October 2002 Gasification Archive

For more information to help people develop better stoves for cooking with biomass fuels in developing regions, please see our web site: http://www.bioenergylists.org

From lanny at roman.net Tue Oct 1 02:46:46 2002
From: lanny at roman.net (Lanny Henson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:13 2004
Subject: vegetable oil as fuel
In-Reply-To: <000201c268a3$0829a4a0$0b50c5cb@adkarvepn2.vsnl.net.in>
Message-ID: <001701c26950$f232a260$5776f342@oemcomputer>

Harmon, Where did you get the notion that waist vegetable oil is dumped into
landfills? I have been around the restaurant business for many years and I
do not see that happening. The health department regulations require food
service business to have a waist oil container which is furnished for free
by the fat recycle folks and they pick it up routinely. As far as burning it
for fuel, well that's great but there is not that much of it and common
sense tells me that it will make little difference in our dependence on
petroleum.
You implied that we (USA) attract other countries to steal there oil! Why do
you hate the USA?
Lanny

----- Original Message -----
From: Harmon Seaver <hseaver@cybershamanix.com>
To: Ray <raywije@eureka.lk>
Cc: A.D. Karve <adkarve@pn2.vsnl.net.in>; <stoves@crest.org>
Sent: Monday, September 30, 2002 10:21 PM
Subject: Re: vegetable oil as fuel

> On Tue, Oct 01, 2002 at 10:46:53AM +0600, Ray wrote:
> > I greatly appreciated your response, Dr Karve, to the question how we
> > 'dispose' of waste vegetable oil... That question was sadly a very
'affluent
> > nation' attitude
>
> On the contrary, I really don't think my question was in any way an
"affluent
> nation" attitude. Vegetable oil is reused here as well, but there comes a
point
> when it definitely is not good for cooking anymore. I'm sure that Dr.
Karve is
> correct in saying that in India (and I'm sure other countries) the oil
from the
> better restaurants then goes to poorer ones, or perhaps to individuals,
but that
> was my question, which he answered.
> The point was that many of us are trying to reuse the waste oil much of
which
> now goes to landfills here in the US, by turning it into fuel. This has a
many
> benefits -- it keeps it out of the landfills, and doesn't pollute when we
drive,
> and decreases dependance on fossil fuels. It also helps decrease the need
for
> the US to attack other nations like Iraq so they can steal their oil.
>
> >and the cause of much of the pollution we ALL suffer, as we
> > (in other parts of the under-developed world) also tend to emulate such
> > practises (waste disposal rather than waste-conversion) believing that
to be
> > 'modern'.
> >
> > I was also very 'with' your observations regarding the future of
methane..
> > natural-gas etc. It has hitherto been a problem to transport over long
> > distances requiring compression (CNG) and even freezing (LNG)...Not for
> > long, 'though! I've been attending a conference in Britain on airship
> > technology (I have a 'crush' for flying machines!) where SHELL described
its
> > trials with VAST airships...many times the size of the Hindenberg and
even
> > the Titanic... carrying NG (very much LTA (lighter-than-air) at almost
> > atmospheric pressure inside and used even for powering the engines.
These
> > require no compression or liquifying and can carry it straight from the
well
> > to the end-user... no port-facilities, no pipes,.. all for a fraction of
the
> > cost even of compressing. NG (mainly CH4) is just one step from the
> > Hydrogen-energy era and being so much lighter than air... hence this
unique
> > method of transport.
>
> Yes, producer gas from biomass gasification can be transported the same
way.
>
>
> > Folks may ask "What about the danger of airships such
> > as Hindenberg catching fire?" ... All airship people are now convinced
that
> > it was the outer covering of the Hindenberg which caught fire (in an
> > electrical storm)and the H2 was probably the last to combust... and then
it
> > would have 'whoofed' into steam/water ... not the clouds of flame and
smoke
> > which the pictures show of the butyl-fabric catching fire. Please pardon
the
> > deviation away from priorities towards combustion in stoves!
> >
> > Ray Wijewardene, Colombo, Sri Lanka.
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: A.D. Karve [mailto:adkarve@pn2.vsnl.net.in]
> > Sent: Monday, September 30, 2002 9:31 PM
> > To: Harmon Seaver
> > Cc: stoves@crest.org
> > Subject: vegetable oil as fuel
> >
> >
> > Dear Mr. Seaver,
> > we never had any waste vegetable oil in India. When we deep fry
something
> > and a little bit of it is left over, it is poured out carefully and used
> > again. I have heard about the epoxides and other nasty things that such
an
> > oil contains, but we reuse it in any case. Now that McDonalds have come
into
> > India, we may start getting waste vegetable oil, but it would most
probably
> > be used by other eateries in the poorer sections of the town. Because
India
> > is chronically short of vegetable oil, the organised soap industry is
not
> > allowed to use edible oils. The non-edible oils, except for castor oil
and
> > Jatropha oil, have generally a very dark colour, and generally also bad
> > smell. Since they cannot be used as such for soap making, nonedible
oils
> > are broken up into their component fatty acids, which are distilled to
> > purify them. It is these fatty acids that the soap industry uses. As far
as
> > fuel for internal combustion engines is concerned, people in India have
> > already started using biogas and producer gas for stationary engines. In
not
> > too distant a future, biologically produced methane may become available
as
> > compressed gas to be used as automotive fuel. The beauty of methane is
that
> > it can be produced from any organic waste and the procedure is so simple
> > that even an illiterate villager can produce methane in his backyard.
> > A.D.Karve
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Harmon Seaver <hseaver@cybershamanix.com>
> > To: A.D. Karve <adkarve@pn2.vsnl.net.in>
> > Cc: stoves@crest.org <stoves@crest.org>;
> > Stumpf@495-simon.ats.uni-hohenheim.de
> > <Stumpf@495-simon.ats.uni-hohenheim.de>
> > Date: Monday, September 30, 2002 1:45 AM
> > Subject: Re: Pressure stove using vegetable oil
> >
> >
> > >On Sun, Sep 29, 2002 at 01:00:08AM +0530, A.D. Karve wrote:
> > >> Dear Ron,
> > >> if one used vegetable oil as fuel, one would be depriving humans of a
> > high
> > >> calory item of food, and the soap and paint industry of its oils.
> > >
> > > That depends upon where you are, the making of biodiesel out of
> > vegetable
> > >oil is definitely becoming a hot commercial venture in Europe, Canada,
and
> > the
> > >US. Or just running diesels on straight vegetable oil, with some slight
> > >modifications of the vehicle. There is, at present, a tremendous amount
of
> > waste
> > >vegetable oil (WVO) from deep frying that goes into landfills and
should be
> > >instead used for fuel. I just recently bought a diesel van with the
express
> > >purpose of running it on biodiesel and SVO (straight vegetable oil) and
> > intend
> > >to never buy another gasoline fueled vehicle.
> > > What do people in India do with the WVO? Also there are vegetable
oils
> > which
> > >do not make good food.
> > >
> > >--
> > >Harmon Seaver
> > >CyberShamanix
> > >http://www.cybershamanix.com
> > >
> >
> >
> > -
> > Stoves List Archives and Website:
> > http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200209/
> > http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
> > >
> > Stoves List Moderators:
> > Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
> > Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
> >
> > Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
> > http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
> > http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
> > http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon
> >
> > List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
> > List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
> > List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
> > List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>
> > >
> > For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
> >
>http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Chambers/Chambers.htm
> >
> >
> >
> > -
> > Stoves List Archives and Website:
> > http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200209/
> > http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
> > >
> > Stoves List Moderators:
> > Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
> > Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
> >
> > Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
> > http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
> > http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
> > http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon
> >
> > List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
> > List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
> > List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
> > List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>
> > >
> > For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
> >
>http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Chambers/Chambers.htm
>
> --
> Harmon Seaver
> CyberShamanix
> http://www.cybershamanix.com
>
> -
> Stoves List Archives and Website:
> http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200209/
> http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
> >
> Stoves List Moderators:
> Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
> Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
>
> Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon
>
> List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
> List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
> List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>
> >
> For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
>
>http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Chambers/Chambers.htm
>
>

-
Stoves List Archives and Website:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200209/
http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
>
Stoves List Moderators:
Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com

Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon

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From Artsolar at aol.com Tue Oct 1 04:27:35 2002
From: Artsolar at aol.com (Artsolar@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:13 2004
Subject: vegetable oil as fuel
Message-ID: <b4.12a30c9d.2acaee1a@aol.com>

It also helps decrease the need for
the US to attack other nations like Iraq so they can steal their oil.

Please remove me from the list serve.

Art Lilley

From keith at journeytoforever.org Tue Oct 1 04:34:13 2002
From: keith at journeytoforever.org (Keith Addison)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:13 2004
Subject: vegetable oil as fuel
In-Reply-To: <000201c268a3$0829a4a0$0b50c5cb@adkarvepn2.vsnl.net.in>
Message-ID: <v04210109b9bf3e817064@[192.168.0.2]>

>Harmon, Where did you get the notion that waist vegetable oil is dumped into
>landfills? I have been around the restaurant business for many years and I
>do not see that happening. The health department regulations require food
>service business to have a waist oil container which is furnished for free
>by the fat recycle folks and they pick it up routinely. As far as burning it
>for fuel, well that's great but there is not that much of it and common
>sense tells me that it will make little difference in our dependence on
>petroleum.
>You implied that we (USA) attract other countries to steal there oil! Why do
>you hate the USA?
>Lanny

Estimates of the amount of waste cooking oil in the US range from 1.2
billion to 3 billion gallons a year (one source says 4 billion), and
probably about 10% of that is collected (that's the rate in most
industrialized countries, the US is very unlikely to be any better
than, say, Austria or Belgium).

I have seen this quote, but I don't have an attribution for it:
"Every year, U.S. businesses throw away enough waste vegetable oil to
replace 10% of the petroleum products consumed in the country." I
think it's an exaggeration, but probably not a very gross one.

The Wall Street Journal says US national output of restaurant grease
is three billion pounds a year, and much of it is dumped. See Wall
Street Journal June 4, 2001:
"Municipal Heart Attack: Illegal Dumping Of Fryer Grease, Fat Leads
to Infarctions".

I think that should be gallons, not pounds - that would only be about
300 million gallons, way too low. Anyway, a very large amount of WVO
is most definitely dumped into landfills in the US, and into sewers.

Harmon didn't say he hates the USA, by the way. However, that's the
way most of the people in the world seem to see it, including nearly
all the former US allies (with the exception of Israel and, to a
lesser extent, Australia).

Best wishes

Keith Addison
Journey to Forever
Handmade Projects
Osaka, Japan
http://journeytoforever.org/

>----- Original Message -----
>From: Harmon Seaver <hseaver@cybershamanix.com>
>To: Ray <raywije@eureka.lk>
>Cc: A.D. Karve <adkarve@pn2.vsnl.net.in>; <stoves@crest.org>
>Sent: Monday, September 30, 2002 10:21 PM
>Subject: Re: vegetable oil as fuel
>
>
> > On Tue, Oct 01, 2002 at 10:46:53AM +0600, Ray wrote:
> > > I greatly appreciated your response, Dr Karve, to the question how we
> > > 'dispose' of waste vegetable oil... That question was sadly a very
>'affluent
> > > nation' attitude
> >
> > On the contrary, I really don't think my question was in any way an
>"affluent
> > nation" attitude. Vegetable oil is reused here as well, but there comes a
>point
> > when it definitely is not good for cooking anymore. I'm sure that Dr.
>Karve is
> > correct in saying that in India (and I'm sure other countries) the oil
>from the
> > better restaurants then goes to poorer ones, or perhaps to individuals,
>but that
> > was my question, which he answered.
> > The point was that many of us are trying to reuse the waste oil much of
>which
> > now goes to landfills here in the US, by turning it into fuel. This has a
>many
> > benefits -- it keeps it out of the landfills, and doesn't pollute when we
>drive,
> > and decreases dependance on fossil fuels. It also helps decrease the need
>for
> > the US to attack other nations like Iraq so they can steal their oil.
> >
> > >and the cause of much of the pollution we ALL suffer, as we
> > > (in other parts of the under-developed world) also tend to emulate such
> > > practises (waste disposal rather than waste-conversion) believing that
>to be
> > > 'modern'.
> > >
> > > I was also very 'with' your observations regarding the future of
>methane..
> > > natural-gas etc. It has hitherto been a problem to transport over long
> > > distances requiring compression (CNG) and even freezing (LNG)...Not for
> > > long, 'though! I've been attending a conference in Britain on airship
> > > technology (I have a 'crush' for flying machines!) where SHELL described
>its
> > > trials with VAST airships...many times the size of the Hindenberg and
>even
> > > the Titanic... carrying NG (very much LTA (lighter-than-air) at almost
> > > atmospheric pressure inside and used even for powering the engines.
>These
> > > require no compression or liquifying and can carry it straight from the
>well
> > > to the end-user... no port-facilities, no pipes,.. all for a fraction of
>the
> > > cost even of compressing. NG (mainly CH4) is just one step from the
> > > Hydrogen-energy era and being so much lighter than air... hence this
>unique
> > > method of transport.
> >
> > Yes, producer gas from biomass gasification can be transported the same
>way.
> >
> >
> > > Folks may ask "What about the danger of airships such
> > > as Hindenberg catching fire?" ... All airship people are now convinced
>that
> > > it was the outer covering of the Hindenberg which caught fire (in an
> > > electrical storm)and the H2 was probably the last to combust... and then
>it
> > > would have 'whoofed' into steam/water ... not the clouds of flame and
>smoke
> > > which the pictures show of the butyl-fabric catching fire. Please pardon
>the
> > > deviation away from priorities towards combustion in stoves!
> > >
> > > Ray Wijewardene, Colombo, Sri Lanka.
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: A.D. Karve [mailto:adkarve@pn2.vsnl.net.in]
> > > Sent: Monday, September 30, 2002 9:31 PM
> > > To: Harmon Seaver
> > > Cc: stoves@crest.org
> > > Subject: vegetable oil as fuel
> > >
> > >
> > > Dear Mr. Seaver,
> > > we never had any waste vegetable oil in India. When we deep fry
>something
> > > and a little bit of it is left over, it is poured out carefully and used
> > > again. I have heard about the epoxides and other nasty things that such
>an
> > > oil contains, but we reuse it in any case. Now that McDonalds have come
>into
> > > India, we may start getting waste vegetable oil, but it would most
>probably
> > > be used by other eateries in the poorer sections of the town. Because
>India
> > > is chronically short of vegetable oil, the organised soap industry is
>not
> > > allowed to use edible oils. The non-edible oils, except for castor oil
>and
> > > Jatropha oil, have generally a very dark colour, and generally also bad
> > > smell. Since they cannot be used as such for soap making, nonedible
>oils
> > > are broken up into their component fatty acids, which are distilled to
> > > purify them. It is these fatty acids that the soap industry uses. As far
>as
> > > fuel for internal combustion engines is concerned, people in India have
> > > already started using biogas and producer gas for stationary engines. In
>not
> > > too distant a future, biologically produced methane may become available
>as
> > > compressed gas to be used as automotive fuel. The beauty of methane is
>that
> > > it can be produced from any organic waste and the procedure is so simple
> > > that even an illiterate villager can produce methane in his backyard.
> > > A.D.Karve
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Harmon Seaver <hseaver@cybershamanix.com>
> > > To: A.D. Karve <adkarve@pn2.vsnl.net.in>
> > > Cc: stoves@crest.org <stoves@crest.org>;
> > > Stumpf@495-simon.ats.uni-hohenheim.de
> > > <Stumpf@495-simon.ats.uni-hohenheim.de>
> > > Date: Monday, September 30, 2002 1:45 AM
> > > Subject: Re: Pressure stove using vegetable oil
> > >
> > >
> > > >On Sun, Sep 29, 2002 at 01:00:08AM +0530, A.D. Karve wrote:
> > > >> Dear Ron,
> > > >> if one used vegetable oil as fuel, one would be depriving humans of a
> > > high
> > > >> calory item of food, and the soap and paint industry of its oils.
> > > >
> > > > That depends upon where you are, the making of biodiesel out of
> > > vegetable
> > > >oil is definitely becoming a hot commercial venture in Europe, Canada,
>and
> > > the
> > > >US. Or just running diesels on straight vegetable oil, with some slight
> > > >modifications of the vehicle. There is, at present, a tremendous amount
>of
> > > waste
> > > >vegetable oil (WVO) from deep frying that goes into landfills and
>should be
> > > >instead used for fuel. I just recently bought a diesel van with the
>express
> > > >purpose of running it on biodiesel and SVO (straight vegetable oil) and
> > > intend
> > > >to never buy another gasoline fueled vehicle.
> > > > What do people in India do with the WVO? Also there are vegetable
>oils
> > > which
> > > >do not make good food.
> > > >
> > > >--
> > > >Harmon Seaver
> > > >CyberShamanix
> > > >http://www.cybershamanix.com

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From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Tue Oct 1 06:34:09 2002
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:13 2004
Subject: vegetable oil as fuel
In-Reply-To: <000201c268a3$0829a4a0$0b50c5cb@adkarvepn2.vsnl.net.in>
Message-ID: <20021001143039.GA23639@cybershamanix.com>

On Tue, Oct 01, 2002 at 06:44:23AM -0700, Lanny Henson wrote:
> Harmon, Where did you get the notion that waist vegetable oil is dumped into
> landfills? I have been around the restaurant business for many years and I
> do not see that happening. The health department regulations require food
> service business to have a waist oil container which is furnished for free
> by the fat recycle folks and they pick it up routinely. As far as burning it
> for fuel, well that's great but there is not that much of it and common
> sense tells me that it will make little difference in our dependence on
> petroleum.

It's not only dumped in landfills, it's also dumped in sewers -- most major
cities have a serious problem with it clogging the large sewer pipes, as has
been reported in the press. The fat recycling companies charge to pick it up,
so, regulations or not, many small restaurants dump it instead. And there is, as
Keith said, enormous amounts available. Just the WVO from one or two restaurants
each week is enough to fuel my car.

> You implied that we (USA) attract other countries to steal there oil! Why do
> you hate the USA?
> Lanny
>

If you really think the present plan of the Enron gang in the Whitehouse to
attack Iraq is for any reason than to control the Iraqi oilfields, I've got a
bridge to sell you. It's even a popular bumper sticker: "Nuke their ass and take
the gas".

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

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From willing at mb.sympatico.ca Tue Oct 1 07:34:40 2002
From: willing at mb.sympatico.ca (Scott Willing)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:13 2004
Subject: OT(?) Catalytic converters re: N.A. heating stoves
In-Reply-To: <00e301c2670a$a827a6e0$9a1e6c0c@default>
Message-ID: <3D9979C4.1401.12E37EBE@localhost>

On 28 Sep 2002 at 9:32, Harmon Seaver wrote:

[snip]

> Don't just add a heat exchanger, make it a secondary burning
> chamber as
> well. Put a 5 or even 10 gallon drum on top of the stove with
> adjustable air inlets where the smoke first comes into the stove.
> Maybe add a small blower to those inlets as well. Or, if your stove
> already has a secondary burning chamber, try adding a very small
> blower to that secondary air inlet.

If this is a viable approach (and I'm not questioning it) are there
commercial examples? Is the entire N.A. stove industry just rehashing
centuries-old designs, or is anyone actually doing something truly
progressive?

In order to insure my home I had to have an "approved" heating device
and chimney, installed according to the guidelines for those devices.
I'd love to experiment, but if I screw up and burn the place down
it's going to be my tough luck. As a complete amateur, I can't rule
out the possibility of doing exactly that.

-=s

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From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Tue Oct 1 08:43:53 2002
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:13 2004
Subject: OT(?) Catalytic converters re: N.A. heating stoves
In-Reply-To: <00e301c2670a$a827a6e0$9a1e6c0c@default>
Message-ID: <20021001163656.GA24168@cybershamanix.com>

On Tue, Oct 01, 2002 at 10:32:36AM -0500, Scott Willing wrote:
> On 28 Sep 2002 at 9:32, Harmon Seaver wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> > Don't just add a heat exchanger, make it a secondary burning
> > chamber as
> > well. Put a 5 or even 10 gallon drum on top of the stove with
> > adjustable air inlets where the smoke first comes into the stove.
> > Maybe add a small blower to those inlets as well. Or, if your stove
> > already has a secondary burning chamber, try adding a very small
> > blower to that secondary air inlet.
>
> If this is a viable approach (and I'm not questioning it) are there
> commercial examples? Is the entire N.A. stove industry just rehashing
> centuries-old designs, or is anyone actually doing something truly
> progressive?

As far as I know, there are no true "gasifying" heating stoves being built in
the US, however there are any number of stoves which have a secondary burning
chamber, and some of them might even work. The problem is that if your burning
chamber is also a heat exchanger, as they all are, the temp doesn't get high
enough, especially when they are run on a thermostatically controlled primary
air intake, and usually people are seeking a long burn rather than a hot one, so
the results aren't good.
There are, however, a couple of excellent gasifying boilers for home use. One
is the Kuenzel (http://www.kuenzel.de) and the other is the Tarm
(http://www.tarm.com). Unforturnately, the wonderful Kuenzel boilers are not
imported to the US so far.
You could, however, do a bit of research on some of the better heating
stoves, like Vermont Castings, Jotul, Morso, etc. and pick one with the best
secondary burning chamber design, air flow, etc. and then practice the top down
burning technique, hot burns, etc. and achieve miniman pollution.
In fact we installed a custom made set of doors on our masonry fireplace last
year and turned it into a very workable masonry heater that burns (especially
once it gets warmed up) pretty much smoke free, even with not very dry wood.

>
> In order to insure my home I had to have an "approved" heating device
> and chimney, installed according to the guidelines for those devices.
> I'd love to experiment, but if I screw up and burn the place down
> it's going to be my tough luck. As a complete amateur, I can't rule
> out the possibility of doing exactly that.
>

Yes, OTOH, building home-designed stoves is what this list is all about,
eh? Best to play around building stoves out of tin cans and cheap steel drums
and trying them out in the backyard before using them in the house.

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

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From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Tue Oct 1 09:09:06 2002
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:13 2004
Subject: OT(?) Catalytic converters re: N.A. heating stoves
In-Reply-To: <00e301c2670a$a827a6e0$9a1e6c0c@default>
Message-ID: <20021001170554.GB24168@cybershamanix.com>

Actually, if you had a fairly decently designed stove with a secondary
burning chamber, that was also top loading like my Vermont Castings Resolute,
you could line the firechamber with a thermoceramic blanket and probably achieve
very clean burns -- and not have any problems with insurance, etc.

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

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From lanny at roman.net Tue Oct 1 20:23:22 2002
From: lanny at roman.net (Lanny Henson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:13 2004
Subject: vegetable oil as fuel/ Ad Harmonid Seiver
In-Reply-To: <000201c268a3$0829a4a0$0b50c5cb@adkarvepn2.vsnl.net.in>
Message-ID: <007f01c269e4$932f3640$d676f342@oemcomputer>

Harmon, See my comments below.
----- Original Message -----
From: Harmon Seaver <hseaver@cybershamanix.com>
To: Lanny Henson <lanny@roman.net>
Cc: <stoves@crest.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 7:30 AM
Subject: Re: vegetable oil as fuel

> On Tue, Oct 01, 2002 at 06:44:23AM -0700, Lanny Henson wrote:
> > Harmon, Where did you get the notion that waist vegetable oil is dumped
into
> > landfills? I have been around the restaurant business for many years and
I
> > do not see that happening. The health department regulations require
food
> > service business to have a waist oil container which is furnished for
free
> > by the fat recycle folks and they pick it up routinely. As far as
burning it
> > for fuel, well that's great but there is not that much of it and common
> > sense tells me that it will make little difference in our dependence on
> > petroleum.
>
> It's not only dumped in landfills, it's also dumped in sewers -- most
major
> cities have a serious problem with it clogging the large sewer pipes, as
has
> been reported in the press. The fat recycling companies charge to pick it
up,
> so, regulations or not, many small restaurants dump it instead. And there
is, as
> Keith said, enormous amounts available. Just the WVO from one or two
restaurants
> each week is enough to fuel my car.

You may be right about dumping in the cities and I would go along with one
or two restaurants producing enough waist to fuel one car. There are about
383,000 restaurants in the USA so that would fuel 200 to 383 thousand cars
but we must have 100 million cars on the road. I do not see how that is
going to make a lot of difference in our dependence on petroleum but very
little bit helps even if it is less than one percent. So do it if it makes
you feal good.

> > You implied that we (USA) attract other countries to steal there oil!
Why do
> > you hate the USA?
> > Lanny
> >
>
> If you really think the present plan of the Enron gang in the
Whitehouse to
> attack Iraq is for any reason than to control the Iraqi oilfields, I've
got a
> bridge to sell you. It's even a popular bumper sticker: "Nuke their ass
and take
> the gas".

The Eron gang? and if I don't think like you I am stupid enough to buy a
bridge? Like Dan maybe? I guess we could call your comments an ad Harmonid
attack (: Your argumentum ad hominem is not going to convince anyone. What
happen to you that made you so cynical and mean spirited. We are the good
guys. You need to get past bumper sticker logic.
Ad Harmonid Seaver, I think we have found a new handle for you.
Lanny

> --
> Harmon Seaver
> CyberShamanix
> http://www.cybershamanix.com
>

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From lanny at roman.net Tue Oct 1 20:28:36 2002
From: lanny at roman.net (Lanny Henson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:13 2004
Subject: vegetable oil as fuel
Message-ID: <009101c269e5$4d09a460$d676f342@oemcomputer>

KEITH, Please pardon that part of my responce is in
caps and part not. I have little time.
----- Original Message -----From: Keith Addison
<<A
href="mailto:keith@journeytoforever.org">keith@journeytoforever.org>To:
<stoves@crest.org>Sent: Tuesday,
October 01, 2002 5:21 AMSubject: Re: vegetable oil as fuel>
>Harmon, Where did you get the notion that waist vegetable oil is
dumpedinto> >landfills? I have been around the restaurant business
for many years andI> >do not see that happening. The health
department regulations require food> >service business to have a waist
oil container which is furnished forfree> >by the fat recycle
folks and they pick it up routinely. As far as burningit> >for
fuel, well that's great but there is not that much of it and common>
>sense tells me that it will make little difference in our dependence
on> >petroleum.> >You implied that we (USA) attract other
countries to steal there oil! Whydo> >you hate the USA?>
>Lanny>> Estimates of the amount of waste cooking oil in the US
range from 1.2> billion to 3 billion gallons a year (one source says 4
billion), and> probably about 10% of that is collected (that's the rate
in most> industrialized countries, the US is very unlikely to be any
better> than, say, Austria or Belgium). WHO'S ESTIMATE? I AM
SKEPTICAL ABOUT THOSE NUMBERS.> I have seen this quote, but I don't
have an attribution for it:> "Every year, U.S. businesses throw away
enough waste vegetable oil to> replace 10% of the petroleum products
consumed in the country." I> think it's an exaggeration, but probably not
a very gross one.I WOULD ALSO THINK THAT IS AN EXAGGERATION, A HUGE
ONE.> The Wall Street Journal says US national output of restaurant
grease> is three billion pounds a year, and much of it is dumped. See
Wall> Street Journal June 4, 2001:> "Municipal Heart Attack:
Illegal Dumping Of Fryer Grease, Fat Leads> to
Infarctions".SOMETHING DOES not seem right about those numbers.
According to my businesslistings there are 382,956 restaurants in this
country. Now you said thatrestaurants waste grease is about 3, 000,000,000
lb per year. That wouldaverage 7834 pounds per year or 150 lbs a week! I
don't think so.I do think Harmon is closer with his estimate that one or two
restaurantscould fuel a car for A WEEK.> I think that should be
gallons, not pounds - that would only be about> 300 million gallons, way
too low. Anyway, a very large amount of WVO> is most definitely dumped
into landfills in the US, and into sewers.MAYBE IN NEW YORK BUT NOT HERE
IN MY AREA. BUT ANYWAY I AM ALL FOR USING ITAS FUEL.> Harmon
didn't say he hates the USA, by the way. However, that's the> way most of
the people in the world seem to see it, including nearly> all the former
US allies (with the exception of Israel and, to a> lesser extent,
Australia).WHERE ARE YOU getting you information. Most of the free
world knows that weare doing the right thing. I know that there is a lot of
anti Americansentiment out there but most of that is due to envy not
something we did.Most common sense people out there know that we are the
good guys. We havemade great sacrifices to liberate the oppressed and will
continue to do so.The people of Iraq are suffering, Sadam has got to
go.LANNY HENSON

From krksmith at uclink4.berkeley.edu Tue Oct 1 21:21:29 2002
From: krksmith at uclink4.berkeley.edu (Kirk R. Smith)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:13 2004
Subject: HOBO/Onset CO monitor
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A41.4.44.0209210102390.68958-100000@homer16.u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20021001125124.02abf9b0@128.32.25.39>

A quick note to say that we have been using these devices with reasonable
success in China for about 6 months to do indoor air monitoring and have
done so in pilot work in Guatemala as well where we hope to use them over
a 2-year period for both area and personal monitoring. They are not
as robust as Drager or similar small commercial datalogging devices and
there seem to be a significant fraction of lemons (which the company has
to date not been willing to exchange), but, for our purposes, their low
cost makes up for these faults. We have not tried them for
emissions testing, however.

Here, for example, is a typical calibration curve showing excellent
agreement with, in this case, certified CO span gases of 4 different
concentrations:

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From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Tue Oct 1 21:41:38 2002
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:13 2004
Subject: vegetable oil as fuel
In-Reply-To: <009101c269e5$4d09a460$d676f342@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <20021002053903.GB25844@cybershamanix.com>

On Wed, Oct 02, 2002 at 12:28:26AM -0700, Lanny Henson wrote:
> SOMETHING DOES not seem right about those numbers.

Usually the Wall Street Journal is pretty accurate. Perhaps you should do
some research. You'll find the numbers are good.

> According to my business
> listings there are 382,956 restaurants in this country.

I'd say that number is pretty low. But it's also not just from restaurants,
you have to add in all the schools, colleges, hospitals, and other institutions
like prisons, etc.

> Now you said that
> restaurants waste grease is about 3, 000,000,000 lb per year. That would
> average 7834 pounds per year or 150 lbs a week! I don't think so.
> I do think Harmon is closer with his estimate that one or two restaurants
> could fuel a car for A WEEK.

No, no -- I can get enough on average from one or two each week to provide
*all* the fuel I need. There's no point in arguing about it, plenty of people
are doing it already, it's really not debatable.

>
> > I think that should be gallons, not pounds - that would only be about
> > 300 million gallons, way too low. Anyway, a very large amount of WVO
> > is most definitely dumped into landfills in the US, and into sewers.
>
> MAYBE IN NEW YORK BUT NOT HERE IN MY AREA. BUT ANYWAY I AM ALL FOR USING IT
> AS FUEL.

You can do it anywhere. I sure don't live in a big city.

>
> > Harmon didn't say he hates the USA, by the way. However, that's the
> > way most of the people in the world seem to see it, including nearly
> > all the former US allies (with the exception of Israel and, to a
> > lesser extent, Australia).
>
>
> WHERE ARE YOU getting you information. Most of the free world knows that we
> are doing the right thing.

Oh dear!

> I know that there is a lot of anti American
> sentiment out there but most of that is due to envy not something we did.

Hardly. Mostly it's our foreign policy for the last 50 years. I'm always
reminded of the the book "The Ugly American". It would probably be interesting
to reread it at this point.

> Most common sense people out there know that we are the good guys. We have
> made great sacrifices to liberate the oppressed and will continue to do so.
> The people of Iraq are suffering, Sadam has got to go.

Interesting that we're so concerned about the suffering of people in Iraq --
what other countries have we invaded to stop the suffering? North Korea? Uganda
under Idi Amin? Rwanda during their recent genocide? Burma? South
Africa? Hmm. Oh yes, weapons of mass destruction. Gee, I wonder why we didn't
invade India and Pakistan when they were developing nukes. Or Russia. Or China,
or ...

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

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From dstill at epud.net Tue Oct 1 23:25:05 2002
From: dstill at epud.net (Dean Still)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:13 2004
Subject: politics is hot but it isn't stoves
Message-ID: <001801c269d5$7a26aa20$711e6c0c@default>

Dear Friends,

In my opinion, we get more done when we keep these discussions on a
friendly, professional level. Working together to create better stoves is a
noble pursuit. I'm impressed with the helpfulness and collaboration here at
the List, more often than not.

Best,

Dean
-----Original Message-----
From: Harmon Seaver

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From crispin at newdawn.sz Wed Oct 2 00:33:03 2002
From: crispin at newdawn.sz (Crispin)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:13 2004
Subject: politics is hot but it isn't stoves
In-Reply-To: <001801c269d5$7a26aa20$711e6c0c@default>
Message-ID: <002801c269ef$d622cba0$2a47fea9@md>

Dear Dean and Fellow Stovers

Thanks for bring our (the Stoves group's) attention to our primary topic and
/raison d'etre/.

An important point has been raised and bears repeating, which is that this
international point of contact should be one where it is ideas (like
charcoaling making stoves and gassifying leaves) that are attacked or
supported, not personalities or persons.

Civilized discourse is marked by an elevated understanding and a warm
embracing of things such as a respect for our planetary home,
acknowledgement of our common origin and global citizenship, our
responsibility to develop a moral imperative in our professional lives, a
willingnesss to exert ourselves for the benefit of others, and possession of
a sin-covering eye.

Humanity is faced by a number of problems of which one very important one is
fair and efficient use of energy resources. Discussion of this should
dominate our interchanges on this List.

The only thing to be gained by undermining the person or image of another is
disrespect for oneself by others, truly. I don't want to have to start
blocking messages from people who are knowledgeable in a field I am
studying.

Perhaps we can adopt the rule used in HAM radio conversations which is that
politics is a /verboten/ topic.

I, for one, want to explore further the science behind the point noted by
Ron Larson (good eye, Ron!) that the Shisa Stove (our latest manifestation
of the Tsotso) has a downward moving a pyrolosis zone that creates and then
burns charcoal, even though it is a bottom-lit stove.

Respectfully yours,
Crispin Pemberton-Pigott in Swaziland

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From jeff.forssell at cfl.se Wed Oct 2 00:58:07 2002
From: jeff.forssell at cfl.se (Jeff Forssell)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:13 2004
Subject: SV: politics is hot but it isn't stoves
Message-ID: <A11397FBE741D411B2E700D0B74770E9B5D518@tyr.ssvh.se>

a sin-covering eye.
[Jeff Forssell] What does this phrase mean?

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From kchisholm at ca.inter.net Wed Oct 2 04:15:55 2002
From: kchisholm at ca.inter.net (Kevin Chisholm)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:13 2004
Subject: vegetable oil as fuel/ Ad Harmonid Seiver
In-Reply-To: <000201c268a3$0829a4a0$0b50c5cb@adkarvepn2.vsnl.net.in>
Message-ID: <3D9AE2C0.A3A959FE@ca.inter.net>

Dear Lanny

A 12 second, 4 note fart is an awesome experience. Any
male at the Tavern or Hunting Camp would be quite
within his rights, and his efforts would be very much
appreciated by his peers, if he exposed them to such a
fabulous experience. However, these same peers would
virtually disown him if he did the same thing in Church
next morning.

Religion, Politics, Patriotism, and Sex are Farts in
the Church of the Stove.

It would be very much appreciated if discussions on
such topics were taken "off list."

Thanks very much

Kevin Chisholm

Lanny Henson wrote:
>
> Harmon, See my comments below.
>...del...>
> > > You implied that we (USA) attract other countries to steal there oil!
> Why do
> > > you hate the USA?
> > > Lanny
> > >
> >
> > If you really think the present plan of the Enron gang in the
> Whitehouse to
> > attack Iraq is for any reason than to control the Iraqi oilfields, I've
> got a
> > bridge to sell you. It's even a popular bumper sticker: "Nuke their ass
> and take
> > the gas".
>
...del...

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From ronallarson at qwest.net Wed Oct 2 04:41:50 2002
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:13 2004
Subject: Moderator's Questions on Dean's, Crispin's and Kevin's notes on politics and stoves dialog
In-Reply-To: <002801c269ef$d622cba0$2a47fea9@md>
Message-ID: <NGBBKDEHILILFNJPHEFIGEDICCAA.ronallarson@qwest.net>

Stovers:

1. Thanks to Dean Still for his helpful comments on our dialog style.

2. I also wrote (off-list) last night to Lanny and Harmon saying something
similar and saying it nicely and gently. I'll bet both would appreciate
similar comments to them to be off-list. But a question #1 - Any other
rules? I hate to see any censorship of topics that are important to list
members.

3. . Then Crispin followed Dean, saying this morning:

"Dear Dean and Fellow Stovers

Thanks for bring our (the Stoves group's) attention to our primary topic and
/raison d'etre/.

Perhaps we can adopt the rule used in HAM radio conversations which is that
politics is a /verboten/ topic."

4. I like this "ham" recommendation from Crispin. Let's stick with it. I
think we got into our world oil "political" discussion because of Dr.
Karve's mentioning the work of Dr. Stumpf. I still think that we need to
hear more on the subject of stoves and seed oils. I don't consider that a
political subject - although this means we may need a bit more on what we
mean by "politics". I think it is fine to talk on this list about the
intersection of world (not US domsetic party) politics and the world of
stoves. Question #2 - what do we mean by "politics"?

5. In order to flesh out Crispin's suggestion and since this is a "hot
topic", let me introduce a single paragraph from today's column by my
favorite columnist - talking about the subjects raised by Lanny and Harmon
in a piece today called "Tone it Down a Notch":

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/10/02/opinion/02FRIE.html?ex=1034534454&ei=1&en=
b778a3391ea9f672

where Friedman said near the end (where "we" and "us" is the USA):

"Beyond tone, there is also substance. We will never be taken seriously by
the world if we go on telling others that they are either with us or against
us in the war on terrorism — but that in the war for a greener planet, in
the war against global warming, sorry, we're not with you, we're taking a
powder, because we don't want to give up our energy gluttony. President Bush
promised that he would offer a credible alternative to the Kyoto treaty.
Where is it? "

6. The question of "tone" is pertinent for our list today, bu my Q3 is -
should we avoid this "Kyoto" topic? I believe that the "politics" (US
domestic varety) of Harmon and Lanny differ greatly on what Thomas Friedman
is pointing out in terms of world "politics". In other words, should GW
and GCC be off the table on this list as well? Thoughts? (Welcome either
on-list or off-list.)

7. Thanks again to Dean, Crispin, and Kevin. On the question from Jeff - I
look forward to an answer.

Ron

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From Visser at btgworld.com Wed Oct 2 04:54:37 2002
From: Visser at btgworld.com (Piet Visser)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:13 2004
Subject: Gelfuel
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20021002145635.00b53ee0@192.168.10.1>

Back from holidays I was surprised to see a lot of reactions on
gelfuel. In 2000 We have done some testing of the gelfuel for the RPTES
program of the Worldbank. I have presented the results on a conference in
Abidjan and the slides are available at:

http://www.btgworld.com/services/pdf/tafs/gelfuel.pdf

You should be able to get a copy of the final report from Boris
Utria at the Worldbank. If there is (much) interest, I can ask Boris to
make the report available on the BTG website:

http://www.btgworld.com

regards,

Piet Visser

_____________________________________________________________

Piet Visser
BTG biomass technology group B.V.
c/o University of Twente
Postal address : P.O. Box 217, 7500 AE Enschede, The Netherlands
Physical address : Drienerlolaan 5, 7522 NB Enschede, The
Netherlands

Phone : +31 53 489 2897
Direct : +31 53 489 2889
Fax : +31 53 489 3116
E-mail : Office@btgworld.com
Direct : Visser@btg.ct.utwente.nl

from
17 june 2002: visser@btgworld.com

==> Visit our website at
<http://www.btgworld.com>
<==
==> Visit our website at
<http://www.ecogas.nl>
<==
==> Visit the stove website at
<http://www.cookstove.net>
<==
_____________________________________________________________

From Visser at btgworld.com Wed Oct 2 04:57:29 2002
From: Visser at btgworld.com (Piet Visser)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:13 2004
Subject: Gelfuel
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20021002145731.00c16490@192.168.10.1>

http://www.btgworld.com/services/pdf/tafs/gelfuel.pdf

You should be able to get a copy of the final report from Boris
Utria at the Worldbank:

butria@worldbank.com

If there is (much) interest, I can ask Boris to make the
report available on the BTG website:

http://www.btgworld.com

regards,

Piet Visser

_____________________________________________________________

Phone : +31 53 489 2897
Direct : +31 53 489 2889
Fax : +31 53 489 3116
E-mail : Office@btgworld.com
Direct : Visser@btg.ct.utwente.nl

from
17 june 2002: visser@btgworld.com

From ronallarson at qwest.net Wed Oct 2 05:58:13 2002
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:13 2004
Subject: Follow up on Crispin's Shisa
In-Reply-To: <002801c269ef$d622cba0$2a47fea9@md>
Message-ID: <NGBBKDEHILILFNJPHEFIKEDJCCAA.ronallarson@qwest.net>

Stovers:

1. Following other useful comments, Crispin today said:

"I, for one, want to explore further the science behind the point noted by
Ron Larson (good eye, Ron!) that the Shisa Stove (our latest manifestation
of the Tsotso) has a downward moving pyrolosis zone that creates and then
burns charcoal, even though it is a bottom-lit stove."

2. Q. - Why the name "Shisa"?

3. I believe "Tsotso" means something like "bits and pieces". True? If
so, have you ever heard of tests on performance versus size of fuel?

4. I believe that the "tsotso" was developed mainly by David Hancock. I am
sending this also to David - in hopes he will enlighten us more on the
"tsotso" - but ask that Crispin also do so.

5. I think the distinguishing thing about the "tsotso" was its use of many
holes in a removable fuel "basket". I'd like to hear more from anyone on
the number and size of holes.

6. Another stove that was similar was the ZZ-stove (don't think its basket
was removable), manufactured by the Hottenroth family in California. Like
Tom Reed's turbo, that is powered by a small battery-powered fan. I once
looked at that patent - and it never talked about pyrolysis (and maybe
didn't talk about top or bottom lighting, but I think you probably had to do
top-lighting - or start small and add fuel). It is still being sold as the
"Sierra" and "Eagle". See http://www.zzstove.com/ If anyone associated
with this stove can add anything - I believe it will help move the dialog
requested by Crispin forward.

7. When I used "google" to find "sierra" today - I found a second larger
stove with the same name - and lots more references besides that above. And
differing opinions. If anyone has time, it would be nice to get a summary.
The ZZ people note the use of cotton balls soaked with vaseline as a useful
starter (for top-lighting). In a camping venue, I saw a special "flint"
lighter for such balls that precluded the need for matches.

8. I gather that the "tsotso" sold moderately well in Zimbabwe but may not
now being sold. Anyone able to report on the reasons?

9. Crispin's modifications are two fold - an overall air control (natural
draft, not a small fan) - and preheat of both primary and secondary air.
The ZZ stoves do the same. Tom Reed prefers to not you preheat. This
subject also needs more discussion. My recollection is that Crispin has
bigger holes - but maybe about proportional for overall stove size. In many
ways, one can find a lot of parallels.

10. I haven't addressed Crispin's main question above - which related to
top vs bottom lighting and the impact on pyrolysis properties. The reason
is that I have no good answers. I think we just need more observations and
probably stopping the stove at various times during a burn to see what is
happening where in different parts of trhe stove at different times.

11. I haven't heard much back from this group (or anyone) on the
intentional use of charcoal for simultaneous soil improvement and carbon
sequestration for global warming mitigation purposes - but I suspect that
Crispin's question related to that as well.

12. I have found that there are modern tests going on with charcoal as soil
enhancements (and in the context of sequestration for GW reasons). None that
involve stoves as near as I can tell. More on that later.

Ron

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From ronallarson at qwest.net Wed Oct 2 06:53:21 2002
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:13 2004
Subject: Gelfuel
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20021002145731.00c16490@192.168.10.1>
Message-ID: <NGBBKDEHILILFNJPHEFIGEDKCCAA.ronallarson@qwest.net>

Piet
(cc stoves and Boris):

 1. Your reference citation
today of <A
href="http://www.btgworld.com/services/pdf/tafs/gelfuel.pdf"
EUDORA="AUTOURL">http://www.btgworld.com/services/pdf/tafs/gelfuel.pdf was very
helpful. A very nice and thorough study.

2. You also said: " If there is (much) interest,
I can ask Boris to make the report available on the BTG website:[ <A
href="http://www.btgworld.com"
EUDORA="AUTOURL">http://www.btgworld.com

This
is to ask Boris directly - I think that report should be widely
available and thank you for bringing this to our attention and hope Boris can
help.

3. You also called attention to the
site <<A href="http://www.ecogas.nl/"
eudora="autourl">http://www.ecogas.nl> which I
visited and found only the Dutch language. Can you give a citation
for those of us restricted to English? Is there a cook stove side to
that work?

4. I also looked again at <<A
href="http://www.cookstove.net/"
eudora="autourl">http://www.cookstove.net> It is a shame that
the fine work at Eindhoven is only preserved here (true?). I recommend
it to others for some of the references - and hope you can get some of these
reports also back up on the web. 
5. On your gelfuel pdf: Although the costs were
highest, I think there were some very nice power control features shown - and
can imagine that you might recommend it fairly highly for some
applications. True? Did you do any work on
emissions?

6. The costs were reported I think in Dutch Florins. Can
you give a conversion to Euros or dollars?

7. I thought I understood most of the slides - but not that for
"aperture regulator" in slides 8 and 9. Could you explain this
geometry some more?

8. My conclusion out of this is again that we need to pay a lot
of attention to air supply and air control. Anything more you can say
about that? Was it missing in most of the stoves you
tested?

Thanks in advance
Ron

From stephen.gitonga at undp.org Wed Oct 2 11:55:00 2002
From: stephen.gitonga at undp.org (Stephen Gitonga)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:13 2004
Subject: Stover's stove needed for a community distallation unit
Message-ID: <3D9B4E50.DE71BAB8@undp.org>

Hello Stovers

I have been a list member for some time and I have found the
discussions quite informative. I have an inquiry which I believe will
make a difference in the lives of a community in Dominica.

A community in Dominica , a small Caribbean Island are making
essential oils from bay leaves and they have accumulated a substantial
amount of waste product (leaves which have undergone the distillation
process).

They use firewood for heating in the distillation equipment. They live
next to a park and the authorities are no longer allowing them to get
firewood from the park. They need an alternative. However, just like in
the sugar industry, they have accumulated a large heap of waste. The
waste product could be spread in the farms as manure but currently they
are not using it for anything. It is being heaped together and rotting
(possibly producing methane which is lost in the environment as one of
the green house gas that is important for climate change).

The stovers have stove stove technologies , I guess of the right size,
that can help this community to heat their distillation unit. I think
the best bet is the stove that could turn the waste leaves into char
(carbon) at the same time producing pyrolysis gases for heating the
distillation unit. The stovers list members recently discussed how
carbon has been used as fertiliser for soils. I believe that the carbon
in this case, will be powdery, and can be used by the communities for
spreading in the farms to condition the soil , leading to double
benefit.

Now the big question to the list members is:
1) After removing the essential oils, will the leaves pylolyse easily or
do you think the removal of the oils have affected the quality of the
waste as a feed stock for the stove?
2) Which particular stove from the list members would you recommend? Can
it be modified to heat the distillation unit?can it use the
waste-leaves?
3) Is there a list member(s) who live near Dominica who would be of help
and willing to make a practical contribution and apply his/her charcoal
making /gasifying stove technology for this important activity?

I am aware that more information is required for example , one needs
to know the scale of operation of the essential oils activity but I
have not yet received this from the community. Having worked with
different communities, I would guess that the scale is relatively
small and therefore ideal for the kind of stoves that I have seen
discussed here on the list. Again, going by the fact that the activity
has been going on sustainably, the scale is big enough to make economic
sense. They sell the essential oils to the pharmaceutical and the
cosmetic industries. The information that I have is that there is a big
heap of waste leaves showing that the scale of operation is optimum for
a community project.

The benefits that should be achieved are livelihood improvement and
environmental benefits related to mitigating climate change.

This inquiry ties with the discussions that has been going on over the
last couple of months including carbon as a medium for sold
fertilisation, emissions from stoves , charcoal (char) making and
gasification and might provide an opportunity for the stovers to give a
real practical solution to a real community problem.

In the meantime, I will seek more details on the scale of the operation,
temperatures that they need for the distillation, the duration of time
for each batch etc. from the community members.

Regards

Stephen Gitonga

begin:vcard
n:gitonga;stephen
tel;fax:212 906 6568
tel;work:212 906 5180
x-mozilla-html:FALSE
org:UNDP GEF Small Grants Programme;UNDP/BDP/ESDG
version:2.1
email;internet:stephen.gitonga@undp.org
title:Climate Change Programme Officer
adr;quoted-printable:;;304 East, 45th Street=0D=0A;New York;New York;10017;USA
fn:stephen gitonga
end:vcard

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From ronallarson at qwest.net Wed Oct 2 17:43:49 2002
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:13 2004
Subject: Stover's stove needed for a community distillation unit
In-Reply-To: <3D9B4E50.DE71BAB8@undp.org>
Message-ID: <NGBBKDEHILILFNJPHEFICEEFCCAA.ronallarson@qwest.net>

Stephen (cc stoves):

See some comments below

-----Original Message-----
From: Stephen Gitonga [mailto:stephen.gitonga@undp.org]
Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 1:52 PM
To: Stoves
Subject: Stover's stove needed for a community distallation unit

<snip>

You said:

"Now the big question to the list members is:
1) After removing the essential oils, will the leaves pylolyse easily or
do you think the removal of the oils have affected the quality of the
waste as a feed stock for the stove?"

(RWL-1): I think that the combustion will not be as good without the
oils - but you should still be able to find a way to use them

2) Which particular stove from the list members would you recommend? Can
it be modified to heat the distillation unit?can it use the
waste-leaves?

(RWL2): I believe there should be a range of possible stoves. We need
to hear more about the present type of stoves being used.
It is not clear whether your distillation unit is a "large" central unit or
can be many individual units. Either one should be possible to convert to a
pyrolysis function. It would be helpful to know the power (kilowatt) rating
of what you now have. Our stoves on this list are mostly around 2-5 kW.
yes - it should be possible to use these leaves. In reading about
Dominica it seems there is a sizeable banana industry also - would those
leaves also be available?

3) "Is there a list member(s) who live near Dominica who would be of help
and willing to make a practical contribution and apply his/her charcoal
making /gasifying stove technology for this important activity?"

(RWL3): Let us hope trhat someone will respond. We have had some messages
from and about Haiti and Cuba - but I cannot remember any from the
Caribbean.

<snip>

4. You said also
"In the meantime, I will seek more details on the scale of the operation,
temperatures that they need for the distillation, the duration of time
for each batch etc. from the community members.

Regards Stephen Gitonga"

(RWL4): This will be good. My thought is that the discussion we have had
on this list indicates a need to consider pelletizing. In most stoves, it is
just not easy to combust or pyrolyze loose leaves. Look especially in our
archives for the work of Richard Stanley - although several other list
members have written on this subject. Also the Karves have written on
pyrolysis of leaves - and you are describing a situation where the waste
flared pyrolysis gases might be usable for your processing operations.

Best of luck. We look forward to hearing more.

Ron

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From adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in Wed Oct 2 18:59:52 2002
From: adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in (A.D. Karve)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:14 2004
Subject: Stover's stove needed for a community distallation unit
Message-ID: <000001c26a8c$6415a120$8b9ec7cb@adkarvepn2.vsnl.net.in>

The leaves in question can be dried and burned after paccking them into a
sawdust burning stove. Alternatively, the semidecomposed leaves can be
compressed or extruded into fuel briquettes and used as fuel. In both the
cases, there would be smoke pollution. Charring of the leaves is simple,
only they would have to be dry. An oven and retort system would be a good
charring method. The pyrolysis gas generated in this system is used for
provinding the process heat in charring. The powdery char can then be
extruded into fuel briquettes, which burn exactly like charcoal, without
producing smoke or soot. We have all the stove types and also the charring
kiln, in case you wish to send somebody over to learn the different
techniques.
Dr.A.D.Karve, President
Appropriate Rural Technology Institute
Pune, India

-----Original Message-----
From: Stephen Gitonga <stephen.gitonga@undp.org>
To: Stoves <stoves@crest.org>
Date: Thursday, October 03, 2002 1:23 AM
Subject: Stover's stove needed for a community distallation unit

> Hello Stovers
>
>I have been a list member for some time and I have found the
>discussions quite informative. I have an inquiry which I believe will
>make a difference in the lives of a community in Dominica.
>
>A community in Dominica , a small Caribbean Island are making
>essential oils from bay leaves and they have accumulated a substantial
>amount of waste product (leaves which have undergone the distillation
>process).
>
>They use firewood for heating in the distillation equipment. They live
>next to a park and the authorities are no longer allowing them to get
>firewood from the park. They need an alternative. However, just like in
>the sugar industry, they have accumulated a large heap of waste. The
>waste product could be spread in the farms as manure but currently they
>are not using it for anything. It is being heaped together and rotting
>(possibly producing methane which is lost in the environment as one of
>the green house gas that is important for climate change).
>
>The stovers have stove stove technologies , I guess of the right size,
>that can help this community to heat their distillation unit. I think
>the best bet is the stove that could turn the waste leaves into char
>(carbon) at the same time producing pyrolysis gases for heating the
>distillation unit. The stovers list members recently discussed how
>carbon has been used as fertiliser for soils. I believe that the carbon
>in this case, will be powdery, and can be used by the communities for
>spreading in the farms to condition the soil , leading to double
>benefit.
>
>Now the big question to the list members is:
>1) After removing the essential oils, will the leaves pylolyse easily or
>do you think the removal of the oils have affected the quality of the
>waste as a feed stock for the stove?
>2) Which particular stove from the list members would you recommend? Can
>it be modified to heat the distillation unit?can it use the
>waste-leaves?
>3) Is there a list member(s) who live near Dominica who would be of help
>and willing to make a practical contribution and apply his/her charcoal
>making /gasifying stove technology for this important activity?
>
>I am aware that more information is required for example , one needs
>to know the scale of operation of the essential oils activity but I
>have not yet received this from the community. Having worked with
>different communities, I would guess that the scale is relatively
>small and therefore ideal for the kind of stoves that I have seen
>discussed here on the list. Again, going by the fact that the activity
>has been going on sustainably, the scale is big enough to make economic
>sense. They sell the essential oils to the pharmaceutical and the
>cosmetic industries. The information that I have is that there is a big
>heap of waste leaves showing that the scale of operation is optimum for
>a community project.
>
>The benefits that should be achieved are livelihood improvement and
>environmental benefits related to mitigating climate change.
>
>This inquiry ties with the discussions that has been going on over the
>last couple of months including carbon as a medium for sold
>fertilisation, emissions from stoves , charcoal (char) making and
>gasification and might provide an opportunity for the stovers to give a
>real practical solution to a real community problem.
>
>In the meantime, I will seek more details on the scale of the operation,
>temperatures that they need for the distillation, the duration of time
>for each batch etc. from the community members.
>
>Regards
>
>Stephen Gitonga
>

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From das at eagle-access.net Wed Oct 2 21:52:31 2002
From: das at eagle-access.net (Das)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:14 2004
Subject: Coal stoves needed 2
Message-ID: <200210030603.g93633j25645@saturn.eagle-access.net>

Salt acts as a flux lowering the melting point of ash and many chimney
deposits perhaps also enhancing the catalytic effect of ash.
I have used it successfully to magically remove soot deposits inside the
chimney of an Alladin kerosine mantle lamp.
Why it works is a delightful mystery.

A. Das
Original Sources/Biomass Energy Foundation
Box 7137, Boulder, CO 80306
das@eagle-access.net

----------
> From: john <jmdavies@xsinet.co.za>
> To: stove list <stoves@crest.org>
> Subject: Coal stoves needed 2
> Date: Tuesday, September 17, 2002 3:58 PM
> . This time salt was also mentioned. Are we
> working with superstitions, or is there an explanation that modern
science
> is missing ???

>
> Regards,
> John Davies.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -
> Stoves List Archives and Website:
> http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200209/
> http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
> >
> Stoves List Moderators:
> Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
> Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
>
> Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon
>
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From jmdavies at xsinet.co.za Wed Oct 2 23:01:13 2002
From: jmdavies at xsinet.co.za (john)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:14 2004
Subject: Coal stoves needed 2
In-Reply-To: <200210030603.g93633j25645@saturn.eagle-access.net>
Message-ID: <006601c26aa9$d211e2c0$de6b27c4@default>

Many Thanks for this. I have found that many traditional customs do have a
scientific explanation. Could just be that there are trace elements in the
maize meal that complement the catalytic process.

This little gem could just make stoves without chimneys safer in the house.
this could provide a research opportunity for somebody.

Regards,
John Davies.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Das" <das@eagle-access.net>

> Salt acts as a flux lowering the melting point of ash and many chimney
> deposits perhaps also enhancing the catalytic effect of ash.
> I have used it successfully to magically remove soot deposits inside the
> chimney of an Alladin kerosine mantle lamp.
> Why it works is a delightful mystery.
>
> A. Das
> Original Sources/Biomass Energy Foundation
> Box 7137, Boulder, CO 80306
> das@eagle-access.net
>
> ----------
> > From: john <jmdavies@xsinet.co.za>
> > To: stove list <stoves@crest.org>
> > Subject: Coal stoves needed 2
> > Date: Tuesday, September 17, 2002 3:58 PM
> > . This time salt was also mentioned. Are we
> > working with superstitions, or is there an explanation that modern
> science
> > is missing ???
>
>
> >
> > Regards,
> > John Davies.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -
> > Stoves List Archives and Website:
> > http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200209/
> > http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
> > >
> > Stoves List Moderators:
> > Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
> > Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
> >
> > Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
> > http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
> > http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
> > http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon
> >
> > List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
> > List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
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> > >
> > For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
> >
>
>http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Chambers/Chambers.htm
>
>
>

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From elk at wananchi.com Wed Oct 2 23:14:44 2002
From: elk at wananchi.com (elk)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:14 2004
Subject: Charcoal briquettes from carbonised leaves
Message-ID: <000001c26aac$364c89a0$9b47083e@42v2501>

Hi Stephen;

We at Chardust have run a few trials on carbonising
Leleshwa leaf waste from an essential oils extraction facility in Northern
Kenya. The material, once dried to below 20% moisture, carbonised easily enough
in our downdraught open-kiln unit, but the resultant briquettes made via low
pressure extrusion (clay + corn starch binders) burned poorly with low heat and
quite a bit of residual ash- 32%. It was considered too poor a fuel to
substitute for traditional wood charcoal here.

The difference between Bay & Leleshwa leaves
may be significant, so I don't recommend drawing a direct correlation here, but
carbonising leaves and briquetting could be a rather complicated solution for
this for this particular problem.

I'd think that a forced-air stove/furnace could be
the best design. Particulate biomass needs a rather aggressive airflow to burn
properly- especially as high moisture levels are often an impediment. This leads
us to a fan or a tall chimney. Possibly one of the embedded pot stove
designs with a tall (4 m plus) chimney would work for the scale of
operation at the extraction plant- I can imagine 200 litre pots. I also imagine
that feeding fuel to the stove would be a very active job considering the
bulk-density of leaves.

rgds;

elk

--------------------------Elsen L.
Karstadelk@wananchi.com<A
href="http://www.chardust.com">www.chardust.comNairobi
Kenya

From pverhaart at optusnet.com.au Thu Oct 3 02:02:09 2002
From: pverhaart at optusnet.com.au (Peter Verhaart)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:14 2004
Subject: vegetable oil as fuel/ Ad Harmonid Seiver
In-Reply-To: <000201c268a3$0829a4a0$0b50c5cb@adkarvepn2.vsnl.net.in>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20021003195841.00a8ad00@localhost>

Good on you, Kevin.

Peter Verhaart

At 09:12 02/10/02 -0300, you wrote:
>Dear Lanny
>
>A 12 second, 4 note fart is an awesome experience. Any
>male at the Tavern or Hunting Camp would be quite
>within his rights, and his efforts would be very much
>appreciated by his peers, if he exposed them to such a
>fabulous experience. However, these same peers would
>virtually disown him if he did the same thing in Church
>next morning.
>
>Religion, Politics, Patriotism, and Sex are Farts in
>the Church of the Stove.
>
>It would be very much appreciated if discussions on
>such topics were taken "off list."
>
>Thanks very much
>
>Kevin Chisholm
>
>Lanny Henson wrote:
> >
> > Harmon, See my comments below.
> >...del...>
> > > > You implied that we (USA) attract other countries to steal there oil!
> > Why do
> > > > you hate the USA?
> > > > Lanny
> > > >
> > >
> > > If you really think the present plan of the Enron gang in the
> > Whitehouse to
> > > attack Iraq is for any reason than to control the Iraqi oilfields, I've
> > got a
> > > bridge to sell you. It's even a popular bumper sticker: "Nuke their ass
> > and take
> > > the gas".
> >
>...del...
>
>-
>Stoves List Archives and Website:
>http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200209/
>http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
> >
>Stoves List Moderators:
>Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
>Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
>
>Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
>http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
>http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
>http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon
>
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From pverhaart at optusnet.com.au Thu Oct 3 02:06:44 2002
From: pverhaart at optusnet.com.au (Peter Verhaart)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:14 2004
Subject: Bugbear-worm virus
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20021003200240.00a8f2b0@localhost>

I received 3 mails containing the above mentioned virus. One of them
purporting to come from admin@trmiles.com

It contained some text in Malay or Indonesian about addresses.

Peter Verhaart

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From Bryan.Willson at colostate.edu Thu Oct 3 06:02:36 2002
From: Bryan.Willson at colostate.edu (Bryan Willson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:14 2004
Subject: OT(?) Catalytic converters re: N.A. heating stoves
In-Reply-To: <3D9979C4.1401.12E37EBE@localhost>
Message-ID: <IKEDKFNCEGGOEHHJPHKDGEEPEFAA.Bryan.Willson@colostate.edu>

I haven't followed this particular thread very closely, but please allow me
to provide a few comments.

We probably have gotten a little bit smarter about lots of things over the
years, including stove design. I'm sure the collective wisdom of this group
is doing better than "just rehashing centuries-old designs." However, the
real advantage we have in the 21st century is our ability to measure things.
This means we can work with data, not just intuition. We are just now
getting to the point where the ability to quantify might be applied to
stoves.

It's great to see the enthusiasm and ingenuity which is apparent in this
group. However, we need to focus more on getting real, measurable,
quantifiable results.

I hope you don't do something that "burns down your home" in your attempts
to try new things. However, if you can't provide the stoves community with
reliable quantitative data on performance, I'm not sure it's worth the
effort.

There was a book on Appropriate Technology published in the UK 15-20 years
back which included the following phrase in it's Forward - "If it is worth
doing, it is worth doing badly, rather than not at all." At the time I
first read this, I felt that it was an enabling attitude. However, I now
find that I agree less and less with this viewpoint as time goes on. I'd be
interested in comments from the rest of the Stoves group. It seems to me
that we need to connect the ingenuity of various inventors to modern
research laboratories with analytical measurement capabilities.

Comments?

Thanks!

- Bryan Willson

Dr. Bryan Willson
Professor of Mechanical Engineering
Research Director, Engines & Energy Conversion Laboratory
Department of Mechanical Engineering
Colorado State University
Fort Collins, Colorado 80523-1374
Phone: (970)-491-4783
Mobile: (970)-227-5164
FAX: (970)-491-4799
EECL Web Site: www.engr.colostate.edu\EECL

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Scott Willing [mailto:willing@mb.sympatico.ca]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 9:33 AM
> To: stoves@crest.org
> Subject: Re: OT(?) Catalytic converters re: N.A. heating stoves
>
>
> On 28 Sep 2002 at 9:32, Harmon Seaver wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> > Don't just add a heat exchanger, make it a secondary burning
> > chamber as
> > well. Put a 5 or even 10 gallon drum on top of the stove with
> > adjustable air inlets where the smoke first comes into the stove.
> > Maybe add a small blower to those inlets as well. Or, if your stove
> > already has a secondary burning chamber, try adding a very small
> > blower to that secondary air inlet.
>
> If this is a viable approach (and I'm not questioning it) are there
> commercial examples? Is the entire N.A. stove industry just rehashing
> centuries-old designs, or is anyone actually doing something truly
> progressive?
>
> In order to insure my home I had to have an "approved" heating device
> and chimney, installed according to the guidelines for those devices.
> I'd love to experiment, but if I screw up and burn the place down
> it's going to be my tough luck. As a complete amateur, I can't rule
> out the possibility of doing exactly that.
>
> -=s
>
> -
> Stoves List Archives and Website:
> http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200209/
> http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
> >
> Stoves List Moderators:
> Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
> Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
>
> Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon
>
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ambers.htm

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From stephen.gitonga at undp.org Thu Oct 3 06:30:02 2002
From: stephen.gitonga at undp.org (Stephen Gitonga)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:14 2004
Subject: Charcoal briquettes from carbonised leaves
In-Reply-To: <000001c26aac$364c89a0$9b47083e@42v2501>
Message-ID: <3D9C53C4.5D97ACC2@undp.org>

Hello Elk
Thank you very much for the detailed comments. The experience with the
leleshwa leaves is very good for this case as it answer my question number
one. That might suggest that the quality of the feed stock is lowered when
essential oils are removed from the leaves.
In fact what I thought could be easier for a community that is
not well endowed with technology is to burn the leaves directly, as their
main interest is essential oil production. My initial thinking was that
they will get char as by-product from any of the stovers members'
stove that "make char instead of ash". That way the community
will not notice any difference from what they are used to except
that they will have another product that they can use . Instead of briquetting
the char they can use it directly in their farms just like the by
product of biogas production(slurry) which is spread on the farms.
Many thanks for the very good contributions and sharing your leleshwa
leaves experience
Stephen Gitonga
It is ther
elk wrote:

Hi
Stephen; We at Chardust
have run a few trials on carbonising Leleshwa leaf waste from an essential
oils extraction facility in Northern Kenya. The material, once dried to
below 20% moisture, carbonised easily enough in our downdraught open-kiln
unit, but the resultant briquettes made via low pressure extrusion (clay
+ corn starch binders) burned poorly with low heat and quite a bit of residual
ash- 32%. It was considered too poor a fuel to substitute for traditional
wood charcoal here. The
difference between Bay & Leleshwa leaves may be significant, so I don't
recommend drawing a direct correlation here, but carbonising leaves and
briquetting could be a rather complicated solution for this for this particular
problem. I'd think
that a forced-air stove/furnace could be the best design. Particulate biomass
needs a rather aggressive airflow to burn properly- especially as high
moisture levels are often an impediment. This leads us to a fan or a
tall chimney. Possibly one of the embedded pot stove designs with a tall
(4 m plus) chimney would work for the scale of operation at the extraction
plant- I can imagine 200 litre pots. I also imagine that feeding fuel to
the stove would be a very active job considering the bulk-density of leaves. rgds; elk --------------------------
Elsen L. Karstad
elk@wananchi.com
www.chardust.com
Nairobi Kenya

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From stephen.gitonga at undp.org Thu Oct 3 06:54:03 2002
From: stephen.gitonga at undp.org (Stephen Gitonga)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:14 2004
Subject: Stover's stove needed for a community distillation unit
In-Reply-To: <NGBBKDEHILILFNJPHEFICEEFCCAA.ronallarson@qwest.net>
Message-ID: <3D9C596B.F709BDE2@undp.org>

Hello Ron

Thanks for the answers to all the questions that I had asked. Your answer to question
one tallies with Elk's experience with the leleshwa leaves . I have also taken note of
the contributions from A D Karve which I found very helpful.

I have not yet heard from the community on the details of the current stove they are
using. The only thing I know is that currently they are using firewood to distil the
essential oils. I will pass this information to the list members once I get it.

Many thanks for the feedback and all the other comments I am receiving from the list
members. They are very helpful.

Stephen Gitonga

Ron Larson wrote:

> Stephen (cc stoves):
>
> See some comments below
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stephen Gitonga [mailto:stephen.gitonga@undp.org]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 1:52 PM
> To: Stoves
> Subject: Stover's stove needed for a community distallation unit
>
> <snip>
>
> You said:
>
> "Now the big question to the list members is:
> 1) After removing the essential oils, will the leaves pylolyse easily or
> do you think the removal of the oils have affected the quality of the
> waste as a feed stock for the stove?"
>
> (RWL-1): I think that the combustion will not be as good without the
> oils - but you should still be able to find a way to use them
>
> 2) Which particular stove from the list members would you recommend? Can
> it be modified to heat the distillation unit?can it use the
> waste-leaves?
>
> (RWL2): I believe there should be a range of possible stoves. We need
> to hear more about the present type of stoves being used.
> It is not clear whether your distillation unit is a "large" central unit or
> can be many individual units. Either one should be possible to convert to a
> pyrolysis function. It would be helpful to know the power (kilowatt) rating
> of what you now have. Our stoves on this list are mostly around 2-5 kW.
> yes - it should be possible to use these leaves. In reading about
> Dominica it seems there is a sizeable banana industry also - would those
> leaves also be available?
>
> 3) "Is there a list member(s) who live near Dominica who would be of help
> and willing to make a practical contribution and apply his/her charcoal
> making /gasifying stove technology for this important activity?"
>
> (RWL3): Let us hope trhat someone will respond. We have had some messages
> from and about Haiti and Cuba - but I cannot remember any from the
> Caribbean.
>
> <snip>
>
> 4. You said also
> "In the meantime, I will seek more details on the scale of the operation,
> temperatures that they need for the distillation, the duration of time
> for each batch etc. from the community members.
>
> Regards Stephen Gitonga"
>
> (RWL4): This will be good. My thought is that the discussion we have had
> on this list indicates a need to consider pelletizing. In most stoves, it is
> just not easy to combust or pyrolyze loose leaves. Look especially in our
> archives for the work of Richard Stanley - although several other list
> members have written on this subject. Also the Karves have written on
> pyrolysis of leaves - and you are describing a situation where the waste
> flared pyrolysis gases might be usable for your processing operations.
>
> Best of luck. We look forward to hearing more.
>
> Ron
>
> -
> Stoves List Archives and Website:
> http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200209/
> http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
> >
> Stoves List Moderators:
> Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
> Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
>
> Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon
>
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From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Thu Oct 3 07:10:37 2002
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:14 2004
Subject: Charcoal briquettes from carbonised leaves
In-Reply-To: <000001c26aac$364c89a0$9b47083e@42v2501>
Message-ID: <20021003150657.GA28178@cybershamanix.com>

I think this really points up the need for more development of village or
even individual scale biomass densifiers. Briquette making with glues,
etc. isn't really good enough, we need something like the screw press extruders
but rather than the very nice 50kw press someone posted earlier (last
year??) more on the order of 5-10kw. Ram presses, at least the ones I've seen
that run on a crankshaft, don't densify sufficiently -- does anyone know of any
hydraulic designs?
Or better yet, a cheap source for a small screw press?

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

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From dstill at epud.net Thu Oct 3 09:08:34 2002
From: dstill at epud.net (Dean Still)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:14 2004
Subject: OT(?) Catalytic converters & AT investigation
Message-ID: <003101c26b5a$66d72680$681e6c0c@default>

Dear Bryan,

I think that you will find that "connecting the ingenuity of various
inventors to modern research laboratories with analytical measurement
capabilities" is the dearest dream of stovers. ETHOS, for example, is
intended to facilitate this collaboration not only between inventors but
also in field appropriate technology workers with researchers, engineers,
students, etc. interested in solving real world problems. Connecting high
powered research capabilities to problems brought to light by folks in the
field could be a efficient use of resources...leading to success.

The Eindhoven folks, Sam Baldwin, Mark Bryden, etc. will probably grin
reading this but I do think that given the preliminary work done by many we
are now in a position to do experiments that will define how stoves work in
relatively short order. This better understanding could help millions in the
world. How to make vernacular, fuel efficient, low emission cooking stoves
is a solvable problem with great payback, the wholesale reduction of human
suffering.

In my opinion, a lot of the engineering involved in heat transfer is
accomplished. We know how to get heat into pots and avoid heating the stove
body. Two problems to solve would be how to burn as cleanly as possible and
creating useful, inexpensive refractory materials. Collaboration, "getting
real, measurable, quantifiable results" will help to solve these problems! I
have to add that IMO it is the genius of inventors, those folks who can leap
ahead of the available models, that often lights the road for others to map.

Best,

Dean

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From mantal at hawaii.edu Thu Oct 3 11:21:46 2002
From: mantal at hawaii.edu (Michael J. Antal, Jr.)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:14 2004
Subject: Request for Comment on a Charcoal (Terra petra) Use Question
In-Reply-To: <NGBBKDEHILILFNJPHEFIGEAPCCAA.ronallarson@qwest.net>
Message-ID: <DKEKJFDEBAHEFLPFIOFOAEJLCEAA.mantal@hawaii.edu>

Dear Ron: about 15 years ago Prof. Jim Brewbaker (our renowned expert on
corn and leucaena) asked me for some charcoal. When I asked "What for?", he
explained to me that all growers know that plants grow best in charcoal, and
he was using it to root seedlings. Further evidence of this idea can be
found on my web site (http://www.hnei.hawaii.edu/bio.r3.asp) which displays
a picture of an orchid growing in (only) Macadamia nut shell charcoal. Our
professional orchid growers are testing this charcoal relative to their
usual media. So far, macshell charcoal is the best media they have used.

I have submitted 2 proposals to USDA with our best soil science faculty
aimed at answering the question "Why do plants love to grow in charcoal?".
Neither was funded. In the last proposal I included a brief paragraph with
factual calculations in which I showed that the addition of charcoal to the
soil could be a cost effective way of sequestering carbon from the air.
This idea drove the USDA review panel berserk! I have never received more
insulting reviews. Remarkably, it appears that the ancinent Amazonians
understood the value of adding charcoal to the soil, and while doing this
they effectively sequestered carbon from the air. Think of the investment
involved in what they did! And consider the fact that many generations
benefitted from their investment. It's a good thing that they didn't need
to seek funding from a USDA review panel.

Thanks for bringing this fascinating subject to the attention of the Stoves
discussion group.

Michael.

-----Original Message-----
From: Ron Larson [mailto:ronallarson@qwest.net]
Sent: Saturday, September 28, 2002 10:40 AM
To: stoves
Cc: morey_wolfson@nrel.gov; Tom Reed; Tom Milne; Ralph Overend
Subject: Request for Comment on a Charcoal (Terra petra) Use Question

Stovers (apologies in advance for a too-long message):

1. As most of you know, I am quite morbidly fixated on charcoal as a part
of the stoves options. But I do other things; as a member of its Board of
Directors, I am helping the American Solar Energy Society (ASES) in
fighting our US Department of Energy on its apparent decision to move
emphasis on hydrogen away from renewables towards coal and nuclear
production approaches. In the mention this past week by list-member Tom Reed
of list-member Tom Milne's April submission to us on the relationship
between Hydrogen and Biomass (his report for the IEA) - I reread that Milne
report and had the following (inspiration, dumb idea, wild thought,...?).
The idea is that maybe there is a relationship also with the world of global
warming (GW) and climate change. I hadn't earlier seen much connection to
"stoves", except through our (very important!) work to improve efficiency
and reduce emissions. Our best stoves work on these GW topics has come from
people like Kirk Smith, Dan Kammen, Tami Bond,.....

2. So this most recent idea is that maybe we should be thinking of stoves
as a way to assist even more on GW (and maybe hydrogen - see below) through
not just having a GW-neutral stove - but one that actually pumps CO2 out of
the atmosphere.

3. The only two (Stovers - is this true?) ways I know to do this are
a): to put the CO2 back deep into the ground or oceans as is being studied
by the coal and natural gas folks. I see no hope for this (at least at the
level of stoves) - but ask if anyone on our list sees this (CO2, not C,
removal) as a realistic possibility.
b): sequester the charcoal itself (from stoves or any other biomass
operation) - do not consume it at or near the place of charcoal manufacture.
This is virtually impossible for the coal and natural gas people to argue
for at the stoves level, I believe - so we have this field to ourselves.
[added note for John Davies and others working on coal-fired cooking and
heating stoves - this following idea might also apply to you - after you
obtain coke. I can conceive of that being considered sequestration as
well.)

4. Now one obvious choice for the charcoal to stay out of circulation is
as a carbon filament - useful for its nice (except for cost) properties
(weight, strength, etc). My friend Morey Wolfson today supplied me with
this reference for those who might want to pursue this nice option further:
http://www.byu.edu/news/releases/archive02/May/pyramatrix.htm

5. The other option only became obsessive to me when I spoke on Thursday
with list member Ralph Overend (I think the most knowledgeable biomass
person I have ever met). Ralph pointed me to the August 9 Issue of Science
magazine (pp 920-923)- which is on the subject of "terra petra". A little
time on "google" got me this web site for one of two Thomas Mann news
stories on this topic:
http://www.uvm.edu/~uvmpr/uvmclips/Augustclips/SciencePetersonDirt.html
It is also available for a fee from the Science Magazine website - and
probably with the photos. As this is maybe the most popular science
magazine - you may find it at your local library, which was my first
approach.

6. To whet your appetite, let me say that I found this article to be very
fascinating on many other levels than any so far mentioned by me. To not
keep you in suspense, the article reports that there are big parts (10%?) of
Brazil with a highly productive soil - much different from the typical soil
that we hear is in such danger from the felling of the Amazonian forests.
The difference is that terra petra is a man-made soil - with the main
ingredient (I think and I think they think) being charcoal. It was man-made
starting maybe 1500 years ago with 1/2 to 2 meter depth. Terra petra's
significance was only discovered in the past decade or two. This August
"Science" article reports on the first-ever conference in July on the Terra
petra (dark earth in Portuguese) topic. The big questions raised are: Why
does it work?, How was the charcoal produced? Why are there so many pot
shards in the soil along with the charcoal? Is there some other magic
ingredient in this soil besides the charcoal? Was the reason for man-made
soil (with same-site agricultural longevity measured in millennia) that it
was too difficult to practice slash-and-burn agriculture when your best tool
for cutting big trees was a stone axe? I expect our botanists on this list
like A.D Karve, Harmon Seaver, and Dan Dimiduk to give us these answers. I
personally am going to start putting some charcoal in my (meager) background
garden - just to see why Terra Petra (or charcoal?) works. (There seems to
be no doubt that it does work.)

7. From my limited reading so far, I think that this July meeting was
mainly attended by anthropologists, archaeologists, and soil scientists.
But there may have been some people present thinking sequestration or even
charcoal making - (I intend to ask those there). The idea should certainly
have come up if any Terra Preta Conference attendee had ever been involved
with GW or stoves - as we are talking huge increases in soil productivity
and apparently a long life for the charcoal when placed in the soil. Five
hundred years of dormancy and these terra petra soils are still fantastic
(is the way I interpret the news story).

8. The hydrogen side of this is that some on our list (especially Mike
Antal and Tom Milne) have been involved in the conversion of biomass to
hydrogen - and they (do or could) end up with charcoal as a "waste" material
I believe. There are plenty of others on this list (not me) who know how to
produce hydrogen from biomass - and so I hope they will chime in on how hard
or easy it is to produce mainly H2 and C (with maybe some left over CO2 and
waste heat to do some cooking). I can't think of a better fuel for cooking
than hydrogen (forgetting the issue of cost) - as the only possible (NOX?)
effluent is water. So this alone is a good reason for this list to think
hydrogen once in a while.

9. So I am admitting to have come full circle. I first began developing a
charcoal-making stove in late 1994 and reported first on the "bioenergy"
list in December 1995 (see
http://www.crest.org/discussion/bioenergy/199512/msg00069.html . My highest
value was being then placed on a charcoal-making stove's ability to decrease
the desertification caused by rural charcoal-makers (generated by having
lived in Sudan in 1982 and 1983). Efficiency and emissions reductions were
foreign to me then. In my first message to the Tom-Miles-led-"bioenergy", I
was responding to a Dec. 21 question from Sven Erik-Tiburg (set@mt.luth.se
at that time - haven't heard from Sven in a long time). The stoves list
began a few weeks later because of all this strange talk on charcoal-making
stoves (see http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/199602/msg00000.html for
the first issue of "stoves" - as we were kicked out of "bioenergy" by Tom -
who I ask if there were any earlier stoves discussions on Bioenergy" before
Sven's?). So now almost 7 years later, I am talking about the
advisability of throwing into the ground that which I was striving initially
to obtain. Part of this rationale is my concurrence with the wisdom of what
Tom Reed said in his first message to "stoves" (two later than my first
"stoves" message given above) - that it was better to not burn the charcoal
in a natural draft version of an "inverted down draft" stove. I of course
concur - little useful energy is available after the biomass has been
pyrolyzed - unless the charcoal is moved to a device like a "jiko". What I
have been getting more convinced of over time is that it is the pyrolysis
gases that are most useful for cooking - not the charcoal.

10. Now one last paragraph about this list after seven years. I cannot
think of a better group to approach with this issue. We are unlike most
discussion groups because so few of us think there is any money to be made
in stoves - we are either pyromaniacs or just trying to solve one of the
world's toughest problems. Stoves problems are affecting more people (3
billion?) adversely than any other energy (and health) problem I know of.
We all know that we can contribute to developing better devices - that have
to cost less than $10-$20. We are also very diverse in interest and
background. So with this buttering up - the question for you all is -
should we mention this idea of stoves (and many other pyrolyzers [not
gasifiers]) removing CO2 from the atmosphere out loud? Where does the idea
go wrong? Could the use only of pyrolysis gases for cooking be sufficient
motivation for putting the resulting charcoal back in the ground?
(sufficient because of promised future higher agro-forestry yields) Do we
need to be promoting dollar incentive transfers from the "North" to the
"South" as is being proposed by most sequestration analysts? (and which I am
sure we would need without the apparent advantages of terra petra.) Would
this solve the obstinacy of our President Bush to the Kyoto treaty - if the
South (G-77) was "suddenly" the only group not only reducing their inputs to
GW, but actually taking out our (meaning developed country, for most of us)
own CO2 contributions out for free (or low cost?)? Or will transfer
payments be taken by poor Southern farmers and the charcoal still be burned
anyway? Or can we develop fool-proof methods for ensuring that the charcoal
is indeed sequestered? How does one perform a convincing (to George Bush)
economic argument? How much biomass could be harvested/converted that is
now being digested into unwanted methane (20 times worse than CO2 for GW) by
us (mainly the Southern part of the human race)? How much should those in
the north be willing to pay per consumed Joule to avoid having to cut back
our own wasteful and GW lifestyle? What have I left out?

11. The only people who are doing something outside of what I am suggesting
here are maybe Elsen and Matthew in Nairobi - and A.D and Priya in India -
with their flaring of pyrolysis gases. To them I am saying that perhaps the
charcoal they are preparing is (perhaps - not yet for sure) better (in a
societal sense) put into the ground (maybe with a subidy) to improvev local
growing conditions. To those like Richard Stanley making briquettes out of
ag wastes - I say that is great. (Same for Priya and others with sawdust
stoves.) If this pans out, we just stop the consumption of the briquette
after its pyrolysis phase. To Ray W. in Sri Lanka - this should make your
coppiced tress grow two or there times faster. (I fear that A.D. will tell
me I am wrong - but hope he will first read and analyze the Science article
on which all this is based.)

12. I go into this with this much (but still very sparse) detail so I can
sit back and let others have some sleepless nights. Any sequestration web
sites I should be looking at? (I have found a few that look helpful - and
will pass them on to anyone interested, as this note is already long enough.
I now recognize that the idea of sequestering charcoal is not new - but
maybe using stoves and terra petra is.) Your thoughts? Thanks in advance.

Ron

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From rstanley at legacyfound.org Thu Oct 3 12:09:13 2002
From: rstanley at legacyfound.org (Richard Stanley)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:14 2004
Subject: OT(?) Catalytic converters re: N.A. heating stoves
In-Reply-To: <IKEDKFNCEGGOEHHJPHKDGEEPEFAA.Bryan.Willson@colostate.edu>
Message-ID: <3D9D3CA5.3410AFF2@legacyfound.org>

Bryan,
Well said but lest we forget the real purpose of the effort AND the
fact that those will be using the stovbes need to be a part of the process,
I would strongly emphisise that we devise analogues to our measurements,
such that they can be integrated and indeed fed by actual user experience.

What does "hot" mean to a village user, what does "smoke" mean in terms
of smell ,odor, eye irritation and so on. Can we find orselves with numerical
representations for these phenomena , as a means of involving the
\client populaiton in this 'modern research' ? Paul Anderson at times
has asked about pyrolsis, I think abit courageously, given his social
science backgound in this sea of technical expertise.
Can you imagine a villager 's challange? Yet the same villager
understands pyrolsis perhaps better than we do, by sight, smell and/or
other indicators (intuition?), which we cannot even perceive with our often
pathetically reduced sensory capacity. One only need sit by and watch how
fires are managed during a rural cooking process to bear this out.
A lot of hogwash ? For the pure scientist perhaps: But for the client
we are trying to serve, its daily reality. Let them into the action with
a sincere effort on our part to communicate the quanta in their terms
and you might just be surprised at what they know. Then the analytical
methods will take on a vastly greater value.
Richard Stanley

From rstanley at legacyfound.org Thu Oct 3 12:59:12 2002
From: rstanley at legacyfound.org (Richard Stanley)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:14 2004
Subject: Bugbear-worm virus
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20021003200240.00a8f2b0@localhost>
Message-ID: <3D9CE8EA.B91252D4@legacyfound.org>

I received one as well.
Richard Stanley

Peter Verhaart wrote:

> I received 3 mails containing the above mentioned virus. One of them
> purporting to come from admin@trmiles.com
>
> It contained some text in Malay or Indonesian about addresses.
>
> Peter Verhaart
>
> -
> Stoves List Archives and Website:
> http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200209/
> http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
> >
> Stoves List Moderators:
> Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
> Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
>
> Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon
>
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From crispin at newdawn.sz Thu Oct 3 13:10:33 2002
From: crispin at newdawn.sz (Crispin)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:14 2004
Subject: Follow up on Crispin's Shisa
In-Reply-To: <NGBBKDEHILILFNJPHEFIKEDJCCAA.ronallarson@qwest.net>
Message-ID: <000e01c26b21$f7009ae0$5961fea9@home>

Dear Ron

>2. Q. - Why the name "Shisa"?

Shisa means 'hot' in several languages in the region. I am not stuck on it,
I just have to differentiante the stoves with some fundamental difference in
operation.

>3. I believe "Tsotso" means something like "bits and pieces".

Tsotso means 'twigs' in Shona, the language from the NE 2/3 of Zimbabwe.

>4. I believe that the "tsotso" was developed mainly by David Hancock.

He is a Winiarsky product and the Tsotso stove was the result of David's
work when he got home. It was manufactured for a while commercially (not by
David) with about 2/3 of them sold to the UN for refugees in camps for
displaced Moçambiqueanos. David gave me one in 1987 but it was going to be
too expensive to produce in Swaziland and people didn't use flat bottomed
pots, which it was only suited for. The deep pot shield on the
Shisa/Basintuthu allows a No. 2 cast iron pot to be held and heated
properly, and if the circlips are raise to the top bump a No. 4 can sit on
the deck with partial shrouding. A No. 4 is 4 gallons.

>5. I think the distinguishing thing about the "tsotso" was its use of
>many holes in a removable fuel "basket".

A feature we have not copied is the removable bottom to the basket which was
a replaceable disc of wire mesh, and the parts were all light weight steel.
The middle portion was insulated with vermiculite, something I want to avoid
as I am putting the leaked heat into the incoming air. The Tsotso grate was
a tapered cone, about 135 to 110 diameter, 255mm high with a volume of 2.2
litres.

David told me a few days ago that the height of the whole stove was not
optimized for combustion, it was made that height to suit a woman cooking
while seated on the ground. It had a cut-out in the top skirt to accomodate
a flat frying pan. Our present stove is 50mm higher or so because that is
the height of the available cans.

I am pretty sure the Tsotso had 84 x 7.5mm holes evenly distributed around
the basket-type grate.

>9. Crispin's modifications are two fold - an overall air control (natural
>draft, not a small fan) - and preheat of both primary and secondary air.

The features are:
- batch loading - can cook unattended for over 2 hours with charcoal, 1 hour
with wood;
- removable fire grate so that it can be loaded, examined and lit using
another fire or candle. When burning it is immediately placed into the
stove before it gets hot;
- there are 12 and 8mm holes in the grate, larger on top for secondary air.
The total area is indeed larger than for the Tsotso Stove which is why it
has higher power on max.;
- the grate bottom is cut so it creates a vortex spinning the vertically
rising incoming primary air to create more mixing than was available in the
Tsotso;
- the grate is a single piece cut, bent and shaped from 1.2mm stainless
steel sheet;
- the grate is cylindrical, not tapered, primarily to accept large
briquettes;
- some heat from within the grate passes through the grate to heat the
secondary air trapped between the grate and the secondary air tube;
- some heat passes through the secondary air tube and heats the air between
the stove body and the tube (this region was insulated in the Tsotso Stove);
- primary air is drawn through the portion of the body that is heated by the
secondary air tube which heats it. The driving force is the very much
hotter (lower density) air on the inside of the grate;
- air inflow is controlled by a loose annular ring with 6 holes in it
corresponding to 6 holes in the upper part of the stove body. In the Shisa
stove this ring is inside the stove body and just below the top deck on
which the pot rests;
- the Shisa Stove pot stand is made from a single strip of stainless steel
bent into a circle with 3 fingers protruding inwards to the centre basket
allowing for easy refuelling with large pieces of wood or briquettes.
Different heights are available, 20mm being standard;
- there is a heat shield 5mm inside the top of the stove in which the pot
sits. This considerably reduces the temperature (and losses) through the
top section of the body. This part can be changed to suit different pot
diameters and shapes (like a 3 legged cast iron pot)l;
- the stove has a pail-like wire handle with a plastic grip;
- it has a top lid with a locking ring so that wood, matches, a pot, fuel
grate and pot stand can be kept together inside the unit and easily carried;
- the top lid doubles as an ash tray when the stove is in use, and also
seals what would otherwise be the joint between the stove body and the
ground giving more air control;
- it is expected to sell for about $20 in this area.

There is a different Basintuthu stove (only one) with Tom Reed which I have
not yet described with a different heating arrangement and air control. It
costs a little more but achieves higher air and lower body temperatures.

Regards
Crispin

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From crispin at newdawn.sz Thu Oct 3 14:12:56 2002
From: crispin at newdawn.sz (Crispin)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:14 2004
Subject: Sin-covering eye
Message-ID: <002801c26b2a$a73bae60$5961fea9@home>

Dear Stovers

Taking a minute now I can write a response to the question, "What does
'sin-covering eye' mean?"

First, an eye that sees no evil at all is probably confused and dangerous,
however it is meritorious for us all to bear other things in mind as well.

If a person has 9 good points and 1 bad one, we should pay attention to the
9 and ignore the 1. This is basic etiquette. If a person has 9 bad
qualities and 1 good one, we should concentrate on the 1 and ignore the 9.
This is advanced etiquette.

On an international discussion list there are far more opportunities to
practise the good deed of ignoring /faux pas/ and accidental
overzealousness. This need is prompted by the diversity of languages and
cultures we represent.

On Tuesday evening I was attending a Rotary meeting in the Malkerns Valley.
A boy of about 10 was referred to by the club President (who is an English
second language speaker) as both 'he' and 'she' within the same sentence.
The boy was quite shocked and laughed about it nervously with his younger
sister. He also raised it publicly with the President, correctly pointing
out that he was a boy.

Later I had a talk with the boy and without raising the issue directly,
worked around to the fact that in the language SiSwati there are no gender
words like HE and SHE and HIM and HER. They use a word that means
approximately 'that one'. You ask, 'How is Joe doing at the new job?" and
the response will be, "That one is doing fine."

Well, he though it was pretty dumb and was making hay out of it when I asked
him whether or not it was perhaps more gender neutral to refer to all people
as 'one' rather than having to continuously emphasize what their gender was.
In a world striving for equality, I asked who is right, here? He found this
enlightening and has now opened his sin-covering eye with regards to this
particular type of cross-cultural misstep.

In a discussion group on technical subjects where there is agreement on all
sorts of technical terms and concepts, there is less space to misstep, but
it still happens. I think the spelling of some contributors is consistently
below par. No one says anything because we are interested in the thoughts
and the concepts, not the articulations of the contributor. The
communications continue to be fruitful.

The American author Bobby Mitchell wrote this week to someone on the net,
"...on the merits of your last few missives, I might be tempted to say that
you were combative, sanctimonious and dismissive of others - among other
things. And I'll bet dollars to donuts that that'd be an unfair
characterisation. 'Cos I'll bet in actual fact that you're prolly an
alright guy - and you've gotta lotta frengs who'd prolly even back you up on
that. And it's so easy to be misjudged on the relative merit of a few short
words."

Email is a terrible way to get to know someone, actually and we have to be
more forgiving of the written (especially in haste) word than we do in
personal contact. We all know that by now.

Bobby continues, "In this country, that ain't necessarily considered an
asset: we tend to look at anything in the middle of the road as bein wishy
washy or ill-defined." This applies to our self-image and our image of
others. We want to be correct and extremely correct if possible. Hence the
hair-splitting emails one sees sometimes on Stoves. "Usually, people take
offense at sump'n if they think it's talkin bout them," says Bobby.

In email it is easier to offend than in speech; I have seen that many times.
This means that even though offended, the best plan is to strive for mutual
progress on the topic and avoid taking offense, even if it was intended.
That is the sin-covering eye in action (or non-action).

This morning they asked a question on CNN and invited people to email in
comments, so I did and it was read out a few minutes later: "Crispin P-P
from Swaziland says..." This evening I re-read what I wrote this morning in
haste and it was far more cantankerous than I had planned. CNN looked upon
my digital scribblings and used their sin-covering eye to find something
worthy of repetition to the assembled livingroom lurkers. I hope it has an
effect and the Nigerian woman goes free.

When friends meet, they are quite forgiving of each other's missteps. So
also it should be in a discussion group on stoves. No one is going to get
promoted or elected by the participants. Un-lax! Some people are even
afraid to post something because they fear looking like a twit or being
roundly contradicted, with prejudice, by someone else.

Successful technical discussion across international boundaries and between
people of different cultures requires that one have a moral grounding: a
determination to be inclusive and insightful, and to avoid giving accidental
offense or, shame shame, something deliberate.

This group is the most intelligent bunch I have ever dialogued with on the
net. Enhanced scientific capacity, to be of service to humanity, requires
elevated morals and perspective. We are all worthy and capable of this
calling.

Best wishes to all,
Crispin

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From adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in Thu Oct 3 17:04:11 2002
From: adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in (A.D. Karve)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:14 2004
Subject: salt in the lamp
Message-ID: <000001c26b45$646ee5a0$179ec7cb@adkarvepn2.vsnl.net.in>

Das mentioned using salt in a mantle lamp. I report an
unsuccessful experiment aimed at increasing the light output of a kerosene
wick lamp and a candle. Everybody who has learned chemistry in his school would
remember how a platinum wire dipped in salt solution and held in a gas flame
turned the flame from almost invisible blue to bright yellow. I thought
that the addition of a sodium compound to the kerosene would increase the lux
output of the lamp. (Lux is a psychlolgical measure of the light intensity,
based on the sensitivity of the human eye. The scientific measure is photon flux
or some such parameter). Ordinary salt was tried, but it did not dissolve
in kerosene. Soap was also tried, but that too did not dissolve satisfactorily
in kerosene. I then melted wax and soap together and made a candle out of
it, but it too failed to give a bright yellow flame. It is likely that one
needs higher temperature of the flame of a Bunsen gas burner to make sodium
shine! Or perhaps the soap was made of synthetic detergent and did not contain
any sodium!
A.D.Karve

From snkm at btl.net Thu Oct 3 18:31:31 2002
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:14 2004
Subject: OT(?) Catalytic converters re: N.A. heating stoves
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20021003202235.00af4700@wgs1.btl.net>

Dear Listers

I used to be a huge contributor on the gas list -- and joined this list a
while back -- but due to so much going on (work) I no longer have time to
contribute.

But this message I can't resist replying to.

I live in Xaibe "Village" in Belize Central America. Basically -- it is a
poor Mayan village.

I settled in with an elderly woman (after all -- I am elderly as well) -- a
widow -- and we have been doing fine for almost ten years now -- raising a
large family (hers) -- and am part of a huge extended family.

Though I installed a fine butane gas cooking stove -- the "family" will
only eat beans cooked on a wood fire.

Our standard -- white marl -- fire hearth gave up the ghost about one year
back. And I simply could not find the time to rebuild it.

So I took an old Volks rabbit car tire rim and 3 pieces of 5/8 dia steel
reinforcing rod (for legs) and fabricated -- in about 30 minutes -- a small
"portable" fire hearth.

Filling the hub with marl -- having cut off (by hand with a hack saw) one
rim -- and welding that back on the other side to increase over all height.

We use a salvaged stove wire shelf to lay across the top.

Now -- everyday for the past year beans have been cooked on this stove!!

Often -- after reading these lengthy -- high tech -- posts on this list --
I simply go out and watch the beans cook -- if you get my drift.

We have one daughter -- 28 years -- and her husband and four children
living with us. She cooks beans and hand washes the clothes -- everyday.

I made this stove in a certain manner -- cutting (again by hand --
hack-saw) a "lip" down one side of the rim -- which is bent out to support
long sticks of fire wood.

She starts the fire before I get up -- around 4:00 Am -- and then simply
feeds a length or two of stick in -- to keep the beans a boiling.

There is no smoke --

This stove uses very little wood -- extremely little.

For the life of me -- just what are you people trying to accomplish here??

Should I mount some pictures and present the url for your view?

I guess you could say:

Maybe I have re-invented the wheel??

Really guys -- I thought I had seen everything there is in regards to over
engineering a normally simple process -- but I see new levels of endeavor
here on this list!!

If you have dry firewood -- sticks -- believe me -- in an open hearth fire
pit -- it burns extremely "efficiently" -- cooking extremely well -- and no
smoke!!

Maybe I should walk house to house in this village -- taking picture of all
the fire hearths -- and posting those??

They are all in what we call an out-door kitchen -- some small -- some
large. No chimneys.

The walls are "stick-poles" -- very breezy. These outdoor kitchens are
where the family -- the woman and children -- spend most of their time.

And I probably have the poorest excuse of one in this entire village!

Now -- re-read Richard Stanley's message below!

Peter Singfield
Belize Central, America
(Land of the Free)

At 11:02 PM 10/3/2002 -0800, Richard Stanley wrote:
>>>>
Bryan,
Well said but lest we forget the real purpose of the effort AND the fact
that those will be using the stoves need to be a part of the process, I
would strongly emphisise that we devise analogues to our measurements, such
that they can be integrated and indeed fed by actual user experience.

What does "hot" mean to a village user, what does "smoke" mean in terms of
smell ,odor, eye irritation and so on. Can we find orselves with numerical
representations for these phenomena , as a means of involving the \client
populaiton in this 'modern research' ? Paul Anderson at times has asked
about pyrolsis, I think abit courageously, given his social science
backgound in this sea of technical expertise.

Can you imagine a villager 's challange? Yet the same villager understands
pyrolsis perhaps better than we do, by sight, smell and/or other
indicators (intuition?), which we cannot even perceive with our often
pathetically reduced sensory capacity. One only need sit by and watch how
fires are managed during a rural cooking process to bear this out.

A lot of hogwash ? For the pure scientist perhaps: But for the client we
are trying to serve, its daily reality. Let them into the action with a
sincere effort on our part to communicate the quanta in their terms and
you might just be surprised at what they know. Then the analytical methods
will take on a vastly greater value.

Richard Stanley
<http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Chambers/Chambers.htm>

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From adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in Thu Oct 3 19:13:26 2002
From: adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in (A.D. Karve)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:14 2004
Subject: screw press for making fuel briquettes
Message-ID: <000001c26b57$71f1e440$6a9ec7cb@adkarvepn2.vsnl.net.in>

Dear Mr. Seaver,
we have developed a briquette extruder, modified from a mince meat machine.
It runs on half horse power motor (single phase alternating 220 volts). It
has 4 nozzles of about 20 mm diameter, and has an output of about 100 kg
briquettes per 8 hour shift. We mix flour swept from the floor of the
village flour mill with the char powder, moisten the mass and run it through
the extruder. The sweepings cost Rs. 2 per kg (US Cents 4). I have not
studied the actual pressure generated by this system but the dry briquettes
are sufficiently compact. They don't break during transport and they make a
metallic sound if two of them are struck against each other. The same
extruder can also be used for making briquettes from semidecomposed
agricultural waste. The latter does not need any binder for converting it
into briquettes. Our extruder, along with the motor, the rubber V-belt and
the modified front plate (fitted with four nozzles) costs about US$ 100. We
have already sold several of them locally and the users are quite happy with
them.
-----Original Message-----
From: Harmon Seaver <hseaver@cybershamanix.com>
To: Stephen Gitonga <stephen.gitonga@undp.org>
Cc: elk <elk@wananchi.com>; stoves@crest.org <stoves@crest.org>
Date: Thursday, October 03, 2002 8:38 PM
Subject: Re: Charcoal briquettes from carbonised leaves

> I think this really points up the need for more development of village
or
>even individual scale biomass densifiers. Briquette making with glues,
>etc. isn't really good enough, we need something like the screw press
extruders
>but rather than the very nice 50kw press someone posted earlier (last
>year??) more on the order of 5-10kw. Ram presses, at least the ones I've
seen
>that run on a crankshaft, don't densify sufficiently -- does anyone know of
any
>hydraulic designs?
> Or better yet, a cheap source for a small screw press?
>
> --
>Harmon Seaver
>CyberShamanix
>http://www.cybershamanix.com

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From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Thu Oct 3 19:41:52 2002
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:14 2004
Subject: salt in the lamp
In-Reply-To: <000001c26b45$646ee5a0$179ec7cb@adkarvepn2.vsnl.net.in>
Message-ID: <20021004033742.GA28243@cybershamanix.com>

I recall many years ago trying the salt trick on our Aladdin mantle lamps (we
lived for about 18 years with no electricity or running water and with only wood
for heating and cooking) and it does indeed work to remove the carbon. However,
it also rapidly corrodes the metal burner parts. It was always a sort of
love/hate thing with the Aladdins - such a nice bright light but such a hassle!
When our children were small they would sometimes come home from school
(they had to walk or ski 2 miles through the forest from the road where the
school bus left them off) in the Winter before we did, and we allowed them to
light the regular wick lamps as it got dark quite early, but not the Aladdins,
since they are so hard to regulate and must be carefully watched.
This is the second time today I was reminded of those times -- I was fixing
a drain today on the kitchen sink and things weren't going well. My wife said,
"Why don't you just stick the pipe out through the wall and let it run on the
ground like we used to? And then when it froze up you could run out and pound it
with a hammer to break up the ice." 8-)
How I wish we could return to that life.

On Thu, Oct 03, 2002 at 09:44:07PM +0530, A.D. Karve wrote:
> Das mentioned using salt in a mantle lamp. I report an unsuccessful experiment aimed at increasing the light output of a kerosene wick lamp and a candle. Everybody who has learned chemistry in his school would remember how a platinum wire dipped in salt solution and held in a gas flame turned the flame from almost invisible blue to bright yellow. I thought that the addition of a sodium compound to the kerosene would increase the lux output of the lamp. (Lux is a psychlolgical measure of the light intensity, based on the sensitivity of the human eye. The scientific measure is photon flux or some such parameter). Ordinary salt was tried, but it did not dissolve in kerosene. Soap was also tried, but that too did not dissolve satisfactorily in kerosene. I then melted wax and soap together and made a candle out of it, but it too failed to give a bright yellow flame. It is likely that one needs higher temperature of the flame of a Bunsen gas burner to make sodium shine! Or perhaps the soap was made of synthetic detergent and did not contain any sodium!
> A.D.Karve

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

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From dstill at epud.net Thu Oct 3 20:56:00 2002
From: dstill at epud.net (Dean Still)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:14 2004
Subject: open fires can be great!
Message-ID: <003301c26b74$6bf82c80$8d1e6c0c@default>

Dear Peter,

When my mentor, Dr. Larry Winiarski, visited the small Mexican desert
village where I lived for 10 years, 50 people, far from the next town, he
startled me by saying that the Rocket stove really wouldn't save much fuel
there. Folks knew how to build expert fires and were using first class dry
wood that didn't smoke very much. He recommended instead using a Haybox that
simmered the pinto beans to completion after an initial boil. After a while
some of the younger women in the village were using the Haybox because it
was easier, no more hours watching the fire. The older women wouldn't touch
it.

When I started doing experiments on stoves here in Oregon, the first thing
we did was compare the sand and clay Lorena to an open fire learning that
open fires can be very fuel efficient. Hard to beat, not easy. As Bryan
Willson just said, "Doing a good job, badly", i.e., thinking that any old
stove would be an improvement over the open fire, was a unfortunate mistake.
More often than not, AT workers in the field today believe that open fires
use a tremendous amount of wood. And to make it all complicated, they are
frequently not wrong.

There are many places where folks are making inefficient fires with third
class humid wood (the first class stuff is gone or costs too much) where a
good stove can be helpful. Stoves, maybe to some degree only because you
can't stuff much wood in the small opening to the combustion chamber, can
save biomass. The best stove that I've used can be twice as fuel efficient
as an expertly managed open fire, mostly because the heat transfer to the
pot is optimized.

I've been playing around with a CO combustion analyzer recently and was
dismayed to realize that even "smoke free" fires are pouring CO and most
probably other worse stuff, into the air, right into the faces of the family
member stirring the pot. I remembered how a lot of the kids in my village
had asthma. It would be nice to find a simple way to get rid of these
poisons. Life is hard enough.

Best,

Dean

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From ronallarson at qwest.net Thu Oct 3 21:06:44 2002
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:14 2004
Subject: Reply to Mike Antal on Terra petra
In-Reply-To: <DKEKJFDEBAHEFLPFIOFOAEJLCEAA.mantal@hawaii.edu>
Message-ID: <NGBBKDEHILILFNJPHEFIMEFECCAA.ronallarson@qwest.net>

Hi Mike (cc stoves)

1. You said today:

"Dear Ron: about 15 years ago Prof. Jim Brewbaker (our renowned expert on
corn and leucaena) asked me for some charcoal. When I asked "What for?", he
explained to me that all growers know that plants grow best in charcoal, and
he was using it to root seedlings. Further evidence of this idea can be
found on my web site (http://www.hnei.hawaii.edu/bio.r3.asp) which displays
a picture of an orchid growing in (only) Macadamia nut shell charcoal. Our
professional orchid growers are testing this charcoal relative to their
usual media. So far, macshell charcoal is the best media they have used.

(RWL1). Your picture on your (nice) web site shows charcoal alone. But it
wasn't clear whether Professor Brewbaker (15 years ago) used charcoal alone
or mixed with regular soil. And if the latter, how would you/he/soil
scientists make a decision on optimum charcoal sizes and percentages - both
considering economics and not?

2. You also said: "I have submitted 2 proposals to USDA with our best soil
science faculty
aimed at answering the question "Why do plants love to grow in charcoal?".
Neither was funded. In the last proposal I included a brief paragraph with
factual calculations in which I showed that the addition of charcoal to the
soil could be a cost effective way of sequestering carbon from the air.
This idea drove the USDA review panel berserk! I have never received more
insulting reviews. Remarkably, it appears that the ancient Amazonians
understood the value of adding charcoal to the soil, and while doing this
they effectively sequestered carbon from the air. Think of the investment
involved in what they did! And consider the fact that many generations
benefitted from their investment. It's a good thing that they didn't need
to seek funding from a USDA review panel.

Thanks for bringing this fascinating subject to the attention of the Stoves
discussion group.

Michael.

(RWL2): a. Could you send us that "brief paragraph with factual
calculations"?

b. I have seen a number of articles by agricultural soil scientists now
about the benefits of charcoal additions. Maybe you were just ahead of your
time. I hope you will keep trying with your own soil scientist friends.

c. To others - Mike has a great reputation among people I respect as
someone who knows a lot about making charcoal. He has reported 50-60%
charcoal yield when most everyone else is getting 25%. Mike - maybe the
"ancient amazonians" had some of your skills - and it was maybe not such a
big investment (although I really think you are right).

Ron

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From elk at wananchi.com Thu Oct 3 21:29:51 2002
From: elk at wananchi.com (elk)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:15 2004
Subject: screw press for making fuel briquettes
Message-ID: <00b501c26b66$a702a5c0$2147083e@42v2501>

And here's a picture of our current
version of the meat-mincer style briquetter:

<A
href="http://www.chardust.com/Production/Slide6.html">http://www.chardust.com/Production/Slide6.html

The pressures are quite low- primarily determined
by the length of extrusion pipes affixed to the front plate. We have another
version that allows for the extrusion of a briquette with a hole down the
(longitudinal) middle of the cylindrical briquette. These 'holey briquettes'
burn hotter and quicker when arrayed vertically in the stove..... lots of little
chimneys.

Over the past six years of salvaging vendor's
waste charcoal fines we have moved from a manual ram briquetter made out of
water pipes capable of producing 25 kg briquettes per hour (dry wt.) &
operated by two people through the mechanised No. 32 size meat-mincer also
capable of 25kg output per hour but operated by one person, to a scaled up
version of the same powered by a 7.5 hp motor that produced 75kg per hour to our
current 20 hp unit shown in the picture that does 300 kg per hour.

Now, and better late than never, we are
experimenting with hard-facing techniques. The major drawback of this type of
densification system is abrasive wear on the screw surface. We experience over
25% down time for maintenance- which fortunately is simple enough and only
involves an electric welder, angle grinder and time. And expense.

Cutting profits as narrowly as we do in competing
price-wise with locally produced lump wood charcoal here in Kenya, any
additional expense such as this constant maintenance is potentially crippling to
the business. We are also looking around for the next generation (for us)
briquetter- the twin roller briquetter. I like the idea of this technology, as
wear is practically negligible- pillow-shaped briquettes are produced through
the compression pressures provided between two slowly rotating dimpled
flat-faced rollers.

Anyone know where we can find a good used unit-
something that could produce between 1000 and 2000 kg per hour? I know there's
one out there somewhere with my name on it!

elk
--------------------------Elsen L.
Karstadelk@wananchi.com<A
href="http://www.chardust.com">www.chardust.comNairobi
Kenya

From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Thu Oct 3 21:56:56 2002
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:15 2004
Subject: screw press for making fuel briquettes
In-Reply-To: <00b501c26b66$a702a5c0$2147083e@42v2501>
Message-ID: <20021004055327.GB28786@cybershamanix.com>

While these obviously work well with charcoal, it would be nice to have
something like this that densified any biomass, such as switchgrass, cattail
reeds, or even just the dry leaves dropping from the trees in Fall. I know
Dr. Karve said theirs worked with paritally composted vegetation, but I wonder
about this.
Funny, somehow when he mentioned a meat mincer, I was picturing the small
meat grinder we have for kitchen use and not quite seeing how that would
work. And I know Keith Addison had mentioned these before on another forum, and
I was quite dubious. Seeing the picture was quite enlightening, thanks. Much
bigger!

On Fri, Oct 04, 2002 at 08:26:37AM +0300, elk wrote:
> And here's a picture of our current version of the meat-mincer style briquetter:
>
> http://www.chardust.com/Production/Slide6.html
>
> The pressures are quite low- primarily determined by the length of extrusion pipes affixed to the front plate. We have another version that allows for the extrusion of a briquette with a hole down the (longitudinal) middle of the cylindrical briquette. These 'holey briquettes' burn hotter and quicker when arrayed vertically in the stove..... lots of little chimneys.
>
> Over the past six years of salvaging vendor's waste charcoal fines we have moved from a manual ram briquetter made out of water pipes capable of producing 25 kg briquettes per hour (dry wt.) & operated by two people through the mechanised No. 32 size meat-mincer also capable of 25kg output per hour but operated by one person, to a scaled up version of the same powered by a 7.5 hp motor that produced 75kg per hour to our current 20 hp unit shown in the picture that does 300 kg per hour.
>
> Now, and better late than never, we are experimenting with hard-facing techniques. The major drawback of this type of densification system is abrasive wear on the screw surface. We experience over 25% down time for maintenance- which fortunately is simple enough and only involves an electric welder, angle grinder and time. And expense.
>
> Cutting profits as narrowly as we do in competing price-wise with locally produced lump wood charcoal here in Kenya, any additional expense such as this constant maintenance is potentially crippling to the business. We are also looking around for the next generation (for us) briquetter- the twin roller briquetter. I like the idea of this technology, as wear is practically negligible- pillow-shaped briquettes are produced through the compression pressures provided between two slowly rotating dimpled flat-faced rollers.
>
> Anyone know where we can find a good used unit- something that could produce between 1000 and 2000 kg per hour? I know there's one out there somewhere with my name on it!
>
> elk
> --------------------------
> Elsen L. Karstad
> elk@wananchi.com
> www.chardust.com
> Nairobi Kenya
>
>
>

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

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From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Thu Oct 3 21:58:20 2002
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:15 2004
Subject: open fires can be great!
In-Reply-To: <003301c26b74$6bf82c80$8d1e6c0c@default>
Message-ID: <20021004054225.GA28786@cybershamanix.com>

I think Peter needs to build himself a little Reed/Larson IDD stove out of
tin cans and see for himself what a mind blowing experience it is to watch such
a tiny amount of wood burn so hot for 30-45 minutes. That handful of twigs or
wood pellets would be only the kindling to get an open fire burning.
Admittedly, I didn't grow up in a village where they cooked over open fires
for thousands of years, but I have done an awful lot of cooking on woodstoves,
and also periodically on open fires when camping, and frankly I don't even much
care for sitting around an open fire when camping, let alone cook on one. But
both my wife and I would much rather have a wood cookstove than a gas or
electric one, and now that I know how to build a really efficient small
(IDD) stove, even just making a quick cup of tea wouldn't be much of a hassle.

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

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From jeff.forssell at cfl.se Thu Oct 3 23:08:57 2002
From: jeff.forssell at cfl.se (Jeff Forssell)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:15 2004
Subject: SV: Sin-covering eye
Message-ID: <A11397FBE741D411B2E700D0B74770E9B5D533@tyr.ssvh.se>

Thank you for that very complete and nicely written description of that, for
me, new and useful phrase.

-----Ursprungligt meddelande-----
Från: Crispin [SMTP:crispin@newdawn.sz]
Skickat: den 4 oktober 2002 00:14
Till: Stoves; Bobby Mitchell
Ämne: RE: Sin-covering eye

Dear Stovers

Taking a minute now I can write a response to the question, "What
does
'sin-covering eye' mean?"

If a person has 9 good points and 1 bad one, we should pay attention
to the
9 and ignore the 1. This is basic etiquette. If a person has 9 bad
qualities and 1 good one, we should concentrate on the 1 and ignore
the 9.
This is advanced etiquette.

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From Carl.Carley at eml.ericsson.se Thu Oct 3 23:24:06 2002
From: Carl.Carley at eml.ericsson.se (Carl Carley (EMP))
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:15 2004
Subject: Charcoal briquettes from carbonised leaves
Message-ID: <E3117AE4EC45D511BEC10002A55CB09CFD981A@eukbant102.uk.eu.ericsson.se>

I wonder if a good old fly press would be sufficient, you'll get a couple of tons in one hit. With a couple of people, one to load one to spin the 'balls' I imagine you could get quite a rhythm going.

Carl

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From elk at wananchi.com Fri Oct 4 00:05:19 2002
From: elk at wananchi.com (elk)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:15 2004
Subject: Charcoal briquettes from carbonised leaves
In-Reply-To: <E3117AE4EC45D511BEC10002A55CB09CFD981A@eukbant102.uk.eu.ericsson.se>
Message-ID: <005201c26b7c$6d7fbd40$5d47083e@42v2501>

A 'fly press', Carl? What's that?

Sounds intriguing!

elk

--------------------------
Elsen L. Karstad
elk@wananchi.com
www.chardust.com
Nairobi Kenya

----- Original Message -----
From: "Carl Carley (EMP)" <Carl.Carley@eml.ericsson.se>
To: <stoves@crest.org>
Sent: Friday, October 04, 2002 10:21 AM
Subject: RE: Charcoal briquettes from carbonised leaves

> I wonder if a good old fly press would be sufficient, you'll get a couple
of tons in one hit. With a couple of people, one to load one to spin the
'balls' I imagine you could get quite a rhythm going.
>
> Carl
>
> I think this really points up the need for more development of village
or
> even individual scale biomass densifiers. Briquette making with glues,
> etc. isn't really good enough, we need something like the screw press
extruders
> but rather than the very nice 50kw press someone posted earlier (last
> year??) more on the order of 5-10kw. Ram presses, at least the ones I've
seen
> that run on a crankshaft, don't densify sufficiently -- does anyone know
of any
> hydraulic designs?
> Or better yet, a cheap source for a small screw press?
>
>
> -
> Stoves List Archives and Website:
> http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200209/
> http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
> >
> Stoves List Moderators:
> Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
> Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
>
> Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon
>
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>
>

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From woodcoal at mailbox.alkor.ru Fri Oct 4 00:57:53 2002
From: woodcoal at mailbox.alkor.ru (Yudkevich Yury)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:15 2004
Subject: virus
Message-ID: <00a601c26b84$276cebe0$713fefc3@mshome.net>

Dear Tom and all,
I have received from you the letter having strange appendix
(Cal7tax1.doc.pif). I have not decided to open it. Can be a virus it ?
Sincerely yours Yury

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Reed" <REEDTB@capecod.net>
Sent: Friday, October 04, 2002 10:28 AM
Subject: about charcoal "mametan"

> Dear Yury et al:
>
> I don't know about "mametan", but I recently came across "white charcoal"
> manufactured for the Japanese barbecue market. It scratches glass and
has
> a belllike ring. (Only English word with 3 "l"s in a row?)
>
> We need a charcoal institute to sort all of this out. I have quite a
> collection in my garage.
>
> Yours truly,
>
> Thomas B. Reed: The Biomass Energy Foundation
> 1810 Smith Rd., Golden, CO 80401
> 303 278 0558V; 303 278 0560F
> E-mail: reedtb@compuserve.com
> Stoves List SPONSORS and ARCHIVES:
> http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/stoves-list-archive/
> Stoves Webpage
> http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
> For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
> http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.ht
>

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From andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com Fri Oct 4 01:17:09 2002
From: andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com (AJH)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:15 2004
Subject: virus
In-Reply-To: <00a601c26b84$276cebe0$713fefc3@mshome.net>
Message-ID: <phmqpuc0952drfm0ccroa4ggcfnc0ud4o3@4ax.com>

On Fri, 4 Oct 2002 12:47:58 +0400, "Yudkevich Yury"
<woodcoal@mailbox.alkor.ru> wrote:

>Dear Tom and all,
>I have received from you the letter having strange appendix
>(Cal7tax1.doc.pif). I have not decided to open it. Can be a virus it ?
>Sincerely yours Yury

Yury do not open it it is almost certainly W32.Bugbear@mm a nasty
virus which logs keystrokes and opens your computer to hackers.

This virus comes with as .bat, .pif, .scr, extensions to existing
files in a host computer. The idea is that they get executed by
someone that thinks they are an innocuous .doc or .bmp or other file.

The ones I am getting from members of Crest lists seem to juxtapose
genuine e-mail addresses about the @ sign, Ie. I had one from Peter S
with a zambian domain.

AJH

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From yark at u.washington.edu Fri Oct 4 03:03:43 2002
From: yark at u.washington.edu (Tami Bond)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:15 2004
Subject: answer to Ron, politics, stoves
In-Reply-To: <NGBBKDEHILILFNJPHEFIGEDICCAA.ronallarson@qwest.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.4.44.0210030744520.64876-100000@homer03.u.washington.edu>

Ron, thanks for your guidance & questions.

I think the 'politics' we might like to avoid is crossing the line between
fact (or at least evidence) and opinion. Dr. Karve tells us that India
doesn't have a lot of waste oil, or we hear about what resources are
available/not available in other places-- those facts might have social or
political underpinnings, but I for one want to hear them. What is less
appropriate here is opinionated interpretation such as 'The U.S. has a lot
of waste oil because they are... ^#@$(!@#.'

Likewise with GW, GCC, it is a fact that some Kyoto-style agreement may
come into play and CO2 bean-counting may play a part in energy decisions;
it's also true that political action may address concerns about potential
health/local/ regional/global impacts from stove emissions. The
contentious questions that we might want to steer clear of include why our
energy supply is structured the way it is, whose fault these environmental
problems are, and what should be done about it. (Also, there's scientific
question about the existence of GW, but there are other places for that
discussion.) Comments? (Off-list if too irrelevant)

In order to keep up with Stoves in addition to having day jobs, these list
members have to be fairly bright, passionate people, and I would hate to
limit this nice way of letting like minds connect. I would also be sorry
to miss people pointing out that there IS controversy over certain
stove-related issues. Therefore, I don't think either of the following are
inappropriate:

'There is some argument about this, with one side saying x and the other
saying y. I will expand if anyone is interested in hearing more.'
'This policy bugs the heck out of me, write to me off-list if you want to
trade rants.'

Meanwhile I would like to give a couple of awards: to Crispin for
Well-Written Reflective Tolerance post of the day, and to Kevin for Most
Colorful Description of lines not to cross ;-) The medals are made out of
tincanium.

Tami

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From yark at u.washington.edu Fri Oct 4 03:05:41 2002
From: yark at u.washington.edu (Tami Bond)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:15 2004
Subject: 'Real, measurable...'/Bryan
In-Reply-To: <IKEDKFNCEGGOEHHJPHKDGEEPEFAA.Bryan.Willson@colostate.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.4.44.0210040030150.125036-100000@homer36.u.washington.edu>

Having just argued for fact and against opinion, I now deliver an opinion
piece ;-)

Bryan sez (some good stuff including):

> However, we need to focus more on getting real, measurable,
> quantifiable results...if you can't provide the stoves community with
> reliable quantitative data on performance, I'm not sure it's worth the
> effort.

Dean follows up by describing how stoves might have been made worse
instead of better. Peter reminds us that open fires can be pretty darn
good. And Richard speaks eloquently of sensibilities that rural folks may
have and we ivory-towerites may have forgotten or never developed.

I would advocate a middle way. The fire-builders can 'see' things that
scientific instruments can't, and vice versa. I suspect the well-meaning
but sometimes poorly-executing AT community of a couple decades ago may
have gone wrong by using neither set of senses. Now we know to use both. I
hope we have learned to listen to each other.

There is danger in relying exclusively on intuition. Some pollutants can't
be seen, like CO or very small particles. Different kinds of particles
look different to the eye, and may give the illusion of improvement. Some
efficiency changes might be masked by compensating factors. 'My stove
burns great!' will only go so far.

There is also danger in thinking that lab results are all. What good is a
test that ignores what really happens in practice? What good is a test
method that's too expensive for all but select universities to use? Most
universities don't have time for the tinkering that some stove-heads do as
a hobby. Let's define what's 'reliable' measurement and make it as
disseminable as possible. Then, send out version 2 after feedback. (Is
'disseminable' a word?)

Bring a few measurement toys to indigenous stove-users with curious minds.
Trade them for lessons in what wood they collect and how they know when
it's right for burning. The frontiers of understanding and improvement lie
in the interfaces between the participants.

I heed Bryan's call for partnering universities and stove testers. (I will
do some of that, once I get my own lab set up again.)

There are still problems with smoke or people would not be coughing.
There are still problems with fuel availability that efficiency can
address. These problems may not happen in every biofuel-using community.
It is useful to remember that not everyone needs to be 'saved'.

Maybe we are reinventing the wheel, but there seem to be quite a few
wagons out there hobbling on square wheels.

Lest y'all think I do nothing but philosophize, I am taking a much-needed
break from writing a rather long, hand-waving paper about global
particulate emissions including those from stoves. And still, for sooty
'black' stuff, I get just under 30% of global total from domestic biofuel
and coal. So keep stovin'.

Tami

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From motie at paulbunyan.net Fri Oct 4 08:14:09 2002
From: motie at paulbunyan.net (Motie)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:15 2004
Subject: Sin-covering eye
In-Reply-To: <002801c26b2a$a73bae60$5961fea9@home>
Message-ID: <000801c26bbe$bc69be00$c3c4bfd1@m6o7s4>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Crispin" <crispin@newdawn.sz>
To: "Stoves" <stoves@crest.org>; "Bobby Mitchell" <doc_benway@zianet.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 5:14 PM
Subject: RE: Sin-covering eye

> Dear Stovers
>
> Taking a minute now I can write a response to the question, "What does
> 'sin-covering eye' mean?"
>
> First, an eye that sees no evil at all is probably confused and dangerous,
> however it is meritorious for us all to bear other things in mind as well.
>
<<BIG SNIP>>

Crispin,
Your message was timely and on point. Some may construe my reply as a waste
of bandwidth, but I thought it necessary to express my appreciation and
Thanks.
Motie

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From crispin at newdawn.sz Fri Oct 4 10:04:09 2002
From: crispin at newdawn.sz (Crispin)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:15 2004
Subject: RE open fires can be great!
Message-ID: <032401c26bd1$ef0def80$2a47fea9@md>

Dear Dean

"When I started doing experiments on stoves here in Oregon, the first thing
we did was compare the sand and clay Lorena to an open fire learning that
open fires can be very fuel efficient. Hard to beat, not easy. "

When I lived in Transkei, which is a very windy place, the people would use
a little wall that looks like a letter X to hide the fire from the breeze.
The X was lying on its back and was made from mud bricks, about 2 feet high.
You would pick the side most away from the wind and build the open fire
there.

They were appalling inefficient fires. I would estimate that at times they
were 10% efficient and other, 3% or even less.

The cold winter winds would chill the pots and blow the flames all over the
place. A 15 kph wind on a 2 deg C day is a combustion killer. Taking the
fire indoors, which is not actually very common there, would have cut the
fuel bill by more than half, but that was an expensive option.

Placing the available fuel into a modern small single pot stove with a
windshield for the pot would have done wonders, but these stoves didn't
exist. Now there are real choices.

In perfect conditions, an open fire can be very efficient with the right pot
and configuration of stones, but so can a stove. On the other hand, when
conditions are 'average' the stoves far outperform open fires primarily
because the wind takes away so much heat and chills the pot, even as the
cold air kills the combustion.

Regards
Crispin

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From ronallarson at qwest.net Fri Oct 4 11:53:32 2002
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:15 2004
Subject:
In-Reply-To: <F100GW6Ex3AkwtsQztQ0000025c@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <NGBBKDEHILILFNJPHEFIIEFMCCAA.ronallarson@qwest.net>

Stovers:

After my initial message last Sunday about Terra Petra, I sent out a
general request to attendees at the July meeting in Brazil. I have just
received a first return message containing two nice PDF articles (2001 and
2002) in English from Dr. Bruno Glaser of Beyreuth University in Germany.
Although I have not yet read these, I can see they are valuable. I am also
forwarding them to Tom Miles (cc to Mike Antal) to see if they could/should
be placed on our crest archives. Let me know if you would like to see a
copy - which I am not sending out broadcast because of their length.

The 2001 article is:

Naturwissenschaften (2001) 88:37–41
DOI 10.1007/s001140000193
SHORT COMMUNICATION
Bruno Glaser · Ludwig Haumaier
Georg Guggenberger · Wolfgang Zech
The ‘Terra Preta’ phenomenon: a model for sustainable agriculture
in the humid tropics
Received: 7 September 2000 / Accepted in revised form: 14 November 2000 /
Published online: 24 January 2001
© Springer-Verlag 2001

Abstract Many soils of the lowland humid tropics are
thought to be too infertile to support sustainable agriculture.
However, there is strong evidence that permanent
or semi-permanent agriculture can itself create sustainably
fertile soils known as ‘Terra Preta’ soils. These soils
not only contain higher concentrations of nutrients such
as nitrogen, phosphorus, potassium and calcium, but also
greater amounts of stable soil organic matter. Frequent
findings of charcoal and highly aromatic humic substances
suggest that residues of incomplete combustion
of organic material (black carbon) are a key factor in the
persistence of soil organic matter in these soils. Our investigations
showed that ‘Terra Preta’ soils contained up
to 70 times more black carbon than the surrounding
soils. Due to its polycyclic aromatic structure, black carbon
is chemically and microbially stable and persists in
the environment over centuries. Oxidation during this
time produces carboxylic groups on the edges of the aromatic
backbone, which increases its nutrient-holding capacity.
We conclude that black carbon can act as a significant
carbon sink and is a key factor for sustainable and
fertile soils, especially in the humid tropics.

The 2002 article is:

Biol Fertil Soils (2002) 35:219–230
DOI 10.1007/s00374-002-0466-4
REVIEW ARTICLE
Bruno Glaser · Johannes Lehmann · Wolfgang Zech
Ameliorating physical and chemical properties
of highly weathered soils in the tropics with charcoal – a review

Received: 24 April 2001 / Accepted: 5 March 2002 / Published online: 18
April 2002
© Springer-Verlag 2002

Abstract Rapid turnover of organic matter leads to a
low efficiency of organic fertilizers applied to increase
and sequester C in soils of the humid tropics. Charcoal
was reported to be responsible for high soil organic matter
contents and soil fertility of anthropogenic soils
(Terra Preta) found in central Amazonia. Therefore, we
reviewed the available information about the physical
and chemical properties of charcoal as affected by different
combustion procedures, and the effects of its application
in agricultural fields on nutrient retention and crop
production. Higher nutrient retention and nutrient availability
were found after charcoal additions to soil, related
to higher exchange capacity, surface area and direct nutrient
additions. Higher charring temperatures generally
improved exchange properties and surface area of the
charcoal. Additionally, charcoal is relatively recalcitrant
and can therefore be used as a long-term sink for atmospheric
CO2. Several aspects of a charcoal management
system remain unclear, such as the role of microorganisms
in oxidizing charcoal surfaces and releasing nutrients
and the possibilities to improve charcoal properties
during production under field conditions. Several research
needs were identified, such as field testing of
charcoal production in tropical agroecosystems, the investigation
of surface properties of the carbonized materials
in the soil environment, and the evaluation of the
agronomic and economic effectiveness of soil management
with charcoal.

Keywords Carbon sequestration · Charcoal addition to
soil · Nutrient leaching · Soil amelioration · Sustainable
landuse

Dr. Glaser. Thanks you very much. I shall perhaps have some later
questions after reading these two articles which look extremely pertinent to
our ongoing dialog about a possible stoves contribution to sequestration
discussions.

Ron

-----Original Message-----
From: Bruno Glaser [mailto:bruno_glaser@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, October 04, 2002 11:38 AM
To: ronallarson@qwest.net
Subject:

_________________________________________________________________
Senden und empfangen Sie MSN Hotmail über Ihren PocketPC:
http://pocketpc.msn.de

(RWL): Short attachment Word message not shown.

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From crispin at newdawn.sz Fri Oct 4 23:49:37 2002
From: crispin at newdawn.sz (Crispin)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:15 2004
Subject: Cheap screw press
Message-ID: <003401c26c45$486643c0$2a47fea9@md>

Dear Stovers

>Or better yet, a cheap source for a small screw press?

One of the easiest ways to make a cheap screw press is to buy a large
diameter threaded bar. Threaded bars are amazingly cheap compared with the
cost of cutting one yourself. Pressing honey from a comb, for example, can
be done with a press made from a 36mm threaded bar and a couple of M36 nuts.
Just pick a bar with the desired pitch.

If you are searching a junkyard, get the legs that screw down from a 40 foot
trailer unit. Those are excellent shafts with ACME threads, and a cast iron
'nut' that is made to a high standard. They have a Left and Right hand
thread in the pair.

Regards
Crispin

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From crispin at newdawn.sz Sat Oct 5 00:35:00 2002
From: crispin at newdawn.sz (Crispin)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:15 2004
Subject: Re screw press for making fuel briquettes
Message-ID: <005001c26c4b$95f7fec0$2a47fea9@md>

Dear Stovers

>We are also looking around for the next generation
>(for us) briquetter- the twin roller briquetter

Those with a good memory will recall a Smarties TV commercial showing how
Smarties are made using a chilled pair of rollers with dimples.

But how do they make the blue ones...?

Regards
Crispin

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From adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in Sat Oct 5 03:40:34 2002
From: adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in (A.D. Karve)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:15 2004
Subject: Briquette Maker
Message-ID: <000001c26c67$60f51160$5b82c7cb@adkarvepn2.vsnl.net.in>

The meat mincer comes from a shop. The original equipment comes with a
handle for manual operation, but the motor and V-belt drive are fitted by
the shopkeeper himself, if the client wants them. The outlet plate of a
mincer normally concists of a perforated plate. We remove it and fit it
with another one fitted with 4 tubes, through which four briquettes come out
at a time. The meat mincer is provided with a small cutter with four
blades. The cutter is placed behind this plate. It should not be removed.
The briquette extruder does not work if the cutter blade is removed. The
device could be ready within about a week. Producing the front plate with
nozzles is the tiresome part, because the fabricator, who produces it, has
his hands generally full with other jobs and is reluctant to make just one
piece for us. Therefore one has to pester him. We are planning to buy about
five extruders for our own use and I shall find out if the price can be
reduced by buying the equipment in bulk. You have asked for the price
excluding the transport charges. So far, whenever we have sent anything
abroad, the transport charges were much more than the actual cost of the
equipment. The equipment also has to be packed rather well if it has to be
sent abroad. Please let me know if you are also not interested in the cost
of packing.
A.D.Karve
-----Original Message-----
From: Artsolar@aol.com <Artsolar@aol.com>
To: adkarve@pn2.vsnl.net.in <adkarve@pn2.vsnl.net.in>
Cc: Robbcpc@aol.com <Robbcpc@aol.com>; aklansre@kalibo.i-next.net
<aklansre@kalibo.i-next.net>
Date: Saturday, October 05, 2002 1:48 AM
Subject: Briquette Maker

>Dr. Karve,
>
>I am a colleque of Dr. Reed and Mr. Walt, and read with interest your
>description of the screw press for briquette making.
>
>I am also a board member, along with Mr. Walt, of an NGO in the Philippines
>that could benefit greatly from such a device for its work in rural
>enterprise.
>
>If possible, I would like to purchase a unit and have it shipped to them in
>the Philippines. If this is possible, can you tell me the price of such a
>unit, belt driven, exclusive of shipping charges, and when one could be
>ready?
>
>Regards,
>
>
>Art Lilley
>Community Power Corporation
>306 McChain Rd
>Finleyville, PA 15332
>(724) 348-6386 phone
>(724) 348-8923 fax
>www.gocpc.com
>

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From andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com Sat Oct 5 08:51:45 2002
From: andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com (AJH)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:15 2004
Subject: Cheap screw press
In-Reply-To: <003401c26c45$486643c0$2a47fea9@md>
Message-ID: <bhntpu4a8rgndg150n0jmcefml4eekacgs@4ax.com>

On Sat, 5 Oct 2002 09:57:20 +0200, "Crispin" <crispin@newdawn.sz>
wrote:

>Dear Stovers
>
>>Or better yet, a cheap source for a small screw press?

I think what was being asked here was about a screw extruder, such as
the meat mincer type or Shimano, here the changing pitch of the auger
compresses the material and simultaneously generates a lot of friction
forces to deform the material with shearing forces.
>
>One of the easiest ways to make a cheap screw press is to buy a large
>diameter threaded bar. Threaded bars are amazingly cheap compared with the
>cost of cutting one yourself. Pressing honey from a comb, for example, can
>be done with a press made from a 36mm threaded bar and a couple of M36 nuts.
>Just pick a bar with the desired pitch.

Crispin I think you are describing a simple press as would be used in
cheese or cider making, in fact the fly press mentioned in an earlier
message is a variant of this that uses the inertia of a large mass on
the lever operating the screw to transmit kinetic energy to the screw,
thus "forging" the material being squashed.

I have just been given some 60mm sawdust briquettes produced by
"forging" sawdust with a ram connected to a flywheel and crank. They
have the same glazed appearance on the surface as wood pellets,
suggesting the lignin has flowed at the surface. They are well enough
compacted not to be able to break them by hand.

From andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com Sat Oct 5 08:53:02 2002
From: andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com (AJH)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:15 2004
Subject: Re screw press for making fuel briquettes
In-Reply-To: <005001c26c4b$95f7fec0$2a47fea9@md>
Message-ID: <q05upugmdt4k1vit6q6qbfn1diotttu5f7@4ax.com>

On Sat, 5 Oct 2002 10:31:56 +0200, "Crispin" <crispin@newdawn.sz>
wrote:

>Dear Stovers
>
>>We are also looking around for the next generation
>>(for us) briquetter- the twin roller briquetter
>
Is this above quote from Chardust? ELK previously announced the
arrival of an opposed roller pillow briquette maker, some years back,
did it not work?

>Those with a good memory will recall a Smarties TV commercial showing how
>Smarties are made using a chilled pair of rollers with dimples.

I have seen pills being made on a belt with similar dimples. From what
I am told these opposed roller machines operation is an art, the
compression pressure has to be sufficient to make the two halves of
the briquette to cohere and their combined weight must over come the
adhesion to the wheel.

They are still used here UK to make smokeless coal.

I still wonder if a cheap adhesive could be found and coupled with
aggregate theory [1] (as expounded in one of Dean Still's recent posts
on binding insulation), make a whole biomass briquette, like Paul S,
but with a bulk density higher than 250kg/m3. Thus avoiding the
expense of making a dense briquette/pellet with current bulk densities
around 600kg/m3 which is "too" good for most needs.

Harking back to a post on glycerine being a valuable commodity, it may
be when in uncontaminated form, I use it from a friend who owns 3 fish
and chip shops, he converts the waste oil by transesterification and
runs a motor home on it, he freely gives me the glycerine, which is
contaminated brown and a waxy sludge at room temperature and I use it
to "modify" the consistency of my starch bound charcoal briquettes. I
suspect it would be useful as a total loss lubricant in extrusion
systems. I see a number of "problem" wastes that would make useful
binders but current regulations make them unacceptable here, so they
are incinerated ant great cost.

I would endorse the comment that all char is not the same, on one
occasion I had to dispose of some mouldy carrots, I retort charred
them, I found the char was very difficult to keep alight, as with the
leaves it may have something to do with the ash content interfering
with the burn. I look forward to Steven Gitonga posting more details
of the distillation process as I was asked to look into this for
distilling lavender oils for a local scheme here, in the event the
work was awarded elsewhere and I did not see the results. My main
question is is the oil water soluble?

[1] The aggregate theory if successfully applied will control
comminution costs as the smallest particles with the highest
comminution cost will only be a small portion of the mix. I know
experiments with charcoal have found this to be the case.

AJH

I realise I have lumped a number of topics under the wrong subject
line, it's my revenge for people who post in html :-)

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From Carefreeland at aol.com Sat Oct 5 11:53:19 2002
From: Carefreeland at aol.com (Carefreeland@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:15 2004
Subject: walking stove
Message-ID: <2DE78BED.0590EBD3.0BAF4B1C@aol.com>

In a message dated Sat, 21 Sep 2002 11:40:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, yark@u.washington.edu writes:
>> Dans comments
>
> The stove itself doesn't have to be low-mass; but the mass ought to be
> thermally insulated from the combustion chamber. Right? Apro's Justa stove
> is a good example-- inside, the Rocket elbow is insulated from the mass
> that forms most of the body. Have people tried adding a
> heavy base to a
> light stove? Does this make shipping prohibitive?
>
> Tami

>> What about a stove that easily bolts or attaches to a common material as a base. How about a space for a couple of bricks or some sand/dirt ballast built into the base?
>>Modular construction is the way of versitility. Make modular stoves that use a common chimney and base. Just put in the stove for the job. this would help for tincanium stoves that need frequent service and replacement.
>> Daniel Dimiduk- on a borrowed computer.

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From Gavin at roseplac.worldonline.co.uk Sat Oct 5 12:22:48 2002
From: Gavin at roseplac.worldonline.co.uk (Gavin Gulliver-Goodall)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:15 2004
Subject: Re screw press for making fuel briquettes
In-Reply-To: <q05upugmdt4k1vit6q6qbfn1diotttu5f7@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJLGAAFJBOBCKKPMGMENKCGAA.Gavin@roseplac.worldonline.co.uk>

I have seen a huge "double roller" press designed for manufacture of
briquettes from straw. It was very big, very complicated and had a large
diesel engine and hydraulic system.
They put tooo much straw in the first time they tried it and it is now
broken beyond repair. - most of the useful bits have disappeared
Cheers
gavin

Gavin Gulliver-Goodall
3G Energi,

Tel +44 (0)1835 824201
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-----Original Message-----
From: AJH [mailto:andrew.heggie@dtn.ntl.com]
Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2002 17:48
To: Stoves
Subject: Re: Re screw press for making fuel briquettes

On Sat, 5 Oct 2002 10:31:56 +0200, "Crispin" <crispin@newdawn.sz>
wrote:

>Those with a good memory will recall a Smarties TV commercial showing how
>Smarties are made using a chilled pair of rollers with dimples.

They are still used here UK to make smokeless coal.

AJH

I realise I have lumped a number of topics under the wrong subject
line, it's my revenge for people who post in html :-)

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From andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com Sun Oct 6 01:39:43 2002
From: andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com (AJH)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:15 2004
Subject: Cheap screw press
In-Reply-To: <003401c26c45$486643c0$2a47fea9@md>
Message-ID: <2v00qu08a8v586jnbrahu8ad9656gdl2l8@4ax.com>

Just to correct a couple of mistakes in my last post

On Sat, 05 Oct 2002 17:47:48 +0100, AJH <andrew.heggie@dtn.ntl.com>
wrote:

>I think what was being asked here was about a screw extruder, such as
>the meat mincer type or Shimano, here the changing pitch of the auger
>compresses the material and simultaneously generates a lot of friction
>forces to deform the material with shearing forces.

The screw extruder that makes the octagonal briquettes with a central
hole is a SHIMADA, thanks to John Olsen from Canada's Cree Industries
for the correction. The process is visualised at
http://www.heatloginc.com/.

In my later post I attributed Paul Sanderson with work on an agriwaste
pellet when I should have said Richard Stanley of the Legacy
foundation http://www.legacyfound.org/ but little illustration of the
process

AJH

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From andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com Sun Oct 6 02:15:54 2002
From: andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com (AJH)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:15 2004
Subject: Re screw press for making fuel briquettes
In-Reply-To: <q05upugmdt4k1vit6q6qbfn1diotttu5f7@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <eb10qu4hllucf3h43tq6hvhih32qskavjs@4ax.com>

On Sat, 5 Oct 2002 21:19:36 +0100, "Gavin Gulliver-Goodall"
<Gavin@roseplac.worldonline.co.uk> wrote:

>I have seen a huge "double roller" press designed for manufacture of
>briquettes from straw. It was very big, very complicated and had a large
>diesel engine and hydraulic system.
>They put tooo much straw in the first time they tried it and it is now
>broken beyond repair. - most of the useful bits have disappeared
>Cheers
>gavin
>

One of the major agricultural firms here in UK is reputed to have made
a straw harvesting device to work behind a combine harvester. I am
told it produced straw "pucks" but have not been able to see any
pictures or references to it. In UK straw would be a major energy
resource and renewable, if the nutrient in the ash were recycled. I am
told its chlorine content causes some problems when burning.

With the various high density compression techniques requiring <2% of
their energy in electricity to form them, the cost in energy seems
rather modest, given a small prime mover working at 20% thermal
conversion to motive power this moves to the order of 10% (or worse if
biomass fueled), add similar amounts for comminution and more for
drying and it adds up. From the developed world's perspective it is
the capital, transport and labour costs that dominate the equation.
Hence my thoughts on producing a less dense whole product using a
binder.

AJH

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From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Sun Oct 6 06:57:59 2002
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:15 2004
Subject: Re screw press for making fuel briquettes
In-Reply-To: <q05upugmdt4k1vit6q6qbfn1diotttu5f7@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <20021006145438.GA7059@cybershamanix.com>

On Sun, Oct 06, 2002 at 11:12:25AM +0100, AJH wrote:

(snip)
>
> With the various high density compression techniques requiring <2% of
> their energy in electricity to form them, the cost in energy seems
> rather modest, given a small prime mover working at 20% thermal
> conversion to motive power this moves to the order of 10% (or worse if
> biomass fueled),

Worse? Does this hold true if the biomass is gasified to run the engine?

> add similar amounts for comminution and more for
> drying

I'm thinking that I read somewhere that the high pressure of the extrusion or
pelletizing process dried material fairly well, but can't think of where I got
that. Certainly not on John Olsen's Cree Industries site (Shimada) as it says
"dry and shredded Biomass."

> and it adds up. From the developed world's perspective it is
> the capital, transport and labour costs that dominate the equation.
> Hence my thoughts on producing a less dense whole product using a
> binder.
>
I guess I've never been much of a businessman, so I have a bit of trouble
with the economics of it, but it seems to me that if you are starting off with
large quantities of cheaply grown/harvested biomass -- say cattail reeds or
switchgrass -- and fueled the entire process of pelletizing that biomass via
gasification of same to run the engine, the substantial heat from the engine
used to dry the biomass that there is still room for substantial profit.
Even more so if the "harvesting" is in the form of some sort of
bioremediation project whereby you might get paid for the "removal" of the
biomass, as in cattail eradication or even simply driving along city streets
sucking up the piles of leaves -- something cities might be willing to pay for
rather than have to do themselves at greater cost.
Obviously the last paragraph is not a Third World scenario, but still --
even there, at least in areas of scarce firewood, there would seem to be a place
for the high compression/extrusion technology, if the machinery were cheap
enough. Or are you saying that you can make "good enough" briquettes out of
grasses/leaves/reeds/whatever with binders and low compression? Most of what I
see people doing with that involves charcoal, which is quite a bit different.

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

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From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Sun Oct 6 07:13:53 2002
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:15 2004
Subject: Cheap screw press
In-Reply-To: <003401c26c45$486643c0$2a47fea9@md>
Message-ID: <3DA05270.3070404@cybershamanix.com>

Crispin wrote:

> If you are searching a junkyard, get the legs that screw down from a 40 foot
> trailer unit. Those are excellent shafts with ACME threads, and a cast iron
> 'nut' that is made to a high standard. They have a Left and Right hand
> thread in the pair.

Are the screws inside a square steel leg? I went looking at some
older semi-trailers yesterday, and altough they definitely have the
two-speed crank mechanism to raise/lower them, I can't see any threads,
at least without taking them apart. I had thought previously that they
were a rack & pinion device.

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

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From crispin at newdawn.sz Sun Oct 6 07:41:47 2002
From: crispin at newdawn.sz (Crispin)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:15 2004
Subject: Cheap screw press - Harmon
Message-ID: <001b01c26d4f$7f7f7a60$e11bfea9@home>

Dear Harmon

>Are the screws inside a square steel leg?

Yes. They are held together with pins normally, and when you get them
apart, there is a gear of some sort on top that rotates a central threaded
rod. The 'nut' is usually a square thing that sits at the top of the lower
(moving) half of the leg. The nut is held still but hte upper square tube
and the rotation of the shafe drives it downwards.

Ima not quite sure why there are left-right threaded pairs - can't remember.
The point is that to get a powerful thrust with a low power input, it should
be an ACME or better thread, i.e. ACME, Square or buttress thread -
collectively called power transmission threads.

ACME threads won't usually turn when vibrated so they are used on the
trailer wheels.

>I had thought previously that they were a rack & pinion device.

My feeling is that they are all worm and gear drives hooked to screw and nut
legs.

They are maintainable devices so they can be taken apart, greased and
reassembled. This makes them idea part sources for screw presses. If the
nut is cast steel instead of cast iron, you can even weld them to framework.

Regards
Crispin

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From ronallarson at qwest.net Sun Oct 6 08:34:33 2002
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:15 2004
Subject: Reply to Andrew on "binding machines" (or alternatives)
In-Reply-To: <eb10qu4hllucf3h43tq6hvhih32qskavjs@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <NGBBKDEHILILFNJPHEFIGEGGCCAA.ronallarson@qwest.net>

Hi Andrew (cc stoves:

You said today about in-field ag-waste briquetting machines:"
"From the developed world's perspective it is
the capital, transport and labour costs that dominate the equation.
Hence my thoughts on producing a less dense whole product using a
binder."

I think your variables also apply to the developing world, and so would
like to hear more from you and the whole list about "binders". At last
year's Ethos meeting in Seattle, there was a non-list member (name lost),
who had decided that a "rope" (actually a short length of ship's hawser -
which I think was about 4-6 cm diameter) of dried biomass made sense (his
having seen a lot of tall (maybe "elephant") fire-hazardous grass in a place
like Uganda or Kenya. We tried burning it in an Approvecho "Rocket". Test
very short, but all seemed OK. Of course rural folk have made their own
ropes for millenia.

I think that a similar material would pyrolyze well in a charcoal-making
stove - numerous pieces sitting vertically - but am aware of no tests. Sort
of llike the bamboo pieces we have talked about.

I also have seen workers making cigars by rolling biomass into a very tight
"rope" that stays together in some mysterious way known to the industry.

I have a feeling you are reminding us of an earlier message of yours on
"binding" - could you repeat this and explain anything more you might have
on costs or shapes/weights/thicknesses, etc.

I like what the Karves are doing making charcoal in the field, since it
would be lost anyway I gather - but if one had equally economical in-field
binding, rolling, or rope-making - then perhaps a great deal more useful
energy could be captured from this ag-waste - and still have the same amount
of charcoal in the end.

Ron.

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From Gavin at roseplac.worldonline.co.uk Sun Oct 6 10:58:30 2002
From: Gavin at roseplac.worldonline.co.uk (Gavin Gulliver-Goodall)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:15 2004
Subject: Re screw press for making fuel briquettes
In-Reply-To: <20021006145438.GA7059@cybershamanix.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJLGAAFJBOBCKKPMGAENNCGAA.Gavin@roseplac.worldonline.co.uk>

-----Original Message-----
From: Harmon Seaver [mailto:hseaver@cybershamanix.com]
Sent: Sunday, October 06, 2002 15:55
To: AJH
Cc: Stoves
Subject: Re: Re screw press for making fuel briquettes

On Sun, Oct 06, 2002 at 11:12:25AM +0100, AJH wrote:

[GGG] <snip>[GGG] Some pellet machines calim to remove moisture some
certainly don't.
I guess I've never been much of a businessman, so I have a bit of
trouble
with the economics of it, but it seems to me that if you are starting off
with
large quantities of cheaply grown/harvested biomass -- say cattail reeds or
switchgrass -- and fueled the entire process of pelletizing that biomass via
gasification of same to run the engine, the substantial heat from the engine
used to dry the biomass that there is still room for substantial profit.
[GGG] I think the key is reliability, and automation. As well as capital
cost for low value product.
Gasifiers don't seem to work to run engines in the west but do cost a lot.
To keep them running requires skilled labour
Pellet/briquette machines cost a lot.
The compressed biomass has to sell for less or the same as the alternative
(Oil or Natural gas)
Transporting uncompressed biomass (Probably with high water content) is also
expensive and becomes unsustainable after about 50 km
So not much profit after the bankers have been paid off.

Even more so if the "harvesting" is in the form of some sort of
bioremediation project whereby you might get paid for the "removal" of the
biomass, as in cattail eradication or even simply driving along city streets
sucking up the piles of leaves -- something cities might be willing to pay
for
rather than have to do themselves at greater cost.
Obviously the last paragraph is not a Third World scenario, but still --
even there, at least in areas of scarce firewood, there would seem to be a
place
for the high compression/extrusion technology, if the machinery were cheap
enough. Or are you saying that you can make "good enough" briquettes out of
grasses/leaves/reeds/whatever with binders and low compression? Most of what
I
see people doing with that involves charcoal, which is quite a bit
different.

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

Gavin Gulliver-Goodall
3G Energi,

Tel +44 (0)1835 824201
Fax +44 (0)870 8314098
Mob +44 (0)7773 781498
E mail Gavin@3genergi.co.uk <mailto:Gavin@3genergi.co.uk>

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From andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com Sun Oct 6 15:03:53 2002
From: andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com (AJH)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:15 2004
Subject: Re screw press for making fuel briquettes
In-Reply-To: <q05upugmdt4k1vit6q6qbfn1diotttu5f7@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <5cc1quc8v8tnjmqs3bdkdvgtd2tj9ud8g5@4ax.com>

On Sun, 6 Oct 2002 09:54:38 -0500, Harmon Seaver
<hseaver@cybershamanix.com> wrote:

>> With the various high density compression techniques requiring <2% of
>> their energy in electricity to form them, the cost in energy seems
>> rather modest, given a small prime mover working at 20% thermal
>> conversion to motive power this moves to the order of 10% (or worse if
>> biomass fueled),
>
> Worse? Does this hold true if the biomass is gasified to run the engine?

Unless we are talking about a large >1MW(e) sophisticated biomass
power plant I am sure it does, optimistically a downdraught gasifier
feeding a SI engine will fall below 80% cold gas efficiency, the SI
engine is unlikely to better 25% unless it is >100kW(e). In fact 17%
may be the best achievable at the 45kW(e) to run a 500kg/hr press. Of
course you do then have more than ample low grade heat to dry your
sawdust. I can see a better route but doubt the additional capital
cost would ever warrant it.
>
>> add similar amounts for comminution and more for
>> drying
>
> I'm thinking that I read somewhere that the high pressure of the extrusion or
>pelletizing process dried material fairly well, but can't think of where I got
>that. Certainly not on John Olsen's Cree Industries site (Shimada) as it says
>"dry and shredded Biomass."

It looks like the sawdust has to be pretty dry entering the press or
the steam volatisation, from friction in the die, prevents the wood
getting hot enough to plasticises the lignin. Funnily enough, after
drying, the sawdust is "conditioned" with superheated steam to reduce
internal friction and allow particles to slide together. The SHIMADA
(I realised the Shimano I originally called it is my bike's gears)
product shows the surface of the heatlogs get hot enough for charring
on the surface. Plainly if you put wood in at 10% and much of the
energy of the motor is expended as friction between the wood and the
die some of the heat will be expressed as steam. On little pellets in
a ring die I believe the output is down to 4%, and that factet is
interesting in itself when considering what is happening and how we
could reduce the power needed towards the theoretical amount required.
>
>> and it adds up. From the developed world's perspective it is
>> the capital, transport and labour costs that dominate the equation.
>> Hence my thoughts on producing a less dense whole product using a
>> binder.
>>
> I guess I've never been much of a businessman, so I have a bit of trouble
>with the economics of it, but it seems to me that if you are starting off with
>large quantities of cheaply grown/harvested biomass -- say cattail reeds or
>switchgrass -- and fueled the entire process of pelletizing that biomass via
>gasification of same to run the engine, the substantial heat from the engine
>used to dry the biomass that there is still room for substantial profit.

I actually like your choice of crops, they have a number of advantages
over wood for this.

I don't believe there is substantial profit to be made in biomass to
power at all. You raise some points though. Natural gas is one
unbeatable fuel, to move it 4000km in a pipe you need to expend 10% of
its mass in an off the shelf turbine compressor at the well head, in
fact I suspect this 10% falls out as lpg so its even more straight
forward. Now work out the same for moving biomass 100km into a central
plant and refining it to a densified product, even allowing your chp
system to densify and dry the product in an advanced combined cycle
gas/steam turbine, likely to need a scale of 6MW(e) to reach 31%
thermal to electrical conversion (this means about 100k tonne of as
harvested wood I think).

> Even more so if the "harvesting" is in the form of some sort of
>bioremediation project whereby you might get paid for the "removal" of the
>biomass, as in cattail eradication or even simply driving along city streets
>sucking up the piles of leaves -- something cities might be willing to pay for
>rather than have to do themselves at greater cost.

Yes as you say this is a developed world scenario, most of the pellets
traded seem to be from a source whose prime product (sawn wood)
subsidises the disposal of the offal where no local fiber markets
exist.

> Obviously the last paragraph is not a Third World scenario, but still --
>even there, at least in areas of scarce firewood, there would seem to be a place
>for the high compression/extrusion technology, if the machinery were cheap
>enough. Or are you saying that you can make "good enough" briquettes out of
>grasses/leaves/reeds/whatever with binders and low compression? Most of what I
>see people doing with that involves charcoal, which is quite a bit different.

I am simply saying that whilst I prefer to meter a fuel into a fire,
in the form of small pellets, the current high density pellet is too
good for the purpose of providing a cheap fuel for rural cook stoves.
I also believe there is a route from woody residues via pyrolysis to
an alternative product, which I believe ELK has demonstrated uses
little power or capital cost. His cost however is the loss of 70% of
the heat in the wood.

AJH

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From andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com Sun Oct 6 15:05:28 2002
From: andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com (AJH)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:16 2004
Subject: Reply to Andrew on "binding machines" (or alternatives)
In-Reply-To: <eb10qu4hllucf3h43tq6hvhih32qskavjs@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <n7e1qugcaek0a30657vgiunt23uknk339i@4ax.com>

On Sun, 6 Oct 2002 10:35:29 -0600, "Ron Larson"
<ronallarson@qwest.net> wrote:

>Hi Andrew (cc stoves:

Hi Ronal (cc stoves is interesting because some correspondence goes
offlist by default inadvertently, I have replied to list)
>
>You said today about in-field ag-waste briquetting machines:"
> "From the developed world's perspective it is
>the capital, transport and labour costs that dominate the equation.
>Hence my thoughts on producing a less dense whole product using a
>binder."
>
> I think your variables also apply to the developing world, and so would
>like to hear more from you and the whole list about "binders". At last
>year's Ethos meeting in Seattle, there was a non-list member (name lost),
>who had decided that a "rope" (actually a short length of ship's hawser -
>which I think was about 4-6 cm diameter) of dried biomass made sense (his
>having seen a lot of tall (maybe "elephant") fire-hazardous grass in a place
>like Uganda or Kenya. We tried burning it in an Approvecho "Rocket". Test
>very short, but all seemed OK. Of course rural folk have made their own
>ropes for millenia.

Tom Reed and I ended up discussing this off list a while back. I have
seen a number of attempts to pick up forestry residues, the most
successful was a baler that made a continuous sausage and bound it
with baler twine. Having seen a straw "rope" maker I was keen to scale
this up and add a bit more compression. I was looking at reducing on
site comminution costs and achieving transport densities of >250kg/m3,
which until huge walking floor trailers became available was the magic
figure needed to optimise large scale transport over >50km.

With the straw rope (made to make archery targets by laying the rope
in a spiral glued with pva) baler twine was bound around the rope to
hold it in place, from other work on baling we had found that if more
compression was applied the withies held together quite well and only
needed modest retention with a binding twine. I suspected this was a
bit like the way wool behaves when washed in too high a temperature,
the movement of jagged bits over each other during compression caused
"hooking" which was not released when the tension was removed. Anyway
I have not interested anyone in developing anything (yet).
>
> I think that a similar material would pyrolyze well in a charcoal-making
>stove - numerous pieces sitting vertically - but am aware of no tests. Sort
>of llike the bamboo pieces we have talked about.
>
> I also have seen workers making cigars by rolling biomass into a very tight
>"rope" that stays together in some mysterious way known to the industry.

Yes this is a good analogy.
>
> I have a feeling you are reminding us of an earlier message of yours on
>"binding" - could you repeat this and explain anything more you might have
>on costs or shapes/weights/thicknesses, etc.

Not offhand, I will try and rummage though some stuff but I have
several "stoves" posts which I have not had time to respond on in my
"to do" box.
>
> I like what the Karves are doing making charcoal in the field, since it
>would be lost anyway I gather - but if one had equally economical in-field
>binding, rolling, or rope-making - then perhaps a great deal more useful
>energy could be captured from this ag-waste - and still have the same amount
>of charcoal in the end.

This is what we talked about when you were here, I gather some places
have a flash fire through the crop first to cut the handling
necessary. Plainly the advantage in removing the whole crop is the
increase in total energy harvested, it is only worth doing if the
resulting refined fuel still contains that energy. Just as in corn
harvesting, the sugar refinery probably wants to separate the short
lengths destined for the crusher as soon as possible. From a holistic
point of view I have never fathomed why the combine harvester became
so dominant. It struck me that removing the whole crop and then
sorting it into food and fuel made more sense, modern agri economics
precludes this. Similarly modern mechanical forestry harvesting
precludes this. Now I quite like the idea of a machine making a rope
which is subsequently chopped to just the right length to run an idd
stove for a precise time and consistent (and variable) power output. I
think it is possible but I would need a fan to do it, too many listers
in the field have said this is not acceptable.

AJH

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From adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in Sun Oct 6 16:23:07 2002
From: adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in (A.D. Karve)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:16 2004
Subject: rope from biomass
Message-ID: <000101c26d9b$288a35a0$1456c5cb@adkarvepn2.vsnl.net.in>

Dear Ron,
your idea of a rope is interesting. I have seen lengths of
wrist-thick hawsers being used as torches (probably soaked lightly in oil)
in some of our religious festivals, but they would be too costly to be
burned as cooking fuel. We had tried to make ropes of sugarcane
leaves in the past, in order to accommodate more biomass in the retorts. But
when the retorts were filled with tightly packed ropes of sugarcane leaves,
the latter did not char well. Most probably the tightly packed leafy
biomass acted as an insulator and the heat from outside was prevented from
reaching the biomass in the centre of the retort. I shall see if the
sugarcane leaves can be made into transportable ropes. The leaves may have
to be wetted in order to reduce their elasticity and brittleness, before
twisting them into ropes. If the idea works, we shall have to design a rope
making machine!
A.D.Karve

From elk at wananchi.com Sun Oct 6 20:50:30 2002
From: elk at wananchi.com (elk)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:16 2004
Subject: Roller briquetter
In-Reply-To: <005001c26c4b$95f7fec0$2a47fea9@md>
Message-ID: <002301c26dbc$b29fede0$5047083e@42v2501>

AJH asks;

>>We are also looking around for the next generation
>>(for us) briquetter- the twin roller briquetter
>
>Is this above quote from Chardust? ELK previously announced the
>arrival of an opposed roller pillow briquette maker, some years back,
>did it not work?

SORE POINT! Good memory Andrew.... We did indeed buy a used unit from a
dealer in New Jersey. Sounded good at the time- a Hutt double roller
compactor capable of over 500 kg per hour with adjustable speed etc. The
outputted briquettes were described as being two inches long by 1 inch
wide...... bit small but O.K. we thought.... BIG disappointment when it
finally arrived and we discovered the missing vital statistic: the
briquettes were only a quarter inch thick!

We tried to get rollers with larger dimples- not availablefor this model.
Then we ground out the separations between every other dimple to see if we
could get double-sized & thicker briquettes..... nope. The rollers are too
small in diameter to 'bite' enough material to compress properly, and this
machine cannot be converted to accept larger rollers- so we are informed by
the dealers.

So it sits here..... all $15,000 worth of finely-tooled German technology.
Now with ruined rollers as well.

Living & learning. R&D can be very expensive.
elk

--------------------------
Elsen L. Karstad
elk@wananchi.com
www.chardust.com
Nairobi Kenya

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From elk at wananchi.com Sun Oct 6 22:41:34 2002
From: elk at wananchi.com (elk)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:16 2004
Subject: straw briquettes
Message-ID: <003801c26dcc$25d0ebc0$2cdafea9@42v2501>

I've had some experience with straw briquette
'logs' here. About 10 years ago I was processing Nile Perch filleting waste to
fishmeal & used compressed straw logs as a fuel for clarifying fish oil
by-product (to be used as boiler fuel).

Though hard and dense- with an attractive glaze to
the surface- these logs could in no way be compared favourably with wood as a
fuel. They expanded upon burning and created much smoke, little flame and a lot
of ash.

All biomass is not equal when it comes to it's
value as fuel.

elk

--------------------------Elsen L.
Karstadelk@wananchi.com<A
href="http://www.chardust.com">www.chardust.comNairobi
Kenya

From mantal at hawaii.edu Mon Oct 7 10:30:28 2002
From: mantal at hawaii.edu (Michael J. Antal, Jr.)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:16 2004
Subject: Glaser's papers
In-Reply-To: <NGBBKDEHILILFNJPHEFIIEFMCCAA.ronallarson@qwest.net>
Message-ID: <DKEKJFDEBAHEFLPFIOFOAEKGCEAA.mantal@hawaii.edu>

Hi Ron: you have done a great service to the community by obtaining these
articles so quickly. They are among the most interesting I have read. I
strongly endorse your proposal to archive them! Michael.

-----Original Message-----
From: Ron Larson [mailto:ronallarson@qwest.net]
Sent: Friday, October 04, 2002 9:54 AM
To: Stoves@crest.org; Bruno Glaser
Subject: RE:

Stovers:

The 2001 article is:

The 2002 article is:

Received: 24 April 2001 / Accepted: 5 March 2002 / Published online: 18
April 2002
© Springer-Verlag 2002

Keywords Carbon sequestration · Charcoal addition to
soil · Nutrient leaching · Soil amelioration · Sustainable
landuse

Ron

-----Original Message-----
From: Bruno Glaser [mailto:bruno_glaser@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, October 04, 2002 11:38 AM
To: ronallarson@qwest.net
Subject:

_________________________________________________________________
Senden und empfangen Sie MSN Hotmail über Ihren PocketPC:
http://pocketpc.msn.de

(RWL): Short attachment Word message not shown.

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From psanders at ilstu.edu Mon Oct 7 11:57:09 2002
From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:16 2004
Subject: straw briquettes
In-Reply-To: <003801c26dcc$25d0ebc0$2cdafea9@42v2501>
Message-ID: <1034020467.3da1e673160c6@webmail2.ilstu.edu>

Elk and all,

I am almost finished in Mozambique for this trip, and can report very FAVORABLE
burning of coconut husks (fuzzy stuff) in my Juntos gasifier stoves. I gave 2
demos today to Ministry of Ag (forestry) and to USAID people (about 5 people
each time. I will demo it for 80 people on this Friday.

Therefore I am anxious to get hold of some of the straw briquettes such as what
Elk mentions. SIZE is quite important to assure adequate flow of primary air
through the load of fuel.

Yes, I will be giving a major report to the Stoves list as soon as I get to
good computer support and a little time.

Tom Reed, send me your e-mail address again please.

Paul
--
Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D.
(In Mozambique until early October)

Quoting elk <elk@wananchi.com>:

> I've had some experience with straw briquette 'logs' here. About 10 years ago
> I was processing Nile Perch filleting waste to fishmeal & used compressed
> straw logs as a fuel for clarifying fish oil by-product (to be used as boiler
> fuel).
>
> Though hard and dense- with an attractive glaze to the surface- these logs
> could in no way be compared favourably with wood as a fuel. They expanded
> upon burning and created much smoke, little flame and a lot of ash.
>
> All biomass is not equal when it comes to it's value as fuel.
>
> elk
>
>
> --------------------------
> Elsen L. Karstad
> elk@wananchi.com
> www.chardust.com
> Nairobi Kenya
>
>
>
>

------------------------------------------------------------
Illinois State University Webmail https://webmail2.ilstu.edu

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From psanders at ilstu.edu Mon Oct 7 13:11:27 2002
From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:16 2004
Subject: Stover's stove needed for a community distallation unit
In-Reply-To: <3D9B4E50.DE71BAB8@undp.org>
Message-ID: <1034024920.3da1f7d89d75d@webmail2.ilstu.edu>

Stephen,

Interesting challenge. Be sure I get the additional info that you say you will
be sending. That is very important.

Does anyone know how I could get a few kilos of those leaves in the USA?
Probably not allowed to send to USA. I do not have experience with gasifying
leaves like from regular trees. But 2 to 4 cm pieces of palm tree fronds do a
nice fire via gasification.
Also, I am quite sure that a MIXTURE of leaves plus some bagasse from sugar
cane, and maybe some other "stuff" could be a reasonable fuel.

I will eventually (early Nov.??) get to a reply with info / suggestions for
trying to make a gasifier. Are YOU living there? I will need a "hands-on"
person and a small budget (we will need to consider blowers, and size is a cost
factor. (My largest blower that I use is a standard hair dryer.)

Also, can you find a "tin-smith" or sheet metal worker? Nothing fancy, just
basic cut and bend.

Be cause of my Rotary connections, it might be useful to have a Rotary contact
in the town where the experiment will be done.

While I return to the USA, please send the indicated info.

Paul
--
Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D.
(In Mozambique until early October)

Quoting Stephen Gitonga <stephen.gitonga@undp.org>:

> Hello Stovers
>
> I have been a list member for some time and I have found the
> discussions quite informative. I have an inquiry which I believe will
> make a difference in the lives of a community in Dominica.
>
> A community in Dominica , a small Caribbean Island are making
> essential oils from bay leaves and they have accumulated a substantial
> amount of waste product (leaves which have undergone the distillation
> process).
>
> They use firewood for heating in the distillation equipment. They live
> next to a park and the authorities are no longer allowing them to get
> firewood from the park. They need an alternative. However, just like in
> the sugar industry, they have accumulated a large heap of waste. The
> waste product could be spread in the farms as manure but currently they
> are not using it for anything. It is being heaped together and rotting
> (possibly producing methane which is lost in the environment as one of
> the green house gas that is important for climate change).
>
> The stovers have stove stove technologies , I guess of the right size,
> that can help this community to heat their distillation unit. I think
> the best bet is the stove that could turn the waste leaves into char
> (carbon) at the same time producing pyrolysis gases for heating the
> distillation unit. The stovers list members recently discussed how
> carbon has been used as fertiliser for soils. I believe that the carbon
> in this case, will be powdery, and can be used by the communities for
> spreading in the farms to condition the soil , leading to double
> benefit.
>
> Now the big question to the list members is:
> 1) After removing the essential oils, will the leaves pylolyse easily or
> do you think the removal of the oils have affected the quality of the
> waste as a feed stock for the stove?
> 2) Which particular stove from the list members would you recommend? Can
> it be modified to heat the distillation unit?can it use the
> waste-leaves?
> 3) Is there a list member(s) who live near Dominica who would be of help
> and willing to make a practical contribution and apply his/her charcoal
> making /gasifying stove technology for this important activity?
>
> I am aware that more information is required for example , one needs
> to know the scale of operation of the essential oils activity but I
> have not yet received this from the community. Having worked with
> different communities, I would guess that the scale is relatively
> small and therefore ideal for the kind of stoves that I have seen
> discussed here on the list. Again, going by the fact that the activity
> has been going on sustainably, the scale is big enough to make economic
> sense. They sell the essential oils to the pharmaceutical and the
> cosmetic industries. The information that I have is that there is a big
> heap of waste leaves showing that the scale of operation is optimum for
> a community project.
>
> The benefits that should be achieved are livelihood improvement and
> environmental benefits related to mitigating climate change.
>
> This inquiry ties with the discussions that has been going on over the
> last couple of months including carbon as a medium for sold
> fertilisation, emissions from stoves , charcoal (char) making and
> gasification and might provide an opportunity for the stovers to give a
> real practical solution to a real community problem.
>
> In the meantime, I will seek more details on the scale of the operation,
> temperatures that they need for the distillation, the duration of time
> for each batch etc. from the community members.
>
> Regards
>
> Stephen Gitonga
>

------------------------------------------------------------
Illinois State University Webmail https://webmail2.ilstu.edu

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From snkm at btl.net Mon Oct 7 13:57:49 2002
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:16 2004
Subject: Glaser's papers
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20021007154656.00946100@wgs1.btl.net>

At 08:21 AM 10/7/2002 -1000, Michael J. Antal, Jr. wrote:
>Hi Ron: you have done a great service to the community by obtaining these
>articles so quickly. They are among the most interesting I have read. I
>strongly endorse your proposal to archive them! Michael.
>

Hi Ron and listers;

I second the motion -- and when mounted -- please post the Url!

Northern Belize has huge areas of just ‘Terra Preta’ -- on top of a white
marl base.

This small area was home to the ancient City State of Chetumal -- which had
a population of over 2 million 2000 years ago.

Ruins everywhere.

True ‘Terra Preta’ -- pottery shards and all.

I do not doubt that the charcoal comes from the Milpa agriculture practiced.

I have a small pile of pottery shards from just chopping and raking my
house property here.

I suspect the shards are from burned out refuse piles that are later spread
on the land.

Not all ‘Terra Preta’ has the same amount. If you walk through the cane
fields at the old ruins -- "Adventura" -- you find so very much of shards.

The further off in the bush -- from ruins -- the less shards.

But then -- living here is probably like living on top of New York City --
as in the Planet of the Apes.

Only the large temples remain as evidence -- the rest is just unlimited low
mounds of house floors.

Peter

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From yark at u.washington.edu Mon Oct 7 20:33:22 2002
From: yark at u.washington.edu (Tami Bond)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:16 2004
Subject: rope from biomass
In-Reply-To: <NGBBKDEHILILFNJPHEFIGEGGCCAA.ronallarson@qwest.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.4.44.0210072121130.232488-100000@homer03.u.washington.edu>

I thought the rope idea was neat, but I seem to remember it was a little
smoky. Does anyone at ethos recall that or am I misremembering? After
that, I thought of how it's so easy to twist cables with a drill motor,
and how one might get densification with less energy input by using the
material's strength to work for you, instead of against you as in straight
compression. But the little fibers seemed to expand away from each other
as they burned and make smoky bits. Maybe a light binder would keep it
together and prevent that from happening.

Any of this make sense?

Tami

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From ronallarson at qwest.net Mon Oct 7 20:51:11 2002
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:16 2004
Subject: Forwarding Prof. Matirena on briquette work in Cuba and "binders"
In-Reply-To: <013d01c26e6e$93f54d60$ab000a0a@fc.uclv.edu.cu>
Message-ID: <NGBBKDEHILILFNJPHEFIIEHMCCAA.ronallarson@qwest.net>

Hi Professor Martirena (cc stoves):

I am guessing that you received a "bounce" from "stoves" because I only
received one copy of your message - and so am sending this on to the whole
list (minus some at the end - and with a few comments below). But first I
thank you for this very useful addition to our dialog.

We have used the word "binder" two ways on this list. I meant the way
Andrew Heggie graciously replied in his recent reply (binder being a string
or wire around a "sheaf" of grass or straw") - but I probably misunderstood
him. He probably earlier meant "binder" in the exact manner you have
described below - which is also usually the way we have meant it on this
list (as the added non-biomass material used to hold the biomass together
better in a briquette.) I apologize to all for not picking a better word
(but I can't think of one - anyone got a suggestion?)

Just a few insertions below:

-----Original Message-----
From: Fernando Martirena [mailto:f.martirena@enet.cu]
Sent: Monday, October 07, 2002 7:59 PM
To: ronallarson@qwest.net
Cc: stoves@crest.org; Smail Khennas
Subject: Fw: "binding machines" (or alternatives)

Dear Andrew, dear Ronal:

Smail Kennas from ITDG (Rugby, UK) kindly passed this message exchange on
to me.

I have been developing in Cuba during the last few years a technology for
small scale briquetting, oriented to briquetting agriculture-waste and
basically all kinds of burnable wastes. This project was co-financed by DFID
through the coordination of Intermediate technology Development Group (ITDG)
in UK where Smail Kennas has been my counterpart. GTZ (German Technology
Exchange service) has also co-financed some parts of this project. This is
also one of the leading projects coordinated by the network ECOSUR
(www.ecosur.org )

(RWL): This is a new (to me) and very interesting site. ("sur" meaning
"south" here) I will go back and look more closely. You are in some good
company with your many partners here.

We have achieved very interesting, and often exciting results. Our aim was
to find an alternative to the usually costly extruder machine used to pack
biomass to use it as a fuel. Because of the high pressure exerted, this type
of press presses the biomass without a binder. The result is a very dense
briquette, with good firing properties, however produced at a very high
cost. Maintenance costs are specially high for because of excessive wearing
during operation.

Our approach was to develop a simpler technology, whereas we could produce a
less dense briquette with a therefore simpler -and cheaper!- machine. Our
first choice was the world wide known CINVA-RAM machine used to produce the
Compressed Earth Blocks (CEB). This is a hand operated machine that exerts a
pressure of around 30-70 kg/cm2 (3-7 MPa). This proved not to be practical,
and we decided to design and operate our own machines, based on the very
same principles, that is, a lever that applies a compressive force through a
piston that presses the biomass into a briquette shaped like an ordinary 6
cm x 13 cm x 24 cm brick.

(RWL): There was a relatively high power (maybe 20 - 50 hp? or kW?) brick
making machine at the WSSD - making very strong unfired bricks for a
"Habitat" house. I asked about the manual (CINVA-RAM) apparatus you
describe and was told that they sometimes do use that in remote locations
(of course not needed or as cheap in Jo'burg). Their bricks were of an
interesting doubly-interlocking design for better wall strength - presumably
something we stovers never need. I also asked them about making lightweight
insulating "bricks" for stoves - but I never got to the right person. You
are working with a very nice technology.)

For this very low pressing pressure a binder is used. We read all about
different experiences throughout the world -kindly provided by Andy Roussel
from IT Consultants (arconsult@cwcom.net) - and found out that in our case
ordinary clay was the best choice. We have done ever since a detailed study
that included clay/binder proportioning, calorific value and burning
properties of the product, by us called "Solid Fuel Block" (Bloque Solido
Combustible in spanisch). If requested, some of the results of this
investigation are available in PDF format.

(RWL): Yes, if you will send this to myself and to "Tom Miles"
[tmiles@trmiles.com}, we (mostly Tom) will figure out the best place to
archive what sounds very interesting.

As a result we have obtained a product which looks like an ordinary fired
clay brick, burns very quickly, with a calorific value of around 13-15 MJ/kg
(similar to wet firewood), a density (dried) around 300 kg/m3. We managed
with the support of DFID, GTZ, the ECOSUR network and local partners to set
a pilot workshop into operation since February 2002. The second workshop
will soon be set into operation, after the successful start of the first
one. The product is being sold to local brick manufacturers, quicklime
manufacturers (where it can replace some of the firewood used to burn lime)
and -most of all- to collective kitchens, bakeries, restaurants whose
cooking facilities are dependant from firewood. I could send you some
pictures if requested.

(RWL): Yes please send as above. We try to avoid sending long messages
(PDF and photos) as so many "stoves" people have to pay for time used.

As I said before, we have been working in this subject during the last few
years, and we have accumulated some experience. If this is interesting to
any of you, just let us know. Our technology is almost ready to be
disseminated throughout other areas of thr world, provided there are the
required financial means.

Ok, hope not to have bored you with my message.

(RWL): Absolutely not. If you have any experience with "holey"
briquettes, I think this list would also enjoy those comments. I look
forward to seeing the greater detail and the photos. Thanks to Smail for
passing on your/our mutual interests. To subscribe (free) to "stoves", use:
List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>

Good to receive your message - and look forward to more. Ron

Sincerely

fernando
____________________________
José Fernando Martirena Hernández (Prof. PhD Ing.)
CIDEM Facultad de Construcciones/Faculty of Constructions
Universidad Central de las Villas/Central University of Las Villas
Carretera de Camajuani km 5, Santa Clara 408000, Villa Clara. CUBA
tel/fax: ++53 42 281539 (oficina/office)
tel/fax: ++53 42 203065 (casa/home)
e-mail: F.Martirena@enet.cu
website: www.ecosur.org

----- Original Message -----
From: "Smail Khennas" <smailk@itdg.org.uk>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: AJH [mailto:andrew.heggie@dtn.ntl.com]
> Sent: 06 October 2002 23:59
> To: stoves@crest.org
> Subject: Re: Reply to Andrew on "binding machines" (or alternatives)
>
>
> On Sun, 6 Oct 2002 10:35:29 -0600, "Ron Larson"
> <ronallarson@qwest.net> wrote:
>
> >Hi Andrew (cc stoves:

<snip>

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From elk at wananchi.com Mon Oct 7 22:48:10 2002
From: elk at wananchi.com (elk)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:16 2004
Subject: straw briquettes
In-Reply-To: <003801c26dcc$25d0ebc0$2cdafea9@42v2501>
Message-ID: <000101c26e96$525ef5e0$a540083e@42v2501>

Hello Paul;

The straw briquettes are no longer being produced here in Kenya. The Danish
compaction equipment lies idle- pity that. It represents a pretty large
investment. The person who set up the plant died some years ago shortly
after the factory was commissioned and the family tried to carry on with the
work but couldn't crack the marketing problems.

I look forward to your report!

rgds;
elk

--------------------------
Elsen L. Karstad
elk@wananchi.com
www.chardust.com
Nairobi Kenya

----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul S. Anderson" <psanders@ilstu.edu>
To: "elk" <elk@wananchi.com>
Cc: <stoves@crest.org>
Sent: Monday, October 07, 2002 4:54 PM
Subject: Re: straw briquettes

> Elk and all,
>
> I am almost finished in Mozambique for this trip, and can report very
FAVORABLE
> burning of coconut husks (fuzzy stuff) in my Juntos gasifier stoves. I
gave 2
> demos today to Ministry of Ag (forestry) and to USAID people (about 5
people
> each time. I will demo it for 80 people on this Friday.
>
> Therefore I am anxious to get hold of some of the straw briquettes such as
what
> Elk mentions. SIZE is quite important to assure adequate flow of primary
air
> through the load of fuel.
>
> Yes, I will be giving a major report to the Stoves list as soon as I get
to
> good computer support and a little time.
>
> Tom Reed, send me your e-mail address again please.
>
> Paul
> --
> Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D.
> (In Mozambique until early October)
>
>
> Quoting elk <elk@wananchi.com>:
>
> > I've had some experience with straw briquette 'logs' here. About 10
years ago
> > I was processing Nile Perch filleting waste to fishmeal & used
compressed
> > straw logs as a fuel for clarifying fish oil by-product (to be used as
boiler
> > fuel).
> >
> > Though hard and dense- with an attractive glaze to the surface- these
logs
> > could in no way be compared favourably with wood as a fuel. They
expanded
> > upon burning and created much smoke, little flame and a lot of ash.
> >
> > All biomass is not equal when it comes to it's value as fuel.
> >
> > elk
> >
> >
> > --------------------------
> > Elsen L. Karstad
> > elk@wananchi.com
> > www.chardust.com
> > Nairobi Kenya
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> Illinois State University Webmail https://webmail2.ilstu.edu
>
>

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From crispin at newdawn.sz Tue Oct 8 07:32:23 2002
From: crispin at newdawn.sz (Crispin)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:16 2004
Subject: You MUST see this
Message-ID: <006301c26ee1$5d6b3840$2a47fea9@md>

Dear Stovers

Just for the entertainment value.

This is the ACTUAL homepage of the Bombay Police Force, a city of a zillion
people and one of the most important industrial bases in south-east
asia....turn up your sound cards.... http://www.mumbaipolice.com/

Identify that tune.

Regards
Crispin

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From capjan at vol.cz Tue Oct 8 08:11:59 2002
From: capjan at vol.cz (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jan_C=E1p?=)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:16 2004
Subject: Wood-gas as biofuel for famous "AGA Cooker"
In-Reply-To: <003801c26dcc$25d0ebc0$2cdafea9@42v2501>
Message-ID: <005e01c26ee5$02658910$2a84fac3@krtek>

Dear stovers,

if I see schema of traditional AGA Cooker (e.g. on www.aga-rayburn.com or
photos on www.agacentral.com/agayours1.html page), it occurred to me that
ideal renewable source of heat for AGA may be a simple wood-gas burner from
china (see attachment China.gif - cover of second combustion chamber -
element number 3 as first hot plate of AGA cooker).

I enjoy yours suggestions about this idea.

John

China.gif

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From ronallarson at qwest.net Tue Oct 8 12:02:05 2002
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:16 2004
Subject: Forwarding Prof. Matirena on briquette work in Cuba and "binders"
In-Reply-To: <011001c26ecf$2ec8c370$ab000a0a@fc.uclv.edu.cu>
Message-ID: <NGBBKDEHILILFNJPHEFIGEIGCCAA.ronallarson@qwest.net>

Fernando:

As before I am forwarding this to "stoves" - as you must be a member to
submit - and I only received this one copy.

To keep the message short, I am taking the liberty of "cropping" (another
funny double-meaning word)- and then adding a few more comments to yours
after having received your nice power point message (the one Tom will post):

-----Original Message-----
From: Fernando Martirena [mailto:f.martirena@enet.cu]
Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2002 7:31 AM
To: Ron Larson; stoves@crest.org
Cc: Smail Khennas; arconsult@cwcom.net; Kurt Rhyner Pozak
Subject: Re: Forwarding Prof. Matirena on briquette work in Cuba and
"binders"

Hi Ron!

Thanks for your prompt reply to my message. I am very glad that the comments
were of interest to you, and also thank you for forwarding this to the list.

I have already sent to you some material referring to the work that we have
done in the subject "biomass briquetting". If you are interested in further
(deeper) technical information, just let me know.

(RWL): Yes please send anything additional you have. You are right on
target for many "stoves" list members. On the excellent power point
material you have already sent (and which Tom Miles has said he will post
after returning from Bangkok)- I have these additional questions:)

(RWL1): On your slide 6 - you have used the term "pozzolanic" and shown a
graph of "poszzolanic activity index" (up to 80 units) vs pozzolanic
content(fractions of a gram). I do not recall ever seeing this term on our
list (or even heard it). My dictionary equates this to volcanic ashes -
used in the manufacture of hydraulic cement. Are you in someway capturing
the ash content from the bricks you produce and then using this in the
cement industry - or is this a way only of describing the nature of the ash
content of your brick? If the latter, can you describe what is good or bad
about the various samples you show for bagasse, rice husks, etc?

(RWL2): You show prices or costs like .09 and .13 for one brick. Are
these Euros?

(RWL3): This looks like a brick that would be pretty hard to ignite -
because of its quite large size. Have you ever considered using holes in
the brick to assist in ignition? Could you describe your ignition process.
How about cylindrical rather than brick forms?

(RWL4) You show (p9) one graph of O2 content from 19 to 20% - which I
would consider a high excess air ratio (as a function of air temperatures
from 100 to 140 C - which I consider low). Could you describe something
more of both the stove/apparatus in which this data was taken - and the
measurement apparatus used? (we have had much recent discussion about
measurement equipment)

fernando said in closing his new introduction (and inserts on two more
messages also follow):

"Please have a look at my insertions below

greetings, fernando"

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Larson" <ronallarson@qwest.net>
To: "Fernando Martirena" <f.martirena@enet.cu>; <stoves@crest.org>
Cc: "Smail Khennas" <Smailk@ITDG.org.uk>; <arconsult@cwcom.net>
Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2002 12:52 AM
Subject: Forwarding Prof. Matirena on briquette work in Cuba and "binders"

> Hi Professor Martirena (cc stoves):
>
> I am guessing that you received a "bounce" from "stoves" because I only
> received one copy of your message - and so am sending this on to the whole
> list (minus some at the end - and with a few comments below). But first I
> thank you for this very useful addition to our dialog.

I'm very happy about that as I said before

> We have used the word "binder" two ways on this list. I meant the way
> Andrew Heggie graciously replied in his recent reply (binder being a
string
> or wire around a "sheaf" of grass or straw") - but I probably
misunderstood
> him. He probably earlier meant "binder" in the exact manner you have
> described below - which is also usually the way we have meant it on this
> list (as the added non-biomass material used to hold the biomass together
> better in a briquette.) I apologize to all for not picking a better word
> (but I can't think of one - anyone got a suggestion?)

It's sometimes funny the winding ways to which language can lead us... I
think, however that you picked the right word for what you wanted to
describe.

>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Fernando Martirena [mailto:f.martirena@enet.cu]
> Sent: Monday, October 07, 2002 7:59 PM
> To: ronallarson@qwest.net
> Cc: stoves@crest.org; Smail Khennas
> Subject: Fw: "binding machines" (or alternatives)
>
>
> Dear Andrew, dear Ronal:
>
<snip>

(RWL5): You said this time after my comment about "ECOSUR":

"ECOSUR/ECOSOUTH is an international network led by the NGO "Grupo
Sofonias",
who has been over 20 years working on development projects. It gathers
organizations througout Latin America and Africa, and its main aim is the
dissemination of information about building technologies and related
subjects, like in this case stoves and fuel alternatives. Thay have an
interesting stoves project in Ecuador. For further information you can
contact Prof. Kurt Rhyner, President of grupo Sofonias and Chairman of the
network."

(RWL6): Like yours, this message is also going to Professor Rhyner - so I
hope he can also tell us more about Grupo Sofonias. You said after my
comment on seeing a brick manufacturer at WSSD:

"Yes, we are simply using the existing stock of technology to manufacture
another very different product: a solid fuel block. Sawdust has given us one
of our best results, although there are other interesting sources of waste
biomass, such as sugar cane straw and bagasse, banana leaves, coffee husks,
etc. The disadvantage of the latter is that they should be shredded in order
to make them suitable for compaction. This means extra costs and some waste
of time."

(RWL7): See my first remarks about other shapes. You then said that you
had sent other material - which this list knows from a reply message from
Tom Miles. Then you said after my concluding comment:
"Thanks for your attention, and look forward to keeping in contact"

fernando

RWL: We look forward to anything more you can tell us about your own work
in Cuba - which I have only begun to describe. Others who are interested in
this can do one of three things: a) write you, b) write me, or c) wait for
Tom Miles to place on our archives. Those on this list with a special
interest in briquettes include Richard Stanley, Elsen Karstad, AD Karve,
Crispin P-P, Paul Anderson, and a few others - so I hope they will
especially comment on the various topics that they will not yet have been
able to see.

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>http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Chambers/Chambers.htm

From crispin at newdawn.sz Wed Oct 9 01:12:26 2002
From: crispin at newdawn.sz (Crispin)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:16 2004
Subject: Mathematics in India
Message-ID: <000001c26f75$82dbe0e0$2a47fea9@md>

Dear Stovers

Seeing as we have several people on the group who are in India, I think we
should contractulate at least one of them for an Indian winning the IgNobel
Prize for Mathematics this year:

MATHEMATICS
K.P. Sreekumar and the late G. Nirmalan of Kerala Agricultural University,
India, for their analytical report "Estimation of the Total Surface Area in
Indian Elephants." [REFERENCE: "Estimation of the Total Surface Area in
Indian Elephants (Elephas maximus indicus)," K.P. Sreekumar and G. Nirmalan,
Veterinary Research Communications, vol. 14, no. 1, 1990, pp. 5-17.]

And you thought it couldn't be done!

Crispin

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From f.martirena at enet.cu Wed Oct 9 14:20:46 2002
From: f.martirena at enet.cu (Fernando Martirena)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:16 2004
Subject: Forwarding Prof. Matirena on briquette work in Cuba and "binders"
In-Reply-To: <NGBBKDEHILILFNJPHEFIGEIGCCAA.ronallarson@qwest.net>
Message-ID: <012b01c26fe1$17c22780$ab000a0a@fc.uclv.edu.cu>

Dear Ron!

Thanks for your interesting comments. I'm already in the list so I'm posting
this message directly on it.

As to your interesting points:

> (RWL1): On your slide 6 - you have used the term "pozzolanic" and shown a
> graph of "poszzolanic activity index" (up to 80 units) vs pozzolanic
> content (fractions of a gram). I do not recall ever seeing this term on
our
> list (or even heard it). My dictionary equates this to volcanic ashes -
> used in the manufacture of hydraulic cement. Are you in someway capturing
> the ash content from the bricks you produce and then using this in the
> cement industry - or is this a way only of describing the nature of the
ash
> content of your brick? If the latter, can you describe what is good or
bad
> about the various samples you show for bagasse, rice husks, etc?

I have been working with pozzolanic binders made out of agri-industrial
wastes since 1992. We have developed an appropriate technology for the
manufacture of a lime-pozzolana binder at a very small scale (for further
details see www.ecosur.org ). The results of this work are already
disseminated in Cuba and many countries in Central America. The research
work can be divided into three main parts:

1. Use of non-treated pozzolanic ashes (1992-1995): we simply picked the
sugar cane (or rice husk) ashes burnt in the boiler or directly on the open
air and used them as source of pozzolana. The pozzolana is a mineral rich in
alumina and silica that combined with lime in a moist environment when
finely ground reacts as a hydraulic binder similar to Portland cement
although with lower strength. The main problem associated to non-treated ash
for the high temperature to which they were subjected (over 900 Celsius)
which led to a crystalline structure most likely non-reactive.

2. Use of treated pozzolanic ash (1995-1998): we picked the biomass before
it was burnt and burnt it in special incinerators at controlled temperature
and residence time with the aim of improving the reactivity of the ash. This
really gave a very reactive pozzolana, however the ash output of the
incinerator was not as high as expected, and the whole industrial process
was not energy efficient at all, since the low burning temperature at the
incinerator did not allow heat recovery facilities, and thus most of the
combustion heat had to be released to the atmosphere.

3. Use of what we name after "enhanced pozzolana" (1998-2002): bearing in
mind the need to have a more efficient process, we explored the possibility
to raise the burning temperature of the biomass. This gave birth to the
concept of the "Solid Fuel Block", whereas burnable biomass and clay are
mixed together and pressed. The fuel can be burnt at higher temperatures,
thus allowing improved energy efficiency. The block was composed of
approximately 20% clay and 80% biomass, with 10% moisture. The clay gets
thermally activated at temperatures between 800-1000 Celsius, thus becoming
a very reactive pozzolana. The clay has low ignition losses (IL) and thus
remains almost intact after burning, although more reactive. The biomass,
however, burns completely, and only approximately 10% of the initial weight
remains as ash that is very non-reactive because of the high burning
temperatures. The resulting SFB ash has then approximately 80% activated
clay and 20% non-reactive biomass ash. It has proven to be a super pozzolana

The stage 3 prolonged itself into a separate study for the development of
fuel, basically linked to the manufacture of building materials with
appropriate technologies. This means -as you hinted- that the brick or lime
producer can capture his ash and sell it to the cement manufacturer, who
will then receive a very reactive (and cheap) raw material.

The Solid Fuel Block itself is a technology for the processing of wastes
into a useful fuel, and therefore can be used alone, for instance, for
cooking facilities, for bakeries, etc. At the moment our workshop is tapping
a great demand from restaurants and hospitals, whose cooking facilities are
prepared only to burn the scarce firewood. We are not, however, sure that
the SFB ashes resulting from using the fuel for cooking -because of the
relatively low temperatures- could be as reactive as the one resulting from
lime or fire clay bricks manufacture.

(RWL2): You show prices or costs like .09 and .13 for one brick. Are
> these Euros?

These are Cuban pesos (CUP). One CUP equals to $27 USD. However I would not
recommend extrapolating these figures to other countries, since the Cuban
economy has very special aspects, which you do not find in other countries.

> (RWL3): Have you ever considered using holes in
> the brick to assist in ignition? Could you describe your ignition
process.

Yes we have. At the beginning we used the CINVA RAM press, which presses
blocks with holes inside, however it did not work as expected, basically
because the device to insert the holes puts a limit to the piston moving
downwards, and ofeten this prevents us from achieving the needed pressure,
which results in a less dense and thus bad brick.

(RWL3):This looks like a brick that would be pretty hard to ignite -
> because of its quite large size.

We thought the same at the beginning, but we had no choice since the only
press available had only this kind of brick mold. Also we were concerned
about the high clay content of our briquette, which could likely turn up in
more smoke emission at burning. The first tests cleared our doubts: the
bricks burnt very well, they just burst into flames, and made less smoke in
comparison with the firewood currently used. The block burnt longer than
pieces of firewood of similar size, and the heat produced was more
consistent. We videotaped everything, made interviews with the workers at
the local kitchen where it was tested and they all preferred the SFB against
the firewood.

>How about cylindrical rather than brick forms?

We are exploring new and more productive presses, where we are also thinking
of cylindrical forms. In two months we will have our first prototype of the
new press in operation.

(RWL4) You show (p9) one graph of O2 content from 19 to 20% - which I
> would consider a high excess air ratio (as a function of air temperatures
> from 100 to 140 C - which I consider low). Could you describe something
> more of both the stove/apparatus in which this data was taken - and the
> measurement apparatus used? (we have had much recent discussion about
> measurement equipment)

Yes, indeed, the O2 content shows a high excess air ratio. This is because
of the stove where it was tested, a very rudimentary one, whose burning
chamber is not properly sealed and therefore there was no way to control
airflow.

The test was contracted to a R&D center in our University. They used the
following equipment:

- Exhaust gas analyzer ORSAT: it allows the simultaneous análisis of oxygen,
carbon dioxide and monoxide

- Exhaust gas analyzer RBR - ECOM - SG PLUS: it allows the simultaneous
análisis of oxygen, carbon dioxide and monoxide; nitric oxides, sulfur
dioxide, room temperature and gas temperature, and combustion efficiency.

- Digital thermometer Kane Maye to measure gas temperature separately.

RWL: We look forward to anything more you can tell us about your own work
> in Cuba - which I have only begun to describe. Others who are interested
in
> this can do one of three things: a) write you, b) write me, or c) wait
for
> Tom Miles to place on our archives. Those on this list with a special
> interest in briquettes include Richard Stanley, Elsen Karstad, AD Karve,
> Crispin P-P, Paul Anderson, and a few others - so I hope they will
> especially comment on the various topics that they will not yet have been
> able to see.

Thanks a lot for the reception to my explanation. I am happy to see that our
work has raised interest among all of you and look forward to keeping in
touch. I'm already on the "stoves" list, so I'll keep being posted.

Saludos, Fernando

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Larson" <ronallarson@qwest.net>
To: "Fernando Martirena" <f.martirena@enet.cu>; <stoves@crest.org>
Cc: "Smail Khennas" <Smailk@ITDG.org.uk>; <arconsult@cwcom.net>; "Kurt
Rhyner Pozak" <sofonias@compuserve.com>; "Tom Miles" <tmiles@trmiles.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2002 4:03 PM
Subject: RE: Forwarding Prof. Matirena on briquette work in Cuba and
"binders"

> Fernando:
>
> As before I am forwarding this to "stoves" - as you must be a member to
> submit - and I only received this one copy.
>
> To keep the message short, I am taking the liberty of "cropping" (another
> funny double-meaning word)- and then adding a few more comments to yours
> after having received your nice power point message (the one Tom will
post):
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Fernando Martirena [mailto:f.martirena@enet.cu]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2002 7:31 AM
> To: Ron Larson; stoves@crest.org
> Cc: Smail Khennas; arconsult@cwcom.net; Kurt Rhyner Pozak
> Subject: Re: Forwarding Prof. Matirena on briquette work in Cuba and
> "binders"
>
>
> Hi Ron!
>
> Thanks for your prompt reply to my message. I am very glad that the
comments
> were of interest to you, and also thank you for forwarding this to the
list.
>
> I have already sent to you some material referring to the work that we
have
> done in the subject "biomass briquetting". If you are interested in
further
> (deeper) technical information, just let me know.
>
> (RWL): Yes please send anything additional you have. You are right on
> target for many "stoves" list members. On the excellent power point
> material you have already sent (and which Tom Miles has said he will post
> after returning from Bangkok)- I have these additional questions:)
>
> (RWL1): On your slide 6 - you have used the term "pozzolanic" and shown a
> graph of "poszzolanic activity index" (up to 80 units) vs pozzolanic
> content(fractions of a gram). I do not recall ever seeing this term on
our
> list (or even heard it). My dictionary equates this to volcanic ashes -
> used in the manufacture of hydraulic cement. Are you in someway capturing
> the ash content from the bricks you produce and then using this in the
> cement industry - or is this a way only of describing the nature of the
ash
> content of your brick? If the latter, can you describe what is good or
bad
> about the various samples you show for bagasse, rice husks, etc?
>
> (RWL2): You show prices or costs like .09 and .13 for one brick. Are
> these Euros?
>
> (RWL3): This looks like a brick that would be pretty hard to ignite -
> because of its quite large size. Have you ever considered using holes in
> the brick to assist in ignition? Could you describe your ignition
process.
> How about cylindrical rather than brick forms?
>
> (RWL4) You show (p9) one graph of O2 content from 19 to 20% - which I
> would consider a high excess air ratio (as a function of air temperatures
> from 100 to 140 C - which I consider low). Could you describe something
> more of both the stove/apparatus in which this data was taken - and the
> measurement apparatus used? (we have had much recent discussion about
> measurement equipment)
>
> fernando said in closing his new introduction (and inserts on two more
> messages also follow):
>
> "Please have a look at my insertions below
>
> greetings, fernando"
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ron Larson" <ronallarson@qwest.net>
> To: "Fernando Martirena" <f.martirena@enet.cu>; <stoves@crest.org>
> Cc: "Smail Khennas" <Smailk@ITDG.org.uk>; <arconsult@cwcom.net>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2002 12:52 AM
> Subject: Forwarding Prof. Matirena on briquette work in Cuba and "binders"
>
>
> > Hi Professor Martirena (cc stoves):
> >
> > I am guessing that you received a "bounce" from "stoves" because I only
> > received one copy of your message - and so am sending this on to the
whole
> > list (minus some at the end - and with a few comments below). But first
I
> > thank you for this very useful addition to our dialog.
>
> I'm very happy about that as I said before
>
> > We have used the word "binder" two ways on this list. I meant the way
> > Andrew Heggie graciously replied in his recent reply (binder being a
> string
> > or wire around a "sheaf" of grass or straw") - but I probably
> misunderstood
> > him. He probably earlier meant "binder" in the exact manner you have
> > described below - which is also usually the way we have meant it on this
> > list (as the added non-biomass material used to hold the biomass
together
> > better in a briquette.) I apologize to all for not picking a better
word
> > (but I can't think of one - anyone got a suggestion?)
>
> It's sometimes funny the winding ways to which language can lead us... I
> think, however that you picked the right word for what you wanted to
> describe.
>
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Fernando Martirena [mailto:f.martirena@enet.cu]
> > Sent: Monday, October 07, 2002 7:59 PM
> > To: ronallarson@qwest.net
> > Cc: stoves@crest.org; Smail Khennas
> > Subject: Fw: "binding machines" (or alternatives)
> >
> >
> > Dear Andrew, dear Ronal:
> >
> <snip>
>
> (RWL5): You said this time after my comment about "ECOSUR":
>
> "ECOSUR/ECOSOUTH is an international network led by the NGO "Grupo
> Sofonias",
> who has been over 20 years working on development projects. It gathers
> organizations througout Latin America and Africa, and its main aim is the
> dissemination of information about building technologies and related
> subjects, like in this case stoves and fuel alternatives. Thay have an
> interesting stoves project in Ecuador. For further information you can
> contact Prof. Kurt Rhyner, President of grupo Sofonias and Chairman of the
> network."
>
> (RWL6): Like yours, this message is also going to Professor Rhyner - so I
> hope he can also tell us more about Grupo Sofonias. You said after my
> comment on seeing a brick manufacturer at WSSD:
>
> "Yes, we are simply using the existing stock of technology to manufacture
> another very different product: a solid fuel block. Sawdust has given us
one
> of our best results, although there are other interesting sources of waste
> biomass, such as sugar cane straw and bagasse, banana leaves, coffee
husks,
> etc. The disadvantage of the latter is that they should be shredded in
order
> to make them suitable for compaction. This means extra costs and some
waste
> of time."
>
> (RWL7): See my first remarks about other shapes. You then said that you
> had sent other material - which this list knows from a reply message from
> Tom Miles. Then you said after my concluding comment:
> "Thanks for your attention, and look forward to keeping in contact"
>
> fernando
>
> RWL: We look forward to anything more you can tell us about your own work
> in Cuba - which I have only begun to describe. Others who are interested
in
> this can do one of three things: a) write you, b) write me, or c) wait
for
> Tom Miles to place on our archives. Those on this list with a special
> interest in briquettes include Richard Stanley, Elsen Karstad, AD Karve,
> Crispin P-P, Paul Anderson, and a few others - so I hope they will
> especially comment on the various topics that they will not yet have been
> able to see.
>

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List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
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List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>
>
For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
>http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Chambers/Chambers.htm

From rstanley at legacyfound.org Wed Oct 9 22:45:16 2002
From: rstanley at legacyfound.org (Richard Stanley)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:16 2004
Subject: Forwarding Prof. Matirena on briquette work in Cuba and "binders"
In-Reply-To: <NGBBKDEHILILFNJPHEFIGEIGCCAA.ronallarson@qwest.net>
Message-ID: <3DA5B80A.14D36E1E@legacyfound.org>

Estimado Sr. Martirena ,
Thanks for sharing your experience and thanks to Ron for having enticed
your participation.
I would like to offer our experience in two topics you mentioned, the
cinva ram mold problem and the processing of biomass.
The mold problem:
While in Tanzania 1974 - '81, managing an AT project, we revised the
cinva ram for replication within the local resource base, and started a
successful local industry manufacturing a local version of it in fact to
this day.
We too faced the issue of devising a means of providing holes while
assuring a compact block. One fine day, while sitting (actually squatting)
on the tiolet, I realised the solution handing onthe wall, in the form
of a tiolet paper holder. This gadget was an overlapping sleeve of two
metal tubes held apart by a simple compression spring. Bolting two
sets of these compressable tubes onto a simple base plate insert for the
"Machini ya Udongo ya Saruji" ,as it was known, effectively
formed two vertical plugs which allowed the piston to travel into
the mold without loosing the required hole shape in the resulting block.
The only problem was what it did for public relations with now reduced
toilet facilities but during those early days of Ujamaa, that mattered
less than improved housing ...Whether or not the tube plug insert is in
use I do not know but it worked well during our initial tests.
On the issue of processing biomass...
We began or forray into biomass in 1994, Malawi East /Central Africa.
The early attempt used the conventional process: a relatively dry biomass
(?10%moisture) and high pressure machinery with the consequent frustration
of maintenance, energy costs and short shelf life of the resulting product
in the ambient humidity of the rainy season. Thanks to mentor Ben Bryant
,ret. Univ of Washingon/ College of Forest Resources, we resorted to a
wet low pressure process. Binding in this process, relies upon dissociation
of fibers from the biomass, to both interlock with each other and/or to
encapsulate other more granular and pithy biomass material such as rice
husks sawdust charcoal fines etc etc., when compacted / dewatered. To ensure
ease of loading the mold and good blending of fibers, we operate
basically in slurried water bath of 10-15% non woody biomass solids. When
these materials are sized, decomposed to the right stage and blended in
the correct proportions will yield dry briquette densities on the
order of 225 Kg / M3 using a hand operated compound lever press
which operates at 12 - 15 kg/cm2.
Our principle aim in this project, has been to extend the technology
to micro-entprepreneurs in the "developing nations" as a product which
they then produce and sell as a firewood substitute in their local
markets. As the effort rolls on however, there arises the need
for more institutional and small business applications which both tolerate
and demand higher volume mechanised equipment. We are, albeit with limited
resources, incorporating the same water slurry process in high speed mechanism
which chops,mashes, blends and then compresses and de-waters the material,
all in one oil drum-sized housing. (Its actually a bit smaller than that
but the irony of using an oil drum for comparison is hard to pass up).
Although I have never thought of it, it seem to me that this same mechanism
could well incorporate your mentioned clays in the production of a fire
block with residual ash for onward use in the cement industry. In fact
the incorporation clays to the water slurry process would insure good mixing
and blending of such material.
Saludos y, hablar'iamos !
Richard Stanley
www.legacyfound.org
Kampala Uganda
265 41 346 140

From das at eagle-access.net Thu Oct 10 00:07:43 2002
From: das at eagle-access.net (Das)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:16 2004
Subject: open fires can be great!
Message-ID: <200210100819.g9A8JKR06099@saturn.eagle-access.net>

I just did two rough tests on a stove loaned to me by Tom Reed. I boiled 2
cups of water in 5 minutes using 2.5 ounces wood chips in one run and 1.25
ounces of sawdust pellets in the second run. The charcoal remaining at the
end of pyrolysis was 1 ounce poured into a closed container to cool. This
is a net gain in charcoal available to be put to its best use (charcoal to
sell, to use, or to add to the soil).

A. Das
Original Sources/Biomass Energy Foundation
Box 7137, Boulder, CO 80306
das@eagle-access.net

----------
> From: Harmon Seaver <hseaver@cybershamanix.com>
> To: Dean Still <dstill@epud.net>
> Cc: Peter Singfield <snkm@btl.net>; stoves@crest.org
> Subject: Re: open fires can be great!
> Date: Thursday, October 03, 2002 11:42 PM
>
> I think Peter needs to build himself a little Reed/Larson IDD stove
out of
> tin cans and see for himself what a mind blowing experience it is to
watch such
> a tiny amount of wood burn so hot for 30-45 minutes. That handful of
twigs or
> wood pellets would be only the kindling to get an open fire burning.
> Admittedly, I didn't grow up in a village where they cooked over open
fires
> for thousands of years, but I have done an awful lot of cooking on
woodstoves,
> and also periodically on open fires when camping, and frankly I don't
even much
> care for sitting around an open fire when camping, let alone cook on one.
But
> both my wife and I would much rather have a wood cookstove than a gas or
> electric one, and now that I know how to build a really efficient small
> (IDD) stove, even just making a quick cup of tea wouldn't be much of a
hassle.
>
> --
> Harmon Seaver
> CyberShamanix
> http://www.cybershamanix.com
>
> -
> Stoves List Archives and Website:
> http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200209/
> http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
> >
> Stoves List Moderators:
> Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
> Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
>
> Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon
>
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>
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From das at eagle-access.net Thu Oct 10 00:09:00 2002
From: das at eagle-access.net (Das)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:16 2004
Subject: salt in the lamp
Message-ID: <200210100819.g9A8JHR06094@saturn.eagle-access.net>

Yes the lovely Aladdin lamp. A love hate relationship for the remotely
civilized. I enjoyed the elegance of a bright light without electricity,
but all the parts of the Aladdin were specialized and expensive and parts
hard to find. I resolved to come up with something simpler and less exotic.

I have succeeded in making a wood sawdust fueled mantle lamp gasifier using
an ordinary coleman mantle. It puts out the light of 60 to 100 watt light
bulb. Would anyone have a use for sugh a device?

A. Das Original Sources/Biomass Energy Foundation
Box 7137, Boulder, CO 80306 USA
das@eagle-access.net
303-237-3579
----------
> From: Harmon Seaver <hseaver@cybershamanix.com>
> To: A.D. Karve <adkarve@pn2.vsnl.net.in>
> Cc: stoves@crest.org
> Subject: Re: salt in the lamp
> Date: Thursday, October 03, 2002 9:37 PM
>
> I recall many years ago trying the salt trick on our Aladdin mantle
lamps (we
> lived for about 18 years with no electricity or running water and with
only wood
> for heating and cooking) and it does indeed work to remove the carbon.
However,
> it also rapidly corrodes the metal burner parts. It was always a sort of
> love/hate thing with the Aladdins - such a nice bright light but such a
hassle!
> When our children were small they would sometimes come home from
school
> (they had to walk or ski 2 miles through the forest from the road where
the
> school bus left them off) in the Winter before we did, and we allowed
them to
> light the regular wick lamps as it got dark quite early, but not the
Aladdins,
> since they are so hard to regulate and must be carefully watched.
> This is the second time today I was reminded of those times -- I was
fixing
> a drain today on the kitchen sink and things weren't going well. My wife
said,
> "Why don't you just stick the pipe out through the wall and let it run on
the
> ground like we used to? And then when it froze up you could run out and
pound it
> with a hammer to break up the ice." 8-)
> How I wish we could return to that life.
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 03, 2002 at 09:44:07PM +0530, A.D. Karve wrote:
> > Das mentioned using salt in a mantle lamp. I report an unsuccessful
experiment aimed at increasing the light output of a kerosene wick lamp and
a candle. Everybody who has learned chemistry in his school would remember
how a platinum wire dipped in salt solution and held in a gas flame turned
the flame from almost invisible blue to bright yellow. I thought that the
addition of a sodium compound to the kerosene would increase the lux output
of the lamp. (Lux is a psychlolgical measure of the light intensity, based
on the sensitivity of the human eye. The scientific measure is photon flux
or some such parameter). Ordinary salt was tried, but it did not dissolve
in kerosene. Soap was also tried, but that too did not dissolve
satisfactorily in kerosene. I then melted wax and soap together and made a
candle out of it, but it too failed to give a bright yellow flame. It is
likely that one needs higher temperature of the flame of a Bunsen gas
burner to make sodium shine! Or perhaps the soap was made of synthet>
> For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
>
>http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Chambers/Chambers.htm

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From smailk at itdg.org.uk Thu Oct 10 00:27:20 2002
From: smailk at itdg.org.uk (Smail Khennas)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:17 2004
Subject: Forwarding Prof. Matirena on briquette work in Cuba and "binders"
Message-ID: <02E01CE12537D5118F2B0002A550DDC7185EBE@ITDG-MAIL>

Dear all
Slight correction due to a typing mistake in the figures given by Fernando
one US$ = 27 CUP (cuban pesos) and not the other way. Fernando may confirm
and explain the sublities of exchange rates in Cuba

Smail
-----Original Message-----
From: Fernando Martirena [mailto:f.martirena@enet.cu]
Sent: 09 October 2002 23:11
To: Ron Larson; stoves@crest.org
Cc: Smail Khennas; Kurt Rhyner Pozak; Tom Miles
Subject: Re: Forwarding Prof. Matirena on briquette work in Cuba and
"binders"

Dear Ron!

Thanks for your interesting comments. I'm already in the list so I'm posting
this message directly on it.

As to your interesting points:

(RWL2): You show prices or costs like .09 and .13 for one brick. Are
> these Euros?

> (RWL3): Have you ever considered using holes in
> the brick to assist in ignition? Could you describe your ignition
process.

(RWL3):This looks like a brick that would be pretty hard to ignite -
> because of its quite large size.

>How about cylindrical rather than brick forms?

We are exploring new and more productive presses, where we are also thinking
of cylindrical forms. In two months we will have our first prototype of the
new press in operation.

The test was contracted to a R&D center in our University. They used the
following equipment:

- Exhaust gas analyzer ORSAT: it allows the simultaneous análisis of oxygen,
carbon dioxide and monoxide

- Digital thermometer Kane Maye to measure gas temperature separately.

Saludos, Fernando

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Larson" <ronallarson@qwest.net>
To: "Fernando Martirena" <f.martirena@enet.cu>; <stoves@crest.org>
Cc: "Smail Khennas" <Smailk@ITDG.org.uk>; <arconsult@cwcom.net>; "Kurt
Rhyner Pozak" <sofonias@compuserve.com>; "Tom Miles" <tmiles@trmiles.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2002 4:03 PM
Subject: RE: Forwarding Prof. Matirena on briquette work in Cuba and
"binders"

This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended
solely for the use of the individuals or entity to whom they are addressed.
ITDG and it subsidiaries(ITC and ITDG Publishing) cannot accept liability or
contractual inferences for statements which are clearly the senders own and
not made on behalf of ITDG or it subsidiaries(ITC and ITDG Publishing).

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From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Thu Oct 10 05:54:54 2002
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:17 2004
Subject: salt in the lamp
In-Reply-To: <200210100819.g9A8JHR06094@saturn.eagle-access.net>
Message-ID: <20021010135132.GA14903@cybershamanix.com>

I'd certainly be interested in seeing it.

On Thu, Oct 10, 2002 at 01:22:20AM -0600, Das wrote:
> Yes the lovely Aladdin lamp. A love hate relationship for the remotely
> civilized. I enjoyed the elegance of a bright light without electricity,
> but all the parts of the Aladdin were specialized and expensive and parts
> hard to find. I resolved to come up with something simpler and less exotic.
>
> I have succeeded in making a wood sawdust fueled mantle lamp gasifier using
> an ordinary coleman mantle. It puts out the light of 60 to 100 watt light
> bulb. Would anyone have a use for sugh a device?
>
> A. Das Original Sources/Biomass Energy Foundation
> Box 7137, Boulder, CO 80306 USA
> das@eagle-access.net
> 303-237-3579
>

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

"War is just a racket ... something that is not what it seems to the
majority of people. Only a small group knows what its about. It is
conducted for the benefit of the very few at the expense of the
masses." --- Major General Smedley Butler, 1933

"Our overriding purpose, from the beginning through to the present
day, has been world domination - that is, to build and maintain the
capacity to coerce everybody else on the planet: nonviolently, if
possible, and violently, if necessary. But the purpose of US foreign
policy of domination is not just to make the rest of the world jump
through hoops; the purpose is to faciliate our exploitation of
resources."
- Ramsey Clark, former US Attorney General

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From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Thu Oct 10 06:02:41 2002
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:17 2004
Subject: salt in the lamp
In-Reply-To: <200210100819.g9A8JHR06094@saturn.eagle-access.net>
Message-ID: <20021010135919.GB14903@cybershamanix.com>

On Thu, Oct 10, 2002 at 01:22:20AM -0600, Das wrote:
> I have succeeded in making a wood sawdust fueled mantle lamp gasifier using
> an ordinary coleman mantle. It puts out the light of 60 to 100 watt light
> bulb. Would anyone have a use for sugh a device?
>

Funny, I was just wondering last night how woodgas would work with one of
those catalytic gas heaters?

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

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From f.martirena at enet.cu Thu Oct 10 07:22:29 2002
From: f.martirena at enet.cu (Fernando Martirena)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:17 2004
Subject: Forwarding Prof. Matirena on briquette work in Cuba and "binders"
In-Reply-To: <02E01CE12537D5118F2B0002A550DDC7185EBE@ITDG-MAIL>
Message-ID: <015e01c2706f$cfd85fe0$640e14ac@fc.uclv.edu.cu>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Smail Khennas" <smailk@itdg.org.uk>
> Dear all
> Slight correction due to a typing mistake in the figures given by Fernando
> one US$ = 27 CUP (cuban pesos) and not the other way. Fernando may
confirm
> and explain the sublities of exchange rates in Cuba

Thanks Smail for your correction... Cuba is a very special country in terms
of foreign currency exchange policy... for goods sold in the "open" market,
such as cloths, food, electrodomestic and so on you have to pay in dollars
at the above described exchange rate. For all official operations, such as
subsidized housing construction, subsidized purchase of building materials,
household electricity, telephone bills, etc., you pay in Cuban pesos that
exchange at a totally different exchange rate (1CUP= 1$US)... this is why a
"normal family" can live with approximately 500 pesos of monthly income
(barely $US 30)...

This mixed currency system is difficult to explain in a couple of sentences;
this is why I did not encourage you to use our cost figures as reference for
other countries.

regards, fernando

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From f.martirena at enet.cu Thu Oct 10 08:38:28 2002
From: f.martirena at enet.cu (Fernando Martirena)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:17 2004
Subject: Forwarding Prof. Matirena on briquette work in Cuba and "binders"
In-Reply-To: <NGBBKDEHILILFNJPHEFIGEIGCCAA.ronallarson@qwest.net>
Message-ID: <01a901c2707a$6cedf3d0$640e14ac@fc.uclv.edu.cu>

Dear Mr.
Stanley:<?xml:namespace prefix =
o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

Thank you very much for
your message. Thanks also for the useful tips and for sharing your experience.
Please have a look at my insertions below.

kind regards

fernando

<DIV
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; BORDER-LEFT: black 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt">----- Original Message -----
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt">
From: <A
title=rstanley@legacyfound.org href="mailto:rstanley@legacyfound.org">Richard
Stanley

<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt">To: <A
title=f.martirena@enet.cu href="mailto:f.martirena@enet.cu">Fernando
Martirena
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt">Cc: <A
title=ronallarson@qwest.net href="mailto:ronallarson@qwest.net">Ron Larson ;
stoves@crest.org ;
Smail Khennas ;
Kurt
Rhyner Pozak ; <A title=tmiles@trmiles.com
href="mailto:tmiles@trmiles.com">Tom Miles
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt">Sent: Thursday,
October 10, 2002 1:26 PM
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt">Subject: Re: Forwarding
Prof. Matirena on briquette work in Cuba and
"binders"
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt">
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt">Estimado Sr.
Martirena ,
<P
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN-LEFT: 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt">Thanks for sharing your experience
and thanks to Ron for having enticed your participation. I would like to
offer our experience in two topics you mentioned, the cinva ram mold problem and
the processing of biomass.
<P
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN-LEFT: 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt">The mold problem: While in
Tanzania 1974 - '81, managing an AT project, we revised the cinva ram for
replication within the local resource base, and started a successful local
industry manufacturing a local version of it in fact to this day.

<P
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN-LEFT: 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt">We too faced the issue of devising a
means of providing holes while assuring a compact block. One fine day, while
sitting (actually squatting) on the tiolet, I realised the solution
handing onthe wall, in the form of a tiolet paper holder. This gadget was an
overlapping sleeve of two metal tubes held apart by a simple compression
spring. Bolting two sets of these compressable tubes onto a simple base plate
insert for the "Machini ya Udongo ya Saruji" ,as it was known,
effectively formed two vertical plugs which allowed the piston to
travel into the mold without loosing the required hole shape in the resulting
block. The only problem was what it did for public relations with now reduced
toilet facilities but during those early days of Ujamaa, that mattered less than
improved housing ...Whether or not the tube plug insert is in use I do not know
but it worked well during our initial tests.
(FM1) Thanks a lot for this
very clever idea to solve a problem over which we have been working for a
long time... we're still on time to include this idea on our prototype, as
we are still manufacturing it. I'll keep you informed and of course, you'll
get the credits for the idea!!
<DIV
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; BORDER-LEFT: black 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN-LEFT: 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt">On the issue of processing
biomass... We began or forray into biomass in 1994, Malawi East /Central
Africa. The early attempt used the conventional process: a relatively dry
biomass (?10%moisture) and high pressure machinery with the consequent
frustration of maintenance, energy costs and short shelf life of the resulting
product in the ambient humidity of the rainy season. Thanks to mentor Ben Bryant
,ret. Univ of Washingon/ College of Forest Resources, we resorted to a wet low
pressure process. Binding in this process, relies upon dissociation of fibers
from the biomass, to both interlock with each other and/or to encapsulate other
more granular and pithy biomass material such as rice husks sawdust charcoal
fines etc etc., when compacted / dewatered. To ensure ease of loading the mold
and good blending of fibers, we operate basically in slurried water bath
of 10-15% non woody biomass solids. When these materials are sized, decomposed
to the right stage and blended in the correct proportions will yield dry
briquette densities on the order of 225 Kg / M3 using a hand operated
compound lever press which operates at 12 - 15 kg/cm2.

(FM2) Actually this is
similar to what we have experienced. We have started in practical
applications with sawdust, since this material is already chopped (or
shredded). For other materials such as sugar cane bagasse or straw we have
to cut the material into smaller pieces (1-5 mm according to our
experience) for which we do need a shredder or a grinder whatsoever. We process
the biomass on one side, on the other side prepare a water/clay slurry
(water/clay ratio between 1:1.5 and 1:2.5). Then both materials are mixed
together till homogeneity is achieved, and they are finally pressed in the mold.
Water leaking whilst pressing is a good indicator of having achieved the needed
pressure and having mixed the ingredients at the right
proportion.
<DIV
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; BORDER-LEFT: black 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN-LEFT: 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt">Our principle aim in this project,
has been to extend the technology to micro-entrepreneurs in the
"developing nations" as a product which they then produce and sell as a
firewood substitute in their local markets. As the effort rolls on
however, there arises the need for more institutional and small business
applications which both tolerate and demand higher volume mechanised equipment.
We are, albeit with limited resources, incorporating the same water slurry
process in high speed mechanism which chops,mashes, blends and then compresses
and de-waters the material, all in one oil drum-sized housing. (Its actually a
bit smaller than that but the irony of using an oil drum for comparison is hard
to pass up).
<P
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN-LEFT: 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt">Although I have never thought of it,
it seem to me that this same mechanism could well incorporate your
mentioned clays in the production of a fire block with residual ash for onward
use in the cement industry. In fact the incorporation clays to the water slurry
process would insure good mixing and blending of such material.

(FM3) Our
target group is the micro entrepreneurs in the developing world as well. As I
said before, we disseminate our technologies through the Latin American network
for the sustainable Habitat ECOSUR (<A
href="http://www.ecosur.org/">www.ecosur.org ). The interesting side of all what we currently do in the field of
appropriate technology is that the result is universally replicable, provided
you consider the technology requirements of the place where you pretend to
implement it. This means we can use the same concepts underlying our work for an
industrial process, where high-speed mechanisms and automated technologies are
applied. I’m happy to see that you have a similar experience.
<DIV
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; BORDER-LEFT: black 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN-LEFT: 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt">Saludos y, hablar'iamos !

(FM4) Thanks a lot for your time and your comments

saludos, fernando

From ronallarson at qwest.net Thu Oct 10 19:53:33 2002
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:17 2004
Subject: Reply to Bryan Willson on measurements
In-Reply-To: <IKEDKFNCEGGOEHHJPHKDGEEPEFAA.Bryan.Willson@colostate.edu>
Message-ID: <NGBBKDEHILILFNJPHEFIGELACCAA.ronallarson@qwest.net>

Stovers:

I just found the "lost" message of a week ago - in which Bryan asked

<snip>

"There was a book on Appropriate Technology published in the UK 15-20 years
back which included the following phrase in it's Forward - "If it is worth
doing, it is worth doing badly, rather than not at all." At the time I
first read this, I felt that it was an enabling attitude. However, I now
find that I agree less and less with this viewpoint as time goes on. I'd be
interested in comments from the rest of the Stoves group. It seems to me
that we need to connect the ingenuity of various inventors to modern
research laboratories with analytical measurement capabilities."

Comments?

RWL: I want to agree wholeheartedly with both aspects of Bryan's comments
above. We are finally getting around to measuring stoves carefully and I
greatly appreciate the work of persons like Bryan who have both the skill
and facilities to do good measurements. We should not be "doing badly.."
whenever a little testing is possible. Thanks especially to Kirk Smith and
Tami Bond for getting us going down this testing route. Now we need to find
low cost means of testing. I personally am very disappointed in the Shell
Foundation for dropping this phase of the problem.

Ron

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From mchambwera at wwf.org.zw Fri Oct 11 01:28:01 2002
From: mchambwera at wwf.org.zw (Muyeye Chambwera)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:17 2004
Subject: Energy Ladder Hypothesis
Message-ID: <200210101104.g9AB4xe00751@mail.wwf.org.zw>

Dear Stovers,

I have been trying to get literature on the energy ladder hypothesis,
but have been getting little. I am especially looking for a paper
done by Richard Hosier for Zimbabwe in 1987. Have failed to
locate this paper so far. Anyone to help?

Muyeye Chambwera

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From ronallarson at qwest.net Fri Oct 11 03:44:22 2002
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:17 2004
Subject: Energy Ladder Hypothesis
In-Reply-To: <200210101104.g9AB4xe00751@mail.wwf.org.zw>
Message-ID: <NGBBKDEHILILFNJPHEFIGELDCCAA.ronallarson@qwest.net>

Muyeye:

1. In a search at www.google.com, I tried these terms (Richard Hosier
Zimbabwe Energy ladder) and got 6 or so hits - with a strong likelihood that
the paper you want is:

Hosier R and Dowd, J 1987. Household fuel choice in Zimbabwe: an empirical
test of the energy
ladder hypothesis. Resources and Energy Journal Vol 9.

2. I tried the above with a search including Kirk Smith's name and guess
there must be about three dozen citations there - and I have seen the term
"energy ladder" often in Kirk's work (Kirk is off list right now - in
Central America)

3. Having lived for a few months in Zimbabwe, I am intrigued by the title
of this paper (haven't read) and your question. When you find the paper, or
even earlier, could you tell us the reason for your inquiry? We have had
very little discussion of this "ladder" hypothesis on this list. I ask
because there is little use of charcoal in Zimbabwe, I think, but believe it
is the second step on the ladder.

Best of luck

-----Original Message-----
From: Muyeye Chambwera [mailto:mchambwera@wwf.org.zw]
Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 3:07 AM
To: stoves@crest.org; Bioenergy@crest.org
Subject: Energy Ladder Hypothesis

Dear Stovers,

Muyeye Chambwera

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From adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in Fri Oct 11 05:15:56 2002
From: adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in (A.D. Karve)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:17 2004
Subject: mantle lamp
Message-ID: <000001c27125$433d1380$1451c5cb@adkarvepn2.vsnl.net.in>

Das, I would like to know details of this lamp
A.D.Karve

From rbailis at socrates.Berkeley.EDU Fri Oct 11 09:26:15 2002
From: rbailis at socrates.Berkeley.EDU (Robert Bailis)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:17 2004
Subject: Energy Ladder Hypothesis
In-Reply-To: <200210101104.g9AB4xe00751@mail.wwf.org.zw>
Message-ID: <3DA70F0D.EB27FFCE@socrates.berkeley.edu>

Muyeye,

Makadii? I am a student studying energy and development in sub-Saharan Africa
and I had the pleasure of working briefly in Zimbabwe in 2000-2001. I have
several references to the Enery Ladder model that may be useful for you.

The Hosier article you refer to is indeed in RESOURCES AND ENERGY - the full
reference is pasted below. I don't have the article in hand, but I could get it
for you.

HOSIER RH, DOWD J, (DEC 1987), HOUSEHOLD FUEL CHOICE IN ZIMBABWE - AN
EMPIRICAL-TEST OF THE ENERGY LADDER HYPOTHESIS, RESOURCES AND ENERGY, Vol 9 (4):
347-361

This article might be one of the earlier references to the energy ladder model,
though as Ronal mentioned, Kirk Smith also makes reference to it around the same
time in a number of articles.

There were two issues of Energy Policy (EP) published in the early 1990s that
have some very useful articles. The first is an article by Gerald Leach in EP
Vol 20 No. 2 (1992) called "The Energy Transition". This article discusses the
state of houseold fuel substitution in the late 1980s and early 1990s in a
global context. The other set of articles are in EP Vol 21 No. 5 (1993) - many
of these were written or edited by Hosier and focus mainly on Tanzania . I have
both of these volumes and I'd be happy to mail you copies if you can't access
them in Zim.

Last, the Energy Ladder model is useful, but can be a misleading
simplification. It basically states that household fuel choice changes to
higher efficiency and cleaner burning fuels as household income (or national
GNP) rises, but it ignores cultural choice, household dynamics, fuel and stove
availability, and a number of other factors. There's a good article in the
journal World Development (Vol. 28, No. 12, pp. 2083-2103, 2000) that outlines
the weaknesses in the model in the context of fuel switching in Mexico. Here's
the full reference:

Masera, O. et al, (2000), From Linear Fuel Switching to Multiple Cooking
Strategies: A Critique and Alternative to the Energy Ladder Model, Vol. 28, No.
12, pp. 2083-2103.

I have this last article in paper and electronic form and I'd be happy to send
it to you in either format. Please respond off-list and I can send you
whichever articles you think might be most useful for you. Sarai zvakanaka...

Rob Bailis

Muyeye Chambwera wrote:

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From stephen.gitonga at undp.org Fri Oct 11 11:32:30 2002
From: stephen.gitonga at undp.org (Stephen Gitonga)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:17 2004
Subject: Energy Ladder Hypothesis
In-Reply-To: <200210101104.g9AB4xe00751@mail.wwf.org.zw>
Message-ID: <3DA726B6.CB3B45E6@undp.org>

Hello Muyeye

Mine is not to give you references but to share with you my expereinces so that
you approach the energy ladder question from an informed poistion.

My personal experience in East Africa shows that the energy ladder cannot be
generalized and is not a straight path as was explained in the 1980’s. It has
both horizontal and vertical trends with several fuel mixes as one moves from
one poverty level to another. It is highly influenced by people’s response to
cultural, economic and social values/status within their environment. It is not
purely a movement from poor to clean fuels as one gets more resources but a form
of coping strategy. The coping strategy therefore differs from one level of
affordability to the next but all have similar characteristics.

I have drafted the table below, to cut a long story short (in the word
attachment).

Generally, the very poor use dominantly the loose biomass fuels, as they
graduate upwards, they start using more of firewood but still maintain some
level of use of loose biomass fuels. As they get more resources, they start to
use more firewood, complemented with, charcoal, and still keep some minimal use
of loose biomass fuels. The situation continues with charcoal becoming the
dominant fuel. Later kerosene, LPG and finally electricity.
Reasons:
1) Supply of LPG is not always assured, so kerosene and electricity is used when
there is no adequate supply of LPG.
2) Electricity supply is not predictable and power cuts are common. In this
regards, LPG, charcoal, kerosene are used on standby depending on the preference
of the user.
3) There are some cultural foods that requires one to have multiple types of
stoves, and therefore fuels
4) Fuels might be easy and cheap to get but prices of equipment (eg gas cookers,
electric cookers) is expensive. This has a bearing on LPG and electric cookers
5) Charcoal is so versatile that it is not only used for cooking or heating but
also for house warming
6) Electricity cost is very high relative to other fuels and therefore, when
cooking hard foods that take long to cook, and when boiling water, charcoal is
preferred even by the ones endowed with resources.

So as Rob Bailis mentioned, the Mexican case is very close to what you find in
East Africa and in most places. I would urge you to be careful in using the
energy ladder concepts that were developed in the 1980’s without modifying them
to fit with your country’s social, cultural and economic perspectives in
relation to use of energy.

State of poverty Energy mixes
Dominant to less dominant
Very poor Loose biomass fuels, firewood
Firewood, loose biomass fuels
Firewood, charcoal, loose biomass fuels
Charcoal, firewood, Loose biomass fuels, kerosene,
Firewood, charcoal, kerosene
Charcoal, Firewood, kerosene, LPG
Charcoal, kerosene, LPG, electricity
Kerosene, lpg, charcoal, electricity
Charcoal, lpg, electricity
Lpg, electricity, charcoal
Rich Lpg, electricity

Regards

Stephen Gitonga

Muyeye Chambwera wrote:

> Dear Stovers,
>
> I have been trying to get literature on the energy ladder hypothesis,
> but have been getting little. I am especially looking for a paper
> done by Richard Hosier for Zimbabwe in 1987. Have failed to
> locate this paper so far. Anyone to help?
>
> Muyeye Chambwera
>
> -
> Stoves List Archives and Website:
> http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200209/
> http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
> >
> Stoves List Moderators:
> Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
> Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
>
> Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon
>
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Energy ladder.doc

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From ronallarson at qwest.net Sat Oct 12 17:54:57 2002
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:17 2004
Subject: Forwarding Richard Hosier on Energy Ladder Hypothesis
In-Reply-To: <6386068383.6838363860@undp.org>
Message-ID: <NGBBKDEHILILFNJPHEFIMEMBCCAA.ronallarson@qwest.net>

Richard Hosier):

I interpret your following message to be one that would be of interest to
all stovers. Thanks for this expression of your continued interest in this
topic area.

Stovers:
1. Below you will see that Richard is offering to get his paper on the
energy ladder hypothesis into an electronic form.
2. He also is looking for other citations (such as Bob Bailis provided
recently). Anyone else have ideas to offer.

Ron

-----Original Message-----
From: Richard Hosier [mailto:richard.hosier@undp.org]
Sent: Friday, October 11, 2002 2:44 PM
To: Ron Larson
Subject: Re: FW: Energy Ladder Hypothesis

Ron:

I'll do what I can next week to have it scanned and sent to you. I
would appreciate your making it available, if possible. Unfortunately,
my management decided to renovate and we have no temporary space,
making all of this somewhat harder.

I am just beginning the process of writing a review of the Energy
Ladder concept and would appreciate any other references that you might
have or know of.

cheers,
Dick Hosier

PS Do you have an email address for Kirk Smith?

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Larson" <ronallarson@qwest.net>
Date: Friday, October 11, 2002 7:55 am
Subject: FW: Energy Ladder Hypothesis

>
> Richard:
>
> 1.After sending the following to the stoves list for which
> I am
> coordinator, I wondered about who you might be. Google making it
> easy, I am
> taking the liberty to alert you of this inquiry into your past.
> Mightyou/we be able to post this paper in electronic form?
>
> 2. The "stoves" list can be found at www.crest.org. You
> can only write
> back to the list if you join it (instructions lower)- but I can
> send on
> anything you send me.
>
> 3. I went to Johannesburg myself, along with half a dozen
> others on the
> list. If you were there you might enjoy some comments about the
> WSSD in the
> last month's mails.
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Ron
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ron Larson [mailto:ronallarson@qwest.net]
> Sent: Friday, October 11, 2002 5:45 AM
> To: Muyeye Chambwera; stoves@crest.org
> Subject: RE: Energy Ladder Hypothesis
>
>
> Muyeye:
>
> 1. In a search at www.google.com, I tried these terms
> (Richard Hosier
> Zimbabwe Energy ladder) and got 6 or so hits - with a strong
> likelihood that
> the paper you want is:
>
> Hosier R and Dowd, J 1987. Household fuel choice in Zimbabwe: an
> empiricaltest of the energy
> ladder hypothesis. Resources and Energy Journal Vol 9.
>
> 2. I tried the above with a search including Kirk Smith's
> name and guess
> there must be about three dozen citations there - and I have seen
> the term
> "energy ladder" often in Kirk's work (Kirk is off list right now - in
> Central America)
>
> 3. Having lived for a few months in Zimbabwe, I am
> intrigued by the title
> of this paper (haven't read) and your question. When you find the
> paper, or
> even earlier, could you tell us the reason for your inquiry? We
> have had
> very little discussion of this "ladder" hypothesis on this list.
> I ask
> because there is little use of charcoal in Zimbabwe, I think, but
> believe it
> is the second step on the ladder.
>
> Best of luck
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Muyeye Chambwera [mailto:mchambwera@wwf.org.zw]
> Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 3:07 AM
> To: stoves@crest.org; Bioenergy@crest.org
> Subject: Energy Ladder Hypothesis
>
>
> Dear Stovers,
>
> I have been trying to get literature on the energy ladder hypothesis,
> but have been getting little. I am especially looking for a paper
> done by Richard Hosier for Zimbabwe in 1987. Have failed to
> locate this paper so far. Anyone to help?
>
> Muyeye Chambwera
>
> -

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From elk at wananchi.com Sat Oct 12 20:49:36 2002
From: elk at wananchi.com (elk)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:17 2004
Subject: Biodiesel
Message-ID: <000001c27273$9346ee60$5044083e@42v2501>

From Gavin at roseplac.worldonline.co.uk Sun Oct 13 05:23:00 2002
From: Gavin at roseplac.worldonline.co.uk (Gavin Gulliver-Goodall)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:17 2004
Subject: Biodiesel
In-Reply-To: <000001c27273$9346ee60$5044083e@42v2501>
Message-ID: <MABBJLGAAFJBOBCKKPMGEEADCHAA.Gavin@roseplac.worldonline.co.uk>

I know 2
people doing this, Both have approached the UK excise department to requesta a
clauclation on how much duty (tax) they should pay for each litre of “biodiesel2
they produce.

Both are
still waiting for an answer several months after their enquiry.

However it
is illegal for them to use the fuel if they haven’t paid the duty- even if the
government is not letting them pay

Consipricay
theorists may make assumptions1

gavin

Gavin
Gulliver-Goodall

3G
Energi,

Tel +44 (0)1835
824201

Fax +44 (0)870
8314098

Mob +44 (0)7773
781498

E mail
Gavin@3genergi.co.uk <mailto:Gavin@3genergi.co.uk>

The contents of
this email and any attachments are the property of 3G Energi and are intended for the confidential
use of the named recipient(s) only.
They may be legally privileged and should not be communicated to or
relied upon by any person without our express written consent. If you are not an addressee please
notify us immediately at the address above or by email at Gavin@3genergi.co.uk
<mailto:Gavin@3genergi.co.uk>. Any files attached to this email will have
been checked with virus detection software before transmission. However, you should carry out your own
virus check before opening any attachment. 3G Energi accepts no liability for any loss or damage that
may be caused by software viruses.

-----Original
Message-----
From: elk
[mailto:elk@wananchi.com]
Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2002
6:49
To: stoves@crest.org
Subject: Biodiesel

Short
note on recycled cooking oil:

Just
heard on the BBC that British traffic police are cracking down on motorists
using discarded cooking oil to dilute the fuel in their diesel vehicles- the
offence is apparently that they avoid paying automotive fuel taxes- which is
perceived as an offence.

The
response team that has been formed is nicknamed the 'Frying Squad' and they
apparently use their noses to detect the lawbreakers- a car's emissions
using a proportion of used cooking oil as fuel smells of fish & chips.

No
joke- it's humorous, but a sad commentary on a government's tolerance to fuel
substitution.

elk

--------------------------
Elsen L. Karstad
elk@wananchi.com
www.chardust.com
Nairobi Kenya

From stephen.gitonga at undp.org Sun Oct 13 07:02:08 2002
From: stephen.gitonga at undp.org (Stephen Gitonga)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:17 2004
Subject: Biodiesel
Message-ID: <b3f2e669.e669b3f2@undp.org>

Warning
Could not process message with given Content-Type:
multipart/mixed; boundary="--6f783272110a3f2b"

From Gavin at roseplac.worldonline.co.uk Sun Oct 13 10:24:45 2002
From: Gavin at roseplac.worldonline.co.uk (Gavin Gulliver-Goodall)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:17 2004
Subject: Biodiesel
In-Reply-To: <b3f2e669.e669b3f2@undp.org>
Message-ID: <MABBJLGAAFJBOBCKKPMGAEAGCHAA.Gavin@roseplac.worldonline.co.uk>

Great, I expect the Customs& Excise men are prepared to collect large
amounts of tax from asda, who will make a fool of them shoul d they not
achieve it.
The police are prepared to act against my friend in his truck as customs
wont respond to him
One law for the rich...

Gavin Gulliver-Goodall
3G Energi,

Tel +44 (0)1835 824201
Fax +44 (0)870 8314098
Mob +44 (0)7773 781498
E mail Gavin@3genergi.co.uk <mailto:Gavin@3genergi.co.uk>

-----Original Message-----
From: Stephen Gitonga [mailto:stephen.gitonga@undp.org]
Sent: Sunday, October 13, 2002 15:59
To: Gavin Gulliver-Goodall
Cc: elk; stoves@crest.org
Subject: Re: RE: Biodiesel

Hello Stovers

I would like to bring to your attention the good news from UK on use
of biodiesel as reported by TVE(Televison for the Environment) and
broadcast on Television by BBC Hand on programme. It was on air just
last months.

Regards

Stephen Gitonga

The text from TVE website follows
[GGG] SNIP

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From stephen.gitonga at undp.org Sun Oct 13 11:09:13 2002
From: stephen.gitonga at undp.org (Stephen Gitonga)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:18 2004
Subject: Biodiesel
Message-ID: <1013a11027.110271013a@undp.org>

Hello Stovers

At the end of the article, there was this cautionally note in regard
to taxes.......

"Please Note: In the UK, it is illegal to use untaxed biodiesel in
your
engine for road use under Customs and Excise law. For those who wish
to use biodiesel, it is advised that you contact us for a registered
list of suppliers and garages in the UK.

For more information on Asda's biodiesel scheme, please contact:

Public Relations
ASDA
Asda House, Southbank
Great Wilson Street
Leeds LS11 5AD
United Kingdom

Tel: 0113 241 8857
Fax: 0113 241 8015

Regards

Stephen Gitonga
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gavin Gulliver-Goodall" <Gavin@roseplac.worldonline.co.uk>
Date: Sunday, October 13, 2002 2:21 pm
Subject: RE: RE: Biodiesel

> Great, I expect the Customs& Excise men are prepared to collect large
> amounts of tax from asda, who will make a fool of them shoul d
> they not
> achieve it.
> The police are prepared to act against my friend in his truck as
> customswont respond to him
> One law for the rich...
>
> Gavin Gulliver-Goodall
> 3G Energi,
>
> Tel +44 (0)1835 824201
> Fax +44 (0)870 8314098
> Mob +44 (0)7773 781498
> E mail Gavin@3genergi.co.uk <mailto:Gavin@3genergi.co.uk>
>
> The contents of this email and any attachments are the property of
> 3G Energi
> and are intended for the confidential use of the named
> recipient(s) only.
> They may be legally privileged and should not be communicated to
> or relied
> upon by any person without our express written consent. If you
> are not an
> addressee please notify us immediately at the address above or by
> email at
> Gavin@3genergi.co.uk <mailto:Gavin@3genergi.co.uk>. Any files
> attached to
> this email will have been checked with virus detection software
before
> transmission. However, you should carry out your own virus check
> beforeopening any attachment. 3G Energi accepts no liability for
> any loss or
> damage that may be caused by software viruses.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stephen Gitonga [mailto:stephen.gitonga@undp.org]
> Sent: Sunday, October 13, 2002 15:59
> To: Gavin Gulliver-Goodall
> Cc: elk; stoves@crest.org
> Subject: Re: RE: Biodiesel
>
> Hello Stovers
>
> I would like to bring to your attention the good news from UK on use
> of biodiesel as reported by TVE(Televison for the Environment) and
> broadcast on Television by BBC Hand on programme. It was on air just
> last months.
>
> Regards
>
> Stephen Gitonga
>
> The text from TVE website follows
> [GGG] SNIP
>
>
> -
> Stoves List Archives and Website:
> http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200209/
> http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
> >
> Stoves List Moderators:
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> Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
>
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> http://www.crest.or Gasification
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begin:vcard
n:Gitonga;Stephen
fn:Stephen Gitonga
tel;fax:(212) 906-6568
tel;work:(212) 906-5180
org:GEF Small Grants Programme;UNDP/BDP/ESDG
adr:;;304 East, 45th Street;New York;New York;10017;USA
version:2.1
email;internet:stephen.gitonga@undp.org
title:Climate Change Programme Officer
end:vcard

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From andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com Sun Oct 13 12:29:44 2002
From: andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com (AJH)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:18 2004
Subject: Wood-gas as biofuel for famous "AGA Cooker"
In-Reply-To: <003801c26dcc$25d0ebc0$2cdafea9@42v2501>
Message-ID: <uvgjqu4g9eoreidl5jnuff87nep7g0lrvc@4ax.com>

On Tue, 8 Oct 2002 15:04:06 +0200, Jan Cáp <capjan@vol.cz> wrote:

>if I see schema of traditional AGA Cooker (e.g. on www.aga-rayburn.com or
>photos on www.agacentral.com/agayours1.html page), it occurred to me that
>ideal renewable source of heat for AGA may be a simple wood-gas burner from
>china (see attachment China.gif - cover of second combustion chamber -
>element number 3 as first hot plate of AGA cooker).

I am no fan of the AGA concept, they have vast thermal mass and are
more a fashion statement in UK, rather than an efficient means of
heating or cooking.

The device you picture is a close coupled cross draught combustor,
similar designs are sold by kunzle and kolbe in europe for burning
cordwood in wet central heating systems. I have one built by a
colleague and it can visibly cleanly burn quite wet logs. By changing
the air supplies it can produce very high temperature in the secondary
combustion chamber, in fact with slight modification the design will
smelt metal at one stage of the burn cycle when batch loaded, do a
search in the archives on Dasifier.

Are they available cheaply? China does seem the ubiquitous source for
many goods. Interestingly to me that you can purchase a child's bike
from Walmart, made in China, for USD35, so the potential for mass
producing simple iron stoves cheaply must be there.
>
>I enjoy yours suggestions about this idea.

My main thought is that you will never get good enough heat transfer
out of a hotplate here, also as the temperature in the secondary
chamber will be very high the hotplate will need to be better than
iron. This device is designed to be coupled to a downstream heat
exchanger.

AJH

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From andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com Sun Oct 13 12:30:58 2002
From: andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com (AJH)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:18 2004
Subject: straw briquettes
In-Reply-To: <003801c26dcc$25d0ebc0$2cdafea9@42v2501>
Message-ID: <hcijqug4h5m04g259l5fe9sfhfiqdllqhs@4ax.com>

On Mon, 7 Oct 2002 08:00:56 +0300, "elk" <elk@wananchi.com> wrote:

>I've had some experience with straw briquette 'logs' here. About 10 years ago I was processing Nile Perch filleting waste to fishmeal & used compressed straw logs as a fuel for clarifying fish oil by-product (to be used as boiler fuel).
>
>Though hard and dense- with an attractive glaze to the surface- these logs could in no way be compared favourably with wood as a fuel. They expanded upon burning and created much smoke, little flame and a lot of ash.
>
>All biomass is not equal when it comes to it's value as fuel.

I actually agree with this last sentence, despite Tom Reed having said
all biomass having the same energy density on an ash free, dry basis,
there is little doubt wood is amongst the easier to burn cleanly.

The difference is probably all to do with the way you set about
burning "difficult" biomass. With the straw briquette being smoky we
can see that a lot of the mass is leaving the fire as unburnt
material. So a more sophisticated (and hence likely more expensive)
combustion device is required. I still feel there is more scope in
making these difficult fuels burn well. I see ELK made a similar
observation in Message-ID: <000001c26aac$364c89a0$9b47083e@42v2501>
when replying to Stephen Gitonga.

The bit about expanding on heating is something I have commented on
before, I think it means that whilst compressed, the straw has not
undergone the change in cell structure that high densification
achieves. Once the binding force is overcome, by heat, the fibers
regain their original shape. To some extent this is true of wood
pellets, whilst these are squeezed to the extent that the cell walls
collapse and the lignin flows and on cooling binds the contents, it
does not pay to put any more power into the process than to form a
skin around the centre. Drop a wood pellet in water and it reverts to
dust fairly quickly.

Ronal commented on my meaning of binder, I was happy to use the term
for both the twine and the glue as it is the end result we are looking
at, and that is to form the material into an energy dense product
which can fuel a stove. The question is which will be cheapest? I tend
to not consider clay because of the extra mass it introduces, though
for local use it must be ideal.

I too would like to see Das' woodgas mantle lamp if pictures could be
put on the website.

AJH

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From andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com Sun Oct 13 12:32:13 2002
From: andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com (AJH)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:18 2004
Subject: Biodiesel
In-Reply-To: <000001c27273$9346ee60$5044083e@42v2501>
Message-ID: <61ljqu0gneg1hmmhaiujkkp3k9mnaup74a@4ax.com>

On Sat, 12 Oct 2002 08:49:15 +0300, "elk" <elk@wananchi.com> wrote:

>Short note on recycled cooking oil:
>
>Just heard on the BBC that British traffic police are cracking down on motorists using discarded cooking oil to dilute the fuel in their diesel vehicles- the offence is apparently that they avoid paying automotive fuel taxes- which is perceived as an offence.

Not only is it perceived as an offence, it is one, Her Majesty's
government depends on this revenue to keep the island afloat. It is
akin to distilling your own moonshine.

>No joke- it's humorous, but a sad commentary on a government's tolerance to fuel substitution.

I see Gavin has also responded. To me the real take on this is how
highly we value transport fuel and how cheap fossil fuels are. Our
propensity to use fuel for transport is such that even when the price
is made up of 20% base fuel and 80% tax we will use it.

It is possible to use biofuels for transport, their tax rate is
GBP0.20 less per litre than fossil fuel, this hardly accounts for the
fact that their fuel value is more than 10% below fossil fuels because
they are already partially oxygenated. The only fuel not taxed here
for road transport is electricity. The british public is blissfully
unaware of how tax is applied per litre of fuel whilst the energy
value is better measured in price per kg.

The use of biofuels in UK in this manner is not anything to do with
fuel substitution but just a way to find a cheaper fuel. There are a
number of lawful enterprises making biodiesel by transesterification
of fats and oils, these range from recycling products which would
otherwise have a disposal cost to farm diversification schemes to
enable growth of non food crops on subsidised schemes where local farm
costs cannot compete with the food we currently depend on imports for.

AJH

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From andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com Sun Oct 13 12:33:55 2002
From: andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com (AJH)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:18 2004
Subject: Roller briquetter
In-Reply-To: <005001c26c4b$95f7fec0$2a47fea9@md>
Message-ID: <5kijqu44lubsrrok8fmdh9lkupp0452csb@4ax.com>

On Mon, 7 Oct 2002 07:47:45 +0300, "elk" <elk@wananchi.com> wrote:

>SORE POINT! Good memory Andrew.... We did indeed buy a used unit from a
>dealer in New Jersey. Sounded good at the time- a Hutt double roller
>compactor capable of over 500 kg per hour with adjustable speed etc. The
>outputted briquettes were described as being two inches long by 1 inch
>wide...... bit small but O.K. we thought.... BIG disappointment when it
>finally arrived and we discovered the missing vital statistic: the
>briquettes were only a quarter inch thick!

But did it produce a compact briquette? What was the power
consumption? I take it the briquettes produced were just unacceptable
to your customers?
>
>We tried to get rollers with larger dimples- not availablefor this model.
>Then we ground out the separations between every other dimple to see if we
>could get double-sized & thicker briquettes..... nope. The rollers are too
>small in diameter to 'bite' enough material to compress properly, and this
>machine cannot be converted to accept larger rollers- so we are informed by
>the dealers.
>
>So it sits here..... all $15,000 worth of finely-tooled German technology.
>Now with ruined rollers as well.

Heck, this is more capital than I employ to keep myself in business
chopping down trees? Can the rollers be built up again? I would love
to see such a machine in action, it could very well suit the market in
UK.

>
>Living & learning. R&D can be very expensive.

Both of these sentiments I can agree with from experience. Looking
back I should have got a job with an employer, he could then have
funded all the mistakes I made gaining experience, instead of it all
coming from my wallet.

AJH

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From Carefreeland at aol.com Sun Oct 13 17:43:40 2002
From: Carefreeland at aol.com (Carefreeland@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:18 2004
Subject: Fwd: Biodiesel
Message-ID: <82.2293f37a.2adb7a81@aol.com>

<PRE> And I mean it.

To: elk@wananchi.com
Subject: Re: Biodiesel
From: Carefreeland@aol.com
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 02:11:28 EDT
Full-name: Carefreeland
In a message dated 10/13/02 12:48:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time, elk@wananchi.com writes:

> Friend Dan Comments

Short note on recycled cooking oil:

Just heard on the BBC that British traffic police are cracking down on motorists using discarded cooking oil to dilute the fuel in their diesel vehicles- the offence is apparently that they avoid paying automotive fuel taxes- which is perceived as an offence.

The response team that has been formed is nicknamed the 'Frying Squad' and they apparently use their noses to detect the lawbreakers- a car's emissions using a proportion of used cooking oil as fuel smells of fish & chips.

No joke- it's humorous, but a sad commentary on a government's tolerance to fuel substitution.

elk

> I say innocent until proven guilty. If the police think it's cooking oil, they should prove it by cooking THEIR doughnuts in it. Otherwise it's tainted and should be rejected as landfill waste, this allows the persons burning it, to expect tipping fees from restaurants, and pollution credits from the police who STILL burn dirty fossil fuels.
> Then they need to explain what REALLY happened to the road tax dollars that were originally earmarked for roadbuilding. Now that's the thief Sherlock was looking for. Lets stomp our feet till the walls come down!!!
> When it comes to the church of the stoves, I want to be the first to throw out the moneychangers.
Dan Dimiduk USA

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From Carefreeland at aol.com Sun Oct 13 18:05:55 2002
From: Carefreeland at aol.com (Carefreeland@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:18 2004
Subject: Roller briquetter
Message-ID: <51.25c316a0.2adb7fb2@aol.com>

> Dan comments

AJH

> Look at it the other way AJ. Now that you made the mistakes, you get to benefit from the experiance and know the right way. The potential employer is still sending out his crew and making those same mistakes again everyday. Here's to making better mistakes than everyone else everyday, and constantly improving.
Dan Dimiduk

From Carefreeland at aol.com Sun Oct 13 18:21:59 2002
From: Carefreeland at aol.com (Carefreeland@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:18 2004
Subject: Biodiesel
Message-ID: <87.22b5fcaa.2adb8397@aol.com>

In a message dated 10/13/02 12:48:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time, elk@wananchi.com writes:

> Friend Dan Comments

Short note on recycled cooking oil:

Just heard on the BBC that British traffic police are cracking down on motorists using discarded cooking oil to dilute the fuel in their diesel vehicles- the offence is apparently that they avoid paying automotive fuel taxes- which is perceived as an offence.

The response team that has been formed is nicknamed the 'Frying Squad' and they apparently use their noses to detect the lawbreakers- a car's emissions using a proportion of used cooking oil as fuel smells of fish & chips.

No joke- it's humorous, but a sad commentary on a government's tolerance to fuel substitution.

elk

> I say innocent until proven guilty. If the police think it's cooking oil, they should prove it by cooking THEIR doughnuts in it. Otherwise it's tainted and should be rejected as landfill waste, this allows the persons burning it, to expect tipping fees from restaurants, and pollution credits from the police who STILL burn dirty fossil fuels. > Then they need to explain what REALLY happened to the road tax dollars that were originally earmarked for roadbuilding. Now that's the thief Sherlock was looking for. Lets stomp our feet till the walls come down!!!
> When it comes to the church of the stoves, I want to be the first to throw out the moneychangers.
Dan Dimiduk USA

From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Sun Oct 13 18:30:35 2002
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:18 2004
Subject: Biodiesel
In-Reply-To: <1013a11027.110271013a@undp.org>
Message-ID: <20021014022650.GA29664@cybershamanix.com>

On Sun, Oct 13, 2002 at 03:06:21PM -0400, Stephen Gitonga wrote:
> Hello Stovers
>
> At the end of the article, there was this cautionally note in regard
> to taxes.......
>
> "Please Note: In the UK, it is illegal to use untaxed biodiesel in
> your
> engine for road use under Customs and Excise law. For those who wish
> to use biodiesel, it is advised that you contact us for a registered
> list of suppliers and garages in the UK.

Sure am glad I don't live in the UK. Where I live, Wisconsin, there's not
only no tax on biofuels, but small (home) producers are exempt from dumping
regulations for their byproducts (as if anyone actually did want to dump them.)

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

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From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Sun Oct 13 18:53:40 2002
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:18 2004
Subject: Biodiesel
In-Reply-To: <000001c27273$9346ee60$5044083e@42v2501>
Message-ID: <20021014025014.GB29664@cybershamanix.com>

On Sun, Oct 13, 2002 at 09:26:27PM +0100, AJH wrote:
(snip)

> It is possible to use biofuels for transport, their tax rate is
> GBP0.20 less per litre than fossil fuel, this hardly accounts for the
> fact that their fuel value is more than 10% below fossil fuels because
> they are already partially oxygenated.

I'm not sure where you're getting this from, the cetane rating of biodiesel
is higher than dino diesel. Ethanol requires a much higher compression engine
than gasoline, but given the proper engine modifications I would think that it
would have greater fuel value -- it's the fuel of choice for racing, especially
when nitrated, which adds even more oxygen.
But the point is if you are making them yourself, they are more or less free,
so even if they gave considerably less mpg, it would still be worth
it. Especially since both ethanol and biodiesel pollute a great deal less than
dino fuels, and CO2 negative -- great for the environment and great for your
pocketbook, screw the government, they're just another criminal gang anyway.
It's just another means of self-sufficiency, like gardening. Grow your own
food, make your own transport fuel, generate your own heat and lights, all with
out polluting Mother Earth, and quit working at any job where you have to pay
taxes. Sounds like right living to me.

(snip)

> The use of biofuels in UK in this manner is not anything to do with
> fuel substitution but just a way to find a cheaper fuel.

I think you'll find that most biofuelers are also quite enthusiastic about
the environmental benefits as well. But of course we want cheaper fuel, who
doesn't? If they were just after cheaper fuel they'd be running home heating
fuel in their diesels tho -- that isn't taxed like road diesel is it?

> There are a
> number of lawful enterprises making biodiesel by transesterification
> of fats and oils, these range from recycling products which would
> otherwise have a disposal cost to farm diversification schemes to
> enable growth of non food crops on subsidised schemes where local farm
> costs cannot compete with the food we currently depend on imports for.

That's only because they use chemicals. If farmers returned to natural
farming, they could make a living without the subsidies. The Amish do it.

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

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From elk at wananchi.com Sun Oct 13 23:37:15 2002
From: elk at wananchi.com (elk)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:18 2004
Subject: elk's Roller briquetter
In-Reply-To: <005001c26c4b$95f7fec0$2a47fea9@md>
Message-ID: <004f01c27354$232a0a40$2cdafea9@42v2501>

AJH asks about the small Hutt roller briquetter here at Chardust in Nairobi:

>But did it produce a compact briquette? What was the power
>consumption? I take it the briquettes produced were just unacceptable
>to your customers?

It's run by a 5hp motor- I just checked & the rollers are 8 inch dia. The
briquettes were far too flat & scale-like to allow proper ventilation in a
standard charcoal stove- and being so thin, the briquettes were very
fragile. Compaction was good though......... and overall, it worked much as
expected during initial trials.

>Can the rollers be built up again? I would love to see such a machine in
action,
>it could very well suit the market in UK.

A set of new rollers from Hutt cost $6,000.00! The steel is very very hard-
rebuilding would be a long engineering specialised task without guarantee of
a workable final product I reckon.

It wouldn't produce an acceptable BBQ - type product. I think the machine
was designed for producing animal feed- though we'll never know. A 50mm X
25mm by 7mm object isn't really a briquette- it's more of a pellet.

>Looking back I should have got a job with an employer, he could then have
>funded all the mistakes I made gaining experience, instead of it all
>coming from my wallet.

Hear, Hear..... but it wouldn't have had the same poignancy now would it?

elk

--------------------------
Elsen L. Karstad
elk@wananchi.com
www.chardust.com
Nairobi Kenya

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From tombreed at attbi.com Mon Oct 14 06:20:37 2002
From: tombreed at attbi.com (Tom Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:18 2004
Subject: vegetable oil as fuel
In-Reply-To: <009101c269e5$4d09a460$d676f342@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <013301c2738a$e5e2c3c0$a48cfd0c@TOMBREED>

Dear Harmon et al:

I began work on biodiesel from waste oil in 1989 and we tested RTD buses in
1990, finding that a 10% blend with diesel significantly lowered particulate
emissions while 100% removed them altogether.

Unfortunately the USDA wasn't interested in waste oil biodiesel at
potentially $1gal, but preferred to promote virgin oil BD at $2-3/gal.
Politics screws up energy mostly.

Recently a biodiesel pump has opened in SanFrancisco. Read about it at
http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/990823544_6.html

A lot of the most recent discussions here are just the latest rediscovery of
old data and we have better things to do. See http://www.biodiesel.org/.
There is an excellent book, "From the Fryer to the Fuel Tank", by J and K
Tickell (friends of mine who passed through GOlden 5 years ago before
starting a career in BD). Available from them at http://www.veggievan.org/
or from my BEF Press at www.woodgas.com for $25.

If you'd like to make some in your kitchen, see
http://www.woodgas.com/biodies.htm on my website.

I'm planning to operate my new VW Jetta Turbo Diesel on pure biodiesel in
the next few weeks.

Biodiesel is a great fuel, but not as new as some here think.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Harmon Seaver" <hseaver@cybershamanix.com>
To: "Lanny Henson" <lanny@roman.net>
Cc: <Stoves@crest.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 11:39 PM
Subject: Re: vegetable oil as fuel

> On Wed, Oct 02, 2002 at 12:28:26AM -0700, Lanny Henson wrote:
> > SOMETHING DOES not seem right about those numbers.
>
> Usually the Wall Street Journal is pretty accurate. Perhaps you should
do
> some research. You'll find the numbers are good.
>
> > According to my business
> > listings there are 382,956 restaurants in this country.
>
> I'd say that number is pretty low. But it's also not just from
restaurants,
> you have to add in all the schools, colleges, hospitals, and other
institutions
> like prisons, etc.
>
> > Now you said that
> > restaurants waste grease is about 3, 000,000,000 lb per year. That would
> > average 7834 pounds per year or 150 lbs a week! I don't think so.
> > I do think Harmon is closer with his estimate that one or two
restaurants
> > could fuel a car for A WEEK.
>
> No, no -- I can get enough on average from one or two each week to
provide
> *all* the fuel I need. There's no point in arguing about it, plenty of
people
> are doing it already, it's really not debatable.
>
> >
> > > I think that should be gallons, not pounds - that would only be about
> > > 300 million gallons, way too low. Anyway, a very large amount of WVO
> > > is most definitely dumped into landfills in the US, and into sewers.
> >
> > MAYBE IN NEW YORK BUT NOT HERE IN MY AREA. BUT ANYWAY I AM ALL FOR USING
IT
> > AS FUEL.
>
> You can do it anywhere. I sure don't live in a big city.
>
> >
> > > Harmon didn't say he hates the USA, by the way. However, that's the
> > > way most of the people in the world seem to see it, including nearly
> > > all the former US allies (with the exception of Israel and, to a
> > > lesser extent, Australia).
> >
> >
> > WHERE ARE YOU getting you information. Most of the free world knows that
we
> > are doing the right thing.
>
> Oh dear!
>
> > I know that there is a lot of anti American
> > sentiment out there but most of that is due to envy not something we
did.
>
> Hardly. Mostly it's our foreign policy for the last 50 years. I'm always
> reminded of the the book "The Ugly American". It would probably be
interesting
> to reread it at this point.
>
> > Most common sense people out there know that we are the good guys. We
have
> > made great sacrifices to liberate the oppressed and will continue to do
so.
> > The people of Iraq are suffering, Sadam has got to go.
>
> Interesting that we're so concerned about the suffering of people in
Iraq --
> what other countries have we invaded to stop the suffering? North Korea?
Uganda
> under Idi Amin? Rwanda during their recent genocide? Burma? South
> Africa? Hmm. Oh yes, weapons of mass destruction. Gee, I wonder why we
didn't
> invade India and Pakistan when they were developing nukes. Or Russia. Or
China,
> or ...
>
>
> --
> Harmon Seaver
> CyberShamanix
> http://www.cybershamanix.com
>
> -
> Stoves List Archives and Website:
> http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200209/
> http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
> >
> Stoves List Moderators:
> Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
> Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
>
> Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
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>
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> >
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>
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>
>

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From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Mon Oct 14 06:32:03 2002
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:18 2004
Subject: vegetable oil as fuel
In-Reply-To: <009101c269e5$4d09a460$d676f342@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <20021014142837.GA30310@cybershamanix.com>

No, it's not new at all. I bought the Tickell book a few years ago, but
actually, the original design by Diesel was for vegetable oil as fuel. Too bad
they got so far off track, eh?

On Mon, Oct 14, 2002 at 08:06:28AM -0600, Tom Reed wrote:
> Dear Harmon et al:
>
> I began work on biodiesel from waste oil in 1989 and we tested RTD buses in
> 1990, finding that a 10% blend with diesel significantly lowered particulate
> emissions while 100% removed them altogether.
>
> Unfortunately the USDA wasn't interested in waste oil biodiesel at
> potentially $1gal, but preferred to promote virgin oil BD at $2-3/gal.
> Politics screws up energy mostly.
>
> Recently a biodiesel pump has opened in SanFrancisco. Read about it at
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/990823544_6.html
>
> A lot of the most recent discussions here are just the latest rediscovery of
> old data and we have better things to do. See http://www.biodiesel.org/.
> There is an excellent book, "From the Fryer to the Fuel Tank", by J and K
> Tickell (friends of mine who passed through GOlden 5 years ago before
> starting a career in BD). Available from them at http://www.veggievan.org/
> or from my BEF Press at www.woodgas.com for $25.
>
> If you'd like to make some in your kitchen, see
> http://www.woodgas.com/biodies.htm on my website.
>
> I'm planning to operate my new VW Jetta Turbo Diesel on pure biodiesel in
> the next few weeks.
>
> Biodiesel is a great fuel, but not as new as some here think.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Harmon Seaver" <hseaver@cybershamanix.com>
> To: "Lanny Henson" <lanny@roman.net>
> Cc: <Stoves@crest.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 11:39 PM
> Subject: Re: vegetable oil as fuel
>
>
> > On Wed, Oct 02, 2002 at 12:28:26AM -0700, Lanny Henson wrote:
> > > SOMETHING DOES not seem right about those numbers.
> >
> > Usually the Wall Street Journal is pretty accurate. Perhaps you should
> do
> > some research. You'll find the numbers are good.
> >
> > > According to my business
> > > listings there are 382,956 restaurants in this country.
> >
> > I'd say that number is pretty low. But it's also not just from
> restaurants,
> > you have to add in all the schools, colleges, hospitals, and other
> institutions
> > like prisons, etc.
> >
> > > Now you said that
> > > restaurants waste grease is about 3, 000,000,000 lb per year. That would
> > > average 7834 pounds per year or 150 lbs a week! I don't think so.
> > > I do think Harmon is closer with his estimate that one or two
> restaurants
> > > could fuel a car for A WEEK.
> >
> > No, no -- I can get enough on average from one or two each week to
> provide
> > *all* the fuel I need. There's no point in arguing about it, plenty of
> people
> > are doing it already, it's really not debatable.
> >
> > >
> > > > I think that should be gallons, not pounds - that would only be about
> > > > 300 million gallons, way too low. Anyway, a very large amount of WVO
> > > > is most definitely dumped into landfills in the US, and into sewers.
> > >
> > > MAYBE IN NEW YORK BUT NOT HERE IN MY AREA. BUT ANYWAY I AM ALL FOR USING
> IT
> > > AS FUEL.
> >
> > You can do it anywhere. I sure don't live in a big city.
> >
> > >
> > > > Harmon didn't say he hates the USA, by the way. However, that's the
> > > > way most of the people in the world seem to see it, including nearly
> > > > all the former US allies (with the exception of Israel and, to a
> > > > lesser extent, Australia).
> > >
> > >
> > > WHERE ARE YOU getting you information. Most of the free world knows that
> we
> > > are doing the right thing.
> >
> > Oh dear!
> >
> > > I know that there is a lot of anti American
> > > sentiment out there but most of that is due to envy not something we
> did.
> >
> > Hardly. Mostly it's our foreign policy for the last 50 years. I'm always
> > reminded of the the book "The Ugly American". It would probably be
> interesting
> > to reread it at this point.
> >
> > > Most common sense people out there know that we are the good guys. We
> have
> > > made great sacrifices to liberate the oppressed and will continue to do
> so.
> > > The people of Iraq are suffering, Sadam has got to go.
> >
> > Interesting that we're so concerned about the suffering of people in
> Iraq --
> > what other countries have we invaded to stop the suffering? North Korea?
> Uganda
> > under Idi Amin? Rwanda during their recent genocide? Burma? South
> > Africa? Hmm. Oh yes, weapons of mass destruction. Gee, I wonder why we
> didn't
> > invade India and Pakistan when they were developing nukes. Or Russia. Or
> China,
> > or ...
> >
> >
> > --
> > Harmon Seaver
> > CyberShamanix
> > http://www.cybershamanix.com
> >
> > -
> > Stoves List Archives and Website:
> > http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200209/
> > http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
> > >
> > Stoves List Moderators:
> > Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
> > Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
> >
> > Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
> > http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
> > http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
> > http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon
> >
> > List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
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> > >
> > For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
> >
> >http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Chambers/Chambers.htm
> >
> >
>

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

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From ronallarson at qwest.net Mon Oct 14 12:34:27 2002
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:18 2004
Subject: FW: Energy Ladder Hypothesis
Message-ID: <NGBBKDEHILILFNJPHEFIIEMLCCAA.ronallarson@qwest.net>

Muyeye (cc stoves):
I think yours is a very important study. It appears that your urban work
is very different from the "CAMPFIRE" efforts that WWF is justly famous
for - as I found at:
http://www.panda.org/resources/publications/sustainability/indigenous/proj_z
imbabwe.htm

But is there a connection? Is excessive urban fuel wood coming from the
WFF-sponsored nature preserves?

You haven't said anything yet about stove deficiencies, but this list would
like to learn from your study of any special needs for improved stoves in
Zimbabwe. For instance I remember reading somewhere recently that the
cooking of sadza (mealy meal) is especially easy and perhaps more tasty with
solar cookers. I presume this means that lower temperatures and
non-stirring might be good - as is achieved with the highly efficient wood
stove ideas we have heard from the Karves in India - with cooking at the
boiling point.

Anyway, please keep us informed of what you learn and of how we might
further help. Re your last sentence - we like detail.

Ron

-----Original Message-----
From: Muyeye Chambwera [mailto:mchambwera@wwf.org.zw]
Sent: Monday, October 14, 2002 4:07 AM
To: Ron Larson
Subject: RE: Energy Ladder Hypothesis

Dear Ron,

I am pleased by the response from the list, and thanks for your
own response. To answer your question about my need for the
"energy ladder hypothesis", I am doing a study on the demand for
fuelwood in the urban areas of Zimbabwe, and am using what I call
an energy mix model, to estimate the amount of each type of
energy in the household energy consumption bag. The energy
ladder literature will form part of my background literature review,
and would be a natural starting point in developing a formal energy
mix model. Indeed there is very little if any charcoal consumption
in Zimbabwe for common household tasks, but my hypothesis is
that there has been an increase in the consumption of wood fuels
in the past few years in the wake of declining incomes, shortages
of alternative forms of energy such as kerosene etc. I am also
developing a model that links urban fuelwood consumption and
natural woodlands in fuelwood source areas. Of course working for
WWF, my interest is the impact on the environment.

I could give more details at request.

Muyeye

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From crispin at newdawn.sz Mon Oct 14 12:42:05 2002
From: crispin at newdawn.sz (Crispin)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:18 2004
Subject: straw briquettes
In-Reply-To: <003801c26dcc$25d0ebc0$2cdafea9@42v2501>
Message-ID: <004d01c273ae$66d787e0$2a47fea9@md>

Dear Andrew

I heard anecdotal evidence of a very low cost string bound straw 'sausage'
'briquette' being used to cook in Kampala restaurants. It was placed into a
fairly tight fitting metal can and top lit. The diameter was on the order
of 5 inches. It apparenetly burned very cleanly and was the cheapest fuel
around..

Regards
Crispin

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From snkm at btl.net Mon Oct 14 13:25:00 2002
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:18 2004
Subject: straw briquettes
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20021014151639.009b5ce0@wgs1.btl.net>

So -- a "refundable" 28 gauge or so "tin-can" pressure ram charged with
straw would be an ideal fuel pellet.

You forgot to mention length.

Once the pellet is burned out -- the same cylinder could be returned to
supplier -- deposit returned -- and new "charge" introduced into same
cylinder.

The cylinder need not take the high pressure required for charging -- not
important -- it would be fit in a die for that.

you would need a grate on one end (bottom) and a screw pack/plate on the
other end.

I'm thinking of a big fat thin metal Chinese flash-light -- as we all use
here in Belize.

They sell for about $1.10 -- but lot's more in that than the cylinder
described above.

This cylinder charge would then fit tightly into the stove -- right??

Simplicity is wonderful.

This posting is almost an exact rerun of one made to the Gas list a few
years ago. Come to find out -- people are not interested in simple
solutions -- so they all went ape over pelletizers -- etc.

And lost small fortunes along the way --

Well -- maybe now -- with past experience as a guide -- the thought is
worth exploring -- finally??

Or is ram charging a 5 in cylinder with biomass to easy?? To inexpensive??

You know -- villagers in the most remote areas could due this -- they would
not need foreign corporations coming in with zillion dollar biomass
pelletizers.

Always with this hook and line:

We'll come in and set this all up for you -- produce the product -- you pay
us a fair price -- which includes our fair profit -- and oh yes -- we also
get exclusive concession to all your biomass resources. After all -- look
at the captial investment we must make -- one you can never afford to do on
your own -- and nobody will even lend you money to do it!

Think I'm joking??

I get so sick of it --

Want to see how to build a village level screw press that would do this:

http://jatropha.org/expellers/sundhara-1.htm

Ok -- so it is for expressing oils -- but be a little imaginative --

Actually -- I have and even better model in my shop here -- from Sri Lanka.

http://www.foodhints.com/equipmen.html

You'll see a picture there.

Cost was $2000 US -- price -- shipping -- duty -- everything -- into my
yard here.

There are all kinds of farm devices that simply shop up straw so it would
pass easily though such a screw press.

Or -- use a manual -- long handle -- rachet drive (like a car jack) press
-- and use just man-power. Full length straw compacting into that cylinder.

Neither "system" requires major corporation involvement -- and giving
exclusive concessions up -- so probably does not apply for the purposes of
this list??

Come on guys!! Get real!!

"Canned" pellets -- reusable cans -- yes -- it certainly can work.

Say 5 in diameter -- 20 in long??

How much biomass -- how much burn -- for how long?? Before changing "can".

And not just straw -- if you keep the expressor slats -- you have a
combination dewatering device and compactor -- now think of the fuels you
can process!!

Wonder if I chop up sugar cane and feed it through my expressor?? I would
get cane juice and a giant bagasse pellet!

Right now -- I find the coconut "trash" an excellent high protein feed for
pigs and chickens -- etc. Thinking of trying it on Talapia --

Fun -- fun -- fun ---

Peter Singfield
Belize, Central America

At 08:13 PM 10/14/2002 +0200, Crispin wrote:
>Dear Andrew
>
>I heard anecdotal evidence of a very low cost string bound straw 'sausage'
>'briquette' being used to cook in Kampala restaurants. It was placed into a
>fairly tight fitting metal can and top lit. The diameter was on the order
>of 5 inches. It apparenetly burned very cleanly and was the cheapest fuel
>around..
>
>Regards
>Crispin
>
>
>-
>Stoves List Archives and Website:
>http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200209/
>http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
>>
>Stoves List Moderators:
>Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
>Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
>
>Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
>http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
>http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
>http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon
>
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>
>

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From crispin at newdawn.sz Mon Oct 14 14:34:22 2002
From: crispin at newdawn.sz (Crispin)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:18 2004
Subject: Ethiopian Woks
Message-ID: <004701c273d2$9e73a2a0$1246fea9@home>

Dear Stovers, especially those with experience in Ethiopia

Robert van der Plas is here in Swaziland and we managed to get together at
least for one evening, at which we discussed a little about the BTG project
he has going in Addis Ababa. He got to the workshop today with tired kids
in town having looked at animals all day (and it was pretty hot) so we
didn't light anything.

It is clear that people there are not using pots as much, or I could say, as
universally as they do here. They are using something that is about like a
650mm diameter shallow clay wok. This is put on three supports. I would
like to take a stove up with me next week to Addis to see if the clay
tray/wok can be effectively heated by the Shisa Stove, and what local fuels
it burns well.

I will try to meet with his man-on-the-ground who arrives today and we will
make an attempt to do one or two cooking tests during the following week.

What would be useful to know is people's estimate of how the wok can be
supported on the stove. As it is not going to fit inside the 285mm diameter
top of the can, it is going to have to sit on top of a special support.
Pots normally sit inside the heat shield. I safely presume the cooking
surface is not pushed around much in the way that a three-legged pot is when
something is being stirred.

Are these clay woks fragile? Can they sit on three relatively sharp points,
like the ends of three pieces of 12mm round bar? I could make a triangle
with three legs which sit on the 'top deck' of the stove (which is 150mm
below the top lip) and protrude just above the lip. The wok would then be
held up about 20mm above the lip of the 25 litre can. This would allow the
gases to leave the stove at the lip and travel out to the edge of the wok
heating the undersurface.

If the wok is not strong enough to be used when sitting on three points, I
could make a ring about 275mm in diameter and put that onto 3 legs with the
same approximate result in gas flow.

I have, through my wife Margaret who is there already, located a potential
manufacturer of small stoves so I will either leave it with him or else with
the BTG project for them to test in the field. Apparently about 90% of the
population uses wood for fuel. Biomass is used in the form of leaves, wood,
charcoal and dung, all of which can be burned reasonably in a Shisa Stove.

It seems there would be an advantage to using leaves in this stove compared
with using an open fire because it has some measurable air control. The
morning meal is cooked over a low heat and top lighting a pack of leaves
that burn primarily as a gas might prove to be just the ticket.

Suggestions anyone?

Regards
Crispin

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From crispin at newdawn.sz Mon Oct 14 14:53:54 2002
From: crispin at newdawn.sz (Crispin)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:18 2004
Subject: straw briquettes
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20021014151639.009b5ce0@wgs1.btl.net>
Message-ID: <005201c273d5$5a6cc020$1246fea9@home>

Dear Peter

I am afraid I was not clear enough. The unit is not in a can, it is placed
in one to be use. It sounded weird to me at the time but now I realize that
it was mostly gassifying.

The grass is bound into long sausages that are a function of the grass'
height, and then sliced like a sausage into chunks about the size and height
of a canned ham tin, say, 100mm.

It is an uncompressed biomass slug with all the ends of the grass pointing
upwards. This no doubt affects the way it burns.

>you would need a grate on one end (bottom) and a screw pack/plate
>on the other end.

They are only hand tight, like a grass bowl.

>Come to find out -- people are not interested in simple
>solutions -- so they all went ape over pelletizers -- etc.

This was a ridiculously simply solution and I couldn't figure out why it
burned so well as the air supply was minimal, leading me to the conclusion
that is is a grass-gassing cooker. They cooked food with this thing in
standard metal woks.

>is ram charging a 5 in cylinder with biomass to easy??

Yes - the basic idea behing the "American" 4 inch dia x 5 inch tall biomass
briquetted popularized in Kenya.

>Want to see how to build a village level screw press

Apart from the screw cost, piston presses are inherently more efficient so
wherever you have a chance to choose, always pick a piston press. We make a
40mm diameter piston press for sunflower for this reason. Making a tiny
hand screw press puts a lot of strain on the worker to create the pressure
with a screw (through friction). Generating heat at just the right place is
good, but eliminating friction is usually more important than a continuous
feed.

Advancing screw presses (like a threaded bar rather than like a meat
grinder) are also relatively high in friction but their main draw back is
that it takes so long to rewind them. Their great advantage is that they
can hold the pressure at hte end for a long time without effort.

>How much biomass -- how much burn -- for how long??

Difficult to say as I didn't see it. If it was efficient and was cooking,
it would have been about 750 watts or more which would require perhaps 5
grammes a minute of fuel, so for 100gm of grass, it would give 20 minutes of
cooking. I recall them saying it was longer than that.

>Wonder if I chop up sugar cane and feed it through my
>expressor?? I would get cane juice and a giant bagasse pellet!

You would get _some_ juice and some wet bagasse that would not remain as a
pellet unless you could hold it there until it dried out and perhaps
crystalized (using sugar as a binder). I think you would have to add sugar
crystals to the mix before pressing to get that process started.

Jes' tinkerin'
Crispin

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From Carefreeland at aol.com Mon Oct 14 16:04:19 2002
From: Carefreeland at aol.com (Carefreeland@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:18 2004
Subject: salt in the lamp
Message-ID: <195.ef96afa.2adcb4b5@aol.com>

I have succeeded in making a wood sawdust fueled mantle lamp gasifier using
an ordinary Coleman mantle. It puts out the light of 60 to 100 watt light
bulb. Would anyone have a use for sugh a device?

A. Das Original Sources/Biomass Energy Foundation
Box 7137, Boulder, CO 80306 USA
das@eagle-access.net
303-237-3579

> Yes, I would use such a devise up at the farm in the cold evenings, to stoke the fires in my greenhouse woodstoves. How long does it burn on a charge? An hour or so would be perfect. Is the flame controllable from bright to dim?
> I produce a lot of course chain saw dust cutting firewood. Usually I just shovel it into the burner a little at a time creating smoke before it burns. On the other hand, I use a propane lantern on low, or a small kerosene hurricane lantern burning bright to find my wood and split it by after dark.
>If the lamp is efficient on Btu conversion, it would be useful even if it wasn't efficient on light production, as the almost smokeless heat would be welcome. A little C02 is also good for the plants.
> How much would you have to charge for a well made one?
Daniel Dimiduk

From Carefreeland at aol.com Mon Oct 14 16:49:30 2002
From: Carefreeland at aol.com (Carefreeland@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:18 2004
Subject: Fwd: salt in the lamp
Message-ID: <ac.2ee8faa2.2adcbf65@aol.com>

Stovers,
I know that chlorine in many salt compounds intensifies many colored flames in pyrotechnics. The common ones are strontium chloride for red flames, barium chloride and copper chloride for green and blue, zink chloride for blue-green, potassium chloride for a pink/purple, and sodium chloride for yellow.
Potassium perchlorate is also used professionally, but may be prohibitively more unstable. Potassium chlorate can also explode violently when mixed with many things like sulfur or charcoal, requiring only the least friction or static for ignition- be careful and avoid experimenting with any of these compounds. These oxidents can be used with metal flakes, powders, and salts to intensify color imparted by the metal burning.
I have a home made formula for a brilliant yellow flare which utilised table salt with a form of black powder. I may have also used sodium nitrate in it as well in many experiments.
I would think that a glowing oxide of magnesium, titanium, or aluminum might yield a bright flame under certain conditions.
Anybody know what the compound in a gas mantle is? Phosphorus?
Dan Dimiduk

To: das@eagle-access.net
Subject: Re: salt in the lamp
From: Carefreeland@aol.com
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 20:23:13 EDT
Full-name: Carefreeland

Stovers,
I know that chlorine in many salt compounds intensifies many colored
flames in pyrotechnics. The common ones are strontium chloride for red
flames, barium chloride and copper chloride for green and blue, zink chloride
for blue-green, potassium chloride for a pink/purple, and sodium chloride for
yellow.
Potassium perchlorate is also used professionally, but may be
prohibitively more unstable. Potassium chlorate can also explode violently
when mixed with many things like sulfur or charcoal, requiring only the least
friction or static for ignition- be careful and avoid experimenting with any
of these compounds. These oxidents can be used with metal flakes, powders,
and salts to intensify color imparted by the metal burning.
I have a home made formula for a brilliant yellow flare which utilised
table salt with a form of black powder. I may have also used sodium nitrate
in it as well in many experiments.
I would think that a glowing oxide of magnesium, titanium, or aluminum
might yield a bright flame under certain conditions.
Anybody know what the compound in a gas mantle is? Phosphorus?
Dan Dimiduk

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From ronallarson at qwest.net Mon Oct 14 19:57:18 2002
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:18 2004
Subject: Ethiopian Woks
In-Reply-To: <004701c273d2$9e73a2a0$1246fea9@home>
Message-ID: <NGBBKDEHILILFNJPHEFIKENBCCAA.ronallarson@qwest.net>

Crispin, Margaret, Stovers, Bob van Buskirk

A bit more than a year ago, I sent a message to the list related to your
query - as Dan Kammen was looking for good stoves research.
(http://www.repp.org/discussion/stoves/200109/msg00079.html)

I referenced a web site maintained by a US researcher - who I think is not
a member of this list - Bob van Buskirk - who maintains the following web
site - which I strongly recommend before your trip:

http://www.punchdown.org/rvb/mogogo/

(I recommend this to everyone trying to heat big flat surfaces.)

Some more comments below.

-----Original Message-----
From: Crispin [mailto:crispin@newdawn.sz]
Sent: Monday, October 14, 2002 4:39 PM
To: Stoves; Margaret Pemberton-Pigott
Subject: Ethiopian Woks

Dear Stovers, especially those with experience in Ethiopia

(RWL1) I have spent about 8-10 months of my life in Ethiopia - a part on
stoves. I urge you to also think about Eritrea for your research (which is
where Bob's work took place) - as they (or at least those in the north)
speak the same language - Tigrigna.

(RWL2): I question the term "shallow" - I only remember flat units -
called a mogogo. But the 65 cm size and clay (low fired) material you
mention are the same. van Buskirk describes how inefficient these are for
cooking. A wok shape would probably not work - as the enjira cooked on the
mogogo starts off with a "heavy cream" consistency. - and the preference is
strongly for enjira of uniform thickness.

I will try to meet with his man-on-the-ground who arrives today and we will
make an attempt to do one or two cooking tests during the following week.

(RWL3): My recollection is that the historic method was three stones -
with wood coming in from three directions in between. But all the improved
designs seem to be ringed with bricks (hopefully as insulating as possible -
to keep the breezes out and heat in).
I started my work on the charcoal-making design as you have suggested -
with a 30 cm diameter. It was awful - very hot in the center and not hot
enough on the outside. But when I shifted to a conical flame section from
the 30 cm fuel chamber - up to the 65 cm diameter mogogo, the temperature
turned out to be quite uniform. I tried many means of supporting the mogogo
in the conical piece (made out of a semicircular - the final top
circumference being the same as the initial half-circumference) - the bottom
circumference being 30*pi cm. (the top-lit fuel can come right up to this
secondary air inlet level) One that seemed to work moderately well was
using steel wool pads - that had a nice cushioning effect and could
withstand the hot exhaust gases. One big problem was making sure that the
mogogo stays level - so that the "heavy cream" batter doesn't run off one
side of the mogogo. Cooking is very rapid - I recall about 2 minutes per
enjira. You don't see any pushing around. The enjira is pretty delicate.
The secret of success is getting the mogogo well oiled/seasoned.

(RWL4): The mogogos are not so much fragile (being about 3 cm thick) - but
they don't last very long - mostly due to thermal stresses I suppose. They
are for sale in every marketplace - I think only costing a $ or $2. From my
experience, the geometry you describe is never seen and will not give a
sufficiently uniform surface temperature, as I said earlier. In the
traditional approach, the cook maintains surface uniformity by moving new
sticks of flaming wood (or moves the charcoal from earlier sticks) to below
that part of the mogogo that seemed coolest when cooking the previous
enjira. With your design (and mine) you have to have it right the first
time (although they can probably start pouring the batter first where the
mogogo is coolest).

If the wok is not strong enough to be used when sitting on three points, I
could make a ring about 275mm in diameter and put that onto 3 legs with the
same approximate result in gas flow.

(RWL5a): I think you will find that you can use a three point support -
but I don't believe support will be the issue. van Buskirk's paper
describes the much greater efficiency possible with a metal rather than clay
mogogo. Then there is no question of lifetime - and that is the route I
would go - especially if you can get the right surface treatment.
(RWL5b): Concerning thermal uniformity, Rogerio Miranda has described
putting an extra thickness of metal where the cooking surface was hottest.
This might help somewhat, but I still predict a need to have something like
the conical gas combustion section I described above. Gas flow modelers
could probably give us a better shape - but I was not unhappy with the cone.

Suggestions anyone?

Regards
Crispin

(RWL6) There is nothing wrong with the circular shaped enjira - but the
Ethiopians and Eritreans never serve it that way. Rather they cut it into
strips of about 10-12 cm width which are served rolled up into a fat cigar
shape - of diameter maybe 4-5 cm. I have often wondered if it wouldn't be
culturally permissible to cook something more like that shape - as long as
you had some cooking advantage that way (and I don't off-hand know of one -
unless you start talking about a solar device). The electric mogogos one
can buy are usually of smaller diameter - maybe 45-50 cm (and I have seen
smaller). These come with a traditional clay material or steel or aluminum.
(RWL7): To keep the heat losses down and keep the cooking humidity in the
right level, the enjira cooks for about half of the time under a "hood" -
made from dung by local specialists. The electrics always have an aluminum
"hood" - so I would plan that in advance.
(RWL8): What we need also is something like an automatic controller - that
turns down the heat during the "lengthy" time that the hood is off and the
enjira is being "pulled" from the mogogo skillet and the time necessary to
reload it for another enjira. These enjira are cooked one at a time - with
a typical batch taking more than an hour or even two (every several days)
depending on the family size. In a factory setting, I think one cook can
keep two or even three mogogos going at one time - but one family (wife)
never does that I think. This form of heat control is of course not
possible with clay because of the clay's poor thermal conductivity - but it
might make sense with a thin metal mogogo. But there may be a possible way
to cook enjira something like we cook pizzas - by sliding a thin round (or
square) plate with the "wet" enjira "cream" into and out of (when ready) a
more thermally insulating "oven". Now we are talking real cultural change -
and you won't have time to do that while in Addis.
(RWL9): There is an excellent private (formerly government-sponsored)
stove development group out near the airport. I urge you to look at these
Addis Ababa stove expertise leads early this year at:
http://www.repp.org/discussion/stoves/200201/msg00115.html, where there are
phone numbers, etc.
(RWL10): I certainly like the idea of using leaves, etc. I believe the
can of straw you mentioned today can be further developed - but you better
plan on a cooking time of more than an hour - and probably well over 5 kW -
not easy to do without some densification.
I do believe that your design with air control, preheating primary and
secondary air, etc could help a lot on a most difficult national cooking
problem.
(RWL11): When I first showed something to a local leader in Tigray - and
she could see that it burned pretty cleanly - she asked for one that could
fold up - as space is at a premium inside most homes. (Much cooking is
outside - but also often inside.) Then I started hanging the cone and
mogogo from a tripod arrangement - but I didn't solve this space-saving,
folding problem as I ran out of time.

Best of luck - anxious to hear what happens. Say hello to Margaret and hope
you have a good time. Let me know if you need any assistance in Addis - as
I have some other friends who I believe would want to help. Ron

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From snkm at btl.net Mon Oct 14 20:03:28 2002
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:19 2004
Subject: straw briquettes -- steel inclosed
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20021014212131.00971d60@wgs1.btl.net>

Dear Crispin;

>Dear Peter
>
>I am afraid I was not clear enough. The unit is not in a can, it is placed
>in one to be use. It sounded weird to me at the time but now I realize that
>it was mostly gassifying.
>
>The grass is bound into long sausages that are a function of the grass'
>height, and then sliced like a sausage into chunks about the size and height
>of a canned ham tin, say, 100mm.

No -- I understood the concept immediatly! Just suggest precharging that
"can" -- not with rope -- but with fibrous biomass -- and under greater
pressure -- to increase fuel density.

I was probably putting the horse ahead of the cart.

The technical problem spinning in my mind was how to turn straw into a
compact package for stove fuel.

I was thinking along the lines of a hay bailer -- into a "can" -- that
would be a "batch" cartridge of biomass to fuel a good stove.

What size can would it take to hold the equivalent amount of btu 's -- in
straw -- as those popular small butane "cans"??

I "guessed" -- 5 in diameter by 20 in length.

The list had been discussing pelletizing -- which is a huge mechanical
process. Expensive in equipments and expensive in processing energy.

I suggested recycling these cans -- in the same manner empty soft-drink
bottles are (at least they still are here in Belize) by charging a deposit
fee -- refundable when the container is returned -- to a central
processing plant -- to be cleaned of ash/char -- then recharged with more
straw.

I suggested a few methods of charging said cannisters with hay (oops --
straw) -- one by using a slightly modified screw press for oil extraction
-- the other a linear ram press -- mechanically actuated by an
exceptionally long lever on a ratchet mechanism -- the same as the old
style car jacks.

The screw oil press I presently have does not have threading running full
length -- only 3 complete threads -- to "push" the charge into the pressure
extraction area.

Just like a hand operated grain grinder (I use one of those a lot in day to
day food requirements here -- corn and corn tortilla) uses a few thread
turns to push with incredible pressure into the grinding plates.

Etc -- etc --

Now -- using the interesting info you supplied:

>Difficult to say as I didn't see it. If it was efficient and was cooking,
>it would have been about 750 watts or more which would require perhaps 5
>grammes a minute of fuel, so for 100gm of grass, it would give 20 minutes of
>cooking. I recall them saying it was longer than that.

I would expect the 5 in dia by 20 in length cylinder -- 6.4 liters capacity
-- to contain at least two kilo of compressed straw --

So that cylinder "charge" should fire the stove at 750 watts for 400
minutes -- 6.6 hours!!

Not that bad a method to move straw type biomass fuels around??

But the "bug" is probably that straw compressed to that state would not
allow a top burn through the charge -- would it? (or even a bottom burn)

So flush that thought --

No binder is required as it takes a certain period of time for the straw to
"expand" after compressing -- and you screw the top on the cylinder before
it has a chance to get "moving" -- holding it together.

Wonder if a perforated tube -- of correct diameter -- running top to bottom
down the center of this charge -- would allow top burning/gasifying??

Easy to charge such a cylinder using a screw press. (As a central cavity is
no problem to extrude "around")

Basically -- a metal enclosed pellet of rather large size with a hole down
through the center.

One might be even able to choke/throttle it off -- and then restart -- for
cooking more than one time on the same charge??

I have some fine short lengths of "tubing" laying around -- cast iron
piston sleeves from a cummins "903" rebuild -- I might just play around
further in real time.

The fiber biomass at hand in my yard presently is coconut husks -- lots of
them.

One would not need grate at top and bottom -- just a central pipe -- of
proper (as in found by experimentation) diameter -- well drilled with many
tiny holes -- running top to bottom -- two steel plates fitted at either end.

I would start with a central cavity one third or more of total diameter.
Lots of burning area exposed -- and fuel not so thick a layer to choke out
-- as in air not reaching the back part.

Ignition could be accomplished by "priming" with a little kerosene??

The product would be producer gas --

Actually -- this would work much better with a bottom "burn" --- but down
draft.

Ya -- this might be worth the small effort to try!

A small -- steel pellet -- gasifier for fibrous biomasses!

To be run in "batch-mode" ---

No need to worry about ash and char -- that would be looked after at the
recycling plant.

Peter

At 12:58 AM 10/15/2002 +0200, Crispin wrote:
>Dear Peter
>
>I am afraid I was not clear enough. The unit is not in a can, it is placed
>in one to be use. It sounded weird to me at the time but now I realize that
>it was mostly gassifying.
>
>The grass is bound into long sausages that are a function of the grass'
>height, and then sliced like a sausage into chunks about the size and height
>of a canned ham tin, say, 100mm.
>
>It is an uncompressed biomass slug with all the ends of the grass pointing
>upwards. This no doubt affects the way it burns.
>
>>you would need a grate on one end (bottom) and a screw pack/plate
>>on the other end.
>
>They are only hand tight, like a grass bowl.
>
>>Come to find out -- people are not interested in simple
>>solutions -- so they all went ape over pelletizers -- etc.
>
>This was a ridiculously simply solution and I couldn't figure out why it
>burned so well as the air supply was minimal, leading me to the conclusion
>that is is a grass-gassing cooker. They cooked food with this thing in
>standard metal woks.
>
>>is ram charging a 5 in cylinder with biomass to easy??
>
>Yes - the basic idea behing the "American" 4 inch dia x 5 inch tall biomass
>briquetted popularized in Kenya.
>
>>Want to see how to build a village level screw press
>
>Apart from the screw cost, piston presses are inherently more efficient so
>wherever you have a chance to choose, always pick a piston press. We make a
>40mm diameter piston press for sunflower for this reason. Making a tiny
>hand screw press puts a lot of strain on the worker to create the pressure
>with a screw (through friction). Generating heat at just the right place is
>good, but eliminating friction is usually more important than a continuous
>feed.
>
>Advancing screw presses (like a threaded bar rather than like a meat
>grinder) are also relatively high in friction but their main draw back is
>that it takes so long to rewind them. Their great advantage is that they
>can hold the pressure at hte end for a long time without effort.
>
>>How much biomass -- how much burn -- for how long??
>
>Difficult to say as I didn't see it. If it was efficient and was cooking,
>it would have been about 750 watts or more which would require perhaps 5
>grammes a minute of fuel, so for 100gm of grass, it would give 20 minutes of
>cooking. I recall them saying it was longer than that.
>
>>Wonder if I chop up sugar cane and feed it through my
>>expressor?? I would get cane juice and a giant bagasse pellet!
>
>You would get _some_ juice and some wet bagasse that would not remain as a
>pellet unless you could hold it there until it dried out and perhaps
>crystalized (using sugar as a binder). I think you would have to add sugar
>crystals to the mix before pressing to get that process started.
>
>Jes' tinkerin'
>Crispin
>
>
>-
>Stoves List Archives and Website:
>http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200209/
>http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
>>
>Stoves List Moderators:
>Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
>Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
>
>Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
>http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
>http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
>http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon
>
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>>
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>>http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Chambers/Chambers.htm
>
>

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From adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in Mon Oct 14 22:19:52 2002
From: adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in (A.D. Karve)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:19 2004
Subject: machine for briquette making
Message-ID: <000001c27416$50b16220$4b9ec7cb@adkarvepn2.vsnl.net.in>

We sent a representative of ours with charred sugarcane leaves
to a factory that makes urea pellets by using a double
roller machine. The rollers have dimples, and the process
compacts the urea to reduce its water solubility. The pellets are
promoted as a slow release formulation. This machine however failed to form
pellets from the charred sugarcane leaves. They tried various binders and
different moisture levels. The main difficulty was, that the char
would not slide downwards from the hopper to the rollers by natural
gravity. Even stoking it manually did not work. Whenever the
hopper was loaded with char, the rollers would just rotate empty.
A.D.Karve

From yark at u.washington.edu Mon Oct 14 23:24:19 2002
From: yark at u.washington.edu (Tami Bond)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:19 2004
Subject: Briquette emissions
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.4.44.0210150010350.76148-100000@homer29.u.washington.edu>

Dear Stovers,

Yes I have a one-track mind-- emissions emissions emissions.

I have just been looking at Kim Oanh's recent paper (Env.Sci.Tech 36,p
833-839, 2002). In this study, measured PM ems from sawdust brqiuette were
not a lot different-- higher in fact-- than those from a traditional wood
stove. The sawdust briquettes were done with no binder. CO is not
reported.

I'd thought that briquetting would produce lower emissions just because my
coal briquettes were so low. (And in fact, Kim's earlier 1999 paper did
show lower emissions from coal-based briquettes.) I thought this had
something to do with the binder, based on a (possibly irrelevant) report I
dug up from the USGS web site; it also has something to do with the low
volatile content of the coals used in these holey briquettes.

BUT, I ask now, IF densification of biomass does not involve heating and
driving off volatile matter, *does* it reduce emissions at the point of
cooking? What do you observe?

thanks!
Tami

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From Carl.Carley at eml.ericsson.se Mon Oct 14 23:30:32 2002
From: Carl.Carley at eml.ericsson.se (Carl Carley (EMP))
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:19 2004
Subject: straw briquettes -- steel inclosed
Message-ID: <E3117AE4EC45D511BEC10002A55CB09CFD9846@eukbant102.uk.eu.ericsson.se>

The screw oil press I presently have does not have threading running full
length -- only 3 complete threads -- to "push" the charge into the pressure
extraction area.

Peter,
I keep on harping on about fly presses, if the can was placed in a die that supported the can from the sides and the bottom and punch was designed to look like a spike or even several spikes, one big swing and whammy ! your charge now has one or more tapering holes in it. Get the rhythm going and the press swings back on its own, easy!

Carl
UK

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From Carl.Carley at eml.ericsson.se Tue Oct 15 02:44:06 2002
From: Carl.Carley at eml.ericsson.se (Carl Carley (EMP))
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:19 2004
Subject: Biodiesel
Message-ID: <E3117AE4EC45D511BEC10002A55CB09CFD984B@eukbant102.uk.eu.ericsson.se>

So if I build a gasifier to run my IC engine and collect dead wood from the side of the road, will the UK government tax me I wonder?
I suppose they'd call on 'special branch' ha ha ha !!

Carl

-----Original Message-----
From: elk [mailto:elk@wananchi.com]
Sent: 12 October 2002 06:49
To: stoves@crest.org
Subject: Biodiesel

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From jeff.forssell at cfl.se Tue Oct 15 03:07:04 2002
From: jeff.forssell at cfl.se (Jeff Forssell)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:19 2004
Subject: salt in the lamp - Mantles contain THorium _ note radioactive!
Message-ID: <A11397FBE741D411B2E700D0B74770E9B5D59C@tyr.ssvh.se>

<A
href="http://home.bip.net/jeff.forssell/karabai.htm">A little quote from my
hompage page on pressure lamps
http://home.bip.net/jeff.forssell/karabai.htm
 The kerosene
pressure lamp gets its white flame in another way. It has a very efficient way
of burning the kerosene. The flame of the lamp heats the pipe which supplies the
kerosene to the flame and also the pipe which carries the mixture of gas and
air. The kerosene becomes so hot that it becomes a gas which burns easily with
the hot air. The hot flame burns in the "mantle" which is like a small sock made
of asbestos. Asbestos is a mineral (= from stone) fiber that can stand high
temperatures. But after being heated it is easily broken by touching or shaking.
The mantle is coated with an element called Thorium. This substance when heated
enough gives out lots of radiation in the form of visible light. An ordinary
kerosene lamp will send out much of its energy in the form of invisible
infra-red (or heat) waves. So a lot of the energy is lost as heat in an ordinary
kerosene lamp. The substance
Thorium is quite radioactive, so you should avoid breathing in the smoke which
is given off the first time you light the mantle. The ashes of a broken mantle
should be disposed of so no one will eat or breathe them.
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid">
-----Original Message-----From: Carefreeland@aol.com
[mailto:Carefreeland@aol.com]Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 2:46
AMTo: stoves@crest.orgSubject: Fwd: salt in the
lampIn a message
dated 10/14/02 8:23:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Carefreeland writes:
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
TYPE="CITE"> Anybody know
what the compound in a gas mantle is? Phosphorus?
Dan Dimiduk

From pverhaart at optusnet.com.au Tue Oct 15 03:13:50 2002
From: pverhaart at optusnet.com.au (Peter Verhaart)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:19 2004
Subject: vegetable oil as fuel
In-Reply-To: <013301c2738a$e5e2c3c0$a48cfd0c@TOMBREED>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20021015203611.00a8dc60@localhost>

At 09:28 14/10/02 -0500, you wrote:
> No, it's not new at all. I bought the Tickell book a few years ago, but
>actually, the original design by Diesel was for vegetable oil as fuel. Too bad
>they got so far off track, eh?

It was not. Rudolf proposed injecting powdered coal in the cylinder after
the compression stroke had compressed the air to 1000 bar. The coal had to
be injected at such a rate that the temperature in the cylinder remained
constant while doing the first part of the power downstroke. The next part
of the downstroke was to be isentropic and the last part isothermal through
injection of water.

One by one his asperations succumbed to reality. The compression pressure
of 1000 bar was impossible to achieve, long before, the lubricating oil
would burn up. Injecting powdered coal proved impossible, so he turned to
kerosene.

Later injection of non distillable liquid fuels proved to be a good way to
use them in IC engines.

The great achievement was that for the first time an engine had been
designed from purely thermodynamic principles.

Peter Verhaart

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From pverhaart at optusnet.com.au Tue Oct 15 03:15:26 2002
From: pverhaart at optusnet.com.au (Peter Verhaart)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:19 2004
Subject: Fwd: salt in the lamp
In-Reply-To: <ac.2ee8faa2.2adcbf65@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20021015210711.00a93ec0@localhost>

At 20:46 14/10/02 -0400, you wrote:
In a
message dated 10/14/02 8:23:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Carefreeland
writes:

Stovers,
I know that chlorine in many salt
compounds intensifies many colored flames in pyrotechnics. The common
ones are strontium chloride for red flames, barium chloride and copper
chloride for green and blue, zink chloride for blue-green, potassium
chloride for a pink/purple, and sodium chloride for yellow.
Potassium perchlorate is also used
professionally, but may be prohibitively more unstable. Potassium
chlorate can also explode violently when mixed with many things like
sulfur or charcoal, requiring only the least friction or static for
ignition- be careful and avoid experimenting with any of these compounds.
These oxidents can be used with metal flakes, powders, and salts to
intensify color imparted by the metal burning.
I have a home made formula for a
brilliant yellow flare which utilised table salt with a form of black
powder. I may have also used sodium nitrate in it as well in many
experiments.
I would think that a glowing oxide
of magnesium, titanium, or aluminum might yield a bright flame under
certain conditions.
Anybody know what the compound in a
gas mantle is? Phosphorus?
Dan Dimiduk

The compound in gas mantles. Long ago I read in high school chemistry
books that gas mantles were cotton soaked in a mixture of Cerium and
Thorium nitrates. When the gas mantle is fired for the first time the
cotton burns up and the nitrates lend a helping hand, after which they
turn into oxides with a high melting point.
Peter Verhaart

From pverhaart at optusnet.com.au Tue Oct 15 03:51:43 2002
From: pverhaart at optusnet.com.au (Peter Verhaart)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:19 2004
Subject: Briquette emissions
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A41.4.44.0210150010350.76148-100000@homer29.u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20021015214526.00a931d0@localhost>

At 00:21 15/10/02 -0700, you wrote:

>Dear Stovers,
>
>Yes I have a one-track mind-- emissions emissions emissions.
>
>
>BUT, I ask now, IF densification of biomass does not involve heating and
>driving off volatile matter, *does* it reduce emissions at the point of
>cooking? What do you observe?
>
>thanks!
>Tami

Having fuel in uniform size and uniform composition is the best guarantee
that in a stove DEVELOPED FOR THIS FUEL, it would burn cleanly. Personally
I would like to have densified biomass briquettes for my downdraft
barbecue. The dimensions (of the briquettes) 20 * 40 mm or thereabouts.

Peter Verhaart

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From keith at journeytoforever.org Tue Oct 15 04:23:01 2002
From: keith at journeytoforever.org (Keith Addison)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:19 2004
Subject: vegetable oil as fuel
In-Reply-To: <013301c2738a$e5e2c3c0$a48cfd0c@TOMBREED>
Message-ID: <v04210103b9d1b507941d@[192.168.0.2]>

>At 09:28 14/10/02 -0500, you wrote:
>> No, it's not new at all. I bought the Tickell book a few years ago, but
>>actually, the original design by Diesel was for vegetable oil as
>>fuel. Too bad
>>they got so far off track, eh?
>
>
>It was not. Rudolf proposed injecting powdered coal in the cylinder
>after the compression stroke had compressed the air to 1000 bar. The
>coal had to be injected at such a rate that the temperature in the
>cylinder remained constant while doing the first part of the power
>downstroke. The next part of the downstroke was to be isentropic and
>the last part isothermal through injection of water.
>
>One by one his asperations succumbed to reality. The compression
>pressure of 1000 bar was impossible to achieve, long before, the
>lubricating oil would burn up. Injecting powdered coal proved
>impossible, so he turned to kerosene.
>
>Later injection of non distillable liquid fuels proved to be a good
>way to use them in IC engines.
>
>The great achievement was that for the first time an engine had been
>designed from purely thermodynamic principles.
>
>Peter Verhaart

It wasn't kerosene, it was vegetable oil. His first oils were peanut
oil and hemp oil. The engine he demonstrated at the world exhibition
in Paris in 1900 ran on straight peanut oil.

Transesterification dates back to the 19th century, and biodiesel was
used in heavy industrial equipment in South Africa between the world
wars.

Josh Tickell's book is a bit out of date now, the technology
available to small-scale, on-farm and home brewers has developed
quite a lot in the last three years.

Best

Keith Addison
Journey to Forever
http://journeytoforever.org/

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From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Tue Oct 15 05:20:46 2002
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:19 2004
Subject: Biodiesel
In-Reply-To: <E3117AE4EC45D511BEC10002A55CB09CFD984B@eukbant102.uk.eu.ericsson.se>
Message-ID: <20021015131716.GB31116@cybershamanix.com>

The whole idea of taxing home made biofuels is just that ridiculous. I wonder
when they'll start trying to tax the vegetables people grow in their gardens, or
the firewood they cut? If I build a chair will I have to pay a tax on it? If I
build a windmill to make electricity should I have to pay a tax on that energy?
Also, for those who claim that there *is* a federal tax on biofuels, what is
it? The US fed gasoline tax is 18.4 cents per gallon (although ethanol blended
gasoline is only 13 cents), the fed diesel tax is 24.4 cents per gallon -- what
is the exact tax on biodiesel and on ethanol, and on hydrogen?

On Tue, Oct 15, 2002 at 12:40:57PM +0200, Carl Carley (EMP) wrote:
> So if I build a gasifier to run my IC engine and collect dead wood from the side of the road, will the UK government tax me I wonder?
> I suppose they'd call on 'special branch' ha ha ha !!
>
> Carl
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: elk [mailto:elk@wananchi.com]
> Sent: 12 October 2002 06:49
> To: stoves@crest.org
> Subject: Biodiesel
>
>
> Short note on recycled cooking oil:
>
> Just heard on the BBC that British traffic police are cracking down on motorists using discarded cooking oil to dilute the fuel in their diesel vehicles- the offence is apparently that they avoid paying automotive fuel taxes- which is perceived as an offence.
>
> The response team that has been formed is nicknamed the 'Frying Squad' and they apparently use their noses to detect the lawbreakers- a car's emissions using a proportion of used cooking oil as fuel smells of fish & chips.
>
> No joke- it's humorous, but a sad commentary on a government's tolerance to fuel substitution.
>
> elk
>
>
>
> -
> Stoves List Archives and Website:
> http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200209/
> http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
> >
> Stoves List Moderators:
> Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
> Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
>
> Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon
>
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> >
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--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

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From kchisholm at ca.inter.net Tue Oct 15 05:22:51 2002
From: kchisholm at ca.inter.net (Kevin Chisholm)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:19 2004
Subject: straw briquettes -- steel inclosed
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20021014212131.00971d60@wgs1.btl.net>
Message-ID: <3DAC15DC.DCA27DD6@ca.inter.net>

Dear Peter

To elaborate further on your idea....

What about if you had a central "retracting pipe" that
provided air for burning?

More specifically... imagine a 6" steel cylinder, 20"
long, with a 1" steel pipe in the middle. The straw, or
any other biomass, would be tightly packed in the
annular space.

To burn the biomass, a fire would be set at the
intended "burn face." Air would be supplied through the
steel pipe. As the fire burned, the "burn face" would
advance behind the air inlet point, and the fire would
tend to go out. At this point the steel puipe could e
pulled back a few inches, enabling the air to easily
access teh burn face.

The system could probably be operated in either the
gasifying mode, OR in the "full combustion mode",
depending on the rate of air supply, the dryness of the
fuel, and the specifics of air introduction.

This system could also be used with no central steel
pipe..... use the pipe only for initial forming.
Obviously, there would have to be a fuel stability to
permit removal of the "form pipe" entirely.

Please keep us posted on your results.

Kevin Chisholm

Peter Singfield wrote:
>
> Dear Crispin;
>
> >Dear Peter
> >
> >I am afraid I was not clear enough. The unit is not in a can, it is placed
> >in one to be use. It sounded weird to me at the time but now I realize that
> >it was mostly gassifying.
> >
> >The grass is bound into long sausages that are a function of the grass'
> >height, and then sliced like a sausage into chunks about the size and height
> >of a canned ham tin, say, 100mm.
>
> No -- I understood the concept immediatly! Just suggest precharging that
> "can" -- not with rope -- but with fibrous biomass -- and under greater
> pressure -- to increase fuel density.
>
> I was probably putting the horse ahead of the cart.
>
> The technical problem spinning in my mind was how to turn straw into a
> compact package for stove fuel.
>
> I was thinking along the lines of a hay bailer -- into a "can" -- that
> would be a "batch" cartridge of biomass to fuel a good stove.
>
> What size can would it take to hold the equivalent amount of btu 's -- in
> straw -- as those popular small butane "cans"??
>
> I "guessed" -- 5 in diameter by 20 in length.
>
> The list had been discussing pelletizing -- which is a huge mechanical
> process. Expensive in equipments and expensive in processing energy.
>
> I suggested recycling these cans -- in the same manner empty soft-drink
> bottles are (at least they still are here in Belize) by charging a deposit
> fee -- refundable when the container is returned -- to a central
> processing plant -- to be cleaned of ash/char -- then recharged with more
> straw.
>
> I suggested a few methods of charging said cannisters with hay (oops --
> straw) -- one by using a slightly modified screw press for oil extraction
> -- the other a linear ram press -- mechanically actuated by an
> exceptionally long lever on a ratchet mechanism -- the same as the old
> style car jacks.
>
> The screw oil press I presently have does not have threading running full
> length -- only 3 complete threads -- to "push" the charge into the pressure
> extraction area.
>
> Just like a hand operated grain grinder (I use one of those a lot in day to
> day food requirements here -- corn and corn tortilla) uses a few thread
> turns to push with incredible pressure into the grinding plates.
>
> Etc -- etc --
>
> Now -- using the interesting info you supplied:
>
> >Difficult to say as I didn't see it. If it was efficient and was cooking,
> >it would have been about 750 watts or more which would require perhaps 5
> >grammes a minute of fuel, so for 100gm of grass, it would give 20 minutes of
> >cooking. I recall them saying it was longer than that.
>
> I would expect the 5 in dia by 20 in length cylinder -- 6.4 liters capacity
> -- to contain at least two kilo of compressed straw --
>
> So that cylinder "charge" should fire the stove at 750 watts for 400
> minutes -- 6.6 hours!!
>
> Not that bad a method to move straw type biomass fuels around??
>
> But the "bug" is probably that straw compressed to that state would not
> allow a top burn through the charge -- would it? (or even a bottom burn)
>
> So flush that thought --
>
> No binder is required as it takes a certain period of time for the straw to
> "expand" after compressing -- and you screw the top on the cylinder before
> it has a chance to get "moving" -- holding it together.
>
> Wonder if a perforated tube -- of correct diameter -- running top to bottom
> down the center of this charge -- would allow top burning/gasifying??
>
> Easy to charge such a cylinder using a screw press. (As a central cavity is
> no problem to extrude "around")
>
> Basically -- a metal enclosed pellet of rather large size with a hole down
> through the center.
>
> One might be even able to choke/throttle it off -- and then restart -- for
> cooking more than one time on the same charge??
>
> I have some fine short lengths of "tubing" laying around -- cast iron
> piston sleeves from a cummins "903" rebuild -- I might just play around
> further in real time.
>
> The fiber biomass at hand in my yard presently is coconut husks -- lots of
> them.
>
> One would not need grate at top and bottom -- just a central pipe -- of
> proper (as in found by experimentation) diameter -- well drilled with many
> tiny holes -- running top to bottom -- two steel plates fitted at either end.
>
> I would start with a central cavity one third or more of total diameter.
> Lots of burning area exposed -- and fuel not so thick a layer to choke out
> -- as in air not reaching the back part.
>
> Ignition could be accomplished by "priming" with a little kerosene??
>
> The product would be producer gas --
>
> Actually -- this would work much better with a bottom "burn" --- but down
> draft.
>
> Ya -- this might be worth the small effort to try!
>
> A small -- steel pellet -- gasifier for fibrous biomasses!
>
> To be run in "batch-mode" ---
>
> No need to worry about ash and char -- that would be looked after at the
> recycling plant.
>
> Peter
>

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From Gavin at roseplac.worldonline.co.uk Tue Oct 15 05:50:36 2002
From: Gavin at roseplac.worldonline.co.uk (Gavin Gulliver-Goodall)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:19 2004
Subject: Biodiesel
In-Reply-To: <E3117AE4EC45D511BEC10002A55CB09CFD984B@eukbant102.uk.eu.ericsson.se>
Message-ID: <MABBJLGAAFJBOBCKKPMGEEBECHAA.Gavin@roseplac.worldonline.co.uk>

Carl, they would tax you on the energy value in the wood , not the hp
produced by the engine - so youll need a very efficient gasifier!!

Gavin Gulliver-Goodall
3G Energi,

Tel +44 (0)1835 824201
Fax +44 (0)870 8314098
Mob +44 (0)7773 781498
E mail Gavin@3genergi.co.uk <mailto:Gavin@3genergi.co.uk>

-----Original Message-----
From: Carl Carley (EMP) [mailto:Carl.Carley@eml.ericsson.se]
Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 11:41
To: 'stoves@crest.org'; vegoil-diesel
Subject: RE: Biodiesel

So if I build a gasifier to run my IC engine and collect dead wood from the
side of the road, will the UK government tax me I wonder?
I suppose they'd call on 'special branch' ha ha ha !!

Carl

-----Original Message-----
From: elk [mailto:elk@wananchi.com]
Sent: 12 October 2002 06:49
To: stoves@crest.org
Subject: Biodiesel

Short note on recycled cooking oil:

Just heard on the BBC that British traffic police are cracking down on
motorists using discarded cooking oil to dilute the fuel in their diesel
vehicles- the offence is apparently that they avoid paying automotive fuel
taxes- which is perceived as an offence.

The response team that has been formed is nicknamed the 'Frying Squad' and
they apparently use their noses to detect the lawbreakers- a car's emissions
using a proportion of used cooking oil as fuel smells of fish & chips.

No joke- it's humorous, but a sad commentary on a government's tolerance to
fuel substitution.

elk

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From Gavin at roseplac.worldonline.co.uk Tue Oct 15 06:14:59 2002
From: Gavin at roseplac.worldonline.co.uk (Gavin Gulliver-Goodall)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:19 2004
Subject: straw briquettes -- steel inclosed
In-Reply-To: <3DAC15DC.DCA27DD6@ca.inter.net>
Message-ID: <MABBJLGAAFJBOBCKKPMGCEBGCHAA.Gavin@roseplac.worldonline.co.uk>

Why not put a spring at one end of the fuel "plug" and fit a wire mesh at
the other. Light the end with the mesh and the spring will feed the fuel
forward as the "plug" burns away?
Just a thought
gavin

Gavin Gulliver-Goodall
3G Energi,

Tel +44 (0)1835 824201
Fax +44 (0)870 8314098
Mob +44 (0)7773 781498
E mail Gavin@3genergi.co.uk <mailto:Gavin@3genergi.co.uk>

-----Original Message-----
From: Kevin Chisholm [mailto:kchisholm@ca.inter.net]
Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 14:19
To: Peter Singfield
Cc: stoves@crest.org
Subject: Re: straw briquettes -- steel inclosed

Dear Peter

To elaborate further on your idea....

What about if you had a central "retracting pipe" that
provided air for burning?

More specifically... imagine a 6" steel cylinder, 20"
long, with a 1" steel pipe in the middle. The straw, or
any other biomass, would be tightly packed in the
annular space.

This system could also be used with no central steel
pipe..... use the pipe only for initial forming.
Obviously, there would have to be a fuel stability to
permit removal of the "form pipe" entirely.

Please keep us posted on your results.

Kevin Chisholm

Peter Singfield wrote:
>
> Dear Crispin;
>
> >Dear Peter
> >
> >I am afraid I was not clear enough. The unit is not in a can, it is
placed
> >in one to be use. It sounded weird to me at the time but now I realize
that
> >it was mostly gassifying.
> >
> >The grass is bound into long sausages that are a function of the grass'
> >height, and then sliced like a sausage into chunks about the size and
height
> >of a canned ham tin, say, 100mm.
>
> No -- I understood the concept immediatly! Just suggest precharging that
> "can" -- not with rope -- but with fibrous biomass -- and under greater
> pressure -- to increase fuel density.
>
> I was probably putting the horse ahead of the cart.
>
> The technical problem spinning in my mind was how to turn straw into a
> compact package for stove fuel.
>
> I was thinking along the lines of a hay bailer -- into a "can" -- that
> would be a "batch" cartridge of biomass to fuel a good stove.
>
> What size can would it take to hold the equivalent amount of btu 's -- in
> straw -- as those popular small butane "cans"??
>
> I "guessed" -- 5 in diameter by 20 in length.
>
> The list had been discussing pelletizing -- which is a huge mechanical
> process. Expensive in equipments and expensive in processing energy.
>
> I suggested recycling these cans -- in the same manner empty soft-drink
> bottles are (at least they still are here in Belize) by charging a deposit
> fee -- refundable when the container is returned -- to a central
> processing plant -- to be cleaned of ash/char -- then recharged with more
> straw.
>
> I suggested a few methods of charging said cannisters with hay (oops --
> straw) -- one by using a slightly modified screw press for oil extraction
> -- the other a linear ram press -- mechanically actuated by an
> exceptionally long lever on a ratchet mechanism -- the same as the old
> style car jacks.
>
> The screw oil press I presently have does not have threading running full
> length -- only 3 complete threads -- to "push" the charge into the
pressure
> extraction area.
>
> Just like a hand operated grain grinder (I use one of those a lot in day
to
> day food requirements here -- corn and corn tortilla) uses a few thread
> turns to push with incredible pressure into the grinding plates.
>
> Etc -- etc --
>
> Now -- using the interesting info you supplied:
>
> >Difficult to say as I didn't see it. If it was efficient and was
cooking,
> >it would have been about 750 watts or more which would require perhaps 5
> >grammes a minute of fuel, so for 100gm of grass, it would give 20 minutes
of
> >cooking. I recall them saying it was longer than that.
>
> I would expect the 5 in dia by 20 in length cylinder -- 6.4 liters
capacity
> -- to contain at least two kilo of compressed straw --
>
> So that cylinder "charge" should fire the stove at 750 watts for 400
> minutes -- 6.6 hours!!
>
> Not that bad a method to move straw type biomass fuels around??
>
> But the "bug" is probably that straw compressed to that state would not
> allow a top burn through the charge -- would it? (or even a bottom burn)
>
> So flush that thought --
>
> No binder is required as it takes a certain period of time for the straw
to
> "expand" after compressing -- and you screw the top on the cylinder before
> it has a chance to get "moving" -- holding it together.
>
> Wonder if a perforated tube -- of correct diameter -- running top to
bottom
> down the center of this charge -- would allow top burning/gasifying??
>
> Easy to charge such a cylinder using a screw press. (As a central cavity
is
> no problem to extrude "around")
>
> Basically -- a metal enclosed pellet of rather large size with a hole down
> through the center.
>
> One might be even able to choke/throttle it off -- and then restart -- for
> cooking more than one time on the same charge??
>
> I have some fine short lengths of "tubing" laying around -- cast iron
> piston sleeves from a cummins "903" rebuild -- I might just play around
> further in real time.
>
> The fiber biomass at hand in my yard presently is coconut husks -- lots of
> them.
>
> One would not need grate at top and bottom -- just a central pipe -- of
> proper (as in found by experimentation) diameter -- well drilled with many
> tiny holes -- running top to bottom -- two steel plates fitted at either
end.
>
> I would start with a central cavity one third or more of total diameter.
> Lots of burning area exposed -- and fuel not so thick a layer to choke out
> -- as in air not reaching the back part.
>
> Ignition could be accomplished by "priming" with a little kerosene??
>
> The product would be producer gas --
>
> Actually -- this would work much better with a bottom "burn" --- but down
> draft.
>
> Ya -- this might be worth the small effort to try!
>
> A small -- steel pellet -- gasifier for fibrous biomasses!
>
> To be run in "batch-mode" ---
>
> No need to worry about ash and char -- that would be looked after at the
> recycling plant.
>
> Peter
>

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From psanders at ilstu.edu Tue Oct 15 12:42:17 2002
From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:19 2004
Subject: A gasifier for lighting
In-Reply-To: <195.ef96afa.2adcb4b5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20021015154230.01f58560@mail.ilstu.edu>

Hello to all the stovers.

After 3 months in Mozambique with highly infrequent and borrowed e-mail
access, I am now back to the USA and can participate more.

I will report on my Juntos gasifier stoves in a later message.

Here, I want to ask Das to provide the details. What I think he
wrote is that the gasses from a gasifier (of wood products) can be
directed to a mantled-location and combusted there to give useful
light. If that is accomplished within reasonable costs and efforts,
that is a GREAT contribution.

Please share the details to the list (or privately if you want some
confidentiality.)

Paul

At 08:00 PM 10/14/02 -0400, Carefreeland@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated
10/10/02 4:08:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time, das@eagle-access.net
writes:

I have succeeded in making a wood sawdust
fueled mantle lamp gasifier using
an ordinary Coleman mantle. It puts out the light of 60 to 100 watt
light
bulb. Would anyone have a use for such a device?

A. Das Original Sources/Biomass Energy Foundation
Box 7137, Boulder, CO 80306 USA
das@eagle-access.net
303-237-3579
> Yes, I would use such a devise up at the farm in the cold evenings,
to stoke the fires in my greenhouse woodstoves. How long does it burn on
a charge? An hour or so would be perfect. Is the flame controllable from
bright to dim?
> I produce a lot of course chain saw dust cutting firewood. Usually I
just shovel it into the burner a little at a time creating smoke before
it burns. On the other hand, I use a propane lantern on low, or a
small kerosene hurricane lantern burning bright to find my wood and split
it by after dark.
>If the lamp is efficient on Btu conversion, it would be useful even
if it wasn't efficient on light production, as the almost smokeless heat
would be welcome. A little C02 is also good for the plants.
> How much would you have to charge for a well made one?
Daniel
Dimiduk

Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 -
7/00
Rotary University Teacher Grantee to Mozambique >10 mo of
2001-2003
Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State
University
Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice:
309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items:
www.ilstu.edu/~psanders

From psanders at ilstu.edu Tue Oct 15 13:12:52 2002
From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:19 2004
Subject: Theory and terminology questions about combustion
Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20021015155153.01f588f0@mail.ilstu.edu>

Stovers,

Here are some accumulated questions:

1. Can regular biomass (I am not referring to the charcoal that is a stage
of biomass consumption) be consumed in fire ***without first undergoing the
release of the gases (pyrolysis and gasification)*** that are subsequently
combusted when mixed with oxygen and sufficient ignition? In other words,
even in a regular "fire" of biomass, is it not true that the gases are
created first, even if the gases are almost immediately "burned"? Hence,
there is no "fire" without gasification first.

If yes to the above, then all stoves COULD be considered to be gasifiers,
and we therefore need to clarify that what we have been calling "gasifier
stoves" are ones in which ***the creation of the gases takes place in a
location at least slightly and control-ably removed in space and in time
from the point of the combustion of those gases***.

2. What are the real differences between "producer gas" and "wood-gas" and
"whatever-other-name-gas"?

We cannot use the term "bio-gas" because that by tradition refers to "gases
as produced by decomposition of wet biomass." We are dealing with the DRY
biomass. But not all of that dry biomass is wood or woody, and I believe
that "producer gas" does not adequately refer to the gasification of straw
or cow dung or coconut husks etc.

I sort of like the term "vege-gas" (as in vegetable-gas, and pronounced as
"vegie-gas" or "vegee-gas") to refer to the created gases from the
pyrolysis / gasification of any DRY plant-origin biomass. (We do not do
much gasification of dry animal-origin biomass.)

Paul

Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
Rotary University Teacher Grantee to Mozambique >10 mo of 2001-2003
Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders

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From snkm at btl.net Tue Oct 15 13:23:23 2002
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:19 2004
Subject: Biomass Grease Gun Gasifier Stove! (BGGGS)
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20021015150626.00934100@wgs1.btl.net>

Dear Kevin -- and those others interested in this topic;

Second reply --

At 10:19 AM 10/15/2002 -0300, you wrote:
>Dear Peter
>
>To elaborate further on your idea....
>
>What about if you had a central "retracting pipe" that
>provided air for burning?
>
>More specifically... imagine a 6" steel cylinder, 20"
>long, with a 1" steel pipe in the middle. The straw, or
>any other biomass, would be tightly packed in the
>annular space.
>
>To burn the biomass, a fire would be set at the
>intended "burn face." Air would be supplied through the
>steel pipe. As the fire burned, the "burn face" would
>advance behind the air inlet point, and the fire would
>tend to go out. At this point the steel puipe could e
>pulled back a few inches, enabling the air to easily
>access the burn face.
>
>The system could probably be operated in either the
>gasifying mode, OR in the "full combustion mode",
>depending on the rate of air supply, the dryness of the
>fuel, and the specifics of air introduction.
>
>This system could also be used with no central steel
>pipe..... use the pipe only for initial forming.
>Obviously, there would have to be a fuel stability to
>permit removal of the "form pipe" entirely.
>
>Please keep us posted on your results.
>
>Kevin Chisholm

Ok -- now -- how about this possibility?? And combining Gain's thought:

"Why not put a spring at one end of the fuel "plug" and fit a wire mesh at
the other. Light the end with the mesh and the spring will feed the fuel
forward as the "plug" burns away?"
"Just a thought"
"gavin"

It is pretty much a given that if the bottom of this compressed straw
canister was removed immediatly before dropping into place that the straw
would swell and start pushing itself out through the bottom.

Especially if heat is applied!

If a grate is fixed at the appropriate level below the lower lip of the
canister -- this would be a fine combustion zone.

Rather than furnish air down through the center -- it could be supplied
exactly to this part between lower lip of canister and grate -- though jets
of appropriate and varible configeration.

As for the idea of a spring mechanism to push fuel out -- excellent!!

But it would make the canister to expensive of a device if incorporated there.

Now -- think of a simple hand held grease gun that uses a charged cartridge
of grease.

The spring in that design serves this exact same function -- but is part of
the "gun" -- not the canister. It could be easily designed "external"
rather than internal -- as in a grease gun.

Then -- in this case -- the spring would then be on the top cover of the
stove cartridge cavity -- in open air -- not getting heated. Heat is
terrible on springs -- makes them lose their "spring" if to high.

So now our canister would come with two end parts -- threaded along the
lines of those Cheap Chinese flash lights -- a simple large threading
pressed into the thin sheet metal. (actually -- probably "rolled" in a
simple die set)

Or -- if heavier metal -- threaded on both ends for cover caps as the
grease gun mentioned is.

When the charged canister would be about to be applied to this stove -- the
two caps would be twisted off and stored (for later refitting before
shipping back to charging station) and the canister immediatly dropped into
the stove cavity.

On the cover would be a central shaft with a sufficient spring detent --
pushing against a plate that would fit in the charged straw cylinder -- to
press the charge out to the lower grate/space.

This would be pre-cocked -- before lower the lid -- just like the grease
gun example.

Once the lid is in place -- the pressure of the spring could be released to
do it's work.

All stays simple and extremely economic.

If one allowed the heat to pass back up -- in an annular space provided
between canister and stove body -- before exhausting to the side -- this
would further heat the biomass charge in the canister. Certainly -- this
would simplify the sliding of the charge out the bottom -- no hang ups.

Further -- if temps are allowed to go high enough -- you would have
products of pyrolysis coming though the bottom to add to combustion
intensity -- and the shrunken char left would simply fall to the grate --
to be properly combusted.

Kevin -- Gavin -- can you "see" any of this mechanism by this simple verbal
description??

Properly designed -- one could even use wet fuels then! (or rather higher
humidity -- such as 50 to 60%)

Wonder what the potential is in regards to a high quality -- clean and tar
free -- producer gas "product" in this style design??

Maybe we should move this over to the gas list guys??

For the stove guys -- a 750 watt unit would probably burn for 30 minutes
with a greatly scaled down version -- say -- made from a standard hand
operated grease gun!

One could then just imitate the normal paper grease cartridge with a thin
sheet metal design.

Call it the biomass grease gun gasifier stove!

Or even make up paper tubes from old newspapers and some flour and water.
Pack these with straw.

For the biomass lamp people out there -- here is a small gasifier??

(What does a hand operated grease gun cost these days??)

And Kevin -- if we could design such -- and it worked -- what a nice
product to have made in China!

Peter

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From snkm at btl.net Tue Oct 15 13:30:00 2002
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:19 2004
Subject: straw briquettes -- steel inclosed
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20021015143634.009d6ca0@wgs1.btl.net>

At 10:19 AM 10/15/2002 -0300, Kevin Chisholm wrote:
>Dear Peter
>
>To elaborate further on your idea....

Dear Kevin and others interested in this thread:

Again -- my mind jumped quicker than my typing.

The pre-packed straw container seemed a fine solution for fueling this
device -- as sent to this list

Dear stovers,

I enjoy yours suggestions about this idea.

John

**********************

And John had file attached this graphic:

Attachment Converted: "c:\XAIBE\ATTACH\China.gif"

True -- we are going beyond the domain of 750 watt "cookers" --

Simply put -- canister charging would probably work well with this design.

And how nice it would be to direct flue gas exhaust into a small
refrigerant working fluid boiler -- to achieve top efficiencies for power
generation!!

All on a micro scale --

Say a 4 kwh unit -- based on a converted old style Lister diesel (6 HP --
650 RPM -- as still made new in India -- and selling for much less than
$500 US) as prime mover.

No -- not converted to run producer gas -- rather converted into a piston
expansion engine -- the expanding refrigerant working fluid doing the work
-- rather than steam.

Why bother using a refrigerant such as "Butane" as a working fluid??

Because the entire device operates at much lower temperatures -- while
still achieving the same over all efficiencies as steam at high temperatures.

This makes materials and construction so much simpler and economic.

Besides -- you could even supplement heat from solar collectors -- or other
low temperature sources -- such as if you have a good hot spring in your
back yard.

The last is a technical "pun" -- as presently -- all geothermal power
plants use this same refrigerant working fluid design to extract large
amounts of power from low temperature heat sources.

Granted -- stretching the stove topic to the very limit --

But with a single device such as this in place one could use electric
stoves -- powered by biomass.

And what a slick unit that would be!

Peter Singfield

Belize, Central America

At 10:19 AM 10/15/2002 -0300, Kevin Chisholm wrote:
>Dear Peter
>
>To elaborate further on your idea....
>
>What about if you had a central "retracting pipe" that
>provided air for burning?
>
>More specifically... imagine a 6" steel cylinder, 20"
>long, with a 1" steel pipe in the middle. The straw, or
>any other biomass, would be tightly packed in the
>annular space.
>
>To burn the biomass, a fire would be set at the
>intended "burn face." Air would be supplied through the
>steel pipe. As the fire burned, the "burn face" would
>advance behind the air inlet point, and the fire would
>tend to go out. At this point the steel puipe could e
>pulled back a few inches, enabling the air to easily
>access teh burn face.
>
>The system could probably be operated in either the
>gasifying mode, OR in the "full combustion mode",
>depending on the rate of air supply, the dryness of the
>fuel, and the specifics of air introduction.
>
>This system could also be used with no central steel
>pipe..... use the pipe only for initial forming.
>Obviously, there would have to be a fuel stability to
>permit removal of the "form pipe" entirely.
>
>Please keep us posted on your results.
>
>Kevin Chisholm

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From Gavin at roseplac.worldonline.co.uk Tue Oct 15 14:34:50 2002
From: Gavin at roseplac.worldonline.co.uk (Gavin Gulliver-Goodall)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:19 2004
Subject: Biomass Grease Gun Gasifier Stove! (BGGGS)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20021015150626.00934100@wgs1.btl.net>
Message-ID: <MABBJLGAAFJBOBCKKPMGAEBKCHAA.Gavin@roseplac.worldonline.co.uk>

I like that idea!
I have access here in the Uk to briquetted sawdust. 40mm diameter very dense
I am wondering if I have some 40mm pipe- perhaps AJH has - he is far better
with tincanium than I and he has briquettes unless hes burnt them all
already!
However these briquettes when burnt in the open expand as they burn,
allowing the small particles to char and gasifier quickly- you get a lovely
bright yellow flame with no smoke for a while then a duller CO flame until
there is nothing left but a tiny amount of ash.
I think the hole in the middle for primary air might be needed for the BGGGS
(is that B3GS?)
Could it not be a top burning design -Spring and cylinder below with mesh
grate fixed so that it is the right distance below the pot for max heat
transfer?
Cheers
gavin

Gavin Gulliver-Goodall
3G Energi,

Tel +44 (0)1835 824201
Fax +44 (0)870 8314098
Mob +44 (0)7773 781498
E mail Gavin@3genergi.co.uk <mailto:Gavin@3genergi.co.uk>

-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Singfield [mailto:snkm@btl.net]
Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 21:08
To: Stoves@crest.org
Subject: Biomass Grease Gun Gasifier Stove! (BGGGS)

Dear Kevin -- and those others interested in this topic;

Second reply --

Ok -- now -- how about this possibility?? And combining Gain's thought:

Especially if heat is applied!

If a grate is fixed at the appropriate level below the lower lip of the
canister -- this would be a fine combustion zone.

Rather than furnish air down through the center -- it could be supplied
exactly to this part between lower lip of canister and grate -- though jets
of appropriate and varible configeration.

As for the idea of a spring mechanism to push fuel out -- excellent!!

But it would make the canister to expensive of a device if incorporated
there.

Now -- think of a simple hand held grease gun that uses a charged cartridge
of grease.

The spring in that design serves this exact same function -- but is part of
the "gun" -- not the canister. It could be easily designed "external"
rather than internal -- as in a grease gun.

Or -- if heavier metal -- threaded on both ends for cover caps as the
grease gun mentioned is.

On the cover would be a central shaft with a sufficient spring detent --
pushing against a plate that would fit in the charged straw cylinder -- to
press the charge out to the lower grate/space.

This would be pre-cocked -- before lower the lid -- just like the grease
gun example.

Once the lid is in place -- the pressure of the spring could be released to
do it's work.

All stays simple and extremely economic.

Kevin -- Gavin -- can you "see" any of this mechanism by this simple verbal
description??

Properly designed -- one could even use wet fuels then! (or rather higher
humidity -- such as 50 to 60%)

Wonder what the potential is in regards to a high quality -- clean and tar
free -- producer gas "product" in this style design??

Maybe we should move this over to the gas list guys??

For the stove guys -- a 750 watt unit would probably burn for 30 minutes
with a greatly scaled down version -- say -- made from a standard hand
operated grease gun!

One could then just imitate the normal paper grease cartridge with a thin
sheet metal design.

Call it the biomass grease gun gasifier stove!

Or even make up paper tubes from old newspapers and some flour and water.
Pack these with straw.

For the biomass lamp people out there -- here is a small gasifier??

(What does a hand operated grease gun cost these days??)

And Kevin -- if we could design such -- and it worked -- what a nice
product to have made in China!

Peter

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From snkm at btl.net Tue Oct 15 17:14:34 2002
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:19 2004
Subject: Biomass Grease Gun Gasifier Stove! (BGGGS)
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20021015185934.009db900@wgs1.btl.net>

Dear Gavin;

At 11:31 PM 10/15/2002 +0100, Gavin Gulliver-Goodall wrote:
>I like that idea!
>I have access here in the Uk to briquetted sawdust. 40mm diameter very dense
>I am wondering if I have some 40mm pipe- perhaps AJH has - he is far better
>with tincanium than I and he has briquettes unless hes burnt them all
>already!

Yes -- an excellent starting point.

>However these briquettes when burnt in the open expand as they burn,
>allowing the small particles to char and gasifier quickly- you get a lovely
>bright yellow flame with no smoke for a while then a duller CO flame until
>there is nothing left but a tiny amount of ash.
>I think the hole in the middle for primary air might be needed for the BGGGS
>(is that B3GS?)

Bee three Gee Ess -- rolls off the tongue better --

Remember Arnt's gasifier?? So well diagrammed at:

http://skyboom.com/arnt/ssrcolor.gif

(Hope that Url still works -- if not -- let me know -- I'll ask Arnt for a
good url)

Take a good look at that diagram -- replace everything above the
"main-air-nozzles" and "combustion-zone" with the entry of the briquette.

Also -- yes -- notice his air entrance to the upper center -- that would be
your "hole-in-the-middle" and serves to gasify the pyrolysis gasses.

The hole in the middle would be a pipe with many small holes bored through
the side.

The bottom of the pipe would touch a cross member coming across the top of
the "cone" -- below which is the reduction area -- where gas is produced.

This would also give you a "stop" -- setting the distance that briquette is
allowed to slide from sleeve.

>Could it not be a top burning design -Spring and cylinder below with mesh
>grate fixed so that it is the right distance below the pot for max heat
>transfer?

Sure -- why not -- simpler that way to!!

I was thinking more in terms having a gas product -- fed to a gas burner.

But certainly -- just top burning directly under the pot would simplify
everything by a great amount -- and ultimately -- function just as well.

Further -- you do not mention length of these pellets (ok -- large round
pellets) -- but it makes no real difference -- as you can design your
cylinder to any length -- and just load multiple pellets -- one after the
other -- in that "tube".

You could also just take that tube and manually -- with any simple ram
press design -- charge it will all kinds of different and combustible
substances -- even powdered coal one would imagine!

One could make a very small stove -- a single pellet (OK -- "briquette")
unit -- good for making that cup of tea.

One wonders about "draft" though -- maybe extend a shoulder -- say six
inches -- then have a simple sliding "band" with matching holes in band and
stove body -- so draft could be easily -- and finely -- adjusted -- at the
"reduction-zone"?

Well -- here we go "off" again!!

By the way all -- just finished firing up and "proving" my new "plate"
drier that fuels on just about any biomass -- but in this case -- coconut
husks and nut shell.

Surface plate is 36 in wide by 12 feet long -- with a 19 foot chimney at
the far end and a small firebox at the other.

I have 3 adjustable draft/air vents. Below the grate -- even with just the
top of grate -- and into the flame area.

I works incredibly well!! No smoke of course. And -- total combustion of
biomass -- with extremely little ash -- and no char (or almost none)

Please remember -- this was built entirely with hand tools -- in 3rd world
-- using available 3rd world materials.

I personally feel the 19 foot chimney is a work of art -- very simple -- I
rolled up a 16 foot length of corrugated roofing sheet metal to make a very
rigid "pipe-stack" that is pop-riveted together.

I used a scrap (bottom only rotted out) 100 lb butane tank for the base --
cut a clean-out door through the bottom side -- mounted the whole unit in a
circular cement base -- piped in from the furnace from the other side of
the clean out door.

I took off the tank top collar -- then cut out the top flush with where the
collar fits -- then welded that collar back on.

The roofing pipe fits tight over that -- then welded another collar a few
inches out from both -- and filled the space with cement.

Regarding the cement.

Here lime "marl" is extremely common -- and as we had just dug a new pit
for the out -house -- had a pile to work with.

Four parts marl (screened 1/2 in) -- one part portland cement. Very stable
material for building stoves -- does not crack. Wonder why?

We grated 30 coconuts and dried the gratings on this plate drier -- just to
try it. And it works perfectly!!

Tomorrow I fire up the old style -- 12 HP -- two cylinder -- 650 RPM Lister
-- then once that is running -- throw on three 8 foot belts that drive the
screw expressor -- then tighten the belts (the entire expressor -- all 800
pounds of it -- is in a wooden trough that allows sliding 10 inches) by
pulling a long lever -- locking it in place -- and express some coconut oil.

It is rather nerve wracking to throw belts on an operating engine -- but it
works well in the manner described.

Peter / In Belize

>Cheers
>gavin
>
>Gavin Gulliver-Goodall
>3G Energi, UK
>

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From Carefreeland at aol.com Tue Oct 15 18:35:05 2002
From: Carefreeland at aol.com (Carefreeland@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:19 2004
Subject: Biomass Grease Gun Gasifier Stove! (BGGGS)
Message-ID: <e4.2f3d2c21.2ade2983@aol.com>

> Dan's comments below

Regarding the cement.

Here lime "marl" is extremely common -- and as we had just dug a new pit
for the out -house -- had a pile to work with.

Four parts marl (screened 1/2 in) -- one part portland cement. Very stable
material for building stoves -- does not crack. Wonder why?

> Can this MARL be very porus allowing the moisture to escape as heated instead of pressurizing and cracking? Most Foundrys today have gone to sodium silicate binder and CO2 as hardener to avoid the cracking of the old wet sand mold mixes from incomplete drying.
>Glad to see you on stoves list Peter, I'm visualizing along with the rest on this. Could a catalyst be added to the grate to enable cleaner combustion?
>I really think that old (pre-1900) cast iron had more manganese in it, because of the way the wood smoke seems to combust more throughly in it. Who started making stoves out of mild steel anyway? Probably the Carnigie crowd. They did that to all the good old iron products because it was easier to mass produce by fabrication over casting. The heck with workability and durability - welcome planned obsolesence. What improved the strength of iron railroad rails did not always work with other products. Comments?
Dan Dimiduk

From ronallarson at qwest.net Tue Oct 15 21:34:04 2002
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:19 2004
Subject: Forwarding Sandy Wynne-Jones on Gelfuel
In-Reply-To: <NGBBKDEHILILFNJPHEFICEOACCAA.ronallarson@qwest.net>
Message-ID: <NGBBKDEHILILFNJPHEFIEEOBCCAA.ronallarson@qwest.net>

ï»¿

-----Original Message-----From: Ron Larson
[mailto:ronallarson@qwest.net]Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 11:31
PMTo: Sandy Wynne-Jones; stoves@crest.netSubject:
Forwarding Sandy Wynne-Jones on Gelfuel
Sandy - Thanks for this reply. See a few
questions below.

Stovers - Sandy is the person whose work on gelfuel I
reported back in early September - with some questions - whose answers are
below

-----Original Message-----From: Sandy Wynne-Jones
[mailto:sandy@malawi.net]Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 4:21
AMTo: ronallarson@qwest.netSubject:
Re:Gelfuel
Dear Ron,
Many thanks for your email and appologise
for not replying earlier.
Yes we are the ones about to launch
Gelfuel outside South Africa and Zimbabwe and comment on your questions and
thoughts.
1/ Firstly, Gelfuels main ingredient
is certainly Ethanol but we do add a hardener and other chemicals to the
product to get the final product, which are unknown to the public and this
is a secret.[Ron Larson] Somewhere along the line we had that figured
out - in part because of statements attributed to you (maybe by me) about
the source of the ethanol. 
2/ Where are you based , emails are fantastic but they do
not disclose where they come from?[Ron Larson2] : I am in Golden Colorado,
USA.

3/ What is STOVES?[Ron Larson3]: We are an informal group
of about 200, using the list serve capability of a site found at <A
href="http://www.crest.net">www.crest.net. Once there (and earlier
at "bioenergy"), you can find almost 7 years of archived messages.
Your name came up a lot about 5 weeks ago, so you may wish to go back and
see that dialog - where there was a lot of interest because the prices and
emissions from gelfuel seemed low.

4/ Our intention is to work with the World
Bank and Government wherever we beleive there is a need for this product to
save the Environment. Our partners are based in Zimbabwe and South Africa
where they produce the product.
All other countries will come under our umbrella in
Malawi.
We have only just started in Malawi and still have to
build our main factory, but are manufacturing on a small scale.
The stoves we are making in Malawi as this will be more
central when we start looking further North. 
Looking forward to your reply.
Best regards, Sandy Wynne-Jones.[Ron
Larson] The main question that was going around on our list was
the price that could be expected - both wholesale and retail. If you
can expand on that at all, you would answer many questions - perhaps
especially on those locations where the gelfuel looks like the best option
for consumers - in your opinion.

Thanks for your reply. Best of luck with your
stove endeavor

From kchisholm at ca.inter.net Wed Oct 16 06:42:24 2002
From: kchisholm at ca.inter.net (Kevin Chisholm)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:19 2004
Subject: Biomass Grease Gun Gasifier Stove! (BGGGS)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20021015150626.00934100@wgs1.btl.net>
Message-ID: <3DAD79FE.F9E76AD@ca.inter.net>

Dear Peter

It is very interesting indeed how an idea can take off
on a life of its own. :-)

There are a number of interesting and interconnected
concepts here... fuel preparation, transport, feeding,
combustion, etc...

Your concept of a paper cartridge containment for the
compressed biomass fuel is great.... nothing has to be
returned to "the factory".

The advantages of the paper containment are that the
biomass does not have to be "very dry" (to permit
pressure binding), and/or binders become a relatively
smaller consideration.

Obviously, the larger the diameter of the "log", the
lower is the cost of the covering per kg of fuel.
However, if the "logs" are made relatively small, then
they can be used easily in existing "stick stoves".
See: http://www.efn.org/~apro/atrocketpage.html

The cute thing here is that there are huge numbers of
such stoves in widespread use altready; they can use
the "new fuel" when it is available, and when it is
not, then they can resort to their original stick fuel.

What would be really neat would be to get a compressed
straw cartridge with the optimum number of "axial air
holes!" Clearly, a solid "straw log" will be more
difficult to burn than a similar log with an air
passage up the middle. But then, if 1 is good, 2, or 3?
or 4? may be better?

The system does appear to have significant merit, but
the major drawback seems to be the need for paper to
make teh straw log cartridges. Is there perhaps a way
where the "logs" would actually be made like cigars?
More specifically, perhaps the straw could be
compressed in a steel die, then expelled from the die,
then it could be manually wrapped in a large leaf? This
would then potentially permit an entirely local and
indigenous fuel system.

Is there a potential for practicality here?

Kindest regards,

Kevin Chisholm

Peter Singfield wrote:
>
> Dear Kevin -- and those others interested in this topic;
>
> Second reply --
>
> At 10:19 AM 10/15/2002 -0300, you wrote:
> >Dear Peter
> >
> >To elaborate further on your idea....
> >
> >What about if you had a central "retracting pipe" that
> >provided air for burning?
> >
> >More specifically... imagine a 6" steel cylinder, 20"
> >long, with a 1" steel pipe in the middle. The straw, or
> >any other biomass, would be tightly packed in the
> >annular space.
> >
> >To burn the biomass, a fire would be set at the
> >intended "burn face." Air would be supplied through the
> >steel pipe. As the fire burned, the "burn face" would
> >advance behind the air inlet point, and the fire would
> >tend to go out. At this point the steel puipe could e
> >pulled back a few inches, enabling the air to easily
> >access the burn face.
> >
> >The system could probably be operated in either the
> >gasifying mode, OR in the "full combustion mode",
> >depending on the rate of air supply, the dryness of the
> >fuel, and the specifics of air introduction.
> >
> >This system could also be used with no central steel
> >pipe..... use the pipe only for initial forming.
> >Obviously, there would have to be a fuel stability to
> >permit removal of the "form pipe" entirely.
> >
> >Please keep us posted on your results.
> >
> >Kevin Chisholm
>
> Ok -- now -- how about this possibility?? And combining Gain's thought:
>
> "Why not put a spring at one end of the fuel "plug" and fit a wire mesh at
> the other. Light the end with the mesh and the spring will feed the fuel
> forward as the "plug" burns away?"
> "Just a thought"
> "gavin"
>
> It is pretty much a given that if the bottom of this compressed straw
> canister was removed immediatly before dropping into place that the straw
> would swell and start pushing itself out through the bottom.
>
> Especially if heat is applied!
>
> If a grate is fixed at the appropriate level below the lower lip of the
> canister -- this would be a fine combustion zone.
>
> Rather than furnish air down through the center -- it could be supplied
> exactly to this part between lower lip of canister and grate -- though jets
> of appropriate and varible configeration.
>
> As for the idea of a spring mechanism to push fuel out -- excellent!!
>
> But it would make the canister to expensive of a device if incorporated there.
>
> Now -- think of a simple hand held grease gun that uses a charged cartridge
> of grease.
>
> The spring in that design serves this exact same function -- but is part of
> the "gun" -- not the canister. It could be easily designed "external"
> rather than internal -- as in a grease gun.
>
> Then -- in this case -- the spring would then be on the top cover of the
> stove cartridge cavity -- in open air -- not getting heated. Heat is
> terrible on springs -- makes them lose their "spring" if to high.
>
> So now our canister would come with two end parts -- threaded along the
> lines of those Cheap Chinese flash lights -- a simple large threading
> pressed into the thin sheet metal. (actually -- probably "rolled" in a
> simple die set)
>
> Or -- if heavier metal -- threaded on both ends for cover caps as the
> grease gun mentioned is.
>
> When the charged canister would be about to be applied to this stove -- the
> two caps would be twisted off and stored (for later refitting before
> shipping back to charging station) and the canister immediatly dropped into
> the stove cavity.
>
> On the cover would be a central shaft with a sufficient spring detent --
> pushing against a plate that would fit in the charged straw cylinder -- to
> press the charge out to the lower grate/space.
>
> This would be pre-cocked -- before lower the lid -- just like the grease
> gun example.
>
> Once the lid is in place -- the pressure of the spring could be released to
> do it's work.
>
> All stays simple and extremely economic.
>
> If one allowed the heat to pass back up -- in an annular space provided
> between canister and stove body -- before exhausting to the side -- this
> would further heat the biomass charge in the canister. Certainly -- this
> would simplify the sliding of the charge out the bottom -- no hang ups.
>
> Further -- if temps are allowed to go high enough -- you would have
> products of pyrolysis coming though the bottom to add to combustion
> intensity -- and the shrunken char left would simply fall to the grate --
> to be properly combusted.
>
> Kevin -- Gavin -- can you "see" any of this mechanism by this simple verbal
> description??
>
> Properly designed -- one could even use wet fuels then! (or rather higher
> humidity -- such as 50 to 60%)
>
> Wonder what the potential is in regards to a high quality -- clean and tar
> free -- producer gas "product" in this style design??
>
> Maybe we should move this over to the gas list guys??
>
> For the stove guys -- a 750 watt unit would probably burn for 30 minutes
> with a greatly scaled down version -- say -- made from a standard hand
> operated grease gun!
>
> One could then just imitate the normal paper grease cartridge with a thin
> sheet metal design.
>
> Call it the biomass grease gun gasifier stove!
>
> Or even make up paper tubes from old newspapers and some flour and water.
> Pack these with straw.
>
> For the biomass lamp people out there -- here is a small gasifier??
>
> (What does a hand operated grease gun cost these days??)
>
> And Kevin -- if we could design such -- and it worked -- what a nice
> product to have made in China!
>
> Peter
>
> -
> Stoves List Archives and Website:
> http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200209/
> http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
> >
> Stoves List Moderators:
> Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
> Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
>
> Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon
>
> List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
> List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
> List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>
> >
> For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
> >http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Chambers/Chambers.htm

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From snkm at btl.net Wed Oct 16 08:41:05 2002
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:19 2004
Subject: Biomass Grease Gun Gasifier Stove! (BGGGS)
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20021016103015.00972740@wgs1.btl.net>

Dear Dan;

At 10:31 PM 10/15/2002 EDT, Carefreeland@aol.com wrote:
>>>>
In a message dated 10/15/02 9:13:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, snkm@btl.net
writes:
> Dan's comments below

> Can this MARL be very porus allowing the moisture to escape as heated
instead of pressurizing and cracking? Most Foundries today have gone to
sodium silicate binder and CO2 as hardener to avoid the cracking of the old
wet sand mold mixes from incomplete drying.

**********
Never fully investigated the finished product -- but certainly might be.

I line the hottest parts -- such as the fire box -- with smashed flat
roofing sheet metal. Double layer.

This solves the need for a refractory lining.

Past experience has demonstrated to me that Marl cement -- though it is
crack resistant to high heat -- seriously erodes when exposed to flame or
hot flue gasses.

>Glad to see you on stoves list Peter, I'm visualizing along with the rest
on this. Could a catalyst be added to the grate to enable cleaner
combustion?

********

Been here for a while -- lurking -- and probably will have to go back to
lurking -- no time!!

Yes -- a while back during Gas list activity I did a full study of
catalysts on the WWW. They are widely available at very reasonable costs.

They are quite the specific solution for increasing gasifier gas quality --
as in down stream from the reaction/combustion zone.

>I really think that old (pre-1900) cast iron had more manganese in it,
because of the way the wood smoke seems to combust more thoroughly in it.
Who started making stoves out of mild steel anyway? Probably the Carnigie
crowd. They did that to all the good old iron products because it was
easier to mass produce by fabrication over casting. The heck with
workability and durability - welcome planned obsolescence. What improved
the strength of iron railroad rails did not always work with other
products. Comments?

************

When young -- I worked in an old style Foundry -- and the old foundry man
was always throwing a handful or two of manganese powder into certain pots
as they were filled at the cupola spout -- then stirring quickly with a
hard wood stick.

This foundry made maple syrup production furnaces -- and when certain parts
were cast -- he added the manganese. Sorry -- don't remember which parts --
but the rotating grates where large -- and made from cast iron.

There are also certain "baffles" incorporated above the fire pit.

(My present furnace for rapidly drying shredded coconut is based entirely
on these ancient designs -- but much smaller)

Cast iron foundry is simply technology -- easy to adapt to 3rd world.

Give me time -- I'll have mine running!

Cast iron is the best stove making material!!

Ergo -- my suggestion to Kevin to move manufacturing to China -- which is
presently cast iron technology king of planet earth!!

Well -- that's is for me -- got some electric welding to attend to right now.

Basically Dan -- I have moved from talking about it to doing it --

Peter

********************

Dan Dimiduk

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From snkm at btl.net Wed Oct 16 08:42:39 2002
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:20 2004
Subject: Biomass Grease Gun Gasifier Stove! (BGGGS)
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20021016101409.00951e80@wgs1.btl.net>

Dear Kevin;

Paper is a biomass product!! Though we automatically assume it takes a huge
investment in machinery to make paper -- this is not true at all.

I remember when I had my shop in the old industrial area of Montreal City
port -- visiting a small enterprise -- in an ancient stone building --
where they had been making high quality paper -- in that same location --
in the same manner -- for at least 300 years!

One room -- say 30 by 40 feet in size.

I believe an operation along the lines you suggest could also put in a
small paper making rig -- and still come up much less in cost -- both in
energy use and hard dollars -- than "pelletizing".

One could skip the pulp to paper pressing -- as this would occur during
charging the paper cylinder in the "die" --right?? So -- a soft wet pulp
tube goes in the die -- is charged with biomass -- then pressed??

So now you would have a cylinder surrounded with crude paper -- filled with
compressed biomass of choice.

The first thought that comes to mind is simple recycling of waste paper --
news papers/magazines -- cardboard boozes -- etc.

But in 3rd world -- where this is rare (sufficient amounts of waste paper)
-- a small biomass pulping unit is not out of the question.

Make the "binder" just a thin "external" sleeve??

One that is totally combustible as well.

For those that would like to visualize this -- think in terms of fire-works.

That is paper tubes filled with black powder that can hold incredible
pressures. Sky-rockets -- etc.

Now -- I wonder if a steel cylinder the size of a normal 100 lb butane tank
could hold just about the same amount -- in heat value -- of highly
compressed "straw" and delivered to homes where it is hooked to a "gasifier"

To give you a logical example of exchanging cylinders.

Butane supply and delivery is just about global in 3rd world. So do not
give up on steel cylinders that quickly. This infrastructure is already in
place -- and little change in design is required.

So Butane distribution could be replaced easily with biomass distribution.

Remember all on this list. The huge problem with biomass is low
BTU/heat-value densities negating transport over great distances.

Ergo -- the hay bailer revolutionized the hay selling industry -- allowing
semi trailers to reach maximum pay loads to make delivery over long
distances viable.

Bail the straw -- then you can deliver to greater distance to the
processing plant.

There -- just like butane cylinders -- all sizes can be made for house to
house distribution.

Hey Kevin -- a brand new global "industry" -- not very often that chance
comes along!

All we need is a sharp increase in fossil fuel costs -- and this becomes an
extremely viable solution!

Peter

At 11:38 AM 10/16/2002 -0300, Kevin Chisholm wrote:
>Dear Peter
>
>It is very interesting indeed how an idea can take off
>on a life of its own. :-)
>
>There are a number of interesting and interconnected
>concepts here... fuel preparation, transport, feeding,
>combustion, etc...
>
>Your concept of a paper cartridge containment for the
>compressed biomass fuel is great.... nothing has to be
>returned to "the factory".
>
>The advantages of the paper containment are that the
>biomass does not have to be "very dry" (to permit
>pressure binding), and/or binders become a relatively
>smaller consideration.
>
>Obviously, the larger the diameter of the "log", the
>lower is the cost of the covering per kg of fuel.
>However, if the "logs" are made relatively small, then
>they can be used easily in existing "stick stoves".
>See: http://www.efn.org/~apro/atrocketpage.html
>
>The cute thing here is that there are huge numbers of
>such stoves in widespread use altready; they can use
>the "new fuel" when it is available, and when it is
>not, then they can resort to their original stick fuel.
>
>What would be really neat would be to get a compressed
>straw cartridge with the optimum number of "axial air
>holes!" Clearly, a solid "straw log" will be more
>difficult to burn than a similar log with an air
>passage up the middle. But then, if 1 is good, 2, or 3?
>or 4? may be better?
>
>The system does appear to have significant merit, but
>the major drawback seems to be the need for paper to
>make teh straw log cartridges. Is there perhaps a way
>where the "logs" would actually be made like cigars?
>More specifically, perhaps the straw could be
>compressed in a steel die, then expelled from the die,
>then it could be manually wrapped in a large leaf? This
>would then potentially permit an entirely local and
>indigenous fuel system.
>
>Is there a potential for practicality here?
>
>Kindest regards,
>
>Kevin Chisholm
>
>
>Peter Singfield wrote:
>>
>> Dear Kevin -- and those others interested in this topic;
>>
>> Second reply --
>>
>> At 10:19 AM 10/15/2002 -0300, you wrote:
>> >Dear Peter
>> >
>> >To elaborate further on your idea....
>> >
>> >What about if you had a central "retracting pipe" that
>> >provided air for burning?
>> >
>> >More specifically... imagine a 6" steel cylinder, 20"
>> >long, with a 1" steel pipe in the middle. The straw, or
>> >any other biomass, would be tightly packed in the
>> >annular space.
>> >
>> >To burn the biomass, a fire would be set at the
>> >intended "burn face." Air would be supplied through the
>> >steel pipe. As the fire burned, the "burn face" would
>> >advance behind the air inlet point, and the fire would
>> >tend to go out. At this point the steel puipe could e
>> >pulled back a few inches, enabling the air to easily
>> >access the burn face.
>> >
>> >The system could probably be operated in either the
>> >gasifying mode, OR in the "full combustion mode",
>> >depending on the rate of air supply, the dryness of the
>> >fuel, and the specifics of air introduction.
>> >
>> >This system could also be used with no central steel
>> >pipe..... use the pipe only for initial forming.
>> >Obviously, there would have to be a fuel stability to
>> >permit removal of the "form pipe" entirely.
>> >
>> >Please keep us posted on your results.
>> >
>> >Kevin Chisholm
>>
>> Ok -- now -- how about this possibility?? And combining Gain's thought:
>>
>> "Why not put a spring at one end of the fuel "plug" and fit a wire mesh at
>> the other. Light the end with the mesh and the spring will feed the fuel
>> forward as the "plug" burns away?"
>> "Just a thought"
>> "gavin"
>>
>> It is pretty much a given that if the bottom of this compressed straw
>> canister was removed immediatly before dropping into place that the straw
>> would swell and start pushing itself out through the bottom.
>>
>> Especially if heat is applied!
>>
>> If a grate is fixed at the appropriate level below the lower lip of the
>> canister -- this would be a fine combustion zone.
>>
>> Rather than furnish air down through the center -- it could be supplied
>> exactly to this part between lower lip of canister and grate -- though jets
>> of appropriate and varible configeration.
>>
>> As for the idea of a spring mechanism to push fuel out -- excellent!!
>>
>> But it would make the canister to expensive of a device if incorporated
there.
>>
>> Now -- think of a simple hand held grease gun that uses a charged cartridge
>> of grease.
>>
>> The spring in that design serves this exact same function -- but is part of
>> the "gun" -- not the canister. It could be easily designed "external"
>> rather than internal -- as in a grease gun.
>>
>> Then -- in this case -- the spring would then be on the top cover of the
>> stove cartridge cavity -- in open air -- not getting heated. Heat is
>> terrible on springs -- makes them lose their "spring" if to high.
>>
>> So now our canister would come with two end parts -- threaded along the
>> lines of those Cheap Chinese flash lights -- a simple large threading
>> pressed into the thin sheet metal. (actually -- probably "rolled" in a
>> simple die set)
>>
>> Or -- if heavier metal -- threaded on both ends for cover caps as the
>> grease gun mentioned is.
>>
>> When the charged canister would be about to be applied to this stove -- the
>> two caps would be twisted off and stored (for later refitting before
>> shipping back to charging station) and the canister immediatly dropped into
>> the stove cavity.
>>
>> On the cover would be a central shaft with a sufficient spring detent --
>> pushing against a plate that would fit in the charged straw cylinder -- to
>> press the charge out to the lower grate/space.
>>
>> This would be pre-cocked -- before lower the lid -- just like the grease
>> gun example.
>>
>> Once the lid is in place -- the pressure of the spring could be released to
>> do it's work.
>>
>> All stays simple and extremely economic.
>>
>> If one allowed the heat to pass back up -- in an annular space provided
>> between canister and stove body -- before exhausting to the side -- this
>> would further heat the biomass charge in the canister. Certainly -- this
>> would simplify the sliding of the charge out the bottom -- no hang ups.
>>
>> Further -- if temps are allowed to go high enough -- you would have
>> products of pyrolysis coming though the bottom to add to combustion
>> intensity -- and the shrunken char left would simply fall to the grate --
>> to be properly combusted.
>>
>> Kevin -- Gavin -- can you "see" any of this mechanism by this simple verbal
>> description??
>>
>> Properly designed -- one could even use wet fuels then! (or rather higher
>> humidity -- such as 50 to 60%)
>>
>> Wonder what the potential is in regards to a high quality -- clean and tar
>> free -- producer gas "product" in this style design??
>>
>> Maybe we should move this over to the gas list guys??
>>
>> For the stove guys -- a 750 watt unit would probably burn for 30 minutes
>> with a greatly scaled down version -- say -- made from a standard hand
>> operated grease gun!
>>
>> One could then just imitate the normal paper grease cartridge with a thin
>> sheet metal design.
>>
>> Call it the biomass grease gun gasifier stove!
>>
>> Or even make up paper tubes from old newspapers and some flour and water.
>> Pack these with straw.
>>
>> For the biomass lamp people out there -- here is a small gasifier??
>>
>> (What does a hand operated grease gun cost these days??)
>>
>> And Kevin -- if we could design such -- and it worked -- what a nice
>> product to have made in China!
>>
>> Peter
>>
>> -
>> Stoves List Archives and Website:
>> http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200209/
>> http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
>> >
>> Stoves List Moderators:
>> Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
>> Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
>>
>> Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
>> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
>> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
>> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon
>>
>> List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
>> List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
>> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
>> List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>
>> >
>> For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
>>
>http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Chambers/Chambers.htm
>
>-
>Stoves List Archives and Website:
>http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200209/
>http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
>>
>Stoves List Moderators:
>Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
>Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
>
>Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
>http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
>http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
>http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon
>
>List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
>List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
>List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
>List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>
>>
>For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
>>http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Chambers/Chambers.htm
>
>

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From Carefreeland at aol.com Wed Oct 16 10:06:16 2002
From: Carefreeland at aol.com (Carefreeland@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:20 2004
Subject: Biomass Grease Gun Gasifier Stove! (BGGGS)
Message-ID: <20.270726.2adf03cb@aol.com>

Peter,
No time to reply to all statements now. I'm too busy stoking my
greenhouse stove during this brisk windy day, with a coastal nor-easter
blowing cloudy cool fall weather back to us.
The foundry probably used ferromanganese as a fluxing agent to draw
off the phosphorus oxide, sulfur and other impuritys, if I have that
chemistry right. That is one reason that cast iron is usually high in
manganese. The other has to do with the fact that the high manganese iron
ores common in the 1800's were preferred for the steel making/iron working
techniques of the day. Today, with cold rolled and mild steels king, less
manganese is usually desired because it becomes brittle.
Any knowledge of cobalt and the types of materials cobalt steel is
contained in? I know it is used for nuke plants, but not sure if it is for
the heat tolerance it has. What else is it used for? Cobalt and manganese are
all you need for a catalyst. Just throw the cobalt steel in the iron ladle
with the manganese, and pour your "catalytic firebox". Cobalt chloride is
commonly avalible.
More off list about my progress on foundry work when I have time. Keep
me posted on yours.
No reason that any place with a good wood/char fuel and labor supply
can't be a good place to locate a foundry. Good luck with yours.
Dan Dimiduk

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From cree at dowco.com Wed Oct 16 11:19:42 2002
From: cree at dowco.com (John Olsen)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:20 2004
Subject: Biomass is !!!!
Message-ID: <001901c27548$93b1e6c0$4a8457d1@olsen>

Hi,
Anything which grows can be dried and turned into a fuel.( or paper or
cardboard or etc...)
The trick is to find a way of farming, harvesting, transporting, drying,
compacting, distributing, and then lighting and burning efficiently.
Our list members are all working on all aspects of this, and Third World
countries have these problems multiplied by many factors.
regards
John Olsen
"Heatlog"

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From psanders at ilstu.edu Wed Oct 16 13:25:19 2002
From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:20 2004
Subject: Biomass Grease Gun Gasifier Stove! (BGGGS)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20021015185934.009db900@wgs1.btl.net>
Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20021016162051.01bf7150@mail.ilstu.edu>

Peter, I am admiring your creative work. But I am not grasping some
things. So here are a few questions.

At 07:07 PM 10/15/02 -0500, Peter Singfield wrote:
>.......
>
>Remember Arnt's gasifier?? So well diagrammed at:
>
>http://skyboom.com/arnt/ssrcolor.gif
>
>(Hope that Url still works -- if not -- let me know -- I'll ask Arnt for a
>good url)
>.........

Sorry, it did not connect. Can anyone give the correct URL?

.....

>Surface plate is 36 in wide by 12 feet long -- with a 19 foot chimney at
>the far end and a small firebox at the other.
>
>I have 3 adjustable draft/air vents. Below the grate -- even with just the
>top of grate -- and into the flame area.
>
>I works incredibly well!! No smoke of course. And -- total combustion of
>biomass -- with extremely little ash -- and no char (or almost none).

Questions: The "small firebox". is it a true gasifier (as is Tom Reed's
IDD stove and my Juntos stove), or truly a "small firebox" in the
traditional sense (bottom lighted) connected to a 12 foot horizontal box
plus 19 feet of chimney (total of 31 ft of draft-generation.)

Your "3 adjustable draft/air vents" suggests to me something akin to
Crispin's "bucket grate" with air entering in the bottom and then also
additional air coming in through side-holes in the bucket, including some
into the flame area. Please describe more the actual combustion chamber /
firebox.

Thanks.

Paul

Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
Rotary University Teacher Grantee to Mozambique >10 mo of 2001-2003
Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders

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From psanders at ilstu.edu Wed Oct 16 13:35:26 2002
From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:20 2004
Subject: Burning coconut HUSKS
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20021015185934.009db900@wgs1.btl.net>
Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20021016163307.01bdee00@mail.ilstu.edu>

Stovers,

Coconut husks are notoriously poor for fuel, right?

At 07:07 PM 10/15/02 -0500, Peter Singfield wrote:

>By the way all -- just finished firing up and "proving" my new "plate"
>drier that fuels on just about any biomass -- but in this case -- coconut
>husks and nut shell.

This is with his long box and chimney.

I too have had some success with burning coconut husks in the Juntos
gasifier (20 cm diameter chamber about 60 cm tall (with blower support at
times.)

What experiences (successful OR not) have others had, and in what
circumstances?

Paul

Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
Rotary University Teacher Grantee to Mozambique >10 mo of 2001-2003
Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders

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From snkm at btl.net Wed Oct 16 13:57:07 2002
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:20 2004
Subject: Burning coconut HUSKS
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20021016154810.0098e6a0@wgs1.btl.net>

Dear Paul;

I can supply some digital pictures in a few days of this "stove" in operation.

The 12 foot plate extension is not required -- in the least.

It would operate quite happily with just a flat plate top -- length of fire
box -- no more.

The real point that makes this work is the 19 ft chimney -- and I also
believe the 8 inch plus diameter of that is over kill.

4 inch would probably work just as well -- or 1/2 a standard width roofing
sheet.

The fire box is extremely air tight -- except for the vents/drafts. So
"tall" chimney -- tight fire box -- 3 levels of venting with fine
controlling ability for each.

Any adjusting vents gives an immediate response when box is well fired --
you hear the air "whistling" in --

But if I burn to far down into the char -- starting fresh is a slower
process -- and once -- had to even re-ignite the load.

This is accomplished by soaking one coconut husk with about 2 ounces of
kerosene -- putting that in the bottom -- igniting -- then immediatly
loading more on top.

I can tell the list this -- coconut husks burn extremely hot!!

So -- I need much less firebox than I imagined.

Peter

At 04:44 PM 10/16/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>Stovers,
>
>Coconut husks are notoriously poor for fuel, right?
>
>At 07:07 PM 10/15/02 -0500, Peter Singfield wrote:
>
>>By the way all -- just finished firing up and "proving" my new "plate"
>>drier that fuels on just about any biomass -- but in this case -- coconut
>>husks and nut shell.
>
>This is with his long box and chimney.
>
>I too have had some success with burning coconut husks in the Juntos
>gasifier (20 cm diameter chamber about 60 cm tall (with blower support at
>times.)
>
>What experiences (successful OR not) have others had, and in what
>circumstances?
>
>Paul
>
>
>Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
>Rotary University Teacher Grantee to Mozambique >10 mo of 2001-2003
>Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
>Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
>E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders
>
>
>-
>Stoves List Archives and Website:
>http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200209/
>http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
>>
>Stoves List Moderators:
>Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
>Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
>
>Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
>http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
>http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
>http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon
>
>List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
>List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
>List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
>List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>
>>
>For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
>>http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Chambers/Chambers.htm
>
>

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From snkm at btl.net Wed Oct 16 13:58:47 2002
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:20 2004
Subject: Biomass Grease Gun Gasifier Stove! (BGGGS)
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20021016153920.0097fa50@wgs1.btl.net>

At 04:32 PM 10/16/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>Peter, I am admiring your creative work. But I am not grasping some
>things. So here are a few questions.
>
>At 07:07 PM 10/15/02 -0500, Peter Singfield wrote:
>>.......
>>
>>Remember Arnt's gasifier?? So well diagrammed at:
>>
>>http://skyboom.com/arnt/ssrcolor.gif
>>
>>(Hope that Url still works -- if not -- let me know -- I'll ask Arnt for a
>>good url)
>>.........
>
>Sorry, it did not connect. Can anyone give the correct URL?
>

Ok -- it is a small size -- have file attached it -- hopes it makes it's
way though.

>.....
>
>>Surface plate is 36 in wide by 12 feet long -- with a 19 foot chimney at
>>the far end and a small firebox at the other.
>>
>>I have 3 adjustable draft/air vents. Below the grate -- even with just the
>>top of grate -- and into the flame area.
>>
>>I works incredibly well!! No smoke of course. And -- total combustion of
>>biomass -- with extremely little ash -- and no char (or almost none).
>
>Questions: The "small firebox". is it a true gasifier (as is Tom Reed's
>IDD stove and my Juntos stove), or truly a "small firebox" in the
>traditional sense (bottom lighted) connected to a 12 foot horizontal box
>plus 19 feet of chimney (total of 31 ft of draft-generation.)
>

It is designed as a combustion unit -- but of course -- gasification is there.

Draft entrances are adjusted according to fuel load conditions. Starting
with a full new load of fuel -- mostly bottom and mid level air -- once
combustion is well in progress -- less bottom -- but some -- no mid level
-- and some top.

The idea is to get a long slow burn.

The fire box sits under the front part of the plate -- the Chimney at the
other end -- but to the side.

There is a four inch channel connecting fire box to chimney -- almost full
width of the plate.

First thing I found -- direct flames to the front of plate is far to hot --
so mounted a sheet of metal 2 inches below this top plate extending 3 feet in.

The fire box is 24 in wide -- 22 in long -- 20 inches above grate -- 6
inches below.

That is also to big for my purposes -- I found out yesterday.

so have inserted a sheet metal "box that restricts the fuel "pile" to 11
inches deep by 14 wide and 8 inches tall.

This sits with one end open for both drafts -- and sits on part of the grate.

Will try it tomorrow --

Today we stripped down the oil expressor and washed it thoroughly.

>Your "3 adjustable draft/air vents" suggests to me something akin to
>Crispin's "bucket grate" with air entering in the bottom and then also
>additional air coming in through side-holes in the bucket, including some
>into the flame area. Please describe more the actual combustion chamber /
>firebox.

Yes -- just about the same --

Peter

>
>Thanks.
>
>Paul
>
>
>
>Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
>Rotary University Teacher Grantee to Mozambique >10 mo of 2001-2003
>Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
>Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
>E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders
>
>
ssrcolor1.gif

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From elk at wananchi.com Thu Oct 17 00:27:59 2002
From: elk at wananchi.com (elk)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:20 2004
Subject: Coconut Husks
Message-ID: <000101c275b6$b24ec6c0$4847083e@42v2501>

We at Chardust have run a few trials on
carbonisation and briquetting coconut husks. As our downdraught open-pit
carbonisation technique is designed for particulate biomass, we initially
hammermilled dried husks- what an unpleasant chore!

The outer (smooth) layer of the husk disintegrates
into a very irritant powder in the hammermill and is too light to be captured by
the dust cyclone attached to the mill. It presented a real health hazard- both
respiratory and explosive. We modified the mill, cut a hole in a wall and vented
this powder outside- trapping as much as practical in cloth bag filters. The
mill itself had to be cleaned frequently as the fibrous 'coir' which makes up
the bulk of the husk wrapped around the fixed beaters ( 60cm long & rotating
at 1400 rpm). We took the screen completely out of the mill. The noise created
as each quarter-husk was fed into the mill was frightening!

As for carbonisation- well, this was conducted
semi-satisfactorily, but the springy dry mass of coir in the pits allowed
unrestricted air-flow and the rate of carbonisation was very fast- difficult to
restrict airflow sufficiently to avoid much of the mass burning right through to
ash.

Considering the rather low conversion rate of 24%,
the ash content was

--------------------------Elsen L.
Karstadelk@wananchi.com<A
href="http://www.chardust.com">www.chardust.comNairobi
Kenya

From woodcoal at mailbox.alkor.ru Thu Oct 17 03:02:36 2002
From: woodcoal at mailbox.alkor.ru (Yudkevich Yury)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:20 2004
Subject: Good by my friends
Message-ID: <000401c275cc$bfca9ca0$793fefc3@mshome.net>

Dear friends and colleague,
I already have 68 years and I leave function of teaching. I shall work only
as the adviser. I ask to Unsubscribe me from a network stoves. I am deeply
grateful to all participants of a network. I am especially grateful Stoves
List Moderators. I send hot hi and word of gratitude to the doctor Ron
Larson, which I consider as the friend. The perfect work, which he makes,
deserves the most good words. All of us have joined that ideology, which he
always will carry out: we should serve to the people irrespective of races
and place of their life and to do their life better. I believe, that
"stoves" will prosper still very long. I keep the post address. I shall
inform, if it will change. I am open for personal contacts on a charcoaling.
I am open for any friendly contacts. All of you my friends for ever.
Thank
Yury Yudkevich, Russia <woodcoal@mailbox.alkor.ru>

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From elk at wananchi.com Thu Oct 17 03:13:45 2002
From: elk at wananchi.com (elk)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:20 2004
Subject: Coconut husk charcoal
Message-ID: <004e01c275cd$d60b3780$4847083e@42v2501>

Oops- sorry about the abbreviated mssg. on
carbonising coconut husk- it somehow managed to jump out of my drafts
folder and send itself!

Back to the topic of charcoal we've made from
coconut husk- the final product had an ash content of 33% which was rather
high largely due to the fact we used 15% clay as the only binder. If efficiently
carbonised- at conversion rates over 30% and binders such as starch or molasses
used in order to reduce or replace clay, the briquetted husk
charcoal should be perfectly acceptable as a substitute for lump wood
charcoal in this region.

Considering the amount of waste coconut husk
available throughout the world, I have always felt that R&D into a
practical commercial method of utilising this waste agri-industrial biomass
should be conducted ASAP. I don't know if there's any success stories anywhere,
but in East Africa the coconut husk is simply left to rot in piles beneath the
trees.

Memories of my experiences with burning coconut
husk in a three-stone open fire still brings tears to my eyes..... the only way
to burn husk without smoke is in a strong wind or with forced air. Briquetting-
either as raw biomass to produce a substitute for wood fuel or to a
charcoal briquette- seems to be the logical solution.

elk

--------------------------Elsen L.
Karstadelk@wananchi.com<A
href="http://www.chardust.com">www.chardust.comNairobi
Kenya

From ronallarson at qwest.net Thu Oct 17 06:14:39 2002
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:20 2004
Subject: FW: From Crispin at New Dawn Engineering, Swaziland
Message-ID: <NGBBKDEHILILFNJPHEFIGEPBCCAA.ronallarson@qwest.net>

Stovers:
I decided to leave all of the following dialog - although only Bob's first
part is really well thought out. The rest will give you a little background
on Crispin's visit to Addis. I repeat that I am very impressed by this stove
development work in Eritrea and Ethiopia. Remember that these are two of
the poorest countries on the earth - and some very good stoves development
work is going on. If anyone can describe more the work of esd, that would
be a help also.

One comment on the dialog - Bob has not yet understood Crispin's stove -
which is not one for use of charcoal.

Two questions:

To Bob - could you tell us more about costs - and where you found the
toughest challenges to drive the cost down?

To Both: Way near the end, Crispin uses the acronym CDM. From a Google
search, I am guessing this is Clean Development Mechanism - which is part of
the UNFCCC (UN Framework Convention on Climate Change). I don't believe I
have seen this on "stoves" - and am only vaguely familiar with what is
possible. Should stoves people all over be pushing for inclusion? I see
there is a meeting in Delhi at the end of this month - should we be
watching? Anyone on list know of a way to exploit the CDM for stove
introductions - as may be happening in Eritrea?

Thanks to Bob for a very complete report and set of leads.

-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Van Buskirk [mailto:robert@punchdown.org]
Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 10:41 PM
To: Ron Larson
Cc: Robert Van Buskirk; Crispin; Margaret Pemberton-Pigott; Brian Hill
Subject: Re: From Crispin at New Dawn Engineering, Swaziland

Dear Ron:

I think it would be better for the list if I just provided an
explicit update. Let me write one now, and then I will be doing
a visit to Eritrea in December/January and I can do another then.

Dear Stove List:

This is an update on the efficient stove activities in Eritrea,
East Africa with some reference to activities in Ethiopia.

In Eritrea and Ethiopia, the largest use of household energy
is in cooking the traditional bread injera. And this has been
the focus of activities in both countries.

In Eritrea the efficient stove work is organized by the
Energy Research and Training Center (ERTC) of the Eritrean
Department of Energy. The Eritrean Department of energy
secures funding from a variety of sources and then organizes
trainings and stove building programs in villages around the
country. The stove is in in-built stove with a chimney, a lower
air inlet, that feeds into the bottom of a ceramic grate.
that forms the floor of a round firebox. On top of the
round firebox is a flat cooking plate (about 60 cm in
diameter) on which the injera is cooked. The firebox has a
door that allows one to put the fuel in the firebox.

The activities of the Eritrean stove programs have recently
been picked up by Reuters, see for example:

http://www.ivillagehealth.com/news/child/content/0,13607,412520_536447,00.ht
ml

which describes that the Eritrean government is setting the
target of converting all households to the new fuel efficient
stoves. The first village-level pilot tests were in November
1999, and they have expanded to the point where over 5000 households
in 25 villages have been converted and over 200 stove artisans
have been trained. New stoves are being built at the rate of
a few thousand per year. This needs to grow to many tens of
thousandsper year to convert the country to the more efficient
stoves.

In support of these activities, we (the non-profit Eritrean
Technical Exchange Project) have done some studies to
technically support carbon credit funding. Two versions of
these studies are at:

http://www.punchdown.org/rvb/papers/ECEEEPaper6,178C.html

and

http://www.punchdown.org/rvb/papers/EriPaper2C.html

The Eritrean government is pursuing Kyoto Clean Development
Mechanism carbon credit funding as one possible funding path.
Preliminary indications are that there will be some small
successes.

For the Eritrean stoves, the health and comfort benefits
appear to be more important than the fuel savings benefits.

Researchers at the ERTC are constantly revising and refining
the stove design.

I try to keep some studies, reports and updates at:

http://www.punchdown.org/rvb/mogogo/

for your reference. Suggestions on the type of information
that would be useful for stove efficiency folks is welcome.
We have another collaborative visit to Eritrea planned for
this winter.

In Ethiopia, work on the mogogo-type stove is described at:

http://www.esd.co.uk/portfolio/BiomassStove.htm

and additional work on the jiko-type stove is also being
pursued as described at:

http://www.esd.co.uk/portfolio/CharcoalStove.htm
http://www.esd.co.uk/portfolio/PovertyStoves.htm

Ethiopia is taking a private sector approach with much
of the activity concentrated in the capital, Addis Ababa,
while Eritrea is taking a government facilitated approach
with the bulk of the activity occuring in rural villages.

I think it will be interesting for the members of the
stoves list to compare and contrast the Eritrean and
Ethiopian approaches as both of these programs evolve.

Our next initiative at the Eritrea Technical Exchange
will be to provide assistance to the Eritrean Department
of Energy in piloting ultraviolet water disinfection
technology as a complement to its stove promotion work.
See:

http://eetd.lbl.gov/newsletter/cbs_nl/NL9/waterworks.html

for a description of that technology. Our estimate is
that stove work and water disinfection work are complementary
and comparable technology transfer activities for a
national program aimed at raising the village-level
standard of living.

I hope you find this informative and useful.

Sincerely,

Robert Van Buskirk

Ron Larson wrote:
>
> Hi all - I am anxious that the good work of both Robert and Crispin be
more
> exposed to the stoves list. How do you all feel about my editing a bit
and
> giving your dialog wider circulation?
>
> Bob - thanks especially for your complete reply - especially on esd. Are
> you now on "stoves" or not? Still very busy?
>
> I obviously missed something on carbon credits - and am amazed
things are
> happening on that line in Eritrea. Is that a first for stoves? Have you
> seen our discussion several weeks back on the topic of charcoal
> sequestration? Is this a professional interest at LBL also?
>
> Ron
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Robert Van Buskirk [mailto:rdvanbuskirk@lbl.gov]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 1:04 PM
> To: Crispin
> Cc: robert@punchdown.org; Margaret Pemberton-Pigott;
> ronallarson@qwest.net
> Subject: Re: From Crispin at New Dawn Engineering, Swaziland
>
> Dear Crispin:
>
> Thank you for the email, you are doing very good work.
>
> But reviewing your stove, you may have several difficulties introducing
> it in Ethiopia.
>
> First, the big fuel user in Eritrea is the mogogo stove for cooking
> injera, not a stove for cooking in pots or bread which are your
> current designs.
>
> See figure 2 of:
>
> http://www.punchdown.org/rvb/papers/ECEEEPaper6,178C.html
>
> for the in-built stove. It is not really clear, but there should
> be a chimney, and the rectangle below the stove is an air inlet.
> The round lid covers a flat cooking plat (which currently is clay,
> because it cooks better quality injera.
>
> Your stove is applicable to about 1/4 to 1/3 of household cooking
> energy use in Ethiopia.
>
> Perhaps your stove would be best applied to charcoal-based cooking
> in the better-off households in urban areas.
>
> Carbon credit funding is a long process, where you need the active
> support of a government agency. It will probably take you up to
> 2-5 years to establish the relationship with the government
> agency that would facilitate the carbon credit trading. Also
> trading volumes are low. So it is uncertain if you would get a
> lot of funding.
>
> In Eritrea, the Eritrean Department of Energy is 100% behind the
> project and it will probably be successful in initially getting
> a few tens of thousands of income through carbon credit trading
> for stoves. If this can increase to hundreds of thousands or
> a few million per year of revenues is unclear.
>
> Secondly, your stove will need to deliver better
> price performance from a Jiko-type stove that they introduced
> a while ago, or an efficient mogogo that they had been working
> on a few years ago.
>
> A web site on the charcoal stove work in Ethiopia is at:
>
> http://www.esd.co.uk/portfolio/CharcoalStove.htm
> http://www.esd.co.uk/portfolio/PovertyStoves.htm
>
> And the mogogo stove is described at:
>
> http://www.esd.co.uk/portfolio/BiomassStove.htm
>
> It appears to be a fast-growing enterprise, so that you
> can probably carve out a profitable niche.
>
> You should also meet with the Ethiopian Ministry of Mines
> and Energy.
>
> I hope this helps.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Robert Van Buskirk
>
> Crispin wrote:
> >
> > Dear Robert
> >
> > I am the manager of a couple of little AT companies in Swaziland which
> have
> > been looking into wood stoves. We are now making a pretty good unit
which
> > is called the Shisa Stove (for the moment - until the marketing guys get
a
> > chance to name it something saleable).
> >
> > We have been getting plaudits since the Summit in JHB for this device
> which
> > is a wood/ charcoal/biomass briquette/dung fired single sunken-pot stove
> > with pre-heated primary and secondary air. It is being incorporated
into
> > the ongoing ProBEC programme immediately in 6 countries and I am of
course
> > introducing it into Swaziland. We have a renewable energy association
> here
> > (I am the treasurer at the moment) which is promoting fuel efficient
> stoves.
> >
> > I understand that the demands in the Ethiopian environment are similar
in
> > some respects and not in others.
> >
> > There is a now project stating in Addis under the BTG people (Robert
> > v.d.Plas etc) and he happens to be in town this week on holiday. He has
> > asked me to take one stove to Piet Visser (at the Ghion (sp?) Hotel) to
> see
> > how they might use it.
> >
> > I am not sure how they treat new technologies fromn private companies
but
> > anyway I wil bring one to leave in town perhaps with a contracted
> > manufacturer.
> >
> > It so happens that my wife Margaret margaretpigott@hotmail.com is in
Addis
> > at the moment giving training courses. I will join her next week.
> Perhaps
> > you could call her if you are actually still in Ethiopia.
> 00251-1-61-72-86
> > or 00251-1-61-32-86.
> >
> > Robert met with her a few weeks ago. Not all the information he
provided
> to
> > me agrees with what I saw on your site, and frankly, you and I seem to
> agree
> > more.
> >
> > We are trying to commercialize the stove in Johannesburg as soon as we
> can.
> > It will retail in the $20 range, and will hopefully be manufactured in
the
> > thousands. It is based on a 25 litre pail as the stove body.
> >
> > It would be great if we could meet while I am in Addis, but I am only
> there
> > from the 22nd to the 1st of Nov. And much of that time is locked down.
> >
> > It is my great hope to get together a CDM project for the introduction
of
> > wood and coal stoves in Southern Africa. It looks daunting at this
time,
> > having hefted the documents. Are these things possible to get funded?
> >
> > You can see a bit of what we are doing at www.newdawn-engineering.com
and
> > see the Stove tests, Basintuthu Tests for a pic of the second-last
> > manifestation of the single pot stove.
> >
> > Stay well!
> >
> > Sincerely
> >
> > Crispin Pemberton-Pigott
> > crispin@newdawn.sz

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From ronallarson at qwest.net Thu Oct 17 06:21:06 2002
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:20 2004
Subject: Good by my friends
In-Reply-To: <000401c275cc$bfca9ca0$793fefc3@mshome.net>
Message-ID: <NGBBKDEHILILFNJPHEFIOEPBCCAA.ronallarson@qwest.net>

Dr. Yury:

This is both great news and sad news. Great that you can be an
adviser/consultant (who I strongly recommend to any international group
listening in - especially on large scale clean charcoal production) - but
sad that you will be dropping off the list, (It is much better for you to
do this "dropping" from your end by using the instruction at the end of this
[List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>]. If that doesn't
work, we will do something here.) I hope you will find a way to
periodically review our dialog - and chip in again. Thanks for your kind
words below. Would you also please send again your postal address.

If anyone is listening who can think of a way for Dr. Yury to stay on the
list at no cost, it would be $ (rubles) well spent. Dr. Yury once offered to
host another stoves conference and I want very much to go to St.
Petersburg - which sounds to me a lot like Dr. Yury himself.

To others-about twenty on this list met Dr. Yury at the Karve's stoves
conference in Pune several years ago. We found him to be a wonderfully warm
gentleman - who looked about 48 - not 68. His was the suggestion the Karves
followed in their in-field leaf pyrolysis approach. He has added greatly
to our list dialog and we shall miss him.

-----Original Message-----
From: Yudkevich Yury [mailto:woodcoal@mailbox.alkor.ru]
Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2002 4:51 AM
To: stoves
Subject: Good by my friends

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From psanders at ilstu.edu Thu Oct 17 06:37:36 2002
From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:20 2004
Subject: Burning coconut HUSKS
In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20021016163307.01bdee00@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20021017092133.01d65370@mail.ilstu.edu>

Stovers,

In Mozambique I have burned (gasified) dried coconut husks in the following
situation.

Tried "somewhat shredded" and it seemed to burn too quickly (too loosely
packed.) Then I tried "chunks" that were machete chopped to about 8 cm by
4 cm pieces as thick as the husk grows naturally. They seemed to burn much
better.

The resultant charcoal included physical pieces that resembled the fibrous
original material.

I only had 4 chances to burn any husks, and never in a well controlled
situation where I could experiment very much. Always with "spectators"
(MZ energy people, Crispin in Swaziland, some USAID folk, and a conference
crowd).

My gasifier there is about 80 cm tall with a fuel chamber about 20 cm in
diameter. That chamber is in a bucket rigged for preheating of the
secondary air. But I know that my air supply is too restricted, so I must
enlarge the air supply system. To overcome that air supply problem in this
early prototype unit, I utilize a "raft / air mattress inflator" which is
12 volt operated, made in China, and costs about US$10 for one, in a South
Africa camping goods store. It actually give too much air-power.

As long as I am careful not to let the flaming gases extinguish, there is
very little smoke.

Note, this is a true gasifier. Top lighted. pyrolysis several cm below
any flaming of the gases.

The amount of heat was very great, and I am sure that a village bakery
could fire its ovens easily with this fuel and gasifier (after design
refinements.)

Request for help: Anyone IN the USA who has a supply of dry coconut
husks? Husks cannot be shipped in from overseas. Any Stovers (readers)
in southern California, Florida, or elsewhere with coconut trees?

Paul

Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
Rotary University Teacher Grantee to Mozambique >10 mo of 2001-2003
Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders

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From crispin at newdawn.sz Thu Oct 17 07:16:59 2002
From: crispin at newdawn.sz (Crispin)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:20 2004
Subject: Coconut husk charcoal
In-Reply-To: <004e01c275cd$d60b3780$4847083e@42v2501>
Message-ID: <005801c275f1$d4f52940$2a47fea9@md>

Dear ELK

>...the only way to burn husk without smoke is in a strong
>wind or with forced air.

I would like to say that there is another way - to use preheated primary and
secondary air. This we achieved some years ago and it burns cleanly, but as
there is only one coconut palm in the country, fuel was used up within a few
minutes. I have pictures to show it working as a principle which is where
we stopped.

Paul is working on gasifying it and I like what I saw. It only needs
refinement. I still prefer not to go the gassing route because it is an
unstable flame, but perhaps a method of getting a mantle into the stream
will solve that.

Regards
Crispin

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From psanders at ilstu.edu Thu Oct 17 08:15:50 2002
From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:20 2004
Subject: Fwd: Re: Burning coconut HUSKS
Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20021017090658.01d64600@mail.ilstu.edu>

Forwarded at the request of Richard Stanley.

I note that I received this message directly, and that I did NOT receive
a second copy via the Stoves List Serve. I do not know why his
messages are not making it to the List. (Maybe he should try
a lower-case "s" in "stoves@......). Might
make a difference.

Paul

Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 05:36:39 -0700
(PDT)
From: richard stanley <legacyfoundwapi@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Burning coconut HUSKS
To: "Paul S. Anderson" <psanders@ilstu.edu>, Peter
Singfield <snkm@btl.net>,
Stoves@crest.org
Sun-Internet-MTA: Lines longer than SMTP allows found and
truncated.

Paul et al.

Ref burnability of coconut husks. The prevaling wisdom of our group seems
to say chop it then, either carbonise it and burn it or compress it and
burn it.

Try the wet processz for a change ! After chopping , try retting it with
the addition of wetted browned field grasses (to accelerate
decomposition), then slurry it in water and then compress as you
dewater it (at 15 bars) . When one uses this approach , there will be few
complaints about using coconut husks, believe me.

Paul, please copy onto the stoves newsgroup as only about 25% of my
messages are getting posted directly.

Richard Stanley

"Paul S. Anderson" wrote:
Stovers,

Coconut husks are notoriously poor for fuel, right?

At 07:07 PM 10/15/02 -0500, Peter Singfield wrote:

>By the way all -- just finished firing up and "proving" my
new "plate"
>drier that fuels on just about any biomass -- but in this case --
coconut
>husks and nut shell.

This is with his long box and chimney.

I too have had some success with burning coconut husks in the Juntos

gasifier (20 cm diameter chamber about 60 cm tall (with blower support at

times.)

What experiences (successful OR not) have others had, and in what
circumstances?

Paul

Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
Rotary University Teacher Grantee to Mozambique >10 mo of
2001-2003
Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
E-mail: psand New
DSL
Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo!

From ronallarson at qwest.net Thu Oct 17 09:15:04 2002
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:20 2004
Subject: Forwarding Van Buskirk on Eritrean stove costs
Message-ID: <NGBBKDEHILILFNJPHEFIOEPDCCAA.ronallarson@qwest.net>

Stovers (cc Bob):

Bob has kindly forwarded the answer to my question on the injera-cooking
stove costs - saying:

"Re: costs, the design process was done locally under the
constraints of local economics, where local means in
Eritrea. And the initial design which was developed
during the independence war was already a very low
cost design.

Now, about 1/3 of production is in the village and
2/3 consists of materials made outside of the village.
The ERTC constantly searches out those national businesses
that can produce the highest quality materials at lowest
cost. So cost-optimization is integrated into the design
process, it is not a separate step. Given that the cost
constraint (of about $20/stove) is initially satisfied,
design effort can focus on improving quality within the
cost constraint.

Sincerely,

Robert VB"

(RWL): just one comment - which is that $1 goes a long way in Eritrea and
Ethiopia. One probably could not sell this stove in the US for maybe $100.
But that does not diminish the wonderful success of Bob and his volunteer
group. Bob - we look forward to the promised report after you return in
January.

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From crispin at newdawn.sz Thu Oct 17 09:19:05 2002
From: crispin at newdawn.sz (Crispin)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:20 2004
Subject: Forwarding Van Buskirk on Eritrean stove costs
Message-ID: <003a01c27602$0b348a40$2002fea9@home>

Dear Stovers

Am I going to have trouble taking a stove with me through the airport on a
tourist visa?

Regards
Crispin

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From tmiles at trmiles.com Thu Oct 17 10:41:35 2002
From: tmiles at trmiles.com (Tom Miles)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:20 2004
Subject: Burning coconut HUSKS
In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20021017090658.01d64600@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <01df01c2760c$57219920$6601a8c0@tommain>

Paul,

Thanks for the forward. Richard was trying to post
from a new address that was not recognized by the mail server. I have added
that address so that he should now be able to post directly.

For those of you who use another address or
server from home or while travelling (like yahoo or hotmail), or for those
who access their mail from more than one computer account in a
university (with a different IP address than your regular subscription) we
can "allow" more than one address on the list for a single subscriber but we
have to subscribe it with a special command as if it was a new subscriber. You
will receive only one message from the server.

So if a message bounces because you
are not at your regular address just yell for help and we'll try to fix
it.

Regards,

Tom Miles

<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
----- Original Message -----
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black">From:
Paul S.
Anderson
To: <A title=stoves@crest.org
href="mailto:stoves@crest.org">stoves@crest.org
Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2002 7:11
AM
Subject: Fwd: Re: Burning coconut
HUSKS
Forwarded at the request of Richard Stanley. I
note that I received this message directly, and that I did NOT receive a
second copy via the Stoves List Serve. I do not know why his messages
are not making it to the List. (Maybe he should try a lower-case
"s" in "stoves@......). Might make a
difference.Paul
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 05:36:39 -0700
(PDT)From: richard stanley <legacyfoundwapi@yahoo.com>Subject:
Re: Burning coconut HUSKSTo: "Paul S. Anderson"
<psanders@ilstu.edu>, Peter Singfield
<snkm@btl.net>, Stoves@crest.orgSun-Internet-MTA: Lines
longer than SMTP allows found and truncated.Paul et al. Ref
burnability of coconut husks. The prevaling wisdom of our group seems to say
chop it then, either carbonise it and burn it or compress it and burn it.
Try the wet processz for a change ! After chopping , try retting it
with the addition of wetted browned field grasses (to accelerate
decomposition), then slurry it in water and then compress as you
dewater it (at 15 bars) . When one uses this approach , there will be few
complaints about using coconut husks, believe me. Paul, please copy
onto the stoves newsgroup as only about 25% of my messages are getting
posted directly. Richard Stanley "Paul S. Anderson"
wrote:
Stovers,Coconut husks are
notoriously poor for fuel, right?At 07:07 PM 10/15/02 -0500, Peter
Singfield wrote:>By the way all -- just finished firing up and
"proving" my new "plate">drier that fuels on just about any biomass
-- but in this case -- coconut>husks and nut shell.This is
with his long box and chimney.I too have had some success with
burning coconut husks in the Juntos gasifier (20 cm diameter chamber
about 60 cm tall (with blower support at times.)What
experiences (successful OR not) have others had, and in what
circumstances?PaulPaul S. Anderson, Ph.D.,
Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00Rotary University Teacher
Grantee to Mozambique >10 mo of 2001-2003Dept of Geography -
Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State UniversityNormal, IL 61790-4400
Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310E-mail: psand New <A
href="http://rd.yahoo.com/evt=1207/*http://sbc.yahoo.com/">DSL Internet
Access from SBC & Yahoo!
Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 -
7/00
Rotary University Teacher Grantee to Mozambique >10 mo of
2001-2003
Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360;
FAX: 309-438-5310E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: <A
href="http://www.ilstu.edu/~psanders"
EUDORA="AUTOURL">www.ilstu.edu/~psanders

From andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com Thu Oct 17 15:12:40 2002
From: andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com (AJH)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:20 2004
Subject: elk's Roller briquetter
In-Reply-To: <005001c26c4b$95f7fec0$2a47fea9@md>
Message-ID: <ms9uquc81h0088mhlr4o5ab9uof0s2tl29@4ax.com>

On Mon, 14 Oct 2002 10:33:43 +0300, "elk" <elk@wananchi.com> wrote:

>
>
>It wouldn't produce an acceptable BBQ - type product. I think the machine
>was designed for producing animal feed- though we'll never know. A 50mm X
>25mm by 7mm object isn't really a briquette- it's more of a pellet.

Pellets suit the developed world market better as they flow, 7mm is
the right thickness, the urea prills mentioned by Karve would be about
right, so your beast would need making good with hard facing and
machining (eroding) to make pellets. I said it was an art to make the
char just the right consistency, Karve mentions difficulties in
feeding, I wonder if this is why the reconstituted coal machines have
rollers in the order of 1m diameter?

The power requirement appears to be in the order of 30% of that
required for densifying biomass.

AJH

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From andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com Thu Oct 17 15:14:18 2002
From: andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com (AJH)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:20 2004
Subject: straw briquettes
In-Reply-To: <003801c26dcc$25d0ebc0$2cdafea9@42v2501>
Message-ID: <g4auqushd1h7ji2pcu3mdtd84i04jvqlj4@4ax.com>

On Mon, 14 Oct 2002 20:13:47 +0200, "Crispin" <crispin@newdawn.sz>
wrote:

>Dear Andrew
>
>I heard anecdotal evidence of a very low cost string bound straw 'sausage'
>'briquette' being used to cook in Kampala restaurants. It was placed into a
>fairly tight fitting metal can and top lit. The diameter was on the order
>of 5 inches. It apparenetly burned very cleanly and was the cheapest fuel
>around..

Nice one! Just shows most things have been thought of. I wonder if it
predates the Reed-Larson idd stove? Does it burn out the char?

AJH

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From andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com Thu Oct 17 15:15:53 2002
From: andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com (AJH)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:21 2004
Subject: straw briquettes
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20021014151639.009b5ce0@wgs1.btl.net>
Message-ID: <n8auquc0se7j9gou08bvghku1ic0kh6d56@4ax.com>

On Tue, 15 Oct 2002 00:58:55 +0200, "Crispin" <crispin@newdawn.sz>
wrote:

>It is an uncompressed biomass slug with all the ends of the grass pointing
>upwards. This no doubt affects the way it burns.

Certainly, the idd principle requires an even airflow up through the
biomass, the straw would provide enough is loosely bound, this
controlled flow of primary air is what limits the offgas production.

<snip>

>This was a ridiculously simply solution and I couldn't figure out why it
>burned so well as the air supply was minimal

I think you are only looking at the primary air supply, the secondary
air is supplied to a diffuse flame, this is why idd stoves are prone
to blowing out, remember the secondary air is a lot more then primary
air.

AJH

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From andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com Thu Oct 17 15:17:15 2002
From: andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com (AJH)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:21 2004
Subject: Ethiopian Woks
In-Reply-To: <004701c273d2$9e73a2a0$1246fea9@home>
Message-ID: <1nauqukm8qs151o1125m86p7nvtu2efbg4@4ax.com>

On Mon, 14 Oct 2002 21:58:30 -0600, "Ron Larson"
<ronallarson@qwest.net> wrote:
>This form of heat control is of course not
>possible with clay because of the clay's poor thermal conductivity - but it
>might make sense with a thin metal mogogo. But there may be a possible way
>to cook enjira something like we cook pizzas - by sliding a thin round (or
>square) plate with the "wet" enjira "cream" into and out of (when ready) a
>more thermally insulating "oven". Now we are talking real cultural change -
>and you won't have time to do that while in Addis.

Just a small observation about this use of a clay mogogo, rather than
require the fire to conduct heat through it, would it be acceptable to
use two mogogos, one being preheated, in the fire box, under the one
being used? The mogogos being thus used in a regenerative AND
conductive mode. If the cooking takes place over an extended period,
once a mogogo is at operating temperature, the only waste heat is that
lost up the chimney, if the remainder of the stove is well insulated.
Now what temperature does the mogogo have to attain?

AJH

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From andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com Thu Oct 17 15:18:42 2002
From: andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com (AJH)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:21 2004
Subject: Biomass Grease Gun Gasifier Stove! (BGGGS)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20021015150626.00934100@wgs1.btl.net>
Message-ID: <56buqu0ncjvhh48o6hf3jsf37rt72prer4@4ax.com>

On Tue, 15 Oct 2002 23:31:33 +0100, "Gavin Gulliver-Goodall"
<Gavin@roseplac.worldonline.co.uk> wrote:

>I like that idea!
>I have access here in the Uk to briquetted sawdust. 40mm diameter

I measure them at 62.5mm

> very dense

Yes, very dry and they sink in water, I think their density compares
with the ring die produced pellets.

>I am wondering if I have some 40mm pipe- perhaps AJH has - he is far better
>with tincanium than I and he has briquettes unless hes burnt them all
>already!

I have "tested" a few,

>However these briquettes when burnt in the open expand as they burn,

I do not think they expand diametrically, they just separate into the
"wads" of sawdust in each ram stroke (about 10mm).

>allowing the small particles to char and gasifier quickly- you get a lovely
>bright yellow flame with no smoke for a while then a duller CO flame until
>there is nothing left but a tiny amount of ash.
>I think the hole in the middle for primary air might be needed for the BGGGS
>(is that B3GS?)
>Could it not be a top burning design -Spring and cylinder below with mesh
>grate fixed so that it is the right distance below the pot for max heat

If used in an idd mode they would need primary air holes. I may give
it a try some time if I get enough round tuits.

Peter Verhaart built an idd stove, in Jakarta? with a jack to advance
the fuel, it may still be on the website.

AJH

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From andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com Thu Oct 17 15:20:15 2002
From: andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com (AJH)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:21 2004
Subject: Good by my friends
In-Reply-To: <000401c275cc$bfca9ca0$793fefc3@mshome.net>
Message-ID: <1sbuquca8htonnnt6b9ggls7tsa47lkeg1@4ax.com>

On Thu, 17 Oct 2002 08:22:29 -0600, "Ron Larson"
<ronallarson@qwest.net> wrote:

>Dr. Yury:
>
> This is both great news and sad news.

I too will miss your posts and hope you have an enjoyable retirement.

> If anyone is listening who can think of a way for Dr. Yury to stay on the
>list at no cost, it would be $ (rubles) well spent.

I assume the problem is that once out of the academic environment web
access is difficult in Russia. If this is because dial-up ISPs are
expensive or unavailable I can think of two possibilities. One is
enabling, and initiating, a telnet session from a computer which
enjoys cheap calls to Russia, voice calls are available from UK at
GBP0.05/minute, I do not know what data rate the compression would
support. The other is more expensive but I know some roaming
agreements allow for prepaid cellphones to have data access on a per M
Byte basis.

As I seldom travel abroad I have no real feel for this problem.

AJH

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From andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com Thu Oct 17 15:21:42 2002
From: andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com (AJH)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:21 2004
Subject: Biodiesel
In-Reply-To: <000001c27273$9346ee60$5044083e@42v2501>
Message-ID: <lpcuqukfbjfbcdp3hq53r8t6abnaqvfp6i@4ax.com>

On Sun, 13 Oct 2002 21:50:14 -0500, Harmon Seaver
<hseaver@cybershamanix.com> wrote:

>On Sun, Oct 13, 2002 at 09:26:27PM +0100, AJH wrote:
>(snip)
>> fact that their fuel value is more than 10% below fossil fuels because
>> they are already partially oxygenated.
>
> I'm not sure where you're getting this from, the cetane rating of biodiesel
>is higher than dino diesel.

Cetane rating and octane rating are both measures of "quality" of
ignitability, they have little direct bearing on the energy density of
the fuel. Though I do suspect the higher octane rating fuels will have
less calorific value because the chemical modifiers used to reduce the
onset of detonation will tend to have lower energy.

>Ethanol requires a much higher compression engine

It does not really require it, it's just that it will withstand a
higher compression pressure without detonation, the higher compression
ratio will enable a higher thermodynamic efficiency from the engine.

>than gasoline, but given the proper engine modifications I would think that it
>would have greater fuel value -- it's the fuel of choice for racing, especially
>when nitrated, which adds even more oxygen.

Ant this is very much the point, every oxygen atom combined with the
fuel reduces its calorific value as that bond is no longer available
to release heat from the fuel, the nitrous or nitrated fuel issue is
more one of changing the mass flow from the intake air to a component
of the fuel. The nitrated compounds are more oxygen dense than the air
and breaking the nitrogen to oxygen bond is easy, making the oxygen
available to combine with any carbon or hydrogen in the fuel, which in
the case of nitro methane is in the same molecule. The SI engine just
needs a supply of working gas and heat, it does not care whether that
working gas comes from the air or a liquid fuel.

> But the point is if you are making them yourself, they are more or less free,
>so even if they gave considerably less mpg, it would still be worth
>it. Especially since both ethanol and biodiesel pollute a great deal less than
>dino fuels, and CO2 negative -- great for the environment and great for your
>pocketbook, screw the government, they're just another criminal gang anyway.

I am in no way criticising the use of bio oils as a transport fuel, I
was just commenting on the legislative position in UK. My view is that
the extra bulk of a bio oil derived fuel is small cost if it reduces
pollutants. One of the reasons burning can be more complete with bio
diesel is the very fact that it is already partially oxygenated. The
side effect of this is that it cannot be as energy dense as a pure
hydrocarbon. I know I had a problem seeing what was in the food in US,
here in EU countries we have listings of ingredients, a glance at a
bottle of canola oil shows its cv 9 kcal/g which I make
10.47kWhr(t)/kg, gasoil is 12.6kWhr(t)/kg.

>
> I think you'll find that most biofuelers are also quite enthusiastic about
>the environmental benefits as well. But of course we want cheaper fuel, who
>doesn't? If they were just after cheaper fuel they'd be running home heating
>fuel in their diesels tho -- that isn't taxed like road diesel is it?

Some do and get caught as it is dyed red, and no it is taxed at a much
lower rate.

> That's only because they use chemicals. If farmers returned to natural
>farming, they could make a living without the subsidies. The Amish do it.

This planet supports the few of us in the opulence we are used to
because agribusiness costs are held down by cheap energy, without the
direct conversion to nitrogenous fertiliser of raw energy and the
ability to transport fertilisers and pesticides this earth would not
support 2 billion souls.

This it OT for stoves, there have been a couple of interesting posts
on bioenergy about the socio economic effects of a hydrogen economy
and renewable energy, I suggest we follow up there.

AJH

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From andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com Thu Oct 17 15:23:02 2002
From: andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com (AJH)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:21 2004
Subject: Theory and terminology questions about combustion
In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20021015155153.01f588f0@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <9mfuqugc0ssmpvspqdm65mb4lr0phs96ua@4ax.com>

On Tue, 15 Oct 2002 16:22:22 -0500, "Paul S. Anderson" <psand
>
>1. Can regular biomass (I am not referring to the charcoal that is a stage
>of biomass consumption) be consumed in fire ***without first undergoing the
>release of the gases (pyrolysis and gasification)*** that are subsequently
>combusted when mixed with oxygen and sufficient ignition?

Possibly if burned as a fine powder the combustion would be so short
that there would be no way of separating the reactions.

> In other words,
>even in a regular "fire" of biomass, is it not true that the gases are
>created first, even if the gases are almost immediately "burned"? Hence,
>there is no "fire" without gasification first.

OK in general

>
>If yes to the above, then all stoves COULD be considered to be gasifiers,
>and we therefore need to clarify that what we have been calling "gasifier
>stoves" are ones in which ***the creation of the gases takes place in a
>location at least slightly and control-ably removed in space and in time
>from the point of the combustion of those gases***.

I think this is the distinction that has been made in the past.
>
>2. What are the real differences between "producer gas" and "wood-gas" and

Producer gas is generally taken to be CO and Nitrogen formed by the
gasification of carbon by air, water gas is H2 and CO formed by the
gasification of carbon by steam. Woodgas is a mixture of these
reactions and chemicals plus the pyrolysis (offgas) products of
thermal decomposition, it contains many compounds ranging from weak
organic acids, alcohols etc through to tars as vapours. Gasifiers
making gas for other than thermal uses attempt to "crack" these
pyrolysis compounds thermally to reduce them to simple gaseous
compounds.

>pyrolysis / gasification of any DRY plant-origin biomass.

This is phytomass whether wet or dry.

> (We do not do
>much gasification of dry animal-origin biomass.)

This is zoomass and yes we do, there is much discussion on GAS-L of
sewage sludge gasification. I suspect one of the most successful
gasifiers operating is in a chrome leather works where the off cuts
are recycled as heat and the chromium is recovered commercially from
the ash.

>
>Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique

How many marks out of ten do I score teach :-)?

AJH

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From woodcoal at mailbox.alkor.ru Fri Oct 18 00:53:46 2002
From: woodcoal at mailbox.alkor.ru (Yudkevich Yury)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:21 2004
Subject: Good by my friends
In-Reply-To: <000401c275cc$bfca9ca0$793fefc3@mshome.net>
Message-ID: <005e01c27683$e6ad36e0$6f3fefc3@mshome.net>

Dear friends,
I am grateful to all for warm words. I have sent unsubscribe. I keep an
opportunity to use Email. I shall manage to find means for short sessions. I
shall look stoves periodically. I have received freedom from the current
duties. I hope, that my physical and intellectual condition will allow to
work actively some years. I need in the orders at the field of technology of
charcoal and I offer the services. I want to pay attention those who wants
to establish contact: I can read in English, but I do not understand speech
almost . It is a problem of many old people in Russia. The youth speaks and
understands much better.
I inform my home post address to the one who asked it. Russia, 194100,
app.120, h. 61-2, Lesnoy prospekt, S.-Petersburg. A home telephone number
7+812+2454781. The information arrived on a fax 7+812+5500784 will be always
handed to me.
Thank to you dear friends. My work with you has given me a lot of useful
information, has brought many new friends and has shown, that all earth our
common house about which is necessary to care. I do not speak "goodbye". I
speak " before new meetings "

Yury Yudkevich, Russia <woodcoal@mailbox.alkor.ru>

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From pverhaart at optusnet.com.au Fri Oct 18 03:45:11 2002
From: pverhaart at optusnet.com.au (Peter Verhaart)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:21 2004
Subject: Good by my friends
In-Reply-To: <000401c275cc$bfca9ca0$793fefc3@mshome.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20021018213646.00a96780@localhost>

Dear Yury,

Like others on the List, I too am sad to say goodbye to you. I hope you
will make occasional reappearances on the Stoves List.

You have made a great contribution to our knowledge and insight in the
charcoal making process, Besides that I have great respect for the way you
have mastered the English language.

I am sure I am not the only one who feels we are losing a good friend.

Wishing you all the best.

Peter Verhaart

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From elk at wananchi.com Fri Oct 18 04:05:42 2002
From: elk at wananchi.com (elk)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:21 2004
Subject: Good by my friends... ?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20021018213646.00a96780@localhost>
Message-ID: <009d01c2769e$4602e3a0$2cdafea9@42v2501>

Yury;

Where there's a will there's a way. As a list moderator I refuse to
completely sever our connection with you, and will be forwarding the more
interesting correspondence on charcoal from this list to your e-mail
address. I'll also be happy to submit your communications in return to all
the 'Stovers'.

Now get out of the office and relax for a while, O.K.?

Best Regards;

elk

--------------------------
Elsen L. Karstad
elk@wananchi.com
www.chardust.com
Nairobi Kenya

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From psanders at ilstu.edu Fri Oct 18 05:59:50 2002
From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:21 2004
Subject: History of very small true gasifier units
In-Reply-To: <004d01c273ae$66d787e0$2a47fea9@md>
Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20021018084349.01a9ef00@mail.ilstu.edu>

Hi,

I have become interested in the history of the development of very small
true gasifier combustion units.

But I question every claim for "gasifiers" because the definitions are so
weak. For example, I give below the recent messages from Crispin and AJH.

At 12:08 AM 10/18/02 +0100, AJH wrote in reply:

>Nice one! Just shows most things have been thought of. I wonder if it
>predates the Reed-Larson idd stove? Does it burn out the char?
>
>AJH

My comment and question: Just because it is top-lit does not make it a
gasifier. There would need to be air intentionally entering at the bottom,
to come up through the biomass (straw), and create gases specifically to be
flared later (milli-seconds or longer) when secondary air is intentionally
introduced.

I suspect that the "can with straw" did NOT have air entering at the
bottom, but because the straw is so much like loose paper, the air from the
top that could reach the burning zone was providing sufficient primary air
AND simultaneously providing the secondary air needed to get the flame.

Anyone with further (and first hand) information about the "can with straw"
combustion unit, please send it to me (via Stoves List is best so that all
can comment.) (I am sending this also to the "Gasification List Serve" for
comments from that perspective.)

Meanwhile, I would like to hear from anyone about OTHER very small
gasifiers, including when where who what etc. I am sure that some of you
experimented with the likes of Tom Reed's IDD gasifier. I will post my
1-page "Short introduction to the Juntos Gasifier Stove" very soon,
probably today, without pictures so it will transmit easily.

Also, I refer to my previous posting of 3 days ago about "Theory and
terminology questions about combustion". Not a single comment from anyone yet.

Paul
Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
Rotary University Teacher Grantee to Mozambique >10 mo of 2001-2003
Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders

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From psanders at ilstu.edu Fri Oct 18 06:41:13 2002
From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:21 2004
Subject: Theory and terminology questions about combustion
In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20021015155153.01f588f0@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20021018093543.01bf4990@mail.ilstu.edu>

Andrew,

Thanks for your informative reply. (I did not see it before my previous
message.) YOU and a few others can get the highest scores. People like me
need the tutoring!!!

I will leave "zoomass" to others, but wonder if sewerage (and dung and
feces) is "zoo- or phyto-" (Not a topic for this list serve.)

Thanks for the clarification about producer gas and water gas. Clearly the
"very small gasifiers" such as mine do NOT yield producer gas.

Is it acceptable to use the term "wood-gas" if the phyto-mass is actually
corn cobs or other clearly NON-wood material? Is the gasification of
straw (being discussed currently) producing "wood-gas"? If we start
speaking of phyto-gas (or "fito-gas" in many of the Romance languages), we
should be clear that we include "wood-gas" and other
"dry-vegetative-matter-gas".

:-)) No interest in the term "vegie-gas"? I thought it was cute.

Thanks again.

Paul

At 12:10 AM 10/18/02 +0100, AJH wrote:
>On Tue, 15 Oct 2002 16:22:22 -0500, "Paul S. Anderson" <psand
> >
> >1. Can regular biomass (I am not referring to the charcoal that is a stage
> >of biomass consumption) be consumed in fire ***without first undergoing the
> >release of the gases (pyrolysis and gasification)*** that are subsequently
> >combusted when mixed with oxygen and sufficient ignition?
>
>Possibly if burned as a fine powder the combustion would be so short
>that there would be no way of separating the reactions.
>
> > In other words,
> >even in a regular "fire" of biomass, is it not true that the gases are
> >created first, even if the gases are almost immediately "burned"? Hence,
> >there is no "fire" without gasification first.
>
>OK in general
>
> >
> >If yes to the above, then all stoves COULD be considered to be gasifiers,
> >and we therefore need to clarify that what we have been calling "gasifier
> >stoves" are ones in which ***the creation of the gases takes place in a
> >location at least slightly and control-ably removed in space and in time
> >from the point of the combustion of those gases***.
>
>I think this is the distinction that has been made in the past.
> >
> >2. What are the real differences between "producer gas" and "wood-gas" and
>
>Producer gas is generally taken to be CO and Nitrogen formed by the
>gasification of carbon by air, water gas is H2 and CO formed by the
>gasification of carbon by steam. Woodgas is a mixture of these
>reactions and chemicals plus the pyrolysis (offgas) products of
>thermal decomposition, it contains many compounds ranging from weak
>organic acids, alcohols etc through to tars as vapours. Gasifiers
>making gas for other than thermal uses attempt to "crack" these
>pyrolysis compounds thermally to reduce them to simple gaseous
>compounds.
>
> >pyrolysis / gasification of any DRY plant-origin biomass.
>
>This is phytomass whether wet or dry.
>
> > (We do not do
> >much gasification of dry animal-origin biomass.)
>
>This is zoomass and yes we do, there is much discussion on GAS-L of
>sewage sludge gasification. I suspect one of the most successful
>gasifiers operating is in a chrome leather works where the off cuts
>are recycled as heat and the chromium is recovered commercially from
>the ash.
>
> >
> >Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique
>
>How many marks out of ten do I score teach :-)?
>
>AJH
>
>-
>Stoves List Archives and Website:
>http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200209/
>http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
> >
>Stoves List Moderators:
>Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
>Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
>
>Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
>http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
>http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
>http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon
>
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> >
>For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
> >http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Chambers/Chambers.htm

Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
Rotary University Teacher Grantee to Mozambique >10 mo of 2001-2003
Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders

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From crispin at newdawn.sz Fri Oct 18 13:55:50 2002
From: crispin at newdawn.sz (Crispin)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:21 2004
Subject: Shisa Stove Enjera cooker
Message-ID: <005801c276f1$e9110d80$3ea5fea9@home>

Dear Stovers

Well, I have given it a shot - we made a ring from 10mm round bar (R10 it is
called) and stood it on three legs so that there is a 20mm space between the
top lip of the stove and the underside of the ring. The Enjera cooker plate
will sit on top of the ring.

The gas exit area of the space is 285dia x Pi x 20mm = 180 cm^2 which is
roughly three times the inlet area when wide open. This means the velocity
of the combustion gasses escaping through the gap will be relatively high
compared with the velocity in other parts of the stove.

My hope is that the speed will carry heat rapidly away from the centre
towards the edges and result in a more even heating in the outer areas. The
lid of the can may be used as a heat conducting shield under the centre of
the cooking plate by plunking it top of the ring before putting on the
cooking plate. Varying the thickness of the plate under the centre will
produce about as even a heat as one can get from a small central fire.

This layout, if it works, will enable the cook to use a different fuel - not
leaves - something smaller, hotter and more controllable. The fire will
probably be tiny - 2 to 300 gms of wood in large chunks, perhaps only one,
and well choked.

It should also burn 1/2 loads of leaves pretty well as a top lit, updraft
gasifier. The primary preheating is important for the leaves which can hold
a lot of moisture for their dry weight. Hopefully the steam condenses on
the outer portions of the clay cooking plate - a sort of heat pipe.

Regards
Crispin

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From tombreed at attbi.com Sat Oct 19 05:25:26 2002
From: tombreed at attbi.com (Tom Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:21 2004
Subject: "Pyrolysis gas" energy content and composition
In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20021015155153.01f588f0@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <00a101c27732$a826a410$a48cfd0c@TOMBREED>

Dear Paul, Andrew and All:

I agree "vegie-gas" is cute, but it is nice for all of us to be on the same
page and not invent new words if old words exist and are widely used and
understood.

I wouldn't agree that the "inverted downdraft" type of gasifier doesn't
produce producer gas, since "producer gas" can cover a multitude of sins,
but mostly indicates a 5-7 MJ/m3 gas with ~ 50% nitrogen.

If you would like to be more accurate, I would propose the terms

"Pyrolysis gas" - made from the volatiles of the biomass, but leaving the
charcoal as a by-product

It is difficult to characterize the energy content of the gas because if you
cool it you will find a high proportion of "tars". The hot gas has all the
energy value of the tars, typically much greater than the CH4, H2 and CO.
The tars are the condensible component and quite high with low volume. The
gas has a relatively low nitrogen content, since it only takes 0.5 to 1kg of
air to pyrolyse 1 kg of biomass, while it takes 1.5 kg of air to completely
gasify dry biomass. I would like to measure this more accurately someday
and hope we might do it at CPC.

I would appreciate comments from Jim Diebold, a long time pyrolyser at NREL,
now at CPC.

Yours truly,

TOM REED BEF

> Andrew,
>
> Thanks for your informative reply. (I did not see it before my previous
> message.) YOU and a few others can get the highest scores. People like
me
> need the tutoring!!!
>
> I will leave "zoomass" to others, but wonder if sewerage (and dung and
> feces) is "zoo- or phyto-" (Not a topic for this list serve.)
>
> Thanks for the clarification about producer gas and water gas. Clearly
the
> "very small gasifiers" such as mine do NOT yield producer gas.
>
> Is it acceptable to use the term "wood-gas" if the phyto-mass is actually
> corn cobs or other clearly NON-wood material? Is the gasification of
> straw (being discussed currently) producing "wood-gas"? If we start
> speaking of phyto-gas (or "fito-gas" in many of the Romance languages), we
> should be clear that we include "wood-gas" and other
> "dry-vegetative-matter-gas".
>
> :-)) No interest in the term "vegie-gas"? I thought it was cute.
>
> Thanks again.
>
> Paul
>
> At 12:10 AM 10/18/02 +0100, AJH wrote:
> >On Tue, 15 Oct 2002 16:22:22 -0500, "Paul S. Anderson" <psand
> > >
> > >1. Can regular biomass (I am not referring to the charcoal that is a
stage
> > >of biomass consumption) be consumed in fire ***without first undergoing
the
> > >release of the gases (pyrolysis and gasification)*** that are
subsequently
> > >combusted when mixed with oxygen and sufficient ignition?
> >
> >Possibly if burned as a fine powder the combustion would be so short
> >that there would be no way of separating the reactions.
> >
> > > In other words,
> > >even in a regular "fire" of biomass, is it not true that the gases are
> > >created first, even if the gases are almost immediately "burned"?
Hence,
> > >there is no "fire" without gasification first.
> >
> >OK in general
> >
> > >
> > >If yes to the above, then all stoves COULD be considered to be
gasifiers,
> > >and we therefore need to clarify that what we have been calling
"gasifier
> > >stoves" are ones in which ***the creation of the gases takes place in a
> > >location at least slightly and control-ably removed in space and in
time
> > >from the point of the combustion of those gases***.
> >
> >I think this is the distinction that has been made in the past.
> > >
> > >2. What are the real differences between "producer gas" and "wood-gas"
and
> >
> >Producer gas is generally taken to be CO and Nitrogen formed by the
> >gasification of carbon by air, water gas is H2 and CO formed by the
> >gasification of carbon by steam. Woodgas is a mixture of these
> >reactions and chemicals plus the pyrolysis (offgas) products of
> >thermal decomposition, it contains many compounds ranging from weak
> >organic acids, alcohols etc through to tars as vapours. Gasifiers
> >making gas for other than thermal uses attempt to "crack" these
> >pyrolysis compounds thermally to reduce them to simple gaseous
> >compounds.
> >
> > >pyrolysis / gasification of any DRY plant-origin biomass.
> >
> >This is phytomass whether wet or dry.
> >
> > > (We do not do
> > >much gasification of dry animal-origin biomass.)
> >
> >This is zoomass and yes we do, there is much discussion on GAS-L of
> >sewage sludge gasification. I suspect one of the most successful
> >gasifiers operating is in a chrome leather works where the off cuts
> >are recycled as heat and the chromium is recovered commercially from
> >the ash.
> >
> > >
> > >Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique
> >
> >How many marks out of ten do I score teach :-)?
> >
> >AJH
> >
> >-
> >Stoves List Archives and Website:
> >http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200209/
> >http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
> > >
> >Stoves List Moderators:
> >Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
> >Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
> >
> >Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
> >http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
> >http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
> >http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon
> >
> >List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
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> > >
> >For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
> >
>http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Chambers/Chambers.htm
>
> Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
> Rotary University Teacher Grantee to Mozambique >10 mo of 2001-2003
> Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
> Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
> E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders
>
>
> -
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> http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
> >
> Stoves List Moderators:
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> Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
>
> Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon
>
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From tombreed at attbi.com Sat Oct 19 05:41:55 2002
From: tombreed at attbi.com (Tom Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:21 2004
Subject: History of very small true gasifier units
In-Reply-To: <004d01c273ae$66d787e0$2a47fea9@md>
Message-ID: <00b601c27734$f5f05bd0$a48cfd0c@TOMBREED>

Paul and Aul:

Loosely speaking there is a lot of overlap between gasification and
combustion. 1960 cars were (vaguely) gasifiers because they burned quite
rich and could emit 10% CO-H2. Our stoves should be called "close coupled"
gasifier combustors. I do a demonstration with a cigar or cigarette that
clearly shows the difference between updraft gasification and downdraft
gasifiacation. (Then I apply mouthwash).

The distinction is not trivial since there are often tax credits for
gasification and not for combustion of biomass. Testifying in court, I
would say that if in principal you can put a septum between the gasification
section and the combustion section and remove samples of combustible gas
requiring more air, it is a gasifier. If sufficient air is supplied in one
step for "substantially" complete combustion (like the pellet stoves), it is
a combustor.

Yours, TOM REED Department of Elucidation and
Obfuscation

----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul S. Anderson" <psanders@ilstu.edu>
To: <andrew.heggie@dtn.ntl.com>; "Stoves" <stoves@crest.org>;
<gasification@crest.org>
Sent: Friday, October 18, 2002 8:09 AM
Subject: History of very small true gasifier units

> Hi,
>
> I have become interested in the history of the development of very small
> true gasifier combustion units.
>
> But I question every claim for "gasifiers" because the definitions are so
> weak. For example, I give below the recent messages from Crispin and AJH.
>
> >On Mon, 14 Oct 2002 20:13:47 +0200, "Crispin" <crispin@newdawn.sz>
> >wrote:
> >
> > >Dear Andrew
> > >
> > >I heard anecdotal evidence of a very low cost string bound straw
'sausage'
> > >'briquette' being used to cook in Kampala restaurants. It was placed
into a
> > >fairly tight fitting metal can and top lit. The diameter was on the
order
> > >of 5 inches. It apparenetly burned very cleanly and was the cheapest
fuel
> > >around..
>
> At 12:08 AM 10/18/02 +0100, AJH wrote in reply:
>
> >Nice one! Just shows most things have been thought of. I wonder if it
> >predates the Reed-Larson idd stove? Does it burn out the char?
> >
> >AJH
>
> My comment and question: Just because it is top-lit does not make it a
> gasifier. There would need to be air intentionally entering at the
bottom,
> to come up through the biomass (straw), and create gases specifically to
be
> flared later (milli-seconds or longer) when secondary air is intentionally
> introduced.
>
> I suspect that the "can with straw" did NOT have air entering at the
> bottom, but because the straw is so much like loose paper, the air from
the
> top that could reach the burning zone was providing sufficient primary air
> AND simultaneously providing the secondary air needed to get the flame.
>
> Anyone with further (and first hand) information about the "can with
straw"
> combustion unit, please send it to me (via Stoves List is best so that all
> can comment.) (I am sending this also to the "Gasification List Serve"
for
> comments from that perspective.)
>
> Meanwhile, I would like to hear from anyone about OTHER very small
> gasifiers, including when where who what etc. I am sure that some of you
> experimented with the likes of Tom Reed's IDD gasifier. I will post my
> 1-page "Short introduction to the Juntos Gasifier Stove" very soon,
> probably today, without pictures so it will transmit easily.
>
> Also, I refer to my previous posting of 3 days ago about "Theory and
> terminology questions about combustion". Not a single comment from anyone
yet.
>
> Paul
> Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
> Rotary University Teacher Grantee to Mozambique >10 mo of 2001-2003
> Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
> Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
> E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders
>
>
> -
> Stoves List Archives and Website:
> http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200209/
> http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
> >
> Stoves List Moderators:
> Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
> Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
>
> Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon
>
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> >
> For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
>
>http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Chambers/Chambers.htm
>

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From andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com Sat Oct 19 12:50:17 2002
From: andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com (AJH)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:21 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Re: History of very small true gasifier units
In-Reply-To: <004d01c273ae$66d787e0$2a47fea9@md>
Message-ID: <3bg3ru8konbm5ncb1hors525itd0i741dk@4ax.com>

On Fri, 18 Oct 2002 09:09:19 -0500, "Paul S. Anderson"
<psanders@ilstu.edu> wrote:

>My comment and question: Just because it is top-lit does not make it a
>gasifier.

In neither of the two quote you gave was gasifier mentioned, I suspect
both Crispin and (I know) myself deliberately avoided the term. Tom
Reed has posted a very likely reason why people are happy their
devices be termed gasifiers.

>There would need to be air intentionally entering at the bottom,
>to come up through the biomass (straw), and create gases specifically to be
>flared later (milli-seconds or longer) when secondary air is intentionally
>introduced.

This is how the idd stove "works", an ordinary updraught stove behaves
similarly. The idd better controls the offgas production and enables a
better match with secondary air.

>
>I suspect that the "can with straw" did NOT have air entering at the
>bottom, but because the straw is so much like loose paper, the air from the
>top that could reach the burning zone was providing sufficient primary air
>AND simultaneously providing the secondary air needed to get the flame.

I very much doubt this under natural draught with no chimney.
>
>Anyone with further (and first hand) information about the "can with straw"
>combustion unit, please send it to me (via Stoves List is best so that all
>can comment.) (I am sending this also to the "Gasification List Serve" for
>comments from that perspective.)

I have honoured your xpost this time, I consider it a stoves related
matter.

>
>Also, I refer to my previous posting of 3 days ago about "Theory and
>terminology questions about combustion". Not a single comment from anyone yet.

I was giving Tom Reed first refusal :-)

AJH

Gasification List Moderator:
Tom Reed, Biomass Energy Foundation, tombreed@attbi.com Biomass =
Energy Foundation, www.woodgas.com
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From andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com Sat Oct 19 12:53:49 2002
From: andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com (AJH)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:21 2004
Subject: "Pyrolysis gas" energy content and composition
In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20021015155153.01f588f0@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <uog3ruc787mp0gqd5uda91c7c3edgfioiu@4ax.com>

On Fri, 18 Oct 2002 23:44:56 -0600, "Tom Reed" <tombreed@attbi.com>
wrote:
>
>I wouldn't agree that the "inverted downdraft" type of gasifier doesn't
>produce producer gas, since "producer gas" can cover a multitude of sins,
>but mostly indicates a 5-7 MJ/m3 gas with ~ 50% nitrogen.

Hi Tom, where have you been? I was waiting for you to reply on
terminology first but felt I couldn't't leave a stove's pilgrim
without a guiding light for too long ;-).

I did not imply that "woodgas" from a gasifier would not include
producer gas, indeed that is the only product from a Kalle type
gasifier running on charcoal. So a gasifier running on wood becomes a
bit of everything, a producer gas generator, a water gas generator and
a pyrolysis offgas generator as well a often producing char with the
ash. The goal of the down draught gasifier, producing a clean fuel
gas, is to minimise pyrolysis offgas products and char, by cracking
them to CO and H2 with the inevitable N2 if air blown.

Because the offgas from the idd is burned without cooling between the
pyrolysis front and the secondary burner its tars are not a problem,
as you say the small amount of primary air results in little dilution
by nitrogen and hence this tarry, hot offgas has high enthalpy.
>
>If you would like to be more accurate, I would propose the terms
>
>"Pyrolysis gas" - made from the volatiles of the biomass, but leaving the
>charcoal as a by-product

This is the term I have seen used, I went a step further to "pyrolysis
offgas"

AJH

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From ronallarson at qwest.net Sat Oct 19 18:53:54 2002
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:21 2004
Subject: History of very small true gasifier units
In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20021018084349.01a9ef00@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <NGBBKDEHILILFNJPHEFIGEALCDAA.ronallarson@qwest.net>

Paul ( cc Andrew and stoves)

You said:

1. "I have become interested in the history of the development of very
small
true gasifier combustion units.

But I question every claim for "gasifiers" because the definitions are so
weak. For example, I give below the recent messages from Crispin and AJH.

(RWL1): I too would like to hear more from anyone in Kampala or
knowledgeable on such a fuel. But I also hope some others on the list can
try this experiment. I can't agree with your postulate - as I think it
would never be able to burn cleanly in that manner. I'll bet that the
experiment also needs to have a sizeable (15-20 cm?) height for a 10-12 cm
fuel diameter as a "chimney- combustion space" above the top level of straw
and secondary air inlets. My main point is that I see no reason straw as
described should not work in the right design. It is wonderful to hear
that someone is burning straw cleanly and that it is the cheapest fuel
around. Alex English is the person on our list with the largest history of
"charcoaling" straw. Alex?

2. You also said:

"Meanwhile, I would like to hear from anyone about OTHER very small
gasifiers, including when where who what etc. I am sure that some of you
experimented with the likes of Tom Reed's IDD gasifier. I will post my
1-page "Short introduction to the Juntos Gasifier Stove" very soon,
probably today, without pictures so it will transmit easily.

(RWL): I look forward to your short history. I spent a lot of time 7-8
years ago trying to find earlier examples of charcoal-making stoves - mostly
unsuccessfully. Many of the first responses when we were still part of
"bioenergy" was that it couldn't be done. Then Tom Duke - a very bright
Iowa farmer reported on doing something similar with two holes in the
ground - getting separate control of both primary and secondary air. He
said that he had heard of this with the term "Mormon" stove. He said he
tried it (I never have) and was able to make it work.

I have looked at piles of remote traditional charcoal-making literature and
have never found a description with top lighting and bottom air entry - with
or without flaring (which would need secondary air of course). But some of
the Swedish literature from several centuries ago had some of the feel for
this approach. They had some charcoaling designs where they had their first
lighting right in the center of big piles. No flaring, ever, I believe -
but they did seem to have a uniformly moving outward (and some downward)
movement or the pyrolysis front - opposite to the direction of the air flow.
Most rural charcoal making that I have read about does bottom lighting.

About six months after I first started writing about my experiments on
"bioenergy" and then "stoves" - I had a message from a Swedish PhD student
who was doing a follow-up thesis on a different (maybe even a Professor on
sabbatical) stove researcher who sounded as though he had introduced
something very much like what I had developed - maybe even in Uganda. I
have lost the computer on which that message sat - and I don't believe this
doctoral student was ever active on "stoves" or reported his work to us. I
spent some time today trying to locate Swedish doctoral stoves theses -
unsuccessfully. I don't believe I ever saw a picture of the stove - but
seem to recall that it sounded like it had natural draft with top lighting
and at least primary air control. I hope any Scandinavian listening in with
access to stove theses or stove (maybe missionary) African development might
be able to identify this. I might remember the name. The thesis work
should have been started in about 1994 or 1995

Best I can do on your question - sorry.

3. And you concluded:
"Also, I refer to my previous posting of 3 days ago about "Theory and
terminology questions about combustion". Not a single comment from anyone
yet."

(RWL3) I will comment on this as a response to a later message of today,
which includes Andrew and then Tom Reed.

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From ronallarson at qwest.net Sat Oct 19 20:37:20 2002
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:21 2004
Subject: Re "terminology"
In-Reply-To: <uog3ruc787mp0gqd5uda91c7c3edgfioiu@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <NGBBKDEHILILFNJPHEFIIEAMCDAA.ronallarson@qwest.net>

Hi all:

This is intended to agree with most everything I hear from Andrew and
mostly from Tom - as a part of the terminology thread started by Paul (and I
have changed the subject heading back to
"terminology". I am not happy with Paul's use of the word "gasifier".

1. Tom Reed said today re terminology: " The distinction is not trivial
since there are often tax credits for
gasification and not for combustion of biomass. Testifying in court, I
would say that if in principal you can put a septum between the gasification
section and the combustion section and remove samples of combustible gas
requiring more air, it is a gasifier. If sufficient air is supplied in one
step for "substantially" complete combustion (like the pellet stoves), it is
a combustor.

(RWL1): I wish that we had this tax credit problem to contend with. If we
did, I might change some of the following. I would say that Tom's remark is
true on the gasification list - where I think they almost never use the term
"pyrolysis". Gasifying people, as Andrew has emphasized, try for a minimum
amount of charcoal, for continuous operation, - and often are adding steam.
You (Paul) and I (and Andrew a lot) are not doing any of these. So
everything Tom says about the septum is true - but the septum criterion also
applies to pyrolysis units - which I claim are a different animal from
gasifiers.

I am pretty sure that when one uses the term "down draft" among the various
"crest" lists, people will think you are talking gasification and
mechanical/electrical power. We have talked a small amount about down-draft
stoves (especially Piet Verhaart)- but they don't seem to being pushed by
anyone. I have to look again - but I think Piet has a combustor.

When Tom adds "inverted" to get IDD - he is thinking updraft - and minimum
charcoal and gasification. I try to avoid IDD as not being very
comprehensible to the average client for one of these stoves. very few of us
can explain even down draft - and get across the concept of pyrolysis
instead of gasification.

I even avoid the term "pyrolysis" since that is likely to not be
understood either when reading may not even be possible. But
"charcoal-making" I have found is pretty understandable.
So on this list, I think "pyrolysis" is much better for what you are doing
that is "gasification". I contend you will lead both technical and lay
people astray with the term "gasification" - which implies to most of us the
diappearance of charcoal (maybe even only starting with charcoal - as is the
case with many gasifiers)- and likely to imply a continuous rather than
batch operation - with minimum charcoal production.

Now if you are determined to consume the charcoal - which I don't think you
are - then the term "gasifier" is possibly OK - although I still don't like
it - as there is a distinct change part way through the process after you
have converted everything to charcoal and start consuming it. I say you
have shifted from having a pyrolyzer (not a "gasifier") to a combustor - in
accordance with Tom's definition above (at any "septum" level above the
primary (now both primary and secondary) air supply port, you have already
had the "substantially complete combustion" defined by Tom as the
distinction.

The same is true for the description given recently by Dean Still of his
experiments with a blower attached to the Rocket - that is a combustor, not
a gasifier. Dean has no separate secondary air supply.

The same is true for the blower/fan driven ZZ-stoves - I think. They have
multiple air holes above and below the fuel supply- and the "septum" concept
may apply somewhat here. Tom Reed's "turbo" (fan driven) is definitely not a
combustor during the early stages - but is at the end, I think we will all
agree. I know of one person on the list who is possibly achieving
gasification during the charcoal combustion stage (ie needs a secondary aire
supply).

Crispin's Shisa may be more of a combustor when he is bottom lighting and a
pyrolyzer when he is top-lighting. However, Crispin has reported that he
gets charcoal even when bottom lit and (I think) there must be some valid
aspect of Tom's "septum" definition even with the many holes that make it
look rather like a "ZZ-stove" (and not like Tom's). That is - I am
extending Tom's definition to say that if you can find a place where the
"septum" shows incomplete combustion - then you have by definition either a
pyrolyzer or a gasifier - but the term "pyrolyzer" is more apt if you have
batch operation and are trying for the charcoal.

Whew.

I like this last of Andrew's sentence quoting Tom saying " >If you would
like to be more accurate, I would propose the terms
>"Pyrolysis gas" - made from the volatiles of the biomass, but leaving the
>charcoal as a by-product"
where Andrew added: ""This is the term I have seen used, I went a step
further to "pyrolysis
offgas".

We will have to see whether "offgas" catches on. It has some value - in
implying that something (charcoal) is left behind.

To Paul - the important point throughout the three of our remarks is the
term - "pyrolysis". I think you will find greater understanding if you use
that term on this list for what you are doing rather than "gasifier" and
"gasification".

But as we all know "pyrolysis" can also mean liquid production - even when
used as "pyrolytic gasification". To the best of my knowledge, no one on
this list is proposing a combined charcoal - liquid retrieval stove - but
this possible source of future confusion is another reason to use the term
"charcoal-making" stove if you are saving the charcoal (and I think you
are).

As I have tried to emphasize many times on this list, I think saving the
charcoal is a must with natural draft (if not also stoves with blowers)
because so little useful energy for cooking (not so restricted for heating -
but the power out and air controls must be drastically re-configured) can be
captured after the pyrolysis (charcoal-making) phase is over.

Sorry for taking so much space - but I got carried away. I hope my
prejudice in favor of the word "pyrolysis" and "charcoal-making" is not
blinding me to some missing attribute of "gasifier" - which I just don't
believe is what you are doing in the standard sense of that word on the
"crest" lists.

I hope Mike Antal and others emphasizing charcoal can now weigh in on the
terminology they prefer - in answer to the important question that Paul is
asking.

Ron

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From pverhaart at optusnet.com.au Sat Oct 19 22:48:42 2002
From: pverhaart at optusnet.com.au (Peter Verhaart)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:21 2004
Subject: co/co2
In-Reply-To: <00af01c276c2$d1ff55e0$791e6c0c@default>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20021020163549.00a94030@localhost>

Dear Dean,
The short
answer is "Probably No". We used an expensive CO/CO2 meter made
by Hereus (Germany). I think the price at the time (1980) was around 5000
NLF, equivalent to c. 2500 US$.
However, things have moved on. Possibly Piet Visser could tell you more,
his Email address is:
Visser@btgworld.com (Piet Visser)

You might take a look at a possible website of Hereus.
Before each series of experiments we used to calibrate the CO/CO2 meter
with calibrating gas with precisely known concentrations of CO, CO2, O2
and N2.
Let me know how you get on.
Kind regards,
Peter Verhaart

At 09:21 18/10/02 -0700, you wrote:
Dear
Peter,

I'm trying to measure CO/CO2. Did you find a good way to do
this that costs less than $2,000 US?

Best,

Dean

From tombreed at attbi.com Sun Oct 20 04:39:54 2002
From: tombreed at attbi.com (Tom Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:21 2004
Subject: "Pyrolysis gas" energy content and composition
In-Reply-To: <20021019173700.ZQFN1457.sccrgwc03.attbi.com@mail.radsg.com>
Message-ID: <025b01c277f5$768e5f10$a48cfd0c@TOMBREED>

Dear Jim and All:

I agree with Jim's comments and am posting them to those of you trying to
make sense of the science here.

Jim: Are you a member of CREST.org GASIFICATION? I doubt it, but we miss
you here....

TOM

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Diebold" <jdiebold@gocpc.com>
To: "Tom Reed" <tombreed@attbi.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 19, 2002 11:28 AM
Subject: Re: "Pyrolysis gas" energy content and composition

> >Dear Tom:
>
> I agree qualitatively with your comments, but would add that pyrolysis gas
made by
> indirectly heating the biomass results in the highest heating value, due
to the absence
> of added nitrogen to the offgases. In addition, if fast pyrolysis is
used, there can be
> up to about 15% hydrocarbons, e.g., methane, ethane, ethylene, propylene,
butenes, etc.
> in the gases which significantly increase the volumetric heating value.
These
> hydrocarbons are formed by endothermically cracking of the primary oil
vapors, so if the
> gas is used without condensing the tars only a little is gained by
cracking them.
>
> On the negative side, do not forget to include the water vapor present in
the producer
> gases when you calculate the heating value for an actual application. The
water content
> is easily calculated by assuming the producer gas is saturated at its
lowest temperature
> in the gas cleanup train (assuming a condensing gas-cooling system), or by
measuring the
> dew point of the gases. I suspect that it is common practice to ignore
the water vapor
> present in producer gases which inflates the heating value, when most
people speak of the
> heating value and try to compare different producer-gas systems.
>
> Jim Diebold
>
>
>
>
>
> Dear Paul, Andrew and All:
> >
> > I agree "vegie-gas" is cute, but it is nice for all of us to be on the
same
> > page and not invent new words if old words exist and are widely used and
> > understood.
> >
> > I wouldn't agree that the "inverted downdraft" type of gasifier doesn't
> > produce producer gas, since "producer gas" can cover a multitude of
sins,
> > but mostly indicates a 5-7 MJ/m3 gas with ~ 50% nitrogen.
> >
> > If you would like to be more accurate, I would propose the terms
> >
> > "Pyrolysis gas" - made from the volatiles of the biomass, but leaving
the
> > charcoal as a by-product
> >
> > It is difficult to characterize the energy content of the gas because if
you
> > cool it you will find a high proportion of "tars". The hot gas has all
the
> > energy value of the tars, typically much greater than the CH4, H2 and
CO.
> > The tars are the condensible component and quite high with low volume.
The
> > gas has a relatively low nitrogen content, since it only takes 0.5 to
1kg of
> > air to pyrolyse 1 kg of biomass, while it takes 1.5 kg of air to
completely
> > gasify dry biomass. I would like to measure this more accurately
someday
> > and hope we might do it at CPC.
> >
> > I would appreciate comments from Jim Diebold, a long time pyrolyser at
NREL,
> > now at CPC.
> >
> > Yours truly,
> >
> > TOM REED BEF
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > Andrew,
> > >
> > > Thanks for your informative reply. (I did not see it before my
previous
> > > message.) YOU and a few others can get the highest scores. People
like
> > me
> > > need the tutoring!!!
> > >
> > > I will leave "zoomass" to others, but wonder if sewerage (and dung and
> > > feces) is "zoo- or phyto-" (Not a topic for this list serve.)
> > >
> > > Thanks for the clarification about producer gas and water gas.
Clearly
> > the
> > > "very small gasifiers" such as mine do NOT yield producer gas.
> > >
> > > Is it acceptable to use the term "wood-gas" if the phyto-mass is
actually
> > > corn cobs or other clearly NON-wood material? Is the gasification of
> > > straw (being discussed currently) producing "wood-gas"? If we start
> > > speaking of phyto-gas (or "fito-gas" in many of the Romance
languages), we
> > > should be clear that we include "wood-gas" and other
> > > "dry-vegetative-matter-gas".
> > >
> > > :-)) No interest in the term "vegie-gas"? I thought it was cute.
> > >
> > > Thanks again.
> > >
> > > Paul
> > >
> > > At 12:10 AM 10/18/02 +0100, AJH wrote:
> > > >On Tue, 15 Oct 2002 16:22:22 -0500, "Paul S. Anderson" <psand
> > > > >
> > > > >1. Can regular biomass (I am not referring to the charcoal that is
a
> > stage
> > > > >of biomass consumption) be consumed in fire ***without first
undergoing
> > the
> > > > >release of the gases (pyrolysis and gasification)*** that are
> > subsequently
> > > > >combusted when mixed with oxygen and sufficient ignition?
> > > >
> > > >Possibly if burned as a fine powder the combustion would be so short
> > > >that there would be no way of separating the reactions.
> > > >
> > > > > In other words,
> > > > >even in a regular "fire" of biomass, is it not true that the gases
are
> > > > >created first, even if the gases are almost immediately "burned"?
> > Hence,
> > > > >there is no "fire" without gasification first.
> > > >
> > > >OK in general
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >If yes to the above, then all stoves COULD be considered to be
> > gasifiers,
> > > > >and we therefore need to clarify that what we have been calling
> > "gasifier
> > > > >stoves" are ones in which ***the creation of the gases takes place
in a
> > > > >location at least slightly and control-ably removed in space and in
> > time
> > > > >from the point of the combustion of those gases***.
> > > >
> > > >I think this is the distinction that has been made in the past.
> > > > >
> > > > >2. What are the real differences between "producer gas" and
"wood-gas"
> > and
> > > >
> > > >Producer gas is generally taken to be CO and Nitrogen formed by the
> > > >gasification of carbon by air, water gas is H2 and CO formed by the
> > > >gasification of carbon by steam. Woodgas is a mixture of these
> > > >reactions and chemicals plus the pyrolysis (offgas) products of
> > > >thermal decomposition, it contains many compounds ranging from weak
> > > >organic acids, alcohols etc through to tars as vapours. Gasifiers
> > > >making gas for other than thermal uses attempt to "crack" these
> > > >pyrolysis compounds thermally to reduce them to simple gaseous
> > > >compounds.
> > > >
> > > > >pyrolysis / gasification of any DRY plant-origin biomass.
> > > >
> > > >This is phytomass whether wet or dry.
> > > >
> > > > > (We do not do
> > > > >much gasification of dry animal-origin biomass.)
> > > >
> > > >This is zoomass and yes we do, there is much discussion on GAS-L of
> > > >sewage sludge gasification. I suspect one of the most successful
> > > >gasifiers operating is in a chrome leather works where the off cuts
> > > >are recycled as heat and the chromium is recovered commercially from
> > > >the ash.
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique
> > > >
> > > >How many marks out of ten do I score teach :-)?
> > > >
> > > >AJH
> > > >
> > > >-
> > > >Stoves List Archives and Website:
> > > >http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200209/
> > > >http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
> > > > >
> > > >Stoves List Moderators:
> > > >Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
> > > >Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
> > > >
> > > >Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
> > > >http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
> > > >http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
> > > >http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon
> > > >
> > > >List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
> > > >List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
> > > >List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
> > > >List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>
> > > > >
> > > >For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
> > > >
> >
>http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Chambers/Chambers.htm
> > >
> > > Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
> > > Rotary University Teacher Grantee to Mozambique >10 mo of 2001-2003
> > > Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
> > > Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
> > > E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders
> > >
> > >
> > > -
> > > Stoves List Archives and Website:
> > > http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200209/
> > > http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
> > > >
> > > Stoves List Moderators:
> > > Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
> > > Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
> > >
> > > Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
> > > http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
> > > http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
> > > http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon
> > >
> > > List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
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> > > >
> > > For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
> > >
> >
>http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Chambers/Chambers.htm
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>

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From tmiles at trmiles.com Sun Oct 20 09:13:47 2002
From: tmiles at trmiles.com (Tom Miles)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:21 2004
Subject: Re "terminology"
In-Reply-To: <NGBBKDEHILILFNJPHEFIIEAMCDAA.ronallarson@qwest.net>
Message-ID: <00c901c2785b$8ebad080$6601a8c0@tommain>

Alternative Fuel Production Credit (Section 29 of the Internal Revenue Code), or
"gasification tax credit"

The credit started in 1980. It is due to end December 31, 2002 although credits on
some facilities will be received until 2008. I believe the period for qualification
for the tax credit expired in June 1998 in it's last extension. By that time
enterprising tax attorneys had broadened the definition of a gasifier to include
boilers operating in a staged combustion mode with the air required for "gasifying"
coming up through the grate. It has also been used extensively for methane from
landfills. Other extensions have been proposed but none have been approved as far as
I know.

One positive effect of the credit was to force many small boiler makers who wanted to
take advantage of the credit to make their systems more efficient. There were never
more than half a dozen large industrial scale or independent power systems built
under the credit. Most of these were in the period 1984-1990. To my knowledge only
one is still operating. For some installations it provided substantial income. See
http://www.drykiln2000.com/capstone_turbine/section29.htm

Following is an excerpt from a March 1998 BERA description of tax credits found at
http://www.bera1.org/3-26-98.html
"a tax credit is exactly that, a direct reduction in the tax that is due on taxable
income. An example is the biomass gasification tax credit under IRC Section 29. The
fuel gases from landfill gas recovery systems and biomass gasifiers qualify for the
credit as long as certain conditions are satisfied. The amount of the credit is
inversely related to the price of oil; when the price of oil increases, the credit is
reduced. For 1997, it was $1.05/MMBtu of fuel gas produced and sold to an independent
third party, so the credit can be substantial." See also
http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/servicerpt/subsidy/box_txt.html and
http://spee.org/pdfs/taxs29.pdf http://www.lfgtech.com/tax_credits.htm etc.

Tom Miles

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Larson" <ronallarson@qwest.net>
To: <andrew.heggie@dtn.ntl.com>; "Stoves" <stoves@crest.org>; "Paul S. Anderson"
<psanders@ilstu.edu>; "Crispin" <crispin@newdawn.sz>; "Mike Antal"
<mantal@hawaii.edu>; "Tom Reed" <tombreed@attbi.com>; "Dean Still" <dstill@epud.net>
Sent: Saturday, October 19, 2002 9:38 PM
Subject: Re "terminology"

> Hi all:
>
> This is intended to agree with most everything I hear from Andrew and
> mostly from Tom - as a part of the terminology thread started by Paul (and I
> have changed the subject heading back to
> "terminology". I am not happy with Paul's use of the word "gasifier".
>
> 1. Tom Reed said today re terminology: " The distinction is not trivial
> since there are often tax credits for
> gasification and not for combustion of biomass. Testifying in court, I
> would say that if in principal you can put a septum between the gasification
> section and the combustion section and remove samples of combustible gas
> requiring more air, it is a gasifier. If sufficient air is supplied in one
> step for "substantially" complete combustion (like the pellet stoves), it is
> a combustor.
>
> (RWL1): I wish that we had this tax credit problem to contend with. If we
> did, I might change some of the following. I would say that Tom's remark is
> true on the gasification list - where I think they almost never use the term
> "pyrolysis". Gasifying people, as Andrew has emphasized, try for a minimum
> amount of charcoal, for continuous operation, - and often are adding steam.
> You (Paul) and I (and Andrew a lot) are not doing any of these. So
> everything Tom says about the septum is true - but the septum criterion also
> applies to pyrolysis units - which I claim are a different animal from
> gasifiers.

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From ronallarson at qwest.net Sun Oct 20 11:17:39 2002
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:21 2004
Subject: Re "terminology"
In-Reply-To: <00c901c2785b$8ebad080$6601a8c0@tommain>
Message-ID: <NGBBKDEHILILFNJPHEFIGEBECDAA.ronallarson@qwest.net>

Tom - Thanks for the follow-on information.

1. I asked about this to better understand whether pyrolysis is similar to
gasification in being covered by this US-only tax credit (which is pretty
sizeable). I confess I am still not sure - but think at least the gas
portion (maybe not the charcoal portion) may be covered.

2. If any charcoal expert on the list has this sort of tax experience - it
may help push the greater use of pyrolysis (which I think is important since
I think most charcoaling facilities in this country only flare the gases -
don't use the hot gasses productively). And this tax credit could change
the economics enough. True? If not covered, I certainly think both the
gasses and charcoal should be covered.

3. I suppose this may be a precedent for extending such a tax credit
overseas (maybe only for biomass - not for the fossil fuels - when we start
thinking of global warming abatement incentives.

Ron

-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Miles [mailto:tmiles@trmiles.com]
Sent: Sunday, October 20, 2002 11:10 AM
To: Stoves
Subject: Re: Re "terminology"

Alternative Fuel Production Credit (Section 29 of the Internal Revenue
Code), or
"gasification tax credit"

<snip>

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From dstill at epud.net Sun Oct 20 13:44:55 2002
From: dstill at epud.net (Dean Still)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:22 2004
Subject: visiting RAEL and Hesperian
Message-ID: <001b01c27799$ebfb1ec0$981e6c0c@default>

Dear Friends,

Spent two days this last week visiting Dan Kammen's Renewable and
Appropriate Energy Laboratory and Hesperian, both located in Berkeley. It
was gratifying to walk into a lab at UCB and see solar cookers, biomass
burning stoves, UV water purifiers, etc. Dr. Kammen is a very approachable
guy, knows everything about stoves, and laughed at my jokes- pleasant and
discerning. Rob Bailis, who took a stove class at Aprovecho, showed me
around. I talked with Linwei Tian, who is examining emissions from different
kinds of Chinese coal. Everyone at RAEL seems committed to improving
technologies like stoves and adding this incredible resource to the
collective that is working on the problem of biomass related indoor stove
emissions strengthens the collaboration considerably!

Jeff Conant came to the first ETHOS meeting. He is now the editor in charge
of Hesperian's new book on Environmental Health. I looked at the first two
chapters which are great, stressing down to earth, simple solutions. IMO,
Hesperian is the best AT publisher, creating books that are field tested
before they are published, lots of illustrations, sold as inexpensively as
possible, practical information, etc. I taught classes in Mexico using their
"Where There Is No Doctor", 3 million copies, in 90 languages, if I remember
correctly. One chapter in the new book will explore solutions to breathing
smoke and I'm helping Jeff gather info. If anyone has simple solutions to
IAP, I'm sure that Jeff would like to hear from you.

Here's a quote from "Clean Energy for Development and Economic Growth:
Biomass and Other Renewable Energy Options to Meet Energy and Development
Needs in Poor Nations", (Kammen, Bailis, Herzog, 2002).

Reminds me of the importance of stove work:

"The strongest evidence of causal linkage between biomass combustion
emissions and ill health is with acute respiratory infection in children
(Smith, et al., 2000a; Ezzati and Kammen, 2001; Bruce et al., 2000). It is
the primary cause of morbidity and mortality in children under five, causing
more deaths and ill health globally than either malnutrition, diarrhea, or
childhood diseases like measles and mumps. Children of this age are most
affected because they spend a great deal of time indoors, close to the women
of the household who do most of the cooking." (page 12)

Best,

Dean

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From andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com Mon Oct 21 11:52:32 2002
From: andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com (AJH)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:22 2004
Subject: Biodiesel
In-Reply-To: <000001c27273$9346ee60$5044083e@42v2501>
Message-ID: <jfm8rusi5np7c59q412bo7sn2kdrqi3huv@4ax.com>

I think Tom meant this for the whole list, it references my message
<lpcuqukfbjfbcdp3hq53r8t6abnaqvfp6i@4ax.com>
On Mon, 21 Oct 2002 00:42:33 -0600, "Tom Reed" <tombreed@attbi.com>
wrote:

>Dear Andrew and Harmon:
>
>Points well taken below, BUT....
>
>Biodiesel is lower in energy on a mass basis, but almost equal on a VOLUME
>basis, and (unfortunately) we measure efficiency on a miles per gallon basis
>rather than the more sensible miles per lb or miles per BTU (or better their
>metric equivalents). Biodiesel has MORE energy per gallon than gasoline.
>(I just went through these calculations).

I am surprised at this, I had a density for gasoil of 0.86, now
allowing for my scales being +-5grams I have weighed 1litre of
vegetable oil at 920g giving an sg of .92, so yes it does look like
they are similar energy by volume.

I have often wondered at how we by fuel by volume whether liquid or
wood, coal was always sold by weight. Wood fuel is interesting in that
the moisture content varies the weight but not the volume (until you
get below the fiber saturation point), yet is has a marked effect on
calorific value. So in the case of a stack of wood the weight is no
good indication without knowledge of the moisture content.

AJH

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From motie at paulbunyan.net Mon Oct 21 12:56:22 2002
From: motie at paulbunyan.net (Motie)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:22 2004
Subject: Biodiesel
In-Reply-To: <000001c27273$9346ee60$5044083e@42v2501>
Message-ID: <006701c27943$ccedc720$aac0bfd1@m6o7s4>

<<<<SNIP>>>
>
> I have often wondered at how we by fuel by volume whether liquid or
> wood, coal was always sold by weight. Wood fuel is interesting in that
> the moisture content varies the weight but not the volume (until you
> get below the fiber saturation point), yet is has a marked effect on
> calorific value. So in the case of a stack of wood the weight is no
> good indication without knowledge of the moisture content.
>
> AJH

I believe the reason that various fuels are sold by different methods of
measurement, is simply for the convenience of the transaction. Liquid fuels
are sold by volume, as that is the easiest method to measure a liquid fuel.
Coal is simply easier to weigh, than to figure out what cubic volume you are
purchasing. Coal is purchased from a commercial enterprise that would be
more likely have a facility to weigh the amounts. Efficiency is a guideline.
No haggling over differences in meauring the volume for each customer.
Firewood is more likely to be bought by volume, at a personal consumer
level, than by weight. Commercial entities that buy firewood are more
likely, at least locally, to buy by a weight converted to volume ie. a cord
of Oak firewood is assumed to weigh 5000 pounds, therefore 50,000 pounds of
wood would be paid as 10 cords. Any difference in weight because of high
moisture content would be reflected in the price paid. 'Green' wood brings a
lesser price than 'seasoned' wood.
Some local Entrepreneurs are selling firewood by a set price for a 'pickup
load'. Seasoned wood is $60/pickup load. 'Green' wood is $40/pickup load.
Buyers use their own pickup, and are free to overload to whatever extent
their greed overcomes their financial common sense as applied to vehicle
repairs.

Motie

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From dstill at epud.net Mon Oct 21 13:49:36 2002
From: dstill at epud.net (Dean Still)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:22 2004
Subject: WANTED: Research Assistant
Message-ID: <000d01c27951$592983c0$2b1e6c0c@default>

Dear Friends,

Aprovecho will provide room and board in exchange for 30 hours per week work
in my lab as research assistant determining how to decrease emissions in
wood burning cooking stoves. Winter term until March. Lovely farm/noble
work/contemplative atmosphere, i.e., it rains every day.

Contact me for info...

Best,

Dean Still
Director
Advanced Studies in Appropriate Technology
Aprovecho Research Center

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From tombreed at attbi.com Mon Oct 21 15:30:30 2002
From: tombreed at attbi.com (Tom Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:22 2004
Subject: GAS-L: History of very small true gasifier units
In-Reply-To: <004d01c273ae$66d787e0$2a47fea9@md>
Message-ID: <04b001c27919$80d91990$a48cfd0c@TOMBREED>

Dear Paul, Andrew and All:

Glad to hear of the "sausage" cooker. But I don't agree that there weren't
holes in the bottom. Without the holes only a cm or two would burn because
air can't enter from the top while gas is exiting. Try our stove with
bottom air completely cut off (Hard to do - very little air required).

We have also proposed (at the Ethos meeting last year) "straw ropes"
requiring very tight winding.

Straw "knots" are described by Laura Engels Wilder (Little House on the
Prairie etc.) in the book "The Long Winter". When the wood ran out early,
she and her father spent hours twisting straw knots for heat.

Your pal, TOM REED

> Hi,
>
> I have become interested in the history of the development of very small
> true gasifier combustion units.
>
> But I question every claim for "gasifiers" because the definitions are so
> weak. For example, I give below the recent messages from Crispin and AJH.
>
> >On Mon, 14 Oct 2002 20:13:47 +0200, "Crispin" <crispin@newdawn.sz>
> >wrote:
> >
> > >Dear Andrew
> > >
> > >I heard anecdotal evidence of a very low cost string bound straw
'sausage'
> > >'briquette' being used to cook in Kampala restaurants. It was placed
into a
> > >fairly tight fitting metal can and top lit. The diameter was on the
order
> > >of 5 inches. It apparenetly burned very cleanly and was the cheapest
fuel
> > >around..
>
> At 12:08 AM 10/18/02 +0100, AJH wrote in reply:
>
> >Nice one! Just shows most things have been thought of. I wonder if it
> >predates the Reed-Larson idd stove? Does it burn out the char?
> >
> >AJH
>
> My comment and question: Just because it is top-lit does not make it a
> gasifier. There would need to be air intentionally entering at the
bottom,
> to come up through the biomass (straw), and create gases specifically to
be
> flared later (milli-seconds or longer) when secondary air is intentionally
> introduced.
>
> I suspect that the "can with straw" did NOT have air entering at the
> bottom, but because the straw is so much like loose paper, the air from
the
> top that could reach the burning zone was providing sufficient primary air
> AND simultaneously providing the secondary air needed to get the flame.
>
> Anyone with further (and first hand) information about the "can with
straw"
> combustion unit, please send it to me (via Stoves List is best so that all
> can comment.) (I am sending this also to the "Gasification List Serve"
for
> comments from that perspective.)
>
> Meanwhile, I would like to hear from anyone about OTHER very small
> gasifiers, including when where who what etc. I am sure that some of you
> experimented with the likes of Tom Reed's IDD gasifier. I will post my
> 1-page "Short introduction to the Juntos Gasifier Stove" very soon,
> probably today, without pictures so it will transmit easily.
>
> Also, I refer to my previous posting of 3 days ago about "Theory and
> terminology questions about combustion". Not a single comment from anyone
yet.
>
> Paul
> Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
> Rotary University Teacher Grantee to Mozambique >10 mo of 2001-2003
> Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
> Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
> E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders
>
>
> Gasification List Moderator:
> Tom Reed, Biomass Energy Foundation, tombreed@attbi.com Biomass =
> Energy Foundation, www.woodgas.com
> List-Post: <mailto:gasification@crest.org>
> List-Help: <mailto:gasification-help@crest.org>
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> -
> Gasification List Archives
http://www.crest.org/discussion/gasification/200202/
> Bioenergy 2002 http://www.bioenergy2002.org/
> 200 kWe CHP Discussion
> http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/gasification/200kWCHP.html
> Gasification Reference
http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html
>
> >
>
>

From lanny at roman.net Mon Oct 21 17:36:40 2002
From: lanny at roman.net (Lanny Henson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:22 2004
Subject: Lanny's Simple Camp Fire Stove
Message-ID: <001201c27984$8e2c3120$4b76f342@oemcomputer>

Stove Friends,
Check out my simple stove that is made from
onlt two parts. The first part is a metal 5 gallon bucket. The second part
is a piece of chimney pipe. A flanged hole is installed into the bottom of a
5-gallon bucket to fit an 8-quart stockpot. Flanges bent over a slot attaches
the chimney. Tabbed holes are cut for fuel feed and air intakes. This stove can
be built with a knife and a pair of pliers. It took me 35 min to build the first
one. I built an open fire then set the stove over the fire and coals. I fed
sticks into the slots and adjusted the airflow until it sounded good. In my
first attempt I boiled 6 Qt of water in 12 min using moist sticks for
fuel. I may add a third part to seperate a combustion zone from the
pot.
Lanny
<A
href="http://www.lanny.us/campfs.html">http://www.lanny.us/campfs.html

From f.martirena at enet.cu Mon Oct 21 18:17:16 2002
From: f.martirena at enet.cu (Fernando Martirena)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:22 2004
Subject: WANTED: Research Assistant
In-Reply-To: <000d01c27951$592983c0$2b1e6c0c@default>
Message-ID: <017901c2796f$f54e5f00$ab000a0a@fc.uclv.edu.cu>

Dear Dean!!

Thanks for this offer. We do not have the chance to attend this workshop? to
determine how to decrease emmissions in wood-burning cooking stoves, however
we are very much interested in the subject.

is there any chance to forward us the materials/documents resulting from
this??

Many thanks in advance

saludos, fernando
____________________________
José Fernando Martirena Hernández (Prof. PhD Ing.)
CIDEM Facultad de Construcciones/Faculty of Constructions
Universidad Central de las Villas/Central University of Las Villas
Carretera de Camajuani km 5, Santa Clara 408000, Villa Clara. CUBA
tel/fax: ++53 42 281539 (oficina/office)
tel/fax: ++53 42 203065 (casa/home)
e-mail: F.Martirena@enet.cu
website: www.ecosur.org
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dean Still" <dstill@epud.net>
To: <stoves@crest.org>; "ethos" <ethos@vrac.iastate.edu>
Sent: Sunday, October 20, 2002 6:29 PM
Subject: WANTED: Research Assistant

> Dear Friends,
>
> Aprovecho will provide room and board in exchange for 30 hours per week
work
> in my lab as research assistant determining how to decrease emissions in
> wood burning cooking stoves. Winter term until March. Lovely farm/noble
> work/contemplative atmosphere, i.e., it rains every day.
>
> Contact me for info...
>
> Best,
>
> Dean Still
> Director
> Advanced Studies in Appropriate Technology
> Aprovecho Research Center
>
>
> -
> Stoves List Archives and Website:
> http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200209/
> http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
> >
> Stoves List Moderators:
> Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
> Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
>
> Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon
>
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> >
> For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
>
>http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Chambers/Chambers.htm
>
>

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From das at eagle-access.net Tue Oct 22 01:31:12 2002
From: das at eagle-access.net (Das)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:22 2004
Subject: salt in the lamp
Message-ID: <200210220943.g9M9hG209500@saturn.eagle-access.net>

Mantles are a combination of a burnable organic fiber combined with a very
high temperature oxide such as rare earth in the form of a crocheted bag
which remarkably holds its shape and is remarkably durable considering how
delicate it is once it is ignited.

Its light is by incandescence rather than the characteristic colors of
metal vapors.

A. Das
Original Sources/Biomass Energy Foundation
Box 7137, Boulder, CO 80306
das@eagle-access.net

----------
> From: Carefreeland@aol.com
> To: stoves@crest.org
> Subject: Fwd: salt in the lamp
> Date: Monday, October 14, 2002 6:46 PM
>
In a message dated 10/14/02 8:23:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Carefreeland
writes:

>
> Stovers,
> I know that chlorine in many salt compounds intensifies many
colored
> flames in pyrotechnics. The common ones are strontium chloride for red
> flames, barium chloride and copper chloride for green and blue, zink
> chloride for blue-green, potassium chloride for a pink/purple, and sodium

> chloride for yellow.
> Potassium perchlorate is also used professionally, but may be
> prohibitively more unstable. Potassium chlorate can also explode
violently
> when mixed with many things like sulfur or charcoal, requiring only the
> least friction or static for ignition- be careful and avoid experimenting

> with any of these compounds. These oxidents can be used with metal
flakes,
> powders, and salts to intensify color imparted by the metal burning.
> I have a home made formula for a brilliant yellow flare which
> utilised table salt with a form of black powder. I may have also used
> sodium nitrate in it as well in many experiments.
> I would think that a glowing oxide of magnesium, titanium, or
> aluminum might yield a bright flame under certain conditions.
> Anybody know what the compound in a gas mantle is? Phosphorus?
> Dan Dimiduk
>

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From das at eagle-access.net Tue Oct 22 01:32:37 2002
From: das at eagle-access.net (Das)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:22 2004
Subject: vegetable oil as fuel
Message-ID: <200210220943.g9M9hB209497@saturn.eagle-access.net>

Harmon

Regardless of the original fuel of diesel engines ( I have some friends who
say the original fuel was hempseed oil), the important point is that
biodiesel (fat esters) burn significantly cleaner in opacity, soot than
either unmodified vegetable oil or petroleum diesel.

It is sad that the UK is sending out "Fryer Sniffs". If anything,
biodiesel fuel should recieve a subsidy rather than a tax.

The use of unmodified vegetable oil as a diesel fuel is more polluting,
lazy and a terrible idea. J. & K. Tikell's book is far too kind on the
subject.

A. Das
Original Sources/Biomass Energy Foundation
Box 7137, Boulder, CO 80306
das@eagle-access.net

----------
> From: Harmon Seaver <hseaver@cybershamanix.com>
> To: Tom Reed <tombreed@attbi.com>
> Cc: Stoves <Stoves@crest.org>; bioenergy <bioenergy@crest.org>
> Subject: Re: vegetable oil as fuel
> Date: Monday, October 14, 2002 8:28 AM
>
> No, it's not new at all. I bought the Tickell book a few years ago, but
> actually, the original design by Diesel was for vegetable oil as fuel.
Too bad
> they got so far off track, eh?
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 14, 2002 at 08:06:28AM -0600, Tom Reed wrote:
> > Dear Harmon et al:
> >
> > I began work on biodiesel from waste oil in 1989 and we tested RTD
buses in
> > 1990, finding that a 10% blend with diesel significantly lowered
particulate
> > emissions while 100% removed them altogether.
> >
> > Unfortunately the USDA wasn't interested in waste oil biodiesel at
> > potentially $1gal, but preferred to promote virgin oil BD at $2-3/gal.
> > Politics screws up energy mostly.
> >
> > Recently a biodiesel pump has opened in SanFrancisco. Read about it at
> > http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/990823544_6.html
> >
> > A lot of the most recent discussions here are just the latest
rediscovery of
> > old data and we have better things to do. See
http://www.biodiesel.org/.
> > There is an excellent book, "From the Fryer to the Fuel Tank", by J and
K
> > Tickell (friends of mine who passed through GOlden 5 years ago before
> > starting a career in BD). Available from them at
http://www.veggievan.org/
> > or from my BEF Press at www.woodgas.com for $25.
> >
> > If you'd like to make some in your kitchen, see
> > http://www.woodgas.com/biodies.htm on my website.
> >
> > I'm planning to operate my new VW Jetta Turbo Diesel on pure biodiesel
in
> > the next few weeks.
> >
> > Biodiesel is a great fuel, but not as new as some here think.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Harmon Seaver" <hseaver@cybershamanix.com>
> > To: "Lanny Henson" <lanny@roman.net>
> > Cc: <Stoves@crest.org>
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 11:39 PM
> > Subject: Re: vegetable oil as fuel
> >
> >
> > > On Wed, Oct 02, 2002 at 12:28:26AM -0700, Lanny Henson wrote:
> > > > SOMETHING DOES not seem right about those numbers.
> > >
> > > Usually the Wall Street Journal is pretty accurate. Perhaps you
should
> > do
> > > some research. You'll find the numbers are good.
> > >
> > > > According to my business
> > > > listings there are 382,956 restaurants in this country.
> > >
> > > I'd say that number is pretty low. But it's also not just from
> > restaurants,
> > > you have to add in all the schools, colleges, hospitals, and other
> > institutions
> > > like prisons, etc.
> > >
> > > > Now you said that
> > > > restaurants waste grease is about 3, 000,000,000 lb per year. That
would
> > > > average 7834 pounds per year or 150 lbs a week! I don't think so.
> > > > I do think Harmon is closer with his estimate that one or two
> > restaurants
> > > > could fuel a car for A WEEK.
> > >
> > > No, no -- I can get enough on average from one or two each week to
> > provide
> > > *all* the fuel I need. There's no point in arguing about it, plenty
of
> > people
> > > are doing it already, it's really not debatable.
> > >
> > > >
> > > > > I think that should be gallons, not pounds - that would only be
about
> > > > > 300 million gallons, way too low. Anyway, a very large amount of
WVO
> > > > > is most definitely dumped into landfills in the US, and into
sewers.
> > > >
> > > > MAYBE IN NEW YORK BUT NOT HERE IN MY AREA. BUT ANYWAY I AM ALL FOR
USING
> > IT
> > > > AS FUEL.
> > >
> > > You can do it anywhere. I sure don't live in a big city.
> > >
> > > >
> > > > > Harmon didn't say he hates the USA, by the way. However, that's
the
> > > > > way most of the people in the world seem to see it, including
nearly
> > > > > all the former US allies (with the exception of Israel and, to a
> > > > > lesser extent, Australia).
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > WHERE ARE YOU getting you information. Most of the free world knows
that
> > we
> > > > are doing the right thing.
> > >
> > > Oh dear!
> > >
> > > > I know that there is a lot of anti American
> > > > sentiment out there but most of that is due to envy not something
we
> > did.
> > >
> > > Hardly. Mostly it's our foreign policy for the last 50 years. I'm
always
> > > reminded of the the book "The Ugly American". It would probably be
> > interesting
> > > to reread it at this point.
> > >
> > > > Most common sense people out there know that we are the good guys.
We
> > have
> > > > made great sacrifices to liberate the oppressed and will continue
to do
> > so.
> > > > The people of Iraq are suffering, Sadam has got to go.
> > >
> > > Interesting that we're so concerned about the suffering of people
in
> > Iraq --
> > > what other countries have we invaded to stop the suffering? North
Korea?
> > Uganda
> > > under Idi Amin? Rwanda during their recent genocide? Burma? South
> > > Africa? Hmm. Oh yes, weapons of mass destruction. Gee, I wonder why
we
> > didn't
> > > invade India and Pakistan when they were developing nukes. Or Russia.
Or
> > China,
> > > or ...
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Harmon Seaver
> > > CyberShamanix
> > > http://www.cybershamanix.com
> > >
> > > -
> > > Stoves List Archives and Website:
> > > http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200209/
> > > http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
> > > >
> > > Stoves List Moderators:
> > > Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
> > > Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
> > >
> > > Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
> > > http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
> > > http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
> > > http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon
> > >
> > > List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
> > > List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
> > > List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
> > > List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>
> > > >
> > > For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
> > >
> >
>http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Chambers/Chambers.htm

> > >
> > >
> >
>
> --
> Harmon Seaver
> CyberShamanix
> http://www.cybershamanix.com
>
> "War is just a racket ... something that is not what it seems to the
> majority of people. Only a small group knows what its about. It is
> conducted for the benefit of the very few at the expense of the
> masses." --- Major General Smedley Butler, 1933
>
> "Our overriding purpose, from the beginning through to the present
> day, has been world domination - that is, to build and maintain the
> capacity to coerce everybody else on the planet: nonviolently, if
> possible, and violently, if necessary. But the purpose of US foreign
> policy of domination is not just to make the rest of the world jump
> through hoops; the purpose is to faciliate our exploitation of
> resources."
> - Ramsey Clark, former US Attorney General
> http://www.thesunmagazine.org/bully.html
>
> -
> Stoves List Archives and Website:
> http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200209/
> http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
> >
> Stoves List Moderators:
> Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
> Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
>
> Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon
>
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> >
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>
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From keith at journeytoforever.org Tue Oct 22 01:47:11 2002
From: keith at journeytoforever.org (Keith Addison)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:22 2004
Subject: vegetable oil as fuel
In-Reply-To: <200210220943.g9M9hB209497@saturn.eagle-access.net>
Message-ID: <v04210102b9daccdb23ce@[192.168.0.2]>

>Harmon
>
>Regardless of the original fuel of diesel engines ( I have some friends who
>say the original fuel was hempseed oil), the important point is that
>biodiesel (fat esters) burn significantly cleaner in opacity, soot than
>either unmodified vegetable oil or petroleum diesel.
>
>It is sad that the UK is sending out "Fryer Sniffs". If anything,
>biodiesel fuel should recieve a subsidy rather than a tax.
>
>The use of unmodified vegetable oil as a diesel fuel is more polluting,
>lazy and a terrible idea. J. & K. Tikell's book is far too kind on the
>subject.
>
>A. Das
>Original Sources/Biomass Energy Foundation
>Box 7137, Boulder, CO 80306
>das@eagle-access.net

It's not quite so simple as that, Mr Das.

http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_svo.html
Straight vegetable oil as diesel fuel

Keith Addison

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From Carl.Carley at eml.ericsson.se Tue Oct 22 04:16:28 2002
From: Carl.Carley at eml.ericsson.se (Carl Carley (EMP))
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:22 2004
Subject: vegetable oil as fuel
Message-ID: <E3117AE4EC45D511BEC10002A55CB09CFD986B@eukbant102.uk.eu.ericsson.se>

It is sad that the UK is sending out "Fryer Sniffs". If anything,
biodiesel fuel should recieve a subsidy rather than a tax.

It seems strange that I can mail order tobacco from Europe (to the UK) and save a load on tax quite legitimately - for personal use, but can I buy a bottle of veg oil from Europe and use it in my own car as fuel, no I don't think so.
Carl

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From kchisholm at ca.inter.net Tue Oct 22 06:05:25 2002
From: kchisholm at ca.inter.net (Kevin Chisholm)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:22 2004
Subject: Lanny's Simple Camp Fire Stove
In-Reply-To: <001201c27984$8e2c3120$4b76f342@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <3DB55A48.DB41A227@ca.inter.net>

Dear Lanny

That is a brilliantly simple system!!

Is the pot supported by its handles on the "top edges"
of the stove?

Once the stove is made, wouldn't it be good for the
specific pot for which it ws made? (or at least one of
the same diameter at teh handle level.)

Kindest regards,

Kevin Chisholm
> Lanny Henson wrote:
>
>
> Stove Friends,
> Check out my simple stove that is made from onlt two
> parts. The first part is a metal 5 gallon bucket. The
> second part is a piece of chimney pipe. A flanged
> hole is installed into the bottom of a 5-gallon
> bucket to fit an 8-quart stockpot. Flanges bent over
> a slot attaches the chimney. Tabbed holes are cut for
> fuel feed and air intakes. This stove can be built
> with a knife and a pair of pliers. It took me 35 min
> to build the first one. I built an open fire then set
> the stove over the fire and coals. I fed sticks into
> the slots and adjusted the airflow until it sounded
> good. In my first attempt I boiled 6 Qt of water in
> 12 min using moist sticks for fuel. I may add a third
> part to seperate a combustion zone from the pot.
> Lanny
> http://www.lanny.us/campfs.html

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From ronallarson at qwest.net Tue Oct 22 07:06:42 2002
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:22 2004
Subject: Lanny's Simple Camp Fire Stove
In-Reply-To: <3DB55A48.DB41A227@ca.inter.net>
Message-ID: <NGBBKDEHILILFNJPHEFIAECKCDAA.ronallarson@qwest.net>

Lanny - like Kevin, I like what you have done. A few questions:

1. Your flange to accept the pot looks very clean. Did you do that with
the pliers or do you have some of a flanging tool? (anyone know where to
get flanging tools?)

2. One (maybe two) thin layers of metal inside or out will cut down the
thermal losses. If you get a chance to see the difference in performance,
please let us know. (maybe also letting us know also about the outermost
wall temperatures) Also maybe a wrap of fiberglass blanket? It will be
interesting to hear whether these are worth the extra cost.

3. I believe the rocket stove group sees a good deal of value in a grate.
If you can try yours with and without a simple grate, that information would
be valuable. Your starting without the stove on just an outisde small fire
with coals also seems novel and definitely saves some time and probably
allows efficient use of scrap fuel materials in advance of starting an
actual cooking.

4. You probably are getting a good bit of value out of the hot coals at the
bottom of the unit. Some good radiation up to the pan bottom and they dry
out your wood. It would be interesting to hear what happens in terms of
time to boil, with and without the prior coals.

5. Can you tell us more on the dimensions - especially the radial
separations from pot to outer wall and the height of the pot bottom over the
burning wood and the coals.

6. Yours is one of the very few stoves we hear about with a chimney pipe -
so it will be very interesting to hear more about the performance of that
pipe. Are there two sections? (in the US often 2 feet = 60 cm each) What
would happen with 1 or 3 sections? Are these 6 inch = 15 cm diameter?

7. You said you controlled air flow - but none of the descriptions or
pictures show whether you have a flapper valve in the chimney itself. If
you do, or could, it would be nice to hear what sort of power ratios
(turn-down ratios) you can achieve. (This could be measured by the rate of
fuel consumption). Maybe measuring exit temperatures would tell us
something interesting. Maybe just covering part of the top of the stove
pipe would be enough like a flapper valve for a first test.

8. You seem to have quite a lot of air possible to enter through the wood
entry port (like the rocket stove - which only has the one port). What
would happen if you closed off all the other ports? Could you balance the
loss of air by adding one more pipe section?

9. The hole between the stove and the chimney pipe - could you give us those
dimensions? It would seem that a good bit of the flame would exit into the
stove pipe without doing much heating of the pot (that is - you would
mostly like the exhaust gases to all go past the cook pot first. Yours is a
nice elegant solution - but I wonder if you see some other
(not-too-difficult) way to get all the gases going up before going out. I
don't see it myself.

-----Original Message-----
From: Kevin Chisholm [mailto:kchisholm@ca.inter.net]
Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 8:02 AM
To: Lanny Henson
Cc: stoves@crest.org
Subject: Re: Lanny's Simple Camp Fire Stove

Dear Lanny

That is a brilliantly simple system!!

Is the pot supported by its handles on the "top edges"
of the stove?

Once the stove is made, wouldn't it be good for the
specific pot for which it ws made? (or at least one of
the same diameter at teh handle level.)

Kindest regards,

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From dstill at epud.net Tue Oct 22 08:43:08 2002
From: dstill at epud.net (Dean Still)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:22 2004
Subject: Lanny's Simple Camp Fire Stove
Message-ID: <002601c279a1$bd372ac0$f91e6c0c@default>

Dear Lanny,

I have thought that this solution might be a great candidate
for a "World Stove". It is simple, inexpensive, has really good heat
transfer to the pot, and removes smoke from the kitchen. Sam Baldwin and Micuta
used the idea in Africa showing the practicality of shielding the fire and
creating a optimal gap around the pot.

What I like best about this design is that the fire directly
hits the pot helping to cool temperatures of the sheet metal stove body, which
protects the metal. It's cheap enough that a family could have one for every
pot.

I like to add some of the Rocket parts to it: a shelf so that
wood sticks are separated, a internal grate to lift sticks above the earth, and
block as much air as you can going over the sticks and have as fast air as you
can get going into the coals. As Ron says, insulating the outer body helps a
little but not very much since the combustion chamber is so large.

This is such a elegant stove. If you weren't going to go the
insulated combustion chamber route to clean up emissions, I would recommend this
concept as efficient and well engineered. I wish folks were building these
instead of Lorena's...

Best,

Dean
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">

From lanny at roman.net Tue Oct 22 19:02:07 2002
From: lanny at roman.net (Lanny Henson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:22 2004
Subject: Lanny's Simple Camp Fire Stove
In-Reply-To: <NGBBKDEHILILFNJPHEFIAECKCDAA.ronallarson@qwest.net>
Message-ID: <003601c27a59$a783b5a0$5676f342@oemcomputer>

Ron, You always ask great questions. This stove is the first prototype and
it cooks but it needs improvements to increase its efficiency. I have ideas
for #2.
See my response below. Lanny
----- Original Message -----
From: Ron Larson <ronallarson@qwest.net>
To: Kevin Chisholm <kchisholm@ca.inter.net>; Lanny Henson <lanny@roman.net>
Cc: <stoves@crest.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 8:08 AM
Subject: RE: Lanny's Simple Camp Fire Stove

>
> Lanny - like Kevin, I like what you have done. A few questions:
>
> 1. Your flange to accept the pot looks very clean. Did you do that with
> the pliers or do you have some of a flanging tool? (anyone know where to
> get flanging tools?)
WITH A LITTLE PRACTICE THE FLANGE CAN BE FORMED WITH PLIERS AND A HAMMERING
TYPE TOOL (ROCK, STICK, OR HEAVY PLIERS LIKE VICE GRIPS)
> 2. One (maybe two) thin layers of metal inside or out will cut down the
> thermal losses. If you get a chance to see the difference in performance,
> please let us know. (maybe also letting us know also about the outermost
> wall temperatures) Also maybe a wrap of fiberglass blanket? It will be
> interesting to hear whether these are worth the extra cost.
I WILL TRY A FIBERGLASS BLANKET SKIRT BUT THEN WE ARE UP TO 3 PARTS.
> 3. I believe the rocket stove group sees a good deal of value in a grate.
> If you can try yours with and without a simple grate, that information
would
THE FUEL SLOT IS HIGHER THAN THE AIR SLOT. THE FLOW ROTATES FROM THE AIR
SLOT TO UNDER THE FUEL AND THEN THERE IS ANOTHER AIR SLOT. SO AIR ENTERS
BELOW AND ABOVE THE FUEL.
> be valuable. Your starting without the stove on just an outisde small
fire
> with coals also seems novel and definitely saves some time and probably
> allows efficient use of scrap fuel materials in advance of starting an
> actual cooking.
>
> 4. You probably are getting a good bit of value out of the hot coals at
the
> bottom of the unit. Some good radiation up to the pan bottom and they dry
> out your wood. It would be interesting to hear what happens in terms of
> time to boil, with and without the prior coals.
A FEW COALS HELPED THE DAMP STICKS TO BURN.
> 5. Can you tell us more on the dimensions - especially the radial
> separations from pot to outer wall and the height of the pot bottom over
the
> burning wood and the coals.
SORRY ABOUT THE AMERICAN DIMENSIONS.
THE BUCKET IS 10.75 INCHES DIAMETER THE POT IS 8.5 INCHES. THE POT SITS
6.5" DOWN IN TO THE 13.5" BUCKET AND IS ABOUT 5" ABOVE THE 2" DEEP ASH
/COALS.
> 6. Yours is one of the very few stoves we hear about with a chimney
pipe -
> so it will be very interesting to hear more about the performance of that
> pipe. Are there two sections? (in the US often 2 feet = 60 cm each)
What
> would happen with 1 or 3 sections? Are these 6 inch = 15 cm diameter?
THE 4" CHIMNEY IS 4FT LONG. iT SHOULD BE IN SECTIONS FOR EASY TRANSPORT.
> 7. You said you controlled air flow - but none of the descriptions or
> pictures show whether you have a flapper valve in the chimney itself. If
> you do, or could, it would be nice to hear what sort of power ratios
> (turn-down ratios) you can achieve. (This could be measured by the rate
of
> fuel consumption). Maybe measuring exit temperatures would tell us
> something interesting. Maybe just covering part of the top of the stove
> pipe would be enough like a flapper valve for a first test.
I WAS TRYING TO CONTROL THE AIRFLOW BY RESTRICTING THE INTAKE AIR. i WAS
TRYING TO GET ENOUGH VELOCITY THROUGH THE AIR SLOTS TO ROTATE THE FLOW UNDER
THE POT.
I ALSO BLOCK PART OF THE EXHAUST PIPE TO CONTROL THE FLOW.
> 8. You seem to have quite a lot of air possible to enter through the wood
> entry port (like the rocket stove - which only has the one port). What
> would happen if you closed off all the other ports? Could you balance the
> loss of air by adding one more pipe section?
I KEPT THE FUEL HOLE MOSTLY BLOCKED WITH STICKS AND THEN ADJUSTED THE TABS
ON THE AIR INTAKES
> 9. The hole between the stove and the chimney pipe - could you give us
those
> dimensions? It would seem that a good bit of the
7" TALL AND 1.5" WIDE
flame would exit into the
> stove pipe without doing much heating of the pot (that is - you would
> mostly like the exhaust gases to all go past the cook pot first. Yours is
a
> nice elegant solution - but I wonder if you see some other
> (not-too-difficult) way to get all the gases going up before going out. I
> don't see it myself.
I KEPT THE FIRE ON THE OPPOSITE SIDE OF THE EXHAUST BUT WAS WASTING A LOT OF
HEAT UP THE CHIMNEY. I BELIEVE THAT I CAN IMPROVE THAT PART.
LANNY
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kevin Chisholm [mailto:kchisholm@ca.inter.net]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 8:02 AM
> To: Lanny Henson
> Cc: stoves@crest.org
> Subject: Re: Lanny's Simple Camp Fire Stove
>
>

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From lanny at roman.net Tue Oct 22 19:03:30 2002
From: lanny at roman.net (Lanny Henson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:22 2004
Subject: Lanny's Simple Camp Fire Stove
In-Reply-To: <001201c27984$8e2c3120$4b76f342@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <003701c27a59$b2383020$5676f342@oemcomputer>

Kevin, thanks for the nice words.
The handles support the pot on the top edge of the stove.
The pot was just the closes match that I could find for the bucket . There
is a 1"or more gap which is probably too much.
Lanny
----- Original Message -----
From: Kevin Chisholm <kchisholm@ca.inter.net>
To: Lanny Henson <lanny@roman.net>
Cc: <stoves@crest.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 7:01 AM
Subject: Re: Lanny's Simple Camp Fire Stove

> Dear Lanny
>
> That is a brilliantly simple system!!
>
> Is the pot supported by its handles on the "top edges"
> of the stove?
>
> Once the stove is made, wouldn't it be good for the
> specific pot for which it ws made? (or at least one of
> the same diameter at teh handle level.)
>
> Kindest regards,
>
> Kevin Chisholm
> > Lanny Henson wrote:
> >
> >
> > Stove Friends,
> > Check out my simple stove that is made from onlt two
> > parts. The first part is a metal 5 gallon bucket. The
> > second part is a piece of chimney pipe. A flanged
> > hole is installed into the bottom of a 5-gallon
> > bucket to fit an 8-quart stockpot. Flanges bent over
> > a slot attaches the chimney. Tabbed holes are cut for
> > fuel feed and air intakes. This stove can be built
> > with a knife and a pair of pliers. It took me 35 min
> > to build the first one. I built an open fire then set
> > the stove over the fire and coals. I fed sticks into
> > the slots and adjusted the airflow until it sounded
> > good. In my first attempt I boiled 6 Qt of water in
> > 12 min using moist sticks for fuel. I may add a third
> > part to seperate a combustion zone from the pot.
> > Lanny
> > http://www.lanny.us/campfs.html
>

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From lanny at roman.net Tue Oct 22 19:04:59 2002
From: lanny at roman.net (Lanny Henson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:22 2004
Subject: Lanny's Simple Camp Fire Stove
In-Reply-To: <002601c279a1$bd372ac0$f91e6c0c@default>
Message-ID: <003b01c27a59$b6cd96c0$5676f342@oemcomputer>

Dean, This stove is simple, inexpensive and easy to
build with hand tools but needs work on fuel efficiency. I just hope
that after we solve the efficiency problem that the stove is still simple.

Lanny

----- Original Message -----
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black">From:
Dean Still
To: <A href="mailto:stoves@crest.org"
title=stoves@crest.org>stoves@crest.org
Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 1:05
AM
Subject: Re: Lanny's Simple Camp Fire
Stove

Dear Lanny,

I have thought that this solution might be a great candidate
for a "World Stove". It is simple, inexpensive, has really good heat transfer
to the pot, and removes smoke from the kitchen. Sam Baldwin and Micuta used
the idea in Africa showing the practicality of shielding the fire and creating
a optimal gap around the pot.

What I like best about this design is that the fire directly
hits the pot helping to cool temperatures of the sheet metal stove body, which
protects the metal. It's cheap enough that a family could have one for every
pot.

I like to add some of the Rocket parts to it: a shelf so
that wood sticks are separated, a internal grate to lift sticks above the
earth, and block as much air as you can going over the sticks and have as fast
air as you can get going into the coals. As Ron says, insulating the outer
body helps a little but not very much since the combustion chamber is so
large.

This is such a elegant stove. If you weren't going to go the
insulated combustion chamber route to clean up emissions, I would recommend
this concept as efficient and well engineered. I wish folks were building
these instead of Lorena's...

Best,

Dean
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">

From psanders at ilstu.edu Wed Oct 23 07:06:13 2002
From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:22 2004
Subject: History of very small true gasifier units
In-Reply-To: <004d01c273ae$66d787e0$2a47fea9@md>
Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20021023092145.01bee100@mail.ilstu.edu>

Stovers and friends,

About this "top-lighted straw burner", the original message was:

> > > >I heard anecdotal evidence of a very low cost string bound straw
>'sausage'
> > > >'briquette' being used to cook in Kampala restaurants. It was placed
>into a
> > > >fairly tight fitting metal can and top lit. The diameter was on the
>order
> > > >of 5 inches. It apparenetly burned very cleanly and was the cheapest
>fuel
> > > >around..

Can the original writer define "fairly tight fitting metal can"?

There is NO mention of air entering from the bottom. Maybe it was
unintentional (as with a badly made can). But as it reads, there user of
the "fairly tight fitting metal can" apparently did not realize that an
up-draft (or IDD) pyrolysizing unit was in operation. And probably still
does not realize it. (continue below)

>Tom Reed wrote:
>Glad to hear of the "sausage" cooker. But I don't agree that there weren't
>holes in the bottom. Without the holes only a cm or two would burn because
>air can't enter from the top while gas is exiting.

I am not disagreeing with what Tom and others are saying. I say the we
have insufficient evidence that this straw burner was in fact really a
"gasifier" that some seem to think that it must be. More info please.

Anyone else have any stories or info for the "history of very small true
gasifier units"??

Ron, any info about the "Mormon stove" that you mentioned was made of 2
holes in the ground? It could CLEARLY be an early gasifier if the holes
were connected at the bottom, with primary air going down one hole and then
up in the hole with the fuel. And top lighted?? Before I dig holes in my
yard, I hope someone can send me further information.

By the way, considering the poverty conditions in Mozambique and in refugee
camps and elsewhere, this "Mormon stove" two-holes in the ground method
DOES have potential for 21st century applications.

Paul

Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
Rotary University Teacher Grantee to Mozambique >10 mo of 2001-2003
Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders

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From psanders at ilstu.edu Wed Oct 23 07:15:30 2002
From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:22 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Market for small scale gasifiers & open burning regulations
In-Reply-To: <004d01c273ae$66d787e0$2a47fea9@md>
Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20021023101643.01c06640@mail.ilstu.edu>

Victor,

The discussion on "small scale gasifiers" has centered in the Stoves List
Serve. If you are not subscribed there, I suggest that you do so.

Much confusion on the meaning of "small scale". Mine are "tiny" or
"micro". Gus Johansson's company in South Africa has a 6kwh unit that sell
for about US$14,000 complete with IC motor to run generator. And he has
made others even smaller but focuses on 100 kwh and I think up to 300 kwh
systems. He is elderly and not on any List Serve, but can be contacted via
me or via Tom Reed.

Would you please define what is "small scale" and what you would actually want.

Paul

At 11:15 PM 10/21/02 -0400, you wrote:
>I have been very impressed with the dearth of knowledge on this listserv.
>
>I am curious if anyone knows what the market is like for small scale
>gasifiers. The sort of markets that I would be looking at are smaller scale
>i.e., farms, municipalities...
>
>Also, does anyone have any information on which states have enacted open
>burning regulations? In other words, regulations that forbid local burning?
>As far as I know, there are laws at the state level that forbid or regulate
>local burning, but no Federal laws.
>
>Thanks guys.
>
>-Victor Hsu
>
>
>Gasification List Moderator:
>Tom Reed, Biomass Energy Foundation, tombreed@attbi.com Biomass =
>Energy Foundation, www.woodgas.com
>List-Post: <mailto:gasification@crest.org>
>List-Help: <mailto:gasification-help@crest.org>
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>-
>Gasification List Archives
>http://www.crest.org/discussion/gasification/200202/
>Bioenergy 2002 http://www.bioenergy2002.org/
>200 kWe CHP Discussion
>http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/gasification/200kWCHP.html
>Gasification Reference
>http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html
>
> >

Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
Rotary University Teacher Grantee to Mozambique >10 mo of 2001-2003
Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders

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From psanders at ilstu.edu Wed Oct 23 07:56:03 2002
From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:22 2004
Subject: History of very small true gasifier units
In-Reply-To: <NGBBKDEHILILFNJPHEFIGEALCDAA.ronallarson@qwest.net>
Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20021023105930.01c06c50@mail.ilstu.edu>

Richard and all,

This could be a stove of interest. We await more info and the jpeg
picture.

But I thought there was also a gasifier in Thailand, and that it might be
horizontal. ANYONE have info about it? Or about other
small gasifiers??

Paul

At 05:48 AM 10/22/02 -0700, richard stanley wrote:

Ron, Tom, Paul, Alex et al.,

I'm on my way back to Kampala where I am based for the nextr several
months. I had visited a forest department training center in NYABAYA and
spoke with a one Richard Kisakye ("kisat-che"), the head of
their biomass program, who showed me a gassifying stove with many samples
of feed stock including vertically stacked straw. This is probably the
mystery stove you are seeking info about. I will chase it up next week on
return there.

Richard does not have email but I do have his phone contact and a jpeg of
the stove which I can send along when I return.

Richard Stanley

Do you Yahoo!?
New DSL
Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo!
Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 -
7/00
Rotary University Teacher Grantee to Mozambique >10 mo of
2001-2003
Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State
University
Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice:
309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items:
www.ilstu.edu/~psanders

From Carefreeland at aol.com Wed Oct 23 15:58:40 2002
From: Carefreeland at aol.com (Carefreeland@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:22 2004
Subject: Lanny's Simple Camp Fire Stove
Message-ID: <73.27fc62d7.2ae88cc2@aol.com>

> Dan's Comments

> Good stove idea Lanny. Good thoughts Ron. The most logical two ways I see to approach this problem are to raise the firebox height, or make a higher exhaust port.
> To raise the firebox height, add another can to the bottom. To make a higher exhaust port try a manifold that draws from more than one point under the pot. Try a horizontal slot say 2/3 the diameter, just under the pot lip. Adjust the vertical width of the slot until the proper dimension balances to the airflow in the chimney.
Dan Dimiduk

From tombreed at attbi.com Thu Oct 24 06:01:29 2002
From: tombreed at attbi.com (Tom Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:22 2004
Subject: Tuffa vs Approvechite
In-Reply-To: <002f01c27b61$ded8f5c0$ac1e6c0c@default>
Message-ID: <05dc01c27b3d$74698890$a48cfd0c@TOMBREED>

Dear Dean and All:

Tuffa sounds great. However, it doesn't occur
everywhere and would require shipping in big chunks, so costly.

Here's a challenge for Aprovecho.

The ideal stove insulation would

o have zero mass
o have a
melting point over 1000 C (white heat)
o high strength,
o be easily formed into elbows, liners, cones
etc
o be cheap
o be available worldwide for local
fabrication.

We know that spun Mullite (an alumino silicate,
inherently cheap and available worldwide under names such as Kaowool) can
withstand 1600C. We'd like to know more about rock wool, also widely
available in various forms, probably doesn't withstand more than 1100C but may
be adequate. I think it is made from spun slag, but start research at

<A
href="http://www.amerrock.com/news.htm">http://www.amerrock.com/news.htm.
(It's also used for hydroponics. We know that fibreglas melts at 600C so
would NOT be adequate.

We also know that Mullite and rockwool can be
formed with a mild vacuum into sleeves (riser sleeves),
crucibles, board etc. (Starch binder?) We also know that Mullite can
be hardened with an amorphous silica surface (commercially expensive, but
probably cheap, made from water glass, also worldwide available.)

So I hope that Aprovecho can use some of its
creative minds to put together a good insulation program that can be implemented
in villages, towns, cities around the world to make ALL shapes of stoves.

Forget clay for the fireside insulation. OK
for the outside.

Your booster/pusher,

TOM
REED
Biomass Energy Foundation
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
----- Original Message -----
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black">From:
Dean Still
To: <A title=ethos@vrac.iastate.edu
href="mailto:ethos@vrac.iastate.edu">ethos
Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 7:11
AM
Subject: [ethos] Fw: Tuffa

Dear Friends,

Tuffa sounds like Larry's dream material: chunks of pumice
large enough to carve out a Rocket elbow!! In our part of the world it is rare
to find rocks big enough but I'm hoping that tuffa will be great for
combustion chambers... Roberto, please keep us informed! Y buenas suerte,
socio!

What a great heating, cooking stove you could make from
really big tuffa rocks! I imagine the rock glowing in the
darkness.

Best,

Dean
-----Original Message-----From:
Roberto Escardó <<A
href="mailto:robertoescardo@arnet.com.ar">robertoescardo@arnet.com.ar>To:
Dean Still <<A
href="mailto:dstill@epud.net">dstill@epud.net>Date:
Wednesday, October 23, 2002 8:23 PMSubject:
Tuffa
I was today with a geologist in our
University and she eplained me that TUFFA is CONSOLIDATED PUMICE
!!! (In fact they are the same material)
I hope to get some samples and try it
for combustion chambers. Looks promising.
Un abrazo
Roberto

I also get some values for thermal
conductivity of pumice: <SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial Narrow; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: Times New Roman; mso-bidi-font-family: Times New Roman; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">about
0.2 kcal/mh °C. It corresponds to a coefficient of thermal transmittance
K=0.58 Kcal/m2 h °C. ( When I find my table I will give you
an R equivalent) It depens on granulometry.
<SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial Narrow; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: Times New Roman; mso-bidi-font-family: Times New Roman; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">
<SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial Narrow; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: Times New Roman; mso-bidi-font-family: Times New Roman; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">
<SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial Narrow; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: Times New Roman; mso-bidi-font-family: Times New Roman; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">
<SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial Narrow; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: Times New Roman; mso-bidi-font-family: Times New Roman; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">

From kchisholm at ca.inter.net Thu Oct 24 06:22:20 2002
From: kchisholm at ca.inter.net (Kevin Chisholm)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:22 2004
Subject: Tuffa vs Approvechite
In-Reply-To: <002f01c27b61$ded8f5c0$ac1e6c0c@default>
Message-ID: <005e01c27b68$aa57ef20$019a0a40@kevin>

Dear Tom

The insulations can have a relatively high melting point, if
they do not contact ash..... the ash fluxes the insulation. While the Mullite is
an aluminum silicate, wood ash can introduce potassium and calcium oxides.

Sadly, for durability considerations, I would suggest that the
wall profile of a stove must be as follows:
1: Steel outer jacket
2: Liner of insulating refractory
INSIDE the steel.
3: Hard refractory inside liner, to prevent
ash and flame contact with teh insulation.

Now, this is not all bad.... the good result here is that the
insulation that is protected with a refractory inner liner can be of lower
quality. A lower grade "rock wool insulation" could be used.

Kindest regards,

Kevin Chisholm

<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
----- Original Message -----
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black">From:
Tom Reed

To: <A title=dstill@epud.net
href="mailto:dstill@epud.net">Dean Still ; <A title=Stoves@crest.org
href="mailto:Stoves@crest.org">Stoves ; <A title=das@eagle-access.net
href="mailto:das@eagle-access.net">Agua Das
Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 6:12
AM
Subject: Tuffa vs Approvechite

Dear Dean and All:

Tuffa sounds great. However, it doesn't
occur everywhere and would require shipping in big chunks, so costly.

Here's a challenge for Aprovecho.

The ideal stove insulation would

o have zero mass
o have
a melting point over 1000 C (white heat)
o high strength,
o be easily formed into elbows, liners, cones
etc
o be cheap
o be available worldwide for local
fabrication.

We know that spun Mullite (an alumino silicate,
inherently cheap and available worldwide under names such as Kaowool) can
withstand 1600C. We'd like to know more about rock wool, also widely
available in various forms, probably doesn't withstand more than 1100C but may
be adequate. I think it is made from spun slag, but start research at

<A
href="http://www.amerrock.com/news.htm">http://www.amerrock.com/news.htm.
(It's also used for hydroponics. We know that fibreglas melts at 600C so
would NOT be adequate.

We also know that Mullite and rockwool can be
formed with a mild vacuum into sleeves (riser sleeves),
crucibles, board etc. (Starch binder?) We also know that Mullite
can be hardened with an amorphous silica surface (commercially expensive, but
probably cheap, made from water glass, also worldwide available.)

So I hope that Aprovecho can use some of its
creative minds to put together a good insulation program that can be
implemented in villages, towns, cities around the world to make ALL shapes of
stoves.

Forget clay for the fireside insulation. OK
for the outside.

Your booster/pusher,

TOM
REED
Biomass Energy Foundation
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
----- Original Message -----
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black">From:
Dean Still
To: <A title=ethos@vrac.iastate.edu
href="mailto:ethos@vrac.iastate.edu">ethos
Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 7:11
AM
Subject: [ethos] Fw: Tuffa

Dear Friends,

Tuffa sounds like Larry's dream material: chunks of pumice
large enough to carve out a Rocket elbow!! In our part of the world it is
rare to find rocks big enough but I'm hoping that tuffa will be great for
combustion chambers... Roberto, please keep us informed! Y buenas suerte,
socio!

What a great heating, cooking stove you could make from
really big tuffa rocks! I imagine the rock glowing in the
darkness.

Best,

Dean
-----Original Message-----From:
Roberto Escardó <<A
href="mailto:robertoescardo@arnet.com.ar">robertoescardo@arnet.com.ar>To:
Dean Still <<A
href="mailto:dstill@epud.net">dstill@epud.net>Date:
Wednesday, October 23, 2002 8:23 PMSubject:
Tuffa
I was today with a geologist in our
University and she eplained me that TUFFA is CONSOLIDATED PUMICE
!!! (In fact they are the same material)
I hope to get some samples and try it
for combustion chambers. Looks promising.
Un abrazo
Roberto

I also get some values for thermal
conductivity of pumice: <SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial Narrow; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: Times New Roman; mso-bidi-font-family: Times New Roman; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">about
0.2 kcal/mh °C. It corresponds to a coefficient of thermal transmittance
K=0.58 Kcal/m2 h °C. ( When I find my table I will give you
an R equivalent) It depens on granulometry.
<SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial Narrow; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: Times New Roman; mso-bidi-font-family: Times New Roman; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">
<SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial Narrow; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: Times New Roman; mso-bidi-font-family: Times New Roman; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">
<SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial Narrow; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: Times New Roman; mso-bidi-font-family: Times New Roman; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">
<SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial Narrow; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: Times New Roman; mso-bidi-font-family: Times New Roman; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">

From psanders at ilstu.edu Thu Oct 24 09:48:52 2002
From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:22 2004
Subject: History of very small true gasifier units
In-Reply-To: <142.11650ad.2ae89b60@aol.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20021024125319.01c1c100@mail.ilstu.edu>

Stovers,

I am forwarding Dan's recent comment to me. Very interesting.

Dan's note says "Most had some way to draw
or force air through another hole and introduce it directly to the
coals." Therefore, that would not be a gasifier (pyrolysis)
unit.

I will also add that if the "Mormon stove" with 2 holes
in the ground was BOTTOM lighted, then it be more akin to regular burning
pits or to the Rocket stove.

Paul

At 08:40 PM 10/23/02 -0400, you wrote:
In a message dated
10/23/02 11:05:19 AM Eastern Daylight Time, psanders@ilstu.edu
writes:

> Dan's comment's

Ron, any info about the "Mormon
stove" that you mentioned was made of 2
holes in the ground? It could CLEARLY be an early gasifier if the
holes
were connected at the bottom, with primary air going down one hole and
then
up in the hole with the fuel. And top lighted?? Before I dig
holes in my
yard, I hope someone can send me further information.

By the way, considering the poverty conditions in Mozambique and in
refugee
camps and elsewhere, this "Mormon stove" two-holes in the
ground method
DOES have potential for 21st century applications.

Paul
> Paul,
Glad you're back. I don't have any
specific info on the Mormon stove you speak of. I can however, state that
many historic metal working operations dating back to Egyptian pyramid
time used a hole in the ground concept. Most had some way to draw or
force air through another hole and introduce it directly to the
coals. There is now some evidence that hot ironworking
experimentation was well underway by then.
The earliest above ground metal
heating stoves were carved into the side of a cliff. Sandstone was the
preferred rock type as it was easy to carve and the perfect natural
refractory. I have walked through an early 1800s (built in the
1820s?) blast furnace in south central Ohio that was carved out of a 30ft
sandstone cliff. This furnace had tunnels CARVED around it close enough
to pick up preheat for the air intake. I believe this shows the
importance of preheating over forced air. Many air forcing techniques had
been developed by then. Ohio was just a primitive outback state
then.
We can mimic this technique of
digging into a compacted mound of clay or carving into a rock outcrop. Or
we can use a sandstone boulder just small enough to move and carve a lot
of weight out of it. If the sandstone is available "just out the
back door."
My guess is that there was some
knowledge of the benefit of the steam reforming reactions involved in
these designs. The moisture being drawn out of the earth and preheated to
steam temperatures prior to introduction into the coals. I am also
suspicious that with the addition of some steam, the exhaust was lighter
and produced a stronger draft.
This is a very important factor not
to be underestimated ;-).
Dan Dimiduk

From dstill at epud.net Thu Oct 24 10:18:51 2002
From: dstill at epud.net (Dean Still)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:22 2004
Subject: Tuffa vs Approvechite
Message-ID: <003301c27b7c$81276900$dc1e6c0c@default>

Dear Kevin and Tom,

Roberto Escardo wrote:

"I was today with a geologist in our
University and she eplained me that TUFFA is CONSOLIDATED PUMICE !!!
(In fact they are the same material)
I hope to get some samples and try it for
combustion chambers. Looks promising.
Un abrazo
Roberto

I also get some values for thermal
conductivity of pumice: <SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial Narrow; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: Times New Roman; mso-bidi-font-family: Times New Roman; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">about
0.2 kcal/mh °C. It corresponds to a coefficient of thermal transmittance
K=0.58 Kcal/m2 h °C. ( When I find my table I will give you
an R equivalent) It depends on
granulometry."
<SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial Narrow; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: Times New Roman; mso-bidi-font-family: Times New Roman; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">
Both Tom and Kevin wonder
about clay near the fire in combustion chambers and suggested alternatives.
Aprovecho is investigating two recipes for combustion chambers, both to be fired
by local brickmakers:

1.) 50% clay plus 50%
sawdust or other fine burnable material
2.) 85% perlite or pumice plus 15%
clay

Both recipes seem to make
durable insulative refractory materials. The second recipe is about .4 the
weight of water by volume. We are doing tests of durability and so far the first
recipe has been fired more than 100 times without much degradation. The second
recipe has withstood 50 heating and cooling cycles without apparent damage. BUT,
classes at the University of Dayton, directed by Dr. Margaret Pinnell, are
coming up with much more quantified data.

So far, clay seems to be
doing ok on it's own without a harder inner liner but everyone here agrees that
a hard refractory inside liner should protect the softer insulation from sticks
being pushed against the lower portion of the back inner wall.

I'll send samples
to Stuart Conway so the Colorado group can check it out at the November CO/CO2
meeting...

Best,

Dean

<SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial Narrow; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: Times New Roman; mso-bidi-font-family: Times New Roman; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">

From tmiles at trmiles.com Thu Oct 24 14:45:06 2002
From: tmiles at trmiles.com (Tom Miles)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:23 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Market for small scale gasifiers & open burning regulations
In-Reply-To: <004d01c273ae$66d787e0$2a47fea9@md>
Message-ID: <03a301c27bae$7cbef310$6601a8c0@tommain>

Paul

The System Johansson Gasproducer is apparently also being developed by Eskom
Enterprises, a South African utlity
http://www.eskomenterprises.co.za/main/Casestudies/TSIcases/systemjohansson.htm

I understand that Gus has about a dozen systems operating. A firm in the US is in the
process of licensing the Johansson designs suitable for 100 kWe CHP at a pilot
facility to be installed somewhere in the east.

Tom

----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul S. Anderson" <psanders@ilstu.edu>
To: "Victor Hsu" <vjh201@stern.nyu.edu>; <stoves@crest.org>
Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 8:24 AM
Subject: Re: GAS-L: Market for small scale gasifiers & open burning regulations

> Victor,
>
> The discussion on "small scale gasifiers" has centered in the Stoves List
> Serve. If you are not subscribed there, I suggest that you do so.
>
> Much confusion on the meaning of "small scale". Mine are "tiny" or
> "micro". Gus Johansson's company in South Africa has a 6kwh unit that sell
> for about US$14,000 complete with IC motor to run generator. And he has
> made others even smaller but focuses on 100 kwh and I think up to 300 kwh
> systems. He is elderly and not on any List Serve, but can be contacted via
> me or via Tom Reed.
>
> Would you please define what is "small scale" and what you would actually want.
>
> Paul
>
> At 11:15 PM 10/21/02 -0400, you wrote:
> >I have been very impressed with the dearth of knowledge on this listserv.
> >
> >I am curious if anyone knows what the market is like for small scale
> >gasifiers. The sort of markets that I would be looking at are smaller scale
> >i.e., farms, municipalities...
> >
> >Also, does anyone have any information on which states have enacted open
> >burning regulations? In other words, regulations that forbid local burning?
> >As far as I know, there are laws at the state level that forbid or regulate
> >local burning, but no Federal laws.
> >
> >Thanks guys.
> >
> >-Victor Hsu
> >
> >
> >Gasification List Moderator:
> >Tom Reed, Biomass Energy Foundation, tombreed@attbi.com Biomass =
> >Energy Foundation, www.woodgas.com
> >List-Post: <mailto:gasification@crest.org>
> >List-Help: <mailto:gasification-help@crest.org>
> >List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:gasification-unsubscribe@crest.org>
> >List-Subscribe: <mailto:gasification-subscribe@crest.org>
> >-
> >Gasification List Archives
> >http://www.crest.org/discussion/gasification/200202/
> >Bioenergy 2002 http://www.bioenergy2002.org/
> >200 kWe CHP Discussion
> >http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/gasification/200kWCHP.html
> >Gasification Reference
> >http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html
> >
> > >
>
> Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
> Rotary University Teacher Grantee to Mozambique >10 mo of 2001-2003
> Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
> Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
> E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders
>
>
> -
> Stoves List Archives and Website:
> http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200209/
> http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
> >
> Stoves List Moderators:
> Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
> Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
>
> Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon
>
> List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
> List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
> List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>
> >
> For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
> >http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Chambers/Chambers.htm
>

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>
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>http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Chambers/Chambers.htm

From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Thu Oct 24 20:21:58 2002
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:23 2004
Subject: Tuffa vs Approvechite
In-Reply-To: <002f01c27b61$ded8f5c0$ac1e6c0c@default>
Message-ID: <20021025041817.GA18303@cybershamanix.com>

Seems like tufa would be something that could be ground up and then
"recreated" on site in molds.

"Tufa is formed when water evaporates from lime-rich waters, leaving calcite
(calcium carbonate) to crystallize, often with impurities of iron oxides (rust),
which give tufa its yellow and red coloration."
"Tufa is formed on cliffs, caves and quarry faces where limestone is naturally
occurring. This rock can form very quickly if conditions are favourable. Plants,
mosses and invertebrates often become encrusted in the calcite, and preserved as
fossils."

http://www.tufa.bc.ca/tufa_history.htm

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

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>
For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
>http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Chambers/Chambers.htm

From psanders at ilstu.edu Fri Oct 25 10:22:33 2002
From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:23 2004
Subject: Theory and terminology questions about combustion
In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20021015155153.01f588f0@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20021025131521.01c163e0@mail.ilstu.edu>

Stovers,

Andrew has been very helpful, and this comment is to re-state a fact that
will be very important in a future message I am preparing.

Paul

> > In other words,
> >even in a regular "fire" of biomass, is it not true that the gases are
> >created first, even if the gases are almost immediately "burned"? Hence,
> >there is no "fire" without gasification first.
>
>OK in general

Summary: Except for exceptional cases that might be theoretical or
artificially generated (that is, NOT regular biomass burning), "regular
biomass can only be consumed in fire when first it undergoes the release of
the gases (pyrolysis and gasification) that are subsequently combusted when
mixed with oxygen and sufficient ignition."
(If not ignited, then there is "smoke" and released gases into the air).

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From psanders at ilstu.edu Fri Oct 25 14:05:10 2002
From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:23 2004
Subject: History of small gasifiers. Re: straw briquettes
In-Reply-To: <004d01c273ae$66d787e0$2a47fea9@md>
Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20021025171010.01bf9e00@mail.ilstu.edu>

Crispin and any stovers near Kampala,

Can anyone provide further information about this straw briquette and its
can and top lighting. Crispin said "anectotal evidence". Has anyone seen
such a thing? Anyone in East Africa who could provide further info?

Paul

>On Mon, 14 Oct 2002 20:13:47 +0200, "Crispin" <crispin@newdawn.sz>
>wrote:
>
> >Dear Andrew
> >
> >I heard anecdotal evidence of a very low cost string bound straw 'sausage'
> >'briquette' being used to cook in Kampala restaurants. It was placed into a
> >fairly tight fitting metal can and top lit. The diameter was on the order
> >of 5 inches. It apparenetly burned very cleanly and was the cheapest fuel
> >around..
>
>Nice one! Just shows most things have been thought of. I wonder if it
>predates the Reed-Larson idd stove? Does it burn out the char?
>
>AJH
>
>-
>Stoves List Archives and Website:
>http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200209/
>http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
> >
>Stoves List Moderators:
>Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
>Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
>
>Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
>http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
>http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
>http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon
>
>List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
>List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
>List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
>List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>
> >
>For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
> >http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Chambers/Chambers.htm

Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
Rotary University Teacher Grantee to Mozambique >10 mo of 2001-2003
Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders

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From lanny at roman.net Fri Oct 25 14:08:03 2002
From: lanny at roman.net (Lanny Henson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:23 2004
Subject: Camp Fire Stove modification #1
Message-ID: <000201c27c8c$107a2060$9576f342@oemcomputer>

To improve the efficiency of the Simple Camp Fire Stove I added a third
piece, a sleeve to focus the heat on onto the pot. The exhaust was a lot
cooler and slower so I could tell that more heat was going into the pot it
still took 12 min to boil 6 quarts. Next time I will open up the gaps at
the top tabs to allow a little more flow. At one point I was adding wood to
the stove in 3 places.
I like the sleeve so now I need to do something about the fire. The
combustion area is too large. It is about 11" dia and about 6" tall.
How would we improve the burn with only 1 more simple piece, maybe 2 ?
Lanny
MOD #1
http://www.lanny.us/campfs1.html

First 2 part stove
http://www.lanny.us/campfs.html

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From andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com Sat Oct 26 00:47:09 2002
From: andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com (AJH)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:23 2004
Subject: 100KW size? (was Re: GAS-L: Great persons in gasification - Gus Johansson)
In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20021025172914.01c16d10@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <nmjkrugqg0o5plf1rfpqfvqt520888vfia@4ax.com>

On Fri, 25 Oct 2002 22:09:03 -0500, Harmon Seaver
<hseaver@cybershamanix.com> wrote:

>
> About how large is a 100K gasifier and how much woodchips per hr would one
>take?

The gasifier may not be much bigger than the genset, the pipe work and
gas cleanup tend to occupy a lot of space, I never measured actual
dimensions of the ones I have seen. They all seemed to measure run
time in tens of hours per annum rather than 8000+.

Simplistically the fuel consumption is dependant on the cold gas
efficiency and the engine fuel to motive power conversion. In a simple
system the product of these two numbers will be in the order of 20%.
So 100kW(e) will need about 500kW(t) of energy input. 1kg of dry wood
will have a cv of ~18-20MJ which is at worst 5kWhr. Therefore to run
the gasifier to support this electrical demand, assuming negligible
char in the ash from the gasifier, for 1hr you will consume 100kg of
dry wood plus its associated moisture.

Cordner Peacocke and Doug Williams have frequently posted on the
pitfalls and problems in putting this into practice on Gas-L.

AJH

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From tmiles at trmiles.com Sat Oct 26 09:02:39 2002
From: tmiles at trmiles.com (Tom Miles)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:23 2004
Subject: 100KW size? (was Re: GAS-L: Great persons in gasification - Gus Johansson)
In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20021025172914.01c16d10@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <00df01c27d10$fb34de90$6601a8c0@tommain>

All of which in practice leads to about 1.4 kg wood/kWh or about 700 kWh per tonne
(or solid cubic meter).
(Of course there will be 10,000 exceptions. :-))

Tom Miles

----- Original Message -----
From: "AJH" <andrew.heggie@dtn.ntl.com>
To: <stoves@crest.org>
Cc: <gasification@crest.org>
Sent: Saturday, October 26, 2002 1:43 AM
Subject: Re: 100KW size? (was Re: GAS-L: Great persons in gasification - Gus
Johansson)

> On Fri, 25 Oct 2002 22:09:03 -0500, Harmon Seaver
> <hseaver@cybershamanix.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > About how large is a 100K gasifier and how much woodchips per hr would one
> >take?
>
> The gasifier may not be much bigger than the genset, the pipe work and
> gas cleanup tend to occupy a lot of space, I never measured actual
> dimensions of the ones I have seen. They all seemed to measure run
> time in tens of hours per annum rather than 8000+.
>
> Simplistically the fuel consumption is dependant on the cold gas
> efficiency and the engine fuel to motive power conversion. In a simple
> system the product of these two numbers will be in the order of 20%.
> So 100kW(e) will need about 500kW(t) of energy input. 1kg of dry wood
> will have a cv of ~18-20MJ which is at worst 5kWhr. Therefore to run
> the gasifier to support this electrical demand, assuming negligible
> char in the ash from the gasifier, for 1hr you will consume 100kg of
> dry wood plus its associated moisture.
>
> Cordner Peacocke and Doug Williams have frequently posted on the
> pitfalls and problems in putting this into practice on Gas-L.
>
> AJH
>
> -
> Stoves List Archives and Website:
> http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200209/
> http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
> >
> Stoves List Moderators:
> Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
> Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
>
> Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon
>
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> >
> For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
> >http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Chambers/Chambers.htm
>
>

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From andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com Sat Oct 26 14:25:03 2002
From: andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com (AJH)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:23 2004
Subject: Theory and terminology questions about combustion
In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20021015155153.01f588f0@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <up3mru0d2kkv6p8mf9hvna3sn211hshqjl@4ax.com>

On Fri, 25 Oct 2002 13:29:39 -0500, "Paul S. Anderson" <psande
>> > In other words,
>> >even in a regular "fire" of biomass, is it not true that the gases are
>> >created first, even if the gases are almost immediately "burned"? Hence,
>> >there is no "fire" without gasification first.

You are missing the point that charcoal is formed, this charcoal can
burn (oxidise) directly to a gas (CO2 or CO depending on conditions).

AJH

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From tombreed at attbi.com Sun Oct 27 04:33:46 2002
From: tombreed at attbi.com (Tom Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:23 2004
Subject: Better approximation to biomass...
Message-ID: <009c01c27d7d$81984820$a48cfd0c@TOMBREED>

Dear Ron and Stovers:

Ron Larson recently said..

> [Ron Larson]: A simplified chemical formula for much of the dry biomass
>used in small stoves is "CH2O".

For instance, this would give a "biomass combustion equation" of

CH2O + O2 + 3.76 N2 ==> CO2 + H2O + 3.76N2

with an air fuel ratio of ((32+(3.76*28)/(12+18) = 4.58.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This is a good approximation, and since the formula looks like Carbon and
Water, we get the name "carbohydrate" from this formula.

However, in Ray Desrosier's paper on the thermodynamics of biomass he
examined the actual ultimate analyses of wood and other species. He arrived
at the formula

C H1.4 O0.6

and this is the formula that I recommend you paste on your wall for "typical
biomass". Most forms of biomass are very close to this (on a DRY ASH FREE
BASIS, DAF) and you can check out the compositions and heats of combustion
of many examples on my website at www.woodgas.com. The deviation is
primarily due to the presence of lignin which is much more of a hydrocarbon
than the cellulose and hemicellulose.

So the combustion equation is C H1.4 O0.6 + 1.05(O2 + 3.76N2) ==> CO2 + 0.7
H2O + 3.95 N2

and the Air/Fuel ratio is 6.3, significantly different from 4.6, just as a
diet of carbohydrate, protein and fat is healthier than one of pure
carbohydrate. (High quaility ligninless paper probably comes closer to Ron's
approximate formula).

So, use CH2O for back of the envelope calculations and C H 1.4 O 0.6 for
engineering.

~~~~~~~
This is not a criticism of Ron's simplest approximation, since

"there is more joy in heaven over a good approximation than in the most
exact specific data".

Yours truly, TOM REED

Dr. Thomas B. Reed
1810 Smith Rd., Golden, CO 80401
tombreed@attbi.com; 303 278 0558 Phone/Fax

BEGIN:VCARD
VERSION:2.1
N:Reed;Thomas
FN:Thomas Reed
EMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:tombreed@home.com
REV:20021027T055551Z
END:VCARD

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From psanders at ilstu.edu Mon Oct 28 07:04:49 2002
From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:23 2004
Subject: History of small gasifiers. Re: straw briquettes
In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20021025171010.01bf9e00@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20021028100020.01c12c70@mail.ilstu.edu>

Stovers,

Alex sent this informative message. I wonder if anyone can carry this lead
any further, such as to contact Per S. Nielsen.

I find the topic of the history of the pyrolysis-gasifiers to be very
interesting, and I hope you can help with further info. I will eventually
write a short history and send it to the List serve. But I need info
first, including any experiences YOU have had with small pyrolysis-gasifier
stoves. (I only have the info about Reed, and Reed-Larson, and Anderson,
so far.) I am tracking on the Mormon Stove lead via Mormon historians.

Paul

At 08:40 PM 10/25/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Paul,
>When I was hosting the stoves web page I had a link to Per S Nielsen's
>Home page. He
>had a couple of related papers there, on of whick was about the Kampala
>top lit grass
>stove or Peko Pe. Unfortunately those links are dead now. The following is
>an abstract,
>but the real thing must be out there somewhere.
>
>Alex
>
>Efficiency tests on the pyrolysis gasifier stove Peko Pe
>Abstract
>This paper presents results from water boiling tests on the pyrolysis
>gasifier stove
>Peko Pe, which has been developed by the Norwegian Paal Wendelbo. The stove
>efficiency determined vary between 21 and 29% when burning dry Danish
>woodchips (10% moisture) with an estimated caloric value of 16 MJ/kg. CO-
>emissions have been determined with varying distance between the stove and
>the
>pot to estimate the combustion efficiency. Efficiency tests performed in
>Adjumani refugee camp with grass as fuel show a stove efficiency of 25-29%
>with a caloric value of 14 MJ/kg. It has not been possible to determine
>the water
>content in the grass. In Adjumani refugee camp it was furthermore found
>that the
>stove was able to provide sufficient energy from solid combustion, after the
>pyrolysis was stopped, to boil water for additional 25-30 minutes with
>lid. This
>effect was not seen in the tests on woodchips in Denmark. Advantages and
>disadvantages of the stove compared to three-stone stoves are discussed and
>perspectives are outlined for further improvements of the stove.
>
>If you want to download the entire paper (Word 6.0-document) then click here
>for zip-file (23000 bytes) and click here for Word-file (79360 bytes).
>
>
>
>
>
>
>On 25 Oct 2002 at 17:14, Paul S. Anderson wrote:
>
> > Crispin and any stovers near Kampala,
> >
> > Can anyone provide further information about this straw briquette and its
> > can and top lighting. Crispin said "anectotal evidence". Has anyone
> seen
> > such a thing? Anyone in East Africa who could provide further info?
> >
> > Paul
> >
> >

Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
Rotary University Teacher Grantee to Mozambique >10 mo of 2001-2003
Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders

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From andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com Mon Oct 28 11:43:34 2002
From: andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com (AJH)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:23 2004
Subject: History of small gasifiers. Re: straw briquettes
In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20021025171010.01bf9e00@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <ck7rruos0j508n0u88i3j98paekq4uqhnc@4ax.com>

On Mon, 28 Oct 2002 10:06:32 -0600, "Paul S. Anderson"
<psanders@ilstu.edu> wrote:

>>When I was hosting the stoves web page I had a link to Per S Nielsen's
>>Home page. He
>>had a couple of related papers there, on of whick was about the Kampala
>>top lit grass
>>stove or . Unfortunately those links are dead now. The following is
>>an abstract,
>>but the real thing must be out there somewhere.
>>
>>Alex

From psanders at ilstu.edu Mon Oct 28 12:43:24 2002
From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:23 2004
Subject: Fwd: Re: History of small gasifiers. Re: straw briquettes
Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20021028153910.01b1ef00@mail.ilstu.edu>

Tom Reed sent this great attachment about this 1996 gasifier.

>Dear Paul:
>
>On my "World Odyssey Trip" in 1996 I heard the Wendelbro stove discussed at
>the Danish Technical University and tracked it down. Attached is a
>description. They call it a pyrolysis stove - I call it a gasifier stove,
>but some deal as far as I can see.
Tom, Can you say why you call it a gasifier, when in fact it seems to
depend on pyrolysis?

Also, is there any background about when he actually got started building
it. You began in 1985 and published in 1995, but no indication in the
bibliography of the attachment about how this Wendelbro got started.

>Have they lost interest?
>
>TOM
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Paul S. Anderson" <psanders@ilstu.edu>
>To: <english@kingston.net>; <stoves@crest.org>
>Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 9:06 AM
>Subject: Re: History of small gasifiers. Re: straw briquettes
>
> > Stovers,
> >
> > Alex sent this informative message. I wonder if anyone can carry this
>lead
> > any further, such as to contact Per S. Nielsen.
> >

wendelbro2.doc

Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
Rotary University Teacher Grantee to Mozambique >10 mo of 2001-2003
Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders

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From psanders at ilstu.edu Thu Oct 31 04:57:50 2002
From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:23 2004
Subject: Fwd: [hedon] Solid fuel use ranks 8th in worldwide health burden - WHO report
Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20021031075642.01a52f00@mail.ilstu.edu>

>Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 09:07:09 +0000
>From: Grant Ballard-Tremeer <grant@ecoharmony.com>
>Subject: [hedon] Solid fuel use ranks 8th in worldwide health burden - WHO
> report
>
>
>Solid fuel use is now ranked 8th in health burden worldwide (lost
>healthy life years - DALYs), and ranked fourth in least-developed
>countries (which make up about 40% of the world population) according
>to the World Health Report 2002 due to be launched on 30 October. This
>report represents one of the largest research projects ever undertaken
>by the World Health Organization.
>
>The full report can be accessed online at http://www.who.int/whr/en.
>See Chapter 4 and Annexes 6-15 in particular for details related to
>environmental risk factors which include solid fuel use.
>
>Particularly relevant sections include:
>
>http://www.who.int/whr/2002/chapter4/en/index7.html
>
>and
>
>http://www.who.int/whr/2002/chapter4/en/index10.html#fig_4_10 -- see
>Figure 4.10
>
>Thanks to Kirk Smith for bringing the report to our attention.
>
>// Grant

Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
Rotary University Teacher Grantee to Mozambique >10 mo of 2001-2003
Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders

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From ronallarson at qwest.net Thu Oct 31 21:57:40 2002
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:23 2004
Subject: WHO report (and remediation costs)
In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20021031075642.01a52f00@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <NGBBKDEHILILFNJPHEFIGEJICDAA.ronallarson@qwest.net>

Paul and Grant:

Thanks for bring this WHO report to our attention.

I encourage others to read some of this (leads given by Grant are repeated
below)

I skimmed through for a few hours today and wonder if anyone can answer a
few questions:

1) Can anyone explain how to convert from US$ to I$?

2) The chapter 4 figures are helpful - but I think those in Chapter 5 are
equally so. There we learn what medical people are paying to save a "DALY".
A really good policy option seems to cost about I$1 to save a DALY (really
should think of I$10 Million for 10 million DALYs). But there are few
options that good - and health officials are considering 10 to 100 times as
much money (or that many fewer DALYs). There is no information in Chapter
5 on stoves.

3) Chapter 5 has nothing on indoor air emissions and associated DALYs. I
am guessing that the whole world of stoves is just too new for WHO - and we
in stoves could help get policy options into the next Chapter 5 if we
started a thread and perhps had some real data to share.

5) In the poorest developing countries, where "indoor smoke from solid
fuels" is the #4 killer - this category is approaching 4% of all DALYs. In
Africa Figure 4-11 shows a drop in life expectancy by 16 years from all
causes. Can anyone tell me what the "indoor smoke" category is in years
lost on average? (Is it perhaps 1 year for women and children? Or more?)

5) Two of the three higher categories are "underweight" and "water, etc"
which are perhaps related to stoves as well. Any comments from our health
experts on whether the 4% value for stoves is perhaps low? It is not clear
which health diagnoses are tracked back to this single cause.

7). Anyone able to give the DALYs for the category AFR-E - which seems to
be the part of the world most able to benefit from improved stoves? (But
also very big in Asia.)

8) Then we can perhaps multiply that number by I$10 to see if we/stoves can
be competitive in asking for health related preventive measures.

9. Has any stoves list member carried these computations along and gotten
an answer that they can share with all of us? Are there particular
countries (as opposed to regions) that stand out as being most appropriate
for this sort of approach? Do we have any idea where China and India would
stand in these regards?

Sorry this is a little scrambled - just don't have time to figure this all
out when I am sure we have members who have given it some thought.

Ron

>The full report can be accessed online at http://www.who.int/whr/en.
>See Chapter 4 and Annexes 6-15 in particular for details related to
>environmental risk factors which include solid fuel use.
>
>Particularly relevant sections include:
>
>http://www.who.int/whr/2002/chapter4/en/index7.html
>
>and
>
>http://www.who.int/whr/2002/chapter4/en/index10.html#fig_4_10 -- see
>Figure 4.10
>
>Thanks to Kirk Smith for bringing the report to our attention.

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BioEnergy Lists: Improved Biomass Cooking Stoves

October 2002 Biomass Cooking Stoves Archive