November 2002 Gasification Archive

For more information to help people develop better stoves for cooking with biomass fuels in developing regions, please see our web site: http://www.bioenergylists.org

From Anonymous Tue Nov 26 17:30:31 2002
From: Anonymous (Anonymous)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:46 2004
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <a6e5fa83bc4f47de27b59a79750fdfe3@NO-ID-FOUND.mhonarc.org>

Regards,

Thomas

John Flottvik wrote:

> This file: "Unknown0538.data" was infected with: "WScript.KakWorm.dr"
> virus. The file was deleted by Norton AntiVirus. Thursday, February
> 08, 2001 17:37

From Anonymous Tue Nov 26 17:30:41 2002
From: Anonymous (Anonymous)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:54 2004
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <be4c7fe781c31c098975627613d3c60a@NO-ID-FOUND.mhonarc.org>

So, I hope densification in all its forms is here to stay and will make biom=
ass in all its forms into a very competitive fuel.=20

Onward to a sustainable fuel era...

TOM REED

Dr. Thomas Reed
The Biomass Energy Foundation
1810 Smith Rd., Golden, CO 80401
303 278 0558; tombreed@home.com

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The Future=20
of Fuel

Pellet heat takes a=20
bold leap forward.=20

. . . . . . . . .=20

By Matt Scanlon=20

=20
As the woodstove industry rides the last wave of Y2K hysteria into a l=
and of record sales, manufacturers have already begun bracing themselves for=
the buying falloff that will inevitably come after we, and they, wake on Ja=
nuary 1 to find the same world we left the evening before. While mindful of=20=
the fact that a burning fire will remain an irreplaceable source of comfort=20=
and aesthetic beauty to homeowners, manufacturers can't avoid the fact that=20=
millions of even clean-burning EPA woodstoves bought and used in the next ce=
ntury will stress cordwood availability and air quality to an extent that wi=
ll, ultimately, make wood heat an economic anachronism.=20
More and more, the answer seems to reside in the form of tiny wood pel=
lets. Mother has featured pellet stoves since the first North American pelle=
t plant opened in Brownsville, Oregon, nearly 30 years ago, but the newest g=
eneration of pellet appliances makes our first home-built models seem someth=
ing less than quaint by comparison.=20

Made from sawdust and wood chips (waste materials from furniture makin=
g and other wood manufacturing processes), pellets are simply trees saved fr=
om the landfill. At an average price of $150 a ton, a $450 yearly investment=
in pellets will heat the average North American home. This places pellet he=
at, on a value-per-dollar scale, just slightly behind black gold (given curr=
ent oil prices), substantially ahead of electric heat and increasingly on pa=
r with natural gas. Moreover, pellet fuel has not ridden the wave of market=20=
fluctuation the way oil and natural gas have. In 1990, a 40-pound bag of pel=
lets cost $3, and we found the same price today at retail stores. Typically,=
pellet costs have not even kept pace with inflation, which actually means t=
hat your $3 bag is a much better buy now than it was ten years ago.

Apart from the environmental advantage of fewer wasted trees, pellets=20=
have an ash content low enough to make them burn up to 12 times more cleanly=
than the most efficient EPA-certified cordwood stoves. Furthermore, pellet=20=
stoves emit fewer allergens into the home, are automated to burn for excepti=
onally long periods of time, are thermostatically controllable (unlike most=20=
cordwood stoves), and keep your clothes and floors clear of the dirt tracked=
in from a trip to the woodpile.=20

The price of all this convenience is, however, seen in your monthly el=
ectricity bill. Nearly all the 600,000 pellet stoves operating in North Amer=
ica require current to run the heat fans and pellet feeders. This would repr=
esent only a conditional annoyance were it not for the fact that just over 5=
0% of pellet stove owners use the appliance as their primary source of heat.=
Throw in an ice storm of the kind that left huge portions of Vermont, New H=
ampshire and southeastern Canada without power last winter and you have invi=
ted a potentially home-abandoning situation. As a result, the pellet stove i=
ndustry has not seen anything like the robust, Y2K-fear-driven conventional=20=
woodstove sales. "Eighty percent of the people who look at a pellet stove ar=
e worried about its grid dependency," reports Mark Drisdelle of Dell Point T=
echnologies Inc., a pellet stove manufacturer out of Montreal, Canada. "They=
are more than a little hesitant to make a $2,000 investment in a primary so=
urce of heat if it isn't flexible enough to function without the grid if nec=
essary."=20

This year marked the first industry-wide acknowledgement of that fact,=
resulting in seven new designs which we examined at the Hearth Products Exp=
o in Phoenix (of all places!). Innovations in burn cleanliness and major str=
ides toward grid-independence were shocking to those of us who were accustom=
ed to a glacial pace in woodstove development. "We haven't seen this level o=
f product roll-out in years," offered Averill Cook, president of the Pellet=20=
Fuels Institute. "We're thrilled that manufacturers are responding."

The most innovative model we examined was Dell's DC 2000. Though at fi=
rst struck dumb by the unit's price tag of $2,495, we softened a bit when we=
found that an overall efficiency of over 80% (compared to an industry stand=
ard of 50% to 60%) allowed the unit to kick out 29,000 of its rated 35,000 B=
tus. That's enough to heat a 2,500-square-foot home. Even more important fro=
m a consumer concern standpoint, the Dell model is grid-independent. As wast=
e heat travels up the exhaust vent, it passes through a breadbox-sized unit=20=
that uses conductive metals reacting with the heat to produce electricity fo=
r the stove. The generator charges a battery designed to both cold-start the=
stove and keep the motors running during operation. Dell plans to sell the=20=
unit as an add-on kit for older stoves beginning next February. It will sell=
for about $350.

No advance in power delivery systems means much if the stove has to ru=
n on 100-volt AC house current rather than 12-volt DC. The vast majority of=20=
pellet stove makers continue to use the former system=85and we can understan=
d why. AC motors are cheaper and since the stoves they power are designed to=
plug into a home outlet, there's been no real urgent need to complicate mat=
ters. The trouble begins, however, when the lights go out. Finding a seconda=
ry source of AC is an expensive and incredibly wasteful proposition (think $=
3,000 for a generator), whereas 12-v DC current can come from a car battery,=
solar panel or small wind turbine. Thelin Co., Dell Point and Reliant Stove=
s are currently the only manufacturers who produce 12-v pellet models, and t=
hough pricey, they are really the only options for those purists who regard=20=
grid-dependent units as either annoying or downright dangerous.=20

The EPA, for its part, is poised to give the pellet business a tremend=
ous shot in the arm. By 2003, the Agency will mandate that the waste smoke f=
rom wood burning stoves contain particles no larger than 2.5 microns. This w=
ill represent a 70% drop from the current level=85a mark that conventional w=
oodstoves will find incredibly difficult (and expensive) to meet. Currently,=
all pellet stoves meet this mark-a fact that will help keep their costs jus=
t above reasonable but below outrageous. The clean burns most of the stoves=20=
feature is a simple by-product of the fuel. Pellets are deliberately manufac=
tured without ash and soot-producing contents, and are bound together by nat=
ural lignen. Cordwood has far too many environmental influences acting upon=20=
it in the growing stage to ever reach a form that will be as predictably cle=
an as pellet fuel, and the amount of research and development that cordwood=20=
stove makers will require to meet EPA requirements could price many of them=20=
out of the marketplace.=20

If the pellet industry is going to succeed in promoting this renewable=
form of biomass energy, they must finally address the issue of convenience.=
Many homeowners choose pellet heat because they cannot lug 40-pound armfuls=
of cordwood from the shed. Yet will they be better able to carry a 40-pound=
bag of pellets from the car trunk? And weekly trips to the garden supply ce=
nter or homeowners store to buy a portion of the three tons of winter fuel y=
ou will need (150 bags) is a considerable waste of time, money and gasoline.=
Oil, propane and natural gas, all distributed by multinational corporations=
, are just a phone call away from virtually all of the 100 million household=
s in the United States. Because the Pellet Fuels Institute wants homeowners=20=
to have the same access to renewable fuels, it has launched a pilot program,=
in tandem with the Department of Energy and scheduled to begin next year, t=
o design a distribution network that would service 30 test homes near a sele=
cted pellet manufacturer. Metering systems will be installed on delivery tru=
cks to provide reliable accounting and measurable efficiency. Over the 24 mo=
nths of the field test, determinations will be made as to the feasibility of=
a national network (similar networks exist in the U.K., Sweden and other co=
untries).

Such a system would not only add to customer convenience, it would sav=
e money and resources currently required to package and distribute pellets f=
rom the 70 North American manufacturers to retail outlets. When the system t=
ruly becomes turnkey, there will begin a quiet revolution in energy consumpt=
ion: the first nationally distributed renewable energy source ... ever.=20
=20

=20

=20
Where can I find Star Plate Connectors?=20
Click here for the answer =20
=20

=20
The Solar Powered Home
with Rob Roy
[More...][Order]
[See Other Energy Books] =20

=20
=20

=20

------=_NextPart_001_00D8_01C0E5B4.654D1B80
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding:quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dwindows-1252=
"><BASE href=3D"file://C:\Program Files\Common Files\Microsoft Shared\Stati=
onery\"> <STYLE>BODY { =09BACKGROUND-POSITION: center top; MARGIN-TOP: 25px;=
FONT-SIZE: 10pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 25px; COLOR: #000000; BACKGROUND-REPEAT: no-r=
epeat; FONT-FAMILY: Arial } </STYLE> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4611.1300=
" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#d8d0c8 background=3Dcid:00d601c=
0e5e6$ae5dde40$18e5b618@whtrdg1.co.home.com> <DIV>Dear Biomass Suporters:</D=
IV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I found the excellent article (below) on the=
current state of pellet heating stoves in Mother Earth News. <A href=3D"h=
ttp://www.motherearthnews.com/energy/energy176.pellet.shtml">(www.mothereart=
hnews.com/energy/energy176.pellet.shtml</A>).  It has many implication=
s that go far beyond home heat.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When we use the=
word "fuel", we generally mean a prepared energy source suitable for deliv=
ery and sale for a particular purpose.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>P=
etroleum is an excellent energy source.  Petroleum is not a fuel; it m=
ust be refined to give us gasoline, lpg, kerosene etc.</DIV> <DIV> </DI=
V> <DIV>Natural gas at the wellhead is and excellent energy source.  It=
isn't a fuel; you need to build pipelines at >$1M/mile to deliver it.</=
DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Biomass is a renewable energy source that w=
ill be around when all the others are gone.  However, it is =
not a fuel.  Wood needs to be cut to size and dried; other forms=20=
(straw, paper, ag residues) need to be densified (pelletized, briqueted or=20=
compressed to logs)  or very special equipment needs to be used for bu=
rning.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>        &n=
bsp;               &=
nbsp;              =20=
               =
    ~~~~~~~</DIV> <DIV>I have been an enthusiast of densific=
ation ever since I became interested in biomass as a renewable energy sourc=
e and I wrote a report (with Becky Bryant) and research paper on it in 1978=
-80.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Densification makes a "fungible" fu=
el out of a wide variety of energy sources, sawdust, paper, straw, peanut s=
hells ....  The fuel is typically easily transported, stored and fed i=
nto furnaces, gasifiers and stoves.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>&nb=
sp;I just went down in my lab and measured..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>&n=
bsp;            =
            &nbs=
p;  BULK DENSITIES OF SOME CHIPS, SEEDS AND PELLETS</DIV> <DIV> &=
nbsp;          DENSITY   =
              &nbsp=
;               &nbs=
p;       kg/liter</DIV> <DIV>Softwood chips ("Denv=
er dry", 7% MCWB)         &nbs=
p; 0.19</DIV> <DIV>Home Depot 1/4" sawdust pellets    &n=
bsp;               &=
nbsp;   0.68</DIV>
<DIV>Birdsong 3/8" peanut shell pellets       =
=20
               =20
0.65</DIV>
<DIV>Corn           =20
               =20
               =20
               =20
      0.76</DIV>
<DIV>Soybeans          &nb=
sp;            &=
nbsp;           &nbsp=
;            &nb=
sp;         0.77 =20
  </DIV>
<DIV>Coconut shells (broken to 1/4 inch pieces)    =20
       0.54</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Thus it is seen that pellets and seeds are 3-4 times as dense wood chip=
s=20
which in turn are </DIV>
<DIV>3-4 times denser than loose pellets, straws etc.  </DIV>
<DIV>              &n=
bsp;=20
               =20
               =20
            ~~~~~~~~~</DIV>
<DIV>The wood pellet stove is the best thing that could have happened for=20
converting biomass from an energy source to a real prepared commercial=20
fuel.  The stoves are clean, automatic and efficient and over half a=20
million are in use for home heating (see below).  </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>As the cost of natural gas and propane go up we will see more and more=20
pellet (and corn and maybe soybean) stoves sold.  They in turn will cre=
ate=20
enough demand so that other forms of biomass will also enter the market.&nbs=
p;=20
</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>From the use viewpoint pellets and densified fuels also make other=20
applications more practical.  I would not consider using woodchips in m=
y=20
gasifiers or stoves if I could count on a supply of pellets.  The WWII=20
gasifiers that had to be filled every 2-3 hours of driving could have been=20
filled once a day with densified fuels.  </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>So, I hope densification in all its forms is here to stay and will make=
=20
biomass in all its forms into a very competitive fuel. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Onward to a sustainable fuel era...</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>TOM REED</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV align=3Dcenter>         Dr. Tho=
mas=20
Reed<BR>  The Biomass Energy Foundation<BR> 1810 Smith Rd., Golden=
, CO=20
80401<BR>303 278 0558; <A href=3D"mailto:tombreed@home.com">tombreed@home.c=
om</A></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dcenter> </DIV>
<DIV align=3Dcenter>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~</DIV>
<TABLE cellSpacing=3D0 cellPadding=3D15 width=3D375 border=3D0>
<TBODY>
<TR>
<TD vAlign=3Dtop align=3Dleft colSpan=3D2>
<DIV align=3Dcenter><FONT face=3D"New York" color=3D#ff6347 size=3D6>T=
he Future=20
<BR>of Fuel<BR></DIV></FONT>
<P align=3Dcenter><FONT face=3D"New York" color=3D#800800 size=3D3>Pel=
let heat=20
takes a <BR>bold leap forward.</FONT> </P>
<P align=3Dcenter><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=3D3>. . . .=20=
. . . .=20
.</FONT>=20
<P align=3Dcenter><FONT face=3D"New York" color=3D#000000 size=3D2><B>=
By Matt=20
Scanlon</B></FONT>=20
<P align=3Dcenter> </P></TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD vAlign=3Dtop align=3Dleft colSpan=3D2><FON=
T face=3D"Times New Roman" color=3D#ff6347 size=3D6>A</FONT><FONT =20=
face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>s the woodstove industry rides the las=
t wave=20
of Y2K hysteria into a land of record sales, manufacturers have alread=
y=20
begun bracing themselves for the buying falloff that will inevitably c=
ome=20
after we, and they, wake on January 1 to find the same world we left t=
he=20
evening before. While mindful of the fact that a burning fire will rem=
ain=20
an irreplaceable source of comfort and aesthetic beauty to homeowners,=
=20
manufacturers can't avoid the fact that millions of even clean-burning=
EPA=20
woodstoves bought and used in the next century will stress cordwood=20
availability and air quality to an extent that will, ultimately, make=20=
wood=20
heat an economic anachronism. </FONT></B></FONT><FONT face=3D"T=
imes New Roman" color=3D#000000 size=3D3>
<P>More and more, the answer seems to reside in the form of tiny wood=20
pellets. Mother has featured pellet stoves since the first North Ameri=
can=20
pellet plant opened in Brownsville, Oregon, nearly 30 years ago, but t=
he=20
newest generation of pellet appliances makes our first home-built mode=
ls=20
seem something less than quaint by comparison. </P>
<P>Made from sawdust and wood chips (waste materials from furniture ma=
king=20
and other wood manufacturing processes), pellets are simply trees save=
d=20
from the landfill. At an average price of $150 a ton, a $450 yearly=20
investment in pellets will heat the average North American home. This=20
places pellet heat, on a value-per-dollar scale, just slightly behind=20
black gold (given current oil prices), substantially ahead of electric=
=20
heat and increasingly on par with natural gas. Moreover, pellet fuel h=
as=20
not ridden the wave of market fluctuation the way oil and natural gas=20
have. In 1990, a 40-pound bag of pellets cost $3, and we found the sam=
e=20
price today at retail stores. Typically, pellet costs have not even ke=
pt=20
pace with inflation, which actually means that your $3 bag is a much=20
better buy now than it was ten years ago.</P>
<P>Apart from the environmental advantage of fewer wasted trees, pelle=
ts=20
have an ash content low enough to make them burn up to 12 times more=20
cleanly than the most efficient EPA-certified cordwood stoves.=20
Furthermore, pellet stoves emit fewer allergens into the home, are=20
automated to burn for exceptionally long periods of time, are=20
thermostatically controllable (unlike most cordwood stoves), and keep=20=
your=20
clothes and floors clear of the dirt tracked in from a trip to the=20
woodpile. </P>
<P>The price of all this convenience is, however, seen in your monthly=
=20
electricity bill. Nearly all the 600,000 pellet stoves operating in No=
rth=20
America require current to run the heat fans and pellet feeders. This=20
would represent only a conditional annoyance were it not for the fact=20=
that=20
just over 50% of pellet stove owners use the appliance as their primar=
y=20
source of heat. Throw in an ice storm of the kind that left huge porti=
ons=20
of Vermont, New Hampshire and southeastern Canada without power last=20
winter and you have invited a potentially home-abandoning situation. A=
s a=20
result, the pellet stove industry has not seen anything like the robus=
t,=20
Y2K-fear-driven conventional woodstove sales. "Eighty percent of the=20
people who look at a pellet stove are worried about its grid dependenc=
y,"=20
reports Mark Drisdelle of Dell Point Technologies Inc., a pellet stove=
=20
manufacturer out of Montreal, Canada. "They are more than a little=20
hesitant to make a $2,000 investment in a primary source of heat if it=
=20
isn't flexible enough to function without the grid if necessary." </P>
<P>This year marked the first industry-wide acknowledgement of that fa=
ct,=20
resulting in seven new designs which we examined at the Hearth Product=
s=20
Expo in Phoenix (of all places!). Innovations in burn cleanliness and=20
major strides toward grid-independence were shocking to those of us wh=
o=20
were accustomed to a glacial pace in woodstove development. "We haven'=
t=20
seen this level of product roll-out in years," offered Averill Cook,=20
president of the Pellet Fuels Institute. "We're thrilled that=20
manufacturers are responding."</P>
<P>The most innovative model we examined was Dell's DC 2000. Though at=
=20
first struck dumb by the unit's price tag of $2,495, we softened a bit=
=20
when we found that an overall efficiency of over 80% (compared to an=20
industry standard of 50% to 60%) allowed the unit to kick out 29,000 o=
f=20
its rated 35,000 Btus. That's enough to heat a 2,500-square-foot home.=
=20
Even more important from a consumer concern standpoint, the Dell model=
is=20
grid-independent. As waste heat travels up the exhaust vent, it passes=
=20
through a breadbox-sized unit that uses conductive metals reacting wit=
h=20
the heat to produce electricity for the stove. The generator charges a=
=20
battery designed to both cold-start the stove and keep the motors runn=
ing=20
during operation. Dell plans to sell the unit as an add-on kit for old=
er=20
stoves beginning next February. It will sell for about $350.</P>
<P>No advance in power delivery systems means much if the stove has to=
run=20
on 100-volt AC house current rather than 12-volt DC. The vast majority=
of=20
pellet stove makers continue to use the former system=85and we can=20
understand why. AC motors are cheaper and since the stoves they power=20=
are=20
designed to plug into a home outlet, there's been no real urgent need=20=
to=20
complicate matters. The trouble begins, however, when the lights go ou=
t.=20
Finding a secondary source of AC is an expensive and incredibly wastef=
ul=20
proposition (think $3,000 for a generator), whereas 12-v DC current ca=
n=20
come from a car battery, solar panel or small wind turbine. Thelin Co.=
,=20
Dell Point and Reliant Stoves are currently the only manufacturers who=
=20
produce 12-v pellet models, and though pricey, they are really the onl=
y=20
options for those purists who regard grid-dependent units as either=20
annoying or downright dangerous. </P>
<P>The EPA, for its part, is poised to give the pellet business a=20
tremendous shot in the arm. By 2003, the Agency will mandate that the=20
waste smoke from wood burning stoves contain particles no larger than=20=
2.5=20
microns. This will represent a 70% drop from the current level=85a mar=
k that=20
conventional woodstoves will find incredibly difficult (and expensive)=
to=20
meet. Currently, all pellet stoves meet this mark-a fact that will hel=
p=20
keep their costs just above reasonable but below outrageous. The clean=
=20
burns most of the stoves feature is a simple by-product of the fuel.=20
Pellets are deliberately manufactured without ash and soot-producing=20
contents, and are bound together by natural lignen. Cordwood has far t=
oo=20
many environmental influences acting upon it in the growing stage to e=
ver=20
reach a form that will be as predictably clean as pellet fuel, and the=
=20
amount of research and development that cordwood stove makers will req=
uire=20
to meet EPA requirements could price many of them out of the marketpla=
ce.=20
</P>
<P>If the pellet industry is going to succeed in promoting this renewa=
ble=20
form of biomass energy, they must finally address the issue of=20
convenience. Many homeowners choose pellet heat because they cannot lu=
g=20
40-pound armfuls of cordwood from the shed. Yet will they be better ab=
le=20
to carry a 40-pound bag of pellets from the car trunk? And weekly trip=
s to=20
the garden supply center or homeowners store to buy a portion of the t=
hree=20
tons of winter fuel you will need (150 bags) is a considerable waste o=
f=20
time, money and gasoline. Oil, propane and natural gas, all distribute=
d by=20
multinational corporations, are just a phone call away from virtually=20=
all=20
of the 100 million households in the United States. Because the Pellet=
=20
Fuels Institute wants homeowners to have the same access to renewable=20
fuels, it has launched a pilot program, in tandem with the Department=20=
of=20
Energy and scheduled to begin next year, to design a distribution netw=
ork=20
that would service 30 test homes near a selected pellet manufacturer.=20
Metering systems will be installed on delivery trucks to provide relia=
ble=20
accounting and measurable efficiency. Over the 24 months of the field=20
test, determinations will be made as to the feasibility of a national=20
network (similar networks exist in the U.K., Sweden and other=20
countries).</P>
<P>Such a system would not only add to customer convenience, it would=20=
save=20
money and resources currently required to package and distribute pelle=
ts=20
from the 70 North American manufacturers to retail outlets. When the=20
system truly becomes turnkey, there will begin a quiet revolution in=20
energy consumption: the first nationally distributed renewable energy=20
source ... ever. </P></FONT></TD></TR></TBODY></TA=
BLE>
<TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D165 bgColor=3D#ffffcc height=3D500>
<P>
<P>=20
<P>
=20

<TABLE cellSpacing=3D0 cellPadding=3D0 border=3D0>
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<TD vAlign=3Dcenter align=3Dmiddle width=3D155 bgColor=3D#ffffcc heigh=
t=3D39><FONT face=3D"arial, helvetica" size=3D2><B>
=20
Where can I find Star Plate Connectors?</B> <BR><A href=3D"=
file:///C:/askmother/">Click here for the answer</A> </FONT></TD>
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From Anonymous Tue Nov 26 17:30:48 2002
From: Anonymous (Anonymous)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:58 2004
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <faf24770c60fcb77122a883871de337a@NO-ID-FOUND.mhonarc.org>

My interest is primarily in countries or parts of countries which have
limited access to, or funds to pay for, natural gas, LPG, kerosene, coal,
electricity, etc. I am surprised that you see the reserves of these fuels
as "so-called 'non-sustainable". The evidence that they are not sustainable
seems overwhelming to me - on both global warming and resource depletion
grounds.

> (d) what might have happened in China for small-scale non-household or
> non-cooking thermal markets, using biomass or coal? (From what I remember
from
> 15 years ago, cooking animal feed was a major household-level thermal
energy
> use, for instance).
>
Sorry, no data at my end. The importance to me was that the Smith paper
described a rural program that was huge, low-cost, and apparently successful
(I think mainly because efficiencies were significantly (50% ?) improved
over stoves already better than in other parts of the world - and with an
apparent intention to continue improving.

> (d) isn't broad-based rural income growth perhaps the most important
variable in
> changing household fuel use patterns? If there is such growth (unlike many
of
> the sub-Saharan Africa countries which stagnated and/or were torn by
strife and
> war over the last 20 years), would it not make more sense to get out of
the
> "stoves" silo and explore more opportunities for ventilation (new building
> construction), cleaner fuels (kerosene/LPG/natural gas/electricity)?
>
Sorry. That is not the message I got from the Smith paper, which dealt
with a change by at least 90% of a rural population from a lower first cost
lower-efficiency stove to a higher first cost, lower life-cycle cost. I
have no problem with anyone (presumably the fossil fuels industries) trying
to promote their own fuels, but I see no reason that a program labeled
"sustainable" should do so. I believe it will take a massive subsidy (that
is not available to my knowledge nor being proposed by anyone) to make the
switch you are proposing. For most of the fuels that are realistically
available, your proposed switch will add to global warming, increased health
problems, balance-of-payments deficits, and a reduction in local jobs. The
Chinese program, as described by Smith et al says much of that - but with a
big continuing need to show that stoves can be designed to have acceptable
health aspects. It wouldn't surprise me to learn the Chinese are already
well on their way.

> In short, I am skeptical of your enthusiasm to "emulate" the old China
stoves
> program. Except perhaps the lack of foreign expertise and money. Sure, the
> Indian program didn't have those either, and still managed to mess up. I
am not
> too sure, though, if the India-China comparisons of Barnes, et al. tell
all that
> much.) Neither the Chinese or the Indian stoves program satisfied the
knowledge
> needs of Barnes et al. about IAP, but obviously that didn't matter one way
or
> the other.
>
Sorry you are skeptical. There are many biomss-based options
that have received negligible support.

I don't understand your reference to "didn't matter"..

> By contrast, is it mere coincidence that foreign expertise and money went
to
> stoves programs that failed? (Kirk is fond of GWP commitment per meal
cooked; I
> wonder if you could provide any figures on foreign overheads per million
meals
> cooked with improved stoves?) Going by the WEA Chapter 10, there have been
> "several hundred programmes around the world" for improved biomass cooking
> stoves, most of them funded by foreign donors and - I imagine - few of
them
> "emulating" the old China program. The end result in sub-Saharan Africa
was
> still around a million stoves by 1995 in nine countries with the total
> population of around 30 million households. Some (such as in Ethiopia) I
am well
> familiar with, some I know nothing about. If the current prospects for
SSA
> economic growth hold, I bet there's a bigger market for not just improved
> biomass stoves, but for kerosene/LPG/electricity, in both household and
> non-household markets.
>
I miss your point. I wanted to get the Chinese successful stoves
program into the Shell discussion because the Chinese apparently did many
things right - and you apparently do not disagree.

I failed to mention an important part of the Smith paper - which gave
much credit to the Chiese program evaluation process. This may be a big
reason for the failures you cite.

The Chinese also did a lot of R&D. - and the total subsidy seems to
have been well justified in terms of their goals. I consider $200 million
to be a small amount for what they accomplished. I see nothing in the Smith
paper or the Shell program that says this cannot be replicated. If we are
not going to learn from successful programs, where are we going to get our
guidance?

> Unfortunately, the WEA assessors didn't bother to give any data on how
much
> money - and more importantly, scarce human/technical resources - were
spent in
> the "hundreds of programs" of the past, nor how much more it would cost to
scale
> up successful -- and new -- stoves programs over the next 15 years. What
is the
> likelihood of a 80% reduction in the $/stove (disseminated and used)
ratio when
> all research and program overheads are counted? (Nobody wants to talk
about real
> money, it seems; just hectares of forests saved, even if they were
otherwise
> lost to timber, land-clearance, and other uses or abuses of forest lands.)
>
Again, my note was only on the Chinese program - and I do not claim to
be an expert on it. I said nothing about WEA assessors, so you will have to
better lay the groundwork for what you like or don't like about that work.

I do not know what you mean by an "80% reduction." The Chinese
purchasers of 100+ million stoves paid about $1 billion and this paid
totally for all materials and labor. I guess that the 20% number used for
Chinese government support for R&D and promotion has since declined in
percentage terms. You are incorrect that Smith et al did not talk about
real money. There was no mention in their article about hectares. I again
recommend this article to all interested in the delivery of improved stoves.

> I wonder what your STOVES list colleagues would bet about the prospects of
> developing and installing high-efficiency, low-IAP biomass or coal stoves
in
> several world regions by, say, 2010, and developing the production,
marketing
> and development mechanisms to carry it forward. Would it be at least 200
million
> in India and China combined? Another 50 million in other Asia, 20 million
in
> sub-Saharan Africa, 50 million in rural areas of FSU/EECPEs, 25 million in
> Central and South America? If not, just what would be a feasible,
worthwhile
> target, and who can be held accountable for at least meeting a pre-set
"foreign
> overheads" per million improved stoves?
>
I think a good target number starts with the US$1.80 per stove for
subsidy for total R&D and promotional efforts, as described by Kirk et all.
I see no reason that Shell should provide all of that subsidy number. The
Chinese were able to establish a good successful program for many reasons
that I only partly understand - but a long heritage of technology
development, and good manufacturing capabilities probably had a lot to do
with it. Not every country is so fortunate.
But to answer your question, I guess the first US$200 million of total
subsidies probably would only achieve half of the Chinese total - therefore
50 million stoves might be all that is possible (or $4 per stove).
Similarly, it may not be possible to get the Shell share to be as low as the
Chinese central government share (which was 3% or 30 cents per stove). So
if it tripled to 10% (or even $1.00 per stove), perhaps the first $100
million of Shell money might get the program to 100 million stoves (It cost
the central Chinese government about 3% or $6 million.) (This probably
assumes other donors contribute - in addition to local government support.)
My guess is that most donors would consider this a bargain. I am presently
fighting a coal-fired electric plant with much higher costs for pollution
control - and it will serve only a small fraction of the people that this
$100 million would.
I presume that countries will have to compete for the Shell money and
will have to put together teams of donors to pull this off. The countries
themselves will have to agree to targets something like this ($2 to 4.00 R &
D + sales support per stove ), but they will be relying on the guidance from
their in-country stoves experts, who have their professional credibility to
consider.
No one will be going to jail for failing to meet conversion targets -
but the Smith paper is full of other goverment policy options for ensuring
that an improved stoves program should succeed. Remember that the assumed
$10 paid by consumers is still going fully for all materials and labor - the
program does not require continuIng subsidies to be sustainable - and the
consumer does not see a lowered cost product - only a better product.

> All things considered, it is pre-mature to endorse the background paper's
> enthusiasm about "improved stoves" in isolation from other "interventions"
that
> have been discussed on this list. Let me just quote you a conclusion from
the
> WEA Chapter 10 (in line with other quotes from Kirk and Dan I gave
earlier):
>
> "Even the best biomass stoves available today do not greatly reduce
the
> health-damaging pollution from biomass combustion, although they may put
it
> outside through well-operating chimneys or hoods. This is certainly better
than
> releasing the smoke inside; but in densely populated villages and slums,
it can
> lead to heavy neighbourhood pollution. Thus even nearby households using
clean
> (or no!) fuels may suffer from high levels of exposure. Therefore, because
of
> health concerns -- unless truly clean-burning biomass stoves can be
developed at
> reasonable costs -- in many areas, improved stoves are probably not
sustainable
> in the long run. They may continue to play an important interim role in
> improving the quality of life of the rural and urban poor; but as
concluded in
> chapter 3, the long-term goal should be to eliminate household use of
> unprocessed solid fuels."
>
The paper under discussion is not the backgrounder nor Chapter 10.

The key phrases in your Chaper 10 quote were "unless.....costs" and
"unprocessed". I am not as pessimistic as the authors of Chapter 10 - and I
believe the Chinese experience shows that an improved stoves effort can be
worthwhile even if not producing perfect stoves. I also do not see Chapter
10 as promoting fossil fuels only. There are many sustainable biomass and
solar approaches as well - including the local production of fuels like
methanol.

> Note "truly" and "in many areas". I am not much bothered about the "long
run";
> if there are significant short-term improvements that can carry on for
20-30
> years, the "stoves community" would have met a great challenge -- but the
> overall numbers are crucial. I suggest that Shell Foundation support for
stoves
> R&D, production, and dissemination be limited strictly to doers on the
ground --
> a few have made proposals on the list already -- and that THEY be required
to
> formulate a supportive research program (for smokelessness,
epidemiological
> studies) appropriate to THEIR knowledge needs. The international expertise
> apparatus may well be needed, but it should remain in the subordinate,
> supportive role. (If that means monies are slow to flow, so be it.)

I m not aware of anyone who has proposed other than what you have
suggested. Again, some countries can go it alone - others can't. The
lesson I take from the paper under discussion is that the proposing
countries should seriously consider a cooperative effort with the Chinese -
a proposition your dictates seem designed to preclude.
>
> Incidentally, let me take this opportunity to respond to Jonathan's query
three
> weeks ago about improved coal briquetting in China. Without some testing
on
> coals and stoves, and information about other alternatives, I can't say
much.
> Years ago I had researched coal use in South Korean and Japanese homes,
and a
> few years ago had an opportunity to look at coal stoves in Ulan Bataar. My
gut
> sense is, there should be a presumption against supporting a single
technology,
> but if it seems that a focus on single technology is appropriate for the
> foreseeable future, and if the pre-conditions for scaling up successful
pilots
> exist (or can be set up relatively easily), then yes, improved coal
briquetting
> merits support. Even for your "Rocky Mountain" view of the world, physical
> resource sustainability of coal in China should not cause sleepless
nights. (If
> you are worried about Colorado coal reserves, there is a lot more just a
few
> miles away in Wyoming and Montana).
>
> Nikhil
>

Sorry, are you now saying you do or don't support the "single
technology" approach of coal briquettes?

There may be a few places that should consider coal for household
cooking - but I don't know of many. I would suggest those places find a
donor program that hasn't already expressed concern about both health and
global climate change. I do not say anything about the world availability
of coal - a resource the world and especially the US happens to have a lot
of but few countries do. I hope you are not proposing that this dirtiest of
fuels should be shipped around the world. What problem are you proposing to
solve with that solution? My reading of this article is that coal is more
convenient for the cook - just as is charcoal. There is apparently zero use
of charcoal in China - probably because coal is cheaper (after its subsidy?)

The interesting thing to me is not that the Chinese briquettes are made
of coal - but rather that they have holes. I think there is much to be
learned about "holey" briquettes - as we have discussed recently on
"stoves". Would the Chinese be using so many coal briquettes if they did
not have holes? My guess is "no".

Ron

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From Anonymous Tue Nov 26 17:30:50 2002
From: Anonymous (Anonymous)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:00 2004
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <74fe1d474e3d165109c7e267205fdf1b@NO-ID-FOUND.mhonarc.org>

It is hard to stop these coal briquettes from burning once you have
started them. This would be a disadvantage to making a larger
briquette. I have heard that in China, people just cover the stove
inlet to slow the combustion down. The homeowners tend to use about 4"
briquettes and the larger ones I have tested (6") are used by street
vendors. The biomass briquettes may perform entirely differently.

Sincerely yours,

Tami

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From Anonymous Tue Nov 26 17:30:53 2002
From: Anonymous (Anonymous)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:06 2004
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <062d0d2a5cec4977c7387a55ba571bfb@NO-ID-FOUND.mhonarc.org>

geometries to achieve mixing before ignition. Messages from Alex =
English may=20
provide some leads.  (Alex? Tom?)  </FONT><FONT =
color=3D#000000=20
face=3DArial lang=3D0 size=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"> =
<BR><BR></FONT><FONT=20
color=3D#000000 face=3DArial lang=3D0 size=3D2=20
FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF">   There is another set of ideas =
that we=20
could follow relative to blowers.  Your University staff that =
is=20
skilled in electronics can perhaps find ways to get low cost =
variability -=20
and couple with PV cells or thermoelectrics (or several other =
strictly=20
mechanical approaches mentioned last April by Andrew Heggie). =
 The=20
issues of blowers and charcoal-making should be kept separate - one =
can=20
possibly do a better job at charcoal-making with blowers.  I =
think you=20
have concluded that natural convection is more appropriate in remote =
areas=20
and you may be right.  But this needs more =
research.</FONT><FONT=20
color=3D#000000 face=3DArial lang=3D0 size=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"> =

<BR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR></FONT><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial =
lang=3D0 size=3D2=20
FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"><BR>Don't forget to add pulse combustion to the =
list of=20
items needing research.  Although the operation of pulse =
combustors is=20
not well understood - even by experts in the field - they do appear to =
have=20
many benefits to offer the development of stoves.  They can =
provide=20
vacuum to draw gas through a negative pressure gasifier stage, they =
can burn=20
ash and tar laden woodgas, they generate copious heat, and they =
provide=20
exhaust pressure which can be used both to increase heat transfer =
rates and=20
pump exhaust out of a vent tube - eliminating the need for a natural =
draft=20
chimney. <BR><BR>The down side is that they can be difficult to start, =
and=20
they will require silencing that can not be disabled.  These =
problems may=20
require a high-tech design program to achieve a solution - =
particularly if a=20
valveless pulse combustor is to be developed.  But once =
optimized, a=20
pulse combustor seems like it might be an ideal solution to the stoves =
problem=20
- a combined blower and burner with no moving parts. <BR><BR>More =
information=20
can be found by doing a search for "pulse combustion" on one of the =
search=20
engines or at www.uspto.gov.  If I find more relavant information =
about=20
pulse combustion and stoves, I'll post it here.  In the meantime, =
if any=20
one else has more comments (and particularly helpful are considered=20
criticisms) about them, please don't hesitate to share it here. =
<BR><BR>Vernon=20
Harris <BR></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C141DC.574F2620--

From Anonymous Tue Nov 26 17:30:53 2002
From: Anonymous (Anonymous)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:07 2004
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <ff007fc46df3afbc1c173288bf1418b6@NO-ID-FOUND.mhonarc.org>

I believe this might answers the usual question: " If I do it your way, what
will you give me ? Free hot water sounds like a good reward. And the vented
smoke is eliminated.

> 4. But how about this option.? Assuming there is some local group that
> sells hot tea, or brews beer, or washes clothes, etc. Might there be a
> market for the "clean coal" (coke) - where the price could be slightly
> higher and the person having the thermal need basically gets free fuel?

The difficulty of lighting coke is the drawback here, but all possibilities
should be investigated.
But I think that the initial aim should be to convert smoke into hot water.
One will have to form a liaison group with the people, and find out which
ideas are acceptable to them.

> > I fully agree with Crispin's views. bottom burn gives the best sulphur
> > removal, ........................................

> (RWL): I am missing something - what is the bottom burn approach? Is it
a
> flaring approach with heat recapture?

Lighting the pile of fuel at the bottom, as is practised, but introducing
flaring. I think that the water heating can change this.

> 2. I don't believe the sulphur removal will be different either way - can
> you explain why top or bottom lighting should make a difference? I
contend
> tht you can'r flare with bottom lighting (except for a down-draft design)

I think that we can move on to top lighting. as above.

> > Whether coal or bio-mass is used the methods would be the same, just the
> air
> > porting would be slightly different for the different gas composition,
and
> > the fire bed area and depth would be roughly in proportion to the heat
> > value of the fuel. The bottom burn also allows fuel to be added in
small
> > quantities as required. This would not be done with coal while cooking,
> but
> > the longer burn of the coke should eliminate this need.
> >
> (RWL): 1. Not sure of your application here, but for wood alone
there
> can be many "best" fire bed areas and depths. During the pyrolysis phase,
> the area largely determines the power out. Then, the depth determines the
> energy out. It should roughly be the same for coal. For the same power
> out, the coal and wood units might have nearly the same area. For the
same
> energy you would need a greater depth. But after both are mostly carbon,
> the issue must become strongly related to the weight density.

Yes the weight density was in my thoughts, but I think that I was also
influenced by the locomotive firebed constraints which is a different area.
I must remember to keep eggs in one basket and apples in another.
The air porting will be different to wood, as the pyrollisis gas has a
different composition, and the coke a higher density.

A new series of tests is called, for starting at the beginning with the
latest aim in mind. paying particular attention to the latest ideas and
questions raised ?

ENERGY COST FIGURES.

My costing system used was purely an exercise to determine the relative cost
to the people concerned using the different fuels in different ways, using
the local currency. The result indicated that coal was cheaper in all
cases. This shows that all improvements in this localised area should be
directed at clean coal burning.

BIO-MASS.
It was suggested that tree growing should be implemented in the area. Trees
do not grow naturally in the area, those that are grown have to be nurtured
at great expense, to get then established, and then grow very slowly. this
would not be economically viable, costing more than wood transported from
the tree growing areas.

Regards,
John.Davies.

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From Anonymous Tue Nov 26 17:31:06 2002
From: Anonymous (Anonymous)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:21 2004
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <27ca768d2256dd1e81406876bbe3d99d@NO-ID-FOUND.mhonarc.org>

Scratch that one.

Now- haven't I seen household CO alarms- similar to those lithium-battery
powered disc-shaped smoke detectors? I might be mistaken...........

elk

--------------------------
Elsen L. Karstad
elk@wananchi.com
www.chardust.com
Nairobi Kenya

----- Original Message -----
From: "AJH" <andrew.heggie@dtn.ntl.com>
To: <stoves@crest.org>
Sent: Friday, November 23, 2001 2:22 AM
Subject: Re: charcoal briquettes- 'vertical holes'

On Thu, 22 Nov 2001 09:33:48 +0300, "elk" <elk@wananchi.com> wrote:

>
>We've talked and talked about CO metering on this list, but none of our
technically-inclined members have >come up with a workable and affordable
instrument design yet. What's up guys? With all the household CO >meters
that are on the market in NorAm and Europe, we should be able to cobble
something together that's >pretty cheap and robust... and battery powered.
Once it's designed and tested I bet we could get funding >from Shell or
similar to get a couple dozen meters out in the field through this list.
THEN we can start >solving a few mysteries and educating people in a proper
hands-on manner. We all agree that seeing is >believing!
>

Here a flue gas combustion analyser seems to cost about GBP1500, a 12v
powered hot wire system for monitoring CO in car exhausts costs GBP50.
The problem is the manufacture will not divulge the algorithm which is
used to display the CO percentage. Typically it will display 2% CO in
ambient air, which suggests the calibration is to do with the thermal
conductivity AND/OR specific heat of oxygen and CO, presumably there
being a mutual inverse probability or both appearing together (unless
the car is not sparking on one cylinder). Gas sampling is propelled by
fluctuations in exhaust pressure. It is one of those things I did not
have time to show Ronal in his brief visit, my colleagues have not let
me paly with their flue gas analyzer for comparison as its use is
restricted to lab personnel and not oily erks :-(.

AJH

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From Anonymous Tue Nov 26 17:31:10 2002
From: Anonymous (Anonymous)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:26 2004
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <81c8caf58ff621597d2b66bc78ffa25a@NO-ID-FOUND.mhonarc.org>

Great letter Dean. Needs to be printed on parchment and pinned on all our
walls. Humility is a necessary part of learning.

Yours from Tom Reed, BEF STOVEWORKS

Dr. Thomas Reed
The Biomass Energy Foundation
1810 Smith Rd., Golden, CO 80401
303 278 0558;
tombreed@home.com; www.woodgas.com

~~~~~~~
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dean Still" <dstill@epud.net>
To: <stoves@crest.org>
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2001 5:21 PM
Subject: Re: Emma asks about testing lorena and three stone

> Dear Das,
>
> When I came to Aprovecho in 1989, staff started seriously comparing the
> Lorena to the open fire. Aprovecho had helped to invent the stove and felt
> responsible that it wasn't as great as first thought...The Lorena stove
was
> always much worse than the open fire and pot in tests but I tried to point
> out in my previous reply that it is very difficult to quantify the
> difference since operator expertise greatly determines how much wood is
> being expended in both cases.
>
> In 1999, I had my class of 14 inexperienced college students make 42
three
> stone fires, outside in a mild breeze. The results ranged from 7.6% to
17.8%
> and none of these testers had previous experience. The three stone fire
has
> many advantages over stoves! No heat is diverted into a stove body. Fire
> contacts the bottom and sides of the pot. Sticks can be metered into the
> fire so there is almost complete combustion. The pan is close to the
coals,
> etc.
>
> Putting any kind of a box around a great natural phenomena does not make
it
> a better machine.
>
> It takes a good stove to beat a good three stone fire. Stoves with obvious
> problems often have poorer fuel efficiency. I hope this is one of the
> hurdles that we have collectively jumped over since 1976 (invention of the
> Lorena) when the paradigm was that given the terrible inefficiency of an
> open fire, even dense stoves with poor heat transfer mechanisms just
> naturally had to be vastly more fuel efficient. By 1982, people in Central
> America wrote about how Lorena stoves had other good qualities but that
they
> were not fuel saving. That was 20 years ago and frequently people in the
> field are not aware of this history.
>
> I believe that the big problem in Appropriate Technology stove making is
> that there have not been enough follow up studies and that promoters do
not
> understand thermodynamics. Bad stoves replace bad stoves. Information does
> not flow in any direction: from the field, to the lab, to the money. We
need
> to do better to efficiently get good stoves to the billions of people
using
> biomass which protects health of humans, forests, planet.
>
> Looking at the advantages of the three stone fire showed designers how to
go
> a step further and create simple, inexpensive, durable stoves that were 30
> to 40% fuel efficient. Trying to change the paradigm that earth is a good
> insulation continues to be a great challenge. All over the world, folks
are
> building earthen stoves under the mistaken impression that earthen walls
> insulate around the fire. Books by Baldwin, Prasad, Micuta, etc, etc. have
> somehow not gotten this simple message to stove builders: Earth is not
good
> insulation, instead earthen walls around a fire cool it, creating poorer
> combustion, and earthen walls divert heat from the pot, decreasing fuel
> efficiency.
>
> The paradigm of earth as good insulation is alive and well. When I speak
to
> architecture classes there is general agreement that earth, of course, is
> great insulation. Most folks think of adobe walls as insulating not
> realizing that they moderate temperatures because adobe is low R and
> conductive. The adobe house allows heat and cold to quickly enter the wall
> so that wall temperatures stay around a 24 hour average, great in the
desert
> where day is 90 F and night is 50F. But high mass, low R walls are
terrible
> here in Oregon where day is 40F and night is 30F. Maybe that's why we
> realize the value of insulation! The difference between mass and
insulation
> has not made it into the general awareness of even the educated
professional
> classes here in the U.S.
>
> Yikes!
>
> Appreciating the advantages of the three stone fire began the transition
to
> modern, more fuel efficient, low emission, AT cooking stoves. So I have to
> write the story once in a while because it is a good one, I think...
>
> Aprovecho has wanted to find insulative earth mixtures in part because if
> designers had spent the time to do so initially in 1976, the damned Lorena
> might have been as great as they thought it was.
>
> Best,
>
> Dean
>
>
>
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From Anonymous Tue Nov 26 17:31:28 2002
From: Anonymous (Anonymous)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:41 2004
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <157bb1a3d95160f3129c3553d6a2f211@NO-ID-FOUND.mhonarc.org>

What about a small ceramic cone with a blowpipe in the bottom, put a
small amount of kindling in the bottom with *small* uniform coal on
top once lit, blow air until the coals light, build the fire from
these beginnings.

I concluded the need was to generate CO quickly in order to provide
conditions to cleanly combust any volatiles generated.
>
>Sooo... I must be doing something wrong. What am I missing?

Powerful lungs ?? :-)

AJH

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From Anonymous Tue Nov 26 17:31:39 2002
From: Anonymous (Anonymous)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:54 2004
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <852843f80c4c7d25e3aceadc1179fc1b@NO-ID-FOUND.mhonarc.org>

There is a great resistance to the battery operated fans by the tinkerers.
I lie awake nights thinking of alternatives and there are at least 20 other
means of supplying 3.6 kg of air to 600 g of wood per hour to make a 3 kW
cooking fire. Then I get up and proceed with the 1.5 V AA battery that
lasts 3 hours on high (fast boil) and 6 hours on simmer and costs $0.30 to
$1 retail.

We will also market a small solar charger and lithium ion battery for those
who are offended by disposable batteries.

Tom Reed BEF STOVEWORKS
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gavin Gulliver-Goodall" <Gavin@roseplac.worldonline.co.uk>
To: <stoves@crest.org>
Sent: Saturday, June 01, 2002 9:52 AM
Subject: RE: Wonderful fans!

> Has anyone investigated clockwork- like the clockwork radio. Or gravity -
> like a pendulum clock escapement?
> Something simple like an endless string loop going round a pulley- Pulley
> connected via high gearing to a small fan. String has 3 knots in it
equally
> spaced- there are 2 weights which are slipped over string above knot at
the
> top of the loop and removed at the bottom so you get -say 3 minutes blow
for
> moving the weight once- no constant tending, no batteries, renewable fan
> power?
> I taught kids at a school where we used the falling weight driving a fan
as
> a simple timing device- the fan provided braking so the weight fell slowly
> and they could time an egg with it.
>
> Just a thought for you inventors with stoves to try if you fancy
>
> Or a bicycle pump and a small storage tank- could be a foot pump and a car
> inner tube-
> How much air is needed for enough "blow" to cook a meal with efficient
smoke
> free combustion ?
>
> Cheers
> gavin
> Gavin Gulliver-Goodall
> 3G Energi,
>
> Tel +44 (0)1835 824201
> Fax +44 (0)870 8314098
> Mob +44 (0)7773 781498
> E mail Gavin@3genergi.co.uk <mailto:Gavin@3genergi.co.uk>
>
> The contents of this email and any attachments are the property of 3G
Energi
> and are intended for the confidential use of the named recipient(s) only.
> They may be legally privileged and should not be communicated to or relied
> upon by any person without our express written consent. If you are not an
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> opening any attachment. 3G Energi accepts no liability for any loss or
> damage that may be caused by software viruses.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dean Still [mailto:dstill@epud.net]
> Sent: Friday, May 31, 2002 7:31
> To: stoves@crest.org
> Subject: Re: Wonderful fans!
>
> Dear Paul, Tom, and all,
>
> Peter Scott, Ken Goyer and I have been trying for a while to add a small
fan
> to a sidefeed Rocket. The experiment that shows best promise is made from
a
> 8" high two inch thick home made firebrick cylinder inside a coffee can.
The
> firebrick combustion chamber is pushed against the inside of the coffee
can
> leaving a crescent moon space on the opposite side... A 4" in diameter
round
> hole is cut through both the can and combustion chamber, (near the base of
> each) into which sticks, on top of a shelf, are fed. The space between the
> top of the combustion chamber cylinder and coffee can is filled with
> fiberglass insulation. A 3" in diameter computer fan is used to blow air
> into the space between the firebrick cylinder and coffee can. The air
enters
> the combustion chamber through 1/8th inch holes at the level of the shelf
> except where the holes would blow air out the horizontal feed magazine. A
> higher ring of similarly positioned 5/16" holes, two inches above the
level
> of the shelf, adds additional turbulence.
>
> The stove shows very little smoke, most of the time the air is clear above
> the stove. A pot used to boil water (38% efficiency) had no soot on it
after
> the test. The yellow flames are very excited, as can be imagined. I'll
post
> a picture soon. Aiming the jets of air away from the horizontal fuel
> magazine allows wood to be introduced in the normal manner while the fan
is
> cleaning up smoke and blowing air up the chimney.
>
> Tom, as usual, is right, I think...Air is the solution to pollution. In
this
> case, the air is even cold but the jets of air make for a very active fire
> that does not want to smoke even when too much fuel is pushed into the
fire.
> In our last experiment, Ken rigged up a regulator to the air supply. When
we
> pushed way too much fuel into the combustion chamber adding even more air
> immediately cleaned up the smoke. Now if we could only do this without a
> fan!
>
> Looks to me that a natural draft stove will not smoke if the operator
does
> not feed in too much wood but a fan allows the operator to be considerably
> more cavalier. If the fan is reliable the chimney can be gotten rid of and
> efficiency rises higher. Leaving a chimney above the fire lets the stove
> function pretty well when the fan ceases to create its magic.
>
> Best,
>
> Dean
>
>
>
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From Anonymous Tue Nov 26 17:31:39 2002
From: Anonymous (Anonymous)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:55 2004
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <93ff16d02c8097080b34b7809514b0e0@NO-ID-FOUND.mhonarc.org>

Are there any other specifications or features which you feel would be important
in sourcing an "ideal hand cranked blower for a stove?"

Possibly there is a need for a family of such fans.... "small", "medium", and
"large". What are your thoughts on the range of sizes that should be provided?

Are there any "Price constraints" that must be met? Obviously, if the end users
can only afford to pay $1 per unit, the options are very much limited, in
comparison to the case where the end user could reasonably afford to pay say $5
or $10 or $20.

I would appreciate any comments that would permit me to put together a suitable
specification, so that my friend could search out China for a source of suitable
blowers.

Kindest regards,

Kevin Chisholm

Tom Reed wrote:

> Dear All:
>
> On my visit to Paul Anderson last month he showed me a hand powered squirrel
> cage blower made in China that he had purchased in SA for ~ $1. Worked
> quite well for starting fires, augmenting woodgas stoves etc. It was black
> plastic and about 20 cm long by 10 cm high.
>
> Does anyone else know of this device and where I could see it on the web or
> buy one?
>
> TOM REED
>
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From Anonymous Tue Nov 26 17:31:39 2002
From: Anonymous (Anonymous)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:55 2004
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <a0b2cc38aa4b0d691880f6cbbfeb429e@NO-ID-FOUND.mhonarc.org>

Incidentally I took manipulation of the changing offgas cv
characteristics to be a feature of the Dasifier. In essence the
warming up phase is whilst the biomass is refined to charcoal which
then is able to reach the higher temperature required for smelting.

I fancy using it in a rural brick kiln as we have a tile manufacture
near my home that still has a kiln which was fired with faggots, then
coal and currently natural gas.
>
>(Is this potentially a larger-volume "gasifier" -- loose use of the term?)

I personally do not think I would term it a gasifier, though the
different stages of primary and secondary combustion are plain to see.
I can send a jpeg of it operating but it is a bit off topic for this
list.

AJH

From Anonymous Tue Nov 26 17:31:53 2002
From: Anonymous (Anonymous)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:15 2004
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <d41d522ecbd8a1b58226f9a818c46ab2@NO-ID-FOUND.mhonarc.org>

Nice idea, and often the drive gear is two speed, hard work from my
memories of jacking them back up when they had settled in the ground.

AJH

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From Anonymous Tue Nov 26 17:31:54 2002
From: Anonymous (Anonymous)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:17 2004
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <d41d8cd98f00b204e9800998ecf8427e@NO-ID-FOUND.mhonarc.org>

Oil as an Alternative Fuel
Joshua and Kaia Tickell
=A319=2E95=2C Ecologic Books=2C 1999=2C ISBN=3A 0966461614
This book=2C packed with photographs=2C graphs and diagrams=2C provides =

concise=2C easy to understand instructions for running a diesel engine =

on vegetable oil=2E It can be bought from any good bookshop =

Websites

There are many websites dedicated to making biodiesel=2C most from =

America=2E Here are just some of them=2E =

journeytoforever=2Eorg/biofuel=2Ehtml
Provides information on everything from biodiesel and organic =

gardening to solar cookers=2E =

www=2Eeugenebiosource=2Eorg
Eugene BioSource is dedicated to the education=2C research=2C and =

development of regionally-based energy derived from contemporary =

biological sources=2E =

www=2Eveggievan=2Eorg
Website of the authors of the book=2C From the Fryer to the Fuel Tank=2C =

and includes the video that accompanies the book=2E =

www=2Eafdc=2Edoe=2Egov/altfuel/biodiesel=2Ehtml =

Glossary

Catalyst=3A A catalyst is a substance that starts a reaction between =

other substances=2E In making biodiesel=2C sodium hydroxide (lye) or =

potassium hydroxide can be used=2E The amount of catalyst used in the =

biodiesel reaction depends on the pH of the vegetable oil=2E A =

successful biodiesel reaction depends on the ability to measure the pH =

of the oil=2E =

Free fatty acids=3A Fats and oils are often called fatty acids because =

they are acidic=2E Used vegetable oil is more acidic than new oil =

because it has been heated=2E It is important to remove free fatty acids =

to stop the oil from solidifying=2E To eliminate them=2C a catalyst is =

used to neutralise the free fatty acids=2E More catalyst needs to be =

used the greater the acidity of the oil=2E =

Glycerin=3A Glycerin is a neutral=2C sweet-tasting=2C colourless=2C thick=
=

liquid that freezes to a gummy paste and which has a high boiling =

point=2E Glycerin can be dissolved in water or alcohol=2C but not oils=2E=
=

Glycerin has more than 1=2C500 known end uses=2C including many =

applications as an ingredient or processing aid in cosmetics=2C =

toiletries=2C personal care=2C drugs=2C and food products=2E =

Titration=3A A titration is a reaction between the catalyst and the =

vegetable oil to neutralise the free fatty acids=2E When the pH value of =

diluted vegetable oil rises significantly=2C free fatty acids will be =

neutralised (a pH of around 8 or 9)=2E =

Vegetable oil=3A Vegetable oils contain concentrated energy from the =

sun=2E There are many different vegetable oils that can be used to make =

biodiesel=2C including palm=2C coconut=2C rapeseed=2C peanut=2C sunflower=
=2C =

soybean and corn (maize)=2E The main advantage of vegetable oil is that =

it takes as little as a few months to grow from seed=2E =

This document is an output from a project funded by the UK Department =

for International Development (DFID) and the European Commission (EC) =

for the benefit of developing countries=2E The views expressed are not =

necessarily those of DFID or the EC=2E =

Acknowledgements

ITDG would like to thank Rachel Fellows at ASDA for providing =

information on the project=2E =

TVE/ITDG gratefully acknowledge support for the HANDS ON programmes =

from the UK=27s Department for International Development (DFID)=2C the =

European Commission (EC)=2C the UN Foundation and UNDP/The Equator =

Initiative in collaboration with the Government of Canada=2C IDRC=2C IUCN=
=2C =

BrasilConnects and the Nature Conservancy=2E =

which report that the chain of supermarkets ASDA is using restaurants =

oil to power its fleet of vehicles=2E Please this cutting I got from =

their wensite=2E
--------------------------------------------------------------
=

Series 3=3A
FUEL FOR THOUGHT
FUNDING THE FUTURE

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
---------

Series 2 =

Series 1 =

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
---------

Hands On en fran=E7ais =

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
---------

Search Hands On =

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
---------

Hands On home page =

Donuts for Diesel=2C UK
Introduction

Fuel energy on a large=2C useable scale is available only from fossil =

sources=2E These sources are finite and when burned cause pollution that =

damages the environment=2E The need to reduce global warming and harness =

sustainable energy has led to a search for alternative fuel sources=2E =

Hydrogen and bio-fuels such as alcohols and biodiesel are being made =

from sustainable agricultural crops=2C producing valuable by-products in =

the process=2E =

Biodiesel is a renewable fuel that can be manufactured in the kitchen =

using vegetable oil or waste fat from restaurants and canteens=2E Making =

biodiesel from waste fat is an alternative means of disposing of a =

waste product that would otherwise be sent to landfill sites=2C which =

are growing at an unsustainable rate=2E Biodiesel is safe=2C =

biodegradable=2C and better for the environment than petroleum diesel=2E =

One of the main sources of the air pollution that causes global =

warming is exhaust smoke from diesel engines=2E Biodiesel has lower =

carbon dioxide (CO2) emissions=2C it is non-toxic and it reduces serious =

air pollutants such as particulates=2C carbon monoxide and hydrocarbons=2E=
=

One UK supermarket chain=2C Asda=2C is doing its bit for sustainable wast=
e =

management by taking the waste fat from its canteens=2C restaurants and =

rotisseries and turning it into a cleaner biodiesel fuel which will =

soon to be used in Asda=27s fleet of trucks=2C transporting produce aroun=
d =

the country=2E =

Sustainable Waste Management

In the UK=2C Asda produces between 50 and 90 million litres of waste =

cooking oil every year=2C while its lorries clock up around 100 million =

road miles each year=2E Individually=2C these factors can cause damage to=
=

the environment through landfill waste and CO2 emissions=2C but together =

they provide an environmentally friendly solution=2E Trials undertaken =

showed that emissions from using biodiesel are 20=96 40 per cent lower =

than those from low sulphur diesel (LSD) and 10=9629 per cent lower than =

emissions from ultra low sulphur diesel (ULSD)=2E Two Asda lorries have =

already begun testing the fuel on the road and it is hoped that many =

more will follow=2E =

Biodiesel

Biodiesel can be used in any diesel engine with few or no =

modifications=2E Although biodiesel does not contain petroleum=2C the two=
=

fuels can be blended successfully=2E Blends of 20 per cent biodiesel =

with 80 per cent petroleum diesel (B20) can be used in unmodified =

diesel engines=2C or biodiesel can be used in its pure form (B100)=2C =

although engine modifications are required to avoid maintenance and =

performance problems=2C and more frequent cleaning may be necessary=2E =

Biodiesel is virtually identical to traditional petro-diesel in terms =

of performance and fuel consumption (mileage)=2C and has many =

advantages=3A =

It has a much higher flashpoint than petro-diesel=2C making it safer to =

store=2C handle and use=2E =

It is less toxic if ingested or spilt=2E =

It requires no specialised dispensing or storage equipment=2E =

It is more lubricating than diesel fuel=2C which can increase the life =

of an engine=2E =

Biodiesel is much better for the environment=2C too=2E =

Biodiesel is more biodegradable=2E Neat biodiesel degrades as fast as =

sugar and an 80/20 per cent petro/bio blend degrades twice as fast as =

pure petro- diesel=2E =

Substituting 1 tonne of biodiesel for petro-diesel prevents 3 tonnes =

of carbon dioxide from entering the atmosphere=2E =

Biodiesel use reduces gas emissions by up to 55 per cent=2E =

How is it Made=3F

Biodiesel is made through a chemical process called =

transesterification=2E Fats and oils are chemically reacted with an =

alcohol to produce chemical compounds known as fatty acid methyl =

esters=2E Biodiesel is the name given to these esters when they are =

intended for use as fuel=2E =

A vegetable oil molecule is made up of three esters attached to a =

molecule of glycerin=2E To make biodiesel=2C the esters in vegetable oil =

are separated from the glycerin=2E =

During the process=2C the glycerin component of vegetable oil is =

replaced with an alcohol=2E Either ethanol or methanol can be used=2E =

Ethanol can be made from sugar cane=2C cassava=2C or grains such as corn =

(maize) or sorghum=2C and methanol can be made from coal=2C natural gas o=
r =

wood=2E Although methanol produces a more stable biodiesel reaction=2C it=
=

is more dangerous and can be fatal if swallowed=2E Ethanol is considered =

to produce a superior grade of fuel=2C though it is more expensive to =

buy=2E =

Biodiesel can be made at home or in schools=2C provided that the right =

supervision is available=2E Understanding the necessary safety =

precautions before attempting to use the chemicals involved is very =

important=2E =

Please note=3A Due to the potential hazards associated with producing =

biodiesel=2C the following information is not intended as a recipe=2C but=
=

simply provides a basic overview of one way to produce biodiesel on a =

small scale=2E For more detailed explanations=2C including quantities=2C =

times and temperatures=2C please consult the Further Reading section=2E =

Safety precautions

The essence of transesterification safety is proper handling and =

storage of components and maintenance of equipment=2E =

If you are intending to make biodiesel you should first read more =

widely and study these safety rules=3A =

Pay attention to detail and be patient=2E =

Avoid working quickly=3B work at a leisurely place and do not under any =

circumstances handle chemicals under the influence of alcohol or =

drugs=2E =

Always wear proper safety equipment=2E =

Store all components out of reach of children and away from heat and =

open fire=2E =

Never smoke within the working area=2E =

Clean up spilled chemicals and fats promptly and completely=2E =

Use your equipment according to the manufacturer=27s recommendations=2E =

Be sure to strictly follow the instructions given by the chemical =

manufacturers=2E =

Equipment and materials

The best approach to making biodiesel is to start off small and learn =

about what is involved=2E This helps in working out the correct amounts =

of chemicals such as lye to use per litre of vegetable oil=2E The =

following equipment is recommended to make a small batch of biodiesel =

using a blender (which must not be used for food preparation)=3A =

a clean workspace such as a laboratory=2C garage or workshop=3B =

scales sensitive to at least 1 gram=3B =

litmus paper or a pH meter (pH measures the acidity of a substance)=3B =

a blender with a glass container=3B =

safety equipment such as goggles=2C gloves=2C protective clothing=2C eye =

wash and vinegar (to neutralise spilt chemicals)=3B =

lye=2C also known as sodium hydroxide or caustic soda=2C used as a =

catalyst=3B =

methanol or ethanol stored in a fuel container=3B =

used cooking oil=3B and =

other equipment such as beakers=2C paper towels=2C glass container and a =

small pump or ladle=2E =

Procedure

Determine the amount of catalyst (lye) needed for the batch of oil=2E =

Measure the quantity of methanol=2C lye and vegetable oil=2E =

Dissolve lye into methanol by mixing for up to 5 minutes=2E =

Mix this with vegetable oil in a blender for 15 minutes=2E =

Allow glycerin to settle at the bottom of the blender=2E =

Separate the glycerin from the biodiesel after 8 hours=2E =

Clean up by properly storing leftover chemicals in clearly labelled =

bottles and cleaning all equipment=2E Do not use blender for food! =

Figure 1=2E Procedure for making biodiesel=2E Based on diagram by Tickell=

The Future of Biodiesel

Biodiesel offers an unrivalled range of environmental benefits =

compared with alternative transport fuels=2E It is sustainable and =

renewable=3B it is safely biodegradable=3B it is much better in terms of =

greenhouse gas emissions than fossil fuels=3B it offers scope for =

recycling waste oils=3B it recycles carbon=3B and it produces far fewer =

local air pollutants than petroleum diesel=2E This renewable source of =

energy also contributes to local development as biodiesel is produced =

domestically and not imported from other countries=2E Development of =

biodiesel industries could strengthen domestic=2C and particularly rural =

economies=2E =

Biodiesel is becoming ever more popular with governments looking to =

reduce harmful emissions and help the environment=2E France is the =

world=27s biggest producer of biodiesel and its use in all diesel =

engines is required by law=2E In America=2C the US Postal Service uses =

biodiesel in all its fleet of vehicles=2E The European Commission=27s (EC=
) =

Green Paper has the objective of substituting 20 per cent of fuel =

energy by alternative fuels such as biodiesel by the year 2020=2E =

Please Note=3A In the UK=2C it is illegal to use untaxed biodiesel in you=
r =

engine for road use under Customs and Excise law=2E For those who wish =

to use biodiesel=2C it is advised that you contact us for a registered =

list of suppliers and garages in the UK=2E =

For more information on Asda=27s biodiesel scheme=2C please contact=3A

Public Relations
ASDA
Asda House=2C Southbank
Great Wilson Street
Leeds LS11 5AD
United Kingdom

Tel=3A 0113 241 8857
Fax=3A 0113 241 8015 =

General information on biodiesel

Canadian Renewable Fuels Association (CRFA)
31 Adelaide Street East
P=2EO=2E Box 398 =

Toronto =

Ontario M5C 2J8
Canada

Tel=3A (416) 304-1324
Fax=3A (416) 304-1335

The CRFA is a non-profit organisation mandated to promote renewable =

bio-fuels (ethanol=2C biodiesel) for automotive transportation through =

consumer awareness and government liaison activities=2E =

See also

http://sol.crest.org/renewables/sen/sept96/stove.html

AJH

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From lanny at roman.net Sat Nov 2 17:01:21 2002
From: lanny at roman.net (Lanny Henson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:23 2004
Subject: Lanny's Camp Fire Stove mod #2
Message-ID: <002301c282f5$a8590580$43387f41@oemcomputer>

To improve the efficiency I added a two piece
burner and a fiberglass fabric wrap to the outer shell (bucket).The burner
consist of a piece of 4x4" x8" long duct and a piece of 4x6" x8" long duct.
Sticks are fed in from the 4" sq end and the fire burns in the 4x6" end.
Secondary combustion happens in the 2x4" x3" long section. Check out the flames
blasting out of the secondary combustion zone even without the pot in place.
Without the pot there is only about 9" of draft. With the pot in place to seal
the circuit there is 48" inches of draft. Once there are a few hot coals even
not so dry wood seems to burn clean. I think this burner design has
potential.
<A
href="http://www.lanny.us/campfs2.html">http://www.lanny.us/campfs2.html
Lanny

From lanny at roman.net Sun Nov 3 09:44:19 2002
From: lanny at roman.net (Lanny Henson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:23 2004
Subject: Test
Message-ID: <00be01c28381$c4d97280$6d387f41@oemcomputer>

Test, I
am not getting stoves mail except for my own note.
Lanny

From andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com Sun Nov 3 11:02:15 2002
From: andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com (AJH)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:23 2004
Subject: Test
In-Reply-To: <00be01c28381$c4d97280$6d387f41@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <ntvasuoirjst6mnel5e7bvic41uanjsv8t@4ax.com>

On Sun, 3 Nov 2002 13:41:27 -0800, "Lanny Henson" <lanny@roman.net>
wrote:

>Test, I am not getting stoves mail except for my own note.
>Lanny

It's OK I' still here ;-)

AJH

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From Gavin at roseplac.worldonline.co.uk Sun Nov 3 11:04:39 2002
From: Gavin at roseplac.worldonline.co.uk (Gavin Gulliver-Goodall)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:23 2004
Subject: Test
In-Reply-To: <00be01c28381$c4d97280$6d387f41@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <MABBJLGAAFJBOBCKKPMGOEGGCHAA.Gavin@roseplac.worldonline.co.uk>

<span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Good stove
lanny,

<span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>My thought
is that the flame from the sec air pipe should be at the opposite side of the bucket
from the flue opening.- This would make the flue pipe sit on top of the sec air
hole.

<span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Unless you
baffle so the flames and flue gases have to travel the long way round the pot- which
is extra metalwork

<span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>I think
youre not getting messages as nobodys posting

<span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Except me!

<span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Gavin

<font
color=navy face=Arial>Gavin
Gulliver-Goodall<span
style='font-family:Arial;color:navy;mso-color-alt:windowtext'>

<span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy;font-weight:bold'>3G
Energi,<span style='font-family:
Arial;color:navy;mso-color-alt:windowtext;font-weight:bold'>

<span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'>E mail
Gavin@3genergi.co.uk <mailto:Gavin@3genergi.co.uk> <font
size=2 color=navy><span style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;
color:navy;mso-color-alt:windowtext'>

<span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'>The contents of
this email and any attachments are the property of 3G Energi<span
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> and are intended for the confidential
use of the named recipient(s) only.
They may be legally privileged and should not be communicated to or
relied upon by any person without our express written consent.<span
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> If you are not an addressee please
notify us immediately at the address above or by email at Gavin@3genergi.co.uk
<mailto:Gavin@3genergi.co.uk>. Any files attached to this email will have
been checked with virus detection software before transmission.<span
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> However, you should carry out your own
virus check before opening any attachment.<span style="mso-spacerun:
yes"> 3G Energi accepts no liability for any loss or damage that
may be caused by software viruses.<span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;color:navy;mso-color-alt:
windowtext'>

<font size=2 color=black
face=Tahoma>-----Original
Message-----
From: Lanny Henson
[mailto:lanny@roman.net]
Sent: Sunday, November 03, 2002
21:41
To: stoves@crest.org
Subject: Test

<font size=2 color=black
face=Arial>Test, I
am not getting stoves mail except for my own note.<font
color=black>

<font size=3 color=black
face=Arial>Lanny<font
color=black>

From kchisholm at ca.inter.net Sun Nov 3 13:36:24 2002
From: kchisholm at ca.inter.net (Kevin Chisholm)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:23 2004
Subject: Lanny's Camp Fire Stove mod #2
In-Reply-To: <002301c282f5$a8590580$43387f41@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <002601c28389$50951160$859a0a40@kevin>

Dear Lanny

Insulation of the stove combustion area is a good thing, to
ensure that the products of combustion are at a high enough temperature, to
permit combustion to go to completion. However, insulating the outside of the
steel bucket will dramatically shorten its life. For extended life, it would be
far better to have the insulation on the INSIDE of the combustion area. This
would, of course, require a different insulation material.

Kindest regards,

Kevin Chisholm
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
----- Original Message -----
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black">From:
Lanny Henson
To: <A title=stoves@crest.org
href="mailto:stoves@crest.org">stoves@crest.org
Sent: Sunday, November 03, 2002 12:58
AM
Subject: Lanny's Camp Fire Stove mod
#2

To improve the efficiency I added a two piece
burner and a fiberglass fabric wrap to the outer shell (bucket).The burner
consist of a piece of 4x4" x8" long duct and a piece of 4x6" x8" long duct.
Sticks are fed in from the 4" sq end and the fire burns in the 4x6" end.
Secondary combustion happens in the 2x4" x3" long section. Check out the
flames blasting out of the secondary combustion zone even without the pot in
place. Without the pot there is only about 9" of draft. With the pot in place
to seal the circuit there is 48" inches of draft. Once there are a few hot
coals even not so dry wood seems to burn clean. I think this burner design has
potential.
<A
href="http://www.lanny.us/campfs2.html">http://www.lanny.us/campfs2.html
Lanny

From ronallarson at qwest.net Sun Nov 3 14:49:34 2002
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:23 2004
Subject: Test
In-Reply-To: <ntvasuoirjst6mnel5e7bvic41uanjsv8t@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <NGBBKDEHILILFNJPHEFIEEKPCDAA.ronallarson@qwest.net>

Lanny:

Sorry for not getting you a response. It is interesting to see the various
changes you are trying. A few more questions:

1. Can you give any report on the possible thermal and economic value of
the fiberglass outer blanket?

2. What was the cost of the blanket? (Per square meter or square foot?)

3. Any way to measure the outermost temperatures before and after the
blanket? Can you now touch the outer surface?

4. Any difficulty in applying the blanket?

5. Would you recommend the blanket?

On the two ducts:

1. What former use, material, and what cost for the ducts?

2. It seems like you have a pretty large air opening (4" x 6") at the ash
exit point. Have you tried placing sort of a baffle there that could do some
temperature controlling by controlling the air entry?

3. Gavin asked several questions. These are a follow-up:
a. All of your exhaust gases are now traveling up past the pot and then
travel down to the stove pipe connection point - right?
b. Is there any way of knowing (say by outside temperatures - before you
put the blanket on) as to how uniform the exhaust gas flow was
circumferentially? When you have vigorous boiling - does it occur more or
less uniformly circumferentially?
c. What difference did you note in performance with this added piece of
"baffle metal"? (might be able to test with the same amount of wood - and
see how much water you could boil away). I am not aware of anyone else
reporting on a stove with this sort of exhaust flow baffle - anyone else
have a report?
d. We have talked a long time ago about the proper separation distance for
what we might call a convection enhancer. Remind us of that separation now
and how easy it might be to vary that separation and get some more
experimental tests. I think Dean Still was doing something similar and
wonder what he has found?

e. On Gavin's question about the location of the flame: Not important if
the exhaust gases redistribute themselves (item 3b). But could you put some
extra high holes in the larger ductwork so the flame comes out more
uniformly? More work and cost - but maybe not too much, if performance
improves.
F. You are getting some nice preheating of the main air supply as it flows
over the hot coals. Is there some way maybe to get that air to pass over a
hotter surface that might help improve efficiency? I'm sort of thinking of
loosening the fiberglass and letting as much air as possible travel between
the pail and the fiberglass - somewhat like Crispin is doing. This would
necessitate a full door on the ash removal port and a fancy way of getting
that air inside. Maybe not worth the expense - but maybe you see another
way?

4. Also to acknowledge Kevin's question today - on insulation placement
and lifetime - and look forward to that answer also. I have been surprised
how little degradation I see on the ordinary tin cans that are being
recycled as stove - but know of no lifetime tests. Anyone?

Other - You are gaining some cost advantage by not having a bottom - the
coals and all are sitting on the ground. Any reason to think that is not a
good idea? How often do you think the set-up should be changed in location?

Thanks for doing and reporting these experiments for us. You have several
clever additions coming along - especially the flow up past the pot, then
down again and out a chimney. Can you make some more claims of the virtues
of the two pieces of ductwork? Please continue to keep us informed on your
progress.

Part of my delay is working hard on the subject of US hydrogen-renewables
policy. In the process of doing research I came across a year 1999 US
government policy document that had several pages on stoves - which I have
never seen before. Coming soon.

Ron

-----Original Message-----
From: AJH [mailto:andrew.heggie@dtn.ntl.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 03, 2002 12:58 PM
To: Lanny Henson
Cc: stoves@crest.org
Subject: Re: Test

On Sun, 3 Nov 2002 13:41:27 -0800, "Lanny Henson" <lanny@roman.net>
wrote:

>Test, I am not getting stoves mail except for my own note.
>Lanny

It's OK I' still here ;-)

AJH

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From ronallarson at qwest.net Sun Nov 3 15:15:19 2002
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:24 2004
Subject: an outdated - but possibly useful - US stoves policy document
Message-ID: <NGBBKDEHILILFNJPHEFIKEKPCDAA.ronallarson@qwest.net>

Stovers -
This just mentioned in the response to Lanny. Lanny's is the type of work
that should be funded (and then demonstrated) by the ideas in the following.
Fortunately we have many other similar ideas that could benefit if the US
(or UN or other countries) got interested in this type of effort (and the
climate change aspects are not even mentioned in the following).

The following is about 1% of a much larger US energy R&D policy document
(with heavy international cooperation tones - which is very rare these
days). As near as I can tell this several pages never got turned into
funding - but I think it almost did. It was signed off on by a prestigious
panel of US Engineers and Scientists - and may have had something to do with
the small amount of new "stoves" (health) funding that was announced by the
US at Johannesburg. I include it because it hasn't been previously
mentioned on this list, because someone trying for stove funding from the US
government might be able to use some part of it, because there may be some
new money available for exactly this, because bilateral agreements with
(some) other governments (and maybe NGOs) are now in vogue, and because
nothing much has changed since all of the following was written.

The full "Powerful Partnerships" report is at
http://www.ostp.gov/html/p2epage.html. The full report is the 4th bullet
and is 1.3 MB to download. A lot of good material - I am including the only
stuff on stoves.

POWERFUL PARTNERSHIPS:
THE FEDERAL ROLE IN INTERNATIONAL COOPERATION
ON ENERGY INNOVATION
A REPORT FROM THE
PRESIDENT’S COMMITTEE OF ADVISORS ON SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY
PANEL ON INTERNATIONAL COOPERATION IN
ENERGY RESEARCH, DEVELOPMENT, DEMONSTRATION, AND DEPLOYMENT
JUNE 1999

From Anonymous Tue Nov 26 17:32:00 2002
From: Anonymous (Anonymous)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:24 2004
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <d41d8cd98f00b204e9800998ecf8427e@NO-ID-FOUND.mhonarc.org>

Improved Cookstoves

Traditional cooking methods using an open fire or charcoal stove generate
high levels of fuel use and smoke, causing severe environmental,
public-health, and social problems for vast numbers of households (and women
in particular) in rural areas of poorer developing countries. Estimates of
the annual number of premature deaths due to acute respiratory infections
resulting substantially from indoor air pollution, in large part due to
smoke from traditional biomass stoves, range up to two million globally.38
The problem of traditional cookstoves and cooking fuels, and the serious
environmental, health, and social problems they cause, should not be
overlooked. The most important energy service in rural areas of developing
countries today is cooking food.

Traditional stoves/fuels are only 10-20 percent efficient and produce high
levels of smoke, while improved stoves using traditional biofuels can
improve this efficiency to around 20-30 percent.39 Higher incomes and
reliable access to fuel supplies enable people to switch to modern stoves
and cleaner fuels such as kerosene, LPG, and electricity. Kerosene, LPG, and
electric stoves can improve cooking efficiency to 40-60 percent, greatly
reduce smoke, and improve standards of living and public health in
developing countries, although at higher monetary costs. But biomass is, due
to its low cost and availability, likely to remain the main cooking fuel in
rural areas of developing countries for many years to come. Improved biomass
stoves may be the most practical option for cutting smoke exposure, reducing
fuel waste, and cutting fuel collection burdens for large numbers of poor
households in the foreseeable future.

38 Smith et al. (1999). See also Kammen et al. (1999).
39 Baldwin (1986), OTA (1990), OTA (1992), Reddy et al. (1997).

Page 4-14 (154/256)

Previous efforts to develop and disseminate improved biomass stoves have
met with mixed
success.40 China has implemented the most sweeping and successful improved
stove program in the
world. Around 130 million improved stoves, mostly biomass stoves, were
installed in rural areas during 1982-92, meaning over half of rural
households in China obtained an improved stove. Although there were problems
with quality control and durability in the beginning, these problems were
largely overcome and most stoves have saved fuel, improved indoor air
quality, and remained in use.41 Lessons from the Chinese national program
include targeting regions with adequate interest as well as technical,
financial, and managerial capability; limiting government subsidies (about
15 percent of total stove cost in the case of China); producing key stove
parts centrally; independently testing and monitoring to evaluate
performance; and working with rural enterprises for stove dissemination.42

Kenya also has implemented relatively successful stove programs both for
urban areas and rural areas with improved charcoal and wood stoves,
respectively, disseminating over 700,000 stoves by the early 1990s. Lessons
from this experience include the importance of central production of key
components such as ceramic liners, use of small enterprises to produce and
market stoves in areas where users can afford to pay, use of women’s groups
for stove dissemination in rural areas, and tailoring designs to meet local
conditions while maintaining testing and quality control.43

In contrast to the China and Kenya experience, improved stove programs in
many other countries have met with much less success for a wide range of
technical, economic, social, and institutional reasons.44 This has resulted
in cuts in financial support for improved biomass stoves by many bilateral
aid organizations. Improving stove efficiency and cutting down indoor smoke
levels is, however, feasible and worth seeking. For households that purchase
fuel, the fuel savings can pay off the cost of the stove in as little as a
few months. For rural households that gather fuel, time spent on this task
can be significantly reduced, and other benefits provided.

Technical difficulties abound in attempting to improve biomass stove
performance. For example:

· Stoves which burn biomass directly under the pot produce smoke because
the pot is always at low (boiling) temperature, which quenches the
combustion of volatiles rising from the fire, creating smoke.

· Household-scale biomass gasification units have difficulty turning down
the heat quickly and/or without extinguishing the gasification process.

· Village scale gasifiers face difficulties in setting up the pipeline
distribution structure, avoiding gas leaks, and metering gas usage. There
are promising technical routes, but R&D is needed to develop them in a
low-cost, low polluting, efficient package. Alternatively, complementary
approaches such as the generation of liquid fuels from biomass may have
potential, as discussed in Chapter 5. 45

40 Barnes et al. (1994).
41 Smith et al. (1993), Smith (1993).
42 Ibid.
43 Karakezi and Turyareeba (1995)
44 Barnes (1994), Reddy et al. (1997)
45 Other approaches also face difficulties. Charcoal stoves are being widely
disseminated in east Africa, but conversion of wood to charcoal wastes
typically half or more of the original energy in the wood. Solar stoves may
offer some benefits, but only work during sunny daylight hours.

Page 4-15 (155/256)
Other Important Initiatives: Developing and Disseminating Improved
Cookstoves

Goal

To support cooperative efforts in the development and dissemination of
low-cost, low-polluting, and efficient cookstoves fueled by renewable energy
resources. These stoves would improve public health and the quality of life
mainly in rural areas of Africa and Asia.

U.S. Actions

The United States would support cooperative efforts with foreign
counterparts to:

(1) Research and develop low-cost, low-polluting, high-efficiency cookstoves
fueled by renewable
energy resources, particularly biomass and biomass-derived fuels (see
Chapter 5). This research
should be closely coupled to field demonstrations to ensure that stoves
fully meet user needs and
requirements. Emphasis should be on stoves that can be rapidly produced with
high levels of
intrinsic quality control.

(2) Build human and institutional capacity in stove RD3 in key developing
countries;

(3) Leverage large-scale deployment of these high-performance stoves through
the market.

Elaboration

PCAST recommends that USAID, DOE, and EPA offer support and assistance to
improved stove
R&D and dissemination programs throughout Asia, Africa, and other regions
where cookstove-related
health and environment problems exist. This should include linking
universities with substantial
technical expertise and NGOs with field expertise with developing country
counterparts. Activities should be responsive to local needs and informed by
the lessons learned in previous efforts to design and disseminate improved
cookstoves. We suggest that USAID lead this initiative, but that both DOE
and EPA contribute funding and expertise, as appropriate. U.S. agencies
might consider funding South-South collaborations so that successful efforts
by countries like China and Kenya can be replicated elsewhere.

This initiative would be closely coordinated with other nations and
development agencies supporting improved biomass stove efforts such as the
German assistance agency GTZ. At a minimum, funders need to coordinate and
avoid duplication and competition, jointly developing and implementing
strategies where possible. In addition, the U.S. government would encourage
the GEF, World Bank, and regional development banks to contribute to efforts
for improved stoves, where appropriate, including making available finance
through effective rural micro-credit schemes like the Grameen Bank in
Bangladesh.

The primary U.S. interest here is humanitarian—helping to address the
severe health, environmental, and social impacts of traditional biomass
cooking in developing countries. Reducing indoor smoke and highly elevated
levels of particulates and other pollutants could reduce acute respiratory
illness found largely in women and children in developing countries, as well
as premature death linked to breathing elevated levels of smoke.

I am not going to give all the references - as it is too long. But many
will recognize those from Smith, Kammen and others. The following is still
one of my favorites - from a fellow who had something to do with this
section I guess:

Baldwin 1986: Samuel F. Baldwin, Biomass Stoves: Engineering Design,
Development, and
Dissemination (Rosslyn, VA and Princeton, NJ: Volunteers in Technical
Assistance and Center for
Energy and Environmental Studies, Princeton University, 1986).

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From lanny at roman.net Sun Nov 3 19:07:37 2002
From: lanny at roman.net (Lanny Henson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:24 2004
Subject: Lanny's Simple Camp Stove Mod #2
In-Reply-To: <NGBBKDEHILILFNJPHEFIEEKPCDAA.ronallarson@qwest.net>
Message-ID: <018001c283d0$72cbf2c0$6d387f41@oemcomputer>

Ron: You have ask excellent questions as usual. See my responses below.
Lanny
----- Original Message -----
From: Ron Larson <ronallarson@qwest.net>
To: <andrew.heggie@dtn.ntl.com>; Lanny Henson <lanny@roman.net>;
<Gavin@roseplac.worldonline.co.uk>; <kchisholm@ca.inter.net>
Cc: <stoves@crest.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 03, 2002 3:51 PM
Subject: RE: Test

> Lanny:
>
> Sorry for not getting you a response. It is interesting to see the various
> changes you are trying. A few more questions:
>
> 1. Can you give any report on the possible thermal and economic value of
> the fiberglass outer blanket?
>
> 2. What was the cost of the blanket? (Per square meter or square foot?)
>
> 3. Any way to measure the outermost temperatures before and after the
> blanket? Can you now touch the outer surface?
>
> 4. Any difficulty in applying the blanket?
>
> 5. Would you recommend the blanket?
>
I do not know how much the fiberglass blanket helped because I added the
burner and blanket at the same time. I mostly used it to salvage one more
use/modification out of the bucket. It had a lot experimental holes in it
and the fabric sealed up the leaks. My gut feeling is that it is too thin to
help much but may work as an outer shell over other insulative material. I
will try the next prototype with and without the blanket. Also the fabric
gets stiff after heating so it may also work as a liner like Kevin Chisholm
suggested. It cost about 30 cents per sq ft for the 13 ounce (per sq yard)
fabric. I also have some silica fabric which will withstand very high temps
but the fabric is fragile. http://www.auburnmfg.com/ Auburn Mfg also makes
a rewetable fiberglass fabric. You can wet it an wrap or shape it and it
stiffens when it dries.

> On the two ducts:>
> 1. What former use, material, and what cost for the ducts?

For prototyping I made the burner (two ducts) from 18 ga steel. I plan to
try two cans on the next one to keep the parts simple.

> 2. It seems like you have a pretty large air opening (4" x 6") at the ash
> exit point. Have you tried placing sort of a baffle there that could do
some
> temperature controlling by controlling the air entry?

Yes I have a snap on end cap for both ends that cover about two thirds
maximum and can be slid up and down
for adjustment. They did not seem to help much because the flow is
restricted at other points in the stove. I keep the fuel duct full of sticks
to block most of the air from that side. The 4x6 ash exit opening leads to
the 2x4" exhaust opening and is restricted at that point.

> 3. Gavin asked several questions. These are a follow-up:
> a. All of your exhaust gases are now traveling up past the pot and then
> travel down to the stove pipe connection point - right?

Yes up the sleeve and then out into the outer gap where the exhaust pipe
connects. This part made the most noticeable difference. The exhaust was
much cooler and slower.

> b. Is there any way of knowing (say by outside temperatures - before you
> put the blanket on) as to how uniform the exhaust gas flow was
> circumferentially? When you have vigorous boiling - does it occur more
or
> less uniformly circumferentially?

After the sleeve was added the water did boil more evenly. I did close the
tab gaps on the sleeve nearest the exhaust pipe so the exhaust would not
short cycle. The flow seemed fairly uniform but I will rotate the burner
like Galvin said.

> c. What difference did you note in performance with this added piece of
> "baffle metal"? (might be able to test with the same amount of wood - and
> see how much water you could boil away). I am not aware of anyone else
> reporting on a stove with this sort of exhaust flow baffle - anyone else
> have a report?
> d. We have talked a long time ago about the proper separation distance
for
> what we might call a convection enhancer. Remind us of that separation now
> and how easy it might be to vary that separation and get some more
> experimental tests. I think Dean Still was doing something similar and
> wonder what he has found?

I believe that Dean and others found that about 1/2 or 3/8" was best. I
would think that this gap should have the least amount of cross sectional
flow area which would create the highest velocity of the gasses around the
pot. I have 1/2" now but I will try 3/8" next time.

> e. On Gavin's question about the location of the flame: Not important if
> the exhaust gases redistribute themselves (item 3b). But could you put
some
> extra high holes in the larger ductwork so the flame comes out more
> uniformly? More work and cost - but maybe not too much, if performance
> improves.

Good observation, the burner is too long for the bucket and the flame is off
center of the pot. I am not sure about what do about this. I would actually
like to have a longer exhaust (2x4"x 3" long) area to allow more time for
combustion. Maybe 4 or 5" long which would make it more off center.

> F. You are getting some nice preheating of the main air supply as it
flows
> over the hot coals. Is there some way maybe to get that air to pass over
a
> hotter surface that might help improve efficiency? I'm sort of thinking
of
> loosening the fiberglass and letting as much air as possible travel
between
> the pail and the fiberglass - somewhat like Crispin is doing. This would
> necessitate a full door on the ash removal port and a fancy way of getting
> that air inside. Maybe not worth the expense - but maybe you see another
> way?

Good ideas. I will think about that.

> 4. Also to acknowledge Kevin's question today - on insulation placement
> and lifetime - and look forward to that answer also. I have been
surprised
> how little degradation I see on the ordinary tin cans that are being
> recycled as stove - but know of no lifetime tests. Anyone?
>
> Other - You are gaining some cost advantage by not having a bottom - the
> coals and all are sitting on the ground. Any reason to think that is not
a
> good idea? How often do you think the set-up should be changed in
location?

Well the stove started as an open fire topper but now it has a burner so I
may use the bucket lid for a bottom next time. Then some loose fill
insulation could be used.

> Thanks for doing and reporting these experiments for us. You have several
> clever additions coming along - especially the flow up past the pot, then
> down again and out a chimney. Can you make some more claims of the
virtues
> of the two pieces of ductwork? Please continue to keep us informed on
your
> progress.

Thanks for your interest and excellent input.
As far as virtues. This burner is easy to light and maintains a fire well
without going out. It also will burn not so dry sticks. If you accidentally
quench the flame with too much wood you can just blow on it and it heats
back up quickly.
end- Lanny

> Part of my delay is working hard on the subject of US hydrogen-renewables
> policy. In the process of doing research I came across a year 1999 US
> government policy document that had several pages on stoves - which I have
> never seen before. Coming soon.
>
>
> Ron
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: AJH [mailto:andrew.heggie@dtn.ntl.com]
> Sent: Sunday, November 03, 2002 12:58 PM
> To: Lanny Henson
> Cc: stoves@crest.org
> Subject: Re: Test
>
>
> On Sun, 3 Nov 2002 13:41:27 -0800, "Lanny Henson" <lanny@roman.net>
> wrote:
>
> >Test, I am not getting stoves mail except for my own note.
> >Lanny
>
> It's OK I' still here ;-)
>
> AJH
>
> -
> Stoves List Archives and Website:
> http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200209/
> http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
> >
> Stoves List Moderators:
> Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
> Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
>
> Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon
>
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>
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>
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From ronallarson at qwest.net Sun Nov 3 19:38:27 2002
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:24 2004
Subject: Lanny's Simple Camp Stove Mod #2
In-Reply-To: <018001c283d0$72cbf2c0$6d387f41@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <NGBBKDEHILILFNJPHEFIKELCCDAA.ronallarson@qwest.net>

Lanny:
You had one item in your response that I hadn't previously thought about -

You said:
"I would actually
like to have a longer exhaust (2x4"x 3" long) area to allow more time for
combustion. Maybe 4 or 5" long which would make it more off center."

(RWL): Mostly in the stoves we have been discussing on this list, we have
been seeing flame going straight up - and this can put a lot of soot on the
pots - unless you make the unit taller.
So, I am anxious to hear more from you and others on how to build shorter
units by increasing flame path (increasing lower in the unit, not by
increasing height). I wonder how much one loses as the radiative mechanism
is reduced also. I think we want to keep the radiative heat flow component.
Andrew Heggie has done a lot with a "cyclone" (rotating gas flow) type of
exhaust gas path - and I have seen this in some commercial combustors - both
with forced air flow.
So getting yours off center (in a different sense maybe than you meant
above) might be interesting. Might even want more than one off-center path.
Maybe even point the flames down at first to increase the path length
without increasing overall height. At one commercial combustor site that
someone gave us - there were two rotating gas flows - but counter-rotating.
You can do a lot with this that others can't because of your chimney.

Again thanks for sharing all this.

Ron

-----Original Message-----
From: Lanny Henson [mailto:lanny@roman.net]
Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 12:04 AM
To: stoves@crest.org
Subject: Re: Lanny's Simple Camp Stove Mod #2

<Snip>

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From ronallarson at qwest.net Mon Nov 4 07:29:44 2002
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:24 2004
Subject: On Terra Preta soils,fertilizer, CO2 Sequestration, coal fired power plants...and stoves
In-Reply-To: <3DC628D7.3020500@eprida.com>
Message-ID: <NGBBKDEHILILFNJPHEFIIELICDAA.ronallarson@qwest.net>

Danny (cc Mike Antal and stoves) -

1. Thanks for the update on your own work and on the terra petra work done
in Germany/Brazil.

2. I haven't had a chance to absorb everything on your site or those
valuable sites you sent us to - but here are a few questions:

a. It appears that you see a viable agricultural market for the charcoal
you are, or are hoping to be, producing. Do you see the same potential if
charcoal is produced in simple charcoal-making stoves? That is, does the
market hinge on your approach to making charcoal (you have a very nice value
for the H2).

b. Your product emphasizes the added fertilizer value when you add it to
the charcoal. Can that be done in remote areas? Only a high tech approach
possible? What are your views on applying your approach in developing
countries? Can a village scale pyrolysis - H2 plant solve the local cooking
problem as well?

c. Your lead to Christopher Schneider's experimental work was new and most
interesting. Unfortunately, there was a (blanking) double image on slide #
18 - which was the most interesting. If you have a clean version I would
appreciate it - or send this on to Christopher - for whom I have no e-mail
address. We would appreciate a letter from him on his work. Slide # 16
was really impressive - showing the growth comparison (maybe the 880%
improvement?) On Slide 10 there is reference to a 12 year old capoeira.
Could you (or Christopher) put this in terms of both kg of charcoal and area
covered? Any idea how Christopher is getting hsi charcoal and how much he
is paying? Assuming he does it locally, is he flaring? (Of course Brazil
is probably the world leader in charcoal production - so maybe there is no
problem there.)

d. Have you found any leads on how to get the charcoal imbedded deeply
into the soil cheaply (especially in developing countries)? How deep is
deep enough?

e. You don't show in your economic analysis any value in a climate change
sense for the sequestered charcoal. Any idea what that should be worth in
comparison to other means to sequester (or "store")? Or to the other
economic values in your analysis?

f. I will be writing you separately on the hydrogen production aspects of
your work. I encourage anyone else interested in listening into that dialog
to let me know.
To those who don't follow the hydrogen-from-biomass literature, Danny's
company is one of only a few receiving our DoE funds - and has done some of
the most interesting and successful work where hydrogen is the goal - not
charcoal and sequestering (storing). This is akin to gasifying - but he is
pyrolyzing - like Mike Antal.

Danny - Again, thanks for some most interesting new information.

Ron

-----Original Message-----
From: Danny Day [mailto:danny.day@eprida.com]
Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 12:59 AM
To: ronallarson@qwest.net; stoves@crest.org; mantal@hawaii.edu
Subject: On Terra Preta soils,fertilizer, CO2 Sequestration, coal fired
power plants...and stoves

cc Stoves

Ron and Mike:

I have a tremendous amount of respect for both you guys and so I was not
surprised that you knew that charcoal was a good growth media. I did
not know until one of our guys asked what did I want to do with all the
stuff growing on top of the charcoal mound.
http://www.eprida.com/hydro/anecdotal.htm (to see plants growing on a
mound of pure char produced at 500C)

The subject of this message should have been:
Fossil Fuel CO2 sequestration, hydrogen production, cooking over
charcoal, another stove design, NOx and SOx removal, farm chemical
runoff protection, nutrient reservoirs, increased soil fertility, crop
production, and a *Sequestering Fertilizer*.

I would have added Climate Change Mitigation, (except Tom Reed has
properly advised me ahead of time over breakfast a few weeks ago)
but I probably should have thrown in the kithcen sink for good measure.

So now in addition to making charcoal for the midnight shift's burger
roasts, our little biomass to hydrogen project makes fertilizer. I
thought it was a good idea so we made a pilot unit that that could
demonstate sequestering CO2, SOx and NOx from coal fired power plants...
while making hydrogen and pyrolysis charcoal based fertilizer with 18%
nitrogen. The ECOSS stands for "Enriched Carbon, an organic slow-release
sequestering" fertilizer. Well, actually thanks to Bob Evans at NREL
and James Lee at ORNL, Calvin Feik at NREL who drew the CO2
concentration curves on the whiteboard that got me concerned and
everybody else at NREL who said "pretty good idea", it works. We made
7kg or so.
http://www.eprida.com/hydro

The USDA has gotten better. Don Reicosky up at Morris MN USDA ARS is
conducting a two month greenhouse test to verify the efficacy of the
material. I called up from sunny Atlanta in the middle of the day, as I
was sending hauling 5-50 lbs buckets of "certified dirt" out to ship via
UPS and found out the temperature was somewhere well below freezing, I
asked the receptionist, "And things grow up there", "Oh, well we heat
the greenhouses", she said with the nicest Minnesota accent, "Everything
grows fine". I guess they know.

By the way, I was at a Sequestration Conference in Houston the other day
(oriented for the petroleum industry) and found out the new lingo.
They are not calling it sequestration any more. Now their language is
"storage". We are not sequestering carbon dioxide, we are storing it.
Who knows one day we may want it back? Well one thing about carbon as
char going into the ground.....You not going to go get it back....Not
very easily any way.

Here is a good link to Chris Steiner's report of the terra preta
experiment, at
http://lba.cptec.inpe.br/Presentations/Manaus2002/ChristophSteiner-Manaus200
2.pdf
which Chris produced as he lived in Brazil. Warning, it is big.

Tom (Reed), I still want a little tiny stove that makes activated
carbon. All I need is a little stainless auger about 8" long, some 1/4"
stainless tubing and ....

Well, I gues it would look kinda kluge hanging off the side of the
stove. OK, lets just forget it cooking, and we will convert it to make
activated carbon and just steam the food. Hey, you may not have pan
fried food but steamed veggies are better for you anyway, besides, what
do you want? Fried food or clean drinking water?

Anyway, maybe two stoves are what I want, cause I still like fried food.
I am from Georgia.

It has been a long time since I have been around but thought I would
send you these links for the stove community.

Danny Day

Ps: Anybody want to come spend the summer in Georgia researching either
biomass-to-hydrogen production or sequestering fertilizer. As you could
see from the link above, our folks eat pretty good, ...if you can cook
with charcoal. Hint.. Hint...ask for the night crew shift. They eat
the best. If you have an interest check out the website. We are very
friendly folk.

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From Carefreeland at aol.com Mon Nov 4 18:52:00 2002
From: Carefreeland at aol.com (Carefreeland@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:24 2004
Subject: Test
Message-ID: <109.1b4bc361.2af89946@aol.com>

> Dan's comments

> Lanny, Ron, and Kevin,
This seems like a good stove to try out one of the refractory "washes" like a fire resistant paint or plaster coating. Maybe a mix of portland cement and some fireclay would work for a thin coating. Could you maybe scratch up the metal inside of the can with course grit aluminum oxide paper to make the coating stick better?
> Ron,
I can't even imagine the metalurgic work that goes into the modern tin can today. When my Dad worked for US steel in the early ' 50's, making and coating tin cans was already a very well developed science. I suspect that the tin (and copper?) coating may be conducting heat faster than the steel in the can. By conducting heat away from the hot spots and redistributing it around the can, it can radiate away from the metal before critical temperatures are reached. The first step of heat degridation in steel is the formation of a coating of scale, which is iron I oxide I belive.
> Dan Dimiduk

From elk at wananchi.com Mon Nov 4 23:39:44 2002
From: elk at wananchi.com (elk)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:24 2004
Subject: Charcoal...... fertiliser?
Message-ID: <007801c284a6$71df6aa0$2cdafea9@42v2501>

This topic is quite coincidentally timed for
me..... just yesterday I test-fired the first charcoal briquettes we've made
from chicken litter (yes..... I'm a chicken farmer too......).

The litter is approximately 50% chicken faeces, 45%
wood shavings and 5% spilled feed. It carbonised reasonably well in our
open-kiln downdraft unit, and produced a nicely carbonised product that didn't
require milling prior to the low pressure extrusion and sun-drying- as per our
usual approach to briquetting.

We didn't weigh the raw material in or carbonised
material out for some reason, but from all appearances the conversion rate was
good- between 30 and 35% I estimate.

Boiling (evap) test results: 1000 gm in a 12"dia.
ceramic lined 'jiko' indicated that heat produced was some 80% of regular wood
charcoal- which would place it somewhere around 5,400 kcal/kg. Ash
was high at 30%. We used 5% clay and 3% molasses as binders.
Overall, a mid- to low quality product as fuel.

What WAS very noticeable was the strong ammonia
smell from the briquettes during the first 12 minutes post-ignition. There
was very little smoke. This certainly does validate the observations made
by Danny Day that nitrogen can be bound up in charcoal and add value
to it's function as a fertiliser. I can't say I quite grasped the entirety of
his work from the e-mail Ronal forwarded to the list, but it does sound
intriguing!

A question- how long would the nitrogen last in
charcoal exposed to the elements? I assume it's water soluble, whatever form
it's in.... and subject to oxidation as well? Often, when heat and/or
oxidation is involved, bio-availability is reduced. From the
experience I've gained from hanging around huge piles of waste charcoal dust,
plants do grow pretty well in charcoal, but I've never gotten the impression
that they grew better than their kin do in regular soil.

elk

--------------------------Elsen L.
Karstadelk@wananchi.com<A
href="http://www.chardust.com">www.chardust.comNairobi
Kenya

<FONT face=Arial
size=2>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ORIGINAL MESSAGE:

Ron and
Mike:I have a tremendous amount of respect for both you guys and so I
was notsurprised that you knew that charcoal was a good growth media.
I didnot know until one of our guys asked what did I want to do with all
thestuff growing on top of the charcoal mound.<A
href="http://www.eprida.com/hydro/anecdotal.htm"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3>http://www.eprida.com/hydro/anecdotal.htm<FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3> (to see plants growing on amound of
pure char produced at 500C)The subject of this message should have
been:Fossil Fuel CO2 sequestration, hydrogen production, cooking
overcharcoal, another stove design, NOx and SOx removal, farm
chemicalrunoff protection, nutrient reservoirs, increased soil fertility,
cropproduction, and a *Sequestering Fertilizer*.I would have added
Climate Change Mitigation, (except Tom Reed hasproperly advised me ahead of
time over breakfast a few weeks ago)but I probably should have thrown in the
kithcen sink for good measure.So now in addition to making charcoal for
the midnight shift's burgerroasts, our little biomass to hydrogen project
makes fertilizer. Ithought it was a good idea so we made a pilot unit
that that coulddemonstate sequestering CO2, SOx and NOx from coal fired
power plants...while making hydrogen and pyrolysis charcoal based fertilizer
with 18%nitrogen. The ECOSS stands for "Enriched Carbon, an organic
slow-releasesequestering" fertilizer. Well, actually thanks to Bob
Evans at NRELand James Lee at ORNL, Calvin Feik at NREL who drew the
CO2concentration curves on the whiteboard that got me concerned
andeverybody else at NREL who said "pretty good idea", it works. We
made7kg or so.<FONT
face="Times New Roman"
size=3>http://www.eprida.com/hydro<FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3>The USDA has gotten better. Don Reicosky up
at Morris MN USDA ARS isconducting a two month greenhouse test to verify the
efficacy of thematerial. I called up from sunny Atlanta in the middle of the
day, as Iwas sending hauling 5-50 lbs buckets of "certified dirt" out to
ship viaUPS and found out the temperature was somewhere well below freezing,
Iasked the receptionist, "And things grow up there", "Oh, well we
heatthe greenhouses", she said with the nicest Minnesota accent,
"Everythinggrows fine". I guess they know.By the way, I was at
a Sequestration Conference in Houston the other day(oriented for the
petroleum industry) and found out the new lingo. They are not
calling it sequestration any more. Now their language
is"storage". We are not sequestering carbon dioxide, we are storing
it. Who knows one day we may want it back? Well one thing about
carbon aschar going into the ground.....You not going to go get it
back....Notvery easily any way.Here is a good link to Chris
Steiner's report of the terra pretaexperiment, at<A
href="http://lba.cptec.inpe.br/Presentations/Manaus2002/ChristophSteiner-Manaus200"><FONT
face="Times New Roman"
size=3>http://lba.cptec.inpe.br/Presentations/Manaus2002/ChristophSteiner-Manaus200<FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3>2.pdfwhich Chris produced as he lived in
Brazil. Warning, it is big.Tom (Reed), I still want a little tiny stove
that makes activatedcarbon. All I need is a little stainless auger
about 8" long, some 1/4"stainless tubing and ....Well, I gues it
would look kinda kluge hanging off the side of thestove. OK, lets just
forget it cooking, and we will convert it to makeactivated carbon and just
steam the food. Hey, you may not have panfried food but steamed
veggies are better for you anyway, besides, whatdo you want? Fried food or
clean drinking water?Anyway, maybe two stoves are what I want, cause I
still like fried food.I am from Georgia.It has been a long time
since I have been around but thought I wouldsend you these links for the
stove community.Danny Day

From dstill at epud.net Tue Nov 5 10:47:48 2002
From: dstill at epud.net (dstill@epud.net)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:24 2004
Subject: refractory materials
In-Reply-To: <109.1b4bc361.2af89946@aol.com>
Message-ID: <1036520002.3dc80a42090f7@www.epud.net>

Dear Friends,

Tin cans only last about 30 firings in a Rocket stove combustion chamber.
Heavier sheet metal, even stainless steel, does not last for many months if the
stove is used daily. When we use really heavy metal or cast iron folks don't
like the delay in response time, i.e., longer initial time to boil. I
guesstimate in designs that when temperatures are over 900F steel cannot be
used, which means that steel is ok in the fuel magazine, pot skirt, etc.

The company Thermal Ceramics (800)990 5264 makes a material called TR-19, not
KAOWOOL, which is slightly carcinogenic, which I'm now using to make
prototypes. It is inexpensive, very insulative and refractory.

We are working on home grown insulative, ceramic refractory recipes and will
make a complete report soon.

Best,

DeanQuoting Carefreeland@aol.com:

> In a message dated 11/3/02 6:47:35 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> ronallarson@qwest.net writes:
>
> > Dan's comments
> >
> >
> > 4. Also to acknowledge Kevin's question today - on insulation
> > placement
> > and lifetime - and look forward to that answer also. I have been
> surprised
> > how little degradation I see on the ordinary tin cans that are being
> > recycled as stove - but know of no lifetime tests. Anyone?
> >
> > > Lanny, Ron, and Kevin,
> This seems like a good stove to try out one of the refractory
>
> "washes" like a fire resistant paint or plaster coating. Maybe a mix of
>
> portland cement and some fireclay would work for a thin coating. Could
> you
> maybe scratch up the metal inside of the can with course grit aluminum
> oxide
> paper to make the coating stick better?
> > Ron,
> I can't even imagine the metalurgic work that goes into the
> modern tin
> can today. When my Dad worked for US steel in the early ' 50's, making
> and
> coating tin cans was already a very well developed science. I suspect
> that
> the tin (and copper?) coating may be conducting heat faster than the
> steel in
> the can. By conducting heat away from the hot spots and redistributing
> it
> around the can, it can radiate away from the metal before critical
> temperatures are reached. The first step of heat degridation in steel is
> the
> formation of a coating of scale, which is iron I oxide I belive.
> > Dan Dimiduk
>

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From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Wed Nov 6 02:29:02 2002
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:24 2004
Subject: refractory materials
In-Reply-To: <109.1b4bc361.2af89946@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20021105210855.GB4911@cybershamanix.com>

On Tue, Nov 05, 2002 at 10:13:22AM -0800, dstill@epud.net wrote:
> Dear Friends,
>
> Tin cans only last about 30 firings in a Rocket stove combustion chamber.
> Heavier sheet metal, even stainless steel, does not last for many months if the
> stove is used daily. When we use really heavy metal or cast iron folks don't
> like the delay in response time, i.e., longer initial time to boil. I
> guesstimate in designs that when temperatures are over 900F steel cannot be
> used, which means that steel is ok in the fuel magazine, pot skirt, etc.
>
> The company Thermal Ceramics (800)990 5264 makes a material called TR-19, not
> KAOWOOL, which is slightly carcinogenic, which I'm now using to make
> prototypes. It is inexpensive, very insulative and refractory.
>

Which do you mean "is slightly carcinogenic", the Kaowool or the
TR-19? Kaowool and others of the thermoceramics are more than a little
carcinogenic -- definitely want to be very careful working with them, wear a
respirator, gloves, etc. when forming or cutting. I know they've been banned in
some university art departments for kilns.
That's not to say they shouldn't be used, just carefully. So is the TR-19
safer?

> We are working on home grown insulative, ceramic refractory recipes and will
> make a complete report soon.
>

I think that's the real answer anyway. Especially if it's safer -- putting
stoves with carcinogenic riser sleeves, Kaowool, or the like in kitchens seems
like simply trading one danger for another.

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

"War is just a racket ... something that is not what it seems to the
majority of people. Only a small group knows what its about. It is
conducted for the benefit of the very few at the expense of the
masses." --- Major General Smedley Butler, 1933

"Our overriding purpose, from the beginning through to the present
day, has been world domination - that is, to build and maintain the
capacity to coerce everybody else on the planet: nonviolently, if
possible, and violently, if necessary. But the purpose of US foreign
policy of domination is not just to make the rest of the world jump
through hoops; the purpose is to faciliate our exploitation of
resources."
- Ramsey Clark, former US Attorney General
http://www.thesunmagazine.org/bully.html

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From crispin at newdawn.sz Wed Nov 6 09:57:31 2002
From: crispin at newdawn.sz (Crispin)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:24 2004
Subject: Ethiopia
Message-ID: <011b01c28523$a14999a0$cd8afea9@home>

Dear Stovers

I have been a little late in reporting what when on in Ethiopia over the
past week. I took a stove up with me modified (as previously described) to
heat an Enjera cooking plate.

It was demonstrated at the Min of Rural Dev. and a couple of other places.
I saw a number of stoves and cooking methods. I tried out the local
fuelwood (dreadful) and dung, bark and twigs.

The reports of enjera being cooked over a low heat are misleading. It is
cooked on a 58-62 cm diameter baked clay plate and it takes about 2kw
minimum to heat it to the required temperature in a reasonable time. Many
people have electric ones with a wire embedded in the plate.

Enjera is basically a steamed pancake. It is cooked in about 3-1/2 minutes.
The mix is poured onto a hot clay plate. It is left to cook rapidly until
the little bubbles break through making a spongy appearance over the whole
surface. At that point an airtight cover is placed over the top and the
steam thus trapped inside. This steams the rest (the upper part).

After steaming it, the cover is removed and the finished enjera picked off
by hand as a single thin 'pancake'.

The bottom is seared shiny and does not stick to the clay surface, which has
to be maintained in a 'sealed' condition. The top is spongy and the
moisture seeps back through to soften the bottom after a few minutes. It is
a very tricky thing to cook and I only made one really good one by myself.
The temperature of the top of the clay plate is about 150 to 200 C. It took
me 14 minutes to get the plate up to temperature - which is enough time to
boil 5 litres of water with a Shisa stove. I found that 1.5kw was not
enough to heat the whole plate up to temp and in the slightest breeze things
cooled off. The plate is, of course, a thermal insulator which makes the
problem worse.

Not all people use such a big plate. In the east apparently they use plates
down to 40 cm dia.

People tend the stove continuously while cooking so refuelling a Rocket
stove would be no problem.

I found the purpose-made wood-fired enjera cookers with chimneys to have
dreadful combustion characteristics. It would be hard to make them worse.
They are basically charcoal making retorts with too much air to work
properly for charcoal making. They sell for B270 in the 'townships' around
Addis Ababa which is about $35. There is a waiting list to get one. The
metalwork is pretty good and the claywork excellent. They can be bought
with or without a metal stand. The combustion is so bad, they have little
tar/condensed volatiles cleanout doors at the chimney bottom.

A new enjera plate (alone) costs one about $1. They are very good value for
money. The thickness is 14 to 17mm. The new on I bought was thin. The
older one, thicker.

Several problems emerged with my stove: the fuelwood is dry and highly
splintered eucalyptus. It blows up in a gas ball, having a very high
surface to volume ratio. In the initial stages it was impossible to get a
smokeless fire with a cold pot on a full load in the firebox. It is likely
the Rocket stove would perform better with that fuel as is, unless it were
to be split apart less and the fuel load kept small.

The altitude may affect the fire. There is significantly less air at that
altutide and it was very noticeable to me, someone coming from an altitude
of 2400 feet. Provision for secondary air probably needs to be increased as
a result.

Something that I found that burned amazingly well was dung. This is used
far more than I had been led to believe - possibly 50% of rural households
or more - and it is an excellent fuel in our stove.

I admit I never tried it as a fuel before because of its reputation as a
smokey low yield fuel, but it really burned well with the preheated primary
air. The public reaction was very positive. It burned without smell or
smoke - even though it was judged by experts to be not completely dry. I
expect the Shisa stove could cut national dung burning in half, leaving more
for fertilizer, without having to go to imported fossil fuels.

Small amounts of charcoal are used in the widely celerbated coffee
ceremonies. Incense is burned in little holders. Charcoal producing stoves
may find acceptance for this reason. Stoves like the Shisa can be used to
create charcoal and then the air can remain closed so as to avoid it burning
at the end. About half a handful is used at a time. Possibly there are
10-15 million users of small amounts of charcoal.

The energy people at the Min of Rural development did a reasonable test with
the stove using split eucalyptus and bark as fuel. The moisture meter said
8%. With the air wide open that fuel produced 10kw (38 gm/min fuel
consumption) and boiled 2.5 litres of water (18 to 92.5 deg) in about 6.5
minutes. We didn't do a very good job of setting the fire and it took 2.5
minutes to go 'secondary' (igniting the smoke). Such is life. The system
efficiency of the fast boil was 16.2%. The fire was huge.

We then simmered at 30% or more eff. for about 25 minutes - can't remember
exactly. The fuel sucks! It should be cut into short fat pieces to help
control the gassing. Of course it is a poor stove maker who blames his
fuel...

It was the only fuelwood available for sale in Addis. 8 kg cost $0.50 with
about 16MJ per Kg. Dung was $0.12 for 6 patties (no mass available).

The dung went to CO very easily and burned with a bright blue flame. Quite
amazing. Loves the preheated air.

Stoves need to be able to handle round-bottomed clay pots and kettles.

Subjective conclusion: more than half (at least) of the wood and dung
burned in Ethiopia is wasted because of inappropriate cooking devices. Day
after day I was newly appalled at the waste.

And even worse, the recent removal of the subsidy on electricity has driven
many upscale urban households back to wood as their primary cooking fuel.
They are buying the expensive, inefficient enjera cookers that use more fuel
than the open fired varieties!

It would be good for someone like the Shell Foundation to start promulgating
something akin to a clay bodied Shisa stove with a stainless steel grate
incorporating preheated secondary air for better combustion. There is a lot
of clay working skill available. Perhaps the whole grate can be made from
clay.

That's it! Any questions?

Regards
Crispin

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From ronallarson at qwest.net Wed Nov 6 18:15:19 2002
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:24 2004
Subject: refractory materials
In-Reply-To: <1036520002.3dc80a42090f7@www.epud.net>
Message-ID: <NGBBKDEHILILFNJPHEFIOENBCDAA.ronallarson@qwest.net>

Hi Dean -

1. Thanks for your experimental firing number of "30" for tin can use
cycles - clearly not acceptable. I like Dan's suggestion for trying to
improve the can's life with "kiln wash". Let me throw in a few remarks as
husband of a potter. Our local pottery supply store sells kiln wash for
$1.50 per pound or $33 for 100 pounds. This is just some fine-grained
standard high melting point minerals - with absolutely no added fluxes. The
1 # bag ought to cover tens of square meters in the thin coating needed -
but as Dan points out it may not stick very well (but there may be something
that does) on a vertical surface. We should do what we can to test this
approach to lengthening the lifetime of cheap scrap materials. Any other
experience on stove cycle lifetimes?

2. Your (Dean's) suggestion for the TR-19 material prompted me to look up
that "Thermal Ceramics" site - which is really huge - dozens or hundreds of
products. TR-19 (density of 23 #/sqft - sorry about the units) costs about
$1.90 per sqft for a 1 inch thickness in small quantities. It is composed
of mostly vermiculite with a "bonding agent". I got to the site too late to
learn much but will call them back - as I asked (too late) if they sold the
parts separately so one could cast the cylindrical and more complicated
shapes that we want. It appears from their price list that this might be
about the same cost either way (precast or self cast - but maybe less cost,
waste, and effort to get the (often cylindrical) shapes we want. I have to
agree with Dean that we can probably do better (especially in developing
countries) by making our own materials. A key could be what this site calls
"bonding agent" - what is this?

We need to hear more again on this lifetime topic.

Ron

-----Original Message-----
From: dstill@epud.net [mailto:dstill@epud.net]
Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 11:13 AM
To: stoves@crest.org
Subject: Re: refractory materials

Dear Friends,

Tin cans only last about 30 firings in a Rocket stove combustion chamber.
Heavier sheet metal, even stainless steel, does not last for many months if
the
stove is used daily. When we use really heavy metal or cast iron folks don't
like the delay in response time, i.e., longer initial time to boil. I
guesstimate in designs that when temperatures are over 900F steel cannot be
used, which means that steel is ok in the fuel magazine, pot skirt, etc.

The company Thermal Ceramics (800)990 5264 makes a material called TR-19,
not
KAOWOOL, which is slightly carcinogenic, which I'm now using to make
prototypes. It is inexpensive, very insulative and refractory.

We are working on home grown insulative, ceramic refractory recipes and will
make a complete report soon.

Best,

DeanQuoting Carefreeland@aol.com:

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From ronallarson at qwest.net Wed Nov 6 19:43:28 2002
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:24 2004
Subject: On Terra Preta soils, fertilizer, CO2 Sequestration, coal fired power plants...and stoves
In-Reply-To: <3DC82627.6090006@eprida.com>
Message-ID: <NGBBKDEHILILFNJPHEFIGENCCDAA.ronallarson@qwest.net>

Danny
- Thanks for your added comments to my questions. (to "stoves" list
members: I didn't send some of the following to the "stoves" list, as it
mostly about hydrogen production.
<FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>
<FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>See more below:

<FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----From: Danny Day
[mailto:danny.day@eprida.com]Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 1:12
PMTo: Ron Larson; Chris SteinerCc: stoves@crest.org;
mantal@hawaii.edu; bob_evans@nrel.govSubject: Re: On Terra Preta
soils,fertilizer, CO2 Sequestration, coal fired power plants...and
stoves

Ron Larson wrote:Danny (cc Mike Antal and stoves)
-1. Thanks for the update on your own work and on the
terra petra work donein Germany/Brazil.2. I haven't
had a chance to absorb everything on your site or thosevaluable
sites you sent us to - but here are a few
questions:<FONT
face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>[(DD): Before, I get
into your questions; let me answer a question from your second email
first. That question was partially interpreting and paraphrasing,
<FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>(DD): (After reviewing our website, you
noticed that climate change is important to me, as is
sequestration. True but perhaps for reasons that are more centric
to my belief in the changes, we are going through as an evolving
intelligence. I see this as an opportunity for a very subtle shift in
our collective subconscious perceptions. As long as I can chop down a
tree, make a house, grow a garden, and possibly trade with "outsiders",
I can feel pretty secure in my little world. Then someone bulldozers my
world, and I get angry with the intruders, and somewhere my truth is
validated about those "outsiders". Finally, now ... or a hundred
thousand years from now, something occurs, a calamity, a precarious
balance on the edge of extinction, or the natural evolution that has
occurred a billion times across the universe. Something happens,
and we begin to communicate on a level that is at peace with the roles
that has brought us here. Somehow, the sharing of a mutually acceptable,
unconditional idea leads to an awareness that communication between
"that which is the same" in us has a reality and in the end is more
natural than the words and symbols we wrap around it. Collectively,
something has shifted and we look around and there no outsiders. Sharing
an unconditional idea has created the space and the environment in which
we are most home. That shift is the opportunity. It will occur
sometime...and maybe its time has come.
Therefore:You<FONT
face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2> (RWL) asked "I
wonder if you agree - that the terra petra approach to sequestering is
essentially the only way to not just stabilize but to remove CO2 from
the atmosphere. "I think there are brilliant minds on this
planet and many possibly solutions. I sought a way that (1) I had some
way to help implement; (2) That could provide the greatest good; (3)
That perceptionally, a large percentage of the population could
understand the benefits it provided. I looked at reef
rebuilding very seriously and still think that we may need to develop an
artificial sequestering reef program to facilitate the rapid replacement
of these essential elements of our ocean environments that are
dyingThe creation of sequestering reefs systems that can protect
island nations and our low elevation cities will still need a good deal
of study to develop methods that could be done sustainably. Which
brings me back to the question at hand.   I think that this is
a way that nature has demonstrated is a safe responsible way to manage
carbon dioxide sequestration. Jan Skjemstad of Australia and Don
Reicosky (one of our collaborators) of the USDA have written that as
much as 35% of the soil carbon in their studies have come from naturally
occurring range and forest fires. <SPAN
class=380195302-06112002>[Ron
Larson]   1. Dan, could you supply references from these
two?
<FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>
<FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>2. Going back to your reef issue - I also am worried about
this - but can't imagine any way to save these except to stabilize the
global temperatures. Please keep us informed if you see other
ways.
<FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>
<FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>3. I still am asking if there is any other practical
helpful way to really reduce atmospheric CO2 except to sequester
charcoal in the ground. I just can't think of another real option
that is apt to have few objectors.
<SPAN
class=380195302-06112002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>
<FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>(DD): The low temperature pyrolysis we use
results in a different kind of char than normal activated carbon, or
higher intensity partial oxidation gasification and pyrolysis
chars. Elizabeth Simelton, wrote an excellent study of the effect
on soil conditions and carbons conditions in low and high intensity
fires but still these are hotter than we have used.   <A
class=moz-txt-link-freetext
href="http://www.gvc.gu.se/BIBLIO/B-serin/B296.pdf. ">http://www.gvc.gu.se/BIBLIO/B-serin/B296.pdf.
A part of our process uses material generated near the edge of the
exothermic temperature reactions to create a slightly higher voc char
with an affinity for the gas phase constituents. <SPAN
class=380195302-06112002>[Ron
Larson]   Dan - I visited that site - it was interesting but
not too helpful . (It reports on a Swedish study of
in-ground carbon content in Spain - after several types of forest
fires.) I concluded from skim reading that fires are not helpful
to soil conditions and that intense fires are
<SPAN
class=380195302-06112002>[Ron
Larson] worse than lower intensity fires. Am I correct in
concluding that one can't extend from this study to anything about the
terra petra soils? Are you making the point that charcoal making
at lower temperatures is more helpful in the forest fire charcoal-making
case? (I should think the amount of charcoal might differ more
than the characteristics of the charcoal (but I didn't look closely for
this difference.)
<FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>
<FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>DD  What we discovered was that the
lower temperature chars acted as better holding sponges than did the
typical higher temp chars. Similar to Tom's Seasweep, or the char
used in the production of whiskey, except that we don't quench the
material so that the pores remain open rather than sealing them closed.
<FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>[Ron Larson] (RWL _ Earlier
Question:) <FONT
face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">
a. It appears that you see a viable agricultural market for the
charcoalyou are, or are hoping to be, producing. Do you see
the same potential ifcharcoal is produced in simple charcoal-making
stoves? That is, does themarket hinge on your approach to making
charcoal (you have a very nice valuefor the
H2).<FONT
face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>DD: The nature of
the process we currently have developed is optimized around a specific
temperature profile. However, for straight hydrogen production, it
does not matter so therefore charcoal is charcoal. And for sequestration
purposes, charcoal represents fixed char. When making ECOSS, there
will be times when the advantages of making it slow release may not be
as desirable, or the desire for a more rapid release portion will
encourage char made at higher temperatures. Therefore, I see
opportunities for blended chars for specific soil types. If the
char conversion takes place at or near a large producer of CO2, be that
a power plant, paper mill, or other value creating CO2 producers, then
the hydrogen is co-produced and used to sequester CO2 with the ECOSS
Fertilizer. However, as you could see, according if local hydrogen
utilization is low and is market demand, you may move more towards ECOSS
production, even if it means storing the hydrogen as ammonia, which can
the be used to move back into hydrogen as a fuel or into ECOSS<FONT
face=Arial><SPAN
class=380195302-06112002>. <SPAN
class=380195302-06112002>
<SPAN
class=380195302-06112002>
<SPAN
class=380195302-06112002>(RWL2): The point I was making was that
with simple stoves, we probably have no chance to produce
hydrogen (or ammonia). Thus, I am wondering whether you
see enough value in charcoal to make an economic case for its production
when coupled only with the (reduced) thermal output of the
stove.<SPAN
class=380195302-06112002><FONT
color=#0000ff>(RWL)     b. Your
product emphasizes the added fertilizer value when you add it tothe
charcoal. Can that be done in remote areas?
Only a high tech approachpossible? What are your views
on applying your approach in developingcountries? Can a
village scale pyrolysis - H2 plant solve the local cookingproblem as
well?<FONT
face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2> DD If you
notice the power plant analysis, the value of the fertilizer is a small
component. It is the value created by the energy transported in
the hydrogen that offers to allow the production of other goods and
services at a local level. If we develop systems that make
hydrogen as usable as the AA battery, then the fertilizer takes the
supporting role of insuring a sustainable and more livable world, but
its real value is that it produces additional farm income. Yes,
production can be done in remote areas, if the demand for the resulting
product and transportation to farms is available. At some point,
economies of scale will dictate a limit. What that is exactly, 3
farms, or 10, I cannot say, we still have a long way to go in
developing proven costs models and some of the economics will ultimately
be effected by work we are doing nowLet me explain an approach I
have in mind.   The agri-business industry is well established
and they have years of developing products and servicing farmers.
Their involvement will be based on economics:(a) Can they make a
profit. (b) Can they leverage exiting facilities? (c) Can
they provide co-ops and farm groups with a menu of services that allow
them to create additional markets from their existing investment in
knowledge and expertise?(d) Will they be able to take advantage of
the equivalent CO2 credits if an ECOSS fertilizer has significantly less
GHG emissions than other fertilizers during its use? (e) Will it
increase farm income? Farmer purchases are tied to profitable farm
income.The answers to these questions will determine local as well
as international agribusiness involvement. I realize we do not have
enough data to answer these questions. No more than asking a
1960's Gemini engineer what the cost of the space shuttle would
be. At this point, I am making the assumption that the investment
made to put a man on the moon, may be considered small by what will be
required to produce a stable economies with sustainable futures.
Therefore, I will assume that the investments (in further research) in
the "common good" will be made and the farmers, local agribusiness and
industries will be able to predict strategies like can provide
acceptable returns.<FONT
face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>[Ron Larson 2]: Thanks for this
added material. There was a major article in Science (also
repeated in the NY Times and other papers) this week making the point
that the US (and the world) are way behind in getting started on this
change in energy production mechanisms. You are well ahead of the
curve. Congratulations. (I also think the Science authors
didn't give enough credit to the RE options for making an early
contribution.
<FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>
<FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Although I think we can do a lot of high tech work
in developing countries (some of the best mechanics I have ever worked
with were in developing countries), I also admit to trying to get you to
say that charcoal and hydrogen production at the village stove level
might in the future handle cooking and heating problems. But I
also believe that we can get charcoal production for GW-CC use without
H2 production - just the combustible gases for cooking and
heating. We need to get you more involved in stoves - to
understand the code words I have been using.<SPAN
class=380195302-06112002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2><FONT
face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>
<FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>DD <FONT
face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2> More work on this
later but for now lets look at the technical requirements. The
technology is straightforward, but producing consistent results requires
automation. I no longer consider a cell phone, high tech. When you
can go into almost any corner of the world and want to use a phone,
someone is more likely to hand you his or her cell phone. The technology
of the chip is so ubiquitous that it is now what I consider the
"16-yr-old appropriate technology rule". I think McDonalds demonstrates
that rule so effectively. I do not think that there is a single
position in McDonalds in which I have not seen a 16-yr-old
working. Their use of automation, required billions of dollars in
sales and development but I think if they got into the space shuttle
business within ten years we would be greeting a 16 year-old flight
captain at the door of our “space-adventure-lunch-around-the-earth”
shuttle. I say that in jest, but I really think that we can
develop plug and play technology that is no more intimidating than a
cell phone and just as dependable.   It all comes down to
volume. That is one very practical reason why we need to develop a
few sequestration methods that can become very widely accepted. It
is the number of units in the field that will insure its dependability,
no matter the methods. That said, the controls are only one part. I
think that people can use local labor to construct large systems and
supporting infrastructure but with CAD drawings that move instantly
around the world and unused capacity offering rapid implementation and
low deployment costs, a cost analysis/benefit could be put in place for
each region of the world, with standardized production
requirements. <FONT
face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>[Ron Larson] : And I want to
repeat that charcoal sequestration is more effective than any other
approach I have heard of. I keep saying this to see if anyone has
a better approach to offer.
<FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>
<FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>DD: A world scale development approach
offers the ability to use communication and automation in a unique
manner. If we support this in a systems approach, then from a
global perspective, the delivered cost/benefits would include the CO2
sequestration expense in our actual price of our delivered goods. Simply
purchasing goods with published or audited CO2 contents will accomplish
this goal and software components added to existing shipping management
programs.   (Perhaps a UPS calculator page with a GHG expense
column.) Ultimately, I see that we will reach a consensus
on common good approaches to materials utilization, whether CO2 or an
open market for my recycled aluminum cans. With a global consensus, the
costs for developing these units in rural areas can be determined and a
return generated in the form of hydrogen, fertilizer and/or CO2
sequestration credits, both direct and indirect, or other methods that
return value for assisting the common good. The value produced in H2
could be marketed outside an area and a portion of the proceeds going
back establish a regional development program to expand local
sequestration implementation plans.   Centralized facilities
may use char collected from regional areas to sequester carbon dioxide
from large regional manufacturers and return local fertilizer and
electric power from co-generation. This would make areas with
strong sequestration capabilities more attractive for companies to
locate.<FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>[Ron Larson] Which could be in developing
countries. A key issue is that the world
educational system needs to be able to deliver the skilled workers in
bio-energy technologies. It is not rocket science but a broad
based skilled set in chemical, physical and electronics are needed at
the local levels. People who lack skills in areas in which they
are unfamiliar are afraid to their invest their time and energy. There
are many people who would jump at the chance to build the next
generation bio-processing type enterprise if they can (1) Be assured it
will work, (2) Get the technical support so that they are not
taking undue risks (3) Find a way to create value for themselves, their
family and their community. I am such a proponent of
entrepreneurial drive, but we need to build on the steps of commercial
success. The risks of moving too quickly can create technical
success, but stagger economically relying on international
hand-outs. I think that we need local investment, but collectively
we cannot ask anyone to risks the smallest bit of risks until we extend
the necessities needed for the developing country entrepreneurs to
succeed. If we approached this like a franchiser, then we would
put together the frame work of every detail. Every key method,
process and specific training would be provided, and we will find a way
to extend financing with appropriate support so that every project would
be created to create value in the form of profits for those people who
invest capital no matter if it is money, the value stored in their time,
the work of their hands and the assets, (both fixed and/or
bio-available) they bring to the table.If the feasibility
studies we are planning prove successful, I see that we can get help
from many sources to develop a support model that will work and is
reproducible. Once the initial costs of deploying support for the first
20 locations, it could grow quickly and like any other good business
will create more value by the pure will and drive of the individuals
dedicated to "make it work". The last part of your question
concerning village scale systems.This could be looked upon as
scheduled infrastructure. What can we deploy,(like the small
stoves) that could lead to the greatest reduction of CO2 emissions and
reduced health costs in the short term? There are many options of
pyrolysis and partial oxidation routes that offer power, char and those
with the expertise to deliver them, Das, CPC, Reed and many
others. The small scale H2 production work we have been doing is
limited at this time by the need to generate byproducts that offer
profitable operation here in the states . It would be interesting
to see the profitability “frame” shift so that the windows of
profitability could be considered in any part of the world. What is
certainly profitable in China is not here. Also, the factors related to
alternate material management or avoided costs have not been
incorporated in the pricing models I have seen for these small-scale
systems. I wonder if there has been software project written for
such tasks?<FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>[Ron Larson] Whew! That was a lot
of valuable insight on market introductions. I can't disagree with
any of what you said.   But my main point in this question was
to get across the concept that it is fair to have developed countries
help pay for the introduction of charcoal- sequestering in
developing countries. As to software to help - I am sure it exists
out there somewhere.- but it still requires a better than average idea
at the right time. And I think you are onto one at the right time
(as the US won't be ready for at least a decade more - or until we
have seen either a big oil/gas shortage, another nuclear accident,
and/or something to bring GW-CC really home to enough people (especially
in the US - as the rest of the world is already mostly there). You
and I both know that you need at least a decade of hard work to get your
system really ready. It has taken appreciably longer for PV and
Wind and those industries (growing 30-40% per year) are still considered
too small.
<FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2> <SPAN
class=380195302-06112002>[Ron
Larson] (RWL):     c. Your
lead to Christopher Schneider's experimental work was new and
mostinteresting. Unfortunately, there was a (blanking) double
image on slide #18 - which was the most interesting. If you
have a clean version I wouldappreciate it - or send this on to
Christopher - for whom I have no e-mailaddress. We would
appreciate a letter from him on his work.   Slide # 16was
really impressive - showing the growth comparison (maybe the
880%improvement?) On Slide 10 there is reference to a 12 year
old capoeira.Could you (or Christopher) put this in terms of both kg
of charcoal and areacovered? Any idea how Christopher is
getting his charcoal and how much heis paying? Assuming he
does it locally, is he flaring? (Of course Brazilis probably
the world leader in charcoal production - so maybe there is
noproblem there.)<SPAN
class=380195302-06112002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>DD Try this link (again it is big)<A
class=moz-txt-link-freetext
href="http://lba.cptec.inpe.br/Presentations/Manaus2002/ppt/ChristophSteiner-Manaus2002.ppt">http://lba.cptec.inpe.br/Presentations/Manaus2002/ppt/ChristophSteiner-Manaus2002.pptI
will pass this message on to Chris so that he can respond to your
questions.  <FONT
face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>
<FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>[Ron Larson]   Will look right away. To others, I
recommend some fine photos and graphs at Chris' site.<SPAN
class=380195302-06112002> <FONT
face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">    d.
Have you found any leads on how to get the charcoal imbedded
deeplyinto the soil cheaply (especially in developing
countries)? How deep isdeep enough?Not
yet, but I suspect that some of our friends who study forest fires and
char stability will have the answers, maybe Chris has.<SPAN
class=380195302-06112002>[Ron
Larson] Thanks. I hope Chris can help explain more. I
believe he will have a lot of friends on this list.
<FONT
face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2>(RWL):     <FONT
face=Arial>e. You don't show in your economic analysis any
value in a climate changesense for the sequestered charcoal.
Any idea what that should be worth incomparison to other means to
sequester (or "store")? Or to the othereconomic values in your
analysis?Yes, I thought I had updated the
analysis. Now. I have, just follow the links below. I
included it as an off-balance sheet credit/expense. At the target DOE
rates of $10/ton the analysis would equate to a $200,000,000 credit or a
$17/ton of ECOSS at a 10% nitrogen content.<SPAN
class=380195302-06112002>[Ron
Larson] I now see (at <A
href="http://www.eprida.com/hydro/ecoss/powercoanalysis.htm">http://www.eprida.com/hydro/ecoss/powercoanalysis.htm)
the $200 million credit (about 10% of the total economics). I
believe it is important to distinguish between the likely transfer
payments for carbon vs. carbon dioxide   I see your
number is for carbon dioxide so that for carbon is about $37/ton (3.7
c/kg - or about 1.7c/#) - as carbon dioxide is heavier by a factor of
about 3.7) I need to hear more about these numbers and wonder
if others listening in have favorite numbers?    I still
haven't understood (much less confirm) all Danny's numbers - but can add
that the $200 million credit comes from 60 biomass-H2 pyrolysis plants
each processing 53 truckloads per day - each carrying 20
tons.

<FONT
face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Danny - Thanks again.  You
have clarified some things in a quite complicated early approach -
that could have some impacts on the world of stoves. Best of
luck.
<FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>Best regards,Danny<A
class=moz-txt-link-freetext
href="http://www.eprida.com/hydro">http://www.eprida.com/hydro

From robertoescardo at arnet.com.ar Fri Nov 8 09:13:23 2002
From: robertoescardo at arnet.com.ar (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Roberto_Escard=F3?=)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:24 2004
Subject: From EREN
Message-ID: <007401c28608$9bdabfe0$0100a8c0@pentium>

Interesting for those in USA.
<FONT face="Arial Narrow"
size=2>
<FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3>Meanwhile, a report issued in September by the U.S. General
Accounting Office (GAO) found that only 3 percent of energy loansand
loan guarantees issued by the U.S. Export-Import (Ex-Im) Banksince 1990 have
gone toward renewable energy. That fact runs counterto congressional
legislation passed in 1989 that said the bankshould seek to provide at least
5 percent of its energy sectorfinancing to renewable energy projects.
According to the GAO report,about 60 percent of the Ex-Im Band renewable
energy funds wenttoward two large geothermal plants in the Phillipines in
1994;overall, 75 percent of the funding went toward geothermal energy,17
percent went toward hydroelectric power, and 8 percent wenttoward other
renewable energy projects. The report concludes thatthe Ex-Im Bank efforts
to date to encourage the export of renewableenergy "have been limited," but
it also sees some promise in the newRenewable Energy Exports Advisory
Committee, established by the bankin May 2002. See the GAO report, in PDF
format only, and the relatedEx-Im Bank press release at:<<A
href="http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d021024.pdf"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3>http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d021024.pdf<FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3>> and<<A
href="http://www.exim.gov/press/sep0602.html"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3>http://www.exim.gov/press/sep0602.html<FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3>>.

From tombreed at attbi.com Fri Nov 8 09:22:16 2002
From: tombreed at attbi.com (Tom Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:24 2004
Subject: refractory materials
In-Reply-To: <NGBBKDEHILILFNJPHEFIOENBCDAA.ronallarson@qwest.net>
Message-ID: <03d301c285cd$e4a2a750$a48cfd0c@TOMBREED>

Dear Ron, Dean and all:

Maybe tin cans only last 30 cycles in combustion for Rocket stoves, since
combustion temperatures are in the range 1200-2000 C for wood, depending on
air fuel ratio. The MELTING point of steel is about 1500 C, but in an
oxidizing environment it oxidizes pretty fast at temperatures above 500 C.

However, in our wood-gas stoves the pyrolysis reaction is 650-800 C and the
gases produced are reducing. Friends of our in Ward are still using the
original tin can linings in a forced convection stove, cooking daily, after
3 years. (Ward is Colorado's developing country - by choice.)

Ron: I'd be happy to test your kiln wash under reducing conditions if you
can get a pint or so to me.

Another reason for gasifying wood before burning the vapors if you can.

Yours truly, TOM REED BEF STOVEWORKS

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Larson" <ronallarson@qwest.net>
To: <dstill@epud.net>; <stoves@crest.org>; <Carefreeland@aol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 8:01 PM
Subject: RE: refractory materials

> Hi Dean -
>
> 1. Thanks for your experimental firing number of "30" for tin can use
> cycles - clearly not acceptable. I like Dan's suggestion for trying to
> improve the can's life with "kiln wash". Let me throw in a few remarks as
> husband of a potter. Our local pottery supply store sells kiln wash for
> $1.50 per pound or $33 for 100 pounds. This is just some fine-grained
> standard high melting point minerals - with absolutely no added fluxes.
The
> 1 # bag ought to cover tens of square meters in the thin coating needed -
> but as Dan points out it may not stick very well (but there may be
something
> that does) on a vertical surface. We should do what we can to test this
> approach to lengthening the lifetime of cheap scrap materials. Any other
> experience on stove cycle lifetimes?
>
> 2. Your (Dean's) suggestion for the TR-19 material prompted me to look up
> that "Thermal Ceramics" site - which is really huge - dozens or hundreds
of
> products. TR-19 (density of 23 #/sqft - sorry about the units) costs
about
> $1.90 per sqft for a 1 inch thickness in small quantities. It is composed
> of mostly vermiculite with a "bonding agent". I got to the site too late
to
> learn much but will call them back - as I asked (too late) if they sold
the
> parts separately so one could cast the cylindrical and more complicated
> shapes that we want. It appears from their price list that this might be
> about the same cost either way (precast or self cast - but maybe less
cost,
> waste, and effort to get the (often cylindrical) shapes we want. I have
to
> agree with Dean that we can probably do better (especially in developing
> countries) by making our own materials. A key could be what this site
calls
> "bonding agent" - what is this?
>
> We need to hear more again on this lifetime topic.
>
> Ron
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: dstill@epud.net [mailto:dstill@epud.net]
> Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 11:13 AM
> To: stoves@crest.org
> Subject: Re: refractory materials
>
>
> Dear Friends,
>
> Tin cans only last about 30 firings in a Rocket stove combustion chamber.
> Heavier sheet metal, even stainless steel, does not last for many months
if
> the
> stove is used daily. When we use really heavy metal or cast iron folks
don't
> like the delay in response time, i.e., longer initial time to boil. I
> guesstimate in designs that when temperatures are over 900F steel cannot
be
> used, which means that steel is ok in the fuel magazine, pot skirt, etc.
>
> The company Thermal Ceramics (800)990 5264 makes a material called TR-19,
> not
> KAOWOOL, which is slightly carcinogenic, which I'm now using to make
> prototypes. It is inexpensive, very insulative and refractory.
>
> We are working on home grown insulative, ceramic refractory recipes and
will
> make a complete report soon.
>
> Best,
>
> DeanQuoting Carefreeland@aol.com:
>
> > In a message dated 11/3/02 6:47:35 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> > ronallarson@qwest.net writes:
> >
> > > Dan's comments
> > >
> > >
> > > 4. Also to acknowledge Kevin's question today - on insulation
> > > placement
> > > and lifetime - and look forward to that answer also. I have been
> > surprised
> > > how little degradation I see on the ordinary tin cans that are being
> > > recycled as stove - but know of no lifetime tests. Anyone?
> > >
> > > > Lanny, Ron, and Kevin,
> > This seems like a good stove to try out one of the refractory
> >
> > "washes" like a fire resistant paint or plaster coating. Maybe a mix of
> >
> > portland cement and some fireclay would work for a thin coating. Could
> > you
> > maybe scratch up the metal inside of the can with course grit aluminum
> > oxide
> > paper to make the coating stick better?
> > > Ron,
> > I can't even imagine the metalurgic work that goes into the
> > modern tin
> > can today. When my Dad worked for US steel in the early ' 50's, making
> > and
> > coating tin cans was already a very well developed science. I suspect
> > that
> > the tin (and copper?) coating may be conducting heat faster than the
> > steel in
> > the can. By conducting heat away from the hot spots and redistributing
> > it
> > around the can, it can radiate away from the metal before critical
> > temperatures are reached. The first step of heat degridation in steel is
> > the
> > formation of a coating of scale, which is iron I oxide I belive.
> > > Dan Dimiduk
> >
>
> -
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> >
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From mheat at mha-net.org Fri Nov 8 10:49:44 2002
From: mheat at mha-net.org (Norbert Senf)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:24 2004
Subject: refractory materials
In-Reply-To: <1036520002.3dc80a42090f7@www.epud.net>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20021107073522.02b39be0@pop.registeredsite.com>

At 08:01 PM 2002-11-05 -0700, Ron Larson wrote:
>(snip) I have to
>agree with Dean that we can probably do better (especially in developing
>countries) by making our own materials. A key could be what this site calls
>"bonding agent" - what is this?

Hi Ron and stovers:

Bonding agents that we have used for vermiculite include:

portland cement (breaks down at 600 F)
calcium aluminate cement
clay
sodium silicate

We can get vermiculite here (Ottawa Canada) in 3 grades:
plaster aggregate (fine)
concrete aggregate ( coarse)
Block fill (treated with a silicone water repellent)

It soaks up a lot of water, so one of the tricks to mixing it is to add the
water first, to satisfy the vermiculite's "thirstyness", before adding the
binder.

Best ...... Norbert Senf
----------------------------------------
Norbert Senf---------- mheat@mha-net.org-nospam
Masonry Stove Builders (remove -nospam)
RR 5, Shawville------- www.heatkit.com
Quebec J0X 2Y0-------- fax:-----819.647.6082
---------------------- voice:---819.647.5092

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From Carefreeland at aol.com Fri Nov 8 13:17:19 2002
From: Carefreeland at aol.com (Carefreeland@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:24 2004
Subject: On Terra Preta soils, fertilizer, CO2 Sequestration, coal fired power pla...
Message-ID: <15b.172853f0.2afc95da@aol.com>

Ron,
All of this is real nice to consider. I just do not however see any
value in sequestering carbon into the ground while rock coal is still being
dug out of the ground and combusted. There is a case for the fertilizer
value, but only when the prospect of replacing coal with said biomass
charcoal is nonexistent or impractical.
Any char that replaces coal or fossil fuels is directly reducing
carbon introduced into the atmosphere from the earth to begin with. We must
also mention the prospect of reducing catastrophic environmental damage,
reducing mining death and injury, and reducing pollution other than CO2.
Sulfur compound emissions of all types lead the list of the most harmful
pollutants in the quantities they are commonly released in. Then lets not
forget the additional energy used to extract, refine and transport those
fuels to their destinations.
In a case where biomass is abundant, chemical fertilizer is rare, and
a farmer is building his own garden soil, sequestration by this method may be
appropriate. This may be a common situation in a Third World country. Use
any excess, locally stove produced char for the soil. This way the farmer is
not taking away from the supply of char which is replacing fossil fuel. The
prospect of shipping the char is also often impractical.
A stockpile should be kept for future fuel shortages. We also forget
that simply piling up char for future use is also sequestering it. Burying
it for a later date can also be done weather in a mine or in a lined pit out
back.
When we discuss hydrogen we are back to the fundamental drawbacks of
this fuel. We would be better off producing methane and only extracting the
hydrogen where and when the value of doing so is practical.
As a landscaper I can grow trees very fast to produce tremendous
quantities of biomass for fuel. I can continuously raise the efficiency of
solar energy conversion through breeding and cultural techniques. I can only
reduce the amount of CO2 introduced into the air by replacing high carbon
fossil fuels with this biomass. If I put this carbon into the ground, more is
dug up and released elsewhere.
Replacing natural gas, gasoline and diesel fuel with biomass by an
inefficient system will do much less to reduce the greenhouse gas problem.
Fluid and oil based fossil fuels have much less carbon to begin with. Less
permanent environmental damage usually results from their extraction and use.
They grow corn in Southern Illinois oil fields. They cannot grow much at all
on abandon strip mines. underground mines pollute, burn, explode, cave in,
and flood. This causes problems long after mining is over.
The problem is not in using the char. The problem is producing char
economically and cleanly, in large enough quantities to be useful for the
devises that combust it. Powdered and low grade char may be the first most
useful char for fertilizer because of the briquetting step often necessary
for combustion.
Dan Dimiduk

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From ronallarson at qwest.net Fri Nov 8 14:35:23 2002
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:24 2004
Subject: On Terra Preta soils, fertilizer, CO2 Sequestration, coal fired power pla...
In-Reply-To: <15b.172853f0.2afc95da@aol.com>
Message-ID: <NGBBKDEHILILFNJPHEFIOEPCCDAA.ronallarson@qwest.net>

Dan: Thanks for your thoughtful comments. I have tried to respond below.

You said yesterday:

1. " All of this is real nice to consider. I just do not however see any
value in sequestering carbon into the ground while rock coal is still being
dug out of the ground and combusted. There is a case for the fertilizer
value, but only when the prospect of replacing coal with said biomass
charcoal is nonexistent or impractical. "

2. "Any char that replaces coal or fossil fuels is directly reducing
carbon introduced into the atmosphere from the earth to begin with. We must
also mention the prospect of reducing catastrophic environmental damage,
reducing mining death and injury, and reducing pollution other than CO2.
Sulfur compound emissions of all types lead the list of the most harmful
pollutants in the quantities they are commonly released in. Then lets not
forget the additional energy used to extract, refine and transport those
fuels to their destinations."

(RWL2): No disagreements. There are some payments possible already for
SOx and NOx avoidance, I think - and maybe ways can be found to fold more of
your externalities in as well.
The point is that there are apparently real big positive features to
sequestration using charcoal that do not exist for other sequestration
options - which only appear to have costs - no corresponding values.

3. "In a case where biomass is abundant, chemical fertilizer is rare, and
a farmer is building his own garden soil, sequestration by this method may
be
appropriate. This may be a common situation in a Third World country. Use
any excess, locally stove produced char for the soil. This way the farmer is
not taking away from the supply of char which is replacing fossil fuel. The
prospect of shipping the char is also often impractical."

(RWL3): We seem to agree on the first part. But I see the use of
pyrolysis gases (about 60% of the total energy available) as the replacement
for the fossil fuels. By finding this (still hypothetical) better use for
the charcoal, even more biomass is used for its pyrolytic gas value. The
assumption here is that there is a huge amount of unused biomass that can go
this route. (and still more if we started into sustainable energy -based
forestry. Shipping will certainly add costs, but hopefully these are
bearable - and we must assume that the distance out is the same as the
distance used to bring in the raw materials - so the required transport
vehicles are carrying something in both directions.)

4. "A stockpile should be kept for future fuel shortages. We also forget
that simply piling up char for future use is also sequestering it. Burying
it for a later date can also be done weather in a mine or in a lined pit out
back."
(RWL4): If one is not paid to sequester, or one has some "fool-proof"
security means, your option is fine. I think there will be plenty of
problems assuring that money paid for sequestering does in fact sequester.
But I see much wisdom in countries concerned about future energy shortages
also stockpiling as you suggest. Again, I am assuming that available annual
supplies of biomass are adequate, especially in the developing countries of
interest to this list."

5. "When we discuss hydrogen we are back to the fundamental drawbacks of
this fuel. We would be better off producing methane and only extracting the
hydrogen where and when the value of doing so is practical."

(RWL5): We are mixing up two things here. On this list, I think we should
mostly avoid the term "hydrogen" unless it is tied in to rural village
production from biomass and there is some stoves connection (and I think
this is remotely possible). But the subject of methanol as a carrier of the
hydrogen for later reforming in a car (not likely a home where natural gas
or town gas is probably cheaper and more convenient) to allow hydrogen use
in a hydrogen fuel cell is certainly one valid option. However, the trend
seems to be towards straight hydrogen - as being the cheaper approach. If
you are a wind or PV (or nuclear, heaven help us) operator, you are not apt
to be pushing for methanol (as might come from coal in the long term, when
natural gas prices rise too much). I think we may be the only list around
talking about hydrogen from biomass with charcoal output - but we still are
probably not the right place.

6. "As a landscaper I can grow trees very fast to produce tremendous
quantities of biomass for fuel. I can continuously raise the efficiency of
solar energy conversion through breeding and cultural techniques. I can only
reduce the amount of CO2 introduced into the air by replacing high carbon
fossil fuels with this biomass. If I put this carbon into the ground, more
is
dug up and released elsewhere."

(RWL6): I can agree with the first, but not the last part above. First,
there are many other ways to "reduce the amount of CO2..." - including all
sorts of efficiency measures, and at the stove level, we can talk solar
cookers, solar water heaters, PV, wind (I know one person cooking with
wind-generated electricity - and very happy), etc. So, if I put charcoal in
the ground, it does not necessarily follow that more (coal) is dug up.
Rather more biomass may be harvested for its pyrolysis gas value. In
addition, I repeat that I am mostly arguing long term - when we want to
remove CO2 - not simply stabilize. And I am assuming much greater
agricultural and forestry productivity for that extra required biomass -
when the charcoal is placed in the ground rather than being consumed along
with (or after) the pyrolysis gases.

7. "Replacing natural gas, gasoline and diesel fuel with biomass by an
inefficient system will do much less to reduce the greenhouse gas problem.
Fluid and oil based fossil fuels have much less carbon to begin with. Less
permanent environmental damage usually results from their extraction and
use."

(RWL7): Sorry, I haven't caught the point. I see a stove-based charcoal
sequestration system as being definitely more efficient than what we have
today - probably twice more efficient. Many times more convenient to use
(being controllable).
My main point related to the main advantage of going to hydrogen over all
(?) other fuels is the much higher efficiency of the fuel cell. If the fuel
cell promise wasn't around (it is still a future technology, because of its
high cost) we wouldn't be talking hydrogen. Note in residential use, we can
(and do) now (in a demonstration sense) generate electricity with fuels
cells and avoid the separate residential water and space heaters. There is
some of this done with diesel and gas generators - but it will become much
more practical with fuel cells.
On oil and gas advantages over coal - you are certainly correct. However,
I am operating on the assumption that oil worldwide is in short supply in a
very few years and that gas is "plentiful" (not supply limited) only for
another 10 or 20 years worldwide (much less in the US). I would drop all
mention of oil and gas when we are talking sequestration - those are
transitional fuels if we are lucky.

8. "They grow corn in Southern Illinois oil fields. They cannot grow much
at all
on abandon strip mines. underground mines pollute, burn, explode, cave in,
and flood. This causes problems long after mining is over."

(RWL8) In Colorado, almost all our oil wells are now kaput - soon also I
predict in Illinois. So I don't see your point as it relates to oil and gas
drilling (which is being strongly opposed in Colorado by locals for the
tremendous damage done when obtaining coal-bed methane. Numerous law suits
in process.
Re coal land reclamation, I think you can say the same thing about the
places in Brazil where they have found the terre petra soils. After a few
crops, the soil is exceedingly difficult to reclaim (in the absence of
charcoal use) - even to scrub forests. The discovery and report on these
terre petra soils is brand new. So, I guess it is too soon to say whether
the application of charcoal at abandoned mine sites is worthwhile or not. I
strongly hope that someone tries.

9. "The problem is not in using the char. The problem is producing char
economically and cleanly, in large enough quantities to be useful for the
devises that combust it. Powdered and low grade char may be the first most
useful char for fertilizer because of the briquetting step often necessary
for combustion.
Dan Dimiduk"

(RWL9): I think I agree with most of this - except for your apparent
restriction to the process of char combustion. People are killed (by CO)
all the time when combusting charcoal. When not killing (more likely adding
to illness), it is also adding to global warming at a per molecule rate that
is 20-30 times more "effective" than CO2. Our charcoal burning stove
knowledge is worse than that for wood burning, in my opinion, which is
rudimentary. Improved (more efficient) charcoal-burning jikos have been
found by some of our list members to emit more CO than older-style somewhat
less efficient charcoal consuming units. Therefore, I still maintain that
we need to look further into the advantages of putting the charcoal obtained
from pyrolysis stoves into the ground rather than combusting it (and I have
been proposing the opposite for seven years). We can forget this topic if
we can't have it make economic sense. In any case, it is time that this
list had more discussion on proper charcoal combustion. Charcoal use being
apparently less smoky and less messy and more convenient is not good enough.

Even though I have mostly disagreed with you, I appreciate the chance to
have more dialog on this topic - which is only important if global warming
is important - and not all of us agree on that.

Ron

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From tombreed at attbi.com Fri Nov 8 14:36:42 2002
From: tombreed at attbi.com (Tom Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:24 2004
Subject: Deer Scat Fuel
Message-ID: <001c01c286f6$9ff38a50$a48cfd0c@TOMBREED>

Dear Stovers;

What's brown and sounds like a bell?*

While Gretchen Larson and Vivian Reed so most of our cooking with kW or gas
from Colorado Public Service, we know that not everyone has such
infrastructure.

Dung has many uses in India and is a pretty good fuel. Cow patties fueled
the pioneers cooking as they crossed the prairies. Animals have the
patience to collect grass (a terrible, low density fuel) and densify it.
Dung contains a significnt amount of fatty acids, high in fuel value.

~~~~~~
Ron and I don't have access to dung. However, we are surrounded by herds of
deer and elk. The deer pelletize their scat in very neat, separate black
pellets about 1.5 cm in diameter. Yesterday Vivian and I collected 0.65 kg
of these elegant fuel pellets, in their fresh wet (but hard) state.

The bulk density (wet) is 0.26 g/liter.

The moisture content is 35% (wet basis, by drying at 110 C for 2 hours). So
dry bulk density is 0.17, comparable to wood chips.

I am waiting for a sample to dry naturally to see what the equilibrium
(Denver) MC is.

I haven't tried them in the WoodGas CampStove yet, but will report back when
I do.

Different strokes for different folks...

Onward, TOM REED BEF STOVEWORKS

* DUNG

Dr. Thomas B. Reed
1810 Smith Rd., Golden, CO 80401
tombreed@attbi.com; 303 278 0558 Phone/Fax

BEGIN:VCARD
VERSION:2.1
N:Reed;Thomas
FN:Thomas Reed
EMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:tombreed@home.com
REV:20021108T071531Z
END:VCARD

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From tmiles at trmiles.com Fri Nov 8 15:42:05 2002
From: tmiles at trmiles.com (Tom Miles)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:24 2004
Subject: Fw: carbon minoxide
Message-ID: <001b01c28760$b2f50f10$6601a8c0@tommain>

Stovers,

Since you have been discussing carbon monoxide
recently do you have any recomendations for this couple?

Regards,

Tom Miles

----- Original Message -----
From: <A
title=Trukin123@aol.com href="mailto:Trukin123@aol.com">Trukin123@aol.com

To: <A title=tmiles@trmiles.com
href="mailto:tmiles@trmiles.com">tmiles@trmiles.com
Sent: Friday, November 08, 2002 11:37 AM
Subject: carbon minoxide
<FONT lang=0 face=Arial size=2
FAMILY="SANSSERIF">Hello, maybe you may be of some assistance, my husband and I
drive for a truck driving company over the rd and have been assigned a new
tractor trailer that seems to bew making us sick. We keep telling them to check
for an exsaust leek and they continue not to do anything. We have had major head
aches, very aggravated, heartburn, dry skin, and tired all the time.
now the past week I have had asthma.please give me sone input on what to do.
yes we have been to the dr. and a carbon minoxide blood test was
neg.thank you so muchStephanie

From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Fri Nov 8 16:31:44 2002
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:25 2004
Subject: refractory materials
In-Reply-To: <1036520002.3dc80a42090f7@www.epud.net>
Message-ID: <20021108224101.GB9857@cybershamanix.com>

Why would you choose vermiculite over perlite? Not that I know one is better
than the other, but isn't perlite more insulating? I've been using that and
diatomaceous earth w/cement for refractory.

On Thu, Nov 07, 2002 at 07:40:57AM -0500, Norbert Senf wrote:
> At 08:01 PM 2002-11-05 -0700, Ron Larson wrote:
> >(snip) I have to
> >agree with Dean that we can probably do better (especially in developing
> >countries) by making our own materials. A key could be what this site
> >calls
> >"bonding agent" - what is this?
>
> Hi Ron and stovers:
>
> Bonding agents that we have used for vermiculite include:
>
> portland cement (breaks down at 600 F)
> calcium aluminate cement
> clay
> sodium silicate
>
> We can get vermiculite here (Ottawa Canada) in 3 grades:
> plaster aggregate (fine)
> concrete aggregate ( coarse)
> Block fill (treated with a silicone water repellent)
>
> It soaks up a lot of water, so one of the tricks to mixing it is to add the
> water first, to satisfy the vermiculite's "thirstyness", before adding the
> binder.
>
> Best ...... Norbert Senf
> ----------------------------------------
> Norbert Senf---------- mheat@mha-net.org-nospam
> Masonry Stove Builders (remove -nospam)
> RR 5, Shawville------- www.heatkit.com
> Quebec J0X 2Y0-------- fax:-----819.647.6082
> ---------------------- voice:---819.647.5092
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -
> Stoves List Archives and Website:
> http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200209/
> http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
> >
> Stoves List Moderators:
> Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
> Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
>
> Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon
>
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--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

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From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Fri Nov 8 18:52:13 2002
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:25 2004
Subject: Deer Scat Fuel
In-Reply-To: <001c01c286f6$9ff38a50$a48cfd0c@TOMBREED>
Message-ID: <20021109030602.GA10303@cybershamanix.com>

On Fri, Nov 08, 2002 at 12:15:31AM -0700, Tom Reed wrote:
> I haven't tried them in the WoodGas CampStove yet, but will report back when
> I do.
>

Tom, that's one of the greatest ideas, at least for a NA camper, I've ever
herd about. I just can't wait to try some moose pellets.
BTW, have you ever heard Utah Phillips rendition of the song, "Moose Turd
Pie"?

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

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From Carefreeland at aol.com Fri Nov 8 21:45:36 2002
From: Carefreeland at aol.com (Carefreeland@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:25 2004
Subject: On Terra Preta soils, fertilizer, CO2 Sequestration, coal fired power pla...
Message-ID: <137.1723800c.2afe0801@aol.com>

> Dan's comments

(RWL1): Much of my thinking is based on having funds available for CO2
mitigation. Danny Day used $10 per ton CO2 - and I have since hear a number
5 times larger as being a possibility. So I am not proposing this right now
as an option - but trying to get this on the table as a valid sequestration
option - much better than putting the CO2 underground or in the oceans -
both of which are being actively proposed and promoted. When you hear the
term "clean coal" - this is what is the alternative. If you don't think
underground or ocean storage will work (and there are many in that group),
and if we want to control CO2 levels, the only other alternative out there
is nuclear.

> Ron, thank you for such in depth response to my comments. I will attempt to clarify my thinking on this. First, I believe that the essence of what you are suggesting is good, the problems lie in the economics of reality.
> Let's start with the premise that if you can get coal fired utilities to permit the government to extort over $10 / ton for CO2 sequestering that the whole economics of this changes. Many utilities in the USA pay less than that for coal to begin with. You are talking about more than doubling their fuel bill. Burning biomass becomes much more economical to begin with in this environment. If we could get the average power company in the US to pay >$50/ton for coal continuously and also keep emissions in check, they would run to alternatives in a stampede. We'd all be too busy making money to discuss this. Who needs the government to support us when the free market can do it?
> The prospect of sequestering CO2 in any permanent way as mentioned is still quite a dream. If we want to make limestone with all the CO2 where does the free calcium and magnesium come from to produce the carbonates? The only way these elements are available sustainably is to break down the limestone to begin with releasing more CO2. Just pumping it into an underground cavity or the ocean is temporary-it just comes back up sooner or later.
> Before we start rashly talking nuclear, we must realize that the energy substitution problem is not insurmountable. The sun gives us considerably more energy everyday than we can possibly use. The problem is how to convert it into usable forms. Wind, ocean waves, currents, all great but similar to hydro in the drawbacks. Only biomass can be cultivated more efficiently everyday, most places on earth, to harness the sun. Plants are doing it already and the energy is mostly wasted.
> If we use the carbon currently in circulation as opposed to adding more, this is better than any sequestering plan because of the immediate paybacks. 10% fossil fuel replacement by biomass energy is 10% CO2 we don't need to sequester in the first place to bring things into balance.

> We are in total agreement here. I am not suggesting at all that this form of sequestering does not have it's place as mentioned next. Let me add that if we could sequester the sulfur emissions with the fertilizer mix, we could do great benefit to the alkaline soils in the world. Just don't put much sulfur on my trees grown for Metallurgic char OK?
> Nearly thirty years ago I was working on the idea that black powder was first invented as fertilizer mix that accidentally exploded. I carried that idea so far as to be working on fireworks rockets that fertilized the soil with their wastes. I wanted to do away with the few metal salts in fireworks like aluminum, that were usually harmful to the soil.
> If I knew at 12 years of age what I do now about soil science, I would have tried a better approach. I would have used the fireworks to distribute trace elements such as Calcium, Iron, Zinc, Copper, Magnesium, Manganese, Boron, even Molybdenum. Can you imagine a space exploration program that fertilized the earth with it's exhaust? I did extensively 27 years ago, but was criticized for not paying attention to my school studies. There are drawbacks to being just a little ahead of your time.

3. "In a case where biomass is abundant, chemical fertilizer is rare, and
a farmer is building his own garden soil, sequestration by this method may
be
appropriate. This may be a common situation in a Third World country. Use
any excess, locally stove produced char for the soil. This way the farmer is
not taking away from the supply of char which is replacing fossil fuel. The
prospect of shipping the char is also often impractical."

> I see more agreement than disagreement here. In the long term, soil sequestration is a better use for char, if the soil then supports more efficient solar energy conversion by plants. How are we going to sell the powers that be on thinking a thousand years ahead, if we can't get them to think past the quarterly report?
> The first step is to efficiently use the abundant biomass energy that is already being harvested. The second step is to plant, cultivate, and harvest more for additional fossil fuel replacement. The third step is to then worry about putting carbon back into the ground. For the next hundred years, just putting the unused high nitrogen biomass components directly back into the soil is more efficient.
> By leaving stumps, roots, leaves and organic plant wastes in the soil, we are also sequestering a considerable amount. The CO2 they emit is fed directly back to the plants at the source. Unfortunately, many land use programs such as clear cutting do not allow enough plants and soil to remain, to hold onto the humic carbon base being left behind, so it often goes to waste.
> The shipping I am speaking of here, is to export char to outside markets, assuming that local markets are saturated. Much better to just use it as local soil amendment above X shipping cost.

(RWL4): If one is not paid to sequester, or one has some "fool-proof"
security means, your option is fine. I think there will be plenty of
problems assuring that money paid for sequestering does in fact sequester.
But I see much wisdom in countries concerned about future energy shortages
also stockpiling as you suggest. Again, I am assuming that available annual
supplies of biomass are adequate, especially in the developing countries of
interest to this list."

> Again, if one can be paid to sequester, much more efficient to subsidise to substitute biomass energy in the first place. Sequestration payment is practical only where fossil fuel substitution is not economical.
> In the old days a man's wealth was often measured by the size of his firewood pile. If char were used as a poor mans currency, the more hoarding that went on during hard times, the more sequestration would be occurring in the form of fuel reserves. I'm talking a bank account that even the poorest farmer could have, provided access to biomass and a char producing stove. Being a small businessman, I have an appreciation of the value of cash reserves and inventory, on survival. The best way to insure fossil fuels are not used, is to have alternatives always available.

> I only brought up hydrogen because it was being discussed already. Again, a fuel cell energy system is only as efficient as the combination of fuel cell and hydrogen production system combined. I believe charcoal production and use in most cases excluding transportation will be a better energy system. As you mention, hydrogen can be extracted while making char, so that is where it fits into biomass energy plans nicely. Methanol or methane can be carriers as seen fit.

> OK, if it is assumed that all other alternatives are being used as economics allows. Coal will still be dug, so we are down to coal being left in the ground Vs char being put into the ground. It depends on what you burn. Burn char and produce clean CO2. Burn coal and have all of those other problems previously mentioned. The biomass wastes not worth transporting to the combustor can still be used to sequester carbon at the growing site.
>Once you pay an energy and labor cost to harvest and transport, why not burn the char, instead of the coal for which those costs haven't been paid yet. How much CO2 is released just digging coal and transporting it large distances? How much valuable oil is wasted doing this?
> In theory, only when coal is completely replaced does the economics of burying char on a wholesale basis come out ahead from a greenhouse gas point of view. There is an economic balance there with the potential improvement of the soil per ton of char used being the primary variable. I can see in hot dry climates where normal organic matter quickly oxidizes, the value of the char as soil ammendment can be more than the costs associated with coal extraction and use. Certainly in many third world countries, the cost of fertilizer is also a factor.

> I think you did catch my point, and added more. Coal should be the first fuel replaced from a greenhouse gas removal point of view. As you say, the hydrocarbon component of biomass is more suited to replace oil and gas.

> This last point is one I was getting to. I would like to reclaim some strip mined land myself someday, and char was one of the tools in my arsenal. Agree with all other statements.

.> Your first point should be made very loud. Why do we have stoves to burn crude biomass more efficiently and cleanly than ones that burned refined biomass energy? Do we build stoves to burn crude oil better than refined oil? I believe this all goes back to the demise of char as a primary fuel in the USA, soon followed by most other countries.
> Also, why do we spend so much money to research refining a dying fuel such as oil? The same amount of refinement of biomass would yield coal, oil and gas refined products much cleaner and infinitely more sustainably than those fossil fuels? This does not mention the wealth distribution aspects of this plan.

>Remember that agricultural and railroad interests destroyed the forests much more than charcoal production. The greedy coal sellers that dominated the expanding energy markets in the early 1900s downplayed charcoal as a fuel. While advanced chemistry principals were being applied to coal and oil, refinement and combustion, charcoal was trashed due to less consolidated profit motive. The economics have changed as the forests have grown back, wastewood is abundant, and localized Biofuel production again seems the way to go.
> I am 100% behind basic research into practical, clean, efficient and safe, charcoal production and burning systems. I think this is what the fossil fuelers should fear most.

Even though I have mostly disagreed with you, I appreciate the chance to
have more dialog on this topic - which is only important if global warming
is important - and not all of us agree on that.

Ron

> I believe we agree more than disagree. It may have been my quick presentation which skewed the arguments. Even if one does not believe in global warming as a threat, how can one argue with sustainability, less pollution and environmental destruction?

Daniel Dimiduk

From mheat at mha-net.org Sat Nov 9 02:18:20 2002
From: mheat at mha-net.org (Norbert Senf)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:25 2004
Subject: refractory materials
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20021107073522.02b39be0@pop.registeredsite.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20021109052318.00af86a0@pop.registeredsite.com>

Hello Harmon:

We are using the vermiculite to make insulating refractory formulations for
a commercial product (a masonry heater core kit). Therefore, supply and
cost are main criteria. Perlite isn't stocked here in Ottawa, whereas
vermiculite is. I'm familiar with perlite, but haven't evaluated it for our
particular applications.

Some volcanic areas have a lot of pumice - we've played around a bit with
that on the Guatemala Stove Project. Another interesting insulating
aggregate is leca clay.

Best ...... Norbert

At 04:41 PM 2002-11-08 -0600, Harmon Seaver wrote:
> Why would you choose vermiculite over perlite? Not that I know one is
> better
>than the other, but isn't perlite more insulating? I've been using that and
>diatomaceous earth w/cement for refractory.
>

----------------------------------------
Norbert Senf---------- mheat@mha-net.org-nospam
Masonry Stove Builders (remove -nospam)
RR 5, Shawville------- www.heatkit.com
Quebec J0X 2Y0-------- fax:-----819.647.6082
---------------------- voice:---819.647.5092

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From ronallarson at qwest.net Sat Nov 9 04:00:19 2002
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:25 2004
Subject: On Terra Preta soils, fertilizer, CO2 Sequestration, coal fired power pla...
In-Reply-To: <000101c287eb$58ddf240$5f51c5cb@adkarvepn2.vsnl.net.in>
Message-ID: <NGBBKDEHILILFNJPHEFICEPNCDAA.ronallarson@qwest.net>

<FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>A.D. (cc stoves)
<FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>
<FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2> Thanks for the question. I am really sorry. The
answer is definitely "terra preta". My authority is the original NY Times
article (<A
href="http://www.uvm.edu/~uvmpr/uvmclips/Augustclips/SciencePetersonDirt.html">http://www.uvm.edu/~uvmpr/uvmclips/Augustclips/SciencePetersonDirt.html)
which says:
<FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>
"A rich, black soil known locally as
terra preta do Indio (Indian dark earth), it sustained large
settlements on these lands for 2 millennia, according to the Brazilian-American
archaeological team working here (see <A
href="http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/short/297/5583/921">sidebar).
"<FONT
face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>
<FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff>[Ron Larson]:
<SPAN
class=260144012-09112002>
I see
that I started off and have continued both ways. Really sorry for
confusion I have created. ("petra" just sounds right)
<SPAN
class=260144012-09112002>
<SPAN
class=260144012-09112002>Ron

<SPAN
class=260144012-09112002> -----Original
Message-----From: A.D. Karve
[mailto:adkarve@pn2.vsnl.net.in]Sent: Saturday, November 09, 2002
4:46 AMTo: Ronal LarsonSubject: Re: On Terra Preta
soils, fertilizer, CO2 Sequestration, coal fired power
pla...
Dear Ron,
what is the correct version, terra petra or or terra
preta?
Nandu
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid">
-----Original
Message-----From: <A
href="mailto:Carefreeland@aol.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>Carefreeland@aol.com <<A
href="mailto:Carefreeland@aol.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>Carefreeland@aol.com<FONT
size=2>>To: <A
href="mailto:ronallarson@qwest.net"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>ronallarson@qwest.net
<<FONT face=Arial
size=2>ronallarson@qwest.net>;
<FONT face=Arial
size=2>stoves@crest.org <<A
href="mailto:stoves@crest.org"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>stoves@crest.org>Date:
Saturday, November 09, 2002 12:13 PMSubject: Re: On Terra
Preta soils, fertilizer, CO2 Sequestration, coal fired power
pla...<FONT lang=0 style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff"
color=#000000 FAMILY="SANSSERIF">
<FONT
color=#0000ff>[Ron Larson]
<FONT
color=#0000ff><snip>

From yark at u.washington.edu Sun Nov 10 13:45:35 2002
From: yark at u.washington.edu (Tami Bond)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:25 2004
Subject: On Terra Preta soils, fertilizer, CO2 Sequestration, coal firedpower pla...
In-Reply-To: <NGBBKDEHILILFNJPHEFIOEPCCDAA.ronallarson@qwest.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.4.44.0211101341450.63176-100000@homer37.u.washington.edu>

Hi all,

A few comments on Terra Preta/sequestration, especially to Dan and Ron.

> (Dan): I just do not howerver see any value in sequestering carbon into
> the ground while rock coal is still being dug out of the ground and
> combusted.

I guess I have to agree with Dan. If we are concerned with reducing CO2
emissions from energy use, there are two ways we can go about it: (1)
reduce energy demand, or (2) reduce CO2 emitted per energy delivered. We
ignore #1 (here). Charcoal sequestration *barely* addresses #2; the
volatiles are still a carbon-based fuel of approximately average
hydrocarbon composition and approximately average energy content, so
burying the charcoal doesn't gain much in terms of carbon intensity.

Then there are issues with transport, labor, and transaction costs. These
may be solvable in large or medium-scale biomass business. With regard to
more rural or small-scale applications, I have a hard time imagining that
once one has gone through the trouble of getting the wood, one would be
quite so willing to throw away the charcoal. (I would like to hear from
Karves etc.)

> (RWL1): Much of my thinking is based on having funds available for CO2
> mitigation. Danny Day used $10 per ton CO2 - and I have since hear a number
> 5 times larger as being a possibility.

I would be careful whether $50/tonne is for CO2 or carbon. There is a
factor of 3.7 (higher) in value when counting carbon instead of CO2. I
have not heard $50/tonne as acceptable although this is not my area.

> (RWL4): If one is not paid to sequester, or one has some "fool-proof"
> security means, your option is fine. I think there will be plenty of
> problems assuring that money paid for sequestering does in fact sequester.

Agreed, especially when you consider what has happened lately here in the
U.S., with controlled burns coming into favor. We may find out a couple of
decades later that it's just not possible to stuff carbon onto land as
biomass. This is one advantage I see to sequestering charcoal instead; it
might be more foolproof. Then again, charcoal has a disadvantage over
biomass, because the amount that provides incremental benefit as
fertilizer is probably quite limited-- far lower than the mass of tree you
can grow on the same land.

> I appreciate the chance to
> have more dialog on this topic - which is only important if global warming
> is important - and not all of us agree on that.

I agree, I mean, I agree that we can disagree! ;-) I do think it is useful
to address questions like, 'If we need to cut CO2 emissions, what ways are
economically and societally feasible?' ...without getting into the more
polemical issue of whether GW is important.

Tami

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From andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com Sun Nov 10 17:08:52 2002
From: andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com (AJH)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:25 2004
Subject: refractory materials
In-Reply-To: <1036520002.3dc80a42090f7@www.epud.net>
Message-ID: <6g9tsucpc2g0pd3bmaemjpu12a90d8fb9f@4ax.com>

On Thu, 07 Nov 2002 07:40:57 -0500, Norbert Senf <mheat@mha-net.org>
wrote:

>
>We can get vermiculite here (Ottawa Canada) in 3 grades:
>plaster aggregate (fine)
>concrete aggregate ( coarse)
>Block fill (treated with a silicone water repellent)
>
>It soaks up a lot of water, so one of the tricks to mixing it is to add the
>water first, to satisfy the vermiculite's "thirstyness", before adding the
>binder.

I wonder if you or Dean would recommend a recipe for insulating the
under side of a conical lid of a charcoal kiln? I hope to find
something that can be cast into the 1m diameter lid when upside down
and then stay fixed when fired and inverted. I have been happy to use
Kaowool and was looking at kaoclad (wool impregnated with colloidal
silica) it is proving too expensive to play with at present.

AJH

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From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Sun Nov 10 18:00:24 2002
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:25 2004
Subject: refractory materials
In-Reply-To: <1036520002.3dc80a42090f7@www.epud.net>
Message-ID: <20021111025713.GB20528@cybershamanix.com>

When I put my cement/perlite mix in the drum I was using for the fire
chamber, I first put in a layer of the steel lathe (extruded steel) that they
use for plastering nowadays. It works quite well to hold the cement on the top
and upper sides of the drum.
And even tho cement isn't supposed to handle heat well, it lasted the whole
Winter of quite hot fires every night -- hot enough that the cast iron door was
often redhot.

On Sun, Nov 10, 2002 at 07:21:33PM +0000, AJH wrote:
> On Thu, 07 Nov 2002 07:40:57 -0500, Norbert Senf <mheat@mha-net.org>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >We can get vermiculite here (Ottawa Canada) in 3 grades:
> >plaster aggregate (fine)
> >concrete aggregate ( coarse)
> >Block fill (treated with a silicone water repellent)
> >
> >It soaks up a lot of water, so one of the tricks to mixing it is to add the
> >water first, to satisfy the vermiculite's "thirstyness", before adding the
> >binder.
>
> I wonder if you or Dean would recommend a recipe for insulating the
> under side of a conical lid of a charcoal kiln? I hope to find
> something that can be cast into the 1m diameter lid when upside down
> and then stay fixed when fired and inverted. I have been happy to use
> Kaowool and was looking at kaoclad (wool impregnated with colloidal
> silica) it is proving too expensive to play with at present.
>
> AJH
>
> -
> Stoves List Archives and Website:
> http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200209/
> http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
> >
> Stoves List Moderators:
> Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
> Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
>
> Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon
>
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> >http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Chambers/Chambers.htm

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

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From andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com Sun Nov 10 18:06:59 2002
From: andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com (AJH)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:25 2004
Subject: On Terra Preta soils, fertilizer, CO2 Sequestration, coal fired power pla...
In-Reply-To: <15b.172853f0.2afc95da@aol.com>
Message-ID: <909tsus3n2q914rabmpr7p59hbnqj0ds68@4ax.com>

On Fri, 8 Nov 2002 07:48:57 -0700, "Ron Larson"
<ronallarson@qwest.net> wrote:

>
>
>1. " All of this is real nice to consider. I just do not however see any
>value in sequestering carbon into the ground while rock coal is still being
>dug out of the ground and combusted. There is a case for the fertilizer
>value, but only when the prospect of replacing coal with said biomass
>charcoal is nonexistent or impractical. "

I largely agree with Dan on this, my personal view is that the
renewable element of energy usage in the developed world has got to
get to ~20% before we do anything fancy like this.

Two other points, 3rd world locking of char in soil can occur many
miles away from the place where the carbon credit is spent.

Charring of difficult wastes at temperatures below volatilisation of
their noxious components may be appealing to cut volume and mass
consigned to landfill.
>
> (RWL1): Much of my thinking is based on having funds available for CO2
>mitigation.

Overall the idea that we in the effluent (sic) societies should be
able to buy our way out of our excesses with profits made at the
expense of the un developed world does not strike me as equitable.

AJH

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From andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com Sun Nov 10 19:31:40 2002
From: andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com (AJH)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:25 2004
Subject: Deer Scat Fuel
In-Reply-To: <001c01c286f6$9ff38a50$a48cfd0c@TOMBREED>
Message-ID: <8e9tsucjg5pvr43o9ck0349fr6ilppo719@4ax.com>

On Fri, 8 Nov 2002 00:15:31 -0700, "Tom Reed" <tombreed@attbi.com>
wrote:

>The moisture content is 35% (wet basis, by drying at 110 C for 2 hours). So
>dry bulk density is 0.17, comparable to wood chips.

I measured horse dung fresh at >200% dry basis, I can also report that
rabbit (coney?) pellets collected dry worked in my pellet heater. I
think you need to consider the higher phosphate levels may lead to an
acid flue gas.

AJH

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From crispin at newdawn.sz Mon Nov 11 00:01:26 2002
From: crispin at newdawn.sz (Crispin)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:25 2004
Subject: Deer Scat Fuel
Message-ID: <002901c28962$c116ea60$2a47fea9@md>

Dear Stovers

We have a lot of TURDS here in the Johannesburg area. That stands for
Totally Urban Rural Development Societies.

Regards
Crispin

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From Carefreeland at aol.com Mon Nov 11 05:03:31 2002
From: Carefreeland at aol.com (Carefreeland@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:25 2004
Subject: refractory materials
Message-ID: <104.1f4375ac.2b010eef@aol.com>

> Dan's comments

AJH

> AJ, I like Harmon's response to this. Another way I've seen in use, is to tack weld little short pegs of welding rod for the refractory to stick to. It would be difficult with cast iron, but not impossible. If you leave a bead of melted rod at the end of each peg, the refractory will really grab onto something. If it is for a charcoal kiln, the working temp might be low enough to use brazing rod, which may be easier to work with on cast iron.
The way that open hearth furnaces hold the refractory to the roof is by arching the brick like an arch bridge. This may be more practical in a larger vessel like a combustion chamber. Cement kilns have a tapered brick that arches all the way around the rotating tubular kiln. As the brick heats up, it expands and wedges in very tight. Maybe you can borrow some or all of the above methods.
Dan Dimiduk

From Carefreeland at aol.com Mon Nov 11 05:11:05 2002
From: Carefreeland at aol.com (Carefreeland@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:25 2004
Subject: Steve Spence's lost letter
Message-ID: <dc.1faf3de5.2b01107d@aol.com>

Steve Spence,
I don't have your address handy. I lost your most recent letter to one
of the above addresses when my power surged, crashing my computer. Can you
resend the letter about your new project in upstate NY to me? I would like
to visit there someday as I visit in-laws in Rochester NY sometimes.
Thanks,
Daniel Dimiduk

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From ipis at vsnl.net Mon Nov 11 05:18:03 2002
From: ipis at vsnl.net (International Publications & Information Services)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:25 2004
Subject: Could you please post this
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From snkm at btl.net Mon Nov 11 06:01:35 2002
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:25 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Could you please post this
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20021111085549.00969750@wgs1.btl.net>

Dear IndiaCore;

It never ceases to amaze me how people from India -- a 3rd world country --
insist on using the grossest of bloatware to send messages. And to mail
lists!!

Normally I would just automatically send such a message straight to the
trash bin -- without reading a single line!!

The entire world is not as "Rich" as India demonstrates in these style
Email messages to mail lists!!

Many of us have poor I-net connections -- slow and expensive.

Maybe India is only interested in communicating with the rich
industrialized nations -- and wishes to ignore totally the rest of this
planet -- including the greater amount of people in their own country!!

Please -- learn to post in ASCII text to mail lists -- else all future
messages will be sent to "Trash" bin unread.

Actually -- I use mail washer -- and delete them directly from the server
-- never letting them enter my computer -- not even downloading them.

Many of us do this now.

Peter Singfield / Belize

Here is you message properly formatted -- a "favor" I do one time -- and
one time only!!

*********************************

IndiaCore Presents:
International Conference on
Present & Future Trends in Transmission and Convergence
December 4- 6, 2002; Hotel Hyatt Regency, New Delhi. INDIA

www.IndiaCore.com is pleased to announce the International Conference on
'Present & Future Trends in Transmission and Convergence' being organised
in New Delhi, India by Council of Power Utilities under the active guidance
of Ministry of Power, Government of India from December 4- 6, 2002 to
commemorate centenary of Electric Power Transmission in India.

IndiaCore.com and The Council of Power Utilities extend cordial invitation
to worldwide Manufacturers of transmission equipment, Private Project
Developers, Utilities, IPPs, SEBs, PSUs, Transmission Companies,
Distribution Companies, EPC Contractors, Equipment Suppliers, Financial
Institutions, Lenders, Investors, Consultants, Law firms, IT firms,
Telecommunication Cos and organisations with interest in the Transmission &
Convergence sectors to participate in the Conference to share our moment of
pride.

The Conference would offer a unique opportunity of three days full of
informative and innovative conference sessions, and many networking
opportunities. It would provide direct access to policy makers, decision
taking authority and senior executives of power sector and various
utilities as also manufacturers & consultants.

Organised by : Council of Power Utilities

Promoted by: IndiaCore.com

Sponsored by: The Tata Power Company Limited

Click here for Details and Participation

http://www.indiacore.com/BookStore/Details/ipdi/ipdi106.html

NEW BOOK RELEASES

Directory of Key Personnel in the Power Industry (2002) in India

The Publication contains the Contact Details of Key Personnel in the
Generation, Transmission & Distribution Sectors in India. It also contains
the Names and Addresses of Key Regulatory Authorities and other Authorities
connected with the Indian Power Sector.

The Directory necessarily contains Contact Details like Names, Designation,
Addresses, Telephone Numbers, Fax Numbers of several Management Level
representatives in the same organisation and wherever possible the Email
and Web-Address of the organization.

Some of the Organisations that have already ordered the Directory include
Abhitech Energycon, AVN Tubes Limited, Bajaj Electricals Limited, BHP
Billiton Petroleum, CMC Limited, Coen Bharat Limited, Cooper Bussmann India
Pvt Limited, Crompton Greaves Limited, Cummins Power Solutions Limited,
Dresser Valve, Elasto Polymer Processors, Embassy of Sweden, Fisher-Xomos
Sanmar Limited, Greentech Foundation, High Commission of India in Nigeria,
HPL Socomec Pvt Limited, INA Bearings India Pvt Limited, India Law
Services, India-Tech Foundation, Indian Wind Turbine Manufacturers
Association, Infotech Enterprises Limited, Interads Limited, Kirloskar Oil
Engines Limited, Larsen & Toubro Limited, Maharashtra Electricity
Regulatory Commission, Mitsui & Co. Limited, Monnet International Limited,
PRS Permacel Private Limited, PricewaterhouseCoopers Pvt Ltd, Sartorius
Mechatronics India Pvt Ltd, SBI Capital Markets Limited, SPIC JEL
Engineering Construction Limited, Surana & Surana International Attorneys,
VA Tech Hydro India Pvt Limited, Vacunair Engineering, Voltamp Transformers
Limited.

Click here for Contents and Ordering Information

http://www.indiacore.com/BookStore/Details/ipbi/ipbi125.html

Tariff Schedules of Electric Power Supply Utilities in India- 2002

The Publication contains details of the tariff for the following categories
of consumers in India:
- Domestic
- Commercial
- Agricultural
- Industrial LT & HT

The Contents of the Book are detailed Tariffs of the Electric Power Supply
Utilities in India presented Regionwise for Domestic Supply, Non Domestic
Supply, LT Industrial Supply, HT Industrial Supply, Agricultural Pumping
Supply, Street Lighting Supply, Railway Traction etc

Click here for Contents and Ordering Information

http://www.indiacore.com/BookStore/Details/ipbi/ipbi125.html

Visit us at www.IndiaCore.com for detailed information on latest
developments in the Indian Core Sector, upcoming events, new book releases,
etc.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----

If you do not wish to receive Information Updates on developments in the
Indian Core Sector including Events & Conference information and latest
Publication releases, please click here. We will remove you from our list.
We apologise for the inconvenience, if any.

Gasification List Moderator:
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Gasification Reference http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html

From tmiles at trmiles.com Mon Nov 11 06:37:31 2002
From: tmiles at trmiles.com (Tom Miles)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:25 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Could you please post this
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20021111085549.00969750@wgs1.btl.net>
Message-ID: <00c201c28997$cbd55ce0$0301a8c0@tomslaptop>

All,

A more useful question is: are you interested in seeing this kind of message
posted on the lists?

In this case the poster suscribed to the list and posted it directly.
Usually messages of this kind come to Ron, Elk, or myself and we post them
only if they are germane to the list.

It looks like IndiaCore puts on conferences and publishes books. It looks
like an interesting source of information adn hopefully useful to some on
the list.

I note that the sponsor is Tata Power Company which I assume is a utility.
Terin, a Tata affiliate, has been active with stoves and gasfiiers for some
time and has some interesting case studies on their website
http://www.teriin.org/renew/tech/gasif/case.htm My favorite is a gasifier
for large scale cooking applications - 6,000 people per batch.

Tom Miles

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Singfield" <snkm@btl.net>
To: <stoves@crest.org>
Cc: <gasification@crest.org>
Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 6:57 AM
Subject: GAS-L: Could you please post this

>
> Dear IndiaCore;
>
> It never ceases to amaze me how people from India -- a 3rd world
country --
> insist on using the grossest of bloatware to send messages. And to mail
> lists!!
>
> Normally I would just automatically send such a message straight to the
> trash bin -- without reading a single line!!
>
> The entire world is not as "Rich" as India demonstrates in these style
> Email messages to mail lists!!
>
> Many of us have poor I-net connections -- slow and expensive.
>
> Maybe India is only interested in communicating with the rich
> industrialized nations -- and wishes to ignore totally the rest of this
> planet -- including the greater amount of people in their own country!!
>
> Please -- learn to post in ASCII text to mail lists -- else all future
> messages will be sent to "Trash" bin unread.
>
> Actually -- I use mail washer -- and delete them directly from the server
> -- never letting them enter my computer -- not even downloading them.
>
> Many of us do this now.
>
> Peter Singfield / Belize
>
> Here is you message properly formatted -- a "favor" I do one time -- and
> one time only!!
>
> *********************************
>
>
> IndiaCore Presents:
> International Conference on
> Present & Future Trends in Transmission and Convergence
> December 4- 6, 2002; Hotel Hyatt Regency, New Delhi. INDIA
>
>
> www.IndiaCore.com is pleased to announce the International Conference on
> 'Present & Future Trends in Transmission and Convergence' being organised
> in New Delhi, India by Council of Power Utilities under the active
guidance
> of Ministry of Power, Government of India from December 4- 6, 2002 to
> commemorate centenary of Electric Power Transmission in India.
>
> IndiaCore.com and The Council of Power Utilities extend cordial invitation
> to worldwide Manufacturers of transmission equipment, Private Project
> Developers, Utilities, IPPs, SEBs, PSUs, Transmission Companies,
> Distribution Companies, EPC Contractors, Equipment Suppliers, Financial
> Institutions, Lenders, Investors, Consultants, Law firms, IT firms,
> Telecommunication Cos and organisations with interest in the Transmission
&
> Convergence sectors to participate in the Conference to share our moment
of
> pride.
>
> The Conference would offer a unique opportunity of three days full of
> informative and innovative conference sessions, and many networking
> opportunities. It would provide direct access to policy makers, decision
> taking authority and senior executives of power sector and various
> utilities as also manufacturers & consultants.
>
>
> Organised by : Council of Power Utilities
>
>
> Promoted by: IndiaCore.com
>
>
> Sponsored by: The Tata Power Company Limited
>
>
> Click here for Details and Participation
>
> http://www.indiacore.com/BookStore/Details/ipdi/ipdi106.html
>
>
> NEW BOOK RELEASES
>
> Directory of Key Personnel in the Power Industry (2002) in India
>
> The Publication contains the Contact Details of Key Personnel in the
> Generation, Transmission & Distribution Sectors in India. It also contains
> the Names and Addresses of Key Regulatory Authorities and other
Authorities
> connected with the Indian Power Sector.
>
> The Directory necessarily contains Contact Details like Names,
Designation,
> Addresses, Telephone Numbers, Fax Numbers of several Management Level
> representatives in the same organisation and wherever possible the Email
> and Web-Address of the organization.
>
> Some of the Organisations that have already ordered the Directory include
> Abhitech Energycon, AVN Tubes Limited, Bajaj Electricals Limited, BHP
> Billiton Petroleum, CMC Limited, Coen Bharat Limited, Cooper Bussmann
India
> Pvt Limited, Crompton Greaves Limited, Cummins Power Solutions Limited,
> Dresser Valve, Elasto Polymer Processors, Embassy of Sweden, Fisher-Xomos
> Sanmar Limited, Greentech Foundation, High Commission of India in Nigeria,
> HPL Socomec Pvt Limited, INA Bearings India Pvt Limited, India Law
> Services, India-Tech Foundation, Indian Wind Turbine Manufacturers
> Association, Infotech Enterprises Limited, Interads Limited, Kirloskar Oil
> Engines Limited, Larsen & Toubro Limited, Maharashtra Electricity
> Regulatory Commission, Mitsui & Co. Limited, Monnet International Limited,
> PRS Permacel Private Limited, PricewaterhouseCoopers Pvt Ltd, Sartorius
> Mechatronics India Pvt Ltd, SBI Capital Markets Limited, SPIC JEL
> Engineering Construction Limited, Surana & Surana International Attorneys,
> VA Tech Hydro India Pvt Limited, Vacunair Engineering, Voltamp
Transformers
> Limited.
>
>
> Click here for Contents and Ordering Information
>
>
> http://www.indiacore.com/BookStore/Details/ipbi/ipbi125.html
>
>
> Tariff Schedules of Electric Power Supply Utilities in India- 2002
>
> The Publication contains details of the tariff for the following
categories
> of consumers in India:
> - Domestic
> - Commercial
> - Agricultural
> - Industrial LT & HT
>
>
> The Contents of the Book are detailed Tariffs of the Electric Power Supply
> Utilities in India presented Regionwise for Domestic Supply, Non Domestic
> Supply, LT Industrial Supply, HT Industrial Supply, Agricultural Pumping
> Supply, Street Lighting Supply, Railway Traction etc
>
>
> Click here for Contents and Ordering Information
>
>
> http://www.indiacore.com/BookStore/Details/ipbi/ipbi125.html
>
>
> Visit us at www.IndiaCore.com for detailed information on latest
> developments in the Indian Core Sector, upcoming events, new book
releases,
> etc.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
> ----
>
> If you do not wish to receive Information Updates on developments in the
> Indian Core Sector including Events & Conference information and latest
> Publication releases, please click here. We will remove you from our list.
> We apologise for the inconvenience, if any.
>
>
> Copyright © 2002 IndiaCore.com & International Publications & Information
> Services. All rights reserved.
>
>
> Gasification List Moderator:
> Tom Reed, Biomass Energy Foundation, tombreed@attbi.com Biomass =
> Energy Foundation, www.woodgas.com
> List-Post: <mailto:gasification@crest.org>
> List-Help: <mailto:gasification-help@crest.org>
> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:gasification-unsubscribe@crest.org>
> List-Subscribe: <mailto:gasification-subscribe@crest.org>
> -
> Gasification List Archives
http://www.crest.org/discussion/gasification/200202/
> Bioenergy 2002 http://www.bioenergy2002.org/
> 200 kWe CHP Discussion
> http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/gasification/200kWCHP.html
> Gasification Reference
http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html
>
> >
>

From f.martirena at enet.cu Mon Nov 11 07:09:44 2002
From: f.martirena at enet.cu (Fernando Martirena)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:25 2004
Subject: Could you please post this
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20021111085549.00969750@wgs1.btl.net>
Message-ID: <003201c2899b$96d01270$ab000a0a@fc.uclv.edu.cu>

I think there are more polite ways to put an idea...

fernando martirena
Cuba
(also another "third world country" where internet access is very slow...)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Singfield" <snkm@btl.net>
To: <stoves@crest.org>
Cc: <gasification@crest.org>
Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 9:57 AM
Subject: Could you please post this

>
> Dear IndiaCore;
>
> It never ceases to amaze me how people from India -- a 3rd world
country --
> insist on using the grossest of bloatware to send messages. And to mail
> lists!!
>
> Normally I would just automatically send such a message straight to the
> trash bin -- without reading a single line!!
>
> The entire world is not as "Rich" as India demonstrates in these style
> Email messages to mail lists!!
>
> Many of us have poor I-net connections -- slow and expensive.
>
> Maybe India is only interested in communicating with the rich
> industrialized nations -- and wishes to ignore totally the rest of this
> planet -- including the greater amount of people in their own country!!
>
> Please -- learn to post in ASCII text to mail lists -- else all future
> messages will be sent to "Trash" bin unread.
>
> Actually -- I use mail washer -- and delete them directly from the server
> -- never letting them enter my computer -- not even downloading them.
>
> Many of us do this now.
>
> Peter Singfield / Belize
>
> Here is you message properly formatted -- a "favor" I do one time -- and
> one time only!!
>
> *********************************
>
>
> IndiaCore Presents:
> International Conference on
> Present & Future Trends in Transmission and Convergence
> December 4- 6, 2002; Hotel Hyatt Regency, New Delhi. INDIA
>
>
> www.IndiaCore.com is pleased to announce the International Conference on
> 'Present & Future Trends in Transmission and Convergence' being organised
> in New Delhi, India by Council of Power Utilities under the active
guidance
> of Ministry of Power, Government of India from December 4- 6, 2002 to
> commemorate centenary of Electric Power Transmission in India.
>
> IndiaCore.com and The Council of Power Utilities extend cordial invitation
> to worldwide Manufacturers of transmission equipment, Private Project
> Developers, Utilities, IPPs, SEBs, PSUs, Transmission Companies,
> Distribution Companies, EPC Contractors, Equipment Suppliers, Financial
> Institutions, Lenders, Investors, Consultants, Law firms, IT firms,
> Telecommunication Cos and organisations with interest in the Transmission
&
> Convergence sectors to participate in the Conference to share our moment
of
> pride.
>
> The Conference would offer a unique opportunity of three days full of
> informative and innovative conference sessions, and many networking
> opportunities. It would provide direct access to policy makers, decision
> taking authority and senior executives of power sector and various
> utilities as also manufacturers & consultants.
>
>
> Organised by : Council of Power Utilities
>
>
> Promoted by: IndiaCore.com
>
>
> Sponsored by: The Tata Power Company Limited
>
>
> Click here for Details and Participation
>
> http://www.indiacore.com/BookStore/Details/ipdi/ipdi106.html
>
>
> NEW BOOK RELEASES
>
> Directory of Key Personnel in the Power Industry (2002) in India
>
> The Publication contains the Contact Details of Key Personnel in the
> Generation, Transmission & Distribution Sectors in India. It also contains
> the Names and Addresses of Key Regulatory Authorities and other
Authorities
> connected with the Indian Power Sector.
>
> The Directory necessarily contains Contact Details like Names,
Designation,
> Addresses, Telephone Numbers, Fax Numbers of several Management Level
> representatives in the same organisation and wherever possible the Email
> and Web-Address of the organization.
>
> Some of the Organisations that have already ordered the Directory include
> Abhitech Energycon, AVN Tubes Limited, Bajaj Electricals Limited, BHP
> Billiton Petroleum, CMC Limited, Coen Bharat Limited, Cooper Bussmann
India
> Pvt Limited, Crompton Greaves Limited, Cummins Power Solutions Limited,
> Dresser Valve, Elasto Polymer Processors, Embassy of Sweden, Fisher-Xomos
> Sanmar Limited, Greentech Foundation, High Commission of India in Nigeria,
> HPL Socomec Pvt Limited, INA Bearings India Pvt Limited, India Law
> Services, India-Tech Foundation, Indian Wind Turbine Manufacturers
> Association, Infotech Enterprises Limited, Interads Limited, Kirloskar Oil
> Engines Limited, Larsen & Toubro Limited, Maharashtra Electricity
> Regulatory Commission, Mitsui & Co. Limited, Monnet International Limited,
> PRS Permacel Private Limited, PricewaterhouseCoopers Pvt Ltd, Sartorius
> Mechatronics India Pvt Ltd, SBI Capital Markets Limited, SPIC JEL
> Engineering Construction Limited, Surana & Surana International Attorneys,
> VA Tech Hydro India Pvt Limited, Vacunair Engineering, Voltamp
Transformers
> Limited.
>
>
> Click here for Contents and Ordering Information
>
>
> http://www.indiacore.com/BookStore/Details/ipbi/ipbi125.html
>
>
> Tariff Schedules of Electric Power Supply Utilities in India- 2002
>
> The Publication contains details of the tariff for the following
categories
> of consumers in India:
> - Domestic
> - Commercial
> - Agricultural
> - Industrial LT & HT
>
>
> The Contents of the Book are detailed Tariffs of the Electric Power Supply
> Utilities in India presented Regionwise for Domestic Supply, Non Domestic
> Supply, LT Industrial Supply, HT Industrial Supply, Agricultural Pumping
> Supply, Street Lighting Supply, Railway Traction etc
>
>
> Click here for Contents and Ordering Information
>
>
> http://www.indiacore.com/BookStore/Details/ipbi/ipbi125.html
>
>
> Visit us at www.IndiaCore.com for detailed information on latest
> developments in the Indian Core Sector, upcoming events, new book
releases,
> etc.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
> ----
>
> If you do not wish to receive Information Updates on developments in the
> Indian Core Sector including Events & Conference information and latest
> Publication releases, please click here. We will remove you from our list.
> We apologise for the inconvenience, if any.
>
>
> Copyright © 2002 IndiaCore.com & International Publications & Information
> Services. All rights reserved.
>
>
> -
> Stoves List Archives and Website:
> http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200209/
> http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
> >
> Stoves List Moderators:
> Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
> Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
>
> Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon
>
> List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
> List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
> List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>
> >
> For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
>
>http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Chambers/Chambers.htm
>

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>
For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
>http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Chambers/Chambers.htm

From snkm at btl.net Mon Nov 11 08:56:01 2002
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:25 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Re: Could you please post this
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20021111114421.0098a730@wgs1.btl.net>

At 10:47 AM 11/11/2002 -0500, Fernando Martirena wrote:
>I think there are more polite ways to put an idea...
>
>fernando martirena
>Cuba
>(also another "third world country" where internet access is very slow...)
>
>

Dear Fernando;

Your right!!

I go back to the system I normally use -- delete these style messages on
the server using Mailwasher -- not even have to bother downloading them.

Thanks for pointing out the "error" in my ways -- such as trying to discuss
such an issue in open forum.

Your right -- we are all better off just keeping silent and letting things
take their course.

So yes -- America -- and apparently Cuba -- can peruse such messages in
future -- and if anything of value -- can post in short text messages to
the rest of us out here.

The original message was over 60 kb in size with four file attachments. The
same information was re-posted in 6 kb -- no attachments.

Sorry to hear that suggesting efficiency is considered impolite.

Some of us here are engineers -- not politicians -- and have little time to
be so diplomatic.

It is very hard for me to encourage inefficient means of anything!

It is a habit -- that once embraced -- has no ending.

Besides all the bloatware -- the actual message is considered a "Spam" by
some. It is promoting/selling merchandize. Normally this kind of info is
reviewed by the respective list moderators before being posted.

With specific comments of value added.

At the very least -- just a single line with the Url and a few words
describing what is there -- is sufficient.

I hate to think this kind of "habit" will be regarded as good practice --
and we get flooded with multiple such messages per day.

It is all about mail list etiquette -- that is rules of manner that are
considered "polite" when posting to mail lists.

There is also one other very real reason not to post to any list in this
manner --

That is virus attacks come in this form -- not in standard ASCII text
messages -- ever!!

More than a few members of both these lists were hit -- and hit hard -- in
exactly this manner not so long back.

Could you suggest a "polite" method of handling this??

Could you explain why "Bloatware" messages are required for technical
information transfer -- do they present the information better??

Oh -- it is a very large topic -- and I do not have the time for this --

Peter Singfield
Belize

From motie at paulbunyan.net Mon Nov 11 11:10:11 2002
From: motie at paulbunyan.net (Motie)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:25 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Re: Could you please post this
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20021111114421.0098a730@wgs1.btl.net>
Message-ID: <000d01c289bd$85033780$9ac2bfd1@m6o7s4>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Singfield" <snkm@btl.net>
To: <stoves@crest.org>
Cc: <gasification@crest.org>
Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 11:46 AM
Subject: GAS-L: Re: Could you please post this

>
> Dear Fernando;
>
> Your right!!
>
> I go back to the system I normally use -- delete these style messages on
> the server using Mailwasher -- not even have to bother downloading them.
>
> Thanks for pointing out the "error" in my ways -- such as trying to
discuss
> such an issue in open forum.
>
SNIP>
>
> Could you explain why "Bloatware" messages are required for technical
> information transfer -- do they present the information better??
>
> Oh -- it is a very large topic -- and I do not have the time for this --
>
> Peter Singfield
> Belize
>

I support Mr Singfield's point of view. Is the purpose of these lists the
widest exchange of useful information, or just another format to showcase
the latest in computer software technology?

Motie

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List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>
>
For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
>http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Chambers/Chambers.htm

From andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com Mon Nov 11 12:54:40 2002
From: andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com (AJH)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:25 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Could you please post this
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20021111085549.00969750@wgs1.btl.net>
Message-ID: <l090tu4r8lgi148nd6dpcn2lcl4shvlkqo@4ax.com>

On Mon, 11 Nov 2002 07:34:04 -0800, "Tom Miles" <tmiles@trmiles.com>
wrote:

>All,
>
>A more useful question is: are you interested in seeing this kind of message
>posted on the lists?

I see nothing wrong with posting announcements to the list, as long as
the commercial advertising is minimal. This posting contained 15.8k
bytes of html and gif files of 1.3k, 4.8k, 1.1k and 13.6k which the
list bot should have stripped off.

Until everyone on the list has free access to a broadband connection I
believe the list should remain text based, though I am not averse to
the occasional jpg as illustration, even though this would be better
displayed on a website.

AJH

List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
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List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>
>
For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
>http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Chambers/Chambers.htm

From andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com Mon Nov 11 13:01:45 2002
From: andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com (AJH)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:26 2004
Subject: refractory materials
In-Reply-To: <1036520002.3dc80a42090f7@www.epud.net>
Message-ID: <md90tu0fg03spbe4d253toqq653vagfksg@4ax.com>

On Sun, 10 Nov 2002 20:57:13 -0600, Harmon Seaver
<hseaver@cybershamanix.com> wrote:

> When I put my cement/perlite mix in the drum I was using for the fire
>chamber, I first put in a layer of the steel lathe (extruded steel) that they
>use for plastering nowadays. It works quite well to hold the cement on the top
>and upper sides of the drum.
> And even tho cement isn't supposed to handle heat well, it lasted the whole
>Winter of quite hot fires every night -- hot enough that the cast iron door was
>often redhot.

I like the expanded steel idea, I was considering chicken wire. I am
sure the ordinary cement would be OK in my case, as temperature is
unlikely to exceed 700C. What ratio of cement to vermiculite?

I had wanted to try one of the clay vermiculite mixes just to see how
they worked. I think casting a monolith like this will be liable to
cracking, but if it stays in place this is not a problem.

I have previously played with a fire clay wash to protect my burners,
I am still not sure what fire clay is, nor how it sets, but it does
make a refractory wash that only needs occasional making good. One of
my burners is made from the vitreous enameled flue hood of a gas
boiler, this has suffered no visible deterioration when burning wood.
It does not get subjected to >1000C (even though the flame temperature
is higher, dilution air protects the metalwork).

Following Dan's suggestion: I have also experimented with "welding"
bits of mig wire through the kaowool to secure it, trouble is its all
a bit uncontrollable and the wire insulated by the kaowool often melts
early.

What I fancy trying is a capacitor discharge stud welder fixing short
lenghts of nickle alloy welding rod to the steel.

AJH

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From Carefreeland at aol.com Mon Nov 11 16:59:52 2002
From: Carefreeland at aol.com (Carefreeland@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:26 2004
Subject: Fwd: refractory materials
Message-ID: <160.16e12f53.2b01b9f9@aol.com>

To: andrew.heggie@dtn.ntl.com
Subject: Re: refractory materials
From: Carefreeland@aol.com
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 20:56:24 EST
Full-name: Carefreeland
In a message dated 11/11/02 4:59:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, andrew.heggie@dtn.ntl.com writes:

> Dan comments

> Fireclay is made of a refractory clay similar to what is used for high temp firebrick. It is made to be fired (baked) into place at a high temp. By mixing the Portland cement with the fireclay you lower the operating temp but gain more low temp strength and eliminate the need to fire at such hot temps. Most fireclays will withstand molten iron temps around F 3000 degrees, so you have some room to lower the operating temp and still be OK.
> Fireclays consist of mixed aluminum and silicon oxides in the form of silica-SiO2 and Alumina-Al2O3. If my high school chemistry serves me, that would be silicon dioxide and di-aluminum trioxide.
> Actual high temp refractory brick is often made of large fused natural grains of these substances. One such grain is natural flint. Mother nature does a pretty good job of high temp, high pressure melting. The grains are pressed together and cemented with other bonding agents which fuse together when fired at very high temps.
>The highest temps are tolerated with the higher alumina percentages. There is only a range of F 3000 degrees to F 3600. Not much difference, but all the difference when steel melts at just below F 3000 degrees, and most hydrocarbon gases burn at near F 3600. My guess is that the higher silica brick is stronger so they use the highest silica percentage content that will take the heat of the application. In your case fireclay with about 50% of each is fine.
> A high temp substitute for Portland cement is calcium aluminate cement. It is supposed to retain it's bonding power at a higher temp.
> Possibly the reason your fireclay is not holding up is that you are only firing the inside layer that is exposed to the highest heat. The separation between fired and unfired clay may be where the cracking is taking place.

One of

my burners is made from the vitreous enameled flue hood of a gas
boiler, this has suffered no visible deterioration when burning wood.
It does not get subjected to >1000C (even though the flame temperature
is higher, dilution air protects the metalwork).

> Try short pegs that lie under the surface of the refractory lining. Maybe keep the length under half the thickness of the refractory. They should look like whiskers with beads on them. Blastfurnaces use water cooling plates of copper or brass that extend into the refractory half the thickness. Some cooking stoves use heavy 1/8" wrought iron strap to hold refractory brick in place. I've burned through some of this stuff easily with a little preheating and hardwood charcoal. For a charcoal kiln it may be OK though.
> Let me know how things work out. I'll be working on some of these same challenges soon enough.
Daniel Dimiduk

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From adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in Mon Nov 11 18:02:54 2002
From: adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in (A.D. Karve)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:26 2004
Subject: Could you please post this
Message-ID: <000001c289fb$82969b20$c050c5cb@adkarvepn2.vsnl.net.in>

Dear Peter and others
I agree with you that my compatriots are often unnecessarily verbose, but
you should have directed your diatribe to the originator of the long message
received by you and not to the stoves discussion group. I don't think that
any of the Indian stovers are guilty of the offence described by you.
Yours
Dr.A.D.Karve
President,
Appropriate Rural Technology Institute
Pune, India
-----Original Message-----
From: Fernando Martirena <f.martirena@enet.cu>
To: stoves@crest.org <stoves@crest.org>; Peter Singfield <snkm@btl.net>
Cc: gasification@crest.org <gasification@crest.org>
Date: Monday, November 11, 2002 9:36 PM
Subject: Re: Could you please post this

>I think there are more polite ways to put an idea...
>
>fernando martirena
>Cuba
>(also another "third world country" where internet access is very slow...)
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Peter Singfield" <snkm@btl.net>
>To: <stoves@crest.org>
>Cc: <gasification@crest.org>
>Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 9:57 AM
>Subject: Could you please post this
>
>
>>
>> Dear IndiaCore;
>>
>> It never ceases to amaze me how people from India -- a 3rd world
>country --
>> insist on using the grossest of bloatware to send messages. And to mail
>> lists!!
>>
>> Normally I would just automatically send such a message straight to the
>> trash bin -- without reading a single line!!
>>
>> The entire world is not as "Rich" as India demonstrates in these style
>> Email messages to mail lists!!
>>
>> Many of us have poor I-net connections -- slow and expensive.
>>
>> Maybe India is only interested in communicating with the rich
>> industrialized nations -- and wishes to ignore totally the rest of this
>> planet -- including the greater amount of people in their own country!!
>>
>> Please -- learn to post in ASCII text to mail lists -- else all future
>> messages will be sent to "Trash" bin unread.
>>
>> Actually -- I use mail washer -- and delete them directly from the server
>> -- never letting them enter my computer -- not even downloading them.
>>
>> Many of us do this now.
>>
>> Peter Singfield / Belize
>>
>> Here is you message properly formatted -- a "favor" I do one time -- and
>> one time only!!
>>
>> *********************************
>>
>>
>> IndiaCore Presents:
>> International Conference on
>> Present & Future Trends in Transmission and Convergence
>> December 4- 6, 2002; Hotel Hyatt Regency, New Delhi. INDIA
>>
>>
>> www.IndiaCore.com is pleased to announce the International Conference on
>> 'Present & Future Trends in Transmission and Convergence' being organised
>> in New Delhi, India by Council of Power Utilities under the active
>guidance
>> of Ministry of Power, Government of India from December 4- 6, 2002 to
>> commemorate centenary of Electric Power Transmission in India.
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>> IndiaCore.com and The Council of Power Utilities extend cordial
invitation
>> to worldwide Manufacturers of transmission equipment, Private Project
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>&
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>of
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>>
>> The Conference would offer a unique opportunity of three days full of
>> informative and innovative conference sessions, and many networking
>> opportunities. It would provide direct access to policy makers, decision
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>> utilities as also manufacturers & consultants.
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>Authorities
>> connected with the Indian Power Sector.
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Nigeria,
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Oil
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Limited,
>> PRS Permacel Private Limited, PricewaterhouseCoopers Pvt Ltd, Sartorius
>> Mechatronics India Pvt Ltd, SBI Capital Markets Limited, SPIC JEL
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Attorneys,
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>> Limited.
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>categories
>> of consumers in India:
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>>
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>> Utilities in India presented Regionwise for Domestic Supply, Non Domestic
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>>
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>> Visit us at www.IndiaCore.com for detailed information on latest
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>releases,
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>> -
>> Stoves List Archives and Website:
>> http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200209/
>> http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
>> >
>> Stoves List Moderators:
>> Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
>> Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
>>
>> Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
>> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
>> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
>> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon
>>
>> List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
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>> >
>> For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
>>
>>http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Chambers/Chambers.ht
m
>>
>
>
>-
>Stoves List Archives and Website:
>http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200209/
>http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
>>
>Stoves List Moderators:
>Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
>Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
>
>Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
>http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
>http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
>http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon
>
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>>
>For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
>>http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Chambers/Chambers.ht
m
>
>

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From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Mon Nov 11 18:12:36 2002
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:26 2004
Subject: refractory materials
In-Reply-To: <1036520002.3dc80a42090f7@www.epud.net>
Message-ID: <20021112030928.GA2770@cybershamanix.com>

On Mon, Nov 11, 2002 at 09:57:37PM +0000, AJH wrote:
> On Sun, 10 Nov 2002 20:57:13 -0600, Harmon Seaver
> <hseaver@cybershamanix.com> wrote:
>
> > When I put my cement/perlite mix in the drum I was using for the fire
> >chamber, I first put in a layer of the steel lathe (extruded steel) that they
> >use for plastering nowadays. It works quite well to hold the cement on the top
> >and upper sides of the drum.
> > And even tho cement isn't supposed to handle heat well, it lasted the whole
> >Winter of quite hot fires every night -- hot enough that the cast iron door was
> >often redhot. >
>
> I like the expanded steel idea, I was considering chicken wire. I am
> sure the ordinary cement would be OK in my case, as temperature is
> unlikely to exceed 700C. What ratio of cement to vermiculite?
>

In my case, the metal lathe was exceedingly easy to apply. It comes in rolls,
so just measuring the circumference of the drum and cutting the correct length
with tin snips, then letting that unroll in the drum did the trick. I put some
bolts thru it for good measure, but were hardly neccessary.
Didn't use vermiculite, rather perlite.
I think perlite 6:1, but I'll have to look it up.

Meanwhile, check this out:

http://home.attbi.com/~wasser/NEMES/MakeICR.html

Nice perlite with refractory cement.

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

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From ronallarson at qwest.net Mon Nov 11 19:56:33 2002
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:26 2004
Subject: Gel Ethanol (forwarding inquiry from Turkey)
In-Reply-To: <000701c288de$41d28c70$04daafc3@hp>
Message-ID: <NGBBKDEHILILFNJPHEFIAEBKCEAA.ronallarson@qwest.net>

Stovers (cc Mert):

With some trepidation, I am passing on this message to see if any of our
list members is able to respond authoritatively.

Mert:
Your question is certainly one on which I have no knowledge. Hopefully one
of our list members with an interest in such topics will be able to help.
Best of luck.

-----Original Message-----
From: Mert Aydogdu [mailto:aytash@aytash.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 10:26 AM
To: ronallarson@qwest.net
Subject: Gel Ethanol

Hello Ron,

I am producing gelled ethanols. I want to upgrade ethanol content more then
%75 (%80)
I am using triethanolamine (now I am producing %72) , Can I change
triethanol as triisopranolamine then can it be gel (at %80)?
Can I change water and can I use another flammable product to make gel?

Best Regards,
Mert Aydogdu
Aytas Ind. & Trade Inc.
(Member of Executive Board)
www.aytash.com www.searchethanol.com
aytash@aytash.com info@searchethanol.com
TEL:90 532 2131117 FAX:90 232 4840128
ICQ: 26576549

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From mheat at mha-net.org Tue Nov 12 03:27:16 2002
From: mheat at mha-net.org (Norbert Senf)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:26 2004
Subject: refractory materials
In-Reply-To: <md90tu0fg03spbe4d253toqq653vagfksg@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20021112071742.00caa500@pop.registeredsite.com>

At 09:09 PM 2002-11-11 -0600, Harmon Seaver wrote:

>Meanwhile, check this out:
>
>http://home.attbi.com/~wasser/NEMES/MakeICR.html
>
>Nice perlite with refractory cement.

Interesting article. "Furnace cement" is fireclay and sodium silicate,
which opens up the possibility of low cost local versions. I'm guessing it
would work with other aggregates as well, such as vermiculite and pumice.

Norbert
----------------------------------------
Norbert Senf---------- mheat@mha-net.org-nospam
Masonry Stove Builders (remove -nospam)
RR 5, Shawville------- www.heatkit.com
Quebec J0X 2Y0-------- fax:-----819.647.6082
---------------------- voice:---819.647.5092

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From snkm at btl.net Tue Nov 12 05:25:28 2002
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:26 2004
Subject: How to post in plain text
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20021112075339.0095f100@wgs1.btl.net>

At 08:33 AM 11/12/2002 +0530, A.D. Karve wrote:
>Dear Peter and others
>I agree with you that my compatriots are often unnecessarily verbose, but
>you should have directed your diatribe to the originator of the long message
>received by you and not to the stoves discussion group. I don't think that
>any of the Indian stovers are guilty of the offence described by you.
>Yours
>Dr.A.D.Karve
>President,
>Appropriate Rural Technology Institute
>Pune, India

Dear Dr. Karve;

Indeed you are correct. But I have a few old Email acquaintances in India
-- and I am sorry to say -- none of them have been able to break the habit
of using micro-soft Email products -- and none of them have bothered to
find out how to set that bloatware to send messages in standard ASCII text
-- as you have just done.

We stay friends just the same -- but it makes me wonder what is going on in
India!

I know from the friends I do communicate with there that Internet (at least
in some areas) is very expensive and "slow" -- so one would think that
efficient messaging would be a first priority. Yet -- it is most obviously
not --

OK -- for all of you out there that might be curious how to set up
Micro-Soft Bloatware to properly communicate efficiently in information
transfer on a personal level -- or to a list -- I append the following.

And please -- I am not attacking anyone -- just suggesting that the
situation can be improved.

My apologies to Tom and Ron -- do not have time to edit out refs to you
both in this text appended. There pobably are other items of no interest to
this subject in there -- just ignor those.

Peter Singfield / Belize

****************************

At 07:32 AM 8/12/2002 -0600, you wrote:
>
>Peter - Tom Reed's message today reminded me that I should have also sent
>this to you. Tom Miles is our main contact to crest - where we need to make
>most changes in what you receive.
>
> I confess I don't know how to modify my Outlook program to do any better.
>Can you give any leads that I can try out and then pass on to others?
>
>Ron
>

Hi Ron;

I am in over my head with to much work at present -- Use the old Eudora 3.0
-- which is plain text only -- so have to learn Outlook commands to help
you guys -- bad timing -- but here goes.

In Outlook -- top tool bar -- click open "Tools" --

Then "Options"

When that menu pops up -- "Preferences" folder

Then under Email -- Click the "Email Options" tag.

Now -- starting on the bottom part of that menu:

"On Replies and Forwards"

First selection:

"When replying to a message"

Select among choices:

"Prefix each line of original message"

Then jump to the next selection bar:

"When Forwarding a message"

Chose "Include Original Message Text"

Then jump to next selection bar:

"Prefix each line with"

Here you have to type in a ">" -- that is a single greater than sign.

Now hit "OK" on the bottom -- saving those changes -- and this brings you
back to the top menu -- of Options.

OK -- that is the first part --

Onwards!!

Now -- while still in the Options top menu --

Click the "Mail Format" file/folder tab.

This brings you to a new menu.

"Message Format" is the first/top area.

There you see this line:

"Chose a format for outgoing mail and change advanced settings"

Under that is:

"Send in this message format:"

with a box at the end of that line.

Hit the down arrow tab and you get a selection of 3 styles

Chose "Plain Text"

Now -- directly under that you have a box with this line:

"Use MicroSoft Word to edit Email messages"

Leave that box blank -- no check in there.

Below this you have another tag called "settings"

Click on this --

a menu pops up saying "Plain Text Settings"

Under message format:

Click on "MIME"

On the "Encode Text Using" -- chose "None"

At the bottom after this is:

"Automatically Wrap at" set you line length. I normally use "76"

Now -- just hit the OK's -- and your back in outlook -- and everything is
now supposed to be OK.

Advise you try this all -- Email me -- and we'll see how it is working.

Then you can put all the above together -- with probable corrections -- and
post that to the list -- or Tom -- or preferably the "world" of all mail
lists.

Don't worry -- this "event" occurs on every mail list -- and people soon
get with it. Makes for much simpler info transfer.

Now -- one last point.

For charts -- etc -- very difficult to post in ASCII text. We used to
simply send Email attachments in Word -- or whatever was "common".

But now -- since virus comes in files attached -- the right thing to do is
have a WWW site where this stuff can be posted. This is referred to in the
ASCII text Email.

Such as:

You can find charts and references for the Brite Star Steam reformation
process at:

http://tzabcan.com/gas/BriteStar/TechnicalOverview.zip

By the way -- you might find that "example" quire interesting --

So as an experiment -- download it.

It is also another 3rd world "trick". Using "Zip" to compress huge files to
make easier info transfer.

It would be really neat if every mail list could have a WWW site to mount
such, One ends up with an incredible library of data in no time at all in
this manner.

No one gets bloatware blasted -- neither can they catch or spread a virus.

We evolve with the changing times -- or we stagnate.

Back to work for me -- Peter

And oh -- you have my permission to post any or all of this to anyone -- or
any list.

Peter Singfield
Xaibe Village
Corozal District
Belize, Central America

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From andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com Tue Nov 12 14:33:52 2002
From: andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com (AJH)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:26 2004
Subject: refractory materials
In-Reply-To: <1036520002.3dc80a42090f7@www.epud.net>
Message-ID: <co03tus7r88eks2r5i3ddlhm0ahncc3ut8@4ax.com>

On Mon, 11 Nov 2002 21:09:28 -0600, Harmon Seaver
<hseaver@cybershamanix.com> wrote:

>I think perlite 6:1, but I'll have to look it up.
>
>Meanwhile, check this out:
>
>http://home.attbi.com/~wasser/NEMES/MakeICR.html
>
>Nice perlite with refractory cement.

This looks like the thing to try, thanks for the link. In fact what I
was calling fireclay is this furnace cement, the brand is pyruma here
in UK. As I said it makes a wash that seems ok. I wonder if this is
the same cement that Dan referred to?

I have to finish my current task of extracting ~60tonnes/day biomass
onto transport before I have time to weld and insulate the lid.

AJH

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From crispin at newdawn.sz Tue Nov 12 20:50:58 2002
From: crispin at newdawn.sz (Crispin)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:26 2004
Subject: refractory materials
Message-ID: <003501c28ad8$035b9da0$ca21fea9@home>

Dear Stovers

> I like the expanded steel idea, I was considering chicken wire.

For those living in places that do not have expanded sheet metal or where
small chicken wire is very expensive, there are two hand made alternatives:

One is called "Square Mesh" and the other is called Diamond Stucco Mesh (R)

In Liberia we made square mesh (which looks like tiny chainlink fence with
square holes instead of diamonds) to a size of 15mm. It is made on a long
thin jig and can be fabricated locally. The DSMesh is a true chain link
(known as diamond mesh to some) of a small size. The machine is
considerably more expensive but still hand operated. It can make about 50
sq metres a day. This material is available in South Africa made from 0.9mm
galv for regular stucco applications or 1 and 1.2mm stainless steel wire
which can take very high temps.

The idea is to make a ferrocement shell. The 'ferro' part can be anything
with a small enough grid to hold it together after it cracks.

The equipment to make both products is available from New Dawn Engineering
in Swaziland.

Regards
Crispin

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From crispin at newdawn.sz Tue Nov 12 20:53:00 2002
From: crispin at newdawn.sz (Crispin)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:26 2004
Subject: How to post in plain text
Message-ID: <003601c28ad8$046fccc0$ca21fea9@home>

Dear Stovers

Before sending mail with Outlook Express, use the command Alt+O,x and then
paste in the message you want to send. This will automatically remove
everything except plain text.

Regards
Crispin

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From das at eagle-access.net Tue Nov 12 23:25:32 2002
From: das at eagle-access.net (Das)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:26 2004
Subject: Paper Clay insulating refractory
Message-ID: <200211130840.gAD8evY03211@saturn.eagle-access.net>

The book "Paper Clay" by Rosette Gault could guide us in some good
directions. It lists perlite as a clay filler.
Perlite shrinks above cone 8 to leave nice void. It needs chamotte grogg
to prevent brittleness. Goes brittle at cone 10. Also makes a good fast
one fire raku body.
Formula by weight: 20-25% perlite, 2-5% grog, balance clay

Paper pulp clay mixture can give good wet working strength with very high
pulp content. The pulp burns out to leave a very low density insulating
ceramic.

A. Das
Original Sources/Biomass Energy Foundation
Box 7137, Boulder, CO 80306
das@eagle-access.net

----------
> From: Harmon Seaver <hseaver@cybershamanix.com>
> To: Tom Reed <tombreed@attbi.com>
> Cc: Dean Still <dstill@epud.net>; Stoves <Stoves@crest.org>; Agua Das
<das@eagle-access.net>
> Subject: Re: Tuffa vs Approvechite
> Date: Thursday, October 24, 2002 9:18 PM
>
> Seems like tufa would be something that could be ground up and then
> "recreated" on site in molds.
>
> "Tufa is formed when water evaporates from lime-rich waters, leaving
calcite
> (calcium carbonate) to crystallize, often with impurities of iron oxides
(rust),
> which give tufa its yellow and red coloration."
> "Tufa is formed on cliffs, caves and quarry faces where limestone is
naturally
> occurring. This rock can form very quickly if conditions are favourable.
Plants,
> mosses and invertebrates often become encrusted in the calcite, and
preserved as
> fossils."
>
> http://www.tufa.bc.ca/tufa_history.htm
>
> --
> Harmon Seaver
> CyberShamanix
> http://www.cybershamanix.com
>
> "War is just a racket ... something that is not what it seems to the
> majority of people. Only a small group knows what its about. It is
> conducted for the benefit of the very few at the expense of the
> masses." --- Major General Smedley Butler, 1933
>
> "Our overriding purpose, from the beginning through to the present
> day, has been world domination - that is, to build and maintain the
> capacity to coerce everybody else on the planet: nonviolently, if
> possible, and violently, if necessary. But the purpose of US foreign
> policy of domination is not just to make the rest of the world jump
> through hoops; the purpose is to faciliate our exploitation of
> resources."
> - Ramsey Clark, former US Attorney General
> http://www.thesunmagazine.org/bully.html
>
> -
> Stoves List Archives and Website:
> http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200209/
> http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
> >
> Stoves List Moderators:
> Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
> Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
>
> Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon
>
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> >
> For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
>
>http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Chambers/Chambers.htm

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From tombreed at attbi.com Wed Nov 13 05:08:56 2002
From: tombreed at attbi.com (Tom Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:26 2004
Subject: Surrogate emission measurements
Message-ID: <013c01c28add$ccfb6c30$a48cfd0c@TOMBREED>

Dear All:

We had an informal meeting with Tami Bond here in Denver last night and a
number of issues came up.

We could probably (and maybe should) spend $10,000 on equipment and $100,000
on salaries in measuring stove emissions. However, if our aim is to improve
village cooking, we mostly need low cost meters that will tell us the
difference between high and low emission stoves.

Our resident electronic/emission wizzard, Agua Das, claimed to have low cost
sensors for CO, CO2, O2, CH4. I hope he will elaborate.

~~~~~
The Nighthawk CO meters contain a $5 sensor and mostly fancy alarms etc,
selling for $30-$60 anywhere in US.

I said that CO was a good surrogate for all other emissions with the
following caveats:

CO results from incomplete combustion, either too much, too little air or
bad mixing.

Improper charcoal combustion can emit very high levels of CO, even though
there is no smoke.

Improper wood combustion will also emit high levels of CO, but
simultaneously you will usually see smoke. So visible smoke is a surrogate
for CO.

~~~~~~
Charcoal cooking is said to be healthier (but much more expensive) than wood
cooking, and is generally used in the city while wood cooking is relegated
to open air country. Smoke causes lung irritation, glaucoma, ..., while CO
causes death.

Does anyone have any opinion or data as to which is the greater problem?

~~~~~~~
While I support responsible measurement of emissions, I deplore spending
much time or money defining bad conditions rather than fixing them.

I remember my early days at SERI/NREL when 10 X as much money was spent in
trying to more accurately define the quantity of biomass by satelite
measurements rather than developing the obvious enormous quantities already
available. Let's not get in that bind here at STOVES.

Onward to cleaner cooking, TOM REED
BEF WOODGAS STOVEWORKS

Dr. Thomas B. Reed
1810 Smith Rd., Golden, CO 80401
tombreed@attbi.com; 303 278 0558 Phone/Fax

BEGIN:VCARD
VERSION:2.1
N:Reed;Thomas
FN:Thomas Reed
EMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:tombreed@home.com
REV:20021113T062754Z
END:VCARD

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From ronallarson at qwest.net Wed Nov 13 13:54:40 2002
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:26 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Gasification tax credits
In-Reply-To: <011701c28a6f$7ba4dc40$6601a8c0@tommain>
Message-ID: <NGBBKDEHILILFNJPHEFIOEDECEAA.ronallarson@qwest.net>

<FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>Richard:
<FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>
<FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>I don't remember seeing the subject of natural gas recently
on "stoves" - but I feel it is important for more people to be worried about its
near-term availability - so suggest looking at these sites for anyone interested
in this topic:
<FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>
<FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>1. Work of Matt Simmons and his investment associates (<A
href="http://www.simmonsco-intl.com/domino/html/research.nsf/$$ViewTemplate+For+news?openform">http://www.simmonsco-intl.com/domino/html/research.nsf/$$ViewTemplate+For+news?openform).
I haven't looked recently, but every time I look he is very pessimistic.
Unfortunately, this has not transformed into any enthusiasm for
renewables. I think he is mainly looking for a decade or two of relief
with LNG imports (there is agreement that there is a lot more world-wide
natural gas than in the US.) I gather Simmons has been close to the
Administration - but they must not believe him - as I see no evidence of any
sign there is a looming shortage in US policy.
<FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>
<FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>2. Look at <A
href="http://www.mnforsustain.org/udall_and_andrews_methane_madness.htm">http://www.mnforsustain.org/udall_and_andrews_methane_madness.htm.
Other sites are mentioned there. Randy Udall and Steve Andrews
have put a lot of time into this and find nothing positive. They are
not very complimentary about our EIA - who I think are only projecting future
gas availability based on past economic behavior - which I am pretty sure is
based on their being the huge supplies out there that some analysts
project.
<FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>
<FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>3. Look up the work of Dr. Emil Attanasi of the USGS, such as <A
href="http://energy.er.usgs.gov/products/Factsheets/Fs024-98/">http://energy.er.usgs.gov/products/Factsheets/Fs024-98/
I find
this to be very disturbing - his future prices and supply not at all
close to what the EIA says. By law, the EIA is supposed to consult with
USGS and I have been told they don't. My personal recommendation is
to be very skeptical of what you see projected by EIA. Their historical
records are the only place to go, unless you have big money to go the real
sources that EIA can't quote, because the data is
proprietary..
<FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>
How
does this relate to 'stoves"? As soon as gas and oil (same story on
world-wide basis - and same three web sites) are in short supply, then
developing countries will find their prices rapidly rising and supply
disruptions more common as the US grabs up the limited supplies. More
pressure on biomass and also rising prices.
<FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>

<FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----From: Tom Miles
[mailto:tmiles@trmiles.com]Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 10:18
AMTo: OConor.Richard; 'Tom Reed'Cc: gasification;
StovesSubject: Re: GAS-L: Gasification tax
credits
Richard,

We had quite a discussion on the topic of natural
gas some time ago. Several references were cited within the discussion. Go to
the CREST site www.crest.org and enter
"natural gas" under Search.

Also go to the US Department of Energy Energy
Information Administration <A
href="http://www.eia.doe.gov/">http://www.eia.doe.gov/ and search for
natural gas. The EIA reports do a pretty good job of
representing energy sources. They also cite many references.

Regards,

Tom Miles

<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
----- Original Message -----
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black">From:
<A title=Richard.OConor@minergy.com
href="mailto:Richard.OConor@minergy.com">OConor.Richard
To: <A title=tombreed@attbi.com
href="mailto:tombreed@attbi.com">'Tom Reed' ; <A
title=tmiles@trmiles.com href="mailto:tmiles@trmiles.com">Tom Miles

Cc: <A title=gasification@crest.org
href="mailto:gasification@crest.org">gasification ; <A
title=Stoves@crest.org href="mailto:Stoves@crest.org">Stoves
Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 6:24
AM
Subject: RE: GAS-L: Gasification tax
credits

Hi, A few weeks ago, somebody posted an article regarding
the limited availablity of natural gas in the U.S. Does anyone have a
copy of this article or any suggestions where I can find it?
-----Original Message----- From: Tom
Reed [<A
href="mailto:tombreed@attbi.com">mailto:tombreed@attbi.com]
Sent: Monday, October 21, 2002 12:56 AM <FONT
size=2>To: Tom Miles Cc: gasification; Stoves
Subject: GAS-L: Gasification tax credits
Dear Tom M:
Thanks for the elucidation on tax credits below. It
came simultaneously with Ron asking for elucidation
on tax credits. I'm filing it by answering and
forwarding...
~~~~ Let me (again) plead for all to
put meaningful SUBJECT headings on letters that
diverge significantly from an earlier string. That way one can
easily search past Emails in private files for
particular subjects. "TERMINOLOGY" (Tom's
heading) wouldn't have turned up TAX CREDITS, but by resending this
under that subject name I'll be able to find it
easily....
Please try
...
TOM REED
----- Original Message ----- From:
"Tom Miles" <tmiles@trmiles.com> To: "Stoves"
<stoves@crest.org> Sent: Sunday, October 20,
2002 11:09 AM Subject: Re: Re "terminology"

> Alternative Fuel Production Credit (Section 29 of the
Internal Revenue Code), or <FONT
size=2>> "gasification tax credit" >
> The credit started in 1980. It is due to end December
31, 2002 although credits on <FONT
size=2>> some facilities will be received until 2008. I believe the
period for qualification <FONT
size=2>> for the tax credit expired in June 1998 in it's last extension.
By that time >
enterprising tax attorneys had broadened the definition of a gasifier
to include > boilers
operating in a staged combustion mode with the air required for
"gasifying" > coming up through
the grate. It has also been used extensively for methane <FONT
size=2>from > landfills. Other extensions have
been proposed but none have been approved as far
as > I know. >
> One positive effect of the credit was to force many
small boiler makers who wanted to <FONT
size=2>> take advantage of the credit to make their systems more
efficient. There were never <FONT
size=2>> more than half a dozen large industrial scale or independent
power systems built >
under the credit. Most of these were in the period 1984-1990. To
my knowledge only > one
is still operating. For some installations it provided substantial
income. See > <A
href="http://www.drykiln2000.com/capstone_turbine/section29.htm"
target=_blank>http://www.drykiln2000.com/capstone_turbine/section29.htm
> > Following is an excerpt
from a March 1998 BERA description of tax credits <FONT
size=2>found at > <A
href="http://www.bera1.org/3-26-98.html"
target=_blank>http://www.bera1.org/3-26-98.html <FONT
size=2>> "a tax credit is exactly that, a direct reduction in the tax
that is due on taxable >
income. An example is the biomass gasification tax credit under IRC
Section 29. The > fuel gases
from landfill gas recovery systems and biomass gasifiers <FONT
size=2>qualify for the > credit as long as
certain conditions are satisfied. The amount of the <FONT
size=2>credit is > inversely related to the price
of oil; when the price of oil increases, the credit
is > reduced. For 1997, it was $1.05/MMBtu of
fuel gas produced and sold to an independent
> third party, so the credit can be substantial." See
also > <A
href="http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/servicerpt/subsidy/box_txt.html"
target=_blank>http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/servicerpt/subsidy/box_txt.html
and > <A href="http://spee.org/pdfs/taxs29.pdf"
target=_blank>http://spee.org/pdfs/taxs29.pdf <A
href="http://www.lfgtech.com/tax_credits.htm"
target=_blank>http://www.lfgtech.com/tax_credits.htm <FONT
size=2>etc. > > Tom
Miles > >
> ----- Original Message ----- <FONT
size=2>> From: "Ron Larson" <ronallarson@qwest.net>
> To: <andrew.heggie@dtn.ntl.com>; "Stoves"
<stoves@crest.org>; "Paul S. Anderson"
> <psanders@ilstu.edu>; "Crispin"
<crispin@newdawn.sz>; "Mike Antal" >
<mantal@hawaii.edu>; "Tom Reed" <tombreed@attbi.com>; "Dean
Still" <dstill@epud.net> <FONT
size=2>> Sent: Saturday, October 19, 2002 9:38 PM <FONT
size=2>> Subject: Re "terminology" >
> > > Hi all:
> > > > This is
intended to agree with most everything I hear from Andrew and
> > mostly from Tom - as a part of the terminology
thread started by Paul (and I <FONT
size=2>> > have changed the subject heading back to <FONT
size=2>> > "terminology". I am not happy with Paul's use of the
word "gasifier". > > <FONT
size=2>> > 1. Tom Reed said today re terminology: " The
distinction is not trivial <FONT
size=2>> > since there are often tax credits for <FONT
size=2>> > gasification and not for combustion of biomass.
Testifying in court, I > > would say that if
in principal you can put a septum between the <FONT
size=2>gasification > > section and the
combustion section and remove samples of combustible gas <FONT
size=2>> > requiring more air, it is a gasifier. If sufficient
air is supplied in one >
> step for "substantially" complete combustion (like the pellet
stoves), it is > > a
combustor. > > >
> (RWL1): I wish that we had this tax credit problem to contend
with. If we > >
did, I might change some of the following. I would say that
Tom's remark is > >
true on the gasification list - where I think they almost never use
the term > >
"pyrolysis". Gasifying people, as Andrew has emphasized, try for
a minimum > > amount
of charcoal, for continuous operation, - and often are adding
steam. > > You (Paul) and I
(and Andrew a lot) are not doing any of these. So <FONT
size=2>> > everything Tom says about the septum is true - but the
septum criterion also >
> applies to pyrolysis units - which I claim are a different animal
from > > gasifiers. <FONT
size=2>> > >
> > - <FONT
size=2>> Stoves List Archives and Website: >
<A href="http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200209/"
target=_blank>http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200209/
> <A
href="http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/"
target=_blank>http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
> > > Stoves List
Moderators: > Ron Larson,
ronallarson@qwest.net > Elsen L. Karstad,
elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com >
> Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
> <A
href="http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html"
target=_blank>http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html
Bioenergy > <A
href="http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html"
target=_blank>http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html
Gasification > <A
href="http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html"
target=_blank>http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html
Carbon > > List-Post:
<mailto:stoves@crest.org>
> List-Help: <<A
href="mailto:stoves-help@crest.org">mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
> List-Unsubscribe: <<A
href="mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org">mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
> List-Subscribe: <<A
href="mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org">mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>
> > > For information
about CHAMBERS STOVES > <FONT
size=2>><A
href="http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Chambers/Chambers.htm"
target=_blank>http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Chambers/Chambers.htm
> >
Gasification List Moderator: Tom
Reed, Biomass Energy Foundation, tombreed@attbi.com Biomass =
Energy Foundation, www.woodgas.com <FONT
size=2>List-Post: <<A
href="mailto:gasification@crest.org">mailto:gasification@crest.org>
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href="mailto:gasification-help@crest.org">mailto:gasification-help@crest.org>
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href="mailto:gasification-subscribe@crest.org">mailto:gasification-subscribe@crest.org>
- Gasification List Archives <A
href="http://www.crest.org/discussion/gasification/200202/"
target=_blank>http://www.crest.org/discussion/gasification/200202/
Bioenergy 2002 <A href="http://www.bioenergy2002.org/"
target=_blank>http://www.bioenergy2002.org/ 200
kWe CHP Discussion <A
href="http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/gasification/200kWCHP.html"
target=_blank>http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/gasification/200kWCHP.html
Gasification Reference <A
href="http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html"
target=_blank>http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html

>

From luizmagri at yahoo.com Wed Nov 13 16:20:48 2002
From: luizmagri at yahoo.com (Luiz Alberto Magri)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:26 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Surrogate emission measurements
In-Reply-To: <013c01c28add$ccfb6c30$a48cfd0c@TOMBREED>
Message-ID: <20021114011804.72638.qmail@web11704.mail.yahoo.com>

Dear Tom,

I am not emissions specialisty, but since you have
asked for opinions, I think my own is OK.

I would never bother regarding CO more than protecting
people against over exposition. As far as I understand
CO will not be a cause of permanent deasease (except
in the indirect way of brain an tissues damage caused
by lack of oxygen).

There is the same for, say, chlorine and ammonia. Both
will be likely a cause of death because they will burn
the internal parts of one's body and choke the victim.
But if it is a minor exposition, one can fully recover
from the injuries.

Luiz Magri
Rio de Janeiro

--- Tom Reed <tombreed@attbi.com> wrote:

> ~~~~~~
> Charcoal cooking is said to be healthier (but much
> more expensive) than wood
> cooking, and is generally used in the city while
> wood cooking is relegated
> to open air country. Smoke causes lung irritation,
> glaucoma, ..., while CO
> causes death.
>
> Does anyone have any opinion or data as to which is
> the greater problem?
>
> ~~~~~~~

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos
http://launch.yahoo.com/u2

From nariphaltan at sancharnet.in Wed Nov 13 19:35:46 2002
From: nariphaltan at sancharnet.in (nariphaltan)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:26 2004
Subject: Thanks for allowing me to join the group.
Message-ID: <002301c28b97$19b04460$af62013d@vsnl.net.in>

Hello!

I have been reading the discussions and find them interesting. I am sure
your readers may enjoy reading about our work on lanterns at; <A
href="http://nariphaltan.virtualave.net/lantern.htm">http://nariphaltan.virtualave.net/lantern.htm

Regards.

Anil K. RajvanshiDirectorNimbkar Agricultural Research
InstituteP.O.Box 44, Phaltan-415523Maharashtra, IndiaPh:
91-2166-22396/20945Fax: 91-2166-21328E-mail: <A
href="mailto:nariphaltan@sancharnet.in">nariphaltan@sancharnet.in

<A
href="http://nariphaltan.virtualave.net">http://nariphaltan.virtualave.net<A
href="http://www.nariphaltan.org">http://www.nariphaltan.org

From snkm at btl.net Thu Nov 14 07:30:44 2002
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:26 2004
Subject: Information transfer -- 3rd world style.
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20021114102341.009c3680@wgs1.btl.net>

Dear Listers;

First -- let me congratulate Anil K. Rajvanshi on his message to this list
presenting the Noorie lantern concept.

It immediatly triggered thoughts on another long term project we have
running at village level in India. And below is the message sent to that
person in relationship to this topic.

But mostly -- I believe this all is a fine example of information transfer
by WWW using concise -- efficient -- methology.

I realize a number of the more modern members of this list will have
problems (due to the anti-virus and fire walls) receiving these kind of
messages.

I do sympathize -- but -- that is the price one pays for going the
"Bloat-ware" route.

The base line topic is a simple 100 watt thermal power plant -- based on
the Noorie lantern -- as "furnace" -- but it wanders all about -- some
might be interested in the new rechargeable batter technology -- if so --
just follow Urls presented.

Peter Singfield
Xaibe Village
Belize

At 07:53 AM 10/3/2002 +0500, you wrote:
>Hi Peter,
>
>It is always a pleasure reading your e-mails. It's amazing that you can
>turn adversities into strengths! I am keen to know how your 'Listers'
>prototype refrigerant working fluid based power plant turns out.
>
>I have no idea who or how reliable this Rajan person in Chennai is? Do not
>hesitate to ask me if you need any help for making enquiries. I am afraid I
>have no work there at present, but I was in Chennai for a couple of days in
>August, and I could ask my friends there to make enquiries on your behalf.
>
>We all worry about fire in the hands of dangerous megalomanics, but I am
>the eternal optimist. Right now, I am still immersed in starting up our
>Sustainable Development Center at a village in our state, and I hope I will
>have something pleasant to write about it in a few more months time.
>
>Regards,
>
>Subra.

Dear Subra;

Getting back on line in regards to a very economical village power plant --
say 100 watts.

Look over this lamp:

http://nariphaltan.virtualave.net/lantern.htm

Flue temperatures (after light produced) are a "fixed" 500 C -- perfect for
a very high efficiency refrigerant power (Micro) plant.

And further -- could do a good steam power plant as well -- using a small
gasoline motor -- such as the "weed-wacker" small gasoline engines --
adapted into a true uniflow stream engine.

The idea being 12 volts could be produced whenever they use "lights".

Or -- a radiant boiler could be wrapped around the mantle -- and the unit
would be pure micro-plant only.

The amount of very high temperature recovered from the radiance of
combustion (the mantel) is perfect "ratio" of energy for a super heater.

In that case -- this device would not need refrigerant working fluid --
steam would be fine -- to get respectable efficiencies -- say at least 25%.

We could even work up that small linear alternator design --

True -- fuel is limited to kerosene or alcohol. But alcohol is easy to
produce from many sources --

And all plant oils can replace kerosene. Such as used cooking oils??

There is some interesting new technology in regards to rechargeable batteries:

http://www.ceic.unsw.edu.au/centers/vrb/overview.htm

A fine product for India to get involved in.

There you go -- some new thoughts --

This lamp is expected to market for:

"Cost of Noorie lantern : Costing analysis reveals that Noorie lantern will
cost Rs. 250/- in mass production."

A diesel injector -- as found on my India Built old style Lister diesel --
would be perfect for a feed pump for this device -- and they are also
extremely economic -- reliable -- and made in India!

To put things in a clearer perspective -- have file attached a drawing
showing -- roughly -- how an existing linear motor can be "modified" to do
this job.

BioEnergy Lists: Improved Biomass Cooking Stoves

November 2002 Biomass Cooking Stoves Archive