total air (no need to separate into
>primary and secondary when the gas is totally combustable).
I think the bunsen burner is an eductor or aspirator rather than a
venturi, it is a kinetic energy driven device rather than a velocity
change creating "lift".
> Then mixing
>occurs over a height of many diameters (6-10?) in what I remember, and the
>flame is a lovely blue color that we all want.
I think there is an element of diffusion in a bunsen burner flame
also, the hottest part, the bright blue, is premixed, the outer darker
blue is the diffusion flame. If I remember this correctly then the gas
flame is a two stage process. This is also demonstrated in an
oxy-acetylene burner where you control the fuel:air mix by maximising
the contrast between these zones.
> I hope someone can tell of
>experiments or theory that says what that minimum height has to be for the
>laboratory-type Bunsen burner - that will help get at the question you are
>asking. I think Alex English may have studied this some. A lot must have
>to do also with the turbulence that one can achieve when the air and gas
>first start mixing and the angle at which the two flows meet and progress up
>to the point wher the flame begins.
This height is presumably to allow mixing, it could be of any length
but then more prone to blowback, the thing that attaches the flame to
the top of the burner is to do with the velocity of the pre-mixed
products and the flame speed of the mixture.
>
> In the Bunsen burner, that point is where one has a "screen". There is
>something about flame propagation speed that dictates how small the screen
>pores must be to not have the flame propagate down the "Bunsen burner"
>mixing tube. I hope someone on the list can point us to that literature -
>it could help answer something about mixing. (The reason for thinking all
>this through well is that we want to keep the excess air down so as to keep
>the temperatures and therefore the efficiency high.)
I do not recall these screens, are you perhaps referring to the gauze
experiment where it can be shown the gauze conducts heat away from the
flame sufficient to prevent combustion, the principle on which the
Davey safety lamp works?
<snip>
> The flame will be much shorter when using premixed air, but one still
>has the height problem to accomplish the premixing. This is partially
>compensated by having this "mixing height" operate at a (much) lower
>temperature, so losses are less. But one has to pay for the blower and
>energy source to achieve the pre-mixing (Venturi or Koanda effect or
>wahtever). So far no one has offered a low cost method of doing the
>premixing without an external power source. Even if one had such an
>approach, one probably would have some operating difficulties (getting lit
>one way and then switching over?) This is a great challenge for everyone on
>the list!! (Which remind me that I started some conversations with Andrew
>Heggie about alternatives to electricity for supplying higher pressure air.
>Andrew reminded me that the "brake" for spring wound toys is a "blower".)
Well I offered several possibilities, the clockwork or falling weight
one is to what you refer, I would not use the term brake, rather
"govern", my thought was that as power consumption of the fan is
related to the cube of the air velocity that the blower itself would
govern its speed within narrow limits (rather than need an
escapement), this governed speed could then also control the fuel
metering device, still a lot more complicated than natural draft.
Incidentally when considering even modest electric power like 3 watts
we will need to generate much more than this to store in a battery,
the best thing about this is the abundance of electronically com
mutated fans available from PCs.
>
> We also should be talking at the same time of ways to maintain a high
>temperature internally to assist in auto ignition - as you have implied in
>your question. Because catalysis is important in flame ignition
>temperature, we should be asking something about materials as well - maybe
>even a sacrificial material (if low cost). There has been zero discussion
>on this list about this topic. (note that the early movie projectors used
>lime ("limelight") where the gas flame hit in order to get an intense white
>light.
This was incandescence, not a catalytic effect, interesting in the
thermal-photo-voltaic scenario though, these gallenium arsenide
devices are reputedly 10 times more effective than Joule effect
devices so I can visualise a ring of incandescent material surrounded
by 3 Watts worth of these powering the blower, the semiconductor being
cooled by the secondary air flow from the blower.
AJH
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