From crispin at newdawn.sz Fri Feb 1 05:21:42 2002 From: crispin at newdawn.sz (New Dawn Engineering /ATEX) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:33 2004 Subject: Graphs of tests Message-ID: <005e01c1ab34$995ad340$2a47fea9@md> Dear Stovershttp://www.newdawn-engineering.com/website/stove/tests/basitests/Basintuthu8.htmandhttp://www.newdawn-engineering.com/website/stove/tests/basitests/Basintuthu9.htmhave the flame temperature tests for those who want to see them graphically.RegardsCrispin From psanders at ilstu.edu Fri Feb 1 05:26:00 2002 From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:34 2004 Subject: Biomass and EnergySecurity in sub-Saharan Africa Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20020201090918.017dde50@mail.ilstu.edu> Stovers, We all worry about attachments.  I opened Evans' document without any evident problems (sometimes they come later, but my virus protection is recently up-dated). Anyway, I took the liberty to copy the document and insert it below inside this e-mail message.  Some format changes might make it look messy, the is my fault (and MicroSoft's) and not from Evans. Footnote numbers did NOT copy at all. If hard to read, you might want to do "select all" and then paste into Word (or other word processor) which will bring it back close to the pages structure intended. Content:  A quick look tells me that Evans has a very useful document that is important for understanding the fuel issues facing Africa south of the Sahara. I plan on being at the Jo-burg conference in early September, and Evans also, it seems.  We need to prepare ourselves, and Evans paper is a starting point. To Evans:  can you (and others) tell us more about activities of interest to us about stoves and fuels at the Jo-burg conference?   What opportunities are there for presentations, demonstration, participations? When I previously mentioned the conference, one of the few responses was from Tom R. who played down its importance as being more talk than action.  I can agree with Tom.  But I am still going to attend and I am hoping for more "stover" involvement. Info item:  My work duties will put me in Mozambique from early July to mid October 2002, so I expect to be "local" for the conference and might be able to assist a few others (once I figure our myself the options at the Jo-burg conference. Paul At 01:49 AM 2/1/02 -0800, Kituyi, Evans wrote: Dear Stovers, I would appreciate comments on the attached 3page document on the future of energy for households in sub-Saharan Africa. Thanks Evans Kituyi Energy and the Road To Johannesburg Issues and Concerns for sub-Saharan African Households Evans Kituyi African Centre for Technology Studies, Nairobi, Kenya. E-mail: e.kituyi@cgiar.org Introduction Come September 2001, world governments will gather in Johannesburg, South Africa for the World Summit for Sustainable Development (WSSD), also dubbed the Rio+10 conference, and sustainable development will be the key phrase at the heart of the conference’s theme. The purpose of this summit will be to review the progress so far made by nations in implementing the Agenda 21, identify the key challenges faced in the implementation process, and to map out the way forward towards a sustainable future. One of the key reasons why sustainable development was not achieved in anticipated levels in sub-Saharan Africa over the past decade was the poor access to cleaner commercial energy by the majority of its population. It is imperative that most of the population gains access to this form of energy as a prerequisite for sustainable development. Unfortunately, the people in the region cannot achieve this on their own and must be assisted in various aspects by the international community. One appropriate forum where Africa could present its case is the WSSD, through the African Ministerial Statementwhich will be the official channel for bringing the continents concerns to world attention. In their recent preparatory committee meeting (PrepCom) for the Summit held in Nairobi, the African Ministers noted this general energy concern. However, their arguments tended to be biased, focusing more on RETs such as Solar PV, wind, and increased development of hydro, failing to explicitly recognize the role of biomassfrequently implied in the meetings as synonymous with technological backwardness. However, it is unlikely that a significant fraction of sub-Saharan African households will gain access to modern, cleaner forms of energy (mainly electricity for lighting and kerosene for cooking) as sustainable substitutes to fuelwood in the short or even medium terms. Most will continue depending almost exclusively on biomass. This situation is not strongly highlighted in the ministerial report and it is unlikely thatin its current stateit will elicit world attention on the energy poverty status of the region. Significant Increase in Access to Cleaner Commercial Energy is Unlikely Africa starts the 21st Century as the poorest, the most technologically backward, the most debt distressed, and the most marginalised region in the world. Drought, disease, civil conflict and poor governance make the situation worse. Consequently, Africans’ quality of life continued to erode over the last decade. In sub-Saharan Africa, 52% of people live on less than US$1 per day and urban poverty is increasingly severe, with about 43% of urban dwellers living below the poverty line of US$47 per month per capita. Opportunities for employment and household level income generating have diminishedhence the family savings to facilitate transition to modern energy are minimal. High urbanization ratemainly increasing the urban poor populationis putting more demand for charcoal, and by extension the forests and other biomass sources. Although the cost of renewable energy technologies (RETs) have fallen over the past decade, the magnitude of the drop has not been significant enough to compete kerosenethe commonly used liquid fossil fuel. Significant awareness of RETs has, however, been raised in many countries in Africa. It is therefore reasonable to infer that biomass (mainly firewood and charcoal) will remain the key sources of energy for most of the population in sub-Saharan Africa for several decades to come. This observation is shared by various institutions including the World Energy Council, the Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO), and the UNDP. Therefore little change, if any, will occur in as far as increasing the percentage of the population (both the rural and urban poor). Our pessimism in this regard is shared by the African Union which proposes a modest 25% increase in the number of households with access to cleaner commercial fuels by the year 2025 (from the current 10% to the projected 35%). This is part of the proposed objectives of the Union’s widely accepted pathway towards sustainable development, the New African Initiative (NAI). Despite these scenarios, the African Ministers give no special attention to biomass energy in their draft common position to the WSSD. One can therefore assume that it is generalized under renewable energy. That the majority of Africans will not have their livelihoods (in general and energy poverty in particular) improved is not good news for a continent in dire need of sustainable development. This concern deserves strong recognition by the world leaders meeting in Johannesburg in order to deliver special and focused responses towards energy poverty reduction in the region. Towards Sustainable Energy Biomass Energy Production and Use The realistic picture that emerges from the preamble implies further suffering by the majority (at least 65% of the population, using NAI’s projection as best case reference) of Africans as we enter the new millennium. Biomass will remain the major source of energy for rural populations, coupled with niche renewables such as Solar PV, provided they are affordable, reliable and a proper payments system is established. These sources themselves are under threat from overuse, creating additional environmental challenges. The increasing distances to the biomass sources in many regions and the number of households that are increasingly being conditioned to purchase their needs from markets, as well as the ever-increasing fuelwood costs demonstrate this. The message of this brief is that whereas efforts to promote access by all to modern commercial energy technologies must be encouraged, concurrent agendas should be in place for the sake of the majority who will not have the means to gain access to cleaner energy. For the short and medium terms, any sustainable development solutions in the household energy sub-sector in Africa must focus on biomass energy technology development and dissemination. This includes sustainable fuelwood production and its efficient consumption through adoption of improved energy technologies, with sustained efforts to eliminated barriers to access to commercial energy. Many opponents to this school of thought do exist, who argue that nothing but leapfrog by Africans to cleaner commercial energy should be promoted. Whereas this could be necessarily true, it is neither practical nor realistic on a short or medium term. It is from this realization that some institutions including the UNDP and the G8 have been proactive at offering solutions towards accelerated cost-efficient adoption of improved efficiency biomass conversion technologies. Others such as International Energy Agency, the Shell Foundation and the World Bank-ESMAP do finance studies aimed at identifying barriers to the large-scale adoption of existing biomass technology innovations. The objective is usually the attainment of environmentally sound and cost-competitive bioenergy on a sustainable basis to make a substantial contribution to meeting future energy demands. These institutions provide a framework upon which future work in the region may be built upon through appropriate institutional linkages with many indigenous organizations. Conclusion The energy poverty situation in Africa is serious and worsening, and the majority of the population will continue depending on biomass for many decades to come. The African Ministers recognize this well. Ironically, however, the energy section in their joint message to the WSSD is weak on this message, hence unlikely to trigger the world’s interest and attention, significant enough for the Summit to deliver a special deal on alleviating energy poverty on the continent. There is still a chance, however, for interested stakeholders to enrich the Ministerial Statement through submissions at subsequent preparatory meetings or during the Summit itself. An urgent regional roundtable on the plight of the majority of Africans that will still not gain access to commercial energy for many decades to come is therefore recommended to generate a number of balanced positions for presentation to the WSSD.  African Preparatory Conference for the World Summit on Sustainable Development, Nairobi, 18 October 2001.  ECA (2001) Transforming Africa’s Economies. Economic Report on Africa 2000, Economic Commission for Africa, 85p. Addis Ababa.  ECA (2001) Ibid.  WEO (2001) World Energy Outlook 2001. International Energy Agency, http://www.iea.org/  World Energy Council in its WEC Statement 2000.  Gustafson, D. (2001) The role of woodfuels in Africa, Food and Agriculture Organisation In Proceedings of the African High-Level Regional Meeting on Energy and Sustainable Development (N. Wamukonya, Ed.) 1013 January 2001, Nairobi, Kenya. pp 99101.  UNDP (2000) World Energy Assessment, UNDP/UNDESA/WEC.  WEC (2000) Energy for Tomorrow’s WorldActing Now! WEC Statement 2000. World Energy Council. 146p.  Statement by Dr Klaus Toepfer, Executive Director, UNEP at the African High Level Regional Meeting on Energy and Sustainable Development for CSD 9.  Gustafson, D. (2001) Op Cit.  Kituyi, E. et al. (2001) Biofuel consumption rates and patterns in Kenya, Biomass and Bioenergy 20:8399.  See various projects at UNDP Bioenergy page at http://www.undp.org/seed/eap/Projects/biomass.html  G8 Renewable Energy Task Force Report. Corrado Clini and Mark Moody-Stuart (Co-Chairmen) 2001. 61p.  See website on bioenergy at http://www.iea.org/impagr/imporg/iadesc/bioener.htm  See website at http://www.shellfoundation.org/ for details on project types. Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D.,  Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00 Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University Normal, IL  61790-4400   Voice:  309-438-7360;  FAX:  309-438-5310 E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders From CAVM at aol.com Fri Feb 1 05:57:17 2002 From: CAVM at aol.com (CAVM@aol.com) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:34 2004 Subject: Biomass and EnergySecurity in sub-Saharan Africa Message-ID: <6e.1712da57.298c150f@aol.com> << I would appreciate comments on the attached 3page document on the future of >energy for households in sub-Saharan Africa. Thanks > >Evans Kituyi Energy and the Road To Johannesburg Issues and Concerns for sub-Saharan African Households >> Evans, I imagine you know better than most that Kenya in particular creates its own problems. We cooperated on a project to harvest water weeds on Lake Victoria over the last two years in Kenya. Our project not only helped open the water ways for freight and fishing traffic but it reduced the incidence of pests harbored in the floating plant beds. My portion of the project was to anaerobically digest the harvested water weeds to produce electrical power. Fertilizer from the digesters would have been a byproduct. While the harvesting went on for several months we could not get the anaerobic digester approved. The government of Kenya stopped this project cold by gradual strangulation. We were funded by a UN project with World Bank funds so it cost them nothing. We could produce electrical power much below the $.15/kw paid to Uganda for their hydro power but the political system lacked the foresight to allow us to proceed. Endless permit requirements, all with substantial fees involved, and other ways of draining the funds quickly were employed. The short term benefit of getting the money away from us and to the government was more important that the electrical issues. So no project. Very sad. The president of Malawi has expressed an interest in cleaning up Lake Malawi so this same project could go forward there but our equipment was seized from the docks in Kenya so we start from scratch again. Very cheap electrical power with additional byproduct benefits were possible in Kenya. Not any more. Our research people also made recommendations regarding the Nile Perch processing facilities on Lake Victoria to process their fish waste into value added products rather than dump it back into the lake. No interest there either. We suggested briquetting of various biomass which might be underutilized or wasted now, no interest. Regarding another option, we can bring a 6 MW (net) fluidized bed combustion power plant on any site they choose for $800/kw capital cost. This plant can utilize virtually any combustible biomass for fuel and can change fuels quickly. It is a direct hot air turbine design which does not use a boiler or steam. Clean water could be produced from the substantial byproduct heat from this unit as a bonus to the electrical production. Much can be done. It is not a question of technology, not even of money. It is a question of politics. When the political environment changes so that the needs of the people are more important than the bellies of the leaders, we will still be here ready to go to work. Cornelius A. Van Milligen Kentucky Enrichment Inc. Project Managers CAVM@AOL.com - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/ http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/ http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml For information about CHAMBERS STOVES http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm From ronallarson at qwest.net Fri Feb 1 15:25:47 2002 From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:34 2004 Subject: Biomass and EnergySecurity in sub-Saharan Africa In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20020201090918.017dde50@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <00db01c1ab88$451b3f00$e7f66641@computer> Paul -  Thanks for keeping this theme alive.  I am very busy right now (organizing an April 7 local "renewables and efficiency fair") - so I apologize for having put in few comments recently..         I am still planning to attend Johannesburg.        For others who may be weighing the costs and benefits - I can say I have been to two similar.  1)  1981 UN renewable conference in Nairobi (I was an official US worker (my way was paid) - and saw lots of the inside workings), and 2) 1992 Rio  ( helped carry some boxes for a few days on behalf of the American Solar Energy Society - at my own expense).  On the basis of this limited experience, I can say I expect to have close to zero influence on the official workings, but to see a lot of great displays and dedicated people working on energy topics from all over the world.         This will be a madhouse, but I believe it can be fun - and it could be historical in epic proportions.  At last I can meet Crispin, Paul, Evans (I hope) and who else??  I'd appreciate more guidance on where and how to stay, meet, gather, etc.   Evans:  Great summary of the present problem.  I hope your paper will get into the official records.   Ron
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul S. Anderson To: Kituyi, Evans ; stoves@crest.org Cc: Apolinário J Malawene ; Bob and Karla Weldon ; Ed Francis ; Tsamba--Alberto Julio ; Lily Coyle Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 8:34 AM Subject: Re: Biomass and EnergySecurity in sub-Saharan Africa Stovers,                 From adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in Fri Feb 1 19:18:40 2002 From: adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in (A.D. Karve) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:34 2004 Subject: Biomass and EnergySecurity in sub-Saharan Africa Message-ID: <000001c1abac$716d5600$5652c5cb@adkarvepn2.vsnl.net.in> Dear Corneleus, the politicians and bureaucrats always act in their own interest, sometimes even acting like the Mafia. If the people benefit by any actions of theirs, it is purely a coincidence. That was the reason, why we chose to form our own non-government organisation to conduct rural developmental activities as we wished to conduct them. Last year, we also founded an industrial and commercial co-operative to commercialise the technologies developed by us. Since we deal directly with the people, we were able to succeed where the government failed. A recent example is that of the National Programme on Improved Cookstoves. Because it failed to achieve its objectives, the Government of India decided to terminate this programme with effect from April 1, 2002. But in our state, we persuaded village potters to copy our models of improved cookstoves and to propagate them on a commercial scale. As soon as the focus of this activity was shifted from being a government sponsored welfare activity to a commercial activity, it succeeded. Dr.A.D.Karve, President, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute Pune, India. -----Original Message----- From: CAVM@aol.com To: psanders@ilstu.edu ; E.KITUYI@cgiar.org ; stoves@crest.org Cc: ajmalawene01@hotmail.com ; BobKarlaWeldon@cs.com ; cfranc@ilstu.edu ; ajtsamba@zebra.uem.mz ; astrozen2000@hotmail.com Date: Friday, February 01, 2002 9:29 PM Subject: Re: Biomass and EnergySecurity in sub-Saharan Africa > ><< I would appreciate comments on the attached 3page document on the future of > >energy for households in sub-Saharan Africa. Thanks > > > >Evans Kituyi > > Energy and the Road To Johannesburg > Issues and Concerns for sub-Saharan African Households >> > > >Evans, I imagine you know better than most that Kenya in particular creates >its own problems. We cooperated on a project to harvest water weeds on Lake >Victoria over the last two years in Kenya. Our project not only helped open >the water ways for freight and fishing traffic but it reduced the incidence >of pests harbored in the floating plant beds. My portion of the project was >to anaerobically digest the harvested water weeds to produce electrical >power. Fertilizer from the digesters would have been a byproduct. While the >harvesting went on for several months we could not get the anaerobic digester >approved. > >The government of Kenya stopped this project cold by gradual strangulation. >We were funded by a UN project with World Bank funds so it cost them nothing. >We could produce electrical power much below the $.15/kw paid to Uganda for >their hydro power but the political system lacked the foresight to allow us >to proceed. Endless permit requirements, all with substantial fees involved, >and other ways of draining the funds quickly were employed. The short term >benefit of getting the money away from us and to the government was more >important that the electrical issues. So no project. Very sad. > >The president of Malawi has expressed an interest in cleaning up Lake Malawi >so this same project could go forward there but our equipment was seized from >the docks in Kenya so we start from scratch again. Very cheap electrical >power with additional byproduct benefits were possible in Kenya. Not any >more. > >Our research people also made recommendations regarding the Nile Perch >processing facilities on Lake Victoria to process their fish waste into value >added products rather than dump it back into the lake. No interest there >either. > >We suggested briquetting of various biomass which might be underutilized or >wasted now, no interest. > >Regarding another option, we can bring a 6 MW (net) fluidized bed combustion >power plant on any site they choose for $800/kw capital cost. This plant can >utilize virtually any combustible biomass for fuel and can change fuels >quickly. It is a direct hot air turbine design which does not use a boiler >or steam. Clean water could be produced from the substantial byproduct heat >from this unit as a bonus to the electrical production. > >Much can be done. It is not a question of technology, not even of money. It >is a question of politics. When the political environment changes so that >the needs of the people are more important than the bellies of the leaders, >we will still be here ready to go to work. > >Cornelius A. Van Milligen >Kentucky Enrichment Inc. >Project Managers >CAVM@AOL.com > >- >Stoves List Archives and Website: >http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/ >http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html > >Stoves List Moderators: >Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net >Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net >Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com > >List-Post: >List-Help: >List-Unsubscribe: >List-Subscribe: > >Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html >- >Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: >http://www.bioenergy2002.org >http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/ >http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml > >For information about CHAMBERS STOVES >http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm > > - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/ http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/ http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml For information about CHAMBERS STOVES http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm From Reedtb2 at cs.com Sat Feb 2 05:25:57 2002 From: Reedtb2 at cs.com (Reedtb2@cs.com) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:34 2004 Subject: Pics in files Message-ID: <47.1784006a.298d5f1a@cs.com> Thanks for doing Emailing Picture research. What is your conclusion.  Mine would be that a single picture or drawing (only worth 1000 words) would be OK if less than 100 kB.  But let's not extend mail download time needlessly for the folks who still have 56 kB/s lines (including me, very temporary). Your Juntos stove pics were 9 kB.  They were OK at original size, but definitely "pixelated" at  at 5X7 on my screen - enough so I couldn't quite see the parts.   I take a LOT of pictures taken with my old Olympus in the lowest resolution mode (typically 50-60 kB) and they are good enough to enlarge to 5X7 without showing their pixilated quality (for my wife, Vivian, at breakfast).  But definitely getting scruffy at 8X10.   I'm attaching a picture of our development model of the woodgas campstove gas flames.   According to windows explorer this one is 34 kB.   Anhone have problems with that? -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: jpg00655.jpg Type: application/octet-stream Size: 30895 bytes Desc: "Greasing the Wires,                   Tom Reed                             BEF STOVEWORKS " Url : http://listserv.repp.org/pipermail/stoves/attachments/20020202/821c35e9/jpg00655.obj From jerry5335 at yahoo.com Sat Feb 2 12:44:56 2002 From: jerry5335 at yahoo.com (jerry dycus) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:34 2004 Subject: GAS-L: Pics in files In-Reply-To: <47.1784006a.298d5f1a@cs.com> Message-ID: <20020202224622.15408.qmail@web14003.mail.yahoo.com> Hi Tom and All, Your first pic post came thru at 149k and the last one 45k and didn't even show the pics. Most of us are on the 56k modem and I like a lot of others are on online e-mail systems like yahoo that if a lot of these or a few larger ones they would max out my e-mail. A nice way to do it is put the graphfic online at one of the many free sites for that and just put the url on the list so those want can see them and not overload our e-mail systems. jerry dycus --- Reedtb2@cs.com wrote: > Dear Paul and Bob and all: > > Thanks for doing Emailing Picture research. > > What is your conclusion. Mine would be that a > single picture or drawing __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com - Gasification List Archives: http://www.crest.org/discussion/gasification/current/ Gasification List Moderator: Tom Reed, Biomass Energy Foundation, Reedtb2@cs.com www.webpan.com/BEF List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Gasification List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Gasification Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/ From ronallarson at qwest.net Sat Feb 2 14:23:56 2002 From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:34 2004 Subject: Fw: Invitation to participate in e-discussion on Environment and PovertyLinkages. Message-ID: <003f01c1ac49$0fe46160$bee56641@computer> Stovers (cc Rama Reddy): I can't remember how I got on this World Bank list, but it looks like few of the "stoves" list are presently on it. If Global Warming is on your personal policy agenda, you may wish to joint the following dialog which started today. I looked a few minutes ago and there were no messages yet - so I am going to answer the questions below as I show below - in order to try to escalate the Johannesburg dialog about support for starting an internationally-sponsored stoves improvement program. I wish I knew more about the details of the argument that the present protocols do not capture the GW problems posed by stoves. So, those "stoves" members who have been following this issue more closely will, I hope, also jump in on the details I allude to below. Ron ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; anjus126@hotmail.com ; esg@bgl.vsnl.net.in ; leeman@connexus.net.au ; jfw@jwager.demon.co.uk ; ajar@skyinet.net ; anupam@icimod.org.np ; andrew.spezowka@acdi-cida.gc.ca ; DSingh@wwfnet.org ; shirley@wilnetonline.net ; Mutshewa@mopipi.ub.bw ; irina@chbrd.chita.su ; jmiller@bluemarble.net ; aider@terra.com.pe ; vanberkr@resources.curtin.edu.au ; ishidak@ori.u-tokyo.ac.jp ; arjundha@yahoo.com ; wvarillas@amauta.rcp.net.pe ; Maxima1757@aol.com ; nalin_67@yahoo.com ; Ppetesch@worldbank.org ; robinw@wri.org ; ncsmtr@envmnt.sdnpk.undp.org ; jpgraham@flash.net ; equations1@vsnl.com ; gje@metaphasetech.com ; mmaccallum@earthlink.net ; lee.doran@sympatico.ca ; water2@siu.edu ; Fmanibog@worldbank.org ; info.wald@gmx.de ; ptume@moises.ucsc.cl ; bakirhp@nol.com.jo ; larcon@sni.net ; cfalk@nmsu.edu ; jmorales@cica.es ; hsear@students.wisc.edu ; bijukallukaran@usa.net ; c.inayatullah@undp.org ; 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m.bradley@student.murdoch.edu.au ; varma@plains.NoDak.edu ; cree@dowco.com ; sleubus@ibm.net ; rwall@acnatsci.org ; anjalimohan@yahoo.com ; LINSOR@um.dk ; docprt@hotmail.com ; ccameron@wgf.org ; mlarson@gmu.edu ; mnakarmi@mos.com.np ; geo341@abdn.ac.uk ; a_beye@yahoo.com ; acastillo@iiap.org.pe ; danf@austmus.gov.au ; tnmb@md5.vsnl.net.in ; dprieto@inta.gov.ar ; swjansen@xs4all.nl ; mmoran@tdigroup.com.ar ; richardjordan@mailcity.com ; r.daniels@qut.edu.au ; P karunaratne@worldbank.org ; klooster@Princeton.EDU ; JAVIERCU@iadb.org ; rkaushik@giasdl01.vsnl.NET.IN ; G.Fonseca@conservation.org ; scanavez@iqm.unicamp.br ; mcgihinn@stud.umist.ac.uk ; nicky@ima-g.ar.itb.ac.id ; benoit.granger@wanadoo.fr ; foxjones@csi.com ; tch120@psu.edu ; Ssrivastava@kanbay.com ; ellen.fennell@heifer.org ; RGeorge@aqmd.gov ; maxz@uclink4.berkeley.edu ; azminfn@sbu.ac.uk ; mwaddison@hotmail.com ; RACham@aol.com ; michaelm@pmail.net ; Lydda.Gaviria@fao.org Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2002 1:35 PM Subject: Invitation to participate in e-discussion on Environment and PovertyLinkages. Welcome to an electronic discussion: Linking Poverty Reduction and Environmental Management: Policy Challenges and Opportunities (February 1 - June 30, 2002) (Based on a consultation draft prepared by: Department for International Development, UK; Directorate General for Development, European Commission; United Nations Development Programme; and The World Bank) Linking Poverty Reduction and Environmental Management focuses on ways to reduce poverty and sustain growth through sound and equitable environmental management. It seeks to draw out the links between poverty and the environment, and to demonstrate that sound and equitable environmental management is a prerequisite for effective and sustained poverty reduction. The paper looks ahead with some degree of optimism for the future - there are sometimes win-win opportunities and there are rational ways of dealing with trade-offs. The paper provides evidence and emphasizes that: Poverty and the environment are closely linked The links between poverty and environment arise in terms of three vitally important dimensions of poverty reduction - livelihoods, health, and vulnerability. The poor are strongly dependent on natural resources for their livelihoods. A polluted environment, particularly unclean water and indoor air pollution, affects the poor adversely. The poor are particularly vulnerable to environmental stress and disasters such as droughts and floods. Policy opportunities exist to reduce poverty and improve the environment The paper argues that, in the search for solutions, there is a need to go beyond a narrow focus on 'environmental management' in order to tackle the root causes of degradation. There is also a need to go beyond the notion of the environment as a restriction on development, and realize the opportunities for poverty reduction that sound environmental management can provide. Areas for reform include: Improving governance, as a means to establish a more effective and 'pro-poor' policy and institutional environment. Anti-corruption measures are important as corruption can play a major role in the misuse of natural resources and weak enforcement of environmental regulations. Policy, legislative and regulatory processes need to ensure the effective participation of poor people; Protecting and expanding the asset base of the poor. Improving tenurial regimes can be a highly effective means of enhancing natural resource management. Women play key roles in managing natural resources and are particularly affected by environmental degradation. Strengthening resource rights for women is a vital area for reform. Expanded social protection, better access to climate information and measures to protect infrastructure and improve disaster preparedness can help to reduce the poor's exposure to environmental shocks. Paying attention to the quality of growth. Growth is a necessary but not sufficient condition for poverty reduction. Countries with very similar levels of income and growth can have quite different levels of environmental performance, depending on their economic and environmental policies Countries that degrade their environment heavily also risk inhibiting their future economic growth. Economic decisions need to integrate poverty-environment concerns and consider the full value of environmental goods and services. Reforming international policies on trade, investment, global public goods, and aid in order to better support developing country efforts to address poverty-environment concerns. Industrialized country subsidies that lead to unsustainable exploitation of resources need to be reformed. Better access for developing countries to markets in OECD countries can contribute considerably to poverty reduction. Environmental standards for trade can support sustainable development efforts in developing countries. In the context of global climate change, an effective international agreement on curbing greenhouse gas emissions and enhancing carbon sequestration is essential. **************************************************************************** ************************ This e-discussion solicits comments and suggestions on the paper. Your contributions may influence the final version of the paper which will be available at the WSSD. Contributions are encouraged on all aspects of the environment and poverty linkages covered in the draft. However, the authors specifically request participant contributions on the following two main themes of the paper: 1. Poverty-environment links: Do you agree that the major links have been captured? (RWL): 1. I gather that a more lengthy paper may exist, but did not find it at the World Bank web site - and would appreciate receiving a link to the full paper, if it exists. 2) The words "Indoor air quality" appear, but the word "stoves" does not. I recommend calling special attention to the great problems in almost all stoves used by the poor and opportunities offered by paying attention to stoves specifically - as perhaps the single most important problem that could be addressed at the WSSD. Have they been persuasively described and exemplified? (RWL): Certainly not in the summary material - hopefully so in a larger paper. Do you have other case studies, examples or references to offer? (RWL): The best summaries I have seen are from papers by Prof. Kirk Smith at the University of California - Berkeley, in reports for WHO. An excellent summary of these was prepared for COP-7 by Professor Dan Kammen and associates, also at UC-B. The "stoves" list (at www.crest.org) has recently had a policy paper submission on this topic prepared by Mr. Evans Kituyi of Kenya. I can forward these references (and others) if not now in the background papers for this dialog. 2. Policy responses: Do you agree with the policy proposals that are outlined in general in the paper? (RWL): Yes What additional ones would you suggest? (RWL): The stoves area can best be addressed through the last sentence which reads: "In the context of global climate change, an effective international agreement on curbing greenhouse gas emissions and enhancing carbon sequestration is essential." A major problem for calling attention to the GW aspects of stoves is that the criterion pollutants to be endorsed at WSSD do not include carbon monoxide (CO) - the most significant pollutant from almost all biomass-consuming cook and heating stoves. Other significant GW pollutants are also not included in the proposed protocols. Without this change there will be little justification for funds to be used in what is probably the single best low-cost way to address the GW issues of this electronic dialog. What further detail would you add to make the proposals more specific? (RWL): There should be additional analyses and replication of the successful (but now dormant) Chinese stove improvement program. I believe that the Indian government has both identified stoves as their most pressing health and povert reduction opportunity - and closed down their existing program. Much along these lines has been prepared by Professors Smith and Kammen - and much has been discussed on the "stoves" internet list at www.crest.org. Fortunately this opportunity has been recognized by the Shell Foundation (www.shellfoundation.org) with RFPs possibly to be released this month in the first major stove improvement program ever. **************************************************************************** ************************* 1. To join the discussion and set mail preferences go to: http://vx.worldbank.org/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=env-rio-10 2. If you do not have access to the internet then, to join the discussion, send a blank email to: env-rio-10@lists.worldbank.org You may subsequently indicate your mail preferences by sending an email to lyris@list.worldbank.org with the following command in the body of the message: set env-rio-10 digest (to receive one daily digest containing all the messages of the day) set env-rio-10 index (to receive one daily index of subject lines of the messages of the day) set env-rio-10 nomail (to receive no mail ? a good option if you are away or not going to access the email for a week or longer time) Thank you for your participation and we look forward to an interesting discussion. Please forward this email to persons who may be interested in participating in this electronic discussion. With best regards, Rama Reddy Rama Chandra Reddy Environment and Social Development Division Africa Region The World Bank Washington DC 20433 Tel: 202-458-4695 Email: rreddy1@worldbank.org ____________________________________________________________________________ __________ Apologies for multiple cross postings. We are trying to ensure wide partcipation in the electronic discussion - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/ http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/ http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml For information about CHAMBERS STOVES http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm From psanders at ilstu.edu Sun Feb 3 08:30:27 2002 From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:34 2004 Subject: The 2002/2/2 joke Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20020203121133.00c4ae60@mail.ilstu.edu> The 2002/2/2 joke:         At the national ballet company, the famous director of the ballerinas made a point of telling people that throughout her years as a dancer she had only reached the level of the understudy or second-in-line to the prima dona (the lead ballerina).  A few days ago she needed to schedule a practice session for the top two ballerinas promptly at two in the afternoon on the second of February 2002.  So she told her secretary to notify them to come a couple of minutes early, and to sign the message so they would know it came from the director.  This is what the secretary sent to both of the ballerinas: To Lead Ballerina:         Practice is scheduled for 1:58 PM on 2002/2/2. To tutu two, too:         Two to two, too.                             Tutu two, too ============= Notes   1.  This might be a world record for the most monosyllables in a row to make a coherent message. 2.  Start counting at the second 2 in 2002 and you will find sixteen (16) sounds of 2 or two or to or too or tu, as in tutu which is the classical dance dress of ballerinas. 3.  There are no proper names in this message.  If proper names were allowed, then we should name the second ballerina to be related to the family of Nobel Prize winner D. Tutu of South Africa. 4.  The twenty-second of February would give an extra digit of 2, but conventional speech would require us to say the word “twenty.”  Likewise, the year 2222 (which is only 220 years away) would not be pronounced like a series of two’s.         5.  The joke is in English and will not translate well.  However, perhaps in other languages other monosyllable repetitions could be ever longer. 6.  This is an original joke that I have been thinking about for years in off moments, but today’s date prompted me to type and send it.  The joke was not given to anyone prior to 2002/2/2.  7.  I just wonder how fast it might reach lots of people in this world linked by E-mail.  I am primarily sending it to people that I know and communicate with regularly, and they will be able to tell me when they start seeing the joke coming again to them but via totally different channels. 8.  Please feel free to pass it on by E-mail or put it in your newsletter’s joke page.  But please do NOT send me a reply.  I will wait for the joke to come back to me via natural circulations. Submitted by: Paul S. Anderson, of Normal, Illinois, USA Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D.,  Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00 Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University Normal, IL  61790-4400   Voice:  309-438-7360;  FAX:  309-438-5310 E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders From E.KITUYI at CGIAR.ORG Mon Feb 4 02:04:27 2002 From: E.KITUYI at CGIAR.ORG (Kituyi, Evans) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:34 2004 Subject: Biomass and EnergySecurity in sub-Saharan Africa Message-ID: Paul, thanks for your response--sorry you had to go through many steps to have it read. There are indeed many activities of interest to us that we could be involved in at J'burg. As Mathew Owens of Chardust pointed out to me today, many success stories in biomass conversion technologies exist that could be displayed. Of more importance (I guess) is designing appropriate policy advocacy strategies for J'burg and beyond since it is emerging that the difficulty in getting technologies across is mainly at the political level.   Is there already a side-event being set up on biomass/stoves with a view to discussing their role in sustainable development for the J'burg meeting? or Could stovers think about having one?   Evans -----Original Message-----From: Paul S. Anderson [mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu]Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 6:34 PMTo: Kituyi, Evans; stoves@crest.orgCc: Apolinario J Malawene; Bob and Karla Weldon; Ed Francis; Tsamba--Alberto Julio; Lily CoyleSubject: Re: Biomass and EnergySecurity in sub-Saharan AfricaStovers,We all worry about attachments.  I opened Evans' document without any evident problems (sometimes they come later, but my virus protection is recently up-dated).Anyway, I took the liberty to copy the document and insert it below inside this e-mail message.  Some format changes might make it look messy, the is my fault (and MicroSoft's) and not from Evans.Footnote numbers did NOT copy at all.If hard to read, you might want to do "select all" and then paste into Word (or other word processor) which will bring it back close to the pages structure intended.Content:  A quick look tells me that Evans has a very useful document that is important for understanding the fuel issues facing Africa south of the Sahara.I plan on being at the Jo-burg conference in early September, and Evans also, it seems.  We need to prepare ourselves, and Evans paper is a starting point.To Evans:  can you (and others) tell us more about activities of interest to us about stoves and fuels at the Jo-burg conference?   What opportunities are there for presentations, demonstration, participations?When I previously mentioned the conference, one of the few responses was from Tom R. who played down its importance as being more talk than action.  I can agree with Tom.  But I am still going to attend and I am hoping for more "stover" involvement.Info item:  My work duties will put me in Mozambique from early July to mid October 2002, so I expect to be "local" for the conference and might be able to assist a few others (once I figure our myself the options at the Jo-burg conference.PaulAt 01:49 AM 2/1/02 -0800, Kituyi, Evans wrote: Dear Stovers,I would appreciate comments on the attached 3page document on the future ofenergy for households in sub-Saharan Africa. ThanksEvans Kituyi Energy and the Road To Johannesburg Issues and Concerns for sub-Saharan African HouseholdsEvans KituyiAfrican Centre for Technology Studies, Nairobi, Kenya. E-mail: e.kituyi@cgiar.orgIntroductionCome September 2001, world governments will gather in Johannesburg, South Africa for the World Summit for Sustainable Development (WSSD), also dubbed the Rio+10 conference, and sustainable development will be the key phrase at the heart of the conference's theme. The purpose of this summit will be to review the progress so far made by nations in implementing the Agenda 21, identify the key challenges faced in the implementation process, and to map out the way forward towards a sustainable future. One of the key reasons why sustainable development was not achieved in anticipated levels in sub-Saharan Africa over the past decade was the poor access to cleaner commercial energy by the majority of its population. It is imperative that most of the population gains access to this form of energy as a prerequisite for sustainable development. Unfortunately, the people in the region cannot achieve this on their own and must be assisted in various aspects by the international community. One appropriate forum where Africa could present its case is the WSSD, through the African Ministerial Statementwhich will be the official channel for bringing the continents concerns to world attention. In their recent preparatory committee meeting (PrepCom) for the Summit held in Nairobi, the African Ministers noted this general energy concern. However, their arguments tended to be biased, focusing more on RETs such as Solar PV, wind, and increased development of hydro, failing to explicitly recognize the role of biomassfrequently implied in the meetings as synonymous with technological backwardness. However, it is unlikely that a significant fraction of sub-Saharan African households will gain access to modern, cleaner forms of energy (mainly electricity for lighting and kerosene for cooking) as sustainable substitutes to fuelwood in the short or even medium terms. Most will continue depending almost exclusively on biomass. This situation is not strongly highlighted in the ministerial report and it is unlikely thatin its current stateit will elicit world attention on the energy poverty status of the region. Significant Increase in Access to Cleaner Commercial Energy is UnlikelyAfrica starts the 21st Century as the poorest, the most technologically backward, the most debt distressed, and the most marginalised region in the world. Drought, disease, civil conflict and poor governance make the situation worse. Consequently, Africans' quality of life continued to erode over the last decade. In sub-Saharan Africa, 52% of people live on less than US$1 per day and urban poverty is increasingly severe, with about 43% of urban dwellers living below the poverty line of US$47 per month per capita. Opportunities for employment and household level income generating have diminishedhence the family savings to facilitate transition to modern energy are minimal.High urbanization ratemainly increasing the urban poor populationis putting more demand for charcoal, and by extension the forests and other biomass sources. Although the cost of renewable energy technologies (RETs) have fallen over the past decade, the magnitude of the drop has not been significant enough to compete kerosenethe commonly used liquid fossil fuel. Significant awareness of RETs has, however, been raised in many countries in Africa. It is therefore reasonable to infer that biomass (mainly firewood and charcoal) will remain the key sources of energy for most of the population in sub-Saharan Africa for several decades to come. This observation is shared by various institutions including the World Energy Council, the Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO), and the UNDP. Therefore little change, if any, will occur in as far as increasing the percentage of the population (both the rural and urban poor). Our pessimism in this regard is shared by the African Union which proposes a modest 25% increase in the number of households with access to cleaner commercial fuels by the year 2025 (from the current 10% to the projected 35%). This is part of the proposed objectives of the Union's widely accepted pathway towards sustainable development, the New African Initiative (NAI). Despite these scenarios, the African Ministers give no special attention to biomass energy in their draft common position to the WSSD. One can therefore assume that it is generalized under renewable energy. That the majority of Africans will not have their livelihoods (in general and energy poverty in particular) improved is not good news for a continent in dire need of sustainable development. This concern deserves strong recognition by the world leaders meeting in Johannesburg in order to deliver special and focused responses towards energy poverty reduction in the region.Towards Sustainable Energy Biomass Energy Production and UseThe realistic picture that emerges from the preamble implies further suffering by the majority (at least 65% of the population, using NAI's projection as best case reference) of Africans as we enter the new millennium. Biomass will remain the major source of energy for rural populations, coupled with niche renewables such as Solar PV, provided they are affordable, reliable and a proper payments system is established. These sources themselves are under threat from overuse, creating additional environmental challenges. The increasing distances to the biomass sources in many regions and the number of households that are increasingly being conditioned to purchase their needs from markets, as well as the ever-increasing fuelwood costs demonstrate this.The message of this brief is that whereas efforts to promote access by all to modern commercial energy technologies must be encouraged, concurrent agendas should be in place for the sake of the majority who will not have the means to gain access to cleaner energy. For the short and medium terms, any sustainable development solutions in the household energy sub-sector in Africa must focus on biomass energy technology development and dissemination. This includes sustainable fuelwood production and its efficient consumption through adoption of improved energy technologies, with sustained efforts to eliminated barriers to access to commercial energy. Many opponents to this school of thought do exist, who argue that nothing but leapfrog by Africans to cleaner commercial energy should be promoted. Whereas this could be necessarily true, it is neither practical nor realistic on a short or medium term. It is from this realization that some institutions including the UNDP and the G8 have been proactive at offering solutions towards accelerated cost-efficient adoption of improved efficiency biomass conversion technologies. Others such as International Energy Agency, the Shell Foundation and the World Bank-ESMAP do finance studies aimed at identifying barriers to the large-scale adoption of existing biomass technology innovations. The objective is usually the attainment of environmentally sound and cost-competitive bioenergy on a sustainable basis to make a substantial contribution to meeting future energy demands. These institutions provide a framework upon which future work in the region may be built upon through appropriate institutional linkages with many indigenous organizations. ConclusionThe energy poverty situation in Africa is serious and worsening, and the majority of the population will continue depending on biomass for many decades to come. The African Ministers recognize this well. Ironically, however, the energy section in their joint message to the WSSD is weak on this message, hence unlikely to trigger the world's interest and attention, significant enough for the Summit to deliver a special deal on alleviating energy poverty on the continent. There is still a chance, however, for interested stakeholders to enrich the Ministerial Statement through submissions at subsequent preparatory meetings or during the Summit itself. An urgent regional roundtable on the plight of the majority of Africans that will still not gain access to commercial energy for many decades to come is therefore recommended to generate a number of balanced positions for presentation to the WSSD. African Preparatory Conference for the World Summit on Sustainable Development, Nairobi, 18 October 2001.  ECA (2001) Transforming Africa's Economies. Economic Report on Africa 2000, Economic Commission for Africa, 85p. Addis Ababa.  ECA (2001) Ibid. WEO (2001) World Energy Outlook 2001. International Energy Agency, http://www.iea.org/ World Energy Council in its WEC Statement 2000. Gustafson, D. (2001) The role of woodfuels in Africa, Food and Agriculture Organisation In Proceedings of the African High-Level Regional Meeting on Energy and Sustainable Development (N. Wamukonya, Ed.) 1013 January 2001, Nairobi, Kenya. pp 99101. UNDP (2000) World Energy Assessment, UNDP/UNDESA/WEC.  WEC (2000) Energy for Tomorrow's WorldActing Now! WEC Statement 2000. World Energy Council. 146p. Statement by Dr Klaus Toepfer, Executive Director, UNEP at the African High Level Regional Meeting on Energy and Sustainable Development for CSD 9. Gustafson, D. (2001) Op Cit. Kituyi, E. et al. (2001) Biofuel consumption rates and patterns in Kenya, Biomass and Bioenergy 20:8399. See various projects at UNDP Bioenergy page at http://www.undp.org/seed/eap/Projects/biomass.html  G8 Renewable Energy Task Force Report. Corrado Clini and Mark Moody-Stuart (Co-Chairmen) 2001. 61p. See website on bioenergy at http://www.iea.org/impagr/imporg/iadesc/bioener.htm  See website at http://www.shellfoundation.org/ for details on project types. Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D.,  Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00 Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University Normal, IL  61790-4400   Voice:  309-438-7360;  FAX:  309-438-5310E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/ http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/ http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml For information about CHAMBERS STOVES http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm From JEFF.FORSSELL at ssvh.se Mon Feb 4 05:37:42 2002 From: JEFF.FORSSELL at ssvh.se (Jeff Forssell) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:34 2004 Subject: more about pictures Message-ID: I have often felt like there should be more simple drawings of how things are done in the list. Basic guidelines for compact pictures: Use GIF for drawings. JPEG for photos (use some compression). See to it that the size in pixels is not bigger than 400*400 unless there are important details that would be lost. Most drawing programs can resize pictures. A picture of a table of values is better that nothing, but should as soon as possible be replaced with a readable file (HTML, text, XLS). They are much more compact, searchable, easily imported into documents, spread sheets. A person with an OCR program can usually transform a scanned picture (of text) into a text quite quickly. When using pictures in homepages try to always have an: ALT="closeup of Junta stove chimney" >; in the is a picture of a table of values. The size is 82 kb By simply cropping it slightly and saving as a GIF file (because it contains few colors (2!) and large fields of single colors) It becomes only 28 kb and if "interlaced" you can see it roughly even though it has not downloaded fully. <> If it were in some formatted text it might be down to 2 kb (guess) Jeff Forssell (två s) Centrum för Flexibelt Lärande (CFL, fd SSVH) "Center for Flexible Learning" Box 3024 SE-871 03 HÄRNÖSAND /Sweden +46(0)611-55 79 48 (Work) +46(0)611-55 79 80 (Fax Work) +46(0)611-22 1 44 (Home) (070- 35 80 306; 070-4091514 mobil) Gamla Karlebyvägen 14 / 871 33 Härnösand e-mail: every workday: jf@ssvh.se (travel, visiting: jeff_forssell@hotmail.com & MSMessenger) Personal homepage: http://www.torget.se/users/i/iluhya/index.htm My village technology page: http://home.bip.net/jeff.forssell Instant messengers Odigo 792701 (Yahoo: jeff_forssell, ICQ: 55800587) Chimdr.gif - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/ http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/ http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml For information about CHAMBERS STOVES -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: gif00281.gif Type: application/octet-stream Size: 28117 bytes Desc: "http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm" Url : http://listserv.repp.org/pipermail/stoves/attachments/20020204/f38aa369/gif00281.obj From Reedtb2 at cs.com Mon Feb 4 05:54:28 2002 From: Reedtb2 at cs.com (Reedtb2@cs.com) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:35 2004 Subject: Pellet Stove Principles... (also Junto?) Message-ID: <15c.7e16764.299008dd@cs.com> Your response underlines the observation that we need to get together in a laboratory sense and observe all of this.  Experiments by mail just don't cut it. We need to put our heads together in an experimental week at a workshop to build an even better stove for the next day's run.  That would be a terrific week, but where?  My house/lab/shop is available to anyone in the Denver area, possibly Aprovecho for a week,  and ???   Alex English stopped here a few years ago and things haven't been the same sense.  I am now adding welding, spot welding, bending breaking and rolling to our manufacturing capabilities here.  (Ken Goyen took me to Harbor Freight in Eugene and showed me his combination shear/brake/roll for under $300.  That's within even my budget.) So be sure to try to make a few days together for us this year here in Denver and if I get to Illinois I'll drop in on the Anderson/Weldon group. Yours truly,                      TOM REED Dear Dean, Paul and All: "Starting a fire above a fire" is certainly a good idea, but will require more air and more control, depending on the nature of the first fire.    Tom, I respond about "the nature of the first fire". I light the gasification unit first, and it is in the lower position. It burns with a steady, moderate combustion that is altered in the following ways:      a.  I can cut back on the primary air and thereby slow the pyrolyic gasification of the base fuel to try to slow the flaming of the gasses at the top of the gasifier.      b.  I currently do not attempt to reduce the secondary air into the top of the gasifier.      c.  The second fire (Rocket) above will increase the drawing of air at all three levels:                 1.  Primary air via air-pipe to gasifier fuel                 2.  Secondary air to then burn those gasses in the upper part of the gasifier                 3.  All air (primary and secondary) into the Rocket area for combustion of the fuel there.      d.  The amount of air into the Rocket area is not controlled (yet) by me, but could be controlled via:                1.  tighter fit between the gasifier and the Rocket.                2.  air entry via the side-load hole on the Rocket, that could be partially closed with a door or other control. But if too tight a fit, the draw via the secondary air of the gasifier might increase too much, or even pull extra primary air via the air pipe, which would accelerate the fire. So Tom, what do I want to strive for? Also, I have a hunch that well heated secondary air IS a good feature, but heating of primary air is of little consequence. Paul Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D.,  Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00 Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University Normal, IL  61790-4400   Voice:  309-438-7360;  FAX:  309-438-5310 E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders From JEFF.FORSSELL at ssvh.se Mon Feb 4 05:55:47 2002 From: JEFF.FORSSELL at ssvh.se (Jeff Forssell) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:35 2004 Subject: Please criticize this plan for a Rocket elbow type stove Message-ID: Last time I visited my wife's parents in Rwanda I made a 3 pot stove with chimney that worked pretty well (in spite of being of the massive type). It will be interesting to see if it is still being used. (Description of that one can be seen on my website) After that I tried to search the net to see what the state-of-the-art was among those working with it. (I'm just an enthusiastic amateur, though I have lived about 15 years without mains electricity and done most cooking and heating then on wood stoves.) That's when I found the stoves list. Though I don't have time to read everything that comes from the list, I have gleaned a number of impressions that I hope to find a chance to try out when we go down to them again in March. (Imagine what they could do with the money the trip costs! But they want to see us too). I am including a GIF drawing of what I hope to make. I would like to use a Rocket Elbow preferably made with a porous material (clay, cement, sawdust ) (though I wonder if I will be able to find any high temp clay for the mixture that was recommended). Questions I have about the Rocket: The nice descriptive page: http://www.efn.org/~apro/atrocketpage.html stills leaves me with some questions. In the photos there is no draft regulator. But in the drawings there is a "door" floating from above over the intake. Is there any best way of controlling the power? I would think just diminishing the amount of sticks would lead to too much cooling air and increase the attention necessary by the cook. I would usually strangle the input air for low power simmering. One problem is what one does with long sticks that are in the way. I thought maybe one could work at the other end: Have a small or wider gap between the pot and stove top. I also am not sure of dimensioning questions: would there be anything wrong with having the horizontal pipe slightly larger than the vertical one (inner diam of horiz. = outer diameter of vertical)? I was thinking of making them as two pieces and the vertical pipe would be put into a hole in the side of the horizontal one. The metal plate under the firewood is supposed to let in air and preheat it some: How far in should it extend? In the picture is seems to end at the Beginning of vertical pipe. If the plate is to capture heat to preheat the input air I would think it might be best to continue in under the flames some, nad perhaps have perforations. I've made a attached sketch (GIF only 11 kb) of what it could look like. 1. top view of pot support ring with possible spiral ridges to increase turbulence 2. high ridge pot support ring for high power (greater air flow) 3. low ridge pot support ring for low power (restricted air flow, increased pot contact) 4. low ridge wok-type pot support ring 5. containment box for insulating and supporting Rocket Elbow (filled with wood ash) 6. vertical tube for elbow 7. horizontal tub with cutout for vertical tube 8. sloping front side to allow simply laying a baffle against it to control inlet air or help maintain heat for easy lighting, tinder drying 9. metal piece under fuel (flattened tin can?) extending under fire with holes 10. end view from feeding end of elbow 11. shield around: 12. most common type of pot The family uses MANY sizes of cylindrical spun aluminum pots. I would probably try to make at least one shield for the most often used size to keep hot gases along the sides of the pot. Jeff Forssell (två s) Centrum för Flexibelt Lärande (CFL, fd SSVH) "Center for Flexible Learning" Box 3024 SE-871 03 HÄRNÖSAND /Sweden +46(0)611-55 79 48 (Work) +46(0)611-55 79 80 (Fax Work) +46(0)611-22 1 44 (Home) (070- 35 80 306; 070-4091514 mobil) Gamla Karlebyvägen 14 / 871 33 Härnösand e-mail: every workday: jf@ssvh.se (travel, visiting: jeff_forssell@hotmail.com & MSMessenger) Personal homepage: http://www.torget.se/users/i/iluhya/index.htm My village technology page: http://home.bip.net/jeff.forssell Instant messengers Odigo 792701 (Yahoo: jeff_forssell, ICQ: 55800587) - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/ http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/ http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml For information about CHAMBERS STOVES http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm From JEFF.FORSSELL at ssvh.se Mon Feb 4 05:59:54 2002 From: JEFF.FORSSELL at ssvh.se (Jeff Forssell) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:35 2004 Subject: SV: Please criticize this plan for a Rocket elbow type stove; (Missing picture) Message-ID: <> somehow the picture got left out. Sorry Jeff Forssell rocketStoveJf.gif - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/ http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/ http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml For information about CHAMBERS STOVES -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: gif00282.gif Type: application/octet-stream Size: 11175 bytes Desc: "http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm" Url : http://listserv.repp.org/pipermail/stoves/attachments/20020204/3054619c/gif00282.obj From psanders at ilstu.edu Mon Feb 4 09:10:20 2002 From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:35 2004 Subject: Asia Regional Cookstove Program-Planning Technical Advisory Meeting In-Reply-To: <0GQZ007LPM1U4R@egraine.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20020204125625.01b43bd0@mail.ilstu.edu> Stovers, The message below has good info about ARECOP I opened and copied the two attachments.  (some formating loss, maybe, but we seem to prefer no attachments.) Apart from the lead given by AD Karve last week, this is the first info I have about this wonderful organization.  It seems that ONE of their ARECOP members is on the Stoves list serve (Hello to Erwan).   Erwan, we would like to hear more from you. How many other organizations (or active individuals) are out there and we do not know of them?  We REALLY do need to get our network more clearly identified. For example, I have my own mini-list of extra people to whom I send selected Stoves messages.  The list includes some Rotarian friends in Illinois and a couple of contacts in Mozambique.  If I hear anything from them that needs passing, I pass it on to the Stoves list. Please note that China is NOT on the list of countries listed in Christina's message.  We need a "China watcher" even if the person is not in China.  Just an example. Enjoy the info below. Paul At 09:34 AM 2/4/02 +0700, Christina A wrote: Dear Mr. Anderson, Thank you for writing. We, ARECOP has also been actively involved in the stove list and we find it very informative and also help us getting a lot of information on cook stove development and also new research activities in the field of improved cook stove. My colleague Erwan is actually the one active in the stove list. You must have known that ARECOP is a Asia regional cook stove program, a network covering 12 countries in Asia but focusing its activities mainly in 7 countries meaning to say that ARECOP established 7 national network in the 7 countries in partnership with local NGO that has been involved in ICS. Those countries are Indonesia, Philippines, Nepal, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Cambodia, and Vietnam. As a regional network secretariat, ARECOP try to get as much inputs as possible for its activities and this is accomodate through the Planning Technical Advisory (PTA) meeting that we held every two years. In this meeting we usually invite our most active members and partners in the region as well as potential organizations that are of similar activities to see how we can synergize our resources for the benefit of the advancement of improved cookstove program and how the program can benefit the needy ones. The meeting that we are going to have in Nepal is the second of our phase 2 that starts in Dec 1999. The first PTA meeting was held in Bangkok in June 2000. We appreciate that you and those in the stove list are interested in our meeting and we certainly welcome your participation as we are sure that your participation in the meeting will enrich ARECOP and its network in terms of knowledge as well as experiences that will eventually enahnce and improve our regional as well as respective national activities. Unfortunately, our resources for the meeting is very limited that we can only provide support for a number of our members. DEspite of our limitation, of course we very much expect as many partners as possible to participate in our regional planning meeting. Herewith I enclosed on attachment the TOR and invitation to ARECOP second regional PTA meeting. Thank you for your cooperation and kind attention. Sincerely, Christina Aristanti ARECOP manager The following section of this message contains a file attachment prepared for transmission using the Internet MIME message format. If you are using Pegasus Mail, or any another MIME-compliant system, you should be able to save it or view it from within your mailer. If you cannot, please ask your system administrator for assistance. Terms of Reference ARECOP Phase 2 Second Planning-Technical-Advisory Meeting As a regional network, ARECOP put high priority to the needs of the region and this can only happen with continuous and consistent input from the network members and ARECOP partners and this is done through Planning Technical Advisory (PTA) Meetings. The purpose of PTA meetings are multiple, but generally they serve as a concrete means and opportunity for the ARECOP secretariat and the leading ARECOP network organizations and partners to meet, discuss the needs and development of improved cookstove program in the region,  and to create concrete objectives and plans for the future of the network and for the benefit of Improved Cookstove Program (ICP) development in the region. PTA meetings are one way that we can make sure that the directions of improved cookstove programs and ARECOP activities are determined cooperatively by the network members. The Asia Regional Cookstove Program (ARECOP) has started being active again since December 1999. It was earmarked by the Planning Technical Advisory (PTA) meeting held in Bangkok, Thailand in July 2000. The first PTA meeting of ARECOP phase 2 was attended by ARECOP partners in the region such as RWEDP, PDI, etc, and most active ARECOP network members and Representatives of the Country Contact Points (CCPs). During the fist PTA meeting, the following are recommended : 1.      Information ·       ARECOP should solicit, compile and disseminate information on ICSP a)      Basic information on ICP b)      Development, implementation and evaluation of  ICSP in new member countries c)      Health related and environmental concerns/benefits d)      Economic benefits e)      Simplified M&E tool f)      Gender g)      Techniques, approaches, technologies (designs and models) ·       Strengthen ICS information center ·       Document and Publish best practices ·       Create a database of experts in member countries ·       Support CCPs in the production of publications (newsletter, translation works, case studies etc) 2.      Donor/funding /Resource ·       For resource allocation, ARECOP should : a)      Match resources with programs/activities b)      Share information about different international resources and donors c)      Facilitate the integration of ICSP in other development programs ARECOP should also : ·       Organize a donor forum ·       Facilitate a dialog between donors and ARECOP members ·       Lobby among international donors and regional donors to give financial support to national ICSP ·       Provide back up support for development of good proposal 3.      Monitoring & Evaluation (M&E) ·       On tools and guidelines in M&E, ARECOP should : a)      develop general/standard guideline/manual on M&E which can be adapted by member countries b)      conduct a regional workshop on standard M&E indicators for ICSP 4.      Addressing common regional issues ·       Regarding health issues, ARECOP should facilitate the linkage of national health studies with international research agencies ·       Regarding climate change, ARECOP should assist member countries to get access to information/know how (e.g. on Clean Development Mechanism) and link members to resources that will enhance funding for climate change research and prevention. ·       Provide training ·       Facilitate ICS program related to environment and health ·Provide guidelines, document regional experiences (from member countries) and organize training for integration of various issues (health, gender ,climate) into ICSP 5.      Capacity building ARECOP should: ·       Conduct training/seminar/workshop/  and facilitate exchange of expertise, through these means: a)      Organizing a regional training, follow up national programs (technical and systematic sharing of expertise) b)      Support CCPs in organizing training/workshop/seminar c)      Provide training on technical and programmatic skills and support exchange of experts d)      Organizing a follow up training-workshop of TOT which was held in Lombok to share countries’ experiences on national training and undertake follow up programs e)      ARECOP can appoint experts from the data base according to needs expressed by member countries ·       facilitate transfer of technologies/disseminate various technologies among partners ·       support the establishment of ICS testing center a)      to facilitate development of new design in participatory way b)      to develop capacity of local experts/ producers  ·       support CCP to undertake innovative programs ·       support CCP in undertaking research / studies 6.      Networking ·       Institutional cooperation (national, regional and international) ·       Strengthening Networking on ICSP (expanding membership) ·       Help establish national network center on ICS and facilitate exchange of information through various media 7.      Vision ·       Start thinking beyond 2003 After almost two years of its operation, ARECOP Secretariat and the network may have been able to fulfill some of the recommendations but not all. Therefore, it is high time to have the second PTA meeting in this phase 2 so that the network will have the chance to share experiences and ICS development in the various regions especially with the establishment of the national network as well as to see and monitor the progress of ICSP in the region. Thus, if there is anything lacking, need some changes or additional activities important to be conducted to address the region needs,  ARECOP members together with the secretariat may have the opportunity to do so. The objectives of this PTA meeting are as follows: ·       To provide the network members with an update on the status and directions of ARECOP as well as the outcome of the previous years. ·       To provide the network members with an update on the status of ICP in each of ARECOP member countries represented, especially the focused countries. ·       To discuss on ARECOP vision and direction for ICP and its plan of activities to match to ICP development trend in the region. The participants of the PTA meeting will be leading NGOs in the country involved in ICPs that will be identified by the ARECOP secretariat in consultation with ARECOP partners and CCP and, ARECOP partners in the region government and non-government. Representatives are expected to come from ARECOP active member countries namely : Indonesia, Thailand, Philippines, Cambodia, Vietnam, Laos, Bangladesh, Nepal and Sri Lanka. In addition, ARECOP also invite partners in the region such as ENERGIA, VECP, ICIMOD, PDI,  CFSP, Approtech Asia, and other international organizations. PTA meeting Venue F       The second PTA meeting of ARECOP phase 2 will be held at Dhulikel Lodge at Dhulikel, Nepal tentatively from 13  16 March 2002 F       CRT, ARECOP CCP Nepal will host the PTA meeting. F       Further detail of the venue will be informed once participants are confirmed ****************** Dear Stovers, Subject : Invitation to ARECOP PTA meeting 2002 ARECOP has been active in the past two years. In these two years many activities have been conducted in the region, especially in the 7 focus countries where national programs have been established. It is therefore a high time for us to review the progress of Improved Cookstove Program in our region and at the same time to look at the latest development in Asia and in the world that may influence as well as affected ICS program development especially in the Asia region. We also need to see what still need to be done and to plan together the future of ARECOP. ARECOP as a forum of organizations involved in ICP always emphasize the importance of full participation of its members in order to assist the secretariat to define approach and strategies as well as activities to suit the needs and development of ICP in the network region. It is in this regard that ARECOP secretariat would like to invite you to participate in the Planning-Technical-Advisory-Meeting to be held in Dhulikel, Nepal. The meeting will be held :          Dates   : March 13  16, 2002         Venue   : Dhulikhel Lodge Resort                   Dhulikhel, Nepal                   Phone : 011  61114, 61494 For your information enclosed please find the TOR of the PTA meeting. The ARECOP Secretariat really wish that you can participate in the PTA meeting as your knowledge and experience will be valuable inputs for the Secretariat and for the Network. As March is approaching soon and we need to make necessary administrative arrangement and logistic, please notify at your earliest convenient whether you will be able to participate in the PTA meeting by filling in the form and return it to the Secretariat either by e-mail (arecop@yogya.wasantara.net.id or arecop@ydd.org) or by fax : 62-274-885423. Looking forward to hearing from you and thank you for your attention and cooperation Sincerely, Christina Aristanti ARECOP, Manager ARECOP PHASE 2 SECOND PLANNING-TECHNICAL-ADVISORY MEETING March 13 - 16 Dhulikhel, Nepal Name            : ……………………………………………………………. Organization    : ……………………………………………………………. Address : …………………………………………………………….                   …………………………………………………………….                   ……………………………………………………………. Phone           : ……………………………………………………………. Fax             : ……………………………………………………………. E-mail          : ……………………………………………………………. Please choose by putting a tick in the box q       Please book me at Dhulikhel Lodge Resort at (single/double)* room q       No, I will arrange my own accommodation Special food preference q       Vegetarian q       Muslim food q       none Sincerely, …………………….    ---- File information -----------      File: tor-pta2.doc      Date:  9 Jan 2002, 16:05      Size:  45568 bytes.      Type:  Unknown The following section of this message contains a file attachment prepared for transmission using the Internet MIME message format. If you are using Pegasus Mail, or any another MIME-compliant system, you should be able to save it or view it from within your mailer. If you cannot, please ask your system administrator for assistance.    ---- File information -----------      File: invitation.doc      Date:  2 Feb 2002, 11:59      Size:  35840 bytes.      Type:  Unknown Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D.,  Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00 Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University Normal, IL  61790-4400   Voice:  309-438-7360;  FAX:  309-438-5310 E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders From ronallarson at qwest.net Mon Feb 4 09:50:33 2002 From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:35 2004 Subject: Fw: [env-rio-10] Increasing attention to stoves Message-ID: <004601c1adb5$bae76fe0$70f76641@computer> Stovers: My Saturday World Bank "Rio+10" message to "stoves" went out today from the World Bank moderator, where Mr. Reddy's first part answered my question about finding the full paper (http://wbweb4.worldbank.org/nars/eworkspace/ews004/mydevforum1.asp) . I haven't read it yet, but it is 58 pages long. The URL is also below. As I quoted on Saturday: '1. To join the discussion and set mail preferences go to: http://vx.worldbank.org/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=env-rio-10" Ron ----- Original Message ----- From: Ronal W. Larson To: Linking Poverty Reduction and Environmental and opportunities Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2002 5:22 PM Subject: [env-rio-10] Increasing attention to stoves > Moderator (RReddy): A full text of the paper may be accessed under > the Background paper at the following URL:- > > http://wbweb4.worldbank.org/nars/eworkspace/ews004/mydevforum1.asp > > --------------------------------- > > 1. Poverty-environment links: Do you agree that the major links have > been captured? > (RWL): 1. I gather that a more lengthy paper may exist, but did not find - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/ http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/ http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml For information about CHAMBERS STOVES http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm From psanders at ilstu.edu Mon Feb 4 09:58:23 2002 From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:35 2004 Subject: Biomass and EnergySecurity in sub-Saharan Africa Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20020204134835.00c491f0@mail.ilstu.edu> Dear Evans, When I attended the Rio conference in 1992, I noticed 3 levels of activity (at least).  One is the political bigwigs.  Second is the Fair-like setting with booths by NGOs and others with displays of projects, etc..  The Third was a whole array of what I will call "Related Conferences" about specific topics, including academic presentations and panels and resolutions, etc.  I attended and presented at one of them (on remote sensing) and the program was finalized only a month or 2 ahead of the event.  There was a "sponsor" (or more than one) that set up the one or two day meeting.  We are still seven (7) months ahead of the Jo-burg World Conference dates which are 2 through 11 September 2002. I know of NO such initiative for stoves or biomass, but I would think that such a meeting would be HIGHLY APPROPRIATE.  Therefore, I call on all Stovers everywhere to think of who and how we could get something going (or find a "like-minded" group that is already part-way there to having a venue and program.)   I am reminded that the biomass conference for this past September was cancelled and was never held.  I look to Ron for some leadership in this, but many others also know the players to have something happen.  The Jo-burg Conference is a REAL media event !!!!!! Currently, we have Ron and Evans and Paul all planning to attend.  I know that I will have some major "Juntos Stove" stuff to show by then (but I will not be holding it back from the Stoves list until then.) WHO will come from ARECOP?  How could southern Asia NOT have someone there about stoves and biomass?  And who from Europe, and ............. As ever, Paul At 04:07 AM 2/4/02 -0800, Kituyi, Evans wrote: Paul, thanks for your response--sorry you had to go through many steps to have it read. There are indeed many activities of interest to us that we could be involved in at J'burg. As Mathew Owens of Chardust pointed out to me today, many success stories in biomass conversion technologies exist that could be displayed. Of more importance (I guess) is designing appropriate policy advocacy strategies for J'burg and beyond since it is emerging that the difficulty in getting technologies across is mainly at the political level.   Is there already a side-event being set up on biomass/stoves with a view to discussing their role in sustainable development for the J'burg meeting? or Could stovers think about having one?   Evans -----Original Message----- From: Paul S. Anderson [mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu] Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 6:34 PM To: Kituyi, Evans; stoves@crest.org Cc: Apolinario J Malawene; Bob and Karla Weldon; Ed Francis; Tsamba--Alberto Julio; Lily Coyle Subject: Re: Biomass and EnergySecurity in sub-Saharan Africa Stovers, We all worry about attachments.  I opened Evans' document without any evident problems (sometimes they come later, but my virus protection is recently up-dated). Anyway, I took the liberty to copy the document and insert it below inside this e-mail message.  Some format changes might make it look messy, the is my fault (and MicroSoft's) and not from Evans. Footnote numbers did NOT copy at all. If hard to read, you might want to do "select all" and then paste into Word (or other word processor) which will bring it back close to the pages structure intended. Content:  A quick look tells me that Evans has a very useful document that is important for understanding the fuel issues facing Africa south of the Sahara. I plan on being at the Jo-burg conference in early September, and Evans also, it seems.  We need to prepare ourselves, and Evans paper is a starting point. To Evans:  can you (and others) tell us more about activities of interest to us about stoves and fuels at the Jo-burg conference?   What opportunities are there for presentations, demonstration, participations? When I previously mentioned the conference, one of the few responses was from Tom R. who played down its importance as being more talk than action.  I can agree with Tom.  But I am still going to attend and I am hoping for more "stover" involvement. Info item:  My work duties will put me in Mozambique from early July to mid October 2002, so I expect to be "local" for the conference and might be able to assist a few others (once I figure our myself the options at the Jo-burg conference. Paul At 01:49 AM 2/1/02 -0800, Kituyi, Evans wrote: Dear Stovers, I would appreciate comments on the attached 3page document on the future of energy for households in sub-Saharan Africa. Thanks Evans Kituyi Energy and the Road To Johannesburg Issues and Concerns for sub-Saharan African Households Evans Kituyi African Centre for Technology Studies, Nairobi, Kenya. E-mail: e.kituyi@cgiar.org Introduction Come September 2001, world governments will gather in Johannesburg, South Africa for the World Summit for Sustainable Development (WSSD), also dubbed the Rio+10 conference, and sustainable development will be the key phrase at the heart of the conference's theme. The purpose of this summit will be to review the progress so far made by nations in implementing the Agenda 21, identify the key challenges faced in the implementation process, and to map out the way forward towards a sustainable future. One of the key reasons why sustainable development was not achieved in anticipated levels in sub-Saharan Africa over the past decade was the poor access to cleaner commercial energy by the majority of its population. It is imperative that most of the population gains access to this form of energy as a prerequisite for sustainable development. Unfortunately, the people in the region cannot achieve this on their own and must be assisted in various aspects by the international community. One appropriate forum where Africa could present its case is the WSSD, through the African Ministerial Statementwhich will be the official channel for bringing the continents concerns to world attention. In their recent preparatory committee meeting (PrepCom) for the Summit held in Nairobi, the African Ministers noted this general energy concern. However, their arguments tended to be biased, focusing more on RETs such as Solar PV, wind, and increased development of hydro, failing to explicitly recognize the role of biomassfrequently implied in the meetings as synonymous with technological backwardness. However, it is unlikely that a significant fraction of sub-Saharan African households will gain access to modern, cleaner forms of energy (mainly electricity for lighting and kerosene for cooking) as sustainable substitutes to fuelwood in the short or even medium terms. Most will continue depending almost exclusively on biomass. This situation is not strongly highlighted in the ministerial report and it is unlikely thatin its current stateit will elicit world attention on the energy poverty status of the region. Significant Increase in Access to Cleaner Commercial Energy is Unlikely Africa starts the 21st Century as the poorest, the most technologically backward, the most debt distressed, and the most marginalised region in the world. Drought, disease, civil conflict and poor governance make the situation worse. Consequently, Africans' quality of life continued to erode over the last decade. In sub-Saharan Africa, 52% of people live on less than US$1 per day and urban poverty is increasingly severe, with about 43% of urban dwellers living below the poverty line of US$47 per month per capita. Opportunities for employment and household level income generating have diminishedhence the family savings to facilitate transition to modern energy are minimal. High urbanization ratemainly increasing the urban poor populationis putting more demand for charcoal, and by extension the forests and other biomass sources. Although the cost of renewable energy technologies (RETs) have fallen over the past decade, the magnitude of the drop has not been significant enough to compete kerosenethe commonly used liquid fossil fuel. Significant awareness of RETs has, however, been raised in many countries in Africa. It is therefore reasonable to infer that biomass (mainly firewood and charcoal) will remain the key sources of energy for most of the population in sub-Saharan Africa for several decades to come. This observation is shared by various institutions including the World Energy Council, the Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO), and the UNDP. Therefore little change, if any, will occur in as far as increasing the percentage of the population (both the rural and urban poor). Our pessimism in this regard is shared by the African Union which proposes a modest 25% increase in the number of households with access to cleaner commercial fuels by the year 2025 (from the current 10% to the projected 35%). This is part of the proposed objectives of the Union's widely accepted pathway towards sustainable development, the New African Initiative (NAI). Despite these scenarios, the African Ministers give no special attention to biomass energy in their draft common position to the WSSD. One can therefore assume that it is generalized under renewable energy. That the majority of Africans will not have their livelihoods (in general and energy poverty in particular) improved is not good news for a continent in dire need of sustainable development. This concern deserves strong recognition by the world leaders meeting in Johannesburg in order to deliver special and focused responses towards energy poverty reduction in the region. Towards Sustainable Energy Biomass Energy Production and Use The realistic picture that emerges from the preamble implies further suffering by the majority (at least 65% of the population, using NAI's projection as best case reference) of Africans as we enter the new millennium. Biomass will remain the major source of energy for rural populations, coupled with niche renewables such as Solar PV, provided they are affordable, reliable and a proper payments system is established. These sources themselves are under threat from overuse, creating additional environmental challenges. The increasing distances to the biomass sources in many regions and the number of households that are increasingly being conditioned to purchase their needs from markets, as well as the ever-increasing fuelwood costs demonstrate this. The message of this brief is that whereas efforts to promote access by all to modern commercial energy technologies must be encouraged, concurrent agendas should be in place for the sake of the majority who will not have the means to gain access to cleaner energy. For the short and medium terms, any sustainable development solutions in the household energy sub-sector in Africa must focus on biomass energy technology development and dissemination. This includes sustainable fuelwood production and its efficient consumption through adoption of improved energy technologies, with sustained efforts to eliminated barriers to access to commercial energy. Many opponents to this school of thought do exist, who argue that nothing but leapfrog by Africans to cleaner commercial energy should be promoted. Whereas this could be necessarily true, it is neither practical nor realistic on a short or medium term. It is from this realization that some institutions including the UNDP and the G8 have been proactive at offering solutions towards accelerated cost-efficient adoption of improved efficiency biomass conversion technologies. Others such as International Energy Agency, the Shell Foundation and the World Bank-ESMAP do finance studies aimed at identifying barriers to the large-scale adoption of existing biomass technology innovations. The objective is usually the attainment of environmentally sound and cost-competitive bioenergy on a sustainable basis to make a substantial contribution to meeting future energy demands. These institutions provide a framework upon which future work in the region may be built upon through appropriate institutional linkages with many indigenous organizations. Conclusion The energy poverty situation in Africa is serious and worsening, and the majority of the population will continue depending on biomass for many decades to come. The African Ministers recognize this well. Ironically, however, the energy section in their joint message to the WSSD is weak on this message, hence unlikely to trigger the world's interest and attention, significant enough for the Summit to deliver a special deal on alleviating energy poverty on the continent. There is still a chance, however, for interested stakeholders to enrich the Ministerial Statement through submissions at subsequent preparatory meetings or during the Summit itself. An urgent regional roundtable on the plight of the majority of Africans that will still not gain access to commercial energy for many decades to come is therefore recommended to generate a number of balanced positions for presentation to the WSSD.  African Preparatory Conference for the World Summit on Sustainable Development, Nairobi, 18 October 2001.  ECA (2001) Transforming Africa's Economies. Economic Report on Africa 2000, Economic Commission for Africa, 85p. Addis Ababa.  ECA (2001) Ibid.  WEO (2001) World Energy Outlook 2001. International Energy Agency, http://www.iea.org/  World Energy Council in its WEC Statement 2000.  Gustafson, D. (2001) The role of woodfuels in Africa, Food and Agriculture Organisation In Proceedings of the African High-Level Regional Meeting on Energy and Sustainable Development (N. Wamukonya, Ed.) 1013 January 2001, Nairobi, Kenya. pp 99101.  UNDP (2000) World Energy Assessment, UNDP/UNDESA/WEC.  WEC (2000) Energy for Tomorrow's WorldActing Now! WEC Statement 2000. World Energy Council. 146p.  Statement by Dr Klaus Toepfer, Executive Director, UNEP at the African High Level Regional Meeting on Energy and Sustainable Development for CSD 9.  Gustafson, D. (2001) Op Cit.  Kituyi, E. et al. (2001) Biofuel consumption rates and patterns in Kenya, Biomass and Bioenergy 20:8399.  See various projects at UNDP Bioenergy page at http://www.undp.org/seed/eap/Projects/biomass.html  G8 Renewable Energy Task Force Report. Corrado Clini and Mark Moody-Stuart (Co-Chairmen) 2001. 61p.  See website on bioenergy at http://www.iea.org/impagr/imporg/iadesc/bioener.htm  See website at http://www.shellfoundation.org/ for details on project types. Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D.,  Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00 Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University Normal, IL  61790-4400   Voice:  309-438-7360;  FAX:  309-438-5310 E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D.,  Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00 Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University Normal, IL  61790-4400   Voice:  309-438-7360;  FAX:  309-438-5310 E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders From tmiles at trmiles.com Mon Feb 4 11:06:19 2002 From: tmiles at trmiles.com (Tom Miles) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:35 2004 Subject: Stoves Archives, Web Site, Pics and Links Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020204130140.0198f808@mail.teleport.com> Stovers, Stoves archives are at: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ You'll find an updated version and Alex's original stoves website at: http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) There are some broken links on the new site because not all of the images and files have been transferred. I've posted several of the recent photos that people have posted to the list, or tried. We asked Solarhost to strip certain files to limit SPAM so if you're pictures don't make it through then that's why. If you have an image to upload send it to me at tmiles@trmiles.com We're working toward list members being able to post files and photos directly onto the website in the future. CREST has been moving some things around. The new URLs for the bioenergy reference pages are: http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon These should be in the footer of every message. However some mailers strip footers. Regards, Tom Miles Thomas R Miles          tmiles@trmiles.com T R Miles, TCI                  Tel 503-292-0107 1470 SW Woodward Way    Fax 503-292-2919 Portland, OR 97225 USA From dstill at epud.net Mon Feb 4 11:30:11 2002 From: dstill at epud.net (Dean Still) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:35 2004 Subject: Please criticize this plan for a Rocket elbow type stove Message-ID: <004a01c1ae03$68192da0$1f15210c@default> Dear Jeff, Thanks so much for your work on the Rocket! There are many folks working on the Rocket to improve it. I hope that with all of this activity we make substantive advances in 2002. Dr Tami Bond at NOAA is testing for particulate emissions/efficiency and Dr Bryan Willson is testing for gaseous emissions at Colorado State University. Dr Mark Bryden, Iowa State U, is at work gathering data to mathmatically model the stove. In my lab, I'm trying to get better mixing of flame, air, fuel without using a fan by both roughing up air before and after the combustion chamber. If you want to have your model tested we can probably do this for you. I suspect that it should be relatively easy to get much improved mixing because a cylinder does a pretty good job by itself and has no baffles, etc.... The spiral that you've introduced may do what we're looking for, clean up combustion without disturbing draft or decreasing temperatures at the pot! Lanny Hansen built something along the same lines a couple of weeks ago. Can I add your name to the ETHOS contact list that helps to coordinate folks working on Rockets? Dr Winiarski is working in Nicaragua. My comments, a poor second, are in your text as follows: Questions I have about the Rocket: The nice descriptive page: http://www.efn.org/~apro/atrocketpage.html stills leaves me with some questions. In the photos there is no draft regulator. But in the drawings there is a "door" floating from above over the intake. Is there any best way of controlling the power? I would think just diminishing the amount of sticks would lead to too much cooling air and increase the attention necessary by the cook. I would usually strangle the input air for low power simmering. JEFF< IN MY EXPERIENCE, AND THIS HAS JUST BEEN REINFORCED BY TESTING DONE BY TAMI BOND, CUTTING AIR DOWN REALLY HURTS COMBUSTION. WHEN WE SLID DOWN A GUILLOTINE DOOR REDUCING PRIMARY AIR CARBON MONOXIDE LEVELS DRAMATICALLY ROSE. THE EXIT TEMPERATURES AT THE TOP OF THE ROCKET CHIMNEY ARE ABOUT 1400F WHEN USING ONLY FOUR STICKS THAT BLOCK ONLY ONE QUARTER OF THE OPENING TO THE FEED MAGAZINE. I AM PROBABLY WRONG BUT MY THINKING IS THAT AIR IS VERY EASILY HEATED AND EVEN WITH THE 4 to 6 inch FEED MAGAZINE MOSTLY EMPTY THE INCOMING AIR DOES NOT COOL DOWN THE COMBUSTION TOO MUCH, AS SHOWN BY THE RELATIVELY HIGH EXIT TEMPERATURES. One problem is what one does with long sticks that are in the way. I thought maybe one could work at the other end: Have a small or wider gap between the pot and stove top. LARRY REALLY DOESN"T SUGGEST DAMPERS OR REDUCING AIR AS A WAY TO CONTROL THE AMOUNT OF DELIVERED HEAT> LIKE IN A CAR, HE SUGGESTS REDUCING THE AMOUNT OF FUEL NOT SLOWING THE CAR BY PUTTING A POTATO IN THE TAILPIPE, SO TO SPEAK> I also am not sure of dimensioning questions: would there be anything wrong with having the horizontal pipe slightly larger than the vertical one (inner diam of horiz. = outer diameter of vertical)? I was thinking of making them as two pieces and the vertical pipe would be put into a hole in the side of the horizontal one.SOUNDS GOOD TO ME! The metal plate under the firewood is supposed to let in air and preheat it some: How far in should it extend? In the picture is seems to end at the Beginning of vertical pipe. If the plate is to capture heat to preheat the input air I would think it might be best to continue in under the flames some, nad perhaps have perforations. THE SHELF THAT SEPARATES STICKS OF WOOD IS HELPING TO CREATE A GRATE OUT OF THE STICKS THEMSELVES WHICH DECREASES SMOKE. ONE BURNING STICK NEXT TO THE OTHER HELPS TO CREATE HIGHER TEMPERATURES. THE SHELF USUALLY STOPS AT THE BEGINNING OF THE VERTICAL PIPE BECAUSE YOU DON'T WANT BURNING COALS TO SMOTHER THE ENDS OF THE STICKS BUT IT'S ALSO BAD IF COALS BLOCK THE SPACE UNDER THE SHELF BLOCKING INCOMING AIR. REALLY THE SHELF'S MAJOR CONTRIBUTION IS TO SEPARATE STICKS TO GET AIR SPACES BETWEEN EACH ONE. ANYTHING YOU CAN DO TO METER FUEL, TO GET STICKS TO COMPLETELY BURN AND NOT MAKE COALS, IS GOOD. ONLY PUSH IN THE TIPS OF THE WOOD AS THEY DISAPPEAR. WE WANT PREHEATED AIR BUT IT ISN'T VERY PREHEATED IN A SIDEFEED ARRANGEMENT. BETTER IN A DOWNFEED J TYPE ARRANGEMENT BUT FOLKS DON"T LIKE IT> I've made a attached sketch (GIF only 11 kb) of what it could look like. 1. top view of pot support ring with possible spiral ridges to increase turbulence 2. high ridge pot support ring for high power (greater air flow) 3. low ridge pot support ring for low power (restricted air flow, increased pot contact) 4. low ridge wok-type pot support ring 5. containment box for insulating and supporting Rocket Elbow (filled with wood ash) 6. vertical tube for elbow 7. horizontal tub with cutout for vertical tube 8. sloping front side to allow simply laying a baffle against it to control inlet air or help maintain heat for easy lighting, tinder drying 9. metal piece under fuel (flattened tin can?) extending under fire with holes 10. end view from feeding end of elbow 11. shield around: 12. most common type of pot The family uses MANY sizes of cylindrical spun aluminum pots. I would probably try to make at least one shield for the most often used size to keep hot gases along the sides of the pot. IT CERTAINLY SOUNDS BEAUTIFUL AND I WISH YOU FULFILLING USE! BEST< DEAN - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon For information about CHAMBERS STOVES http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm From ronallarson at qwest.net Mon Feb 4 13:22:38 2002 From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:35 2004 Subject: Biomass and EnergySecurity in sub-Saharan Africa In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20020204134835.00c491f0@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <009a01c1add2$d9acc340$70f76641@computer> Paul, Evans, et al   Re a message today, Paul said:       "Therefore, I call on all Stovers everywhere to think of who and how we could get something going (or find a "like-minded" group that is already part-way there to having a venue and program.)"    (RWL):     1. The dates have been moved forward to August 26 through September 4 (Although I still see the old dates a lot).  Some pertinent sites I found are:   http://www.johannesburgsummit.org/html/brochure/final_brochure.pdf   http://www.earthsummit2002.org/ic/energy/nymeetinginv.htm   http://www.earthsummit2002.org/ic/partners.htm   http://www.conferenceofngos.org/txt/ngosubs/sustdev.htm         There are some NGO meetings in Joburg even before August 26.      2.   The big potential funding groups that come to mind are:  The Shell Foundation,  Bill and Melissa Gate Foundation (Melissa has been spending a lot of her time on Health Issues in Developing Countries), and the Turner Foundation (which seems to be restricted to giving funds only to UN organizations).  I'll be glad to start these contacts - but need to know more about who is organizing the NGO and meeting activities in J'burg.  Anyone have a lead?3.  I only had time to get a start today - I found no group talking about IAQ and health or GW relationships to stoves.  But there is enough going on that there may be something already happening, and some group with whom we can collaborate.  I just didn't find it my first search.  Anyone know a good group to work with?   Thanks to Paul and Evans for their continued interest.   Ron       From dstill at epud.net Mon Feb 4 18:22:29 2002 From: dstill at epud.net (Dean Still) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:35 2004 Subject: Lanny's Rocket Wok Message-ID: <001301c1ae2d$f6b36d80$d71d66ce@default> Dear Friends, Here's Lanny's Wok stove making stir fried noodles. Is this an OK way to send photos? Best, Dean - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon For information about CHAMBERS STOVES -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: jpg00656.jpg Type: application/octet-stream Size: 21801 bytes Desc: "http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm" Url : http://listserv.repp.org/pipermail/stoves/attachments/20020204/fe95c992/jpg00656.obj From JEFF.FORSSELL at ssvh.se Mon Feb 4 22:47:55 2002 From: JEFF.FORSSELL at ssvh.se (Jeff Forssell) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:35 2004 Subject: SV: Please criticize this plan for a Rocket elbow type stove Message-ID: Can I add your name to the ETHOS contact list that helps to coordinate folks working on Rockets? I´m having trouble keeping up with the stoves list, (I'm working fulltime as a teacher in Sweden) but you can put me in . JEFF< IN MY EXPERIENCE, AND THIS HAS JUST BEEN REINFORCED BY TESTING DONE BY TAMI BOND, CUTTING AIR DOWN REALLY HURTS COMBUSTION. WHEN WE SLID DOWN A GUILLOTINE DOOR REDUCING PRIMARY AIR CARBON MONOXIDE LEVELS DRAMATICALLY ROSE. THE EXIT TEMPERATURES AT THE TOP OF THE ROCKET CHIMNEY ARE ABOUT 1400F WHEN USING ONLY FOUR STICKS THAT BLOCK ONLY ONE QUARTER OF THE OPENING TO THE FEED MAGAZINE. I AM PROBABLY WRONG BUT MY THINKING IS THAT AIR IS VERY EASILY HEATED AND EVEN WITH THE 4 to 6 inch FEED MAGAZINE MOSTLY EMPTY THE INCOMING AIR DOES NOT COOL DOWN THE COMBUSTION TOO MUCH, AS SHOWN BY THE RELATIVELY HIGH EXIT TEMPERATURES. Thats good to hear THE SHELF THAT SEPARATES STICKS OF WOOD IS HELPING TO CREATE A GRATE OUT OF THE STICKS THEMSELVES WHICH DECREASES SMOKE. ONE BURNING STICK NEXT TO THE OTHER HELPS TO CREATE HIGHER TEMPERATURES. THE SHELF USUALLY STOPS AT THE BEGINNING OF THE VERTICAL PIPE BECAUSE YOU DON'T WANT BURNING COALS TO SMOTHER THE ENDS OF THE STICKS BUT IT'S ALSO BAD IF COALS BLOCK THE SPACE UNDER THE SHELF BLOCKING INCOMING AIR. This sounds to me like maybe there should be an increased volume at the bottom of the vertical pipe to get burning coals "out of the way" I sort of expected more mention of "ash". Isn't that a problem? - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon For information about CHAMBERS STOVES http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm From pverhaart at optusnet.com.au Tue Feb 5 01:56:38 2002 From: pverhaart at optusnet.com.au (Peter Verhaart) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:35 2004 Subject: Downdraft barbecue In-Reply-To: <001301c1ae2d$f6b36d80$d71d66ce@default> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020205215209.00a6b8f0@mail.optusnet.com.au> Dear Stovers, Emulating Dean's posting, here is the Downdraft Barbecue at work, suitably (I hope) reduced in size. Piet PVDDBBQ.jpg - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon For information about CHAMBERS STOVES -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: jpg00657.jpg Type: application/octet-stream Size: 14764 bytes Desc: "http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm" Url : http://listserv.repp.org/pipermail/stoves/attachments/20020205/284421d7/jpg00657.obj From kchisholm at ca.inter.net Tue Feb 5 03:54:39 2002 From: kchisholm at ca.inter.net (Kevin Chisholm) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:35 2004 Subject: Downdraft barbecue In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020205215209.00a6b8f0@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <007301c1ae4c$af14ad80$cb19059a@kevin> Dear Peter Thanks for your posting and picture. Subject: Re: Downdraft barbecue If I understand it, the Downdraft" is at the fire box, and after the firebox, the hot gases turn 180 degrees vertical, and rise about 12" to 18". Then they travel horizontally under a plate type top, then out the stack. Is this about it? If so, the vertical riser must be quite well insulated to prevent excessive heat loss. Have you measured temperatures on the griddle surface? How thich is the "griddle plate? How uniform is temperature distribution? Thanks!! Kevin Chisholm > Dear Stovers, > > Emulating Dean's posting, here is the Downdraft Barbecue at work, suitably > (I hope) reduced in size. - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon For information about CHAMBERS STOVES http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm From tmiles at trmiles.com Tue Feb 5 05:12:04 2002 From: tmiles at trmiles.com (Tom Miles) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:35 2004 Subject: Downdraft barbecue - Use of Photos In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020205215209.00a6b8f0@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <022301c1ae57$89918e10$0301a8c0@trmhp> Dean's 21 k Jpg photo appeared in the archives but Peter's 14 k photo did not. (You can see uncharred versions of Peters rig on the Stoves web site.) The only difference I see is that Dean's message was addressed To: stoves@crest.org while Peter's was addressed To: Dean and CC: stoves@crest.org The mailer handles CC'd messages differently. We cause the CC by directing the "reply" to the sender, so when you hit "Reply All" stoves@crest.org winds up as a CC. I'll send this one to the list technical admins to see how we can resolve this. Meanwhile if anyone is not receving the photos or has problems downloading or viewing embedded photos please let us know. So far the photos plus messages have all been within 40k which is a pretty standard message size limit. I'm sure that we have several 14.4 kb connections on the list. I heard of one 9600 baud connection a year ago in Southern Africa. I do not know whether that connection has improved. I don't want to leave anyone out so we'll continue to post these photos on the Stoves web page as the opportuntiy arises. We'll also reprocess the photos on the page for faster loading but that wil take some time. Regards, Tom Miles Thomas R Miles TR Miles, Technical Consultants tmiles@trmiles.com 503-292-0107 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Verhaart" To: "Dean Still" Cc: Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2002 3:55 AM Subject: Re: Downdraft barbecue > Dear Stovers, > > Emulating Dean's posting, here is the Downdraft Barbecue at work, suitably > (I hope) reduced in size. > > Piet > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > - > Stoves List Archives and Website: > http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ > http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) > http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) > > Stoves List Moderators: > Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net > Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net > Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com > > List-Post: > List-Help: > List-Unsubscribe: > List-Subscribe: > > Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html > - > Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: > http://www.bioenergy2002.org > http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy > http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification > http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon > > For information about CHAMBERS STOVES > http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon For information about CHAMBERS STOVES http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Tue Feb 5 05:15:36 2002 From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:35 2004 Subject: Fire on the Hearth. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3C5FF749.CD359638@cybershamanix.com> Ah yes, I read that (and the sequels, I believe) many years ago. Quite interesting, really. And you're right, the science of wood burning is much more developed. There is something about fire, however, that is also mystical. We just installed a very good set of custom made steel (well, heavy steel frame, mostly glass) doors on our living room fireplace, and for the first time can justify having an almost continual wood fire going. It's amazing how much more heat we get from it, and how much better the fire burns, than from an open fireplace. But what I find really interesting is how hard it is to draw oneself away from the fire, and how much time we now spend sitting in front of it. My wife, who is a psych nurse, says she's amazed at how utterly calming it it. I find it literally hypnotic. And I'm wondering why exactly that is -- some sort of genetic memory created from eons of humans gathering around the fire at night? Perhaps that's the what's wrong with western society, we (and I use that figuratively, since we've never owned one) have traded the homefire for the cold electronic flicker of a TV. From the time of living in caves until very, very recently, the hearth was the center of the home. We need to get back to that. Thomas Reed wrote: > > Dear Harmon: > > Have you read the book "Clan of the Cave Bear" about life 35000 years ago? > > Not much changed yet, but I think we're ready to understand and improve wood > cooking many ways.... > > Your pal, TOM REED BEF STOVEWORKS -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon For information about CHAMBERS STOVES http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm From crispin at newdawn.sz Tue Feb 5 05:44:45 2002 From: crispin at newdawn.sz (Crispin) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:35 2004 Subject: Pictures in Swaziland Message-ID: <004e01c1ae5c$4a475e60$7ce80fc4@home> Dear Stovers As one of those on the farthest reaches of the internet I should speak up. We get a 24k connection here at work in Swaziland not because of local limitations but because it is accessed through a switchboard which somehow interferes with a 33.6 speed. At the house I get a consistent 33.6. I have managed after several tries to get listed on the stoves group and off the stoves digest which is what I have been getting all along. I did this primarily because not one of the pictures was visible on the digest mailout and people are starting to send moe and more of them. It was not possible to save the useful parts of a digest which includes large numbers of copies of forwarded and replied messages, over and over as people extend a thread by tacking their comments on the front. The pics arrive as a mass upon mass of letters mimed and not reconstructed. Only today I got to see my first photo from this group. I agree with the 40k limit. Bigger pics can be sent on the side or posted somehwere. Regards Crispin - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon For information about CHAMBERS STOVES http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm From psanders at ilstu.edu Tue Feb 5 06:47:14 2002 From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:35 2004 Subject: ETHOS list and "Rocket Stove" name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20020205101656.017d7db0@mail.ilstu.edu> Dean and all, If there is a separate list for those working on "Rocket-style" stoves, please place my name and address on it. At the same time, I ask the question about what has been discussed on an ETHOS list that has not gone to the Stoves list readers? Is there someone who is taking responsibility to inform the Stoves list about any substantive items shared on the ETHOS list? Maybe a statement about what is ETHOS and its objectives would be useful for all of the Stoves readers. Finally, I have previously and frequently acknowledged that the Rocket stove has had an influence on the design of the top part of my Juntos stove. But my current design work is with sufficient "non-Rocket" elements that I am uncomfortable about possibly misleading people to think that my stuff is really "Rocket" style. Although Dean has clearly stated the Aprovecho willingness to share everything in it designs, it would NOT be correct for people to take or share or use the name of "Rocket Stove" if really it is something quite distinct. We do not seem to have a GENERIC name for what the Rocket Stove represents. So let me try this expression: low lateral loading columnar stove, For those who like abbreviations, that could be an "LLLC" stove, like the Reed-Larson IDD gasifier unit. Or the distinctive features of the Rocket stove could be LLLC with separation of fuel and air supplies, because that is important, also. I am sure that many of us could imaging an LLLC stove variation that could hardly claim use of the name of "Rocket Stove." I expect to continue to say that the upper part of the Juntos stove is "Rocket-like in some ways" or has "some Rocket-style features". I want to give credit whenever appropriate. Maybe some day the actual Rocket Stove with have "some Juntos-like features". Who knows. Paul At 09:49 AM 2/5/02 +0100, Jeff Forssell wrote: > Can I add your name to the ETHOS contact list that helps to >coordinate folks > working on Rockets? >I´m having trouble keeping up with the stoves list, (I'm working fulltime as >a teacher in Sweden) but you can put me in . > > JEFF< IN MY EXPERIENCE, AND THIS HAS JUST BEEN REINFORCED BY Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00 Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310 E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon For information about CHAMBERS STOVES http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm From tami.bond at noaa.gov Tue Feb 5 07:48:22 2002 From: tami.bond at noaa.gov (Tami Bond) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:35 2004 Subject: Fire on the Hearth. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3C601ABF.7B82D8C8@noaa.gov> Dear Stovers, Anyone who is interested in the role of fire in society should read Stephen Pyne's 'Cycle of Fire' books: _World Fire_, _Vestal Fire_, _Burning Bush_, and so on. Pyne focuses more on field, agricultural and forest burning. He writes really well, but his books are fairly dense. > Perhaps that's the what's wrong with western society, we (and I use > that figuratively, since we've never owned one) have traded the homefire > for the cold electronic flicker of a TV. From the time of living in > caves until very, very recently, the hearth was the center of the home. > We need to get back to that. Both Pyne and Margaret and Robert Hazen (historians) talk about how the hearth fire (notice same root as 'heart') has been removed from the living room, first to the basement or garage and now even further away to power plants. But this is a bit of philosophy-- a realm where I may dabble sometimes, but maybe too much off the Stoves track! Respond off list... Tami - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon For information about CHAMBERS STOVES http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm From psanders at ilstu.edu Tue Feb 5 08:44:30 2002 From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:35 2004 Subject: Lanny's Rocket Wok In-Reply-To: <001301c1ae2d$f6b36d80$d71d66ce@default> Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20020205124520.017f4e70@mail.ilstu.edu> Dean, 20 K image not a problem, but I still wonder if we could include pictures IN the e-mail like Tom did. "A picture is worth a thousand words." Thank you. But your "picture raises a thousand questions." Not really a thousand questions, but a few: 1. Is this a "short Rocket" that is wider than tall? 2. Rocket with chimney? Is that typical? 3. Wok contact with the heat is direct to flame? or contact with hot metal? or radiant from stove top through air to the bottom of the wok? (cannot see the top of the stove.) Looks very good. Paul At 02:14 AM 2/5/02 -0800, Dean Still wrote: >Dear Friends, > >Here's Lanny's Wok stove making stir fried noodles. Is this an OK way to >send photos? > >Best, > >Dean Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00 Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310 E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon For information about CHAMBERS STOVES http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm From dstill at epud.net Tue Feb 5 09:13:02 2002 From: dstill at epud.net (Dean Still) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:35 2004 Subject: Please criticize this plan for a Rocket elbow type stove Message-ID: <004001c1ae71$949ae080$5115210c@default> Dear Jeff, After a 45 minute burn in a Rocket stove with 12" high internal chimney there is an average of less than 20 grams of ash. So it's not blocking incoming air until it builds up after longer use. We're burning kiln dried Douglas Fir in our tests. Expanding the space for coals at the base of the vertical internal chimney is a good idea. Just have to make it possible for folks to have access to it for ash removal. A thermocouple sensor right next to glowing coals shows temperatures around 1400F so the coals are definitely helping the sticks to burn hot. Wouldn't want to move them too far away... Today I'm testing a 24" high internal chimney with a couple of baffles in it to create mixing. I also have a donated catalytic converter (thanks to Applied Ceramics!) in the top of the chimney to see if this cleans up emissions in a cooking stove as it does in a heating stove. Best, Dean - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon For information about CHAMBERS STOVES http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm From dstill at epud.net Tue Feb 5 09:13:38 2002 From: dstill at epud.net (Dean Still) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:36 2004 Subject: ETHOS list and "Rocket Stove" name Message-ID: <004101c1ae71$95738d40$5115210c@default> Dear Paul, ETHOS (Engineers in Technical Humanitarian Opportunities of Service) is a group consisting of people from NOAA, Iowa State University, Dayton University, Seattle University, Colorado State University, etc who are presently testing Rocket stoves trying to improve them. Aprovecho helps to coordinate the research. The other side of ETHOS is Trees, Water & People, HELPS International and Winrock International: organizations that promote better stoves, etc. in Central America. The purpose of ETHOS is to enable a collaboration between these organizations that further efforts to get better stoves to families who need them. Research includes sending engineering student interns to Central America. We're committed to using the first rate experimental abilities of U.S. based labs and universities to assist NGO's efforts in the field. I pass on to the CREST list postings that are interesting. Both Tom Reed and Ron Larson are on ETHOS committees and were at our meeting in Seattle so I'm doubly sure that ETHOS info will be covered here. Paul, I'll add your name to the ETHOS contact list. As far as the Rocket name goes, this is a complicated subject, unfortunately. I think that there is a U.S. camping stove that is called Rocket. Also the Aprovecho Rocket types of Winiarski designs are called Rocky in Guatemala, Dona Justa in Honduras, EcoStove in Nicaragua, tsotso in Zimbabwe, Henya stove in Kenya, Infierno in El Salvador, etc. Our camping stove made from tin cans is called the Fish Camp stove. A rose by any name...(burns as complete) just a joke... Naming a set of stove design principles that are adapted in many different ways has benefits and liabilities. Inventor's pride gets folks to work hard but it also makes them defensive. We all suffer from this syndrome at Aprovecho! Personally, I push the idea that many engineers have reached a consensus about how to design most of the parts of a good wood burning cooking stove. The heat transfer to the pot is just plain good sense. Using insulation not thermal mass around the fire and subsequent heat is just plain good sense. How to encourage good primary combustion is also established. Really good stoves, at this point, can be made by not making pretty obvious mistakes. These mistakes were not obvious to the stove designers in the '70's because engineers and researchers had not made all this abundantly clear. My problem now is that the governments and NGO's that build stoves have not read the books, met the engineers, or know that a new generation of better stoves waits to be disseminated. The work that the STOVES list is doing rests on top of this work. And I think that we will also eventually find that no serious and informed person disagrees very strongly about how to reduce emissions from cooking stoves, make a gasifying type combustion chamber, etc. Some people concentrate on the minutiae of the thousand little problems that have not been completely nailed down but I am constantly made aware of shared designing agreements. At a certain point stoves, like cars, will begin to share so many proven characteristics that similarities will be more obvious than differences. (Actually, I think that we are pretty close to this point in time.) Best, Dean - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon For information about CHAMBERS STOVES http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm From dstill at epud.net Tue Feb 5 09:26:16 2002 From: dstill at epud.net (Dean Still) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:36 2004 Subject: Lanny's Rocket Wok Message-ID: <004c01c1ae73$6d4e3ac0$5115210c@default> Dear Paul, I'll answer in Caps. Gotta rush but want to get this off. As follows: > >1. Is this a "short Rocket" that is wider than tall? THE FEED MAGAZINE, HORIZONTAL TUBE IS 12'' AND THE INTERNAL CHIMNEY IS NOW 14''> >2. Rocket with chimney? Is that typical? YES, ALMOST ALL OF THE STOVES IN CENTRAL AMERICA USE CHIMNEYS. > >3. Wok contact with the heat is direct to flame? or contact with hot >metal? or radiant from stove top through air to the bottom of the wok? >(cannot see the top of the stove.)A SKIRT FOLLOWS THE CONTOUR OF THE WOK UNDER THE SURFACE OF THE TOP OF THE STOVE BODY CREATING A ONE QUARTER INCH GAP THAT CREATES GOOD HEAT TRANSFER. THIS SKIRT ENDS ONE INCH UNDER THE TOP OF THE STOVE BODY AND HOT FLUE GASES EXIT FROM THIS SPACE ALL AROUND THE BOTTOM OF THE WOK TO THEN EXIT FROM THE CHIMNEY OUT OF THE SIDE OF THE STOVE BODY. > >Looks very good. LANNY REALLY DOES GREAT WORK,A GOOD CO-DESIGNER AND TIN MAN! > Best, Dean > > > - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon For information about CHAMBERS STOVES http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm From das at eagle-access.net Tue Feb 5 22:41:36 2002 From: das at eagle-access.net (Das) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:36 2004 Subject: more about pictures Message-ID: <200202060846.g168khC17894@saturn.eagle-access.net> The figure that you sent is just a scanned image of a table. If you have a data table that you want to send. I recommend either of two ways depanding on security or file size. If it is OK to send an attatched file as you have just done, then simply send your data as an excell file. If for security reasons you wish to send the file without sending it as an attatchment, then you can save the file from excell as a comma delimited file. then open the file as a text file, mark the data, control C to copy , and paste into the text of your email. We recipients can then paste the data file into a text file, then import the data into excell without anyone having to learn more than a few new buttons.. A. Das Original Sources/Biomass Energy Foundation Box 7137, Boulder, CO 80306 das@eagle-access.net ---------- From: Jeff Forssell To: stoves@crest.org Subject: more about pictures Date: Monday, February 04, 2002 8:38 AM I have often felt like there should be more simple drawings of how things are done in the list. Basic guidelines for compact pictures: Use GIF for drawings. JPEG for photos (use some compression). See to it that the size in pixels is not bigger than 400*400 unless there are important details that would be lost. Most drawing programs can resize pictures. A picture of a table of values is better that nothing, but should as soon as possible be replaced with a readable file (HTML, text, XLS). They are much more compact, searchable, easily imported into documents, spread sheets. A person with an OCR program can usually transform a scanned picture (of text) into a text quite quickly. When using pictures in homepages try to always have an: ALT="closeup of Junta stove chimney" >; in the is a picture of a table of values. The size is 82 kb By simply cropping it slightly and saving as a GIF file (because it contains few colors (2!) and large fields of single colors) It becomes only 28 kb and if "interlaced" you can see it roughly even though it has not downloaded fully. <> If it were in some formatted text it might be down to 2 kb (guess) Jeff Forssell (två s) Centrum för Flexibelt Lärande (CFL, fd SSVH) "Center for Flexible Learning" Box 3024 SE-871 03 HÄRNÖSAND /Sweden +46(0)611-55 79 48 (Work) +46(0)611-55 79 80 (Fax Work) +46(0)611-22 1 44 (Home) (070- 35 80 306; 070-4091514 mobil) Gamla Karlebyvägen 14 / 871 33 Härnösand e-mail: every workday: jf@ssvh.se (travel, visiting: jeff_forssell@hotmail.com & MSMessenger) Personal homepage: http://www.torget.se/users/i/iluhya/index.htm My village technology page: http://home.bip.net/jeff.forssell Instant messengers Odigo 792701 (Yahoo: jeff_forssell, ICQ: 55800587) - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/ http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/ http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml For information about CHAMBERS STOVES http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm ---------- - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon For information about CHAMBERS STOVES http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm From dstill at epud.net Wed Feb 6 07:12:39 2002 From: dstill at epud.net (Dean Still) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:36 2004 Subject: Fw: Rocket summary Message-ID: <001201c1af6f$a1d7f540$6e15210c@default> Dear Friends, Dr.Tami Bond sends this summary of the Rocket vs open fire tests. A million thanks to her for doing this and hopefully we'll be learning how to do better and better! Best, Dean > >Dean, and Kirk, > >(Feel free to forward this to anyone who might comment.) >Here is a summary of the Rocket results. Nothing new here, except I >said I would give Kirk the g/MJ-fuel numbers. These are not very good >since I do not have a way to analyze fuel, so I just used Dean's >assumption. Feel free to forward this to anyone who might be >interested. There will be a more full report when I finish the chemical >analysis, but I have to collect enough samples to run batches for ions >and trace metals. > >Kirk-- FYI, I did two days of testing, one where some Apro folks were >tending the fire, and one where I was tending and measuring at the same >time. The Rocket tests I ran have higher PM than the ones Apro ran, but >lower CO (because I did not choke off the inlet air). My open fire >looks better than the Apro run. > >PM emissions g/kg g/MJ-fuel g/MJ-deliv >Rockets 3.7 0.19 0.70 >Open 6.1 0.31 1.4 > >CO emissions g/kg g/MJ-fuel g/MJ-deliv >Rockets 30 1.5 5.6 >Open 48 2.4 11 > >The EC results were surprising (to me). I get EC/TC ratios (e.g. >fraction of carbon that is 'elemental' by thermal method) of 30-60%. >Kirk, when you did your China and India work, do you remember how the >samples looked-- light brown, dark brown, black? Mine are pretty black. >I'm sure it is because we are burning small, dry wood; larger or >moister wood would probably have less EC. But I haven't seen previous >numbers anywhere near 50% for EC fraction. The CW batted around for >INDOEX results says that all 'biomass' combustion gives something like >10%. Plus, I have recently done some absorption analysis for Chandra V >on wood and cow dung-- the absorption is pretty small. So I feel that >these measurements might be anomalous, but it's all in how you burn it! >What's 'typical' practice on wood size and moisture content, or is >there such a thing? > >> >Tami > > > - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon For information about CHAMBERS STOVES http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm From ronallarson at qwest.net Wed Feb 6 13:19:12 2002 From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:36 2004 Subject: Increasing Attention to Stoves - Part II Message-ID: <02ad01c1af65$2b43b5e0$02f66641@computer> Stovers:       This is to follow up on the World Bank sponsored e-mail list discussion that I have mentioned twice previously.  I think there is a chance to make a little bigger noise about stoves through this World  Banklist.  I will send the following in to that same list in a few days, but am taking this chance to keep out of trouble by asking for references and more specific examples of good or bad policy options for those who do not have time or inclination to get deeply involved.  Just let me know either privately or through the list on topics you would like modified or added to see be sent through this "official" WSSD (World Summit on Sustainable Development) path.  I do encourage multiple entries, of course.  I will try to shorten this - but need to get feedback fast as well.  Thanks in advance.     Title:  Increasing Attention to Stoves - Part II   Dear Mr. Reddy   A.  Background    A1. In my first response on 4 February,  I commented on your several questions as contained in the short summary you sent out on 1 February - all from the single perspective of stoves and global warming (GW).  I have since read the full paper (http://wbweb4.worldbank.org/nars/eworkspace/ews004/mydevforum1.asp).   The following sections B and C  more completely answer your request for possible additions/changes (which was repeated nicely in the very last sentence (p35, para. 116):  "Based on this wider dialog a revised version of this paper will be prepared for WSSD".      A2.   Nothing I said on 4 February needs to change. I recognize that I am responding only in a narrow (ie cooking/heating) fashion - but I strongly believe the importance of stoves to your topic of the poor and environment is underemphasized - in every venue (users,  technical experts, individual governments and world bodies, the WSSD, and this paper.)  This is to try to rectify this void.      A3.    First let me state what I like about the full paper -  In part 2 (paragraphs 7- 38) your consultant team emphasizes 3 Dimensions - Livelihood, Health, and Vulnerability.  I cannot fault this breakout of poverty "Dimensions", which contains two subparts for each.  Stoves and indoor air pollution appear (only) in paragraph 28.  Box 4 for this subsection makes no mention of household energy use in the two examples cited.           A4.     In Part 3 (paragraphs 39 to 110), the report authors identify 4 Action Areas:  I3.1 Improving Governance (4 subsections, paragraphs 42-55) , 3.2  Enhancing the Asset Base of the Poor (3 (or 4?)subsections,  paragraphs 56 - 73, of which only paragraph 72 is strong on stoves), 3.3  Improving Quality of Growth (4 Subsections, paragraphs 74 to 97), and 3.4  Reforming International Policies (4 subsections, paragraphs 98 -110).  Each of these four Action Areas are further broken into 3 or 4 sub areas, and then each of those is broken down into a few numbered paragraphs - most of which are a few sentences long.  The use of 16 Boxes is fine.  Only 3 Figures is light for this many words.  I think any policy topic about energy use by the poor can fit within this framework of the 4 Action Areas of Section 3.       A5    The 3 page Executive Summary captures the main document statements (but not the seriousness of the stove topic).  The Introductory Chapter (1 page, 6 paragraphs) and Conclusions Chapter (1 page, 6 paragraphs) are appropriately short and concise - neither offering anything new, but also never mentioning the connections between stoves and GW.   B.  Your Question #1  (On Your Section 2) Q1a.  Poverty-environment links:  Do you agree that the major links havebeen captured?  (RWL2): I unfortunately now must say emphatically "no" (for the area I consider most important - stoves) - for these reasons:     a.    The important (and removable) connection between stoves and GW has not been mentioned.     b.  The hugely important contribution of charcoal-making to GW is not mentioned.     c.  Important alternative household energy approaches that would have much less GW impact are not discussed at all (solar cookers, processed fuels, biogas, manufactured liquid fuels, etc.)     d.  The many important links between biomass-burning stoves and the poor (almost 100% overlap) is only hinted at.     e.  The link between stoves and user health is only mentioned - not documented.  The cited references are not as current or extensive as possible. Q1b Have they been persuasively described and exemplified?  (RWL):  No - examples given above.  More detail given in Section D.Q1c.   Do you have other case studies, examples or references to offer?(RWL):  Only one 1999 paper by Professor Kirk Smith has been cited.  Many more are possible  - a few were given in my response #1, and more can be given if there is agreement that more needs to be written and I receive a request for more.  The relationship between stoves and both health and GW still needs further development; the WSSD can provide the impetus for that much needed additional work. C.  Your Question #2 (On your section 3) 2.a  Policy responses:  Do you agree with the policy proposals that areoutlined in general in the paper?(RWL2):  Previously "yes" - now I must say that there are essentially no specific proposals of GW significance - especially on stoves. 2b.  What additional ones would you suggest?  (RWL2):  I previously said that I liked the final sentence of the summary:  "In the context of global climate change, an effective international agreement on curbing greenhouse gasemissions and enhancing carbon sequestration is essential."  I now find that almost this exact sentence appears at the end (pxi) of the Executive Summary - but the term"carbon sequestration" never again appears in the main body of the paper even though the planting of wood lots to ease the work of poor women and children would obviously be a major policy benefit.  The idea of  "international agreement" does appear in paragraphs 39 and 106 - but with no detailed recommendations - and especially none even peripherally helpful to bringing stoves into the GW dialog (such as mentioning the important failure of the protocols to discuss Carbon Monoxide (CO)). 2c.  What further detail would you add to make the proposals more specific?(RWL2)  Previously I mentioned a need to discuss the Chinese and Indian national programs. Given the length of this response, and the many months still remaining in the dialog, I will return to this topic, if it appears others agree with the need to increase attention on the relationships between stoves and GW.    D.  Further Comments Related to this Report's Treatment of Stoves     D1.  For the benefit of readers not able to read the full paper, here is the full text of the only real "stoves" section:     "72.  In the area of human health, there is tremendous need for improved cook-stove technology to reduce indoor air pollution and associated acute respiratory infections. Efforts over the past three decades to develop and disseminate improved cook-stove technology provide important lessons on the challenges of technology adoption among poor households and communities. In the past, many such programmes have failed, but there have been countries where, especially in urban markets, the new technology has successfully taken off. The issue here as with all technology is to focus not just on the engineering side, but on the social, cultural, financial and marketing aspects of technical change (see Box 10)."     D2.   I like (the start of) paragraph 72.   Each sentence is strong.  My objection is mainly that this is not enough as preparation for the WSSD.  I strongly urge sentences that will emphasize the CO and particulates output from stoves, and that CO and particulates are not criterion pollutants.  I urge inclusion of the word "charcoal".  I urge mentioning options with lower GW potential (solar, etc).  I urge mention of the many problems associated with introducing stoves costing more than $10 to $20 - and this is likely possible only if there is no chimney (which I am pretty sure were not part of the Ethiopian and Kenyan success "Box" ).  I especially think there is a need for something here connecting to the later brief mention of policies that should come out of the WSSD.  Frankly, without some greater method of bringing the stove problem to the attention of the WSSD delegates, I believe there will be little or at least much slower progress on this important of providing additional assistance to the poor and to the environment.  The costs of making these GW gas reductions are probably as low as anything that can be done.   And yet costs are not even discussed in this paper, much less part of the formal WSSD agenda.  Some of the above is mentioned elsewhere in this submission - but I think all need mentioning here in this paragraph.  Your consultants have oversimplified both the problems and the opportunities in the world of stoves.     D3.   Figure 1 is bothersome.  It is only a graphical representation of the way Chapter 2 is organized - but implies causality because of the direction of arrows (and the lack of other arrows gives an inaccurate sense of lack of causality).  The topic of stoves only appears once here (in the "2 - Health"  subcategory "Pollutants".   This would be more meaningful if other arrows were inserted - such as somewhere showing that current stoves add significantly to global warming (and need not).      D4.  Figure 2.   Figure 2 may be accurate in showing that "environmental" health causes are of the magnitude shown, but I would feel better knowing that Lvovsky's data included recent work by Smith, Kammen, and others on the importance of stoves' health impacts.   I hope someone can provide a web site where I can check this reference:  (Lvovsky, K. 2001. Health and Environment. Environment Strategy Papers, No. 1. Environment Department, World Bank, Washington, D.C.)  We in the stove-improvement community are strongly inclined to believe the very recent WHO report that stoves-related diseases (not water-borne diseases) should be recognized the principal cause of illness in developing countries (Ref ________).  D5   Figure 3 provides some interesting information -but I don't yet see its relationship to the WSSD.  Perhaps showing more than 2 countries would help. D6.  Stoves and GW.  This last topic (of stoves adding to global warming) is never identified anywhere in this document - apparently the pollutant aspect of stoves is seen  by the consultant team as only leading to poorer health through Acute Respiratory Infection (ARI).  We in the "stoves" community find this to not be adequate - the WSSD must be apprised that there is plentiful evidence that most stoves are emitting a large amount of global warming gases other than CO2 (about which we of course have no fears).  They also must be apprised that there is great room for improvement in stove performance.   D7.  Charcoal.   There should be mention of the horrible global-warming practices of rural charcoal-making (done almost entirely by the rural very poor)..  Even worse, the only use of the word "charcoal" is in one sentence in Box 2 quoting a Tanzanian source where "charcoal" is coupled with the harmless words "honey, wild fruits and firewood."  On this and all aspects of looking at GW aspects of biomass consumption,  I recommend looking at calculations made by Professor Kirk Smith (Ref.  _________).  There is also a need here to discuss the hard tradeoffs between jobs and the environment for these charcoal makers - and ways that their need for jobs can be met in a more environmentally friendly fashion.     D7.    Non-standard alternatives.  I also am disappointed that there is no mention of other aspects of household cooking that have significant potential for reducing GW.  One is the area of pellets, briquettes, and other forms of processed biomass - biomass that is often anaerobically turned into the much worse GW pollutant - CH4 (methane), if not unproductively burned in the field with massive release of global warming gases  The WSSD should also consider such approaches as solar cookers, or prior conversion of biomass to gases (biogas), or liquids (such as ethanol or methanol).     D8.  Reasons for a Stoves Problem.   One must ask why there has been little progress on improving stoves.  One answer is that the problem is difficult - maybe as difficult as anything the WSSD will have to consider.  The combustion process involves hundreds if not thousands of chemical reactions - all dependent on temperatures, time, moisture contents, type of fuel, etc.  It is relatively easy to have bad (incomplete combustion) results.  But I strongly believe that even small funding would have led to much improved stove designs - and there has been essentially zero national or international funding.  As I said earlier, the Chinese work has been the best of the limited amount so far supported.  But to the best of my knowledge, they never worked on the GW aspects of stoves - "only" on improving efficiency (but "only" has been a major success).   From tombreed at attbi.com Wed Feb 6 15:07:49 2002 From: tombreed at attbi.com (Thomas Reed) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:36 2004 Subject: Water in wood... Message-ID: <000f01c1af67$1dedcaa0$49b2ff0c@attbi.com> Dear All:   One of the most important variables in wood and biomass fuels is the moisture content.  Bone dry wood requires VERY little heat for pyrolysis - possibly as low as zero!, but certainly less than 1 MJ/kg.  However, slow pyrolysis must vaporize the water (at 100 C) before decomposing the cellulose/hemicellulose/ lignin.    The relationship between humidity and equilibrium moisture content of wood is discussed in the book:   "Water in Wood", Syracuse Wood Science e Series. #4, Syracuse Univ. Press, 1972).    The moisture content of wood when cut varies greatly, but can range up to 250% (dry basis, 71%, wet basis*)   The MCDB of wood is much less than humidity and for instance in Douglas-fir is approximately:   Humidity(%)            Eq. MCDB(%)    Eq. MCWB(%) 0                                    0                        0 20%                               6                        5.6 40                                  8                        7.4 60                                  9                        8.2 80                                15                        13.0 90                                20                        16.7 100                            >30                        >23   Thus the equilibrium MC is MUCH lower than the air humidity, PROVIDED enough time and air is allowed for the biomass/wood to SEASON.  (1 season for wood well stacked, 2 months for chunks, never for chips and sawdust, since no air can pass through.)   This is a very important problem in biomass thermal conversion and I would appreciate any comments from our more expert lurkers.      TOM REED       BEF   Thus relatively high average humidity can greatly increase the energy required for pyrolysis, gasification and combustion.    *If Mw is the weight of water in a sample of biomass and Mb is the weight of the dry biomass,  the moisture content (dry basis) is   MCDB = Mw/Mb      and the moisture content (wet basis) is   MCWB = Mw/(Mw+Mb).   The MCWB = (MCDB/(100 MCDB + 100))   MCDB                MCWB 0                            100 50                            33 100                          50 250                          71   MCWB is what most people would instinctively use.  However, it varies daily.  Those buying wood by weight want to know how much wood is present, so use MCDB.  BEGIN:VCARD VERSION:2.1 N:Reed;Thomas;B;Dr. FN:Thomas B Reed NICKNAME:Tom ORG:Biomass Energy Foundation;Publication, Consulting, Engineering TITLE:President TEL;WORK;VOICE:303 278 0558 TEL;HOME;VOICE:303 278 0558 TEL;CELL;VOICE:303 913 2074 TEL;WORK;FAX:303 278 0558 TEL;HOME;FAX:303 278 0558 ADR;WORK:;;1810 Smith Rd.;Golden;CO;80401;USA LABEL;WORK;ENCODING=QUOTED-PRINTABLE:1810 Smith Rd.=0D=0AGolden, CO 80401=0D=0AUSA ADR;HOME;ENCODING=QUOTED-PRINTABLE:;;1810 Smith Rd=0D=0A=0D=0A;Golden;CO;80401;United States LABEL;HOME;ENCODING=QUOTED-PRINTABLE:1810 Smith Rd=0D=0A=0D=0A=0D=0AGolden, CO 80401=0D=0AUnited States X-WAB-GENDER:2 URL;HOME:http://www.woodgas.com URL;WORK:http://www.woodgas.com BDAY:20010315 EMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:tombreed@attbi.com REV:20020206T233634Z END:VCARD - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon For information about CHAMBERS STOVES http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm From tombreed at attbi.com Thu Feb 7 14:30:51 2002 From: tombreed at attbi.com (Thomas Reed) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:36 2004 Subject: "STOVE IMAGES" In-Reply-To: <95D79C0E58C91C429B002DD09D17D8E81AEA03@nt047.gtz.de> Message-ID: <009401c1b032$bf806280$49b2ff0c@attbi.com> Dear Stovers:   Dear Stovers and Anke Weymann:   I wrote as follows to Anke Weymann at GTZ about the BEST BOOK I have seen on stoves yet.... > Thank you for sending me the beautiful STOVE IMAGES book.  Please transmit this note to Westhoff and Germann with my aappreciation for all their beautiful work.    I belong to the STOVES discussion group at Stoves@crest.org (Crest = the Center for Renewable Energy and Sustainable Technology).  It consists of about 300 people around the world discussion the problem of improving world cooking with biomass.    I would like to make them aware of your book and the possibility of getting a copy without embarassing (bankrupting) GTZ.  (Thanks for sending a copy to my colleague Joe Messina).  Would you like to make an announcement to them or should I forget it?   It is a shame to have such a great book drift into unavailable obscurity and I would be happy to do whatever you think appropriate to keep it alive.   Yours truly,   TOM REED          THE BIOMASS ENERGY FOUNDATION PRESS  (ETC.)
I heard from Anke and she says they still have a few copies left if you write her....   Yours truly,      TOM REED   ----- Original Message -----
From: Weymann Anke 4556 To: Thomas Reed Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2002 8:28 AM Subject: AW: "STOVE IMAGES" Dear Tom Reed, thanks for your appreciation of the book. When Stoves Images was in preparation I worked in the stove dissemination project in Mali and we made our contribution to the book (the picture on the cover is one of our photos we sent ) - so it's nice to know that people like it. I'm sorry to say that Bea Westhoff died last year, she would have been glad about your reaction. During her last years she worked in our regional programm 'Household Energy Programme Sahel'. I try to forward your message to Dorsi Germann and to other colleagues of Bea who worked also a lot for this book. Feel free to forward your message about the publication to other colleagues. There are still some copies available.  You are right that the informations and pictures should be more available. But Stove Images has been produced by the European Commission and we don't have the electronic version. Anyway- I'll care about this question.   I'll send you the journal 'Boiling Point' produced by ITDG in collaboration with HEP, if you don't know yet.  Best regards Anke Weymann   From tombreed at attbi.com Thu Feb 7 14:36:49 2002 From: tombreed at attbi.com (Thomas Reed) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:36 2004 Subject: Tom Reed's new Email address.. Message-ID: <00b301c1b033$93e89b00$49b2ff0c@attbi.com> Dear all:   Dear All:Please cancelreedtb2@cs.comand add=20tombreed@attbi.com(In December @home.com went bankrupt leaving many thousand users high and dry.  Fortunately I could use my old Compuserve Email address over Xmas...   Now back to cable - forever I hope).Yours truly,     TOM REED     BEF STOVEWORKS   BEF GASWORKS  BEGIN:VCARD VERSION:2.1 N:Reed;Thomas;B;Dr. FN:Thomas B Reed NICKNAME:Tom ORG:Biomass Energy Foundation;Publication, Consulting, Engineering TITLE:President TEL;WORK;VOICE:303 278 0558 TEL;HOME;VOICE:303 278 0558 TEL;CELL;VOICE:303 913 2074 TEL;WORK;FAX:303 278 0558 TEL;HOME;FAX:303 278 0558 ADR;WORK:;;1810 Smith Rd.;Golden;CO;80401;USA LABEL;WORK;ENCODING=QUOTED-PRINTABLE:1810 Smith Rd.=0D=0AGolden, CO 80401=0D=0AUSA ADR;HOME;ENCODING=QUOTED-PRINTABLE:;;1810 Smith Rd=0D=0A=0D=0A;Golden;CO;80401;United States LABEL;HOME;ENCODING=QUOTED-PRINTABLE:1810 Smith Rd=0D=0A=0D=0A=0D=0AGolden, CO 80401=0D=0AUnited States X-WAB-GENDER:2 URL;HOME:http://www.woodgas.com URL;WORK:http://www.woodgas.com BDAY:20010315 EMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:tombreed@attbi.com REV:20020208T000010Z END:VCARD - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon For information about CHAMBERS STOVES http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm From psanders at ilstu.edu Fri Feb 8 05:28:01 2002 From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:36 2004 Subject: "STOVE IMAGES" In-Reply-To: <95D79C0E58C91C429B002DD09D17D8E81AEA03@nt047.gtz.de> Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20020208084832.01b521c0@mail.ilstu.edu> All Stovers,   (and greetings to GTZ friends). If permission by the copyright holder is given, a book can be scanned and placed on the Internet.  I recently (with help from you 17-year old son and a retired secretary) prepared for placement  on the Internet an entire book of about 350 A4 (letter-size) pages with graphics (color or B/W) into a file smaller than 10 meg.  The site is not quite installed for viewing yet. We were using DjVu software ("dejavu") from Lizardtech.   Go to www.lizardtech.com for info about it. Very powerful, great for graphics, inexpensive, and with a free downloadable reader.  Just like Abobe Acrobat PDF files, you must have a reader to view the files.  It installs itself very easily. The task of preparing the stoves book (or other books) for Internet placement is quite easy and could be done almost anywhere that has a scanner and a PC Windows computer. Paul At 04:54 PM 2/7/02 -0700, Thomas Reed wrote: Dear Stovers:   Dear Stovers and Anke Weymann:   I wrote as follows to Anke Weymann at GTZ about the BEST BOOK I have seen on stoves yet.... > Thank you for sending me the beautiful STOVE IMAGES book.  Please transmit this note to Westhoff and Germann with my aappreciation for all their beautiful work.    I belong to the STOVES discussion group at Stoves@crest.org (Crest = the Center for Renewable Energy and Sustainable Technology).  It consists of about 300 people around the world discussion the problem of improving world cooking with biomass.    I would like to make them aware of your book and the possibility of getting a copy without embarassing (bankrupting) GTZ.  (Thanks for sending a copy to my colleague Joe Messina).  Would you like to make an announcement to them or should I forget it?   It is a shame to have such a great book drift into unavailable obscurity and I would be happy to do whatever you think appropriate to keep it alive.   Yours truly,   TOM REED          THE BIOMASS ENERGY FOUNDATION PRESS  (ETC.) I heard from Anke and she says they still have a few copies left if you write her....   Yours truly,      TOM REED   ----- Original Message ----- From: Weymann Anke 4556 To: Thomas Reed Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2002 8:28 AM Subject: AW: "STOVE IMAGES" Dear Tom Reed, thanks for your appreciation of the book. When Stoves Images was in preparation I worked in the stove dissemination project in Mali and we made our contribution to the book (the picture on the cover is one of our photos we sent ) - so it's nice to know that people like it. I'm sorry to say that Bea Westhoff died last year, she would have been glad about your reaction. During her last years she worked in our regional programm 'Household Energy Programme Sahel'. I try to forward your message to Dorsi Germann and to other colleagues of Bea who worked also a lot for this book. Feel free to forward your message about the publication to other colleagues. There are still some copies available.  You are right that the informations and pictures should be more available. But Stove Images has been produced by the European Commission and we don't have the electronic version. Anyway- I'll care about this question.   I'll send you the journal 'Boiling Point' produced by ITDG in collaboration with HEP, if you don't know yet. Best regards Anke Weymann   Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D.,  Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00 Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University Normal, IL  61790-4400   Voice:  309-438-7360;  FAX:  309-438-5310 E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders From psanders at ilstu.edu Fri Feb 8 06:05:15 2002 From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:36 2004 Subject: Quenching char Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20020208100837.01b524c0@mail.ilstu.edu> Stovers, In my Juntos gasifier I produce some char. How can I extinguish it so that I can save it? Dump into water bucket? Spread it out and sprinkle with water ? Smoother? (has not worked well because small air leaks will sustain the char burning.) If quenched with plenty of water, with the water-soaked char have any undesirable characteristics? Such as the popping sparks in the one briquette I had from MZ. Thanks, Paul Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00 Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310 E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon For information about CHAMBERS STOVES http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm From elk at wananchi.com Fri Feb 8 06:18:05 2002 From: elk at wananchi.com (elk) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:36 2004 Subject: Quenching char In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20020208100837.01b524c0@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <001901c1b0bb$40adf600$f640083e@pentium333> Paul;   We use a metal drum with a small pin-hole in the tight-fitting top to prevent the inevitable vacuum from distorting the vessel. A lid with a spring-clasp band is particularly suitable.   For larger quantities we use a drum for 30 minutes, then spread in metal sheets and sprinkle water. Some turning may be necessary to ensure complete quenching. If too much water is used, then the char must be (air/sun) dried prior to use........ as we convert particulate char to briquettes, we limit final moisture content to 'briquettable' levels.   elk ----------------------------------------------Elsen L.Karstad, Nairobi Kenyaelk@wananchi.comhttp://www.chardust.com/    
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul S. Anderson To: Apolinário J Malawene ; Bob and Karla Weldon ; Ed Francis ; Tsamba--Alberto Julio ; Lily Coyle ; stoves@crest.org Sent: Friday, February 08, 2002 7:13 PM Subject: Quenching char Stovers,In my Juntos gasifier I produce some char.   How can I extinguish it so that I can save it?Dump into water bucket?Spread it out and sprinkle with water ?Smoother?  (has not worked well because small air leaks will sustain the char burning.)If quenched with plenty of water, with the water-soaked char have any undesirable characteristics?  Such as the popping sparks in the one briquette I had from MZ.Thanks,PaulPaul S. Anderson, Ph.D.,  Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State UniversityNormal, IL  61790-4400   Voice:  309-438-7360;  FAX:  309-438-5310E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders-Stoves List Archives and Website:http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction)http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original)Stoves List Moderators:Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.netAlex English, english@adan.kingston.netElsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.comList-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html-Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:http://www.bioenergy2002.orghttp://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergyhttp://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasificationhttp://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html CarbonFor information about CHAMBERS STOVEShttp://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm From Carefreeland at aol.com Fri Feb 8 08:15:19 2002 From: Carefreeland at aol.com (Carefreeland@aol.com) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:36 2004 Subject: Quenching char Message-ID: <73.1a80ea82.29957002@aol.com> Stovers, In my Juntos gasifier I produce some char.   How can I extinguish it so that I can save it? Dump into water bucket? Spread it out and sprinkle with water ? Smoother?  (has not worked well because small air leaks will sustain the char burning.) If quenched with plenty of water, with the water-soaked char have any undesirable characteristics?  Such as the popping sparks in the one briquette I had from MZ. Thanks, Paul Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D.,  Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00 Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University Normal, IL  61790-4400   Voice:  309-438-7360;  FAX:  309-438-5310 E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders > Paul, if you can't find a clean old paint can or some metal container with a tight lid, and the char is in big pieces, try just burying it in dry sand.         How about a ceramic container?        A clay pot with a cover on it, and wet clay or earth as a seal?        How about pyrex or heat resistant glass container?        Just cut off the air.             Dan Dimiduk From legacyfound at hotmail.com Sat Feb 9 23:18:44 2002 From: legacyfound at hotmail.com (richard stanley) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:36 2004 Subject: Biomass and EnergySecurity in sub-Saharan Africa Message-ID: Dear Evans, Paul et al, I am based in Uganda and will be travelling throughout the East and Central Africa region over the next year following up on existing community / microenterprise based biomass briquetting projects and encouraging new ones, through the lead various groups we have trained. In noting the Johannesburg conference, as kindly presented to our stoves group through Paul, I wonder how our group could become involved and what your requirements schedule and resources will be for participation. The principles of our group have 34 years experience in the area of community driven , participatory R&D, extension and awareness promotion of appropriate/ sustainable and renewable energy technologies in the region. We could offer you an ongoing facility for demonstrations of production be it the basic handpress level or the more recent mechanised level and application, whether with three stone fireplace or any number of the new stoves out there today. As a non profit we would look forward to possible sponsorship for attending the conference. Look forward to hearing from you,with the feeling that we have already met through Richard Jones also at CGIAR, Richard Stanley www.legacyfound.org >From: "Kituyi, Evans" >To: "Paul S. Anderson" , stoves@crest.org >CC: Apolinario J Malawene , Bob and Karla >Weldon , Ed Francis , > Tsamba--Alberto Julio , Lily Coyle > >Subject: RE: Biomass and EnergySecurity in sub-Saharan Africa >Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 04:07:41 -0800 > >Paul, >thanks for your response--sorry you had to go through many steps to have it >read. There are indeed many activities of interest to us that we could be >involved in at J'burg. As Mathew Owens of Chardust pointed out to me today, >many success stories in biomass conversion technologies exist that could be >displayed. Of more importance (I guess) is designing appropriate policy >advocacy strategies for J'burg and beyond since it is emerging that the >difficulty in getting technologies across is mainly at the political level. > >Is there already a side-event being set up on biomass/stoves with a view to >discussing their role in sustainable development for the J'burg meeting? or >Could stovers think about having one? > >Evans > >-----Original Message----- >From: Paul S. Anderson [mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu] >Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 6:34 PM >To: Kituyi, Evans; stoves@crest.org >Cc: Apolinario J Malawene; Bob and Karla Weldon; Ed Francis; >Tsamba--Alberto >Julio; Lily Coyle >Subject: Re: Biomass and EnergySecurity in sub-Saharan Africa > > >Stovers, > >We all worry about attachments. I opened Evans' document without any >evident problems (sometimes they come later, but my virus protection is >recently up-dated). > >Anyway, I took the liberty to copy the document and insert it below inside >this e-mail message. Some format changes might make it look messy, the is >my fault (and MicroSoft's) and not from Evans. > >Footnote numbers did NOT copy at all. > >If hard to read, you might want to do "select all" and then paste into Word >(or other word processor) which will bring it back close to the pages >structure intended. > >Content: A quick look tells me that Evans has a very useful document that >is important for understanding the fuel issues facing Africa south of the >Sahara. > >I plan on being at the Jo-burg conference in early September, and Evans >also, it seems. We need to prepare ourselves, and Evans paper is a >starting >point. > >To Evans: can you (and others) tell us more about activities of interest >to >us about stoves and fuels at the Jo-burg conference? What opportunities >are there for presentations, demonstration, participations? > >When I previously mentioned the conference, one of the few responses was >from Tom R. who played down its importance as being more talk than action. >I can agree with Tom. But I am still going to attend and I am hoping for >more "stover" involvement. > >Info item: My work duties will put me in Mozambique from early July to mid >October 2002, so I expect to be "local" for the conference and might be >able >to assist a few others (once I figure our myself the options at the Jo-burg >conference. > >Paul > >At 01:49 AM 2/1/02 -0800, Kituyi, Evans wrote: > > >Dear Stovers, >I would appreciate comments on the attached 3page document on the future of >energy for households in sub-Saharan Africa. Thanks > >Evans Kituyi > > >Energy and the Road To Johannesburg >Issues and Concerns for sub-Saharan African Households > >Evans Kituyi >African Centre for Technology Studies, Nairobi, Kenya. E-mail: >e.kituyi@cgiar.org > > >Introduction > >Come September 2001, world governments will gather in Johannesburg, South >Africa for the World Summit for Sustainable Development (WSSD), also dubbed >the Rio+10 conference, and sustainable development will be the key phrase >at >the heart of the conference's theme. The purpose of this summit will be to >review the progress so far made by nations in implementing the Agenda 21, >identify the key challenges faced in the implementation process, and to map >out the way forward towards a sustainable future. One of the key reasons >why >sustainable development was not achieved in anticipated levels in >sub-Saharan Africa over the past decade was the poor access to cleaner >commercial energy by the majority of its population. > >It is imperative that most of the population gains access to this form of >energy as a prerequisite for sustainable development. Unfortunately, the >people in the region cannot achieve this on their own and must be assisted >in various aspects by the international community. One appropriate forum >where Africa could present its case is the WSSD, through the African >Ministerial Statementwhich will be the official channel for bringing the >continents concerns to world attention. In their recent preparatory >committee meeting (PrepCom) for the Summit held in Nairobi, the African >Ministers noted this general energy concern. However, their arguments >tended >to be biased, focusing more on RETs such as Solar PV, wind, and increased >development of hydro, failing to explicitly recognize the role of >biomassfrequently implied in the meetings as synonymous with technological >backwardness. > >However, it is unlikely that a significant fraction of sub-Saharan African >households will gain access to modern, cleaner forms of energy (mainly >electricity for lighting and kerosene for cooking) as sustainable >substitutes to fuelwood in the short or even medium terms. Most will >continue depending almost exclusively on biomass. This situation is not >strongly highlighted in the ministerial report and it is unlikely thatin >its >current stateit will elicit world attention on the energy poverty status of >the region. > >Significant Increase in Access to Cleaner Commercial Energy is Unlikely > >Africa starts the 21st Century as the poorest, the most technologically >backward, the most debt distressed, and the most marginalised region in the >world. Drought, disease, civil conflict and poor governance make the >situation worse. Consequently, Africans' quality of life continued to erode >over the last decade. In sub-Saharan Africa, 52% of people live on less >than >US$1 per day and urban poverty is increasingly severe, with about 43% of >urban dwellers living below the poverty line of US$47 per month per capita. >Opportunities for employment and household level income generating have >diminishedhence the family savings to facilitate transition to modern >energy >are minimal. > >High urbanization ratemainly increasing the urban poor populationis putting >more demand for charcoal, and by extension the forests and other biomass >sources. Although the cost of renewable energy technologies (RETs) have >fallen over the past decade, the magnitude of the drop has not been >significant enough to compete kerosenethe commonly used liquid fossil fuel. >Significant awareness of RETs has, however, been raised in many countries >in >Africa. It is therefore reasonable to infer that biomass (mainly firewood >and charcoal) will remain the key sources of energy for most of the >population in sub-Saharan Africa for several decades to come. This >observation is shared by various institutions including the World Energy >Council, the Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO), and the UNDP. > >Therefore little change, if any, will occur in as far as increasing the >percentage of the population (both the rural and urban poor). Our pessimism >in this regard is shared by the African Union which proposes a modest 25% >increase in the number of households with access to cleaner commercial >fuels >by the year 2025 (from the current 10% to the projected 35%). This is part >of the proposed objectives of the Union's widely accepted pathway towards >sustainable development, the New African Initiative (NAI). > >Despite these scenarios, the African Ministers give no special attention to >biomass energy in their draft common position to the WSSD. One can >therefore >assume that it is generalized under renewable energy. That the majority of >Africans will not have their livelihoods (in general and energy poverty in >particular) improved is not good news for a continent in dire need of >sustainable development. This concern deserves strong recognition by the >world leaders meeting in Johannesburg in order to deliver special and >focused responses towards energy poverty reduction in the region. > >Towards Sustainable Energy Biomass Energy Production and Use > >The realistic picture that emerges from the preamble implies further >suffering by the majority (at least 65% of the population, using NAI's >projection as best case reference) of Africans as we enter the new >millennium. Biomass will remain the major source of energy for rural >populations, coupled with niche renewables such as Solar PV, provided they >are affordable, reliable and a proper payments system is established. These >sources themselves are under threat from overuse, creating additional >environmental challenges. The increasing distances to the biomass sources >in >many regions and the number of households that are increasingly being >conditioned to purchase their needs from markets, as well as the >ever-increasing fuelwood costs demonstrate this. > >The message of this brief is that whereas efforts to promote access by all >to modern commercial energy technologies must be encouraged, concurrent >agendas should be in place for the sake of the majority who will not have >the means to gain access to cleaner energy. For the short and medium terms, >any sustainable development solutions in the household energy sub-sector in >Africa must focus on biomass energy technology development and >dissemination. This includes sustainable fuelwood production and its >efficient consumption through adoption of improved energy technologies, >with >sustained efforts to eliminated barriers to access to commercial energy. >Many opponents to this school of thought do exist, who argue that nothing >but leapfrog by Africans to cleaner commercial energy should be promoted. >Whereas this could be necessarily true, it is neither practical nor >realistic on a short or medium term. > >It is from this realization that some institutions including the UNDP and >the G8 have been proactive at offering solutions towards accelerated >cost-efficient adoption of improved efficiency biomass conversion >technologies. Others such as International Energy Agency, the Shell >Foundation and the World Bank-ESMAP do finance studies aimed at identifying >barriers to the large-scale adoption of existing biomass technology >innovations. The objective is usually the attainment of environmentally >sound and cost-competitive bioenergy on a sustainable basis to make a >substantial contribution to meeting future energy demands. These >institutions provide a framework upon which future work in the region may >be >built upon through appropriate institutional linkages with many indigenous >organizations. > >Conclusion > >The energy poverty situation in Africa is serious and worsening, and the >majority of the population will continue depending on biomass for many >decades to come. The African Ministers recognize this well. Ironically, >however, the energy section in their joint message to the WSSD is weak on >this message, hence unlikely to trigger the world's interest and attention, >significant enough for the Summit to deliver a special deal on alleviating >energy poverty on the continent. There is still a chance, however, for >interested stakeholders to enrich the Ministerial Statement through >submissions at subsequent preparatory meetings or during the Summit itself. >An urgent regional roundtable on the plight of the majority of Africans >that >will still not gain access to commercial energy for many decades to come is >therefore recommended to generate a number of balanced positions for >presentation to the WSSD. > > African Preparatory Conference for the World Summit on Sustainable >Development, Nairobi, 18 October 2001. > ECA (2001) Transforming Africa's Economies. Economic Report on Africa >2000, >Economic Commission for Africa, 85p. Addis Ababa. > ECA (2001) Ibid. > WEO (2001) World Energy Outlook 2001. International Energy Agency, > http://www.iea.org/ > World Energy Council in its WEC Statement 2000. > Gustafson, D. (2001) The role of woodfuels in Africa, Food and >Agriculture >Organisation In Proceedings of the African High-Level Regional Meeting on >Energy and Sustainable Development (N. Wamukonya, Ed.) 1013 January 2001, >Nairobi, Kenya. pp 99101. > UNDP (2000) World Energy Assessment, UNDP/UNDESA/WEC. > WEC (2000) Energy for Tomorrow's WorldActing Now! WEC Statement 2000. >World >Energy Council. 146p. > Statement by Dr Klaus Toepfer, Executive Director, UNEP at the African >High >Level Regional Meeting on Energy and Sustainable Development for CSD 9. > Gustafson, D. (2001) Op Cit. > Kituyi, E. et al. (2001) Biofuel consumption rates and patterns in Kenya, >Biomass and Bioenergy 20:8399. > See various projects at UNDP Bioenergy page at > >http://www.undp.org/seed/eap/Projects/biomass. html > > G8 Renewable Energy Task Force Report. Corrado Clini and Mark >Moody-Stuart >(Co-Chairmen) 2001. 61p. > See website on bioenergy at > >http://www.iea.org/impagr/imporg/iadesc/bioener. htm > > See website at http://www.shellfoundation.org/ > for details on project types. > > >Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00 >Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University >Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310 >E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders > > >- >Stoves List Archives and Website: >http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/ >http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html > >Stoves List Moderators: >Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net >Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net >Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com > >List-Post: >List-Help: >List-Unsubscribe: >List-Subscribe: > >Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html >- >Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: >http://www.bioenergy2002.org >http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/ >http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml > >For information about CHAMBERS STOVES >http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon For information about CHAMBERS STOVES http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm From psanders at ilstu.edu Sun Feb 10 11:12:28 2002 From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:36 2004 Subject: Biomass and EnergySecurity in sub-Saharan Africa In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20020210151545.01b63410@mail.ilstu.edu> Richard, I did not know that you would be having a year in Africa. Off-list we can explore some possibilities to get together. Please send me the basics of your timetable of travels. Paul At 01:08 AM 2/10/02 -0800, richard stanley wrote: >Dear Evans, Paul et al, >I am based in Uganda and will be travelling throughout the East and >Central Africa region over the next year following up on existing >community / microenterprise based biomass briquetting projects and >encouraging new ones, through the lead various groups we have trained. > >In noting the Johannesburg conference, as kindly presented to our stoves >group through Paul, I wonder how our group could become involved and what >your requirements schedule and resources will be for participation. >The principles of our group have 34 years experience in the area of >community driven , participatory R&D, extension and awareness promotion of >appropriate/ sustainable and renewable energy technologies in the region. >We could offer you an ongoing facility for demonstrations of production be >it the basic handpress level or the more recent mechanised level and >application, whether with three stone fireplace or any number of the new >stoves out there today. > >As a non profit we would look forward to possible sponsorship for >attending the conference. > >Look forward to hearing from you,with the feeling that we have already met >through Richard Jones also at CGIAR, > >Richard Stanley >www.legacyfound.org > > >>From: "Kituyi, Evans" >>To: "Paul S. Anderson" , stoves@crest.org >>CC: Apolinario J Malawene , Bob and >>Karla Weldon , Ed Francis >>, >> Tsamba--Alberto Julio , Lily Coyle >> >>Subject: RE: Biomass and EnergySecurity in sub-Saharan Africa >>Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 04:07:41 -0800 >> >>Paul, >>thanks for your response--sorry you had to go through many steps to have it >>read. There are indeed many activities of interest to us that we could be >>involved in at J'burg. As Mathew Owens of Chardust pointed out to me today, >>many success stories in biomass conversion technologies exist that could be >>displayed. Of more importance (I guess) is designing appropriate policy >>advocacy strategies for J'burg and beyond since it is emerging that the >>difficulty in getting technologies across is mainly at the political level. >> >>Is there already a side-event being set up on biomass/stoves with a view to >>discussing their role in sustainable development for the J'burg meeting? or >>Could stovers think about having one? >> >>Evans >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Paul S. Anderson [mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu] >>Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 6:34 PM >>To: Kituyi, Evans; stoves@crest.org >>Cc: Apolinario J Malawene; Bob and Karla Weldon; Ed Francis; Tsamba--Alberto >>Julio; Lily Coyle >>Subject: Re: Biomass and EnergySecurity in sub-Saharan Africa >> >> >>Stovers, >> >>We all worry about attachments. I opened Evans' document without any >>evident problems (sometimes they come later, but my virus protection is >>recently up-dated). >> >>Anyway, I took the liberty to copy the document and insert it below inside >>this e-mail message. Some format changes might make it look messy, the is >>my fault (and MicroSoft's) and not from Evans. >> >>Footnote numbers did NOT copy at all. >> >>If hard to read, you might want to do "select all" and then paste into Word >>(or other word processor) which will bring it back close to the pages >>structure intended. >> >>Content: A quick look tells me that Evans has a very useful document that >>is important for understanding the fuel issues facing Africa south of the >>Sahara. >> >>I plan on being at the Jo-burg conference in early September, and Evans >>also, it seems. We need to prepare ourselves, and Evans paper is a starting >>point. >> >>To Evans: can you (and others) tell us more about activities of interest to >>us about stoves and fuels at the Jo-burg conference? What opportunities >>are there for presentations, demonstration, participations? >> >>When I previously mentioned the conference, one of the few responses was >>from Tom R. who played down its importance as being more talk than action. >>I can agree with Tom. But I am still going to attend and I am hoping for >>more "stover" involvement. >> >>Info item: My work duties will put me in Mozambique from early July to mid >>October 2002, so I expect to be "local" for the conference and might be able >>to assist a few others (once I figure our myself the options at the Jo-burg >>conference. >> >>Paul >> >>At 01:49 AM 2/1/02 -0800, Kituyi, Evans wrote: >> >> >>Dear Stovers, >>I would appreciate comments on the attached 3page document on the future of >>energy for households in sub-Saharan Africa. Thanks >> >>Evans Kituyi >> >> >>Energy and the Road To Johannesburg >>Issues and Concerns for sub-Saharan African Households >> >>Evans Kituyi >>African Centre for Technology Studies, Nairobi, Kenya. E-mail: >>e.kituyi@cgiar.org >> >> >>Introduction >> >>Come September 2001, world governments will gather in Johannesburg, South >>Africa for the World Summit for Sustainable Development (WSSD), also dubbed >>the Rio+10 conference, and sustainable development will be the key phrase at >>the heart of the conference's theme. The purpose of this summit will be to >>review the progress so far made by nations in implementing the Agenda 21, >>identify the key challenges faced in the implementation process, and to map >>out the way forward towards a sustainable future. One of the key reasons why >>sustainable development was not achieved in anticipated levels in >>sub-Saharan Africa over the past decade was the poor access to cleaner >>commercial energy by the majority of its population. >> >>It is imperative that most of the population gains access to this form of >>energy as a prerequisite for sustainable development. Unfortunately, the >>people in the region cannot achieve this on their own and must be assisted >>in various aspects by the international community. One appropriate forum >>where Africa could present its case is the WSSD, through the African >>Ministerial Statementwhich will be the official channel for bringing the >>continents concerns to world attention. In their recent preparatory >>committee meeting (PrepCom) for the Summit held in Nairobi, the African >>Ministers noted this general energy concern. However, their arguments tended >>to be biased, focusing more on RETs such as Solar PV, wind, and increased >>development of hydro, failing to explicitly recognize the role of >>biomassfrequently implied in the meetings as synonymous with technological >>backwardness. >> >>However, it is unlikely that a significant fraction of sub-Saharan African >>households will gain access to modern, cleaner forms of energy (mainly >>electricity for lighting and kerosene for cooking) as sustainable >>substitutes to fuelwood in the short or even medium terms. Most will >>continue depending almost exclusively on biomass. This situation is not >>strongly highlighted in the ministerial report and it is unlikely thatin its >>current stateit will elicit world attention on the energy poverty status of >>the region. >> >>Significant Increase in Access to Cleaner Commercial Energy is Unlikely >> >>Africa starts the 21st Century as the poorest, the most technologically >>backward, the most debt distressed, and the most marginalised region in the >>world. Drought, disease, civil conflict and poor governance make the >>situation worse. Consequently, Africans' quality of life continued to erode >>over the last decade. In sub-Saharan Africa, 52% of people live on less than >>US$1 per day and urban poverty is increasingly severe, with about 43% of >>urban dwellers living below the poverty line of US$47 per month per capita. >>Opportunities for employment and household level income generating have >>diminishedhence the family savings to facilitate transition to modern energy >>are minimal. >> >>High urbanization ratemainly increasing the urban poor populationis putting >>more demand for charcoal, and by extension the forests and other biomass >>sources. Although the cost of renewable energy technologies (RETs) have >>fallen over the past decade, the magnitude of the drop has not been >>significant enough to compete kerosenethe commonly used liquid fossil fuel. >>Significant awareness of RETs has, however, been raised in many countries in >>Africa. It is therefore reasonable to infer that biomass (mainly firewood >>and charcoal) will remain the key sources of energy for most of the >>population in sub-Saharan Africa for several decades to come. This >>observation is shared by various institutions including the World Energy >>Council, the Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO), and the UNDP. >> >>Therefore little change, if any, will occur in as far as increasing the >>percentage of the population (both the rural and urban poor). Our pessimism >>in this regard is shared by the African Union which proposes a modest 25% >>increase in the number of households with access to cleaner commercial fuels >>by the year 2025 (from the current 10% to the projected 35%). This is part >>of the proposed objectives of the Union's widely accepted pathway towards >>sustainable development, the New African Initiative (NAI). >> >>Despite these scenarios, the African Ministers give no special attention to >>biomass energy in their draft common position to the WSSD. One can therefore >>assume that it is generalized under renewable energy. That the majority of >>Africans will not have their livelihoods (in general and energy poverty in >>particular) improved is not good news for a continent in dire need of >>sustainable development. This concern deserves strong recognition by the >>world leaders meeting in Johannesburg in order to deliver special and >>focused responses towards energy poverty reduction in the region. >> >>Towards Sustainable Energy Biomass Energy Production and Use >> >>The realistic picture that emerges from the preamble implies further >>suffering by the majority (at least 65% of the population, using NAI's >>projection as best case reference) of Africans as we enter the new >>millennium. Biomass will remain the major source of energy for rural >>populations, coupled with niche renewables such as Solar PV, provided they >>are affordable, reliable and a proper payments system is established. These >>sources themselves are under threat from overuse, creating additional >>environmental challenges. The increasing distances to the biomass sources in >>many regions and the number of households that are increasingly being >>conditioned to purchase their needs from markets, as well as the >>ever-increasing fuelwood costs demonstrate this. >> >>The message of this brief is that whereas efforts to promote access by all >>to modern commercial energy technologies must be encouraged, concurrent >>agendas should be in place for the sake of the majority who will not have >>the means to gain access to cleaner energy. For the short and medium terms, >>any sustainable development solutions in the household energy sub-sector in >>Africa must focus on biomass energy technology development and >>dissemination. This includes sustainable fuelwood production and its >>efficient consumption through adoption of improved energy technologies, with >>sustained efforts to eliminated barriers to access to commercial energy. >>Many opponents to this school of thought do exist, who argue that nothing >>but leapfrog by Africans to cleaner commercial energy should be promoted. >>Whereas this could be necessarily true, it is neither practical nor >>realistic on a short or medium term. >> >>It is from this realization that some institutions including the UNDP and >>the G8 have been proactive at offering solutions towards accelerated >>cost-efficient adoption of improved efficiency biomass conversion >>technologies. Others such as International Energy Agency, the Shell >>Foundation and the World Bank-ESMAP do finance studies aimed at identifying >>barriers to the large-scale adoption of existing biomass technology >>innovations. The objective is usually the attainment of environmentally >>sound and cost-competitive bioenergy on a sustainable basis to make a >>substantial contribution to meeting future energy demands. These >>institutions provide a framework upon which future work in the region may be >>built upon through appropriate institutional linkages with many indigenous >>organizations. >> >>Conclusion >> >>The energy poverty situation in Africa is serious and worsening, and the >>majority of the population will continue depending on biomass for many >>decades to come. The African Ministers recognize this well. Ironically, >>however, the energy section in their joint message to the WSSD is weak on >>this message, hence unlikely to trigger the world's interest and attention, >>significant enough for the Summit to deliver a special deal on alleviating >>energy poverty on the continent. There is still a chance, however, for >>interested stakeholders to enrich the Ministerial Statement through >>submissions at subsequent preparatory meetings or during the Summit itself. >>An urgent regional roundtable on the plight of the majority of Africans that >>will still not gain access to commercial energy for many decades to come is >>therefore recommended to generate a number of balanced positions for >>presentation to the WSSD. >> >> African Preparatory Conference for the World Summit on Sustainable >>Development, Nairobi, 18 October 2001. >> ECA (2001) Transforming Africa's Economies. Economic Report on Africa 2000, >>Economic Commission for Africa, 85p. Addis Ababa. >> ECA (2001) Ibid. >> WEO (2001) World Energy Outlook 2001. International Energy Agency, >> http://www.iea.org/ >> World Energy Council in its WEC Statement 2000. >> Gustafson, D. (2001) The role of woodfuels in Africa, Food and Agriculture >>Organisation In Proceedings of the African High-Level Regional Meeting on >>Energy and Sustainable Development (N. Wamukonya, Ed.) 1013 January 2001, >>Nairobi, Kenya. pp 99101. >> UNDP (2000) World Energy Assessment, UNDP/UNDESA/WEC. >> WEC (2000) Energy for Tomorrow's WorldActing Now! WEC Statement 2000. World >>Energy Council. 146p. >> Statement by Dr Klaus Toepfer, Executive Director, UNEP at the African High >>Level Regional Meeting on Energy and Sustainable Development for CSD 9. >> Gustafson, D. (2001) Op Cit. >> Kituyi, E. et al. (2001) Biofuel consumption rates and patterns in Kenya, >>Biomass and Bioenergy 20:8399. >> See various projects at UNDP Bioenergy page at >> >>http://www.undp.org/seed/eap/Projects/biomass. html >> >> G8 Renewable Energy Task Force Report. Corrado Clini and Mark Moody-Stuart >>(Co-Chairmen) 2001. 61p. >> See website on bioenergy at >> >>http://www.iea.org/impagr/imporg/iadesc/bioener. htm >> >> See website at http://www.shellfoundation.org/ >> for details on project types. >> >> >>Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00 >>Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University >>Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310 >>E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders >> >> >>- >>Stoves List Archives and Website: >>http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/ >>http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html >> >>Stoves List Moderators: >>Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net >>Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net >>Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com >> >>List-Post: >>List-Help: >>List-Unsubscribe: >>List-Subscribe: >> >>Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html >>- >>Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: >>http://www.bioenergy2002.org >>http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/ >>http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml >> >>For information about CHAMBERS STOVES >>http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm > > > > >_________________________________________________________________ >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00 Rotary University Teacher Grantee to Mozambique >10 mo of 2001-2003 Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310 E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon For information about CHAMBERS STOVES http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm From thomas.stubbing at heat-win.co.uk Sun Feb 10 20:57:05 2002 From: thomas.stubbing at heat-win.co.uk (Thomas Stubbing) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:36 2004 Subject: Temporary 'Unsubscribe' In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20020210151545.01b63410@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <3C676AA6.DF9F31AB@heat-win.co.uk> Dear All, Later this week I shall unsubscribe and then, after a months holiday, re-subscribe. I shall be sorry to miss a month's messages but won't have time when I get back to go through them all. Keep up the good work! Regards, Thomas J Stubbing - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon For information about CHAMBERS STOVES http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm From tmiles at trmiles.com Sun Feb 10 21:09:07 2002 From: tmiles at trmiles.com (Tom Miles) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:36 2004 Subject: Temporary 'Unsubscribe' In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20020210151545.01b63410@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020210230758.028c8df0@mail.teleport.com> Thomas, Everyone needs a sabbatical. That's why we've archived the messages on the web since 1994. You can always search or browse them later. http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ Kind regards, Tom Miles At 06:54 AM 2/11/2002 +0000, Thomas Stubbing wrote: >Dear All, > >Later this week I shall unsubscribe and then, after a months holiday, >re-subscribe. > >I shall be sorry to miss a month's messages but won't have time when I get >back to >go through them all. > >Keep up the good work! > >Regards, > >Thomas J Stubbing > > > >- >Stoves List Archives and Website: >http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ >http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) >http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) > >Stoves List Moderators: >Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net >Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net >Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com > >List-Post: >List-Help: >List-Unsubscribe: >List-Subscribe: > >Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html >- >Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: >http://www.bioenergy2002.org >http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy >http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification >http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon > >For information about CHAMBERS STOVES >http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm Thomas R Miles tmiles@trmiles.com T R Miles, TCI Tel 503-292-0107 1470 SW Woodward Way Fax 503-292-2919 Portland, OR 97225 USA - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon For information about CHAMBERS STOVES http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm From E.KITUYI at CGIAR.ORG Mon Feb 11 01:30:10 2002 From: E.KITUYI at CGIAR.ORG (Kituyi, Evans) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:37 2004 Subject: Biomass and EnergySecurity in sub-Saharan Africa Message-ID: Thanks Richard, i would be glad to meet you too, when your turn to visit Kenya comes. Regarding sponsorship to J'burg, I wouldn't have much to say other than we are also trying various avenues. One of the latest involves the energy funding from Turner Foundation at the UNON in Nairobi. You may want to enquire directly with them. Evans -----Original Message----- From: richard stanley [mailto:legacyfound@hotmail.com] Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2002 12:08 PM To: E.KITUYI@CGIAR.ORG; psanders@ilstu.edu; stoves@crest.org Cc: ajmalawene01@hotmail.com; bobkarlaweldon@cs.com; cfranc@ilstu.edu; ajtsamba@zebra.uem.mz; astrozen2000@hotmail.com Subject: RE: Biomass and EnergySecurity in sub-Saharan Africa Dear Evans, Paul et al, I am based in Uganda and will be travelling throughout the East and Central Africa region over the next year following up on existing community / microenterprise based biomass briquetting projects and encouraging new ones, through the lead various groups we have trained. In noting the Johannesburg conference, as kindly presented to our stoves group through Paul, I wonder how our group could become involved and what your requirements schedule and resources will be for participation. The principles of our group have 34 years experience in the area of community driven , participatory R&D, extension and awareness promotion of appropriate/ sustainable and renewable energy technologies in the region. We could offer you an ongoing facility for demonstrations of production be it the basic handpress level or the more recent mechanised level and application, whether with three stone fireplace or any number of the new stoves out there today. As a non profit we would look forward to possible sponsorship for attending the conference. Look forward to hearing from you,with the feeling that we have already met through Richard Jones also at CGIAR, Richard Stanley www.legacyfound.org >From: "Kituyi, Evans" >To: "Paul S. Anderson" , stoves@crest.org >CC: Apolinario J Malawene , Bob and Karla >Weldon , Ed Francis , > Tsamba--Alberto Julio , Lily Coyle > >Subject: RE: Biomass and EnergySecurity in sub-Saharan Africa >Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 04:07:41 -0800 > >Paul, >thanks for your response--sorry you had to go through many steps to have it >read. There are indeed many activities of interest to us that we could be >involved in at J'burg. As Mathew Owens of Chardust pointed out to me today, >many success stories in biomass conversion technologies exist that could be >displayed. Of more importance (I guess) is designing appropriate policy >advocacy strategies for J'burg and beyond since it is emerging that the >difficulty in getting technologies across is mainly at the political level. > >Is there already a side-event being set up on biomass/stoves with a view to >discussing their role in sustainable development for the J'burg meeting? or >Could stovers think about having one? > >Evans > >-----Original Message----- >From: Paul S. Anderson [mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu] >Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 6:34 PM >To: Kituyi, Evans; stoves@crest.org >Cc: Apolinario J Malawene; Bob and Karla Weldon; Ed Francis; >Tsamba--Alberto >Julio; Lily Coyle >Subject: Re: Biomass and EnergySecurity in sub-Saharan Africa > > >Stovers, > >We all worry about attachments. I opened Evans' document without any >evident problems (sometimes they come later, but my virus protection is >recently up-dated). > >Anyway, I took the liberty to copy the document and insert it below inside >this e-mail message. Some format changes might make it look messy, the is >my fault (and MicroSoft's) and not from Evans. > >Footnote numbers did NOT copy at all. > >If hard to read, you might want to do "select all" and then paste into Word >(or other word processor) which will bring it back close to the pages >structure intended. > >Content: A quick look tells me that Evans has a very useful document that >is important for understanding the fuel issues facing Africa south of the >Sahara. > >I plan on being at the Jo-burg conference in early September, and Evans >also, it seems. We need to prepare ourselves, and Evans paper is a >starting >point. > >To Evans: can you (and others) tell us more about activities of interest >to >us about stoves and fuels at the Jo-burg conference? What opportunities >are there for presentations, demonstration, participations? > >When I previously mentioned the conference, one of the few responses was >from Tom R. who played down its importance as being more talk than action. >I can agree with Tom. But I am still going to attend and I am hoping for >more "stover" involvement. > >Info item: My work duties will put me in Mozambique from early July to mid >October 2002, so I expect to be "local" for the conference and might be >able >to assist a few others (once I figure our myself the options at the Jo-burg >conference. > >Paul > >At 01:49 AM 2/1/02 -0800, Kituyi, Evans wrote: > > >Dear Stovers, >I would appreciate comments on the attached 3page document on the future of >energy for households in sub-Saharan Africa. Thanks > >Evans Kituyi > > >Energy and the Road To Johannesburg >Issues and Concerns for sub-Saharan African Households > >Evans Kituyi >African Centre for Technology Studies, Nairobi, Kenya. E-mail: >e.kituyi@cgiar.org > > >Introduction > >Come September 2001, world governments will gather in Johannesburg, South >Africa for the World Summit for Sustainable Development (WSSD), also dubbed >the Rio+10 conference, and sustainable development will be the key phrase >at >the heart of the conference's theme. The purpose of this summit will be to >review the progress so far made by nations in implementing the Agenda 21, >identify the key challenges faced in the implementation process, and to map >out the way forward towards a sustainable future. One of the key reasons >why >sustainable development was not achieved in anticipated levels in >sub-Saharan Africa over the past decade was the poor access to cleaner >commercial energy by the majority of its population. > >It is imperative that most of the population gains access to this form of >energy as a prerequisite for sustainable development. Unfortunately, the >people in the region cannot achieve this on their own and must be assisted >in various aspects by the international community. One appropriate forum >where Africa could present its case is the WSSD, through the African >Ministerial Statementwhich will be the official channel for bringing the >continents concerns to world attention. In their recent preparatory >committee meeting (PrepCom) for the Summit held in Nairobi, the African >Ministers noted this general energy concern. However, their arguments >tended >to be biased, focusing more on RETs such as Solar PV, wind, and increased >development of hydro, failing to explicitly recognize the role of >biomassfrequently implied in the meetings as synonymous with technological >backwardness. > >However, it is unlikely that a significant fraction of sub-Saharan African >households will gain access to modern, cleaner forms of energy (mainly >electricity for lighting and kerosene for cooking) as sustainable >substitutes to fuelwood in the short or even medium terms. Most will >continue depending almost exclusively on biomass. This situation is not >strongly highlighted in the ministerial report and it is unlikely thatin >its >current stateit will elicit world attention on the energy poverty status of >the region. > >Significant Increase in Access to Cleaner Commercial Energy is Unlikely > >Africa starts the 21st Century as the poorest, the most technologically >backward, the most debt distressed, and the most marginalised region in the >world. Drought, disease, civil conflict and poor governance make the >situation worse. Consequently, Africans' quality of life continued to erode >over the last decade. In sub-Saharan Africa, 52% of people live on less >than >US$1 per day and urban poverty is increasingly severe, with about 43% of >urban dwellers living below the poverty line of US$47 per month per capita. >Opportunities for employment and household level income generating have >diminishedhence the family savings to facilitate transition to modern >energy >are minimal. > >High urbanization ratemainly increasing the urban poor populationis putting >more demand for charcoal, and by extension the forests and other biomass >sources. Although the cost of renewable energy technologies (RETs) have >fallen over the past decade, the magnitude of the drop has not been >significant enough to compete kerosenethe commonly used liquid fossil fuel. >Significant awareness of RETs has, however, been raised in many countries >in >Africa. It is therefore reasonable to infer that biomass (mainly firewood >and charcoal) will remain the key sources of energy for most of the >population in sub-Saharan Africa for several decades to come. This >observation is shared by various institutions including the World Energy >Council, the Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO), and the UNDP. > >Therefore little change, if any, will occur in as far as increasing the >percentage of the population (both the rural and urban poor). Our pessimism >in this regard is shared by the African Union which proposes a modest 25% >increase in the number of households with access to cleaner commercial >fuels >by the year 2025 (from the current 10% to the projected 35%). This is part >of the proposed objectives of the Union's widely accepted pathway towards >sustainable development, the New African Initiative (NAI). > >Despite these scenarios, the African Ministers give no special attention to >biomass energy in their draft common position to the WSSD. One can >therefore >assume that it is generalized under renewable energy. That the majority of >Africans will not have their livelihoods (in general and energy poverty in >particular) improved is not good news for a continent in dire need of >sustainable development. This concern deserves strong recognition by the >world leaders meeting in Johannesburg in order to deliver special and >focused responses towards energy poverty reduction in the region. > >Towards Sustainable Energy Biomass Energy Production and Use > >The realistic picture that emerges from the preamble implies further >suffering by the majority (at least 65% of the population, using NAI's >projection as best case reference) of Africans as we enter the new >millennium. Biomass will remain the major source of energy for rural >populations, coupled with niche renewables such as Solar PV, provided they >are affordable, reliable and a proper payments system is established. These >sources themselves are under threat from overuse, creating additional >environmental challenges. The increasing distances to the biomass sources >in >many regions and the number of households that are increasingly being >conditioned to purchase their needs from markets, as well as the >ever-increasing fuelwood costs demonstrate this. > >The message of this brief is that whereas efforts to promote access by all >to modern commercial energy technologies must be encouraged, concurrent >agendas should be in place for the sake of the majority who will not have >the means to gain access to cleaner energy. For the short and medium terms, >any sustainable development solutions in the household energy sub-sector in >Africa must focus on biomass energy technology development and >dissemination. This includes sustainable fuelwood production and its >efficient consumption through adoption of improved energy technologies, >with >sustained efforts to eliminated barriers to access to commercial energy. >Many opponents to this school of thought do exist, who argue that nothing >but leapfrog by Africans to cleaner commercial energy should be promoted. >Whereas this could be necessarily true, it is neither practical nor >realistic on a short or medium term. > >It is from this realization that some institutions including the UNDP and >the G8 have been proactive at offering solutions towards accelerated >cost-efficient adoption of improved efficiency biomass conversion >technologies. Others such as International Energy Agency, the Shell >Foundation and the World Bank-ESMAP do finance studies aimed at identifying >barriers to the large-scale adoption of existing biomass technology >innovations. The objective is usually the attainment of environmentally >sound and cost-competitive bioenergy on a sustainable basis to make a >substantial contribution to meeting future energy demands. These >institutions provide a framework upon which future work in the region may >be >built upon through appropriate institutional linkages with many indigenous >organizations. > >Conclusion > >The energy poverty situation in Africa is serious and worsening, and the >majority of the population will continue depending on biomass for many >decades to come. The African Ministers recognize this well. Ironically, >however, the energy section in their joint message to the WSSD is weak on >this message, hence unlikely to trigger the world's interest and attention, >significant enough for the Summit to deliver a special deal on alleviating >energy poverty on the continent. There is still a chance, however, for >interested stakeholders to enrich the Ministerial Statement through >submissions at subsequent preparatory meetings or during the Summit itself. >An urgent regional roundtable on the plight of the majority of Africans >that >will still not gain access to commercial energy for many decades to come is >therefore recommended to generate a number of balanced positions for >presentation to the WSSD. > > African Preparatory Conference for the World Summit on Sustainable >Development, Nairobi, 18 October 2001. > ECA (2001) Transforming Africa's Economies. Economic Report on Africa >2000, >Economic Commission for Africa, 85p. Addis Ababa. > ECA (2001) Ibid. > WEO (2001) World Energy Outlook 2001. International Energy Agency, > http://www.iea.org/ > World Energy Council in its WEC Statement 2000. > Gustafson, D. (2001) The role of woodfuels in Africa, Food and >Agriculture >Organisation In Proceedings of the African High-Level Regional Meeting on >Energy and Sustainable Development (N. Wamukonya, Ed.) 1013 January 2001, >Nairobi, Kenya. pp 99101. > UNDP (2000) World Energy Assessment, UNDP/UNDESA/WEC. > WEC (2000) Energy for Tomorrow's WorldActing Now! WEC Statement 2000. >World >Energy Council. 146p. > Statement by Dr Klaus Toepfer, Executive Director, UNEP at the African >High >Level Regional Meeting on Energy and Sustainable Development for CSD 9. > Gustafson, D. (2001) Op Cit. > Kituyi, E. et al. (2001) Biofuel consumption rates and patterns in Kenya, >Biomass and Bioenergy 20:8399. > See various projects at UNDP Bioenergy page at > >http://www.undp.org/seed/eap/Projects/biomass. html > > G8 Renewable Energy Task Force Report. Corrado Clini and Mark >Moody-Stuart >(Co-Chairmen) 2001. 61p. > See website on bioenergy at > >http://www.iea.org/impagr/imporg/iadesc/bioener. htm > > See website at http://www.shellfoundation.org/ > for details on project types. > > >Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00 >Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University >Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310 >E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders > > >- >Stoves List Archives and Website: >http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/ >http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html > >Stoves List Moderators: >Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net >Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net >Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com > >List-Post: >List-Help: >List-Unsubscribe: >List-Subscribe: > >Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html >- >Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: >http://www.bioenergy2002.org >http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/ >http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml > >For information about CHAMBERS STOVES >http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon For information about CHAMBERS STOVES http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm From woodcoal at mailbox.alkor.ru Mon Feb 11 02:32:52 2002 From: woodcoal at mailbox.alkor.ru (Yudkevich Yury) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:37 2004 Subject: Quenching char In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20020208100837.01b524c0@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <000401c1b2f8$8b54ab60$6f3fefc3@a1g0h5> Dear Paul and colleagues, ?harcoal it is necessary to cool in the intermediate bunker to 300 degrees ?. ?harcoal having such temperature it is possible to strew on the metal mesh conveyor by a thin layer and to blow by air. I am sure, you know why the fire inflames from a wind, and the match dies away. It is a problem of quantity of heat. This reason will allow charcoal to cool down, instead of to burn, if a layer thin, and flow large. ?harcoal will be saturated with oxygen and will not burn by transportation and storage Yury (Russia) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul S. Anderson" To: "............; Sent: Friday, February 08, 2002 7:13 PM Subject: Quenching char > Stovers, > > In my Juntos gasifier I produce some char. How can I extinguish it so > that I can save it? > > Dump into water bucket? > > Spread it out and sprinkle with water ? > > Smoother? (has not worked well because small air leaks will sustain the > char burning.) > > If quenched with plenty of water, with the water-soaked char have any > undesirable characteristics? Such as the popping sparks in the one > briquette I had from MZ. > > Thanks, > > Paul > Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon For information about CHAMBERS STOVES http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm From tombreed at attbi.com Mon Feb 11 04:06:56 2002 From: tombreed at attbi.com (Thomas Reed) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:37 2004 Subject: Quenching char In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20020208100837.01b524c0@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <007301c1b2fc$d87da460$49b2ff0c@attbi.com> Dear Char Quenchers:   In making our oil absorbent "Sea Sweep" we spray water on the product at a temperature above 300C to bring it down to 90 ----- Original Message -----
From: elk To: stoves@crest.org Sent: Friday, February 08, 2002 9:11 AM Subject: Re: Quenching char Paul;   We use a metal drum with a small pin-hole in the tight-fitting top to prevent the inevitable vacuum from distorting the vessel. A lid with a spring-clasp band is particularly suitable.   For larger quantities we use a drum for 30 minutes, then spread in metal sheets and sprinkle water. Some turning may be necessary to ensure complete quenching. If too much water is used, then the char must be (air/sun) dried prior to use........ as we convert particulate char to briquettes, we limit final moisture content to 'briquettable' levels.   elk ----------------------------------------------Elsen L.Karstad, Nairobi Kenyaelk@wananchi.comhttp://www.chardust.com/    
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul S. Anderson To: Apolinário J Malawene ; Bob and Karla Weldon ; Ed Francis ; Tsamba--Alberto Julio ; Lily Coyle ; stoves@crest.org Sent: Friday, February 08, 2002 7:13 PM Subject: Quenching char Stovers,In my Juntos gasifier I produce some char.   How can I extinguish it so that I can save it?Dump into water bucket?Spread it out and sprinkle with water ?Smoother?  (has not worked well because small air leaks will sustain the char burning.)If quenched with plenty of water, with the water-soaked char have any undesirable characteristics?  Such as the popping sparks in the one briquette I had from MZ.Thanks,PaulPaul S. Anderson, Ph.D.,  Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State UniversityNormal, IL  61790-4400   Voice:  309-438-7360;  FAX:  309-438-5310E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders-Stoves List Archives and Website:http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction)http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original)Stoves List Moderators:Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.netAlex English, english@adan.kingston.netElsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.comList-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html-Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:http://www.bioenergy2002.orghttp://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergyhttp://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasificationhttp://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html CarbonFor information about CHAMBERS STOVEShttp://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm From tombreed at attbi.com Mon Feb 11 04:09:55 2002 From: tombreed at attbi.com (Thomas Reed) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:37 2004 Subject: Quenching char In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20020208100837.01b524c0@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <007901c1b2fd$4243e3a0$49b2ff0c@attbi.com> Paul and All: Cooling/Quenching freshly made charcoal is not a trivial problem. If you cool it to room temperature without access to air it is stable (in my experience). However, even small air leaks will keep it burning for days..... If you dunk it in water it needs to be dried. So, spray with water until it stops making steam, (but no more H2O) and then isolate in a closed bucket until it cools naturally to room temperature. TOM REED BEF ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul S. Anderson" To: "Apolinário J Malawene" ; "Bob and Karla Weldon" ; "Ed Francis" ; "Tsamba--Alberto Julio" ; "Lily Coyle" ; Sent: Friday, February 08, 2002 9:13 AM Subject: Quenching char > Stovers, > > In my Juntos gasifier I produce some char. How can I extinguish it so > that I can save it? > > Dump into water bucket? > > Spread it out and sprinkle with water ? > > Smoother? (has not worked well because small air leaks will sustain the > char burning.) > > If quenched with plenty of water, with the water-soaked char have any > undesirable characteristics? Such as the popping sparks in the one > briquette I had from MZ. > > Thanks, > > Paul > Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00 > Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University > Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310 > E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders > > > - > Stoves List Archives and Website: > http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ > http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) > http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) > > Stoves List Moderators: > Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net > Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net > Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com > > List-Post: > List-Help: > List-Unsubscribe: > List-Subscribe: > > Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html > - > Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: > http://www.bioenergy2002.org > http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy > http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification > http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon > > For information about CHAMBERS STOVES > http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm > - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon For information about CHAMBERS STOVES http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm From ronallarson at qwest.net Mon Feb 11 07:16:40 2002 From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:37 2004 Subject: Quenching char In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20020208100837.01b524c0@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <00b201c1b320$622064a0$d7e56641@computer> Paul: As we get more people doing this, I am sure we will have more options than you have given below. By far the easiest will be closing up tight - and you might find that possible with some geometries. It seems possible (no studies) that dumping the hot charcoal in water may have the secondary benefit of cleaning up the water. Spreading on the ground works - seems to go out quickly for my fuels - if two pieces are not close together. Dumping in another closeable container has worked and keeps subsequent labor down. For some - moving hot to another better combustion apparatus for continued cooking will be best. What have you found best - and are you achieving 20-25% (by weight)? Ron ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul S. Anderson To: Apolinário J Malawene ; Bob and Karla Weldon ; Ed Francis ; Tsamba--Alberto Julio ; Lily Coyle ; Sent: Friday, February 08, 2002 9:13 AM Subject: Quenching char > Stovers, > > In my Juntos gasifier I produce some char. How can I extinguish it so > that I can save it? > > Dump into water bucket? > > Spread it out and sprinkle with water ? > > Smoother? (has not worked well because small air leaks will sustain the > char burning.) > > If quenched with plenty of water, with the water-soaked char have any > undesirable characteristics? Such as the popping sparks in the one > briquette I had from MZ. > > Thanks, > > Paul > Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00 > Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University > Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310 > E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders > > > - > Stoves List Archives and Website: > http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ > http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) > http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) > > Stoves List Moderators: > Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net > Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net > Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com > > List-Post: > List-Help: > List-Unsubscribe: > List-Subscribe: > > Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html > - > Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: > http://www.bioenergy2002.org > http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy > http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification > http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon > > For information about CHAMBERS STOVES > http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm > > - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon For information about CHAMBERS STOVES http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm From Carefreeland at aol.com Mon Feb 11 08:09:42 2002 From: Carefreeland at aol.com (Carefreeland@aol.com) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:37 2004 Subject: Quenching char Message-ID: <84.232c51cc.2999630c@aol.com> Stovers, It seems the more we talk about something, the more the mind checks the cracks for hidden ideas. What if we used a large thick cast aluminum vessel to draw the heat out of the char so quickly that it just went out? How about those large aluminum dutch ovens? You could get the advantage of cutting the air as well. just shake a little to stur the char. Well, there went another patent, just kidding. Dan Dimiduk. - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon For information about CHAMBERS STOVES http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm From psanders at ilstu.edu Mon Feb 11 08:21:34 2002 From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:37 2004 Subject: Quenching char In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20020208100837.01b524c0@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20020211121809.018029c0@mail.ilstu.edu> Stovers. Thanks for the suggestions. I am using the "re-seal-able paint can" approach recommended by Dan D. (It is a "Dandy" idea!) My quantities are quite small, and that way is very easy. No water, no spreading, no openness (unsafe), and when the lid is re-closed I can ignore it (except that I am careful to never put the can near anything that could cause problems if the combustion continues inside the can.) ELK mentioned a pin hole, but either my can leaks enough, or my quantity is so small that there is not inward crushing of the can. Would be very different in ELK's operation with much larger quantities. Remember, he is making charcoal, and I am saving the charcoal by-product of running a small, domestic-sized gasifier. Ron, I have not done any weighing yet. But by feel it is about a quarter or a fifth of the weight. Saturday I had 4 gasifiers burning side by side. Just checking stuff. Nothing worth reporting yet. Paul At 10:20 AM 2/11/02 -0700, Ron Larson wrote: >Paul: > > As we get more people doing this, I am sure we will have more options >than you have given below. > > By far the easiest will be closing up tight - and you might find that >possible with some geometries. > > It seems possible (no studies) that dumping the hot charcoal in water >may have the secondary benefit of cleaning up the water. > > Spreading on the ground works - seems to go out quickly for my fuels - >if two pieces are not close together. > > Dumping in another closeable container has worked and keeps subsequent >labor down. > > For some - moving hot to another better combustion apparatus for >continued cooking will be best. > > What have you found best - and are you achieving 20-25% (by weight)? > >Ron > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Paul S. Anderson >To: Apolinário J Malawene ; Bob and Karla Weldon >; Ed Francis ; Tsamba--Alberto >Julio ; Lily Coyle ; > >Sent: Friday, February 08, 2002 9:13 AM >Subject: Quenching char > > > > Stovers, > > > > In my Juntos gasifier I produce some char. How can I extinguish it so > > that I can save it? > > > > Dump into water bucket? > > > > Spread it out and sprinkle with water ? > > > > Smoother? (has not worked well because small air leaks will sustain the > > char burning.) > > > > If quenched with plenty of water, with the water-soaked char have any > > undesirable characteristics? Such as the popping sparks in the one > > briquette I had from MZ. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Paul > > Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00 > > Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University > > Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310 > > E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders > > > > > > - > > Stoves List Archives and Website: > > http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ > > http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) > > http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) > > > > Stoves List Moderators: > > Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net > > Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net > > Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com > > > > List-Post: > > List-Help: > > List-Unsubscribe: > > List-Subscribe: > > > > Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html > > - > > Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: > > http://www.bioenergy2002.org > > http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy > > http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification > > http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon > > > > For information about CHAMBERS STOVES > > http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm > > > > Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00 Rotary University Teacher Grantee to Mozambique >10 mo of 2001-2003 Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310 E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon For information about CHAMBERS STOVES http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm From psanders at ilstu.edu Mon Feb 11 08:38:50 2002 From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:37 2004 Subject: Great report on stoves Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20020211123806.01803d80@mail.ilstu.edu> Stovers, I do not remember who gave me the lead, but all stovers MUST READ at least the executive summary of the Oct 2000 publication "Poverty reduction aspects of successful improved household stove programmes". (Reference DFID KaR R7368). I have it saved as a PDF file, but better if someone can tell us where it is available on the Internet. The SOCIAL and the ECONOMIC impact aspects of stoves is well stated in this report. I am curious how many of us who are serious about stoves to help poor people are just learning the contents of this great report that has been out for nearly 18 months !! This is a MUST READ item about Kenya, Ethiopia, (mainly success stories) and Uganda (major lack of success.) Paul Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00 Rotary University Teacher Grantee to Mozambique >10 mo of 2001-2003 Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310 E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon For information about CHAMBERS STOVES http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Mon Feb 11 10:33:02 2002 From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:37 2004 Subject: Great report on stoves In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20020211123806.01803d80@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <20020211203236.GA5659@cybershamanix.com> Try http://www.etsu.com/dfid-kar-energy/html/r7368.html On Mon, Feb 11, 2002 at 12:46:37PM -0600, Paul S. Anderson wrote: > Stovers, > > I do not remember who gave me the lead, but all stovers MUST READ at least > the executive summary of the Oct 2000 publication "Poverty reduction > aspects of successful improved household stove > programmes". (Reference DFID KaR R7368). I have it saved as a PDF > file, but better if someone can tell us where it is available on the > Internet. The SOCIAL and the ECONOMIC impact aspects of stoves is well > stated in this report. > > I am curious how many of us who are serious about stoves to help poor > people are just learning the contents of this great report that has been > out for nearly 18 months !! This is a MUST READ item about Kenya, > Ethiopia, (mainly success stories) and Uganda (major lack of success.) > > Paul > Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00 > Rotary University Teacher Grantee to Mozambique >10 mo of 2001-2003 > Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University > Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310 > E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders > > > - > Stoves List Archives and Website: > http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ > http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) > http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) > > Stoves List Moderators: > Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net > Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net > Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com > > List-Post: > List-Help: > List-Unsubscribe: > List-Subscribe: > > Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html > - > Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: > http://www.bioenergy2002.org > http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy > http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification > http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon > > For information about CHAMBERS STOVES > http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon For information about CHAMBERS STOVES http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm From psanders at ilstu.edu Mon Feb 11 13:09:33 2002 From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:37 2004 Subject: SD and chunker In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20020208154218.00a8ef00@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20020211170851.017f9950@mail.ilstu.edu> Stovers (especially Ron and Tom about gasifiers) I have exchanged messages with Crispin about getting the right size of dense biomass (like wood chips/chunks, not like briquettes that seem lightweight for some purposes) for use in a gasifier. Apart from a "chunker" device, the real question is the size of the pieces that can be appropriately gasified in a NATURAL CONVECTION gasifier (IDD type), giving enough energy per minute for high-temp and especially for low-temp cooking. All thoughts are welcome. Paul At 09:27 PM 2/11/02 +0200, Crispin wrote: >Dear Paul > > >Can you make a "wood chipper" that will create chunky stuff of > >good wood? > >It is my true belief that making that wood into chunks takes about as much >energy as one would usefully get from burning it. Are you sure you want to >take this route? Such a machine will be expensive, though I have though of >a sort of heavily serrated blade that could work rather like a wood plane. >That might be able to take out chunks without having to saw them. A 'hog' >which is a conventional wood chipper has a huge motor on it. I mean >monstrous. You couldn't expect people to use one of those. > >What about creating the same flow with a carefully laid fire? Something >like a bed of horizontal pieces with another 90 degree layer on top? That >would breathe well and work with various sizes. > >Something you could consider is looking into (calculating) is the surface >area v.s. the volume of wood chunks that charcoal well. I haven't seen >anything on the subject on the internet but clearly it is relevant. Any >piece of wood that is going to get gassed off (sounds rude!) has to get >heated up sufficiently. The ability to get heated is related to its surface >area. Once you get a mathematical relationship worked out, you can choose >longer/larger pieces to work with and correctly predict how they will light >up and gas. Then the work-input to useful work-done ratio can be optimized, >or at least selected. > >When it comes to chunking, wood is pretty nasty stuff because it is so >darned strong. There is a lot of merit in using sawdust because it is >already processed into small pieces by the milling and sawing. Creating >chunks without creating another form of wealth at the same time is going to >be an economic problem, for energy and time input, that is, to useful fuel >output. > >My best idea so far is to make a large pruning hook mechanism that could >slice off the end of a pretty green branch up to about 2 inch diameter. >Making it about 5/8 inches long per cut would probably make chunks as they >are too big in diameter and too short to hold together as a cookie slice. >It would look rather like a paper guillotine with half-round holes for the >branches. There are some pruning hooks on long poles the hydro guys use >that will cut 1 inch so it will not be diffcult to gear that up. > >I am working on a Rotary funding project for Margaret right now so I had >better get to it. > >Regards >Crispin Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00 Rotary University Teacher Grantee to Mozambique >10 mo of 2001-2003 Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310 E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon For information about CHAMBERS STOVES http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm From woodcoal at mailbox.alkor.ru Tue Feb 12 01:21:58 2002 From: woodcoal at mailbox.alkor.ru (Yudkevich Yury) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:37 2004 Subject: Quenching char Message-ID: <004201c1b3b7$d5690060$703fefc3@a1g0h5> The friends and colleague, Water enters reaction with the heated charcoal on the equation C+H2O =CO+H2. It is classical " reaction of water gas ". The cooling of a charcoal by water it a) loss of a charcoal (output is reduced from 32 % to 20 %) and b) danger of explosion of water gas with air. Yury (Russia) From tombreed at attbi.com Tue Feb 12 04:07:04 2002 From: tombreed at attbi.com (Thomas Reed) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:37 2004 Subject: SD and chunker In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20020208154218.00a8ef00@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <004201c1b3c4$a0b59060$49b2ff0c@attbi.com> Dear Crispin, Paul and All: This is an important message for all of us involved with natural and forced draft "WoodGas" cooking. One advantage - and disadvantage of this new technology is that the amount of wood used to cook a meal is so small - typically 200 g for 1/2 hour of 2.5 kW cooking in a cylinder 8-10 cm in diameter - that it is sometimes a problem to get small enough pieces. It is an advantage if small twigs, wood chips, wood pellets, nut hulls, eucalyptus pods, straw "sticks" (see Joe Mellisa) etc. are available. It is a disadvantage if you have a 5 cm diameter or larger branch or log. In this case you will either have to reduce the size with a machete or saw, or use a rocket stove which prefers large diameter wood. Wet wood cuts more easily than dry. Once the size is reduced it will dry much faster and reach equilibrium water concentration. During World War II there was a civilian industry of producing 2X2X3 cm hardwood blocks to operate the civilian cars and trucks on WoodGas. A popular job when compared to serving on the Russian front. Yes, large sticks are inappropriate (so is cutting down trees). So look around for "biomass junk" for your cooking. Aprovecho to all (solving your problem with the means at hand...) Tom Reed ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul S. Anderson" To: "Crispin" Cc: "Apolinário J Malawene" ; "Bob and Karla Weldon" ; "Ed Francis" ; "Tsamba--Alberto Julio" ; "Lily Coyle" ; Sent: Monday, February 11, 2002 4:17 PM Subject: Re: SD and chunker > Stovers (especially Ron and Tom about gasifiers) > > I have exchanged messages with Crispin about getting the right size of > dense biomass (like wood chips/chunks, not like briquettes that seem > lightweight for some purposes) for use in a gasifier. > > Apart from a "chunker" device, the real question is the size of the pieces > that can be appropriately gasified in a NATURAL CONVECTION gasifier (IDD > type), giving enough energy per minute for high-temp and especially for > low-temp cooking. > > All thoughts are welcome. > > Paul > > At 09:27 PM 2/11/02 +0200, Crispin wrote: > >Dear Paul > > > > >Can you make a "wood chipper" that will create chunky stuff of > > >good wood? > > > >It is my true belief that making that wood into chunks takes about as much > >energy as one would usefully get from burning it. Are you sure you want to > >take this route? Such a machine will be expensive, though I have though of > >a sort of heavily serrated blade that could work rather like a wood plane. > >That might be able to take out chunks without having to saw them. A 'hog' > >which is a conventional wood chipper has a huge motor on it. I mean > >monstrous. You couldn't expect people to use one of those. > > > >What about creating the same flow with a carefully laid fire? Something > >like a bed of horizontal pieces with another 90 degree layer on top? That > >would breathe well and work with various sizes. > > > >Something you could consider is looking into (calculating) is the surface > >area v.s. the volume of wood chunks that charcoal well. I haven't seen > >anything on the subject on the internet but clearly it is relevant. Any > >piece of wood that is going to get gassed off (sounds rude!) has to get > >heated up sufficiently. The ability to get heated is related to its surface > >area. Once you get a mathematical relationship worked out, you can choose > >longer/larger pieces to work with and correctly predict how they will light > >up and gas. Then the work-input to useful work-done ratio can be optimized, > >or at least selected. > > > >When it comes to chunking, wood is pretty nasty stuff because it is so > >darned strong. There is a lot of merit in using sawdust because it is > >already processed into small pieces by the milling and sawing. Creating > >chunks without creating another form of wealth at the same time is going to > >be an economic problem, for energy and time input, that is, to useful fuel > >output. > > > >My best idea so far is to make a large pruning hook mechanism that could > >slice off the end of a pretty green branch up to about 2 inch diameter. > >Making it about 5/8 inches long per cut would probably make chunks as they > >are too big in diameter and too short to hold together as a cookie slice. > >It would look rather like a paper guillotine with half-round holes for the > >branches. There are some pruning hooks on long poles the hydro guys use > >that will cut 1 inch so it will not be diffcult to gear that up. > > > >I am working on a Rotary funding project for Margaret right now so I had > >better get to it. > > > >Regards > >Crispin > > Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00 > Rotary University Teacher Grantee to Mozambique >10 mo of 2001-2003 > Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University > Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310 > E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders > > > - > Stoves List Archives and Website: > http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ > http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) > http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) > > Stoves List Moderators: > Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net > Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net > Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com > > List-Post: > List-Help: > List-Unsubscribe: > List-Subscribe: > > Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html > - > Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: > http://www.bioenergy2002.org > http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy > http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification > http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon > > For information about CHAMBERS STOVES > http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm > - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon For information about CHAMBERS STOVES http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm From tombreed at attbi.com Tue Feb 12 04:31:02 2002 From: tombreed at attbi.com (Thomas Reed) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:37 2004 Subject: Quenching char In-Reply-To: <84.232c51cc.2999630c@aol.com> Message-ID: <008201c1b3c7$eb6c6d60$49b2ff0c@attbi.com> Dear Stovers: Along with Dan's suggestion of an aluminum vessel to quench the charcoal... Take off your shoes and walk on it and gain self confidence at the same time. Swamis do it. You can too! TOM REED ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, February 11, 2002 11:10 AM Subject: Quenching char > Stovers, > It seems the more we talk about something, the more the mind checks > the cracks for hidden ideas. What if we used a large thick cast aluminum > vessel to draw the heat out of the char so quickly that it just went out? > How about those large aluminum dutch ovens? You could get the advantage of > cutting the air as well. just shake a little to stur the char. > Well, there went another patent, just kidding. > Dan Dimiduk. > > - > Stoves List Archives and Website: > http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ > http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) > http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) > > Stoves List Moderators: > Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net > Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net > Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com > > List-Post: > List-Help: > List-Unsubscribe: > List-Subscribe: > > Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html > - > Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: > http://www.bioenergy2002.org > http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy > http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification > http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon > > For information about CHAMBERS STOVES > http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm > - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon For information about CHAMBERS STOVES http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm From psanders at ilstu.edu Tue Feb 12 06:26:48 2002 From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:37 2004 Subject: Quenching char - Not with water! In-Reply-To: <004201c1b3b7$d5690060$703fefc3@a1g0h5> Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20020212102546.01b56630@mail.ilstu.edu> Yury, Thank you very much. To the novice (me), that means to try to stay away from putting water onto the charcoal.  The exception would be if you are reasonably sure that the sprinkle of water is evaporated and therefore the water would not remain with the charcoal. ALSO (and very important ??) to the making of briquettes with charcoal fines in them, it is NOT good to have the charcoal soaked with water.   BUT, briquettes are made with a very wet slurry of binder and biomass, so it is not possible to keep the charcoal dry.  And the "sun-drying" of the briquettes may not (??) sufficiently remove the water from the briquette with charcoal. Yury and other experts:  can you confirm (or correct) the above two paragraphs.  This would seem to be VERY important.  We do not want to encourage CO production (unless there is a safe "afterburn" that converts the CO into energy and harmless gasses. Paul At 02:23 PM 2/12/02 +0300, Yudkevich Yury wrote: The friends and colleague, Water enters reaction with the heated charcoal on the equation C+H2O =CO+H2. It is classical " reaction of water gas ". The cooling of a charcoal by water it a) loss of a charcoal (output is reduced from 32 % to 20 %) and b) danger of explosion of water gas with air. Yury (Russia) Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D.,  Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00 Rotary University Teacher Grantee to Mozambique >10 mo of 2001-2003 Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University Normal, IL  61790-4400   Voice:  309-438-7360;  FAX:  309-438-5310 E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders From legacyfound at hotmail.com Wed Feb 13 02:44:45 2002 From: legacyfound at hotmail.com (richard stanley) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:37 2004 Subject: Quenching char Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://listserv.repp.org/pipermail/stoves/attachments/20020213/c2918e93/attachment.html From legacyfound at hotmail.com Wed Feb 13 03:13:34 2002 From: legacyfound at hotmail.com (richard stanley) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:37 2004 Subject: Quenching char - Not with water! Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://listserv.repp.org/pipermail/stoves/attachments/20020213/8a2ece19/attachment.html From owen at africaonline.co.ke Wed Feb 13 03:23:49 2002 From: owen at africaonline.co.ke (Matthew Owen) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:37 2004 Subject: Quenching char In-Reply-To: <004201c1b3b7$d5690060$703fefc3@a1g0h5> Message-ID: <025601c1b491$c1c42780$ba40083e@oemcomputer> Yury,   This is interesting stuff. We routinely quench our char with water at Chardust.   We have found significant differences in carbonisation efficiencies and end product quality between different materials. We had always put this down to the properties of the materials themselves. For example, dry, evenly sized coffee husk carbonises at 33% and flaky damp bagasse at 20% using our system. The final briquetted products also differ significantly in quality, with coffee husk having 17% ash and bagasse up to 33% ash, using exactly the same binders.   Looking closer at our figures in light of your information we have now seen that coffee husk usually needs only 9% water by weight to quench, compared with 34% by weight for bagasse. There therefore seems to be a direct linkage between the amount of water required to quench and both our conversion efficiencies and our percentage ash in the finished briquette product. For a selection of 8 types of biomass we have an inverse relationship between amount of water needed to quench and percentage conversion efficiency with a correlation coefficient of 0.64. Fairly strong, although not totally convincing.   Presumably you would put the relationship down to loss of carbon into the atmosphere in the form of carbon monoxide as the water reacts with the char? Do other readers concur?   If it is true, how else can we quench?? It would improve both our conversion efficiencies and our fuel quality if we could avoid the 'water gas' reaction.   Matthew Owen Chardust Ltd. Kenya
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From: Yudkevich Yury To: stoves Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2002 2:23 PM Subject: Quenching char The friends and colleague, Water enters reaction with the heated charcoal on the equation C+H2O =CO+H2. It is classical " reaction of water gas ". The cooling of a charcoal by water it a) loss of a charcoal (output is reduced from 32 % to 20 %) and b) danger of explosion of water gas with air. Yury (Russia) From jaakko.saastamoinen at vtt.fi Wed Feb 13 05:22:22 2002 From: jaakko.saastamoinen at vtt.fi (Jaakko Saastamoinen) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:37 2004 Subject: Quenching char Message-ID: <3.0.32.20020213172334.0098c4c0@vttmail.vtt.fi> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 3559 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://listserv.repp.org/pipermail/stoves/attachments/20020213/e825f409/attachment.bin From kenboak at stirlingservice.freeserve.co.uk Wed Feb 13 05:41:22 2002 From: kenboak at stirlingservice.freeserve.co.uk (kenboak@stirlingservice.freeserve.co.uk) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:37 2004 Subject: Charcoal and water gas reaction Message-ID: <20020213154201.LSJT22946.fep04-svc.ttyl.com@localhost> Hi Stovers, Could someone please give me some basics on the water gas reaction between hot char and steam. How hot do the reactants need to be? How much heat needs to be supplied. Has anyone tried this purposefully or by accident using a source of superheated steam and hot charcoal? Any experimental experiences appreciated Thanks in advance, Ken _______________________________________________________________________ Never pay another Internet phone bill! Freeserve AnyTime, for all the Internet access you want, day and night, only £12.99 per month. Sign-up at http://www.freeserve.com/time/anytime - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon For information about CHAMBERS STOVES http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm From kchisholm at ca.inter.net Wed Feb 13 06:22:40 2002 From: kchisholm at ca.inter.net (Kevin Chisholm) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:37 2004 Subject: Quenching char In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20020213172334.0098c4c0@vttmail.vtt.fi> Message-ID: <009f01c1b4aa$a694e3a0$6619059a@kevin> Dear Jaakko   You have a good point. Perhaps the fundamental problem is inherently low charcoal yield, and the water quenching is getting blamed for it?   It would be very interesting to weigh the hot charcoal, spray quench it, and they weigh the perfectly dry charcoal. This would show both the basic charcoal yield, and would also show the loss, or lack thereof, associated with spray quenching.   Kindest regards,   Kevin Chisholm
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From: Jaakko Saastamoinen To: stoves@crest.org Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2002 11:23 AM Subject: Re: Quenching char Hi,the temperature must be high enough (about 850 C or higher)in order to gasification take place. If hot char becomesinto contact with water, practically no gasification takesplace, if the initial temperature of the char (before coolingwith water) is low enough (<700 C to be on the safe side). But if the char is very hot, endothermic gasification (=simultaneouscooling) may take place to some extent. Jaakko Saastamoinen
  From psanders at ilstu.edu Wed Feb 13 06:50:52 2002 From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:38 2004 Subject: Quenching char - Not with water! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20020213105116.00c5a100@mail.ilstu.edu> Richard, Great info, as usual. This is important to us!!!!!!!!!!!!!  But when I check the web site: http://www.legacyfound.org/ I did not find the part that discusses the issue of getting the charcoal fines to dry adequately.  You have answered my earlier question about the popping/sparking of the briquette that had charcoal in it.  Porosity of the binder material probably means less density, and thereby less heat value of the briquette, EXCEPT that the heat value of the charcoal fines probably more than compensates for the reduced energy from binder. Now Apolinario and I in Mozambique need to find MZ materials that allow the drying of the charcoal fines. More ideas and comments from anyone, please. Paul At 05:14 AM 2/13/02 -0800, richard stanley wrote: With respect to Paul, The 100 odd groups we have trained have been using charcoal fines for about 7 years. Through them, we learned early on that charcoal fines , while very porous, may not be sufficiently permeable to allow adequate drying in a reasonable (4 to 6 days) time. It is essential to blend them with  something which is more ppermeable to allow the drainige of excess (free) water in the pressing process and facilitate drying to ambient humidity. A tightly compacted clayey blend of over ripe residues for example, surely would not work with the wet process we use:  A blend of sawdust and/orand coarser biomass will. Its all about providing a fibrous yet porous binder in the residue blends. See our website for more info , or for that matter please visit the stoves groups photo pages throuh the kind assistance of Alex English, one of the moderators of our group. Richard Stanley Kampala Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: Click Here Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D.,  Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00 Rotary University Teacher Grantee to Mozambique >10 mo of 2001-2003 Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University Normal, IL  61790-4400   Voice:  309-438-7360;  FAX:  309-438-5310 E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders From RSamson at reap-canada.com Wed Feb 13 09:33:50 2002 From: RSamson at reap-canada.com (RSamson@reap-canada.com) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:38 2004 Subject: New Report on Bioenergy in the Philippines Message-ID: <3C6AC016.F38CD5BB@reap-canada.com> Dear Stovers An electronic copy of a new bioenergy report completed by Resource Efficient Agricultural Production (REAP)-Canada and the University of the Philippines at Los Banos (UPLB) for the National Renewable Energy Laboratory (NREL) is now available electronically at www.nrel.gov/docs/fy02osti/30813.pdf. The executive summary follows below. Chapter 2 would be of most interest to the stoves group. The report takes a while to download as it is 220 pages. One of the most promising opportunities we identified was the need for an improved rice hull cooker. We subsequently began to develop an improved rice hull cooker (the LT-2000 cooker) which is now known as the Mayon Turbo. We will report to the stoves group shortly on the development of this new cooker. best regards Roger Samson Director of International Programs REAP-Canada www.reap-canada.com Strategies for Enhancing Biomass Energy Utilization in the Philippines EXECUTIVE SUMMARY Land distribution, food security, and a sustainable and affordable energy source are among the most important development issues facing the Philippines in the 21st century. Biofuel energy development can play a key role in the eradication of rural poverty and the creation of self-reliant communities. A rapidly expanding population and rising fossil fuel energy costs, mean increased pressure on the use of biomass resources for energy generation. Substantial investments in research and development are required to expand the biomass supply and enhance energy conversion technology. This report analyses opportunities for bioenergy utilization in the Philippines. It quantifies the potential biomass resource base, and identifies several uses for biofuel that would increase household energy security, promote self-reliant agricultural practices and improve human and environmental health. Biomass Resources Several sources of surplus crop residues could be recovered from primary agricultural production or after processing: - rice hulls (1.5 million Oven Dry Tonnes (ODT)) - sugar cane trash (274,000 ODT) - bagasse (322,000 ODT) - maize cobs (391,000 ODT) - coconut (10.4 million tonnes is available, however utilization is limited by manual labour requirements and poor transportation infrastructure in remote locations) The transition of rural land from tropical forests to agricultural farmland has shifted the biomass resource base. The majority of wood is now obtained from farmlands. Improving agro-forestry systems, increasing tree diversity and extending tree rotations can help to bring about the appropriate use of woodfuel. Dedicating land specifically to biomass production could increase the amount of biomass available for energy generation and other applications. Napier grass and other perennial warm-season grasses could be grown as energy crops on marginal farmland. The introduction of 100,000 ha of napier grass could generate 2 million ODT of biomass for energy applications. Bioenergy End-use Applications The use of bioenergy in households and in agricultural processing has been the focus of this study. An emphasis has been placed on heating as currently it consumes the most bioenergy, and is best suited to the decentralized availability of resources (the economics of liquid fuel and power generation are not as favorable). Household cooking consumes approximately 75% of the total biomass used, and is of considerable importance as there are 13 million families in the Philippines. An economic analysis indicated that the LT-2000 multi-fuel stove for rural households and pellet stoves for urban households (using cane trash or grass pellets) provided the greatest opportunities for reducing cooking costs for those purchasing fuels. There are one million households that could potentially be using the LT-2000 multi-fuel stove in the Philippines. The domestic production of 1 million tonnes of fuel pellets (derived from napier grass, cane trash or wood residues) could enable up to 2.5 million households make the switch to pellet fuel cooking. This could displace up to 2.5 million LPG cooking households, saving $145 million US annually in LPG imports. Agricultural residues and pellet burning furnaces could also play an increasing role in crop drying applications and other heat related energy applications in the future. With current crop residue production, biomass could supply approximately 160 MW of power for national use (1% of power by 2004). An assessment of year-round power generation found bagasse, followed by sugar cane trash, to be the most economical options. Fast growing tree plantations and napier grass were slightly higher in cost. The importation of 365,000 barrels of bunker oil for thermal processing by sugar mills could be displaced by about 161,000 tonnes of cane trash (at 26% moisture) which could save approximately $10 million US in oil imports. Cane trash farming is self-sustaining, as improving soil fertility, nitrogen fixation and water retention enhances crop yield, productivity and longevity. Trash farming also results in a significant decrease in fertilizer use, which decreases energy input, overall production costs, and fossil energy use (and GHG emissions). Successful implementation of low input trash farming on the 350,000 ha of land currently producing cane could save up to 1.8 million GJ of energy inputs, which would generate 26.5 million GJ of energy (in the form of recoverable bagasse and cane trash) for bioenergy applications. Trash farming has the potential to transform the industry from a net energy importer into a domestic energy producer. - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon For information about CHAMBERS STOVES http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm From woodcoal at mailbox.alkor.ru Wed Feb 13 22:19:00 2002 From: woodcoal at mailbox.alkor.ru (Yudkevich Yury) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:38 2004 Subject: Quenching char In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20020213172334.0098c4c0@vttmail.vtt.fi> Message-ID: <003201c1b530$99d02fe0$7a3fefc3@a1g0h5> Jaakko Saastamoinen write: the temperature must be high enough (about 850 C or higher) in order to gasification take place. If hot char becomes into contact with water, practically no gasification takes place, if the initial temperature of the char (before cooling with water) is low enough (<700 C to be on the safe side). But if the char is very hot, endothermic gasification (=simultaneous cooling) may take place to some extent. It correctly theoretically. Charcoal unload at temperature of 500 -600 degrees, but it gets in space, where there is a little oxygen. It it is enough, that the charcoal was warmed up in one point and temperature has increased. I witness explosion at attempt to cool charcoal by water. Yury - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon For information about CHAMBERS STOVES http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm From jmdavies at xsinet.co.za Thu Feb 14 04:57:03 2002 From: jmdavies at xsinet.co.za (John Davies) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:38 2004 Subject: Charcoal and water gas reaction In-Reply-To: <20020213154201.LSJT22946.fep04-svc.ttyl.com@localhost> Message-ID: <009301c1b568$aa6422c0$2a6927c4@jmdavies> Greetings All, Been siting quietly for a long time, and just not finding the time to do experimenting with clean burning of low grade, bituminous coal for the informal settlements here, which remains a wish. Hopefully I will find some time in the winter when the garden requires less attention. Someone wrote about the premixing of some secondary air into the gas before the burner in stoves. In my few experiments with coal, cleaner burning at the burner was achieved with this method. A gas pipe of about 2" diameter was used and about 15" long. about 6 cuts of about 1 1/4 " were made crosswise on the pipe and the section below the cut was dented inwatds. These were spread around and over the length of the pipe. This created a venturi effect sucking in some air and mixing it with the gas. The effect could be clearly seen if these holes were blocked off. Adding to Tom's writings about water gas, If one wishes to produce water gas, it is beneficial to have the temperatures as high as possible in order to achieve the minimum CO2 and Steam in the product. These reactions are multy directional. Above 1000 C very little CO2 is produced, with most of the steam reacted. As the temperature drops unwanted reactions start taking place. Firstly the steam is not completely reacted, secondly this steam reacts with CO to produce CO2 and H2. and lastly the water gas reaction reverses. There are also several lesser reactions which occur which all tend to produce steam and CO2 at diminishing temperatures. causing a decreasing calorific value of the gas. Regards to all, Keep up the good work, John Davies. Secunda, South Africa. ----- Original Message ----- From: Thomas Reed > Dear Ken and All: > > The water-gas reaction is > > C + H2O ==> CO + H2 > > Great reaction that converts water and a solid fuel (coal, coke, charcoal) > into gaseous fuel. Temperature needs to be above about 800 C. > > However, the reaction is VERY endothermic (absorbs heat) and needs to have > large quantities of heat supplied. This was done with coal in the water-gas > process. Air was blasted into coke to get it hot ("the blow"), then steam > was blasted through to make "blue water gas" (CO plus H2, "the run"). Read > all about it in the 1950 Enc. Brittanica at many libraries. - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon For information about CHAMBERS STOVES http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm From tombreed at attbi.com Thu Feb 14 06:19:36 2002 From: tombreed at attbi.com (Thomas Reed) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:38 2004 Subject: Quenching char In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <00ae01c1b572$d2da36e0$49b2ff0c@attbi.com> Dear Richard and All:   We should all be fascinated by phenomena we don't understand.  Are they "paranormal" (unlikely) or explainable by conventional science properly applied?   I do believe that charcoal firewalking has been practiced in the Pacific Northwest (Lotus land?) as a cure for insecurity and not for blistered feet.  It is certainly true that charcoal can be very low in density and probably heat conduction or could be quite high if made from dense biomass.    It is also true that the human foot is capable of becoming VERY leathery - if you go barefoot all year, or very tender (mine) if you wear shoes all the time.    It is also true that you can boil water in skin pots without burning the skin.  Sometimes.    So, this would be a good area of research if I didn't have more practical questions to investigate.    Keep your eyes and your mind open and all will be revealed - eventually.   Yours truly,                        TOM REED             BEF
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From: richard stanley To: tombreed@attbi.com ; Carefreeland@aol.com ; stoves@crest.org Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2002 5:45 AM Subject: Re: Quenching char Stovers, I humbly disagree with Tom Reids suggestion that you try out a firewalk !!! About a thousand years ago while in Sri lanka as a peacorpsman, I had the opportunity to witness firewalking . some of the group, emboldened by the Srilankans who were actually doing the walk, tried it and promptly burnt their feet rather badly. The good hope ship was there to analyse the real firewalkers and found not one ounce of scarring , nor did they find any ingested substance in the blood or on the breath of the local walkers. The fire was a pile of wood about 1meter height and equally as wide. It was burned down to a heap of glowing embers (not yet buried in ash) about a foot in height, so hot that you could not stand within 5 ft of it. The length of this pile: about 50 ft. So began my appreciation of the backward third world. I would not recommend it ! Richard Stanley Ceylon 2, 1967- 69 >From: "Thomas Reed" >To: , >Subject: Re: Quenching char >Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 06:19:36 -0700 > >Dear Stovers: > >Along with Dan's suggestion of an aluminum vessel to quench the charcoal... > >Take off your shoes and walk on it and gain self confidence at the same >time. Swamis do it. You can too! > >TOM REED >----- Original Message ----- >From: >To: >Sent: Monday, February 11, 2002 11:10 AM >Subject: Quenching char > > > > Stovers, > > It seems the more we talk about something, the more the mind checks > > the cracks for hidden ideas. What if we used a large thick cast aluminum > > vessel to draw the heat out of the char so quickly that it just went out? > > How about those large aluminum dutch ovens? You could get the advantage >of > > cutting the air as well. just shake a little to stur the char. > > Well, there went another patent, just kidding. > > Dan Dimiduk. > > > > - > > Stoves List Archives and Website: > > http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ > > http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) > > http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) > > > > Stoves List Moderators: > > Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net > > Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net > > Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com > > > > List-Post: > > List-Help: > > List-Unsubscribe: > > List-Subscribe: > > > > Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html > > - > > Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: > > http://www.bioenergy2002.org > > http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy > > http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification > > http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon > > > > For information about CHAMBERS STOVES > > http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm > > > > >- >Stoves List Archives and Website: >http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ >http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) >http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) > >Stoves List Moderators: >Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net >Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net >Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com > >List-Post: >List-Help: >List-Unsubscribe: >List-Subscribe: > >Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html >- >Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: >http://www.bioenergy2002.org >http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy >http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification >http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon > >For information about CHAMBERS STOVES >http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm >
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: Click Here- Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon For information about CHAMBERS STOVES http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm From pdebruic at mgmt.purdue.edu Thu Feb 14 11:29:43 2002 From: pdebruic at mgmt.purdue.edu (Paul DeBruicker) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:38 2004 Subject: selling stoves Message-ID: <1A0B0D90-2192-11D6-89D3-0003931A8C1A@mgmt.purdue.edu> Hi List, I've been a "lurker" on this list for some time, so thank you for sharing your ideas and effort. One concept that I would like to hear a little bit more about, that is rarely discussed, is how do you get a prototype stove from a lab in Denver, or Oregon, or wherever into the hands of people who would actually benefit from your development work? It seems that without a workable dissemination plan, the design stage is just an academic exercise. I would be surprised to learn that there are large groups of people with piles of cash just waiting for a stove to back. Presumably it would be necessary to have a design that could be profitably (at least no profit/ no loss) commercialized at a scale that provides incentives for both adoption and dissemination. Further, it seems to me that once you have a "winning" design the work has just begun because of the almost complete lack of dissemination infrastructure. I have read that to be accepted, the stove has to be designed with the end users assistance, with the ability to use locally available materials, and ease of construction/maintenance so that the local community can take part in the economic benefits. So it appears that an entire decentralized construction and distribution network would need to be created at an affordable cost, with allowances for local design changes that would suit the needs of the regional customer base. How do you close the gap between the designers and users so that the benefits of the stoves are actually realized? If this topic would be better addressed to a different forum please let me know and I will take it there. Thanks for any insight. Sincerely, Paul DeBruicker - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon For information about CHAMBERS STOVES http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm From CAVM at aol.com Thu Feb 14 11:48:22 2002 From: CAVM at aol.com (CAVM@aol.com) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:38 2004 Subject: selling stoves Message-ID: <10f.c40d6c5.299d8acc@aol.com> In a message dated 2/14/2002 3:32:02 PM Central Standard Time, pdebruic@mgmt.purdue.edu writes: << How do you close the gap between the designers and users so that the benefits of the stoves are actually realized? >> Personally, I would go to mgmt.purdue.edu and ask for their assistance. C. Van Milligen - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon For information about CHAMBERS STOVES http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm From ronallarson at qwest.net Thu Feb 14 14:08:51 2002 From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:38 2004 Subject: selling stoves In-Reply-To: <1A0B0D90-2192-11D6-89D3-0003931A8C1A@mgmt.purdue.edu> Message-ID: <008901c1b5b5$6fb93000$e0f76641@computer> Paul: 1. We don't talk often enough on this list about the marketing side (and thanks to Cornelius for pointing out that your department at Purdue might be able to provide some guidance) - but I don't believe there is any better site to talk about the issues.of dissemination. 2. One thought that comes to mind is for all of us to look more carefully at what happened in China. Kirk Smith has recently gone again to China and we should be hearing more soon on this issue. Perhaps Kirk or someone at Berkeley could provide us again with best references. The main point I have gained from the literature is that the national government was strongly behind the stove improvement and dissemination program. Another is that the support was not one of cost subsidization - but rather low interest loans to manufacturers and advertising, promotional, and informational support.. 3. Another point is that we will soon see a major increase in support for national or local stoves dissemination programs through the Shell Foundation. We have been hearing that they will insist on something approaching a sustainable program. Any ideas you have for proposers to Shell will be well appreciated. 4. It now seems unlikely, but perhaps the issue will be taken up in the WSSD discussions this August in Joburg. If a few governments begin to see the importance of stoves and stove dissemination, perhaps we can start making some progress. 5. In the past (including in China), there has never been a major national interest in the health side of stoves. Now, we also have the possibility of proving a global warming imperative. Thus there may be better means of getting attention at the national and international level than we have had in the past. 6. It would be great to hear some more of your own thoughts. Ron ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul DeBruicker To: Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2002 2:30 PM Subject: selling stoves > Hi List, > > I've been a "lurker" on this list for some time, so thank you for sharing > your ideas and effort. One concept that I would like to hear a little bit > more about, that is rarely discussed, is how do you get a prototype stove > from a lab in Denver, or Oregon, or wherever into the hands of people who > would actually benefit from your development work? It seems that without a > workable dissemination plan, the design stage is just an academic exercise. > I would be surprised to learn that there are large groups of people with > piles of cash just waiting for a stove to back. Presumably it would be > necessary to have a design that could be profitably (at least no profit/ > no loss) commercialized at a scale that provides incentives for both > adoption and dissemination. Further, it seems to me that once you have a > "winning" design the work has just begun because of the almost complete > lack of dissemination infrastructure. I have read that to be accepted, the > stove has to be designed with the end users assistance, with the ability > to use locally available materials, and ease of construction/maintenance > so that the local community can take part in the economic benefits. So it > appears that an entire decentralized construction and distribution network > would need to be created at an affordable cost, with allowances for local > design changes that would suit the needs of the regional customer base. > How do you close the gap between the designers and users so that the > benefits of the stoves are actually realized? > > If this topic would be better addressed to a different forum please let me > know and I will take it there. Thanks for any insight. > > Sincerely, > Paul DeBruicker > > - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon For information about CHAMBERS STOVES http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm From elk at wananchi.com Thu Feb 14 22:09:02 2002 From: elk at wananchi.com (elk) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:38 2004 Subject: selling stoves In-Reply-To: <1A0B0D90-2192-11D6-89D3-0003931A8C1A@mgmt.purdue.edu> Message-ID: <006b01c1b5f8$9a4f7520$6341083e@default> Paul; Your question on stoves marketing is indeed of central import to this list. In my experience, there's absolutely no substitute for visiting the intended marketplace and gaining experience with applying the stove en situ. The second step for a Nor-Am or European product would normally be to investigate local fabrication- as Paul Haite has done with Pyromid Stoves in South Africa. The obvious complications arise if you are working for-profit at this point- how to control quality, compete with the quick-to-copy informal sector (which may spoil a good name image and marketing investment with substandard/incomplete products), and invigilate royalties. Many a non-profit stove dissemination project has failed to succeed even though the product seems to fit the requirement in all aspects. A for-profit project is even more tricky. There are good sales prospects in targeting aid agencies and focusing on famine, flood, earthquake, deforested and conflict areas, but first you MUST prove the stove within representative target populations. Aid agencies are wary of 'good ideas' now- having been stung trying to give away maize to millet-eaters etc.......... The crux- your choice if you need finance- to go NGO and give away your technology in exchange for free travel & a philosophical glow or seek venture capital and tie up partnerships & profit-shares. Obviously there is a broad grey area in between, but in most instances development grants etc. are not available without a track record showing some form of commercial viability. This takes time, money, effort, travel.......... most of all- patience. Good luck, and keep us here on the stoves list as informed as a for-profit lurker can, O.K.? You are not alone. elk -------------------------- Elsen L. Karstad elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com Nairobi Kenya ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul DeBruicker" To: Sent: Friday, February 15, 2002 12:30 AM Subject: selling stoves > Hi List, > > I've been a "lurker" on this list for some time, so thank you for sharing > your ideas and effort. One concept that I would like to hear a little bit > more about, that is rarely discussed, is how do you get a prototype stove > from a lab in Denver, or Oregon, or wherever into the hands of people who > would actually benefit from your development work? It seems that without a > workable dissemination plan, the design stage is just an academic exercise. > I would be surprised to learn that there are large groups of people with > piles of cash just waiting for a stove to back. Presumably it would be > necessary to have a design that could be profitably (at least no profit/ > no loss) commercialized at a scale that provides incentives for both > adoption and dissemination. Further, it seems to me that once you have a > "winning" design the work has just begun because of the almost complete > lack of dissemination infrastructure. I have read that to be accepted, the > stove has to be designed with the end users assistance, with the ability > to use locally available materials, and ease of construction/maintenance > so that the local community can take part in the economic benefits. So it > appears that an entire decentralized construction and distribution network > would need to be created at an affordable cost, with allowances for local > design changes that would suit the needs of the regional customer base. > How do you close the gap between the designers and users so that the > benefits of the stoves are actually realized? > > If this topic would be better addressed to a different forum please let me > know and I will take it there. Thanks for any insight. > > Sincerely, > Paul DeBruicker > > > - > Stoves List Archives and Website: > http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ > http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) > http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) > > Stoves List Moderators: > Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net > Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net > Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com > > List-Post: > List-Help: > List-Unsubscribe: > List-Subscribe: > > Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html > - > Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: > http://www.bioenergy2002.org > http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy > http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification > http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon > > For information about CHAMBERS STOVES > http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm > > - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon For information about CHAMBERS STOVES http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm From crispin at newdawn.sz Fri Feb 15 02:22:45 2002 From: crispin at newdawn.sz (New Dawn Engineering /ATEX) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:38 2004 Subject: Stoves, charcoal and intellectual property rights Message-ID: <005301c1b61b$fdeb19e0$2a47fea9@md> Dear Stovers I am representing Swaziland at a UN conference on appropriate technology and intellectual property law in Maseru at the end of the month. I am interested to know if anyone have any private contributions that would open up this interesting field of law. At the moment the entire body of law is pretty much drawn up to favour the formal inventor-entrepreneur. Things like indigenous 'intellectual property' (if indeed it can be called that) which has been (legally speaking) 'public' for generations and their exploitation give rise to the most uninformed, emotional arguments. I have in mind drawing up an entirely new set of intellectual property agreements that are not founded in law but in 'fair practise' and rooted in the well established rules of "shareware" as software is on the Net. Do you have any perspectives on this? As intellectual property protection and law enforcement in its present form is basically unavailable to the masses because of its cost, I am proposing a set of guidelines rather like the Sullivan Principles to govern the use of 'appropriate technology' and 'indigenous knowledge' which morally obligate someone who is profiting from knowledge they obtained for a 'secreted' source (not necessarily a patentable source) to pay the source, be it an individual, a legal body, or a 'tribe' or 'ethnic group'. At the moment the gap between formal sector corporations patenting processes that mimic natural ones and the 'defenders' of indigenous knowledge (which is a lot of what appropriate technology is about) is unbridgeable. The 'defenders' want full patent protection and licencing for common knowledge. It is my opinion that in large part people think that this protection is ad infinitum. Because many people in Africa, for example, wring whole economic lives out of creating a large amount of information friction around a tiny piece of information (like how to repair an aluminum pot) there is widespread expectation that information on healing or technology should be paid for forever because now the information 'is out'. These expectations are clearly out of tune with a regular patent. I expect the conference to be filled with uninformed recriminations and accusations with the 'Third World' ganging up on 'multinationals' however there might just be a place for a new initiative. I know enough about intellectual property law to be aware of my own ignorance of it. Therefore I am inviting you to participate in this initiative. Obviously no one is getting paid for any of this. It is just a chance to write the first page of a new chapter in international intellectual property law. I am representing a country so I will sift and append to try to make a proposal that is representative of a defensible position at this juncture. The development, dissemination and trading in stoves is a perfect example of problems related to this sector of international law. Can a Swazi come to the USA and learn the tricks of the trade by cleverly interviewing stove designers on the excuse that he is collecting information for village tinsmiths at home. Then he goes home and works with a few buddies and they make a minor breakthrough based on their own knowledge of stoves. They then patent this and go to a US manufacturer, licencing them at bug bucks, essentially selling the accumulated knowledge they got from the Stovers in the US plus their little extra insight. How do the stovers feel when they go to buy an expensive stove that is patented mainly based on information they gave the Swazi? Is this intellectual piracy? Should some of the income go to the original advisers? Suppose I read all the comments ever passed on this discussion group and realize that adding up all the wood burning information equals a brilliant new patent. I have thought of nothing at all, only read the postings. Who gets the income? Who should get the income? Should the stovers advise me on how to generate a patentable invention? Can I get a manufacturer interested in making a new stove if it is not protected? Interesting stuff, this. Regards Crispin - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon For information about CHAMBERS STOVES http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm From tombreed at attbi.com Fri Feb 15 06:40:07 2002 From: tombreed at attbi.com (Thomas Reed) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:38 2004 Subject: CO formation at low temperatures In-Reply-To: <000901c1b589$225c35e0$018197d4@default> Message-ID: <004301c1b63e$91da1260$49b2ff0c@attbi.com> Dear Urban:   Interesting you find CO in low temperature pellet combustion and in room temperature chip drying.   Pyrolysis of wood between 250 and 450 C does produce CO among many other things.   Digestion at room temperature does NOT produce CO to the best of my knowledge.    What levels of CO did you measure?  What kind of meter. (Some CO meters will also respond to other gases.)   Sometimes excessive sensitivity blinds us to the hieraarchy of problems to be solved.  Smokers typically inhale gases with >100 ppm CO and live (occasionally) to 100.    Yours truly,                    TOM REED           BEF    
----- Original Message -----
From: Urban Svedberg To: TomBReed@ATTBI.COM Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2002 11:55 AM Subject: CO formation at low temperatures Hi,   I found your address through the woodgas homepage. I am working in a reserach project on wood pellets where I monitor the emissions with an FTIR instrument. I have noticed that CO is produced at low temperature from wood pellets but also from fresh wood chips upon drying at room temperture. Do you have any explanation for this?   All the best   Urban Svedberg Dept of Occupational and Environmental Medicine Sundvall Hospital Sweden   e-mail at work: urban.svedberg@lvn.se e-mail at home: urban.svedberg.@swipnet.se From legacyfound at hotmail.com Fri Feb 15 07:02:20 2002 From: legacyfound at hotmail.com (richard stanley) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:38 2004 Subject: Quenching char - Not with water! Message-ID: Paul, I did not mention charcoal fines per se in the web site but I think I did refer to the need for good draininge in the production process. Try water hyacinth, chopped maise stover/leaves, and any of a host of field grasses, browned before retting. No matter what you use try to arrest the decomposition process before it turns into mud. The turning point will be like titration curve. In the decomposition process , for several days you see nothing then within 24 hours the mass is burning up and hot. I have nice vocabulry for this but really and again, it rests in the hands to feel what we are talking about. You can extract from any experenced village producer to the lab for numbers if you need them. Inductively, Richard stanley >From: "Paul S. Anderson" >To: richard stanley , woodcoal@mailbox.alkor.ru, > stoves@crest.org, ajmalawene01@hotmail.com, bobkarlaweldon@cs.com, > cfranc@ilstu.edu, ajtsamba@zebra.uem.mz, astrozen2000@hotmail.com, > Apolinário J Malawene >Subject: Re: Quenching char - Not with water! >Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 10:58:54 -0600 > >Richard, Great info, as usual. > >This is important to us!!!!!!!!!!!!! But when I check the web site: >http://www.legacyfound.org/ > >I did not find the part that discusses the issue of getting the charcoal >fines to dry adequately. > >You have answered my earlier question about the popping/sparking of the >briquette that had charcoal in it. > >Porosity of the binder material probably means less density, and thereby >less heat value of the briquette, EXCEPT that the heat value of the >charcoal fines probably more than compensates for the reduced energy from >binder. > >Now Apolinario and I in Mozambique need to find MZ materials that allow the >drying of the charcoal fines. > >More ideas and comments from anyone, please. > >Paul > >At 05:14 AM 2/13/02 -0800, richard stanley wrote: > >>With respect to Paul, >> >>The 100 odd groups we have trained have been using charcoal fines for >>about 7 years. Through them, we learned early on that charcoal fines , >>while very porous, may not be sufficiently permeable to allow adequate >>drying in a reasonable (4 to 6 days) time. >> >>It is essential to blend them with something which is more ppermeable to >>allow the drainige of excess (free) water in the pressing process and >>facilitate drying to ambient humidity. A tightly compacted clayey blend of >>over ripe residues for example, surely would not work with the wet process >>we use: A blend of sawdust and/orand coarser biomass will. Its all about >>providing a fibrous yet porous binder in the residue blends. See our >>website for more info , or for that matter please visit the stoves groups >>photo pages throuh the kind assistance of Alex English, one of the >>moderators of our group. >> >>Richard Stanley >> >>Kampala >> >> >>---------- >>Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: Click Here > >Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00 >Rotary University Teacher Grantee to Mozambique >10 mo of 2001-2003 >Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University >Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310 >E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon For information about CHAMBERS STOVES http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm From larch at kootenay.com Fri Feb 15 14:19:56 2002 From: larch at kootenay.com (David & Laura Strom) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:38 2004 Subject: selling stoves In-Reply-To: <1A0B0D90-2192-11D6-89D3-0003931A8C1A@mgmt.purdue.edu> Message-ID: <3C6DA5AF.FF329D46@kootenay.com> I've been thinking that a stove could be developed and marketed first to the outdoor recreation market, which would pay for the higher cost of lower volume production. Then, as the company gets on its feet, it can setup licenced fabrication for lower cost in the countries where residential stoves are needed. This is an outdoor equipment cooperative store that donates 0.4% or their gross revenue to environmental projects. Stove development might qualify, biomass substitution for fossil and all. Check out their "Environmental Fund" page. And you'd automatically have a retailer to sell them too! http://www.mec.ca/Main/home.jsp David Strom - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon For information about CHAMBERS STOVES http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm From kchisholm at ca.inter.net Sat Feb 16 13:09:38 2002 From: kchisholm at ca.inter.net (Kevin Chisholm) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:38 2004 Subject: Stoves, charcoal and intellectual property rights In-Reply-To: <005301c1b61b$fdeb19e0$2a47fea9@md> Message-ID: <005001c1b73e$fad987e0$a819059a@kevin> Dear Crispin You have an extremely interesting challenge ahead of you. The matter is extremely complex, and I certainly cannot see a solution. The "Nature of Law" is that it describes exact circumstances, beyond which the "Law" is broken, or transgressed. It is intended to create a "black or white", yes or no", "right or wrong" outcome. It sets up a "win-lose" condition, rather than a "win-win" condition. Some people want to get "something for nothing." Some people have an unrealistic "pride of authorship." Some people have a great need to control and dominate. Some people are greedy. Some people have a social consciens. Some people are fair and honorable. Some are amoral. Some people would say "I was going to patent my idea and make a million dollars, but somebody else has a patent on my idea, and the patent system is wrong because now the other fella is going to make the million that I wanted." They miss the fact that the patent cuts both ways. Patents only become necessary when ego, money and human nature are involved. :-) I would suggest that a "perfect system" is one which serves the "enlightened long term best interests of all concerned." The problem is to find the mechanics that can bring this about. An innovator takes great risk, in the sense that he spends resources on investigating and developing unproven concepts. Very few such efforts lead to a condition where a new concept repays the resources expended. If the odds were 50 to 1 against him, a successful project would have to pay 50 times its actual cost to permit a stable system. This would be a "break-even condition" There must be some provision for a "big win", but with a very successful invention there comes a point where a "deserved big win" turns into an "undeserved winfall" Assume that someone invented a "perpetual stove", analagous to a "perpetual motion machine", and got a patent on it. Assume further that this stove that was always hot and never required refueling could be sold for $1. He would have the right to prevent anyone from using his concept for 17 years. Where does the "greater good" over ride the patent law? Consider the case of AIDS drugs.... why is it OK for the Drug Companies to be forced (legally or morally) to sell their drugs to "poor people in poor countries" at just above their true cost, yet not be similarily obgligated to provide the drugs to "poor people in rich countries?" A Drug Company did extensive work on the Neem Tree, and found improved ways to extract the oil and/or to make it more effective. They were jumped upon from 40 stories because "they tried to patent the Neem Tree, that Indians were using for thousands of years." The reality is they did no such thing....they patented ways to improve on neem tree products.There were many claims on behalf of the Indian peoples that "indigenous technology" was being stolen, when in reality it was not. An extreme benefit of the Patent SYstem is that technology becomes more widely disseminated. It encourages people to share technology. If an Indigenous Group has "sectret technology" which it retains as "secret" or "proprietary,", they also should be subject to the same risks that a developed country person takes when he with-holds his technology and sells it on a proprietary basis. On the other hand, if the Indigenous group freely "tells all", then the information is inthe Public Domaine, and is not patentable. Your example where someone takes a colectin of ideas and puts them together in a way that he can get a patent is interesting. What he should do is at least allow those to help him along the way to use his patent at no charge. However, I would think he is quite entitled to a patent, in that he did indeed come up with a new and improved system. Just a few thoughts.... hope they are of some help... Kevin Chisholm ----- Original Message ----- From: "New Dawn Engineering /ATEX" To: "Stoves" Sent: Friday, February 15, 2002 8:25 AM Subject: Stoves, charcoal and intellectual property rights > Dear Stovers > > I am representing Swaziland at a UN conference on appropriate technology and > intellectual property law in Maseru at the end of the month. > > I am interested to know if anyone have any private contributions that would > open up this interesting field of law. At the moment the entire body of law > is pretty much drawn up to favour the formal inventor-entrepreneur. Things > like indigenous 'intellectual property' (if indeed it can be called that) > which has been (legally speaking) 'public' for generations and their > exploitation give rise to the most uninformed, emotional arguments. > > I have in mind drawing up an entirely new set of intellectual property > agreements that are not founded in law but in 'fair practise' and rooted in > the well established rules of "shareware" as software is on the Net. > > Do you have any perspectives on this? > > As intellectual property protection and law enforcement in its present form > is basically unavailable to the masses because of its cost, I am proposing a > set of guidelines rather like the Sullivan Principles to govern the use of > 'appropriate technology' and 'indigenous knowledge' which morally obligate > someone who is profiting from knowledge they obtained for a 'secreted' > source (not necessarily a patentable source) to pay the source, be it an > individual, a legal body, or a 'tribe' or 'ethnic group'. > > At the moment the gap between formal sector corporations patenting processes > that mimic natural ones and the 'defenders' of indigenous knowledge (which > is a lot of what appropriate technology is about) is unbridgeable. The > 'defenders' want full patent protection and licencing for common knowledge. > It is my opinion that in large part people think that this protection is ad > infinitum. Because many people in Africa, for example, wring whole economic > lives out of creating a large amount of information friction around a tiny > piece of information (like how to repair an aluminum pot) there is > widespread expectation that information on healing or technology should be > paid for forever because now the information 'is out'. These expectations > are clearly out of tune with a regular patent. > > I expect the conference to be filled with uninformed recriminations and > accusations with the 'Third World' ganging up on 'multinationals' however > there might just be a place for a new initiative. > > I know enough about intellectual property law to be aware of my own > ignorance of it. Therefore I am inviting you to participate in this > initiative. Obviously no one is getting paid for any of this. It is just a > chance to write the first page of a new chapter in international > intellectual property law. > > I am representing a country so I will sift and append to try to make a > proposal that is representative of a defensible position at this juncture. > > The development, dissemination and trading in stoves is a perfect example of > problems related to this sector of international law. > > Can a Swazi come to the USA and learn the tricks of the trade by cleverly > interviewing stove designers on the excuse that he is collecting information > for village tinsmiths at home. Then he goes home and works with a few > buddies and they make a minor breakthrough based on their own knowledge of > stoves. They then patent this and go to a US manufacturer, licencing them > at bug bucks, essentially selling the accumulated knowledge they got from > the Stovers in the US plus their little extra insight. How do the stovers > feel when they go to buy an expensive stove that is patented mainly based on > information they gave the Swazi? Is this intellectual piracy? Should some > of the income go to the original advisers? > > Suppose I read all the comments ever passed on this discussion group and > realize that adding up all the wood burning information equals a brilliant > new patent. I have thought of nothing at all, only read the postings. Who > gets the income? Who should get the income? > > Should the stovers advise me on how to generate a patentable invention? Can > I get a manufacturer interested in making a new stove if it is not > protected? > > Interesting stuff, this. > > Regards > Crispin > > > - > Stoves List Archives and Website: > http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ > http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) > http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) > > Stoves List Moderators: > Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net > Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net > Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com > > List-Post: > List-Help: > List-Unsubscribe: > List-Subscribe: > > Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html > - > Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: > http://www.bioenergy2002.org > http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy > http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification > http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon > > For information about CHAMBERS STOVES > http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm > - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon For information about CHAMBERS STOVES http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm From psanders at ilstu.edu Sun Feb 17 13:22:18 2002 From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:38 2004 Subject: selling stoves - Juntos approach In-Reply-To: <1A0B0D90-2192-11D6-89D3-0003931A8C1A@mgmt.purdue.edu> Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20020217153551.017fc9d0@mail.ilstu.edu> To Stoves Listserve, and my Rotarian friends (Rotarians, please consider this information as background about the stoves project that I will be proposing. Encouragement or advice to not seek Rotary assistance would be appreciated.) Stovers, please do NOT include the Rotarians for your replies (I will provide a summary if and when needed), and Rotarians, you will NOT be able to post to the Stoves List Serve (I will inform the Stovers of your relevant messages.) At 04:30 PM 2/14/02 -0500, Paul DeBruicker wrote: >how do you [anyone, not just Paul A.] get a prototype stove from a lab in >Denver, or Oregon, or wherever into the hands of people who would actually >benefit from your development work? It seems that without a workable >dissemination plan, the design stage is just an academic exercise. This is indeed a great challenge. In this message I will outline the plan that I CURRENTLY have for a dissemination plan, and I welcome comments that will assist in evaluating and implementing the plan. Paul DB wrote: >once you have a "winning" design, the work has just begun because of the >almost complete lack of dissemination infrastructure. I (Paul A.) break this into 2 main parts: The physical materials of the stoves and the education/introduction/"sales" of the stoves to the people who could use them >I have read that to be accepted, the stove has to be designed with the end >users assistance, with the ability to use locally available materials, and >ease of construction/maintenance so that the local community can take part >in the economic benefits. So it appears that an entire decentralized >construction and distribution network would need to be created at an >affordable cost, with allowances for local design changes that would suit >the needs of the regional customer base. Paul DB's comment above means that the stove(s) had better be SIMPLE and locally do-able and inexpensive and flexible for local adaptation. >How do you close the gap between the designers and users so that the >benefits of the stoves are actually realized? ********* Start of Paul Anderson's main message***************** 1. Each week I experiment with variations of my Juntos ("Together") stove design, and I allow myself 2 more weeks to finalize a design. I have been and will continue to describe the design to those on the Stoves listserve, receive some feedback, and make adjustments. That design I will take with me to southern Africa on 5 March. There I will show it to Rotarian (appropriate technology engineering specialist) Crispin in Swaziland (SZ), and together we will thrash out the "production" issues, that I see as being mainly "tools" that Crispin (and others) can make so that local people can go into the Juntos stove business at minimal cost. NOTE A: The stoves efforts are NOT the main objective of my trip to Africa. I work at a University (Teachers College) there. But my work is compatible with efforts for the stoves project, especially in the "non-class" times. NOTE B: The Juntos stove is becoming a "stack" of stove components, of which the crucial one is at the bottom and is a natural convection gasifier about the size of a 1 or 2 liter (1 or 2 quart) metal can. This weekend I have expanded from the "Rocket Stove" design (which has continual lateral feed of fuel) of the upper unit, and am now ALSO having "batch-loaded" upper units with different functions. (details in separate messages.) 2. On my trip to SZ, South Africa (SA) and Mozambique (MZ), I will have 5 or more of the Juntos stoves with me (or I will make them "on the spot" with the minimal materials and tools that I will have with me.). I will be hampered by problems of appropriate fuels (plural) and the lack of materials that we in North American and Europe take for granted. Although local "tinsmiths" (sheet-metal workers) will eventually be able to produce the parts that I want, currently they do not have any stock of what is needed. 3. One of my geography students (Apolinario) in MZ has a thesis topic dealing with community acceptance of biomass briquettes. He and some wonderful members of Interact (a Rotary sponsored youth group) and some Scouts of Mozambique will be my key assistants. We will make a stove at the University where I work and also at the home of (Interactor) Francisco where we make briquettes. Francisco's mother everyday cooks outside in her "patio" (nothing like patios in the USA, I assure you.). We must make it functional in those circumstances before we can proceed to larger numbers. Apolinario is planning to have a "demonstration cook-out" at the University campus on the final days I am there in late March. He gets academic credit for his efforts, and I (we) get feedback about what he shows. 4. In order to make plans for the future, I must assume a reasonable degrees of success with manufacturing techniques (with Crispin) and of success with cook/social acceptance. (If it does NOT have those successes, I return to the drawing board.) With reasonable success, I will be laying plans for a community-awareness-education activity to begin in July when I am back in southern Africa. A. Stove makers need to be shown what to make and the easiest ways to make it. B. Community people need to be shown the what, why, how etc. of accomplishing their cooking needs with a different type of stove. The benefits will need to be explained in terms that they will understand. 5. All of the above is influenced by the variations in poverty found in southern Africa (and elsewhere). Some people have absolutely nothing, but they could benefit by collection of biomass fuel materials that otherwise are literally pollution on the city streets. Some other people will desire an improved stove and purchase the minimal components but "construct" the Juntos stove themselves. Still others could desire a more "up-scale" version of the Juntos stove that could be purchased ready-to-use. And I hope that a "refined" version will also become available, possibly including the "turbo" forced-air features that Tom Reed is developing. 6. Although I can donate many hours to the stoves efforts, there are still financial costs. For materials such as the demonstration stoves, and for the tool-sets to get the local production started, there is money needed. Some of that can repaid (provided as loans for tools rather than as gifts). Other funding is to do the educational (informational) efforts, such as printing of informational pages or modest expenses to sustain the student volunteers, such as a bus ride to a location, or a small snack in a long work period. This is not "wages" but more like incidental costs or like "contractual expenses" to get goods delivered. Eventually, some of these costs could be covered in a "sales commission" or "retailer profit margin," but at the start they are the financial costs of implementation. 7. Sunset Rotary Club members (including myself) have already contributed about $400 to the stoves and biomass briquettes projects (related parts of one larger project). It is my intention to request $5000 to $10,000 from the Rotary District funding. To obtain approval, I must refine and itemize any cost estimates and give a more detailed timetable. I will also be giving more information about the stoves themselves, including a cooking demonstration on Juntos stoves at the District Conference in early June in Illinois. I do not know if that funding will be approved, but this message is going to some of the people who will have a say about yes or no. 8. Also, I will be providing Juntos stove information to the technical specialists who can check the heat and efficiency and emissions and whatever. But as Paul DB appropriately indicated, the dissemination issues are critical for going from the development laboratory to the overseas places of need. Sincerely, Paul Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00 Rotary University Teacher Grantee to Mozambique >10 mo of 2001-2003 Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310 E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon For information about CHAMBERS STOVES http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm From tombreed at attbi.com Mon Feb 18 03:43:45 2002 From: tombreed at attbi.com (Thomas Reed) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:38 2004 Subject: selling stoves - WoodGas CampStove approach In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20020217153551.017fc9d0@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <002201c1b880$3f9f1740$49b2ff0c@attbi.com> Dear Paul, Paul, and Awl: Paul D has asked some very prescient questions about propogating biomass stoves to a world in great need. Paul A has outlined a reasonable plan for stove dissemination to the poorest of the poor. Let me outline our plan of attack for the rest of the developing world. 1) We develop an elegant WoodGas stove burning biomass trash (15 minutes) or pellets (45 minutes). Shivayam and I are meeting weekly on this and I spend most of my spare time on it. 2) We distribute 10 stoves to "beta" testers and get feedback, make suggested modifications. 3) We establish production, marketing and sales to the affluent U.S. camping and backup market. 4) We approach the High Commisioners of Refugee camps to find a test site for a stove modified for their fuel, cooking and production needs. 5) We go successively to other refugee camps, modifying the stoves to fit local needs of fuel, cooking and production. 6) As we fill the refugee camp needs, we consider "stovifying" the surrounding countryside. We would welcome comments from all sides. Tom Reed, Shivayam Ellis, Katherine Cochrane THE BEF STOVEWORKS PS: Paul DeBruicker, Vivian and I hope to be in Illinois in May. Hope you can join us.. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul S. Anderson" To: "Paul DeBruicker" ; Cc: "Apolinário J Malawene" ; "Bob and Karla Weldon" ; Subject: Re: selling stoves - Juntos approach > At 04:30 PM 2/14/02 -0500, Paul DeBruicker wrote: > > > >how do you [anyone, not just Paul A.] get a prototype stove from a lab in > >Denver, or Oregon, or wherever into the hands of people who would actually > >benefit from your development work? It seems that without a workable > >dissemination plan, the design stage is just an academic exercise. > > This is indeed a great challenge. In this message I will outline the plan > that I CURRENTLY have for a dissemination plan, and I welcome comments > that will assist in evaluating and implementing the plan. > > > Paul DB wrote: > >once you have a "winning" design, the work has just begun because of the > >almost complete lack of dissemination infrastructure. > > I (Paul A.) break this into 2 main parts: The physical materials of the > stoves and the education/introduction/"sales" of the stoves to the people > who could use them > > >I have read that to be accepted, the stove has to be designed with the end > >users assistance, with the ability to use locally available materials, and > >ease of construction/maintenance so that the local community can take part > >in the economic benefits. So it appears that an entire decentralized > >construction and distribution network would need to be created at an > >affordable cost, with allowances for local design changes that would suit > >the needs of the regional customer base. > > Paul DB's comment above means that the stove(s) had better be SIMPLE and > locally do-able and inexpensive and flexible for local adaptation. > > >How do you close the gap between the designers and users so that the > >benefits of the stoves are actually realized? > > ********* Start of Paul Anderson's main message***************** > > 1. Each week I experiment with variations of my Juntos ("Together") stove > design, and I allow myself 2 more weeks to finalize a design. I have been > and will continue to describe the design to those on the Stoves listserve, > receive some feedback, and make adjustments. > That design I will take with me to southern Africa on 5 March. There I > will show it to Rotarian (appropriate technology engineering specialist) > Crispin in Swaziland (SZ), and together we will thrash out the "production" > issues, that I see as being mainly "tools" that Crispin (and others) can > make so that local people can go into the Juntos stove business at minimal > cost. > > NOTE A: The stoves efforts are NOT the main objective of my trip to > Africa. I work at a University (Teachers College) there. But my work is > compatible with efforts for the stoves project, especially in the > "non-class" times. > > NOTE B: The Juntos stove is becoming a "stack" of stove components, of > which the crucial one is at the bottom and is a natural convection gasifier > about the size of a 1 or 2 liter (1 or 2 quart) metal can. This weekend I > have expanded from the "Rocket Stove" design (which has continual lateral > feed of fuel) of the upper unit, and am now ALSO having "batch-loaded" > upper units with different functions. (details in separate messages.) > > 2. On my trip to SZ, South Africa (SA) and Mozambique (MZ), I will have 5 > or more of the Juntos stoves with me (or I will make them "on the spot" > with the minimal materials and tools that I will have with me.). I will be > hampered by problems of appropriate fuels (plural) and the lack of > materials that we in North American and Europe take for granted. Although > local "tinsmiths" (sheet-metal workers) will eventually be able to produce > the parts that I want, currently they do not have any stock of what is needed. > > 3. One of my geography students (Apolinario) in MZ has a thesis topic > dealing with community acceptance of biomass briquettes. He and some > wonderful members of Interact (a Rotary sponsored youth group) and some > Scouts of Mozambique will be my key assistants. We will make a stove at > the University where I work and also at the home of (Interactor) Francisco > where we make briquettes. Francisco's mother everyday cooks outside in her > "patio" (nothing like patios in the USA, I assure you.). We must make it > functional in those circumstances before we can proceed to larger > numbers. Apolinario is planning to have a "demonstration cook-out" at the > University campus on the final days I am there in late March. He gets > academic credit for his efforts, and I (we) get feedback about what he shows. > > 4. In order to make plans for the future, I must assume a reasonable > degrees of success with manufacturing techniques (with Crispin) and of > success with cook/social acceptance. (If it does NOT have those successes, > I return to the drawing board.) With reasonable success, I will be laying > plans for a community-awareness-education activity to begin in July when I > am back in southern Africa. > A. Stove makers need to be shown what to make and the easiest ways to > make it. > B. Community people need to be shown the what, why, how etc. of > accomplishing their cooking needs with a different type of stove. The > benefits will need to be explained in terms that they will understand. > > 5. All of the above is influenced by the variations in poverty found in > southern Africa (and elsewhere). Some people have absolutely nothing, but > they could benefit by collection of biomass fuel materials that otherwise > are literally pollution on the city streets. Some other people will desire > an improved stove and purchase the minimal components but "construct" the > Juntos stove themselves. Still others could desire a more "up-scale" > version of the Juntos stove that could be purchased ready-to-use. And I > hope that a "refined" version will also become available, possibly > including the "turbo" forced-air features that Tom Reed is developing. > > 6. Although I can donate many hours to the stoves efforts, there are still > financial costs. For materials such as the demonstration stoves, and for > the tool-sets to get the local production started, there is money > needed. Some of that can repaid (provided as loans for tools rather than > as gifts). Other funding is to do the educational (informational) efforts, > such as printing of informational pages or modest expenses to sustain the > student volunteers, such as a bus ride to a location, or a small snack in a > long work period. This is not "wages" but more like incidental costs or > like "contractual expenses" to get goods delivered. Eventually, some of > these costs could be covered in a "sales commission" or "retailer profit > margin," but at the start they are the financial costs of implementation. > > 7. Sunset Rotary Club members (including myself) have already contributed > about $400 to the stoves and biomass briquettes projects (related parts of > one larger project). It is my intention to request $5000 to $10,000 from > the Rotary District funding. To obtain approval, I must refine and itemize > any cost estimates and give a more detailed timetable. I will also be > giving more information about the stoves themselves, including a cooking > demonstration on Juntos stoves at the District Conference in early June in > Illinois. I do not know if that funding will be approved, but this message > is going to some of the people who will have a say about yes or no. > > 8. Also, I will be providing Juntos stove information to the technical > specialists who can check the heat and efficiency and emissions and > whatever. But as Paul DB appropriately indicated, the dissemination issues > are critical for going from the development laboratory to the overseas > places of need. > > Sincerely, > > Paul > > > Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00 > Rotary University Teacher Grantee to Mozambique >10 mo of 2001-2003 > Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University > Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310 > E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders > > > - > Stoves List Archives and Website: > http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ > http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) > http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) > > Stoves List Moderators: > Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net > Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net > Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com > > List-Post: > List-Help: > List-Unsubscribe: > List-Subscribe: > > Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html > - > Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: > http://www.bioenergy2002.org > http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy > http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification > http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon > > For information about CHAMBERS STOVES > http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm > - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon For information about CHAMBERS STOVES http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm From psanders at ilstu.edu Mon Feb 18 17:35:01 2002 From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:38 2004 Subject: Not-processed biomass fuels, and making pellets In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20020217153551.017fc9d0@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20020218213123.01802980@mail.ilstu.edu> At 06:29 AM 2/18/02 -0700, Thomas Reed wrote: >1) We develop an elegant WoodGas stove burning biomass trash (15 minutes) or >pellets (45 minutes). Shivayam and I are meeting weekly on this and I spend >most of my spare time on it. Tom (and others), please teach me about burning biomass trash in a gasifier without processing it into briquettes or pellets. Tell me about how much to load and how compact it can be and the sizes of pieces of fuel and if they can (or should) be mixed. I have burned some locust tree pods and litter, and also some misc chopped stuff from my city shreader. I am willing to dry future fuel with the excess heat that escapes above my Juntos stove cooking area. And does anyone have info on making "pellets" from sawdust. What I can buy (pellet-stove fuel) is great, but some suitable locally-made pellets would be nice to have. Sizes of half-centimeter to 2 centimeters diameters would be great. Length is not important as long as it is not too short. Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00 Rotary University Teacher Grantee to Mozambique >10 mo of 2001-2003 Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310 E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon For information about CHAMBERS STOVES http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Mon Feb 18 18:23:12 2002 From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:38 2004 Subject: Not-processed biomass fuels, and making pellets In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20020217153551.017fc9d0@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <20020219042225.GA24411@cybershamanix.com> If you look on my website, you'll find two pdf files on briquetting technology and biomass densification. I wish I had more info myself, as I would dearly love to have a screw press for making biomass "logs" and pellets. http://www.cybershamanix.com/stoves/woodgas/briqueting.pdf http://www.cybershamanix.com/stoves/woodgas/densification.pdf Since I can't quite afford a $50K Shimano screw press, I've been thinking of trying to build a hydraulic ram pellet press -- actually just by building an oversize hydraulic log splitter and then adding a removable pellet die system to it, so it would serve as both splitter and pelletizer. Certainly not anything you could use commercially, but it might be interesting for experiments. If anyone has any ideas of any other source of cheap pellet machinery or especailly screw presses, I'd be glad to hear them. On Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 09:42:57PM -0600, Paul S. Anderson wrote: > > And does anyone have info on making "pellets" from sawdust. What I can buy > (pellet-stove fuel) is great, but some suitable locally-made pellets would > be nice to have. Sizes of half-centimeter to 2 centimeters diameters would > be great. Length is not important as long as it is not too short. > -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon For information about CHAMBERS STOVES http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm From CAVM at aol.com Tue Feb 19 02:52:33 2002 From: CAVM at aol.com (CAVM@aol.com) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:38 2004 Subject: Not-processed biomass fuels, and making pellets Message-ID: In a message dated 2/18/2002 10:24:59 PM Central Standard Time, hseaver@cybershamanix.com writes: << If anyone has any ideas of any other source of cheap pellet machinery or especailly screw presses, I'd be glad to hear them. >> ----------------------------------------------- Farmer Automatic introduced a very nice economical, small capacity, low density pellet machine last year or the year before at the Int'l Poultry Expo in Atlanta, GA. I had some of their promotional literature but let it get away. I see it is not on their web page so you may have to email them to get the information. http://www.farmerautomaticusa.com/ Neal Van Milligen Kentucky Enrichment Inc CAVM@AOL.com - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon For information about CHAMBERS STOVES http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm From adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in Tue Feb 19 03:44:13 2002 From: adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in (A.D. Karve) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:38 2004 Subject: selling stoves - WoodGas CampStove approach Message-ID: <000101c1b94e$e0e0c8a0$b452c5cb@adkarvepn2.vsnl.net.in> Dear Tom, your marketing strategy is good for a stove developer in the U.S. We are at a more advantageous position, because we operate in a country in which about 70% of the population still uses biomass fueled stoves. So, we can get our models tested directly in villages around our city. The developers of stoves in the U.S. first think of the campers, and only at a later stage, of the developing countries as a potential market. In our case, the campers' market is so small that we just ignore it. Our primary objective is to develop a stationary model, which would be used by a rural household. Therefore, we do not have to be too particular about the weight and material of construction etc. The campers' models have the advantage that they are metallic and they can be mass produced in a factory. Being portable, they are perhaps better suited for rapid distribution among refugees or among people displaced by earthquakes, floods, etc., but that is not a stable market. The campers' models are also substantially more costly than the models developed by us, which our local artisans produce with the help of a mould, using either clay or cement concrete as the raw material. The heavy weight of our stoves prevents them to be mass produced in a central factory and transported to the potential users all over the country. Secondly, our stoves cannot just be sold over the counter, because they have to be installed by an expert into the kitchen of the client. Thus, there is also a service component to the sale. Ours is therefore a highly decentralised industry, in which patents are out of question, because it would be impossible to monitor their use. We make money by selling the moulds and by charging training fees to the artisans. Artisans, selling about 6000 to 10,000 stoves in a year, can make a net profit of about Rs100,000 to 200,000 per annum, which is comparable to the income of an urban middle class family in India. A.D.Karve -----Original Message----- From: Thomas Reed To: Paul DeBruicker ; stoves@crest.org ; Paul S. Anderson Cc: Bob and Karla Weldon ; Katherine Cochrane ; Shivayam Ellis Date: Monday, February 18, 2002 7:15 PM Subject: selling stoves - WoodGas CampStove approach >Dear Paul, Paul, and Awl: > >Paul D has asked some very prescient questions about propogating biomass >stoves to a world in great need. Paul A has outlined a reasonable plan for >stove dissemination to the poorest of the poor. > >Let me outline our plan of attack for the rest of the developing world. > >1) We develop an elegant WoodGas stove burning biomass trash (15 minutes) or >pellets (45 minutes). Shivayam and I are meeting weekly on this and I spend >most of my spare time on it. > >2) We distribute 10 stoves to "beta" testers and get feedback, make >suggested modifications. > >3) We establish production, marketing and sales to the affluent U.S. camping >and backup market. > >4) We approach the High Commisioners of Refugee camps to find a test site >for a stove modified for their fuel, cooking and production needs. > >5) We go successively to other refugee camps, modifying the stoves to fit >local needs of fuel, cooking and production. > >6) As we fill the refugee camp needs, we consider "stovifying" the >surrounding countryside. > >We would welcome comments from all sides. > >Tom Reed, Shivayam Ellis, Katherine Cochrane THE BEF STOVEWORKS > >PS: Paul DeBruicker, Vivian and I hope to be in Illinois in May. Hope you >can join us.. - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon For information about CHAMBERS STOVES http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm From cree at dowco.com Tue Feb 19 05:52:55 2002 From: cree at dowco.com (John Olsen) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:38 2004 Subject: pelletizer Message-ID: <003a01c1b95d$663aa120$7c8457d1@olsen> We are of course working on the SHIMADA briquettes and BBQ fuel, and now a relatively small Pelletizer, Unit is 6' 10'' X 10' and is 6'2'' tall. I have a pic if anyone is interested. regards John Olsen - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon For information about CHAMBERS STOVES http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm From RSamson at reap-canada.com Tue Feb 19 12:46:14 2002 From: RSamson at reap-canada.com (RSamson@reap-canada.com) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:39 2004 Subject: The Mayon Turbo Stove Message-ID: <3C72D62F.E67CC70B@reap-canada.com> Dear Stovers You may be interested in an ongoing rice hull cooker stove improvement program REAP has been involved in with partner organizations in the Philippines. Detailed information on how to use and build the Mayon Turbo Stove is now on our WEB site at: www.reap-canada.com Please fund below a summary of the projects background and development. Like many developing countries, the Philippines has a growing population and increasing rural poverty, and cooking fuels are becoming increasingly scarce. REAP recently completed a report for NREL on “Strategies for Enhancing Biomass Energy Utilization in the Philippines” and one of the most promising options identified was to utilize rice hulls as a low cost domestic cooking fuel source. There are more than 1.5 million tonnes of recoverable rice hulls in the Philippines which could be used as cooking fuel by more than 1 million families. Using rice hull locally in low cost cookers seemed the ideal way to utilize the resource as it is widely dispersed and of a bulky nature. Rice hull also has the natural advantage of being of a uniform and small size. These characteristics make it relatively easy to design an efficient combustion system for household cooking in comparison to burning with wood or other crop residues. In 2001, REAP acquired a 3 year funding program from the Canadian International Development Agency to introduce an improved rice hull stove into approximately 10,000 households in the Western Visayas region of the Philippines. To improve the stove, we accessed all the major rice hull stoves available in the Philippines including versions from the International Rice Research Institute (IRRI), Philrice, the Central Philippine University (CPU) and a version of the Lo-Trau model developed in Vietnam. Some of these stoves were superior to others but all suffered from from one or several deficiencies including: incomplete combustion, excess air, uncontrollable fuelbed fires, high rice hull consumption and being overly expensive for rural peasants to purchase. We needed to build a stove for under (US) $7.50, as this represented one weeks salary in rural areas of the Western Visayas. Peasants also were used to buying charcoal and firewood stoves made from clay that sell for about (US)$ 0.50. We decided to work with the Lo-Trau model because of its relatively low cost and simple basic design. With our partner organizations, PDG and MASIPAG, we streamlined production improvements to manufacture the stove to get production costs down to (US)$7 per stove. However, we observed that the stoves we were introducing to communities were experiencing problems of incomplete combustion and required constant maintenance and tapping. We made some initial combustion improvements to the stove by lengthening the frustrum (the center cone) from 5 to 7 inches (which also shrank the cone top and concentrated the flame under the pot). We also drilled secondary air holes, 2 to 3 from the top of the cone. To minimize fuelbed fires, we eliminated one of four rows of holes at the base of the fuel bin to reduce upward airflow through the fuel bin. These changes improved the stove, but the flame remained excessively smoky and the stove required regular tapping (although this was reduced) to maintain combustion. The CPU stove we tested had a single air vent pipe through the bottom of the ashpan, which appeared to help reduce smoke events. We decided to experiment with different sized pipes to determine a level of air that would be adequate but not excessive. We noticed that the single pipe caused a blue flame in the center of the cone. However, surrounding this oxygen source, the flame was still an orange-yellow colour. We realized we needed more air mixing in the cone as we perceived there were still oxygen dead spots that led to incomplete combustion of the gases. One option we tested was twin air pipes of 1 inch diameter to increase turbulence inside the cone. They ended up creating vortexes in the flames and appeared to slow the rate of air flow out of the cone (which was excessive in the centre with the single large air pipe). The result of the twin air injectors was that after 3-5 minutes, a blue or nearly colourless flame was present throughout the cone. Maintenance of the stove also was reduced, tapping of the stove was only required after 10-12 minutes to maintain the stove flame. However, we still experienced some smoke events after ten minutes of burning when the rice hull turned to ash and reduced airflow from the holes at the base of the fuel bin. We decided to increase the size of the 10 secondary air vents from ¼ to 3/8 inch. After this modification, we experienced no more smoke events due to oxygen problems. Smoke events only occurred when the flame was going out due to lack of fuel. This occurred generally when the fuel bed turned grey from the hulls being completely burnt out. Simply tapping to introduce more fuel, about every 10 minutes maintained the flame. The new model also has been found to be easier to start, and produces less smoke upon termination. Essentially we believe now the stove has a near perfect air situation. There appears to be no excess air and no oxygen deficient areas of the cone, or oxygen deficient periods during the entire burn cycle. When new fuel is added, smoke infrequently occurs and a clean burning flame returns rapidly. Clean combustion occurs as the new design appears to increase the gases residence time in the inner cone and exposes them to higher temperatures. The rice hull ash falling out is now of a whitish grey colour. The changing nature of the airflow through the fuel bed (as the relatively porous hull turns to ash) is dealt with through the twin air pipes and secondary air at the top of the inner cone. The most important new design improvement appears to be the twin air injectors that create a swirling and mixing action. Older stoves in communities are now being retrofitting with the twin pipes. We have had favorable feedback thus far from communities using the stove. Households are experiencing reductions in rice hull fuel requirements, less maintenance and less smoke. The main activity we are now examining is to build a smaller stove with a 6 inch diameter fuelbed. The 7” diameter fuelbed model now appears to have excessive heat output for smaller pots of rice because of more complete combustion of the rice hulls and gases, and better control of the air flow. The project is still in its first year and we are currently producing and marketing approximately 350 stoves per month. Savings appear considerable for low income rural families purchasing firewood, charcoal and LPG. A user survey found cooking with the Mayon Turbo reduces the annualized cooking cost (annual stove and purchased fuel cost) to only (US) $5.20 per year in Negros, a 91-95% compared to purchasing the aforementioned fuels. A line drawing and instructions on how to build and use the Mayon Turbo Stove can be found at www.reap-canada.com. We would be most willing to work with other groups who are interested in building the improved stove in other rice producing nations. Good luck trying the stove and we look forward to your feedback. Trevor Helwig, Claudia Ho Lem and Roger Samson Resource Efficient Agricultural Production-Canada Box 125, Maison Glenaladale, Ste Anne de Bellevue, Quebec, CANADA H9X 3V9 WWW.REAP-CANADA.COM Tel. (514) 398-7743 Fax (514) 398-7972 "Creating ecological energy, fibre and food production systems" - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon For information about CHAMBERS STOVES http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm From psanders at ilstu.edu Tue Feb 19 15:11:30 2002 From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:39 2004 Subject: The Mayon Turbo Stove In-Reply-To: <3C72D62F.E67CC70B@reap-canada.com> Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20020219185036.01816a50@mail.ilstu.edu> Dear REAPers (if that is an appropriate and respectful name.) I have read all and have printed all of the site. You have a great product. Your manufacturing abilities are impressive. Your pictures and descriptions are great and are a model for others to emulate. There are several similarities of your Mayon stove with the gasifier but yet you are not actually a gasifier of the top-lighted, up-draft type that I am working on for the Juntos stove. Your big advantage is the ability to load extra fuel from the top and continue your burn. Second "advantage" (to some) is that you burn fully to ash, meaning you do NOT produce charcoal that could be removed; your stove consumes the char, yielding heat energy. One disadvantage of that is that you metal will become hotter, and therefore your stove must be of "substantial" metal and not of "tincanium". We must all congratulate you on bringing the cost of your stove down to the US$7 mark. Via the Stoves list serve I will keep you informed of some ideas appropriate (?) for what you are doing. Only if I am incorrect, please comment: I believe that your outer cone (what you call the "main drum" in the list of Materials) is a hopper in which rice hulls are held and then scooped from there and placed into the inner-most circular opening. (nice way to minimize spilling of a fine substance like rice hulls.) But since it does not get hot (except for the lower part with the primary air holes), why not incorporate the air holes into the inner units, and then just have a thin sheet-metal cone to be the hopper for the rice hulls? This would greatly reduce your materials costs. Can you please comment further on your experiences with the "supplementary fuels" (in the "how2 use" document) in relation to your stove. Specifically about coconut husks and corn cobs as being "longer,slower burning". but please tell me (us) about heat generation and need to tend or not tend the fire more. I for one look forward to working with you. Are you willing to do experiments via e-mail? Paul At 05:48 PM 2/19/02 -0500, RSamson@reap-canada.com wrote: >Dear Stovers > >You may be interested in an ongoing rice hull cooker stove improvement >program REAP has been involved in with partner organizations in the >Philippines. Detailed information on how to use and build the Mayon >Turbo Stove is now on our WEB site at: > >www.reap-canada.com > >Please fund below a summary of the projects background and development. > >Like many developing countries, the Philippines has a growing population >and increasing rural poverty, and cooking fuels are becoming >increasingly scarce. REAP recently completed a report for NREL on >“Strategies for Enhancing Biomass Energy Utilization in the Philippines” >and one of the most promising options identified was to utilize rice >hulls as a low cost domestic cooking fuel source. There are more than >1.5 million tonnes of recoverable rice hulls in the Philippines which >could be used as cooking fuel by more than 1 million families. Using >rice hull locally in low cost cookers seemed the ideal way to utilize >the resource as it is widely dispersed and of a bulky nature. Rice hull >also has the natural advantage of being of a uniform and small size. >These characteristics make it relatively easy to design an efficient >combustion system for household cooking in comparison to burning with >wood or other crop residues. > >In 2001, REAP acquired a 3 year funding program from the Canadian >International Development Agency to introduce an improved rice hull >stove into approximately 10,000 households in the Western Visayas region >of the Philippines. To improve the stove, we accessed all the major rice >hull stoves available in the Philippines including versions from the >International Rice Research Institute (IRRI), Philrice, the Central >Philippine University (CPU) and a version of the Lo-Trau model developed >in Vietnam. Some of these stoves were superior to others but all >suffered from from one or several deficiencies including: incomplete >combustion, excess air, uncontrollable fuelbed fires, high rice hull >consumption and being overly expensive for rural peasants to purchase. >We needed to build a stove for under (US) $7.50, as this represented >one weeks salary in rural areas of the Western Visayas. Peasants also >were used to buying charcoal and firewood stoves made from clay that >sell for about (US)$ 0.50. > >We decided to work with the Lo-Trau model because of its relatively low >cost and simple basic design. With our partner organizations, PDG and >MASIPAG, we streamlined production improvements to manufacture the stove >to get production costs down to (US)$7 per stove. However, we observed >that the stoves we were introducing to communities were experiencing >problems of incomplete combustion and required constant maintenance and >tapping. We made some initial combustion improvements to the stove by >lengthening the frustrum (the center cone) from 5 to 7 inches (which >also shrank the cone top and concentrated the flame under the pot). We >also drilled secondary air holes, 2 to 3 from the top of the cone. To >minimize fuelbed fires, we eliminated one of four rows of holes at the >base of the fuel bin to reduce upward airflow through the fuel bin. >These changes improved the stove, but the flame remained excessively >smoky and the stove required regular tapping (although this was reduced) >to maintain combustion. The CPU stove we tested had a single air vent >pipe through the bottom of the ashpan, which appeared to help reduce >smoke events. We decided to experiment with different sized pipes to >determine a level of air that would be adequate but not excessive. We >noticed that the single pipe caused a blue flame in the center of the >cone. However, surrounding this oxygen source, the flame was still an >orange-yellow colour. We realized we needed more air mixing in the cone >as we perceived there were still oxygen dead spots that led to >incomplete combustion of the gases. One option we tested was twin air >pipes of 1 inch diameter to increase turbulence inside the cone. They >ended up creating vortexes in the flames and appeared to slow the rate >of air flow out of the cone (which was excessive in the centre with the >single large air pipe). The result of the twin air injectors was that >after 3-5 minutes, a blue or nearly colourless flame was present >throughout the cone. Maintenance of the stove also was reduced, tapping >of the stove was only required after 10-12 minutes to maintain the stove >flame. However, we still experienced some smoke events after ten >minutes of burning when the rice hull turned to ash and reduced airflow >from the holes at the base of the fuel bin. We decided to increase the >size of the 10 secondary air vents from ¼ to 3/8 inch. After this >modification, we experienced no more smoke events due to oxygen >problems. Smoke events only occurred when the flame was going out due to >lack of fuel. This occurred generally when the fuel bed turned grey from >the hulls being completely burnt out. Simply tapping to introduce more >fuel, about every 10 minutes maintained the flame. The new model also >has been found to be easier to start, and produces less smoke upon >termination. Essentially we believe now the stove has a near perfect air >situation. There appears to be no excess air and no oxygen deficient >areas of the cone, or oxygen deficient periods during the entire burn >cycle. When new fuel is added, smoke infrequently occurs and a clean >burning flame returns rapidly. Clean combustion occurs as the new design >appears to increase the gases residence time in the inner cone and >exposes them to higher temperatures. The rice hull ash falling out is >now of a whitish grey colour. The changing nature of the airflow through >the fuel bed (as the relatively porous hull turns to ash) is dealt with >through the twin air pipes and secondary air at the top of the inner >cone. The most important new design improvement appears to be the twin >air injectors that create a swirling and mixing action. Older stoves in >communities are now being retrofitting with the twin pipes. > >We have had favorable feedback thus far from communities using the >stove. Households are experiencing reductions in rice hull fuel >requirements, less maintenance and less smoke. The main activity we are >now examining is to build a smaller stove with a 6 inch diameter >fuelbed. The 7” diameter fuelbed model now appears to have excessive >heat output for smaller pots of rice because of more complete combustion >of the rice hulls and gases, and better control of the air flow. The >project is still in its first year and we are currently producing and >marketing approximately 350 stoves per month. Savings appear >considerable for low income rural families purchasing firewood, charcoal >and LPG. A user survey found cooking with the Mayon Turbo reduces the >annualized cooking cost (annual stove and purchased fuel cost) to only >(US) $5.20 per year in Negros, a 91-95% compared to purchasing the >aforementioned fuels. > >A line drawing and instructions on how to build and use the Mayon Turbo >Stove can be found at www.reap-canada.com. We would be most willing to >work with other groups who are interested in building the improved stove >in other rice producing nations. > >Good luck trying the stove and we look forward to your feedback. > >Trevor Helwig, Claudia Ho Lem and Roger Samson > >Resource Efficient Agricultural Production-Canada >Box 125, Maison Glenaladale, >Ste Anne de Bellevue, >Quebec, CANADA >H9X 3V9 >WWW.REAP-CANADA.COM >Tel. (514) 398-7743 >Fax (514) 398-7972 > >"Creating ecological energy, fibre and food production systems" > > > > > > >- >Stoves List Archives and Website: >http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ >http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) >http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) > >Stoves List Moderators: >Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net >Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net >Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com > >List-Post: >List-Help: >List-Unsubscribe: >List-Subscribe: > >Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html >- >Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: >http://www.bioenergy2002.org >http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy >http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification >http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon > >For information about CHAMBERS STOVES >http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00 Rotary University Teacher Grantee to Mozambique >10 mo of 2001-2003 Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310 E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon For information about CHAMBERS STOVES http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm From elk at wananchi.com Tue Feb 19 20:37:20 2002 From: elk at wananchi.com (elk) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:39 2004 Subject: The Mayon Turbo Stove In-Reply-To: <3C72D62F.E67CC70B@reap-canada.com> Message-ID: <003c01c1b9d9$9744e100$f840083e@default> Trevor, Claudio and Roger; Congratulations on your success with the Mayon Turbo Stove. This is stirring stuff! Gets my pulse rate up! I've downloaded the info from your site and will make one for testing with sawdust and coffee husk. I'll let you know how it performs as the results come in. elk -------------------------- Elsen L. Karstad elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com Nairobi Kenya - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon For information about CHAMBERS STOVES http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm From ronallarson at qwest.net Tue Feb 19 20:56:23 2002 From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:39 2004 Subject: The Mayon Turbo Stove In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20020219185036.01816a50@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <00a801c1b9dc$2e5439e0$0de46641@computer> Roger (cc Paul and other stovers) 1. Like Paul, I am impressed by your results. But I am afraid I am not yet understanding the geometry. I think I will better understand if you could expand on the sentence on page 3 of your second section called "simplerhsguide" - where you say: "The outer drum is .....attached 1 1/8 inches inside the outer bin to provide effective rice hull flow to the fuel bed. " Could you provide another sketch showing this 1 1/8" dimension? 2. Do you have any measurements on any of the effluent gases? (CO2, CO, O2 %, etc) 3. Any measurements on efficiency? 4. Another sentence that I haven't understood was in the section on operation: "If tapping to introduce new fuel does not immediately restart the fire, the opening between the rice hull outer fuel bin and inner cone can be reopened." These seem to be the same diameter (7") - so perhaps they are arranged vertically by some distance (perhaps like the 1 1/8" mentioned above?) Could you expand on how the reopening is accomplished during operation? 5. It was nice to see that you have been supported by NREL - where I used to work. Can you give more information on the persons there with whom you have been working - and on reports you have supplied to them? 6. Again - a very nice initial report to "stoves" - on what is clearly a very novel and interesting design. Congratulations!! Ron ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul S. Anderson Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2002 6:19 PM Subject: Re: The Mayon Turbo Stove Dear REAPers (if that is an appropriate and respectful name.) I have read all and have printed all of the site. You have a great - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon For information about CHAMBERS STOVES http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm From Carefreeland at aol.com Wed Feb 20 00:32:17 2002 From: Carefreeland at aol.com (Carefreeland@aol.com) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:39 2004 Subject: pelletizer Message-ID: Dear John, I would be intrested in looking at this pelletizer. I'm about to drown in biomass resources (woodchips). Do you have any info on cost? How about operating costs? Daniel Dimiduk - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon For information about CHAMBERS STOVES http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm From RSamson at reap-canada.com Wed Feb 20 08:39:54 2002 From: RSamson at reap-canada.com (RSamson@reap-canada.com) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:39 2004 Subject: The Mayon Turbo Stove In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20020219185036.01816a50@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <3C73EDC1.5FC6C14A@reap-canada.com> Thanks for the feedback on the stove from Paul, Elk, and Ron. We are now in the process of improving some of the terminology to describe the different stove components on our web site so readers will find it easier to follow. Please find below some further explanation which hopefully responds to your initial questions. There are two main components to the cooker. 1. The hopper (or outer fuel bin) which gravity feeds the bulk loose fuels like rice hull, sawdust and coffee hulls into the combustion area. 2. The centrepiece consists of the inner cone and centre drum which are welded together at the base. No air space is left in between to prevent smoke coming up between the two pieces (also rice hull should not be spilled in this area). Small quantities of solid fuels are added directly from the top into the inner cone. When putting together the components, the centrepiece is descended into the hopper until a 1 1/8" gap is left on all sides between the centrepiece and hopper and it is fixed at this location. This spacing enables tapping to gravity feed fuel from the hopper into the combustion area below the centrepiece. The draft created by the fire in the inner cone draws air in through the hopper which prevents fires occuring in the fuel storage area. The holes in the hopper are directly under the centrepiece and provide the air flow to cause pyrolysis in the fuelbed. The suggestion to change the entry of air from the bottom of the centrepiece would provide air above the fuelbed. Initially when we start the stove (or if it goes out) we have no draft. Opening a space between the hopper and centrepiece with your hand or a utensil allows air to pass freely into the inner cone. Once the draft is created the stove itself will draw the air it requires. Opening the large hole accelerates the stoves starting. We close the hole after starting to prevent an excess air situation. The low cost of the cooker is really a function of three things: a simple design which is not material intensive, finding effective and affordable equipment to streamline mass production, and training a dedicated group of people (in our case mainly farmers sons) to build stoves for our partner farmer organizations (who are the stove sellers). The stove will last less than one year if exposed to rain and it burns a lot of solid fuels. It needs to be kept dry. We use 16 gauge steel for the centrepiece and are looking at switching to 16 gauge steel for the hopper as well. The heat intensity created really isn't that bad with rice hulls but it is with hotter burning fuels like coconut shells. We anticipate replacing the centrepiece every 1.5-2 years and the entire unit every 3 to 4 years. As far as maintenance, there is little tapping required to keep the stove functioning or need for manual ash removal. Perhaps the biggest maintenance issue now is to watch the stove for fuelbed fires when it is being used for extended cooking periods (eg greater than 30 minutes). We need to keep adding additional hull or to bury the rice hull material that is against the centre piece if the stove gets quite hot and the rice hull is quite dry. We have data on the efficiency of the Lo Trau cooker. We have not tested our cooker yet but Dean Still has graciously offered to test it for emissions and efficiencies. If anyone is currently assessing emissions of stoves for GHG or household smoke related studies we would be most pleased to provide a stove for your trials. Ralph Overend from NREL was the Technical Monitor on our Subcontractor Report for the "Strategies to Enhance Biomass Energy Utilization in the Philippines". He provided very helpful discussions in creating the overall analysis and provided effective input into improving the economics of stoves analysis. REAP-Canada supported NREL on their USAID project work in the Philippines because we were one of the few organizations that had a history of working in the bioenergy and agriculture fields and existing relationships working with Philippines scientists and peasant support groups. The report can be found at: www.nrel.gov/docs/fy02osti/30813.pdf. An earlier CIDA project allowed us to intially field test the Lo-Trau stove in Negros communities along with other appropriate technology equipment as part of our Agroecological Village development programming. CIDA will feature the stove as part of their presentation on the Canada Climate Change Development Fund at Globe 2002 in Vancouver next month. We have several preliminary reports for CIDA on the poverty alleviation impacts and the GHG mitigation potential of the stove which we will post on our web site. Thanks again for all your positive feedback. We look forward to work with you through the Stoves discussion group to improve it further. Trevor Helwig, Claudia Ho Lem and Roger Samson Resource Efficient Agricultural Production-Canada Box 125, Maison Glenaladale, Ste Anne de Bellevue, Quebec, CANADA H9X 3V9 WWW.REAP-CANADA.COM Tel. (514) 398-7743 Fax (514) 398-7972 "Creating ecological energy, fibre and food production systems" > - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon For information about CHAMBERS STOVES http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm From Carefreeland at aol.com Thu Feb 21 02:40:02 2002 From: Carefreeland at aol.com (Carefreeland@aol.com) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:39 2004 Subject: Fw: NEW VIRUS WATCH Message-ID: <129.cdb697b.29a644b9@aol.com> Virus with no cure. Please, send this information to every person in your address book. If you receive an e-mail that reads "Upgrade Internet" do not open it, as it contains an executable file named "perrin.exe" it will erase all the data in your hard drive and it will stay in your memory. Every time that you upload any data, that data will be automatically erased and you will not be able to use your computer again. This information was published yesterday in the CNN web site. This is a very dangerous virus. To this date. There is no known anti virus program for this particular virus please, forward this information to your friends, so that they will be on the alert, also check the list below, sent by IBM with the names of some e-mails that, if received. SHOULD NOT BE OPENED and must be deleted immediately. Because they contain attached viruses. This way your computer will be safe. The Titles are: 1) buddylst.exe 2) calcul8r.exe 3) deathpr.exe 4) einstein.exe 5) happ.exe 6) girls.exe 7) happy99.exe 8) japanese.exe 9) keypress.exe 10) kitty.exe 11) monday.exe 12) teletubb..exe 13) The Phantom Menace 14) prettypark.exe 15) UP-GRADE INTERNET 16) perrin.exe 17) I love You 18) Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs i9) CELCOM Screen Saver or CELSAVER.EX 20) Win a Holiday (e-mail) 21) JOIN THE CREW 0 PENPALS Subject: Virus Announced by Microsoft This is VERY SERIOUS!! Please forward to everyone you know There is a virus out flow being sent to people via E-mail. lt. is considered the A.l.D.S. VIRUS of computers. It will destroy your memory, sound card and speakers, your drive and it will infect your mouse or pointing device as well as your keyboards, making it so that you can't type and it will not register on the screen. It seIf-terminates only after it eats 5MB of hard drive space and will delete all programs. It will come via an E-mail called "(OPEN. VERY COOL!:)" DELETE IT immediately'! It will basically render your computer useless. Pass this on QUICKLY AND TO AS MANY PEOPLE AS POSSIBLE. Very Urgent, Must Read Please. If you receive an E-mail Titled "Win A Holiday" DO NOT open it. It will erase everything on your hard drive. Forward this letter out to as many people as you can. This is a new, very malicious virus and not many people know about it. This information was announced yesterday morning from Microsoft. Neil Ferrick Compaq Computer Corporation From keith at journeytoforever.org Thu Feb 21 05:39:29 2002 From: keith at journeytoforever.org (Keith Addison) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:39 2004 Subject: Fw: NEW VIRUS WATCH In-Reply-To: <129.cdb697b.29a644b9@aol.com> Message-ID: Carefreeland@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 2/21/02 7:22:14 AM Eastern Standard Time, >garyk@donet.com writes: This is a hoax. Virus hoaxes are almost as common as viruses, and cause much damage. CHECK FIRST with the virus info sites before distributing such things to "every person in your address book". If you use Windows software it is your obligation to other Internet users to make sure that your system is properly patched and updated and that effective, updated, anti-virus software is installed and active. Furthermore, this is an OLD hoax - it dates from January 1999. The Perrin.exe hoax: http://vil.mcafee.com/dispVirus.asp?virus_k=10417& McAfee.com - Virus Information Library Windows security updates: http://windowsupdate.microsoft.com http://securityresponse.symantec.com/ Symantec Security Response http://www.mcafee.com/anti-virus/default.asp? McAfee.com - Anti-Virus Keith Addison > >> >> >>Virus with no cure. >> >>Please, send this information to every person in your address book. >> >>If you receive an e-mail that reads "Upgrade Internet" do not open it, as >>it contains an executable file named "perrin.exe" it will erase all the >>data in your hard drive and it will stay in your memory. >> >>Every time that you upload any data, that data will be automatically >>erased and you will not be able to use your computer again. >> >>This information was published yesterday in the CNN web site. >> >>This is a very dangerous virus. >> >>To this date. There is no known anti virus program for this particular >>virus please, forward this information to your friends, so that they will >>be on the alert, also check the list below, sent by IBM with the names of >>some e-mails that, if received. SHOULD NOT BE OPENED and must be deleted >>immediately. Because they contain attached viruses. >> >>This way your computer will be safe. >> >>The Titles are: >> >>1) buddylst.exe >> >>2) calcul8r.exe >> >>3) deathpr.exe >> >>4) einstein.exe >> >>5) happ.exe >> >>6) girls.exe >> >>7) happy99.exe >> >>8) japanese.exe >> >>9) keypress.exe >> >>10) kitty.exe >> >>11) monday.exe >> >>12) teletubb..exe >> >>13) The Phantom Menace >> >>14) prettypark.exe >> >>15) UP-GRADE INTERNET >> >>16) perrin.exe >> >>17) I love You >> >>18) Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs >> >>i9) CELCOM Screen Saver or CELSAVER.EX >> >>20) Win a Holiday (e-mail) >> >>21) JOIN THE CREW 0 PENPALS Subject: Virus >> >>Announced by Microsoft >> >>This is VERY SERIOUS!! Please forward to everyone you know >> >>There is a virus out flow being sent to people via E-mail. lt. is >>considered the A.l.D.S. VIRUS of computers. >> >>It will destroy your memory, sound card and speakers, your drive and it >>will infect your mouse or pointing device as well as your keyboards, making >>it so that you can't type and it will not register on the screen. It >>seIf-terminates only after it eats 5MB of hard drive space and will delete >>all programs. >> >>It will come via an E-mail called "(OPEN. VERY COOL!:)" DELETE IT >>immediately'! It will basically render your computer useless. >> >>Pass this on QUICKLY AND TO AS MANY PEOPLE AS POSSIBLE. >> >>Very Urgent, Must Read >> >>Please. >> >>If you receive an E-mail Titled "Win A Holiday" DO NOT >>open it. >>It will erase everything on your hard drive. >> >>Forward this letter out to as many people as you can. >> >>This is a new, very malicious virus and not many people >>know about it. >> >>This information was announced yesterday morning from >>Microsoft. >> >>Neil Ferrick >> >>Compaq Computer Corporation - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon For information about CHAMBERS STOVES http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm From keith at journeytoforever.org Thu Feb 21 06:26:11 2002 From: keith at journeytoforever.org (Keith Addison) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:39 2004 Subject: Fwd: Help us turn our sawdust into fuel - please Message-ID: Can anyone help Simon? Please reply to him direct. Keith Addison >From: "Simon Checkley" >To: keith@journeytoforever.org >Subject: Help us turn our sawdust into fuel - please >Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 11:37:34 +0000 > >Dear Keith > >I am writing on behalf of the Matumaini Rehabilitation Centre - Kenya > >Matumaini is a centre (registered as a Self-help group & Charity No. >283692) that provides education and medical care for disabled Kenyan >children. There are about 45 children with either physical or >mental disabilities who stay at the centre during term time and go >to the local primary school for their education. Our aim is to >integrate children with disabilities into the community as far as >possible thus giving those children a sense of self-worth and >dignity. There is also a vocational training school for a further >40 students, again there is a mix of able-bodied and students with >disabilities. Within the centre, there is also a clinic and a >nursery for the younger children. In addition, the centre supports >a further 40 disabled children in the community, providing funds for >school fees, surgery etc. > >The centre comprises a hostel that costs about £12,000 per year to >operate, the training school (about £6,000 per annum) and the clinic >(about £3,000 per annum). Financing these projects is a continuing >struggle as funds are from private sources. However the Government >assists by providing teachers within the primary school and >occasionally some maize is donated to the hostel. > >The centre is located in an area with many sawmills and many large >mountains of sawdust that are just left to rot. I was wondering if >you could give us any advice on how I may be able to turn this >sawdust into fuel for the centre, preferably a low cost method. > >I'd be very greatful for any advice you could offer. > >All correspondence should be addressed to Mr. S. Checkley, Box 62, >Molo, Kenya – my email is simoncheckley@hotmail.com > > > > >Yours sincerely > > > > >Simon Checkley >Marketing Executive - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon For information about CHAMBERS STOVES http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm From JEFF.FORSSELL at ssvh.se Thu Feb 21 07:35:06 2002 From: JEFF.FORSSELL at ssvh.se (Jeff Forssell) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:39 2004 Subject: Help us turn our sawdust into fuel - please Message-ID: The Mayon stove (for rice hulls) is supposed to work at least as well with sawdust see: www.reap-canada.com/Reports/how2useRHS.htm - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon For information about CHAMBERS STOVES http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm From psanders at ilstu.edu Thu Feb 21 12:05:55 2002 From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:39 2004 Subject: Juntos (Together) stove Feb 2002 Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20020221151808.0183c930@mail.ilstu.edu> Stovers and other Friends, This is the first (pictorial) part of my report on the February 2002 developments with the Juntos (Together) stove.  The report includes 6 small-format pictures.  If your computer does not read in these pictures, please contact me if you would like to have them.  I have sent it to myself twice as a forward, and that seems to work.  But it does NOT seem to "copy" and "paste", so you might not be able to save it as a word processor document. Since its inception a couple of months ago, the Juntos stove has been modified substantially to simplify it.  It still is a "stack" of burners, etc. on top of each other, but now each burner or cooking unit or chimney unit can be individually removed without moving any other unit.  This is because of multiple racks as you can see in the first and second photographs.    Picture 1 is below. Picture 1 is above. They are NOT grills nor grates.   They are RACKS to hold units in place.   The vertical (white) construction is cement blocks, but people could use bricks or hard mud or metal or stones or other materials (even wood if care is taken to not expose it to the flames.) My Juntos stoves is inside a metal tool shed at my home.   The temperature during the time of these photos was about 45 degrees F (about 12-14 centigrade).  No wind because I am inside the shed (with the doors wide open.) Picture 2 is below. Picture 2 is above. You are viewing a gasifier in the bottom level and an internally tapered chimney in the second level.  More about the levels in a later message. Picture 3 below show the seven gasifiers, of which I made six myself (except for the one on the far right end that fits into the metal box next to it.) Pictures 4 and 5 (below) show the top and bottom of one gasifier made from a #10 tin can with an outer metal "jacket" for pre-heating secondary air. And picture 6 below shows that gasifier burning. End of this message.  Another message with text only comes soon. Paul Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00 Rotary University Teacher Grantee to Mozambique >10 mo of 2001-2003 Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310 E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: jpg00662.jpg Type: application/octet-stream Size: 58240 bytes Desc: "http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm" Url : http://listserv.repp.org/pipermail/stoves/attachments/20020221/f62dc0e2/jpg00662.obj -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: jpg00661.jpg Type: application/octet-stream Size: 56952 bytes Desc: "For information about CHAMBERS STOVES" Url : http://listserv.repp.org/pipermail/stoves/attachments/20020221/f62dc0e2/jpg00661.obj -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: jpg00660.jpg Type: application/octet-stream Size: 59241 bytes Desc: "" Url : http://listserv.repp.org/pipermail/stoves/attachments/20020221/f62dc0e2/jpg00660.obj -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: jpg00659.jpg Type: application/octet-stream Size: 60636 bytes Desc: "http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon" Url : http://listserv.repp.org/pipermail/stoves/attachments/20020221/f62dc0e2/jpg00659.obj -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: jpg00658.jpg Type: application/octet-stream Size: 61432 bytes Desc: "http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification" Url : http://listserv.repp.org/pipermail/stoves/attachments/20020221/f62dc0e2/jpg00658.obj From atprojects at global.net.pg Thu Feb 21 14:47:29 2002 From: atprojects at global.net.pg (ATprojects Inc.) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:39 2004 Subject: Pictures !! Message-ID: I live and work in Papua New Guinea where telephone connections are bad and speeds are slow, over the past few weeks members have been posting pictures as well as text .... maybe in the developed world this is useful but here in PNG it takes "hours" to down load these pictures !! May be we could have a system where members could request pictures? I do not want to leave the list as its useful to our work here, but the current system is not working for us ..... what do other people in the developing world think? Regards Steve Layton The information contained in this email message is intended only for the addressee. If you are not the intended recipient you must not use, disclose, copy or distribute this message or the information in it. If you have received this message in error, please email the sender immediately." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ATprojects is based in Goroka, Eastern Highlands Province. We work with both district and provincial governments, churches, rural communities and other NGOs in the Eastern Highlands Province. Our aim is to enable rural people to use appropriate technologies which give them more control over their lives and which contribute to the sustainable development of their communities. For more information on our work go to http://www.global.net.pg/atprojects This email may be confidential and/or privileged. Only the intended recipient may access or use it. We use virus scanning software but exclude all liability for viruses or similar in any attachment. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------" - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon For information about CHAMBERS STOVES http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm From willing at mb.sympatico.ca Thu Feb 21 15:13:37 2002 From: willing at mb.sympatico.ca (Scott Willing) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:40 2004 Subject: Pictures !! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3C7547FF.27777.61EFF1@localhost> Steve, List members who posted the pictures took care to make them relatively small and invited comment specifically as to whether the size was a problem. They are clearly sensitive to the bandwidth issue. My connection is very slow by North American standards (28.8k at best) and the pictures weren't a problem for me. But I know what it is like when someone casually attaches a Word document of 500kB or more (!!) without a second thought. Sorry to hear that the pictures were a stress for you to receive. I'm afraid the only reasonable solution is to post pictures on a website somewhere and provide links, so that viewing is optional. -Scott Willing Date sent: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 09:18:58 +1100 To: stoves@crest.org From: "ATprojects Inc." Subject: Pictures !! > I live and work in Papua New Guinea where telephone connections are bad and > speeds are slow, over the past few weeks members have been posting pictures > as well as text .... maybe in the developed world this is useful but here > in PNG it takes "hours" to down load these pictures !! > > May be we could have a system where members could request pictures? > > I do not want to leave the list as its useful to our work here, but the > current system is not working for us ..... what do other people in the > developing world think? > > Regards > > Steve Layton - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon For information about CHAMBERS STOVES http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Thu Feb 21 17:29:46 2002 From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:40 2004 Subject: Pictures !! In-Reply-To: <3C7547FF.27777.61EFF1@localhost> Message-ID: <3C75BB43.3040605@cybershamanix.com> Yes, but that was last one was actually 480KB. Or so says my browser. And I think there have been numerous requests on both stoves and gas-l to have the list owner simply block all attachments. It would be a very simple thing to do, and likewise a very simple thing to create a place on the website to send the pictures to instead. Frankly, I have a hard time understanding why, especially given the international often 3rd world nature of this list, attachments are allowed at all. And although I have a dsl line here, I have myself experienced sitting in a hotel room trying to get my email over a long distance telephone line, and totally being unable to download *any* of my mail because someone sent a picture to a list I was on. It simply is a bad idea. That's what websites are for. Scott Willing wrote: > Steve, > > List members who posted the pictures took care to make them > relatively small and invited comment specifically as to whether the > size was a problem. They are clearly sensitive to the bandwidth > issue. > > My connection is very slow by North American standards (28.8k at > best) and the pictures weren't a problem for me. But I know what it > is like when someone casually attaches a Word document of 500kB > or more (!!) without a second thought. > > Sorry to hear that the pictures were a stress for you to receive. I'm > afraid the only reasonable solution is to post pictures on a website > somewhere and provide links, so that viewing is optional. > > -Scott Willing > > > Date sent: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 09:18:58 +1100 > To: stoves@crest.org > From: "ATprojects Inc." > Subject: Pictures !! > > >>I live and work in Papua New Guinea where telephone connections are bad and >>speeds are slow, over the past few weeks members have been posting pictures >>as well as text .... maybe in the developed world this is useful but here >>in PNG it takes "hours" to down load these pictures !! >> >>May be we could have a system where members could request pictures? >> >>I do not want to leave the list as its useful to our work here, but the >>current system is not working for us ..... what do other people in the >>developing world think? >> >>Regards >> >>Steve Layton >> > > > - > Stoves List Archives and Website: > http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ > http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) > http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) > > Stoves List Moderators: > Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net > Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net > Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com > > List-Post: > List-Help: > List-Unsubscribe: > List-Subscribe: > > Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html > - > Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: > http://www.bioenergy2002.org > http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy > http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification > http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon > > For information about CHAMBERS STOVES > http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm > > -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon For information about CHAMBERS STOVES http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm From psanders at ilstu.edu Thu Feb 21 18:13:20 2002 From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:40 2004 Subject: Juntos Stove text message Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20020221162210.01839d00@mail.ilstu.edu> Juntos (Together) stove -- Part 2 (text message)       Written 21/Feb/2002. It is called the Juntos (which in Portuguese and Spanish means Together) Stove because different aspects came from different sources, and we bring it together in this stove. You should have received the previous message with the 6 pictures included. Mostly I am burning standard "pellet stove" pellets of compressed sawdust.  Great fuel.  I have burned other biomass with good success, including yard waste, and locust tree pods, and briquettes mainly from paper pulp and sawdust/wood shavings.   The briquettes are intentionally broken into pieces (to gain surface area) and do not last as long as the pellets.  I am still working on better briquette-type fuel for the gasifier. As shown in picture 3 I have experimented with about 7 sizes and variations of gasifiers.  ALL of them do work.  Problem of the smallest (a typical soup can) is that a gust of wind can easily extinguish the upper (secondary) burning.   To avoid that, an attached permanent chimney would be beneficial.   That chimney would also make the unit as tall as the others, so that it would nicely fit into the same vertical space in the lower chamber of the stove. Term:   A "stove" can have burners (plural and of various types), chimney, chambers (to place the burners) and assorted ways to transfer the heat to the cooking pot or cooking device.   Some have very few, some have a lot of pieces.  The word "stove" is generic and is NOT descriptive of all the different ways people think of stoves. Natural convection gasifiers of the IDD (inverted downdraft - Reed-Larson) type do work VERY well.  Basic construction is seen in Pictures 4 and 5.  Materials:  1.  Tin can that only had the top removed.  Diameters and heights give different characteristics of length of the burn, etc. 2.  Air pipe made from a length of pipe about 20 cm (8 minches). I use aluminum in part because I had pieces laying around.  You do not need thick stuff.  One gasifier has a pipe cut from a leg of an old folding lawn chair.  One gasifier has a square-bottom “U” bracket that was pounded together at the top to make a triangular pipe.  That one was too small, but triangular pipe might be very viable in some situations, especially because the “Karla Key” (discussed below) makes a nice triangular hole for inserting the triangular pipe. 3.  Two screws (I use self-tapping metal screws) long enough to go through the bottom of the tin can and into the pipe.  I like at least one of the screws to be long enough to go all the way through the top-side do the pipe and actually screw into the metal grate. 4.  Metal grate (see pictures to see a nice size of holes).  I went to the junkyard and ripped a perforated metal cover (about 80 by 80 cm = 32x32 minches) from something.  It is soft steel and I can cut it with decent tin-snips.  I draw on it the diameter of the tin can and then another circle (or odd shape) about 2.5 cm (one minch) bigger.  I cut the outer circle, and then cut in a radial way inwards to the inner circle, creating tabs.  Then I bend (by hand with gloves and pliers) the "tabs" so that they help support the grate horizontally when it is eventually pushed into the can until it rests on the top of the air-pipe.  Note:  No tab on the part that is to sit on the air pipe. 5.  Outer jacket.  Metal.  From another can, or from sheet metal or from stove-pipe or whatever.  It must have about one cm (0.2 minch) of space (let's call it a "gap for secondary air") on all sides of the tin can.  Too much space and too little space are not good, but about a cm seems about right.   (I do not measure it; I do it by "eye-ball".)   The outer jacket must allow air to enter in from the bottom, and it is good (I think, but have not tested) if the gap is not open at the top end.  More in the construction notes below. Tools for the gasifier construction: 1.  Hammer (or a nice rock that fits your hand well) 2.  Tin snips 3.  Screwdriver (or nut driver if you have hex heads on the screws) 4.  A "Karla Key" which is actually a can-opener of the type that makes a triangular punched hole into a closed tin can. (commonly known as a "church key" or a beer can opener before the advent of tab-tops, etc.)  Named after Mrs. Karla Weldon.  The real Karla Key has a screwdriver at the non-punch end, replacing the need for item #3 above.  Karla Keys should be made in different sizes, especially for the "reach" of the triangular punch point being increased to make holes further in, that is, not so near the edge where the punch grips the side of the can. 5.  One hack saw (the blade is the important part.) 6.  Yes, a power drill.   I am sure it can be done without the power, but I am trying to save time.  I use it to drill 2 holes in the bottom of the tin can and into the air pipe, so I can drive in the screws more easily.   I can also use it to make holes in the outer third of the air pipe (think of them like holes on a simple reed flute.)  Sizes not yet determined, but about 2 - 3 mm ( about 1/10 minch) in diameter.   Some of my air pipes do not have any of these flute holes because I let the primary air enter the outside end of the air pipe. 7.  (An extra tool for other jobs is listed here, but actually I made my own.)  I made a nice hole- punch by doing a diagonal cut (by hack saw) on the end of a piece of pipe maybe 15 to 20 cm long with about the same diameter of most of my air pipes, about 2 - 3 cm of diameter.  Best if it is steel or iron, but seems to work with aluminum too.  Good to have a sharp-ish point.  I use it by hitting the other end with the hammer or rock.  I might make several of these with different diameters. Assembly:  (Seems to be different each time I make one, so this is not Gospel).  A.  Prepare the air pipe.  I like a 45 degree or more shallow angle on the inside end of the air pipe.   Outside “flute-type” holes are optional, or can be added later. B.  Punch a hole (with Karla Key) into the side of the tin can near the closed bottom.  Avoid the area of the seam of the can.  Or you can use the home-made punch, or even use the air pipe itself.   This should result with the air pipe very close to the bottom of the inside of the can. C.  Push in the air pipe, trying to NOT make a big hole around it.  No space for air leaks is best, but really not too important if the fire is to be on "high" with plenty of primary air.  Besides, some mud or furnace putty or other stuff (foil rap, etc.) will effectively plug the hole if it is too big.  Push the air pipe until it is about half way across the bottom of the can.  I like to have the diagonal cut turned downwards because it could help spread out the primary air.  But that is not confirmed as being important. D.  Drill 2 holes appropriate for the 2 screws to grip the can bottom and the air pipe.  A long one only needs to start coming out the top side of the air pipe. E.  Insert the grate, circular in format, supported by the tabs, snuggly fitting, beat it into place to rest on the air pipe (No tab at the air pipe, right !!) F.  Continue with the long screw(s) that self-tap into the holes of the grate.  Make it snug.  Pick up the unit by the air pipe and notice how much the air pipe is like a handle.  (Do not smoke it, but it sure looks like Popeye's pipe from the cartoons.)   Yes, the air pipe IS the handle, but caution about it becoming hot at the late stages of the gasification burn -- especially if it is aluminum. G.  Around the upper lip of the up-right can you are to make a ring of holes for the secondary air to enter the can.  Use the Karla Key.  Makes no difference if you punch inwards or outwards, but outwards leaves no pointy things sticking inside.  Be careful you do not dimple the can too much.  Yes, you can use a power drill.  My holes with the Karla Key are triangles about 5 mm on each side.   Number and size of the holes is a topic for someone's thesis.  I just put in what I think seems reasonable, depending on the size of the can. H.  The jacket and the resultant gap can be pretty or not, just so it is functional.  The easiest jacket is another can slightly bigger in diameter.  You can cut out both ends, but you could also leave the jacket can with its bottom intact, but you will then need to put in the air pipe after the 2 cans are together.  You WANT air to get into the gap at the bottom of the jacket, so leave notches as seen in Picture 5.  Or if you have a bottom on the outer jacket can, then use the Karla Key to punch holes into the lower SIDE of the outer can, as can be barely seen in the lower side of the 6th gasifier from the left in Picture 3.  I like this because the triangle pieces from the Karla Key punches act as spacers to maintain the gap at the bottom of the joined cans. I.  To finish, you need to do something about the upper end of the gap.  Picture 4 shows tabs bent over from the jacket to the inner can.  Sometimes I have plugged the gap with aluminum foil.  Some gasifiers (like the 4th one from left in Picture 3) have a jacket of aluminum “dryer hose” or some such name.  Nice stuff for experimenting.  I got it at the Menards (Home Depot type store).  It is rigidly stretchy (    ) and then I bend in the top part to close off the gap.  I bought 3 diameters, so I will someday make a 10 minch (25 cm) diameter gasifier with whatever height I want.  (Oh, I forgot to tell you that I probably made another 5 or 8 gasifiers that either did not survive to be photographed or were too ugly to be recognized as a gasifier.) Hey, the gasifier is finished.  Total costs are very low, but the life span is not what I was after in the experiments.  Do some good design work and use quality new materials and you could make some really expensive gasifiers.  Below I discuss how this thing works, which is what is important to me. Operations.  See Picture 1.  The spacing of the racks is made to match the heights of the components.  What is shown is set for the larger gasifiers like a #10 tin or a paint can.  When in use, because of the rack, there is about a 5 to 8 mm space between the top of the gasifier and the bottom of the next unit above it.  That does not seem to be a problem, and might even be mandatory to ensure sufficient air entering the bottom of the intermediate level units. In previous messages I described how I light it very easily (sawdust and wood shavings mixed with torch fuel (like kerosene?).   One match almost always does it. A very important element is the chimney effect.  I get that by placing a cylinder (can with no ends) over the functioning gasifier.  This can be in the stove, or away from the stove where you can use a taller chimney.  When in the stoves with its racks at fixed heights, if I want more chimney, I put another can on the next higher rack, like the smaller diameter can seen in Picture 1 behind the flame. The chimney can in Picture 2 is special because it has in inner taper to funnel upwards the flames to a smaller hole than at the bottom.  Picture 2 shows that I could benefit by an even wider diameter chimney at the lower end.  Picture 1 is NOT just a “best shot” picture.   The flames stayed like that while I fiddled with the camera.  Without a chimney, the flames will flicker as is seen in Picture 6. Cooking:  With Noeli, Sarah and Ed, I have now cooked a macaroni meal, boiled water, cooked hot dogs in water, made porridge, and fried an egg.  I know that I could have multiple gasifiers working at the lower level, and have plenty of heat above.   Additional variables to be considered include: A.  Diameter of the gasifier B.  Height of the gasifier C.  Amount of fuel D.  Type of fuel E.  Control of primary and secondary air. But there is more to it than that. Please remember that this is the JUNTOS STOVE.  It is TOGETHER, and thus far it I have focused on the Reed-Larson gasifier with the Anderson air pipe (Paul’s pipe) and the Karla Key and some burning of briquettes.  There are more contributions included: Think of the Juntos stove (as shown in the pictures, and as it might become eventually) as a multi-layered stove.  Three layers are shown in Picture 1:  Gasifier at the bottom, then the middle layer (with the chimney in place), and then the top layer (for the pot or for more chimney or for whatever).  It is the WHATEVER that is important.  Here is my list of units that can be in the middle or top layers, sometimes functioning WITHOUT a gasifier below them: 1.  Chimney unit 2.  Intermediate flame unit (IFU) (to be discussed)          a.  Open side, ala Rocket Stove,          b.  Closed sides 3.  Char-burning unit 4.  Cook-pot unit (directly above the gasifier) 5.  Insert a gasifier WITHOUT  as gasifier below, OR with a gasifier below that has its heat ducted to not come under the gasifier in the middle level, that is, with a unique small chimney. 6.  Fuel-drying unit (does not burn the future-fuel), could be on a 4th or 5th level of the racks of the stove. 7.  Weldon Window (to be discussed) 8.  Water heater 9.  Oven, griddle, plancha, other ways that people like to cook, all treated separately from the issues of the fuels and the ways that they are burned. Results of experiments: A.  Intermediate flame units (IFU):   In its simplest form, an intermediate flame unit (IFU) is a can that holds fuels and sits on a layer (or two) above a gasifier.  Therefore, it has some openings in the bottom.  My nicest one had holes simply punched with the previously described home-made punch from a piece of pipe.   The punch leaves a pointed tab facing inward into the IFU can, thereby available to support the fuel and thus helping the flow of air into the can under the fuel.  The holes in the bottom allow the heat and air and other stuff from the gasifier to enter into the bottom of the intermediate flame unit.  This helps light the fuels quickly (therefore with less smoke from the IFU).  “Regular” combustion occurs in the IFU, and the fuel goes from fuel to ash, with no saving of char, etc.  If the IFU has an LLL (Low Lateral Loading) side opening into which fuel is pushed, it is quite similar to a Rocket Stove.   It will roar with flames.  Thank you Larry and Dean and Aprovecho for this nice aspect of stoves. If the IFU does not have an LLL opening, it can only be fueled from the top.  Here is where you place a nice briquette inside.  Be sure it stands up vertically and can get air from below to its center hole.  Within a very short time being placed over a functioning gasifier, this briquette has a beautiful flame coming up that center hole, and can also get nice burning on the outside of the briquette.  Thank you Richard Stanley and Legacy Foundation for being champions for the briquettes with holes.  When the briquette is dying down, grab the intermediate flame unit (IFU) by its handle or with tongs or with good gloves.  Pull it off of the rack, drop in another briquette and place it back into burning position above the gasifier.   How about 10 seconds to reload the briquette burner?  Maybe less time.  Certainly not very disruptive to the cooking process. Better IFUs could have some air controls at the bottom or lower sides.  Also, when the IFU is burning, the cook can remove the gasifier (while the IFU continue the cooking), can empty the char from the gasifier, re-load the gasifier, re-light it easily (draft will be strong above the gasifier), and continue.   Or, simply put an empty can under the IFU to catch the ash that will fall down. The name of the game is CONTROL of the amount of heat needed by the cook.   Not as simple as a thermostat controlled burner on a modern fancy stove.  But much much more control than what cooks in developing countries have had in the past.   And it is with biomass fuel. B.  The Weldon Window.   Bob Weldon is a very good friend of mine.  When he came to see my early efforts to place a Rocket stove on top of a gasifier, he simply said.  “When the fire in the Rocket Stove dies down, you can put a pot into the hole and cook with the heat from the gasifier.”   Well, my hole for sticks was rather small (as appropriate for a Rocket Stove), so I enlarged it and started putting pot-type stuff in it.  Well, the opening needs to be pretty big, so the Weldon Window is actually like putting a pot into the chimney.  You can close the window, or you can let the pot block the window hole, or do not even worry about blocking the window.  And, because the Weldon Window is actually part of one to the types of units to slide onto and off of the racks in the intermediate level or even on the top level, it can be easily removed from the vertical column of fire and heat, checked for what is cooking, stirred, seasoned, returned to the fire, etc.  Thank you Bob Weldon for a nice addition to the Juntos Stove project. C.  Interchangeable parts:  With the above units, we can have fires ranging from major heat (as with a gasifier on full, with one or even two IFU stacked on top of it) down to simmering with low heat from charcoal (produced in the gasifier from biomass) or with low primary air to the gasifier, or on small diameter units, or on larger units with variations of types of fuels for high or low heat.  A functioning gasifier under a blazing intermediate fuel unit (IFU) can be removed and placed under a different pot that needs only low heat.  Also, when the gasification stops (and only charcoal remains), the gasifier unit  that has the following characteristics:   The air pipe becomes hot all the way to the outer end because the charcoal is sitting on the grate that is touching the air pipe.  But it does not smoke when it stops gasifying because the fumes go up into the IFU above it.  The gasifier can be easily removed, and the hot charcoal can either be used in a charcoal burner or be placed in an air-tight container (a paint bucket works beautifully, thanks Dan Dimiduk) to be totally extinguished in a few minutes, but dry and ready to be burned later. We need to see the Juntos Stove as being highly flexible.  We are really dealing with “combustion units”, that is, how to get the heat when and where we want it.  The highly related issues of fuel types and cooking preferences are important, but that is where localized variations are allowed, tolerated, encouraged and essential. Note:  Let’s be serious.  ALL of our innovations are not so 100% new.  Gasification, briquette, stick in wood from the side of a fire, stacking on of chimney segments, have an air pipe, open a window to put a pot into the chimney, etc, etc were not first invented by anyone alive today.  Ancient people probably did such things in many different places at many different times and may or may not have even understood what they did.  We are today dealing with some refinements (maybe), but especially we have better understanding of the processes and the objectives and how to accomplish the goals.   And there are still numerous additions to bring TOGETHER in the Juntos Stove.  We all await the contribution of others.  And I can hardly wait to hear how Crispin and the REAP people and Larry and other “engineer-type” people can take “tincanium” stoves to better levels.  Also, EVERYTHING needs testing at the same time that we are taking the stoves to the people who need them NOW. ***** So, some of you wanted to know about the Juntos Stove.  Some said they will do some testing of it.  Sorry, none of my tin cans are currently for sale.  But why would you want a gasifier or a total Juntos Stove from me?  You can certainly make your own and replicate all that I have experienced.  Please make it and please test it and please tell us about your experiences.  I will try to be helpful.  But on 5 to 30 March I will be in Africa and e-mail messages are more difficult to make and send from there.  I can read them but not answer easily. Good luck.  It is fun doing stoves work Juntos (Together) with you. Paul Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D.,  Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00 Rotary University Teacher Grantee to Mozambique >10 mo of 2001-2003 Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University Normal, IL  61790-4400   Voice:  309-438-7360;  FAX:  309-438-5310 E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders From psanders at ilstu.edu Thu Feb 21 18:42:21 2002 From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:40 2004 Subject: Pictures !! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20020221224606.01813440@mail.ilstu.edu> Stovers, I hope that my inclusion of six small pictures into an e-mail message (not as an attachment) is not causing problems for others. I request that Steve and others specifically reply about how well or how poorly the message with INCLOSED images was received. Sorry if I have been part of the problem. Paul At 09:18 AM 2/22/02 +1100, ATprojects Inc. wrote: >I live and work in Papua New Guinea where telephone connections are bad and >speeds are slow, over the past few weeks members have been posting pictures >as well as text .... Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00 Rotary University Teacher Grantee to Mozambique >10 mo of 2001-2003 Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310 E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon For information about CHAMBERS STOVES http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Thu Feb 21 19:26:03 2002 From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:40 2004 Subject: Pictures !! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020222052558.GA29079@cybershamanix.com> Paul, I guess you're not understanding how that works -- it's the same thing, it was a very large (480kb) message. Perhaps if you had sent one at a time, it would have helped, but I quite well recall having a email account with a 500k limit, so that one message (or the six pix one at a time within a short time) would have jammed the account, requiring me to call the admin to fix it. Or as I said before, try getting something like that over a bad connection, or just a long distance connection when you're traveling, I've had a number of times in the past when I've had to call the ISP to have them delete a large email in my account which kept killing my download, totally blocking me from getting all the rest of my email. Very frustrating! The bottom line is that pictures belong on websites, not in email, at least to not to lists. On Thu, Feb 21, 2002 at 10:50:25PM -0600, Paul S. Anderson wrote: > Stovers, > > I hope that my inclusion of six small pictures into an e-mail message (not > as an attachment) is not causing problems for others. I request that > Steve and others specifically reply about how well or how poorly the > message with INCLOSED images was received. > > Sorry if I have been part of the problem. > > Paul > > At 09:18 AM 2/22/02 +1100, ATprojects Inc. wrote: > >I live and work in Papua New Guinea where telephone connections are bad and > >speeds are slow, over the past few weeks members have been posting pictures > >as well as text .... > > Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00 > Rotary University Teacher Grantee to Mozambique >10 mo of 2001-2003 > Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University > Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310 > E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders > > > - > Stoves List Archives and Website: > http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ > http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) > http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) > > Stoves List Moderators: > Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net > Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net > Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com > > List-Post: > List-Help: > List-Unsubscribe: > List-Subscribe: > > Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html > - > Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: > http://www.bioenergy2002.org > http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy > http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification > http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon > > For information about CHAMBERS STOVES > http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon For information about CHAMBERS STOVES http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm From willing at mb.sympatico.ca Thu Feb 21 21:07:52 2002 From: willing at mb.sympatico.ca (Scott Willing) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:40 2004 Subject: Pictures !! In-Reply-To: <3C75BB43.3040605@cybershamanix.com> Message-ID: <3C759AFD.8119.DDDDB1@localhost> Harmon, I hadn't even noticed the message that actually inspired the protest, since it just happened to show up in my mailbox along with a bunch of other fairly large messages. Yeowch, no wonder there was a complaint. I don't know where the fable about there being any difference between attaching and enclosing arose from... maybe just the vague idea that "attachments are bad". As you pointed out, it's the same data going down the same pipe. To make matters worse, binary files -- basically anything but plain ASCII text, including images -- actually *increase* in size when sent as email. (If anyone really needs to know why, email me off-list. I won't take up further bandwidth with the details.) For a concrete example, those particular pictures total around 380kB sitting on a disk, but they get puffed up to around 480kB in order to be transmitted as email. We live and learn. I wasn't born knowing this stuff either. And when I was figuring it all out, a 1200 baud modem was considered pretty snappy hardware. :-) -smw Date sent: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 21:30:11 -0600 From: Harmon Seaver To: willing@mb.sympatico.ca Copies to: stoves@crest.org Subject: Re: Pictures !! > Yes, but that was last one was actually 480KB. Or so says my > browser. And I think there have been numerous requests on both stoves > and gas-l to have the list owner simply block all attachments. It would > be a very simple thing to do, and likewise a very simple thing to create > a place on the website to send the pictures to instead. Frankly, I have > a hard time understanding why, especially given the international often > 3rd world nature of this list, attachments are allowed at all. > And although I have a dsl line here, I have myself experienced > sitting in a hotel room trying to get my email over a long distance > telephone line, and totally being unable to download *any* of my mail > because someone sent a picture to a list I was on. It simply is a bad > idea. That's what websites are for. > > > Scott Willing wrote: > > > Steve, > > > > List members who posted the pictures took care to make them > > relatively small and invited comment specifically as to whether the > > size was a problem. They are clearly sensitive to the bandwidth > > issue. > > > > My connection is very slow by North American standards (28.8k at > > best) and the pictures weren't a problem for me. But I know what it > > is like when someone casually attaches a Word document of 500kB > > or more (!!) without a second thought. > > > > Sorry to hear that the pictures were a stress for you to receive. I'm > > afraid the only reasonable solution is to post pictures on a website > > somewhere and provide links, so that viewing is optional. > > > > -Scott Willing > > > > > > Date sent: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 09:18:58 +1100 > > To: stoves@crest.org > > From: "ATprojects Inc." > > Subject: Pictures !! > > > > > >>I live and work in Papua New Guinea where telephone connections are bad and > >>speeds are slow, over the past few weeks members have been posting pictures > >>as well as text .... maybe in the developed world this is useful but here > >>in PNG it takes "hours" to down load these pictures !! > >> > >>May be we could have a system where members could request pictures? > >> > >>I do not want to leave the list as its useful to our work here, but the > >>current system is not working for us ..... what do other people in the > >>developing world think? > >> > >>Regards > >> > >>Steve Layton > >> > > > > > > - > > Stoves List Archives and Website: > > http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ > > http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) > > http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) > > > > Stoves List Moderators: > > Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net > > Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net > > Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com > > > > List-Post: > > List-Help: > > List-Unsubscribe: > > List-Subscribe: > > > > Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html > > - > > Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: > > http://www.bioenergy2002.org > > http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy > > http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification > > http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon > > > > For information about CHAMBERS STOVES > > http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm > > > > > > > -- > Harmon Seaver > CyberShamanix > http://www.cybershamanix.com > - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon For information about CHAMBERS STOVES http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm From psanders at ilstu.edu Fri Feb 22 04:29:46 2002 From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:40 2004 Subject: Mea culpa!! So sorry!! Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20020222082751.01815690@mail.ilstu.edu> So it was my message that got too big with pictures. I am sooooooo sorry !!!!!! I will not do it again. I have the "speed of download" problem every time I go to Mozambique. My family even had a name for those big messages: "friend losers" (Now I am the guilty one. But please remain my friend.) I just hope that the Junto stove is not forgotten because of the discussion of picture size. Paul the Repentant Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00 Rotary University Teacher Grantee to Mozambique >10 mo of 2001-2003 Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310 E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon For information about CHAMBERS STOVES http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm From ronallarson at qwest.net Fri Feb 22 04:37:17 2002 From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:40 2004 Subject: Juntos Stove text message In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20020221162210.01839d00@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <005f01c1bbae$eb104460$ebe1e53f@computer> Paul:       Nice write-up.  I need more time to digest it all and better understand the new options you are suggesting.     I like the "shelf" arrangements - haven't seen anything like that before.     You may have the achieved the widest range of "turn-down" ratios (different fuel weight conversion (or kW) rates) - can you quantify what you are able to achieve in min and max kW?)     I am interested also in how you are controlling primary air flow with the horizontal pipes.   Their length looks longer than I might have expected - your reason?     More later - but thanks for giving such nice detail.   Ron
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul S. Anderson To: Bob and Karla Weldon ; Carol Torrens ; George Wolf ; Jared Kosoglad ; Apolinário J Malawene ; Bob and Karla Weldon ; Ed Francis ; Tsamba--Alberto Julio ; Lily Coyle ; stoves@crest.org ; margaret@newdawn.sz ; Sandra Broadrick-Allen Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2002 9:20 PM Subject: Juntos Stove text message Juntos (Together) stove -- Part 2 (text message)       Written 21/Feb/2002. From ronallarson at qwest.net Fri Feb 22 04:50:59 2002 From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:40 2004 Subject: The Mayon Turbo Stove In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20020219185036.01816a50@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <011d01c1bbb0$d4cc94e0$ebe1e53f@computer> Roger (cc stoves) Thanks for your very complete response. I continue to be impressed by what you have done. I downloaded the report to NREL - but have not had time to read it yet - but it is much larger and covers more topics than I had projected. Thanks to list member Ralph Overend for being part of this. The main question I want to get in the mix is whether you have made any attempt to control the primary air traveling through the rice hulls/sawdust? I am thinking of a thin metal partial cone that could be moved vertically (or two halves that could be moved horizontally) that might allow some turn-down. More later. Ron ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Ron Larson Cc: Paul S. Anderson ; ; ; ; Apolinário J Malawene ; Bob and Karla Weldon ; Ed Francis ; Tsamba--Alberto Julio ; Lily Coyle Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2002 11:41 AM Subject: Re: The Mayon Turbo Stove > > > Thanks for the feedback on the stove from Paul, Elk, and Ron. > - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon For information about CHAMBERS STOVES http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Fri Feb 22 05:23:21 2002 From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:40 2004 Subject: Pictures !! In-Reply-To: <3C759AFD.8119.DDDDB1@localhost> Message-ID: <3C766283.6040809@cybershamanix.com> Scott Willing wrote: > Harmon, > > I hadn't even noticed the message that actually inspired the protest, > since it just happened to show up in my mailbox along with a bunch > of other fairly large messages. Yeowch, no wonder there was a > complaint. > > I don't know where the fable about there being any difference > between attaching and enclosing arose from... maybe just the vague > idea that "attachments are bad". As you pointed out, it's the same > data going down the same pipe. > Right -- both the mail readers I use called them attachments. Heck, even heavily html'isized email is an "attachment". > To make matters worse, binary files -- basically anything but plain > ASCII text, including images -- actually *increase* in size when sent > as email. (If anyone really needs to know why, email me off-list. I > won't take up further bandwidth with the details.) Yes, if you look at the size of email you get, most will be 1K-3K, but just looking at my inbox, I see messages of 9K, 11K, and 13K -- no pictures, just html email. A bit absurd, really -- whats the point? The words are the same either way, but those html emails are often unreadable in the text mail reader I often use. And now we have html spam -- gag! Just another reason to use a text mail reader so you can delete the html stuff more rapidly. > > For a concrete example, those particular pictures total around > 380kB sitting on a disk, but they get puffed up to around 480kB in > order to be transmitted as email. > > We live and learn. I wasn't born knowing this stuff either. And when I > was figuring it all out, a 1200 baud modem was considered pretty > snappy hardware. :-) One of the problems with bad phone lines is that even a 56K modem turns into a 9600 or even 4400 on a long distance call, almost always. And I lived fairly recently in Mobile, AL, quite a large city, where even after repeated complaints to the phone company, the best I *ever* got with a 56K was 24K, and often I would have to redial the ISP several times to get more than 14400 or 19200. Trying to get email over a cellphone modem suffers likewise -- 4400 is about average. So have pity on those you're trying to communicate with, folks. After all, you are trying to *communicate*, right? Not antagonize or annoy the recipient with your fancy fonts and over large (or teeny-tiny) typefaces. This was made very clear to me some time ago when a prospective employer told me they couldn't read my email -- not good! -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon For information about CHAMBERS STOVES http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm From psanders at ilstu.edu Fri Feb 22 07:10:17 2002 From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:40 2004 Subject: Juntos Stove text message In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20020221162210.01839d00@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20020222101349.01825c40@mail.ilstu.edu> At 07:40 AM 2/22/02 -0700, Ron Larson wrote: Paul:       Nice write-up.  I need more time to digest it all and better understand the new options you are suggesting.     I like the "shelf" arrangements - haven't seen anything like that before. Nor have I.  All the heat seems to go so straight up through the levels that there is very little lateral loss of heat where there are spaces at the racks.  (I have started to call this a "heat column".)  And with some real manufacturing (not just tin cans in a shed), it would be possible to have the units slide in to more snug fittings, perhaps with half-circle collars to minimize lateral loss or impact of wind.     You may have the achieved the widest range of "turn-down" ratios (different fuel weight conversion (or kW) rates) - can you quantify what you are able to achieve in min and max kW?) I honestly do not have any clue about KW output.   But as some (I think it was Dean) have said, the fuel gives about the same heat whether burned fast or slow.   The real issue is how much of it can be effectively captured for useful purposes.  Therefore, another one of the intermediate or upper units could be the "haybox" (not made of hay or other combustible material) with an open or partially open bottom to let in additional but VERY low heat.  The haybox could be opened occasionally for stirring or checking by the cook.  It could even be removed from the "heat column" (I just made up that term, but it seems to represent what  the Juntos stove is all about).  Then the cook would close the haybox and have the option to  introduce additional heat from the bottom from a low-burning gasifier or from some embers of charcoal in another heat column of the stove complex.       I am interested also in how you are controlling primary air flow with the horizontal pipes.   Their length looks longer than I might have expected - your reason? Air pipes.  The ones shown are horizontal, but they could be angled or even vertical or coiled around the gasifier.  The air pipe serves as a handle.  The length of the air pipe allows the gasifier to be pushed further back into the stove chambers, even so far back that another gasifier could be place on the outer edge of the chamber.  I envision chambers with about 4 gasifiers of different sizes able to be turned on or off or moved into any of several places to initiate heat columns. Consider that the air pipe is well sealed where it enters the inner can (or more appropriately called the "inner chamber for primary combustion" or the "gasification cavity").  If the air pipe  is completely closed (I use sticky-back aluminum foil tape), there is no primary air from below the grate/fuel.  But on the air pipe there are various holes, including the outside end of the pipe that could be completely open to allow plenty of air to enter.  Regulate the number and size of the holes allowed to be open, and you have control of the primary air.  The control (increase or decrease of heat) is not instantaneous (allow 20 to 60 seconds for internal adjustment??), but neither is it instantaneous control on a electric stove or hot-plate, but is virtually instantaneous on a LPG or gas stove. Furthermore, the conveniently long air pipe allows me to stick the out-put end of a small bellows into the pipe and to pump in short blasts of extra air.  I have also done that by blowing with my mouth at the air pipe ("But I never inhaled." WJ Clinton said that before I did.).   By far the best idea on this "supplemental air" is to have a flexible hose from the air pipe to a place where a cook could easily grasp the other end of the hose and give a few puffs of air.  Also, the hose could be connected to a bellows or a blower for continual injection of more air.  Proof that the effort is worth it comes from Tom Reed's Turbo WoodGas stove with a battery operated blower. (additional comment below). Supplemental air will gasify the fuel faster, but also, after gasification is complete, will turn the charcoal remains into blazing embers!!!!   You can consume the charcoal in the lower unit, but here is the problem:  the blazing charcoal is like a forge.  It is VERY hot, and can seriously damage the gasifier.  Not only will burning the charcoal in the gasifier hasten the destruction of the tin can and the grate, but when I did it with an aluminum air pipe, just one event (a couple of minutes) literally consumed (melted, vaporized, etc) the inside end of the aluminum air pipe.  Not cool.  The solution is to make a cast-iron grate and internal walls (much like Crispin's "basket grate" but without holes, so it would be a "bucket grate") and have an iron air pipe.   But that dramatically changes the cost structure, becoming much more expensive (?) only because of a desire to consume the charcoal "in situ" after gasification of the biomass.   It is MUCH easier to simple remove the tincanium gasifer, dump the char into your preferred container, reload the gasifier, re-light it, and place it back into the base of the heat column. It is really easy to make a Juntos stove.  I plan on taking all the necessary tools to southern Africa with me in March so that I can try to make some stoves there. I sure hope that some readers of the Stoves list will say that they will try to make a Juntos Stove based on the descriptions I have given.   Then I would really be doing something Together (Juntos) with my fellow stovers.    Paul     More later - but thanks for giving such nice detail.   Ron Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D.,  Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00 Rotary University Teacher Grantee to Mozambique >10 mo of 2001-2003 Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University Normal, IL  61790-4400   Voice:  309-438-7360;  FAX:  309-438-5310 E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders From rmiranda at sdnnic.org.ni Fri Feb 22 08:24:31 2002 From: rmiranda at sdnnic.org.ni (Rogerio Miranda) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:40 2004 Subject: Pictures !! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20020222090935.00f25100@205.218.248.130> Yes, I agree, Pictures and long text files (unfortunately) should be send if requested, or send to a web page. I also have experienced long download, frustating. rogerio At 09:18 a.m. 22/02/02 +1100, ATprojects Inc. wrote: >I live and work in Papua New Guinea where telephone connections are bad and >speeds are slow, over the past few weeks members have been posting pictures >as well as text .... maybe in the developed world this is useful but here >in PNG it takes "hours" to down load these pictures !! > >May be we could have a system where members could request pictures? > >I do not want to leave the list as its useful to our work here, but the >current system is not working for us ..... what do other people in the >developing world think? > >Regards > >Steve Layton > > >The information contained in this email message is intended only for the >addressee. If you are not the intended recipient you must not use, >disclose, copy or distribute this message or the information in it. If you >have received this message in error, please email the sender immediately." >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- >ATprojects is based in Goroka, Eastern Highlands Province. We work with >both district and provincial governments, churches, rural communities and >other NGOs in the Eastern Highlands Province. Our aim is to enable rural >people to use appropriate technologies which give them more control over >their lives and which contribute to the sustainable development of their >communities. > >For more information on our work go to http://www.global.net.pg/atprojects > >This email may be confidential and/or privileged. Only the intended >recipient may access or use it. We use virus scanning software but exclude >all liability for viruses or similar in any attachment. >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----" > > > >- >Stoves List Archives and Website: >http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ >http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) >http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) > >Stoves List Moderators: >Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net >Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net >Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com > >List-Post: >List-Help: >List-Unsubscribe: >List-Subscribe: > >Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html >- >Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: >http://www.bioenergy2002.org >http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy >http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification >http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon > >For information about CHAMBERS STOVES >http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Rogério Carneiro de Miranda Director, Ecofogones y Reposición Forestal PROLEÑA/Nicaragua Apartado Postal C-321 Managua, Nicaragua TELEFAX (505) 249 0116 EMAIL: rmiranda@sdnnic.org.ni <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon For information about CHAMBERS STOVES http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm From RSamson at reap-canada.com Fri Feb 22 10:51:45 2002 From: RSamson at reap-canada.com (RSamson@reap-canada.com) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:40 2004 Subject: The Mayon Turbo Stove Message-ID: <3C76AFD9.D602265B@reap-canada.com> Hi Ron Your suggestion to have some ability to manipulate the air is a good one and may be important for optimizing use of alternative fuels and/or developing the stove's market potential. Our goal has been to try and make a stove that best meets the overall needs of the local people we are trying to assist, not one that is necessarily technologically the most advanced. Because of the high incidence of poverty in our area, our approach has been to work with our local shop teams to create a design that is as uncomplicated and inexpensive as possible (yet provides adequate convenience and economy) by emphasizing "Sophistication in Simplicity"....so the less the operator needs to adjust anything and the less material and gadgets to buy, break or lose that are in the design the more we like it! We have optimized the Mayon Turbo stoves air for use with rice hull and done limited assessment of alternative fuels with the new stove design, this needs further work. The biggest barrier to our program now is that our stove is still too expensive for many impoverished rural Filipino's to buy in the Western Visaya's. We are now working to make it smaller and cheaper to make it more accessible. It is already considered a technological leap forward by the peasants we are working to assist. It may be that some people would appreciate a better air control for manipulating the combustion quality and/or heat output when burning certain fuels or cooking certain foods. One possibility for controlling air in addition to your suggestions, would be to put metal sliders underneath the ash pan to control the size of the opening to the 1" diameter air pipes. Thanks again for your encouraging words and ideas. I hope you can successfully adapt or improve the stove so that it can meet the needs of your local market. Best regards Roger Ron wrote: Thanks for your very complete response. I continue to be impressed by what you have done. I downloaded the report to NREL - but have not had time to read it yet - but it is much larger and covers more topics than I had projected. Thanks to list member Ralph Overend for being part of this. The main question I want to get in the mix is whether you have made any attempt to control the primary air traveling through the rice hulls/sawdust? I am thinking of a thin metal partial cone that could be moved vertically (or two halves that could be moved horizontally) that might allow some turn-down. More later. Ron - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon For information about CHAMBERS STOVES http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm From atprojects at global.net.pg Fri Feb 22 12:10:33 2002 From: atprojects at global.net.pg (ATprojects Inc.) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:40 2004 Subject: ATprojects - The list Message-ID: My e-mail was not meant as a protest, but a call for some rules to be set for the list. Why rules? .... well a lot of the work being done hopefully will benefit people like ATprojects clients in the developing world and communications is a big part of this work. But if you really what to communicate to people like myself who lives in a developing country the list needs to understand our communication limitations. Otherwise you will lose us from the list. I also hope that the Junto stove will not be forgotten because of the discussion of picture size, but if possible end users unsubscribe because of these picture are we losing the point of the list! Why not have two simple rules ..... 1. Pictures go to the web site, and member can down load them if they want to. 2. Do not use the reply option (send you message, not other peoples again and again ........) Sorry about highlighting this problem, but here in PNG information is important. Steve Layton The information contained in this email message is intended only for the addressee. If you are not the intended recipient you must not use, disclose, copy or distribute this message or the information in it. If you have received this message in error, please email the sender immediately." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ATprojects is based in Goroka, Eastern Highlands Province. We work with both district and provincial governments, churches, rural communities and other NGOs in the Eastern Highlands Province. Our aim is to enable rural people to use appropriate technologies which give them more control over their lives and which contribute to the sustainable development of their communities. For more information on our work go to http://www.global.net.pg/atprojects This email may be confidential and/or privileged. Only the intended recipient may access or use it. We use virus scanning software but exclude all liability for viruses or similar in any attachment. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------e - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon For information about CHAMBERS STOVES http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm From ronallarson at qwest.net Sat Feb 23 05:10:05 2002 From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:40 2004 Subject: The Mayon Turbo Stove In-Reply-To: <3C76AFD9.D602265B@reap-canada.com> Message-ID: <007c01c1bc7c$ac8d6a00$52e0e53f@computer> Roger: I agree with your responses on air control - but think that users might find enough extra value in primary air control that it was a desirable "add-on extra". All a question of the benefit cost ratio. In our work on pyrolysis, top-lit, charcoal-making stoves, I find it extremely valuable. You also said yesterday: > > The biggest barrier to our program now is that our stove is still too > expensive for many impoverished rural Filipino's to buy in the Western > Visaya's. We are now working to make it smaller and cheaper to make it > more accessible. It is already considered a technological leap forward > by the peasants we are working to assist. > I wonder if you have tried this design using several pottery pieces? A refractory and insulator - and potentially quite cheap (but breakable). Your pot holder - stand design is probably going to have to remain steel. Ron - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon For information about CHAMBERS STOVES http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm From Carefreeland at aol.com Sat Feb 23 05:59:50 2002 From: Carefreeland at aol.com (Carefreeland@aol.com) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:40 2004 Subject: Juntos Stove text message Message-ID: Paul and stovers, This is some beautiful work here which we all can learn from. (provided we can open the pictures without the unfortunate difficulties some face) The concept of an experimental, modular set up, is a good way to test combinations of concepts. I have used this test method for years, and find that the simpler, more practical concepts just seem to precipitate from the mish mash. If we chart the performance of all of these combinations, the chart would show sweetspots at the best combinations. Then we just fine tune it again with more precise tweaking of the specifications. Artists for years have done this instinctively with repetition of experiments. This is how man has developed pottery, metalworking, painting, and all of the other less scientifically defined arts. NEW CONCEPT I like the concept of the side loading cartridge. Can this concept be applied to the elusive continually operating gasifier? What if the gasifier were made of heat retaining material, such as insulated cast iron, or dense firebrick containing ceramic? We could have two cartridges so one was ready and preloaded to put into the gasifing chamber when one was removed. A small afterburner of burning woodchips could relight the gas as soon as it started to form from the heat. That type of creative approach would never happen if Paul hadn't been piddling with a seemingly useless concept of a fire over a fire. The lesson here is that there is NO worthless experiment. History shows that the greatest discoveries are often made while looking for something else. I have played with the same concept refiring my King-O-Heat potbellied stove. I put tight twisted newspaper in the bottom ash pit which regasifies on the dwindling coals and then ignites the gas on the last burning embers above on the grate. This burning gas then in turn fires up the often damp wood later placed on the hot embers on the grate. If I just put the paper on the grate embers it would suffocate the little flame left. Especially when damp wood was put on top of it. If the wood is very damp I can add more newspaper twists from below, and cook the wood dry till it burns. The gas flame coming up through the damp wood helps combust the smoldering wet wood smoke with a little additional secondary air. Before long the stove is operating unattended till next reload with few emissions while recharging. All of this with damper wood than I prefer. Paul, I was feeding my son while checking my E-mail when I was surprised to see the powdered formula cans I gave you in your #2 stoves picture. I am getting smaller cans now, these measure 4 "x 4&1/2" you can have some of these since you made such good use of those ones. I see the high temp firebrick will be coming into use soon as well. Take care, Dan Dimiduk - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon For information about CHAMBERS STOVES http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm From crispin at newdawn.sz Sat Feb 23 11:34:42 2002 From: crispin at newdawn.sz (Crispin) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:40 2004 Subject: ATprojects - The list In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002a01c1bcb1$e3be0900$5ce80fc4@home> Dear Friends Steve wrote: ++++++++ Why not have two simple rules ..... 1. Pictures go to the web site, and member can down load them if they want to. 2. Do not use the reply option (send you message, not other peoples again and again ........) Sorry about highlighting this problem, but here in PNG information is important. Steve Layton ++++++++ I have to agree with this. I am getting two sets of pictures from Paul. I also know that in most academic lists one posts the entire thread again and again but this is inappropriate on an international list. I would like to keep some messages but not several copies of each one on my limited hard disk. Speed-wise I am OK but i have to dial in to a POP outside my call area which doubles the cost of my connection time beyond a local call. We pay for all time connected over phone company lines - a situation that does not prevail in N America. Don't want to complain but bandwidth is a problem. I am OK with 40K pics and under (as previously mentioned) and anything above that can go to a site for downloads. So I am raising a new issue: storage of useful information. I usually have to send it to myself stripped all the clutter of repeated (often fully) messages on the bottom. We could forward the useful or relevant parts only and that would be better. I have already accumulated about 200 messages averaging 20K since September. Using the archive is not an option because I have to stay connected to the phone lines to access it. Regards Crispin in Swaziland - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon For information about CHAMBERS STOVES http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm From tmiles at trmiles.com Sat Feb 23 17:24:26 2002 From: tmiles at trmiles.com (Tom Miles) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:40 2004 Subject: ATprojects - The list In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <010801c1bce2$e19650c0$94103b41@trmhp> Stovers, CREST policy has always been not to allow attachments to messages for the very reasons that have been stated in recent discussions. Occaisionally we have posted reminders to that effect. A few weeks ago Tom Reed included a reduced photo in a message of less than 40k, including the message, and others followed suite. We queried the list and there were comments that photos in a small message would be ok. Paul apparently didn't get the message about how to include small photos. Hence the troubles. We can go back to no attachements or we can set a message size and automagically bounce anything that's too large. You will find most of the photos that have been circulated between members on the Stoves web site at http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ I will add new photos, including Paul's latest, as people send them to me. CREST has promised a mechanism so that stovers can upload photos themselves. Meanwhile sedn your photos along and we'll see that they get posted. Thanks for your cooperation Tom Miles Bioenergy Lists Administrator Thomas R Miles TR Miles, Technical Consultants tmiles@trmiles.com 503-292-0107 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Crispin" To: "Stoves" Sent: Saturday, February 23, 2002 1:32 PM Subject: Re: ATprojects - The list > Dear Friends > > Steve wrote: > > ++++++++ > Why not have two simple rules ..... > > 1. Pictures go to the web site, and member can down load them if they want > to. > > 2. Do not use the reply option (send you message, not other peoples again > and again ........) > > Sorry about highlighting this problem, but here in PNG information is > important. > > Steve Layton > ++++++++ > > I have to agree with this. I am getting two sets of pictures from Paul. I > also know that in most academic lists one posts the entire thread again and > again but this is inappropriate on an international list. I would like to > keep some messages but not several copies of each one on my limited hard > disk. > > Speed-wise I am OK but i have to dial in to a POP outside my call area which > doubles the cost of my connection time beyond a local call. We pay for all > time connected over phone company lines - a situation that does not prevail > in N America. Don't want to complain but bandwidth is a problem. I am OK > with 40K pics and under (as previously mentioned) and anything above that > can go to a site for downloads. > > So I am raising a new issue: storage of useful information. I usually have > to send it to myself stripped all the clutter of repeated (often fully) > messages on the bottom. We could forward the useful or relevant parts only > and that would be better. I have already accumulated about 200 messages > averaging 20K since September. Using the archive is not an option because I > have to stay connected to the phone lines to access it. > > Regards > Crispin in Swaziland > > > > - > Stoves List Archives and Website: > http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ > http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) > http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) > > Stoves List Moderators: > Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net > Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net > Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com > > List-Post: > List-Help: > List-Unsubscribe: > List-Subscribe: > > Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html > - > Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: > http://www.bioenergy2002.org > http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy > http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification > http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon > > For information about CHAMBERS STOVES > http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm > - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon For information about CHAMBERS STOVES http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm From RSamson at reap-canada.com Mon Feb 25 08:02:00 2002 From: RSamson at reap-canada.com (RSamson@reap-canada.com) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:40 2004 Subject: The Mayon Turbo Stove Message-ID: <3C7A7C59.180DFB6@reap-canada.com> Ron We tried making the centrepiece from clay with some success on our older model though we never introduced it into communities. It doesn't have the same stability as the ring structure for holding pots. A clay centrepiece would reduce the stove cost by about 1/3rd compared to a metal centrepiece. If we went with the small Mayon Turbo 6000 model and a clay centrepiece we might be able to get the cost to $4-$4.50 per cooker. Next week I go to the Philippines and we plan to do a bit more development work on it while I am there. Likely it would be a good option for us to reduce our risks on loan repayments. Once people could afford it they could upgrade to a metal centrepiece if they so desired. It would be interesting if someone (like Dean Still) who has more experience than us with other materials used for stove fabrication could also try experimenting with insulative materials and incorporating them into the stove design. Roger Ron wrote: > I wonder if you have tried this design using several pottery pieces? A >refractory and insulator - and potentially quite cheap (but breakable). >Your pot holder - stand design is probably going to have to remain steel. Hi ron Yes we have tried making the centrepiece from clay with some success. On my trip to the Philippines next week I plan to test it Ron - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon For information about CHAMBERS STOVES http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm From tmiles at trmiles.com Mon Feb 25 17:14:09 2002 From: tmiles at trmiles.com (Tom Miles) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:40 2004 Subject: Stoves Web Update Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020225191337.021a9828@mail.teleport.com> Stovers, I've updated images on the stoves web page http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ New additions include Paul Anderson's February images and images from Peter Verhaart of his Jak stove. Tom Thomas R Miles tmiles@trmiles.com T R Miles, TCI Tel 503-292-0107 1470 SW Woodward Way Fax 503-292-2919 Portland, OR 97225 USA - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon For information about CHAMBERS STOVES http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm From dstill at epud.net Mon Feb 25 17:24:41 2002 From: dstill at epud.net (Dean Still) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:41 2004 Subject: The Mayon Turbo Stove Message-ID: <002d01c1be67$7c069680$0915210c@default> Dear Roger, Ken Goyer (Aprovecho ceramic researcher), Dr. Larry Winiarski and I will help out in any way that we can. Send us a stove and we'll get to work. (Aprovecho offers free testing and design work on stoves to all NGO's.) Aprovecho Research Center 80574 Hazelton Road Cottage Grove, Oregon 97424 541 942 8198 Best, Dean - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon For information about CHAMBERS STOVES http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm From psanders at ilstu.edu Mon Feb 25 18:18:10 2002 From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:41 2004 Subject: ATprojects - Greeings from PNG In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20020225221552.01818b50@mail.ilstu.edu> Steve and Stovers, Steve in PNG sent me a great message that I am sharing with the whole list. He describes his situation and I think that many of us could have some input to him. Steve, you have stimulated me to get my Juntos stove info into an Internet format soon. I will let you know when it is available. Apart from wood, you did not tell me what are the main biomass materials available for fuel. For the Juntos Stove, I am looking for "chips" or small pieces of biomass. I need to get some air flow from the bottom, so plain sawdust or tiny particles (rice hulls) probably would not breathe well enough. Need to experiment. But small twigs (broken to 2-3 cm lengths) should work fine, if reasonably dry. Meanwhile, let me say that I would like to work with you to see if the Juntos stove (or variations of it) could be part of your solution. Paul At 12:22 PM 2/26/02 +1100, ATprojects Inc. wrote: >Ref: ATp001637 > >Dear Paul > >Thank you for your emails of the 22nd and 23rd of February. First of all I >would like to access the pictures of the stove as I didn't get them the >first time around. > >As you will see from our web site, ATprojects is involved in a number of >rural base programs here in Papua New Guinea. We are currently considering >what our approach will be to our stove development programme and that is >one of the reasons why I have been so interested to monitor the stoves >mailing lists, it has proven very useful to us. > >As I am sure you are aware there are many people involved in this type of >research and development and I don't see it as being that useful that we >start our own research and development program, surely we should be able to >benefit for the work already being done by others. > >ATprojects actually operates from the Eastern Highlands Province of Papua >New Guinea, that is to say we are located in the Central Highlands of the >country and our climate is in fact rather cold and not very humid, which of >course is quite different to the coastal areas of Papua New Guinea. > >In terms of what fuel is in common used here, if we were to focus on the >rural areas of the Highlands then we wood would clearly be 95% of the fuel >used. Only a very few people who have access either to a regular income or >a reasonable level of cash cropping would have moved on to kerosene stoves. > > >The use of other fuels such as gas in the rural areas is pretty much non >existent. Even in the five or six major urban centres in the Highlands, >firewood is still a very common fuel, although more and more of the >slightly wealth here urban residence do use kerosene. > >There has been some efforts made by the local fuel companies to introduce >gas cookers, but really this is only having a small impact. > >Papua New Guinea has a long history of development projects that have tried >to introduce different types of stoves and fuel. Perhaps twenty years ago >there was a government sponsored project that was heavily backed by a >number of large international donors that tried to introduce charcoal. > >However, I think it would be fair to say that this was a complete failure. >The roots of this failure were grounded in the fact that the stoves were >not only expensive and beyond the reach of most potential users, but they >were inappropriately designed. Another problem was clearly that there was >no base for the supply of charcoal. Local businessmen did not see this as >a way of generating a good return on their investment and charcoal fuel >just was not available to the urban dweller. > >As I said earlier, ATprojects is very interested to look at stove design, >but we think that what ever stove is introduced in PNG it has to be >marketed to the end users and the problem here is that while Papua New >Guinea maybe potentially not a poor country this is not reflected in the >standard of living of most of our urban residence. > >The average urban wage here would be somewhere around US$700 - 800 per >annum per family and given the current massive devaluation of our local >currency it is unlikely that an average family would be able to invest any >more than say one tenth of this into purchasing an asset like a stove. > >In terms of rural families, this annual figure is much lower in fact we >have recently spent some considerable time working in one of the supposedly >richer coffee growing areas and we believe that from our discussions with >local families that their level of income per annum for a family is >something in the order of a US$150 per year. > >Obviously out of this they have to purchase things such as store food, >clothing and other traditional obligations. So they have little or nothing >to invest in stoves. In terms of non-store food, they are totally relying >on what they grow in their gardens and while firewood is not in abundance >it is at the moment and I stress at the moment still fairly readily >available. > >I would be very interested to discuss any stove design that you think may >be appropriate to our situation. If you feel you need more information >please feel free to contact me. > >Regards > > >Steve Layton. > >The information contained in this email message is intended only for the >addressee. If you are not the intended recipient you must not use, >disclose, copy or distribute this message or the information in it. If you >have received this message in error, please email the sender immediately." >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >ATprojects is based in Goroka, Eastern Highlands Province. We work with >both district and provincial governments, churches, rural communities and >other NGOs in the Eastern Highlands Province. Our aim is to enable rural >people to use appropriate technologies which give them more control over >their lives and which contribute to the sustainable development of their >communities. > >For more information on our work go to http://www.global.net.pg/atprojects > >This email may be confidential and/or privileged. Only the intended >recipient may access or use it. We use virus scanning software but exclude >all liability for viruses or similar in any attachment. >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------a Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00 Rotary University Teacher Grantee to Mozambique >10 mo of 2001-2003 Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310 E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon For information about CHAMBERS STOVES http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm From psanders at ilstu.edu Mon Feb 25 18:37:23 2002 From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:41 2004 Subject: Stoves Web Update In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020225191337.021a9828@mail.teleport.com> Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20020225224009.01829390@mail.ilstu.edu> Tom M., Thanks for putting the Juntos Stove pictures on the Internet. The lengthy TEXT message describing the stove is not there. Will you be putting that message onto the Internet site also? Paul At 07:14 PM 2/25/02 -0800, Tom Miles wrote: >Stovers, > >I've updated images on the stoves web page >http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ > >New additions include Paul Anderson's February images and images from >Peter Verhaart of his Jak stove. > >Tom > >Thomas R Miles tmiles@trmiles.com >T R Miles, TCI Tel 503-292-0107 >1470 SW Woodward Way Fax 503-292-2919 >Portland, OR 97225 USA Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00 Rotary University Teacher Grantee to Mozambique >10 mo of 2001-2003 Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310 E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon For information about CHAMBERS STOVES http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm From ronallarson at qwest.net Mon Feb 25 20:34:47 2002 From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:41 2004 Subject: The Mayon Turbo Stove In-Reply-To: <3C7A7C59.180DFB6@reap-canada.com> Message-ID: <005e01c1be90$294c0320$1ae66641@computer> Roger (cc Stoves): Today, you said: > Ron > > We tried making the centrepiece from clay with some success on our older > model though we never introduced it into communities. It doesn't have > the same stability as the ring structure for holding pots. (rwl): It might be possible to have local potters "weld" the inner and outer parts together. Then the rice hulls might flow through 3, 4, 5, 6... "ports" separated by the same number of "posts" that give the desired (1+ inch?) separation. This will give the desired stability - but probably increase the breakability a lot (both handling and differential thermal expansions). Only a few trials will tell. It seemed that your pot sat on a metal stand and that this stand was totally separate from the fuel holder and central combustion areas. True? It seems reasonable to keep that separation of materials and functions. Or, if all was metal, were they solidly connected to each other? >A clay > centrepiece would reduce the stove cost by about 1/3rd compared to a > metal centrepiece. If we went with the small Mayon Turbo 6000 model and > a clay centrepiece we might be able to get the cost to $4-$4.50 per > cooker. (RWL): Does this price include the stand - and if you can - could you separately price the stand alone? If the stand carries the weight of the pot, perhaps stability is not great an issue. > Next week I go to the Philippines and we plan to do a bit more > development work on it while I am there. Likely it would be a good > option for us to reduce our risks on loan repayments. Once people could > afford it they could upgrade to a metal centrepiece if they so desired. > It would be interesting if someone (like Dean Still) who has more > experience than us with other materials used for stove fabrication could > also try experimenting with insulative materials and incorporating them > into the stove design. > (RWL) The insulative property of the Apprevecho bricks was developed by mixing sawdust (rice husks?) with the clay. Maybe you can do your own tests - as your local clays will be different anyway from those tested by Dean and Ken Goyer. I think Ken was getting sawdust close to 50% by volume - but you may want and need a different mix. The aim is to get a good combination of porosity and strength. Guessing that pottery is pretty cheap there, you probably can learn a lot with a test protocol only costing a few hundred dollars. Wish you luck. Good luck on your trip. Ron - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon For information about CHAMBERS STOVES http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm From tmiles at trmiles.com Tue Feb 26 06:10:47 2002 From: tmiles at trmiles.com (Tom Miles) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:41 2004 Subject: Stoves Web Update In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020225191337.021a9828@mail.teleport.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020226080145.02939eb8@mail.easystreet.com> Paul, I lost you at the first turn! :-) If you click on your name it will take you to the list of your links where you'll find a new link for Juntos Stove Testing (February 2002). That link will take you to the page with pictures and text. I'll put a direct link on and next to the pictures. So there's a page with your January info and one for your February info. Now all it takes is for someone to take the time to go to the pages. Tom At 10:45 PM 2/25/2002 -0600, Paul S. Anderson wrote: >Tom M., > >Thanks for putting the Juntos Stove pictures on the Internet. The lengthy >TEXT message describing the stove is not there. Will you be putting that >message onto the Internet site also? > >Paul > >At 07:14 PM 2/25/02 -0800, Tom Miles wrote: >>Stovers, >> >>I've updated images on the stoves web page >>http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ >> >>New additions include Paul Anderson's February images and images from >>Peter Verhaart of his Jak stove. >> >>Tom >> >>Thomas R Miles tmiles@trmiles.com >>T R Miles, TCI Tel 503-292-0107 >>1470 SW Woodward Way Fax 503-292-2919 >>Portland, OR 97225 USA > >Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00 >Rotary University Teacher Grantee to Mozambique >10 mo of 2001-2003 >Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University >Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310 >E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders Thomas R Miles tmiles@trmiles.com T R Miles, TCI Tel 503-292-0107 1470 SW Woodward Way Fax 503-292-2919 Portland, OR 97225 USA - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon For information about CHAMBERS STOVES http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm From adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in Tue Feb 26 14:27:16 2002 From: adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in (A.D. Karve) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:41 2004 Subject: stoves for Papua New Guinea Message-ID: <000301c1bf28$e0c6b340$e99ec7cb@adkarvepn2.vsnl.net.in> This message is for Steve layton, in response to his message addressed to Paul Anderson.  In case he is not a member of the stoves list, I request Paul to forward the message to him.   Almost 70% of the families in India use biomass burning cookstoves.  The models developed by us  are made of unburnt clay, and they are very cheap.  Some of them cost even less than  US$1. They are made with the help of a mould, which ensures that the dimensions of the stove do not change. A.D.Karve    From ronallarson at qwest.net Wed Feb 27 09:17:57 2002 From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:41 2004 Subject: Shell Foundation funding opportunity Message-ID: <002a01c1bfc3$98ea3ba0$02e2e53f@computer> Stovers:       The following could/should be of interest to many on this list.  Below the forwarded material is a second downloaded section from the RFP instructions - which indicates the type of material they are looking for.       Please contact me (or I think many others on this list) if I/we might be able to help proposers in some way.  I might be loosely attached to another proposal or two - but will not submit one of my own and promise to try to help all equally.  The emphasis is clearly (and should be) on the "south" - and sustainability - and I am sure many on the list want to try to help.  One way could be to help find partnerships that involve volunteer assistance from the "north".  More after the copied ">" material.       -----Original Message-----From: SEP, SI-PXR To: 'rfp@shellfoundation.org' <rfp@shellfoundation.org>Date: Wednesday, February 27, 2002 8:09 AMSubject: Shell Foundation - Request for Proposals - Now Open>>The Shell Foundation>Sustainable Energy Programme>Request for Proposals - Relating to Modern Energy Services and Household>Energy & Health - Now Open!!>>PLEASE VISIT -  http://www.shellfoundation.org/rfp for further information.>>All proposals should be sent to SEP@si.shell.com by April 25th 2002 at the>latest - please read the "notes to applicants" section before completingthe>Concept Proposal Form.     (RWL):  (The above Proposal Form is about 5 pages long - not bad.)    The following is the part of the Shell web site that I found most interesting   "Under the HEH theme, the Shell Foundation is interested in funding projects that emphasise one or more of the following: Improved health outcomes for households (with specific targeting on vulnerable groups and communities) Innovative solutions to household energy problems using local materials and skills Low cost, mass production of improved energy devices Innovative micro-finance schemes (eg consumer credit) Removal of policy barriers to extending access to improved energy services Replication through commercialisation or scaling up through national or international programmes Financial sustainability Promotion of small and micro-enterprise Local ownership. Based on these factors, the Shell Foundation would like to encourage NGOs (particularly southern based), community based-organisations, small or micro-enterprises and other southern-based institutions to submit Concept Proposal Forms under the Household Energy and Health theme. The maximum budget for each project will be $300,000 over a period of three years." (RWL):  Good luck to all proposers!         From Tami.Bond at noaa.gov Thu Feb 28 00:05:51 2002 From: Tami.Bond at noaa.gov (Tami Bond) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:41 2004 Subject: CO sensors again Message-ID: <6a5d36dc2c.6dc2c6a5d3@pmel.noaa.gov> Dear Stovers, I am going to pilot using a CO sensor made by CITY Technology in the U.K. in my measurements, starting next week. The sensor reads 0-2000 ppm with a resolution of 0.5 ppm. It puts out an analog voltage of 1 mV per ppm. As Tom Reed mentioned a while ago, these electrochemical sensors have cross-sensitivities to other gases. This one appears to have a fairly high sensitivity to ethylene which can be emitted from biofuel combustion. What to do about this? Any cheap sensor seems to be electrochemical, so is there a way to get around the cross-sens problem? I don't have a way to measure ethylene-- obviously, since I'm still working on CO. Tami - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon For information about CHAMBERS STOVES http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm From Tami.Bond at noaa.gov Thu Feb 28 00:13:25 2002 From: Tami.Bond at noaa.gov (Tami Bond) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:41 2004 Subject: Cooking with Coal-- AJH? Crispin? John Davies? Message-ID: <6cda568f24.68f246cda5@pmel.noaa.gov> Stovers & Especially Coalers, I have been playing with coal burning again. Can somebody tell me why anybody would cook with this stuff?! I had previously burned high-volatile (like 40% vol) bituminous. That catches and stays lit pretty well. Now that I am trying some lower-vol coal (at least I think that is the problem) it is hard to get the coal to support combustion. What's the trick? I *could* put the coal in a huge pile and/or start it with lots of wood. Sure, that works. But I can't imagine anyone cooking that way. If you have to use so much wood to get it lit, you might as well cook with the wood. If you have to use so much coal to keep the combustion going, again, one might think people would choose something else. I can see heating with coal, where you ignite once and just keep feeding the fire once it is hot. Starting a coal fire for every meal, though, seems very inefficient. Sooo... I must be doing something wrong. What am I missing? thanks, Tami - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon For information about CHAMBERS STOVES http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm From Carefreeland at aol.com Thu Feb 28 01:27:07 2002 From: Carefreeland at aol.com (Carefreeland@aol.com) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:41 2004 Subject: Cooking with Coal-- AJH? Crispin? John Davies? Message-ID: <18d.4114f3f.29af6e1b@aol.com> Dear Tami, Low volatile rock coal behaves a lot like blacksmiths coke. You need a lot of directed air once you get it started. It will retain more heat than char since it is a rock, so little chance of blowing it out. There is little disturbance of the air with a smoldering coal, and a lot of heat sink into the cold coal. There needs to be a lot of micro turbulence to keep it combusting hot at first. Try lighting the coal with some charcoal, and blowing through a drinking straw to fan it. Just breath normally but slowly or you will get lightheaded, don't inhale through the straw. If you have a larger amount of coal, the natural convection creates this turbulence for you. I have the same problem with some of the retort char I have made, even though it has higher volatile. What type of stove are you burning this in? Once enough coal has ignited well and heated up, it will continue to burn and is hard to extinguish. I suggest using a stove with a tall chimney, good directed and controlled draft air. I suppose people cook with coal for the same reason they do anything, because it is what they have to work with. Good luck, Daniel Dimiduk - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon For information about CHAMBERS STOVES http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm From andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com Thu Feb 28 01:33:09 2002 From: andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com (AJH) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:41 2004 Subject: Cooking with Coal-- AJH? Crispin? John Davies? In-Reply-To: <6cda568f24.68f246cda5@pmel.noaa.gov> Message-ID: On Thu, 28 Feb 2002 02:14:12 -0800, Tami Bond wrote: > >Stovers & Especially Coalers, > >I have been playing with coal burning again. Can somebody tell me why >anybody would cook with this stuff?! Probably because they cannot afford anything better. > >I had previously burned high-volatile (like 40% vol) bituminous. That >catches and stays lit pretty well. Now that I am trying some lower-vol >coal (at least I think that is the problem) it is hard to get the coal >to support combustion. What's the trick? Probably to do with size, you need to get the carbon up to its ignition temperature, at the same time a large lump has a lot of thermal mass and conducts heat away quite quickly. If volatiles are present then these are produced and can burn. Wood is a decent insulator so its surface reaches pyrolysis temperatures quite quickly. If there is a flame present volatiles catch light and then feedback more heat into the mass. If the fire only smoulders then there is no ignition source for the offgas and it vents unburnt, contributing no heat. With good coal, anthracite, it is nearly all carbon, once lit it will glow, to create a flame you need to pump air through it to increase the fire bed and cause CO to be formed, this then produces the characteristic blue CO->CO2 flame. > >I *could* put the coal in a huge pile and/or start it with lots of >wood. Sure, that works. But I can't imagine anyone cooking that way. If >you have to use so much wood to get it lit, you might as well cook with >the wood. If you have to use so much coal to keep the combustion going, >again, one might think people would choose something else. I can see >heating with coal, where you ignite once and just keep feeding the fire >once it is hot. Starting a coal fire for every meal, though, seems very >inefficient. From ronallarson at qwest.net Thu Feb 28 04:17:13 2002 From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:41 2004 Subject: Cooking with Coal-- AJH? Crispin? John Davies? In-Reply-To: <6cda568f24.68f246cda5@pmel.noaa.gov> Message-ID: <001401c1c063$19353fe0$7ce2e53f@computer> Tami: You said today: > > I had previously burned high-volatile (like 40% vol) bituminous. That > catches and stays lit pretty well. Now that I am trying some lower-vol > coal (at least I think that is the problem) it is hard to get the coal > to support combustion. What's the trick? > > I *could* put the coal in a huge pile and/or start it with lots of > wood. Sure, that works. (RWL): I believe that much of your previous work was with "holey" briquettes - whereas this seems to be lump coal. If true, I owner if you can go back to a "holey" design. Speaking as a total novice with coal (watched Andrew once), I like the responses of Andrew and Dan who mention reflectivity - which is much like having "holiness". I think the trick must be getting the chemical heat release per unit area (largely done with increased air) plus radiative feedback (either reflection [with lumps] or "holey design to exceed the heat loss inward. - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon For information about CHAMBERS STOVES http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm From ronallarson at qwest.net Thu Feb 28 04:28:28 2002 From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:41 2004 Subject: Fw: Cooking with Coal-- AJH? Crispin? John Davies? Message-ID: <002101c1c064$abb960c0$7ce2e53f@computer> Stovers: Forgot I was composing on-line and a mis-step sent my last message off too soon. Please change "owner" to "wonder". I was going to add a closing sentence saying that we need to make lump geometry look as much like the "hole" geometry as possible - about which Tami is one of our best experts. This happens naturally with the top-down charcoal making stoves, when the wood "branches" are stacked in vertically. Harder to do with coal lumps, but I guess Tami needs something similar - a tall (better draft) reflective can with small lumps. Sort of what Dan and Andrew said, but introducing the word "holey". Sorry for my sloppy handling of "Outlook Express". Ron ----- Original Message ----- From: Ron Larson To: Tami Bond ; Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 7:20 AM Subject: Re: Cooking with Coal-- AJH? Crispin? John Davies? > Tami: > - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon For information about CHAMBERS STOVES http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm From jmdavies at xsinet.co.za Thu Feb 28 07:07:36 2002 From: jmdavies at xsinet.co.za (John Davies) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:41 2004 Subject: Cooking with Coal-- AJH? Crispin? John Davies? In-Reply-To: <6cda568f24.68f246cda5@pmel.noaa.gov> Message-ID: <00bd01c1c07b$26e46fe0$b06b27c4@jmdavies> Hi Tami, I live on the Highveld ( altitude 5000 ft. ) in South Africa. We are sitting directly on top of a massive coal field. The winters are sub zero ( -8 C ) at night during winter which coincides with a long dry period. Trees do not grow naturally in this area and take a great deal of pampering to become established. So growing trees for fuel is out. The nearest source of cheap firewood being typically 200miles away. The poorest of the poor living in informal setlements are reliant on low grade butuminous coal to cook, and to heat their dwellings. This is typically done by burning the coal in a 20 li tin. The "Baula" as previously discussed. These are lit out of doors producing clouds of acrid dense smoke. which causes heavy polution of the area. The nights are typically windless in winter. Once the coal is reduced to red hot coke and the smoke and fumes have abated, it is carried into the house. where it is used for heating and cooking. The higher volitile content coal is preferred as it takes very little "expensive " wood to light. The government has also declared war on those trees which grow best in the prevailing climate. They have been classified as invader species, although they do not stand a chance of becoming a problem in these areas. All trees in the immediate vicinity have been harvested for building material and fuel. The great pity is that apart from creating terrible pollution, all the heat from the volatiles is wasted. This could account for as much as 40 % of the potential being wasted. My aim is to try and modify the traditional burning methods in such a manner to eliminate the smoke and utilise the wasted heat. I have done some tests with top lighting, gasifying, the coal in a tin with a burner above. with promising results this heat could be used for outside heating of water. for bathing etc before the coke fire is carried into the house. An alternative is to have it in the house from the start, with a simple chimney. Much work is still to be done. Of course minimum cost is a must. Tincanium protected by clay insulation would appear to offer the cheapest solution. There are also several informal stove makers in these settlements, using whatever scrap steel is at hand. An ideal opportunity exists to introduce clean combustion into their stoves, which are just as polluting as the open fire option, but a little less wasteful with heat. Regards, John Davies. ----- Original Message ----- From: Tami Bond To: Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 12:14 PM Subject: Cooking with Coal-- AJH? Crispin? John Davies? > > Stovers & Especially Coalers, > > I have been playing with coal burning again. Can somebody tell me why > anybody would cook with this stuff?! > > I had previously burned high-volatile (like 40% vol) bituminous. That > catches and stays lit pretty well. Now that I am trying some lower-vol > coal (at least I think that is the problem) it is hard to get the coal > to support combustion. What's the trick? > - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon For information about CHAMBERS STOVES http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm From tami.bond at noaa.gov Thu Feb 28 08:39:40 2002 From: tami.bond at noaa.gov (Tami Bond) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:41 2004 Subject: Coal cooking summary In-Reply-To: <6cda568f24.68f246cda5@pmel.noaa.gov> Message-ID: <3C7E7970.87D60526@noaa.gov> Dear Stovers, Thanks everyone for your quick responses. I summarize what I have heard from you: 1. Low-vol coal needs forced draft to burn (Dan, Andrew) 2. Smaller size could help, use smaller chunks (Andrew) [I agree with what you said about heat conduction impeding ignition-- you can see the heat traveling away-- this is problem with starting coal briquettes too.] 3. Try holey configuration (Ron) [I agree with this too-- you have to make a cavity to keep radiation heat losses from sucking all the heat out-- I find this easier with wood than with coal.] 4. People light coal, prefer hi-volatile [Me too!], bring it into house after volatiles are extinguished and cook over the coke. (John) (Note-- if I get my own lab setup someday, I would love to test your improved coal stove) This all makes TOTAL sense, but NONE of it changes the fact that I have some coal that is used for cooking in Yunnan province, and it is typically lit by putting on top of a wood fire. These people (1) do not have fans; (2) I have tried it with fairly small (walnut sized) chunks; (3) have done radiation cavities as best I can. I am burning this in a simulated firepit which is how they do. I have lined it with ashes, but no insulation other than that; I did a trial with firebrick around the outside of the pile to avoid heat loss, but it didn't seem to help much. So far I haven't used more than 0.6 kg of coal per test, figuring that you can finish the water boiling test with ~0.6 kg of wood, and coal has a higher heating value. Nor have I used more than 0.3 kg of wood to try and start the coal, again thinking that if you were going to use 0.5 kg of wood as kindling, you might as well cook over it and forget the coal. Now if I used a bigger pile of coal, the surface-to-volume ratio of the pile would be smaller, so there would be less heat loss. But this means that people are probably using more coal than we think they are (or cooking fewer times per day). John, how much coal do people typically burn for a meal? And what do they do if they cannot get the high-volatile stuff? Still puzzled Tami - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon For information about CHAMBERS STOVES http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm From psanders at ilstu.edu Thu Feb 28 09:53:45 2002 From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:41 2004 Subject: Cooking with Coal-- AJH? Crispin? John Davies? In-Reply-To: <6cda568f24.68f246cda5@pmel.noaa.gov> Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20020228133706.01b83cc0@mail.ilstu.edu> Tami, Just a hunch, but I think that the "stackable" or "heat column" aspects of the Juntos stove might be of use to you for coal burning. At very low cost, the lower (gasifier) unit will produce heat and flame the will all go upwards to some configuration of coal (chunks, holes, etc.) of different qualities. The coal should start getting hot (absorb whatever of the heat from below that it can capture) and in theory should eventually start to burn. The gases that come from the coal should rise in the heat column and (we hope) will be ignited with the heat/flame from the gasifier. Once the coal is burning, the gasifier can be turned down to "low" or maybe even turned off, but it sounds like for coal to burn in "smallish amounts" it might need additional heat added continually. This is from a novice, so perhaps someone can explain why it would not work. But (if and) when I have time I will place coal into the "intermediate fuel unit" above a gasifier and see what happens. If anyone can get to that stage before I do, go for it and please let us know what happens. Illinois sits on coal fields, but I have not seen any available to purchase in years (but I have not been looking either.) Paul At 02:14 AM 2/28/02 -0800, Tami Bond wrote: >Stovers & Especially Coalers, > >I have been playing with coal burning again. Can somebody tell me why >anybody would cook with this stuff?! Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00 Rotary University Teacher Grantee to Mozambique >10 mo of 2001-2003 Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310 E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon For information about CHAMBERS STOVES http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm From ronallarson at qwest.net Thu Feb 28 12:29:24 2002 From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:41 2004 Subject: Coal cooking summary In-Reply-To: <6cda568f24.68f246cda5@pmel.noaa.gov> Message-ID: <025701c1c0a7$9fa5d000$54ab6441@computer> Tami - today you said in part: > This all makes TOTAL sense, but NONE of it changes the fact that I have > some coal that is used for cooking in Yunnan province, and it is > typically lit by putting on top of a wood fire. These people (1) do not > have fans; (RWL): I have been impressed in several places with the use of "fans" (not electric - but hand-powered) to control the power output from charcoal fires. My guess is that the power (or fuel consumption rate) output might be tripled over natural convection. This is something we would avoid - but I guess is quite common place. >(2) I have tried it with fairly small (walnut sized) chunks; (RWL): Not expert - but think starting might be easier if even smaller. > (3) have done radiation cavities as best I can. I am burning this in a > simulated firepit which is how they do. I have lined it with ashes, but > no insulation other than that; I did a trial with firebrick around the > outside of the pile to avoid heat loss, but it didn't seem to help much. > (RWL): Paul Hait has been vocal in the past on the importance of reflection - and he uses stainless, which is not presumably used in Yunnan province. But one can get much of the same effect with outer linings that are as white as possible. The reflection property may be as important as the insulative value (including from ash). I need to repeat the value of height in the surroundings. Might you increase the depth of the pit? Wish we could be of more help. Best of luck. Ron - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon For information about CHAMBERS STOVES http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm From andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com Thu Feb 28 13:20:24 2002 From: andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com (AJH) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:41 2004 Subject: Coal cooking summary In-Reply-To: <6cda568f24.68f246cda5@pmel.noaa.gov> Message-ID: <679t7ucv833i6bpp33uou4s3dotkpohush@4ax.com> On Thu, 28 Feb 2002 10:39:44 -0800, Tami Bond wrote: >Dear Stovers, > >Thanks everyone for your quick responses. > >I summarize what I have heard from you: > >1. Low-vol coal needs forced draft to burn (Dan, Andrew) Not quite, it obviously will burn under natural draft, however if you achieve a high air velocity (which may be done with a chimney) the coal will become a glowing mass and produce CO which then burns with a blue flame. In lesser air flows the carbon is all converted to CO2 in the coke bed. Any volatiles being released from fresh coal will not then readily flare. >3. Try holey configuration (Ron) [I agree with this too-- you have to >make a cavity to keep radiation heat losses from sucking all the heat >out-- I find this easier with wood than with coal.] Radiation is very important in igniting char. I have just made some high volatiles char in order to demonstrate clean flaring for a project that I had hoped to scale up. I have been seeing how far from a glowing char bed it will light, it looks like about 50mm whilst in the primary airflow. >4. People light coal, prefer hi-volatile [Me too!], bring it into house >after volatiles are extinguished and cook over the coke. (John) (Note-- >if I get my own lab setup someday, I would love to test your improved >coal stove) I had posted some queries on this when the subject was last aired. I would like to see if we can look at them again, if I can find the message. There seems little reason to favour hi-volatile coal for easy lighting if the volatiles are uncleanly flared to waste. Even taking the glowing coke into the dwelling seems risky to health. Anyway it looks like the cooks have little choice in the coal they use. I think we should concentrate on clean burning from start up and cooking on a system which vents the flue via a chimney. The heat all stays in the dwelling, combustion product and contaminants in the coal going outside at an acceptable level for other households. As I said at the time there appears more scope for an engineering solution here than with woodstoves. One day I will have a bit of time and money to pursue this. > >This all makes TOTAL sense, but NONE of it changes the fact that I have >some coal that is used for cooking in Yunnan province, and it is >typically lit by putting on top of a wood fire. These people (1) do not >have fans; (2) I have tried it with fairly small (walnut sized) chunks; Walnut sized is much bigger than I used, my "house" coal was in ~2kg lumps, I broke it into flakes no bigger than my finger up to the first joint, this produced smaller shards also, which I used. Did you see the fires started in Yunnan? It was the practice in this country to keep embers going over night, the cry "curfew" was derived from "couvre feu" which meant protect your embers and turn in. On sacking village where the inhabitants had fled having the cooking fires extinguished by urination as a "punishment" suggest staring fires was not as easy as survival programs may suggest. AJH -- - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon For information about CHAMBERS STOVES http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm From Carefreeland at aol.com Thu Feb 28 18:05:54 2002 From: Carefreeland at aol.com (Carefreeland@aol.com) Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:41 2004 Subject: Coal cooking summary Message-ID: <103.1170671d.29b05832@aol.com> Tami, Stovers, We are all more familiar with wood and charcoal. We now want to apply our skills to coal to improve the combustion. Let's look at the primary differences between charcoal and rock coal. 1. Rock coal has more ash, similar to a briquette with clay binder. 2. Rock coal has higher density, more like the ceramic stove than the ticanium stove. 3. Rock coal has almost zero porosity unless chipped or powdered. 4. Rock coal can be high or low volatility, but generally is lower in volatile than wood or char. The first feature gives more heat retention as the resulting ash insulates the burning embers much more quickly. This also enables reflection back into the burning coal. The higher density holds more heat once properly warmed. Higher density acts like a heat sink while trying to ignite, requiring more initial heat. Lower porosity allows less surface area which slows the burning rate without sufficient movement of oxygen. The higher heat retention characteristics somewhat offset this in open burning. This is because of the higher resulting internal temperatures producing CO instead of CO2. The CO is then emitted and burned as more oxygen becomes available away from the ember. The more volatile rock coal has, the more hydrocarbon gas emitted at a lower temperature. This gas can be useful or not just like the gas from wood. The exception is that rock coal produces sulfur compounds, nitrogen compounds and heavy metal oxides. For this reason I also recommend outside ventilation of flue gasses. The Chinese undoubtedly have used some sort of bellows or even blowpipes just to establish their pit fires. The lack of air circulation would probably kill the flames from CO2 suffocation without extra oxygen. A sizable fire built from wood would also give sufficient air circulation. Since early man, bellows of all sorts have been used. Some made of skins, some just blowpipes to enhance the lungs. By directing the air into the coals, less starting fuel can be used. There are two kinds of reflectivity spoken of here. 1. Direct reflectivity, where the infrared and visible light are reflected off of a shiny surface. 2. Secondary reflectivity. This is where the radiation from combustion of fuel heats a surface such as the inside of a stove. This surface then reradiates the infrared light waves back to the fuel. The heat retention is required to steady the intermittent pulses of combustion. With the rock coal, the combustion tends to be self contained once started. The problem is the lack of initial combustion heat to sufficiently raise the temperature of the entire grain of coal. If powdered coal is used it helps, but still does not match the porosity of wood char or the volatile content of wood. Anyway you look at it you need more air. Direct reflectivity would help, but how do you keep a white or polished surface? High temp firebrick has a high alumna content keeping it's walls white during combustion. Thin cast iron seems to be a compromise. 1. It heats quickly enough not to conduct too much heat away from the starting fire. 2. It retains enough heat to be secondary reflective. 3. It insulates enough not to draw heat away from the beginning fire. 4. It can be thin and still not burn through unlike any other material known to man. I return to the thought that we threw away the perfect material for combustion stoves when we forgot how to make certain types of iron materials. Every time I start my potbellied stove I am reminded of this. My stove has both of the iron and brick materials and was made very long ago. In our stoves today, the secret is all in the grate. It is the only high carbon silicon iron (wrought iron) used in combustion. Rock coal was the common term until 1900. The "rock" name was dropped after charcoal was almost made obsolete. That was back when the "Collier" was the most important person around. He was the skilled tradesman who made your coal for you. The best stoves I have known for coal burning, had the these same features. Secondary air is not as important for coal once up to temperature because the burning temp is hot enough to completely combust everything. This is provided enough primary air is present. Draft is far more important. Dan Dimiduk - Stoves List Archives and Website: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/ http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction) http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original) Stoves List Moderators: Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html - Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information: http://www.bioenergy2002.org http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon For information about CHAMBERS STOVES http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm