April 2004 Gasification Archive

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From andrew.heggie at DTN.NTL.COM Fri Apr 2 07:19:15 2004
From: andrew.heggie at DTN.NTL.COM (Andrew Heggie)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:01 2004
Subject: Maintaining the ignition of hot gases
In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20040402215405.01d13d20@mail.optusnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <FRI.2.APR.2004.131915.0100.>

On Fri, 02 Apr 2004 22:00:39 +1000, Peter Verhaart wrote to me but I
take the liberty of posting the conversation to [STOVES]:

>At 22:00 30/03/2004 +0100, AJH wrote:
>
>>Snip
>>
>>Has anyone else one of the "cigarette"[1] lighters that use
>>propane/butane and premix the gas:air but also have a small coil of, I
>>presume, a catalyst, just below the outlet. The premixed flame is just
>>off the top of the outlet, yet the metal coil can plainly be seen
>>glowing below it.
>>
>>AJH
>>[1] to the best of my knowledge mine has not lit any cigarettes
>
>Yes, whenever I and one of my sisters in law meet, I am given a cigarette
>lighter with a premixed flame. I now have one that plays a tune. I am
>hoping the batteries will give out but I will have to wait.
>My lighter has not lit any cigarettes, what it has lit is my wood burning
>downdraft barbecue and an occasional cigar (made in Indonesia).
>The coil may be platinum but the flame is lit by a spark from a piezo device.
>
>Peter Verhaart

Yes I assumed it was platinum, mine is also ignited by the piezzo
device (a crystal which produces a high voltage when struck).

What fascinates me about this use of a catalyst is that the coil
glows, so plainly there is an exothermic reaction at the coil, but the
flame, which is the two tone blue typical of a premixed "bunsen
burner" flame, is slightly detached from the burner. I say slightly
because I think I can make out a thin central jet which remains
attached.

Now I gather that the catalyst lowers the "threshold" at which
combustion takes place, but this flame separation suggests to me that
the catalytic action is rather to dissociate the butane into smaller
molecules, such as CO and H2, which then combine with more oxygen
above the burner.

It leads me to speculate on the possibility of recycling catalytic
exhaust parts into a stove combustion chamber.

AJH

From psanders at ILSTU.EDU Fri Apr 2 12:21:30 2004
From: psanders at ILSTU.EDU (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:01 2004
Subject: Maintaining the ignition of hot gases
In-Reply-To: <rfmq601nvjjbu8q79n0ot2000hp1hug15l@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.2.APR.2004.112130.0600.PSANDERS@ILSTU.EDU>

At 01:19 PM 4/2/04 +0100, Andrew Heggie wrote:
>(snip)
>It leads me to speculate on the possibility of recycling catalytic
>exhaust parts into a stove combustion chamber.

Very interesting comment. Can you please elaborate?

Paul

Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
Rotary University Teacher Grantee to Mozambique >10 mo of 2001-2003
Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders

From psanders at ILSTU.EDU Fri Apr 2 12:31:11 2004
From: psanders at ILSTU.EDU (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:01 2004
Subject: World Food Program stoves
In-Reply-To: <22572963.1080919686562.JavaMail.root@louie.psp.pas.earthli
nk.net>
Message-ID: <FRI.2.APR.2004.113111.0600.PSANDERS@ILSTU.EDU>

At 05:28 PM 4/2/04 +0200, peter scott wrote:
>(snip)
>FYI World Food Program just ordered 900 institutional stoves a la the
>version of the Rocket stove that I built last year in Moz, with local and
>cheap refractory cement and vermiculite.

Peter, please give us more details about the WFP purchase. Where to be
made, where to be used, any cost/budget info? etc. Our congratulations to
those who helped make this happen.

Paul
Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
Rotary University Teacher Grantee to Mozambique >10 mo of 2001-2003
Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders

From crispin at NEWDAWN.SZ Fri Apr 2 16:44:25 2004
From: crispin at NEWDAWN.SZ (Crispin Pemberton-Pigott)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:01 2004
Subject: World Food Program stoves
Message-ID: <FRI.2.APR.2004.234425.0200.>

Dear Stovers

I think this is absolutely marvellous. It is great that a large
organization has recognized the (obvious) benefits of using more modern
improved cooking devices.

This recognition is a wave that will lift all boats.

Peter, please give us more details about the WFP purchase. Where to be
made, where to be used, any cost/budget info? etc. Our congratulations
to
those who helped make this happen.

Paul

By the way, I have not received many stoves postings laterly and that
one from Peter did not come through. I presume that date is April 2 not
Feb 4 - yes??

Regards
Crispin

From Carefreeland at AOL.COM Fri Apr 2 19:19:26 2004
From: Carefreeland at AOL.COM (Carefreeland@AOL.COM)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:01 2004
Subject: Maintaining the ignition of hot gases
Message-ID: <FRI.2.APR.2004.191926.EST.>

In a message dated 4/2/04 7:20:56 AM Eastern Standard Time,
andrew.heggie@DTN.NTL.COM writes:

DD Dan Dimiduk responds
>
> Yes I assumed it was platinum, mine is also ignited by the piezzo
> device (a crystal which produces a high voltage when struck).
>
> What fascinates me about this use of a catalyst is that the coil
> glows, so plainly there is an exothermic reaction at the coil, but the
> flame, which is the two tone blue typical of a premixed "bunsen
> burner" flame, is slightly detached from the burner. I say slightly
> because I think I can make out a thin central jet which remains
> attached.
>
> Now I gather that the catalyst lowers the "threshold" at which
> combustion takes place, but this flame separation suggests to me that
> the catalytic action is rather to dissociate the butane into smaller
> molecules, such as CO and H2, which then combine with more oxygen
> above the burner.
>
> It leads me to speculate on the possibility of recycling catalytic
> exhaust parts into a stove combustion chamber.
>
> AJH
>
DD I have been collecting and saving various types of catalytic converters
from my buddies auto-shop for experiments with afterburners for afterburners. I
have a junkyard of old rusted kerosine convective heaters ranging from 8000
btu/ hr to 20,000 btu/ hr. I thought the burner screens or burner parts would
help to satisfy as key combustion components. Manganese is a good catalyst
and is present in high manganese steel. Use of forged, high strength components
assures a good supply of manganese in the steel.
DD I belive that centrifuging the gases as they are produced, can produce a
hydrogen rich stream and a carbon rich stream. These can be then seperated or
re-combined to control combustion. Food for thought.
Dan Dimiduk

From adkarve at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN Fri Apr 2 20:36:06 2004
From: adkarve at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN (adkarve)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:01 2004
Subject: Fw: height and weight of children
Message-ID: <SAT.3.APR.2004.070606.0530.ADKARVE@PN2.VSNL.NET.IN>

Dear Stovers,
you might have wondered why I introduced this subject of children's health into the stoves discussion group. Quantitative measurement of the effect of smoke on the health of humans is a difficult task. Some poisons are very slow, and it takes several decades before their ill effects manifest themself. Smoke is one of the slow poisons. Children are growing all the time, and their rate of growth is dependant on their health status. Therefoe, if we measured the height and weight of children in two adjacent villages, one of which has improved cooking devices in all the households and the other without, it is likely, that the children in smoke-free households may show a higher average rate of growth than the children growing in a smokey environment. If this assumption is correct, just two measurements, one at the beginning of the year, and the other at the end of the year, would allow us to calculate the annual rate of growth of the two populations of children. We shall of course consult statisticians who would design the experiment properly and also tell us the minimum sample size that has to be taken. Measuring the height and weight of a person is a non-invasive measurement and people would not mind, if somebody just measures and records the height and weight of their children.
Yours A.D.Karve

From adkarve at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN Fri Apr 2 20:54:37 2004
From: adkarve at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN (adkarve)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:01 2004
Subject: World Food Program stoves
Message-ID: <SAT.3.APR.2004.072437.0530.ADKARVE@PN2.VSNL.NET.IN>

Our organisation has already installed more than a thousand instituional
stoves and the demand is increasing. The farmers and villagers use cotton
stalks, maize cobs, midribs of palm leaves, coconut shells, stalks of
pigeonpea or branches of acacias as fuel. Because it is available to them
free of cost, they are not impressed by the argument that the improved
stoves would save fuel. But the Institutions and professional users, who
have to buy their fuel, are easily persuaded into installing one. Our
clients have mostly been schools, hostels, religious establishments,
restaurants, and food processing professional units. In many cases, the
cost of fuel saved in just the first fortnight was enough to pay for the
improved stove. The only difficulty we had was with Government
establishments, where the official in charge of fuel purchases gets a
commission, under the table, from the supplier. Since the commission is
generally a certain percentage of the cost of the items purchased, fuel
saving means lower commission. So even if the higher authorities have
ordered the improved stoves to be installed in that establishment, the local
official in charge of the establishment reprts that the improved stoves were
not functioning satisfactorily.
A.D.Karve
----- Original Message -----
From: Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <crispin@newdawn.sz>
To: <>
Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2004 3:14 AM
Subject: Re: [STOVES] World Food Program stoves

> Dear Stovers
>
> I think this is absolutely marvellous. It is great that a large
> organization has recognized the (obvious) benefits of using more modern
> improved cooking devices.
>
> This recognition is a wave that will lift all boats.
>
> At 05:28 PM 4/2/04 +0200, peter scott wrote:
> >(snip)
> >FYI World Food Program just ordered 900 institutional stoves a la the
> >version of the Rocket stove that I built last year in Moz, with local
> >and cheap refractory cement and vermiculite.
>
> Peter, please give us more details about the WFP purchase. Where to be
> made, where to be used, any cost/budget info? etc. Our congratulations
> to
> those who helped make this happen.
>
> Paul
>
> By the way, I have not received many stoves postings laterly and that
> one from Peter did not come through. I presume that date is April 2 not
> Feb 4 - yes??
>
> Regards
> Crispin

From tombreed at COMCAST.NET Sun Apr 4 09:26:00 2004
From: tombreed at COMCAST.NET (TBReed)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:01 2004
Subject: [ethos] pumice/cement/sodium silicate
Message-ID: <SUN.4.APR.2004.072600.0600.TOMBREED@COMCAST.NET>

Dear Stovers all:

It is my impression that pumice is a volcanic "glass", and as such may have
a low melting point (<600C). (Whoops, glass is technically a liquid and so
is a VERY viscous liquid even at room temperature. We should speak of a
molasses softening point. It is still soft enough to flow in real time when
you see it coming out of volcanoes on National Geographic at a dull red heat
= 650C.)

I hope someone will weigh in with more exact information on pumice.

Sodium silicate (water glass) is wonderful stuff and sets up nicely at room
temperature. However, it lowers the melting point of all other ceramics.

Since Portland cement incorporates water into its structure when it sets, it
isn't good for very high temperatures.

I hope some expert out there can quantify these reservations before we get
too enthusiastic. (Gretchen Larsen?)

Upward?

Tom Reed BEF
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stuart Conway" <stuart@treeswaterpeople.org>
To: "peter scott" <apropeter@earthlink.net>
Cc: <ethos@vrac.iastate.edu>
Sent: Friday, April 02, 2004 5:21 PM
Subject: Re: [ethos] pumice/cement/sodium silicate

> Peter,
>
> Congratulations on the big order from the World Food Program (WFP) which
is a natural partner for the Rocket stove worldwide due to the type of food
that they cook for school snacks and lunches.
>
> Stuart
>
> peter scott wrote:
>
> > Hi Damon et al.
> >
> > My counterpart , Christoph Kellner, who works with DED/ProBEC , has
discovered a large quantity of pumice in Lesotho and he was looking for some
more information about grading it as well as any thoughts on possible
mixtures with cement and/or water glass/sodium silicate. I recognize that
it is a bit of a long shot given the limitations of cement but still worth
an effort. We are actually getting good feedback on the cement vermiculite
household stoves in Durban - they are using ASTM portland whereas here in
Mozambique, who knows whats coming out of that bag - so maybe there is some
hope for a very cheap stove made with cement after all.
> >
> > Dale and Margie have been kind enough to do the testing on the various
clay/ cement/ pumice /sawdust etc bricks that we are making all over
Southern Africa.
> >
> > FYI World Food Program just ordered 900 institutional stoves a la the
version of the Rocket stove that I built last year in Moz, with local and
cheap refractory cement and vermiculite.
> >
> > Best
> >
> > Peter
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Dean Still
> > Sent: Mar 30, 2004 8:31 AM
> > To: ethos@vrac.iastate.edu
> > Subject: [ethos] FW: Honduras work
> >
> > Mike Hatfield writes:
> >
> >
> >
> > In the end I believe that in the production of a marketable stove for
Honduras we come in three intermingled stages, always works in progress, but
chronologically somewhat distinct. 1-- Determing the most viable form of
the marketable stove. 2-- Setting up the production of the stove and 3--
Marketing the stove. For the most part we have been grappling with the
first part (probably the easiest and most fun for us stove geeks) which can
be devided into eight main points at this time.
> >
> > 1) What Material do we use for the stove xbody? Our choices are
either find a way to produce a lightweight insulative ceramic or fall back
on the baldosa in a bucket surrounded by ash. Damon and myself spent most
of our time here mainly on trying to find a good local recipe for the first
choice (which is ideal, but it needs to be recognized that any light weight
brick is going to be less strong then the denser baldosa so actual in field
longevity will be the deciding factor). We tried some thirty different
recipes using mainly two different clays and varying amounts of sawdust and
water. We just pulled them out of the kiln on 27-3-04 and they tended to be
on the light side and under fired. We could not get them into the 30 hour
kiln of the brick maker Don Pedros so had to settle for renting a smaller
kiln and burning them for only 9 hours. We got to the low end of high
enough temps (960 C) but with insulative brick it is really important to
have the longer burns to!
> get the
> > heat saturated throughout the brick. The smaller kiln also may not have
reached this temp throughout the entire kiln. Because of the shorter burn
and possible lower temps the bricks shrank less (leaving them less dense)
and not becoming quite as hard as we expect or would like. We are now
making more bricks that should come out a bit stronger (and heavier) but we
feel it is the best compromise for the sake of longevity. They will get
fired after Damon and I leave in Don Pedros kiln and Larry and Agusto will
get them in the field for us. We feel we have a good recipe but as I said
lifespan in field will be interesting. If you are interested in the numbers
the bricks we made ranged ranged in density as low as .4 g/cc to 1.1 g/cc
(baldosas here are about 1.4). We have stated before that .8 would be a
nice number for our insulative bricks but we have decided to try for .9 to
give them a better chance in the field. If they survive with flying colors
we can lighten up la!
> ter.
> >
> > 2) Find a durable but cheep container for the stove xbody. This is
especially important for the insulative ceramic (IC) brick but a container
will be needed for the baldosa as well. The three options we are looking
into, all do-able and cheep, are tin bucket ($2), angle iron or platina at
strategic points around the stove which double as pot supports ($1-2), or a
ferro cement mix with pot supports embeded in it ($.50) We also will look
into making the body of the stove with a thin layer of pure clay as a built
in and very cheap container. We know this will work from bricks we have
made at Apro but the feasabilty of it will be seen when we decide upon the
production method.
> >
> > 3) Durable pot supports. At Apro we have been making our pot supports
built into the ceramic of the stove and made of the same material but have
decided here that for longevitiy it is best if they are made of metal and go
all the way to the ground to avoid passing the weight of the stove onto the
IC brick. Metal is rather cheep and a metal form for the stove which serves
as the pot suppot will cost as little as $.75 in material plus the labor
costs (which will vary depening upon whether we are producing them in house
or not).
> >
> > 4) Durability against sticks inside combustion chamber. If we go with
the baldosa combustion chamber this will not be an issue but if we use IC
then it will probably be the weakest link in the stove. I put together a
six brick stove with baldosa for an entrance and the back of the combustion
chamber protected with the 1/2 inch thick roofing tiles that are ubiquitous
here. This should be a simple and inexpesive solution and we can do the
same with smaller pieces of the baldosa which we know can withstand the
impact of sticks. We have also played around with some easy ways to
incorporate angle iron guards built into the metal pot supports which will
guard the entrance of the stove from poking sticks. As with a the outside
of the stove we will look into making the iside layer of the IC bricks out
of pure clay.
> >
> > 5) Easily reproducible stove parts. We have been making our test bricks
at the brickyard of Don Pedro and he is very interested in the possibliity
of setting up at least the mass production of bricks there if not the
complete production of the stove. He is already making the baldosas and in
very amiable. His kiln also is larger then most and therefore fires for
alonger time then most here which is in our favor. Besides that he makes
his bricks in large numbers (up to 10,000 a day!) using a motorized mixer
and extruder. Larry is working with him to adapt his extruder to extrude
trapazoidal six bricks in mass numbers. Even if the extruder does not work
then just using the mixer and molding the bricks by hand will speed up and
cheepen down the proccess. I in the end we decide to manufacture the bricks
somewhere else it should not be hard to set up a similiar mixer for the
bricks. Besides the trapazoidal bricks we have been working with a
fiberglass mold that Damon mad!
> e and
> > brought down. It works well and would be easy to set up in a more
mechanized manner to mass produce monolithic stoves. It also produces one
beautiful stove as far as asthetics go. As a thrid option we have made a
version of the baldosa elbow but with the lightweight material and two
inches thick. It is another option but not as sexy as either the six brick
stove or the monolithic.
> >
> > 6) Skirt for the pot and Comal. We have not spent much time on this
trip on an adjustable pot shirt but have a few designs up our sleeves which
will work fine later. The biggest problem with a skirt for the simple
rocket is that it needs a seal at the bottom for it to work. For the
cheapest stove possible this may not be easy but Larry started us out
thinking on a design and we have been working now on a intermediately priced
stove which has a comal skirt which will double as a bottom seal for a pot
skirt. Basically it is a metal or ceramic base which follows the contur of
the comal as it goes away from the exit of the elbow to give the best heat
transfer to the comal. We are looking at it extending out about 10 cm in
radius to remain stable and work well with the larger pots and comals. This
will make much more sense when I include pictures in when I get back. It
looks like it will cost somewhere around $3 in material costs (plus another
$1 or so for an adjustable !
> pot skirt)
> > plus the cost of labor. Once again a big work in progress.
> >
> > 7) Shelf and/or grate in stove entrance. Damon and Dean did some
initial testing of the rocket stove with and without a shelf and or grate
and found that there is a signifigant difference in efficencies in the
options. I took these numbers and did some further calculations and come to
the conclusion that if 30% of the people use thier shelf then the savings in
fuel will be greater (no pun intended) if a shelf is built in. I will
include these calculation in my later report but the basic idea is that the
shelf costs a small sum which equates to a free stove every 24 or so stoves
(which means one less person consuming the amount of wood in a traditional
stove) if it is not included and at 30% use the fuel savings for the two
options are about the same. A grate is even more efficient and therefore
even more desirable though there is a question in longevity with a grate for
the coals. The point is that it is worth putting effort into getting people
to use a shelf. Besi!
> des the
> > fuel savings it also reduces the production of charcoal which for our
small combustion chambers is rather important. We are looking into ways of
making the shelf or grate less tossable in the stove and reinforcing to
Ahdesa that they should work to get people using the shelf.
> >
> > 8) Finally Larry has been working on getting a design for the super
Rocket with Chiminea and all the works. This is also much a work in
progress.
> >
> > Well that is it for now folks. I will be back at Apro in a few days and
will start putting together a revised version of this with many 8 by 10
glossies with a paragraph on the back of each one.
> >
> > Hope this finds you all doing well.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > All the action. All the drama. Get NCAA hoops coverage at MSN Sports by
ESPN.
> >
> > --- To unsubscribe, send email to majormail@vrac.iastate.edu with this
as the first line in the BODY of the message: unsubscribe ethos ---
>
>
>
> ---
> To unsubscribe, send email to majormail@vrac.iastate.edu with
> this as the first line in the BODY of the message: unsubscribe ethos
> ---

From fmartirena at YAHOO.ES Sun Apr 4 11:02:55 2004
From: fmartirena at YAHOO.ES (Fernando Martirena Yahoo)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:01 2004
Subject: [ethos] pumice/cement/sodium silicate
Message-ID: <SUN.4.APR.2004.170255.0200.FMARTIRENA@YAHOO.ES>

Dear all:

It is interesting to see how the stoves list broadens to topics such as
binders... I was recently in Bern, Switzerland, in a Conference on
networking (Dare to Share) organized by the Swiss Development Cooperation
(SDC) and took the opportunity to mention the stoves experience...

Well, I have actually been working with pozzolanic materials since 1990.
Pumice is one of the materials included in the category "natural pozzolan"
and could react with lime at room temperature to form stable compounds
similar to those produced by Portland cement (calcium silicate hydrate and
aluminates). The main problem, as had already been mentioned, is that these
type of binders incorporate water in their structure and become very
unstable at temperatures over 400 Celsius, when the so called "bound water"
is released. Sodium silicate (water glass) ist also well known as a good
activator, and the nature of the reaction products varies depending on the
chemical and mineralogical composition of the pozzolan.

Professor Bob Day from the University of Calgary, with whom I am very often
in contact, has performed an interesting study in which he had proven that
certain types of pozzolan can succesfully replace clay in fired clay bricks
and yet allow burning at a lower temperature. This could be an interesting
point for future developments, as this could imply significant energy
reductions in the manufacture of fired clay bricks, a product whichis likely
more stable against fire or high temperatures in comparison with products
having calcium silicate aluminate/silicates.

If you want to know further on our work on the use of lime-pozzolan binders
as mineral admixtures in concrete, please have a look at our Webseite
www.ecosur.org

Hope this is of interest to you

saludos fraternos

fernando
____________________________
Jos? Fernando Martirena Hern?ndez (Prof. Dr. habil. Ing.)
CIDEM Facultad de Construcciones/Faculty of Constructions
Universidad Central de las Villas/Central University of Las Villas
Carretera de Camajuani km 5, Santa Clara 408000, Villa Clara. CUBA
tel/fax: ++53 42 281539 (oficina/office)
tel: ++53 42 203065 (casa/home)
e-mail: F.Martirena@enet.cu
website: www.ecosur.org

----- Original Message -----
From: "TBReed" <tombreed@COMCAST.NET>
To: <STOVES@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
Sent: Sunday, April 04, 2004 3:26 PM
Subject: Re: [STOVES] [ethos] pumice/cement/sodium silicate

> Dear Stovers all:
>
> It is my impression that pumice is a volcanic "glass", and as such may
have
> a low melting point (<600C). (Whoops, glass is technically a liquid and
so
> is a VERY viscous liquid even at room temperature. We should speak of a
> molasses softening point. It is still soft enough to flow in real time
when
> you see it coming out of volcanoes on National Geographic at a dull red
heat
> = 650C.)
>
> I hope someone will weigh in with more exact information on pumice.
>
> Sodium silicate (water glass) is wonderful stuff and sets up nicely at
room
> temperature. However, it lowers the melting point of all other ceramics.
>
> Since Portland cement incorporates water into its structure when it sets,
it
> isn't good for very high temperatures.
>
> I hope some expert out there can quantify these reservations before we get
> too enthusiastic. (Gretchen Larsen?)
>
> Upward?
>
> Tom Reed BEF
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Stuart Conway" <stuart@treeswaterpeople.org>
> To: "peter scott" <apropeter@earthlink.net>
> Cc: <ethos@vrac.iastate.edu>
> Sent: Friday, April 02, 2004 5:21 PM
> Subject: Re: [ethos] pumice/cement/sodium silicate
>
>
> > Peter,
> >
> > Congratulations on the big order from the World Food Program (WFP) which
> is a natural partner for the Rocket stove worldwide due to the type of
food
> that they cook for school snacks and lunches.
> >
> > Stuart
> >
> > peter scott wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Damon et al.
> > >
> > > My counterpart , Christoph Kellner, who works with DED/ProBEC , has
> discovered a large quantity of pumice in Lesotho and he was looking for
some
> more information about grading it as well as any thoughts on possible
> mixtures with cement and/or water glass/sodium silicate. I recognize that
> it is a bit of a long shot given the limitations of cement but still worth
> an effort. We are actually getting good feedback on the cement vermiculite
> household stoves in Durban - they are using ASTM portland whereas here in
> Mozambique, who knows whats coming out of that bag - so maybe there is
some
> hope for a very cheap stove made with cement after all.
> > >
> > > Dale and Margie have been kind enough to do the testing on the
various
> clay/ cement/ pumice /sawdust etc bricks that we are making all over
> Southern Africa.
> > >
> > > FYI World Food Program just ordered 900 institutional stoves a la the
> version of the Rocket stove that I built last year in Moz, with local and
> cheap refractory cement and vermiculite.
> > >
> > > Best
> > >
> > > Peter
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Dean Still
> > > Sent: Mar 30, 2004 8:31 AM
> > > To: ethos@vrac.iastate.edu
> > > Subject: [ethos] FW: Honduras work
> > >
> > > Mike Hatfield writes:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > In the end I believe that in the production of a marketable stove for
> Honduras we come in three intermingled stages, always works in progress,
but
> chronologically somewhat distinct. 1-- Determing the most viable form of
> the marketable stove. 2-- Setting up the production of the stove and 3--
> Marketing the stove. For the most part we have been grappling with the
> first part (probably the easiest and most fun for us stove geeks) which
can
> be devided into eight main points at this time.
> > >
> > > 1) What Material do we use for the stove xbody? Our choices are
> either find a way to produce a lightweight insulative ceramic or fall back
> on the baldosa in a bucket surrounded by ash. Damon and myself spent most
> of our time here mainly on trying to find a good local recipe for the
first
> choice (which is ideal, but it needs to be recognized that any light
weight
> brick is going to be less strong then the denser baldosa so actual in
field
> longevity will be the deciding factor). We tried some thirty different
> recipes using mainly two different clays and varying amounts of sawdust
and
> water. We just pulled them out of the kiln on 27-3-04 and they tended to
be
> on the light side and under fired. We could not get them into the 30 hour
> kiln of the brick maker Don Pedros so had to settle for renting a smaller
> kiln and burning them for only 9 hours. We got to the low end of high
> enough temps (960 C) but with insulative brick it is really important to
> have the longer burns to!
> > get the
> > > heat saturated throughout the brick. The smaller kiln also may not
have
> reached this temp throughout the entire kiln. Because of the shorter burn
> and possible lower temps the bricks shrank less (leaving them less dense)
> and not becoming quite as hard as we expect or would like. We are now
> making more bricks that should come out a bit stronger (and heavier) but
we
> feel it is the best compromise for the sake of longevity. They will get
> fired after Damon and I leave in Don Pedros kiln and Larry and Agusto will
> get them in the field for us. We feel we have a good recipe but as I said
> lifespan in field will be interesting. If you are interested in the
numbers
> the bricks we made ranged ranged in density as low as .4 g/cc to 1.1 g/cc
> (baldosas here are about 1.4). We have stated before that .8 would be a
> nice number for our insulative bricks but we have decided to try for .9 to
> give them a better chance in the field. If they survive with flying
colors
> we can lighten up la!
> > ter.
> > >
> > > 2) Find a durable but cheep container for the stove xbody. This is
> especially important for the insulative ceramic (IC) brick but a container
> will be needed for the baldosa as well. The three options we are looking
> into, all do-able and cheep, are tin bucket ($2), angle iron or platina at
> strategic points around the stove which double as pot supports ($1-2), or
a
> ferro cement mix with pot supports embeded in it ($.50) We also will look
> into making the body of the stove with a thin layer of pure clay as a
built
> in and very cheap container. We know this will work from bricks we have
> made at Apro but the feasabilty of it will be seen when we decide upon the
> production method.
> > >
> > > 3) Durable pot supports. At Apro we have been making our pot supports
> built into the ceramic of the stove and made of the same material but have
> decided here that for longevitiy it is best if they are made of metal and
go
> all the way to the ground to avoid passing the weight of the stove onto
the
> IC brick. Metal is rather cheep and a metal form for the stove which
serves
> as the pot suppot will cost as little as $.75 in material plus the labor
> costs (which will vary depening upon whether we are producing them in
house
> or not).
> > >
> > > 4) Durability against sticks inside combustion chamber. If we go with
> the baldosa combustion chamber this will not be an issue but if we use IC
> then it will probably be the weakest link in the stove. I put together a
> six brick stove with baldosa for an entrance and the back of the
combustion
> chamber protected with the 1/2 inch thick roofing tiles that are
ubiquitous
> here. This should be a simple and inexpesive solution and we can do the
> same with smaller pieces of the baldosa which we know can withstand the
> impact of sticks. We have also played around with some easy ways to
> incorporate angle iron guards built into the metal pot supports which will
> guard the entrance of the stove from poking sticks. As with a the outside
> of the stove we will look into making the iside layer of the IC bricks out
> of pure clay.
> > >
> > > 5) Easily reproducible stove parts. We have been making our test
bricks
> at the brickyard of Don Pedro and he is very interested in the possibliity
> of setting up at least the mass production of bricks there if not the
> complete production of the stove. He is already making the baldosas and
in
> very amiable. His kiln also is larger then most and therefore fires for
> alonger time then most here which is in our favor. Besides that he makes
> his bricks in large numbers (up to 10,000 a day!) using a motorized mixer
> and extruder. Larry is working with him to adapt his extruder to extrude
> trapazoidal six bricks in mass numbers. Even if the extruder does not
work
> then just using the mixer and molding the bricks by hand will speed up and
> cheepen down the proccess. I in the end we decide to manufacture the
bricks
> somewhere else it should not be hard to set up a similiar mixer for the
> bricks. Besides the trapazoidal bricks we have been working with a
> fiberglass mold that Damon mad!
> > e and
> > > brought down. It works well and would be easy to set up in a more
> mechanized manner to mass produce monolithic stoves. It also produces one
> beautiful stove as far as asthetics go. As a thrid option we have made a
> version of the baldosa elbow but with the lightweight material and two
> inches thick. It is another option but not as sexy as either the six
brick
> stove or the monolithic.
> > >
> > > 6) Skirt for the pot and Comal. We have not spent much time on this
> trip on an adjustable pot shirt but have a few designs up our sleeves
which
> will work fine later. The biggest problem with a skirt for the simple
> rocket is that it needs a seal at the bottom for it to work. For the
> cheapest stove possible this may not be easy but Larry started us out
> thinking on a design and we have been working now on a intermediately
priced
> stove which has a comal skirt which will double as a bottom seal for a pot
> skirt. Basically it is a metal or ceramic base which follows the contur
of
> the comal as it goes away from the exit of the elbow to give the best heat
> transfer to the comal. We are looking at it extending out about 10 cm in
> radius to remain stable and work well with the larger pots and comals.
This
> will make much more sense when I include pictures in when I get back. It
> looks like it will cost somewhere around $3 in material costs (plus
another
> $1 or so for an adjustable !
> > pot skirt)
> > > plus the cost of labor. Once again a big work in progress.
> > >
> > > 7) Shelf and/or grate in stove entrance. Damon and Dean did some
> initial testing of the rocket stove with and without a shelf and or grate
> and found that there is a signifigant difference in efficencies in the
> options. I took these numbers and did some further calculations and come
to
> the conclusion that if 30% of the people use thier shelf then the savings
in
> fuel will be greater (no pun intended) if a shelf is built in. I will
> include these calculation in my later report but the basic idea is that
the
> shelf costs a small sum which equates to a free stove every 24 or so
stoves
> (which means one less person consuming the amount of wood in a traditional
> stove) if it is not included and at 30% use the fuel savings for the two
> options are about the same. A grate is even more efficient and therefore
> even more desirable though there is a question in longevity with a grate
for
> the coals. The point is that it is worth putting effort into getting
people
> to use a shelf. Besi!
> > des the
> > > fuel savings it also reduces the production of charcoal which for our
> small combustion chambers is rather important. We are looking into ways
of
> making the shelf or grate less tossable in the stove and reinforcing to
> Ahdesa that they should work to get people using the shelf.
> > >
> > > 8) Finally Larry has been working on getting a design for the super
> Rocket with Chiminea and all the works. This is also much a work in
> progress.
> > >
> > > Well that is it for now folks. I will be back at Apro in a few days
and
> will start putting together a revised version of this with many 8 by 10
> glossies with a paragraph on the back of each one.
> > >
> > > Hope this finds you all doing well.
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > All the action. All the drama. Get NCAA hoops coverage at MSN Sports
by
> ESPN.
> > >
> > > --- To unsubscribe, send email to majormail@vrac.iastate.edu with this
> as the first line in the BODY of the message: unsubscribe ethos ---
> >
> >
> >
> > ---
> > To unsubscribe, send email to majormail@vrac.iastate.edu with
> > this as the first line in the BODY of the message: unsubscribe ethos
> > ---
>

From andrew.heggie at DTN.NTL.COM Sun Apr 4 11:56:04 2004
From: andrew.heggie at DTN.NTL.COM (Andrew Heggie)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:01 2004
Subject: Maintaining the ignition of hot gases
In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20040402111924.02452100@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.4.APR.2004.165604.0100.>

On Fri, 2 Apr 2004 11:21:30 -0600, Paul S. Anderson wrote:

>At 01:19 PM 4/2/04 +0100, Andrew Heggie wrote:
>>(snip)
>>It leads me to speculate on the possibility of recycling catalytic
>>exhaust parts into a stove combustion chamber.
>
>Very interesting comment. Can you please elaborate?

Dan was right, I meant to see if the catalysts used in cars had useful
life after the car was scrapped. I believe they are in the form of
"beans" in the exhaust system. If their action is similar with
unburned hydrocarbons and pics for wood stoves then they might reduce
the threshold temperature at which difficult pics will combine with
air. I worry that they only work effectively under near stoichiometric
conditions.

AJH

From ken at BASTERFIELD.COM Sun Apr 4 13:44:45 2004
From: ken at BASTERFIELD.COM (Ken Basterfield)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:01 2004
Subject: Maintaining the ignition of hot gases
In-Reply-To: <qvb07016s09n01phds5vnlacdu53vj807j@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.4.APR.2004.184445.0100.KEN@BASTERFIELD.COM>

Nope,
The catalyst in a car is in the form of a solid ceramic matrix with
myriad perforations running through which are coated with the catalyst
materials. Look in at your local car exhaust fitters, they usually have
one that has been stripped of it's case for the customers to see.

If the catalyst rattles like a can of beans, it is because it is damaged
and broken up.
Sincerely
Ken

-----Original Message-----
From: The Stoves Discussion List [mailto:STOVES@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG] On
Behalf Of Andrew Heggie
Sent: 04 April 2004 16:56
To: STOVES@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG
Subject: Re: [STOVES] Maintaining the ignition of hot gases

On Fri, 2 Apr 2004 11:21:30 -0600, Paul S. Anderson wrote:

AJH

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From crispin at NEWDAWN.SZ Sun Apr 4 14:15:28 2004
From: crispin at NEWDAWN.SZ (Crispin Pemberton-Pigott)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:01 2004
Subject: pumice/cement/sodium silicate
In-Reply-To: <005201c41a48$5f3cbcc0$6401a8c0@TOM>
Message-ID: <SUN.4.APR.2004.201528.0200.>

Dear Tom

>(Whoops, glass is technically a liquid...

I was raised to think that and then later on people changed their minds.
Have you? The sound or breaking glass is the sonic boom created by the
glass fracturing its crystal structure faster than the speed of sound.
That is, the speed of fracture is faster that 300 metres per second.

Apparently the new interpertation of glass' structure is that as it
passes through the 525 degree region (or so) it crystalizes.

Is this true?

My father told me that glass rods hung across wall hooks for 100 years
deform under their own weight.

Is that true?

Regards
Crispin

From hseaver at CYBERSHAMANIX.COM Sun Apr 4 15:45:51 2004
From: hseaver at CYBERSHAMANIX.COM (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:01 2004
Subject: pumice/cement/sodium silicate
In-Reply-To: <000101c41a70$d5dbfd00$e49dfea9@home>
Message-ID: <SUN.4.APR.2004.144551.0500.HSEAVER@CYBERSHAMANIX.COM>

On Sun, Apr 04, 2004 at 08:15:28PM +0200, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott wrote:
> Dear Tom
>
> >(Whoops, glass is technically a liquid...
>
> I was raised to think that and then later on people changed their minds.
> Have you? The sound or breaking glass is the sonic boom created by the
> glass fracturing its crystal structure faster than the speed of sound.
> That is, the speed of fracture is faster that 300 metres per second.
>
> Apparently the new interpertation of glass' structure is that as it
> passes through the 525 degree region (or so) it crystalizes.
>
> Is this true?
>
> My father told me that glass rods hung across wall hooks for 100 years
> deform under their own weight.
>
> Is that true?
>

It sure is, and you can just look at the window glass in any old house and
see it, the glass is wavy and distorted. Should be measurably thicker at the
bottom too. Also, old glass is much harder to cut than new glass -- I've always
saved old window glass to make repairs on broken window and you really get a lot
of pieces that break wrong with the old glass, even with new glass cutters, and
it's the irregular "grain" that does it. New glass usually breaks right every
time.

> Regards
> Crispin

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

From andrew.heggie at DTN.NTL.COM Sun Apr 4 15:22:42 2004
From: andrew.heggie at DTN.NTL.COM (Andrew Heggie)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:01 2004
Subject: Maintaining the ignition of hot gases
In-Reply-To: <000001c41a6c$848734a0$6802a8c0@KenThinkPad>
Message-ID: <SUN.4.APR.2004.202242.0100.>

On Sun, 4 Apr 2004 18:44:45 +0100, Ken Basterfield wrote:

>Nope,
>The catalyst in a car is in the form of a solid ceramic matrix with
>myriad perforations running through which are coated with the catalyst
>materials.

Shame, not much scope for fitting this into a stove then, as I guess
all the burning gases would need to pass through it and there wouldn't
be enough contact if it were part of the wall of the combustion
chamber.

AJH

From crispin at NEWDAWN.SZ Sun Apr 4 16:43:30 2004
From: crispin at NEWDAWN.SZ (Crispin Pemberton-Pigott)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:02 2004
Subject: pumice/cement/sodium silicate
Message-ID: <SUN.4.APR.2004.224330.0200.>

Dear Harmon

> It sure is, and you can just look at the window glass in any old
house and see it, the glass is wavy and distorted.

Now it happens that I was raised in a 150 year old house and the windows
were of the type that compressed and elongated cars as they drove by.

The glass was made by the 'spinning' method in which liquid glass was
poured onto the centre of a spinning round plate. It was bubbly and
varyied in thickness.

>Should be measurably thicker at the bottom too.

When the sheets were cut and used, they put the thick end on the bottom.

>Also, old glass is much harder to cut than new glass

It was cooled irregularly and that which shattered was recycled, and
that which shattered not was sold. Some of it was accidentally hardened
(tempered).

I have met one person who claimed to have seen a glass rod that was put
over two pegs for 80 years or so that apparently bent under its own
weight. There are a lot of old glass objects that stand as mute
testimony to the 'flow' thing not being true.

I am still thinking about it.

Regards
Crispin

From andrew.heggie at DTN.NTL.COM Sun Apr 4 17:10:44 2004
From: andrew.heggie at DTN.NTL.COM (Andrew Heggie)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:02 2004
Subject: pumice/cement/sodium silicate
In-Reply-To: <000001c41a85$85205e00$e49dfea9@home>
Message-ID: <SUN.4.APR.2004.221044.0100.>

On Sun, 4 Apr 2004 22:43:30 +0200, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott wrote:

>Dear Harmon
>
>> It sure is, and you can just look at the window glass in any old
>house and see it, the glass is wavy and distorted.
>
>Now it happens that I was raised in a 150 year old house and the windows
>were of the type that compressed and elongated cars as they drove by.
>
>The glass was made by the 'spinning' method in which liquid glass was
>poured onto the centre of a spinning round plate. It was bubbly and
>varyied in thickness.

I think you are referring to crown glass, the glass is drawn as a blob
on a pole that is spun. The centrifuge draws it out into a thin disc.
>
>>Should be measurably thicker at the bottom too.

Yes, the glass is cut from the disc, that part nearer the centre is
thicker.

If you were glazing a pane with a piece of glass which way up would
you put it, thin side down or up?
>
>When the sheets were cut and used, they put the thick end on the bottom.

Perzactly
>
>>Also, old glass is much harder to cut than new glass
>
>It was cooled irregularly and that which shattered was recycled, and
>that which shattered not was sold. Some of it was accidentally hardened
>(tempered).
>
>I have met one person who claimed to have seen a glass rod that was put
>over two pegs for 80 years or so that apparently bent under its own
>weight. There are a lot of old glass objects that stand as mute
>testimony to the 'flow' thing not being true.
>
>I am still thinking about it.

I am with you, I think the view that glass is a supercooled liquid,
like tar, is out of favour. I think it crystalises and that defects in
the crystalline structure develop with age, which is why new glass
cuts predictably but old has a pre disposition to crack as it wants
to.

However I still cannot explain why the glass in cross channel ferries
seems to be bent inwards, mind this is from observations over thirty
years ago.

AJH

From hseaver at CYBERSHAMANIX.COM Sun Apr 4 17:19:05 2004
From: hseaver at CYBERSHAMANIX.COM (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:02 2004
Subject: pumice/cement/sodium silicate
In-Reply-To: <1vt070p133lgld8o71r21di50scdb9mh37@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.4.APR.2004.161905.0500.HSEAVER@CYBERSHAMANIX.COM>

So when did they start making rolled glass?

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

From crispin at NEWDAWN.SZ Sun Apr 4 17:53:46 2004
From: crispin at NEWDAWN.SZ (Crispin Pemberton-Pigott)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:02 2004
Subject: pumice/cement/sodium silicate
Message-ID: <SUN.4.APR.2004.235346.0200.>

Dear Harmon

>So when did they start making rolled glass?

It isn't. It is floated on a bath of molten lead or other low
temperature metal, isn't it? Continuous pounr on and continuous
offtake. That is why it is called 'float glass'. Perfectly flat,
available in infinite lengths.

The great inventor Garth Foxcroft showed my in his back yard a setup for
making foamed glass (which can be nailed like plywood) that did not
involve flotation, but rather downards extrusion. It was turned through
90 degrees and then cooled horizontally before it was cut with a saw.
He claimed to have perfected foamed glass for the first time.

You could hold a cutting torch on one side and not feel it on the other
side 1 inch away.

It was cheap too. He wanted to sell it as last-forever roofing. It can
be cut, glued and nailed. The bubbles are about 2mm in diameter and it
looks like foam rubber but is rigid and slightly lumpy.

Great for pouring into stoves bodies!

Regards
Crispin

From kchisholm at CA.INTER.NET Sun Apr 4 18:43:19 2004
From: kchisholm at CA.INTER.NET (Kevin Chisholm)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:02 2004
Subject: Maintaining the ignition of hot gases
Message-ID: <SUN.4.APR.2004.194319.0300.KCHISHOLM@CA.INTER.NET>

Dear Andrew

The catalytic converters I have taken apart were like a ceramic honeycomb
with the massages about 2mm or less in diameter. There would be a very
significant pressure drop across these blocks of "catalyst". Additionally,
they would be an excellent lamellar separator for capturing particulate
matter. In other words, they would plog real quick. :-)

Designing a stove with a catalytic converter is an admission of failure, and
a confirmation of a basically poor design. The best way to solve a problem
is to eliminate it in the first place, that is, by coming up with a good
combustion system design..

Kindest regards,

Kevin Chisholm

----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrew Heggie" <andrew.heggie@DTN.NTL.COM>
To: <STOVES@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
Sent: Sunday, April 04, 2004 12:56 PM
Subject: Re: [STOVES] Maintaining the ignition of hot gases

> On Fri, 2 Apr 2004 11:21:30 -0600, Paul S. Anderson wrote:
>
> >At 01:19 PM 4/2/04 +0100, Andrew Heggie wrote:
> >>(snip)
> >>It leads me to speculate on the possibility of recycling catalytic
> >>exhaust parts into a stove combustion chamber.
> >
> >Very interesting comment. Can you please elaborate?
>
> Dan was right, I meant to see if the catalysts used in cars had useful
> life after the car was scrapped. I believe they are in the form of
> "beans" in the exhaust system. If their action is similar with
> unburned hydrocarbons and pics for wood stoves then they might reduce
> the threshold temperature at which difficult pics will combine with
> air. I worry that they only work effectively under near stoichiometric
> conditions.
>
> AJH

From hseaver at CYBERSHAMANIX.COM Sun Apr 4 20:01:39 2004
From: hseaver at CYBERSHAMANIX.COM (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:02 2004
Subject: pumice/cement/sodium silicate
In-Reply-To: <20040404211905.GB1575@cybershamanix.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.4.APR.2004.190139.0500.HSEAVER@CYBERSHAMANIX.COM>

On Sun, Apr 04, 2004 at 04:19:05PM -0500, Harmon Seaver wrote:
> So when did they start making rolled glass?

Hmm, I looked it up, and "drawn" or "rolled" sheet glass was first produced
in the early 20th century. So, the house I live in, built in 1913, would most
certainly have used this type. And also, it doesn't have any of the bubbles in
it that is characteristic of the older processes, like cylinder or crown (both
of which are blown first and are handmade), but it certainly has
distortions. The site I found says "Recognisable by some movement in the glass
in the vertical plane, but of consistent thickness and flatness."

http://www.buildingconservation.com/articles/glazing/glazing.htm

New stuff, since the '50s, is float glass, "made by floating molten glass over
a bed of liquid tin."
So maybe the stuff doesn't flow with age. Damn, another "fact" I've known all
my life shattered just like that. The house on our family farm, which was
homesteaded here in Wisconsin in 1832, was built around 1850 (they lived in a
much smaller cabin for awhile) and had windows that were quite bubbly and weird,
and my dad (an engineer, so of course he *knew*) explained that as proof that
glass was a liquid.

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

From rstanley at LEGACYFOUND.ORG Sun Apr 4 18:34:08 2004
From: rstanley at LEGACYFOUND.ORG (richard stanley)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:02 2004
Subject: pumice/cement/sodium silicate
In-Reply-To: <000001c41a85$85205e00$e49dfea9@home>
Message-ID: <MON.5.APR.2004.003408.0200.RSTANLEY@LEGACYFOUND.ORG>

Crispin,
The concept s not unique to glass but occurs in most all hard rock over
time. It is called "Reidity"(spel) if my memories of structural geology
serve me correctly.

Richard

Crispin Pemberton-Pigott wrote:

>Dear Harmon
>
>
>
>> It sure is, and you can just look at the window glass in any old
>>
>>
>house and see it, the glass is wavy and distorted.
>
>Now it happens that I was raised in a 150 year old house and the windows
>were of the type that compressed and elongated cars as they drove by.
>
>The glass was made by the 'spinning' method in which liquid glass was
>poured onto the centre of a spinning round plate. It was bubbly and
>varyied in thickness.
>
>
>
>>Should be measurably thicker at the bottom too.
>>
>>
>
>When the sheets were cut and used, they put the thick end on the bottom.
>
>
>
>>Also, old glass is much harder to cut than new glass
>>
>>
>
>It was cooled irregularly and that which shattered was recycled, and
>that which shattered not was sold. Some of it was accidentally hardened
>(tempered).
>
>I have met one person who claimed to have seen a glass rod that was put
>over two pegs for 80 years or so that apparently bent under its own
>weight. There are a lot of old glass objects that stand as mute
>testimony to the 'flow' thing not being true.
>
>I am still thinking about it.
>
>Regards
>Crispin
>
>
>
>
>

From crispin at NEWDAWN.SZ Mon Apr 5 16:20:26 2004
From: crispin at NEWDAWN.SZ (Crispin Pemberton-Pigott)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:02 2004
Subject: pumice/cement/sodium silicate
Message-ID: <MON.5.APR.2004.222026.0200.>

Dear Stovers

I would like you to note that Richard Stanley did NOT start out life as
a briquette maker:

>The concept is not unique to glass but occurs in most all
>hard rock over time. It is called "Reidity"(spel) if my
>memories of structural geology serve me correctly.

Perhaps it is true that almost no one working on stoves started out in
that field!

Regards
Crispin

Dear Art

>What did your friend use as a foaming agent for the
>glass to form the bubbles so uniformly?

I didn't ask, but it will be terribly clever, knowing Garth. He
invented, among many things, the air-to-air missile, the zinc-air
battery and photo-setting polymers.

Not bad for an orphan who never seems to have gone to school. He is
about 90 and lives a few km from me in the Malkerns Valley. I will ask
him about the foaming agent. He said a lot of people have failed to
make this foaming business work properly. He is making a hydrogen
engine at the moment and says BMW is way off track in their approach to
the technlogy. I am inclined to believe it!

He is the only guy I know who has a personal backyard 20 Kw induction
furnace (sometimes you need a casting).

Regards
Crispin

From psanders at ILSTU.EDU Mon Apr 5 23:51:29 2004
From: psanders at ILSTU.EDU (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:02 2004
Subject: [ethos] pumice/cement/sodium silicate
In-Reply-To: <005201c41a48$5f3cbcc0$6401a8c0@TOM>
Message-ID: <MON.5.APR.2004.225129.0500.PSANDERS@ILSTU.EDU>

At 07:26 AM 4/4/04 -0600, TBReed wrote:
>Dear Stovers all:
>
>It is my impression that pumice is a volcanic "glass", and as such may have
>a low melting point (<600C).

Tom and all,

The main "volcanic glass" is obsidian, an igneous rock. Black, with
concave cleavages that give extremely sharp edges such as used in the
obsidian knives of the Aztecs for their human sacrifices.

I think of pumice as a solidified foam. If that is actually a "glass",
then it might be akin to the foam glass that someone mentioned that could
be drilled and cut. However, pumice is used to rub the skin, and the
result is gritty, not like fine pieces of glass from fiberglass that you
certainly would not want to rub on your skin!!

Paul

From tombreed at COMCAST.NET Tue Apr 6 09:13:14 2004
From: tombreed at COMCAST.NET (TBReed)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:02 2004
Subject: Obsidian, flint and us
Message-ID: <TUE.6.APR.2004.071314.0600.TOMBREED@COMCAST.NET>

Dear Paul and Aul:

I think we are talking about the same chemical composition. Obsidian is
molten rock without gas to make bubbles; pumice comes from bubbled molten
rock.

The obsidian (and most glass) has a chonchoidal (sharp edged) fracture. It
is atomically sharp, sharper than any razor. I have heard that some
surgeons use it occasionally.

I believe flint has somewhat similar properties, but is formed in a very
different manner. Without flint Humans might never have developed.

I recently read through "Clan of the Cave Bear" and the four subsequent
novels of Jean Auel's evocation of the development of Cro-Magnon humans
30,000 years ago. It is rich with plausible speculation about our early
days and inventions. I learned a lot about fire making and usage.

Our evolution is truly miraculous and could be unique in the universe - or
not.

OUr understanding increases apace.

Yours truly, TOM REED BEF

----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul S. Anderson" <psanders@ILSTU.EDU>
To: <STOVES@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 9:51 PM
Subject: Re: [STOVES] [ethos] pumice/cement/sodium silicate

> At 07:26 AM 4/4/04 -0600, TBReed wrote:
> >Dear Stovers all:
> >
> >It is my impression that pumice is a volcanic "glass", and as such may
have
> >a low melting point (<600C).
>
> Tom and all,
>
> The main "volcanic glass" is obsidian, an igneous rock. Black, with
> concave cleavages that give extremely sharp edges such as used in the
> obsidian knives of the Aztecs for their human sacrifices.
>
> I think of pumice as a solidified foam. If that is actually a "glass",
> then it might be akin to the foam glass that someone mentioned that could
> be drilled and cut. However, pumice is used to rub the skin, and the
> result is gritty, not like fine pieces of glass from fiberglass that you
> certainly would not want to rub on your skin!!
>
> Paul
>
>
>
> Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
> Rotary University Teacher Grantee to Mozambique >10 mo of 2001-2003
> Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
> Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
> E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders

From fmartirena_add at YAHOO.ES Wed Apr 7 13:34:30 2004
From: fmartirena_add at YAHOO.ES (Fernando Martirena)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:02 2004
Subject: Fw: [GASL] Biomass Cars
Message-ID: <WED.7.APR.2004.193430.0200.FMARTIRENAADD@YAHOO.ES>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Fernando Martirena Yahoo" <fmartirena@yahoo.es>
To: "TBReed" <tombreed@COMCAST.NET>; <GASIFICATION@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2004 7:17 PM
Subject: Re: [GASL] Biomass Cars

> Back at the beginning of the 1990s most of the buses and trucks in Cuba
ran
> on biomass... they used the same technology of those of WWII... charcoal
> was the main fuel they used, and it was further gasified... they were
> abandoned soon after the benzin was made available...
>
> regards, fernando
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "TBReed" <tombreed@COMCAST.NET>
> To: <GASIFICATION@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2004 5:50 PM
> Subject: [GASL] Biomass Cars
>
>
> > Dear Lewis and all:
> >
> > Lewis Smith is correct that there is much disagreement as to when world
> oil
> > production will peak and start to decline. Even after we pass the peak
it
> > will take a few years to recognize it as a true supply peak, rather than
> > political adjustment etc.
> >
> > However, whether it occurs in 2010 or 2020, there is no doubt that it
will
> > greatly affect the future and very existence of civilization. Among
other
> > things, as the peak is recognized, major wars to grab the remaining oil
> > supplies could consume a great deal of oil - and money - and lives - and
> > civilization.
> >
> > So, the sooner we can demonstrate "life without oil" the better. We do
> have
> > a mini test case. During WWII the civilian population had NO oil - all
> went
> > to the military. Over a million vehicles were operated on "woodgas"
> > (including many in the military when not on the front lines). Modern
> cities
> > require supplies of food and fuel and can't function without them.
> Without
> > woodgas vehicles, the war might have ended in 1 year when the soldiers
> > discovered everyone dead at home.
> >
> > ~~~~~~~
> > WWII gasifier conversion cars were developed and manufactured under
> wartime
> > conditions and were discarded as soon as gasoline became available
again.
> I
> > am considering using modern technology to develop "turnkey, tarfree"
cars
> > running on wood pellets, a uniform fuel. (We have already developed
much
> of
> > this technology for generating electric power in the 20-50 kW range at
> > Community Power, see www.gocpc.com If anyone is interested in the post
> oil
> > future, let me know.
> >
> > Yours truly,
> >
> > Thomas Reed The Biomass Energy Foundation
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Lewis L. Smith" <MMBTUPR@AOL.COM>
> > To: <BIOENERGY@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
> > Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 9:08 PM
> > Subject: [BIOENERGY] Promotion of bioenergy
> >
> >
> > > to Bioenergy List from Lewis L. Smith
> > >
> > > I have recently argued against advancing the cause of renewables
by
> > > claiming that the peak of world crude-oil capacity is drawing nigh.
The
> > matter is
> > > highly debatable, the criteria are not too exact and the numbers are
> even
> > less
> > > so. In fact, based on recent revelations, one suspects that certain
oil
> > > companies and countries may have systematically lied about their
> reserves
> > and well
> > > capacities, mostly overstating but some understating. Moreover, there
is
> > the
> > > unbridgeable conceptual difference between the Russian definition of
> > reserves
> > > and those used in most of the world.
> > >
> > > To give you an idea of the complexities and uncertainties of this
> > issue,
> > > just read the following :
> > >
> > > Maureen Lorenzetti [DC editor] > "Saudis refute claims of
> > oil-field
> > > production declines", "Oil & Gas Journal", Mar. 8, 2004, pp. 24-25.
> > >
> > > Stanley Reed & Stephanie Anderson > "A Saudi oil shortage
?",
> > > "Business Week", Apr. 5, 2004, pp. 62-64.
> > >
> > > Cordially.
> > >
> > > End.
>

From tmiles at TRMILES.COM Sat Apr 10 17:29:24 2004
From: tmiles at TRMILES.COM (Tom Miles)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:02 2004
Subject: KK NDG Natural Draft Gasifier
Message-ID: <SAT.10.APR.2004.142924.0700.TMILES@TRMILES.COM>

Krisha Kumar's report on the development of his (KK NDG) natural draft gasifier is now linked to the Stoves page at http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/

Tom Miles

From psanders at ILSTU.EDU Wed Apr 14 14:10:54 2004
From: psanders at ILSTU.EDU (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:02 2004
Subject: Toxic metal in "tincanium" stoves??
Message-ID: <WED.14.APR.2004.131054.0500.PSANDERS@ILSTU.EDU>

Stovers,

Raw steel
Galvanized steel
"tin can" steel
Painted steel (what kinds of paints are acceptable if use in a stove?)

When a simple stove (heat generation, NOT the pots for cooking) is made
with the above metals, what toxicity problems could arise?

The galvanized coating (zinc, right?) will melt and run down and can be
made into a white powder.

Tin cans and new "paint cans" are coated with tin, right?

Your comments would be greatly appreciated before some of us poison
ourselves making stoves.

From crispin at NEWDAWN.SZ Wed Apr 14 15:58:44 2004
From: crispin at NEWDAWN.SZ (Crispin and Margaret Pemberton-Pigott)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:02 2004
Subject: Toxic metal in "tincanium" stoves??
Message-ID: <WED.14.APR.2004.155844.0400.CRISPIN@NEWDAWN.SZ>

Dear Paul

Howzit?

I am in Ontario again so I have time to fill in a few keystrokes.

Zinc: very good for you. People with TB used to try to get work in a
galvanizing plant as it would keep their infection under control.

Antibiotic paste/creme is make with zinc.

Zinc-oxide: nearly inert.

Tin: Now I am not sure at all. Perhaps there are toxicity tests listing it.
I will ask my son Nigel.

I can tell you that paint cans and buckets that are used to contain
chemicals and food and ordinary things (not pool chlorine) are made from
steel coated with tin. The cans we have made are formed from tin coated
sheets and tin is the reason the can costs so much. I would prefer to get a
coated (painted) tin without tin on the steel, but the company refuses to
use the plain material.

As far as I know from my contact with paint can companies, they all have tin
on the steel sheeting. It is _very_ thin.

All things considered the materials are pretty innocuous. Steel sheet that
is heated to a high temperature in a biomass flame tends to harden by
picking up carbon. To do that the temp reaches about 900 C then the carbon,
if available in the gas, will penetrate the steel.

Heated to a high temperature in the absence of flames, the steel will lose
carbon which burns to CO2.

In both cases it will slowly lose iron as iron-oxide which is pretty safe
stuff too.

I have a health professional analyse the health dangers of the effluent of
the plasma cutter and he concluded that the heavy iron particles fall out of
the air very rapidly ands pose no health threat at all.

The zinc and tin will be in the same category as far as I understand it.

In the dangerous category is the coloured ink on plastic bags which contains
cadmium. Don't burn them.

What about chrome and nickel vaporised from the surface of high temperature
stainless steel? Surely the amounts are mircoscopic?

Regards
Crispin

From pverhaart at OPTUSNET.COM.AU Thu Apr 15 01:38:58 2004
From: pverhaart at OPTUSNET.COM.AU (Peter Verhaart)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:02 2004
Subject: Toxic metal in "tincanium" stoves??
In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20040414130425.024741b0@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.15.APR.2004.153858.1000.PVERHAART@OPTUSNET.COM.AU>

At 13:10 14/04/2004 -0500, you wrote:
>Snip
>The galvanized coating (zinc, right?) will melt and run down and can be
>made into a white powder.

Usually the coating is not thick enough to run down, it evaporates, the
vapour burns to a white oxide.

>Tin cans and new "paint cans" are coated with tin, right?

It probably depends on the expected contents. I think tin is from way back,
now, in some cases it might be cadmium treated with potassium dichromate
solution. Possibly blank steel is treated with phosphoric acid for some
applications like oil containers.
That is all I know.

Peter Verhaart

From erin at TRMILES.COM Thu Apr 15 08:12:51 2004
From: erin at TRMILES.COM (Erin R.)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:02 2004
Subject: Gradual Stoves Site Changes
In-Reply-To: <002001c41f42$ea01b6e0$0db4ab43@OFFICE3>
Message-ID: <THU.15.APR.2004.051251.0700.ERIN@TRMILES.COM>

Hi Stoves Discussion Group Members,

I'm pretty good with HTML, and other web site technologies, so my dad,
Tom Miles, has asked me to help him update the Stoves Discussion Group
site. There is a lot of great information there, but currently it's a
little disorganized. So, I'm going to be making a lot of little changes
to the site (and maybe a few big ones) that I hope will help
navigation.

Please let me know, either by replying to this message, or at
erin@trmiles.com, if I move something and you can't find it, or make
some ghastly change that you can't believe I just did. Also let me know
if there are improvements that you would like to see, or suggestions
you can make that you think will help.

Thanks in advance,
Erin R.

From psanders at ILSTU.EDU Thu Apr 15 11:31:55 2004
From: psanders at ILSTU.EDU (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:02 2004
Subject: Gradual Stoves Site Changes
In-Reply-To: <37A9F5E0-8ED6-11D8-AD95-00306572E918@trmiles.com>
Message-ID: <THU.15.APR.2004.103155.0500.PSANDERS@ILSTU.EDU>

Erin,

Thanks for taking on this highly important task.

We Stovers would like to get to know you a little better. Please introduce
yourself to the Stoves list serve. Your dad has not told us nearly enough
about you. Because I am older than your dad, I can call you one of the
"whiz kids" that have grown up with HTML. Your efforts are appreciated.

At the site, I noticed that the "list of people" (each with hot links) is
no longer there, but now it is a list of stove types and stove names. I
would like to see the "people" list brought back, if possible, but also
keep the new list by stove names and types. Any comments by other Stovers??

Paul Anderson

At 05:12 AM 4/15/04 -0700, Erin R. wrote:
>Hi Stoves Discussion Group Members,
>
>I'm pretty good with HTML, and other web site technologies, so my dad,
>Tom Miles, has asked me to help him update the Stoves Discussion Group
>site. There is a lot of great information there, but currently it's a
>little disorganized. So, I'm going to be making a lot of little changes
>to the site (and maybe a few big ones) that I hope will help
>navigation.
>
>Please let me know, either by replying to this message, or at
>erin@trmiles.com, if I move something and you can't find it, or make
>some ghastly change that you can't believe I just did. Also let me know
>if there are improvements that you would like to see, or suggestions
>you can make that you think will help.
>
>Thanks in advance,
>Erin R.

From erin at TRMILES.COM Thu Apr 15 16:55:50 2004
From: erin at TRMILES.COM (Erin R.)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:02 2004
Subject: Gradual Stoves Site Changes
In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20040415102623.02474c50@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.15.APR.2004.135550.0700.ERIN@TRMILES.COM>

Hi Paul,

I know what you are talking about, there used to be information listed
by contributors. I think that pulled off the main page and put on a
sub-page. I'll find it and make sure there is a link to that
information at the top of the stoves list home page. :-)

- Erin R.

On Apr 15, 2004, at 8:31 AM, Paul S. Anderson wrote:
>
> At the site, I noticed that the "list of people" (each with hot links)
> is no longer there, but now it is a list of stove types and stove
> names. I would like to see the "people" list brought back, if
> possible, but also keep the new list by stove names and types. Any
> comments by other Stovers??
>
> Paul Anderson

From andrew.heggie at DTN.NTL.COM Sat Apr 17 16:58:37 2004
From: andrew.heggie at DTN.NTL.COM (Andrew Heggie)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:02 2004
Subject: Gradual Stoves Site Changes
In-Reply-To: <37A9F5E0-8ED6-11D8-AD95-00306572E918@trmiles.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.17.APR.2004.215837.0100.>

On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 05:12:51 -0700, Erin R. wrote:

>Hi Stoves Discussion Group Members,
>
>I'm pretty good with HTML, and other web site technologies, so my dad,
>Tom Miles, has asked me to help him update the Stoves Discussion Group
>site. There is a lot of great information there, but currently it's a
>little disorganized. So, I'm going to be making a lot of little changes
>to the site (and maybe a few big ones) that I hope will help
>navigation.

Well volunteered Erin, good luck.

If my pages on the aspirator are still up they should come off now as
they were only to illustrate a discussion at the time.

AJH

From psanders at ILSTU.EDU Thu Apr 22 22:34:04 2004
From: psanders at ILSTU.EDU (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:02 2004
Subject: Opportunity for Stoves projects Fwd: WISIONS - application
deadline extended to June 1st
Message-ID: <THU.22.APR.2004.213404.0500.PSANDERS@ILSTU.EDU>

Stovers,

Some of us will find this very interesting and should apply.

Paul

>Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 13:57:20 +0200
>From: WISIONS INFO <info@wisions.net>
>Subject: WISIONS - application deadline extended to June 1st
>Bcc:
>X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.612)
>X-Provags-ID: kundenserver.de abuse@kundenserver.de
> auth:3ae9b08ffa5313c0a7fe5826b31d91f0
>
>***Sorry for Cross-postings****
>
>Dear colleague,
>
>the WISIONS team from the Wuppertal Institute for Climate, Environment and
>Energy would like to inform you about the extension of the application
>deadline for applying projects (SEPS and PREP) which has been extended to
>June 1st.
>
>Selected renewable energy and energy efficiency project ideas from around
>the world will be supported by the SEPS part of WISIONS, the Sustainable
>Energy Project Support.
>The Promotion of Resource Efficiency Projects (PREP) aims at spreading
>knowledge of good-practice projects in the field of resource efficiency.
>The current topic is "resource efficiency in the construction sector".
>
>Please visit the website <http://www.wisions.net>http://www.wisions.net
>
>To remind you about WISIONS objectives, benefits and activities, you find
>the basic information about WISIONS below:
>
>WISIONS is a new initiative of the Wuppertal Institute for Climate,
>Environment and Energy, carried out with the support of the Swiss-based
>foundation ProEvolution to foster practical sustainable energy and
>resource efficiency projects.
>
>SEPS, the Sustainable Energy Project Support, aims at identifying
>promising project ideas on a world-wide scale and seeks to overcome the
>existing barriers by providing technical and other support. The projects
>have to be in a stage prior to implementation and will be judged according
>to a set of ambitious criteria and the quality of a
>consistent implementation strategy.
>
>PREP, the Promotion of Resource Efficiency Projects, has the key
>objectives of publishing and promoting good practice in energy and
>resource efficiency. People around the world are asked to present their
>"good practice examples". The topic and the target groups thus will vary
>regularly with the objective of addressing a wide range of issues and
>stake-holders. Right now the first topic "resource-efficiency in the
>construction" sector with its main emphasis on the efficient use of energy
>and renewables is starting.
>
>The most convincing projects will be promoted to multipliers, political
>decision-makers, scientists and activists. By doing this, they will get
>the publicity they deserve and provide certain ideas worldwide to improve
>the efficient use of resources.
>
>Aware of your knowledge and experience in renewable energy, energy or
>resource efficiency, your contacts could be very helpful in bringing new
>ideas into action. So let all those know of WISIONS who may exactly have
>what we look for: a promising project concept in renewable energy or
>energy efficiency and good practice examples that could sample for other
>projects and regions.
>
>If you are positive about our project we would like to ask you to spread
>the initiative's idea via forwarding this e-mail to appropriatepersons or
>target groups, putting it on your homepages or even make some publicity in
>your newsletter.
>
>Thank you very much for your backing.
>
>We are looking forward to here from you.
>
>Carmen Dienst
>on behalf of the WISIONS-Team
>___________________________________________
>WISIONS Info
>Email: info@wisions.net
>Internet: www.wisions.net
>Fax: +49 - (0)202 - 2492-198
>Phone: +49 - (0)202 - 2492 - 252
>
>Wuppertal Institute for Climate, Environment and Energy
>Doeppersberg 19
>D-42103 Wuppertal
>Postbox: 100480
>D-42004 Wuppertal
>
>
></blockquote></x-html>

From crispin at NEWDAWN.SZ Fri Apr 23 12:16:43 2004
From: crispin at NEWDAWN.SZ (Crispin and Margaret Pemberton-Pigott)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:02 2004
Subject: Alternative ceramics was Re: UNfired bricks (on [ethos]
list serve
Message-ID: <FRI.23.APR.2004.121643.0400.CRISPIN@NEWDAWN.SZ>

Dear Paul

Your question is a good one. I think some time ago there was a post about
using ceramic tiles from batchoors and kitchens etc. They are really cheap
and quite heat tolerant. Is this not still a viable option? From Italtile
they are really inexpensive, and you can get small lots and oddballs for
even less.

They come in different profiles so your idea about putting a wire band
around them would work on different diameters.

They can also be cut so you could make segmented conical sections without
trouble.

Regards
Crispin

From crispin at NEWDAWN.SZ Fri Apr 23 13:19:14 2004
From: crispin at NEWDAWN.SZ (Crispin and Margaret Pemberton-Pigott)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:02 2004
Subject: Stove emissions testing equipment
Message-ID: <FRI.23.APR.2004.131914.0400.CRISPIN@NEWDAWN.SZ>

Dear Stovers

I have spent quite a week trying to find really useful and affordable
testing equipment. It has not been a rewarding experience.

Mostly useful devices I found:

The U12-014 HOBO thermocouple logger is OK at $119 but there is a major
drawback. Even through it can use thermocouples in the J, K, S and T ranges
(K is alright for stoves) it is a one channel device.

There is a 4-channel thermocouple logger (U12-006) for tracking 4
thermocouples at once, but it can only work at temperatures up to 212 F (J
class temps). This is unbelievable. They do not have a multi-channel
logger for higher temperatures. If you want 3 or 4 thermocouples logged at
once, you have to buy 3 or 4 U12-014's.

The TSI combustions analyzer CA-6203 ($1700) is a pretty good device. There
is a CA-6140 which is less complex and has limited memory ($895) but it is
just below the threshhold of usefulness. The CA-6210 (680 sets of data) is
simply too expensive for what you get. The CA-6203 measures CO drawn from
the stack by a small pump, O2, NOx according to EPA formula 19, plus two
temperatures that can be independent of the stack probe, and shows chimney
draft in 1/100 of a inch of water. The CO measurement is H2 compensated
(not true for the CA-6140). Independent temps require separate
thermocouples. It comes with one thermocouple embedded in the probe. The
CA-6205 can do SOx instead of NOx but it you want 4 gases you have to get
the CA-6210.

Pressing a button on the CA-6203 stores all the variables at once. This can
be done 100 times. It can dump the data with a single putton press. It is
battery operated and the guts works for about 1 year without chemicals after
which 'pots' have to be changed. They die whether or not you use the
device. If it is connected to a computer (extra $ for cable and software)
it can be polled by sending a "V" to the unit through the COM port. It
returns tab-delineated data. Write your own programm to do this. No USB
compatability.

Still seeking a multichannel temp reader/recorder, I found ACR Systems
(.com) in British Columbia. They have a completely programmable 7 channel
recorder that accepts current or voltage producing probes, and you can set
the variables to give 'calibrated' readings. It comes with nothing and is
expensive but might be right for someone who knows of sensors and
thermocouples they want to hook to a universal logger. It has a huge
memory.

They have a 7 channel "Smart Reader 6" which will simultaneously read 7
thermocouples from the whole range. It has a huge memory and can be polled
from the computer, and has nice software for CAN$200 *choke*. The unit is
CAN$1100 and you still have to make or buy thermocouples. Like the HOBO you
can set the timing of readings which are date and time stamped and it can,
again like the HOBO, be left alone reading things for weeks at a time on
internal battery power.

They have a 3 channel version for CAN$549 also with a large memory. The
reason for the 3 channel and 7 channel instead of 4 and 8 is that there is
an on-board thermistor occupying one channel which measures local ambient
temperature and is used to correctly compensate for the thermocouple
readings. They have a 10 year guarantee or bits of it.

Something else I liked after looking around is the Onset H11-001 CO monitor
with Boxcar software. Five year guarantee on the battery. It was $220
though they charged my $55 to ship it which I thought was excessive. It is
a connect-to-the-computer unit that is 'started' (including the possibility
of a delayed start at a future time) by pressing "Go' on the computer. It
can measure CO across a broad range and stores masses of readings.
Thousands. The time between the readings can be set and it can be left for
months or even years without getting the data as long as the total memory is
not overoladed.

It has three ranges of CO readings, which you can turn on one by one or have
all reading simultaneously (which uses more memory per reading). This means

you can put the unit near the centre ceiling of a room in which someone is
cooking and see the tiny fluctuations when there is no cooking, and still
measure the large concentrations during the lighting or extinguishing of a
fire. You can leave the unit in place for weeks and then download the whole
lot to see what the background CO environment is before implementing you
'intervention' (hood, chimney, ICS etc). The three channels recording the
CO give you clear fluctuations at low concentrations and you still get to
see the curve after the low dose channel is overloaded. This is the only
unit I found that works this way.

Although the H11-001 is slow to give a reading in a new enrivonment (11
minutes) this time can be greatly reduced (response greatly increased) by
placing a fan next to it to increase the air turnover. It has little
filters that can be cleaned with compressed air. It is simple and useful
and can be serviced.

Nice going HOBO, why on earth can't we have a 4 channel high temp logger??
Duh!

For those wanting to do routine testing of a number of stove installations,
the CA-6200 series from TSI (I think all in that series) can actually let
you record which site you are testing and keep the readings as a separate
group within memory. That means you can do 'rounds' over a period of time
to see if stoves are performing consistently and then the data can be
downloaded later, separating out which site got which readings. This allows
you to watch for deterioration of stove performance at many locations per
day without having to write everything down on the spot. An unskilled
assistant can do weekly rounds within a village and the computer-savvy
person can collect and differentiate the data later on.

For measuring spot temperatures there is a hand-held gun-shaped FT-80
thermometer (CAN$655!) which can read temperatures up to 1400 deg F and
which can compensate for the shininess of the surface. For that facility
you _pay_.

It has a circle of 6 laser dots showing the circle being read (which varies
with distance) with a larger laser dot in the centre. This is a really cool
device but doesn't record and it wa-a-ay too expensive. For a lot less you
can get one that reads accurately only from black surfaces which isn't much
use to a stove builder. They are all available up to 1600 F if you want to
pay more. The best will read a 1 foot diameter circle from 30 feet away.

Draft velocity: I failed to find anything that can read HOT gas speed (i.e.
above 212F). Room temperature air speed can be measured with a hot wire
anemometer (mounted in a probe) for a huge sum of money. There is one probe
with a little fan blade approx 20mm in diameter that can inaccurately read
velocity but I couldn't find out who makes it. Again, it is not designed to
work in a hot chimney. 3" and 4" fans generating an output are pretty
cheap.

Thermocouples: After finding out that they are rated according to the J,K,S
system (each is a temperature range) I discovered there is a bit of a scam
in selling them. You can buy the wire from Onset (TCW100-K for example) and
get 100 feet for $55. K refers to the temperature range 0-1250C. This wire
you cut to the lengths you want and weld/braze/spotweld/twist the ends
together. That is your thermocouple. You can make them for a couple of
dollars. You can make short ones and attach them to regular wire (#22 or
larger) and make one for 50 cents. Buying them is another matter. CAN$10
for 1 foot and $4.50 per additional foot from ACR Systems. Sheesh!

There is a standard thermocouple connector for loggers. It has two separate
flat pin sockets on the logger. There is a standard connector you can use
for the 'other end' of the thermocouple. They are peanuts to buy.

I am still looking for an affordable multi-channel logger for high
temperature thermocouples.

Regards
Crispin

From psanders at ILSTU.EDU Sun Apr 25 16:18:04 2004
From: psanders at ILSTU.EDU (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:02 2004
Subject: Alternative ceramics was Re: UNfired bricks (on [ethos]
list serve
In-Reply-To: <068501c4294e$cb849c30$2bd0c045@MARGARET>
Message-ID: <SUN.25.APR.2004.151804.0500.PSANDERS@ILSTU.EDU>

Stovers,

Crispin's comment leads me to ask if anyone has "visited the tile shops and
outlets" to see if other existing ceramic products could be suitable for
inexpensive stoves. I have not looked there (yet).

Paul

At 12:16 PM 4/23/04 -0400, Crispin and Margaret Pemberton-Pigott wrote:
>Dear Paul
>
>Your question is a good one. I think some time ago there was a post about
>using ceramic tiles from batchoors and kitchens etc. They are really cheap
>and quite heat tolerant. Is this not still a viable option? From Italtile
>they are really inexpensive, and you can get small lots and oddballs for
>even less.
>
>They come in different profiles so your idea about putting a wire band
>around them would work on different diameters.
>
>They can also be cut so you could make segmented conical sections without
>trouble.
>
>Regards
>Crispin

From lanny at ROMAN.NET Sun Apr 25 17:47:40 2004
From: lanny at ROMAN.NET (Lanny Henson)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:02 2004
Subject: Alternative ceramics was Re: UNfired bricks (on [ethos]
list serve
Message-ID: <SUN.25.APR.2004.174740.0400.LANNY@ROMAN.NET>

Paul,
Here is something that I have experimented with but I have not tested in a
stove. That is to use fiberglass fabric (welders blanket) and thin stove
cement to build up plies around a form. Then burn away the form to leave a
ridged and fairly tough shape. I once used a cardboard tube.
Here is a can as a form. 36K http://www.lanny.us/thinw3.jpg
What do you think?
Lanny Henson

----- Original Message -----
From: Paul S. Anderson <psanders@ILSTU.EDU>
To: <STOVES@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2004 5:18 PM
Subject: [STOVES] Alternative ceramics was Re: UNfired bricks (on [ethos]
list serve

> Stovers and all,
>
> At 06:34 PM 3/18/04 +0000, kgoyer@comcast.net wrote:
> >Dear friends, My experience has been that unfired ceramics do not work. I
> >call them desperation ceramics. Its not that I haven't tried.
>
> Ken is an expert. PERHAPS someday there will be an unfired ceramic that
> does work. But for the present, we might want to consider other
alternatives.
>
> My though is this:
> What are the options of strong HIGH-MASS materials that are really rather
> thin? That is, NOT a thick brick that steals the heat, but some 1 cm thin
> (? or less?) ceramic that can either stand by itself (air is on the other
> side) or could be placed with and supported by some back-up low-density
> materials that are easy to make (or even mix and pour like a cement).
>
> Whether for the combustion chamber of a Rocket stove or for the internal
> parts of a Juntos gasifier (or for other stoves, also), the size of the
> area with the high heat is rather small and would be able to be heated
> quite quickly at start-up (or perhaps be "pre-heated") and from then on it
> would not be stealing any heat.
>
> Could be like a bottle shape, or in pieces-that-fit-together as is done
> with the bricks in some models of the Rocket stove. If fit-together type,
> they could be secured with a metal band or wire or have a base or neck
that
> keeps the pieces together.
>
> Paul
>
> Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
> Rotary University Teacher Grantee to Mozambique >10 mo of 2001-2003
> Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
> Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
> E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders

From psanders at ILSTU.EDU Sun Apr 25 18:16:25 2004
From: psanders at ILSTU.EDU (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:02 2004
Subject: Alternative ceramics was Re: UNfired bricks (on [ethos]
list serve
In-Reply-To: <003201c42b0e$f5a53d00$79387f41@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <SUN.25.APR.2004.171625.0500.PSANDERS@ILSTU.EDU>

Lanny,

thanks for the info and picture. I like it!!!!

What do you mean by "thin stove cement"?

Paul

At 05:47 PM 4/25/04 -0400, Lanny Henson wrote:
>Paul,
>Here is something that I have experimented with but I have not tested in a
>stove. That is to use fiberglass fabric (welders blanket) and thin stove
>cement to build up plies around a form. Then burn away the form to leave a
>ridged and fairly tough shape. I once used a cardboard tube.
>Here is a can as a form. 36K http://www.lanny.us/thinw3.jpg
>What do you think?
>Lanny Henson

From lanny at ROMAN.NET Sun Apr 25 20:48:07 2004
From: lanny at ROMAN.NET (Lanny Henson)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:02 2004
Subject: Alternative ceramics was Re: UNfired bricks (on [ethos]
list serve
Message-ID: <SUN.25.APR.2004.204807.0400.LANNY@ROMAN.NET>

Paul,
Thin it with water till it wets and sticks to the cloth (thin pancake
batter). Too much water leaves voids. A welders blanket that is uncoated
with silicone or neoprene would be best. The material that I am using is
about 1/3 as thick as a typical welding blanket so it may not work.
Let us know if you do something.
Lanny Henson

----- Original Message -----
From: Paul S. Anderson <psanders@ILSTU.EDU>
To: <STOVES@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2004 6:16 PM
Subject: Re: [STOVES] Alternative ceramics was Re: UNfired bricks (on
[ethos] list serve

> Lanny,
>
> thanks for the info and picture. I like it!!!!
>
> What do you mean by "thin stove cement"?
>
> Paul
>
> At 05:47 PM 4/25/04 -0400, Lanny Henson wrote:
> >Paul,
> >Here is something that I have experimented with but I have not tested in
a
> >stove. That is to use fiberglass fabric (welders blanket) and thin stove
> >cement to build up plies around a form. Then burn away the form to leave
a
> >ridged and fairly tough shape. I once used a cardboard tube.
> >Here is a can as a form. 36K http://www.lanny.us/thinw3.jpg
> >What do you think?
> >Lanny Henson
>
> Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
> Rotary University Teacher Grantee to Mozambique >10 mo of 2001-2003
> Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
> Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
> E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders

From crispin at NEWDAWN.SZ Mon Apr 26 17:38:40 2004
From: crispin at NEWDAWN.SZ (Crispin and Margaret Pemberton-Pigott)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:02 2004
Subject: Stove emissions testing equipment
Message-ID: <MON.26.APR.2004.173840.0400.CRISPIN@NEWDAWN.SZ>

Dear Stovers

Jeff Forssell has pointed me to a unit for recording multiple temperatures
that is basically for lab conditions in that it has to be connected to a
computer to work. It looks like a very useful device if you are able to log
the data yourself onto your computer. The sofware from
<http://www.picotech.com/data-acquisition.html> is free which is a darned
sight better than $200.

My son Jeremy says that he built a 32 channel analogue to digital converter
(which is what I am after) with an on-board 8088 processor. It was
programmed in BASIC and it could even control devices with some of the
channels if you wanted. The problem it is cost $200 to build from parts so
there is nothing free in this league.

Picotech has a number of devices which plug in and use no power. They have
up to 22 channels. The data is converted to temperatures, humidity, Ph etc
on the computer and it is very flexible.

I have a feeling that if someone were to be starting out on a monitoring
quest I would recommend such a multi-channel simple device with simple
software. Then you connect any 'dumb device' to the digitizer and then set
the parameters on the computer. This only applies to a 'lab' situation
where you are close to power and a PC.

If you start this way, you can add any detector or device that comes along
without having to buy another processor for each device to convert the
signal.

Regards
Crispin

From adkarve at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN Tue Apr 27 23:55:58 2004
From: adkarve at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN (adkarve)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:02 2004
Subject: Native Americans might use our stoves
Message-ID: <WED.28.APR.2004.092558.0530.ADKARVE@PN2.VSNL.NET.IN>

Dear Mr. Olsen,
biomass like straw, sawdust and twigs of small shrubs can be easily charred
in the portable oven and retort system developed by us. The char is then
transported to a central briquetting unit for conversion into briquettes. An
entrepreneur invests about US$8000 to buy 20 of these portable kilns, one
briquette extruder and the motive power drive for the extruder. He finds 10
families, whom he gives two kilns each, with a guarantee to buy back all the
char that they produce. It requires two persons to operate a kiln, but the
same two persons can also simultaneously operate two kilns. In India, two
persons, operating two kilns simultaneously, can earn Rs. 200 per day. This
works out to Rs. 100 per person or twice the wage of a labourer. The
entrepreneur converts the char into briquettes and sells them. We have been
conducting a briquetting business on these lines for the last two years. In
order to use the briquettes rationally, we have developed a cooker, called
the Sarai cooker that cooks three items of food simultaneously. It is the
Sarai cooker owners who are our permanent customers for the char briquettes.
In case you wish to know more about this process, we can send you a video CD
showing the entire process step by step. The CD costs US$2.5. Postage and
packing are extra.
Yours
Dr.A.D.Karve, President,
Appropriate Rural Technology Institute,
Pune, India.
----- Original Message -----
From: John Olsen <cree@DOWCO.COM>
To: <STOVES@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
Sent: Friday, March 26, 2004 8:54 PM
Subject: Re: [STOVES] Native Americans might use our stoves

> Paul, in response to your message re the Navajo, et al.
> I am working with Native people in North America, and in South America.
> Actually, I am a Status Indian, from Peguis 1st Nation, Manitoba, Canada.
> My Mum lived on the reserve, and although she had an abundance of
firewood,
> never used it..
> She couldn't lift the chunks up to place in the fire, as they were wet and
> heavy.
> This spurred my interest, and now my passion, to manufacture, and market,
> the best solid fuel available.
> Parameters being, has to be lightweight, inexpensive, and able to utilize
> the abundant dry sawdust/biomass.
> Creating sustainable employment in mini factories on Indian reservations
> across North America, producing and marketing, solid smokeless fuel,
> is going to be my Company's legacy.
> regards
> John Olsen
> ww.heatloginc.com

From w.burroughs at VERIZON.NET Wed Apr 28 12:52:56 2004
From: w.burroughs at VERIZON.NET (Hank or Margaret)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:02 2004
Subject: Briquette CD
Message-ID: <WED.28.APR.2004.095256.0700.W.BURROUGHS@VERIZON.NET>

How do we get one of these CDs? Sounds like an interesting project but the
income is probably too low for use in the United States. Still, I wonder
how some thing like this might work in a logged area that is slated for
slash burning. Maybe a valuable product could be made instead of a lot of
smoke!!

Hank in the high desert

SNIP-----

> In case you wish to know more about this process, we can send you a video
CD
> showing the entire process step by step. The CD costs US$2.5. Postage and
> packing are extra.
> Yours
> Dr.A.D.Karve, President,
> Appropriate Rural Technology Institute,
> Pune, India.

From w.burroughs at VERIZON.NET Wed Apr 28 17:26:51 2004
From: w.burroughs at VERIZON.NET (Hank or Margaret)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:02 2004
Subject: Mixed messages
Message-ID: <WED.28.APR.2004.142651.0700.W.BURROUGHS@VERIZON.NET>

Boy !! Something really got confused!! I thought I sent a message to AD Karve and to the list to get more information on his CD on charcoal briquetting. Maybe he got it and will answer on the list. If he replies directly to me and not to the list, I will forward info to Beatriz Harrick on getting the CD..

To Richard Stanley all I can say is I don't know how my messages got to you. However, I may be glad that they did as your site www.legacyfound.org has some very interesting information and equipment for sale. I may want to consider your system instead of the charcoal or in addition to it..BTW Southern Oregon is where I got my BS in Ed many years ago. Glad to see them helping energy efficient projects.

My interest came about because of all the smaller limbs that are cut off the trees at my southern California location and the pruning from the local orchards where I summer in Oregon. Both situations are like coppicing and I think would make a valuable fuel source with some of the stoves I have seen described here.

So far I have been working on solar cooking but find that even in the desert it often does not work at certain times of the year. Therefore, a biomass fuelled stove and or heater could be nice to have. Number one son is interested in gasifyers and I think this summer we should also consider some type of "rocket" stove project. seems like the fuel source will be branches under 2" in diameter with many under 1".

Hank in the high desert

From dstill at EPUD.NET Thu Apr 29 05:17:00 2004
From: dstill at EPUD.NET (Dean Still)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:02 2004
Subject: Stove Performance Manual
Message-ID: <THU.29.APR.2004.021700.0700.DSTILL@EPUD.NET>

Dear Friends,

We have been busy here at Aprovecho with projects in Africa and Central
America, Mexico, etc. But my life has settled down a bit and I am getting
organized to do the following project:

Create a Stove Performance Manual by doing experiments on popular cooking
stoves now in use. We will be conducting three types of experiments on each
stove:

1.) Exposure to cook of CO and particulates using equipment suggested by
ITDG and UC Berkeley at the Partnership meeting in Rome. Cook a standard
meal using popular wood burning stoves, in a controlled environment, to see
differences from stoves. Use pumped air to protect cook. Put monitors near
mouth/nose of cook.

2.) Determine emissions (CO/CO2, particulates) using the hood method
suggested by Grant Ballard-Tremeer.

3.) Fuel efficiency, turn down ratio, specific consumption, cost, etc. using
newly revised VITA test

That way we can see stove differences from lots of angles. See if emissions
and exposure are related. Should be, I suppose...Of course, these measures
will not necessarily be predictive of field performance. But I imagine that
like MPG ratings for different cars the data will show real differences. A
particular driver will probably not get the same MPG as indicated by the lab
test but will know that generally a Toyota will use less gas than a Dodge.
We intend to include a wide range of stoves including wood burning,
charcoal, kerosene, LPG, solar, etc.

I have various popular stoves here but need stoves particularly from Asia.
But I invite anyone disseminating stoves to get in touch with me. We very
much want to create a "Consumer's Guide" including all types of stove
variations. We can help with mailing costs.

Plan to have the manual ready to be presented at ETHOS '05 in Seattle! All
of this equipment should be up and running for the Stove Summer Camp here at
Aprovecho. Bring a stove! Dates to be determined soon!

All Best,

Dean

From adkarve at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN Wed Apr 28 21:55:03 2004
From: adkarve at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN (adkarve)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:02 2004
Subject: Briquette CD
Message-ID: <THU.29.APR.2004.072503.0530.ADKARVE@PN2.VSNL.NET.IN>

Dear Hank,
I was recently in the US and realised that the price of domestic fuel in the
form of cut wood or barbecue charcoal was much higher than in India.
Therefore, I feel that the amount earned by the char makers in the US would
also be proportionately higher. In the 19th and the 20th century, factory
made items used to be cheaper than the corresponding products made manually
by artisans. But nowadays, the high transport costs, high corporate
salaries and the cost of maintaining the distributer network, often work
against factory made items. The local small scale manufacturers can sell
directly to the endconsumers, without having to go through the chain of
distributers. We are operating a number of small businesses on these lines,
giving the entrepreneurs an income equivalent to highly paid executives in a
city. The idea is Gandhian ( the Mahatma and not the family of politicians
having the same family name) and it works, at least in India.
Please let me know the address to which the CD is to be sent. I shall then
inquire with a courier company, how much they would charge for delivering
the CD to that address. I shall then let you know the amount to be paid to
us. When we get the money, we shall send the CD.
Yours
A.D.Karve
----- Original Message -----
From: Hank or Margaret <w.burroughs@verizon.net>
To: adkarve <adkarve@PN2.VSNL.NET.IN>; <STOVES@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2004 10:22 PM
Subject: Briquette CD

> How do we get one of these CDs? Sounds like an interesting project but
the
> income is probably too low for use in the United States. Still, I wonder
> how some thing like this might work in a logged area that is slated for
> slash burning. Maybe a valuable product could be made instead of a lot of
> smoke!!
>
> Hank in the high desert
>
> SNIP-----
>
> > In case you wish to know more about this process, we can send you a
video
> CD
> > showing the entire process step by step. The CD costs US$2.5. Postage
and
> > packing are extra.
> > Yours
> > Dr.A.D.Karve, President,
> > Appropriate Rural Technology Institute,
> > Pune, India.
>
>

From psanders at ILSTU.EDU Thu Apr 29 17:28:15 2004
From: psanders at ILSTU.EDU (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:02 2004
Subject: [ethos] Stove Performance Manual
In-Reply-To: <20040429091701.721AD1E1@telchar.epud.net>
Message-ID: <THU.29.APR.2004.162815.0500.PSANDERS@ILSTU.EDU>

Dean,

Great idea and objective.

We would need to know what you intend to cook. ( x liters of water with
rice, or frying something, etc.) because some stoves are made for certain
types of pots, etc.

I will provide an appropriate Juntos gasifier (most recent innovations).

Dates of summer camp are anxiously awaited.

Paul

At 02:17 AM 4/29/04 -0700, Dean Still wrote:

>Dear Friends,
>
>
>
>We have been busy here at Aprovecho with projects in Africa and Central
>America, Mexico, etc. But my life has settled down a bit and I am getting
>organized to do the following project:
>
>
>
>Create a Stove Performance Manual by doing experiments on popular cooking
>stoves now in use. We will be conducting three types of experiments on
>each stove:
>
>
>
>1.) Exposure to cook of CO and particulates using equipment suggested by
>ITDG and UC Berkeley at the Partnership meeting in Rome. Cook a standard
>meal using popular wood burning stoves, in a controlled environment, to
>see differences from stoves. Use pumped air to protect cook. Put monitors
>near mouth/nose of cook.
>
>2.) Determine emissions (CO/CO2, particulates) using the hood method
>suggested by Grant Ballard-Tremeer.
>
>3.) Fuel efficiency, turn down ratio, specific consumption, cost, etc.
>using newly revised VITA test
>
>
>
>That way we can see stove differences from lots of angles. See if
>emissions and exposure are related. Should be, I suppose...Of course,
>these measures will not necessarily be predictive of field performance.
>But I imagine that like MPG ratings for different cars the data will show
>real differences. A particular driver will probably not get the same MPG
>as indicated by the lab test but will know that generally a Toyota will
>use less gas than a Dodge. We intend to include a wide range of stoves
>including wood burning, charcoal, kerosene, LPG, solar, etc.
>
>
>
>I have various popular stoves here but need stoves particularly from Asia.
>But I invite anyone disseminating stoves to get in touch with me. We very
>much want to create a Consumer s Guide including all types of stove
>variations. We can help with mailing costs&
>
>
>
>Plan to have the manual ready to be presented at ETHOS 05 in Seattle! All
>of this equipment should be up and running for the Stove Summer Camp here
>at Aprovecho. Bring a stove! Dates to be determined soon!
>
>
>
>All Best,
>
>
>
>Dean
>
>
>
>
>
>

From list at SYLVA.ICUKLIVE.CO.UK Thu Apr 29 17:44:16 2004
From: list at SYLVA.ICUKLIVE.CO.UK (AJH)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:02 2004
Subject: Mixed messages
In-Reply-To: <014401c42d67$874f0240$6501a8c0@dslverizon.net>
Message-ID: <THU.29.APR.2004.224416.0100.LIST@SYLVA.ICUKLIVE.CO.UK>

On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 14:26:51 -0700, Hank wrote:

>So far I have been working on solar cooking but find that even in the desert it often does not work at certain times of the year. Therefore, a biomass fuelled stove and or heater could be nice to have. Number one son is interested in gasifyers and I think this summer we should also consider some type of "rocket" stove project. seems like the fuel source will be branches under 2" in diameter with many under 1".

Hi Hank

This is my first posting from my new e-mail address so I hope it gets
through.

It's always amused me that, in UK, people demand firewood that has
been cut and split, they object to small logs in the round. Similarly
charcoal burners fell and trim out trees and only take the cordwood
for the kiln. For most of the 4000 years since our island was denuded
of forests, by agriculture and grazing, the structural products of our
vestiges of woodland were too valuable to burn as fuel, so the
fuelwood was often bundles of smaller diameter material, gathered much
as sheaves, from either lop and top or coppice.

My interest has been in gathering this small material and cleanly
making charcoal from it, on the ground that coppice and lop and top
does not compete with commercial markets, like pulpwood, and there is
no need to produce bits of charcoal greater than 50mm in size, though
there is no current market for fines <10mm.

Bundles, bales, bavins or faggots have a number of advantages over
other methods of preparing fuel, a big one is that even in our
temperate climate they dry without too much dry matter loss. They also
dry extremely quickly if they contain no bits greater than 50mm
diameter.

AJH

From adkarve at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN Thu Apr 29 09:49:40 2004
From: adkarve at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN (adkarve)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:02 2004
Subject: Availability of Fuel for smokeless (gasifier-type) domestic
cookers.
Message-ID: <THU.29.APR.2004.191940.0530.ADKARVE@PN2.VSNL.NET.IN>

Dear Ray,
in view of our cordial relationship, you would receive a complimentary copy
of the charcoal making CD. Please let me know the exact postal address to
which it should be sent.
As to selling the char briquettes, we have 6 retail outlets in different
localities in Pune city. Persons who have purchased our Sarai cooker go to
the nearest outlet and buy the briquettes. The demand is quite good, but we
are unable to supply all the char briquettes that people need. Because of
severe drought in Maharashtra, the sugar factories stopped functioning in
January itself, because of non-availability of sugarcane. We had to stop our
char briquette manufacture too since January. We are investigating
alternatives to sugarcane trash, but haven't found anything that is so
abundantly and so easily available. There is a ban in Maharashtra state on
making charcoal from wood. There is ample prosopis juliflora (mesquite)
growing everywhere. People cut it and sell it as firewood, but if we made
charcoal from it, we would be breaking the law.
Yours
A.D.Karve
----- Original Message -----
From: Dr. Ray Wijewardene <raywije@eureka.lk>
To: <adkarve@pn2.vsnl.net.in>
Cc: <tombreed@comcast.net>; <nerdc@sri.lanka.net>
Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2004 11:39 PM
Subject: Availability of Fuel for smokeless (gasifier-type) domestic
cookers.

> For: Dr. A.D.Karve (Pune)with copies to Tom Reed (USA) and DMPunchibanda
> (NERDC, SL)
>
> Dear A.D.
>
> 1. I note that you have copies for sale of videos (or CDs) describing a.
the
> cooker in use and b.
> the charcoal making process in use. I will be happy to send payment in
> US$ for both of these
> (perhaps the CD will be easier to mail) Will you be accepting credit
card
> (VISA, MC. or AMEX)
> or may I send you a check on a US bank (kindly advise the name of the
> recipient)... I shall
> also be happy share these with PunchiBanda and his colleagues at NERD.
>
> 2. We in SL also find a very real constraint in the marketing of the
> gassifier-cooker in the non-
> availability CONVENIENTLY of the wood chips (not as convenient as the
LPG
> cylinders for which
> a convenient distribution organisation exists in urban areas). I note
> that you hface the same
> constraint with the convenient-availability of charcoal chips... and
> would be interested to
> hear of how your charcoal is marketed (such as ex-fuel-wood stores, or
in
> the more luxuriated
> super-markets in packaged form.
>
> It is interesting that whereas we were all keen about improving the
cost
> efficiency and fuel-
> efficiency of such wood-burning stovers, we ALL kept overlooking the
> factor of CONVENIENCE for
> the housewife...CONVENIENCE in its many forms..
> ease-of-operation-and-heat-regulation... as
> well as in obtaining the correctly sized fuels.... versus the more
> locally conventional
> (albeit more expensive and sooty) systems for which distribution is
> already well established
> with housewife-convenience the foremost factor.... FAR more than costs!
>
> Ray ... (Ray Wijewardene)
>
>

From lanny at ROMAN.NET Thu Apr 29 20:31:02 2004
From: lanny at ROMAN.NET (Lanny Henson)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:02 2004
Subject: Lanny Henson's Charcoal Slow Cooker prototype #2
Message-ID: <THU.29.APR.2004.203102.0400.LANNY@ROMAN.NET>

Dear stove friends,
I check out my new cook stove design.

The Charcoal Slow Cooker prototype #2 is a cook stove design for people in
developing regions.
http://www.lanny.us/0csc.html

My charcoal fired slow cooker holds two 8-quart BM pots.
It is very simple and easy to build from two buckets and some other very
common materials.
It has good cooking efficiency and the exhaust is almost unperceivable at
low power.

It is easy to fire and use. With a little practice one can light it and
forget it.
The exhaust outlet can be vented to the outside or you can just set the
stove outside.
It is lightweight and portable. It even cooks on the go for street vending
or a ride in the back of a pickup truck.
It features a new way to insulate by using very common materials and will
simmer and hold 7 liters or more for 12 hours or longer on one load of 250
grams of charcoal or less. That is simmer and hold 7 liters of already hot
water.
It takes about 225 grams to bring 7 liters to a boil and retain enough heat
to cook for 2 or 3 hours.

I am very pleased with this design. It requires minimum skills, few tools,
little or no equipment and can
be made from common materials. The methods used allows the design to be
morphed to accommodate different stove bodies.
This stove has many unique features, one is the tin can adjustable air
intake.
This is an ongoing design. Prototype #3 will have a little more flow and be
a little faster.
Also it could use another 1/2" of top clearance for the second pot.

Having fun,
Lanny Henson

From tombreed at COMCAST.NET Fri Apr 30 09:13:28 2004
From: tombreed at COMCAST.NET (TBReed)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:02 2004
Subject: Availability of Fuel for smokeless (gasifier-type) domestic
cookers.
Message-ID: <FRI.30.APR.2004.071328.0600.TOMBREED@COMCAST.NET>

Dear ADKarve, Ray and All:

ADK said..
There is a ban in Maharashtra state on
> making charcoal from wood. There is ample prosopis juliflora (mesquite)
> growing everywhere. People cut it and sell it as firewood, but if we made
> charcoal from it, we would be breaking the law.

There are probably two good reasons for the law against making charcoal from
wood in Maharashtra (and possibly political and financial reasons as well).

1) The yield of charcoal from wood is typically 15-25%, so that >2/3 of the
energy is wasted.

2) Conventional charcoal making puts out incredible amounts of
yellow-green emissions, so that the "clean cooking" for the family becomes
dirty air for the rest of us!

ADK's new cane charcoal process has minimal emissions and would also have
minimal emissions for wood, I presume. This overcomes objection 2. If ADK
can now find some use for the heat that he generates by burning the
yellow-green tar emissions, he will have overcome objection 1.

~~~~~~~~~~~~
The process of toplit updraft (inverted downdraft) cooking on the other hand
uses 3/4 of the heat content for clean cooking by burning the emissions and
leaves 5-25% (depending on moisture content) as a charcoal by-product. There
must be some happy combination of these two processes.

Musing.

Tom Reed BEF

----- Original Message -----
From: "adkarve" <adkarve@PN2.VSNL.NET.IN>
To: <STOVES@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2004 7:49 AM
Subject: Re: [STOVES] Availability of Fuel for smokeless (gasifier-type)
domestic cookers.

> Dear Ray,
> in view of our cordial relationship, you would receive a complimentary
copy
> of the charcoal making CD. Please let me know the exact postal address to
> which it should be sent.
> As to selling the char briquettes, we have 6 retail outlets in different
> localities in Pune city. Persons who have purchased our Sarai cooker go
to
> the nearest outlet and buy the briquettes. The demand is quite good, but
we
> are unable to supply all the char briquettes that people need. Because of
> severe drought in Maharashtra, the sugar factories stopped functioning in
> January itself, because of non-availability of sugarcane. We had to stop
our
> char briquette manufacture too since January. We are investigating
> alternatives to sugarcane trash, but haven't found anything that is so
> abundantly and so easily available. There is a ban in Maharashtra state on
> making charcoal from wood. There is ample prosopis juliflora (mesquite)
> growing everywhere. People cut it and sell it as firewood, but if we made
> charcoal from it, we would be breaking the law.
> Yours
> A.D.Karve
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Dr. Ray Wijewardene <raywije@eureka.lk>
> To: <adkarve@pn2.vsnl.net.in>
> Cc: <tombreed@comcast.net>; <nerdc@sri.lanka.net>
> Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2004 11:39 PM
> Subject: Availability of Fuel for smokeless (gasifier-type) domestic
> cookers.
>
>
> > For: Dr. A.D.Karve (Pune)with copies to Tom Reed (USA) and DMPunchibanda
> > (NERDC, SL)
> >
> > Dear A.D.
> >
> > 1. I note that you have copies for sale of videos (or CDs) describing a.
> the
> > cooker in use and b.
> > the charcoal making process in use. I will be happy to send payment
in
> > US$ for both of these
> > (perhaps the CD will be easier to mail) Will you be accepting credit
> card
> > (VISA, MC. or AMEX)
> > or may I send you a check on a US bank (kindly advise the name of the
> > recipient)... I shall
> > also be happy share these with PunchiBanda and his colleagues at
NERD.
> >
> > 2. We in SL also find a very real constraint in the marketing of the
> > gassifier-cooker in the non-
> > availability CONVENIENTLY of the wood chips (not as convenient as the
> LPG
> > cylinders for which
> > a convenient distribution organisation exists in urban areas). I note
> > that you hface the same
> > constraint with the convenient-availability of charcoal chips... and
> > would be interested to
> > hear of how your charcoal is marketed (such as ex-fuel-wood stores,
or
> in
> > the more luxuriated
> > super-markets in packaged form.
> >
> > It is interesting that whereas we were all keen about improving the
> cost
> > efficiency and fuel-
> > efficiency of such wood-burning stovers, we ALL kept overlooking the
> > factor of CONVENIENCE for
> > the housewife...CONVENIENCE in its many forms..
> > ease-of-operation-and-heat-regulation... as
> > well as in obtaining the correctly sized fuels.... versus the more
> > locally conventional
> > (albeit more expensive and sooty) systems for which distribution is
> > already well established
> > with housewife-convenience the foremost factor.... FAR more than
costs!
> >
> > Ray ... (Ray Wijewardene)
> >
> >

From crispin at NEWDAWN.SZ Fri Apr 30 10:52:34 2004
From: crispin at NEWDAWN.SZ (Crispin /Posix)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:02 2004
Subject: Stove Performance Manual
Message-ID: <FRI.30.APR.2004.165234.0200.CRISPIN@NEWDAWN.SZ>

Dear Dean

I agree with Paul: good idea and objective.

I talked for quite some time with Peter Scott when he was in JHB a few weeks
ago and I am worried that the operation of the Vesto you have is not
understood. He said that they are still not able to get the type of
combustion he saw when I was operating the stove in Vereeniging. I think it
is a matter of its being over-fuelled in the beginning but I am not sure. I
have never had a chance to demonstrate to any Aprovecho staff how the stove
should be used. Even in Kirkland there was no suitable wood and I made do
by breaking up some wet branches we found around the garden. I was reduced
to talking about how it should be fuelled rather than demonstrating it.

This raises the question of your finding out how stoves are supposed to be
used if you are going to test them. If you get them from around the world it
will also be necessary to know how to operate them properly in order to
produce a meaningful comparison. How would you learn to operate our new
downdraft Vesto?

My experience with independent testing of water pumps, stoves, cooking oil
presses and possibly other things I make but didn't know were being tested,
is, to say the least, disappointing. I have not yet, even once, been asked
to train an operator of a device we manufacture before 'independent testing'
was undertaken. Why, I have no idea. Ordinary customers are all trained
when they buy something but equipment testers all seem to feel no need of
it. Even the German university that did emissions testing on the early
Vesto did not receive any training in its operation. They said that when the
stove was up to operating temperature the emissions met the German air
quality standards for indoor cooking (like propane, natural gas kitchen
stoves) but their heat transfer efficiency results were low because they
wern't using the pots for which it was designed, about which I complained
and about which nothing happened. C'est la vie. It was an independent
test.

Aprovecho, as a vigorous promoter of one type of stove (Rocket stoves in
various manifestations) should, I think, go out of their way to ensure that
the stoves they bring in are operated by someone familiar with them if they
are going to publish something of a comparative and educational nature.

There are several pitfalls involved with rating stoves for various things
(rapid heating, higher power, low emissions) which have been discussed at
length in this forum so I am glad you guys are doing this not me. If, for
example, an operator is being told that they are going to be tested for high
power output, then the stove can be operated so as to give the highest
possible power. If the test is for lowest emissions, then a skillful
operator will run the stove in a low-emissions manner. If it is for maximum
PHU then the operator changes his technique accordingly.

At the Kirkland meeting there was a presentation on a stove type being used
in Brazil. Ostensibly it was a plancha Rocket stove. It had major problems
with clogging of the chimney and he experimented with fibreglass as a filter
to prevent it, but the fibreglass clogged so quickly he had to take it out.
To me it appeared to be either a fuel problem or an operator problem because
the combustion was obviously not going well. In my experience Rocket stoves
do not normally have this type of problem so it would be unfair to judge the
performance of Rocket stoves based on that project. As a builder and vendor
of Rocket stoves, how would he do testing stoves made by others?

It would be interesting to see what claim would be made in the output
document for an open 'three stone' fire. Piet Visser showed 20 years ago
that efficiencies of over 30% (PHU) are attainable. We usually see a claim
of 10% or less for open fires, which is less than 1/3 of what the
technololgy is capable of doing if skillfully operated. Would you invite
Piet to run the three stone fire for comparison?

If a Jiko stove is modestly overloaded with charcoal the CO production
shoots up due to a lack of air. I wouldn't have a clue how much it should
be loaded with in order to burn cleanly so I couldn't fairly test one for
emissions.

One way to test different stoves is to use the Stoves Camp and have people
operate stoves they know well under test conditions. I have often asked for
a similar (what is in fact a) 'competition' in the cooking oil press field
where one finds many different models designed to extract sunflower oil. It
takes about 4 months full time for a person to learn how to run an oil press
properly. I have observed that operating an oil press is similar in many
ways to operating a stove. Almost everything is a variable and a skilfull
operator always gets better performance by optimizing things for the
conditions of the test.

What you are proposing is a valuable exercise. I feel that a well-run
Mandaleo stove is pretty efficient when it is hot, certainly far more
efficient that I see in the literature on it. It isn't being run correctly
in my opinion. Being a simple device, it is all about operator training and
fuel preparation. Given the huge improvement Christa Roth got when people
were trained in Mandaleo stove operation it is clear that hardware+the right
software is the necessary combination.

Paul wrote:
>I will provide an appropriate Juntos gasifier (most recent innovations).

I think it would be wise for Paul to run the stove for the testing if he is
available. Let him show us what it can do. I am very interested in the
emissions level of a well run gasifier. It could point out new directions
for our own research.

Many thanks
Crispin

From psanders at ILSTU.EDU Fri Apr 30 15:58:50 2004
From: psanders at ILSTU.EDU (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:03 2004
Subject: Stove Performance Manual
In-Reply-To: <011c01c42ec2$eddaf760$cb83fea9@md>
Message-ID: <FRI.30.APR.2004.145850.0500.PSANDERS@ILSTU.EDU>

Stovers,

Crispin's comments lead me to say that if there are 3 or more
"efficiencies" or measurements for comparisons of stoves, we should measure
ALL of them at the same time. Perhaps the same stove should be run to show
its BEST efficiency in one category (A) of measurement, but at the same
time we should see the impact on measurements of B and C and D. Then when
maximized for B, what happens to A and C and D. And so forth.

If the testing does not allow for complete measurements at each of the
"best" efficiencies, we at least need to give notes about what seems to be
the impact on the other measurements.

For example, a stove with low emissions (but lousy heat) in one test might
kill some people when run at the settings for its great heat (but lousy
emissions)!!! Unlikely in the laboratory, but very possible in the cook-hut.

I hope that Aprovecho can suggest some alternative dates and let those who
have any prospect of attending say which ones will work and not work for them.

Paul

At 04:52 PM 4/30/04 +0200, Crispin /Posix wrote:
>Dear Dean
>
>I agree with Paul: good idea and objective.
>
>I talked for quite some time with Peter Scott when he was in JHB a few weeks
>ago and I am worried that the operation of the Vesto you have is not
>understood. He said that they are still not able to get the type of
>combustion he saw when I was operating the stove in Vereeniging. I think it
>is a matter of its being over-fuelled in the beginning but I am not sure. I
>have never had a chance to demonstrate to any Aprovecho staff how the stove
>should be used. Even in Kirkland there was no suitable wood and I made do
>by breaking up some wet branches we found around the garden. I was reduced
>to talking about how it should be fuelled rather than demonstrating it.
>
>This raises the question of your finding out how stoves are supposed to be
>used if you are going to test them. If you get them from around the world it
>will also be necessary to know how to operate them properly in order to
>produce a meaningful comparison. How would you learn to operate our new
>downdraft Vesto?
>
>My experience with independent testing of water pumps, stoves, cooking oil
>presses and possibly other things I make but didn't know were being tested,
>is, to say the least, disappointing. I have not yet, even once, been asked
>to train an operator of a device we manufacture before 'independent testing'
>was undertaken. Why, I have no idea. Ordinary customers are all trained
>when they buy something but equipment testers all seem to feel no need of
>it. Even the German university that did emissions testing on the early
>Vesto did not receive any training in its operation. They said that when the
>stove was up to operating temperature the emissions met the German air
>quality standards for indoor cooking (like propane, natural gas kitchen
>stoves) but their heat transfer efficiency results were low because they
>wern't using the pots for which it was designed, about which I complained
>and about which nothing happened. C'est la vie. It was an independent
>test.
>
>Aprovecho, as a vigorous promoter of one type of stove (Rocket stoves in
>various manifestations) should, I think, go out of their way to ensure that
>the stoves they bring in are operated by someone familiar with them if they
>are going to publish something of a comparative and educational nature.
>
>There are several pitfalls involved with rating stoves for various things
>(rapid heating, higher power, low emissions) which have been discussed at
>length in this forum so I am glad you guys are doing this not me. If, for
>example, an operator is being told that they are going to be tested for high
>power output, then the stove can be operated so as to give the highest
>possible power. If the test is for lowest emissions, then a skillful
>operator will run the stove in a low-emissions manner. If it is for maximum
>PHU then the operator changes his technique accordingly.
>
>At the Kirkland meeting there was a presentation on a stove type being used
>in Brazil. Ostensibly it was a plancha Rocket stove. It had major problems
>with clogging of the chimney and he experimented with fibreglass as a filter
>to prevent it, but the fibreglass clogged so quickly he had to take it out.
>To me it appeared to be either a fuel problem or an operator problem because
>the combustion was obviously not going well. In my experience Rocket stoves
>do not normally have this type of problem so it would be unfair to judge the
>performance of Rocket stoves based on that project. As a builder and vendor
>of Rocket stoves, how would he do testing stoves made by others?
>
>It would be interesting to see what claim would be made in the output
>document for an open 'three stone' fire. Piet Visser showed 20 years ago
>that efficiencies of over 30% (PHU) are attainable. We usually see a claim
>of 10% or less for open fires, which is less than 1/3 of what the
>technololgy is capable of doing if skillfully operated. Would you invite
>Piet to run the three stone fire for comparison?
>
>If a Jiko stove is modestly overloaded with charcoal the CO production
>shoots up due to a lack of air. I wouldn't have a clue how much it should
>be loaded with in order to burn cleanly so I couldn't fairly test one for
>emissions.
>
>One way to test different stoves is to use the Stoves Camp and have people
>operate stoves they know well under test conditions. I have often asked for
>a similar (what is in fact a) 'competition' in the cooking oil press field
>where one finds many different models designed to extract sunflower oil. It
>takes about 4 months full time for a person to learn how to run an oil press
>properly. I have observed that operating an oil press is similar in many
>ways to operating a stove. Almost everything is a variable and a skilfull
>operator always gets better performance by optimizing things for the
>conditions of the test.
>
>What you are proposing is a valuable exercise. I feel that a well-run
>Mandaleo stove is pretty efficient when it is hot, certainly far more
>efficient that I see in the literature on it. It isn't being run correctly
>in my opinion. Being a simple device, it is all about operator training and
>fuel preparation. Given the huge improvement Christa Roth got when people
>were trained in Mandaleo stove operation it is clear that hardware+the right
>software is the necessary combination.
>
>Paul wrote:
> >I will provide an appropriate Juntos gasifier (most recent innovations).
>
>I think it would be wise for Paul to run the stove for the testing if he is
>available. Let him show us what it can do. I am very interested in the
>emissions level of a well run gasifier. It could point out new directions
>for our own research.
>
>Many thanks
>Crispin

From adkarve at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN Fri Apr 30 22:03:12 2004
From: adkarve at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN (adkarve)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:03 2004
Subject: Briquette CD
Message-ID: <SAT.1.MAY.2004.073312.0530.ADKARVE@PN2.VSNL.NET.IN>

Dear Stovers,
A lot of people in the USA have expressed the wish to obtain the CD on the
charcoal making process. The CD itself is quite cheap but the courier
charges come to roughly US$25. Also the money transfer charges from the US
to India are very high, coming to almost US$ 20. Therefore, the recipient in
the US would have to pay almost US$50 for the CD. To avoid this hassle and
the expenses, I am willing to send one CD to somebody who volunteers to copy
it and send it to others within the US. All our Institute wants is US$ 2.5
per CD which the volunteer pays to us. He may charge to the recipients the
local US courier charges, packaging and the cost of the CD. The CD was shown
in the Seattle conference on Feb.1, 2004 , at the Faculty of Engineering,
University of Colorado, Fort Collins and also at National Renewable Energy
Laboratory, Denver . One CD was handed over as a gift to one of these three.
In case such a copy exists anywhere, or somebody has a copy in the memory of
his computer, I authorise the owner to copy it and send it to the persons in
USA, who have requested the CD from us.
Yours
A.D.Karve
----- Original Message -----
From: Hank or Margaret <w.burroughs@verizon.net>
To: adkarve <adkarve@PN2.VSNL.NET.IN>; <STOVES@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2004 10:22 PM
Subject: Briquette CD

From adkarve at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN Fri Apr 30 23:22:07 2004
From: adkarve at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN (adkarve)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:03 2004
Subject: cost of charring kiln
Message-ID: <SAT.1.MAY.2004.085207.0530.ADKARVE@PN2.VSNL.NET.IN>

Dear Hank,
the cost of shipping is not included in the cost of the system. Each kiln
costs about US$120. One requires 21 barrels with each kiln. One loads at a
time 7 barrels into the kiln, but one needs 21 barrels so that while one set
is being heated, another set, that has been taken out of the kiln get cooled
and the third set is loaded with trash and kept ready for the next load.
This allows the workers to work without losing any time (and heat) between
consecutive batches. The barrels cost in India about US$ 10 each. Therefore
one kiln and a set of 21 barrels would together cost US$330. Because of
fluctuating rates of conversion of one currencyt into another, the rounded
off figure for 20 such units was stated by me as US$8000, but it would be
nearer US$7000. It must however be mentioned that the cost of steel as well
as the cost of fabrication are much lower in India than elsewhere in the
world. Our kilns deliver only 50 kg char per day per kiln. If the raw
material is available at one spot, one can fabricate a larger unit, even
upto 50 tonnes per day capacity.
A lot of people have asked for our CD. I am trying to find out a volunteer
in the US who would receive our CD, make copies and send them to others in
US.
Yours
A.D.Karve
----- Original Message -----
From: Hank or Margaret <w.burroughs@verizon.net>
To: adkarve <adkarve@PN2.VSNL.NET.IN>
Sent: Friday, April 30, 2004 6:35 AM
Subject: Re: [STOVES] Briquette CD

> Thanks for the additional information. Please consider sending the CD to:
>
> Hank Burroughs
> 6325 Joseph Street SE
> Salem, OR, 97301
>
> That is my summer address where I'll be after June 1st. If you think the
CD
> could get here before May 15th, try this address:
>
> Hank Burroughs
> POB 2235
> Helendale, CA 92342
>
> I have not had any experience with international shipping so have no idea
> about the cost or time involved. You mentioned your system costs about
> $8000. Does that include shipping? How long would it take to get to one
of
> the above address?
>
> Thanks for your understanding.
>
> Hank Burroughs
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "adkarve" <adkarve@PN2.VSNL.NET.IN>
> To: <STOVES@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2004 6:55 PM
> Subject: Re: [STOVES] Briquette CD
>
>
> > Dear Hank,
> > I was recently in the US and realised that the price of domestic fuel in
> the
> > form of cut wood or barbecue charcoal was much higher than in India.
> > Therefore, I feel that the amount earned by the char makers in the US
> would
> > also be proportionately higher. In the 19th and the 20th century,
factory
> > made items used to be cheaper than the corresponding products made
> manually
> > by artisans. But nowadays, the high transport costs, high corporate
> > salaries and the cost of maintaining the distributer network, often work
> > against factory made items. The local small scale manufacturers can sell
> > directly to the endconsumers, without having to go through the chain of
> > distributers. We are operating a number of small businesses on these
> lines,
> > giving the entrepreneurs an income equivalent to highly paid executives
in
> a
> > city. The idea is Gandhian ( the Mahatma and not the family of
politicians
> > having the same family name) and it works, at least in India.
> > Please let me know the address to which the CD is to be sent. I shall
> then
> > inquire with a courier company, how much they would charge for
delivering
> > the CD to that address. I shall then let you know the amount to be paid
> to
> > us. When we get the money, we shall send the CD.
> > Yours
> > A.D.Karve
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Hank or Margaret <w.burroughs@verizon.net>
> > To: adkarve <adkarve@PN2.VSNL.NET.IN>; <STOVES@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
> > Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2004 10:22 PM
> > Subject: Briquette CD
> >
> >
> > > How do we get one of these CDs? Sounds like an interesting project
but
> > the
> > > income is probably too low for use in the United States. Still, I
> wonder
> > > how some thing like this might work in a logged area that is slated
for
> > > slash burning. Maybe a valuable product could be made instead of a
lot
> of
> > > smoke!!
> > >
> > > Hank in the high desert
> > >
> > > SNIP-----
> > >
> > > > In case you wish to know more about this process, we can send you a
> > video
> > > CD
> > > > showing the entire process step by step. The CD costs US$2.5.
Postage
> > and
> > > > packing are extra.
> > > > Yours
> > > > Dr.A.D.Karve, President,
> > > > Appropriate Rural Technology Institute,
> > > > Pune, India.
> > >
> > >
>
>

BioEnergy Lists: Improved Biomass Cooking Stoves

April 2004 Biomass Cooking Stoves Archive